Which bullet diameter carries the best terminal ballistics for North American Venison and Pork?
.30
.284
.277
.264
Other....
Not asking so much about chamberings, just bullet diameters.
In my experience the .284 if pushed fast enough kills stuff like a lightening bolt. It’s funny, I don’t even own a .284 in any chambering currently. What do you guys think?

I have always been a .284 fan and had lots of good results, but I am now leaning more toward the .264. It just flat kills stuff beyond what the ballistics indicate that it should. This is splitting straws, though, as all of those kill great.

I don't mean to offend, but I don't think that is a very good question to be asking.

As we all know, but tend to ignore as there is little "rifle looney fun" to be had, the most important thing is shot placement. And unless you are shooting a LONG way, super tight groups matter less than how well you can shoot from field positions. hell, hardly any rifle looney fun in that.

Second most Important thing, IMO, is bullet construction. A perfectly placed shot from a bad angle that has to go through a bunch of meat, innards, or bones to get to the vitals isn't much good if the bullet isn't up to the task.

Third is maybe energy, which doesn't depend on bullet diameter. However, some are believers in other formulas that do depend on bullet diameter. Virtually all who like one or the other of those formulas opt for bigger, and sometimes heavier, bullets.

Point is, bullet diameter is way down the list.

Now, ignoring all that, back to our regularly scheduled lonneyism!

.22 cal and 45 cal. Everything in-between is pointless.

Any of those are great. Shot placement is the key.

Caliber is irrelevant to the discussion. HE is more fun than lead, 7 days/week. Belt feed is a close second place.

What is legal in your AO might be a different story.

"best bullet diameter"

Yes.

.29

About 400 grains of .411 going around 2150 fps.

It is more of a bullet construction and sectional density issue than of caliber. To give a rather extreme example: If I load a 180 grain JHP bullet in my 460 S&W at maximum potential velocities (likely exceeding 2300 fps), which was designed for 45 ACP velocities....... it will fail miserably on any big game (hog, Whitetail, etc.). It may even come apart in flight, due to it’s thin jacket, as it was designed for velocities in the 900 to 1000 fps area....similar to a varmint bullet designed for a .222, fired at max. velocity from a 22-250.

Proper bullet construction “trumps” bullet diameter....bullet must be designed to perform under the parameters, designated for the desired use! memtb

No it's not. My neighbor's brother-in-law's doctor shot a buck with the .29-06 AI, and the deer got away.

No exit wound, that's what caused it.

-Snork-

Ok, just to make it easy let’s say all of the above bullet diameters loaded with the same type of hunting bullet Placed in a 30-06 case? All of the calibers driven close to max velocities, with the same on game shot placement.
Which bullet diameter wins and why?

Well..... that “muddied” the waters a bit! memtb

I'm now a .30 caliber fan.....that said.....it's simply a matter of personal preference as I doubt there is evidence to show any of the ones mentioned as "better"

338-06, 35 Whelen? Bigger bullets rarely make smaller holes given similar bullet construction. All would be equally dead.

👍 I started out with a .30 caliber.....but “stepped-up” my game, around ‘82! Never regretted, making “bigger holes” in game!
memtb

I'm not fond of recoil, I do not do my best shooting with light hunting rifles and say the 30.06 with heavy for caliber bullets. For the 30.06 to be comfortable for me it needs to weight 9lbs or so, but at age 76 that's not something I want to carry. A 190gr 30cal. LR Nosler Accubond has a BC of .597 and can be pushed out of a 24" 30.06 at near 2800fps. A 6.5x06 with a 142gr Nosler LR Accubond has a BC of .625 and can be pushed at 2900fps or so with less recoil. IF a shooter is capable, both rounds will easily kill bull elk at 500 yarrds. Why put up with more recoil than necessay ?

smokepole,

Just because your neighbor's brother-in-law's doctor lost a buck shot with the .29-06 AI doesn't prove anything.

