I'm relatively new to reloading and have only used FL sizing dies but as I read more and more, it sounds like I only need to neck size. Is this preferred for brass life and accuracy? Do you get better accuracy from only neck sizing since the brass is formed to that chamber?

I only have one rifle per caliber so the brass is only shot from one rifle.

Should I start getting neck sizing dies and not use the FL dies? All of my die sets are FL right now


Also, I have a 25-270wsm that I shoot. Once the brass if FL sized from 270wsm and shot from the rifle, I can neck size then, correct? Would this require a custom neck sizing die? or would any 25 cal neck sizing die work?

Thanks all!

I'll add to what Mathman said. As far as accuracy, it depends. I have some rifles that I can make straighter ammo. (less runout) by neck sizing, and others that are straighter using an FL die to minimally size the case. It depends on the brass, your chamber, and the die. Learn how to minimally size if you use a FL die.

I would agree that a bushing die is best because it allows you to select the right bushing to get just enough neck tension, without needing to use the expander ball to expand the necks back to the right size after going into the die. The expander ball can pull the necks out of alignment.

You can get full-length bushing dies too, that size the case and allow you to use bushings to get the right neck tension without using the expander ball.

Clear as mud, eh?

This is one of those situations when you wish you had the questioner at your loading bench where all could be made clear in a very few minutes.

Need to read a whole lot more. Might include some specifics like Fred Sinclair's out of print guide, Precision Shooting's out of print guides and Zediker's various guides. Start with Zediker's latest book and tolerate the prose style as necessary. For hunters with factory chambers there is little need and negligible benefit from applying short range bench rest techniques that do work beautifully with custom chambers and neck turned cases.

Only doesn't work at all. Notice FREX that Redding will package a neck sizer along with a shoulder bumper because both are eventually necessary. Preferred? sometimes not always. Many will choose to full length size for autoloaders, break actions and other firearms where ample clearance helps feeding and extracting.Better accuracy? Maybe. Certainly for short range bench rest in short range bench rest chambers in short range bench rest rifles not necessarily in other rifles. Say the neck is off center with respect to the chamber then fitting the case followed by rotating the case in the chamber next time will impact accuracy adversely. Sometimes having the case sit on the bottom of the chamber is better. As noted not using FL dies in the sense of never using FL dies is not an option. From time to time shoulder bump is necessary. Also reading up on the dreaded doughnut is not only a good idea it's eventually essential after neck sizing only.

Likely enough a bushing neck sizing die made for the .270 WSM - assuming such exists - will work with the bushing of your choice. A neck sizing die made for .25-20 surely would not. There have in the long ago past been purely neck sizing dies made and marketed as somewhat close to universal. These are no long common in the market place.

Bottom line. A little learning is still a dangerous thing. Like a low hours motorcyclist or a low hours pilot it's a time of not knowing what isn't known. Much safer sticking to what works and building hours while researching and reading and building a knowledge base.

yep... clear as mud!

So, I'll read up on the Lee Collet dies or the interchangeable ones you speak of.

How do you minimally size with FL dies? The dies I have now size and decap in one operation. Separate decapper?


I wish I could be at the bench to learn some of this....

I full length size, because I have multiples of some calibers.

By not following the directions that come with most of them. Those directions lead to brass sized down enough so it will work in almost any chamber, not just the one it came out of. Minimally sizing means adjusting the die down into the press just enough so the sized brass smoothly chambers in the rifle from whence it came.

All I can testify to is my own experiences. I load for the 243, 7mag, and 7-08 presently. I had used either RCBS or Redding FL sizing dies and seaters up until I started using Lee collet neck sizing dies and Lee bullet seaters. My runout decreased in every instance, and I got notably more accurate and consistent loads because of it. I'll use neck sizers over FL sizers every time.

For years I was very anal, neck sized with Redding competition neck dies, used a jeweler's scale with tweezers (+/- 0.05gr), competition seating dies, etc. Even tried the Lee's stuff. Then last year I used a guy to work up loads: I can't anymore at my house- 8 horses, cows, etc and going to the range in the summer heat was impractical. Anyway, he works up POI loads, not groups. He shoots one, takes the rifle inside lets it cool down, shoots again, etc.

He uses RCBS FL dies with the generic seaters and duplicates the one holers I had shot for years.

I have since gone to Whidden custom non bushing dies and have been very happy.

Bottom line- it ain't rocket science as long as you do everything the same (precision is repeatability), but absolutely do what satisfies the 90% between your ears. That's all that counts.

CJC73,

I highly recommend neck sizing

I would recommend the lee neck die over the bushing neck die for several reasons

1. The lee die sizes from the inside of the neck. If the neck wall of your brass isn't uniform thickness it doesn't effect the straightness of the neck. Because of this you don't have to turn necks which doesn't help anyway if your not shooting a custom rifle.

2. Bushing dies size from the outside of the neck. If you don't turn your necks inconsistency in neck wall thickness will leave you with a crooked neck. Again, why waste your time turning necks when you won't see it on paper in a factory chambered rifle.

"A FEW OTHER REASONS TO USE THE LEE NECK DIE"

The lee collett neck die you don't use lube on the case so you have no nasty mess to clean up 😀😀😀
The lee die costs much less
The lee die produces less run out if your not neck turning (less run out usually translates to improved accuracy)

A FEW THINGS YOU SHOULD KNOW

The lee neck die deprimes and sizes the neck at the same time
The instructions are not the best so if you decide to go that route come ask a few more questions.
You can usually neck size 4 or 5 times before you will have to full length size to push the shoulder back so you can still chamber your brass. In other words keep your full length dies because you will still need them on occasion.





Trystan

It is more commonly known as "Partial full length" sizing.

