about straight cartridges vs straightened cartridges. When reloading rifle cartridges, I try to get the most concentricity I can with what I have in the way of equipment. When re-sizing, I make sure my die is squared up with the shell holder. I remove the decapper/expander stem from the die then replace it loosely after re-sizing and expand the neck on a downstroke so as to not disturb the neck alignment. I measure neck thickness on each piece of brass for uniformity. When seating the bullet, I am careful to keep it as straight as possible. My goal is to keep concentricity within .002 or less on each cartridge, yet on about one out of four that I run thru my concentricity gauge exceeds that amount up to .006/.008. I use the Tru-tool or the Hornady gauge itself to straighten those that are out of spec. My question is this: Do straightened cartridges shoot as accurately as those that need no straightening? Should I cull out the “straightened” cartridges for plinking use? My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer. Sometimes “yes” and sometimes “no”. What say you?

You just answered your own question.....further.....you didn't ask.....unless you have a benchrest quality rifle, the entire process you mentioned is a waste of time.

If you concentricity is down to .0006"/.0008" you wont be able to measure any additional accuracy by correcting the rounds let alone between corrected and uncorrected. Is there any chance you meant .006"/.008"?

My bad! Yes, I meant .006/.008. I’ll fix the post.

I disagree. I load for several different sporters that very well show the difference between .008" and .002" runout cartridges.

Yeah, even with full-length sized handloads, or factory ammo, with an accurate sporter there's normally a big difference in accuracy between .002" and .008" runout, and often even between .002" and .005".

You'll see more improvement in your groups getting runout down from .008" to .002" than you will doing things like weighing charges to the nearest tenth of a gnat's ass.

Yup.

FWIW, I'm a innanet nobody, kind of a hunter, not a shooter, and definitely not a gun writer. Still, even I can see a difference in groups with .003 runout and above. Also, in my experience, naturally straight, vs. straightened with a Tru-Angle tool, makes no difference.

The F-class guys might have different answers, but those are mine.

Good Luck,

FC

In my experience that depends on how much straightening had to be done.

I think what you need to do is examine how you are setting up your die. I am confused, or perhaps fail to understand why 1 out of every 4 seems to be excessive. If the die is set up correctly, and everything is tight, then all the cartridges should be fine, unless you have a bad die. But heck, even If the die was the problem, then run out would be excessive for most if not all of them. Don't mess with the decapper. Install it tightly, the way the manufacturer describes. Wobbly parts introduce inconsistencies.

I would start from scratch and set up the die according to the manufacturer's recommendation. Don't overthink the method.

The last thing, "My shooting ability (or that of the rifle) can’t discern a concistent answer." suggests to me that you must start back at the beginning. Please don't take this the wrong way, but you are trying to do too much. Don't attempt to load cartridges using any method other than what is in the manufacturer's instructions. The KISS principle is the way to go here. Ignore anything that you've read WRT die set up and stick with the basics.

If his ability can't discern a difference it's still a waste of time.

precisely.....

And the quickest and easiest way to accomplish this is to use quality dies. Perhaps not the cheapest, but still the best. Since I've started using Forster dies I can almost throw away my concentrically gauge.

I shoot 600/1000 yard Benchrest, and I check/straighten every round, down to a half a thou or less runout. All are "record" rounds.

Last match I won both Light Gun and Heavy Gun group aggs.........

I definitely can tell the difference in groups fired with cartridges that have run-out that varies by .002/.008. My question was “do straightened rounds shoot on a par with rounds that are concentric to begin with”.

FC,
Your’s is the answer I was looking for and hope is true since it seems that I have to straighten several out of a box of fifty. Thanks.


Mule Deer,
It is your fault (along with Mathman) that I question such things as run-out. I read your books! For years I just took whatever came out of the bullet seating die and wondered about those fliers......


Steve,
To clarify, I don’t remove primers with the sizing die but instead use a universal decapper for that purpose. The reason I leave the expander stem loose is that I re-size without it in the die, then in an added step I re-install the stem and expand the necks on the upstroke of the case. I leave it loose thinking it will self-center as it goes into the case.

Thanks aalf,
That pretty much answers my question.

I’ve seen Doug shoot. He doesn’t lack ability...

Since I haven’t shot for competition since 1985, I don’t often worry much about deer loads because I like to get close. But coyote and PD shooting...

Forester as good as other dies in the +$100 range?

