Enough time has passed for folks to appreciate the merits of both cartridges...
OK, so the 280 is caught between the 270 on one side and the 30-06 and 7mm RM on the other; and it was loaded to less pressure than the 270... and Remington made multiple missteps with marketing... blah blah blah...
and the 7mm08 was originally more of a silhouette shooters cartridge and then got picked up by the hunting community...

but if you are a hunter and aren't buying a 270 or a 30-06 or a 7mm RM or a 300 Winmag or a 243 ... and you want a 7... why wouldn't the 280 be more popular than the 7mm08? After all, it offers more velocity than the 7mm08 and American riflemen are all about speed and chasing the 3 with three zeroes...

but the 7mm08 outsells it...

maybe we are more interested in short bolt throws and lighter recoil and handier rifles than we care to admit?

Maybe the future is all about the 243, 6.5 Creedmoor, 7mm08, and 308 and the long action standards will continue to lose ground? Even (gasp!) the 270, and the 30-06?

Dogger

Part of the answer is way more hunters DON’T handload than do.

In factory form the 7-08 is nearly = to the 280 so...

Obviously us handloaders can make the 280 live up to its potiential.

I’ve never owned a 280 BUT if I had bought a 280 before a 270, I’d probably not bought a 270.
IMO as a handloader, if you own a 270, you have a 280 and vice versa.

Jerry

Well, I started using a 7mm08 to shoot high power silhouette. It was just a Remington 700 BDL with a Leupold 12x and I shot in the Hunting Rifle class. For hunting, I used a 270. That was before it became gay. Then, I decided to replace the 12x with a 3-9 during hunting season and take the 7mm08 as a backup rifle. Then it got used on barbary sheep (aoudad), deer and one hapless cow elk. It worked great! I had the 270 re-barreled to 7x57!. That was back in the mid 80s, early 90s when I lived in NM.

I did a little reloading and testing for a Rem 725 in 280 that belonged to my FIL. It was not very accurate and not much faster than the 7mm08. Also, I always thought that the 270, 280, 3006 kicked too much and had too much muzzle blast. I prefer the 7mm08.

It is amazing that the 7mm08 became so popular given Remington's penchant for abandoning their offspring and leaving them to die. Probably it was the silhouette game that saved it, then hunters picked it up. I also prefer a short action. It's my favorite cartridge. Last one I'd send down the road.

I figured the sold about the same.

I'd love to have a 280, but already have a 7-08.

I may be missing out on some recoil and fps, but the critters I shoot dont notice the difference.

also.... the 7-08 is miserly on powder, and it being a short action, is marginally lighter in rifle form.

the downside to the 7-08 is that my 13 year old son discovered it and has absolutely taken over. little fart shot a buck, two pigs and a bobcat this season. his only miss was a coyote at 150 yds, running. everything else died quick.

every time we hunt, he's carrying it. I'm stuck carrying the 243 or 308, missing "my" old rifle. first world problems.

all that to say..... the 7-08 works.

I’ll start by asking another question. Why would anyone buy a 280 instead of a 7mm RM? I think the same answer works for your question as well as mine. Less powder, hence less recoil. Less expensive factory ammo if one doesn’t reload. Slightly lighter rifles with the short action. And hunters have discovered that the smaller cartridge (with today’s bullets) will perform superbly in the field. Honestly, the 7mm-08 will do an adequate job on anything that is hunted with the 280 within the range that most hunters limit shots at big game. Just my opinion and experience.

You all know that I am not a gun writer, but being a large fan of the 7mm-08, I felt compelled to post the above

To the original question......timing, marketing, and the appearance of better bullets since and during the appearance of the 7-08.
And I prefer the 280,

Neither ever stirred a bit of interest in me at all.

Lower recoil

I think Remington's utter and complete failure in marketing the .280 is just something it will never shake. The 7-08 got off to a good start without all the screwups...that coupled with the fact that it's got no flies on it gets us to where we are now. For my part of it, I prefer the descendants of the .30-06 over the .308's progeny. The .280 is one of my favorites and will remain so.

I have seriously considered this cartridge; all I would need are the dies. Have plenty of 30-06 brass to resize, plus the 7mm bullets, primers and powder. It's just buying the gun. Yet, on the flip side already I have a 7mm-08.

I have a .280 and my wife shoots a 7mm08. They both work great. The .280 shoots a bit flatter and that's nice in open country. It also works a little better with 160 grain bullets. The 7mm08 kicks less and is nicely compact. I'd say any practical difference on game is very slight. A choice between the two would be mostly about the rifle chambering the cartridge and personal preference.

I saw 3 Browning abolts in 7MM08 for sale last weekend. The last 280 I saw for sale was a beat up Remington 740, and its probably still for sale. I have probably seen more 280AI than 280 over the past few years.

As several posters have said, Remington's screw-ups spelled disaster for the 280. It's really a good cartridge, as it will do everything it's main competition, the 270, will do. Also if push became shove, it's got a tad more horsepower than the 7-08. Remington did things right when they introduced the 7-08. It was marketed good, paired with some good rifles, and was a success from day one. The 7-08 is not any better than any of it's main competition, it just shows you how big of a difference marketing can be.

And I've had both.

One thing I’ll tell you. A couple 7mm-08 shells in your pocket while you hike isn’t as irritating as a couple 280 etc shells. The 4 I pull out of the rifle at the end of the day line up perfectly in the ashtray of my Truck but anything 30/06 length (280) and up doesn’t lay in there just right.

ha, thats as good a practical reason as any!

The 7mm08 works in a short action and the .280 not. Perhaps the biggest blunder Remington made with the .280 was renaming it the 7mm Express, this caused lots of wrecked 7mm Magnums from firing the 7mm Express. Remington realized this folly for what it was and pretty quickly changed the name back to .280.

SA vs.LA is probably a big deal to some as the SA has less recoil and still quite a bit of horsepower in a more compact platform

I was actually looking for a 6.5 Creedmoor, 270 or a 7-08 when I bought my current 280. I don't get too hung up on chamberings, mainly wanted something that pushed a heavier bullet and left a bigger hole than my 24 caliber, even though it has never failed on our Mid West deer.

