After reading the responses on the thread about current rifle accuracy, I was moved to write this, but I didn't want to go off on a stray tangent on that thread, so I though I'd start another.
It would seem that, for a change, I am the ultimate expert on a subject on this august forum. It would also seem that a lot of the folks on here must have been living in a parallel universe to the one I was experiencing back in the 1980’s. In their world 4 MOA rifles weren’t acceptable. In mine, they were quite common. Not only that, we accepted them and we used them to kill things. I suppose it could be said that just about anyone can make a 1 MOA rifle work. However, it takes a certain genius to turn a 4 MOA tomato stake into a legitimate deer killer.
I got a used Rem 742 in 30-06 back in the early 80’s. With Remmie Corelokts, it was a solid 4 MOA rifle. It didn’t matter much. I was a bow hunter who spent rifle season in his deer stands. It was hard seeing past 50 yards, let alone shoot anything. I later added a WIN 670 in 30-06. It wasn’t all that accurate as a deer rifle, but it shot 30-06 Accelerators well, and so it became my groundhog gun. I called it “The Vaporizer,” because it would turn a woodchuck into a cloud of mist.
So how does one cope with a 4 MOA rifle?
1) To the rest of the world, you lie a lot. To yourself, you know your limits and you stick with them. You’ve got a scope on it-- it must be accurate. For those who don't know it looks awesome. For those who do know, the REM 742 is a tip-off that the jokes need to be told slower.
2) Deer hunters like me learned to deal in paces or steps instead of yards. You called them yards, but deep inside you knew better. I once had a fellow tell me he shot a big buck at 300 yards with his 30-30 by just puttin the irons in the middle of the chest, and pullin’ the trigger. He was about 5foot-nothin. He probably had a stride that was inside of 24 inches.
3) Parallax? Shmaralax! I was told to set my scope to be dead on at 50 yards (paces) and be done with it. Anything else? Just hold onto the top of the back. If it’s too far out, the bullet goes underneath the buck’s legs.
4) Grains mean nothing. I shot mostly 180 grainers, but I bought whatever was available for years. If there were 150 grainers, they shot just as good. Don’t bother sighting in with each little change, you’ll just waste ammo. I found that 180 grain Musgrave (South African) shot well in the 742, so I bought a case of it.
Quit laughing. I’m giving history here. Y’all probably laugh at the guys who go to Walmart and buy a new deer rifle the night before the Opener and get it bore sighted by the counter monkey. No. I was never one of those. However, I did figure out one time that a bore-sighted 30-06 will probably take a deer out to 80 yards or so from a raised stand. It may sound ugly, but that’s the truth.
5) Forget paper targets with bullseyes. Just get a big reactive target and fill it with something so it goes blooey. A 5 gallon bucket with water is fine. A 2 -liter of diet Walmart Soda is cool if you want to be a sharpshooter. Now put it out at 25 yards and shoot at it until it goes blooey. Tell yourself that you’re good to go.
Remember: this is a 4 MOA rifle you’re talking about. At best you can probably keep it on a pie plate at 80 yards offhand.
6) Don’t read those stupid magazines that talk about premium ammo and all that crap. For one thing, finding that ammo on a regular basis at Walmart ain’t going to happen. Second, this is a 4 MOA rifle for chrissakes. It’s going to shoot $5 boxes of ammo just as good as $20 dollar boxes.
7) Groups are for somebody else. What I had to go for was more of a pattern. If I knew it would hit a pie-plate at a given distance, that was all I needed. I wasn’t going to get much better-- and certainly not better offhand. If you read a magazine that talks a lot about groups, they’re just telling you stuff about rifles that have nothing to do with what you have. You’re there to kill deer, not make groups.
8) The best time to find a solid 4 MOA deer rifle is at the gun show right after deer season. Everybody’s selling off their deer rifles for Christmas money. You’ll get your best deals on 4 MOA , 6 MOA and 8 MOA rifles then. Make sure you shake the rifle. You want a scope that has some rattle to it. You can get $25 or more off if you find one that rattles.
Look, I went 20+ seasons shooting this crap. Even worse, I shot a Remington 1100 12 GA with Remmie Sluggers for the first 5 years. Crap? This isn’t crap when your longest shot is nearly straight down out of a treestand. Both 30-06 and 12 GA slugs are awesome inside 10 yards, and the number of MOA's just doesn’t enter into any of it.
So how did I end up here? Just because I shot Rem 742 for a number of years, I’ve been called a booger-eating moron on this forum. Truth is, it took a lot of creativity and determination to make that rifle work. Furthermore, I came here after I started reloading in 2000, I started paying attention to those things like “grains” and “Point Blank Range” and stuff like that. It didn’t change my deer hunting all that much, at least not at first. With the way the cedar thickets grow, we’re still mostly talking short shots, but now we’re doing with much greater precision (for whatever good that does.)
The Rem 742 died from a bad case of the chatters back in 2004. As I mentioned earlier in the other thread, my son still hunts with my Win 670. I think the last doe he shot with was somewhere just outside of 5 yard's distance when he lit her up. Again, this is perfectly acceptable range for a 4 MOA rifle. Once I started reloading, I found I could get it shooting down close to 1 MOA. Angus has the camp record of shooting a deer with it at 252 yards a few years ago. My personal best is still down around 175 yards.
Most of what I know about 1 MOA rifles and reloading comes from here and shooters.com. When I started reloading, I’ll tell you that it was like a whole ‘nother world.
This is almost an exact description of my uncle. Remington 7400 30-06, see thru scope mounts with a bushnell $29 blister pack scope. I was there when he sighted it in, the target was a milk jug filled with water at about 40 yds offhand, when he finally hit it he stopped shooting and said "good enough!". A box of ammo was good for two deer, you could always tell if it was him shooting because they followed the same pattern. Five shots in rapid succession followed by about a 10 second pause and five more in rapid succession. He always made fun of me shooting handloads because I was cheap and didn't want to spend money on "the good stuff".
I had a Rem 742 30-06 in HS and College. My tune up for deer season was shooting Armadillos at 50 yards offhand. If no Armadillos were around we had those plastic gallon milk jugs. Center mass at 100 yards off a rest. Never shot groups back then.
I hunt with revolvers many times. 4 MOA is probably better then I can hold an iron-sighted revolver even when I rest both arms full length, and I have a thick pad under my shooting hand. Yet, I have always killed my game (deer, antelope, bear, elk and buffalo) with my revolvers and I have never even needed to fire twice with any revolver I ever killed a big game animal with, and only 1 time I fired 2 shots with a 45 automatic. So when I read and reread and reread all the time about 1/2 MOA and 1/4 MOA and even less at times, and how that is so much better, I grin and shake my head. It's not a matter of how accurate the gun is near as much as it's about how accurate the man is and how well he can hunt. Shaman said he learned to hunt as an archer. That means his 4 MOA rifle was just fine. I'd bet he can't hold a 4 MOA group at 100 yards with his bow and arrows, but somehow that didn't stop him from using them.
Kudos to you Shaman.
There is nothing wrong with super accurate rifles. So that's not the point I am trying to make here. I shot all my center fires today to confirm zeros and in some cases re-zero --- after I had used the rifles to test ammo I am not going to use for this years hunts. I have several that shoot sub-MOA and a few that shoot WAY Sub-MOA. But in the hands of a shooter that can hold 2 MOA any 1/8 MOA rifle gives him about 2 MOA. And a man that can shoot 2 MOA on demand with out a bench rest is a very good shot.
It's always 98% the shooter and 2% what he shoots.
Lot's of truth in your post Shaman - good for you for posting it.
I have a friend who gets his deer and elk every year, his sight-in method consists of setting our one those 5 gallon plastic buckets - he takes a shot or two at it and calls it good enough. Like he says the kill zone on big game is about the same size as the bucket so if I can hit the bucket I can kill a deer and elk.
Sometimes we overthink things - and that's a fact.
Enjoyed thet.... I was pretty much that same guy...hit a pie plate at 100 yds and go kill chit....but I did have a bolt action Springfield with a crappy old scope...killed a ton of deer tho.... After many years of the typical reloader cycle, I feel I have come full circle....I went from starting out with a 30-06 to the magnum craze to small fast stuff like 220 swift and 6-284.. I scored a sako in 30-06 that I replaced the pad with a thicker one and was amazed how well the rifle fit and aimed....after hunting with it a few years i became one of my favorites..it's never missed...not even a follow up shot... Then I picked up a custom husky in 06 here on the fire with a longer than normal stock...I went vintage with that one..mounted a Lyman 2.5 post on it...killed a nice buck at 150 yds last year...off hand...I was amazed how the post just rested on the heart and I touched it off and flop... Neither one of those rifles have been accuracy tuned with hand loads...although they bothe will shoot an inch with my standard 06 load... My son is a crack shot with a rifle...I have had him shooting since he was very young..he is 32 now...when he was about 18 he had bought a pre 64 few in 06 and was deer hunting with it...using my standard 06 loads I shoot in everything...I was blocking a timber he and his cousin was walking out...I had watche 2 coyotes from about 1/2 mile away with binoculars..when the boys came out the coyotes took off. He shot them both ..first one at 200 paces trotting second on at 250 at turbo run....before the next season he started his own reloading and was trying to work a load for that rifle and could only get about 1 1/2 out of it....he can't bring himself to hunt with it .he lost confidence in it....sad really...but he will come around....a rifle that you can hit a running coyote with at 250 yds will certenly work for deer and elk...