Mathman's description of how, is accurate. Leave the die UP a couple of turns from bottoming out.
Use 1 (one) case at first, run thru die, check to see IF it will chamber.
Adjust die down a little & repeat. It's a matter of sizing the cases in YOUR die for YOUR chamber.

Being slow & careful you can get the adjustment set to where you can just barely feel resistance when you
close the bolt. Carefully set the lock ring and check 2-3 more cases. Adjust IF necessary.

I've used P Fl sizing for many years. If done correctly case life is excellent.

** Some guys say they never lock the ring/die.

** I would not consider going thru this procedure every time I loaded ammo.

You must decide for yourself.
Good Luck

Jerry

I'll repeat there's a lot of reading to do starting with Earl Naramore and Phil Sharpe up through George Nonte and John Wooters with a nod to Bob Hagel not forgetting Pet Loads to wind up with Zediker - Top Grade Ammo is his latest - and Barsness. A good selection is available at libraries or interlibrary loans.

I started with a 310 tool, sometimes decapping with a finishing nail and a hammer so I could fiddle with the primer pocket. There is no reason to be hung up on equipment when good results can be had with the simplest of equipment and careful work. There is also no reason to use anything but the most efficient for the purpose - no prizes for cheaper equipment and skill is hard to buy with money.

FWIW I only ever neck size. I haven't full length sized any brass for longer than I remember. In fact when I first started out, nearly 40 years ago, neck sizing was all I was equipped to do.

I reload for a variety of firearms, including break-action, lever action and falling block, as well as bolt actions with front locking lugs and rear. To the extent relevant some use rimmed and some rimless.

I use a mix of Lee Collet dies (which I prefer) and others.

I seem to get good case life - have batches of brass that went past 30-odd reloading cycles before I stopped counting, without ever being FL sized. They do need necks annealed every now and again though.

It seems to me that the greater degree of cold-working inherent to FL sizing may not augur well for case life (though of course you can anneal the neck and shoulder where the bulk of the working occurs), but other than for .303 in my Lee Enfields I haven't run the experiment. With the .303s I found that FL sizing had a definite adverse effect on case life, but that is a bit of a special case: these chambers are cut pretty loose, and generous in the headspace, and so if you FL size you tend to see not only a lot of deformation but also stretching and, quite quickly, case separations. I avoid problems in this regard by taking care to fireform symmetrically, by using a narrow strip of tape or o-ring around the case in front of the rim, so that the case will be pushed hard back against the boltface and expand to fill the chamber. After that I neck size only, and the case headspaces off the shoulder not the rim, avoiding the stretching problem.

I have often read people talk about the need to "push the shoulder back a bit" after a few reloading cycles, or to FL size to ensure that the case will chamber. I've never really seen a need for either. It seems to me that if a case came out of the chamber it simply has to fit back in again, unless you do something to it in the meantime. In fact, given that brass obeys Hooke's law within its elastic limits, the case is always going to end up smaller than the chamber, and it sure can't end up bigger.

The only two likely ways I can see why a case you fired in a chamber won't go back in again easily are either you did something to it which altered its dimensions, in the reloading process, or the chamber was loose or out of round, so the case is no longer symmetrical, and won't fit back in unless oriented the same way as it was when fired. I've only seen evidence for the second one in very loose chambers. I suspect that more often than not it is a result of the sizing method, and that the need to push the shoulder back every now and again is because you were inadvertently pushing it forward due to your reloading process, such as by the effect of partial sizing or by dragging from an expander.

Me too
In fact I don't even own FLS dies for a lot of my guns.
The simple way to see that FL sizing isn't necessary is to rechamber the fired brass.
It will rechamber easily unless your gun is seriously faulty.

Simply, not true. Each time a cartridge case is fired, it loses some elasticity. Eventually, after several firings/loadings neck sizing only, it WILL become difficult to chamber even in the best made guns on the planet.

Thanks guys... i'll experiment with a neck sizer on one and see how it goes as well as Partial FL sizing. and i like the idea of not using lube for neck sizing.

all my rifles are bolt actions.

I'll continue on and experience will grow and learn new things all the time.

Lee also sells just sells the collet die alone.........

or in a 2 pc set w/seater.........good stuff.......

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011198814/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die

CJ,
Try PFLR (Partial Full Length Resizing) first. When neck sizing only after a number of firings some cases will "springback" more than others eventually some cases will chamber easily while others won't, and eventually you'll have to bump the shoulders back on all the brass anyway.

With some of my rifles I get very low runout with PFLR, others I use neck sizing and bump the shoulders back when needed.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but what's the difference between the seater die that comes in Lee's Pacesetter three-die set, and the "dead length seater die" that comes with the collet set? Is it simply that one has the capacity to crimp while the other does not?

Thanks

RM

Probably no difference between the bullet seating dies of RCBS, Redding, or Lee. Neck sizer is the key to the deal IMO.

Yup. I haven't found any accuracy issues with FL sized brass, but I have found partial or neck sized brass that requires extra effort to chamber.

As I'm not a competitive shooter I'm partial to rounds to chamber easy peasy every time and will suffer a group opening up an RCH or two.

Makes sense to me.

CJ,

Just to clarify it is the lee collett neck die that you do not use lube on the neck of the case. Most other type of neck sizing dies do call for the use of lube.

The most important part in all of this is having fun and doing whatever works for you. 😀



Best wishes
Trystan

No, that is not the case. It doesn't "lose elasticity". Cold working doesn't have that effect. What does occur with cold working is a rise in yield stress and hardness, and a reduction in ductility. The Modulus of Elasticity (Young's Modulus) is unaffected, but the increase in YS actually extends the elastic range..

