G'Day John,

Just a quick question. I had a mate who needed to anneal some 30 year old .17 Remington cases. I told him about the candle method and holding the case head with bare fingers and dropping them when they just get too hot to hold. Pretty simple I thought.

However, In his own wisdom he decided to hold the cases while wearing a thick pair of work gloves. He held the cases until they got too hot to hold through the gloves.

Has he softened the case heads too much by letting the cases get too hot?

Thanks.

Probably. One way to find out.

What Craigster said.

Yeah, I thought that might be the answer lol.

Thanks.

lol is exactly right

Thanks for reviving this topic..... Now that I'm in Chinese plague isolation mode there seems to be more reloading activity around here lately. Gonna give annealing a shot, ( without gloves), still have those instructions around here somewhere but haven't tried it yet. I'm even getting bored running around in the woods checking trail cams as a form of self isolation.

I use this
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/100735354
Must be my engineering background but I like to be a bit more precise.

Once you use the Tempiqual a couple times you get a feel for it, especially if you observe the case color changes.

Which temperature Tempilaq due you use and where do you apply it?

Blacktailer,

The candle method was developed by using Tempilaq, by Fred Barker, who used to write a lot for Precision Shooting.

The one thing I've found is that it doesn't work with nickel plated brass. At least, not for me. Ended up pitching them and starting over with brass brass.

For years my annealing has been done with the use of a propane tank and holding the cases in my bare hands. I hold the cases with a count from 1-thousand up to 7-thousand and then drop it into a bowl of water for quenching. Crude but seems to have worked for quite a few years for me.

Jim

There will be no quenching. It will just cool the case. Brass can not be hardened like steel or iron (no carbon in it). It can be work hardened which is why you anneal it so it doesn't crack. I'm a former metallurgist for a transmission company. The templaq method gets you in the correct annealing temperature range so you don't over anneal it.

Every time this subject comes up, a bunch of guys say they use XYZ method--often the old-time annealing method recommended by just about every magazine/gun writer when I was a young rifle loony--standing the cases up in a pan full of water, with their shoulders and necks above the water. You then heated the exposed necks until they glowed red, and tipped 'em over into the water--which supposedly quenched 'em and finished the jobs.

As warbirdlover pointed out, annealing brass does not require quenching, because it would anneal fine if just left standing in the water. The real reason for the water was to prevent the case-heads from annealing too, because they need to stay hard. But heating brass until it glows any degree of red also tends to over-anneal it, making it softer than ideal.

The candle method was developed by Fred Barker with Tempiliq because he wanted a really simple method to use on small batches of brass, and also be just enough to anneal correctly. He experimented a lot, and found that holding any case from the .22 Hornet up in the middle with the tips of the fingers, then heating it in the flame of a candle until you couldn't hold it any longer annealed the brass fine--but did not over-anneal. He then dropped them on a wet towel, both to stop the annealing and wipe off the candle-smoke.

He sent me a copy of his article, and I also tested it with Templiaq. It works fine, but may not be as precise as some prefer. There are a bunch of other methods that are, including electronic annealing, as with the AMP machine.

I have tested a bunch of methods, and written about the basic metallurgy--except I need to try salt-bath annealing. The most recent publication on the metallurgy of annealing brass, and how various methods have worked, was a chapter in my book GUN GACK II, published in 2018. (I'm working on GG III right now, and in fact have handed my completed copy and photos over to the editor of the publishing company. It should appear in August or September.)

It would helpful in these discussions if more folks actually know how brass anneals, or why some methods don't work very well and others do. But apparently that is never going to happen, since every annealing thread that I've seen since joining the Campfire 19 years ago covers the same ground. But then most thread do.

I use the 750 Tempilaq and apply a dab inside the case neck. You don't want to apply on the outside because then you are reading flame temp. Usually just do the first 10 cases or so until you get the timing figured out.

A bunson or small alcahol burner like this one work very well. https://www.sciplus.com/wickless-de...KrejA6AIVma_ICh0VSwN6EAQYCCABEgJFIvD_BwE

I have not tried one with Templac but I think these are hotter and faster than a candle and with less soot. But there are those that have to have their vanilla candles, they probably shoot 270s too.

I too drop mine into a pot of water. Not for any metal treatment, just to keep from dinging up case necks with out bothering to sit them down gently.

I’ve used candles, kerosene candles and a propane torch, standing in water and twirling on a finish nail held with pliers. My preferred method these days is the torch with low flame as it works better for me than the others, particularly with larger caliber/cases. I drop them in water only because I don’t care to handle them when the case head starts getting hot. Only time I screwed up was the first time; .22 HP brass standing in water...got them too hot and it took a couple of fire/load cycles before they started behaving.

