I'm working up a load for a new to me 7x57 98 Mauser I have never shot yet and want to load it with an old favorite bulet of mine, 140 Grain Ballstic Tip. Seeing that this is new to me I want to try a different propellant. But I want it to be consistently the best powder for that cartridge, if possible. I want the max velocity for max accuracy. What's the consensus here of the best powder and charge weight for a 140 grain bullet in a modern 7x57 bolt gun? This is a strong commercial 98 actiion.

I loaded with that same bullet and used IMR 4350 Powder. You can look up loading data on the IMR web page.-Mike

Old notes I have show 42.6 grs of IMR 4064 under 140 Sierras . Avg 2800 fps, very good accuracy. 98 Mauser, 23 inch Douglas barrel.

I shoot the 140 Ballistic Tip out of my Featherweight...

My load is 44 grains of 4064, or 4895/IMR...

If you have one that doesn't shoot real well... then 40 grains of IMR 3031...

I load 49gn H4350 with the 140gn Partition and Woodleigh PP in my Ruger 1A for around 2800fps give or take. It might have a longer throat than your bolt gun so work up at your own discretion.

Thanks Mike
Mike

Thanks Craigster

Mike

Thanks Seafire
Mike

RL17 worked really nice in my Featherweight with 140 Accubonds and Ballistic Tips. Both went over 2900.

In my push feed Model 70 Featherweight 7X57, I shoot 140 grain Partitions and 50 grains of H4350 in R-P cases and Winchester WLR primers. This load is safe in my rifle, maybe not in yours. As always, start about 3 grains lower and work up carefully.

[qhuote=Elvis]I load 49gn H4350 with the 140gn Partition and Woodleigh PP in my Ruger 1A for around 2800fps give or take. It might have a longer throat than your bolt gun so work up at your own discretion. [/quote]
Thanks Elvis
Mike

Well not really anything I haven't tried or had in mind but all these answers are confirming my suspicions that these are the go to powders.

I have 4895 and 4064 on hand though. Now that someone suggested 4350 I'm wondering about RL-17. Has anybody tried that? I think I'll try all these and see what the results are. I've been wanting to buy some 4350 anyway.

Thanks everybody.

This adds credence to my theory that RL-17 has a special property that 4350 or most other powders don't. This is something I discovered in loading my .250 Savage.

I like IMR4895 in the 7x57...for a 140 grainers Id say Johns load of 44 grains should be just right...

4320 and 4895 is what I hame used in the 2 or 3 that I have loaded for.

H414 has always given me excellent results, accuracy and good velocity under 140 and 150 grain bullets in my 7x57 and 7-08.

W760 (aka H414) has worked well for me, as well as JOC's load of 43gr IMR4320. Been using JB's load of 47-49gr H4350 of late. Works in the three I have currently.

+1 (I like H4895 too)

IMR4350 or RL19 have always worked well for me in 7x57 with 140s.

Filaman,

One major comment before discussing powders: As I have mentioned a number of times before in several magazine articles and books, there is no way 7x57 reloading data can be standardized in the same way as it can for, say, the .30-06, .270 Winchester, 7mm-08 Remington and most other cartridges. This is because the 7x57 was introduced early in the smokeless-powder era as a military round, and like most other early smokeless military rounds it was designed for a heavy round-nosed bullet, so the chamber throat was very long. (Apparently heavy, round-nosed bullets were initially standard because that's what were primarily used in the black powder military cartridges of the day.)

Not too much later, most military rounds were switched to lighter pointed bullets at higher muzzle velocities, which flattened trajectory and reduced wind-drift at longer ranges. In some of the older military rounds, the chamber throats were shortened to better accommodate the lighter spitzers, good examples being the 8x57 and .30-06. But the 7x57 never went through this in its military days, though eventually when it was primarily being used as a hunting cartridge many rifles were given shorter throats.

There was never any real standardization done, even though organizations regulating such things, such as SAAMI (the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufactuers Institute) in the U.S. eventually settled on a much shorter chamber throat than the long military original. But even after that, American-made 7x57 throats have varied. I've owned several 7x57s made by Ruger, and throats ranged in length from the present SAAMI throat (which is relatively short) to one perhaps even longer than the original military throat. Plus, plenty of other companies have come up with their own variations. I had one custom 7x57 made by a company that uses a reamer with a throat even shorter than the SAAMI specifications.

