I have had three of them. Two were the M70 Super Grades of about 1971 vintage. 22" barrels. In Australia they were priced just under a Mark V Deluxe in 300 Wby at the time. A 375 M70 was midway between the 458 and the M70 XTR in 270. Later I had a Ruger #1
My favourite loads were the 400 grain Speer with 70 grains of 4064 which did right on 2000 f/s (with the original Ohler 10 ad paper screens) and 70 grains of 3031 that was right on 2100 f/s. All three rifle were ragged hole stuff at 100 yards. Similar results with other people's 458s as well. Never shot anything big if you go to hell for shooting kangaroos, pigs, goats and emus with a 458, i will be there for a long time. It absolutely flattened stuff.
Recoil about like the 375 when loaded with 4064 and 2400 with 300 grains and 2600 plus with 270 grains, 68 grains and 71 grains. Muzzle blast much less, sort of flat bang.
I know that a of blokes have used full loads with mono metal bullets of 350 grains. I never did anything with the 350 Hornady as had a 460 at the same time and that is 3000 f/s stuff.
Of course if you had a 458 with the 3.6" length full length magazine you load it to equal the 458 Lott.
It just might be the most versatile over 30 calibre out there. A lot of fun for sure. Of course with cast bullets it adds another dimension. Maybe in these times of shortages you could make your own black powder and cast bullets. I thing the 458 would be similar to the 45/100 or 45/90??
I'm without at the moment. Never used it on live game, not even a piggie. But I have a Mauser with forward mount scope in 45 American that calls out for a chamber lengthening to the 2.5" version. I have so many empties and a few loaded cartridges so it is coming. The 458 Win Mag is still alive and well. A fine range toy if you can reload for cheaper shooting. And I can warm up my Lyman 458125 mold. Be Well, RZ.
I have had 2 or 3. I still have 1 in a Mark X with express sights. I have only shot rocks. The 400 and 450 grain bullets, do one hell of a fine job making bigger ones into little ones. I think it is a great closer range round, as it was intended. I bet it first round KO’s a kangaroo decisively. ———————————————————————
Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire
I have had three of them. Two were the M70 Super Grades of about 1971 vintage. 22" barrels. In Australia they were priced just under a Mark V Deluxe in 300 Wby at the time. A 375 M70 was midway between the 458 and the M70 XTR in 270. Later I had a Ruger #1
My favourite loads were the 400 grain Speer with 70 grains of 4064 which did right on 2000 f/s (with the original Ohler 10 ad paper screens) and 70 grains of 3031 that was right on 2100 f/s. All three rifle were ragged hole stuff at 100 yards. Similar results with other people's 458s as well. Never shot anything big if you go to hell for shooting kangaroos, pigs, goats and emus with a 458, i will be there for a long time. It absolutely flattened stuff.
Recoil about like the 375 when loaded with 4064 and 2400 with 300 grains and 2600 plus with 270 grains, 68 grains and 71 grains. Muzzle blast much less, sort of flat bang.
I know that a of blokes have used full loads with mono metal bullets of 350 grains. I never did anything with the 350 Hornady as had a 460 at the same time and that is 3000 f/s stuff.
Of course if you had a 458 with the 3.6" length full length magazine you load it to equal the 458 Lott.
It just might be the most versatile over 30 calibre out there. A lot of fun for sure. Of course with cast bullets it adds another dimension. Maybe in these times of shortages you could make your own black powder and cast bullets. I thing the 458 would be similar to the 45/100 or 45/90??
I have had 2 or 3. I still have 1 in a Mark X with express sights. I have only shot rocks. The 400 and 450 grain bullets, do one hell of a fine job making bigger ones into little ones. I think it is a great closer range round, as it was intended. I bet it first round KO’s a kangaroo decisively. ———————————————————————
A real Rocky Marciano or Jack Dempsey in action. Really something on the big Red males
LMAO !!!! My interest waned in the 458 once the 416 Ruger appeaed in a stainless rifle. Had entertained thoughts of a stainless 458 Winchester. I still think of doing it. I currently have a stainless 458 Lott. But, would be as happy or happier with a stainless Ruger or M70 classic re-barrel to 458 Winchester. I like the standard length actions more than the H&H length.
LMAO !!!! My interest waned in the 458 once the 416 Ruger appeaed in a stainless rifle. Had entertained thoughts of a stainless 458 Winchester. I still think of doing it. I currently have a stainless 458 Lott. But, would be as happy or happier with a stainless Ruger or M70 classic re-barrel to 458 Winchester. I like the standard length actions more than the H&H length.
45 and of course 375 have the bullets. We have a bullet maker in Australia that does different runs and all "blow things to bits" bullets and they are 30, 375 and 45.
In the early 2000s I had a lot to do with the Wby Custom Shop because of 378s. he bloke running the shop told me that with the 378, 416 and 460 Wby that all the reloading action was with the 378 and 460 and the 416 was a factory ammo deal.
I had both the 416 Remington and 416 Wby Mark V but I got out of them and because of bullets. Of course I realise when it comes to premium bullets for very big game the 416 is equal to any big bore but it is poor for other bullets.
Lot of blokes in Australia use the 300 grain 458 bullets and quite a few have both the 458 and Marlin 45/70.
It is quite amazing how well you can do at long range with that 400 grain Speer at 2000-2100. You seen to get onto the animals after half a day or so. I have shot the 458 with the 400 grain Speer alongside the 270. You do better with the 270 at first but y lunch time on the first day the 458 hold its own. I know this sounds ridiculous but a big bullet going slow seems to have "some type of feel" to it when it comes to range and hold over.
Agree ! In 1984, got my first .458 WM, a Ruger No.1H, in Blairstown , MO where elephant are pretty scarce, but I was ready, just in case. Then followed the pushfeed M70 XTR and M700 "Safari" of same 1984 vintage with which I hunted cow moose and varmint only. I learned of the 460 WBY, better for chest thumping purposes in more ways than one. The first three .458 WM rifles got traded off. I had a couple of Whitworth MK X .458 WM rifles after that, but unfortunately turned them into a .458 Lott and a .458/.416 Ruger. A 34-year career of wildcatting coincided with my neglect of the .458 WM. The .458 WM would have served just as well or better than the oddballs up to .510-caliber that I played with on bison, water buffalo and cape buffalo.
