Out of curiosity...

I have a 6.5 Creedmoor right now as my "big" gun. I know the energy figures look pretty good but I can't help but wonder if I get the chance to go after bear or go where they are...is this enough? There is a big difference between would I shoot a bear at 200 yards in a hunting situation and one running right at me from 50 yards and I have to stop it.

Energy figures are nice but a bigger hole always seems better...?

You Guys Want To Shed Some Light Here For me?

We're talking black bear? You are well equipped. Pick a great bullet and go kill one.

A black bear charging from 50 yards? That is not a non-existent situation, but essentially will never happen.

Brown bear

The thought was, if a 3006 with a partition has been said to be enough gun, would my equal energy load be equal and also enough

If I was going to hunt brown bear,it would be with a .375 H&H.

Not going to intentionally hunt them, mostly just curious about your opinions on the energy vs the diameter and usefulness in real life experience

I'm not one of the writers, but I'll throw my two cents out there. First, which type of bear? Black, mountain Grizzly, Kodiak, Polar, ...?

If its Black bear - use it and be happy. Shot placement - regardless of caliber - trumps energy alone. Example, a .375 H&H in the guts is less likely to kill Blackie as quickly as a 6.5 in the boiler room (heart / lungs).

If its Grizzly, Kodiak or Polar bear - personally I believe the question is not, "can a 6.5 Creedmore kill one of these tenacious bruins", because it can.

You mentioned "one running right at me from 50 yards and I have to stop it." To me the question is, why would I want to use a 6.5 Creedmore to hunt one of the large, bad tempered bruins? Indeed, what if you have to try to stop one at 30 feet with a 140 grain bullet? Or worse, having to crawl on hands and knees through an alder thicket after a wounded Brownie? For me, I would be wishing for a .375 H&H or .416 Rigby in those close quarters. Anything else would seem too small to give me comfort.

There is a vast difference between killing a bear and stopping a charging bear. If the situation calls for stopping it right now - for me the conversation starts at .338 win mag 250 grain bullets, and goes up from there. There is a very old thread somewhere in search history posted by JJHACK, spelling out what is a stopping rifle. I suggest reading it. At least I found it informative.

I guess I gave more than two cents, but who's counting?

gundog

So you carry a stopping rifle or a hunting rifle?


I am mostly interested in learning how bc and energy converts to reality. An arrow has almost zero energy compared to a 338 but it works just fine to kill stuff, for example.

Used bear as an extreme example.

Phil shot a bear with a 9mm. Some can't kill one with a 338. So obviously placement trumps all. We knew that.

But numbers on paper apparently don't mean a lot in the woods.

If the rifle will take the 156 and 160 grain round nose bullets you would be in the same class or better as the 6.5X54 Mann/Scho.

The "256 Mannlicher" was known 100 years ago for it's exceptional penetration with those kind of bullets.
So yes you would have the capability of making kills on big bears.

But you better shoot well. Big bears die as easily as anything, if you break their spines or brain them, and the 160 gr bullets will go deep enough to kill with lung shots.

But if you were facing a mean bear, where the bear was the hunter and you were responding, you'd better keep cool and shoot REAL well.

So if it all has to be perfect then it sounds like an 06 and 180 partition is better

If Brown Bear is on the menu, take a real gun, or stay home.

.338 Win Mag, or .375 H&H.

Anything is beter than nothing. However, ^^^^ I like this. ^^^^^

So it sounds like to get a decent step up from 6.5mm I need a lot bigger gun. And a lot bigger gun isn't a 270 or 06.

mjbgalt,

Phil Shoemaker commented here that he'd be happy to guide any brown hunter who brings a .270 Winchester they're used to with good bullets--partly because he has, and they've done well. A 6.5 Creedmoor wouldn't be very different with good bullets. It would be interesting to hear what Phil has to say on this question.

That crossed my mind too john. Hope he pokes his head in for a minute

mjbgalt,

I carry a hunting rifle, typically .243, .270, 7mm-08 or 30-06. I have never pursued a coastal brown bear, so do not feel the need for a stopping rifle.

If I ever get the opportunity to hunt a grizzly on the tundra, I would feel comfortable with my .270 or 30-06.

gundog

My take, brown bear hunts are expensive and a lot of trouble.

I have an assortment of rifles that would kill a brown bear, but I'd have to take my .375 H&H, just 'cause. It's accurate and I can shoot it. What's not to like...

In fact, I was shooting it off a bench this evening. I'd practice a bunch off hand before going on a hunt.

A good bud, on his way in a couple months to Africa for Cape Buff, spends time shooting his .416 Rigby off hand, can put most bullets in a 6" target at a hundred. Those that miss the black are pretty darn close.

Black bear, another story.

DF

There's a bit of theory and what if involved in my question. I always wonder how and why on things and this grabbed my attention while watching a TV show on alaska

mjbgalt-

Possibly I'm misinterpreting this sentence, but it seems you have a 6.5 Creedmoor load that produces energy equal to the 30-06?

Using a 30-06, Nosler's on-line reloading data shows that a 200-grain Partition bullet can be safely loaded to a velocity of 2688 fps.