What in fact typically happens when the case is first fired is that it expands elastically, obeying Hooke's law, until the stress is enough (in the area forward of the case web) to exceed the yield stress. You get some plastic deformation, filling the case out to seal against the chamber walls during the pressure peak. As the pressure reduces the elastic component of the strain is recovered, and the case reduces in size accordingly, leaving a clearance between it and the chamber walls.

Now, if you only neck size, the next time the case is fired it expands elastically until it meets the chamber walls. There's no room for any plastic deformation, and after firing the elastic strain is again recovered. No more cold working is taking place, other than in the case neck itself (as a result of neck sizing). Each time you fire it you'll get the same elastic recovery, the same as you'll get the same elastic recovery of a spring (provided you don't over stress it) over and over again.

If instead you FL resize to minimum, then on the next firing there is again both elastic strain (which is recovered) and plastic strain, the latter leading to strain hardening (work hardening) of the case body in the area ahead of the web, and more plastic deformation and of course work hardening when you size it back down again, and the more you do this the more work hardening you'll get.



Once again,if this is occurring it is likely to be a product either of a case which is bulged or otherwise made unsymmetrical by reason of the way it was fireformed, or as a result of something you've done in the reloading process. A case which is evenly fireformed, and which has nothing done to it, will always fit into the chamber it came from, and will have clearance arising from elastic recovery. I don't just base that on theory either, as I said: I have batches of brass which has been fired 30 or more times without full-length sizing, in a range of case types and in a range of firearm types. The point is that if you are having difficulty chambering your loaded rounds after your reloading process, it might be worth considering why that is happening, rather than simply saying "because it loses elasticity" or some such nonsense.

I like my cases to chamber reliably too, both for competition and for hunting. I certainly haven't had any issues arising out of neck sizing in this regard. I have had issues arising out of FL sizing, including case separations directly attributable to it, but that was a bit of a special case. I've also had the odd other difficulty in chambering rounds attributable to the reloading process, such as difficulties attributable to partial sizing (as opposed to neck sizing) pushing shoulders forward and variations in case length causing bulges at the case mouth on crimping. These things are sent to try us!

I should probably add that if the application's critical, or if I change a parameter, I test the ammunition to make sure that it can be relied upon to feed, chamber and otherwise function.

dry mica lube only on my bushing neck dies.........

Lee seater..........all the same

I stand by my own response of sometimes.
Answers will vary with different experiences.
Answers will vary with different firearms. Many will report that actions like the SMLE or the extremely well made Schultz and Larsen in say 7x61 Sharpe and Hart cartridge work better with cartridges full length resized or at least shoulder bumped more often than necessary with front locking actions.

Stress measurements indicate the action changes and maybe changes back in the course of shots fired. It's been suggested the nine locking lugs of a Weatherby Mark V do not bear evenly when the rifle is new but the lugs may setback from firing including proof loads until enough do bear evenly and setback slows or even stops.

Sometimes in some rifles with some loads the bolt has to be pounded open. Sometimes the bolt opens easily with loads known to produce more pressure than desirable. Softer cases, Federal long ago omitted a bunting step and produced cases with soft heads that expanded on one firing and gave rise to complaints when folks went to reuse them, may give problems harder cases don't. Harder cases may give problems softer cases don't.

Time was cases branded as Everlast could be bought and mostly did last a good long time. The dreaded doughnut is a real phenomenon.

Simple answers in paragraphs leave a lot unsaid. For the unsaid portion a more complete answer can be found by reading a number and variety of books on the general topic.

There's more I'd suggest who'd say the opposite, that FL sizing is to be avoided, and that neck sizing is the key to decent case life in SMLEs and other Lee Enfields. FWIW these rifles are still pretty popular here, and are used in service rifle competition, amongst other things, and there's a fair sort of consensus on this.

Gone almost totally to neck sizing for bottle neck cartridges here. Exceptions are handgun and other straight walls like the 45-70.

This is my observation since reloading from 1975. I knew nothing when I started and observed yearly. I also bought AND read many sources on sizing.

Jerry

458 L - I respect you & your contribution here in the fire.

Now that said, My experience is definitely diff from yours per PFL sizing.

I shoot all my reloads w/PFL sizing including BLRs ( some say have little primary extraction )

I currently have Rem Model Sixes (pumps) in 6mm Rem, 270 W, & 30-06 plus I had a Rem 760 in 35 Whelen (custom chamber)
In PROPERLY adjusted dies P F L sizing works perfectly --- For ME.

NOTE : I am meticulous in adjusting the sizing dies.

I'm not saying you are wrong, just saying my rounds chamber very easy/smoothly.

Jerry

More like given a SMLE using something like a Wilson gauge figure the headspace on the case not the rim in a given chamber, and adjust the dies accordingly. Bearing in mind that a variety of bolt heads and other such have been used over the years to adjust the headspace on the rim and then so long as a condition of excess headspace on the case is not created then the defects of case stretch associated with excess headspace on the case shoulder are indeed avoided.

On the other hand the stretch of a SMLE and other rear locking actions is beyond dispute. With Indian guns in 7.62x51 and other full power loads, which the shooter may wisely choose to avoid but some like frex to explore the so called self compensating effect the action will indeed stretch and cases will indeed be short lived because shoulder setback is indeed necessary to rechamber in the same chamber. The world is full of special cases and exceptions. Pope is reported to have reused the same case tens of thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of times. Bob Hagel most certainly exceeded elastic limits of some good steel rifle chambers with his techniques.

Consider such posts as
........... AFAIK his books are still available and like John Barsness are able to go on at lengths impractical on this board but necessary for adequate and still imperfect coverage.

You could pretty well find duplicates of the current discussion on full length or neck sizing searching on this or many another board for weaker actions like Savage 99 and rimmed cartridges like .30-30 or .303 Savage.

My point again and always in this thread is it has never been settled and never will be because it depends. It's worthwhile expanding options, it's unwise to decide there is one perfect always and forever way.

