A buddy is building this for a friend. It is a bolt gun. He will compete with it as a Palma rifle I believe. Below is the initial chrono work to make sure it has enough beans to do the job. Thought you folks would be interested in this different kind of project.





***************
I have finished with the velocity testing for now. Still using the 168 gr. Berger Hybrid out of a 28" barrel. Temperature was 51 degrees. Four powders were tested, and three of them produced good velocity. The burn rate of the Vihtavouri N530 and Accurate 2460 was perfect. The IMR4166 ran out of room at 38 gr. and didn't make much velocity.

N530

36 gr. - 2677
38 gr. - 2795
39 gr. - 2816 (velocity per grain leveling off)


AA2460

39 gr. - 2741
40 gr. - 2793
41 gr. - 2844


N201

37 gr. - 2674
39 gr. - 2789


IMR4166

38 gr. - 2603
***************

Just curious why did he pick a 30-30?

It looks like fun. Those velocities are going to play hell on the brass, but if he gets what he wants, it's all good. 30-30 brass is cheap enough anyway.

Maybe he can talk Lapua into a run of brass.....

Kaiser Norton

Be interesting to see how the brass does.
This will be a custom chambered bolt gun.
Good tight brass fit, minimal sizing, stiff action, I'm sure.


Even with thin 100+ year old designed brass,
whole 'nother ball game than a lever.

Well, Michael Turner of New Mexico has been shooting a 30-30 for years in serious short range competition. Of course he uses a custom BR rifle. He has sent many of us home with our tails between our legs at matches. My buddy, Bamban, is a High Master shooter and decided on a whim to build a rifle, Maybe Palma, for medium range comps. That is 300-600 yards.
The chrono work and velocity workup was with Michael's Ruger #1. I believe they have found brass from a kinda new company that is working well, Starline maybe? I can find out. I have some Federal brass without headstamp that was given to an elderly friend of mine for experimentation. I donated some for them to play with.
I will try to keep you informed as the project advances.

Just received this note from Bamban:

Michael did some proof testing of 30-30 brass using his own massive machined proof test receiver and a proof barrel, firing the same case at proof load, I believe was 30 times, brass survived.

The final product will be in a MCS action by Mo Defina. That action is pretty stout with an obnoxiously long tenon - around 2 inches.

Not your grandfather's 30-30....

The brass should survive. Does he have plans to examine the brass after each reloading? Even with a tight chamber, it's gonna want to thin itself out and stretch a little. It's no problem. It just means he'll have to determine how many good loads he can get from it before the brass is used up. For competition, cost is rarely a consideration, just functionality.

No, it ain't a mod94.
Steve, I think he will have plenty of brass and Michael learned over the years that you need to watch the brass. It does grow, as I found with my 225 and 219AI Zipper.

Interesting. The loony is strong on this thread!

John Wooters wrote about leaning hard on a .30/30 in a TCR single shot. IIRC he didn't provide load data, but ran it up to .300 Savage territory. He was whitetail hunting, of course.

Might have been in his book on trophy deer hunting. Have to dig it out and re-read it.

Sounds like fun.

Yeah, I always heard you shouldn't hot rod a .30-30 even in a good bolt gun because the brass is thin, or does this guy have a source of "SPECIAL" brass? Do they now make .30-30 +P?

What action is he using for it?

They are testing or as mentioned above some new brand of brass. It is looking good. Nosler works well for them also. They make their own custom dies to size the brass no more than necessary. They do not want to overwork their brass sizing it.

MCS action by Mo Defina

In an older Nosler manual Steve Timms mentioned loading a Ruger No. 1 in 30-30 to some pretty decent velocities with the 125 grain NBT.

I was told that you could reach him, Mo @ 203-775-1023 Some folks called it the PAS receiver also.