I am reformed, and I have acquired 6 more .458 Winchester Magnum rifles, including a Ruger No.1 of 1980 production. She must have been a safe queen ready for elephant. Their chambers will never be molested.
I figured out how to correct a .458 Lott Ruger No. 1, by running a .450 NE 3.25" reamer into it. Another alternative is to run a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum into the SAAMI .458 Lott. Thus, one can make the SAAMI .458 Lott the equal of the .458 WM-Unlimited by correcting its throat. That sort of .458 Lott Like Jack Built might even be better with birdshot and light bullets of 250-gr to 350-gr. Only with rethroating can it equal the power of the .458 WM-Unlimited with 400-gr to 600-gr bullets.
If you let the .458 WM have a MAP as high as the .458 Lott MAP (SAAMI 62,500 psi), and you use the .458 WM at the same COL as the .458 Lott (you don't have to go longer, though you can) the .458 WM wins every time. Just requires a bullet long enough to make the COL desired. Reduced loads and cast loads ? The .458 WM wins there too. Accuracy ? Elmer Keith was the first scribe that told me the .458 WM had no flies on it in that regard. Elmer was not wrong.
Here is a test image through the gallery here:
Pick the KE level you want and you can find a bullet that will do it with the .458 Winchester Magnum with SAAMI chamber. Powders and bullets are excellent now. For an "Express Rifle and Big Bore" there has been no improvement since 1956.
Mike and Jerry, It is getting mighty serious in the USA. I have changed the name of world's best express rifle and big bore cartridge from ".458 Winchester Magnum T!@#$" to simply the ".458 Winchester Magnum+" so as to avoid being sent to a re-education camp. The plus sign means whatever you want it to, know what I mean ?
Member gunner500 recommended the 500-grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer to me a little while back, so we bought out MidwayUSA's sale on those. Glad he told me about that ! Having experienced excellent results with several bullets and AA-2460, I suggested he try that powder with the TBSH 500-grainer and by golly if he didn't come up with a load, licketysplit and impossible to beat. He beat me to it. I will rely on its perfection:
Mike, I think the feel for the trajectory comes from the familiarity. Much the same as a bow shooter not using a sight. Ron has done a hell of a lot and collaboration with “The Mission”, and has held my interest in the 458’s. This prior year I have been focusing on smaller bores and lever rifles in revolver cartridges. Mostly the search for and acquisition of. Though have not shat-canned the 458’s. I have the Lott at the gunsmith shop having some work done on it. The 458 Winchester, I also have some modifications planned for it. I decided more or less on using the Barnes 450 grain TSX for both. I should have bought more, but have a couple of hundred for a start. I probably should have bought some 350 grain TSX to try. Several people seem to have had excellent performance with them on sizable critters. I just have a mental block / near distrust for shooting anything less than a 400 grain in the 458’s. The same applies with the 416’s and using less than a 350 grain. Anyways appears to be limited supplies out there now. I have sufficient brass and powder for both the 458 Winchester and Lott. In time, I definitely plan to experiment a bit with both 458’s.
Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire
Originally Posted by ldmay375
LMAO !!!! My interest waned in the 458 once the 416 Ruger appeaed in a stainless rifle. Had entertained thoughts of a stainless 458 Winchester. I still think of doing it. I currently have a stainless 458 Lott. But, would be as happy or happier with a stainless Ruger or M70 classic re-barrel to 458 Winchester. I like the standard length actions more than the H&H length.
45 and of course 375 have the bullets. We have a bullet maker in Australia that does different runs and all "blow things to bits" bullets and they are 30, 375 and 45.
In the early 2000s I had a lot to do with the Wby Custom Shop because of 378s. he bloke running the shop told me that with the 378, 416 and 460 Wby that all the reloading action was with the 378 and 460 and the 416 was a factory ammo deal.
I had both the 416 Remington and 416 Wby Mark V but I got out of them and because of bullets. Of course I realise when it comes to premium bullets for very big game the 416 is equal to any big bore but it is poor for other bullets.
Lot of blokes in Australia use the 300 grain 458 bullets and quite a few have both the 458 and Marlin 45/70.
It is quite amazing how well you can do at long range with that 400 grain Speer at 2000-2100. You seen to get onto the animals after half a day or so. I have shot the 458 with the 400 grain Speer alongside the 270. You do better with the 270 at first but y lunch time on the first day the 458 hold its own. I know this sounds ridiculous but a big bullet going slow seems to have "some type of feel" to it when it comes to range and hold over.
I always liked the look of the sledge hammers.They were one of the earlier pioneers into flat tipped bullets. The other was the Speer African grand slam, may it rest in peace. Tungsten cored, they would punch through a lot of metal for fun.
That'll work Ron, I told an old buddy about running 500 grains over 2365 fps from my 458....he said he'd need buy me a new chronograph ; ] I told him to bring that cash on out to the farm if he wants to leave it here.
Here's hoping the real start of the Iditarod goes off without a hitch and they don't make the dogs wear masks on the trail out of Wasilla.
Whenever you get a chance, please tell the missionaries to continue spreading the truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum at this thread.
That feel for trajectory that Mike is talking about with 400-grainers: His 2000-2100 fps is a useful skill, whether with cast bullet or premium like the Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN. Even though the great .458 WM+ can make the Woodleigh do 2600 fps, and the recommended impact velocity is only 2500 fps, if you get a feel for that trajectory, velocity will be down to recommended past 50 yards, so that might be a useful skill for large varmints at longer ranges, and plumb spectacular on smaller varmints at close range.
I am like you when it comes to using bullets less than 400 grains in the .458s and less than 350 grains in the .416s for large game. For varmints I am plenty OK with 250- to 350-gr weights approaching Mach 3. More to come.