The only thing that I would add to that article now is to use Lee collet dies. They are easier on case necks than using conventional expanders. Collet dies weren't on the market when that was written.

On a personal note, I use collet dies for two other reasons. They are faster and cases don't require clean up.

I partial full length resize as Mule Deer has explained it many times here and in publication. My brass is earmarked for its specific rifle. I use the Hornady headspacers to make sure I bump back the shoulders to the pre-fired case measurement. I have found my Tikka 6.5CM is very particular with this as the Kimber 6.5 CM has a little leeway.
If I recall this was true with the WSM's "back in the day" and I believe it is a function of the 30*/35* shoulder angle. A couple of times I had to "cam over" during re-sizing to ensure easy chambering.

Here's where all of this "bumping shoulders back, etc" loses on me, and admittedly I'm no expert. I will attempt to ask a question if my feeble brain can translate things to my fingers.....


Given you have a proven load, and given you have fireformed brass, and given you use neck sizing dies (Lee specifically). If when you fire that round and eject it normally, how is it that you guys find a reloaded round with that exact same piece of brass, difficult to chamber? It comes out of the chamber normally, it should go right back in normally, right? I've obviously never had any issues.

Personally I've seen far more instances where someone full length sizes and then the round wouldn't chamber. Every few months one reads about it on the campfire. I have also heard of occasional full length sized loads that had a misfire problem. Part of that problem IMO is sizing for maximum head space and a primer seated to deep. Neck sized only rounds have less headspace and an accidental deep seated primer is more apt to fire

In over 20 years I have never had a neck sized only round that didn't chamber and fire.
Brass lasts longer than other methods
Accuracy is the same from what I can tell
I don't have to use lube

I see a lot of upsides to neck sizing but I just can't see where the downside is




Trystan

There is no downside to neck sizing for a bolt gun - especially if you have decided that's not what you believe needs to be done.

Neck sizing, along with flash hole uniforming, primer pocket reaming, neck turning, sorting cases by weight and a few others was born years ago, when competitive shooters were trying to get an edge on their opponents. Case prep was one way to reduce group size. That's because QC for ammunition components wasn't as good as it is today.

I believe that those techniques have a place, but when reloading for a hunting rifle, they aren't usually much help. Hunters cannot take advantage of the tiny gains that case prep offers. I say this because hunters do not always have a stable rest, or shoot at targets of a known distance. They may also be physically fatigued. And components - powders, primers, bullets and cases - are better made than years ago.

If you want to carry out extensive case prep, that's fine. I spent many hours uniforming brass and weighing things in order to build a better load, but personally, I never saw any reason for it in the field.

I buy regular primers, Lapua or Norma cases, powder and bullets. When I use Winchester or Remington cases, I give them a visual check for damage, but do not prep them the way I did years ago. I did not see the benefit when I'm reloading. My case prep consists of making sure the case neck is round. I do this by moving an elliptical expander through the neck far enough to round it out, then remove it. To my mind, extensive prep is a waste of time. I would rather be shooting.

This last thing isn't talked about much in shooting, but confidence and satisfaction with your equipment and ammunition - the psychological part of shooting - is important. Some would argue that confidence is more important than uniformed flash holes or runout in the field. You have to believe that prep will help you in the end. That's part of reloading too.

My long winded response can best be summed up this way: Don't bother doing prep unless you feel it's worth it. Don't think that it is necessary just because a few others are doing it. In other words, don't be shamed or pushed into doing something that you don't see any value in completing.

If you want to experiment down the road, go for it. Otherwise, reloading is a hobby. There is no right or wrong way to do it.

Read this, especially mathman's first response.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/11980840/1






P

Yep, this is very helpful. Also, Lee makes an undersized mandrel for some of their collet dies. I picked one up for my 7x57. There's not much need for a crimp die after that.

Much of this post is the very reason I neck size. It is the quickest and most efficient way to a loaded hunting round that works that I have found for Me. I don't sort brass, bullets, uniform flashholes, primer pockets, hell, I don't even clean primer pockets and I don't tumble brass. I don't lube cases and I don't have to wipe the lube back off

What I do when reloading is..........
Use good brass usually Norma or Lapua and do a visual inspect
I clean the neck shoulder area with 000 steel wool (A good seal is important)
Run a brush 1 pass on the inside of the neck
Run brass through lee neck die
Prime, powder and seat bullet


Last load with a 140 hornady sp produced around 3.5" at 500 yds
The load before that with 147 eld was good for average groups in the 2" range at 500 yds
3 shot groups typical results with many different cartridges and loads.
I do make sure of a few things such as OCW to eliminate verticle string and I load my ammo straight.

Just about as simple a reload procedure as it gets

Its easy to make it complicated.....but its easier if you make it easy 😁


Trystan

And it's working. I wouldn't change a thing.

The reason some people go on about case prep is because they have their own routines. They read magazines that had articles like "Learn the secrets of handloading from top competitors", "Shoot Tiny Groups!" etc. While the techniques discussed certainly did no harm, they didn't really yield much for the amount of time invested.

Years ago, when benchresters were seen doing strange things to their components, some of the hunting crowd copied them. It's perfectly fine, but it's not for everyone. And not absolutely needed.

You're right. Reloading doesn't have to be complicated. On this site though, you have some folks that enjoy fussing with their loads.

Chacun à son goût - each to his own taste.

