In a barrel that has been shot, is it necessary to clean it to the steel (remove all copper fouling) before applying the DBC?

YES

Thanks

You're not thinking of........

Relax. It's not going to see the type of weather that'll warrant it. I have a couple of others, on the other hand, that do.

But if it was/is a .270?

Nobody cares what happens to a .270....

Rev, it's gotta be REAL clean for optimal DBC application, not just sorta clean, as in no blue patches. You need to get rid of carbon, too, cleaning it down to bare steel.

I use my Hawkeye borescope to make sure.

Just follow the "destructions"...

DF

Dat was mean...

Funny....

but mean...

DF

You left the door wide open on that one, and being the gentleman I am, will not walk through it.

What the heck....

I can only imagine the hatred comes from deep down emotional void from never owning and properly using a 270, you know, kind of like a virgin talking about sex.

I will be out banging away with my 375 H&H tomorrow after my first try with DBC. I scrubbed the living chitt out of that barrel before applying. Well beyond what DBC suggests just to be sure. We shall see as this piece is a fouler with the TSX I am loading.

I will be out banging away with my 375, 9.3x64 and hopefully my 300 H&H on Friday all DBC'd.

.....aren't most of them in museum's anyway.....

I did not have any luck with this product, then again, it's probably "operator error" on my part..

Details, Jorge...

DF

I've used it in several rifle, prob 10-12, and have definitely seen a difference. First time you clean it after applying isn't a good indicator, but after that there is a huge improvement in amount of fouling.

Used several products to clean, to include Wipeout (with accelerator), Montana Extreme etc to where there was zero blue or any other color on the very tight patches. I applied as advertised on a 300 Weatherby, two pre-64 70s (notorious foulers) with no appreciable difference.

Odd. I saw considerable difference on several rifles, each with markedly less fouling and considerably easier to clean afterward. On muzzleloaders, I find it to be a God-send.

I've been impressed with DBC.

I treat all my barrels. The premium ones just about don't copper foul, just some carbon that goes away with TM or Eliiminator soaks. The factory barrels don't foul as bad, don't need cleaning as often.

Never underestimate the value of a borescope to see what's actually going on.

DF

laughing.

Betcha they crawled back inside when you were typing that.

Like I said guys, probably operator error on my part

Find someone with a Hawkeye.

Could answer lots of questions.

DF

Too hard and besides, they all still shoot very well, fouling and all. All I can tell you is I was meticulous in following the instructions and there was absolutely zero evidence of copper, carbon or powder fouling prior to application. My educated guess is Mod 70 barrels are rough to begin with, and no product will fill all the nook and cranies. On the other hand, I have a Weatherby Accumark with a Krieger that I've never treated, and those patches come out clean after only one or two passes.

Those premium barrels are easier to clean, don't need DBC as mush as the rougher ones. I treat my premiums anyway. Can't hurt and seems to help.

With those high performance rounds, throat erosion can rough up the bore and it's impossible to clean it "down to the steel".

Without a Hawkeye, you really don't know.

DF

The factory barrel on my M70 375 H&H was amazingly rough, with the grooves loaded with "chatter". This I found while prepping the barrel for DBC. Once I saw how rough the barrel was I fire lapped it with my old NECO kit, then cleaned fully and applied DBC.

More likely a gravel road barrel than operator error.

I've treated several very rough factory barrels with DBC, and it helped every one considerably.

I'm wondering if humidity might have an effect on how well it takes. The last step of de-greasing might not help much if the barrel immediately gets somewhat moist inside.

Krieger Krieger, or Criterion "Krieger"?

Maybe heat the barrel a good bit with a hair dryer to eliminate the possibility?

That is actually the only reason I'm interested in it. I just read your article about weatherproofing in SA and since my environment is often a lot like Phil Shoemaker's I thought it might be a good idea. On the other hand, it isn't often I don't have a cleaning kit close by, so it might be a moot point. Gun Shield, on the other hand, might be worth applying to the steel hidden in the stock.

Always a possibility, especially with high round count, high performance rounds.

Borescope.

DF

No idea, all I can tell you is it shoots bugholes (like every other Weatherby) and it cleans easier than any rifle I own, with the possible exception of my Shiloh-Sharps.

