My father in law hunted exclusively with the 220 swift. It was almost 20 years ago my father in law passed. In the 6 years I was blessed to hunt with him it was the only rifle he use. He had taken 17 elk with the 220 swift. It seems recently there has been a lot of interest in whether or not anyone will offer a properly twisted 22-250. Me, I think Im going to stick with my 8 twist 223 and the 60 grain partition



Trystan

The 22 cal's are not legal in most states for hunting elk, as you suggest. However since you are asking about "big game", they work great on deer where it is legal to use them...

I've used both, but quit because the bullets kept bouncing off...

I wouldn't shoot a bull elk with either of those. Maybe a calf if I was starving and it was the only gun available.

In Montana there is no caliber restriction
for big game other than as specified for shotguns


Trystan

That's cool 17 elk with a swift. Guess he didn't read where guys who hadn't shot elk with one(maybe no elk with anything) said it was a poor choice. Maybe something to that whole shot placement thing.

The 60 grain partition should stabilize in a 12 twist and there are several .22-250's with 12 twist on the market. Other tough bullets that will stabilize in a 12 twist are the 50 gr Barnes TTSX the 45 and 53 gr TSX, the 64 gr. Win power point and the 50 gr. Hornady GMX.

Idaho has no caliber restrictions either...as long as it is a centerfire. A .17 Hornet is perfectly legal for elk.

As to the 22-250 vs 223, I have killed plenty of deer and antelope with both. Never saw much a difference but I do think speed helps with the .22 cals for bigger critters. The smallest I have killed an elk with is a 6mm, and it worked just as well as anything else.

I think you are right on, Id stick with the 8 twist .223 before a 14 twist .22-250.

If you can get a tight twist .22-250 you might want to give it a go... Im sure it will work...

Either cartridge will grab 'em by the pussy but I've never found anything wrong with more speed.




Dave

Plenty of game has been killed with 22 caliber cartridges, but dead is sometimes better with a larger caliber. People will continue to hunt big game with small calibers with plenty of passion that they are suitable.

If there wasn't some truth to larger calibers having better killing power, there wouldn't be any limitations on acceptable cartridges in Africa.

Compelling, 3rd world shietholes are the bar by which we should judge.


Tell me your mom swallowed the other loads.

Of course the resident know it all with a filthy mouth and less experience on anything but Sitka deer and Alaska weather, continues to pontificate. Your experience is unarguable with the time you have spent posting on the Campfire, but your real life experience would be a best seller on the fiction shelf at any cheap bookstore.

Come on with something else you pathetic loser. Being highest posting member of the Campfire will be all that anyone will see written on your tombstone and even Kentucky would prefer it doesn't end up there.

Ever swallowed a grenade?

Is that a yes?

You saying a grenade is worse than a 223?

That's really stupid.





Fave

Yep, you are a stupid son of a BITCH.

You are a real piece of work. You want to insult people with these kind of comments, I would like to see it when you said that to the right person and not safe at home with your computer.

I'm sure you're just as much of a dumbshiet in person. Guessing it hurts, but you're too f*ckig stupid to know.

Oh [bleep] fight fight fight ....

Just because a certain cartridge will kill an animal doesn't mean that it's the "right" thing to do in using it. I once killed a deer with a 22LR, and yes, it was illegal. An old farmer I knew lived off deer meat, and all he used was a 22. But, a 22LR is a very poor choice as a deer rifle. I am old school, and remember when the 243 was smallest centerfire cartridge you could use for deer hunting here in Kentucky. I think it should still be that way. By the way, I've killed a few deer with the 223, but I still think it's too small.

Why, pray tell, is the 22LR a "very poor choice as a deer rifle," other than legal restrictions?

A .22 LR stinger tight behind the shoulder will straight up drop an average sized whitetail.

It'll blow some minds how effective it is.

It's been proven the old bullets worked well. That said it's so funny old people who still think all 223/22-250's are shooting 50gr spitzers or some chit.

They just don't know what they don't know. I'm not going to argue about it anymore. They're not going to be buying up the bullets I like.

Hell, I killed a young (but not a yearling) red deer hind with a silenced 22LR last year shooting some random cheap round. One shot tight behind the shoulder.

She ran about 50-60 yards before tipping over. I've seen plenty of whitetail/mule deer/antelope run that far after taking a .30 cal round through the shoulders. She didn't leave much of a blood trail though. I gotta disclaim that.

T ,,
Swallowing loads was mentioned and not a word about the ladies in our lives what gives.

PS killing [bleep] is all in the operator I can kill elk with an air rifle. But retards be warned it takes a 378 ratherby.

LMAO.