I think I would have been just as happy with the 08 flavor.

Do you have any DATA on that ?

I lived thru the 280 - 7 Express - 280 Debacle and yes, I "heard" the rumor but have never seen and facts. Very interested.


Jerry


per 7mm Express Rem ALSO 7mm Rem Express - I've seen PIX of barrels with BOTH designations. I liked the nomenclature of either.

For the vast majority of hunters, the 7mm-08 will do all you need done. It has the same appeal in a SA, as the 270 win does in a LA. Very effective, but lower recoil than the parent cartridge. The 7-08 is going to be lighter, more efficient, have less muzzle blast and lower recoil than it LA rivals. In some (longer range, heavier bullet) applications, it is not going to be as effective as a 270/280. But with today's bullets it's a very practical cartridge.

Didn't realize there were so many marketing geniuses around here. Very impressive.

Or maybe everybody just read the same repeat article?

Don't quote me on this but if memory serves, the 270/280 that I reloaded for needed 5 or so grains more powder to get maybe 100 more fps than the 7mm08 with comparable bullet weights. That translates into more muzzle blast and recoil for a very small advantage that makes no difference in the real world. That's my opinion and I'm stickin' to it!

Remington did have some success in re-introducing the 280 Rem after the 7mmExpress VS the .280 barrel stampings on the 700BDL model. For the first year following the 700 Mountain Rifle introduction in I988 the .280 Rem chambering outsold the .270 and 30-96. Remington introduced a 3,000 FPS 140 gr grain bullet factory load at higher pressure which helped.

At least it did among rifle loonies who imagine vast differences in performance from very similar cartridges.
But the 7mm Express name also caused some less-than-loony riflemen to use the ammo in 7mm Remington Magnum rifles, the reason Remington dropped the idea and started calling it the .280 again. (I got this information directly from the guy who was Remington's writer contact for many years.)

Rifle/ammo manufacturers are always trying to come up with another round to jump-start sales among loonies. Sometimes it even works, at least for a few years when the novelty starts to fade out, or the loonies that really went for all have a rifle (or rifles) in the new cartridge. If the manufacturer is really lucky the new round really catches on, but more often the new round essentially disappears, or is occasionally revived in "special runs" from various rifle manufacturers, designed to sell a few more to rifle loonies.

The .280 did OK when it first appeared in the late 1950's, but almost dropped off the face of the earth after the 7mm Remington Magnum came out in 1962. Since then it's primary market has been entirely rifle loonies, who believe it's somehow cooler than the .270 Winchester, or actually kills "better" than the .270. It never really was embraced by mainstream hunters, like the .270 or, to a smaller extent, the 7mm-08--which is what it takes for a new cartridge to become a long-term success.

Maybe some folks around here have been reading guns for fifty years or longer and have read dozens of articles outlining marketing failures.

I prefer the 280 Remington. Just because. If the 7-08 is your huckleberry, that's just fine with me.

I've hunted, and killed big game with the '06', the .280, the 7X57, and the .308. Right now own a very nice custom 7-08, as well as customs in the '06', the .280 and two .308's.
Why isn't the .280 is more popular than the 7-08 ? Probably marketing, ballistics of factory ammo, and hype. BTW, I suspect the .280 is more popular now than it was when first introduced. It's AI version is probably as popular an "improved" version than anything else out there.
Do they perform any better in the field ? Not that I've seen. I can tell you that quality factory ammo for the 7-08 is much easier to find. I find that recoil between factory ammo for both is pretty close, but so is performance. So, it's your call. E

In the 50s and 60s military 30-06 was all over the place. I remember picking up buckets of it left in desert draws and at public ranges. Hence the popularity of the 270 and 25-06. One pass through the sizing die and you had free brass. (yeah I know, the 270s came out a bit short, but I did it all the time and it hurt nothing)

My guess is that the 7-08 of today fills the same "slot" the 270 did in the 50s 60s and 70s. Ballistics are certainly close enough to not matter on game. Brass is free, or at least close to free. It's accurate and easy to load, very versatile and just covers a LOT of ground.
The 280 is a shell you have to buy at full price. Sure, it beats the 7-08 ballistilly, but not by enough to make ANY difference on ANY game you's shoot with either cartridge.

So my guess is that the 7-08 is beating the 280 in sales for the reason above, and also for the reason the 7-08 fits in actions of the standard 308 length (bolt, auto, pump, lever and single shots) as well as surplus KAR and GEW length Mausers, and also in "long actions' that can take the 30-06. The 280 fits only the 30-06 length actions.

So there are just more guns available in 7-08 then 280, and that factor also is going to cause sales to go up a LOT. Remember that a lot of 7-08 shooters are not shooting them in bolt actions.

Not a gun writer, and I don't "need" another rifle. However, if I were going to get another rifle, I would send one of the pre-64 M70's I have to Jarrett and have him build me one of his Beanfield rifles in .280 Ackley Improved.

here`s a funny story :my son when he was growing up got a 7mm-08 in a 700 Remington with a 24 inch barrel, this rifle shot lites out with my handloads. my father came over with his old 280 Remington 740 semi- automatic with Remington factory loads and brag how accurate it was and so much more powerful than my son`s kid rifle the 7mm-08.
here you guys be the judge what happened: son`s 7mm-08 shot a 5/8 inch group with 5 shots at 2850 fps used 140 gr.partitions my handloads
father`s 280 shot a 4 inch 5 shot group at 2450 fps used like 150 gr.core lokt factory loads.

yes I know it wasn`t a fare comparison but it sure was funny that day. anyway my dad ordered a new 7mm-08 Remington bolt,told me because this way he the grandpa and the grandson could use the same ammo hunt`n deer . I never said a word about it, but it has always made me chuckle yet. both are good cartridges but the 7mm-08 does have less recoil too my dad the grandpa said too.

Because they have sold more 7mm 08’s

because the 7x64 brenneke was here before ....

Then throw in the ahead-of-it’s-time, 7 mm, short-action, 280-equivalent, the 284.