I have brass for a variety of cartridges that have been fired 15-30 times and are still in good shape.

Dan,

Even the AMP (Annealing Made Perfect) electric annealing machine, can overdo it. When I tested one, they had a list of cartridges/manufacturers with the digital settings. I had some .30-06 cases from a manufacturer they listed, and it over-annealed those, which required a couple firings before they returned to normal. The problem is 2-fold, because even brass from specific manufacturers varies from lot-to-lot; and quite a few major manufacturers make brass for each other. This may seem odd, but it happens far more often than many handloaders suspect.

It was no big deal, but even with the AMP (which retails for over $1000) there can be some tweaking involved in specific brass.

John, I had no idea they collaborated in that fashion.

On the matter of annealing machinery, the longer I play with this the more I appreciate how functional the old ways are, and I have a KISS mentality anyway.

Dan,

Yep!

Yes. Several years back with my first 45-70 workup I picked up several bags of unprimed Win brass. About every 10th round was a primed 45-70 Hornady cartridge. Seemed the Hornady was a tad (scientific term) shorter than the Win's, so took those back to the seller and exchanged. Still don't know if the source was actually Winchester or Hornady.

The AMP's have gone up in price, the machine is $1395 plus pilots and extras you will need, an easy $1500

I have been using the salt bath method for 2 years now and prefer it over torch methods, The only down side to salt bath that I have found is that your cases must be very clean to keep from contaminating the salt. vibratory tumbling does very little to clean inside the case so cases must be rotary tumbled and dried prior to annealing then rinsed and dried again after annealing

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^

Except I don't count. 3/4" blue cone, twirl and drop into bucket of water as base starts warming up. Most accuracy on second reload, presumably evening out any aberration of heat on the first. Accuracy starts dropping off on 3 and 4 reloads, then anneal again.

Exactly why I switched to salt bath, first shot accuracy!!!

How about a how-to reference for this salt bath annealing? Sounds similar to "niter bluing" of small steel parts.
Thanks,
Rex
EDIT - never mind...
Salt Bath Annealing
Second edit: Which led me to:
AMP's response
Interesting stuff. Makes me wonder if my candle method execution is doing it right. Anybody know if such rigorous testing as AMP did has been done on candle annealed cases? I thrust MD's lessons so I'm not worried about it, just curious.

Bob338,

Your method would be result in better first-shot accuracy if you tested it with Tempilaq in each round.

TRex,

All I know about "rigorous" testing with the candle method was that Fred used Tempilaq to develop the method, and I tried it with some as well when I started fooling with it. The results were good enough that I eventually quit using Tempilaq, and have candle-annealed a bunch of cases or various sizes, and got excellent accuracy from the first groups. The last done, as I recall, were a batch of .257 Weatherbys for my New Ultra Light Arms rifle in that chambering, which normally shoots into less than an inch at 200 yards with its favorite load. It shot even better than that with the 20 candle-annealed cases.

As noted, I have tried a number of annealing techniques, but still use the candle method on occasion when only a few cases need to be done, because "set up" time is so quick.

I did the torch method on some nickle cases and you can't see too much color change on the nickle until you have over done it. Blew the shoulders off of two cases when fire forming to 280 AI the rest were OK. But I tried sizing/resizing a couple of cases four times and they seemed to get work hardened some. I also left the rest of the batch in the garage for a couple of years and they seemed to have age hardened or they were not over heated to begin with. Not very scientific but might be worth looking into. I would have tossed them but I went out of my way to get 500 cases from the same lot.

Tried the Tempilac for a short while. Didn't see any difference and it made things far more complicated than I think they need to be. Differences in accuracy weren't that much but did get consistently better on second reloads regardless of method. I think I still have that Tempilac somewhere, mostly unused.

What temperature did you use?

What do you use when you have more than a few? Anneal-Rite that you've written about, or something else? Thanks.

Yep, the Anneal-Rite.

Would have to dig through tons of stuff to verify but as I recall it was 700F.

Verified. 700 degrees.

The AMP machine is awesome and for the most part works as advertised, that said their response to salt bath is total bull schitt propaganda. They were threatened by a $100 device that worked as well as their $1500 device. They would have you believe that your brass could never be annealed unless you buy from them.

That's an interesting response, but for it to be true the AMP folks would have to actually be falsifying their independent lab analysis of the actual softening that occurred in the subject brass. Is that what you are saying they did - published falsified results? Just curious, as a sort of a scientific type I can't see any other way to take that.
Thanks,
Rex

It's pretty easy to interpret data in many different ways...