What is the bullet weight and muzzle velocity of your equal energy load for your Creedmoor?

Thanks.
--Bob

Not looking at that weight. Was comparing as close as I could get it, 150 partition to 140 partition. But yes I know you can go heavier in the 06 of course.

Still, guys are talking 375s needed so?

You guys need to get out and do something rather than talk useless minutia ....if a brown bear charged you, you'd likely crap your pants miss the shot and get eaten,so really doesn't matter what your rifle is chambered in....the end
Now go enjoy the spring weather

Lol true.

Kinda like a skunk spray...if I schit myself maybe the bear will not be interested?

My question isn't so much about bears as it is the difference in real life between all the bc and bullet weight and diameter and energy numbers and etc that we get fed every day.

mjbgalt;
Top of the morning to you sir, I trust this Palm Sunday finds you warm and well.

I'll begin with the statement that I have personally never shot a grizzly but do all of my hunting on known travel corridors for them. That said, in 34 years of hiking and hunting on the mountains behind our house I haven't seen one yet - though neighbors and my hunting partner have.

A very good friend of mine used to guide for both black bears and coastal grizzly in northern BC and has been present when several dozen bears have been killed. Other hunting friends have killed grizzlies and have related to me how the bullet performance of their choice worked.

So sorry for the long preamble there, but - the friend who guided used a .375 H&H with either Partitions or some of the very first X bullets I'd ever seen. His boss used a .338 with Partitions - in my collection of recovered bullets is single example of the only .338 250gr Partition my buddy ever found in a grizzly by the way.

Anyway he said he never felt there was a significant difference between the .338 and .375 when bullets of equal toughness were used. He - and a few other folks who've been there and done that more than me - had good things to say about the 200gr Partition in .308" too.

Lastly, we're blessed with a nice long season here in southern BC for a variety of big game - most of 3 months truly. Once the 6 point elk season ends for me in early October I park my "heavy" rifle - a .308 Norma loaded with 168gr TSX and carry a Swede loaded with 120gr TTSX for the duration.

Based upon shooting deer sized animals with both rifles, I believe I would come out on top if push came to shove with a bear that refused to listen to reason. If I was purposely hunting grizzly however, there is no question I'd take the Norma over the Swede.

I've re-read this and am not sure it gives you any insight whatsoever, so I'll apologize if it doesn't and wish a Happy Easter to you and yours.

Dwayne

On bears (and any other game I am aware of) the differences in bullet weight, diameter and energy mean very little when compared with Bullet construction and SHOT PLACEMENT !

"On bears (and any other game I am aware of) the differences in bullet weight, diameter and energy mean very little when compared with Bullet construction and SHOT PLACEMENT !"

This one sentence sums it up better than many chapters of tripe written over and over and over.
Thank you Phil!

My take is that ballisticly, bigger is better, but 98% of the equation falls to the marksman and 2% to what he shoots.

So if a gun is too large to be fast handling, and if it kicks too hard to be shot well by the owner, and if the ammo is to costly to be fired a lot in practice. (all real world considerations) you are better off going back to a smaller rifle or handgun that you can become a real expert with.

If you can hit running jack rabbits with a 458 Winchester 8 out of 10 times you'd probably be better off (some anyway) with a 458 over a 6.5X55. But if you can hit with the 6.5 and you can't with a larger gun, leave the big gun home.

A smaller gun with a good bullet is going to work a lot better than a miss with anything, and a poor hit with anything shy of an RPG is probably going to be worse than a clean miss.

Can we make some general agreements such as, given the same or close, energy levels, the bigger diameter is better, or weight trumps that, or SD is more important or?

I have never had anyone explain how this stuff equates to real world experiences. Forget bears, just used as a worst case example. I get it, holes in vitals count most. But why are people throwing out bc and SD and energy and etc?

"But why are people throwing out bc and SD and energy and etc?"

Trowing out = trowing away?

Because BC and SD are nearly worthless when if comes to killing game. SD with proper construction is a good thing, but SD by itself means nothing. Some bullets with super good SDs break into pieces when they hit.

The 3 most noteworthy killing guns I have ever killed BIG game with are the 404 Jeffery, the 375H&H and a 62 cal flintlock shooting balls.

All of them are "poor" in comparison to most of the new "long range" super slick bullets being spoon fed to us by the gun rags. And the big round balls are "super poor".

But all of them kill VERY well, and just to keep it 100% clear, on animals up to American Buffalo and Moose, the one of the 3 that hits them hardest and puts them down fastest is the one that fires .605" diameter lead balls. The worst BC and SD you can fire.

But the ability to overcome air resistance is not a factor on bears at 100 yards and closer.

Resistance in air is also resistance in meat and that means energy transfer. I have shot my 62 cal flintlock through both upper leg bones on a large bull moose and had it break both bones, exit the moose and hit the trees behind.

What.........that's not good enough?

For what ------------ and who?