As a result of all this, there is no way the same powder charges are going to produce similar results in all 7x57s. I've seen as much as three grains difference in the amount of IMR4350 required to produce the same velocity with 140-grain bullets. Any suggestions about powder charges on this thread can results in such widely varying velocity--and pressure, because pressure is what produces velocity. This is aside from the usual variations in powder lots, brass thickness and bullets themselves, and is exactly why I've long advised loading the 7x57 for to a general muzzle velocity for various bullet weights, rather than sticking to a specific listed powder charge.

Yes, there is something different about Reloder 17: It's a very progressive burning double-based powder, which is different than the single-based powders often recommended in the 7x57, such as IMR4064, IMR4895, IMR4350 and H4350. The dash of nitroglycerine added to double-based powders (which is why they are called double-based) provides a little more energy.

But 17 is not alone in this: Another excellent, modern double-based powder for 140s in the 7x57 is Ramshot Big Game, which is widely known as a "wonder powder" for the 7mm-08. It works just as well in the 7x57, and in my experience is more temperature resistant then RL-17. In my last 7x57, made by the company with the short-throated reamer, 48.5 grains of Big Game resulted in just under 2900 fps from the 21-inch barrel with the 139-grain Hornady Spire Point Interlock, and excellent accuracy.

But that does NOT mean Big Game will produce that much velocity in a 7x57 with a longer throat--and there are many such 7x57s out there, even among modern commercial rifles.

I see you live in the great state of Texas where extreme cold usually isn't an issue, so I'm going to recommend H414 with the 140BT. In my Mauser VZ I load 49 grains of it for about 2900 fps. I use a magnum primer. My typical five-shot will be an inch or so. The trajectory to 400 yards is not much different than my .270 Win. loaded with it's best 140 grain load.

This adds credence to my theory that RL-17 has a special property that 4350 or most other powders don't. This is something I discovered in loading my .250 Savage.

Yes though I have been hunting in Texas in the low teens in the morning and 60's in the afternoon. Supposedly gives up 1 fps per degree? So just how bad is 53 fps going to effect your rifles ability to kill game?

You could start by dropping 48gr of either H or IMR-4350 under those 140's, same charge I put under 175 Partitions in my 7X57 98 Mauser, they run a flat 2700 fps and are ragged hole accurate.

gunner,

Apparently my post on why pressures vary a lot in 7x57s with the SAME load was too long for members to read: Here's the pertinent part:

"I've owned several 7x57s made by Ruger, and throats ranged in length from the present SAAMI throat (which is relatively short) to one perhaps even longer than the original military throat. Plus, plenty of other companies have come up with their own variations. I had one custom 7x57 made by a company that uses a reamer with a throat even shorter than the SAAMI specifications. As a result of all this, there is no way the same powder charges are going to produce similar results in all 7x57s. I've seen as much as three grains difference in the amount of IMR4350 required to produce the same velocity with 140-grain bullets."

I have to agree with what JB says based on my experience with three rifles chambered to the 7x57. My M70 Featherweight will run 2800 FPS using Re17 and the 150 gr. Nosler Partition as will my Ruger #1A. They will also run 2800 FPS running a load of W760 and the 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips. However, my custom Mauser 7x57 balks at just about everything I've run through it. Camber dimensions are a bit tighter than the commercial rifle but the neck section of the chamber is open enough that it's not the problem. The throat is long enough that 170 gr. Sierras can be seated far out enough yet still not contact the rifling. I loaded some to duplicate as close as possible to the original 1892/3 specs and ran them over the chronograph. The Winchester and Ruger were right on the money will only about 20 FPS difference. That same load was 150 FPS faster than the two commercial rifles running the exact same load. I have yet to figure out what the hell is going on with that rifle.
Paul B.

