I know there is not a C hairs worth of difference and it will come down to the cost of reamers and dies. But is there any reason to pick one over the other? There might be the outside chance that the Creed goes factory but not likely. The only thing I can think of is if and when I shot out the barrel a simple re-bore would get me a 6 or 6.5 Creedmore and if it is still the love child of gun cranks than re-sale potential would be better but that is not much of an argument since I rarely sell anything. The other old saw is if I forget my ammo which I have actually done then with the 22-250 I could shoot factory from wally world or the local PG&Y. But I rarely only have one rifle and when I did forget ammo there was enough rolling around my truck to finish the hunt. So how is that for a non dilemma?

I have a rifle getting converted to 22 Creedmoor right now.

Alpha Munitions is in the works of manufacturing head stamped 22 Creed brass as we speak. That to me justifies that choice over 22/250AI.

Alpha brass is top shelf. I've been testing their 6 Creedmoor brass for a couple months with great results.

I am all in on a custom 22 Creedmoor.

I have yet to settle on the components, but it’s going to happen soon.

I'm eyeballing Sierra's 90gr and 95gr SMK's. the 90 has a .563 G1, the 95, .600. Sierra's BC's are usually spot on. Should be able to get 3250+ fps with the 95....

Should be a pretty Skookum coyote rifle...

Might be a bit off topic but if a person shot out a 22x47 Lapua. Could you rechamber to 22 Creed and would it be like starting with a new barrel?

Friends, I seldom post any more on the 24HCF, mostly because of the hatred and anger that currently RULES here.

I must comment that Pat is a long-time friend and an exceedingly fine judge of all things currently gunny.

Given that, and Pat Sinclair's judgment, which I trust totally, I would favor the .22 Creedmoor over the .22-250 Ackley Improved.

Blessings,

Steve

probably not.....unless the barrel was a heavy barrel and can be shortened several inches at the breech end and still have room for new threads and chamber

I's shy away from anything AI....that sad, I'd prefer the 224 TTH over either of them.

Good to hear from you, DZ - I value your advice a LOT!

Care to expound?

Thanks brother!

Hope you and Karen are doing well. Give her my best wishes!

I miss those days of us crawling through the cactus, sneaking on those big antelope bucks!

Pat, what twist for the 22 Creedmoor?

I ordered a 1-7" Bartlein 5R. It might destroy lighter bullets, but I'm building this one for the long, heavy, higher BC bullets.

sounds perfect

Steve you are one of the "gooduns" and priceless in your advice and contributions.

That is golden. Like Moses receiving the stone tablets. I am swaying that direction. Could I fire a 22-250 in the Creed chamber without loosing life or limb? How about reforming Lapua or RWS brass to this configuration?

Yes this is tempting. Even though they make new barrels every day I am still Scotch Irish on a 600 round barrel burner. If I wanted more I would go for the 6.5x300 Weatherby and accept the limited barrel life. Like a full blown dragster that blows an engine on every run.

And just be be a d*ck I would probably go 22x6mm AI and loose maybe 400 rounds on the barrel life?

I really appreciate the input from the Congnasenti and it makes things easier to pick a chamber. Yes I do fill guilty of neglecting the worlds problems in leu of gun gack but in Clint Eastwards quote " A man has got to know his limitations".

The Psalmist said, "I do not concern myself with things that are too high for me."

So, based on that, anything above a 300 WSM is too high for me.

I'd take a gander at the 22x47 Lapua as well.....I like mine, 80 grain Bergers at 3370 in a 23" tube.

Pat, are there hardness issues with the hornady brass?

I'd fast twist a 22-250 and be done. But I'm pragmatic +P.




Travis

You must like trimming.



Brass. I meant brass.

8 twist as a factory spec is a big deal, IMO.

I have a custom 8 twist .22-250 with Shilen barrel.

But factory .22-250’s don’t come with fast twist, CM’s do.

DF

Can't remember the last time I trimmed any 22-250.




Travis

Yeah, it's got a 28-degree shoulder, almost the same as the Creedmoor's 30 degrees.

Which is probably the biggest advantage the .22 Creedmoor has over the .22-250 AI. The head tech at one of the major powder companies says the 30-degree shoulder angle so popular among "accuracy" cartridges is the real deal. He see's less pressure and velocity variation with shoulders around 30 degrees than shoulder angles much less or more, whether the 20-degree shoulders of .308-based rounds, or the 40-degree shoulders of Ackley Improveds.