XOXOXXO,
Clark

[bleep] man file a PTSD claim LOL. I knew a girl in highschool that could.

Have far more experience with the .22-250 and .220 Swift than the .223. My wife and I used the Swift a lot on antelope and deer back in the 1980's with the 60-grain Nosler Solid Base loaded to around 3650. It worked fine, about like a .243 or any other cartridge in that class, and the same load also worked on rockchucks and prairie dogs.

Mostly used the .22-250 cull shooting when I spent a month in South Africa in 2007, using the 55-grain Winchester soft-point factory load, which was the choice of my PH. We were using his old Sako .22-250, which was on its 4th barrel after taking over 12,000 springbok (about the size of pronghorn), as well as a bunch of other animals. My hunting partner and I took mostly springbok and similar smaller antelope, but my partner took a kudu bull, shooting it running in the heart at about 100 yards. He also took one springbok at 350 and I took one at just about 500, with a spine shot. It worked fine. We used the factory load, by the way, not just because it worked, but because the PH owned a big local sporting goods store and could get it wholesale.

Have also taken a few animals with smaller .22 centerfires, down to the .22 Hornet with the 60-grain Partition. My first Hornet was a T/C Contender carbine with a 1-12 twist barrel, and it shot the Partition into about an inch at 100, muzzle velocity 2400 fps. It worked fine on one doe whitetail.

There's no reason any of the .22 centerfires won't work on big game, even with "non-premium" bullets, but I kind of like the extra zip of the .22-250 and .220 Swift. Was talking it over with the Campfire's old friend Mark Dobrenski a few years ago, and our experience with both rounds was that if a bullet survived the trip out the muzzle, it would usually penetrate OK on medium game.

At the other extreme, however, have seen SOME bullets not survive even from 1-14 twists during prairie dog shoots on warm days, after the barrels can get pretty hot. The first time it happened was a number of years ago when several writers were invited to field-test a new .22-250 on a prairie dog deal along the Kansas/Nebraska border. We were also testing some new factory ammo loaded with very thin-jacketed, relatively light bullets, and once the barrels got warm they started doing very strange things.

Only a few actually came apart in the air, but many took off in odd directions, so we finally shot some paper, and found not only larger groups than when the barrels were cool, but many bullet holes with swirls of what appeared to be melted lead around them, like a pinwheel. After the barrels cooled down again the ammo went back to shooting very well, but once the barrels started getting hot things went downhill again. Interestingly, we also had a couple of .223's along, and they didn't do the same thing with ammo loaded with the same bullet, even when the barrels got very hot.

That ammo, by the way, is still on the market, and may be one reason some companies are reluctant to put faster-twist barrels on .22-250's. Many shooters still use (or even specifically choose) .22-250's for prairie dog shooting, apparently because they believe the "extra range" over the .223 is often needed. That was somewhat true 30 years ago, back before we had bullets with higher BC's and turret-scopes, but not anymore. Personally, I only use hotter .22 centerfires for longer-range dogs, and then sparingly, with high-BC bullets in faster twists. For general PD shooting out to 300-350 yards much smaller cartridges works fine.

Have also known several people who use the .22-250 and .220 Swift on elk here in Montana, and actually prefer them over larger cartridges, especially for certain uses. One was an old game warden who whacked a lot of elk off haystacks in winter, when "depradation" shoots were still commonly done by the Fish, Wildlife and Parks Department. He used 55-grain handloads and killed hundreds. He said a Swift bullet through the ribs killed them quicker than anything else he tried.

I know a kid who shot a cow elk with a 223 last year.



Asked him how many shots?


He replied, "One good one".

I bought a Ruger American Rifle in 22-250 specifically because it has a 1-10" twist but I haven't taken the time to wring it out with some longer, heavier bullets.

What would you recommend as possibles?

What cartridge and bullet do you prefer to shoot deer with, and out to what ranges?

50 bmg might kill deer.


In all seriousness I really like the 6.5's in all flavors on deer and deer like creatures. But I like .277" as well.

Do you really believe that the 22LR is a good choice for a deer rifle?

Why so many?

I have killed deer with the following cartridges....22LR, 223, 243, 6.5X55, 6.8SPC, 270, 270WSM, 7X57, 7-08, 308, 303 British, 35 Rem, 20 guage slug, and 50 caliber muzzleloader, along with a few I have probably forgotten. Probably half of those deer, and I have hunted for over 50 years and quit counting a long time ago, were killed with the 270 and a 130 grain bullet. I have shot them at 15 yards, all the way out to 450. Of all the cartridges I've used, I consider the 270 to the best.....period. I have had shoulder problems for several years now, and shoot a 243 more than anything else these days.

