Hi John and other members,

I have always noticed statements being made, in reloading manuels, about the .280 Remington velocities as being a twin to the .270 Winchester. However, when I have compared the two cartridges the .280 Ackley Improved does not seem to ever equal the custom 26" barreled 270 that I have hunted with for over twenty years. I have owned a .280 Ackley Improved with a 26" barrel that I gave to my youngest son. This improved .280 has done pretty good. BUT, the 26" .270 achieves 3,150 fps with a 140 grain Barnes X Bullet. I have also noticed the same thing with normal
barrel length(22"-24") for the two cartridges. HMMMMMMM?

Do you have any insights and experience that you can share with me on my observations of the two cartridges? Perhaps my experiences do not truly match up with everyone else who has experience with the normal .280 Rem. vs .270 Win. AND the .280 Ackley Improved. vs normal .270
cartridge with a 26" barrel.

Glenn

The SAAMI maximum average pressure for the 280 is 60,000 psi I believe. The 270 is 65,000 psi. If you are using factory ammo that may be the reason you are seeing the velocities you are seeing. When loaded to the same pressure and all else being equal, the 280 should equal or slightly better (due to the larger bullet diameter) 270 velocities.

roanmtn,

That hasn't been my experience with either the standard .280 or .280 AI. Was easily able to get 3100 with 140's in my first .280, a custom rifle with a 23" barrel, and almost 3200 with my present .280 AI's 22" barrel.

HI Mule Deer

Thanks for your speedy reply and also JayJunem. Will you share your loads for the .280 Ackley Improved? I really like RL22 but have also been moving all of my rifles handloads to powder not temperature sensitive. I will be working up loads for my younger son that does not reload yet.

Thanks

roanmntn

I had a 280 built on a Mauser action with a Douglas barrel that with 2 inches more barrel would not equal what my 270 did with 140 gr. bullets. I didn't load to a certain pressure just to the point I thought the loads were safe and the 280 just was not as fast with 140 or 150 gr. bullets. I don't know why but it was a nicely accurate rifle. My 280AI does live up to it's potential but it doesn't really put out enough more velocity to make much difference, though it is also a very accurate rifle.

roantree,

I've generally gotten very good results with 140-grain bullets in the .280 with H4831. Today either version, "short cut" or traditional, provides the same results within the normal variations of powder production. I used the 139-grain Hornady Interlock Spire Point with 60.0 grains in my first .280, a 23" barreled custom rifle by the late Dave Gentry, for just about 3100 fps. In my latest .280, a Sako A7 with a 24-inch barrel, I used 58.5 grains with the 145-grain Speer Grand Slam, also for just about 3100 fps. Both loads used Remington cases.

In the .280 AI I've gotten top velocity with RL-22 and Ramshot Hunter, around 3175-3200 in 22-24" barrels. In my experience Hunter is more temp-resistant and RL-22, but still not as good as some other powders. I'd try H4831, RL-23 or IMR7977.

One problem with the .280 AI is a relative lack of data, and what there is often is around 60,000 PSI, not much more than the standard .280's relatively wimpy pressure levels. As a result I've often pushed published maximums a grain or two, with never a problem.

As a side-note, I generally load bullets heavier than the 139-145 grain range in the .280 AI these days, due to higher ballistic coefficients, which make a much larger difference in downrange performance than extra muzzle velocity with lighter bullets. In my present 22-inch barreled .280 AI among my my favorite loads is a 168 at 2950 or so with 62.0 grains of Reloder 26.

here `s my thought about the standard 280 Remington : its a very fine cartridge,great accuracy just great hunting round. but here`s what a see as a FFL dealer ,a reloader and people who want a 280 Remington that`s not a reloader either. it seems most standard manufactures do not offer many if any models in the 280 rem. ,same with 280 rem. ammo not much to choice from if you can find 280 ammo. seem`s a dang shame that American standard rifle and ammo manufactures can dictate what you can use at a reasonable price in a way . It won`t be much longer and we as looneys if you want to buy a new just a normal priced decent rifle you will have a choice of about 5 or 6 different cartridges and it won`t be a 280 Rem. ,unless you want to do the custom rifle way for much more money for a different cartridge. look`s like if you want a nice 280 Rem. rifle you need to find a decent used rifle sometime. wish you all luck a got a couple 280`s for myself,Pete53

That looks like a very good load.

Been shootin' my current 280 Rem for the better part of 20 yrs. I started out with H4831 and 140 gr bullets. Over the yrs I've tried just about all of those 4350 - 4831 burn class powders. My favorite powder for a good many seasons was RL-22. REALLY good results with 150-160 gr bullets. Many, many deer with that combo.