You want to stop a charging dangerous animal, you need something big. It may still run you over dead unlike the movies where animals magically drop or fall out of the air.
Really, it's a case of "if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen". If you want to play around in brown bear country learn to shoot a stopping round. Can't handle recoil? - stay out of the kitchen, you've got no business there and can't "justify" carrying something lighter no matter how you try. The perfect shot isn't going to happen when an adrenaline charged bear is running towards your not so calm self.

The biggest trouble with the 'shot placement is "98%"' argument is that "98%" of people who come into bear territory to pursue them or other things are unfamiliar with the conditions under which they will be shooting and often find some challenges in doing the 98% thing. While 'more' certainly doesn't give one the freedom to simply 'hit fur', and energy alone is hardly a good figure on which to base killing effect, there is something to the mass/momentum/energy/frontal area which certainly gives an edge to 'more'.

You have to hit them in the right spot - PERIOD !
If you gut shoot animal with a 460 Wby, a 30-06 or 223 they are likely to run just as far. If there is a difference it is minimal and statistically insignificant.

I will agree that bullet diameter, weight and velocity do make some difference ( which is why I prefer my 458 as a backup rifle ) but it is not as much as most folks believe and certainly not in direct liner proportions.

You know, there's a guy posting on this thread who does it professionally and stopped one a while back with a 9 mm pistol.

But, it's the Fire; opinions abound.

Just because hunters seek Phil out and pay good money for his services and guidance doesn't mean that "Fire opinions" aren't very important. At least here on the Fire...

Back to the 9mm handgun. Bullet placement, the right bullet and EXPERIENCE...

All three are important, not necessarily in that order...

DF

LOL, I was thinking the same. Good placement on a charging bear would be tough if you hadn't seen it a time or two. No matter how good you are with the pistol.

Even Phil was a rookie at one time, there is only one way to get experience

One can forge ahead, learn from the school of hard knocks or benefit from the experience of others who aren't rookies. Usually, it's a combo of both.

DF

I don't doubt it, but a 9mm would certainly not be my first choice for a handgun to carry in brown bear country.

I have to say it's amazing how popular threads are that discuss guns used for bears, whether for hunting or self defense. Seems like a sure fire way to get a thread with pages of responses.

Luckily, we have Phil to set the record straight when these threads start to veer out into improbability.

A 9mm wouldn't be Phil's first choice either, as I know from talking about it with him when we got together in February at the SCI convention. But he'd thoroughly tested the ammo in "media" and practiced a lot with the handgun.

Also personally know how cool he is in the presence of a very close and possibly excited bear. Eileen and I visited Phil and the rest of the family in 2008 for some fishing and ptarmigan hunting. We were fishing one day along a smaller stream and all of a sudden a good-sized bear came running downstream about 50 yards above us, followed closely by a nitwit with a point-and-shoot camera.

The bear dove into the brush 50 yards above us, then emerged from the brush about 15 FEET from me and Phil. I did get a very nice photo with my point-and-shoot camera, then held very still as Phil unholstered both his pepper spray and a revolver. As I recall it was a .357 Magnum but might be wrong.

The bear stood looking off toward the right, and we stood very still. As it turned out Phil was waiting to see if it faced right at us, because at that point, he said, they've made up their mind to charge. Instead the bear looked at us sideways, out of the corners of its eyes, and eventually decided to turn back into the brush.

Will also note that Phil has also stopped more than one charging, wounded-by-client bear with a .30-06, a cartridge most of the "experts" on this thread wouldn't even choose for hunting brown bears, let alone as a back-up rifle. The .30-06 isn't his first choice there, either, but it has worked every time.

If i get the chance to go to bear country i have a 35 Whelen that i put together.
That said i would not feel under gunned with my 7X57 or my 270 loaded with the right bullets.

By the way the 35 just loves the 200 grain barnes X bullet and the 7x57 does some good shooting with the same type bullet,just have not had the chance to try them in the 270.

No argument on that. The point I was trying to make is that the right spot is just a bit bigger and/or easier to choose when you have a bit more. And more than a few folks seem to run into some difficulty in finding the "right spot" when hunting bears for some reason. A well handled 223 is just as lethal as a 30-06 if it is directed correctly (with great precision). Lethal shot choices increase somewhat with the latter however. But your point about incorrectly thinking a poorly placed big/high-energy shot will have the desired outcome is spot on.

I'd still be toting my M-70 .375 H&H...

Why not...??

DF

John or Phil,

What 9mm load was used? Was it a max load with a fairly heavy FMJ or possibly hard cast bullet? Was the approach to target the bear's head in order to shut down the CNS? It would be interesting to know the details.

Even though I shoot thousands of rounds of 9mm every year it sounds pretty challenging to me. But I realize Phil is an expert on bears and can deal with them confidently under pressure.

If I ever got the chance to go bear hunting with Phil I would like to take my dads pre-64 Model 70 Featherweight in 30-06 as long as he was there to back me up. Don't know if he would approve of the original K4 Weaver on it though, although it has never let me down. I am very comfortable with that rifle and can shoot it well. Those big bears scare the heck out of me though.

Link to AK side arms thread which links to Phil's deal.