This, I’m afraid, is bollocks. The problems you get with case life in SMLEs and other Lee-Enfields are associated with the fact that they typically have generously-cut chambers and fairly generous headspace specs. They weren’t designed with reloading in mind after all, but performance under all conditions. People also get themselves caught up in the fact that the later No 4 action was designed to have interchangeable bolt heads in various lengths, wrongly believing that these were needed because these actions “stretch” and so you need a longer one every now and again to take up the headspace. This is not in fact why the bolt heads were designed that way. They were instead to save time in manufacturing: rather than needing to fit up each barrel to get the headspace right, you could simply screw in a mass-produced barrel and then draw from a stack of boltheads to get one which will allow the rifle to pass headspace testing. It also had the side benefit that an armourer, in replacing a barrel in the field, could do the same thing. It really had nothing to do with the action “stretching”, ie undergoing some sort of progressive plastic deformation.

Of course, that is not to say that there isn’t some elastic deformation on firing, but that is a rather different thing. Every action, and chamber, and barrel, undergoes some degree of elastic deformation on firing, due to the pressure in the chamber. In the case of a Lee Enfield you will get some degree of compression of the bolt, and some degree of extension of the action rails, as the backthrust from the case head is exerted on the boltface and transferred to the locking lug surfaces. The thing is though that this compression, which is in the thousands of an inch, is fully recovered when the pressure passes. So too is the elastic strain of the case itself. If the case was to end up too long to fit the chamber after firing either you wouldn’t be able to get the bolt open, because it would still be under compression, or you’d have failure of the action or chamber. In practice however, this is of course not what happens, unless something has gone seriously wrong. The case simply has to fit the chamber after firing.

A good post, and I agree, save that neck sizing wasn't born out of competitive rifle shooting. it has been around since the first reloadable centrefire cases.

I particularly agree with this: "Don't bother doing prep unless you feel it's worth it. Don't think that it is necessary just because a few others are doing it. In other words, don't be shamed or pushed into doing something that you don't see any value in completing" and would add: consider why you are doing each step, and what effect it may have, and don't be afraid to test the stuff you hear or read, because some may be helpful, but some may also be a waste of time, or untrue.

Well, my best explanation of "bumping shoulders" is to bring the headspace nearly back to its "original" distance. If the shoulder on a fired case expands, lets say, .004", your chamber may accept a reloaded case to be bumped back .002" - not the original SAMMI specs. My experience shows that some chambers will not accept a "fire formed" case that hasn't been bumped back. In a field situation you want the round to chamber easily. An exercise I've done is to get a fired headspace number and write it down. Start with a full length sizer so as to only contact about 1/2 of the neck length. Test that cartridge in the chamber. If it needs a little oomph to chamber, I'll screw the sizer down 1/5 turn and
try it again. This will continue until I get easy chambering. Measure it and routinely you will discover you've bumped back the neck to near pre-shot headspace.

Don't forget to test for the fateful head separation with a bent paper clip. Some case configurations need more attention than others, I would say.

Others may explain it differently.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/factors_in_accuracy_two.html

The Lee Enfield has been misunderstood and stories told about it for years. In 40 odd years around small arms, I do not know of a single instance where a bolt head was replaced in the field. Depot level maintenance pers would have replaced them. It would have happened, in Canada at least, as the result of a major inspection.

The bolt head stories started, I believe, when surplus stocks were purchased and shipped to their new civilian owners. Bolts were not kept with the rifle, when in transport. They were shipped in separate containers. When they reached their new civilian owners - a large warehouse or shop - bolts were mismatched, and I've no doubt that the odd rifle had headspace issues. But that was simply because, upon reassembly, no one thought to match them up. They were unaware of the military practice and just started sliding bolts into rifles without checking.



WRT the tricks that competitive shooters employed to gain an advantage over others, those techniques became popular in the hunting world because of magazines. It spawned a whole new accessories industry.

A few gun writers of the day would pen an article about tightening up loads. That was before the Internet, when news traveled slower. In North America, we waited for a monthly magazine for the news. Years ago, it was reasonable for shooters to think that following those procedures would result in vastly improved groups. Of course, few people understood the differences between a factory rifle and a custom made, competition one. And few found much of an improvement using the techniques that competitive shooters routinely employed.

Most likely Mule Deer is monitoring this thread and will soon chime in to set the record straight.

Hooke's Law? Had to look that one up: f=Kx. Elasticity is NOT the same as ductility, YS, WH, etal. I get it. Thanks for clearing it up.

However, the context of my post was with respect to easy (not to be confused with "won't") to chamber/eject full power hand-loads for safe, reliable field use. My assumption being, this is where many of us operate. It's been my experience, operating in this space brass needs to be resized periodically to chamber/extract easily. That said, I don't "hot rod" my loads looking for velocities above well established norms. Quite the opposite, my loads are constructed to work in the field and would be considered slow by many.

Your example assumes/asserts no plastic deformation of the cartridge case wall during the firing process. Is this valid for all brass cartridges operating at max pressures (time and temp too) in the 60-65 kpsi range? Dunno, but doubt it.

If primer pockets stay tight for 10 or so loadings, and the case shoulder gets bumped back periodically, all is good.

My assumption too. FWIW I am primarily a hunter, at least nowadays. While I have done a fair bit of slow-fire competition, most of my competition shooting over recent years has been in competitions where complete reliability of feeding and function of ammunition is paramount, and these include rapid-fire stages and rapid reloads.

The point I’ve made is that if you are having issues with chambering rounds after you’ve reloaded them, look to the cause. It isn’t happening because they somehow got too big to fit in the chamber as a result of firing: unless something has gone very seriously wrong they come out of that chamber not only able to fit right back in but with clearance, due to the recovery of the elastic portion of the strain they've undergone.

I’ve already canvassed the likely causes of them not going back in, and it is up to you whether you accept that or not, but as I said I only neck size, I never “bump shoulders back” and yet my loads chamber easily and reliably, even after the brass has been reloaded repeatedly many times. I wouldn’t do what I do if they didn’t.