A few weeks ago I found a really good deal on some IMR 7828. 15 per lb. I bought all they had. Been working on a load with it. Finally settled on a load after shooting today.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/12865885/imr-7828

Thanks Mule Deer

I just ordered & received a one lb container (and other powders) of Rl23. from a reloading supply house near Chattanooga, Tn. Rl23, H4831 and
IMR7977 may be the just the ticket I need.

I live in Johnson City, Tn and have had had a terrible time finding H4350 Powder. I've been following all the conversations on this forum about the disappointment everyone is experiencing while searching for H4350. Mule Deer, I owe you and the other people on this forum a BIG THANK YOU
for telling me about IMR4451. I am ordering a small supply and will experiment to see if it works for me as it has worked very well for all of you.

Mule Deer, the most important magazine story that has totally influenced my shooting was your story about Loads That Really Work. This was a continuation/update of one of your earlier stories. I didn't even know that new powders were on the market that were not temp. sensitive. I had taken a many years vacation from my beloved reloading addiction and was not current on this when I read your article.

Thanks for helping. I'm looking forward to you and all of the other people here commenting on the 280 Ack. Imp.

YOU"RE RIGHT WHEN YOU SAY THERE IS A SCARCITY OF RELOADING DATA FOR THE .280 ACKLEY IMPROVED. I can't locate many loads for the .280 Ackley IMP.

roanmtn

280AI load data:

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle


https://load-data.nosler.com/load-data/280-ackley-improved/

The data for the 280AI on the Hodgdon Reloading site is pretty anemic. Nosler's 280AI data is a much better representation of what the 280AI is capable of.

WiFowler

Just checked out the Nosler site and you are right about the loading data here being better.

Thanks

roanmtn

I have bought the last two versions of the Nosler reloading manuals. They are excellent manuals. I’ll probably by the next one that comes out also. I hope they expand their powder selections to include RE 26 and some others.

Tag

The 280 A1 will replicate 257 Weatherby velocities with the 110gn TTSX
The mid range 150-160 grainers will replicate 7mm Remington Factory ammo

This is not a slander upon the the 257 or the 7mm but rather a separator as it leaves the wonderful 7mm Remington open for use with the 175 grain Partitions which is a very competent place to be for a traveling hunter.

My own 280A1 is a Winchester parts rifle put together with a 22" XTR 7x57 barrel rechambered to 280A1 into a new OEM Winchester Featherweight composite stock. Weighs 6.8 pounds neat and under 7.8 scoped and loaded. My best loads achieve:

110gn TTSX - 3353fps
120gn TTSX - 2218fps
140gn TSX - 3200fps
145gn TTSX - 3040fps
150gn Nosler BT - 3076fps
150gn Nosler Part - 3000fps
154gn Hornady SP - 2923fps
160 Accubond - 2966fps
169gn Partition - 2958fps
175gn Accubond - 2774fps
175gn Partition - 2782fps

John

And though the numbers are good there isn't an incredible performance edge over the 270 other than at the heavy bullet end.

The 270 Winchester is NOT the standard by which all others are measured. Hate to disappoint.

True that would be the 30-06. However the 270 is certainly the cartridge to measure the 280 by.

The higher BC’s of the 7mm bullets is where the edge is!

Does that edge make a difference inside 450 yards, a noticable difference?

Shoot darn near anything through the lungs inside of 450 yards with just about any cartridge with the appropriate bullet and it will die.




P

Yep even with a 150 grain flat based bullet out of a 308.

Or a 140 Partition out of a 7mm-08 into a mulie at 541 yards.





P

Be nice.

Surely agree.

I agree with WiFowler on the Nosler data. Just for reference, I am getting 3200 with a 140 BT and RL 23 in my 24", Lilja barrel 280AI. Don't recall the charge weight off hand.

I finally have my Douglas XX 26" barreled 280 AI Remington 700 put together; as it so happened, the rifle was complete the same day the reloading dies arrived.

I've not shot it over a chrono -- yet. I'm wondering where I should stop velocity-wise, since I don't have a way of measuring true pressure, I would use your estimate of velocity as one of the end points for maximum loads. Not the maximum loads is where I want to end up, but will likely be looking for best accuracy in the 3,000 +/- fps range. I'm guessing ~ 3200 - 3250 fps max in a 26" barrel???

I realize the cases and primers I am using may be different than yours. Plus the throat on my rifle will likely be different, but still your estimate will be helpful.

Finally as a side note: I don't appreciate the 40 - 50% extra cost of buying 280 AI brass, therefore I am fire-forming and breaking the barrel in after dyna bore treatment at the same time. I suspect/hope that some day the AI brass will be the same as the non-AI version.