Heavy hard cast, lots of Mojo, experience, big cajones...

DF

Dirtfarmer;
Evening sir, I trust this Palm Sunday treated you well.

As I happened to be reading said thread to refresh my memory of events, I brought the aforementioned link along.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11429811/5

Phil is definitely in a small group now I should imagine - perhaps a single member, I can only speculate. He's surely all you stated and then some in my view.

All the best to you all this Easter sir.

Dwayne

Thanks, Dwayne.

Phil's undoubtedly in a really small group as you mention.

I'm guessing a group of one.

This thread now open for nominees...

DF

Thanks Dwayne! The link answers my questions.

You've all hit on my Point. Phil is a cool professional. Not being a cool professional, I'd like to hear what he'd recommend for the average Joe. I know I can kill one with a clean aimed shot at 100 yards from my 30-06. That's not the question.

Yeah, thanks Dwayne.

I set up the post, just forgot to paste the link...

DF

Not a gun writer or bear guide, but, if it's what I had to use I'd stoke it with 140 gr partitions with a 1.5-5 Leopold up top and practice, practice, practice!

I don't care if the Virgin Mary herself were to tell me, given all things EQUAL when it comes to shot placement, I'll take a larger caliber over a 6.5 ANY DAY on a bear or any other Dangerous Game hunt.

Well, Jorge, guess that takes you (and me) out of the Fire "stunt shooters" club...

To me, a big bear hunt is too expensive and takes way too much time to find out the least round needed to kill a bear.

From what I've read, shots can be in a hurry (especially follow up shots), perfect shot placement sometimes a challenge. I'd rather have a round that'll bore thru, able to hit vitals from just about any angle.

If I'm gonna spend what it cost for such a hunt, I'll be toting my .375, probably stoked with 250 gr. TTSX's/RL-15. I can shoot it pretty well, but still would practice a bunch and then some more. Not too unlike my Cape Buff, Zim bound buddy who can shoot his full house .416 Rigby/Ruger 77 offhand, most landing in a 6" bull at a hundred, those outside the black, real close. He'll practice every chance he gets until he leaves at the end of May. That boy is serious...

I am too...

DF

gunner, someone who can afford such a hunt can afford at least a cheap 30-06 and stoke it with your favorite the 200 gr. NPT.

Or borrow one of your big boomers...

And promise not to scratch it up...

DF

I shot an "easy-to-kill" medium sized bull moose years ago...with my Swede..distance around 150 yards.. 2 140 A-Frames, 2 140 Partitions. The all four shots landed basically broadside catching the muscles of the legs as well as the lungs over a period of time that it took to reacquire the target among a small group of animals. The animal finally keeled over when a buddy snuck in and poked a 180 Core-lokt (30-06) which ventilated the lungs and both side of the animal. The best penetration I got was the Partitons, which were against the hide when they stopped; the A-Frames stuck in the muscle mass of the offside leg. Having had a much smaller animal, a small DLP bear 'catch' (and hold) a 12 gauge Brenneke slug , broadside, at under 30 yards, I'm not a big fan of playing bullet/rifle limbo. Not saying it can't be done....

If anyone cares to read the stories and advertisements of the old Alaskan bear guides; men like And Simons, Hal Waugh, Jay Williams, Slim Moore, Bill Pinnell, Morris Talifson and dozens and dozens of others with a lifetime of killing bears you will find out that I am in a rather large group of people who recommend rifles in the power class and capabilities of the 30-06 for bear hunters. The bears of today are no bigger and our bullets are better .

Some of those guides, just as I did after my first serious charge, eventually chose larger calibers with which to back up clients. As you take any advantage when you have to wrinkle a wounded bear out of the pucker brush when a client misplaces a shot, but many guides had enough faith in both their 30-06 and their shooting ability that they continued to use their 30-06's .
There were even a few guides who thought the .270 big enough !

Having read WAY to much Cactus Jack as a Young fella, and re-reading a certain Warden's take on that (...."a cool and deadly shot."), I went in that direction as well.

It worked.

GTC

Phil,

A question. A guy shows up at your place, equally skilled with .375 and '06, can shoot either one pretty well, is that a draw? Proper bullets, both guns, of course.

Curious.

DF

See now we are getting to what I wanna know

" a cool and deadly shot" is certainly a deciding factor. Or as Doug Kok, a Zimbabwean PH put it " I may not be a good shot, but I am an experienced shot"

As far as I am concerned it is their hunt and the rifle they use is entirely their choice. With the bullets available today if a hunter told me he wanted to use a 6.5 and told me he was using good bullets and had faith in it I would give him a chance. I have even had archery and handgun hunters.

If they wound it and it is in danger of getting away I will kill it as the law requires. And I have found that I am less likely to have to do that if they are using a familiar caliber than if they are using a new big Bore that they felt they "needed"

Thanks, Phil.

Hadn't considered archery and handgun hunters.

DF

LOL, I'd gladly loan a boomer, wouldn't even bitch too bad about a few "making a new history" scratches.