As usual, Shaman, good post. As you know, most of my guns are "hand-me-down " guns. They have been shot a lot, killed a lot of stuff, and to the best of my knowledge, have never been scored like some folks here do. I don't even know what a ladder test IS. I've never worked up a load, counted bullet grains, or knew the name of the powder in the cartridge. It was what was on sale, and it killed stuff just fine. I have never bedded an action, or inlet a stock, or felt the need of the Holy Grail of triggers. You learn the gun, shoot it, and sight it in. If you can hit a football at 100yds, it will kill deer.
So Shaman, what you're saying is that you had better than a 4 MOA rifle; you just couldn't shoot better than 4 MOA.
In the case of the 742, it was a solid 4 MOA rifle. I put several scopes on it over the years. Only one of them rattled, and only a little bit. I killed a bunch of deer with it, but they were all fairly close. By 2001, I was reloading, and my 165 grain handloads were considerably better than minute-of-pie-plate at 100 yards. That year, I shot a buck and a doe. My stand was on a fairly steep hill, and both deer showed up on the uphill side. I was shooting straight out at less than 15 yards and both deer managed to run towards the ladder before succumbing. This is an ideal situation for a 4 MOA rifle to shine. Why mess with perfection?
The WIN 670 was a 1-2 MOA rifle in disguise. If you're in the situation I found myself, it's a little like trying to watch a porn channel without the decoder box. All the parts are there, they're just scattered on the screen. Nothing is like it is in the magazines. Changing factory loads never did anything but move the pattern around on the paper. What made that rifle shine was a beginning load of H4895 under Hornady 165 IL SP's. I've since found that 150 grain Rem Corelokt PSP's work just as well. That's what my son shoots. However, I bought the rifle in 1989 and didn't start reloading until 2000. There was more than a decade there where that rifle shot nothing but groundhogs.
The difference between this rifle and the Rem 742 in actual practice was that instead of climbing a tree and shooting them at 15 yards, I could now sit in my blind and enjoy the luxury of waiting until that exact moment when they approach closest to that one magical place in the pasture 150 yards out with a little fold in the landscape. This is where I can drop them, roll the truck up, and load them in the back without lifting them up to the tailgate.
I must have missed some sort of mud-flinging on another thread but I found shamans post funny. And true. I grew up hunting in Pa in the 1970s. The Amish Machine Gun reigned supreme (Remmie 760). I'd swag about 50% had see through mounts and some kind of high end Bushnell affixed to the receiver. There was still a bunch of mil surplus 7by57 running around in various stages of 'sporterization'. Even a fair share of 30-30/32 win levers. Somehow those guys killed a [bleep] of deer.
I was spoiled. My first deer rifle was a Rem 600 Mohawk in 243. It had a top end Tasco on top but no see through sights. We cut the stock down and the rifle fit me pretty well. Well enough to kill a deer my first several years. It was 'stupid accurate' at a solid 1.25 inch gun with my hand loads. Yep, we hand loaded to save money but did learn how to tune loads to the rifle.
The distances shaman mention are spot on. My first deer was 75 paces across a little opening. One 100 gr Hornady high shoulder shot was all it took. I've shot alot of deer that filled a 4x scope with brown fur. Shooting one almost straight down is a bit harder than it would seem.
I still have that old Mohawk. It's been the family kid-gun since about 1982 or so. It has killed several truckloads of deer. It needs a new barrel but I cant bring myself to do it. Same with my next rifle Ruger tanger 77 in 280. Still have that one too. It struggles to hold a 2" group but has killed more than few critters. I cant bring myself to re-barrel that one either. Both rifles are semi-retired. I pick them up often and think about the memories that come with them.
After reading the responses on the thread about current rifle accuracy, I was moved to write this, but I didn't want to go off on a stray tangent on that thread, so I though I'd start another.
It would seem that, for a change, I am the ultimate expert on a subject on this august forum. It would also seem that a lot of the folks on here must have been living in a parallel universe to the one I was experiencing back in the 1980’s. In their world 4 MOA rifles weren’t acceptable. In mine, they were quite common. Not only that, we accepted them and we used them to kill things. I suppose it could be said that just about anyone can make a 1 MOA rifle work. However, it takes a certain genius to turn a 4 MOA tomato stake into a legitimate deer killer.
I got a used Rem 742 in 30-06 back in the early 80’s. With Remmie Corelokts, it was a solid 4 MOA rifle. It didn’t matter much. I was a bow hunter who spent rifle season in his deer stands. It was hard seeing past 50 yards, let alone shoot anything. I later added a WIN 670 in 30-06. It wasn’t all that accurate as a deer rifle, but it shot 30-06 Accelerators well, and so it became my groundhog gun. I called it “The Vaporizer,” because it would turn a woodchuck into a cloud of mist.
So how does one cope with a 4 MOA rifle?
1) To the rest of the world, you lie a lot. To yourself, you know your limits and you stick with them. You’ve got a scope on it-- it must be accurate. For those who don't know it looks awesome. For those who do know, the REM 742 is a tip-off that the jokes need to be told slower.
2) Deer hunters like me learned to deal in paces or steps instead of yards. You called them yards, but deep inside you knew better. I once had a fellow tell me he shot a big buck at 300 yards with his 30-30 by just puttin the irons in the middle of the chest, and pullin’ the trigger. He was about 5foot-nothin. He probably had a stride that was inside of 24 inches.
3) Parallax? Shmaralax! I was told to set my scope to be dead on at 50 yards (paces) and be done with it. Anything else? Just hold onto the top of the back. If it’s too far out, the bullet goes underneath the buck’s legs.
4) Grains mean nothing. I shot mostly 180 grainers, but I bought whatever was available for years. If there were 150 grainers, they shot just as good. Don’t bother sighting in with each little change, you’ll just waste ammo. I found that 180 grain Musgrave (South African) shot well in the 742, so I bought a case of it.
Quit laughing. I’m giving history here. Y’all probably laugh at the guys who go to Walmart and buy a new deer rifle the night before the Opener and get it bore sighted by the counter monkey. No. I was never one of those. However, I did figure out one time that a bore-sighted 30-06 will probably take a deer out to 80 yards or so from a raised stand. It may sound ugly, but that’s the truth.
5) Forget paper targets with bullseyes. Just get a big reactive target and fill it with something so it goes blooey. A 5 gallon bucket with water is fine. A 2 -liter of diet Walmart Soda is cool if you want to be a sharpshooter. Now put it out at 25 yards and shoot at it until it goes blooey. Tell yourself that you’re good to go.
Remember: this is a 4 MOA rifle you’re talking about. At best you can probably keep it on a pie plate at 80 yards offhand.
6) Don’t read those stupid magazines that talk about premium ammo and all that crap. For one thing, finding that ammo on a regular basis at Walmart ain’t going to happen. Second, this is a 4 MOA rifle for chrissakes. It’s going to shoot $5 boxes of ammo just as good as $20 dollar boxes.
7) Groups are for somebody else. What I had to go for was more of a pattern. If I knew it would hit a pie-plate at a given distance, that was all I needed. I wasn’t going to get much better-- and certainly not better offhand. If you read a magazine that talks a lot about groups, they’re just telling you stuff about rifles that have nothing to do with what you have. You’re there to kill deer, not make groups.
8) The best time to find a solid 4 MOA deer rifle is at the gun show right after deer season. Everybody’s selling off their deer rifles for Christmas money. You’ll get your best deals on 4 MOA , 6 MOA and 8 MOA rifles then. Make sure you shake the rifle. You want a scope that has some rattle to it. You can get $25 or more off if you find one that rattles.
Look, I went 20+ seasons shooting this crap. Even worse, I shot a Remington 1100 12 GA with Remmie Sluggers for the first 5 years. Crap? This isn’t crap when your longest shot is nearly straight down out of a treestand. Both 30-06 and 12 GA slugs are awesome inside 10 yards, and the number of MOA's just doesn’t enter into any of it.
So how did I end up here? Just because I shot Rem 742 for a number of years, I’ve been called a booger-eating moron on this forum. Truth is, it took a lot of creativity and determination to make that rifle work. Furthermore, I came here after I started reloading in 2000, I started paying attention to those things like “grains” and “Point Blank Range” and stuff like that. It didn’t change my deer hunting all that much, at least not at first. With the way the cedar thickets grow, we’re still mostly talking short shots, but now we’re doing with much greater precision (for whatever good that does.)
The Rem 742 died from a bad case of the chatters back in 2004. As I mentioned earlier in the other thread, my son still hunts with my Win 670. I think the last doe he shot with was somewhere just outside of 5 yard's distance when he lit her up. Again, this is perfectly acceptable range for a 4 MOA rifle. Once I started reloading, I found I could get it shooting down close to 1 MOA. Angus has the camp record of shooting a deer with it at 252 yards a few years ago. My personal best is still down around 175 yards.
Most of what I know about 1 MOA rifles and reloading comes from here and shooters.com. When I started reloading, I’ll tell you that it was like a whole ‘nother world.