Doug from DBC, helped me with a 338 Win mag that fouled after the treatmetn. Factory tube.

I simply had to shoot it and then clean and retreate a few times and it pretty much cleared up most of the fouling except the last inch or two would still foul.
WAY better than it ever was.

Being it shot groups as small as in the .2/.3s at times for 3 shot TSX groups, we didn't want to dump the barrel....

I've done that as well. Treated my 300 H&H and 338s twice. I have thought about sending the rifles to them though.

Asking out of ignorance -

Is this stuff just to reduce fouling, or does it have other benefits? I see weatherproofing mentioned a couple times, does it help prevent rust in carbon steel barrels?

Have any of you guys tried DBC in a muzzle loader? If so, how did it work out for you? Thanks.

There was a recent thread on that.

May find it on Search.

DF

From what I have read, it coats the bore with a micro particle ceramic material, cured by firing rounds.

The company does make protective coating products, not sure DBC does more than stated above.

DF

Yondering,

DBC works by creating a very thin layer of clear ceramic in the bore, which not only reduces fouling considerably but also protects CM from rusting. DBC will, however, erode in the throat area along with the steel, but reapplying works well, especially after a few fire-lapping bullets to smooth the throat.

Thanks, John.

I wasn't sure about rust protection with CM steel.

It does make sense.

DF

Their Gun Shield is great for rust-protecting blued CM. It doesn't last forever--depending on conditions and use, another coat should be applied after a year or two--but it's completely invisible, so doesn't change the appearance at all. It creates an even thinner layer, and only requires degreasing and some warming-up after application.

But it also results in a slick surface. It also works great on knife blades, which clean up almost instantly after field-dressing, and even on the line-guides on fishing rods used in sub-freezing weather, vastly reducing ice build-up. Neat stuff.

A borescope certainly tells you exactly what is going on.

The factory barrel on my 375 and Lothar barrel on my 9.3x64 both have chatter marks. I am not going to resort to lapping until I get a bunch more bullets down the bore.

I have had some fantastic results with bore coating and some not so spectacular.

Hey, it's cheap and if it does zero at least we have learned something, on our own... Supposed to go out today with the 375 H&H but it will be tomorrow along with the 416 Remington M70.

Thanks guys, sounds like I better try some.

Great stuff. It "cured" my copper-fouling woes in my M70 270 WSM, after I bitched about copper-fouling here on the 'Fire about 10 years ago and Mule Deer et al. schooled me on DBC. This rifle is extremely accurate (1/2 MOA out to 400 yards, consistently) and stays that way now, after I applied it according to instructions. I had to clean the schitt out of it first, though... took forever to get the fouling out!!!

Haven't done it to very many rifles since, but I don't run through rifles like a true Rifle Looney... Nevertheless, I applied it to my Caprivi 375 straight out of the box when I bought it last June, 'cause I figgered I didn't have time to fix it if it turned out to be a quick-fouling rifle, as I had to have it ready to hunt DG in August. I put 500+ rounds through it in less than 2 months thereafter and fouling was never an issue. I have put as many as 60 rounds in a session through that rifle before cleaning it, with no significant degradation in accuracy and zero blue patches.

JB, thanks for the heads-up on Gun Shield. I'm gonna try that next.

It's good stuff too.

One other thing I should note about DBC is that some people have had problems with getting it to work right because they evidently feel anything pushed through a barrel with a cleaning rod should be TIGHT. As a result, when they think they're installing DBC they're actually pushing most of it out the bore. Instead whatever's used to slop the stuff inside, whether a patch or mop or whatever, should fit rather loosely, in order to leave a substantial layer.

First encountered the tight-patch syndrome around 30 years ago, when the gun columnist for a major magazine stayed with me to shoot gophers and rockchucks for a few days. He decided to clean his rifle at the end of the first day, but was pushing 99.9% of the solvent out of the bore with the TIGHT patch on his cleaning rod. There's a gunsmith in eastern Montana who feels DBC doesn't work because of the same syndrome.

Yep.

I use a slot tip with a half patch, so it soaks up a lot of product and slides easily thru the bore, leaving a good coating. I reapeat this a number of times per instructions then let it dry.

It'll stay like that until you're ready to shoot, even weeks. Shooting fire cures DBC in the bore.

