Back last year there was a discussion going on regarding Lee Collet Dies. Somebody wrote a detailed set of instructions on how they used the dies that differed somewhat from the factory instructions.

I bought a few Collet Dies over the summer and used the 8X57 die and those instructions putting together my hunting load for the Mauser From Hell. That batch of rounds shot better than any previous loads, and I managed to get one of the best groups I've ever shot.

Now I'm going back through the posts, and I'll be deuced if I can find those instructions.

Please, point me in the right direction. I now have Lee Collet Dies for 4 different chamberings, and I'm ready to start my spring reloading jag.


BTW: A quick update on the Mauser from Hell. I found a gunsmith close by and dropped the MFH off for a new 2-position safety that isn't bothered by the scope. It's back now on the rack. Back in November, I used the MFH to take my buck-- dropped him at 150 yards with one shot.

Thanks again for all your kind help getting me through this rifle rehab.

Here you go.....

Mathman directions for Lee Collet die


The first thing I recommend is to ignore the instructions supplied with the die.

The second thing I recommend is to ignore whether or not the press you're using cams over at the top of its stroke.

The die squeezes the neck onto a mandrel, so for a given neck thickness there is a finite limit to how much sizing you can achieve. This die will need adjustment to suit different thicknesses of brass.

Raise the press ram to the top of its stroke. Thread the die into the press until the bottom of the sizing collet (not the die body) just touches the shell holder. Measure the neck OD of a piece of brass.

Run the brass through the die using a full press stroke. It should take no effort since if you're set up as described the die has done no sizing. Turn the die into the press about 1/4 turn. Run the brass in again. You probably won't feel much sizing going on, but give the neck a measurement just to see. If it's still nothing, screw the die in another 1/4th and try again. You'll may start feeling a bit going on as you work the press handle, and if so you'll be able to measure a little sizing taking place.

Rinse and repeat using 1/16th turn in increments for the die. You'll feel increases in the force required for the sizing stroke. Since you're measuring the neck after each pass you'll eventually find two increments where the neck didn't get any smaller. NOW STOP TURNING THE DIE INTO THE PRESS. Remember you're squeezing the brass against a solid steel mandrel which isn't going to give, so even if the press stroke didn't feel like it took very much force the neck is as small as it's going to get.

There's a learning curve to the die, but it isn't hard.

I like to run cases through the die twice, spinning the case about 1/3 turn (rather than the 1/2 turn in the instructions) between passes. This means the parts of the neck that were under the splits in the collet fingers on the first pass will get hit on the second.

Puts together most accurate ammo he ever shot.........is worried if he is doing it correctly......

Many thanks! I'll print that to PDF and put it on my reloading room laptop.

Jim: Sorry if I was unclear. It was with those instructions that I got the awesome accuracy.

After the success with 8X57, I bought dies for 223 REM, 30-06, and 25-06.

MATHMAN: You have definitely changed my life for the better.

All of us here fear disappointing mathman!😱

When the aluminum cap on the top of the die goes 'pop' flying straight up sticking into the ceiling drywall.....you've over tightened it...

......which is why I have a little bag of them on a nail over my bench. Getting the little bits of AL-U-minny-um out of the die threads is a bitch.

My collet in my .243 die tends to get stuck at times and will crush a case before you can say boo. Not sure why yet; it's on my list of little mysteries.

Yeah, those big compound presses are hard on aluminum die caps. Don't ask how I know that...

Too much muscle, not enough thinking...

Lee will send you replacements, just call.

Another good thing, you can borrow a cap off another die and keep on loading.

Mathman's instructions beat the heck out of Lee's attempt. They should hire him to write their stuff.

DF

Have you ever completely cycled the press, with the die installed of course, but without a case in the shell holder? That can collapse the collet fingers and lead to problems.

Take the collet out of the die and push a tapered punch into the collet. See if you can get the fingers to stay spread out a little bit more.

Sure I have, but I don't think that's what's happening in this case, more like it's hanging up in the die because when I take it out, the fingers aren't collapsed. Last time I took it out and wiped it with a tiny bit of Ballistol and also the inside of the die. Since I was busy and the problem solved, I just went on with my work. Never happened with my other ones. I'll finger it out, but thanks.

Gotta agree with Shaman, your instructions are a big help.

True dat. I've even quit putting ice in my whisky. (a little spring water sometimes)

I wonder if Lee has a patent on the Collet die? Anybody else make one?

Bet they do.