Timing and circumstances like most things in life.
100 answers may well all be correct or, correct enough to rationalize the reason(s).

The .280 was issued in non preferable rifle choices and under-loaded from its potential because of those rifle choices. You have to give the customer something that can be deciphered as a benefit and Remington failed to do that.

The 6.5 Creed by comparison, demonstrates that although the ballistics would never turn the head of a hand-loader, but the accuracy and lack of recoil would and because although it offers nothing in velocity over what it existing, the aforementioned is the bait. Age hopefully brings wisdom and wisdom begins, albeit very slowly at times, the recognition of "enough".

John

You sure got that right, Ahead of its time !!

I always liked the idea & looks of the 284. I FINALLY got one, a 98 custom THROUGH a Friend - Grasshopper, here. After solving a scope mount issue - holes drilled OFF center - I hunted mine this past season. Killed 2 bucks & 1 doe. It worked like a Champ > AKA 270 W. I'm running H 139 BTSP over Surplus 4831 @ 3000 fps. That's awful 270 ISH in a Mauser -std length- action 21" bll.
I'm very glad to have satisfied my curiosity and desire, HOWEVER I didn't accomplish anything over the 270 or 280 w/handloads.

I'd like to recognize Edm here too. He sold a batch of 284 W brass to me when I couldn't find any, anywhere at the time. THANKS

It also accomplished 1 other thing for me. I have NEVER known ONE hunter who had or used the 284 W -- or 6.5 Swede for that matter. I like the idea of having a couple of rifles/cartridges that Nobody - I know - has.

It is a shame that Winchester Hamstrung the 284 in the 100 and ?maybe> 88. NO it's not a true short action but MY GOODNESS how much diff can 1/2" make. I've had 243s and 6mm Rem in Rem 700 S A and Ruger UL 308 W; and the S A didn't impress me ENUFF to forsake the L A.

I'd rather have 1/2" longer action FOR the extra magazine length. That's handy and beneficial.


Each to Their Own

Jerry

When I first got into guns and hunting over 20 years ago, I didn't know anything about cartridges so I sat down with a Speer manual and read about each cartridge. I also looked at the cartridge diagrams to see what each cartridge looked like. Some I'd never even heard of obviously. In the end after a week of reading and looking I decided on.....................................................................................................the .280 Remington.

My local gun shop had never even heard of it and he'd been in business for a couple of decades. That's how popular it was in Australia. Fortunately the Remington importers did indeed have a couple in stock and I ordered a Mountain Rifle and they sent a BDL instead. I was so keen I took the BDL and still have it. It now wears an HS Precision stock and a 3.5-10x40 Leupold in the gun metal grey finish and it is my relegated wet weather rifle. I'm shooting 140gn Accubonds in it and that has proven to be a great all round bullet for my local game. It is the only rifle I have that I load a non ADI powder. I settled on Reloder 19 though it is getting hard to find.

That's what you should'a done.

Excellent choice!

As regards the .280/7mm Express problem, I have a cigar box with ruptured 7mm Express cases that were fired in Browning BAR 7mm Magnum rifles. I removed these cases during the time I worked in the Browning Gunsmithing Shop. As far a damage usually the receiver was bulged, the magazine blown open and the forearm splintered, in most instances the rifles were repairable.

Well...similar to Elvis above....... I didn't know what a 280 R was. really. That was 1975 or 76. I only started deer hunting in '72

I WILL NOT tell you what rifle/cart I started with -- I'll never have another one.

Jerry

This from P 2
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gunswizard Online Content

The 7mm08 works in a short action and the .280 not. Perhaps the biggest blunder Remington made with the .280 was renaming it the 7mm Express, this caused lots of wrecked 7mm Magnums from firing the 7mm Express. Remington realized this folly for what it was and pretty quickly changed the name back to .280.





Thanks gunsw. Like I said earlier I'd heard 'rumors' but haven't seen facts.

For myself - I'd prefer to have one of the 7mm Express Rem than a 280, because of the oddity and rareness.


Thanks Again

Jerry

J


Never fear. The LGS I frequent infrequently had a salesman, “gun guy,” tell me the 300 WSM was unpopular and not a good seller.
Au contraire thinks I. ....Oh, forget it.

Don't you know those Gun Store Goobers are the most learned?

I always liked the 7-08 but never owned one. Years ago when my brother wanted a new rifle I tried to talk him into one but he opted for the 308 instead. I've mostly used a 270 years ago, but when the local shop had a 280 in a M700 Mountain DM on clearance...I couldn't pass it up.

I wonder if Remington offered the 700ADL synthetic in 280 REM if it would be a good seller?

I doubt it.

They do make it the 700 Mountain stainless with B&C stock.

Savage just released 4 new models in 280AI, and Hornady released 280AI brass.

I think that is the future of the 280. As the parent of the 280AI.

Good move.

I have always liked the 280.I have probably owned about 12 of them including a couple 280AI.They were all very accurate.The best of them was a Dakota 76 that I foolishly sold here.I have only owned two 7MM 08s.One sucked and the one I have now is stupid accurate.The difference between a long action and a short action is all in the shooters mind .4 ounces doesn't mean much.That said the 7MM 08 will probably do anything the 280 can do.So it is a choice of what ever trips your trigger.Huntz

Just to pull an answer outta my azz - I'd say because the 270 Win was already entrenched and popular and the 7-08 fit in a SA and benefited from the popularity of the 7x57 and 7RM.

7mm it seems is about the only metric that really caught on in those days, here in the US. When the 280 came out and was the 7Express, it was handicapped and dwarfed by the 7RM.



I like it fine though. Case capacity is just about right, in my opinion, for about anything that needs doing with a 7mm rifle.

Never thought much about the .280 myself until I ran across a Sako AV in great condition for a surprisingly reasonable price at a gunshow. Now, with 140g NAB's at just under 3100 fps it gets hunted fairly often. I intend to work up a load with the 120g NBT's this spring. I also have a 7mm08 in a Sako M591 that is stupid accurate with 120g NBT's can't remember the velocity on those. I think the 7mm08 is more popular because a good many people like it for a youth and ladies gun. It lends itself well to the compact rifles without much loss in performance.