Having said all that, I could care less what someone shoots, although I do believe one should use some common sense about it. just because a certain cartridge will kill a deer, or an elk, or a bear, or whatever, doesn't necessarily mean it's the best choice for the job. Jack O'Connor told the story of an Indian who killed a grizzly with a 22LR, and an account of an elephant being killed with one. Does that qualify the 22LR as a good choice for a grizzly, or an elephant? Of course not. Which brings us back to the OP about the 223 and 22-250 for big game hunting. If that's all I had to use, then I'd do it and do the best I could. But....that does not mean they are "good" choices, because there are far better cartridges available, and those are the ones I would use. What you would use, is your choice and your right.

I've switched back and forth between a .243, .30-30 and .223 for my deer hunting for quite a few years now. I honestly can't say I've seen much difference in effect between them. If anything the ones shot with the .223 have probably gone down a little quicker than the ones shot with the .30-30 and about the same as the ones shot with the .243. The .30-30 with 170's has penetrated better, exited more often and leaves better blood trails on a consistent basis. I just got a new .22-250 primarily for use as a woodchuck and coyote duster but have no doubt it will find it's way into the deer season rifle rotation and that it will be plenty effective when it does.

Have had exactly the same experience with those cartridges.

The .223 is a fine deer killer, and the difference in blood trail between it and .243 is nil. The .30 calls will make them leak better, but the farthest I ever had one go after a .223 hit ( Out if 60+ critters with the little gun now..) was 50 yards.

I rarely have anything productive to say, and this is no exception, but here is the mule deer I killed via vanilla .223 Rem this year. While he took two shots, the cartridge had zero influence on that. The first shot was an anomaly and either hit a branch first or the bullet failed to expand.

At the second shot, he instantly folded and fell to the ground. It was as quick as any big game kill I have ever seen, with any round.

Ive seen some hit in the shoulder by kids with the 223 sp that went well over a 100 yds. One hit too far back getting the back of the liver went a quarter mile and was only found because of my gsp.

Man, i hate trying to trail up deer after dark when there is no exit hole and thus no good blood trail.

To be even more useless, here is an antelope I took at 550+ yards this year with the same .223 Rem. He stumbled 5-10 feet with a hole in his lungs before falling.



While I am a it, here's a doe I killed the same day with the same rifle. I think she made it about 50 yards with one shoulder broke and her lungs ventilated.


Here's another doe I took this year with my .223, which ran a good 300 yards with her lungs completely blown to hell. There were chunks of lung all over the sage, and after finishing her off, I realized literally half her vitals were missing. I rarely see this much damage, even when shot with a MUCH bigger round and frangible bullet.


This all just goes to show that 22 CFs are no less effective than other rounds...sometimes they go down instantly, sometimes they make a short death run, regardless if you punch lungs or break shoulders. Very occasionally you'll have one run a ways, regardless of how much damage your bullet/round does.

To the OP: you'll be just fine with whatever choice you go with. Please avoid FMJs though. That 60 partition is a ruthless killer, if you can actually hit something with it.

The 223 and 22-50 are both awesome for deer, antelope, hogs dogs rams and lambs. But terrible choices for big game hunting.

What bullet/bullets in that 243 and 270?

T Inman,

Ive been hunting now for 43 years. In those years Ive taken only 6 or 7 deer with a 223. While others on this forum have certainly killed truckloads more deer than I I still think the 70+ deer Ive put in the freezer was a big enouph sample for me to say the 223 worked as well as any of the other cartridges Ive used. The furthest I remember one running is about 50 yds with a lung shot. 😀

For a lot of years however I have mostly hunted with my 270 not because I think it kills deer any better but because I usually hunt deer and elk in the same day and I havent wanted to try the 223 on elk.


This year I tried a reduced recoil load in the 270 for two grandkids deer hunting and had some mixed results. Next year I'll be getting out the 223 that in my opinion recoiled less but killed more effectively than the reduced recoil 270 load I tried this year. On that note that was my thinking when I started this thread.

Its no surprise that many others have seen the same results as I have in my small sample of deer hunted with the 223


I am currently playing around with the little 6.5X55 swede and the old cartridge has impressed me so far 😀

Trystan

270....130 grain Sierra Game King, and 60 grains of H4831. Nothing on this planet will kill a deer any quicker, except maybe a lightning bolt, and that would be arguable.
243....I've used 85 grain Sierra HP's, 90 and 95 Nosler BT's, 95 grain Hornady SST's, 100 grain Core-Locts, and 100 grain Winchester Power Points.

There is no magic in bullets or how they kill. All else being equal with sufficient penetration, the wider the wound channel (the bigger the hole) the faster things die. There are cartridges and bullets out there that do considerably more damage and make considerably bigger holes then the 130gr .270 Game King- it's not even close.