Lots of folks used to use the .375 Winchester brass necked down for both the 30-30 and the 30-30 Ackley. They can be hard to find now. I saw my uncle raise up his pre-64 Mod 94 and shoot, off hand, at a big doe a tad over 300 steps. She dropped like a rock from a high shoulder shot. It was her unlucky day! ha

For years I have heard the old tale about 30/30 brass being weak and thin. Nobody who repeats this tale has ever taken the trouble to measure any brass. The truth is, the web on 30/30 brass is, on average, juat as thick as the web on my 308 Norma Mag brass. The case is thin at the front but this has no bearing on strength at the head. In addition, most rifles chambered for rimmed cartridges enclose most of the case within the chamber. In a Ruger No.1, the case is entirely contained except for the extractor cut. I have long noticed that rimmed cases do a remarkable job of containing pressure.
I have seen no evidence that any case, regardless of shape or pressure, stretches at all from firing; provided the firing is done in a rigid, true, front locking, action. I'm being called. More later. GD

I agree. I got some phenomenal speeds from a 30-30 Ackley Mod 336 carbine. I ran right on the heels of the 300 Savage, but back off a tad just to be safe. I never had a case failure, brass lasted a long, long time, and this is from a Marlin! I can only imagine what a good strong action would produce! Love to hear a follow up though! I "cut my teeth" on a Mod 94 Classic ( I bought it myself at 16) I could have killed 98% of all the game animals I've taken since with a good 30-30! Well, maybe 75%!

Nothing really new here, but exceedingly interesting nonetheless. .30-30 in a strong bolt gun or single shot has been a well kept secret among target shooters for generations. Seek out a M54 Winchester .30-30 sometime and give it a whirl. I've been working with two successive ones for 35 years now.

In my younger years I hotrodded the bejapers out of it and the brass held up wonderfully. Nowadays my interest runs strictly with cast bullets in the .30-30, seeking the accuracy boundaries of same in the bolt gun. I would embarrass myself to publish the tiny groups that old girl turns in (while wearing a 12x Fecker scope). Take the scope off and it reverts to being a jim dandy whitetail woods rifle. If money were no option I would install a bull barrel and heavy stock and really go to town.

Cast bullet cognoscenti have long held that the .30-30 case represents nearly ideal case volume for this kind of work. No surprise to me that someone is taking it a step farther, with good streamlined bullets for long range work. Its only limitation that I can see would be at extremely long range when the bullet crosses the super/sub sonic barrier.

I submit that the .30-30 is a whale of a lot more versatile than considered by most, due to them not ever having considered it beyond lever gun use.

If I had to relegate myself to just one rifle cartridge to experiment with for the rest of my days I would be quite happy if it were the lowly .30-30.

QuickLoad says 1843fps at 600 and 1320 at 1000.
I believe that is still supersonic.

The brass is thinner, but it will survive. A tight action makes stretch less of a problem, but it still happens. I would be interested in hearing about the brass. I shoot a 30-30 Contender. The chamber isn't as tight as a comp gun, but it is better than a lever.

It's always fun to test limits, develop new techniques or use new component designs. That's what makes the newer cartridges better. They aren't magic, but are the result of advances.

Keep us posted plse.

Gotcha. But what if, say, best accuracy sweet spot with that cartridge/bullet was better at significantly lower velocity than that? Would he forge ahead sacrificing a little accuracy for better long range ballistics?

That project is taking tinkering to a whole ‘nother Level.... just sayin’

As the motorheads say, "Ain't no substitute for cubic inches except more of them".

The 30/30 does have more capacity than those century-old lever gun loadings would suggest.

I think the main thing they are looking for at the present is velocity and the least extreme spread. When the bolt rifle is complete they will have a base line to start. The round will have to stay super sonic to the target for the best accuracy. They will be able to play with the loads after the rifle is complete, but they needed the velocity readings.

Unless the object of the exercise is to test this new 30-30 brass. Is it just a new brand, or is there something special about its makeup that makes it of interest? Or it simply might be because he wants to.

Re: the earlier comment regarding .375 brass. I used to use that brass necked down to .30-30 for breech seating in a .30-30 single shot. I considered it to be virtually "Everlasting" brass. With its thick neck it also worked a treat for thumb seating .310" cast bullets when loading at the range for the bolt gun. One case was all I would take to the range, with powder, primers, and bullets when shooting either rifle. I think I still have half of that box of virgin .375 brass kicking around here someplace.

I still don't get the why of this.

Because he can, most probably...

Would like to know, myself, too.

Why not?

I can't speak about shooting 30-30 from a comp gun, but from a Contender, it's a hoot. Pointy bullets and cheap brass. What's not to like?

The bullets are Lapua FMJs, 123 gr. 308 dia.

Why not! A fun project with probably the most knowledgeable 30-30 competition shooter-smith. Maybe to stick a needle into the guys rolling their eyes.

Good enough reason for me...