My perspective is from outside the USA, so a little different than most here. I've never owned a 280, but never wanted to either. I have owned three 7x64 rifles. Still have two. The .280 and 7x64 are almost identical in case shape and capacity. In my opinion the .280 has never had a legitimate reason for existence. The 7x64 predates it by a few decades, was always loaded to full pressure, and has lived up to its potential all around the world, everywhere but the USA. The 7x64 is older, more worldly, and better established. The .280 could die and nobody but a few USA rifle loonies would miss it.
The 7mm-08 is very efficient, low recoil, low muzzle blast, and very accurate. It fits a short action rifle perfectly. It handles the 140 grain bullets so well that there is little need for heavier. It kills deer sized game very well. My sons each have one.

I've been watching all this from the sidelines. I don't own either. I've shot both. My angle on this is that I've had to answer a lot of questions from uninformed deer hunters as best I could. Overall, I agree with the premise that 280 Rem is relatively unknown compared to 7mm-08. Those that know it, seem to hold 7mm-08 in high regard. Those that actually own 280 Rem think it's terrific. A lot of whitetail deer hunters aspire to owning a 7mm-08. Far fewer want a 280 Rem.

The big draw for 7mm-08 was the perception of a flatter trajectory over the 308 WIN with far less recoil. This is an opinion held mostly by folks who don't reload. As to the 280 Rem, the biggest perceived detraction seemed to be that it did not compare well to the 7mm Rem Mag.

In comparison with the 270 WIN, there seemed to be a perception that it was more old-school. For some, that was a big draw. Others felt newer was better, and to that end 7mm-08 seemed to be the preferred choice.

Lesser perceptions I encountered:

1) 7mm-08 is a good a good Yute and Wimmz' cartridge, but 243 WIN is better.
2) 280 REM is too close to 30-06 to make it worth the change
3) Short action cartridges are better than long action (without really knowing why)

I'm not saying any of this is necessarily real. I'm just reporting what I read.

Personally, as an informed whitetail hunter in his 60th year, I see more reason to consider a 7mm-08 than a 280 Rem down the road simply over the issue of recoil. I'm heavily vested in 30-somethings. However, I expect that sometime in the next 20 years or so I'll want less recoil than my 30-06's afford. I'm already dabbling with 25-06.

Here in the Trans-Bluegrass, I used to see a preponderance of 30-06's and 30-30 WIN. The latter being the choice of the older generation. As they've retired, the newer generation prefers 30-somethings with 270 WIN being the choice for women. I occassionally hear of 243 WIN. I see few hunters picking anything in 7mm. Those that do, go afield with 7mm Rem Mag.

I'm of the opinion the 7mm-08 is the best general purpose cartridge for the average American ever conceived. With bullets of similar SD/BC to the 308 Win, it kicks less (lighter bullets) while doing the same duty( ie, the 7mm 140 gr is quite similar to the .308 165 gr). The 7-08 is also not hobbled with the 308's ridiculously long throat. And, if you need more than a 7-08 for average US hunting, you need to learn how to shoot, pick a better bullet, or need something with a lot more power than a 280.

Guys that wanted a 280, 7mm Express, 7mm-06, already had the 270 available, established firmly since the 1920's. Most went with the 270 or skipped on by Remington's confusing 7mm-06-mess right to the 7mm RM.

I've had both, killed with both. I'll take the 7-08.

"Trans-Bluegrass"

Is that another new gender?

Should I ever feel the need to have another short 7mm, I will go back to the .284 Win. which is what I started with in 1967. Until then, I have my 7x57 and 7x64 to do what needs to be done in the hunting field.

With modern powders and bullets, the 7mm-08 IS a 280 from 1999. My brother and father owned several 280's. My brother still has a couple. They have 21" bbls, and have never gotten better velocities than 7-08 data in 24" bbls. He was surprised when he got a chronograph, and very disappointed. Never mind that he could shoot 2" 5-shot groups at 300 with one, and 1" and small change 5-shot groups with the other. Groups, plural. And never mind that he killed his biggest elk with one of those rifles, with one shot at 650 yds to anchor him, then a finisher up close.

He has gotten around to hunting one again, after putting them away for several years, and killed an antelope drama-free last season with a well-placed shot around 250 yds. And he is planning to buy his 11yo son a 7-08 this year for his primary hunting rifle for MT elk, deer, etc. In the past, he had gotten his boys a 300 SAUM (his oldest), a 30-06 (his next-oldest), and a 308 (next to last). I'm sure its no accident that he has aged about 15 years over the span of these purchases, and is in his 50's.

The .280 is very legitimate and a better choice in a sporting rifle. There just are so many .284 chamberings out there. I just think the the 7/08 gets good press- that is it

I've owned four 280s and three 7mm08s. The first two were Rugers with 22 inch barrel. They shot less than 2900 fps with 140 grain bullets. The second 280 I owned was an Encore with a 26 inch barrel. It shot close to 3100 with 140 grain bullets and I kept it several years. Sometimes single shots can be aggravating for keeping up with extra ammo. The last 280 I owned was a TC Venture with a 24 inch barrel. It shot great right around 3000 fps. After sending it back to the factory for inconsistent misfires three times to get the bolt replaced I got rid of it. Now the 24 inch barreled 7mm08s I shoot does the same speed as a 22 inch 280 I am pleased with it.

Over the years of shooting the 280, I shot one box of factory ammo in it. Now there are several kinds of 7mm08 factory ammo if I need them that are available vs the 280.

Same reason as there are more democrats than republicans

We're kind of the low-rent district. If you look on the map, Cynthiana is about the dividing line for the Bluegrass part of the state. I can see Cynthiana's lights on the horizon. I'm about 10 miles south of the Ohio River. I've seen us called the "Outer Bluegrass" as well. We have horse farms, but they're not nearly as ostentatious as what you see around Lexington. Mostly, the Trans-Bluegrass farms beef cattle, goats and sheep.

Remington's hit and miss on marketing rounds is legendary.