Some cartridges in a certain caliber are far more effective than others, which is obviously true of the giant-killing 6.5 Creedmoor. Similarly, if your neighbor's brother-in-law's doctor had used the magical B-29 round, instead of some wannabe based on the tired old .30-06 case, the buck would have not only died right there, but the bullet would have flipped it on its back and performed the field dressing.

If I had to pick ONE based on performance, efficiency (amount of powder burned etc), foot pounds per penny, I'd roll a 22LR everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

30 for me

7.4 MM

(that's 29 caliber, but of course anyone who 'knows anything" knows only those modern shells with metric names are any good.)

.243 / 6mm

Perfect! The Best

.30 for me also

I tend to prefer bullets from .224 through .458, except when, occasionally, using rimfires.

The 6.5mm/.264 bullet is the best diameter for NA hunting.

Other bullet diameters will work but if you seek perfection 6.5mm/.264 is the answer you seek.

It's simply science.

Wouldn't a REALLY GOOD bullet have packaged it also.

Yea, those. Some would add quarter bore to the list.

I’m fine with that, but does the 25-06 offer the best terminal ballistics in the 06 case?

Several years ago I shot a small buck @ about 30 yards quartering away. At the shoot the deer did a 180 back flip and landed on its back, DRT. At the time I thought it odd, but now I know.... .30 out of a .308 case.

Best bullet diameter I've got other than a round for the GAU-8 is the one on the right. .56 caliber, 900 grains. It's the plinking bullet for the big gun in next picture. The real bullet is 1,300 grains and I guarantee four things about it. You won't whine about the fact the gun weighs 47#, as I recall. You will likely need a rest unless you're Paul Bunyan. It will put critters down on the spot. The working charge is 250 grains of Lord Black.

The little puny thing behind the penny is a 530 grain .45-70 bullet. It only works on buffalo.

I think that qualifies as a piece of artillery!

I'm thinking a 45 cal based on a straight 30-06 case would be the best guaranteed killer, given the parameters....using a bullet similar to the 530gr sample per Dan above.

The last one that put meat in the freezer. LOL. I am going through the "new rifle" "new cartridge" issue right now. Seems there really is not that much difference. A matter of inches of drop, and wind drift. Bottom line the nut behind the trigger.

So are breasts without nipples.

not in dds yard it is just a pop gun

.277

Hmmm...

My 30-06 will do most everything my 30-30 will do, but not the reverse. My .223 is perfectly capable of doing what my 30-06 does inside 100 yards, The range at which something in the high 90% of all deer are killed

The last 6 years I have been killing a lot of deer. A lot of those deer were killed with arrows. A couple of those deer were down and dead where they stood, but most ran something like about 50 yards. Some did run further. That's more or less the results my 30-06 produces. Does that make my bow equal to my 30-06? I guess though that none of my rifles of bows will ever be as efficient as my son's .270 because 100% of the deer he has killed with it dropped where they stood.

I'm more concerned with after impact diameter than before impact diameter.

All things being equal or optimum from the 0-6 cartridge powder & pressure capacity I would give all of them a gold star and a blue ribbon. They all will get the job done w room to spare.

I always found that the best bullet diameter was the one that fit your bore.

I guess I should’ve known I would get a bunch of vague smart ass answers from some of you...lol. I guess, I wanted to hear from the die hard .270 Win fans, or the die hard 7mm crowd, or .30 caliber guys, 6.5mm etc.. and why their caliber of choice rains supreme on the game I had selected. With all things being equal, which caliber would be the best and why, no real answers from anyone. I’m well aware that shot placement is key and that all of the calibers I mentioned will get the job done, but for you which is best and why?

For example, Jimbo picks the 7mm bullet because it would have less recoil than its .30 caliber counterpart. The bullets can usually be driven the faster....(velocity kills). The bullets will have a higher bc than most other bullets and a higher sectional density. Jimbo has taken multiple heads of game with the 7mm and in his mind nothing kills better.

What say you?....

Buy the rifle you shoot the best with.

Understand your/it's limitations.

ChanceD

The answers you got tell you plainly and simply that there is no "best" caliber, and that looking for one is a waste of time, There are a whole lot of different aspects that make bigger difference than caliber.