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?95849-Why-I-Shoot-the-30-30-in-Benchrest

Hodgdon's LeverEvolution powder will get very near to 300 Savage velocity in a 30-30 and is 10,000-12,000 CUP less in pressure. With my eyes and a peep sight I am getting consistent ~1.5" groups at 100 yards with it.

Misconceptions, Old Wive's Tales, and narrow-mindedness abound in our sport as much as anywhere else. Maybe more so after reading some posts on the 'Fire over the years.

Interesting project for sure!

Thanks for the link! He did it on a dare. That'll learm 'em!

Correction: The "Palma" matches are a specific set of matches shot at 800, 900 and 1000 yards with iron sighted rifles shot from an unsupported prone position (sling). There are also very specific cartridge requirements. For "The Palma" which is contended internationally every four years between countries, competitors must shoot the 308 Winchester/7.62 NATO with a bullet no heavier than 156gr. NRA Palma (for US Shooters) also allow a 223 and the 308's can shoot bullets heavier than 156gr.

The rifle as described would more accurately be called a Prone Rifle. The experience from the old days is that it takes ~2700fps muzzle on a 168 Sierra to cross 1K supersonic.

BTW, wasn't there some efforts decades ago to shoot a 30-30 based cartridge in Bench Rest? I remember reading the article where they even had Federal produce higher quality, small primered brass headstamped "30 American" to form their cartridges. I've heard that Dave Tooley is the repository for information on that historical effort.

Nez was never bound by convention. After accomplishing all he wanted with the AR in Service Rifle competition, he went hard at doing it all over again with a retro M14 (actually an M14 with the modern technology applied to it). I am not surprised he is doing this. Best wishes to him.

I thought the dogma was a rimmed cartridge was immune or at least highly resistant to brass changes due to said rim.

I always wondered why the 30/40 Krag wasn't looney fodder.

I think there is some deficiencies in rimmed cartridges performance in some actions?

But I love the 30/30 and I use mostly lever lotion powder in them.

Because you can push a 185gr berger to those speeds out of a .308win and get your aze handed to you when the wind blows.

Maybe he is using that 30 American brass they made 20 years or so back ,seems like it was thicker and used a small rifle primer? MB

Keep us updated on the progress Butch.

I will keep you updated. They are not using 30 American brass, but if they had any they would play with it. I was wrong about it being a Palma rifle, Nez corrected me.

I have a 30/40 prone rifle which I built on a PGW action (40X clone). Shoots just like a 308 only faster. I have another built on a Ruger 77 and ser up for "F" class. With a barrel change, it becomes a 30/30 heavy varminter. I get more pleasure out of a 1/4 inch group from the 30/30 than I do a 1/8 inch group from the 6BR. GD

Everyone knows there is only a handful of inherently accurate cartridges out there and if it doesn't have a 30 degree shoulder, it has to have a 30 somewhere....

I have done an overload work up on a 30-30 to see how far the brass will go

Savage 219L-D single shot break action 30-30
1 in 12" twist
26" long.
7 pound rifle

220 gr HNDY round nose moly W748 2.92" 26" barrel, 30-30
Quickload prediction:
33 gr 51 kpsi 2176 fps
34 gr 56 kpsi 2232 fps
35 gr 62 kpsi 2287 fps
36 gr 68 kpsi 2340 fps
37 gr 75 kpsi 2394 fps
38 gr 83 kpsi 2446 fps brass and primer still look good
39 gr 92 kpsi 2498 fps primer very cratered, case full of powder, ball powder compresses a hair below 2.92"

If you want to find a reason for why Frank de Haas hated the Sav 219L-D, take one apart and put it back together. The parts are stamped [poorly] sheet metal.

Is Nez the shooter or the shmiff?

I am about to take possession of a single-shot 30-30 from Henry Firearms. I need it like a hole in the head, but an wanted another toy. This is very interesting reading and I am afraid that I may have to get into a little testing myself. The trigger is pretty heavy, but using new bullets and stout loads, could make this rifle a blast. It is going to be a short-range doe smucker, but why not try something other than the normal loads?

Nez is the shooter. Since Michael has so much experience building and shooting the 30-30, Nez decided to let him do the metal work.

Great thread, and great link to the benchrest forum. Years ago, a guy wrote about high velocity .30-30 loads in a Ruger #1. forget where I saw it, but it was screaming along with very good accuracy.

You make a great point about the Krag! I have a Ruger #3 in 30-40 Krag that will go faster than anyone will publish (with no pressure signs)!