I've not seen anything on the market similar to that one.

DF

What I wonder/wish is that lee would pair the collet die with a body die

They're almost there with their Deluxe set. I don't care for their FL die, but it makes a great body die. Just grind the die neck to clear the case neck and you have a body die. Have posted this before.

DF

I have done it based upon your example, but about half of my collet dies are customs. Besides Lee could do this super easy and a body die is such a common sense complement to the collet die.

It seems like they could just pull regular FL dies before hardening and ream the necks oversized.

It wouldn’t be hard. Just the marketing, customer demand issue.

Other than a few Loony types, who even knows what a body die is or what you do with it.

So, not sure if such a great idea is ready for prime time.

DF

N
Or, Lee could get with you to write their upgraded instructions on the collet neck sizer. You could write another part on why the customer needs a body die, when and how to use it. Then, include the body die with the collet neck sizer. And with the new die set, add a Forster type seater.

That would be the ultimate die set. Would need no other.

DF

Why would you want a body die along with a collet die?
The whole point of the collet die is to “not work the body” and avoid excessive case stretch. The not having to lube anything is a side benefit.
I shoot max loads and have never had any issue with tight cases going in when I use the Lee collet die.
The die is made for ammo fired in a specific rifle and re-sizing only the neck for that specific rifle chamber.

Just asking......

Mainly because some people handload ammo for more than one rifle in the same chambering. Sometimes the chambers will be close enough in dimensions to handle neck-sized brass, but more often not. As an example, my wife and I own several rifles in .223 Remington. All shoot the same basic load well, but for the "same" load to work in all the rifles the cases need to be FL sized.

Plus, even if the same cases are always fired in the same rifle, after a few firings they often need FL sizing to chamber easily.

While all that is true about the collet die, if you use one, you’ll find out that the case will get hard to chamber eventually. When that happens, setting the shoulder back a bit restores easy chambering. Just a fact of life with that type die.

DF

I guess I only thought I was loading over max..... compared to you guys....
I have Lee Collet Dies for most all of my chambering and use them all the time. But, I have yet the need to bump the shoulder back on any of them....... just saying.....
With 2 exceptions; 270 WSM and 300 WSM. For those, I have to F-L resize those every time.

Like JB wrote, good tight chambers, rifle specific cases, you may not need to bump shoulders. And that may depend on application. With target guns, slightly harder chambering may be OK. When hunting, I want easy to chamber rounds, am more likely to bump shoulders on hunting ammo.

I've had guns that would go on and on with just neck sizing, others that need the shoulder bumped after 3-4 firings. And, some of those are custom barrels, carefully done chambers, too. And good brass seems to be a factor.

I would say, in general, if you're neck sizing you will probably need a body die, eventually.

DF

Respectfully,
I get that Dirtfarmer, and I fully know that, but what I don’t get, is that a Full Length resizing die does all what you both have stated.
I have “partial-length” resized for years with a Full Length resizing die as there was no collet die available then. And back in those days, I couldn’t afford a real neck sizing die.
I learned from older reloaders, one a bench rest shooter, that “partial-length resizing” can give you a bumped back shoulder and a “partially” re-sized neck. But as I also found out, it depended a lot on the actual internal dimensions of the dies I had purchased, which seemed to vary.
Contrary to what so many believe, a case neck really only needs to be re-sized 1/2 of the bullet diameter, and still hold what ever accuaracy the rifle will allow.
Anyway, I appreciate your thoughts and have enjoyed reading these post.

^^^^^^^
You are missing the point a bit.
Yes, partial resizing is a good technique. But you don't have the benefits of two advantages of a collect neck sizer:
A conventional resizer first makes the neck too small then pulls an expander through it. This works the brass a lot. A collect neck sizer squeezes the neck onto a rod. This works the brass a lot less.
Pulling an expander through a neck often makes it crooked. Collect neck sizers often make straighter ammunition.
Most find that after some number of loadings with a collect neck sizer, they still need to bump the shoulder. Even if you only partially resize on these occasions, you work the neck in ways you would prefer not to do.
A body die allows you to set the shoulder back when needed without touching the neck. You can often make a body die from a FL sizing die.

I gotcha.
Thanks

So if I'm starting from scratch, I'd want to buy a Lee Collet Die, a body die (does Lee make these?), and the seater of my choice?

That is the biggest problem. It overworks the brass and then the expander ball becomes the patsy for runout because of the extra work it has to do. This often occurs even when the expander ball assembly is perfectly straight.