John, the AMP Mk II version, which has been available for about two years, uses software called Aztec which will analyze a donor case for perfect annealing and generate a code for that particular batch of brass. You then use that code for future annealing with that batch. The donor case is completely destroyed. It prevents the issue you encountered of over annealing and under annealing too.

Reference: Denatured Alcohol Candle

zeissman,

Thanks for that info.

That's a nice clean looking flame. Did you make that? Any hints or guidance for us to do the same? It'd be nice to rig up a DNA-fueled lamp to have less soot on the cases. I looked at some cheap ones on Amazon but none of them seem to produce as nice aflame as yours.
Thanks,
Rex

I use an alcohol lamp. About 5 bucks anywhere.

https://www.homesciencetools.com/pr...U567M6AIVEHiGCh3yggbmEAQYBSABEgK2RPD_BwE

There's a link in his post.

MD, I have brought a few back to normal by simply running the case necks back and forth into the neck portion of the sizing die and back over the neck and expander ball without removing the case from the die. At least that seems to work.

Have you ever tried that? Five or six cycles, and the necks are back to where they should be.

Ted

Ted,

No, I haven't, mostly because I've only encountered over-annealed brass once. But it makes sense!

This is the same reason I like using the candle method, or slightly modified version to save my poor fingers. I usually anneal 20-50 brass at a time just before I prep and reload them and it is quick and easy to setup and do the job.
I started salt bath annealing last year but because of the extra setup time and complexity, I try and wait until I have large numbers of brass to do. It’s become a little more of a “chore” because of that. It may give a more consistent product but for my needs I don’t think I’d be able to see the difference.

Finally, someone else who values his fingers!

That's what you need if you don't want to make your own CrowRifle, great!

JB, I use it, and, like Dumbo's feather, it seems to work....for which I am grateful. TY

Well I'll be dipped in she-ite. Right you are. How'd I miss that?
Thanks,
Rex

OK, I made myself one too. Used some sash cord for the wick. Works like a champ with DNA. Way hotter than a candle and absolutely no soot at all. Just did 60 .243 cases.
Now, I find that with this method I do not get much, if any, of the discoloration to the brass that I see with more "controlled" (for lack of a better term) methods. And while I may be a wimp, though I don't think so, I am pretty sure I am getting them plenty hot. I have a friend who is a pretty advanced F-class shooter and he has an AMP machine and anneals his cases every reloading. He calls me a masochist for using a method that basic say to do a thing until it hurts so bad you can't do it any more, then do the same thing a few dozen more times in a row.
I think he might be right...LOL.

Do others who use the candle / DNA lamp method see those distinctive color variations like we see in GI or Lapua factory brass? I don't.

Thanks,
Rex

Your friend makes a very valid assessment.

Yup ,, thanks for the link CrowRifle !

I killed three crows at my lease the other day - just saying .
Great reminder of the beauty of a 22-250 launching a 55gr. Blitzking , 30yds and [2] @ 80yds. - they didn't suffer that's for sure .

Annealing brass can be as involved as you want it to be.

I am always trying to find the simplest way of doing things and to that end here is simple for me.

Put a drill motor in a vice with soft jaws, chuck an appropriate sized socket, light a propane torch (small torch on 1 lb bottle), hold flame on slowly spinning (~60 rpm) cartridge.

I leave in the flame for 8 seconds, my regular cadence of counting is such that I count to 13, this consistently gives 8 seconds in the flame.

I pick, with my bare fingers, the brass case out of the socket and put it a container (glass kitchen bowl).

When all that is needed is done , the brass goes directly to further prep and is loaded.

This is a simple method and I usually do lots of up to 100 pcs.

With benchrest loading techniques the Extreme Spread is is right around 10 ft/s and depending on the round loaded in the single digits.

This simple method of annealing, has in part, put me on the podium a few times in 1000 yard events.

G'day. How can you tell if brass is over annealed? Thanks.

Anyone please?

Elvis,

Basically, the necks are too soft. You can feel it when seating bullets, and accuracy usually ain't great--but if accuracy improves after the first firing, then you're pretty sure!

In the instance I cited, a rifle that usually groups 5 shots well inside an inch started shooting 3-shot groups over an inch. After the first firing, things got back to normal.

As has been discussed earlier, heating brass to 800 degrees F. for a few seconds does the job. Heating it hotter and longer can make it too soft--which is often what happens when heating it "red hot," however that is defined or perceived.

They didn't falsify anything. They're simply claiming that full annealing, as opposed to recovery annealing, is the only proper way to anneal. They don't state it in those terms but if you understand the science behind it that's fundamentally what's going on.