Ballistic Data ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect 0 yds -2.00 in 2600 fps 2702 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -2.00 in 0.00 in 25 yds -0.84 in 2550 fps 2599 fpe 0.029 sec 0.16 in -0.76 in 0.04 in 50 yds -0.00 in 2501 fps 2499 fpe 0.059 sec 0.65 in -0.63 in 0.15 in 75 yds 0.49 in 2452 fps 2402 fpe 0.089 sec 1.49 in -0.42 in 0.40 in 100 yds 0.62 in 2403 fps 2308 fpe 0.120 sec 2.69 in -0.11 in 0.73 in 125 yds 0.37 in 2356 fps 2218 fpe 0.151 sec 4.26 in 0.31 in 1.20 in 150 yds -0.28 in 2308 fps 2130 fpe 0.183 sec 6.24 in 0.83 in 1.80 in 175 yds -1.34 in 2262 fps 2044 fpe 0.216 sec 8.62 in 1.47 in 2.53 in 200 yds -2.83 in 2216 fps 1962 fpe 0.250 sec 11.44 in 2.24 in 3.38 in 225 yds -4.76 in 2170 fps 1882 fpe 0.284 sec 14.70 in 3.13 in 4.35 in 250 yds -7.16 in 2125 fps 1804 fpe 0.319 sec 18.42 in 4.16 in 5.43 in 275 yds -10.01 in 2080 fps 1729 fpe 0.355 sec 22.61 in 5.32 in 6.62 in 300 yds -13.35 in 2036 fps 1657 fpe 0.391 sec 27.27 in 6.64 in 7.93 in
What I find fascinating is that you're only .62 inches high at 100 yards. With a 4 MOA rifle, you'd think you were dead-on. At 250 yards, you're only a sconce over 7 inches low. Now, think of that: you're in the woods, and through a miracle, you see the buck of a lifetime out in a field at some unknown distance. If you aim at the top of his back and let loose, you've got half a chance of hitting him. What's more, if he's way too far out, say over 300 yards, the bullet is going to pass under his body. I'm not recommending any of this. I'm just saying that this how you look at things with a 4 MOA rifle. The truth of it is that, unless you support the shot against a tree or a fencepost, that 300-yard shot is going to be coming nowhere near that buck and at 300 yards, that 4 MOA rifle is shooting a pattern that's bigger than the buck's chest. I was never faced with exactly that situation. However, I did pass on a nice buck once that I judged to be 90 yards out and I was carrying my Rem 1100 that I knew was only good out to 50 yards. I stepped off the actual distance on my way out. It was more like 150 yards. I'm still patting myself on the back for that show of restraint.
I experimented with the WIN 670 back in 2004. I was coming out at last light and saw a herd of doe on a hillside at some distance that I now know to be over 400 yards. I was handloading by then. I knew the rifle was good to 1-2 MOA, and I knew there was no way in hell I was going to hit anything. I braced myself against a big tree and took a shot at the closest doe with the crosshairs centered on her chest. I was able to pick out the bullet, a good 7 feet low, puffing up dirt well down the hill. I got to empty the mag before the deer realized something was up and took off.
I have noticed that a lot of the guys who have 4 MOA rifles spend time at the range after missing a deer on opening morning. Ironic to see them trying to figure out why they missed. Usually the blister pack scope was off by a foot or more and was usually loose in the mounts. Never figured how that how that happened, It was fine at the end of the season and hadn't been shot since.
I knew a guy who had a new deer rifle every season. After his current deer rifle failed him (it was never him that failed) he sold the rifle at a loss and bought something else. Then he would spend the spring and summer telling you about the merits of his new rifle. When deer season arrived, he would fail again and repeat this same process. It was very comedic.
Never found a 4 MOA gun, I'm jealous. Had a pistol that came close once, sorry I sold it.
Shaman, what made you put glass on a 4 MOA rifle?
Oh! That's easy. My eyes are bad. I was probably okay shooting irons back then, but a scope made things easier. The first scope I had on the REM 742, the one it came with was a 1.5-4.5X30 Bushnell Banner. I still have it, but I mounted on a Ruger 10/22 30 some years ago. The second scope was a $29 Simmons 3-9X30 that I moved to my Savage 99 for over a decade. Both the Rem 742 and the Savage 99 had Weaver Swivel Mounts so that I could go to the irons if necessary. I was never a big fan of see-thru mounts.
When I started to get more into this whole accuracy thing from reading 24hourcampfire.com, I realized the Swivel Mounts might not be such a hot idea. I swapped out the swivel mounts and the Simmons scope on the Savage 99 just a few years ago. With a Leupold STD mount and an $80 Bushnell scope, that Savage 99 that never was much to speak of accuracy wise suddenly perked up. It's now down to 1-2 MOA range. Whodathunk?
To answer in a more general sense: if you have a 4 MOA rifle, you do everything you can to appear to be on top of things. You need plausible deniability. Your friends are going to rag on you if you miss the big one and you are just shooting over irons. If you have an honest 4 MOA deer rifle, you mount a 30mm scope. If you have a 6-8 MOA rifle, you mount a 40 or 50 mm scope and you get something that you can crank down to 20X so everything looks really, really blurry. That way, when your friends look through it, they see nothing, and they think you're a god for being able to hit anything. When you go hunting, you crank it to 3X so you can actually see.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that Amazon is a great place to find scopes for a 4 MOA deer rifle. You want to get one made with a deceitively familiar name. Borris, Lerpold, Bushnelli, and Nickor are ideal for this kind of situation.
Funny thing. I decided to use up all the rejects from load development for my .308. About 25 rounds, all poorly accurate, velocities varying 2-300 FPS, POI all over the place. Rather than pull the bullets I took them out and shot them at my steel gong at 200 yards. Funny thing is I hit the gong most every time, just like I do with my ultaconsistent 3/4 moa hand loads.
Leon wrote "I have noticed that a lot of the guys who have 4 MOA rifles spend time at the range after missing a deer on opening morning. Ironic to see them trying to figure out why they missed. Usually the blister pack scope was off by a foot or more and was usually loose in the mounts. Never figured how that how that happened, It was fine at the end of the season and hadn't been shot since."
As I said above, it's 98% the hunter and 2% the gear.
If indeed the scope is off by a large amount, you can't blame the gear at all. You could have a USMC M40-A5 with the finest optic on earth mounted and off-zero by a foot or more on loose mounts and have the same results. A lack of attention is a lack of attention. A man who doesn't practice can have such poorly mated scopes or sights and not know it because he is not involved in ANY degree of self-training.
I often hunt with iron sighted rifles and when I used handguns, they are mostly 100% stock with the exception of me doing "smooth and tunes" when I feel the need. I also hunt with flintlocks in both 50 and 62 calibers with 1770 era sights. I have never fired a shot with any handgun at any game that I have not killed, and I can say the same thing with all my muzzle-loaders. With revolvers and with muzzle-loaders I have been hunting on and off for over 50 years and all the misses I have ever made in my life, and every animal I have ever needed 2 shots with have been shot with scoped rifles (with one excepting where I killed a deer with a 45 ACP that I shot 2 times) And ALL of the times I ever missed with a scoped rifle were with guns and scopes that were just fine but one. That one was 3 years ago when the eyepiece on a Burris cracked at the threads and was moving around enough to cause misses at 100 yards of about 4 feet. I assume I cracked it riding in the back of a 4Wheeler I was riding in. (Burris sent me a new scope of a higher value in 1 week. I was impressed with their service)
I have hunted and killed game with a smooth bore 62 caliber French style flintlock and killed deer just fine.
Just 2 weeks ago, (on the 16th of August) I killed an antelope with a neck shot from an iron sighted 6.5X54 Mannlicher which I spotted from about 1/2 mile and did a stalk to within 20 yards. (yes -- twenty)
But I HUNT and I am very very often putting my belt buckle in the dirt. I seldom go hunting and don't bring back the game. I get skunked at times, but not all that often.
I own about 15 rifles that will shoot MOA and of them about 1/3 will shoot under half MOA. I own 2 that shoot at about 1/4 MOA. Such accuracy is important to the target shooter and also to the prairie dog shooter. But for deer and larger game, it's a good confidence builder, but truly not all that important. One of my 30-06s, a "Scout" style Mauser, shoots about 1.3MOA on demand, and another, my Browning M95 Lever action has issue buck-horns and a 1/16" bead and I don't know exactly what it will do. Now I am in my 60s. I can shoot over a rest with the lever action and keep them into about 2.5 -3 MOA. But I can say at I can hit what I shoot at with both of them. I have never fired a shot with the Scout at any big game over 450 yards, and the longest shot I ever made with my M95 30-06 is about 300 yards. Yet those two 30-06s have perfect "track-records" so far, in that I have never fired a shot at game with either one that I have not killed, and I have never fired a 2nd shot at any game with either one. I am batting 1000 with them both, and have been for the 30+ years I have owned them.
In contrast, I own a 270 on a Mauser I made myself and it shoots under 1/2 MOA so often it's gotten boring. I did it yesterday when I was shooting all my rifles to confirm zeros. Yet I have misses 2 deer with that rifle. Why? Because I missed the deer........that's why. I fell for the notion "It's so accurate I just can't miss". Ummmmmmmmmm Yeah I can! I have learned that when the man fails, the gun will cooperate------ 100% of the time.