IIRC, the .280 was rolled out at lower pressure compared to the .270, to accommodate their 742 semi auto rifle.

The 280 wasn't promoted at full power, at full potential while the .270 was rocking along at 60K psi.

Then it was repackaged as the 7mm Express, which as posted already, didn't work out very well. Not too unlike like the .244/6mm deal, just less successful. The 6mm package worked, is a good round. Rem just had to get the twist right.

Now, we have the .280AI, which seems to be on the right track regarding promo, loads, good brass, performance, etc.. It's just not Remington, doesn't come in a green box...

DF

The issue was the management at Remington, at least early on.
They had a better cartridge in the 280 than did Winchester with the 270.
They also had a better cartridge with the 6 mm Rem, than Winchester did with the 243.
But they didn't know how to make them win, and its not easy playing catch up.
Today, with the information available for anybody with enough ambition to get it, its a little different story.
There is no real excuse for thinking that a 7/08 or a 270 is comparable to a 280.

That's funny right there.


Jerry

my first centerfire was a Marlin 336 30-30. My first bolt action was a 7x57 Ruger Mk II (since given to my son as it is his lucky deer rifle). My third centerfire is an M700 in 280 Remington. It has kept me from buying a lot of other rifles. I still have my Speer reloading manual #13, where the article on the 280 states "if you own a good 280, there's little reason to trade it in for any of the 7mm Magnums"...

I have passed on countless 270s, 30-06s, 7mm08s, 260s, 6.5x55s, and even the 6.5 Creed because the cartridges won't hunt anything i can't hunt with the 280.

But i continue to be amazed at the number of gun shops i enter and when i ask about the 280 i get met with a blank stare - they don't know what it is.

the one thing that might get me off the 280 is a different platform than the M700... i am hankering to try a different platform... i have a bizarre hankering for an X-Bolt in 300 H&H... topped with a Bushnell LRHS...

which is crazy because as i get older i don't need to be moving up in bullet diameter and recoil...

I would agree, except that is the way it is. New is better. Short-action is better than long-action, etc. For a long while it was how many 'S's and 'M's you had in your chambering's name. It's more about perceptions. I used to get questions like "what is flat out to 600 yards?", and my oft-quoted favorite, "Which is more, a 742 or a 30-06?" BTW: you did catch that men prefer buying odd numbers over even, right? From that standpoint alone, 280 REM was doomed from its inception. Remington might have done better if they'd called it the "279.99"

For over a decade, I used 300 Savage as the ideal whitetail deer chambering just as a place for starting the discussion. Someone would staunchly defend the 7mm-08 for a variety of reasons, even though they didn't own one. I have to admit, I don't own a 300 Savage, but I download a 308 Win to match it.

...not to change the direction in this thread...but which gun mfg'er markets a new 7x64 in the US at Rem'Chester'Rger prices?? The 7x64 could satisfy a growing itch for something in another 7mm diameter to pair with my M70 XTR 7x57, that is not a magnum casehead, besides the 7-08 or 280Rem. I wish a 280AI rifle at under $1k was an off the rack possibility now that factory brass is becoming more accessible without having to fireform it.

OTOH in a quick 30 minute looksee survey just now of the reloading online pages I only find one euro mfg'er offering data, Vitavouri (sp?) , that even lists the 7x64 and it's data looks suspiciously like what the US marketer's/mfg'ers offer in a 280 Remington. What am I missing here?
Ron

Vho

IMO you ain’t missin nuttin. The 280 & 7x64 are same, same except nomenclature.

Now the 7x64 R has a RIM case head and. ? I’m not sure ? but the case might be slightly larger.

Jerry

Very much the same except the 7x64 was killing game 40 years before the .280 and it was always loaded to top pressure like the .270 without being hobbled with less pressure to work in an autoloader.

Mauser M12 in 7x64, Sauer 101 Classic, Saki 85

pricey, about $1500 or so

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/742387536

.Thanks all for the insight, and why at plus a $K+ to start this po boy will most likely not ever own a 7x64.
I can appreciate the higher pressure limits of the 270 lives at, been shooting one of some sort most of my adult life since 1969, and never felt under gunned on Texas critters. Just wish the bullet style selection in .277 would emulate the 7mm's in 160's at least. Working thru the 7x57's acquisition and ALL the available toys to play with has been very educational. Hence the interest in something a little faster in 7mm, without going into a belted Magnums of bigger, 280AI may by my answer though.

I did go thru a phase of testing the limits of a SAKO AV 270 to the point that I could only get 3 loadings in new WW brass before the casehead print began disappear....the faster I ran it the tighter the SAKO's groups got, and never had an extraction issue or any other telltale signal of immediate danger. Sanity finally raised it's head and those attempts faded away since a dead critter is still dead critter even at a little slower MV and dead enough with just max book loads. The 270 does seem to be at the back of the line in getting the better bullets & with the new powders has generated renewed interest in JOC's fair haired child.
Ron
.

Verhoo -

FIRST - I agree with the 280 AI answering your quest.

Second, I would not do that for 2 reasons (not your reasons). A. I'm totally fine with the 270 W, eg - 130 @ 3100 fps + / 150 approaching 3000 fps. B. I've been using 'belted mags' since 1978 @. The 7 RM is one of my favs AND my latest purchase.

THIRD - I highlighted your word LITTLE faster. My ? is -- Is the expense & addition of the 280 AI worth the 'little' you get ?

I'm NOT trying to change your mind, just asking a thot provoking ?

Whatever you decide -- Good Luck

Jerry

I'll answer your question:

there are more rifles in 7mm-08. Remington never made that many in 280, but they made a bunch in 7mm08, including the model 7.

all kinds of companies chamber for 7mm08, including lots of entry level rifles.

Dads that bought their kids rifles were more likely to start them with a 7mm08.

around here, 7mm08 ammo is easier/cheaper to find than 280 always has been

There is no end to analysis....marketing will see to that.