The Luddite in me likes the 22/250 with a 1/8 twist, and as Deflave says I have not noticed excessive trimming issues.

We miss you Steve and hope for your return.

+1

DF

Steve, it's taken a lot of shiit talk, even some threats, but it's settled down it appears... stick around you seem like a good dude. Later

I am the 22-250 ai with a quick twist barrel camp.

If needed all i have to do is shoot the parent round and i am set for brass.

They do shoot accurately as well.

And i don't use loads that are the same as the parent,it was made to do better.

Now fire away.

The last time I trimmed my 22-250 brass was when I was shooting a Rem 788 in that chamber. After switching to Rem 700 actions, no trimming as I recall. I have both the 22-250 and the 22-250 AI in fast twist barrels.

https://store.alphamunitions.com/product/22mm-creedmoor/

22-creedmoor is tempting now with brass available.

22-250AI = Can borrow a reamer, cheap dies and brass, can fire factory loads, very slightly higher velocity.
22 Creedmore = Better design, good brass (not cheap), dies bushing or custom $$, Not sure about reamer availability.
22 x 47mm = Maybe the best case design, slightly better barrel life, better fit in a short action for 80 gr. bullets, expensive dies (Wilson, Whidden, or Reddington $$-$$$?) Would have to buy a reamer.

What else am I leaving out? Re-sale who cares?

If I was to be practical then I would just get an 8 twist standard 22-250 and go hunting.

The biggest disadvantage of any of the Creedmoor rounds is how few people can spell their name.

Cracking me up, John! Good one!

Glad to start your day with a laugh, Pat!

Thanks JB. No wonder dies are harder to find the Creedmore has the top secret 31.5 degree shoulder.

4D reamer rental has 22x47 Lapua reamers in stock.....reamer and go gauge for $39.00.

No crapmores though......

But I thought the only reason to "Ackley" anything was to negate trimming....

I think the Creademoh is the front runner. I have a nagging doubt that the 22 x 6x47mm Lapua may be more inherently accurate but with my shooting skills and not in a Heavy BR rifle I doubt I could tell the difference. Dies will not be too problematic as long as I can spell the name correctly. Thanks for the input especially from Steve Timms and Scenar shooter, I only wish I could do some of what you have done. I have hunted a lot but my experience pales by comparison. Thanks my Kampfar Bretheren.

Just waiting on my Alpha brass..................

[img]https://i.imgur.com/cwBOhOq.jpg?1[/img]

I can spell 220 Swift easier.

I'm building a 22-250AI, because it isn't a creedmoor.

Id bet a sugar cookie most rounds fired at said powder company is running more Remchester hulls in their database for the latter shoulder angles; 30 degree hulls usually correlate with primo brass. Flash hole precision and volumetric capacity not being a known quantity for the bulk manufacturers of brass.

Or maybe one should re-consider the 300 WSM/300HH comparisons?

Could be--but Palmisano and Pindell also settled on a 30-degree shoulder for the PPC rounds, for the same reason, and they used the same brass for all their experiments.

I recall Dan Pawlak did some work comparing the 222 Remington and, at that time, the 22 PPC. The DeLeval (sp?) nozzle and short powder column being credited with the more uniform ballistics for the benchrest powders used at the time.

I might have to see if I can find it.

I have been shooting the 22-250AI for decades, have my own reamer and fireforming barrel. chances of me trying the 22 Creedmoor are zero. I have built enough rifles on this platform to find what works and what does not. I wont ever build another with a slow twist (1-14") and wont build another with ultra fast twist (1-7"). the happy spot for me is 1-8" twist with 80gr bullets and Lapua brass and 5 or 6 groove barrel.

Does anyone here know if the .22 CM reamer would clean up a .22-250 Chamber ?

Thanks, I realize the twist is way too slow, but just thinking about the concept and possibilities ...