I've found that after several shoot/clean cycles performance improves, I see less and less fouling.

On smooth barrels it about eliminates copper fouling, I just soak and remove carbon. On rougher barrels, copper fouling is much less, clean up easier and faster.

These nuances are quite evident thru the borescope. If you ever get one, you'll never want to be without one. I use mine all the time. Some of the best money I've spent.

DF

100% agree

I once had a JC Higgins FN Mauser in .270. Needed a stock so I found a stock I liked and rebarreled it to 7x57. It's a good rifle now.

Paul B.

Well I went out with the 375 H&H yesterday for the "firing" phase of the treatment. It took about as many patches of Sweet's to clean the bore as it did previously. There is no question that the bore was spotless when treated. I thought I read of a bad batch of DBC going out. My bottle was a few years old. Should I buy fresh and try again?

Ed,

It's typical for the bore to be fouled just about as much after the first firing phase, because the coating isn't cured until several shots are fired. You'll usually see considerable improvement after the next shooting session, but as some have mentioned, a few bores need more than one treatment.

The first cleaning after the 10 or so curing shots is always filthy. After that, start shooting and clean rarely.

I have also long suspected that because the ceramic particulate is suspended in a glue carrier, until the glue/ceramic is polished and cured by rounds down the bore, it likely tends to collect fouling faster than pre-treatment.

Jordan,

Yep, I've seen that in some barrels. However, others haven't been fouled nearly as much after the curing session, but fouling was reduced just as much in those as most others.

Yep - and I remember asking this when I first started using it as well (and think John game me the same reply, a few years back). First cleaning makes it look like no change/improvement or even worse, but then after that it is drastically improved. Have yet to have to treat a second time personally on about a dozen rifles, but none were high round count or extreme foulers prior to treatment.

Thanks gents. Another 20 rounds loaded and another trip out next week planned. Interestingly, when I took the 375 out I also took the 416 Rem M70 out, both 6 digit G series New Haven rifles and it is clearly obvious (loupe and light at the muzzle and cleaning effort) that the 416 is not a fouler at all. Near zero "chatter" in the grooves whilst the 375 was loaded though less so since fire lapping. The 416 being carbon steel whilst the 375 being stainless.

IIRC Doug said the more fouling issues started around 338 and went up... the ones harder to get to nothing more or less and may never get to that point.... FWIW

I have had a couple rifles that required a couple of follow up applications but then they were good 2 go.

I am a fan of Dyna-Tek Bore Coat. I have used it on over a dozen rifles that I shoot with some regularity, with good results. I have found no down-side to this product. I have seen noticeable improvement in reduced fouling in brand-new rifles as well as well-pitted bores over one hundred years old.

I just discussed my thoughts on getting the best results with DBC on another thread regarding a new rifle. That posting turned into an essay on DBC, so I will expand on that here in a thread actually discussing Dyna-Tek Bore Coat.

I just purchased a new Bergara B14 rifle in 6.5 Creedmore. The borescope revealed an exceptionally smooth leade/throat area where the chamber transitions to the rifling. Our own MuleDeer has opined that this is the primary area of a new rifle barrel that may actually benefit from some breaking-in.

The chambering reamer may often leave significant tool marks and tiny burrs, in this transition area. Often on factory rifles the chamber is not absolutely perfectly aligned with the center of the bore. The chamber may be ever so slightly offset, or it may be at a very slight angle to the bore. In the past these problems were best avoided by using custom barrels from quality makers.

The borescope reveals these problems. It also is the only way I have found to know for sure when a barrel is absolutely clean, which is seldom really necessary, except when preparing to apply the DBC treatment.

I believe that fairly good results, at least noticeable improvement, can be obtained with DBC even if the barrel is not completely free of all the copper and the very hard, old, thin carbon layer. But the very best results will be obtained with a completely clean, bright, shiny bore achieved with generous use of JB Bore Paste on a large patch wrapped around an undersized bore brush (many, many strokes) alternated with a good copper remover, like KG-12 and the Montana X-Treme products. Some people prefer the electrical Foul-Out process, which is a viable alternative. I have no personal experience with the Foul-Out process.