The benefit of Salt Bath Annealing is that the temperature is limited, thereby ensuring the brass stays in recovery (at those temps, full annealing is possible but would require far more time than we're going to hold it by hand). Since AMP has taken the position that recovery annealing isn't proper annealing, that's how they arrive at the claim that SBA doesn't work.

Thanks,
When I read through AMP's statement, I didn't see anything about full annealing versus recovery annealing - maybe I missed it. I just noted the lab tests that measured the degree to which the brass was effected by the two methods.
Is there a short version of what is the distinction between full and recovery annealing?
Which of those two is being accomplished by the candle anneal method?
Thanks,
Rex

Not exactly, there are other possibilities.

For example, the AMP article is based on their a priori assumption that hardness testing is the only true measure of the results of annealing.

That assumption is interesting, but it's conjecture and certainly not a well established scientific fact.

Ideally, for the purposes of a cartridge case, one wants brass to maintain a certain hardness. The problem with work hardened brass in that application is not necessarily the increased hardness, but the loss of ductility and potential development of stress fractures.

To simply maintain that Salt Bath Annealing has no effect on brass denies the actual results of actual users experience.



As to the difference between Recovery Annealing and Full Annealing...

Candle Annealing was explained fully by Mule Deer in a paragraph or two. With a total investment of One Dollar ($1) to get set up and started one can achieve PROVEN results.

PROVEN by analysis and proven by decades of actual testing by thousands of users.

Annealing as defined by AMP requires a 300 page scientific treatise to show that only their machine will work, and costs $1500.

After reading the AMP scientific treatise, apparently only the $1500 machine method will work at all.

If that is truly the case, how did millions of Benchrest and Match shooters possibly ever manage to Anneal their brass cases for 100 years before the AMP machine was invented?

Hell...I've been doing it for over half that long.

After all, a simple method that only costs a dollar ($1) can't possibly achieve the same results as a $1500 unit...can it...?

Hey...I just ask the questions... one can draw their own conclusions...

Fück science.

The Scientific Method is based on making intentional wrong assumptions and testing them, and learning from mistakes.

Changing theories as needed to accommodate the results.

That IS the scientific method...based on observation of the results.

No shît?

You need to reread your Karl Popper and Thomas Kuhn.

I tested the ones I saw by pressing the neck mouth with my thumbnail, and they dented easily. Five or six runs back and forth as stated above and they were firm again.

Ted

Work hardening via sizing/expanding. That's how new cases become harder (less plastic) during firing cycles, therefore annealing is required to return the case to an acceptable condition.

They don't mention anything specifically about the differences in their articles that I know of but I haven't looked at their website in a while.

In a nutshell, there's two basic mechanisms that effect the hardness of the case, it's grain structure and defects within the atomic lattice. There's 3 phases in annealing, recovery, recrystalization and grain growth. During recovery, which is what you're doing when keeping temperatures relatively low (750 tempilaq, SBA, etc), enough energy is applied to remove dislocations within the atomic lattice. That moderately softens the case but retains the strength of the cold worked grain structure because there's no recrystalization/grain growth. Heating the case to higher temps (or longer times), causes the grains the recrystalize and grow back as large strain free grains. That's what yields the large reductions in hardness (increase in ductility) but at the expense of a weakened material.

Unfortunately I get up at 2am for work so have to leave it at that but hopefully that gives some insight as to why there's a disconnect between what AMP claims and the experience of users of other annealing methods.

Thanks MD.

Exactly, and that’s also how you can restore necks that have become too soft from being heated too hot.

Ted

They don't claim that hardness testing is the "only true measure of the results of annealing". It is however a good measure, and a Vickers microhardness traverse is a particularly good method for assessing the extent and consistency of annealing along a sample. It is widely used by metallurgists, and I've personally done lots of them for this and related purposes. For a given sample of cartridge brass, as we anneal hardness drops and ductility rises. As we cold work, hardness increases and ductility drops. They are opposite sides of the same coin, so hardness testing is a really good proxy for ductility in this particular application.

The authors of the article didn't claim that salt-bath annealing had no effect. Their results were that it did not adequately anneal case necks, even where time and temperature were such that case shoulders and body were over-annealed. They also point out that it is hazardous. Nor did they claim that their machine is the only method by which cases may be annealed. This is a straw man.

Or perhaps just read them the first time. Worth reading too.

I've always used a drill and propane torch and decided to give the candle method a try. I needed to size 50 rounds of well used 223 into 222 Rem, with the candle method I was getting wrinkles and fold when moving the shoulder on about 50% or more cases. I went back to the torch and the ruined cases dropped significantly.

When annealing for case forming 9.3x72R to 6.5x58R Sauer sometimes I have to anneal two or three times before I can get the case formed.

9.3x72R right to 6.5x58R Sauer center.