A particular cartridge I have a lot of experience with is the 308 Winchester. Neck wall thickness varies quite a bit for the 308. WW brass has typically been .012" thick. Double that plus .308" and you get a loaded neck OD of .332". So the neck needs to be sized down to .330" or so, and most off the shelf FL sizers go smaller than that. I have a Redding FL sizer that does .328". Its expander assembly is straight, and with the slick carbide expander ball installed it sizes WW brass pretty straight and the necks come out .330".

Now let's load that Lapua brass. Necks on it have typically been .015" thick. Twice that plus .308" is .338", so the necks ought to be sized to .336". But the Redding die squeezes them down to .328", and then the expander ball needs to open them up .008". So the brass got cold worked an extra .016", that is, .008" down too much and then .008" back up. On top of that the runout isn't so good and so the groups on target suffer. The handloader who doesn't understand the mechanics of the situation might say that fancy Lapua brass is a ripoff.

Sure, give mathman all the credit, but who’s question was he responding to?

In other words, who gave him the opportunity to provide the information? Yet this person gets zero credit.

It’s a cruel world.





P

Redding makes body dies.

Lee doesn't make one, but it's easy to "make" one from their FL die. For sure that's the cheapest way and I'm generally pretty cheap... Although I do have some Redding body dies.

The Forster seating die is one of the best, IMO. Others make a similar die, i.e. Hornady, but the Forster is about the best, for sure the best value.

It's probably cheaper to get the Lee Deluxe set with four dies. Make a body die out of their FL die. Their seater will do for now. The factory crimp die is handy in some applications. Get a Sinclair gauge to check concentricity and a TruAngle tool to correct run out. Those aren't too expensive and you'll use them with all your rifle rounds.

If the Lee seater isn't working that well, consider the Forster seater. If it's doing OK, you're good to go.

This is about the most buzz for the buck. Expensive target, bushing dies work OK, but cost a bunch more and I don't think they'll make better ammo than the above scenario.

I'm just a practical hunter, shooter, not a LR target guy. Those guys will have their own set up.

DF

And remember you may have a body die on the shelf already, even if it isn't labeled as such.

For example, my 7mm08 FL sizer makes a dandy body die for 260 Rem and 243 Win.

I'm assuming you're talking about the basic Forster seating die, not the micrometer version?

A cruel world for sure.

But, Mathman's excellent post is for us all, Loonies universal...

The original question well may be lost in the compost pile of history...

Good stuff...

DF

Yep

I don't have much use for micrometer dies. They way above my pay grade...

DF

Thanks. Good info in this thread.

I have one micrometer seater I’ve had for 40 yrs. It’s a .222 RCBS competition seater with sliding bullet guide and side feed for bullets. It has a special shell holder and is pretty neat. I don’t use it that much. It will also work for .223 and .22-204.

Most of the time, I’m loading batches of ammo for hogs and such, the std seater is adequate.

DF

Exactly, especially if you already have those dies.

And if not, there’s always the Dremel treatment. Cheaper than buying another die.

DF

18 years ago I broke a Rock Chucker press casting with an 8x57 Lee collet neck die.
I adjusted it for 100 pounds of handle knob forcer as it went over top dead center [would be infinite force if not for friction].
RCBS sent me a whole new press, not just the part.

Now I adjust the Lee Collet Neck Die per the instructions.

I think a lot of collet die users really are using too much force. Using my 70's vintage Rock Chucker and my die adjustment setting (arrived at per my instructions) I finish the down stroke using my thumb for the push.

If you wish to get into a heated argument around here, tell people that

a. they do not have their dies adjusted properly,
b. they exert too much force on the handle,
c. they should adjust the die for it to function at the bottom of the stroke.

Get this part of the collet die discussion going and you're good for several more pages.

Wow. Never saw that before.

I thought I was ham fisted, blowing aluminum caps off the top of the die.

That makes me look good.

Ha!

DF

Never did damage.
But I sure ended up with necks too big to properly hold bullets.
PITA when they are primed, and charged before you figure it out.

First one I tried was a 375 H&H and I did read the instructions but assumed that I would feel a bump or something before the toggle over occurred. Wrong and an old RCBS A2 press is pretty good at launching the entire top part of the collet die. It almost hit the sealing. I was disgusted with the entire set up and threw the body portion into a corner of the bench area where it sat till it rusted. Then after having excellent results with other collet dies I sent the old rusty one back to Lee with a note that it was operator error.