Well in all truth what I said was old info. I guess everything improves with time except Libtard Democrats.

With Win W 748, you might be surprised what kind of velocity you can get out of a 30/30 case...

How does the 30-30 ballistics compare to the 270 in this case?

I remember Seafire's posts about 748 seated long in the 30-30 lever action... about 15 years ago on AR.

The 30-30 case can take a lot more pressure than the 270 case [despite the nonsense in "Speer 12" about 30-30 case strength], but has less volume than the 270 case.

I have overloaded hundreds of guns. After I bought the Win 94 and Marlin 336 for overloading, I could see that they were too weak to work up to brass or primer failure. So I never reproduced Seafire's experiments.

But Savage 219s in 30-30 are many times stronger than the brass. It is the same calculation I went through for the 45/70 Handi Rifle.

Do you have an opinion on the Henry break-action rifles? I just got one in 30-30 and it seems like a great little rifle. I have not been able to shoot it yet, though.

The Henry looks similar.

In the handi rifle I went through calculation of the chamber splitting. I used Lame's formula for thick wall cylinders, calculated many section modulus on forces trying to bend the breech face back, double shear force on the latch pin, and some other things.

a) In the 45/70 Handi rifle I worked up to 405 gr cast with lube bands, CCI 200 primers, 45/70 Win brass, Unique powder 32 gr, 87,841 psi [Quickload calculation]

b) A Stevens OEM break action 410 shotgun looked similar, so I worked up to Win 45C brass CCI200, 405 gr .458 lead cast .981", 40 gr H110 2.75"

c) Savage 219L-D single shot break action 30-30 looked similar, so I worked up to 220 gr HNDY round nose moly W748 2.92" 39 gr W748 92 kpsi [Quickload calculation]

By similar I mean thick chamber wall and beefy breech face.

Clark,
I've used Lame' thick wall formula for pressure calculations and believe you have understanding of the proper applications from our previous correspondences. That said, I'm not a firearms designer, but would like to throw out a caveat; it is my understanding that it is a standard practice to design in a safety factor of 2 for firearms. ie, a system failure at 88kpsi would have a DO NOT EXCEED pressure of 44kpsi.

Chris,
Using Lame's is an improvement over thin wall, although one of Roark's formulas for open end tube would be better. But the barrel it is not a simple open ended tube, and there is no exact formula. The classic example was Ruger boring out the 44 mag for the new 454 model and it blew up in proof testing. The story was in October 16, 2000 issue of Machine Design magazine. I don't know if I can find my copy, but much of that article is here
https://www.cartech.com/en/alloy-te...revolvers-get-lift-from-aerospace-alloys

Per my experiments and calculations, when I overload a 45 Colt or 357 mag revolver and calculate the stress in the steel, it should split that cylinder earlier in the work up, but they don't. Peak PSI does not seem to cause predicted yield in 1 millisecond.
So we are stuck with some experimenting, not only do the stress/ strain formulas break down with complicated barrels, but the steel does yield at high speed the same as it does in static texts in the materials profile.

But to your point about safety.
I am measuring the chamber wall thickness of a 357 magnum at 0.065"
I am measuring the chamber wall thickness of a 30-30 break action at 0.302"
I am measuring the chamber wall thickness of a 410 shotgun break action at 0.275"
I am measuring the chamber wall thickness of a 45/70 break action at 0.312"

The proof pressure is ~ 57,000 PSI on a 357 magnum.

By simple reckoning from the 357 magnum, the break action 30-30 should go to P= .302/.065 [57kpsi] = 265 kpsi.
In a work up until bras flowed or primer pierced, the 30-30 break action would always have more than 2:1 safety margin on the chamber splitting.
I guess I could correct for inside diameter. That term is in thin wall, thick wall, and Roark.
30-30 base is 0.422"
357mag base is 0.379"
That would lower the 30-30 to 238 kpsi, not 265kpsi.

Clark,
I used Lame' because I was looking for peak pressure (hoop and radial) and for that purpose, the chamber acted as a closed ended vessel. The only reason I bring up the safety factor is for someone reading along and taking it as license to run to "run 'er up to what ole Clark says the receiver can handle"...although I understand that was not your intent.

Interesting. I would never try to work up to the levels that you are testing, but it does prove that some cartridges are actually able to tolerate far more than what is considered the norm. I think that it may be fun to work up a pointy bullet to moderate levels, just to see how good the 30-30 can be. I am not trying to make it a .308, or anything bigger, but it would sure be fun to stretch it a bit.