Not a recommendation for anyone else but for my limited purposes, and in considerment of today' s bullets (which did change things for me), the 280 make a good heavy and it goes elk hunting. If I go again, I'd take it to Alaska or Africa without qualm. An low profile elevation dial saves me from carrying and shooting a magnum, addressing that past trajectory argument that went on between the ears and the quality of today's bullets addresses its ability to kill well. The 160g bullet class is fine, though I've shot a lot of 175g thru 280's of both ilk. Now another bonus, the heavier stuff in newer bullets take less throating than they used to.

Though you wouldn't know it reading current internet gack, seating the bullet to the lands was well known to the men of old and it has been an effort for a while...

The AI speeds things up a bit and the reloading info today is specifically for it--accurate and relevant to the full potential of the cartridge. Thanks to Nosler, for that. The factory ammo I chronographed was impressive...not so with the 280. As said above, a handloader's cartridge.

I like the 7-08 with 120-140s, for deers anywhere.

I’ve owned 2 280’s - one was a M700 Mtn Rifle, something was goofy with it, you couldn’t get 7mm-08 velocities out of it without getting pressure signs, second was a M70 winlite that I foolishly sold on here. It really had nothing on a 270 in my mind, except more expensive and harder to find factory ammo, though I seldom buy it...but as any traveling hunter knows, when you need it, you really need it.

I’ve been looking at the 7mm-08 as of lately, decided to see what the local Wally World carried for ammo...none, as in zilch. They had 3-4 flavors of 6.5 CM though.

For those that handload and opt for the 7mm-08 for its mild recoil, does it really have anything over a 270 with a 130 gr bullet at 2800?

As with most things, there is usually a good reason for “good press”!

I think those two reasons nailed it.

I think people also prefer a handier rifle for hunting. I have a 25-06 that is my favorite rifle but if there was a mass produced 257 caliber based on the .308 case, I would buy one.

for what i do, i could settle on an M700 in 25-06 and another in 280 and be almost happy as a clam

Theeck

I have wondered IF the 280 R was conceived during a 'Solar Eclipse' ?

Hindu's say Be careful not to conceive children during an Eclipse !


Jerry

Me too, by far.

In my part of Texas, ( I moved in 1987) I only saw "one" .270 and "one" .243. There were tons of 30-30/30-06/6.5 Eyetalians/and 6mm Remington a handful of 8x57s. I knew "one" guy who used the Mod 740/280. Due to Jim Carmichaels influence via articles I and I wanted to begin handloading and wanted a get a bolt actioned 280 (to handload at 270 pressures or so). I did so in '77, ( Lee Loader/RCBS scales/ Lee hand priming tool, 3 Manuals read first! ha) I bought a Mod 77 in .280 at a Clearance sale at the old Texas Gunman in Beaumont, Tx....I had watched it sit in the sale rack for over a year! Everyone wanted the 7mm Mag ( folks began using them on finally deer then) if they wanted a 7mm ( there were only a couple 7x57 Mod 95 Mausers around). I used that 280 with 55gr IMR4350/Hornady 139sp, never clocked it, for years. It was a real killer from 15yds to 276 long steps ( I'm proud of that shot!) Yes, it got traded for a new Colt Python...the "loudest" .357 I have ever shot! Fast forward ( too many rifles/trades/experimenting to mention)

in 2000 or so I bought a little Kimber 84M in 7mm/08. It was a neat little rifle, shot the then avaialable Light Magnum 139SST at 3100fps into one ragged hole! Sticky bolt lifts too. I tried a few handloads later but never beat that one, so that's what I used. I felt it was just like a 280 in the field! It was the only 7mm08 I ever had ( yes, its gone :)) have owned just several and many .280s/280AI/7mm Express and 7mm Mags (7RM/7RUM/7STW), but now only have the 7x57. ( I never killed game past 375yds, averaged 150yds, maybe, so saw no need in the LR rigs anymore.) ( 7x57 in handloads of course! To me the 7mm/08(7x57) and the 280 are in the same boat (comparison debate) as the 308/30-06. Fist fights are common...but I'm happy. I really only have Two Rules for people when I'm in the woods..(1) Do NOT shoot me! and (2) leave me alone. I'll use what I want to use! ha

Since the biggest things I hunt are whitetailed deer, I bought a .270 waybackwhen. The 7mm/08 wasn't even available. The .270 was available, so was the .280, in the same rifles, but you couldn't find .280 ammo in every little gunshop, and .270 was everywhere.

Since that time in the waybacks, I've stuck with the .270s. They work for me. I handload for everything, but I never saw that the 7mm bullets were all that much better on deer (I dinked around with a 7x57 for awhile), and the .30/06s I had were great, but not any "better" than my .270, at least on deer.

I've never gotten around to messing with a 7mm/08 or .280, and the couple of 7mm Rem. Mags. didn't kill deer any "deader", so my .270s have served me well. I might be missing out on something, but I doubt it.

The 280 didn't catch on quick. Five years later the 7mm Mag came on like a rocket ship.
If someone wants a long action 7mm that has high velocity, why choose the cartridge that "almost" equals a 7 mag, and only handloaded. They go 7 mag.



The 7-08 effectively does the same thingas a 280, has a reputation for light recoil, and frequently comes in lighter more compact rifles.


Seriously consider this.

If the 30-06 would have been five years old when the 300 Win was introduced, and
15 years later the 308 would have come along............

Would the old grandad 30 have the popularity it now has.

Yup, Short Bolt Throw, Lighter Recoil & Handier Rifles !

When I went on my quest for the perfect .280, with an eye to converting it to a.280 Improved; the 7mm-08 was barely made legit by Big Green.

Who Knew ! I'd like to give my son a 7mm-08 M70 Fwt , so that I can inherit it when he develops MagnumItis. I'll give him a fair trade ...


Here's an interesting quote from MD's recent article on the 1955 vintage .358 Winchester :

" Fellow gun writer Richard Mann used a New Ultra Light Arms Model
20 and a 225-grain Nosler Partition to take this nice Montana black
bear on a hunt with John more than a dozen years ago. "

Gettin it done! I wonder how much of a twitch RM got from the bite from that NULA Model 20 ...

DF - have to hack & quote to get this story out of the Fake News category
- No slight intended, apologize in advance for introducing any new errors



7mm Express was supposed to be a Heavier Rifle Only Load 65K psi ?