10-4 Klik, I did wonder about the 6.5, but of course don't know the Mans situation, were I too specifically book a BIG bear hunt the smallest I'd carry would be my 9.3x62 firing 320 gr Woodleighs at 2400 fps.

Better still would be my 400 Whelen with 400 gr Woodleighs at 2255 fps, both are 98 Mausers and wear 1.5-5 Leupolds.

Don't remember who wrote it, but I remember reading an article debating such an issue. The writer opined that if he could build the ideal rifle to stop a big bear, it would be a full auto firing bowling balls!

I think more like you, gunner.

DF

If you ever get the opportunity then the rifle is actually a smaller part of your budget. I mean we are probably talking 25 grand all totaled for a guided hunt. Rifle and glass, probably $1600 is reasonable. The Ruger Guide gun in 375 Ruger goes for $1100-$1200, $500 or so on glass.

I've offered to wager with anyone willing to take the time to research it, that more bears have been killed with the .30-06 than the next two cartridges combined.

Seems to me that the 30-06 suffers from being boring to many. But it is much more often under-rated than over-rated, if it gets much notice at all. 'Twas my first 'big' rifle and I think more of it these these days than I did when I first acquired one 30-some odd years ago. The fact that it has accounted for many tons of moose meat across our table and without drama might have something to do with that.

As Phil noted, the bullets are better now too, making the round more than a little bit better than it was a century ago.

What so many gun geeks overlook is that the bullet, and the bullet only, is what does the killing and with all the great bullets we now have, if you place your shots carefully you can safely get by with a lot smaller caliber than in the past.

Even a 9mm

But with modern bullets the 300's, 338, 375, 416 and 458 are more effective as well.

Age, and I suppose what passes for a certain amount of "Wisdom" have caught up with me, and with all due respect to Jack O'Connor, unless I just absolutely have no other choice, am NEVER choosing a .270 as a large Bear (or large anything else) Caliber.

Were it required, I'd be driving a 160 Gr. monolithic or partition at the highest velocity that kept me out of the "I accept sticky bolt lift" camp, and shoot with somewhat puckered confidence.

Stepping up to a 200 Gr in a .30-06, in and around 2550 to 2600 ? .....gotta agree, that's one that I shoot WELL, and likely plenty big enough.

GTC

Phil,

what bullets do you use in your rifle and pistol?

Looking for specifics.

Thanks.

Not a writer but for me personally. Brown bear would be a very reliable 375 HH with 270 TSX. Manageable recoil and ammo available everywhere. For black bear 3006 with 165 TSX. Very proven combo and again very common. Matter of fact you could do just about anything anywhere with that combo. I know it might be a bit boring but very very proven......YMMV

When I was doing still working for Wolfe Pub I tested and used virtually all the rifle bullets and have specific bullets that I like for specific calibers. I really like the 200 gr Partitions in my 30-06, the 270 TSX in the 375's and 500 gr Hornady Innerbonds or 450 Swift A-frames in my 458.
On handguns I like either heavy, hard cast lead or the Sierra FN jacketed match bullets.

Thank you Phil.

This is the stupidest thread since the one asking about the SKS being okay for deer.

I think it's patently irresponsible for people to give firearms to animals. Giving a bear a gun is just asking for trouble. Besides, most animals do not have opposable thumbs, so handling a rifle is extremely problematic, regardless of the chambering. . .






. . . oh. Nevermind.

Thumbs up to that one!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Wait til they learn how to drive!

One of my favorite Far Sides of all time...

If I had the inclination (and moolah) to hunt a big bear my weapon of choice would be...Phil Shoemaker (or his daughter or son).

Can't trump experience. I would just do every little thing exactly as they told me.

Oh, and I'd bring this.... .

There is a show on the telly this week called Destination TQ where the host shoots a Brown Bear on camera with a shiny brass action Henry in .30/30 using open sights.

1st shot dropped it at 65 yards and then 2 follow up shots ended it.

He also shot a large moose on the previous show. One shot and down like a stone.

I recommend you listen to Phil. You don't need to justify your purchases, take what you enjoy shooting.

But, but, this is America. The whole point is to justify our new purchases....

When I started guiding it seemed like the majority of hunters brought their older, well used rifles. Today I would say at least half bring new magnums purchased for the hunt.
After all, what better excuse is there to buy a new rifle ?

Flip side?

Ima gonna drop a pile of money on a hunt far away and buy a new rifle I can barely shoot!
lol...

Us Loonies never criticize someone for buying a new gun, just 'cause...

BUT, you gotta be able to shoot it.

I find it kinda scary, seeing some youngster out in the deer woods with a new "big box" high powered rifle, new camo duds, all excited, ready to rock and roll. Not a confidence builder...

I think I can understand how Phil and other veteran guides must feel when confronted with, although a more mature hunter, a nonetheless all too familiar scenario. And, don't ya know, "old ugly" is gonna get some action...

DF

That's not a "this", those are a "these"

Not criticizing someone (anyone) buying a new gun.
BTDT.

Just agreeing w/ Phil about a DSMFer that's never shot anything beyond say a 243 showing up w/ a 338WM for their bear hunt. Hey! The guy at Cabelas even bore sighted it for him!!