Edit to add :

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/22-250-remington/

https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/65-creedmoor/

Might be close, The 22-250 shoulder is .414" diameter at 1.515" ; while the CM is .462" diameter at 1.490"
.. going to have to do some trigonometry here

I jumped on a special (left hand) run of Tikka 22-250’s, 8-twist, T3X’s some time ago through Whittakers. In regard to the 22 Creedmoor, I learned from Pat that it’s reamer will clean up a 22-250 chamber with nothing else done, so of course, as a loony, I have thought of it but...the first load I tried with the 22-250, 8-twist, with Nos 69-gr Custom Comp bullets and R17 went into less than .5 MOA at 300 yards and clocked at just over 3300 fps.

I think age is finally modulating my inclination to remodel chambers and toward more esoteric cartridges...as good as they may be. That Creed looks very good though.

Quite the conundrum ! At .5 MOA in the original configuration, it's definitely a bird in the hand.

On the other hand though, It is definitely accurate enough to risk a re-chamber - hint

Inquiring minds need to know if that reduced taper and larger shoulder will get you down to .4 MOA

Cheers !

I'm going to say no based on the following image: (shoulder is further forward on the 22-250)

MM : I'm inclined to agree, ( see Edit my post, 2 up )

Vais brake?

kingston : You're fixated on that groove width. Pourquoi ?


Secret Code Perhaps ?


Tap Twice if you're OK - 3 times if you need Beer

Clearly not time to Circle the Wagons

Along that line of reasoning: the 300 Savage apparently had/has everything over the 308 Winchester.

Too bad that 32 years prior AND a 30 degree shoulder, the Savage (and the 30 TC) hold candles only in theory.

While everyone gets lathered up about the 22, 6 and 6.5 Creedmores and 30 degrees of precision, the original "Creedmore", the 30 TC, has been a VC hoor tested with a copper penny.

There's several reasons why, but the main reason is the 308 doesnt suck and the semantics havent taken over the range...

I've long wished someone would domesticate the .22-250AI, with a fast twist

So of course I wandered far off the beaten path, and bought a .220 Howell

Yes, GAP Extreme Hunter Platform

A 22 Creedmore is more likely to gain "domestication"....

Second hand from George Gardner of GAP (via Pat here as mentioned), a 22 Creed reamer is all that’s needed to update the 22-250.

Creedmoor is 0.028" shorter to the shoulder juncture. Does that matter? Almost like the Creedmoor was designed for the Ackley crush fit of 0.04" or there abouts. But it does enplane why it is perfectly fine to fire form 22-250 in a Creedmoor chamber. Also "splains" why all of them do well with the 1 in 8 twist and 75 to 80 grain bullets.

Should be the same on deer...

I am thinking the 90 and up are better in 6mm but I don't want to limit myself arbitrarily. Will a 7.7" twist handle these or should I go faster? I shoot mostly at lower elevations 500-2000 feet. My previous experience with SMKs in other calibers mostly 7mm was they are not a game bullet by my recktomning.

up

OK I will bite. Is the Creed good to go for 90's+ or is a larger case called for? The 75 grainer seems to me as an optimal match.

Larger case?

Guys shoot 90's in .223's for what that's worth.

Bringing an old thread back from the dead rather than starting a completely new one about the 22 Creedmoor. I'm curious if any of y'all that have built one for the fast twist heavies and how they've performed for you. I've got a Model 7 I'd like to run a switch barrel setup with and that Creedmoor is screaming my name for a sweet shooting predator/varmint rifle.
How do the 95gr Sierra MKs do on coyotes? Bobcats?
I'm also considering loading the 83gr Hammer Hunters (same length as MK) for chasing lions. This bullet requires a 7'' twist.
Seems like this would be a whole lot cheaper than shooting my magnums for fun and hopefully won't tear up the pelts too bad either.

A creedmoor reamer will clean up a x 47 chamber, but to clean up the throat it would prolly have to be set back.

I’ve not used the 95 in .224 but have used a fair few SMKs on foxes, goats and the odd pig. The light ones certainly work fine on foxes etc and the heavier ones (eg 107g in 6mm or the 155g in .308) work just fine on pigs as long as they aren’t being launched too fast.
I wouldn’t hesitate to try a 95g .224 SMK on a pig. It’s the best way to find out!

Why a 22 CM when one can have a 22-6MM Rem.AI with a 1/7 twist?

Barrel life is the main reason for me, not that good in the Creedmoor and pretty lousy in the 22x6mm from what I have heard but this is with the 75-85 grain bullets so don't know what the heavier bullets will do. The heavies might be even worse depending on how hard you pushed them. One of my gunsmiths has done several 22 TTHs and he has done a couple that are on their third barrel.