At one phase of my life 30 caliber was about all I was concerned with in my hunting needs. But after being given a Mauser 98 in 8mm and getting into reloading; I eventually found my self reading the fantastic stories and legends of the mild mannered (read low recoil) but effective 7x57 Mauser. It has been taking big game on nearly every continent since 1892; and is still doing it's thing today. It has become my favorite round for any deer hunt, and the 7mm bullet in 175 grain bullet has a sectional density of .310 providing good penetration at velocities as low as 1800 fps. In more modern cartridges it is basically duplicated by the 7mm-08 (and exceeded by the 7mm Mag with the associated higher recoil). It therefore is my favorite round. Will I get rid of my 308 Win., 30-30, 35 Rem, or even the 8MM Mauser. Probably not; they each have a place and role in my hunting. I love the fast and easy handling 30-30 and 35 Rem lever guns for hunting thick cover for deer.

So I am sure that others have their favorite caliber (ie; bullet diameter) with equally biased reasoning to support them. That's why we have so many to choose from. Even Jack O'Conner and his nemesis Elmer Keith both accepted that reality. To each his own, to each his "best diameter bullet"! It is what you accomplish with it that counts. As many have said, "A good bullet can not make up for a bad shot."

Seems to me ROT is more important than 6.5 (.264 )
Thé 264 WM had everything EXCEPT the right twist.
No ?

Jerry

REDUX

3 Days now and no takers ? ?

Being how most of the Venison and Pork in North America is taken at 100 yards or less, any of the options will work just fine. But a bigger hole is well, a bigger hole.

In the spirit of the original post and to answer with respect to the original intent of the thread, .284 first, .264 second, .308 third and .277 fourth, That is with the constraints provided by the O.P. and disregarding "Other....".

Not sure of your question.

The discussion was bullet diameter and my .264Win Mag has an 8 twist.

Would ya rather be shot with a bb at 3000fps or a bowling ball at 3000 FPS? Ed k

Of those listed, it's the one that is ever so slightly larger than the bore diameter and very close to the groove diameter of the barrel it's being fired in.

I’d say it’s the one someone has the most confidence in! For me that’d be my 6.5x55, even though I have all the ones mentioned and then some!

Let me state it another way.

Why was the 6.5/264 an "also ran" OR not as successful BEFORE faster twists?
When did 264s first get 8 rot ?

OR to make a statement and not a ?

The faster twist is what brought the 6.5/264 to where it is today.....IMO


Jerry

Well it seems the Swedes had it right when the M96 Swedish Mauser came out but the US was hung on .30 caliber rifles. When the 6.5 made the scene US gun makers decided to go with 1-9” for whatever reason. I still remember as a kid seeing the ads for the 6.5 Rem magnum and all the hype. “Shoots like a laser”, but that was with a 120/125 grain bullet where the Swedes had it right on with 142 grain ammo, but long range shooting wasn’t at like it is today. It took awhile for US gunmakers to get it right.

THAT was my point.

Thnx

Jerry

Wasn't the ROT of the 1903 Manlicher a 1 in 7 3/8"- or am I mistaken? (Faulty memory banks, etc.)

Easy choice for me. The .30 caliber, with the right bullet, bigger is always better.

I can easily kill anything with a 222... However not sure I will FIND the animal afterwards though.

many of us enjoy many different cartridges to use for target and hunting,if your a beginner and do not handload , a very good cartridge is just the 30-06 it will do it all in the lower 48 . factory ammo with many different grain weight bullets is avaliable and many stores always carry 30-06 ammo ,even out west ma-pa groceries stores may have 30-06 ammo.if your a new handloader the 30-06 is a easy cartridge to load for and can be very accurate too, a bolt action rifle is a good choice for a handloader too. there are many options out there for you to decide on good luck,Pete53

.25" to .35" is a sweet spot for bullet dia. Lots of good things happen in that zone.

Neither! But if I was doing the shooting I would rather shoot the bb ! Because I bet the recoil from a Bowling Ball rifle would tend to be excessive! LOL

CJ

.284!

