I see that Lapua has chosen to use small rifle primers for their 6.5 Creedmoor brass. I read what Lapua says, but what are the implications, good or bad, for using small primers in a hunting application?

I am curious too.....especially in cold temperature hunting applications.

I have had hang fires with standard SR primers in the 6.5-47 using ball powders.And VV 540
Running CCI-450 SR mag primers i've been down to 25 degrees with no issues.
IF your hunting.
Run the large primer version.
IF your running BR.
SR primers are the ticket.
IF your stuck on the small primer version for hunting.
Test it before you trust it.

dave

I would not foresee any problems. Most if all loads under 40grs. If Lapua designed it, it must be good. Powder choice could be a factor but not a certainty. Their brass is so good, I would try it.

Beings CCI 450's are about as hot as Federal 210s I think it would be a same same type of thing. The problem would arise if using a weaker Small rifle primer, mixed with a slower hard to ignite powder
, in cold weather......

I like the large rifle primers in my Savage

I'm using large rifle primers in the Hornady brass (obviously), and that works great. The debate is whether the quality of Lapua brass is worth any questions regarding hunting in the cold. As mentioned, that is my only concern. Also, any change in velocity vs. large rifle?

I have a pair of 6.5CM for hunting and I am using Hornady brass now and really don't have any complaints. I will keep using it going forward.

I also have a 6.5CM being built for f-class/playing around and I am going to start with the Lapua small primer brass. I expect to shoot H4350 and won't be shooting in the cold, so hopefully I will get even better case life than I do with the Hornady.

6.5 Creedmore is a fun round!!

Someone would have to show me data, not conclusions but data, before I bought into the notion that an SR primer was 'better' in the Creedmoor than an LR primer. A gimmick for sure, but better? Even merely 'no worse across any and all hunting and general-use conditions?' Show me the data.

I too am a big fan of data. I would the BR crowd would have some. But observations have their place too.

I have a feeling this is one of those things that may show an advantage to target or match shooters over the long haul and thousands of rounds; but would be statistically irrelevant in hunting rifles. This is like a lot of what is recommended today in hunting rifles that won't matter a hoot in terms of hunting success.

But in a hunting context, reliable ammo and rifles that go "bang" under all (cold) conditions are far more important than the minor gains in accuracy. I would not ne interested in the stuff for any hunting I'd do with the Creedmoor.

My rifle already shoots less than MOA with standard Hornady brass.

I have the cousin in the 6.5X47 Lapua case. I have seen no issues with cold weather and ignition.

Lapua brass is better than Hornady...enough to justify cost? That is up to you.

There should be more potential for more velocity as the SRP brass typically can be leaned on a bit more.

Bringing this back up. Any new insights?

I was looking at a box of Lapua Brass on the shelf debating whether I "needed" it.

This per Lane Pearce with Shooting Times:
Altogether, I tested 16 batches of test loads and discerned a definite "better" performance bias with most of the small rifle primers. With a couple of exceptions, there was very little difference in average velocities, but the small rifle primers almost always delivered reduced standard deviations and improved accuracy. I consulted Dave Emary, Hornady's chief ballistic and originator of the 6.5 Creedmoor, to share the good news. He promptly poured cold water on my results. He goes on to say basically that Emary says typical 6.5 Creedmoor powder charges are too large to reliably ignite with small rifle primers under all conditions. Then Pearce goes on to say he con suited with Hodgdon Powder on this and their rep agreed. For even more confirmation, he was told the potential rewards from using the small primer in 6.5 Creedmoor were out weighed by the risks, especially when trying double based powders to achieve higher velocities.
Wordy, yes, but it tells me all I need to know. I am plenty happy with Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor brass and (although I did try Lapua SP brass) I will b e sticking with it.

Thanks! Good info. Gives me plenty of reason to stick with what I have.

If you feel like the cci 450 is not hot enough, then the Tula small rifle magnum primer will end all doubts as it is hotter than the 450.

I have played with the small and large primers in the 6 XC. The 308 palma brass with the small primer is really tough compared to the norma large rifle. I shot the 107s at an accuracy node of 3270 fps in a long barrel

On his website David Tubb says: “A detailed study of large and small rifle primers showed that large rifle primers worked best when the propellant charge exceeds 35 grains as is the case with the 6XC.” I would consider Tubb the last word on the 6XC.

Since the 6.5 Creedmoor normally uses more than 35 grains of powder, I haven't bothered with the small-primer Lapua cases, partly because I've had such great results with Hornady brass.

I’ve had no issues with Hornady brass, the Lapua brass was just a consideration for a new Fieldcraft in 6.5 Creedmoor I’m waiting to arrive. If the stars align, I’ll have one load of 139 Scenars being pushed by RL16 or 26 for both hunting and long range plinking.

I agree with you. I have also had such good results with the Hornady brass that there's no need to play around with gimmicks. I've encountered so many people (on the rifle team, at some serious national matches, or even higher profile folks) who don't even know _how_ to analyze data, nevermind whether they actually _do_ try to analyze data, that I don't pay any attention when someone says they 'discerned' a lower SD.

Small primer / primer pockets handle higher pressure a bit better.

MZ5,

Yeah, I've grown a little weary of standard deviations calculated from 5-shot strings!

What am I to do? I been bite by the Creedmoor bug and like many fine details in the shooting world I often rely on what I consider to be reliable information that is gained as a result of others expertise and hard work.

I try to sort through the "wheat and chaff" of the info that is publicized for the shooting world. I will never shoot enough to know if small or large or hotter primers or a certain brass will be worth the expense for my type of shooting.