A good hunter will bring home the game because he can HUNT. When I hunt with a smooth bore flintlock ,or when I hunt with a handgun, I get close. That's why it's called hunting. And if you can hunt you will find that getting into range with a high accuracy scoped rifle is the same hunting techniques you use if you carry a bow and arrow or a stock revolver. But when I get a 100 yard shot with the 270 I named above there is NO doubt I am going to kill the elk, deer or antelope with that rifle as long as I don't rush and get sloppy (See if you can just take a wild guess as to how I would know that)
So again I beat the drum. It's the man......not the gun. A good hunter hunts within his abilities no mater what he is carrying at the time.
Shaman, I tend to agree with your comments, provided that the ranges are kept within the capabilities of the rifles and shooters ability to keep shots in the animals kill zone. I want to get my rifle to group as good as it is capable of, and adjust my range accordingly. My capabilities, must also be factored in. If I follow my own stipulations, and I miss, it is totally on me.....not the rifle/load. As szihn stated, using his handgun analogy.....the hunter should stay within the capabilities of the firearm/shooter. If that capability is “only” 25 yards.....so be it! memtb
Well said Shaman. But the internet benchresters don't want to hear reality. Also we might consider, two world wars were were fought with 4 moa rifles (and ammunition).
I too learned to hunt in Archery season and because of that I generally hunt places where my shots are inside of 50 yards making MOA accuracy relatively unimportant to me.
I used a 4 MOA rifle for many years in the Northern Minnesota woods. My first deer rifle, a 98K Mauser BCD with it's original 8mm barrel. The lead looks like a sewer pipe from corrosive ammo I guess. Redfield peep site. My mentor growing up told me if I could keep a shoot offhand on a dinner plate at 100 yards I would have no trouble getting deer. He was right. Still have the rifle, and for deep woods hunting I would have no issues using it today even though I have several other rifles that are MOA.
It amazes me the amount of guys who would rather let some else sight in their rifle rather than do it themselves. I know a guy who bought a Ruger #1 with gorgeous factory wood many years ago but the accuracy is horrible. He wont get rid of it because of the wood, but on the other hand he never hunts with it anyway
After reading the responses on the thread about current rifle accuracy, I was moved to write this, but I didn't want to go off on a stray tangent on that thread, so I though I'd start another.
Jezoos Christie, are you sensitive. I wasn't even arguing with you. Get a life.
Jezoos Christie, are you sensitive. I wasn't even arguing with you. Get a life.
Oh, goodness no! I was not put off in the least by what you wrote. My reason for writing was that if folks are forgetting what a 4 MOA rifle is to the point where guys are saying that they were never acceptable, then we are losing a part of our history. In another generation, everyone will be wondering what the f*#% all the hoo-haw was about. If everyone can pop down to Wally World and buy a sub-MOA rifle that shoots flat out to 1000 yards with factory ammo, they'll look back on us think we were daft for bedding our stocks and annealing our brass and will think a $50 trigger job was something you did with a prostitute. We need to preserve this history or else we'll lose it.
I envision one day a living history deer camp, where the youth of tomorrow can learn about these things. I'd love to a part of it-- dressed in my Jones hat and wearing LL Bean boots, giving lessons on how to tell kids the correct way to explain a muffed shot. . .
My favorite rifle for elk hunting is about 3 MOA. It's an open-sighted muzzleloader and the only reason it's my favorite is because I can hunt elk with it in September during the rut. Can't do that here with a centerfire rifle or a scope.
When I lived back east and hunted whitetails in the hardwoods I did fine with a .30-30 that was only slightly more accurate. Shots over 100 yards were very rare so 3 MOA was fine.
But it's entirely different out west. I've made a few shots I wouldn't even attempt with a four MOA rifle, lots of chances for long shots out west.
Re simple "just good enough" rifles and sights, and "one box of ammo is good for two seasons, no need to waste it practicing", the tellers of hunting tales will brag about how many deer they killed, never mention how many got away wounded.
Re simple "just good enough" rifles and sights, and "one box of ammo is good for two seasons, no need to waste it practicing", the tellers of hunting tales will brag about how many deer they killed, never mention how many got away wounded.
Six of one half a dozen of the other. Seen guys with half minute rifles who shoot lots wound/lose critters at long distance from prone with bipods, rests, range finders and spotter assistants. Brag about how many deer they killed, never mention how many got away wounded.
Shoot at what you can hit, don't care if it is a 4 minute rifle or one that shoots 1/4" all day long. Know your limitations.
Shaman, I couldn't help but laugh while reading your post. My B-I-L was 13 years old when I married his sister and he was the little brother that I never had. He started deer hunting not long after that with an old 742 that MAY have been a 4 MOA rifle. His zeroing technique was to shoot at an empty coke can laying on the ground anywhere from 25 to 40 yards away....while leaning over the hood of his truck. If the can moved at the shot, he was good to go. Despite this, he was, and still is, the most prolific deer killer I have ever been around. If he spots a deer, it is dead.
About 25 years ago(I've been hunting with him for 50 years now), I gave him a 308 bolt action because the 742 finally shot to pieces. It is a good rifle capable of 1 to 1.5 MOA, but I can't see any appreciable difference in his deer killing prowess. When you seldom miss with a 4 MOA rifle, how much better can you do with a more accurate rifle?
Re simple "just good enough" rifles and sights, and "one box of ammo is good for two seasons, no need to waste it practicing", the tellers of hunting tales will brag about how many deer they killed, never mention how many got away wounded.
Six of one half a dozen of the other. Seen guys with half minute rifles who shoot lots wound/lose critters at long distance from prone with bipods, rests, range finders and spotter assistants. Brag about how many deer they killed, never mention how many got away wounded.
Shoot at what you can hit, don't care if it is a 4 minute rifle or one that shoots 1/4" all day long. Know your limitations.
That's the truth. Know your limitations, and practice realistically. Many more rounds are fired from the bench than from field positions. Heck, I've seen ranges with benches crammed so densely that there really isn't room to shoot unsupported.
Sounded just like my life back in the mid 70s shaman! East Tx, never shot a deer past 60yds with an old Mod 742 30-06 I "bought" from my uncle. he was in a financial bind and asked me if I knew anyone who would give him $85 for it ( 1974). I told him I would and later one he could buy it back. We didn't use scopes then, but as a vet I knew about irons. at 100yds it would shoot 5-6"! I killed several deer/hogs with it and later on when we had access to Federal "Red Box" ammo with Sierra 165 SBT it became a "bonafide" 4 MOA! I still killed game up from 15yds to 60yds though, ha. My 30-30 Mod 94 had made my longest shot up til then, 90yds. it was a 3-4 MOA. The rest were 10-20 yds.
Many a Marine shot "Expert" (out to 500 Meters) with an M14 that was "required" to be at least a 4 MOA shooter! Killing/hurting Commies is different, I know, but one can do well if they "hunker down", ha. I enjoyed you post!!
One of my friends shoots the same 30-06 Ruger he's had forever. If you asked him about MOA he'd have no idea what you were saying. I know his rifle is capable of far better than 4 MOA as I've worked up his hunting load for him But he doesn't know and doesn't care what an MOA is and if his rifle is capable of 1 or 100 MOA. He confidently goes out and kills his caribou every year, generally with one shot, comes home and puts the rifle back under the bed until next season. To him it's just a tool.
I'll be honest. In a lot of ways, my experiences deer hunting with 4MOA rifles were possibly better than as they are now with my current crop of rifles that are all shooting nice tight groups. They're certainly different.
For one thing, hunting with a deer sprayer forced me to stick to sure-bet venues where all my shots were at knife-fight ranges. There is a special zing that comes from not only the close range-- there's a special cold-bloodedness to it all. I'm now filling at least one of my tags at 150-175 yards. It just isn't the same.
I've all but sworn off my Ruger Hawkeye in 30-06 for at least this season. The reason is that I've got dozen or more deer rifle projects-- some going back to 2014, some longer, that I haven't been able to prove out simply because I've had such a consistent venison maker. A few years ago, I caught myself calling for the truck even before I'd check to see if the deer was down. I'd shot it in the last minute of legal hunting with the Hawkeye, and the blast had blinded me. I was so confident I'd dropped the deer in her tracks, I didn't get out and check.
30 years ago, I'd have sweated bullets until I'd gotten down from the stand and found the deer. In this case, I waited for the truck and then drove out to the approximate location, and there she was.
I gotta say: if I could find rifle ammo for $5 a box that went bang every time, I doubt I would handload. I killed a lot of stuff when I was young with crap factory ammo. Nothing I killed was beyond 200 yds, but most of it was well short of 50 yds. As long as it went bang, I could hunt that crap and be successful, even in the broad canyons and old burns I hunt much of the time.
The one thing that has changed for me when hunting with a sub-moa rifle is, unless I felt the shot was bad (a little too far back, etc.) I feel a lot more confident about where I'll find entrance/exit holes.
I drastically improved the accuracy of my Model 94 Winchester with peep sights, but it's still an open sighted .30-30 lever action carbine, so like you mentioned, I'll limit where I hunt with it.
I love to hunt with it and my Guide gun, which I just (re)install the peeps on and zeroed. Gonna hunt the thick stuff...
I gotta say: if I could find rifle ammo for $5 a box that went bang every time, I doubt I would handload. I killed a lot of stuff when I was young with crap factory ammo. Nothing I killed was beyond 200 yds, but most of it was well short of 50 yds. As long as it went bang, I could hunt that crap and be successful, even in the broad canyons and old burns I hunt much of the time.