My Ruger #1 liked IMR 4350 with 140 gr bullets. Lately I've been working up a load with Nosler 150 BT and Ramshot Hunter powder. Have a few pounds of Hunter cause I use it in my .220 Swift. An article in Handloader, by JB, said it might work well in the swift and it does, very well. I'm still a grain below max in my 7x57 and I'm very happy with it.
When we're done with the rain and social distancing I'll will continue on. This is one target at 100yds. It might be worth a try in you 7x57's also.
fallout 4 semi

Thanks for everyone’s response. This is going to be a long term project and I’ll be buying a few pounds of different powders some of which I’ve never used. But it looks like we will all have some down time with not a lot to do for the next few months. I hope its less than months but being realistic things are going to be pretty slow for at least another month giving me some time to do a few things and one of those will be loading.

Also, thanks to Mule Deer for giving me the heads up on RL-17. I was told the difference of it and most other powders was that the inhibitors were within its mixture instead of just being dusted on the outside of the powder kernals which is supposed to give it a slower peak pressure. I don’t know as I’m not a chemist or a ballistician but I knew something was giving it a little boost. I didn't realize it was a double base powder. I already have a couple pounds of RL-17 so I can use the money to buy the Ramshot Big Game. I’m excited to try it.

Thinking about having a lower recoiling rifle with almost the same performance as my .270 has me going. I don’t plan to use heavier bullets than 140s in it because I already have a .270, a .280, and a 7 Rem. Mag. for that. However, I’ve had my .270 for over 50 years and have only used bullets heavier than 130 grains a couple of times. My go to bullet in it is a 130 Grain SGK. If I ever use it on elk I’ll load it up with some 150 grain Nosler Partitions. That’s what I use in my .280 Remington and sometimes my 7 Rem. Mag. I’m not a long range hunter so I don’t plan on loading it with anything heavier than 140s..

This is a great forum with lots of knowledge and good people. I’m enjoying it more all the time. Thanks again for your responses.

I use nothing but Big Game in 5 7mm-08 Tikkas. Bullets from 120 to 150 grains. I also use Winchester Large Rifle Magnum primers. Fast and accurate.



P

Pharmseller,

Yep, Big Game is also the first powder I try in the 7mm-08 with bullets in that weight-range--but (duh!) it took me a while to suspect it might work as well in the 7x57!

WLRs are also probably the hottest commonly available "standard" LR primer, which often produces more consistent results with spherical powders, which tend to be a little harder to ignite than extruded powders. Which is why I often use them in smaller cases (such as the 7-08 and 7x57) with sphericals.

Yessir, guilty as charged, had a sat call coming in at anytime, and it did, I only read the OP's first post, hence me giving a one grain under Nosler book max load for the 140's, further verifying what you said, my rifle will eat 48 grains under 175's, others obviously will not.

It just so happens I just got this from Ramshot today:

7 X 57mm Mauser
Barrel: 24" ¦ Twist: 1-9" ¦ Primer: FED 210 ¦ Bullet Diameter: 0.284"
Case: WIN ¦ Max Case Length: 2.235" ¦ Trim Length: 2.225"
Powder: Ramshot – BIG GAME®.
Bullet weight: 139/140 grains.
Start load: 42.0 grains (ca 2550 Fps)
Maximum load: 47.0 grains (ca 2900 Fps)

I was also wondering how CFE223 would work as it is listed in the 8x57 on the Hornady site with pretty high velocities.

I've had very good performance with H4350 on 5 7x57's over the years. Just have two now, a Fwt. and a Rem Mt. rifle. Mule Deer did an article on the 7x57 over 10 years ago in Rifles or Handloader that basically used a chronograph to reach your optimal velocity and accuracy. Good enough for now I guess.

Filaman: I assume you've seen this, but just in case you haven't:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4019389/1

Also, here's the full post from Ramshot (that Moe mentioned) using both Big Game and Hunter. I believe it might be the result of their Quick Load calculations.

RM


Since we do not have any specific lab tested data on this caliber, we can provide you with some guideline, based on calculations and information from other sources.

Caliber: 7x57 Mauser.
Barrel length: 24”
Pressure spec: <56565 Psi/3900 Bar (CIP) original


Powder: Ramshot – BIG GAME®. (1st Choice)

Bullet weight: 100-110 grains.
Start load: 47.7 grains (2975 - 3075 Fps)
Maximum load: 53.0 grains (3275 – 3375 Fps).