Thanks for all the help you've given in this forum and your writings.

Bugger:

In addition to MD's guidance buy a Nosler manual. The loads given for the 280AI match closely to the results on my chronograph. Very nice...

When I originally started shooting the 280AI (pre-SAAMI) velocities were generally higher, sometimes much higher than Nosler lab results, as most handloaders depended on case pressure "signs" to one degree or another. That is probably true of every wildcat birthed.

It was unwise then and even more so today with the manuals and chronographs widely available.

I've had a few 280's & a few 270's; never a 280 AI.

The only exact common bullet weight that I use in both the 280 & the 270 is 150 gr.

With that bullet in both guns I get 2950-2975 in a 24" barrel with the 280 & the same in a 22" barreled 270. With a 24" barreled 270, I can get 3000.

But since I have no actual pressure measuring device, it just seems to me that I have to lean harder on the 280 to get there.............but there are no mechanical signs of being overpressure, just a feeling.

I do get 3050 with 140's in the 280 with a 24" barrel, 3120 with a 130 out of the 22" 270, 3150 with a 24" barrel.

For the 280, RL-19 with 140's, RL-15 with 120's & RL-22 / MRP with 150's & 160's (RL-26 might be better today)

For the 270, RL-22 /MRP for 130's & 150's

MM

I have the last two editions.

Bugger,

I'd estimate you can easily and safely those sorts of velocities from your 26-inch barrel.

Thanks MD. It has a 1 in 9 twist and I’ll probably be looking at Accubond or Berger or another slippery bullet. Somewhere I recall reading that the LR version of the Accubond doesn’t penetrate/hold together as well as the “standard” version.

It’s little worry though since my plans for this rifle comprises mainly for coyotes and I shoot them when I can and when it’s legal. Although their hides are worth $’s in the winter I desire their demise for the sake of pheasants.

I drove within 50 yards of one this morning. I had a 44 locked in the console, but I was already late. The Navajo would have told me that was a warning, coyotes crossing your path. I would have liked to have warned hi back...

Mule Deer is getting 2950 with 168’s using R26! That powder will give around 100 FPS more than other powders, I believe.

I have had several standard 280’s, one RCBS version, and two AI’s. I have had many 270’s with 25” and 26” barrels. I also experimented with lengthened the throats in all the cases.

I have never been able to get 7mm/140’s to reach the same velocities as 270/130’s in the standard cases. Several times I had standard 280’s rechambered to improved chambers. At equal pressures the gains were 35-50 FPS.

So a standard 280, throated a little, with an extra 1.5” of barrel gives what the improved case offers.

I cut longer barrels to 22” and always there is about 25 FPS per inch. So a 26” barrel will add about 100 over a 22”.

PS I never kept a 25 or 26 inch barrel. They were too clunky to pack around in rough country.

Most of my rifles are 22", some as short as 18", a few magnums are 24". This is the only 26". Long barrels are not so bad on the prairie or in the open. I have a couple rifles for the woods and for rough country.

I sure wouldn't want them to be all the same!

Now down to what vcan I hit with this rifle

With a 168 gr Match Grade VLD hunting bullet by Berger at 3250 fps with a side wind of 15 mph, sighted in at 200 yards, scope height 1" above bore. 15 mph side wind my phone ap (named Shooter) says

100 yards +1.3", drift = .6"
200 yards 0", drift=2.6"
300 yards -5.4", drift=5.9"
400 yards -15.2", drift =10.7"
500 yards -30", drift = 17.1"

Consider the size of the chest of a coyote - (main purpose for this rifle) and guessing the wind speed by the grass and the leaves on the trees - I guess 20 mph side wind then the error of my guess would result in:

200 yard drift = 3.4" (error of 3.4-2.6= .8")
300 yard drift = 7.8" (error of 7.8-5.9"=1.9")
400 yard drift = 14.3" (error of 14.3-10.7=3.6")
500 yard drift = 22.8"(error of 22.8-17.1"=5.7")

add 3/4 MOA accuracy and the error at 400 yards is approximately 1.5" more or 5.1"

I would only need to know the distance. My pnone ap BTW gives the information on drop and drift every 50 yards when set max at 500 yards.

Using a 162 gr SST at 3300 fps

the 500 yard drift is still only 19.1" at 500 yards with a cross wind of 15 mph.

So some will probably ask me why are you using such heavy bullets for a coyote? Why such a big cartridge? Why such a long barrel?

My phone ap doesn't have 168 grain Nosler Accubonds so I can't get those readings, but with those, any game in the 49 states, maybe 50 should be covered by the 280 AI.