There's always someone who wants to breed a cat to a dog.

Must be cold in the upper pen.

This thread reminds me of the Phil Sarpe article in the March 1952 issue of the American Rifleman. That Old Thutty Thutty.
Phil’s friend Dick Hart came out to visit with a 20lb, 31” barrel, Winchester Hi Wall in 30-30.
The listed velocities were not high as we know them now but we have more varieties of powder.
Here is a picture of Phil at the bench behind the Old Thutty Thutty.

Funny how some bust on a different use of the 30-30.
Make claims against it, and it's capabilities.



But then, we make the 6.5 x 55 smaller (260) and squeeze it to perform.
Then we make it smaller (6.5 creed) and squeeze it to perform

And brag about it.


And make it smaller (6.5 Grendel) and again..... then brag about the performance
in the platform. Hell, the Germans and Sweede's built a cartridge that outperformed
the above back when the 30-30 was new.

Pretty neat. I haven't thought of Phil in a long time.

I bred a cat and a dog. 150 Interlock (spire point), 1/2 moa at 100, 2553 fps, 5 fps es for three shots, no pressure signs. This is with a 7.5-pound trigger! I like it! Lots of close does are going to die with this load!

Just goes to show that the hoary old .30-30 has got some life left in it! Everybody forgets it was the 6.5 Creedmoor of its day 120 years ago.

One day I intend to give it a whirl with 130 TSX's for sh*ts and giggles. Out of a 24" barrel it too may be an eye opener.

I made that comment to someone. My results were with an 18-inch barrel! The 130 out of a 24 should really cook. I think that I would use a standard lead, though, unless you are going to hunt elk with it. I think the SST bullet should work real well for that application. It expands readily, which would stretch the range out a bit. My load provides enough energy (over 900 lbs., at 300 yards) but the velocity with the 150, drops to just over 1700, which is about the limit. The minimum is considered to be 1800 fps for the Interlock, as per Hornady data. No big deal, as I intend to use it for 250 and under anyway.

I used a dummy round to check max length and then backed off a bit, as the Interlock likes to jump a bit. I loaded it to 2.65 oal and dumped 40 grains of CFE223 in the case. I was shocked at the results with the first trial run of the load. No further development needed! The casing fell right out of the chamber, so I could probably push it a bit more, but see no need to. The worst part about this whole thing, is that the rifle has a 7.5 pound trigger. It breaks cleanly, though, so I just have to be careful to follow through and not jerk it. So far, so good.

30/30 Creedmore!

If you want to make the standard .30-30 sing with the 130-grain bullets hunt up a 26" barrel. Its easy to get 2,650 to 2,700 fps using Hodgdon Varget. Between 36.0 and 37.0 grains will do the deed.
In the 20" barrel IMR 4895, 3031 and Alliant Reloder 7 will push the 130 grain bullets 2,450 fps+
36.0 grains of IMR 3031 is a pretty good load.
In the 16" Trapper 31.0 grains of Reloder 7 will give you 2,230 fps.
With the flat nose Speer bullet you have a good flat shooting .30-30 load - maybe not a 300 yard load but a good load for the walking hunter.

If you want higher performance the 20" .30-30AI will push the 130 grain bullet above 2,700 fps with many different powders. Hodgdon 322, 4895, 335 and Alliant Reloder 7 will all deliver the performance you are after.
Grandads 26" barrel .30-30 delivered fine performance and as Whelenman said - The Creedmoer of its day.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3030again.htm

That is a real cool article. Because of the anemic actions that were used in the lever guns, the 30-30 was pretty under-rated. This is only the second 30-30 that I have ever owned. The first one was a very accurate Marlin-Westernfield with a tip-off mount and 2.5x scope, that I got for $100. It was like brand new. I traded it straight across for a Savage, left-hand 7 mag.

This rifle intrigued me, because of the strong break-action design and the allowance of shooting longer oal. I think that the common 30-30 brass may not allow for lots of firings, but time will tell as I proceed. I really have no need to press the 30-30 into service that would make it a long-range cartridge. I have plenty of rifles for that. I am just interested in its abilities within reasonable parameters of the cartridge. I will use it primarily for killing deer at ranges under 250 yards. Most summers, I kill 20-50 deer for a neighbor on depredation permits. I hope he comes up with more permits this summer, as I really want to wring out the 30-30 with the 150 Interlocks.

