a long time ago on another hunting board, there used to be a British deer professional. He killed as many as 100 deer each year. Many were in relatively small enclosures, but many were on estates. They were mainly fallow and reds. I believe he used a 6.5 Swede, the other a 257 Roberts. He mainly used heart/lung shots. He said that a deer shot with a heart lung shot lived about 8-9 seconds. that was the time it took an oxygen deprived brain to quit functioning. Many fell at the shot, others ran but only for nine seconds or less. My observations seem to bear this out. What' your opinion? capt david

Many animals take about 10 seconds to die. Deer are not unusual. The variable is each animal uses that 10 seconds differently

Many variables come into play, not the least of which is bullet selection and performance, but that's another topic entirely.. Considering heart-lung placement, the calibers mentioned and similar cartridges I have used: I have found that a deer that is undisturbed and unaware of my presence will often go right down at the shot, even when no bones larger than ribs are impacted. A deer that is on heightened alert and with adrenalin flowing may cover some distance before collapsing. Ditto for hogs, although if they run even 2-3 seconds, they tend to find the thickest and thorniest patch of brush to die in. Deer that run generally seem to follow known trails. Can't say the same for hogs.

Most of my lung shot deer travel about 40-50 yards. That takes less then 9 seconds. I'd guess 3-5 seconds.

However, last year's buck covered about 130 yards. Not sure how long that took as he was out of sight for most of the way. They can cover a lot of ground in 9 seconds if they take off.

It depends. Ten seconds seems long for a double lung w. heart on a whitetail. Normally, with a 30-06, I see them go down either right there, or they run no more than 80 yards. That is, you can stand in their tracks where they were shot and see the carcass.

At the end of the day - the critter computer (brain) dictates how fast they go down.

Immediate drops -
- direct brain / brain stem / neck nerve shots
- A shot at the vessels feeding the brain (kind of like when you stand up to fast and faint)
To get those you have to hit above the heart, there are check valves that keep the blood pressure up if you just take the heart out.

After that you have the bleed out - which depends on how long it takes to loose brain pressure

If you use a bow, you can “grunt” a buck after you shoot him and then you can watch things take place because he’ll stop and look for the buck that just poked him.

That's how I usually measure it, in yards. I've seen deer and antelope take off and run until they drop. Sometime they run a bit and stop before their legs go out from under them.

Maybe Mule Deer will chime in, he once told me about 12 seconds, and I concur...many die quicker but it seems on a good shot the hydraulics run out by 12 seconds...

Seen plenty take a sprint and get farther in just a few seconds than I would have immagined. I'd hate to have to drag one back that had
sprinted for 12 secs. 😫

Very much if the heart is under pressure or not.......
When pumping blood it “explodes” sort of. Think of the pressure in the aorta and what would happen if relaxed or under full pressure.

He was contracted to kill 500-600 per year off of several large estates. His main rifles were a pair of Tikka 695's one in .270 and the other in 6.5x55. He had used a .257 Roberts in a Ruger 77 for awhile but considered it junk {the rifle. not the cartridge} and quickly got rid of it.

I, for one, wish the original person making this observation ( not the OP but the person he mentions) would have gave some kind of estimate of the velocity of either round's bullets at impact, distances covered etc......but I realize that's asking a lot.

While we'll agree that where the bullet strikes is THE most important factor to be considered for a quick and humane kill, the whole concept of what it takes to produce MY desired "bang-flop" results, WITHOUT hitting spine or brain, has been something I've read every opinion (and Ill concede that an "opinion" is all each is and can be) and article I could find on such for a very long time.

***To answer the original question, 9 seconds seems to be a fairly accurate estimate from my own kills.....even with traditional archery equipment, not just firearms.***

Regardless of how, (it seems to me so far) circulation is all but stopped to the brain, results have seemed fairly consistent BUT those very few (also so far and is something I hope to gather more info on this season) bang-flop, brown and down results were indeed dependent upon impact velocity AND bore size.