Thanks Marty,
I think Blackheart misunderstood my original post, or at least my question. I referred to not being able to tell the difference between groups shot with “straightened” ammunition compared to ammunition that comes out of the seating die “straight”. I never said that I couldn’t tell the difference between ammo with a run-out variation between .002 and .008.

6 Dasher, BTW.........

Better in my opinion.

The only time I buy Redding Benchrest dies now is when it's an odd ball caliber that I can't get in Forster.

Brownells finally had Forster dies for my next build, 6x45, so I'm happy to have those on the way.

Thanks. There’s no way that I’m going to straighten every PD bullet. But having dies that good would be worth it.

Forster dies are all that I buy any more.

I can tell the difference in .002/.008" runout in all my rifles. If you're talking about a 1.5 moa rifle then you probably couldn't tell the difference, but mine all shoot better than that with good ammo. In my experience going from .002 to .008" runout will at least double your group sizes.

If I'm seeing .008" runout then there's something wrong with my setup and I tweak it until it's fixed.

Isn't anyone going to answer Lastrounds question? I've seen good answers to questions that were not asked. In my somewhat limited experience, the answer is yes or close to it.

Forster's primary sizing dies (those with an expander ball) are very good, and I use several.

But aside from being well-made, the other reason they result in straighter case necks (and hence loaded rounds) is the expander ball's high up inside the die, just below the neck portion of the die. Thus the neck of the case is still inside the neck portion of the die when it's pulled back over the expander, so the case is forced to remain in-line with the die. This definitely results in straighter necks than standard sizing dies where the expander ball is down near the bottom of the case, where necks can pull out of alignment.

That said, if the case necks aren't very even in thickness the neck alignment can still be a little off even with Forster dies, but generally not more than .002".

Through experimentation I've found other makes of full-length dies produce very straight cases IF the expander ball's raised to just under the neck portion of the die. I've found basic RCBS dies can be adjusted to do exactly this--though of course decapping the case requires another step (one reason a Lee decapping die permanently resides in one hole of my turret presses).

I tend to use bushing dies when loading bigger batches of brass, or Lee collet dies. But there's no doubt that "hand dies" produce the very straightest brass, whether the basic Lee Loaders, or more sophisticated dies like Wilsons. Have loaded consistently sub-half-inch (5-shot groups) .22 Hornet ammo with Lee Loader "hand" dies.

The best bullet alignment results in any of my "press dies" comes from Redding Competition bushing dies in 6mm PPC, with sorted and neck-turned Lapua and Norma brass. Bullet runout is a maximum of .0005", one reason 5-shot groups from my Erhardt benchrest rifle average well under .2 inch at 100 yards, despite my less-than-perfect bench techniques.

Some great information on this thread. I've just recently purchased a Hornady concentricity gauge and I checked the handloaded ammo I had on hand for five different chamberings. All needed some tweaking to get the runout at or under 0.002" but the worst offender was my .280 Ackley. I'm amazed it has shot as well as it has with the runout I found on these rounds. Hopefully it will group even better with straight ammo.

Thanks for that MD! I’m looking at Graf’s website (I’ll be looking at others too) and trying to determine what if any dies to order.
For instance, I have several hunting rifles (all 700’s or 721’s) that 1/2 MOA or less is possible with selected loads. But to do that the brass is hand picked/worked over and careful reloading. I’m using mostly RCBS standard dies and the brass is plain old Remington or Winchester brass.
Shooting at long range is the basic reason for wanting to improve accuracy. But a slight varying breeze can screw up accuracy and I wonder will reducing group size .1 to .2 MOA be worth ~$60 per cartridge???

What I mainly gather from your comments is concentricity is the bottom line (the straight line if you will) therefore just buying/using a benchrest seating die may not improve the accuracy and the sizing die (besides the case prep) is similarly important as the seating die.

I have several PD rifles, the one cartridge I use most for PD has been 223. (Subject to change to 204 Ruger).
Therefore, before I dump $1,000+ in replacing dies, I think I’ll start with one set of 223 dies or perhaps 204 dies and do some or a lot of testing.

It’s unbelievable that we have on-line access to someone with your experience and expertise. Thanks again.

I have too. I generally shoot for .003" TIR or less, because of this. Generally my dies get me in that ballpark without all the hassle the OP states he has to go through..

Good post Steve, I do the same as you do... Keep it simple..

You need to start with your die set and make sure it is adjusted properly. You can minimize run out tremendously by just adjusting the die... This is probably the case with that .280 AI...

