John,
I was surprised to read that the following on the Accurate Shooter Forum:



I'm more than a little surprised that Lapua(or the American Contingent at least) wants to, in essence, reengineer this cartridge with a Small Rifle Primer. Frankly it amazes me they would even consider it. Especially given Lapua brass is almost a lock to be the hardest and strongest case of anything on the market. Difficult reading pressure from case head marks especially given relative hardness rates. Rifles chambered and designed around the current Large Rifle Primer 6.5 Creedmoor would likely require bushing the firing pin hole and a supported .0625" BR diameter firing pin... It would also seem to be an open invitation for some "hand loaders" to push the pressure potential on already reasonably stiff maximum pressures of 62,000 psi SAAMI and essentially the same thing CIP at 62,150 into dangerous territory. Greg Tannel at Gre-Tan mentions avoiding the tendency to push one of his bushed firing pin holes and properly supported firing pins past reasonable pressures. Mentioning how easy it is with this modification, for Small Rifle Primers, to lead to 65,-70,000 PSI and failure without the classic pressure signs.

At the same time I cannot help but think of Hornady's design specifically included the AR-10/SR-25 into the design parameters for this cartridge. With that in mind a small rifle primered 6.5 Creedmoor Case looks like a liability nightmare. I may be seeing dragons where none exist, however, I honestly do not see the upside of what would essentially be a bastard case amongst everything else on the market. It could so easily lead to the ASSUMPTION that components were going to perform similarly and wind up with a real problem especially on a chambering/cartridge tailored both for bolt and gas guns...

Thoughts?

Regards, Matt Garrett.
Chesapeake, Virginia.

I'm not Mule Deer, but I'll point out that Lapua has made small primer .308 cases for a while at the bequest of match shooters and it doesn't seem to bother anyone. Those cases have the potential of being used in all manner of rifles. I'd imagine their thinking is along the same lines on a small rifle creedmoor case, it's more geared toward match shooters. I don't see a problem with a modification that makes a case stronger than the original. Most know that trying to read pressure from the case head isn't reliable so I don't see the argument that the new case won't show pressure signs as compelling.

A lot of guys on this site have been loading the 6 Creed 200-300 fps beyond pressure tested 243 loads, obviously above 70,000psi.
Most have claimed great case life and I believe them, but....

Yeah, I think this is a way to eek another 100 fps for LR and match shooters and is part of an "efficiency" claim that isnt there along with substantiated accuracy/consistency.

Yep, rifle loonies always have to try SOMETHING different....

Pardon my ignorance, but why would it be necessary to bush the firing pin hole just because the cases were made for small rifle primers? Various switch-barrel guns have been working with one firing pin for years.

I also have to take issue with the notion that a manufacturer would be liable for some goober's assumption that the small primer is a license to go batschit-crazy with pressures. That's similar to saying that Cadillac, by making a 600hp motor is suggesting that its okay for someone to drive at 200mph.

Lastly, I don't know a great deal about "gas guns", but from my reading it seems they are pretty good about letting you know when you're getting too frisky with your loads.

Crap, I was just thinking I had settled on doing a 6.5 Creed chamber instead of a 6.5x47, with the reason being that Lapua is finally making brass for it, and it uses a LR primer, which I trust a little more in the deep cold that I often shoot and hunt in.

I guess I'm back to the drawing board.

Most all the tactical guys are running most of the cartridges with Lapua brass up to 70k psi already, with seemingly no ill effects.

They have to be pushing the pressures, or they could not get the high velocities that they report.

It doesn't really seem like anyone is having any problems from doing it.

Full speed ahead. I usually chuckle on the sideline. Sounds like a GRAND IDEA to me...

I'd real interested what Dave Tooley had to say...

Regards, Matt.

The 260 works great too

I'm working with 2.880" of mag latitude, which is a bit shy of doing the .260/.260AI and 140's justice...

