I plan to reload for my 45/70 using shortened 1.8" long cases to meet the legal case dimension limits here in my part of Michigan.
I am thinking about using the Hornady 325 FTX. I have a shorter custom Lee Factory Crimp Die and will likely seat the bullets to an overall cartridge length of 2.52".
I am thinking to use H4198 powder and CCI 200 primers. I only had one bullet left from previous trials with full length cases (seated long at 2.7" and singly loaded).
With the 1.8" case I tried 45 grains of H4198 with the bullet seated to 2.52" and crimped and got 1700 fps from my Marlin 1895 SBL with the 18.5" barrel.
Will this bullet perform well on deer? I sure imagine so but I have only shot paper so far with this bullet.
Has anyone else worked up a load with this shortened case and bullet and powder? If so what would be sensible max powder charge and velocity?
I would think that I should be able to safely duplicate Hornady's factory velocity since even though my case is shorter my overall cartridge length is long, thus yielding similar actual powder volume.
Comments?
Guess I am on my own here.
I’d imagine that if old BP rifles, not inline, moving round lead balls at much lower speeds has accounted for many a dead deer, can’t see why .45 cal 325gr at your stated velocity not being able to do the same.
I used to load a lot of 45-70. But I no longer have any rifles in that caliber. I do have many friends who do however and some of those rifles used to be mine.
So,,,,,,,,will the 325 FTX "preform"
Yes!
How do I know?
Well I have used 340 and 325 grain hard cast bullets on deer in years past and they didn't expand at all. In fact I have used bullets from 300 to 550 grains at speeds from sub-sonic up to 1900 fps depending on the exact load. They all worked fine, and some, were used to kill bear and elk too. A light load from a 45-70 is the full equal, (plus some,) of any 44 Mag handgun, and I have killed a lot of game with 44s from revolvers. In my life (so far) I have never had to shoot twice either.
If you look out your window I am sure you will NOT see about 167,000,000 buffalo.
One of the reasons you don't see them is the old 500 grain round nose soft lead bullets of the 1870s-1880s and they left the muzzle of 32 inch long barrels at only about 1200 FPS, but killed 1500 to 2300 pound buffalo easily, and at some pretty long distances too.
The 45-70 is still a fairly popular rifle for Wyoming hunters in the northern and western parts of the state because they kill elk very well, but also because they are very comforting when you are surrounded by grizzlies. We are!
The FTX has a reputation for being fairly "soft" and expanding very violently and for a lack of penetration as compared to many other bullets.............when used on elk, moose, big bears and buffalo.
But you are talking about deer!
Don't over-think this! You are very well armed with a 45-70. Trust it, and go out and practice until you cna hit running rabbits with it. If you shoot well you will NEVER have to worry that your 45-70 may be lacking.
I think about ANY bullet you can load in a 45-70, at ANY muzzle velocity of 900 FPS or faster is going to be just fine for ANY whitetail that ever walked in the N. American continent.
Go kill some and then come back here and tell us all how well it worked You will not likely recover the bullet, but we'd be interested in the shot angle and the size of the wound channel.
Based upon what I've read on other hunting forums the Hornady 325 FTX has a tendency to blow up on shoulder shots of deer or larger animals. It would probably be okay for a lung shot, These
comments were all based upon the factory loadings of around 2000 fps if memory serves me correctly.
I have a 45-70 that I am going to use on bear over bait, and I splurged and bought some Swift-A frame cartridges. These use the A-frame partition bullet at about 1770 fps and should hold
together if hitting bone, yet open up in soft tissue.
BH63
I have been using it in my 45.70 for several years over a stiff charge of 4895.. Accurate, and it performs very well.
I've used the 325 FTX on deer and hogs with good success in my Marlin 1895 with a 22" barrel. It might be a little thinly constructed for heavy game, but it was designed for deer. At any velocity below 2000fps it should work great.
while i haven't used that combination, i would think that at any reasonable velocity it ought to be more than adequate for deer
rufous,
It should work fine. When in doubt, go to the manufacturer for advice about their products. Hornady recommends this bullet for deer and elk. They suggest a muzzle velocity of 1300 to 2300 fps, so a light charge is all you need.
https://www.hornady.com/contact If you have a question about this bullet and a good load, you can go to this page and click on Technical Support Questions. You can submit your question to them directly. Get what you need right from the horse's mouth.
Thanks for the feedback. I will give them a try.
I did reach out to Hornady. Here is their reply:
"The trim to length that we recommend and use for our 45-70 FTX and MonoFlex loads is 2.040" and we have not pressure tested these loads in cases shorter than that. The C.O.L., when using our 325 grain grain FTX bullet, is 2.590".
The 325 grain FTX bullet has a terminal velocity range from 1300 to 2300, this would be impact velocity; no worries about putting it on the shoulder. At the low end of velocity I would put it on a shoulder rather than through the lungs to help the bullet perform better. The loads you are talking about are within our load data range for H 4198 but again we have not pressure tested in the shorter case."
I was surprised to see the seating depth at 2.59" as I thought normal max was 2.55" for reliable feeding.
I have seen it used on deer in Ohio and it was very effective in factory 45/70 loadings. Huge blood trail and massive damage. The deer was shot in the vitals and the damage was extensive.
I used it on pigs loaded to 2020fps. Worked really well. Very accurate too.
I have killed deer with the FTX bullet in several calibers, including 450 marlin and 45-70. To my way of thinking iit is too explosive. Sure, it has no problem penetrating a deer. But, it does too much damage. Hit a shoulder and loose one and most of the other. While being very accurate, it just destroys too much meat. I have gone to the Remington 405 grain JSP or the Hornady 350 Flat Point.
