Question regarding Barnes bullets. I hunt a lot with moderate cartridges like the 7x57 and .308. I’d like to switch to lead free ammo. It seems like the conventional wisdom would be to use a lighter copper bullet at higher velocity, e.g. change from 7mm Nosler Partition 140 gr at about 2800 FPS to 120 gr TTSX at about 3000 FPS. What about using the 139 or 145 gr LRX though? Would the better ballistic coefficient and “softer” construction make up for the lower velocity? Maybe this is splitting hairs.

I think you answered your question with that last sentence. Unless you are chasing very big animals. Why the desire to go lead-free?

What range are you looking at using them?

At moderate ranges like I usually hunt deer around home, say 0-300 yds, I'll use the lighter bullet at a faster velocity. I use 100 gr. TTSX's in my 6.5x47L for deer. In my 7mm rem mag I use the 145 gr. LRX for elk, I like the better B.C. for possible longer shots.

For normal ranges in a 7x57 I'd pick the 120TTSX over the 145 LRX.

I switched to barnes because I get more reliable performance out of them than lead core bullets. I only use the barnes with plastic tips though, I don't trust the hollow point ones to open consistently. I don't care that they're lead free, just that they work better.

I am doing the same with the 6.5x55 and 129 ABLR for a softer bullet and in theory quicker kills. But like the 7x57 just about anything you care to load will work well. Even the cheapest bullet you can find is still likely to be a stellar performer in the old Mauser. For light game I have found the 120 monos perform exceptionally in the 7RM, 280, and 7-08 so should likewise in the 7x57.

Out to about 350-400 meters, it's a wash. Beyond that the LRX will expand more reliably and drift less in the wind.

Yep. In the places I hunt a 300 yard shot is unlikely but you never know. I just bought a .280 Ackley Improved...think I will use the 145 LRX in that and the 120 TTSX in my 7x57.

There may be several reasons why one might go that route

1. Required by law or landowner
2. Bullet performance is in deed superb and reliable
3. Ecologically the lead free bullets do less damage to other species of wildlife.....most notably raptors but such animals that might o feed on the carcass remains might also be damaged.....and even in some case humans as well.

For me it's all three....the last seven big game animals I've taken were all with the TTSX in .30 caliber and .264 caliber. Bullet performance was as good as any I've used in the past and I have no qualms about feeding the meat to grandkids....The benefit to raptors is merely a plus but no matter how one cuts the cake the lead free bullets are clearly winners IMO.

I want to go lead free so I don’t risk poisoning raptors and other wildlife. I don’t want to start a fight about lead free being a political ploy. I do think there is good evidence that raptors can be poisoned by lead.

May I ask.......why the desire to continue shooting bullets containing lead?

Bullets containing lead? Hell, I prefer to shoot bullets that are ALL lead. I know the actual science, rather than the fear-mongering, so I have zero concerns over ingesting lead with my meat. Hell, as a teen, I ate the equivalent of a dove-load every bird season in shot. Your body doesn't absorb pieces of lead. It absorbs very tiny amounts dissolved by the acid in the stomach. And the body can get rid of that lead it has absorbed. Your body isn't stupid. It wants to get rid of toxins.

My advice: don't dissolve lead in acid and drink it. Don't consume lead suspensions.

Millions of people for hundreds of years have shot game with lead pellets or bullets. The symptoms of lead poisoning are pretty evident. For decades, water pipes were made from lead.

But some people can't grasp reality.

They work.

Lead free works better.

Make yourself happy.
I'll use both. Just wish, I didn't have someone standing over me telling me what I had to use.

Yup. After using A-Frames, Northforks, Nosler Partitions and Accubonds on two elk, countless mule deer and whitetails, pronghorns, Kudu, Gemsbok, Zebra and niscellaneous game, I agrree they sure do work and work fine. However after now using TTSX to kill three elk and four mule deer this year, I, again, agree.....the lead free bullets work equally fine if not better. Further, they are actually less costly than some of the (so-called) premium bullets mentioned......and yes, they are quite a bit higher cost than core-loks, power points. interlocks, game kings, hot cores and other traditional cup and core bullets but when one shells out the cash for a non resident elk hunt, it makes sense (at least to me) to use the ammunition that provides the best terminal performance.

This becomes especially true when under African rules, if you draw blood, it's your trophy fee.....if you lose the animal you will be required an additional trophy fee for another animal.....this same rule applies to the ranch where I hunt elk in New Mexico. It's the kind of thing that causes one to use the best ammo he can get (make) and to restrict his shooting to shots well within his shooting capability. For me, monometals fill the bill quite well.