The Hornady 75gr A-MAX and the 77gr Sierra Tipped Matchking are two .224 bullets that have a wider wound channel in deer sized animals than the 130gr SGK.



All these are from the 77gr TMK. All penetrated between 18-20 inches and all went through "shoulders" coming and/or going.

You think the cartridge that created these is "too small"? How far you figure these mule deer and whitetail went?




Right at 2,600fps impact velocity.




2,750fps impact





2,300fps impact.






2,550fps impact.







2,650fps or so





It isn't the 1960's anymore. Once John Nosler came out with the Partition and people started realizing how to engineer projectiles from the targets perspective, the world of "sensible" choices changed. Manufactures can and do create bullets for specific characteristics in tissue and it is no thang to get a 300gr .338 bullet that will come unglued and only penetrate 10in, or a 50gr .224 that will penetrate 30+ inches.

Yes, it's possible to build a 27 caliber bullet that will create much more tissue damage than a 77gr .224 bullet. However I haven't met anyone that wants MORE damage than the above. So if a person can get as much or more damage than they want, more penetration than they need, less recoil, less cost, less blast, and more precision...




Bullets, bullets, bullets.....

Why not the 223AI?

here we go....

Be gentle, as some of you may not like what I've killed most of my deer with.....



















Arrows.

It is true! 270 bullets bounce off 😀

Nice pictures


Trystan

Holy crap, that carnage is as bad or worse than a 30-06 with a 150 grain ballistic tip.

So, if I were to post some pictures of a deer that got squashed on the interstate by a semi hauling steel, does that mean that the deer is "deader" than one that get's hit by a Ford F-150. The amount of damage to the deer's carcass would certainly be greater, so I suppose it would be "deader" Right?

So MD, what do you usually use for hunting when you go for big mule deer or big elk, please?

Indeed. They are wicked little bullets. The 77gr TMK was engineered specifically for the purpose. Bucks get TMK's/A-MAX's, meat gets monos/bonded.







You said that 22 cal CF's were "too small" for deer. I would presume that "too small" would mean "doesn't do enough damage to be ethical" or something similar. Based on the picrures- is it too small?

That is a great deer and photo!

The 222 Magnum was a cartridge that probably would have been better than the 223, in my opinion. Back in those days I had a 22-250 and saw little need for that cartridge. I remember shooting wood chucks with a friend who had the 222M. For longer range wood chucks the 6mm and the 22-250 were my choices.

But if the brass was as cheap as the 223, I'd be using it for pd's. For deer, I prefer something bigger.

I have probably shot 40-50 caribou with a 22-250 when I was teaching in Ambler. Most people still hunt with 223s. I grew up hunting with a 300 win mag but you do what locals do when you go to a new territory. I used a Remington 788 with a 3X9 Simmons scope and used a curtain rod adjuster for a sling. The first week I was teaching there three of my students came in with a 3 year old interior grizzly that probably weighed about 350lbs. Its head was filled with bullet holes. They were out caribou hunting with their 10/22s when it popped up on a swale about 25 yards away. They immediately opened fire because grizzlies made good soup. I counted 25 hits but from them the bear instantly tried to get away and they weren't going to let it get away.

A lot of people in more open country use smaller caliber rifles. I have bounced up and down on caliber size and tend to stay around 30 caliber. I will say that it is preferable for somebody to use a 22-250 very effectively then to gut shoot a game animal with a 338 Winchester that they can't shoot. The 243 is an exceptional cartridge for somebody just starting out. The 30-06 is also a wonderful cartridge for a starting hunter.

Sincerely,
Thomas

+1, nice buck T Inman!

Cant reallyanswer for MD but I suspect its the same as me...he uses a variety I'll bet


However, in my case if I had to choose one, period, it would be the 55 grain Barnes TTSX.

HA!

I use a lot of different rifles and cartridges, maybe even more than Ingwe. :-)

For decades now I've used whatever needed testing, whether rifles, cartridges, bullets and even powders--and my wife Eileen has often helped. This has sometimes resulted in sometimes using cartridges and bullets not considered exactly "correct" for the game at hand, whether a .22-250 for pronghorns, using a 40-grain Cutting Edge Raptor at 4300 fps, a 7x57 on trophy moose, or a .338 Winchester Magnum on Texas whitetails.

Sometimes this has happened because a certain rifle was handiest for the purpose. A good example would be the custom .300 Winchester Magnum used on a Sonora mule deer in 2002, when a sudden opportunity came up. Before that I'd killed what most people would consider "big" mule deer with cartridges from the .257 Roberts to .30-06, but the .300 happened to have a U.S. Customs form, so was easy to bring into Mexico, and a bunch of ammo was already loaded. I didn't consider the .300 necessary, but the rifle was ready to go. And it worked, and in the process I learned a few things.