One other thing that makes this rifle fun, is that I doubt that I could ever punch enough moderate-velocity loads through it to damage the barrel. It is limited only by how much playing I want to do with the rifle-which I believe is going to be a bunch. It is low recoil, inexpensive to load for and capable of good accuracy.

I have a number of very accurate rifles that have become boring, because they all just plain shoot about anything. This little smoker has given me something that kind of peaks my interest, because you do not see a lot about people pushing the limits of the cartridge. Fun.

any update?

Nez is waiting on his barrel. Lederer is basically a one man shop, so barrels come out slow.

My first thought too.

You know for a comp. rifle, he will have new brass for each match.

Nez and his brother were visiting from Austin, Tx and left me a gift.



I need them to visit again.

Here's a 30-30 at 900 yards.... this guy has a lot of fun YouTube videos...

https://youtu.be/Q8bPEPc3fnA

Lots of interesting stuff here. I enjoyed reading the thread.

I have not worked with a 30-30 since '79 when I assisted my Uncle with loads for his grandkids to use in a Win 94 for deer hunting. We loaded a Speer 130 gr HP over a maximum listed charge of IMR3031.

I have no idea what the MV was, but Uncle swore they were darned lethal on mule deer in the upper hay fields and pastures.

The bullet had a very large open cavity in the nose, which Uncle swore worked just like a flat point, so the rounds were safe in the tubular magazine of the 94. (according to him)

I know for a fact, my cousin has killed several mule deer and a couple elk at well over 400 yds with the 94 in 30-30. Lots of hold over and Kentucky windage. Sometimes it takes him eight or ten rounds to anchor the game, but he always fills his freezer.

Did Nez ever get to fire his 30-30 rifle?

I need to call him. I really don't know.

I emailed Nez. He in Virginia visiting his kids and grand children. Said he hasn't had an opportunity to play with it yet.

Thanks for the update. ...so his schmiff finished it and it's in his hands now?

It is in his hands. Said he had only done a little velocity testing so far.

Chris,
This is what he emailed:

Looks like the 168 Hybrids will do 2750 to 2800 from our pressure and velocity testing.

Keith Stephens ran the 168s at 2750 through his 20 inch AR10 when he shot 200-17X at 1000 during NRA Nationals

I'm not a 30-30 guy so wouldn't know what these velocity means.

Evening gets, your talking way over my head, but I always wanted a Savage 99 - 26" bbl to play with a bit & use the 125 or 110 V-max or noslers balistic tips. Cool deer gun? Bill out. 🐾👣🐾👣🇨🇦

That post is getting funnier the closer the 6.5 Creed soap opera gets to me. I know a hunter who did well with the 6.5C in Utah this year and yet another 6.5C hunter in Montana that was such a bust, he had to borrow a long action rifle.

I have a wildcat 35/30-30, or 35-30 in other words. It shoots any tube mag friendly bullet in 357-358 inches. I was given a recommended load by a person I trusted and they were way too hot for my rifle. The brass showed damage after only one round shot, and the primers were cratered. They had obvious signs of case head separation issues so I tossed them . I quickly found me a different load. I guess the brass will hold up different depending on the rifle.

You didn't say what rifle you're shooting, but case head separation is generally more about headspace than case pressure, unless the action is stretching with high pressure loads.

Primer cratering doesn't mean all that much either, and may just be an indication of a slightly large firing pin hole. Primers are a notoriously poor indicator of max pressure.

All that to say - while you certainly may have had high pressure loads, the "pressure signs" you listed don't necessarily indicate high pressure, even though they are often misinterpreted as such.

from the 30-30 page in Speer Reloading manual #12 -1994:

Some bolt-action and single-shot rifles have been chambered for this
cartridge. Reloaders can use spitzer-type bullets in these rifles, but
should keep the weight to 150 grains or less. Heavier spitzer bullets
cannot be driven fast enough in the 30-30 to expand reliably. We are
occasionally asked if the 30-30 can be loaded to higher velocities in
a modern bolt action like the Remington Model 788. The answer is NO!
The 30-30 case is an old design with relatively thin walls. Attempting
to load "hotter" would risk a dangerous case failure.