Jordan,
You could try Prime Ammo in 6.5 creed. Manufactured by RUAG so it's Norma brass.

Prime ammo is a good deal. They sell direct, online. Excellent Norma brass and good service. They even called me on the phone a week or so after the order to see how I liked their ammo.

http://www.primeammo.com/6-5mm-creedmoor-hpbt-130gr.html,

The link shows temporarily out-of-stock but I bet they are getting more soon. They are dedicated to growing their company.

It's a non-starter for us Canucks, since they can't/won't ship outside of the US.

I was in a Quebec caribou camp with Layne Simpson several years ago and he was STILL seriously pissed about a misfire on a truly wonderful whitetail the year before.

If I remember correctly, somebody (maybe Remington or Norma) made .308 brass with a small primer pocket and he was getting stellar accuracy with the brass.

THEN, he was hunting whitetail deer one very cold morning and he experienced the worst thing possible for a handloader ... a total misfire ... CLICK!!!

And, of course, the buck ran away, never again to be seen by human eyes.

At a later date, Layne froze some ammo and experienced the same thing at the rifle range. Something about small primers, relatively large cases, freezing temps and dammit misfires.

Frankly, Layne is a very decent handloader, truly an astute hunter and I suspect he was onto something.

Because of this, I would not personally trust a small primer to ignite a 6.5 Creed in a hunting load ... period.

Just my thoughts and thoughts not requested by a living soul.

kd

Norma brass may not be as durable as Lapua but it is adequately precise. It'll be a while before you see the Lapua headstamped stuff and who knows what the primer size will be? If it's small, I'll stick w Norma. If it's large, I'll give it a go.

Guys will be going with very hot loads in the CM with small primers and Lapua brass. Same thing that is done with the 6.5x47.

The Hornady stuff seems to shoot well in my experience! I don't 'need' Lapua brass.

The Hornady brass being made (whether by them or somebody else) a year or so after the cartridge appeared in 2007 was excellent. Bought a few boxes of factory ammo with my first Creedmoor, a Hawkeye with a 26" barrel, and the ammo not only shot very well but the fired brass was VERY consistent.

Dunno if that's still true. Bought a bag early this year for my present Creedmoor, an RAR Predator, but haven't tried it yet.

If it wasn't a reportable disease process, it wouldn't have or need a name...

DF

Some people get really confused and don't know where match shooting stops and hunting begins. Why anyone would trust small primers for hunting is beyond me.

Personally I'd never trust them and couldn't be bothered. I won't be buying any Lapua brass for the 6.5 Creed.

Not sure if I remember exactly how this went with Lapua and 308 brass. They had or have 308 Palma (small primer) and 308 Winchester (large primer). There would be a large pool to work from with the 308 shooters. Probably not so much with the 6.5 Creedmoor.

I have a pretty good-shooting 6.5 that will shoot .25-.3 MOA for five shots when conditions are good, and easily averages .4 or so with its best loads. I can't tell any difference between Hornady and Lapua brass as far as accuracy. Dropping the charge .5 gr in the Lapua gives identical velocityand POI. Everyone says the Lapua brass will last way longer, but I can't verify that yet.

I made mine from .22-250 Lapua brass, necked up and fireformed. It comes up a bit short of OAL, but it isn't an issue.

Exactly this. No more, no less. Hot loads are the reasoning.

For those interested, I just checked 10 of the recent batch of Hornady Creedmoor brass I purchased a few months ago. The necks ALL varied less than .001" in thickness, which is excellent. The lightest case weighed 151.0 grains and the heaviest 152.6, with a standard deviation of .53, also very good. This is comparable to the consistency of Lapua brass, and I might have to buy some more!

I've known that for 30 years....most guys I've mentioned that to won't believe it, so I quit talking about it. They can find out on their own.

The demographic this, and the Palma 308 brass, is marketed to really doesnt give a damn about what cold weather hunters need. For them, there are plenty of large primer options.

Not all matches are shot in the balmy southern states...