Yep, and during my teens, I didn't bother to check zero if I changed brands, weights, whatevers with my .30-30 ammo, just pace off 50 yards, shoot a beer can, then proclaim the rifle is ready!
I can see how people might have grown up on your planet, and perhaps didn't entirely need a rifle that would shoot better than 4 moa, or expect one. When everything around you is also a 4 moa rifle, then you might not even really know that you could have something better. When zeroing consists of pegging away at a rock or beercan at close range and calling it good if a shot hits, then no doubt a 4 moa rifle's as good as any better one. And if your hunting terrain and techniques match, such as potting deer wandering past or beneath your stand, then it would make no difference to your success.
FWIW there were some aspects of that world in my youth. For example, surplus rifles were cheap and often used for pigshooting. They suited this well, as pigs were available by the truckload, often in thick stuff, and a rifle might need to withstand being dropped in mud and knocked around.
No one considered 4 moa especially accurate though, and the cheap pig rifle was a bit of a special case, with many more accurate rifles being sold here. You'd see the ads for $35 Carcanos and SMLES, but the gunshops would have racks and racks of scoped bolt-actions too: Remingtons, Rugers, Winchesters, Brnos, BSAs, and also a fair number of fancier ones. I remember a time when there were about half a dozen gunshops along George St in Sydney, back in the 70s, and you could have a nice day out walking from one to another and admiring them. If you had the money you'd say "yeah, I'll have that one", and walk out with it. People wanting to hunt deer, or to reach out across teh paddock and headshoot roos, or goats, wanted something a good deal better than 4 moa. Even back then, as I recall, 1 moa was the yardstick for an accurate rifle
FWIW in the late 70s I was using a .22 for rabbits and foxes and the like which would shoot 5 rounds into 1/2" at 50 yards - good enough for me to win the odd prize in field rifle competition. I had a couple of surplus rifles, including a 7 mm Mauser 1895 and a .30/06 Colombian, and then got a job with a gunsmith where I built a sporterised No 4 .303. All of these would easily beat 4 moa by a large margin, the No 4 shooting into about 1 1/2" at 100 yards ( once shot a 5" group at 500 yards with it, but that was a bit of a fluke). I then bought a Rem 700 BDL with a Weaver K6, which put the first two 5 round groups (factory ammo, which came with the rifle) into an inch each at 100, and proceeded to reach out to various game from rabbits to deer with it. .
There was never any of the "shoot at a rock and call it good" either. My family were pretty keen, and so we'd do plenty of practice. We had an informal range on the farm, and as well as that I, like my father, would go to the rifle clubs. My mother's side of the family also liked shooting. They were Swiss, and used to practice with an air pistol in the hallway, and because of them I joined a Swiss rifle club locally, and used to go to the annual Schuetzenfest. I used to do quite a lot of competition, both with them, fullbore (long range), field rifle (hunting rifles), and with cadets. As well as hunting rifles, I had match rifles too, which would shoot a good deal better than 1 moa - I had rifles which would shoot moa-sized groups from prone with a tight sling, unsupported. We'd always check zero - on paper - before hunting too.
This was the world I grew up in. Like "4 moa world" I have no doubt that it wasn't universal, even here.
Thanks Shaman that was interesting! Just thought I'd add a few thoughts. First of all if your rifle is properly zeroed a 4" group is never more than 2" from the point you aim for. 2" high plus 2" low equals 4" correct but each shot is only 2" from the center.
I would also like to add that most hunters who believe they have a 1 moa rifle in reality have closer to a 2 possibly 3 moa rifle in some cases. The reason is because though the rifle might shoot a 1" group fairly often many rifles tend to change point of impact for several reasons. One reason is that some barrels in fact most IME change point of impact slightly at different stages of the barrel fouling. Another reason is because not every load is optimum for temp resistant/ changes in weather. There is also mirage to deal with that some days can move your group an inch right or left. The truth is when you start to add all these variables up a rifle that shoots a 1" group on Saturday probably shoots a 3" group if you shot at the same exact target 3 times a day for 3 months without taking the target down. Personally I consider that to be far more realistic as to how a rifle is going to perform when being used out hunting rather than a one day target session. JMO
I grew up reloading and varmint hunting.....and yeah....ive had two plus 4 MOA rifles.
A 94 Bigbore in .307 bought new. And a minty 742 carbine. 742 would cold barrel put the first shot 1" high at 100 honest yards LoL.....but the next few from the now hot bbl into a 1.5" group,.........seven or eight inches lower than the cold bbl first shot
It was repeatable.
Oddly.....the two beater 742 regulars i bought later were 1-2 moa with no heat wander.
I guess theres a pretty good explanation of why they were worn and my carbine was minty LOL.
The 94 BB was a lemon. Buddy thought he could figure it out. We made a trade w full disclosure. He said he spent a fair bit of time reloading for it.......to no avail.
He sold/traded the turd.
Ive only had really those two bad rifles.....out of a couple dozen. My next proly be a piece of crap now that Ive jinxed myself.
Current deer battery is a 700 ADL synth .243 thats had minor stock tweaks.....does .75 w cheap WW 80 gr. Is my yote rig too.
760 in 35 rem that last check w 4x did 1.5" at 100. Yup....not sub MOA. Dont care. Its good enough. It cloverleafs at 50 for me so can thread the needle in the thicket.
Then theres my new Steyr Prohunter. Bought some Federal fusion to try in it this weekend. Will also try WW and Remington .....all three in 150s. Dont think even a 200 lb dressed buck needs a 180 around here. My max shot due to property lines is 250.
After reading this I don’t think you had a clue how well your rifle shot and occasionally you shot good enough to be a 4 MOA shooter. Somewhere between then and after you started reloading, you became a better shot.
After reading this I don’t think you had a clue how well your rifle shot and occasionally you shot good enough to be a 4 MOA shooter. Somewhere between then and after you started reloading, you became a better shot.
You have a very good point there. As I said, the 742 was always a bit of a sprayer. Even with reloads, it never came to heel, but the groups got tighter. The Winchester 670 responded quickly to being fed the right stuff. It went from being a blaster to a real rifle. That was the rifle that really convinced me to start shooting regularly at 100 yards.
How good a shot was I back then? I was quite passable with a 22. I was at least good enough to realize something was wrong with the deer rifles. However, I never much shot them past 50 yards, because I didn't need to. Therein lies the nut of all this: If you hunted deer in our corner of the world, a slug shotgun was your benchmark. A treestand on the edge of cedar thicket was your view of the woods.
I'll tell you another thing that was a huge influence. Back when I started in the early 80's, it was hard to find a range. The closest public range was an hour up the road. I joined a club, but that was still close to an hour from work. I might have an hour or less of shooting before dark. When I'd go on the weekends, the rifle range was crowded. After I got my farm in 2001, I could shoot off the front porch up to 500 yards and not be bothered. However, until I had that opportunity, I really didn't think seriously of firing at more than 50 yards. That's all part of living on this planet where a 4 MOA rifle makes sense.
Was it the rifle? The shooter? The loads? The setup? Yes, one of those will do nicely.
It's funny that this is all coming up, because I inherited my buddy Bob's Ruger Model 44 Carbine back in the spring. I'm getting it ready to hunt it this fall. It's by no means a tack driver, but I put an old Aimpoint (a leftover from another dead friend) on it and I'm going to hunt the cedar thickets. This is going to be a real back-to-my-roots kind of season.
Thanks Shaman that was interesting! Just thought I'd add a few thoughts. First of all if your rifle is properly zeroed a 4" group is never more than 2" from the point you aim for. 2" high plus 2" low equals 4" correct but each shot is only 2" from the center.
I would also like to add that most hunters who believe they have a 1 moa rifle in reality have closer to a 2 possibly 3 moa rifle in some cases. The reason is because though the rifle might shoot a 1" group fairly often many rifles tend to change point of impact for several reasons. One reason is that some barrels in fact most IME change point of impact slightly at different stages of the barrel fouling. Another reason is because not every load is optimum for temp resistant/ changes in weather. There is also mirage to deal with that some days can move your group an inch right or left. The truth is when you start to add all these variables up a rifle that shoots a 1" group on Saturday probably shoots a 3" group if you shot at the same exact target 3 times a day for 3 months without taking the target down. Personally I consider that to be far more realistic as to how a rifle is going to perform when being used out hunting rather than a one day target session. JMO
Trystan
That's right, but "properly zeroed" was another one of the impossible dreams. I'd fire half a box of ammo at a target, and then squint a lot. Is it dead on? Is it 2 inches high? F#@#$ if I know. What I did know was that if I shot another half-a-box, I'd have to go back to Walmart and get another box. It seemed a little useless to ponder when I knew that my next deer might be 10 feet down and 10 feet out when I shot.
When I got my Ruger Hawkeye back in 2014, I took it out and shot a 1" group at 100 yards, the first time. Zowie! That made things SOOOOO much easier.
Thanks Shaman that was interesting! Just thought I'd add a few thoughts. First of all if your rifle is properly zeroed a 4" group is never more than 2" from the point you aim for. 2" high plus 2" low equals 4" correct but each shot is only 2" from the center.