Old maximal SAAMI .458 WM 400-grain loads can be easily topped for MV with 450-grainers in the .458 WM+: I have a good supply of the TSX and old North Fork bullets in that weight. More to come.
Some 500-gr business first, as inspiration for .458 experimenters.
Here's hoping the real start of the Iditarod goes off without a hitch and they don't make the dogs wear masks on the trail out of Wasilla.
Whenever you get a chance, please tell the missionaries to continue spreading the truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum at this thread.
That feel for trajectory that Mike is talking about with 400-grainers: His 2000-2100 fps is a useful skill, whether with cast bullet or premium like the Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN. Even though the great .458 WM+ can make the Woodleigh do 2600 fps, and the recommended impact velocity is only 2500 fps, if you get a feel for that trajectory, velocity will be down to recommended past 50 yards, so that might be a useful skill for large varmints at longer ranges, and plumb spectacular on smaller varmints at close range.
I am like you when it comes to using bullets less than 400 grains in the .458s and less than 350 grains in the .416s for large game. For varmints I am plenty OK with 250- to 350-gr weights approaching Mach 3. More to come.
Old maximal SAAMI .458 WM 400-grain loads can be easily topped for MV with 450-grainers in the .458 WM+: I have a good supply of the TSX and old North Fork bullets in that weight. More to come.
Some 500-gr business first, as inspiration for .458 experimenters.
Them buffalo back in the day were big varmints.... and 500gr at 1300 fps muzzle velocity seemed to slice through them like butter
I always liked the look of the sledge hammers.They were one of the earlier pioneers into flat tipped bullets. The other was the Speer African grand slam, may it rest in peace. Tungsten cored, they would punch through a lot of metal for fun.
Yep, RIP AGS Tungsten at $5 per bullet way back then. Those tungsten cores would drill through the jacket on a 3/4"-thick steel gong, leave a pencil-thin hole through the steel, and splash the jacket away from the gong. Hopefully the lead core in the TBSH will not be as prone to penetrate the naval bronze jacket. On game, no worries might !
PETA continues their assault on the race. And politically-correct / awoke / weak-kneed sponsors continue to fold. The mask zealots are everywhere. No more 450 grain have been spotted. Though, I did pick up 150 ea, 400 grain Swift A-Frames today. I would have rather they had been 400 grain TSX, but maybe one day. I do think these will still be satisfactory for most anything that makes tracks around here.
That'll work Ron, I told an old buddy about running 500 grains over 2365 fps from my 458....he said he'd need buy me a new chronograph ; ] I told him to bring that cash on out to the farm if he wants to leave it here.
Cash: Save some of that by practicing with old obsolete 500-grain Hornady RNSP seated to same depth as the TBSH. I finished off my old first-generation Hornady 500-grainers and have moved onto the second-generation InterLock. To maintain the 0.350" seating depth same as a TBSH at 3.550" (rounding to nearest 1/100th inch) Gen-1 COL is 3.500". Gen-2 COL is 3.480". When you get to 2300 fps with those in a .458 WM+, you have well and truly beat a .458 Lott.
80 grains of compressed H4895 makes a good practice load with Ol'Hornady 500-grainers at 2300 fps. Easy to go faster with ball powders and no compression. Heck, 2200 fps with some of the newer ball powders might do just fine for practice too.
Hodgdon CFE 223 is pretty slow burning and might require the 5-grain greater water capacity of Norma-made brass, to get over 2300 fps with such short COL. Norma is that much bigger inside than W-W Super and Hornady brass ! One of the faithful missionaries suggested CFE 223, and it would be dandy for practice loads from any brass case, clean your barrel while plinking.
Them buffalo back in the day were big varmints.... and 500gr at 1300 fps muzzle velocity seemed to slice through them like butter
But them thar bullets was paper-patched, soft lead, and at them low velocities was sho-nuff like a hot knife in a stick of butter fo' buffalo pokin'. Nowadays weeunz like a little flatter trajectory with smokeless loads and the rules has changed.
Would do if I had any old Hornadys Ron, cash deal was buddy about to call me a BS'ing liar, it was going to be a losing bet for him, I advised him to bring enough cash to buy the latest Oehler chrono setup, guess he didn't feel like losing 3000 bucks, 500 for the chrono, 2500 for calling me a bullspitter ; ]
Well then, I know you are a master caster and BPCR shooter rivaling your mentor Bill "sharpsguy" Bagwell. (Let us not mention how much better you are at +1000 yards with your scoped .338/.378 WBY with that new-fangled smokeless powder, so as to maintain respect for our elders.)
Have you tried the powder-coated, gas-checked bullets yet ? I bet the start pressure and bearing surface of a PC-painted FNGC from the proper mould would be closer to the TBSH 500-grainer than the Ol' Hornadys. The drill for smokeless, high-velocity loads in the .458 WM+ is to size those high-tech, homemade bullets (PC-painted, and gas-checked) to 2-thou greater than your groove diameter, and make them out of hard alloy about 25 BHN. Different from your buffalo-butter-piercers with BP.
Here is how H4895 (compressed) and AA-2460 (non-compressed) compared with my homemade 543-grain FNGC-PCP:
Subtract 15 fps from my 25"-barreled chrono velocity at 5 yards to get corresponding 24"-barrel result, if JES barrels are comparable to Shilen. Some guys say their 18.5" custom barrels shoot faster than their 22" Winchester factory barrels, however !
About 2200 fps MV seems to be the accuracy limit on MV with the BHN 25 FNGC-PCP. I now have a bee in my own bonnet buzzing about a hardcast 500-grain FNGC-PCP seated to 0.350" depth to mimic TBSH loads.
Uncle Bob ! Great ! Spread the word that we are here, having escaped the anti-free-speech site where lies prevail. I just closed the imgurdotcom account I used to post there. The truth seekers will have to come here to see any new material on the .458 Winchester Magnum as well as some of the old.
We will be moving on to 450 TSX loads after we finish a framework of H4895 basics, from reduced loads without fillers required, to stout loads, compressed charges of H4895 with heavy bullets. Those H4895 loads can be beaten in some cases (maybe not with all cases, pun intended) using the outstanding new ball powders that require no compression.