As an aside the 244/6mm was loaded in the 740 at the higher operating pressure .




And that is Ok, that Remington is not promoting, or Marketing the 280 AI.

It was their Custom shop that introduce all the confusion about the headspace dimension for the SAAMI .280 Ackley Improved .

I'm still confused over the .014" discrepancy .

Anyone care to elaborate ?

338Rules

^^ THIS ^^

With the .25 and .27 calibers mired in 10" twist BCs ,

These caliber bullets aren't going to get popular in much longer & higher BC configurations anytime soon.

It just seems natural to chamber them both in the .308 case, and 2.8" magazine
Neck angles could be adjusted to 30 degree "improved"

.25-08 and .27-08 are naturals for hunting ranges, where the .260 is doomed, by the length & market strength of the 6.5 LR Bullets; and the short action 2.8" magazine.

Seems the 6.5 CM sorta fixed that problem.

I think the 6 CM with its long, high ogive bullets out of a fast twist barrel will make it hard for a .25-08/.25 CM or a .270-08/270 CM to exist, must less flourish, IMO.

DF

Can't imagine why anyone would need a .25 CM, but I know the wildcat exists, from the recent article in Wolfe.
Wasn't the SA .25x284 popular a while back ? Before the short fats took over catting

I think so, in some circles. There will always be wildcats as long as there are Loonies...

With advancements in powder and bullet technology, especially 6mm and 6.5mm, those two may be at the head of their class.

DF

Tough not to look long at one of the 8" twist 6 or 6.5 s before the 7mm-08

More than the 7-08 vs 280 question, i have yet to comprehend shooter’s preference for the slower 7x57. I would never give it a single consideration, yet others think there is nothing better.

Always gonna be the 280 & 7 Wby for me.

PART of this is:

Some of us just have a 'thing' for a certain cartridge. Maybe nostalgia, maybe simply the LOOKS of the cartridge << I like the 6mm Rem LOOK much better than the 243 >>> I have always LIKED the 284 W but in a L A. >>

Some think the 7 Mauser can be handloaded to = the 7-08. Seems likely, tho I haven't tried it.

For myself ---
there are cartridges that some are in love with......I have no use for and I seldom express my opinion....because I like/love some cartridges others despise.

Also there are a few STOCKS that some are obsessed with and I don't see any need for the design --- Again I just pass on commenting.

Some almost hate Synthetic --aka plastic-- stocks, and I feel they are very practical and have several.


IMO it's simply a personal preference. WE ALL have them.


Jerry

IMO, the choice between 7x57 vs. 7-08 would be the specific rifle, classic vs. modern, etc.

The rounds are so similar, otherwise.

DF

Reloder 28,

If more muzzle velocity was the only criteria for choosing a big game cartridge, then the .280 would be considered mediocre among 7mm rounds.

Remington sure seems to field more losers than they win...

winners 223, 7RM, 7-08, 300 Ultra

prom dates left at the curb: 244/6mm, 260, 6.5 RM, 350 RM, 7 Ultra, 8 RM, the SAUMS, the great 280...

to me the 280 is THE PERFECT do everything compromise... a 140 NP to 3000 or a 150 NP to 2900, pray tell what can't be cleanly handled by that in the USA, while not beating the snot out of you?

Maybe the 280 got lost in the crowd as a 'tweener...

Middle child syndrome...?

Getting no respect. Not the alpha dog, not the baby...

Plus Remington's flawed roll out and subsequent confusion, 7 mm Express, etc.

A perfect storm... ?

DF

I think the SA appeal of the 7mm-08 is the reason. My wife also hunts with and adores it. It fills a niche that the 280 doesn’t. After all, we already had the 270.

Other than shorter bolt throw, a LA can be made into a very light rifle.

I guess it's just the idea of a SA.

I wish there were more 3" actions, which would be good for rounds like .257R, 7x57, 6 mm Rem, etc., give more bullet room for .243, .260, etc.

DF

Dirtfarmer,

I posted way back in this thread about how the .280 sold all right the first few years, when Remington promoted it pretty well. In the beginning it was never intended to compete with bolt-action .270's. Instead it was meant as a ".270 equivalent" cartridge for the Remington semiauto, because the .270 operated at too-high pressures.

It didn't "fail" as a bolt-action round because of Remington's poor promotion. It failed because it wasn't intended to primarily be a bolt-action round. If Remington had intended the .280 for bolt-actions, they would have been even dumber than many Campfire members believe, because it was so similar to the .270, which was already well-established--and there wasn't any noticeable difference in the field.

.280 nuts like to argue that their cartridge is vastly superior, but I've hunted a LOT with both the .270 and .280, and for the sub-500 yard big game hunting most people actually do, there isn't any difference--except you can buy .270 ammo and brass easily, almost anywhere. Except for shooting beyond 500 yards, where the wider availbility of high-BC 7mm bullets makes some difference, the claimed "superiority is based on tiny differences in bullet weight, velocity, etc. If loonies couldn't weigh bullets or lacked chronographs, the differences would never be noticeable, whether in the field or by simply looking at one of the rounds.

Remington knew the 7mm Remington Magnum would just about kill off the .280, but they gambled that the 7mm would be a hit. It was, far more than any other post-WWII non-varmint cartridge until the 6.5 Creedmoor came along in 2007. Due to the enormous success of the 7mm RM, I sincerely doubt Remington regretted the semi-demise of the .280.

This thread is yet another example of how the longest Campfire rifle-cartridge threads are almost always about stuff that doesn't make any difference, except in the minds of loonies.

"Some think the 7 Mauser can be handloaded to = the 7-08. Seems likely, tho I haven't tried it."