I would also like to add that most hunters who believe they have a 1 moa rifle in reality have closer to a 2 possibly 3 moa rifle in some cases. The reason is because though the rifle might shoot a 1" group fairly often many rifles tend to change point of impact for several reasons. One reason is that some barrels in fact most IME change point of impact slightly at different stages of the barrel fouling. Another reason is because not every load is optimum for temp resistant/ changes in weather. There is also mirage to deal with that some days can move your group an inch right or left. The truth is when you start to add all these variables up a rifle that shoots a 1" group on Saturday probably shoots a 3" group if you shot at the same exact target 3 times a day for 3 months without taking the target down. Personally I consider that to be far more realistic as to how a rifle is going to perform when being used out hunting rather than a one day target session. JMO
Trystan
That's right, but "properly zeroed" was another one of the impossible dreams. I'd fire half a box of ammo at a target, and then squint a lot. Is it dead on? Is it 2 inches high? F#@#$ if I know. What I did know was that if I shot another half-a-box, I'd have to go back to Walmart and get another box. It seemed a little useless to ponder when I knew that my next deer might be 10 feet down and 10 feet out when I shot.
When I got my Ruger Hawkeye back in 2014, I took it out and shot a 1" group at 100 yards, the first time. Zowie! That made things SOOOOO much easier.
Lol, the good old days when people used to just kill game and put them in the freezer seems to be over. Again I really enjoyed your thread!
PS: I would imagine the Ruger Hawkeye killed, gutted, and deboned all critters with a single shot 😁
Interesting conversation I had about 20 years ago with a friend who had just come back from Raton where both he and his daughter won big in the Silhouette championships. I asked him exactly what the accuracy parameter would be for a competitive rifle there. He said flat out" if you have a rifle that will hold 1.5 MOA you have the potential to win all the marbles at Raton"! "WAITAMINIT??!! 1.5 MOA? Really?" "Yup, the biggest variable is the nut behind the bolt" When you figure that 1.5MOA circle will fit into the center of the various silhouettes it makes sense. As far as a 4 MOA rifle goes, 8" is generally considered lethal vital area on an Alberta white tail, so that also makes sense. Cat
I had 3 main influences when I got into deer hunting, Jerry, Bob, and John. They acted the roll of crazy uncle in my late adolescence and early adulthood. A young man needs a crazy uncle in his life-- someone to talk to when bringing such things to your father would not be wise. Dad had been a champion trapshooter, but his last experience with a rifle was in the Battle of Fort Sill in late 1944. He said the armadillos sounded just like Japanese.
Bob had been a gun editor for a magazine. He was friends with Bill Ruger and Elmer Keith Jerry had been an armorer in the Marines. He had owned a gun store. John had been in The Bulge.
Jerry and Bob were the guys who goaded me into shooting. John found me places to hunt and camp. Most of what I learned about hunting and shooting in the first decade came from them. Bob was mostly a shotgun and pistol guy. Jerry was into full-auto and military stuff. John was mostly into camping
The main things I learned from them were:
30-06-- once and forever. If you can keep it on a pie plate, you're good to kill deer Find ammo your gun likes and stockpile it Shoot, and keep shooting until you're sure it won't shoot back. Find a campsite nearest the bathroom
The latter two was John's addition. John's experience north of the Ardenne colored a lot of his advice-- that and his weak bladder.
The rest? I was pretty much on my own, and frankly, I didn't much mind the first 20 years. Jerry and John were both dead when I bought my first rifle that wasn't a 22 or a 30-06. It was a Ruger Mini 14, and the main reason I bought it was that my contacts through John had offered me some opportunities to hunt groundhogs, and the Mini 14 seemed like an ideal middle-ground between 22 long rifle and the 30-06 shooting Accelerators. It was also good enough for groundhogs. It was more accurate than the Rem 742, so for a time, I actually thought about using it as a deer rifle.
That's pretty much where I was when I came to the 24hourcampfire.com. By then, Bob's knees had given out, and he was no longer able to hunt. You all have become my replacement crazy uncles.
I've killed quite a few big game animals with rifles that wouldn't average any better than four inches at 100 yards--if you count shotguns with rifled barrels for shooting slugs as rifles. (Dunno why not....) They work fine as long as the range isn't beyond minute-of-deer.
One, however, was a rifle used on an"industry" deer and pig hunt in Texas. Actually, the rifle shot fine, as it was a Remington 700 in 7mm SAUM--which I'd already purchased at the writers' discount, after testing it thoroughly with both factory and handloaded ammo. But the scope chose the Texas hunt to go screwy, which I discovered when range-checking the zero down there. The scope didn't totally fail, as quite a few others have on my rifles, but groups with factory ammo that normally shot into an inch or a little less were around 3-4 inches. So I hunted with it as if it were an open-sighted lever-action, and not only killed deer but one feral pig, plus a javelina, none of which were over 100 yards away.
I killed alot of deer with smoothbore slug guns that wouldn't do better than 5-6 MOA back in the day. They did fine at usual woods ranges. Can't recall that I ever owned a rifle that shot as bad as 4 MOA. That includes 3 mini 14's, a mini 30, several winchester 94's and Marlin 336's, a couple 1894 Marlins, a Rossi 92 and an SMLE. All shot better than 4 MOA. Most considerably so. I was smart enough and informed enough to steer clear of Remington autoloaders even when first starting out.
Had a Browning reproduction of the Model 71 Winchester that grouped three shots into 2-4 inches at 100 yards, depending on the load, and since 5-shot groups average about 1-1/2 times the diameter of 3-shot groups (even in benchrest rifles), that meant it was really a 3-6 inch rifle, even with the aperture sight. Townsend Whelen also described the Winchester 71 .348 a a 4-inch rifle, and that's about how Ken Waters 71 shot before he had it worked over by a well-known (back then) gunsmith, who also built benchrest rifles.
Eventually I did some stress-relieving on the forend stuff, and got my 71 to shoot 3-shot groups of around 2 inches with most loads, and around an inch with some. But from the factory it was about a 4-inch rifle, as many Winchester 71's also were.
My present line-up of lever rifles will all group three shots under 2" at 100 yards, even with open sights, and often do much better. The very first group I shot at 100 with my Winchester 1886 in .33 WCF measured 1.08 inches, but it has a Marble's tang sight.
Interesting post, and I`m here to tell you 4MOA rifles, and shooters, are NOT dead! I know many guys that still shoot them, not with irons either, but with scopes. Scopes are supposed to make a difference...but if the target is only 60 yrds away, don`t matter much. It does help to see horns early or late, in the dark swamp tho. I see guys and their targets at a local range in fall, normally a week or so before season, shooting one, maybe two shots at 100. If a bullet falls within 4 inches of aim, with the scope, the gun is really shooting good enough to kill a deer.. Many years ago, before I knew better, I`d thought the same thing. After all, it is a hundred yards.
Yep, both of my current Winchester 94's will group 3 shots under 2" at 100 yards with iron sights and my old eyes. When I was younger the 1949 model would regularly hover around 1". Not sure whether it's my old eyes or wear on the old rifle that has it shooting closer to 2" today. Probably a little of both. My current Marlin 336 is scoped and is a solid sub MOA shooter for 3 shots with preferred loads.
I once watched two older guys (perhaps even older than I am now) "sight in" their rifles at the local range before big game season. One had an open-sighted lever-action, and the other a scoped bolt.
Their technique was to pile up scrap 2x4's on the bench, then rest the barrels of their rifles on the stack. They were shooting at 25 yards, the long-advised technique for getting close to zero before shooting at 100. I never saw a group under 4" at 25, with most more like buckshot patterns. They were still whacking away at 25 when I left.
I once watched two older guys (perhaps even older than I am now) "sight in" their rifles at the local range before big game season. One had an open-sighted lever-action, and the other a scoped bolt.
Their technique was to pile up scrap 2x4's on the bench, then rest the barrels of their rifles on the stack. They were shooting at 25 yards, the long-advised technique for getting close to zero before shooting at 100. I never saw a group under 4" at 25, with most more like buckshot patterns. They were still whacking away at 25 when I left.
IMO - that is MORE indicative of the " shooters " (?) than their rifles.
Since 1974 -- I've had MORE rifles than I can 'remember' to count. I have NEVER had one that would only shoot 4" groups at 100 yds NOT 25 yds.
IF I should get ahold of a rifle that shoots 4" groups --- I know who to sell it to ! (to whom to sell it.)
I once watched two older guys (perhaps even older than I am now) "sight in" their rifles at the local range before big game season. One had an open-sighted lever-action, and the other a scoped bolt.
Their technique was to pile up scrap 2x4's on the bench, then rest the barrels of their rifles on the stack. They were shooting at 25 yards, the long-advised technique for getting close to zero before shooting at 100. I never saw a group under 4" at 25, with most more like buckshot patterns. They were still whacking away at 25 when I left.
I remember a few years ago one of the guysxatvthe club brought out his Grand Dad’s Royal Newfoundland Lee Enfield from WW1 He asked me to check it for him but his Gramps had shot several moose with it , losing one the year before . I set it up on my BR bags and fired three at fifty yards while he looked through my spotting scope . “Jeepers! It’s hitting sideways!!” Which one” I asked . “All of ‘me!” Cat
High precision is boring. No uncertainty at all. One can't be consider a proper looney until they has healed such things and set it aside to undertake the next crippled rifle.
There are times however when 4 MOA is acceptable. 6 barrels belt fed is an example.