In smaller calibers such as the 35 Remington it is an awesome deer bullet. The smaller calibers seem to hold together better.
I've killed three deer with that bullet so far, my buddy two. Pretty much DRT. Blood shot meat? Keep it out of the meat and really you don't loose any more than you would with an '06 on the same shot.
But I load it with 51.5 grains H322 for 1900-1950 FPS. In our situation there is no need to run it full throttle. I imagine that additional 300 FPS could make the bullet act differently. I guess if I was hunting out in the open I would, but ours is woods and a shot's around 50 yards is the norm and out to 200 is impossible.
People make a false assumption that every load they make has to be as fast as it can be.
Rufous,
My go to load in my Inline Black powder rifle, was 300gr hornady XTP over top 90gr of 777. That produced around 1600 fps. I could fill a dump truck with the deer I have knocked over with that load. I have NO doubts that the 325gr out of the 45-70 at the velocity you stated will serve you well. All of my shooting was done inside 150 yards with the large majority being under 100 yards. I know this is not an apples to apple comparison, but keep the ranges sane and you should be fine.
I've used the 325ftx in my muzzleloader at 2400fps. Kills deer but the bullets don't hold together.
I have killed deer and hogs here in Texas with a Marlin 1895 45/70 shooting factory 325FTX loads with great success. The bullets group good and kill quickly. No problems on Texas deer and hogs.
I shot 2 deer last year with Hornady factory loads out of a 1895 Guide Gun with an 18 inch barrel at 40-60 yards. I was very impressed with the performance and lack of meet damage. The buck was quartering to and entrance through the shoulder and still lost very little meat. The doe went farther than ideal but my hit was farther back than I planned and I hit no bone. Good expansion but no blood trail. I don’t blame the bullet though as it clearly left 2 good holes. I wouldn’t hesitate to use this bullet again on deer at this velocity.
Guess I am on my own here.
If you're going to load your 45-70 with smokeless and a copper jacketed lead bullet, at least load the old 350 gr round nosed Hornady, I would never piss in the old Warhorses face by loading it with a plastic tipped bullet.
I load mine with Black Powder and cast lead bullets, good luck and happy loading and hunting.
I like the hornady FTX lever factory ammo for whitrtails!
I would just have you consider using magnum primers instead of regular ones.
Good luck. Let us know how you get on please!
I just don't need a pointy bullet in my open sighted 45-70.
I've used it on deer and 1 coyote from my .450 Marlin. Every deer has been bang flop, not a twitch afterwards. All exited. The coyote was a mess.
I was very satisfied with very little blood shot meat also.
Me thinks big and slow makes the butcher glow!
I'm looking at getting the CVA single shot in 444. That has the 25" Bergara barrel. I probably would use the FTX in that.
After doing some more shooting I think I am good to go for deer this fall. My load is using the Hornady 325 FTX seated to 2.56" in shortened cases measuring 1.795". I am using CCI 200 Primers and 48 grains of H4198. Not certain of the velocity as my chronograph is acting up but I think it is about 1900 fps.
I have a Leupold 2-7x scope with additional aim points. Zeroed at 100 the next dot down is on at 150 and the next one down is on at 200. Accuracy is plenty good. 1 group at 100 and 1 at 200 and 2 groups at 150. Average accuracy is 1.45 MOA.
I meant to say thanks to all of you who shared your experience. Greatly appreciated!
I was able to kill 2 does this fall with this load. The first one was shot the day after Thanksgiving. She was about 20 yards away and was quartering away slightly. The bullet entered at the back end of the rib cage and exited and broke her offside elbow. She ran about 25 yards and died. Not much of a blood trail.
The second doe was killed yesterday. She was broadside at 60 yards. The bullet punched through her lungs, leaving a similarly sized exit hole as the entrance hole. She ran about 50 yards. Not much of a blood trail.
I would prefer a better blood trail. I fear eventually losing a deer.
Not sure what bullet to try to give a better blood trail.
Anyone have any experience using the Lehigh 305 grain controlled fracturing bullet?
Rufous,
Good job on the 45-70 Short. I live in MI also and was thinking about cutting back the 45-70 case to 1.8" like you to meet the regulations for the southern deer hunting zone. Did you have a problem with thick necks on the shorter cases to seat the bullet? I, along with a few of my buddies have been hunting for years with 45-70's and find cast bullets work great in it as well as they do in 44 mag and 45 colt handguns and never had a problem with deer, boar, bison and bear with them.
Gumfighter
I am not having any problems with thick necks. I killed a doe last year with my 45 Colt revolver and a 290 grain cast bullet. Worked just fine but again, minimal blood trail. That is my only complaint but so far I have easily recovered all 3 deer.
What town do you live in?
S. Lyon, near Brighton. I usually shoot for the shoulder with cast. Usually drop right there. I bought a bunch of Remington 458 dia 300 gr HP years ago. Still have some left and use them once in a while. Shot a big 8 point a few years ago on a friend's farm in Kentucky with it about 1800 fps in my marlin. Thru both lungs broadside at about 20 yards, dropped right there. After the holidays I am going to try cutting back the case and working up some loads for it with cast. Probably keep them about 1400 to 1600 max. Should work Ok for me. I don't shoot over 100 yards on the property I hunt. In fact, most of the shots for me are bow range or 50 yards max in most of the blinds I use. Good luck and Merry Christmas.
Gunfighter, in order to reload with the shorter case you will need to have a machine shop shorten the resizing die and you will need a custom Lee Factory crimp die.
I got a buddy who can grind down an extra resizing die for me and I'll order a crimp die. Thanks,