A large number of opinions I've read try to quantify this type of results with actual velocity estimates ( they seem to think is accurate down to less than 100 fps as an error factor) and draw an imaginary line between all the available caliber sizes to divide them into only two groups, giving each group a "minimum impact velocity" for deer sized animals to drop in their tracks.

My background in physics, right or wrong, suggests there exists more of a "curve" in combinations of velocity and bullet diameter that may produce the desired results but what that curve actually is remains fairly moot. I will, however, pay attention to estimated impact velocities when a bang-flop result are achieved.

While I feel I've a good grasp on what it takes with a 35 caliber, this is my first season with a 7mm diameter round so my curiosity is peaked, to say the least. One opinion online suggests "at or above 2600 fps impact velocity" for bullet diameters under 35 caliber (or perhaps 338 and under, I forget) but TOO.......I have to wonder how much such is effected by how quickly the bullet expands.

Much of the writing done on this side subject STILL point towards that there still exists a short amount of time required to result in the actual death of the animal and that the animal is not "immediately dead".
More than a few assume it's a combination of two things: incapacitating the animal (but the label put on the process is often heatedly disputed, and entirely moot IMHO)...WHILE it takes the short time to actually demise, keeping in mind that this information strictly does NOT include brain or spine hits but focused on "broadside double lung" hits exclusively, or something close.

This too roughly agrees with this estimated short amount of time required for the animal to die.......with a difference of it doing so while stationary.

Regardless, the amount of time is (thankfully) pretty quick..........but DAAAAAAAAAAANG can they cover some turf in 8-10 seconds!
I'd prefer for them to not do that in a few of the areas I hunt so.......I continue my own studies. I'll probably never find the perfect bullet, perfect impact velocity range and bullet diameter (for MY area) producing the shortest distance to track one, with the least amount of meat loss...........but is sure is FUN looking for it!
(Before any replies to my 2 cents worth appear........yes, I'm aware some feel they have already found such. Happy for you. My own search will continue, thanks anyway.)

No........while related, but slightly off topic, I'll not re-initiate conversations (arguments) on the pros and cons of head shots.

Getting to be that time of the year! The best of seasons is my wish for one and all.

God Bless
Steve

I don't remember that he discarded the 257, but do remember he took a270 to Africa. I believe he used a mid weight 6.5, but do remember that he was not a hot rodder. I don't think that he made many shots over 100yds. I also think his shots were at calm/unaware deer. As far as why some double lung shot deer run and some drop, I believe it has more to do with the individual animal itself. The younger, smaller, 'slighter' deer seem to drop, while the older, physically, more mature, especially bucks tend to run. I have killed my deer over the last 30yrs using mainly a 708, 7x57, and a 30-06 using mid weight cup and core and Partition, bullets at normal velocities. They perform the same. Some deer ran, some dropped. Maybe if I had used a 7 or 300 mag more would have dropped. I don't know. capt david

I guess Cape Buffaloes didn't get the memo on the ten second rule

I once read a book called “the perfect shot” - I found that same “spot” on a deer where you can pinch thier nerves and knock them out via hitting the arteries above the heart that runto the brain.

They fall over like a chair with stiff legs.

BUT it does way to much meat damage to the shoulder so I don’t use that shot anymore.

I'll start carrying a STOP WATCH.

Interesting topic. I generally agree with the observations by OP using cup and core bullets at standard velocities. My percentage of bang flops goes way up with the additional velocities mags provide with standard bullets. Even at mag velocities, expansion can be too controlled by some premium bullets. I’m sure that will seem odd to some but that is my experience. This is clearest with elk. Thinking back on 3 or 4 dozen elk I’ve shot/observed, I’ve seen more bang flops with cup and core bullets out of a 300wby than I have shooting 180 Partitions (300wby) or 210 Partitions out of a 340wby. Does this mean the cup and core are better? Absolutely not. Shots averaged 300-400yds. I would not want to be shooting cup and core bullets at close range because of the increased risk of bullet failure and inadequate penetration. The difference in performance between Partitions and cup and core bullets was minimal. Elk seemed to travel 5-40yds (if they didn’t bang flop) before dropping (an insignificant trade off for the benefits of reliable penetration at close range). I’ve shot a dozen or so deer with 210 Partitions out of a 338 or 340. Those seemed to do the 30-40yd dash thing. Not sure a little more diameter would have made much of a difference using Partitions. The old 200g ballistic tips made a deadly deer combination but were far too explosive to be used on elk at even 500yds. Ultimately, bullet and cartridge choice is all about trade offs. I have to remind myself from time to time that dead is dead, and shot placement matters most.