Actually that is not what I assumed or asserted. I don’t know whether yours was a deliberate attempt to play the straw man, but I’ll pretend for a moment that it was an accident.

What I said was in fact more or less the opposite. On the first firing of a case typically the case does undergo plastic deformation, unless your chamber is a very close fit to the case. Typically it expands to meet the chamber walls in the area forward of the case web, and while the elastic portion of that strain is recovered the plastic strain is of course permanent. That leaves the case “filled out” if you like, to the shape of the chamber, with a bit of clearance as a result of the recovery of the elastic strain.

If the case is fireformed, and only neck-sized with no other change, then the next time you fire it, the degree of strain it can undergo (ie expansion), in this part of the case forward of the web, other than in the neck, is limited to the same strain as had been recovered elastically the last time the case was fired. That is because it expands elastically, but it then meets the chamber walls, which support it of course and prevent further plastic strain, other than in that part of the neck which had been sized.

Now I did use the word “typically”, and I referred to that part of the case forward of the web, because it is in this thinner section that the significant plastic strain occurs on the first firing, and because it is this part of the case which is relevant to the question of neck sizing vs FL sizing.

While not really relevant to the question of neck sizing vs FL, the web area can also undergo a degree of plastic strain, though typically it is very small, and much less than that typically seen in the area forward of the web on fireforming. A significant degree of plastic strain in the area near the case head area may be indicative of a problem or potential problem: either you are pushing the pressures (or you have brass too soft or thin in the web/head area for the application), which may show up as primer pockets becoming loose; you have a case heading down the road to head separation, which you’ll usually pick up as necking at about the junction between web and case wall; or of course something really bad has happened and you have a failure. If this part of the case is unsupported (as it is in many firearms) expansion due to high pressure and/or soft/thin case head may progress, rendering the case unusable. It is hard to see how this has anything to do with the difference between neck sizing and FL sizing though.

Yes, I think that a lot of what people think they know, and often what people repeat, is based on something they heard or read once. Some of it may of course be true, but some of it may not, or may not be applicable to your own fact situation. Misunderstood, half-remembered stories, or even flat out lies, can become widely circulated as fact. There's any number of things I've heard and read which have turned out not to be true. I remember taking a semester on the philosophy of science, years ago, which went into some detail about this, and the extent to which it pervades all sorts of fields including science itself.

This is true. Often, they repeat what they've read because they want to sound knowledgeable. Some is even made up, on the fly.

Having worked on Lee Enfields as part of my job, I know that headspace was only checked at depot level (third line). First line maintenance had gauges, but they were rarely used. The armourers on 1st line were too busy fixing sights, stocks and quick fixing minor damage. The rest of the time was spent working ranges or performing minor repairs to other firearms.

When I started going to university, I was still working as an other ranks technician and brought that with me. Uni gave me an understanding of why the officers I was working around sounded so foolish. Most were young and could not speak the words, "I don't know." BS flowed out of them like water from the Trevi Fountain. Years later, I would say the only thing worse than the armament officer nosing around was having two of them nosing around.

Are you saying that a piece of brass that is only neck sized will never need the shoulder bumped regardless of the number of firings?...............

Your question is easily answered, take the piece of brass you just extracted and carefully rechamber it.
If it chambers and extracts with little effort you know that your resizing process is the problem.

Lee will also make you a custom neck sizing die to meet your rifle's chamber for a reasonable price. This is helpful if you want to load for a caliber other than their standard sizes.

This whole thread has been useful and informative to me, and among things learned and appreciated, the line above stood out. I've been reloading since 1976, purely for hunting. That's when I first heard of MOA and mostly by dumb luck, developed a ½ MOA load for my 30-06 using neck sizing only. It did not kill big game any better than a nearly 2 inch MOA load I hunted with for one season many years later --- BUT I SHOOT BETTER ON GAME DUE TO CONFIDENCE IN A SUB-MOA LOAD AND RIFLE.

It may not affect anyone else as it does me but there is no question that I shoot significantly better when I KNOW that the rifle will put that bullet exactly where I aim it. It influences my mind more than any one inch variation of group size warrants – but it is real.

So I reload. I do minimal steps, some learned here, with a goal of sub-MOA custom cartridges that feed easy and work without fail in the field.

Call it reloading for the mind.

What happens when you fire a cold piece of brass in a hot chamber. Likewise what happens if your hunting and your chamber is at zero° and you pull a warm round out of your pocket and try to chamber it and headspace is at an absolute minimum. Likewise just because it will chamber I've found accuracy to decrease sometimes rather noticeably when the round has zero room to settle into the chamber. Just because it will chamber doesn't mean setting the shoulder back will not reap benefits.


Trystan

In my experience, and I have some cases that I've fired well over 20 times in bolt guns, if I anneal about every 5 firings, I can get away with using a Lee collet sizer only, and never have to worry about bumping back the shoulder to allow cases to easily go into the chamber upon bolt closing. Before I began to anneal, it was common to have to bump the shoulder back eventually on cases that were fired at high-pressure, like the WSM, or 243, or 270. So I believe that what occurs is that the brass on and near the shoulder gets work-hardened during repeated firings (case stretch under high pressure) and won't "give" under the force of the bolt closing. Annealing the neck and shoulder and a small ways down the case (maybe 20% of the case body) solves this problem. Since I began annealing, I've lost ONE case to head separation, and it was a leftover from the days of bumping the shoulder during sizing. I don't even keep track of the number of firings my cases have now, just a rough estimate of the last anneal per box, and when they start to feel stiff upon neck-size or bullet-seat, I know it is time for annealing again. I rarely find the need to trim anymore either, except on cases with a bit of taper that I lean on pressure-wise, like 223 that I run in the low 60's in bolt guns, and 243 that run up to the mid-60's.