This is, of course, pure BS.
The case head is the weak link, and the 30-30 [with a rim] is way stronger than the 270 [with extractor groove] which is registered at 65,000 psi.
Vernon Speer [write a reloading book by overloading until brass yields and back off 6% -1956] must roll over in his grave allot.

One thing I'm missing in all this is: Why 30-30?

Is it for bragging rights? I this like they guy who hotrods his Honda Civic?

I'm wondering why folks would want to play with this chambering in this context. I don't mean to malign it or the experimenters. I'm just trying to figure out what I'm not getting.

More to the point, why would they not? This is what gun enthusiasts do; they experiments with things which are not necessarily mainstream. GD

The .30-30 has been pigeonholed into the role of a lever action wood's deer hunting cartridge for so long that the rank and file can't (or won't) recognize its virtues as a very efficient .30 caliber target round. As I've stated before, I would be happy as a pig in sh*t to have just the .30-30 available to me for my experimental work for the rest of my life, given its chambering in suitable bolt guns and single shots (which I have).

Now that you put it that way. . .

I still don't see it, but I do at least believe that you all do. It just seems like the hard way to go.

I can relate why you can’t see it. The myth that cartridge accuracy has to be “designed“ as well as “new”, has been perpetuated quite a lot.

Heads stamps have a lot less to do with accuracy than what we have been lead to believe.......... a lot less!

Time for you to open your eyes a little more. I know it's early, mebbe another cuppa Joe would help?
My .30-30 lost control of itself awhile back and did this when I weren't lookin'. I don't recall the last time it shot a group as big as 1". Maybe 20 years back when I was doin' load workup.


It even works on moving targets.


I know it's hard to understand for some folks, but sometimes a fella can even hit what he's aiming at with lead and black powder a fair piece down the road.


Sometimes it's useful to know some of the fine details about what yer doin', even with modern stuff like the .30-30 and jacketed bullets.
,
http://wyomingschuetzenunion.com/gallery/31/medium/197.jpg
http://wyomingschuetzenunion.com/gallery/31/medium/198.jpg

Oh, in my mind, this isn't about age as much as cartridge design and case capacity. I'm sure you can make a 30-30 accurate. In fact I had a friend who used to win a lot of $100 bets with his Marlin 336. I'm just thinking that if I wanted to hit something at 600 yards, I'd be thinking of using something else for a starter. 30-40 Krag would be more in the ballpark I'm thinking of. There's maybe 20% more case capacity and the whole system can operate under lower pressures and still get the job done. Again, I'm speaking out of ignorance.

Honestly, if I was just trying to make a small group of holes at 600 yards, I'd start with 308 WIN. It seems like an easier way to go. If I wanted to get exotic and antiquated, I'd build a 7.62X54R and use a .308 barrel. There's got to be a catch with 30-30 I'm just not seeing.

The "catch" with most any cartridge is the shooter.

Assume that one knows how to load quality ammo, has a gun with the bugs banished and knows his drops and drift. Within reason there is no advantage to larger case capacity, low/high pressure, an extra .004 points on the BC scale. A good gun, loads and a savvy shooter rule the roost 7 days a week.

For example, the big red target I posted above? It was shot with a muzzle loader. I suspect that a 350 grain .40 caliber bullet will reach 600 yards, whaddya think? Crosswinds are pesky, I will admit that. Dunno if you ever really spent a lot of time looking at the relationship between bullet form, velocity/drag and all that gak, but a fella might be shocked to see what happens to BC when velocity goes subsonic with a flat base bullet.

Hint: It's up in the .390-.410 range




The calculator says it will lose about 250 fps over the course of 1,000 yards, given a MV of 1050 fps. Will I try that? No, but mostly because I don't want to drive all day to find a range to do that.


Wait, I'm sorry, I know you can't hit chitt with cast bullets.



I will say again, for the record, it's the jerk behind the trigger that matters, assuming that a small bit of common sense is used. I won't try BB's at 600 yards for example....

Be cautious when betting against stunt shooters, they'll take your nickle every time. I did it with a 1911 Colt when I "killed" a cement truck one day. Just a little bit more than 300 meters down range. One shot, one "klang" and one case of beer. Oooh Raaah!

You might reread from the first. My buddy is a High Master shooter. He saw Michael Turner winning short range BR matches shooting his 30-30 bolt rifle. Michael has been kicking AZZ across the country with his 30-30. Nez decided to visit with Michael and talked with him about doing a 30-30 for 300-600 yard competition.
They decided on a Lederer barrel and a Mo Defina receiver.
Yes, Nez would like to rib his buddies about getting beat by a 30-30. I bet some of you fellers have wanted to do the same.
Now, If this thread isn't interesting to you, I believe you could find about a 1,000 more on here to follow.