Anyone foolish enough to shoot one of those in a serious chambering deserves EVERY headache they get... ridiculous POS stock for anything recoiling at 270 levels and above...

I personally if hunting brown bear it would be with my 338 RUM and 250 gr Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX

Great guns"...been watching a 300 WM in one of these in a local shop.....likely won't buy it but is priced really nice......with a nice Leupold scop....must resist.....

A lot of truth there Bender,when I came to Alaska in 68 I bought a .338, I had a lot trigger time with various center fires ,my first shot out of my new .338 gave me a trophy,a hole in my lip and a tooth mark in the stock.

I guess it shows to go ya not one stock fits everyone. The largest cartridge I've shot in one of those was a .338Win w/250gr factory ammo. Honestly I didn't think it was that bad considering.

Ditto, but I did install a Pachmayr decelerator pad which was a great improvement!

Sorry, but recoil has huge objective components and getting around those is not possible with boat paddles. The subjective components can be dealt with as you wish, but shooting the same rifle in Len Brownell's original stock as a comparison would show a vast improvement. And there is plenty of room to improve that.

Agreed. Hardest kicker I ever shot was a boat paddle in 270. Shape and makeup of that stock just turned it into a hatchet

I have a 300 WM that came in a boat paddle stock. I shot it a lot and killed quite a bit with it. I got a Mickey for it from Karnis and bedded it for it. For a little test I took both stocks out shooting and swapped them out while at the range. Huge difference in felt recoil. The boat paddle ain't been on it since...

Guess it wasn't the stock then.

I can believe that.

Karnis redid the stock on my 98 Mauser a few yrs back. GOOD work and a GOOD person.

Very good person. Often wonder how he is doing and wish he was still on here.

If I could afford a Brown Bear hunt I could also afford a model 71 in .348 Win. Then I would merge the two.

Great! it's about time, I'll be down in the fall so you can shoot my 8 Bore, I'll record drops and ranges through a spotter while you're icing down with an Advil I.V. between volleys.

That would be beyond cool to drill a big bear with a M-71 packing 250 gr Woodleigh or Alaskan Bullet Works softs!

That would be too much fun for an old dude.

I'd rather watch you shoot it.

DF

But 400 grs of Black is relatively mild under an 800 plus grain round ball, it only stings for a minute, honest!

Your Friend,
Pinocchio

Amen to that Gunner! That 250 Woodleigh is pretty wicked at 2300.

10-4 beretz, I'll switch over to those when I get all the Barnes 250's shot up.

SIGN ME UP!

I heard those were darned good too.

I just used the the 250 Woodies cause they shoot like crazy in my 71.

I'll sign you up for a years supply of 'pain patches' first.

198 ft-lbs free recoil with the 400 gr load, she boots buddy!

Didn't see that pic before I posted, that sombitch looks good beretz, glad to hear they shoot well in your 348, I'm using RL-17 under the 250 gr. Barnes bullets.

I'll pop an armadillo with it.

Sounds like it would work for bear!

Bought a 30-06 on the classifieds. Problem solved lol

LOL, you damn sure will POP!!!!! one!

That couldn't help but knock the snot outta any bear, ball patches up to .825" and weighs iirc 820 grains.

Would make very easy pickings for the buzzard cleaning crew Elk.

Congrats mjbgalt, you gonna load 200 gr Partitions in it?

Yup,bite size pieces.

I dig 17 in the 348

That will work, irons at 100?

When and if I get to take trip out west partitions will go with me. For now I will load a 150 to 2700 and hunt deer

Yes sir. Just a plain old Williams receiver sight.

10-4 mjb, familiarization on deer and other game will make the big hunt cake, good luck too you!

Perfect, there's an old factory similar bolt peep on the 348 I got from BSA, I can actually feel how hard and what the 348 is unleashing upon firing it, bet you can too, that old sombitch leaves with quite the attitude. LOL

For sure. I dig that rifle. Favorite lever gun made. Bank vault is the on,y way to describe it.

Yup, never hunted bear, but couldn't imagine what you couldn't go in after and root out safely and quickly with a 348 lever rifle so loaded,

A man would damn sure have to keep his nuts gathered up tight during Go Time with one of those big bastards, no fu-k ups!

Nice, looks to be in about perfect shape.

DF

For sure Gunner. Going toe to toe with the big bears is a dream I hope to make happen soon.


DF, it has a couple of loving marks but otherwise in pretty great shape metal wise.

Moose leg bones tend to be bigger and harder than any bones that bears have. So I tested a few some typical loads a few years ago by smashing unskinned lower leg bones.:



45-70 / 12 gauge


A few more similar tests using a 45 Colt Redhawk vs moose leg bones. (Wet newspaper and/or pulp were the back-up stop material.)



These were stout Colt loads; 23.0 grains W296 @1200 +/- fps



The following are a 45-70 bullet test which show a few premiums fired into paint solids (a previously frozen 5 gallon bucket of latex paint which had "congealed"):



l-r 400 Barnes Original, ???, 400 Swift A-Frame, 400 Woodleigh Weldcore

Sweet!