Agreed...but its quite obvious that this has not been an issue in these circumstances or the demand wouldnt be there.

fwiw,
They are making the 6.5 Creedmoor into a MODERN .45-70 Government...

You'll have to check your bolt, firing pin, and ammunition before you find out if it is safe to shoot. Granted it took a 130 years to for the 45-70 to develop the same necessity for having three separate sections in most reloading manuals. It is kind of ironic that Hornady attempted to fix THAT problem with the .450 Marlin.

Who would have thought their run away hit would have been shot in the foot by progress...

Wonder if we'll see a belted Creedmoor... This is getting funny.

Full speed ahead...

Regards, Matt.

In the meantime I'll just keep using inferior brass....

That 6mm Creedmoor just seems like a fun and easy round. No flies on the 6.5mm version either, but the 6mm looks like a rather simple alternative to the 6XC.

I don't really understand this comparison at all. The Creedmoor and the introduction of Lapua brass w/ small primer pockets is nothing like the .45-70 Gov. There are not going to be three sections in any loading manual.

I get the argument about the small primer potentially being a negative for a cold weather hunting cartridge. But the Creedmoor itself is pretty standardized. Also, if you don't like the small primer the only thing you need to do is not use the Lapua brass. It's really easy to get Hornady and Nosler in the standard config. Or you could take Lapua 308 w/ large pocket and reform it if you must have Lapua.

This is the cartridge I have by far my most experience with. I'm more often on the CM forum than here. There is a long standing thread about converting Lapua brass that is very informative. Easy process. What a lot of guys were doing was purposely selecting the 308 Palma for the parent cartridge, I'm guessing that those are the same guys that put the bug in Lapua's bonnet enough that they started making this brass in the first place...and prior to this the long standing belief was Lapua would NEVER make Creedmoor brass.

Most of the load workups are near identical to the large primer versions. Lots of guys find little difference in performance often difficult to even differentiate SD/ES. There will not need to be a separate section in the loading manual for this cartridge.

Just another offering. Perhaps more useful in a specific application but hardly going to be the death nail of the Creedmoor.

fwiw,
It does not exactly amaze me that you don't follow...

In short the loads that might GO for SRP Lapua Brass will need to be matched to either SFP Bolts or middle of the road Bolts like BAT at .070". If you don't follow that I'm not wasting any further bread crumbs on you... To be honest I am past caring. Small Rifle Primers and pistol powder is likely the future of the CM anyway for anyone who can't read sign... You girls will be to 3500 fps with 140s before you know it. Or you'll be reading braille. Either way you have other things on or maybe through your mind. Good luck..

Familiar with forming brass. Prefer the .22-250 Lapua route but whatever...

Who said it was the death NELL (NOT NAIL) for the Creedmoor?

Just another offering indeed...

Well now I am definitely not following. But having a good laugh. I know your done trying, and I don't blame you..I'm kinda dumb. Maybe some other charitable soul can learn this noob about getting 3500 FPS with small primers, pistol powder, and special bolts.

Is the special bolt because of the pistol powder or, why exactly? I'm going to go and warn the guys that have been shooting the Palma conversions what a brusin their cruizen for.

I thought I was flying when I got my 140's up to 2900 with RL-17..but if I can get another 600fps with HS-6 or powerpistol I already have a bunch for my nine and believe me when I say I am ALL ears.

Matt,
As you know I used Lapua Palma brass with the small primer for my 6.5 SLR.
Im running it in a early 90s Stolle Teddie.Thats got a nice big fat fireing pin.
This is from before the small fireing pin craze hit.
It goes bang every time.
I ran 22 CHeetahs for decades based on 308 BR brass with the small primer and never recall having any problems either.
Nice old 40x with the sloppy sloppy firing pin and a Stolle Teddy with the big pin as well....
The thing is.
It was and is pretty much always above 40 degress when im usuing it.
I think a 6.5 Creedmore with a small primer is a great idea.
Lapua should get a attaboy.
Heck, I might even build one now for my next 1000 yard rifle.
Anyone who uses small primers on 308 size cases for any kind of serious hunting is a [bleep] retard and should be banned from owning guns....
...How was that Bob?

dave

Dave, I believe you answered my question about the firing pin "issue". Thanks.