I bought a Diamondback AR10 in 6.5 Creedmoor and have a SWFA 3-15x42 mm scope with the Mil Dot Master book coming and purchased 200 rounds of Hornady ammo and will get 200 more rounds after the scope gets here.
This will be my spear into shooting past 500 yards and learning the mil dot system.

After that I will get the 6.5 Creed dies for my Dillon 550B and use up what ever old powder and primers I have laying around that works in the rifle/caliber. I have a stock pile of H4350 and more coming as I use it in a couple of 30-06 rifles and plan on getting a good bolt gun with a detachable magazine some day in 6.5 Creed. Eventually I will settle on an accurate enough load, these will be my "range/bench" guns and personal defense if needed guns, as I am an old Alaskan and prefer the 30-06 or my .338 for hunting moose, caribou and bears. Yes, I am aware the Creed will kill them, I just want to kill them deader.

In the mean time I will gleam info from smarter and more experienced shooters then me. So to all of you hard working, dedicated and smart shooters, I give you a big THANK YOU !

I have gone to ten shot strings over the chronograph.

living and hunting in northern Minnesota with my rifles staying in a cold truck or in a cold pole shed and up here we have dang cold weather lots of below zero weather . I have had much better results always with large rifle primers and to be honest Federal seems to make a better cold weather primer too. I have even left my AR-10/243 built by Norene Firearms out on my shooting bench for 2 days, it stayed below 20 below on both nights, third day tested rifle with 3 shots at 300 yards, the group was at 1 1/2 inches- 1st shot was 1 1/2 from the other 2 shots, those were about a 1 inch with one inside the 3 shot group, this off a bench with bench bags and there was no wind that day.

Not withstanding the potentially improved accuracy argument, I was under the impression that Lapua went with a SR pocket to facilitate the higher end loads that seem to be desired by so many Creed shooters. With such limited case capacity, using higher pressure loads really limits case life in cases not designed to handle the pressure as well.

Alpha brass anyone? Where I live I can buy Hornady brass at $63 per 50 or Alpha at $125 per 100. Seems like a no brainer to me.

shoots4fun,

30-40 chronographed rounds is more like it for calculating standard deviation.

If I recall correctly, Ken Oehler once posted here that SD from 10-shot strings is much like using 3-shot groups to determine a load's accuracy.

Ive read numerous accounts of hang fires in the Creedmoor with SR primers. There is a Bergara Facebook page with many post about pierced SR primers in the Creedmoor due to Bergaras firing pin hole size in the bolt. Using Hornady and Starline large primer brass has given me zero issues and good case life with great SD numbers seems like small primer brass is more trouble than its worth.

And my luck is I always have just one in ten that makes the other nine look bad.


I have one buddy who uses his Labradar at the bench and chronographs every round he fires (LR BR shooter).

It’s amazing stuff. Definitely a no-brainer.

I'll just that Lapua has made 308 Palma brass which is small primer pocketed for years for various reasons and people like it if you're having hangfire issues with a Creedmoor and other stuff you're doing the wrong s*** flat ass simple some of y'all need to really get educated

I keep a log-book for each session and tally-up multiple shot strings over time. Depending on how many range sessions you get to, over a few months you can have a few dozen shots cataloged.
That gives you, I believe, a very valid look at your rifle's accuracy, load consistency and a measure of your skills at the bench at home and on the range.

the 6.5x47L case has the small primer. I don't shoot in sub-zero temps and I suspect that more than 99% of us don't shoot in sub-zero temps where the difference in accuracy between the two will matter.

I have found two loads with my 6x47L where the ES is less than 5 for as many shots as I have taken. I use Russian primers. I have no idea how "hot" they are. I suspect that IF I ever decide to hunt Musk ox or polar bear with my 6x47L I will use CC 450s.

The small primer pockets do indeed hold up much better than the large ones do to pressure. When brass costs $1 a pop or more, you want it to last. My powder charges in the 6x47L are generally 38-40 grains- over the Tubb threshold. I don't have any way of comparing since nobody makes this brass but Lapua.

All the Creed stuff I have tried has shot wonderful and has been LR Hornady brass.

I saw that piece by Pearce. Also, there's an article on the 6CM in the 2018 Hodgdon Annual by Layne Simpson, for which he used reformed 6.5 brass with both primer sizes in an RPR and an American Predator. Hard to see any advantage either way from his data, as he got impressive results with both. My main takeaway from article is that Superformance looks like a good place to start for the 6 powder-wise.

My notion is that I would be foolish to let the my choice for hunting loads be dictated by what target shooters prefer, risking poor ignition, as long as I get good accuracy with LRs. They should do what works best for them, of course.

A small rifle primer pocket would limit the number of angels who could dance in the pocket when primerless.

Let us know how that Diamondback shoots, I've been curious about it, and the price is decent on them.

Dennis, it's not the accuracy part that worries me in sub-zero temps. It's the thing going BOOM when commanded that concerns me.

Not necessarily. What is the Lebesgue measure of an angel's footprint in R2?

Layne ALWAYS gets impressive results
While I use more Hodgdon powder than any other brand, I do not get the results others do with Superformance or H100V powders. Also, after quite some time behind the 6 Creedmoor stoked with H4350, I have found my best performance from Alliant RL16. The accuracy node was wider than a LA freeway and I get more velocity (with less pressure) from the same 42 grain charge behind 105 Hybrids.
I know that has nothing to do with this discussion of SRP v. LRP but just trying to say don't lock in on the Superformance bandwagon without trying other powders. I seem to remember during the peak H4350 shortage that Hornady was said to be using H100V in 6.5 Creedmoor loads and the results were much less favorable.

Don't worry; I ain't buying any 8-pounders until I see what's what.