Klik, you just have way too much fun!

If I ever had the opportunity to hunt brown bear, I would go with a 9.3X62 with a 286gr Partition. The recoil doesn't seem bad at all.

I would also add that if there is any difference between the 375 H&H / Ruger and the 9.3x62 it is minor as I have never been able to tell any difference in killing big bears

That's good to know Phil, as in my (limited) experience, the 375 H&H is just a little above my pain threshold when it comes to extended shooting. The 9.3X62 to me at least, is quite a bit more comfortable to fire.

I have been hunting and target shooting in Alaska for the last 49 years. I knew/know several Bear guides. Some of them were Polar Bear guides in the old days. My wife's brother and "ex" worked for P&T. Most of those folks carried the typical Alaskan Hunting Rifle-- a short barreled Winchester M70 in .375 H&H. A lot like the guns that F&G used to issue to the "Fish Hawks", except the stocks were not painted red. Her brother Jimmy had a .358 Norma. Lately-say in the last 20 years, several of the guides have changed to a .416 or .458. Their comment is that they don't really kill any better, they do it with a wee more finality. I even knew an assistant guide who had a short barreled .460 Weatherby that had been mag-na-ported. I understand that the big bears made him somewhat nervous. I actually got to shoot that gun a few years ago. Not bad on the recoil, but "Big Flame". That being said, Those were guides who had to protect their hunters, so a "Stopping Rifle" is what they carried. Their hunters carried a variety of guns. The good old .30-06 or a .300 magnum probably being the most common. A gunsmith buddy of mine used his .35 Whelan and it worked extremely well. Kind of what Phil is trying to say, there is a difference in what the hunter carries and what his guide carries. As the hunter, you can carry what you use where you are from. Choose the proper bullet and practice a lot. The guide is there to back you up so that you have a "Bucket List" experience. Remember, you do have to know where to shoot the bear and then place your shot correctly.
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9.3 is a bit easier on the shooter than .375 H&H, but to me a lot of that is subjective, depends on the gun, fit, weight, etc., etc.

I traded my 9.3, kept the .375. I could shoot them both about the same, figured I'd use the .375 more, wouldn't worry about skinning it up, am more comfortable putting it where a fancy gun shouldn't go. 9.3 is a great round, more efficient than the .375, the latter maybe a bit more versatile.

DF

No kidding, stalking and killing one of the great bears would be a campaign of lifelong dreams and massive respect!

i don't know how much truth there is in this, but was told once this military surp was popular in bear country.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannlicher_M1895#Conversions
the steyr 1895/30, or a 1895 straight pull cut down in 1920.
8x56R with a typical 200grain pill.
they are kind of funky, and they do recoil.
short in length.
often wondered what in reality they would do to a bear.
what is cool is the clip dropping down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mx-uvD0AN8Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0kMFkhjN2Y

If it's all going to be perfect, then almost anything can be made to do the job. The new Savage and Ruger machine rifles routinely shoot sub-half-minute Creedmoor groups. You can theoretically slip one right down the ear canal and not even put a hole in the hide. Trouble is, out in the wilderness, things are rarely, almost never, perfect. That's why I want some survivable margin for error, such as provided by a heavier rifle.

W.D.M. Bell was famous for brainshooting elephants with a small caliber Rigby, but there is a reason that's not legal in most countries in Africa any more. And it has to do as much with wounding and losing a magnificent animal as it does with the danger of Timbo turning the hunter into Bwanabutter.

So the only way I would hunt a brown bear with a 6.5 Creedmoor would be with a guide beside me who has a .375 H&H. Or maybe a .416!

I realize you were being funny there... but OlBlue from here did shoot a Kodiak brown bear exactly through the earhole without ruining even the slightest bit of hide! But (butt?) he did it the hard way. First shot went through ribs broadside and the next was a Texas heart shot. The bullet hit a butt cheek and traveled full length through the bear, exiting EXACTLY through the ear hole! His stunt rifle that day was a 375H&H with 300gr NPTs, btw.

Blue gots skeelz, man!

I'll never live it down😉 --- Mel

Not just everyone has poked a bear in the butt and the ear at the same time!

True story: I think it was Peterson's Hunting many years ago had a story about a young guy who shot a record or near record, or anyway -- a big bull, in one of the western states with a 300 Win Mag. IIRC, it was somewhere around 400 yards.

The story went on -- unbelievably so -- to note that though Cabelas bore-sighted the rifle at purchase on the way out west the young man had not had time to fire it before the hunt. 😳 😯

Yeah, I was making an attempt at humor, but about a serious subject. I am still a firm believer in using enough gun, as OlBlue obviously did, when hunting anything that bites! And he believes it too if he was willing to carry the extra weight and put up with the extra recoil of the heavier caliber rifle. Even so, he suffered an obvious bullet failure because it WAY overpenetrated, right?? (grin)

Now I have a question: Can he do it again? And where do I buy a ticket to watch that show?