H4895, the extruded powder that built Hodgdon from surplus military version to current formulation from Oz, is the 30-06-of-powders in the .458 WM and .458 WM+. It may not be the best for every load, but it is the best in the broadest range of applications, and might even be the best possible for some loads. Bear with me for a review of 400-gr, 500-gr, and 600-gr basics with H4895 before we move on to big game loads with 400-gr and 450-gr bullets, and varmint loads of 250-gr to 350-gr weights, with other powders, ball and extruded.
We'll be getting around to test firing this eventually, with the fancy new ball powders:
2469 fps MV with the 450-gr TSX was done by me with AA-2230 charge 84.0 grains (at 41*F in 25" Shilen-barreled CZ 550 Magnum) by moving out to the 4th cannelure and a COL of 3.680". Not cool.
gunner500 has done this at 3.565" COL, which is very cool:
And Uncle Bob did this at even shorter COL ! Way cool:
But first, this is ready to go for testing of H4895 BASICS:
And then the 3.562" COL with other ball powders that will be hard pressed to beat H335, AA-2230, and AA-2460 ...
Uncle Bob ! Great ! Spread the word that we are here, having escaped the anti-free-speech site where lies prevail. I just closed the imgurdotcom account I used to post there. The truth seekers will have to come here to see any new material on the .458 Winchester Magnum as well as some of the old.
Ron,
Just checked and all the images/photos of yours on the AR/458 thread have gone
Mike, Are you telling the truth as usual ? That is wonderful news. The blasted imgurdotcom stuff is lingering on my devices. I guess I need to reboot here in more ways than one. Ha ha.
Uncle Bob ! I just closed the imgurdotcom account I used to post there. The truth seekers will have to come here to see any new material on the .458 Winchester Magnum as well as some of the old.
I had just figured out this morning how to make a better PDF out of the thread...when I noticed a lot of images had gone missing! Sorry to see that, but glad to see you posting here. I hope to have some new H4895/380 gr Lehigh Defense results soon.
come on guys we need to keep sending emails and calls to Barnes to start making the TSX in a 400 grain as they did for Buffalo Bore, I'm sure we will buy more bullets than Buffalo did for a special run, we have to keep bugging them and since Sierra bought them they just might, Ron good to be here. Karl thanks for the info on Ron and the invite. Jim
Hello RIP, er, Riflecrank! A little bird told me you had moved over here, and I had to come see for myself. That was also good because not only will I escape the censorship, but I had forgotten I had joined this forum some time ago. Looking forward to seeing what else you can cook up with the .458 loads, especially with CFE223. Do we count this page number for The Mission as 2 + 233?
Hello also CZ550, MikeMcGuire and other political refugees!
Man, I need some AA-2230 to get a solid 2450 fps with the 450gr TSX's Ron, have been on the lookout, and no Sir, I haven't shot any coated bullets in my rifles.
RIP, When I saw those pix, I knew where you had landed. And with several buddies I see - good show!
Bugger asked ",So how close to 458 Win Mag could you get a 45-90 in a strong rifle (modern 1885)? I think mine had a 28" barrel" IMHO, close enough to kill the largest DG! At least that is what my Miroku 1886 .45-90 with 26 inch barrel did with 450 grain NF, Punch, and Kodiak at 2150 fps. An ele, multiple buff, and a BIG old leopard.(300 grain Nosler PP at 2200 fps). These were all taken within 100 yards range, some much closer where you get to see the dust fly when the bullet hits.
You could likely tweak out a higher velocity, but it is really not needed for hunting + the added velocity might increase recoil.
i enjoy reading about the big bore rifles, i still own a 458 Win.mag,458 Lott,416 Rigby,450 Nitro,375 H&H but with my rebuilt shoulders i no longer shoot these fine Ruger #1`s i own ,these #1`s now are safe queens unless a Mammoth shows up here in the cold winter snow. thanks posting i sure enjoy reading and seeing the pictures. Pete53
Got a PM and an email that the work of The Mission continues here. Huzzah! Waiting for Accurate Mold's 46-394N to arrive. Bullet was designed expressly for the .458 WM.
The recoil of the above load will make your head and shoulder hurt and your ears ring ,been there done that, NO THANKS. Rio7
Well, whichever load you are referring too, there are reduced loads and light-bullet loads galore. Wear muffs and plugs at the bench and use elbow pads and a pad between rifle and you at the bench. Three pieces of high-density foam rubber cut from a butt cushion like used in ground blinds and tree stands. This allows me to fire 60 rounds per day, two days in a row with no ill effects from a no-brake, 9-pound-dry Ruger No. 1.
Those are three hits on big gong at 600 yards with a low-velocity, 487-grain Linotype, PC-Painted, plain-base "Government" round nose. Duplicating the rainbow trajectory of the bison-butter-piercers with smokeless and cast. I know, I know, sharpsguy and gunner500 can do better with iron sights and BP, but I am just a plinker, a rank amateur. The .458 WM can be fun.
Here is the "parts rifle" that hit the gong with cast bullets and can also be single loaded with too-long-COL 500-gr TSX "target bullets." It is a Pre-'64 Winchester M70 .30-06 action with a CZ 550 Magnum barrel set back 1/8" for 24-7/8" barrel, re-chamber for SAAMI .458 WM with 3.4" box length.
What a warm reception here ! Just goes to show how little is going on at ardotcom. My imgur account sure ain't going on there now. I went back to the political forum and could not resist leaving a Baby Ruth in their swimming pool today, it is a cess pool afterall. Let us see if DRG and Saeed ban me again for speaking the truth.
Hannay,
With the 380-gr Lehigh you cannot overload your .458 WM Browning Safari rifle with H4895 unless you compress the powder until the case bulges below the bullet ! Just pick a charge from the graph (above) for the 400-grain Speer, and follow Bob's lead. Use the Speer at about 1800 fps (63 grains) or the Remington at about 2000 fps (68 grains) or be daring and go for Light Nitro Express with 70 grains. You just gotta try the loads and find which ones make your rifle vibrate most accurately.