Yeah, but with good brass, you might have hit that little dot instead of missing it three times.

Better luck next time.

Dave,
Follow where YOU are coming from as a shooter and a hand loader. The 6.5 CM was not exactly aimed at that market from the beginning. My initial concern was the combination of shooters who bought a rifle chambered in a cartridge that shot well enough they did not have to reload(to say nothing of hand loaders) and now we are throwing a Small Rifle Primer into the mix... All in all I am past giving a flock at this point and suspect the Darwin Awards will get this point across in a far more expeditious fashion than I can concisely put into words...

Having talked to several who would disagree rather strongly with your comment on the Small Rifle Primers(47 in particular) and large rifle firing pins I suppose you pays your money and takes your chances. I was concerned about the BAT .070" firing pin diameter with the 47, however, Bruce Thom, Mr. Scott, and I think Dave all said the tolerance on the custom BAT largely negated the necessity of the BR Firing pin. I honestly don't know... That said I'll err on the side of caution when listening to that crowd. Granted some might consider it buying Greg Tannel a new pair of shoes, however, I've been impressed with everything I've seen him do... Cheap insurance.

benny,
You have been insulted and clearly you are still not tracking. I would avoid the pistol powder in all seriousness.

John,
I have been patently amazed at what Hornday Ammunition is doing out of the box in my customer's AX MC and AX .308 Rifles chambered 6.5 CM...

As far as the brass initial dimensions have not been the issue. It has been the cases response to repeated loadings. Specifically loose primer pockets. I have more experience with their .338 Lapua brass than I do their 6.5 CM Brass, however, if you look at the AMP settings the dichotomy in hardness between Hornady and Lapua is significant... fwiw.

ScenarShooter,
Gee, a wallet group. Never thought to go down range, cut one out, sign it and bring it back to show what you, GA Precision, and chance can do for THREE SHOTS... WOW. A GA Precision Rifle no less. Just had to rub it in... If I hit the lottery one of these days...

I have had to bush firing pins in several rifles so that small rifle primers could be used at high pressures. That alone is enough to make me want avoid them. I just don't see the point.
The 308 brass Remington made with small primer pockets was brass which was intended to be formed to 22 and 6mm BR. This was a tedious process which resulted in brass which thick and difficult to work with. A person had to want to do it when the PPC was so easy.
One fellow competitor, Nobby Uno, formed brass for his BR from 22-250. This, of course, used large rifle primers. Nobby shot a complete season using small primers in LV and large primers in HV and the difference was barely noticeable (less the .010 moa for the season aggregate). He decided there was no reason to bother with the BR brass.
Generally speaking, I like Lapua bras but I have no problem using something else. In one 6.5x55, the best score I ever shot was using Remington brass (neck turned, mind you).
I find both Norma and Federal to be too soft but both are dimensionally good and I am happy enough to use them. I can't load these as hot as I can Lapua or Winchester but, for hunting rifles, I don't have to. If a particular target rifle requires higher pressures to shoot well, I'll use the tougher brass. Anyway, for whatever reason, Lapua is on a small primer kick. For those who like it, this is fine, for those who don't there are many options. GD

For what it's worth, the last two builds I had done on Remington 700 rifles that were intended to shoot small rifle primers both had to have the pins bushed by Gre-Tan. They cratered primers even with moderate loads. Once they came back from Greg, all was right with the world. One rifle is a 6.5x47L and I deliberated a lot on that chambering versus the Creedmoor. In the end, I chose the Lapua because of the increased flexibility with a 2.82" magazine box, as I wanted to be sure I could touch the lands with any 6.5mm bullet. It's funny though, because I later wound up going with a DBM setup on that rifle and there would have been plenty of room for the Creedmoor to make lands with any bullet available. Components would have been a bit cheaper and factory loads much more plentiful. No complaints regarding the performance of the 6.5x47L though.....