.366

Actually, It'll do it all all over the planet.....just use the right bullet. While some will say it is not legal in some instances.....I've never known of anyone that was arrested for using an illegal caliber in big game hunting.

I would second this comment. Cheers NC

All you listed work. But, if one goes by what Jack and Elmer said it is a .27 and a .33 caliber. Since I have been in Alaska the last 54 years I never had a use for any thing smaller then my 30-06 or larger then my .338.

I have them all like a bunch of you do, put them all in a hat, whichever one you pull out will work just fine!!!

Interesting local story

https://app.louisianasportsman.com/...iew&action=full_report&id=155173


And oh yeah ... .375

On good authority - .29

Unless you kill 100 animals of equal size and temperament with each and average out the results, they are all the same.
There is more fiction in cartridge differences than similarities.

I'll use whatever is handy when there is game to shoot...that being said, I'm a fan of a .323" diameter bullet in a 57mm case.

I find a 243 adequate for most of what I hunt, when the 204 seems light. For elk, one of my 30-06's suffice quite well, thank you.

The biggest bull elk I ever killed (a big 6X7) was with a .243 Win. The smallest buck I've ever killed was with a .338, a little paddle head. Each were at ~150 yards.
So the perfect caliber must be somewhere between those two?

I like them all but it is easy to see why the 6.5s are getting the popularity they deserve. They have a good balance of high BCs and lower recoil. They are suitable for almost all non dangerous game. My favorite is the 7mm but with 175s and above in a RM recoil starts to be a factor. But anything between .17 and 50 caliber is good. I could do most of my hunting with a .23 and a .29 caliber rifle.

i have killed deer with a 22 mag,17 Remington, a flatten sharpen`d spoon shape into a broadhead ,even a knife and many different cartridges/calibers so my answer is yes they all work ,its the person shooting his weapon,but have not tried a .29 cartridge yet .

Given the most popular Elk cartridge, and doing high school math a/b = c/d, we can see the 223 is way to big for even the biggest mule buck.

What happens is boys guns weigh ~ 5 pounds and men's guns weigh ~10 pounds. There is power, range, and recoil to deal with. We optimize and they work backwards to justify our answer.

In my situation, I weigh 160 pounds, shoot deer to 600 yards, carry the rifle for just a few miles, not afraid of recoil, but it screws up my accuracy.

This puts me in the 7mmRM 140 gr optimum zone.

If you are 300 pounds and shoot from the truck or 125 pounds and climb mountains, that may not be right for you.... or any of the other listed variables.

I believe the .280 Ross is .289....pretty close to the mythical .29

I have always preferred a bullet of the diameter that matched the bore of the rifle I am shooting at the game.

Best reply so far.

Amen. That's a good one.

Assuming your deer and pigs are the same as ours I'll vote .308.

As I am thinning the herd, front runners are:

.264
.277
.308

Pick a Nosler partition in any of the three bore diameters, and I would be good to go for what I hunt.

You would have thought the US military would have put a lot of thought and study into choosing .30 caliber for our small-bore, smokeless powder cartridges, the 30-40 Krag, and the 30-06.

According to Franklin Mallory in his book, THE KRAG RIFLE STORY, the choice was arbitrary, merely copying what most European counties were doing, using from 7.5 to 8mm diameters for their military cartridges at the time.

The Spanish-American War proved the worth of the 7mm bullets (.284") in the 7x57 Mauser rifles, yet, despite serious consideration, the US chose to stick with the .30 caliber when it developed the rimless 30-03/30-06. That American attitude of "bigger must be better," evidently won out.

So, my answer to the OP's question as to the best bullet diameter bullet for the 30-06 case? I would be inclined to choose the .284 bullet, which just happens to duplicate one of the best American cartridges ever produced: the 280 Remington.

As always, Mister Nifty, please do not confuse me with someone who knows squat. I'm just asking questions.



Weren't all the world powers pretty much being arbitrary? You've got this period of the 1890s to 1910's, where everyone pretty much settled on their caliber of choice for the next 60 years and some folks picked 6mm, some 6.5, some 7, some 8.