Some of the best products are safe to use for overnight soakings with no barrel damage, which reduces the workload considerably if you are not in a hurry. Wipe-Out, Patch-Out, and the Montana X-Treme products are safe. Some other products can etch or pit the bore if left in overnight, so read the fine print on the labels when in doubt.

A badly pitted bore can never be made completely clean and patches will come out dark forever due to the old grime down in the pits below the surface. But the grime down in the pits doesn't really matter. If the copper and carbon are removed from the upper surface, where the bullet actually rides, and microscopic imperfections are smoothed out, the DBC will do its job. The surface is smoother and copper fouling is reduced from then on.

I consider the pitted bore to be sort of "sealed" now by the DBC. As in a clean bore, carbon will still accumulate, but very little copper. Badly pitted bores almost always shoot better with a good bit of carbon fouling than they do right after a good cleaning. It frequently takes a dozen shots or more to get the pitted barrel back to its accuracy potential, which is often surprisingly good, in spite of how bad the bore may look. From then on I do very little cleaning of that pitted bore.

Back to the cleaning of a good bore, with a normal accumulation of copper. The initial one third of the overall cleaning effort gets out two thirds of the copper. Sometimes the removal of the last twenty percent takes as much work as it took to remove the first eighty percent. Even after it is difficult to get any blue on the patch there can still be traces of copper in the bore.

Without the availability of a borescope, I can only advise that you keep cleaning for a while longer even after you are sure the bore is copper-free.

And now back to my new rifle:


I got the B14 Timber, 6.5 Creedmore, walnut-stocked with cheekpiece. Once it arrived at my home I scrubbed the factory-supplied traces of copper (from the proof load and any additional test rounds that the factory used) out of the barrel with JB Paste until the bore shined and then applied the Dyna Bore Coat.

Yesterday I fired the ten curing rounds and got the scope adjusted to near a 100 yard zero at the same time. As with past rifles, the curing rounds don't produce a very good group.

Today I cleaned the barrel by first removing the over-night soak of Wipe-Out foam, then going after the traces of copper with KG-12 and Montana X-Treme. The borescope told me when the last trace of copper was gone.

The bright shine in the bore produced by the JB Paste is now replaced by a somewhat darker, duller appearance that is characteristic of a DBC treated bore.

In my opinion, this thorough cleaning of the bore (but without abrasives) after the initial 8-10 curing shots is important to help get a consistent coating spread over the entire surface of the bore.

The initial curing shot always leaves some copper fouling, as does each subsequent curing shot. It is likely that this copper fouling will block those areas covered by the copper from developing complete coverage of the cured ceramic layer that we desire.

It is common experience that the first bore cleaning after the curing shots shows almost no reduction in cleaning effort required, or reduction in fouling. But then there is a very significant reduction in fouling for the next two or three cleanings and then fouling stabilizes at the new-normal state of reduced bore fouling compared to the pre-treatment level. From that point on we enjoy the benefit of the product: reduced fouling and easier cleaning, less often.

I believe this shows that curing of the DBC treatment is still continuing to take place, producing an even coating to the entire surface of the bore, for the first few dozen rounds fired through the bore, possibly aided by the next two or three cleanings of the bore. High temperature and pressure is what is doing the "curing".

I suspect that any copper fouling from the initial curing shots that is not removed during the first cleaning after initial curing may result in incomplete coverage of the ceramic coating within the bore.

This may be the cause for some few first-time DBC users concluding that the treatment didn't work very well for their rifle, or why an occasional rifle may need a follow-up treatment to get satisfactory results. I have yet to feel the need for a second treatment on any of my rifles, though the end result does seem to vary some from rifle to rifle. I have yet to see a rifle that didn't improve from the application of DBC.

For those reasons I try to do a very good cleaning of the barrel for the first couple of cleanings after treating with DBC, and I have always gotten good results.

I did not hesitate to treat this brand new Bergara barrel because close inspection with the borescope showed a high level of finish quality. No flaws or obvious tool marks were found and the leade area was very clean and smooth. A very tight patch run down the barrel showed no change in drag from end-to-end, indicating consistent dimension.

Some folks advocate breaking in a barrel before applying the DBC. In the past I have waited until after the first few dozen shots and a few good cleanings before applying the DBC. This is the first factory-virgin barrel I have treated, for the reasons stated. Whether it really makes any difference, I don't know.