That's what I did for my 6x45mms and 30-303. You just send them a resized case. I believe Hornady started doing that as well, but they will not take an international order. US only. I wanted to try their special order stuff because I like the floating sleeve they use in their seating dies. I think they are concerned with shipping cases through the mail across a border.



Thanks.I wish that I could say it was my idea, but when I taught shooting, confidence building was considered more important than the physical act of pulling the trigger. As an old military instructor told me, "Any jerk can jerk a trigger!" You have to be confident when you pick up a rifle, all the way through. It's along the lines of the Little Engine that Could.

Me too. In a particular .308 where zero headspace opens groups.

0.0015" headspace (shoulder setback) brings this rifle back to a 1/4 minute gun. F-TR rifle.

I only use Forster dies now.Run out is almost non existent using the Fl or NS and their seating dies are superior to all but custom made dies.

I have definitely had 7 mm RM and .300 Win Mag cases that would not load after neck resizing only. I used a FL sizing die to set the shoulder back .004 inch and in each case then they chambered -- but with more effort than new ammo. I admit I did not try to put these cases back in the chamber after firing. I'll do that next time.

So you are saying there is something wrong with my neck-sizing technique? What would that be?

Also, someone said to partial FL size to run the die down to the shell holder and then back off, I don't believe that will work. You have to run the die about one turn past contact and THEN back off some. But you need some device to measure how much you are setting the shoulder back.

Nothing wrong with your neck sizing technique--ol' Dan_Oz is omitting the fact some brass doesn't spring back as much and all brass loses a tiny bit of it's elasticity every time we fire it.

Rarely will PFLR brass not chamber into the same rifle it was fired in. You want to bump the shoulder back .001-.002, and that will determine how far to screw the die down. I use Hornady/Stoney Point headspace gauge.

https://www.hornady.com/reloading/precision-measuring/precision-tools-and-gauges/headspace-comparator-anvil-base-kit#!/

In your case with belted magnums sometimes right above the belt isn't sized enough, especially after multiple firings. There is a die made to address that but cannot remember who makes it. Maybe somebody else can chime in.

Of course, I'm' assuming you're using a neck die to size the neck rather than attempting it with a FL die.

Yes, I was using neck sizing dies, and since PFL sizing fixed the problem, the problem wasn't because of expansion ahead of the belt. Sinclair makes that die you are talking about.

Do you see what I see ? (set to music)

In 40 PLUS years I've never had the problems mentioned in this thread.
P F L sizing works - if you know how to use it !

"It's easy to make loading hunting rounds hard "
We can OVERthink it pretty easily.

Jerry

I'm not saying that you are doing something wrong, but there might be things you could do differently ;-)

The case, when you extracted it, fit the chamber. It simply can't be bigger than the chamber it just came out of, so if it won't go back in after you've reloaded it then it is a matter of understanding why. Among the likely causes, assuming it isn't a problem with the chamber, is the process used to reload. For example if the die you are using is one with an expander ball, pulled back through the neck as it comes out of the sizing die, then drag from that ball may well pull the neck forward, in turn moving the shoulder. Another possibility is if you are partially sizing with a FL die, but have it adjusted far enough that the part of the die meant for the sides of the case is coming into contact with the case, without the part meant for the shoulder itself coming into contact, thereby squeezing the shoulder forward slightly.

There can be other causes too, and I've mentioned a couple of them earlier in this thread.

It is entirely up to you though. I'm just describing what I've found, and what works for me.

I omitted saying that because it is arrant nonsense. I covered this earlier in the thread.

But it's not arrant nonsense any metal including brass work hardens. And it doesn't matter if we squeeze it a lot with a die and lose a lot of elasticity or expand it a little with chamber pressure and lose a tiny amount each time.

I understand the difference between ductility and elasticity.

Although you may be correct a neck die can potentially pull the neck forward--which is why I lube the necks of my brass even when the neck die doesn't call for it. It's easy enough to measure if that happens with my Stony Point gauge.

Tag

Work hardening doesn't "reduce elasticity" That is indeed arrant nonsense. It increases the yield stress, so you might actually say, in layman's terms, it increases the elasticity, in the sense that the stress range over which elastic behaviour is seen is increased, but the modulus of elasticity is unchanged, so you get more elastic strain before yielding. It also tends to decrease ductility




I suspect that you don't.

Oh, and not all metals can be work hardened either.

Casey, what do you exactly mean by "losing" elasticity? I guess in 30+ years in the materials testing arena and having tested all sorts of engineering alloys, I'm curious to what you mean by "lose". I gather that Dan has a materials background and understands strain hardening, strain softening, elastic-perfectly plastic, Ramberg-Osgood, elastic unloading, consumed ductility, etc. and this may be his refined understanding of material mechanics.

Elasticity is the Hookean response of the material..ie the linear stress-strain response. To say a material "loses" that means it's modulus changes over strain cycling; which is absolutely not tne case for cartridge brass or a wide range of engineering alloys. Its proportional limit/yield strength (increases for strain hardening materials) will change assuming plasticity is reached and ductility is consumed. Subsequent plastic strain cycles will have a new characteristic stress-strain response if plasticity has been reached during previous cycles but its elasticity (linear response) will not change or be lost. The unloading stifness would clearly show that.

JF

No one else saw what you saw Jerry because you didn't see what you think. I had problems neck sizing. PFL sizing FIXED the problem. I have never had problems with PFL sizing.

I was wrong about who makes that dies. Larry Willis of Innovative Technologies makes it.


Innovative Technologies

Dan_Oz - so you admit that there can be a problem with regular neck sizing dies possibly pulling the shoulder forward. That seems to me a good reason why I might have had a problem EXCEPT I was using the Lee collet die on the 300 WM. Anyway, I am going to stick with PFL -- it works.