Usually on at least one hunt each year I get to use whatever rifle/cartridge/load I want, rather than what needs to be tested. This fall I used my grandmother's old 722 Remington in .257 Roberts to take a pronghorn, and will be doing more of that sort of thing in the future as well. But I also took another pronghorn with a Tikka T3 from Whittaker Guns that "needed testing." Hoped to take a big mule deer buck with it too, but never found one quite big enough to pull the trigger.

Basically I consider the rifle far more important than the cartridge, or even to a certain extent the bullet, but use different cartridges and bullets in order to be able to answer questions from readers. But I don't get hung up on using any cartridge or bullet over and over again, because within certain broad parameters they all work, if we do our job.

The biggest body weight deer that anyone in my family has ever killed was by my daughter with her 223 last year. Over 220 pounds field-dressed.

At 125 yards, the Nosler 64BSB worked perfectly. The deer died as quickly as any we've ever shot through the lungs.

Thanks guys. I spotted him opening morning from 1000-1200 yards away, and it took me two more days to find him again. Here he is (bottom deer) with a buddy.


I was actually in there looking for this guy, but never saw him again after I snapped this scouting picture a month earlier. Hopefully he survived the season and will survive the winter.



Apologies to the OP for veering off course

Can I go mule deer hunting with you?....grin

Every now and then I see a Browning BLR in 22-250, a combination I just dont understand..

I'm not anti 223 or 22-250. I own 8 rifles chambered for the 223/5.56, and love hunting with them. As I've stated, I've killed a few deer with the 223. I'm also definitely not the Elmer Keith type, who think anything less than a 300 Magnum is strictly for varmints. I happen to have a fondness for cartridges that don't have a lot of recoil, because I just shoot better with them. Also, I pretty much believe in minding my own business, and if a guy wants to go bear hunting with a switch, then more power to him.....even if he is a fool.

It's a fact that here on this forum, along with all internet hunting forums that we are all crack shots. We all regularly practice by shooting the pecker off a gnat at 500 yards, and we all have rifles that shoot 1/2 inch groups at that distance, in a 30 MPH crosswind, to boot. But, in the real world, most shooters aren't that good. I live out in the country, and the afternoon before deer season opens, one often hears more shooting than on opening morning....not from hunters jumping the gun, but from then waiting till then to sight a rifle in. I have known a lot of them who set up a 5 gallon bucket at 50 yards, and if they hit it a time or two, think they're ready to go hunting. Then they wonder why they missed a deer, or even worse, wounded on and lost it.

People like that are why I feel the 22 centerfires are just not big enough. The expert, who picks his shot, uses the right ammo, and knows exactly what he is doing, will have no trouble using a 223, or for that matter, a 22 LR. There are a lot of bullet choices for the 22 centerfires, some that will work fine for deer, and some that don't. Knowledgeable hunters will pick what works, the lazy ones won't. I have read everything I could find on Karamojo Bell, the famous elephant hunter who used a 7X57 quite a bit. Bell was an excellent shot, who knew what he was doing, and he had plenty of targets to perfect his shooting on. However, by some accounts, he also wounded and lost a lot of elephants. I think that's what happens when one chooses to use a cartridge that's somewhat marginal for the job.

Now, I was brought up to kill an animal as humanely as possible, and not let it suffer. To me, that means using the proper tool for the job. I said in an earlier post that I found the 270 Winchester, with a good 130 grain bullet to be the quickest killer of deer sized animals that I've ever used. Another poster likes to show gruesome photos of stuff he's shot, showing all the big holes his bullets make. But, that actually proves nothing. I've seen deer drop in their tracks without the bullet ever exiting, and the damage to the deer was hard to find. Cartridge and bullet combinations that make huge holes only serve one purpose, and that is to help someone get their jollies for overkill.

I've said all that to say this....if you want to use the 22 centerfires for deer sized stuff, and you know what you're doing, by all means do so. Rest assured, I will as well. I know full well that nothing I say is going change anyone's mind one way or another, just as they wouldn't change mine. But, I do know that when I go deer hunting with a 223, that I'm doing so with a rifle will not do what a bigger one would. That's just me and my way of thinking.

Do you see the contradiction?