Believe me, I do find the thread interesting, and I've read it front to back a couple of times. That's why I asked the question. There's a subtlty here I'm not catching.

The challenge coupled with an intense desire to "march to a different drummer" is what drives folks like this. That, and liking to throw off the shackles of conformity and an intense dislike of common knowledge (known in some circles as "old wive's tales"). No subtlety involved.

I could have simply bought a WinRemTikCZDak in .2236.5CM and yanked it out of the box at the shooting bench and started making bughole groups. Instead I have put together a fair smattering of old pre-war .22 wildcats that required intense tweaking (on my part and/or others) to produce the same satisfying results. Which approach, in the end, do you think I find way more satisfying, hmmm? Thank god the average bear doesn't think that way or the stuff that gives me pleasure wouldn't be affordable due to demand.

"The road less traveled..." - is a far more pleasurable drive. Always.

I did the same thing when I built my 303 British to shoot at a specific 300 meter match. Sierra had just come out with their 174 MK and Shilen was making a .311 barrel so I built it. I was not able to win with it (I came in second to a 6BR) but it did pretty good and it was fun doing it. I think I could have probably won with my own 6BR but just being competitive with a 303 was more fun. By the way, I also managed a second place in a short range BR HV for score match (lost to a 6ppc, of course) with this same rifle. After this, Sierra started making their 174 larger in diameter by .0005" and the rifle was no longer quite as good. I rebarreled with a 30 caliber barrel, still chambered for 303B, and it may get some more use this summer.
I am also convinced that capacity is more important than shoulder angle, taper, etc.and believe the 30/40 and 303 will shoot just as well as a 308 if all are built the same. What's more, I think you can load them hotter and get away with it.
I honestly never considered the 30/30 for use with heavier bullets and always figured it was best suited to be a short range chambering. This is why I chambered my 30/30 in a 14 twist barrel. GD

Shaman, you may recall my thread about the .22 GTC? It is still a work in progress but I'm working the tooling end at present, not shooting it a lot.

So, what's the objective? Something like this, 5 shots with old Wolf MT ammo?


I'm not quite there yet, but it shows promise, no?


Fella plays around with this stuff and there's no tellin' which cat he's gonna pull out of the bag.


Some time back I picked up a nice '51 vintage M70 chambered with the famous .257 Roberts. One of my learned friends told me to not get my hopes up too much as he had a lot of experience with the SG M70s. Well, OK. It seems to like the 100 grain Partitions OK, Only God knows what it will do with a quality bullet.....so far. 5 Shots @ 100 yards, bag rest.


And don't ya just hate it with 1 out of 10 gets cross eyed with a fine old antique like the .250 Savage? Maybe it would be a good 600 yard load, I dunno.

But, but, none of them are Creedmoors, Dan.

Finally! A direct answer. Thank you. This is something I can understand and appreciate.

. . . and to think I was shouted down a while back for contemplating a 30-30 AI!

All ya had to do was call it a .30 Rimmed Creedmoor AI and they woulda all knelt in your presence.

Please say the cartridge used for these targets.

That would be the .30 Sneezer. .357 case with a long neck, cast 185 subs and suppressed.

It doesn't always do that well.






It shoots the ones on the bottom. The others are for when I visit Australia.


It's primary purpose is plinking pigs and I doubt it suitable for the 600 yard line.

Seems to like the old Lyman 31141 fairly well too.

Your 30 Sneezer case with a 31141 attached has maybe half the powder room of my 30 Herrett holding a 30-165-SIL. I'm thinking 7.6 grains of SR4759 might find it pretty cozy in your Sneezer. But, perhaps I'd need to add a pinch of stuffing if I cut my Herrett load back approaching that subsonic level.

I find the idea of a .30 Long Rifle Standard Velocity quite appealing.

Steve

Decades ago, I tried loading the 35-200-FN in a .357 MAG Ruger No.1A, but it seemed maybe the rifling was too slow. Worked pretty well in a .357 Herrett 14", though.

Steve

Don't recall the LD with the 4759 load off the top of my head but there isn't much space left. Not much at all. Pigs don't like it one little bit.