Also check to see your decapping rod and expander ball are in alignment, not bent or threaded badly/crooked where the expander ball attaches. It should be checked to be sure it has no run out. Seen them on occasion where they resemble a banana rolling across a table. Hard to make straight necks when they're like that.

I have been using MDs idea on how to make standard sizing dies preform better.


Through experimentation I've found other makes of full-length dies produce very straight cases IF the expander ball's raised to just under the neck portion of the die. I've found basic RCBS dies can be adjusted to do exactly this--though of course decapping the case requires another step (one reason a Lee decapping die permanently resides in one hole of my turret presses).Quote JB

Plus I free float the die in place.A lot of folks think free floating the die means to leave it loose.Not so.You run the case up into the die with the expanding ball loose.As you start the stroke down and the inside of the case neck goes onto the expander ball,you tighten the ball down.The die is now free floated and you can finish your sizing.Yes it takes and extra step of using the universal decaping die first,but run out is at a mininum.I don`t even check the runout anymore as I am not shooting BR.JMHO,Huntz

No, not precisely. My disagreement is with the "unless you have a benchrest quality rifle" assertion.

I answered "it depends". Rounds that needed a lot of straightening haven't shot as well for me as those needing only a little.

Aalf straightens his, but I don't know how much. I bet his starting point is pretty straight already.

I too, use an old Lee decapping die that I bought in the dim times.

Just for fun, try tightening up the expander/decapping assy, decap with it, and check the runout. You don't have to do a lot, but based on what you said about 1 in 4 cases being excessive, try running 20 or so cases through and check the runout just using the one die. They should all measure the same. If they all measure 0.002, then your loose expander was the likely culprit. Problem solved.

Another reason I like Forsters is their honing service. About half my full length forster dies have been honed to my desired neck diameter. I usually take a skim cut with the neck turner then have the die honed to .003" less than a loaded round. I throw away the expander ball. I've had good luck with the honed dies.

You can easily check this.

Take 10 rounds that meet you specs. and group them.
Take 10 rounds that did not meet your specs. and group them.
Take 10 rounds that did not meet your specs., stragthen them, and group them.

Unless you are a very good shot, with good equipment (and I do not know the answer), you may find that your shooting abilities are more inconsistent than your handloads.

I thought I answered it as well.....

My BR rounds, prior to straightening, range from zero runout to maybe a couple thou or so. All get checked, and any over about a half get straightened. All get put in the box randomly as record rounds.

Once in a while you'll get one that you chase back and forth to straighten, & I will cull that one for a foul/sighter shot.

You can easily check this.

Take 10 rounds that meet you specs. and group them.
Take 10 rounds that did not meet your specs. and group them.
Take 10 rounds that did not meet your specs., straighten them, and group them.


I think GeorgiaBoy answered the question the very well.

No offense meant, but it is amazing how many answers I got to a question I did not ask and solutions to problems I do not have. But thanks to all who answered my post. And I am waiting for a new Forster sizing die. Have a good evening...........

That's what we're here for.

By Campfire standards this thread stayed on subject. Not once were you told you need a new rifle, in a new caliber, or told you were gay or a homophobic for asking a straight question.

Spot on. All things considered we were on our best behavior. It can be a lot different. You omitted rebedding and a new scope.

Somebody will be along soon to tell you your test is invalid because you didn't use 100 shot groups, when they will have performed no such testing at all.

I gave up on all that crap. I could never figure out why/how I could load a batch of ammo that went from 0 to >.008 on the same set up. It's Remington's problem now....or Hornady....or Federal...or whatever is on sale.

I'm of a similar mind. I'm grateful for all the effort others have gone to to show the benefit of reducing runout. It has helped me make better ammo, but I'm not about to start 100% checking or culling for runout. Nearly all of my shooting is at 200 yd. or less. That beyond 200 is at paper and steel. My time is better spent reducing much greater errors from my shooting than correcting what 16bore has shown.

I still enjoy "all that crap." I've got my equipment and set up worked out so if the assembled cartridge runout is over .003" it's a lock that the particular piece of brass has so-so neck walls.

I need to reduce the "runout" in my offhand shooting.

Not poo pooing it really...just went sorta minimalist with my stuff. You certainly shoot more as a handloader and learn your way around a bullet. Two weeks of deer season, maybe some odd trips here and there, and pinging steel is about all I do anymore. And clays. Hell, I put a 22LR top end on my 1911 and forgot what 45 ACP feels like. Ha!