I have to some degree. Been playing with 150 gr. grain bullets and Re17. I get 2700 FPS with the 150 gr. Nosler Partition with good accuracy I have reached 2880 FPS with that powder and bullet but accuracy was a bit erratic. I also tried Re17 with the 150 gr. Nosler ABLR andRe17 for a top end of 2920 FPS. Accuracy was lousy. To be perfectly honest, that bullet hasn't shot worth spit in three 7x57 rifle and a .280 Remington. The 7x57s are a Ruger #1A, Winchester M70 FWT and a custom based on an FN Mauser.
The Mauser is a bit problematic regarding pressure though and shows high pressure signs way sooner that the other two rifles. I did a test run with the three rifles and the 175 gr. Hornady round nose. I loaded to duplicate the original 1893 load that the cartridge based it's reputation on. The M70 and #1 were spot one and accurate at 2320 and 2330 FPS respectively. The Mauser ran almost 100 FPS faster with the same load. The chamber is very tight as the pressure/expansion ridge is almost non-existent. The throat is the standard for the 175 gr. bullet at my request when I had the rifle built. Accuracy is very good with factory and the few handloads that were not giving problems with pressure signs. Guess I'll still have to figure that one out.
PaulB.

And yet we find out that the winner of the sales contest has too short a neck, combined with too shallow a shoulder angle !
Leading to inconsistent pressure perturbations, Gasp !

I'll keep my .280's thanks, and fondly remember my first 7x57 ( a well hunted BRNO ) that broke me in gently, and fed so, so slickly.

^ This ^

Not too Long, Not Too Short, But Just Right.

I dream of a NULA 20 in 6mmAI , or .260 ; and of course the Mauser actions were designed around the x57 case dimensions & taper.

I think there's a pill for that!

would the old grandad 30 have the popularity it now has.
[/quote]

Why of course! its an '06, which I bet almost everybody that hunts has used or seen used or seen the ammo in Podunk Texas! ha

Why of course! its an '06, which I bet almost everybody that hunts has used or seen used or seen the ammo in Podunk Texas! ha
[/quote]


Just way too boring for Loonies...

Just kills stuff, generation after generation, keeps on keeping on.

DF

Does sound like a diagnosis...

Should that be considered a flaw in the case design? Rough throats in test barrels, SAAMI pressure ceiling compared to the 7mm Wby...

And the .243, similar situation compared to the 6 mm Rem., which SAAMI allows to run at full throttle, 65K psi.

DF

Wow. So what exactly is wrong with the 280 again?

.270 based performance perception.

Think of the .280 as a longer 7x57 with a bit less taper, and it all clears up

"This thread is yet another example of how the longest Campfire rifle-cartridge threads are almost always about stuff that doesn't make any difference, except in the minds of loonies. "

LOL, we represent that remark.

well played.

The .280 AI has a following, near 7RM performance on a non mag, case. Brass is available, don't have to fire form.

If I didn't have a 7RM, I'd be looking at building one.

DF

Horrors... ... hunting with... ... a 270... ... is so.... ... so wrong! for a 280 Looney

I do not disagree at all. It’s just that it would be my lowest choice from the top of the chain of 7’s.

I was able to steal a 280 AI from Kenai King a few years ago. It is a dream of a shooting iron.

I think that is where the popularity of the 7-08 comes to bear.

Being a 280 fan, I tip my hat to Remington for birthing this stepchild.

as a gun dealer I always tell parents either buy your son-daughter either a 243 win. or a 7mm-08 rem. reason as has been posted before these two cartridge kick less,ammo is easy and generally cheaper to buy .if they ask me which one I like best to hunt deer with I lean towards a 7mm-08 always, its a cartridge that has very good accuracy easiest and yes again less recoil,many times I help sight the gun in too.in the world of just a regular deer hunting family that does not reload they want easy and yes cheaper too,gun manufactures have gotten down to just a few calibers they chamber barrels for now days and let`s be honest the 280 Remington is not one of them,but I personally do like the 280 Rem., but in the past in my area we you used to have money shoots out to 500 yards and my 7mm-08 with handloads made me a lot of money in those days. I wish gun manufactures would bring back more caliber-cartridge choices again and easier too.

I'm a big fan of the .280AI and the 7mm-08.

Handloading is a must to get the most performance out of each caliber, but you can actually find 7mm-08 on the shelf.

I once thought that and have engaged in several such arguments only to realize my ignorance. While I assent 100%, I still would never hunt with a 270 voluntarily.

I am going to give you credit... for being humorous.

IF you are NOT..... Do you know how ASININE that is ??

Mule Deer posted on P 10......

[/b]"280 nuts like to argue that their cartridge is vastly superior, but I've hunted a LOT with both the .270 and .280, and for the sub-500 yard big game hunting most people actually do, there isn't any difference--except you can buy .270 ammo and brass easily, almost anywhere.

......If loonies couldn't weigh bullets or lacked chronographs, the differences would never be noticeable, whether in the field or by simply looking at one of the rounds. [b]

I admit I have some IRRational views about some things, but THAT is ridiculous IF you're serious.

I sincerely hope you're not.

Jerry

can't argue with that !

I guess I've missed something in 50 plus years of hunting.

I've NEVER tried or needed to put rifle ammo in an ashtray. Guess I don't need to.


Jerry

Not serious. Just poking fun.

Actually, one of my best hunting irons ever was my 270 Winchester 15” Encore barrel. I had it rechambered to 270 AI & it would push 130’s to 2950 fps. Took WT’s with it and shot it A LOT!

If I still had it I would be hunting with it.

I'm sure it's been said many times by the experts here that the overall popularity and greatness of the 270 Win had a great deal to do with the "failure" of the 280 Rem in becoming a top 5 cartridge. The 280 Rem has always been a spectacular performer, especially for the handloader.

The 7mm08 offered everything most shooters and hunters wanted in a mild-recoiling cartridge. Throw in the wide variety of actions it came in since its inception and it shouldn't be any wonder why the 7mm08 is a top seller.

For whatever it's worth, if I were somehow forced to use either one exclusively for the rest of my life I wouldn't exactly cry myself to sleep at night. They're both world class.

Well put. I remember when the 7-08 hit the market how I wondered why it was not as immediately popular as the 308. It languished for quite some time and, as a hand loader who was not then a 280 fan, I never understood why.

Because people can’t handle the bone crushing recoil of the 280, duh.

Or get a different truck with a bigger ashtray...

DF