Bullet weight: 120 grains.
Start load: 45.0 grains (2700 - 2800 Fps)
Maximum load: 50.0 grains (3000 – 3100 Fps).

Bullet weight: 130 grains.
Start load: 43.7 grains (2575 - 2675 Fps)
Maximum load: 48.5 grains (2875 – 2975 Fps).

Bullet weight: 139/140 grains.
Start load: 42.0 grains (ca 2550 Fps)
Maximum load: 47.0 grains (ca 2900 Fps).

Bullet weight: 150-154 grains.
Start load: 40.8 grains (ca 2450 Fps)
Maximum load: 46.0 grains (ca 2800 Fps).

Bullet weight: 160 grains.
Start load: 40.5 grains (2350 – 2450 Fps)
Maximum load: 45.0 grains (2600 – 2700 Fps).

Bullet weight: 175 grains.
Start load: 39.6 grains (2300 – 2400 Fps)
Maximum load: 44.0 grains (2500 – 2600 Fps).



Powder: Ramshot – HUNTER®.

Bullet weight: 120 grains.
Start load: 48.6 grains (ca 2780 Fps).
Maximum load: 54.0 grains (ca 3140 Fps). LD ca 106%

Bullet weight: 140 grains.
Start load: 46.8 grains (ca 2600 Fps)
Maximum load: 52.0 grains (ca 2950 Fps). LD ca 102%

Bullet weight: 150-154 grains.
Start load: 43.7 grains (ca 2450 Fps)
Maximum load: 49.5 grains (ca 2750 Fps).

Bullet weight: 160 grains.
Start load: 43.7 grains (ca 2375 Fps)
Maximum load: 48.50 grains (ca 2675 Fps).

Bullet weight: 175 grains
Start load: 42.0 grains (ca 2300 Fps)
Maximum load: 47.0 grains (ca 2650 Fps).LD ca 99%

I’ve been toying with Hunter and 160 Sierras, results so far have been good, though best accuracy has been on the lower end (~2450 fps). I am using a magnum primer.

I haven’t gone higher than 46.0, which produced an average velocity of 2525 fps out of a 22” M70.

Based on my rifle, I still believe 4350’s are a better bet. Might go back and work up slightly from 46.0 for Hunter though.

I wish we could get Ramshot powders around here. I'd like to try some.
No one wants to stock it because they have to buy too large a quantity, or so they say.

I haven't used my Chrony in about 4 years because I haven't built or bought anything new, can you believe that?
I'm gonna have to dig it out of the archives and dust it off for this project. Hope I can find all the pieces.

As for Temperature stability, I’m on the Central Gulf Coast of Texas, about 120 Miles down from down town Houston and about 82 miles up from down town Corpus Christi. It seldom gets much colder than 30 degrees here, although the coldest I’ve seen it was Christmas Day 1989 when it got down to 8 degrees. I’ve seen it from12 to 20 a few times but that’s usually the exception and not the rule. However, I probably won’t be out shooting in anything colder than 30 if that. But extreme heat is a different story. The hottest I have ever seen it in Port Lavaca Texas was 110 degrees F on September 05, 2000, but that too was a fluke. In Summer it gets up to 95 and maybe as high as 100 on average, so high temperatures can be an issue.