Hydehunter,
With the bankruptcy of Remington ownership of Barnes, is Sierra taking over Barnes Bullets ? We can only hope the old exclusive contract for the 400-gr TSX production going to Buffalo Bore only will expire sooner than later.
bcelliott,
Good one about this thread beginning on page 1 + 233. My first sampling of CFE 223 is awaiting weather to stop alternately raining and snow and for temps to get over 40*F. 2200 fps with a 500-grainer that cleans your barrel of copper fouling would be a good thing. I also note your suggestion of using the higher capacity Norma .458 WM brass to get charges of CFE 223 bigger without compression. But that is gonna kick a bit more getting to 2300 fps with more powder weight and slower powder than any other I have tried in the .458 WM+.
Bugger,
I used to think like you. My first cape buffalo fell to a .416 Rigby Ruger RSM Gen-2, 20 years ago. .416/ 380-grain GSC FN at just over 2500 fps, atop 105.0 grains of H4831, as recommended to Jack O'Connor by John Buhmiller for any 400-gr or 410-gr bullet. It was a bugholer with the 380-gr GSC FN and great with all the 400-grainers I also tried. None as accurate as the GSC FN.
That was during my period of .458 WM neglect. I call it my dark ages. Since then I have seen the light. Hereafter it is a .458 WM+ and maybe a .375 WBY for a second rifle if I am not allowed to take two chambered for .458 WM.
Man, I need some AA-2230 to get a solid 2450 fps with the 450gr TSX's Ron, have been on the lookout, and no Sir, I haven't shot any coated bullets in my rifles.
gunner500,
I learn from you. I am going to go back to AA-2230 and use a shorter COL like you did with the 450-grain TSX": 3.565" instead of 3.680" You must have noted that 83.0 grains of AA-2460 is a full load and got you only 2418 fps from a 24" barrel. BUT YOUR PRIMERS WERE NOT FLATTENED. We need a slightly faster powder to get pressures and velocities up, aye. I will SWAG again, I think AA-2230 is just a form of AA-2460 in which a certain percentage of the perfect spheres of AA-2460 have been flattened. The flattening allows greater weight of powder to fill a fixed volume with the AA-2230, and the flattened balls produces greater surface area of the powder so it burns faster.
To elaborate on your reply to Bugger about the .45-90, yours in an M1886, and his in an M1885 Hi Wall with 28" barrel:
Uncle Bob did a long throated Ruger No. 1 .45-70 Govt. with 2.1" case and equaled the SAAMI-restricted .458 WM ballistics. He called it the ".45-70 LT." Bugger could easily do it with his 2.4"-case in the 1886. I had a reamer made by Dave Manson for the .45-100 Sharps Straight 2.6" that had the SAAMI .458 WM throating tacked onto it. The Starline brass case itself (.45-2.6") is two grains of water bigger in gross capacity than the WW-Super or Hornady brass for .458 WM.
The .45-100 Sharps Straight 2.6" Winchester Throated (.45-2.6" SWT or .45-100 SWT) will handle any load I can put in the .458 WM 2.5". COL is just 0.1" longer in the former than the latter.
After I "invented" this I found it had been homologated by CIP about a quarter century ago (IIRC) as the ".45-70 Elko Magnum." Exactly the same chambering.
Some ammo for the .45-70 LT and .45-100 SWT:
Some rifles for the .45-100 SWT:
Ruger No. 1 with Pedersoli barrel: Add 2.5 pounds of scope and rings (i.e., S&B 4-16x50mm P&M II Mildot in 34mm rings) and it weighs 14 pounds.
Ruger No. 1 .45-70 Govt. re-chambered to .45-70 Elko Magnum aka .45-2.6" SWT, etc.: Add 1.75 pounds of scope and rings and it weighs 9 pounds.
Those two rifles are the upper and lower limits on weights of rifles that I have capable of .458 WM+ ballistics. I have fired 0.461" diameter cast lead bullets from both with good results, even the tighter Pedersoli barrel. That is mainly what they are for, cast bullets. The tighter Pedersoli is good for paper-patched BP loads too, like the Sharps guys might load.
Speaking of the devil, 500gunner sent me some .45-2.6" Starline brass so I got even with him by sending him some 450-gr TSX. Tit for tat.
pete53, jwp475, 451whitworth, jorgeI, and irfubar,
Buy a donkey (Afrikaans with a Kentucky accent for "thank you very much") for all the flowers thrown my way. Jorge, Todd Williams wanted to get in touch with you, Navy fighter pilot to Navy fighter pilot. I hope the old telephone numbers I gave him were still good. You were very wise to fire ardotcom a while back.
I have had three of them. Two were the M70 Super Grades of about 1971 vintage. 22" barrels.
I picked up a supergrade.458 in the 80s, and it looked to have some age on it, so I gather it was something from the 70s Wasn't too impressed with the stock inletting, how were yours in that regard?
I have had three of them. Two were the M70 Super Grades of about 1971 vintage. 22" barrels.
I picked up a supergrade.458 in the 80s, and it looked to have some age on it, so I gather it was something from the 70s Wasn't too impressed with the stock inletting, how were yours in that regard?
Agree, they were not that great in that regard, Although the checkering was very functional, being deep and sharp. They were vey business like looking rifles.
Yes checkering was well cut and functional with generous wrap around on the forend... Steel grip cap and double screw swivel base.
If sources are correct, Harry Selby waited so long to have his re-barrel Rigby 416 returned to him that he finished out his PH career with push-feed M70_ .458...His Rigby was away for like 8 yrs, so he used the 458 that a client had given him....it's mistakenly believed by some that Rigby London was to blame - Selby set the record straight that it wasn't Rigby Co. but gov. red tape at his end that would not release his rifle.
Although not his favored Mauser, Selby does not say anything negative about the push-feed 458.
Makes me laugh a pro can live by his PF but amatuer vacation hunters to Africa must insist on CRF.
You said "After I "invented" this I found it had been homologated by CIP about a quarter century ago (IIRC) as the ".45-70 Elko Magnum." Exactly the same chambering. cool .