Fall or die? Two different things generally.

Head shots fall DRT. They don't quit bodily functions for some time....

Makes sense to me, I'm sure there is still some adrenaline going on until the brain quits. I popped a doe last year straight on in the chest with a 130bt out of my 270. Heart was absolutely destroyed. Dang thing still did a back flip, got up, and ran 50 yards.Tough animals.

jorge, you got that right...I suppose if you shot them with something that had the comparative size/energy of a .30-06 on a deer sized critter, they might adhere to the rules.

105mm field gun perhaps?

3 of the last 4 I've shot with my 308 have dropped in their tracks: 2 direct heart shots and one head shot.

the other was a double lung and he went only about 20 yards.

none were on alert, 3 were grazing thru a field and the other was right behind a doe (so he may have been distracted )

I miss reading 'ol Herne from the UK from that other forum. He seemed kind of surprised that when he went from the 140's out of his 6.5 to the faster 129's that he got quicker kills. Softer bullets kill deer quicker because they destroy more tissue. Most of my deer have run because I was using heavy for caliber bullets to guarantee an exit wound. Then I lost a nice one using a TSX, so I'm in the softer cup & core bullet camp now. Whitetails are only about a foot across through the brisket, so I want something that opens fast with enough weight to penetrate.

Sometimes animals fall from pure rib/lung shots, and sometimes they don't. In my experience, including a number of cull hunts in various places around the globe, bullets that disintegrate more kill quicker with such shots, and the percentage of instant drops also rises. The quickest killer I've used is the Berger Hunting VLD, regardless of initial or impact velocity.

Have also yet to use ANY hunting cartridge that always drops deer-sized game on impact with rib/lung shots, whether ultra-velocity rounds or bigger cartridges up to the .375's. Haven't used anything larger on that size of game, however, so maybe a .416, .458 or .577 will do the job.

Will also note that Betsy Spomer, wife of my friend and fellow writer Ron, dropped a Cape buffalo instantly with a lung shot--using a .375 H&H. So apparently there isn't any totally firm rule about any of this.

I'm not going to take the time OR the space now but I have several pix from the last few yrs.

Head, Neck, Hi shoulder (spine) shots. I have YET to see ONE move ANY part of their body.

I'm NOT saying it has not happened. I have seen too many Instant Dirt Naps......it doesn't take MUCH time.

I've had heart and double lung shot deer drop dead and never flinch and I have had them run a quarter mile.

You described CNS shots.
There's a big difference between CNS shots and hear/lung shots.

These two things may have a lot to do with the consistency of his results.


Okie John

If my math is correct then a deer running at 20mph for 9 sec would cover about 96 yards. Does that sound about right?

Interesting to see that I"ve made probably as many if not more head shots than most hunters, and you can still see them breathing a bit, hair stands up, hair falls down, heart beats until it runs out of blood and so on.

On high shoulder spine shots, they can move even more.

One head shot my wife made the deer was doing back flips for a few seconds, no top of head left actually, just an ear and thats about it really.

I'm just going to bet that you don't observe after the shot immediately and with a higher power scope or binocs... I tend to run a few higher power scopes, you go bang, rack the bolt and stay on the deer for usually about a minute just in case.

Obviously we are getting some differing results, but its weird I'm seeing what I"m seeing, and you aren't seeing anything.

Well, you'd LOSE that bet. I always stay on the sticks.....watching. I have PIX of several DEAD deer and you SEE the blood where they fell.
It's easy to post quite a few PIX of deer SINCE 2012. If you want to see them, I'll do it.