You obviously know a lot about metallurgy but gun writers have been talking about cases losing elasticity for as long as I can remember, so please excuse us for repeating things that so-called experts have written.

Regardless of whether it is reduced elasticity or ductility or something else, do cases become less likely to snap back into position after repeated firings?

without reading the entire thread...

neck size always... if the shoulder needs bumping back,
I use a body die for that....

or just a larger caliber with the spindle removed..
eg: a 260 without the spindle makes a perfect body die for 243..

anneal necks every 4th shooting...

don't go for max velocity most of the time, so that reduces
pressure and doesn't require the brass to worked as hard to
resize....

this gives me pretty accurate ammo, and also great brass life...

40-50 reloads or more...

I did not know that but it makes sense. Will definitely be giving that a try 😀


Trystan

Then I'm glad to know we will never have to anneal the necks of our brass again.........

JF,

Each time our brass is worked--in a die or in the chamber of our firearms--it loses a certain amount of it's ability to springback. That's elasticity as it applies to our brass.

Essentially oz is suggesting we will never have to do anything but neck size brass regardless if we shoot it a bazillion times. I'm not aware of anybody demonstrating that, and given handloaders willingness to tinker it should have been demonstrated a long time ago--if it was true.

Thanks for reminding who makes those dies.

I saw your PFLR because I use it about half the time. I'm mostly interested in making lightweight hunting rifles as accurate as a I can, and to that end concentricity is the goal. I don't care how I get there whether NK sizing or PFLR. And like others I want my rounds to chamber easily and quickly because a fast follow-up shot is always a possibility--especially when jump shooting elk in the timber........

Can you tell us exactly how a Lee collet neck sizing die can yank the shoulders forward during use?

It isn’t a matter of admitting anything, it is what I have said from the start:





Well in that case I’d be looking for another cause. I haven’t experienced that problem with Lee Collet dies, and can’t see how it would occur as a result of using them, but there may have been some other issue at play. There are several possibilities I can think of, and I have little doubt there are others I haven’t thought of too.



And if it works for you, then stay with it. As I’ve said, I have simply outlined what works for me, and why.



As I said earlier:




Elasticity and ductility are two different things, and I think that confusing the two is part of the problem people have with this stuff.



Perhaps I can illustrate it with the above, which is a sort of simplified example of what happens as we apply stress to a metal like cartridge brass. I have taken the diagram from Wikipedia, which actually has a pretty good and simple explanation of this.

What you have in the area between 1 and 2 is elastic behaviour. The strain (ie deformation of the material) is proportional to the applied stress, obeying Hooke’s law. The gradient of the slope is a the modulus of elasticity, aka Young’s modulus, a measure of stiffness. If you release the stress before reaching point 2, the piece will return to its original dimensions. That is elastic behaviour. If there’s no stress raisers or defects you could do this over and over again, and the result will be the same. The item does not “lose elasticity”. That fact is what makes springs work.

Now if instead you continue to apply stress past point 2, the metal starts to undergo permanent (plastic) deformation. In the case of brass this is typically fairly obvious when you are testing it. You reach what is usually called the “yield stress” or “proportional limit”: stress is no longer proportional to strain. If you take it up to point 3, then release the stress, it will recover the elastic portion of the deformation, returning down the dotted orange line shown.

As you can see, this line is parallel to the line from 1 to 2. This means that modulus of elasticity is the same. This is called “elastic recovery. In other words, the elastic part of the defomation is fully recovered, and the permanent deformation is only that part left over, that part attributable to the strain incurred past the yield. and if you take that piece and stress it again to a level less than 3, it will still recover down that dotted orange line, over and over. You’ll also note now that you can stress it to a higher level than you could originally, without it yielding. That is because of the work hardening it has undergone.

Does that help?

You are still going to have to anneal case necks, even with neck sizing only. Of course the more cold working you do the more often you'll need to do it. Go back to my first post in this thread, and you'll see I mentioned it. Perhaps you missed that?

It doesn't matter how often you say it, it is still arrant nonsense.



What is a "bazillion"?

I stopped counting after about 30-odd loading cycles on a number of batches of brass, which had only ever been neck sized, never full length. Eventually you'll probably lose cases in the field, or leave it too long before annealing and split them, or have primer pockets get a bit big from pushing pressures or simply from wear (i have had pistol brass that went so many cycles that the headstamps became hard to read, and the primer pockets on some of those were pretty loose in the end).

As for people demonstrating this a long time ago, there in fact have been such demonstrations, since long before either of us was born. Reloading has been around since the first reloadable cases, not long after centrefire designs came out, and if you look at old reloading gear it is, more often than not, designed only to neck size. Any number of tong tools and straightline tools and Lee kits and our own Simplex presses here are witness to the fact that neck sizing was the norm.

This is epic. Giants of the industry.

No one said there'd be math.

I think what Dan is saying (without looking at that graph) is that if you don't load too hot then you need never do anything but neck size. Perhaps he said that many pages previous.

JGRaider - (BTW, I deer hunted this season with a fellow who says he knows you, named Buzz). I am not claiming that collet neck sizing dies pull the shoulder forward. I'm just claiming that I couldn't rechamber some brass after neck sizing and that PFL sizing fixed it so that I could.

And still trim when needed, I assume?

BTW, for the most part this has been one of the best threads in quite a while.

RM

And anneal cases!

Huntnshoot basically made the same statement without an explanation as Dan Oz was trying to explain . He necksizes annealing every 4 times or so and never has to push the shoulder back.

My thoughts were that the annealing process is allowing the case to then spring back after it is fired creating a bit more room that you otherwise run out of before the annealing process?!?!

I don't know but after annealing my next batch of brass I'm going to skip pushing the shoulder back and see what happens 😀



Trystan