Since I had a vague memory of such a cartridge, I did some research on the ".45-70 Elko Magnum." and found a old thread on the Cast Boolits Forum about a Beretta DR of that caliber. which may have been a Beretta shotgun converted to a .458 double rifle of considerable power . It even had .45-70 Elko Magnum stamped on the barrels. As soon as I get my Beretta .45-70 DR with 26 inch barrels a little better regulated with 405 grain bullets, I will look into that Elko Magnum! There are even some loaded 450 grain 45-90 rounds left over from their trip to Africa,
Going through my collection of .458 and .411 bullets, I discovered a long forgotten box of .458 North Fork 450 grain Flat Point Solids! Same bullets used in my 1886 .458 2.4 in Africa to put ele and buff to sleep. From 20 yards, frontal brain shots went through the skull, brain, and on out into the body ! Naturally they shot through the Cape Buff. There are even some loaded 450 grain 45-90 rounds left over from their trip to Africa, mmmmm Maybe I am not too old for another African hunt. ?
Riflecrank, if this works out, I may have to buy you a Donkey!
Canuckistan, I know what you mean. I am down south in KY and we might have had 14*F last night, warming to 21* for tonight's low. Hope to be burning some powder myself when the snow and "Cold Kentucky Rain" let up. Burn some H4895 with your 550-gr WFN-GC in your .458 WM, whenever possible, and let us know how it works. I predict excellent results.
I would re-chamber your DR to .45-70 Elko Magnum in a heartbeat. Maybe I better practice on my Baikal Spartan .45-70 DR first. The only other gun I have hand-reamed was an NEF/H&R 12-ga Super Slug conversion to 12 Ga From Hell 3.85". That might be enough practice. Send it on, I'll be careful.
Well doggies, glad you are still kickin', and wise enough to fire "that other web site." I have wised up too, some of us are slower than others. I do recall a shared admiration for the .375 WBY. Here is a battery to die for:
Hi Ron & Co, I see I need to look here for up to date .458Win info (I just use the 500gr on every thing) lol !
I have fitted the Brno ZKK 602 .458Win barrel to my Brno ZKK 600 action & with out any mag work fits 3 in the mag & feeds, I have factory rifles that don't do that, I'll do some work on the mag & hopefully find a bigger/wider mag box (it was 30/06) but my take off CZ 9.3X62 stock is stuck in the US for a while yet.
I think I'll bob the barrel off at 21-21.5in when I get the stock to see what the balance is like !
Welcome to the Master Buffalo Buster from Down Under, g'dye might, and buy a donkey for the spelling lesson. Those parts rifles can be amazing performers. Sounds like you have a star in the making. My Chimera WinCZechster is precious, CZ 550 Mag .458 barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action, in a Tupperware stock ! Between all of us here we ought to be able to come up with some loads you might like in your slick feeder. If the Three Stooges can design a SAAMI .458 Lott, aka the .458 Lott-Not, we can surely do better than that with a .458 WM.
Mine didn't have such a long rear sight base, otherwise that looks llke what I had in all other respects.
Had a fellow custom gun aquantance that scored a pre64. 458 bit over 10 yrs ago at a gunshop that didnt know what they had.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Theres two working rifles that come to mind - Shoemakers 458 and Selbys 416 (after many yrs in the bush) photographed where it had little bluing and no checkering...boring as can be visually. IMO it's a shame someone had the rifle restored, coz it killed some of its story.
Canuckistan, I know what you mean. I am down south in KY and we might have had 14*F last night, warming to 21* for tonight's low. Hope to be burning some powder myself when the snow and "Cold Kentucky Rain" let up. Burn some H4895 with your 550-gr WFN-GC in your .458 WM, whenever possible, and let us know how it works. I predict excellent results.
we are 4 buddies who hunt moose together and 2 of them has Ruger no 1 tropical in 458 and this bullets shoots 1 to 1 1/2 inches at 100 yards ( both rifle ) one moose was shot with this bullet at 1600 fps the moose was about 170 yards quartering away. bullet hit rear ham and existed opposite front shoulder when hit it just drop there the bullet was wheel weigh seized .460 and regular lube was used this bullet is usually shot with 64 gr. of IMR 3031 and the muzzle velocity is 2014 average but that day my friend had taken his practice load by mistake 1600 fps this his a custom mold my mountain mold this year I have a accurate mold 400 gr. with a large flat nose can wait to shoot it and give result my first 458 was a Winchester push feed in 1980 and shooting it with RCBS 400 gr cast bullet with 59 gr. IMR 3031 gave me 1886 fps and the deviation was only 3 fps and this bullet shot cloverleaf at 100 yards I have H4895 and I will try it out with both the 550 and 400 gr bullet and post the results take care canuckistan
I/m a fellow Canadian who had lived in the Montreal area from 1962 to 1975. Have been in Ontario since then. My favourite rifles have been in .45-70 and .458 Win Mag.
Thanks for sharing your loads. I've yet to use IMR3031 in a .458 but your results look promising. Like Ron, I've found H4895 to be my first or second choice for heavier bullets, and H4198 for 300s and 350s. Might give IMR 3031 a try, but first I want to find some AA2460. The powder that has worked best overall for .45-70 and .458 (as one powder for each) is H335, but AA2460 is similar, and perhaps a tad better for heavier bullets. As Ron has experienced, however, H4895 has a wider range of applications as a "one powder-do-it-all", sort of thing.
Man, I need some AA-2230 to get a solid 2450 fps with the 450gr TSX's Ron, have been on the lookout, and no Sir, I haven't shot any coated bullets in my rifles.
gunner500,
I learn from you. I am going to go back to AA-2230 and use a shorter COL like you did with the 450-grain TSX": 3.565" instead of 3.680" You must have noted that 83.0 grains of AA-2460 is a full load and got you only 2418 fps from a 24" barrel. BUT YOUR PRIMERS WERE NOT FLATTENED. We need a slightly faster powder to get pressures and velocities up, aye. I will SWAG again, I think AA-2230 is just a form of AA-2460 in which a certain percentage of the perfect spheres of AA-2460 have been flattened. The flattening allows greater weight of powder to fill a fixed volume with the AA-2230, and the flattened balls produces greater surface area of the powder so it burns faster.