All the bullets mentioned work well. But with the monos I like that if I misjudge a shot and hit more bone than anticipated the monos not only will work but possibly work even better. You could say the same thing about hard cast pure lead bullets at moderate velocities. I agree with MD and others that cup and core or partially fragmenting bonded or partition bullets will usually kill faster than a mono but the difference would be hard to document in most situations.

Well said. I don't like the .gov legislating these types of things and I think the lead poisoning of birds is overblown, but I like mono bullets because I like 2 holes in my game. Sure they may run 10% farther on average or some imperceptible difference, but 2 holes and good blood trails is never the wrong answer in my mind.

TTSX bullets are accurate, my go to bullet.

To the OP, I agree totally with Jordan's post. My wife took a bull elk at 400 yds with a 120 gr TTSX having a 3050 fps MV. The bullet hit just slightly back but still double lunged him, and it did work. The elk walked uphill about 40 yds and didn't get up. But he wasn't dead when she got up to him and he needed a finishing shot. The 139 LRX would actually have a slightly greater retained velocity at 400 yds. And most likely would have been more "lethal".

I prefer to use one bullet for all shooting of game. I don’t pick a bullet for close shots, then change for longer (500+) shots. My preference......go with the heavier bullet. I have concerns (though unproven by myself) about the LRX over expanding and possibly shedding too much weight on close-up shots. So, for the time being.....I’m staying with the TTSX. There is not enough of BC loss with the TTSX vs the LRX, with similar bullet weights, to warrant major concern. I’m trying to gather data on LRX performance on close range, high velocity impacts, for my own decision as to which to choose! memtb

The LRX will probably work better, for you politically correct types.

memtb,

With your concerns about the LRX "possibly shedding too much weight," you might check out this thread:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13278496/1

Do you like how the Nosler PT works on similar shots? Functionally, a Barnes that sheds petals still has the solid rear, much like a PT that sheds its front half. I haven’t killed enough with the LRX yet to say definitively about the petal shedding behaviour, but I’ve seen the TSX and TTSX shed petals a bunch, and they kill very effectively under such conditions.

Sid, Buy and shoot a bunch of LRX’s in heavier weight, push them to around 3000+ fps, and shoot some game, up close and personal! Get back to me with the results....I respect your opinion. Not exactly sure why....but I do! memtb

While I agree that the science behind lead bans is overwrought, I recognize that it won't go away. Personally I have started to use some TSX's in light high velocity cartridges for hunting but only because they work swell not because I buy into their "need". In truth, how many gut piles does the average guy (not a Campfire Commando) leave behind in the woods for scavengers to pick apart and ingest tiny pieces of lead from? How many shots does the average guy fling around the deer woods? I can maybe see it if I regularly fired hundreds of shots into prairie dog towns, but I don't.

For .30-30, .303 Savage, .30/40 Krag and their ilk I use monometals too- cast lead bullets, which cost me nothing to make, are accurate as jacketed bullets, can be driven at factory velocities, and kill like factory ammo. In the '06's which I tote when there's a remote chance of a long-ish shot I use the cup-and-cores that have served me well for 50 years now (although I do cast sidelong glances at 130 TSX's from time to time).

I shoot a lot in the course of a year. Mayhaps not as much as some denizens of the 'Fire, but thousands of rounds nonetheless- 99.99% of them at shooting ranges against formidable paper targets. If I had to switch to non-toxic projectiles I would have to take up girl watching instead as I couldn't afford to shoot anymore.

Jordan, We used the Nosler Partions in my wife’s .270 Win., and were very pleased. But, I started using the Barnes X Bullets around ‘93 in my rifle (375 AI)...was so impressed, I’ve only used Barnes since ( recently going to the 250TTSX), changing bullets “only” as Barnes upgraded. The same with my wife’s rifle (.338 WM, have always used 225’s - presently running TTSX’s) since ‘94. We are both very pleased with the performance of the Barnes bullets. We use them for “all” of our big game (deer/antelope thru elk/moose) hunting! memtb

Thanks Mule Deer! I’m all over it! I read this, and this ( among some other info), and, has me a little concerned. I prefer it to “stay together”, even on high velocity, close range hits....even if I have to sacrifice some BC. I guess life is a compromise! memtb

I understand that, but several people have blown the front ends of standard X's, from the original to the TSX and TTSX's, and animals ended up quickly dead anyway. As I noted in one of my posts on that thread, the farthest I've ever had a big game animal travel after being hit by any of them that had their petals blown off is 38 yards. Have seen a number of animals travel farther with solid chest hits from X-Bullets that either exited or retained all their petals.