Back about 40 years ago I was working up a load for my .270 Winchester with a 130 grain bullet and IMR 4831. I worked this load up in either February or March of 1980 when the ambient temp was around 50-70. Being new to reloading at that time, I thought nothing of ambient temperature. I ended up with 57 grains IMR 4831 under the 130 grain Sierra Game King. I took it to the range and shot several groups with it at that time with no signs of excessive pressure. But then a couple months later I took it to the range to see if I could improve my groups. That was in May with temperatures up in the low 90s. When I first shot it, I noticed a smoke trail to the target. Then when I tried to open the bolt it was pretty sticky and I had to bump it open with the heel of my hand. Later I noticed the primers were flattened pretty good. Like I said, I was new to reloading and at first I didn’t have a clue until I thought about what I had read in my Speer Number 9 Reloading manual about flattened primers and sticky bolts. (However, neither before nor since have I read anything about or experienced anything like the white vapor trail to target.) The first thing I did was cut the load back from 57 grains about three grains to 54. Then I loaded ten rounds and went back to the range. No more sticky bolt or flattened primers. However, it was about 250 FPS slower. So going by guidance from the Speer book I began working the load up again slowly. I got up to 56.9 grains before I noticed the bolt getting a little sticky again and the primers trying to flatten. So I dropped it back down to 56.7. At that level I saw no pressure signs and checking the diameter of the case head with a micrometer showed no expansion. So I’ve called that good for the past 40 years and had no problems. Had I been a more experienced reloader at that time I would have dropped it back further to about 56.2 or 56.4. But the proof’s in the pudding I guess and after 40 years with no problems I’m calling that good. I could probably get by with another grain of powder in the winter, but this load gives me 3100 FPS so why push it and take a chance on shooting one of those hotter loads in summer and experiencing another high pressure event? I'll just call what I have good.

I have got some extremely high chrono measurements without pressure sign with RL-17 back in 2010.
But researching the temperature stability of that powder, I realized it was nearly worthless to me for hunting.

I would try to get 3000 fps 140 gr NBT with IMR-4166 or IMR-4451, powders that are temp stable, low Copper fouling, and available.

Let us know how the 4451 and 4166 work out. Happy Trails

John:

I was looking back through the 7-08/7x57 chapter in Gack I and noticed that with just about every rifle and load for the 139-gr Hornady ILSP you were getting sub-MOA groups, which was much more consistent than any other bullet except the 140-grain NPT. Even then, the IL groups were a bit smaller. Did you ever have a 7x57 or 7-08 that wouldn't shoot the IL into sub-MOA groups? And do you find that they're more consistent at the higher end of the velocity scale or somewhere below? The loads in Gack I look pretty near the top.

Thanks

RM

Mike,

Have always had good accuracy with Hornady Spire Points, even before they had Interlock rings, in just about any rifle. My first .270 was a Remington 700 ADL purchased in 1974, and after "accurizing" the rifle (expoxy bedding and ffree-floating) would average three 150 Spire Points in around an inch--at 300 yards.

I have three 7x57s , a model 700 remington, a 98 mauser built by mauser, and a bruno model 21 or 22 ( small ring mauser). I have not been able to get over about 2650 accurately with 139 gr hornady, or nosler ballistic tip 140 with any of them. and I have tried numerous powders such as IMR 4350 and H4350 4064 but none of the really modern ones such as big game hunter or RL17 etc. These loads were not really hot loads, but were full power loads, judging from extraction, look of primer etc. These loads were all extremely accurately averaging i inch or less for all power charges s I worked up. when they started opening up I backed off. but the chromo said 2600plus. I also have a winchester 70 7mm08 that I get 2850 from, accurately. I have sort of lost interest jn the 7x57 because I haven't been able to get adequate velocities from it.. Don't know what I did wrong. Its not as if Ill starve from lack harvested game as Im too much of a looney for that.

If I remember right, Jack O'Conner liked 43gr IMR4320 and a 139gr Western open point. I'had good luck with it in a sporterized military 98. Had forgotten about it 'til just now. Will have to try it in my newer ones.

Me too. I'd have to say that in every rifle I can remember, Hornady SP bullets have shot as accurately as Sierras.

.243 - 100gn
.250 Sav - 100gn
3 x .257 Roberts - 100gn
.25-06 - 100/117/120gn HP
6.5x55 - 129gn
6.5 CM - 129gn
.280 - 139gn
7x57 - 139gn
.308 - 150gn
.30-06 - 150/165gn
.303B - 174gn

When playing with a new rifle, I always try a Hornady as one of the first bullets.

In a gun in good condition, 2,600 fps with a 139-140 cannot be referred to as full power loads, in my opinion. If you get that feeling from extraction or primer appearance it is because those signs are not a reliable indicator and, maybe, your are producing cases with a bit of headspace.

Your groups could be opening up and then tightening back once you pass through that sour spot. Or maybe not, as each rifle is an individual but what is a sure thing is that 2,600 fps is not a full power load with that bullet weight,

I'd guess your rifles have really long throats and though the book may say you're at max loads, the pressure isn't there.