Matt,

I still have 6.5 Creedmoor Hornady brass from my first rifle. The brass was purchased in 2010 and fired a bunch, and the primer pockets are still tight. However, I only used published data, though not just from Hornady but others, especially Ramshot.

This new batch of Hornady brass is a little lighter than the old brass, but not much. The new brass, however, is slightly more consistent than the old. Will have to see if the primer pockets hold up as well.

I have not found the AMP settings always perfect, and as the directions state they're not based on brass hardness but neck thickness.

As for the brass with small-rifle pockets, I guess it's the end of civilization as we know it....:-)

Not a "Hunting" bullet they say. Have you shot large critters with it? What twist are you shooting please?

Would like to try these in my 6 Creed but I have an 8 twist and I'll be tempted to ventilate a mammal with it....

Re: bushed pins, I run a OEM 700 6.5 Lapua, no issues. Action is a late production SS if that matters.

Id expect a pop n fizz....not a CLICK.

CLICKS only happen when the primer isnt whacked with enough force, the primer is defective or contaminated.

A CLICK is an entirely different ignition problem than a hangfire/pop n fut or wide velocity variation across a chronograph.

Maybe click isnt what happened, but thats what youve stated.

Nate,

I know both kududude and Layne. Believe me, neither could hear the primer pffht, but they might be able to hear the click of the firing pin falling...:-)

Gotcha. That makes more clear sense, being some have been subjected to a lot of noise over the years.

Ive heard ignition issues and Ive heard a primer duds.

BIG diff!

Yeah, that doesn't help--but both kududude and Layne are old enough that hearing protection wasn't considered "manly" when they first started shooting. In fact, it only started becoming acceptable after I got out of high school--which was lucky, because that's when I really started shooting a LOT. Consequently I retained most of my hearing. Many shooters even a few years older than I am were half-deaf by 30.

Don't overlook the guys that have never taken the firing pin assemblies out of their bolts either.....

So thats how you can hear those PDs sneaking across No Man's Land....

I have been hearing so many good things about Prime ammo I decided to place an order for some 6.5 CM 130 grain match ammo. Placed my order a few minutes ago and within 15 minutes, I received a call from the CEO, thanking me for my order. We talked on the phone for 10 minutes or so and I was very impressed that he would take time from his schedule to call me.

Interesting Would love to know more specifics on this scenario. Powder used and what primer interest me most.

Expect I will be trying this Lapua 6.5 Creedmoor brass combined with H4350 & CCI 450 primers before long. I will look into testing frozen ammo as well to satisfy curiosity if nothing else.

Had an unforgettable experience roughly 20 years ago on a very cold November morning with a 30-06 H4350 load that still bothers me to this day.

I have not hunted with a 30-06 since. Little if anything to do with that unfortunate experience. I have never hunted in weather as cold as that day since either.

I have no concerns about a small primer in a 47 L, temps get cold in Finland Alan - GSSP has done alot of shooting w/o issue in the cold.

I don't see the CM as being substantially greater in capacity to be an issue with SRP, but I think the SRP by Lapua on CM brass is more a perception/marketing strategy. Controlled tests might prove me wrong and a benefit in accuracy. Time will tell.

I had the same experience. The President of the company called and we talked for a while. I was most impressed.

In a write-up of his 6XC cartridge on David Tubbs' website, Tubbs says:
“A detailed study of large and small rifle primers showed that large rifle primers worked best when the propellant charge exceeds 35 grains as is the case with the 6XC.” Which is why he apparently never consider SR primers for his cartridge, which has slightly less capacity than the 6.5 (or 6mm) Creedmoor.