I'd personally hunt them with 6.5 or 7 with a 160 if I had the chance and was hot on that particular rifle.

There is not an animal on this continent that cannot be HUNTED and cleanly dispatched with 260 or 708 a stout bullet and good placement IMHO.


Perfection in this case (Brown Bear) is a 338WM IMHO

I know Heimo Korth, who I guess is featured on some reality TV show, don't know as I have never owned one, but he is also featured in the book The Final Frontiersman. For the past nearly 40 years his hunting rifle, for moose, grizzlies and caribou has been a 22-250 ! And he has taken probably 8 or 10 grizzlies with it since I have know him.

Heimo is a hunter's hunter. One of a kind. And he feeds that 788 22-250 Federal blue box!

After seeing how a .308 win took down a 9.5' brown bear with Federal Fusions at 2450 fps and a 30-06 with Yellow/Green box 180s at 2700 fps also took a 9.5 brown bear with one shot, I would have no qualms about using a 140 A Frame at 2800 fps from a 6.5 of any sort.

I will never in the rest of my life ever go on a Brown Bear hunt and do believe any cal will kill a Bear, but it really comes down to one that will kill it really quick in a life and death situlation bear attack. So as Elmer Keith used to say, carry enough gun. One of the best light weight Bear Guns in my opinion would be a lever action heavy loaded 45-70.

Killing one and stopping one are two totally different things. FWIW.

Yet most folks carry a .44 mag or 10mm for their stopping a charging bear choice

I love reading any thread about big bears.

An interesting "bear gun" photo:

http://vilda.alaska.edu/cdm/ref/collection/cdmg21/id/99

Bruce

Based on empirical evidence, I suspect charge-stopping cartridges begin around .35 caliber--at least in handguns, like the S&W 9mm Phil Shoemaker used to stop the last brown bear that charged him.

Haha that's my point. Folks say you need a bigger gun to stop a charging bear than hunt one, yet they turn their nose up to smaller cartridges to hunt with while carrying that pistol on their hip in case one charges.

And yes everyone knows Phil stopped one with a 9mm.

I've never stopped a charging bear. But I've stared down a big porcupine. I was glad I had my .416 with me.

even a Blind Hog finds a acorn every now and then

Dang, now that I've seen that add I can quit packing this big, heavy aluminum frames 9mm !

This blind hog is not recommending anyone carry a 9mm if they know they are not capable with one or don't wish to, but I have found more than a few acorns over the past four decades.

My heavy gun is a .35 W with 250 gr Partition's and or Interlokts.

Karnis doctored the Boyd's JRS stock and now it fits me like a glove.

Guess that would be my choice.

Mike

The two biggest magnum's i own at the present is the 300 and 338 RUM'S, plus my 338-06 Ack Imp

HAHA....yeah but you are really good using a blind walking cane to find them acorns is the only reason.

Just make sure when hunting those acorns with a blind walking cane you done eat a few deer turds

But how many shots did Phil fire into that bear, as an expert marksman with a pistol, to say nothing of his marksmanship skill with rifles? Very few, if any, have his confidence or skill level.

And remember the native girl in Alberta that killed a record-breaking grizzly with a single shot .22LR. She brained it with one shot. But the bear was unaware of her presence just a few feet away.

My oldest son has killed dozens of wart hog in Africa in the same way --using HIS single-shot .22LR. They were coming in to a water hole and he was up a tree waiting for them. He shot them for protein -- in the ear hole. When he missed the ear hole he had a merry chase around the forest. I saw one of those skulls pockmarked by .22-cal holes. He was a licensed resident big game hunter -- and missionary. At home on furlough in Canada, he did a bear hunt with me. He didn't take a .22LR of any kind, but his M94 XTR in .356 Winchester loaded with 220gr Speers that I'd done up for him. Yes, it worked on bear.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

CZ550,

I have read different stories of the big Alberta grizzly. It wandered by while Bella Twin and her friend Dave Auger were hunting grouse with the single-shot .22, and the only reason she shot was because it came so close she was afraid it might charge. In at least one version the bear looked at them--the reason she shot, so it might not have been unaware of them. Also, somebody examined the skull later, and though the first shot reportedly dropped the bear, there were quite a few .22 holes, probably to make sure the bear stayed down!

bea175,

I'll also note that "Nine Mil Phil" was using a 9mm bullet specifically designed for deep penetration, and has thoroughly tested it beforehand, as he does with all hunting bullets. One went through the shoulder area of the bear, and its nose was found poking out of the muscle just under the hide on the far side. It may or may not have been the bullet that "killed" the bear, but certainly contributed, as bullets which completely penetrate any animal's vitals tend to do.

I recall being at a friend's 'skinning garage' a few years ago when they peeled a modest bear's skull out of the hide...and there in a divot in the skull near the eye was a misshapen copper washed chunk of lead quite obviously resembling a 22 LR slug. I don't recall hearing about anyone getting torn up after '22-ing' their way through a bear confrontation, so perhaps 'karma' was imposed on someone's fish rack instead. Ultimately, the bear met with a 3/8" fire-pipe shortly after a spring wake-up call though.