Well, I had a trip down memory lane over the weekend, and I couldn't help thinking of this thread.
My buddy Bob attained ambient temperature over the winter, and I inherited his Ruger Model 44 Carbine. I've been getting it ready for deer hunting this season, and I finally had it out to the bench to do a final sight-in at 100 yards. Lo and behold, I ended up with a roughly 4" group about 1.5 inches over the bull. I doubt this rifle will ever fire more than 50 yards at a deer-- perfect for treestands or sliding through the cedar thickets. It'll also be my 1st choice if I ever get back over into Ohio and hunt under their new PCR rules.
Only 4 MOA! Egads, Shaman!
Truth is, I'm sure the rifle could do better, but I mounted a 1st gen Aimpoint on it. This is a scope I took off O.T.'s 25-06, so I'll be hunting with 2 dead friends this year. The scope puts a 2 MOA red dot on the target, so it more than covered the bullseye at 100 yards.
Judging from the fountains of spray coming up from the puddle behind the target frame, I'm quite impressed.
That gun is suggesting it has potential. It is your job to bring it into a better world.
I have one of those things. Only sight it's ever worn is a Millett SP-1 which has a 3 MOA dot. I think I've shot maybe 2 dozen jacketed bullets thru it, half hand loads with Hornady 240 HP and the other some Fiocchi 240 gr loads. The Horns did about 1.3" at 50 yards and the Fiocchi 1.1" @ 100 yards. Your dot covering the bullseye is no excuse, you just need to cover the BE in a symmetrical fashion with each shot is all.
More to the point, it does this at 100 these days.
Don't be afraid of goin' Quigley with this thing, it works.
Or, if you're afraid you have fat finger syndrome just try some regular cast stuff.
The scope puts a 2 MOA red dot on the target, so it more than covered the bullseye at 100 yards.
You need a different target to assess the real potential. By using the correct target I was able to consistently shoot well below moa using a scope topping out at 6x and having moa thick crosshairs.
While we've probably all seen the guys at the range sighting in with less than perfect form and getting "close enough", there's the other side of the spectrum. The guy who spends all his time at the bench and makes statements like, "if it won't shoot 1/2 MOA I won't own it." But when he gets off the bench and has to shoot off his hind legs, is just as likely to shoot off a deer's hind leg with his "1/2 MOA" rifle. There's a significant number of guys out there who can shoot well off a bench but never learned how to shoot unsupported.
I'd rather see a guy with a 3-4 MOA rifle, using it within its limitations, who knows how to shoot in any position and can confidently make a shot from an unsupported position, then to see some guy with a bug hole rifle trying in vain to hit a buck that didn't play by the rules by waiting for him to get into a rested position.
The scope puts a 2 MOA red dot on the target, so it more than covered the bullseye at 100 yards.
You need a different target to assess the real potential. By using the correct target I was able to consistently shoot well below moa using a scope topping out at 6x and having moa thick crosshairs.
^^^^^^^^^^ YEP,
Originally Posted by shaman
The scope puts a 2 MOA red dot on the target, so it more than covered the bullseye at 100 yards.
When your scope reticle, red dot, whatever - COVERS your aiming point you have NO idea where the CENTER of your scope is WHEN the shot goes off.
Shaman ? ?
I know you are not a novice.
Long ago I figured out that a 'black background' target with a black crosshair wasn't good for specific aiming >> for me. Different people with different eyes should experiment with different COLORS and SIZES for their target (aiming point). All don't have the same eye quality. All don't see colors the same as others. eg. I have a slight color phase blindness. I bought and painted walls with a TAN paint. However IN the house with less than BRIGHT light, the walls have a PASTEL green hue - TO ME.
I like/use 4plex type scope crosshairs and whatever target I use --- I AIM at 6 O'clock. The target is ABOVE my crosshair and I know WHEN the shot goes off IF I'm off, L, R, H, or Lo.
[ When your scope reticle, red dot, whatever - COVERS your aiming point you have NO idea where the CENTER of your scope is WHEN the shot goes off.
Shaman ? ?
I know you are not a novice.
Long ago I figured out that a 'black background' target with a black crosshair wasn't good for specific aiming >> for me. Different people with different eyes should experiment with different COLORS and SIZES for their target (aiming point). All don't have the same eye quality. All don't see colors the same as others. eg. I have a slight color phase blindness. I bought and painted walls with a TAN paint. However IN the house with less than BRIGHT light, the walls have a PASTEL green hue - TO ME.
I like/use 4plex type scope crosshairs and whatever target I use --- I AIM at 6 O'clock. The target is ABOVE my crosshair and I know WHEN the shot goes off IF I'm off, L, R, H, or Lo.
Jerry
I completely agree with you. I still have quite a bit of work ahead of me to get it down to its maximum accuracy, but remember, this is going to be fired offhand out of a treestand or stalking in the cedars-- both of which mean I'm going to have 80 yard visibility maximum. This is good enough to go deer hunting. 4 MOA is going to be more than enough for now. This is my first rifle with a red dot on it. Were I going for maximum accuracy, I'd have stuck a standard crosshair scope on it. O.T. always swore by his red dot scope. I feel I kind of owe it to him to give it a try. I've got targets that have a light grey for rings and black for cross-marks. Those are the ones I use when I'm really trying to produce a group. This one was an all-black target with a red 2" bull. I put it up, because it splatters and throws up yellow around where it gets hit. I just wanted a no-muss/no-fuss setup. Somebody left these at the farm a few years ago, and I found an excuse to use them. They worked: I was off the bench patting myself within 20 minutes.
I already see something in this exercise: O.T. was one the local dead-eye dicks-- always got his deer. However, it's a 2 MOA red dot. How the #@FJ did he know how well his rifle shot? Obviously things work different here on Planet 4MOA.
I think that's the big moral of this thread: some folks go out of their way to get the most accuracy they can. Others figure out what its going to take to get the job done and work back from there.
If you can reliably keep the bullet holes under a 2 moa dot you can do just fine a good bit farther out than 80 yards.
You're absolutely right. I figure I could conceivably take a 120 yard shot without worrying about elevation. The PBR on this load is 117 yards with a 6 inch target. The problem is going to be finding a spot where 120 yards is even possible. In my best deep woods treestand, I know I can see deer in the woods at 80 yards. On the ground, that number goes down to less than 50, and the normal encounter with a deer is in the 5-15 yard range. That's about the farthest I can see without being blocked with cedar trees. Out in the pastures, my longest shot might be 250 yards, but if I'm going there, I've got any one of a number of rifles to take that shoot that far without a hitch.
Going from fine aiming points, like a scope w crosshair...........to a red dot, there is a bit of a learning curve (IMHO). There's a tendency to want to look around the dot. Dots that are big, or have flare, make it worse.
A crisp 2 moa dot is pretty sweet and small enough you see enough of the target around it to end up trusting it.
Trusting in what you don't see...........the target behind the center of the dot. And you will hit it.
Just a different view/way of thinking. Takes a few rounds to get there.
I suppose one could go so far as to not trust the dot, set the impact for the top edge of the dot, never covering up their aiming point. Had a 3 moa dot and shot clays on the bank at 100. It was boring. Pieces of clays died with regularity too.
Still prefer a scope, on a rifle. But on a handgun, a reddot whips an EER IMHO. No loss of image when moved a little, no magnification of wobbles............just a dot and a shot. Nails em. Think on a deer handgun, they're wonderful.
I've thought about a micro on a rifle.............been watching too much "Wild Boar Fever" LOL
BTW, I like 2 moa dot better than 3.........for everything. I don't shoot speed steel though. Think the guys like bigger dots then.
Shaman I’ve read your responses and I understand your point & purpose.
I hope you understand and don’t take offense at my point & purpose. From the thread that generated this one....
4 MOA is totally unacceptable to me.
If it works for you that’s good.
Jerry
Oh gosh and golly no! I didn't on the previous thread, and I'm not taking offense now. This is wholly a different strokes/different folks kind of deal.
Please understand, that if Bob hadn't passed, and I had not ended up with this rifle, I'd have been trying to wring the last bit of accuracy out of a 25-06 Mauser that has gone largely unused since I got it. I'm down to 1-1.5 MOA with it, and I'd be doing more with it this fall. I blooded it the year I got it and gave a pile of venison to old O.T. to get him through the winter, and now he's dead. I've already got it shooting better than O.T. ever did when he owned it.
As it is, I now own what some have called the best close-in deer rifle of all time and I'm now challenged to do it up oldstyle the way Bob would have wanted me to-- minute of pie-plate/in your face/smellin' the buck's breath.
I hunted with my wife and her father and two brothers. They all used Remington 742 or 760 rifles. I used a 25-06 Mauser. My brother in law told me that I was overcomplicating things. He told me that I point a piece of pipe at a piece of meat. If the pipe is pointed at the meat when the trigger is pulled you get the meat. I bought a 35 Whelen mostly to piss him off because he said I didn't need it. whelennut
Knowing the gun is important. Not knowing the range sometimes makes a MOA rifle look bad. It is always the rifle's fault! OH yeah, and checking the sight in before each hunting season might be advisable (which I almost always do - ran out of time this year).