This has been my experience with DBC to this point. I am sure others have more experience than I do, and of course, everyone's mileage may vary. Wishing good results to all.

In my heavy competition 6.5x47, I passed 2500 rounds last month. I'd put enough rounds to break in the barrel then discovered DBC about 6 years back. I cleaned it down to the bare steel and treated it. I was out final testing IMR 4451 with 140 Berger Hybrids. Two 1010 yd groups measuring 3.65". The barrel hadn't been cleaned since the bare steel cleaning.

IMO, the stuff works.

Nifty - thanks for the observations. I believe what you have described happened to me with one of my rifles I treated with DBC. I shot about 20 shots after applying and did not clean the barrel afterwards. I put it away for a few months, not thinking anything about it. I pulled it out the other day after I got a borescope for Christmas, and lo and behold - I had rust in the barrel! I have been fighting a moisture issue in my gun room that I recently solved (big de-humidifier), but didn't expect the bore to rust like it did, especially since I treated it with DBC. Your description make sense, as I probably shot too many curing shots without cleaning, thus not completely curing the DBC in spots. Thankfully, the rust wasn't too bad, but it did lightly pit the barrel in some spots. I have since used JB paste again to smooth out the pits and re-applied the DBC. I haven't shot it yet, but when I do, it won't be very many before I clean it again.

GunLooney88,

Thanks for sharing your experience. Congratulations on getting a borescope. The borescope provides a view into a whole other world. Without it you may have never known what was going on in your barrel.

My advice for any loony who doesn't yet have a borescope, is to forego one more unnecessary gun purchase, and get a borescope instead. Do it now, before your next impulsive gun purchase once again depletes your rat-hole money.

Or look into that over-crowded gun safe and pick a gun you no longer care about and sell or trade it into a borescope.



GSSP,

Incredible shooting. It wasn't that many years ago when those groups would have broken the world record. Thanks for sharing your experience with that high of a round count.

I treated my 221 Rem with DBC in 2008. I have never retreated since. Now, with over 1,300 rounds down the barrel since the DBC treatment 8 years ago I have seen no decrease in the effectiveness of the treatment or in the accuracy of the barrel.

After reading your post I gave the barrel a good inspection and saw just traces of copper. The barrel hasn't been cleaned in over one hundred rounds. It is soaking now with WipeOut. Later today it should clean up nicely with just a few patches.

I am looking forward to working with IMR-4451. I haven't gotten my hands on it yet. Best wishes.

I got a little Gun Shield on the bell of a gloss scope. Is there anything that will cut the epoxy to remive it without taking the finish off the scope too? It's not the end of the world, but I'd like to get it off if I can.

Thanks

OK I am about ready to try this for the first time and I have a few questions.
So Ive spent considerable time cleaning the rifle I want to try DBC on as it is a notable copper fouler. I do not have a bore scope but have spent much time making sure as best I can that bore is clean. It presently is oiled up with Kroil and I will do one more cleaning before I go to the acetone/alcohol step, and then apply the DBC.
I see it says to let DBC "dry" before shooting for at least 4 hours....is it ok to leave in bore for Days before I shoot it??
For first shooting is 10 rounds about right?
I see where first cleaning can show much "junk" and is to be expected.
Is there any cleaners/copper removers I should NOT use?
Going forward, just wondering if any cleaning products can remove or damage DBC??
Thanks for the help.

It's fine to leave DBC in the bore before shooting. I've left it for a couple of months or more.

10 rounds is plenty for curing. I usually shoot half a dozen.

Don't use an abrasive cleaner afterward, such as JB Compound. Any solvent is fine.

The cleaning to bare steel raises questions for me. Even Hoppes#9 must leave a bit of hydrocarbon residue in the steel. Will rubbing alcohol completely evaporate, or is a final acetone wash needed to get the barrel truly clean?

Acetone is probably more effective, but I've done a number of barrels degreased with rubbing alcohol and had no problems. But I also live in a very dry part of the country.

Gun Scrubber works really well for leaving a bare metal to air surface.

Nick be aware for big foulers especially in stuff over .308, you might have to treat the bore 2-3 times....