I'm going to stand in & defend my 1-14 220 Swift. I'm a velocity freak & like Weatherby believe that speed & hydro static shock kills. I've taken over 300 animals with my Swift ranging up to 450 pounds, most of the with a 52 grain Sierra match king & good shot placement. I've been fortunate to have been invited on lots of cull whitetail & exotic hunts here in Texas. The 52 will enter & penetrate then just explode inside, rarely exiting, & leave the vitals like Jell-O. 99% of my animals traveled NO more than 10 yards & most fall dead in their tracks. I don't think you need a fast twist or big bullet with the Swift, just one that will penetrate & cause massive damage inside. Don't laugh at the 52 SMK's in your 1-14 Swift until you try them. My other bullet is the old 55 Nosler Ballistic Tips made in the beginning of BT's before they changed to a lighter varmint jacket.
Jim D

MD, i have killed many w.t. does with a 223 and federal np's in order to put a young gsp on to train.

This year i did entertain the thought of using the same Olympic Arms in the event i tracked a big muley into mesquite, bedding country where i would have a chance to jump a very big buck in thick cover, with the idea of having the semi-auto advantage.

Id be interested in what you and ingwe think of that idea.

Ingwe, if you were travelling through timbered or brushy country on foot only to shoot a big deer or big hog and would be needing to make a kill if you got a chance and where i doubt a chance at a sure kill ear shot would exist, would you be comfortable using an AR style 223?

Really?

The 223 is about my favorite 'brush' rifle for deer. I aim for and bust bone. I'd take it over a 30/06.

Don't need no fugking ear shots.

.223. Double lung.

In fairness, I don't actually know this girl. I just did a photo bomb when her husband when to take the pic.







Dave

Lungs. 22-250. 55gr. TTSX

Lungs. 22-250. 75gr. A-Max.

Everything Is Big In Texas - except the bodies of deer. Not talking about the deer behind game fences. I would like to have a fast twist 22-250 and try it on deer and hogs.

Lungs. .223. 53gr TSX. 300yds.


Luns/jugular/spine 55gr. TTSX/75gr. A-Max.

It's not a FUPA. It's NOTA a FUPA.
(Arnold font)

You'll never use anything else.




Dave

Ive only used but one 22 CF on a deer but those bucks look pretty sick to me.

Who make a fast twist 22-250?

Savage makes some in a 9" twist.

So, nobody.




Dave

LOL! OK got it.

Thanks. Laffin'!

jaguartx,

Sounds like a good solution to me. The biggest problem I've seen when hunting brushy country, whether for deer or anything else, is missing the brush--and sometimes even when you think there's a clear lane, stuff happens. Quick repeat shots can often help.

That sounds elitist..



But you're right....

I'm not an elitist.

I'm an a-hole.




Clark

I think that if the .223 was more universally accepted among deer hunters there would be fewer wounded/lost animals. Lots of trigger time is key to good marksmanship in the game fields, and a .223 lends itself to that way better than larger stuff, from a recoil and from a cost viewpoint. If I had a dollar for every nimrod I watched on "sight in days" flinching with their .300 Magnums/'06's/.270's/.358's, ad nauseum, I could take the whole bunch of you out for burgers and beers. A couple of hits on a five gallon bucket at 50 yards? Don't you wish, with a lot of those guys.

Is the .22 the ultimate game cartridge? A generation I ago I would have been a little skeptical. Now I'm accepting, and have even added a .223 to my deer rifle battery. Anyone who doubts its effectiveness in this day and age is either unenlightened or a hide-bound old fart who still thinks the sun rises and sets in Elmer Kieth's arsehole.

Some truths are self-evident.

The buck I shot last month with the 223AI was angling hard towards me. The bullet destroyed that 'knuckle'. There was bone pieces everywhere. It still went through all the goodies, and was a RCH from popping out the hide on the opposite side.

The 75gr bullet now weighs 65grs. He ran about 20 yards but I got to watch everything unfold through the scope. Another joy of using the 223.

I've put together a few 1-9" ROT 22-250s for under $400 by rebarreling Marlin XS7s with rechambered Stevens 200 223 barrels. Everybody who has one of them seems to like it.

H.S. Precision will spin one up in any twist you desire, they happen to shoot also!!!!!!

Just how big of a gun makes it not a problem to gut shoot a deer? And how much does one need to increase recoil to "improve" placement?









Wound size means nothing? Just how do you figure bullets kill? And how could something "marginal" be gruesome?

Thanks MD. Now i can do it without feeling like a stunt shooter.

I have a friend who has taken the big 5 and most stuff from the Permian Basin to the top of Mongolia. He had advised against it, but i would be in good tracking country and would prefer more firepower than a bolt gun at running deer through thick mesquite. I actually think a shotgun with buckshot could be effective except for the fact there are open areas that would need a rifle.

I've found that 'collectors' are generally clueless. Like getting pickup lines from someone that uses an escort service every night.