A week later a brand new die arrived in the mail and they didn't even tell me I was a dumb MoFo or anything just thanks for the business. Made me a loyal fan of Lee even though I am not 100% on all of their products, but most are good. Like Zedecker wrote if you can't afford the high grade stuff get Lee.

In most cases I don't need to replace the Lee stuff but if I do the price takes the bite of buying twice and then the duplicate dies may be good as body, bump or form dyes saving on additional purchases for those. They also are a good source of blanks for custom seaters and such. The Lee dies are cheaper in some instances than a die blank.

Yeah, sorta late once they're primed.

You can take material off the mandrel with a drill and sandpaper. Easier to remove than replace...

But don't worry. If you mess up, Lee will sell you a new mandrel for pocket change.

Or, if you give them the diameter you want, they'll send you one.

DF

I followed mathman’s instructions to the letter. My press bottoms out at just the right neck tension.





P

OR you could do what I did and glue the bullets in - yeah I really did that about 17 years ago .
Was loading for my cz221 fb getting ready to head to kaycee , wyoming to shoot P.dogs hadn't been handloading long and was in a hurry - some bullets and brass were acting up on me - Yeah -good ole Elmers helped me kill hundreds of P.dogs that trip .
**don't try this at home kids**

I segregate the brass for those situations where I have more than rifle in the same calibre. I haven't FL sized any rifle cases for years. I haven't had the need to do so. Maybe the day will come, but it hasn't yet, and some of those batches of brass have gone past 30 loading cycles.

The cases come out of the rifle smaller than the chamber, so unless a loose chamber has seen them bulged on one side (something you can avoid in future, if you know about it, by a bit of attention to the first fireforming) if they won't fit back in easily after reloading it is something that is being done to them in the reloading process.

FWIW I use several different brands of brass, and both rimmed and rimless (no belted), in a range of action types.

Doesn't it pee you off how, sometimes, a jury rigged dumb idea works.
When you know it shouldnt.

I was thinking, it's a good thing Lee makes the neck collet die cap out of aluminum. If that part was steel....

I think we'd see more presses like clarkm posted above.

The softer aluminum sorta acts like a pop off valve, blowing up/giving way before more serious damage can be done, especially with a big compound press, a muscled up gorilla on the handle...

I wonder if they did that because aluminum is cheaper to mill or if they knew knuckle heads like us would be tearing up stuff.

DF

I'm guessing the latter.

I would think they've replaced a bunch of them...

And, Lee is good about that, even when it's the customer's fault.

If they had Mathman quality instructions, may not have had to replace as many.

Df

Some of us were sneaking up on the case neck reduction when they first came out. Screw it in a 1/4 turn at a time, checking with a bullet until it wouldn't slide in.

Quite a while ago I posted that a lot of people were pulling press handles like they were playing a slot machine. Pulling too fast, too hard or ignoring the danger signs with setup. One of the biggies is a lot of resistance. With the exception of a few, the responses suggested that hard resistance was to be expected.

I gave up trying to convince people presses should be treated like a lady.

Agree I remind myself anytime I'm loading - to NOT treat the press handle like an old bumper jack - you'll only destroy a piece of brass .

Got going a bit too fast expanding some 6br lapau brass to 7br using RCBS mandrel - felt a bit of resistance at about case #80 of 100 and hello buckled the shoulder over in a case . Great now you have the great even number of 99 cases ,
Easy does it . . . .

Took ruining brass more than once [for me] to realise how much power there is in the press and we're working with a soft metal .

I'd say that as long as you understand how it's all to be used (not sure exactly what you mean by "starting from scratch"), then YES. The Lee Collet die, a Redding Body die, and a good seater will do all you need to do. For a good seater I personally choose and recommend the Forster Benchrest seating die. It's certainly every bit as good as the Redding version (if not better), and much less expensive.

As far as I know, among the major manufacturers only Redding offers a body die

Just meant that if I was buying dies for a new caliber where I didn't already have any dies.

If I'm deciding on a new chambering I haven't worked with yet or a new rifle offered in various chamberings, one of the top criteria is whether or not Lee makes a collet neck sizing die for it. Haven't always followed that but in those rare "cases" ordered a custom die set from Lee. Relatively expensive compared to an off the shelf product but well worth it in both convenience and easy to attain accuracy.

Which reminds me, gotta get off my butt and order one for a .250 Savage...