But a lot of people are convinced that 100% weight retention is The Answer.

In my experience X bullets that have blown the petals off have always killed faster.

Those petals are doing damage to structures off the main bullet path.

That’s why I have been a little hesitant to switch from AccuBonds or Partitions...I’ve always liked the idea of a shower of fragments into the lungs and heart. Sounds like I can get the same effect with a Barnes bullet.

I have had 100% success with Barnes TTSX and TSX bullets in 7mm and .30 cal, as have several hunting buddies all of whom switched to Barnes. I hesitate to raise the ire of diehard loonies over bullet selection and effectiveness but there is nothing more than 100% dead. Why mess with success? If you want to kill chit, use a Barnes TTSX. If you want to jaw around on the’Fire, that’s a whole nother matter. Happy Trails

1). What has been the lead level results in raptors in say... the Kaibab since the almost universal use of lead free bullets?


2). You do know that ingesting lead bullets is NOT how you get lead poisoning, correct...? I mean like medically that’s not how it works.





Same as #1 above?

In my experience a LRX is just a TTSX with better aerodynamics. Maybe they open a bit faster, I don’t know, but I’ve put six of the 145 gr lrx’s through both shoulders of mature bull elk from 100 to 375 yds and all of them completely penetrated. That tells me they hold together plenty well. I don’t see a reason to go heavier, any extra energy will just go into the dirt on the other side of the critter.

As Formidilosus said, that’s not how lead poisoning works.

However, most raptor who die from lead die from an accumulation of lead pieces in their gut, where it neither passes or dissolves, but forms a blockage.

Google it.

You’ll see lots of research with birds and raptors with visible chunks of lead in their gut, and a note that says “died from lead poisoning.”

But they did not. Lead poisoning is an affliction in the blood. Not an accumulation of insoluble lead elsewhere in the body.

The end result seems no different to me than it would be from scraps of a monometal bullet, like the TTSX or the TSX and their like.

So, unless you’re going to hunt with a bullet that is not toxic and is digestible by raptors (there are none) then your reason for changing is invalid, and you should just stick with what currently works for you.

WAM,

I've had 100% success with a wide variety of bullets over the past several decades, and so have my hunting partners, including my wife, who's killed a wider variety of big game, with a wider variety of bullets, than most people who post on the Campfire.

We like the various Barnes X's a lot--and have, again, probably shot more animals with them than most who claim they're the ONLY bullet. Partly because that'd what I do--and Eileen is always a willing test-helper. But to claim X's (or any other monolithic) are magic, much less the ONLY solution, to me reveals a limited perspective. Got into just such a discussion with another guy who claimed TSX's were the only solution, and it turned out he'd seen about 30 animals taken with them.

Have also seen enough X's (and other monolithics) used on big game to be pretty sure they kill quicker when losing some petals--which normally happens when they hit relatively heavy bone, resulting in both the petals and bone fragments damaging more tissue. When used on behind-the-shoulder shots they definitely kill 100% of the time, but on average animals travel farther before falling than with bullets that lose more weight, because there isn't as much tissue damage. Again, this isn't a claim from, say, seeing 30 animals taken, but quite a few more.

Call me crazy, but one of my bottom lines with any big game bullet is how quickly they kill--and not just in "examples of one," but a bunch of animals, with various bullet placements on a wide range of animals.

As a more general note, I have done a LOT of research into the lead-poisoning issue in the past decade. Major studies have varied in the effect on humans, but perhaps the biggest study (done in Europe, comparing hunters with the general population) found hunters have lower lead-levels in their blood that non-hunters in the same general population. This was partly attributed to, perhaps, more hunters living in rural areas, which had lower levels of the general lead pollution (from fuels, paint etc,) that tends to raise blood-lead levels most.

An example of one that fits right into this is my wife Eileen, who had to have her blood tested annually for a number of years in the 1990's and early 2000's. She also had a lower lead-level in her blood than average in Americans, despite the fact that we mostly used lead-core bullets back then. But we also live in an area with generally lower lead pollution than most of the country.