There is no reason why you should not look toward reaching 7-08 velocity in your 7x57. Of course much depends on what the throat length your rifle has but I have three riffles in 7x57. Two will shoot right along with the 7-08 and one, well I'm still trying to figure that one out. It's a custom that shows high pressure early on. For spits and grins I ran some of he last Hornady 175 gr. round nose loaded up to duplicate the 2300 FPS velocity of the original 1893 load. The Ruger #1A and M70 FWT did exactly that with great accuracy. The third, a custom based on an FN Mauser action went 150 FPS faster the the other two rifles. Chambering is very tight but necks measured after firing show plenty of room in the throat for proper bullet release. I talked with my gunsmith about the problem and he said he used the standard throat as used on the original Mausers, that is long enough for 175 gr. round nose bullets. So a short throat isn't the problem. I've even slugged he barrel and it's good there as well.

From the two rifles that are not having pressure problems I have can run a 150 gr. Nosler Partition at 2800 FOS with .75" accuracy at 100 yards with Re17. I have run the 140 gr. Nosler Ballistic tips to 2800 FPS using W760 again with .50 to .75" groups. Even the problem gun will run Winchester 145 gr. factory ammo into an inch. Maybe I should run some over the chronograph to see just what they do. First I have to find some. They're Unobtainium right now, aat least locally.
Paul B.

Just another reminder........as I do not want this bullet discontinued and encourage you to try it.
My our of the box, untouched Model 70 SG in 7x57 shoots cloverleaf groups when I can, using The 145gn Barnes LRX over 51gn of H 4350 and the Fed 210 for 2854fps.
There is no animal you would deliberately hunt with a 7x57 that this will not work on.

I use RE 15 with fantastic results.

IMR4451

I shot 150 gr Remington Corelokts at 2700 out of my 20" model 21 with no pressure signs, at this it was a joy to shoot, to the point of sitting down and going through seventy rounds at the bench for fun, 1/2 gr more and it knocked your tits off, rattled your teeth, and jumped out of the left hand.

The powder I used was ar2209.

added, same load gave me an even 2800 fps out of a Waffenfabrik Mauser...and it was a pussy to handle with the 150 gr Corelokts.

John:

I'm curious as to how far you are from the lands.

Thanks

MIke,
I don't know because I have stopped measuring that dimension, never found it of use as I set dies for accuracy not leade, regardless of where that may be.
I can say that when I was measuring for this rifle with other Barnes TTSX bullets the leade tended to be closer to .030" rather than the often quoted .050".
Because all of my past 7x57's had different throat dimensions, that is also a reason I stopped measuring and reverted back to die setting as the determining factor. It makes the routine uniform for every rifle and the most consistent in results for me at least.

The OAL I am using for the 145 LRX is 3.121"
John

I've shot almost everything for years with a 7x57, almost all lately with 140TTSX and H414. The chambers vary a lot, years ago I had a M70 Featherweight that I loaded with 4350, and the 140's were right at 2900, maybe 2875. I sold it and a few years later bought a Mannlicher Shoenauer with a 20 in barrel and they were about 2850, a while later I bought a Ruger 77, one of the first MkII, shot one of the original boxes of ammo in it and they went 2670 fps. Needless to say it had the long throat, I switched to H414 and loaded to near max using a Pressure Trace and it goes to 2925 fps, but you sure wouldn't want to put them in the Win.

I've hunted with it for about 30 years almost exclusively (unless in an area that something may bite) with 140TTSX and H414. I literally haven't moved the scope a click in all that time, and it still shoots nice .7 triangles at 100. It's been the killer in my safe, anything it looks at dies. I shot one buck twice, giving him a finisher at 6 ft as he had his head up. Everything else, including gemsbuck, kudu etc only took one, I have no idea how many whitetails it has killed, but the last one was a 20 in inside buck running at 368 yards. This one looks like hell, but I wouldn't sell it for anything.

jstevens,

Interesting that you have hunted with the 7x57 for "about 30 years almost exclusively" with the 140 TTSX. The TTSX was introduced in 2007.

John, I think you missed "almost all lately with 140TTSX ". OOPS!
Paul B.