Over the years i have hit a few running deer in the guts with a 270 WBY mag. None went over a hundred yds before laying up and there was enough trash to follow them up for a finish shot.

(slow hand golf clap)





Dave

You like the 1" or 1.25" Montana sling? Been meaning to get one for a while just not got around to it.

Oh yea 75 amax 22/250AI one shoulder and lungs

You talkin' to me Willis???


I have a couple of each. Prefer the 1".



Dave

Yea was thank you!

Hold it in the wind
Varmintguy

Yeh, you are not vogue on the fire without one.

Even when I take a piss???





Clark

Well, besides taking several guys to Africa every year and culling he has a big place in Texas where TP&W surveys recommended about 200 W.Tails be taken a yr. He used to do a lot of shooting at game.

Yeah, especially when it's 40 below.

The only people that care about Africa and Texas are Africans and Texans.




Clark

jaguartx,

As a more general comment on this thread, I used to do some guiding when younger, and have also hunted here and there around the world, often doing more observation of other hunters in action than hunting myself. Have seen far more big game animals wounded by hunters using too much gun, than than being "undergunned," probably by a factor of at least 10 to 1. Which is why I tend to be skeptical when somebody suggest any cartridge as an absolute minimum--especially when the they suggest a cartridge without any mention of bullets.

Kudos for that post MD!

Ive seen more stuff wounded by "Magnums"..usually a 7mm Rem Mag, than everything else combined.Have yet to see a deer get out from under a .223...or a .22-250

On a Buffallllooooo!!!

Agree with JB & Ingwe. It also seems the ones that advocate the bigger cartridges are of the shoot em up and break them down types. Even Elmer Kieth advocating his "raking shots" was getting pretty close to promoting the "Texas Heart Shot".

Back to the 22s on game anyone thinking about this should read PO Ackleys chapters on the sub bores. In his opinion the 220 swift would stack up even or better than the 30-06 if a hundred deer were shot with each. He had the experience of game department staff that agreed after shooting multiple control animals with all sorts of rifles.

Part of the success was due to PO Ackley's controlled expansion bullet that was almost in between a TSX and a Bear Claw as it only had a small amount of lead in the tip.

Browning but its a 9 twist also.

I dont argue with campfire members 😀 Especially during the holidays


Trystan

Formidilosis,

Just an observation but, this fella makes me look pretty smart and thats saying a lot 😀


Trystan

Trystan,

Some of the thoughts are perplexing.....

What rifle companies make something other than a 14 twist in 22-250?

I believe Flave mentioned Savage?

(veddy sexy pics BTW Flave)


Of course the 22 cals are best for women and children but if my 'old' 22-250 didn't weigh 10 lbs I might take it out hunting again....

55 grain Winchester soft points.

Savage 16 Weather Warrior - 12" ROT

If you're going to post pics that can cause an embryo, maybe a warning in the title?




Dave

BYOB

What bullet were you using? Any pics of the recovered bullet that you would share?

75gr Swift Scirocco (2950fps) diameter is .530"

Nice buck Sam..!! Haven't caught up on this thread.. But he is a beauty!!!! The buck of course..

That looks really good, The pictures of pretty much every recovered Scirocco looks like that. My only experience with them so far has been with the 130 gr 6.5 mm in a 264 WM and my one recovered bullet looks as good.

It's the only Scirocco I've recovered to date, in several calibers.

It looks like they are a nice combination of wide expansion and toughness.

I always think of P.O. Ackley's books when this subject comes up. As you stated, he emphasized the use of proper bullets, particularly because most 224 bullets were intended for varmint use and the proper big game bullets weren't generally available to the mass market. Now they are available.
Though I'll probably not hunt deer with less than my 257 Roberts, I think we're now past the days when hunting medium game with 22 centerfires was a stunt. We're not talking about stopping charging rhino.

Took a long time to track that kill down.

MD and Ingwe, I have no qualms about using a 22 cal with good bullets on stationary game when a sure shot can be made. My concerns have been that in still hunting if a deer or elk is bumped or jumped and is running, whether in open terrain or brush or timber i cant help but feel a heavy bullet would be better at reaching the chest cavity after going through some ham and guts.

I did take my 223 along on this years hunt with plans to use it if i got on a big track into heavy mesquite. I did so because the sandy soil country would allow me to follow the trail on any buck that I got a bullet or two into.

I would not use that rifle sneak hunting central Texas hard ground or east Texas timberland or uncleared river bottom as I may not be able to track down a wounded deer or might run out property I am able to hunt.

Thanks for sharing your considerable knowledge and insight.

See,lots of 'FEELS' in there. To be clear, are you a split-tail?

That is impressive!