In general, we have not found monolithic bullets to be any more reliable for killing big game than various lead-core bullets. But we use them a lot, primarily because we like the way they ruin less meat on smaller big game, or tend to penetrate deeper with lighter-weight bullets, which is important to Eileen due to her tendency to get recoil headaches in the past decade or so.

Speaking of blown petals and speaking of raptors, brings to mind the CEB Raptor. It's a mono bullet designed to shed 6 petals on impact. The few I've used worked as advertised. I have some CEB Raptor 235's loaded over RL-15 in my .375 H&H that I want to try on WT's and hogs. I know they group, just gotta get the scope adjusted for 1 1/2" hi at a hundred.

I've killed stuff with the 135 CEB Raptor in a .308. It grouped them pretty well, too. Note low S.D./E.S. with Varget.

I know, I know, three shot groups, but good enough for hunting, IMO. Gives me a good idea where the 4th bullet is likely to land...

And, measuring groups to thousands is overkill. So, just assume both are sub half inch, at least once. MOA a safe bet most of the time.

They are expensive, but how many do we actually shoot at game? Practice with something cheaper, save these for critters. Works for me.

DF

Formidilosus,

Perhaps you could explain to me how lead poisoning happens, both in humans and raptors? I’m just a simple country doctor, M.D., and have taken care of a number of patients who have ingested lead, and others who have had lead poisoning, and still others with lead bullets left in their bodies. Some in joints, most elsewhere. Maybe my understanding of the biochemistry is all wrong, but please recall that I did not start this discussion so I could have an argument about lead poisoning in humans or raptors. I simply wanted to discuss the ballistics of different kinds of Barnes bullets. The good thing is that there is a lot of collective experience with these bullets available here. Please note that I am not worried about ingestion of lead by me or others who ingest game that I kill. Rather I am thinking that it would be good to not leave lead in carcasses out in the field.

I don’t require 100% weight retention....but 99% is OK! memtb

Kinda like a Berger.

Well, maybe.

To me, the Cutting Edge Raptor is the mono answer to the Partition.

You don't want to shoot Bergers much beyond their design window. For example, with the 26 Nosler, I noticed Berger's load data way short of max. I called them, talked to a tech. He let me know they didn't want their VLD Hunting to be shot over 3,100 fps, suggested I use the target version with tougher jacket.

I abandoned Berger bullets for that round, went with monos; been there ever since. At those velocities, monos tear up meat pretty bad without blowing up. And for those concerned about such, they do exit.

DF

Riverdog,

As an "old country doctor" you must surely know of the difference between soluble lead (i.e. the type used in paint and gasoline, and pretty much everywhere on old farm houses) and insoluble lead (i.e the type used in munitions, fishing lures, etc.).

See page 2 of this article for an explaination of why lead poisioning is still common, but why it is not from the type of lead used in bullets:


"All of the major soluble lead compounds have industrial uses. Lead
acetate is used as a water repellent, for mildew protection, and as a
mordant for cotton dyes. Lead acetate trihydrate is used in varnishes,
chrome pigments, and as an analytical reagent, and lead chloride is
used in asbestos clutch or brake linings, as a catalyst, and as a flame
retardant. Lead nitrate is used in the manufacture of matches and
explosives, as a heat stabilizer in nylon, and as a coating on paper for
photothermography. Lead subacetate is used in sugar analysis and for
clarifying solutions of organic substances (HSDB 2009). "

I’ve been carrying a “little” piece of lead around in my left lung since 1962..... no lead poisoning yet! memtb

And I have been carrying approximately twenty #7 1/2 lead shot pellets in my lower legs from a trapshooting accdent since 2003.....no problems because of it.

It is my understanding that for lead to be toxic to humans it must be small enough to enter the blood stream....or it must be colloidal. This is why birds are the most injured by lead left in carcasses....they have gizzards and these gizzards can actually "grind" the lead particles against other stones in the gizzard into colloidal particles....and this allows for lead to enter the bloodstream.

The body walls off a foreign body like that.

DF

Around here, raptors (black vultures) get lead poisoning at ~ 3,000fps from stockmen.

A search by posts from UtahLefty (I don't think he posts here anymore) on the effect and mechanism of lead + raptors might worth your time. He was a falconer and a veterinarian.

Elemental lead isn’t a problem unless you get shot with it. The dangerous stuff is the compounds of lead (lead salts) like the compounds that used to be used in paint as a drying agent, which is why old houses with “lead paint” are a danger to kids that eat the flakes.