If I were to have a 280 AI for everything from coyotes on up the barrel length and the velocity would drop some. But as for an all-around rifle, it seems that the 280 AI would fit my needs.

(The 280 Remington has been one of my all time favorite cartidges and I have two with 22" barrels.)

Bugger,

I'm confused. Are you talking about getting those speeds with those bullets in a 280 AI? I can't see it. You may be able to squeak 3K out of those bullets, but little more. If you wanted to shoot 3250-3300, I would suggest Berger's 140 VLDH in your 280 AI. In fact, I'd recommend it over the heavies anyway, if you are only planning to shoot to 500 or so.

And I am curious how you set up your phone app. I ran your numbers in the app that I use, and got different values. I've also never seen a scope height that low. The lowest scope mounts I use still put the center line of the scope 1.7" or so over the center axis of the bore.

You're right on the height. I hastily threw that together this morning. My 280AI has a 26" barrel. If JB's getting almost 3,000 fps with a 22" barrel with 168 grain bullets, then perhaps 3,300 fps with 162 grain is in the ball park. What do you think? I will likely never load that high a pressure though and will stop when the accuracy is best. Those numbers are possible, I think. But if I were to be loading that high a velocity I do have a 7mm RM also with a 26" barrel. I was talking possibilities, not where I normally would load.

Tag

My .280 Rem. is a custom based on a 1909 Argentine Mauser by DWM. A 24" barrel and woodwork by Sterling Davenport. I've been playing with a now long discontinued power, Winchester magnum Rifle (WMR). It's has given great results in velocity and accuracy in my .270 Win. and .300 Win. Mag. so I decided to give it a try in the .280.
I used the data given in Winchester's little load booklet #15. I started 10percent below and worked up to the maximum in the booklet. (57.8 gr./2795 FPS/56,800 P.S.I.) My velocity was 2907 FPS average with the Speer 160 gr. Grand Slam, two three shot groups average .80". Loads were worked up a half grain at at time and chronographed while closely watching each increase per charge change. Primers stayed round and case head and pressure ring measurement were within allow tolerances.
Why WMR? Mostly because I have quite a large amount on hand, I figured it'd work very well in the .270 and .300 Win Mag. so why not the .280? Funny thing is it is a total disaster in the 30-06. Believe me I tried. Methinks I'll be taking that .280 on my next elk hunt.
Paul B.

I get 3200 fps with 63 gr N 165 in my 280 AI, 1/2 moa

I have said it before and will say it again.... I think it is funny a 26" barrel on a rifle is too long for use in heavier cover while a 26" barrel on a shotgun is handy in heavier cover.

A little reminder:

Remington brought out the 280 R to 'simulate' 270 Win performance in their semi-auto.

The kiss of death being the semi-auto. They'd been a whole lot better off simply developing the 280 closer to it potential.
The rest is HISTORY.


Jerry

You're thinking of the 284 W, Jerry. The 280 came out in 1957 in a bolt gun.

No, I wasn't thinking of Winchester's 284.

Jerry

The first .280 I ever saw was as a teen, it was in a friends Mod 740. He was the "only" one in the area! Later in life, after reading a lot of Jim Carmichael, I bought my very first bolt gun (I'm not counting the Mod 1917 my uncle gave me several years before) a Mod 77 in .280. It had been in the same gun store for a over a year when it was marked down "for the third time". this was in '77-78. I got and started handloading with a LEE Classic Loader, an RCBS bean scale and three loading manuals, ha. I used the factory 150cl that first year's hunt ( while I was gathering up my reloading stuff) shot as nice buck at 15yds ( Big thicket, East, Tx) no challenge, ha. I then handloaded the Hornady 139gr sp over 55gr IMR4831 in those same box of cases all summer! I would load a box, then have to drive 35 miles away to a 200yd range and practice. I went several times that summer. Come that Fall, I shot a nice buck on a pipeline right of way at 276 long steps! I actually "thought" he was around 220yds or so! Sighted +2@100 I just held dead on. I found the bullet under the hide on the far side, but it killed that buck so quick he still had a mouthful of grass in his mouth. I killed a hog that year then for Xmas was given my first 7mm Mag, Mod 700. The 280 got traded for a new Colt Python and I used that 7mm for another 10yrs. I Played with a 257AI, but always hunt ed with the Big 7. I could have done everything I ever did with any 7mag with that same Mod 77 .280, ha. But man! I sure had fun along the way!

From the pages of Hornady Reloading Manual:




Jerry

^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^




No Not All but the 270 Win IS the standard by which the 280 Rem WAS compared.


Jerry

From the pages of Hornady Reloading Manual:





Oh Yeah ? GRIN My Memory has holes in it too.

Jerry