Rubbing alcohol is usually about 70% isopropyl, but if there's more than one kind on the shelf you may find a 90% version. I use a bunch of that stuff.

Yeah, I use the 90% solution.

It's a bracing aftershave as well.

Thanks for the help
Its for a Ruger 7x57 of my sons that REALLY copper fouls.
Two more questions....So I got 20 rounds loaded that consist of the same bullet, 2 different powders, and two different primers. I hear not to expect very good accuracy at first, but I want to chrono these loads, 4 loads 5 shots per. Do ya think DBC will effect velocity readings at all especially first 5 shots after application? Or do ya think it will be in "ballpark"?
Secondly about cleaning after initial break-in...wire brush ok? Or should I use nylon?
Whats good for copper fouling afterwards, I have SWEETS and BORE-TECH on hand....I see Montana extreme listed alot?
Thanks again

Anyone know how this does with leading?

Nick,

No brush, just patches and Wipeout

GG,

It works great with reducing leading.

Tagged. May do a couple of my rifles this spring/summer to see how it does.

In reference to chronographing the curing loads, the first shot WILL be goofy and will usually be a couple of inches or more out of the normal group, and the curing series of shots will not group very well. After the first couple of shots I think the recorded velocities will be "ballpark". I wouldn't normally use test loads for curing. I usually use factory loads that I just want to shoot up, or to finish a lot that didn't turn out as good as I had hoped.

It is more fun to shoot the curing shots at a gong. That way you don't see a discouraging group and you can blame a miss on the curing process. Also, I usually fire the curing shots without letting much cooling take place, as it is the heat inside the barrel that is doing the curing process.

As to using bore brushes, I frequently use nylon bore brushes with Patch-Out (non-aerosol Wipe-Out). Bronze brushes will not hurt the DBC coating either, but brushes really aren't necessary. Any non-abrasive solvents or copper-removers are fine. Just don't use JB Bore Cleaner Paste, or Flitz, or that sort of cleaner.

The Montana Xtreme products are excellent and can be left in the barrel overnight. Sweets can only stay in the barrel for a few minutes or it may etch the barrel. Ammonia-base products turn the patch blue in the presence of copper. KG-12 is my favorite copper remover, but it does not turn the patch blue. KG-12 can also stay in the barrel indefinitely since it contains no ammonia.

I verify the progress of the copper removal with my borescope, which also allows me to concentrate my efforts on the portion of the barrel where the copper is, instead of long-stroking the whole barrel.

"Rubbing" alcohol often contains lanolin to deter the drying effects of the alcohol on the skin. Straight isopropal is better for cleaning. Noticed the streaking on glass and discovered upon research, the mfg adding lanolin.

No it's more like a straight guy, thinking what's going to happen in prison. Ha ha

I gave Bore Coat a try last year on a Korean surplus 7.62 X 51 Garand that copper fouled badly. I've had it since the early 1980's. It was horrible for the first cleaning after treatment. I thought I may need to do it again. 2nd cleaning, still black stuff and copper. 3rd cleaning, just normal IMR4895 ash and a little copper. At each cleaning the barrel got smoother until it was like pushing patches through a glass tube.
I jumped on the DB bandwagon! All of my pistols got it, 22 through 45. Only the 7.62 Tokerevs didn't achieve perfection after the first cleaning. They still streaked copper a little, but by 3rd cleaning no copper with surplus ammo.
So I tried BC on a 9.3 X 57 M46 Husky (1929) and an 8 X 57 Husky 640 (1948), my worst copper foulers. I thought the 9.3 would require a 2nd treatment, but it did not. The 8mm seemed a dismal failure at first. It's like a glass tube now. follow on shoot/clean cycles with a little patience pays off. No 2nd treatment required.
A 219 Donaldson Wasp took on the first cleaning as did a 257 Roberts and two AR-15s. Others took several shoot/clean cycles.
My M-14 SA is coated and sitting. I've also got a Husky 1640 coming, and after inspecting the throat and shooting groups for a baseline, it will receive a good cleaning per Muledeer instructions and Borecoat.
Have patience. If the bore is cleaned correctly before application, Borecoat does work.

Anyone running moly or hbn with DBC?

Yes. Moly comes out very easily if you decide to take it out.

Thanks Jordan.