Rugger American is a 10 twist. Savage has gone to 12 twist. There are probably others.

Those Swifts look real impressive.

To me, those are the caveats of hunting with the little guns. Im not prone to taking raking shots on unwounded running game with anything. But to hunt carefully, pick and choose your shots with a well placed properly constructed .22 bullet is the name of the game.
FWIW I do prefer the Barnes for a lot of reasons, including maybe having to take a raking shot at a wounded animal, because I know it will penetrate. After a tad over 60 kills with it, I haven't had to do that yet!

I'll send a TTSX out of my 22-250 right up the ass of a mule deer just as fast as I would 145gr. Grand Slam or Partition from a 7-08.




Dave

Preferences on guns, cartridges are more based on what has worked and what has not worked for a person.
I prefer '06 for big game. But have successfully shot deer with cartridges small as 22-250. Part of the problem with aging is that a person has used a few poor bullets not suitable for game. I've used bullets that went through game animals that did very little damage and took several well placed bullets to drop an animal. Not enjoying seeing an animal suffer nor wanting to track an animal with little or no blood trail and doing so makes one predjudiced against bullets mostly. Similarly, seeing bullets "explode" on entry blowing huge holes, destroying excess meat or not reaching vitals and watching a gravely wounded animal limp and suffer will cause one to become predjudiced.
I maintain that people are predjudiced for reasons.
I won't list the cartridge/bullet combinations that have not worked for me, but I will say that bullets traveling at less than 2900 fps, bullets that penetrate through the animal, bullets that expand we'll have an attraction to me for the "best" category.

This last hunting season, I used a 25-06 which killed the deer like lightning (I liked that) but caused too much damage on one deer because of a bone hit on entry made me think that if I use the 25-06 again I'll use a heavier bullet, with a heavier jacket.
The rancher, whose land I hunt on, never used anything but an early savage 340, I think, in 222 factory loads and an antique 3/4" scope. His deer rarely if ever required a second shot. He never shot a deer other than off-hand.
His preference is different than mine. But I hope that he doesn't look down on me as I often bring a different rifle, scope, bullet, load combination for deer.
But I still like the old 06 the best. Maybe it's cause of the Springfields dad bought in the late 40's and early 50's that had a lasting impression on me. And only once with a poor bullet selection did the 06 not work perfectly.

I'll wager in this PC world half of the members don't know that term actually refers to uniform blouses (jackets) and not women's anatomy. You're showing your age... LOL

Semper Fi

Split-tail similar to BAM AKA "Broad Ass Marines".

Ha! My grandad used to refer to them as such. Used to crack me up as a kid till I saw it with my own eyes.

Thompson Center is 12 twist too.

I like that.

I do too but I don't know if I can get one to stabilize in my 1-10" RAR.

No way will it.

Agreed!

Killed a wild hog with a 223 once.

Killed a bunch with a 308

Killed a couple with a 375

They all tasted fine.

What twist to stabize the Scirraco?

An 8tw would be best...a 9 tw could work if you can get the speed out of it.

What about the 62 gr version? It is quite a bit shorter than the 75 gr.

I asked this forum a few months ago if anyone used the 62 grain Scirocco, and got no input. Course, they were hard to get, but I'd still like to know how they pan out if anyone has tried them.....

The 62 should be fine in a 1-9". I'd not bank on it working in a 1-10", based on length and my previous experience with other Scirocco's. They are very much like Barnes bullets, in that they LOVE twist.

Does the same apply with an AR style 223? Ive killed several with the 22-250 but dont enjoy sneak hunting with the weight forward 26 in barrel WBY Varmint Master.

My lt wt Nosler custom is more carry frendly, Dave. Thanks.

I have had good success with the 90 gr from a pre'64 ftw in 243. Small exit hole required some bit of trailing a sparse blood trail.

Thanks, ingwe. I shoot does for meat. My real deer hunting is only for really big bucks, whether for whitetails in E Texas, SW Texas or muleys in West Texas, though i have archery, ml, and rifle hunted big bucks in NM, Co, and Montana.

If i get a chance at any really big buck i mean to kill it if at all possible wheather i am still hunting or sitting. If i jump a big buck in brush or timber or have to shoot him running at 200 yds i am going to try and i usually do so. I want to use only what will get the job done on less than an optimum hit. I wont pass on trying to kill a big buck if i figure i have the odds in my favor and 58+years of shooting running jacks, coyotes, hogs and deer gives me confidence and a fair amount of ability. I grew up with men in the piney woods who had no qualms about shooting running deer in the woods with a Win 30-30 or Rem pump 30-06 whether it was jumped while sneak hunting or ahead of hounds.

Yep.




Dave

Thanks Dave. Im good to go then.