For the most part mammals aren’t going to be harmed by ingesting a little lead shot. Birds are different for the reason above, their gizzards are designed to grind stuff into tiny particles which then are much more reactive with stomach acid to form the lead salts that enter the bloodstream and poison them.

I still think the hysteria over lead bullets and shot is way overblown, but it is true that birds are more susceptible than mammals because of the way their digestive system works.

Yeah

That’s ACUTE lead poisoning, for sure.

Life changing event from a run in with a high speed lead projectile.

DF

Elemental lead combines with hydrochloric acid in your gut and then becomes absorbable. Raptors and other birds are affected by bullet fragments more so than other animals because they have gizzards that grind up the particles thus making more lead absorbed into the blood stream.
Blood tests are not really that useful for determining how much lead is in your body because lead moves from the blood stream into bones, teeth, brain and other organs where it hides out for along time.

I would just go with the 139gr LRX for both and call it good! It'll do the trick in both rifles at the range you listed. I used the 145LRX in my 7 RUM and killed 5 animals with it (2 buck WT, 2 doe and 1 pronghorn), only one made it further than another step and she was shot through the lungs and ran 30 yards. Distances were 125 to 411, no bullets recovered.

I'll buy that.

Google search.

Intoxication from an Accidentally Ingested Lead Shot Retained in the Gastrointestinal Tract https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1278491/

Management of Lead Poisoning From Ingested Fishing Sinkers https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/189533

Doctors kill over 200,000 Americans with treatment every year. Not malpractice. Regimented proper treatment. No thanks....

Duck hunter, thanks! This discussion has gone far astray....and for the record I did not say I was an old country doctor, just a simple country doctor. I Don’t think I said anything about humans being poisoned,and I am not worried about me ingesting lead from animals I eat....we generally don’t eat the lungs etc. and cut away meat with fragment wounds. That said, I would always prefer to not have lead in my diet. BWalker, yes your explanation is what I was alluding to. The worst case of lead poisoning I’ve seen was in a boy with Down syndrome who had swallowed a lead sinker, which did not leave the stomach and thus was constantly exposed to acid. Crow Hunter, the only hysteria regarding lead bullets I’ve seen comes from people attacking those of us considering using lead free ammunition. Maybe I am unaware of other hysteria out there.

California is banning the use of lead in bullets, that's hysteria if you ask me and that's what I was referring to in my post. Other states are sure to follow suit. California comes up with all kinds of kooky laws that have a habit of spreading to other states and I don't want to see that happen here. I don't care what California does internally, I just don't want their ideas to spread like cancer to places I do care about.

Lead shot has been banned for waterfowl for decades and because of the effect lead had on birds as discussed above it's probably necessary. In mammals small amounts of lead shot or bullet fragments usually pass harmlessly through the digestive system but as noted they can cause problems if they get stuck and exposed to stomach acid. I wouldn't want to make a habit of consuming handfuls of #6 shot but a pellet every now and then isn't going to hurt you.

I think the small number of bullets fired at big game makes the risks from lead core bullets in the landscape miniscule at best. Likewise I think worrying about lead in big game meat from one or two bullets after the meat is trimmed and processed is kind of crazy. I've never bitten into a piece of lead in venison, if someone has lead in their venison they're doing a pretty poor job of preparing it. I think maybe a case could be made that lead from high volume shooters like prairie dog hunters could be too much, but not big game hunters that might at most shoot a couple of rounds a year at game. There's a lot of dirt out there with a tiny amount of lead going into it.

I'm not arguing that lead in anything is good for you. I do think the current zero tolerance stance is hysteria because a tiny amount of lead with a small risk of being ingested isn't going to hurt anything and isn't worthy of the negatives from trying to remove lead from all ammo and fishing tackle. It's a miniscule risk that's being massively blown out of proportion.

I use Barnes not because they're lead free but because I like their performance. The fact that they're lead free is a bonus I guess you could say.

Not sure just how much trouble is caused to raptors (here, black and turkey vultures, bald eagles, and redtails) but with all the gutpiles to be found during the deer season, one would think that there'd be dead vultures found here and there, but the only ones I've seen were killed by cars while eating roadkill. At any rate, I use what shoots and kills well for me, be it copper or lead.

On a related note, my club was recently anonymously reported to the state Green Police over alleged contamination of a creek by lead from our shooting berms. The state and county experts came out and did a survey and found nothing. Just harassment, apparently.