I can't prove that they didn't run or even take a step..... but they have NOT.

All my scopes are 4-12 X 40 except 1 --- 3-9,

We DO have differing experiences. These are mine.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

? Hit in the heart and both lungs and ran 440 yards? What caliber, weight and speed of bullet? What bullet? I did have some hogs shot high in the chest with a .30-06 155 grain Scenar and run off a long ways on a high hit below the spine. Don't believe I would call those shots necessarily heart/lug shots. Seem to do better with other bullets like Speer Hot-cor. Win Power point, SST and my daughter uses Nosler Partition to good effect. If deer are shot in heart and or lungs with those bullets they will be down pdq.

Well, "The current men's world record for the 100 yard dash is 9.58 seconds, set by Jamaica's Usain Bolt in 2009."; so I figure maybe a deer could do the same! Besides nobody was shooting at Usain Bolt ! Maybe the starter's pistol startled him!

In my experience, deer usually live long enough to effortlessly dash approximately 2/3 of the way down whatever canyon I am hunting in. That normally takes just a few seconds. Dragging them out the exact same distance takes a laborious 4-6 hours.

I have shot abut one out of three deer as head shots across a lifetime of hunting. Over the last fifteen years I started shooting for just the brain stem. I did this because often enough a brain shot lets them flop and lash around which can get you messy when you shoot them right under your stand. Brain stem shots seem to stop all that pretty well. I have observed in maybe1/3 to 1/2 of the brain stem shots that after a couple minutes legs will sort of male a slow walking type movement. Usually only one or two legs, and only one or two "steps". The way it's been timed, I suspect it's just the muscles running out of oxygen. I have never sen a brain stem shot deer lash around.

I think 9 seconds is about it with a fatal heart/lung shot from a rifle. A little more for arrow shot deer. For shots that drop blood pressure to zero instantly that in my experience has allowed a run of up to 200 yards. The hardest to get my head around was one that made it a little over a mile after I put an arrow (4 blade broadhead, 3 inches of cut and all 4 blades did open on the way in) through both lungs and bled so well I could follow the blood as fast as I could walk. Sometimes you don't get the expected result or a means to explain what you did get.

What a colossal waste of hunting opportunities.

rost,

most likely the autonomic nervous system at work with what you're seeing. I don't doubt you a bit. The brain may be dead, but there are a lot of parts in the body that don't need signals from the bridge to keep operating.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=autonomic+nervous+system&t=ffsb&ia=web

Hence, the term "brain dead".

Differing results in killing things for sure.

Geno

A number of years ago there were a couple of French guys who did some ammunition testing. They shot hundreds of goats in controlled conditions with [handguns] . I believe they recorded and commented on every shot. Heart shot goats either lived and continued functioning for several seconds or they collapsed instantly. Post-mortems were conducted on EVERY animal. The animals that collapsed instantly showed severe brain hemorrhaging, the ones who lived 9 seconds (I just inserted that number validate this post) had no such hemorrhaging. The researchers concluded that when they hit the heart, the condition of the heart (which chamber was full of blood) determined the quickness of death. When the ventricle was full, it sent a shock wave to the brain, when emtpy, it didn't.

I had to read through this whole research paper as we were selecting duty ammo for our department. Bottom line, if you take heart shots, you have no control over whether it is the proverbial bang-flop or a death run.

9 seconds to death, sounds right to me.

Shot one yesterday eve. 4 blade broad head, quartering away, head down. In 4-6 inches behind shoulder. Cut 3-4 ribs, passed just above heart. Down instantly kicking and flopping quiet about 10 second later.

The Strassburg Goat “test” was debunked a long time ago. It’s a fabrication from Marshall and Sanow to back up their nonsense about “one shot stops”.

See Martin Fackler, Gary Roberts, etc.

Yes, thank you.

Unfortunately a lot of bad information from that goat stuff still gets passed around the internet like it's bible truth. It contributes to a lot of misunderstanding about terminal performance of bullets, like the example above.