I haven't run that study down (though must admit have been too busy to try very hard), but I tend to give serious consideration to whatever Tubbs says about rifle accuracy.

I like Lapua bras too, especially in DD.

Just couldn't help myself greydog, sorry.

Huh?

Dang. Huntz is going blind

I'm often wrong, but I don't see how the size of the primer would make a difference here. If the primer fired (not a click) but didn't ignite the powder, sure, I could blame the primer...but when it didn't pop at all?

I do know that many lubricants can become very viscous at low temperatures and could retard the firing pin's fall enough to cause a failure to fire. I know of just such a circumstance that happened last year-- some lube or combination of lubes inside of the bolt congealed in the freezing temps and the rifle went "click" instead of "bang". In the heat of the day, the rifle worked fine. The hunter and guide flushed the bolt with gasoline and successfully completed the hunt. Upon the hunter's return, he was able to replicate the malfunction in the freezer using the lubricant in-question.

I haven't tried the Lapua 6.5 CM brass as yet but will soon. I have never experienced ignition issues with any 6.5x47 but I've not used them in extreme cold.

Haven't been around much lately and see I've missed a interesting thread. Glad it got brought back to the top.
Just some thoughts off the top of my head.

Can't see the Lapua brass/small primers pockets causing any issues using published data or a chronograph in load build up.
If your a magic load builder that can always improve by 100,200, even 300 fps. compared to published data well you are on your own just like always.
At least we have cheap chronographs availble to let you knw where you are rather than trying to read fired cases......not that they can't tell us many things.

I built a Creedmoor back when it first came out and a bunch of the first available brass.
I pushed velocities a bit and did get noticeably loose primer pockets in one or two firings.
I was using a powder,Superformance, data wasn't then published for and a chronograph.
Would of been nice if the primer pockets stayed tight but what can I complain about.
The brass was consistent and I did psh things.

As for a small rifle primer in a case of the Creed's capacity I would never consider it in a hunting situation.
I never had a non fire but have experienced delayed fires using standard primers in cases like the 284 and 270 in very cold temps. Magnum primers never did so.

Guess Small Rifle Magnum primers will be popular

I've always wondered if/how much of a factor oil/grease/grime inside of a trigger/bolt played in cold weather mis-fires.
Is the firing pin able to hit the primer as fast and hard at zero as it does at 50? Or did semi frozen gunk bind it up?

I get that heat energy from powder and primers is diminished in cold weather vs. hot, but if a primer is hit hard enough to go, it should start the powder. If the powder starts, it should push the bullet on down the barrel.

I realize some combinations will do better than others (primer hotness, which is a sketchy subject to begin with, and stick vs. ball powder), especially where POI in cold vs. warm is concerned.

That said, in TN I don't think I've ever hunted below 15deg. Pretty rare we get below that, and if it does, I'm probably staying in bed.

I'm only chiming in because I'm lusting after a Tikka CTR Creed and I've been pondering brass......

Unless someone is saying they experienced a hang-fire situation or a squib load due to the cold, it isn't the primer that was the problem. Either the primer went off or it didn't--they don't really have a halfway point caused by cold.

If the primer did truly ignite, then a small flash hole is not going to hold back the ignition of the powder to the extent that the powder would not ignite at all.

Something else happened in those scenarios that are not due to a small flash hole.

6.5x47 17 pound 1000 yard bench gun.
140g Berger LRBT VV540 and Tula small rifle magnum primers.
15+ degrees F.
Hang fires.
Click and then a bang.
Very uncomfortable feeling.
Above 50 degrees no problem with Tula..
I have shot the 6.5 SLR based on 308 lapua palma case( bigger than a -47 case) down into the 40s usuing CCI 450 Mag primers with no issues.
Test before before you trust..

dave

I've even encountered hangfires with Large Rifle Magnum primers and some spherical powders at zero Fahrenheit. But I was testing loads, not hunting, which I tend to do with any handload (or factory ammo) that might be used in very cold weather.