And I learn from you as well Sir, agreed, AA-2230's slightly hastened burn should indeed give a full 2450 fps from my 458 Win Mag+, don't know why that figure is stuck in my head, 2415 fps would slay any creature out to a long 300 yards anyone would send a soft point bullet in to, the AA-2460 load would be perfect for 110 degree buffalo hunting, the primers are so round, with cases falling from the chamber, gotta be on the low end of sammi spec.
You guys are making my shoulder ache all over again! I used to get these velocities in my 450 Dakota and fully recall how unpleasant shooting them was! Glad I’m past that stage these days. If my 416s won’t get it done I’ll have to hunt other game. But it’s fun reading what all you guys are up to. RIP, I still love my 375Wby but these days my hunting doesn’t need it’s fire power. Hate to say it but I think my days of hunting in Africa are over. Trophy importation will be getting worse and eventually might end completely for any of the Big 5.
I/m a fellow Canadian who had lived in the Montreal area from 1962 to 1975. Have been in Ontario since then. My favourite rifles have been in .45-70 and .458 Win Mag.
Thanks for sharing your loads. I've yet to use IMR3031 in a .458 but your results look promising. Like Ron, I've found H4895 to be my first or second choice for heavier bullets, and H4198 for 300s and 350s. Might give IMR 3031 a try, but first I want to find some AA2460. The powder that has worked best overall for .45-70 and .458 (as one powder for each) is H335, but AA2460 is similar, and perhaps a tad better for heavier bullets. As Ron has experienced, however, H4895 has a wider range of applications as a "one powder-do-it-all", sort of thing.
I would like to thank Riflecrankcrank, Gunner 500 and others for this fine thread. Nice break after the political rancor of late.
I would like to contribute, full disclosure I am not a big bore guy and don't pretend to be.
About ten years ago I had a pretty steady supply of very clean BrnoVZ24 actions available. Local gun show guy would bring one to his table twice a year and I would buy them.
Anyhow in my gun building frenzy I got a smokin deal on close-out barrels from Montana Rifle Co. $75 a blank and he would contour them! Well he had a 1/12 .458 blank available so I had him contour it to a #5 profile. At the time a had a clean 1917 Enfield action, so the wheels started turning and out came the brilliant idea I needed a 460 Wby. so I box it up send it to I.T.& D. with instructions to chamber for 460 bee,
Well Dave called me and informed me the shank was too small for the Enfield action! darn..... so I sent him one of my VZ24 with instructions to chamber to .458 Win.
As luck would have it I found a heavy dense blank of Bastogne walnut on Ebay of all places, it was already profiled in a classic pattern for 98 Mauser... another bargain.. $85.00!
So I was off to the races. so a couple months later this emerged from my shop.....
This is my first and only true big bore... well besides a Marlin 45-70.
I didn't drill and tap the receiver for a scope as I decided express sights or nothing.
So I loaded some Remington 405 sp in front of 70 gr IMR4895 & WFFN 440 gr gc in front of 71 gr IMR 4895, and off to file in the sights well it was accurate for sure! despite my limited tolerance for 458 bench work! Then I orderes a Lee 500 mold cast a few up , powder coated them and stuffed them in with 71 gr IMR 4895, a new level of recoil...
So now I have 3 levels of power and as luck would have it the 500 gr is dead on at 50 yds and the 440 is a couple of inches higher and the 405 just a little higher than the 440. perfect, as the sights are not adjustable for elevation, only windage, I do have two more leaves but haven't filed them yet.
So far this has been a fun and satisfying project. Up until now it has been a range toy, but I have been binging on Cape Buffalo hunting videos..... so maybe? Everybody loves to shoot the .458.
I recently got a M70 Classic Safari Express 458 Win myself. Haven’t done much but a little shooting with some 300 grain Hornadys and RL7 but once I get some time I’m looking forward to limbering it up a little.
Hi canuckistan; ... Thanks for sharing your loads. I've yet to use IMR3031 in a .458 but your results look promising.
Bob ! I thought everybody started off with IMR-3031 in the .458 WM. I did !
Like Ron, I've found H4895 to be my first or second choice for heavier bullets, and H4198 for 300s and 350s. Might give IMR 3031 a try, but first I want to find some AA2460. The powder that has worked best overall for .45-70 and .458 (as one powder for each) is H335, but AA2460 is similar, and perhaps a tad better for heavier bullets. As Ron has experienced, however, H4895 has a wider range of applications as a "one powder-do-it-all", sort of thing.
I am sure you will be able to find Cast Bullet Nirvana with either H4895 or your current IMR-3031 and your 400-ish-grainers and 550-ish-grainers. Here is an interesting combo if you branch out into AA-2495 and Blackhorn 209:
Same scope setting, one bullet zeroed at 100 yards, and the other bullet is zeroed at 200 yards. A moose might notice either bullet.
You can do similar with H4895 or IMR-3031, no doubt. Get the 550-grainer zeroed at 100 yards, and see where the 400-grainer is landing at 200 yards.
Here are some pointers on the caulk backer foam rod used as filler, lightly compressed or heavily compressed, as needed, if needed. Try them and see what you think.
You guys are making my shoulder ache all over again! I used to get these velocities in my 450 Dakota and fully recall how unpleasant shooting them was! Glad I’m past that stage these days. If my 416s won’t get it done I’ll have to hunt other game. But it’s fun reading what all you guys are up to. RIP, I still love my 375Wby but these days my hunting doesn’t need it’s fire power. Hate to say it but I think my days of hunting in Africa are over. Trophy importation will be getting worse and eventually might end completely for any of the Big 5.
John55, Funny you say that. With my .450 Dakota I settled on the 450-grain North Fork bullets at 2450 fps as preferred load. When I emerged from my dark age of .458 WM neglect, I found that the .458 WM+ is capable of exactly that, with less recoil ! And where the .450 Dakota M98 Magnum holds 4 in the magazine, the .458 WM+ CZ 550 Magnum holds 6. WIN WIN.