My 725 in .260 is an honest MOA rifle on paper, at ranged distances. Get it out in the field, tho, it's accuracy goes all to hell. Once it pecker-shot a caribou. (Distance and wind). Just a couple weeks ago, it skinned a nice bull caribou's leg about 6 inches over the hoof pretty good. Dumped him on the ground with what I thought was an impressive shot, but he got up again. Missed next two shots totally, even holding high. He was moving right along, too, getting farther away all the time. Made him limp for a time. Last I saw of him at the time he was using all four legs, just limping some on the one, as he disappeared into the valley brush about a mile away. "Flesh wound", I told my wife. Only animal I have never attempted to follow up. Still a bad feeling!
I know,"for a time", cuz he wasn't limping the next day when my wife shot him. Noticed the split skin when I went to drag him down to a flatter spot for dressing. Took a better look at his antlers, and yep - same bull. He had a couple bad days, but suddenly I was having a very good one.
A bit later, that first day, on my way back to sight in a rifle that I had lost all confidence in, it did just fine on a 100 yard bull. I mean, how far off could it be, at that range? Bullet went right to POA. Down at the truck that night, it put two bullets two inches high into a piece of mining refuse at 106 paces, with a center to center distance of 1/4 inch.
See what I mean about it behaving itself on paper? Or in this case, a 2' X 3' piece of 3 inches of styrofoam bonded to a half inch of concrete, with an inch-diameter permanent marker dot drawn on it.
Now, Ironbender told me not to tell you guys this, but we are all friends here, right? And discrete?. Kindly even!
The extractor on the .,260 broke at the Cody WY gun range last year and I never got around to getting the replacement fitted. Only two of my other rifles were ready to go - a .338WM sighted in with 250 grain Hornady RN (some 10 years ago), and a heavy barreled Mauser 98 (10.5 lbs) that gets one inch groups at 300 yards. The '98 went as did the .260 as a single shot, with spare rounds in the magazine. All told, the .260 weighs right around 7 to 7.5 lbs, sling, scope, and 10 rounds. More better than either oif the other two for packing around a mountain- and I really wasn't expecting that much of the hunt anyway that first day (see 40 mile caribou on Alaska thread)
Just wait 8-10 seconds for the brass to cool and shrink, tip the muzzle up, open the bolt, and the empty brass slides right out. Maybe a bit of a stock bump sometimes... the next one chambers just fine, and it's faster than a ML!
Tho not as fast as a real single-shot. And unfired chambered rounds are a bit stickier to unload.
It took two pretty good bulls on two successive days, so, hey! My wife's was at about 137 yards on the rangefinder, which had refused to work for me on that first bull the day before. He was well within the range of the Leupold 800i - just would not pick it up. Bull was probably 400-450, instead of my eyeballed "250-300".
Stupid gun!
I also check-sighted the '98 that first night, and packed it up the mountain the second day (did not the first). It has never been off in the several years I used it off the ATV or snow machine up in the Arctic, bringing it home with me a year ago last May. Not fired since, until the check-sight. 3 inches high at 106 - two rounds touching, but 5 inches to the right. Must have been that last trip coming home on the snow machine after killing a caribou, or the airline. 15 clicks left put the next round 3 inches high above the dot, dead in line horizontally with the first two. The advertised "1 click = 1/4 inch is slightly off, but I knew that, and by roughly how much.
Why TC put 1:45 barrels on their BP's I have no idea. It won't shoot ball, nor the mininies with any degree of accuracy.
My Hawkin .50 on a good day will get under 6" groups. I don't think I ever got a 4 inch group at 100 with it.
I have taken it moose hunting several times, without luck, but with no worries about "accuracy". A washtub size fatal area vs a 6" group at 100 yards or less? No problem!
Of the 20-some moose I have taken, only two exceeded 100 yards, one by 40, another by 60 yards. My average distance is about 65-70.
Get close enough, even a smoothbore will kill ( one moose with 12 Ga. slug at 35 yards).
Actually, except for drop, that Win 1200 with 1 oz slugs gets better groups than the Hawkin!
I had several M-16s cycle through my hands. The first was a Colt rifle that shattered the chromed bolt carrier. That was a show-stopper. I had a GM Hydramatic Division one that was accurate as hell and I even got hauled in for shooting sand lizards at 100+ meters at the Phu Bai ammo dump. No sense of humor... The pile of lizard carcasses removed any hope of denial. I switched units 3 times and each time a new- to - me rifle. Zero at a range? LOL
The CAR -15 I ended up with the last 6 months was a shooter with the short barrel. I took it to the garbage pit and whacked a few cans at 25 yards and called it good. Then burned through 4 or 5 mags at full auto to make sure it would shoot reliably. 4 moa isn't such a bad thing if you are shooting a fair sized targets at close range. Happy Trails
My T/C Hawken (.50 cal) is very accurate with both RBs and 385 grain conicals.
.
I also have a 6MOA .45 Seneca.... Cannot convince me 1:45 is a good rate of twist for either ball or Minnie, much less both. dumasses should have gone high or low, or both high and low, shooter's choice. I'd have bought both. In fact, TC should have sold it in swap-barrel form.
What I really want is a Renegade in .54..... an accurate one. but I'll never buy TC BP again.
If I was really hot to trot ML, I'd get a proper twist barrel or conicals and modify the Hawkin, but since there is no advantage (read reasonable access to ML season), I won't.
Back in the Jurassic era I had a T/C Renegade in .50 that I built from a kit. RB or maxi shot remarkably well. 50 gr of 2f for the RB was good for 1" at 50 yards every day of the week. 90 gr. of 2f with the maxiballs was good for about the same and seldom more than 2" at 100. Of course that's back when I could see fairly well.
If I should ever cross paths with the asshat that stole it he's gonna die.
You are absolutely correct in saying a 4 MOA rifle is all YOU need for deer or anything else. A 4 moa rifle for woodchucks, not so much. With some of the people here, those who hunt in the prairies, open mountains and over large bean fields, not so much. You don't find things like 742's or 760's there too much from what I understand.
As far as 70's and 80's rifles, I bought a bunch. Mostly of the late 60's and 70's vintage. Many sold originally from Sears, J.C.Pennys and Western Auto. I would take them and tune them to be as good as they could be. Then I would get bored with them and sell them then start another project. I enjoyed that.
Haven't read the whole thread but I used to live there - called rural Pennsylvania. If you could hit a paper plate at 100 yards every time you qualified as marksman.
Haven't read the whole thread but I used to live there - called rural Pennsylvania. If you could hit a paper plate at 100 yards every time you qualified as marksman.
To qualify for that one, you had to first win the Regionals, which consisted of hitting a coke or beer can at 50 yards. It had to be done with factory ammo of which you could not use two sequential boxes of the same brand or bullet weight, much less lot number. Who knew what the hell what a lot number was, anyway, other than where your single-wide was parked.
You absolutely could not fiddle with the sights. If you said you had peeps, people would close their curtains, well, except Billy-bob's wife..
When shooting with your hunting buddy, the first to declare "well, She's ready!" cinched a berth at the next round..That's how we did it.
I'll tell this on myself. For years, my only deer rifle was a Marlin 336 30-30. I always worked and inevitably opening day of deer season would roll around and I hadn't shot my rifle to see if the scope was 'still on'. I'd wind up driving over in the pasture, after dark, and tack a piece of paper on a dead tree. Back up about 25 yds and using the truck head lights to see by, 'sight-in' my scope. When I hit a nickle size circle the first time, it was 'good to go'. I killed a lot of deer, with the rifle 'sighted-in' that way, but very few of the shots were over 50 yds.
My T/C Hawken (.50 cal) is very accurate with both RBs and 385 grain conicals.
.
I also have a 6MOA .45 Seneca.... Cannot convince me 1:45 is a good rate of twist for either ball or Minnie, much less both. dumasses should have gone high or low, or both high and low, shooter's choice. I'd have bought both. In fact, TC should have sold it in swap-barrel form.
What I really want is a Renegade in .54..... an accurate one. but I'll never buy TC BP again.
If I was really hot to trot ML, I'd get a proper twist barrel or conicals and modify the Hawkin, but since there is no advantage (read reasonable access to ML season), I won't.
Fun to shoot, even if it won't hit anything.....
T/C actually used a 1 in 48" twist. With the right thickness patch combined with the right diameter ball and the right powder charge they are very accutate. Mine will cloverleaf at 75 yards with a .490" ball combined with a .015" patch and 75 grs. of Goex fffg.. Like any rifle, sometimes they need a little tweaking to do their best, which is why the rear tang and full length of the barrel channel is acraglassed on mine.
My T/C Hawken (.50 cal) is very accurate with both RBs and 385 grain conicals.
Never shot mine with conicals but it is very accurate with patched balls.
Right now mine has a .32 caliber Green Mountain barrel on it. Twenty grains of powder and all that steel in the barrel, no recoil at all and deadly accurate. Too bad the only squirrels worth hunting here are the non-native fox squirrels, not many place to hunt those, they're mostly city dwellers.
Yes, I did accraglas mine also. And have tried all kinds of variations on patch/ball/powder charge, as well as at least a half-dozen of the conicals made by various folks, in different weights. Including sabots. Haven't played with the Seneca as much.
I loaned it to my CO brother 20 years or so ago- he's managed to kill a couple deer with it, all of them under 50yards. It's good enough for that.
Now that I'm retard, I should get it back, buy a barrel of powder, write up a list to go through, and play with it some more, less randomly.
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