I happen to be somewhat of a 30-something snob. I know it. I pretty much wallow in it. I can also tell you why, and very of it has anything to do with rational thought. I can see guys all over the world with powder burns on their lab coats coming up with similar conclusions in pretty much the same way.

I also wonder here about the Mauser Brothers. I'm scratching my head. On the one hand you've got them developing the basic idea for the ultimate bolt-action military and hunting arm ever conceived. Somebody has been shooting a Mauser design at their enemy since just after our Civil War. It became the standard and has stayed the standard. On the other hand, the caliber and chambering remained pretty much a whimsical proposition. Mauser seems to have never tried to say, "Look here, guys. If you really want our rifles to perform well, here's this suggestion on bore diameter." The Germans pick 8mm. The Spanish 7mm, Swedes and Boors pick 6.5. We get all hot and sweaty on 7.62mm. You'd think -- if it were possible-- that someone would have done the research back then to figure out what the best was and standarized on it.

My guess is that there really isn't a possibility. For one thing, if you were to get the great minds of the late 19th century in a room to discuss the matter, they'd sound like the Barber Shop on Saturday morning. Nothing would get done. For another thing, you can make an argument for any caliber in the 6-8mm range, and you can make it work-- at least to take down a human-sized target out to as far as you can see with the naked eye. It ain't just about caliber. It's also about who has what kind of powder, what shape are the bullets you're testing, and the general size and capacities of the cannon-fodder you pick to test the weapon in field trials. We've been basically testing this question since the 1890's and we still cannot come to any meaningful conclusions. I suspect we never will.

Then again, there is .29. Mister Mule Deer might have something there.

7.7 with a Nosler

The largest bullet diameter you can buy or make
With the longest length possible
With the largest weight possible
With the fastest speed possible
With the most aerodynamic shape for cross-continental shots
With a construction that does the most internal damage and can penetrate the entire length of the animal on a quartering shot

And a flatbed trailer to haul the gun that will shoot the bloody thing.

This will be resolved after all people agree what is the best color, what food tastes the best, and who is the best looking woman.

If this discussion was ever definitive, there would be no starter conversation in hunting camp. No caliberational profiling etc .
How dull.

I waded through a lot of posts to find this gem. Bullet matching the bore diameter eliminates a lot of problems. Other than that, I couldn't care less what diameter a bullet is as long as the trajectory is reasonable for ranges I'll likely shoot and the combination of mass, velocity and construction mean the bullet will penetrate adequately.

Shaman,

I found some more information regarding the adoption of the .30 caliber bullet by the US Military.

In 1888, Lt. Colonel Eduard Rubin, Director of the Thuns Munitions Factory in Switzerland, submitted his magazine rifle and ammunition to the Springfield Armory for testing for possible adoption by the US Military. His cartridge was 7.5mm (.30 cal.). He resubmitted his rifle and ammunition in the official 1892 Trials at the Springfield Armory, where it lost out to the Krag rifle.

In developing the new ammunition for his designs, Rubin was faced with producing jacketed lead bullets to accommodate the higher velocities. Jackets made from iron, steel, copper and various alloys were tested. He worked with 6.5mm (his initial preference) and 7.5mm bullets. He found it was considerably easier to get consistent quality bullets produced in the larger diameter of 7.5mm. Otherwise 6.5mm might have won out. An alloy of copper and zinc, called Tomac, was the best and most cost effective jacket material he found.

I suspect that the Springfield Armory officials were impressed enough with the work of Lt. Col. Rubin, starting 4 years earlier with his presentation in 1888, that they agreed with his conclusion that .30 caliber was a good, practical bore diameter. If 6.5mm had worked out well enough for Rubin, we likely would have wound up with the 264-06, or 26-06, in our Springfield rifles. The Swiss have long had a reputation for technology and precision. For those rifle Loonys that consider .30 caliber to be the "best" rifle caliber, I suggest that they can probably thank the Swiss and Mr. Rubin.

Change to groove diameter instead.