The biggest reason I'd choose CM over Rem AI is because of my limited mag length in the Model 7 action. It's a bit shorter than the Model 700 SA.
CM has readily available brass from Alpha Munitions.
No fireforming = longer barrel life on a cartridge that's already going to be short-lived.

So I guess I'd ask in return, why 22-6mm AI when you can pick up high quality brass that's ready to load and shoot immediately?

Just because I want to.

Touche

I thought that the Remington Seven and 700 SA used the same magazine box, follower, and follower spring.

That's correct, but you can get the modified, longer box option, from Wyatt and that will not work in the Seven because the trigger resides there.

i kinda always wanted to build a 22-284 just never did ? but if i did i would call it Rockie from the movie ?????

I had a 22-243_AI set back and ran a 22 creed reamer in it then cut it to 23" its a keeper.... running 75 grain vmaxes at 3250 really easy using Hornadys 6mm creed brass ran thru a Redding bushing die. Easy peasy

I did try a 22-284, It was the worst wildcat that I ever experimented with. barrel life without cutting off and re-chambering was only a few hundred rounds and I could never get the velocity that I expected................not to mention bullet blow-up's.

Switched to 22-250AI and have been happy ever since. there are times when too much is way too much of a good thing, that's what the 22-284 is

I recall speaking with Kevin Wyatt over here in Medford... he had built a 22/284 for customer who was a relocated Texan to here in Oregon....When the customer picked up the gun, Kevin told him that the life span of the barrel was going to be about 250 to 300 rounds or real accuracy... and at about 500 rounds the accuracy was going to be gone.... that at that point, it needed to have the barrel set back and re chambered, or just needed to be replaced....

Price of the barrel work was $500. When Kevin told him the above, the customer quickly plunked down $1000 and told him to start working on two more barrels....for the same action...

Some guys like corvettes - some guys like chivettes

I thought your .220 Swift was a pretty Skookum coyote rifle?

Anybody think a 65 gr Sierra game king would work in a 10 twist. 22 creedmore?
I'm thinking it would be pretty good for coyotes in my neck of the woods. 500 yards and under with maybe a 250 yard zero. Just thinking out loud but the 22 creed is definitely moving the needle for me....

I had a straight 22-250 with a 10 twist barrel, It shot 65 SGK well. But if I was building another I’d go 8 twist, which should also shoot 65s just fine, and then some

Well I can buy that a 22 Creed is an updated 22-250....

These longer bullets and setting shoulders back with a good web under them so they run higher pressures is all good.

Think it would get a 65 sierra game king around 3800+fps?

YES, I have thousands of these bullets. it says right on the box 7"-10"twst bbls

YES, they are "pretty good for coyotes"

NO, not even in your dreams.

Only way you would get them to 3800+fps is if you had an out of whack Shooters Chrony (like most of them were). With a real chronograph you would never hit this mark

Cool....just asking.

I've got an 8 twist 22 250. shoots 88's pretty good. Out of curiosity what kind of velocities with 88's or 75's is a 22 Creedmoor getting?

It’s waaaay more worth shootin shiit brass and fire forming... 😂😂😂

Same/same...

According to my fuzzy math and spelling skills the Creedmoor case diameter should be:

.462 - (.025 x tan(30)) x 2 = .433

This is the Creedmoor diameter at 1.515" from the cartidge base

So the Creedmoor reamer should clean up a .22-250 chamber which measures .416" at the shoulder.

So now the question is if the benefit of the enhanced 30 degree shoulder is worth the effort if you have a .22-250 with a slower twist barrel.

My rem 700 with X-caliber barrel 22 creed 1:7



Shoots great!

I am re-reading Alaska's Wolfman.Frank Glaser liked his 220 Swift for Wolves,sheep,caribou and moose. He didn't like it for griz but did kill a couple with it. Like with Scenarshooter it is more about the hunter/shooter than the tools. I am thinking that a really light rifle w/ a suppressor and a SS 3-9 hd scope would be perfect in 22 creed.

YMMV


mike r

UncleA : Thanks for your Trig-Analysis , pretty much matches my results.
As for your question about the benefit of a slow-twist 22 CM , that project is on pause for now, ha