Reckon I'll change my handle to "16 Bored"......especially now that I'm schlepping a 270 and factory fodder.

Not my area but a question for the precision shooters. If the dies are set up properly and you are still seeing excessive run out doesn't that indicate a case problem? Correct me if I am wrong but even if you turn the necks won't inconsistent case wall thickness in the body of the case add run out on each firing? I know the dies will align the neck but won't if be a recurring problem?

Agree straightened cases will shoot with ones that started with low run out but isn't it better to cull the out of line cases?

Really bad case bodies do cause trouble as well.

IME it depends on how much straightening it took.

Sometimes, you just have those days where nothing goes right.....223AI, Lapua brass, Reddings. Ray Charles called and said I had some runout issues. Don't know what he was talking about.

Do you have a pic of the bottom ends of those same two rounds?

That ship sailed a long, long time ago....

I asked because I've dealt with a couple of "fat bottomed" chambers and runout. If there's a noticeable expansion ring just forward of the web area you're almost always going to see runout in assembled cartridges unless the body section of the die is tight near the bottom and goes well down to the extractor groove of the case.

Inane attempt at humor.

Please fix that.

More inanity.

Don't shoot the messenger.

Test, if you feel the need. Slagging the company is uncalled for unless you have proof to the contrary. I encourage you to try your own test.

I got a hold of Lee Precision and asked them about their claim re: crimping. Specifically, if they tested it, and if it could improve group size. Here is their response.

Hello Stephen,

Yes, crimping has been tested.

Crimping serves two purposes. The first and better known reason is to lock the bullet in position in the case. The second and lessor known reason is to uniform the start pressure of the cartridge. The start pressure is the pressure at which the bullet begins to move in the case. Assuming all the components of the cartridge are equal if the bullet begins to move at the same pressure from each cartridge this will result in a more uniform powder burn and acceleration of the bullet down the barrel. This results in the bullets leaving the barrel with less velocity deviation from one cartridge from the next. The smaller velocity deviation is the smaller the group size will be on the target.

Many bench rest and target shooters control start pressure by loading the cartridge to an overall length that places the bullet very close to or even in contact with the rifling. This type of ammunition is generally finger fed into the firearm. Loading like this is not always possible in all firearms and situations. There are limits to how long the cartridge can be and still fit in the magazine or feed through the action of the firearm. Crimping the cartridge mimics loading close to the rifling and results in greater accuracy in firearms that limits to the overall length of the cartridge the gun will accept.

Testing your own ammunition is easy. Load some ammunition with your pet load recipe. Then crimp 1/2 of the cartridges. The crimped ammunition will almost always out preform the ammunition that has not been crimped. I frequently get comments from the field of small shot groups that have gotten smaller when the shooter crimped their ammunition.

Thanks.

As a Journeyman Tool & Die Maker many of the dies and other work that I made had a tolerance of +/- .00002", that's plus or minus 2 tenths folks. What many don't realize is what a fine tolerance a tenth is, a particle of dust is two tenths thick. Just the very nature of loading ammunition makes achieving tenth tolerances in loaded ammunition no matter what kind of dies or technique. It is a total waste of time and due to cartridge fit in the rifle chamber, throat and leade precision and many other factors striving for that kind of tolerance in loaded ammo will not produce any significant measurable improvement in group size.

I expected this. Machine tolerances are an interesting sidebar, but what about the claim of consistent pressure? Has anyone tested it?

I tested it one a several loads in several rifles. Not many, but of those tested uncrimped shot better. To be fair all bullets had a crimping groove, and all were seated to put the groove at the case mouth. Lee's response sounds good to me, but I haven't been able to get better accuracy with crimping. One test was with the .30-30. Uncrimped shot best, Lee factory crimp second, and Lee roll crimp worst. One test, I don't remember which one, the crimped loads were much worse, but usually the difference was small. All testing was done with 10 shot groups at 100 yards.

Anyone else?

Except for in pistols crimped loads were less accurate for me. Roll crimping can increase run out especially if the case length is not completely uniform. I find the same benefits Lee is claiming by adjusting case neck tension. In a factory chamber I think the run out is less critical unless way out of spec. One test found that even the military O3A3 chambers would straighten out cases with .06 run out to a certain extent.

For a few years now I've straightened all my loaded ammo. I use to seperate ammo that came out .002 or less from ammo that had as much as .007 runout all of which I "straightened" to less than .001. I could not tell any difference often testing loads at 500 yds so I don't separate anymore.



Trystan