Sad about Africa. The elephants must be culled or they will multiply beyond the carrying capacity of their habitat. Sport hunting gives them more value and reason to prevent their extinction than mere government culling. WIN WIN again. Obvious, I know, except to PETA idiots.
Thanks for sharing photos of your Winchester M70 .458 WM. I will have to trot out my Cabela's 50th Anniversary, supposed copy of a 1961 M70 African. Mine ain't exactly true to the original but it will do.
Thanks for sharing photos of your Winchester M70 .458 WM. I will have to trot out my Cabela's 50th Anniversary, supposed copy of a 1961 M70 African. Mine ain't exactly true to the original but it will do.
I blame Gunner and John55 for the 458... awesome thread. One of the best in awhile.
It is about time you and the Spruce King showed up here.
Have you got your green Cabela's roof on your new home build yet ?
Heard it through the grape vine: Saeed was born in San Diego, CA. He was an anchor baby before the USA made his royal highness's pearl-diving family rich. The America hater is a US citizen ! And the US Navy has a fleet parked off the coast of Dubai, U.A.E. to protect his ass. Also the webmaster at ardotcom is a light-in-the-loafers, leftist, Democrat employee of the anchor baby owner of the site who is complicit and approving of censorship of anyone speaking truth that they do not like.
RIP, I also used the 450 NF in mine, or the 450 TSX. Both were loaded up to 2550-2575fps, it was a handful but man what it did to Buffalo was simply incredible. Shot many sub 1/2” groups with them as well. That big case full of R15 was something for sure. I used the Lott before I had the 450 and it was much easier to handle, but by no means gentle! I’d think your souped up 458 would be similar.
If anyone can do it you can: Hit the 1125-yard gong with the .458 WM+ Here is a starting place for the suggested load for you to fine tune to suit your rifle. Remember you can load some ammo longer than 3.600" for target and gong.
BC of the 500-grain TSX is 0.412 according to latest Barnes estimates. 78.0 grains of AA-2230 found the accuracy node at 2250 fps from a whippy CZ barrel of 24-7/8". I went up to 83.0 grains for 2342 fps with decreasing accuracy:
My COL was 3.780". Shorten the COL and less powder will be needed for the MV desired, etc., plenty of leeway for fine tuning.
Assuming 2250 fps and sight height of 1.75" with 2250 fps MV +3.24" at 100 yards zero at 200 yards ~ 1 foot low at 300 yards (-13.17") ~ 3 feet low at 400 yards (-38.38") ~ 6-1/2 feet low at 500 yards (-78.24") ~ 11 feet low at 600 yards (-135.91")
Drop at 1125 yards = 881.88" = 73.49 feet for a shot on level target. 74.869 MOA drop at 1125 yards.
If you are shooting slightly uphill, drop will be less (angle for calculation unknown).
75 MOA will be more than enough, through a combination of forward tilt of a Picatinny base, hold-over with a graduated reticle, and dialing of the scope, with sight-in as above. Surely this is possible.
Wind drift at 1125 yards in a 10 mph crosswind is only 13.587 feet. Take a few sighters for the wind.
Good stuff Ron, I'd need to get some AA-2230 and 500gr TSX's, with your generous gift, I'm flush with the 450gr TSX's, would need to run the b.c.'s and vels on both to see what's the flattest shooting, need to get a 20 minute rail for my M-70 458 Win Mag+...........................do have a couple 24-36? Harris bi-pods for seated vermin slaying, would need to make sure and not shear the 6-48 factory threads, may need to go 8-40 to hold a heavy Nightforce under those recoil numbers.
I don't seem to be able to do anything without your help. Heckfire! The 450-gr TSX at 2450 fps MV does shoot flatter to 1125 yards than the 500-gr TSX at 2250 fps ! But it has more wind drift. Oh well, some sighters will take care of that just as well.
450-gr TSX BC = 0.369 MV = 2450 fps in the .458 WM+ Sight height = 1.75"
___50 yds: +1.42"
__100 yds: +3.00"
__150 yds: +2.82"
_210.3 yds: ZERO
__250 yds: -3.58"
__300 yds: -10.24"
__350 yds: -19.56"
__400 yds: -31.83"
__450 yds: -47..41"
__500 yds: -66.67"
__600 yds: -118.00"
_1125 yds: -823.03" = -68.5 feet: This will require less than 70 MOA of rail tilt, reticle holdover, and dialing. 69.86 MOA calculated by RCBS.
Drift at 1125 yards in a 10 mph crosswind is 172.8" or 14.4 feet. Take all the sighters you like. Yee hah.
Yes the roof is forest service green. Wife wanted blue. I wanted dried mud brown. So we settled on green . If I could figure out the pics I'de post one up. My left rotator cuff is continuing to improve . I'm looking forward to spring time and getting my loading and shooting hut set up. With a bit of clearing and been building . I can have a 200 meter shooting range on my homestead.
, between the both of us I know we'll get it done, and no trouble if I shear some screws, this rifle wont wear a scope when hunting Africa, I don't need optics to shoot a couch at 20 yards, just like my 505 Gibbs, those 600 grain Woodleighs are scope killing some-b's.
Rip, It appears I signed up for this site some time back but I don't think I have ever posted. So my first is for the Great and gracious 458WM. Best regards, Fury01
CTF, Excellent on all that, especially the homestead shootin' range.
gunner500, I now have range cards made up for the 450-gr TSX. Will use KY windage and TN elevation with whatever sights are on the rifle, out to 600-yard gong. Leaving the 1125-yard gong to you.
Fury01, Ol'Buddy, It is about time you escaped ardotcom. There are lots of folks over there that would benefit the world more if they would take up plinking with one of these, from an ad I found at Champlin's:
Fury01 reminds me of the cast 480-ish-grainer at sub-2000-fps that he has found to be so effective on deer and such from his .458 WM. Pleasant and sure killers. Some cast bullet loads follow that I would recommend. These are all done with 65.0 gr of AA-2230. The seating depth and the bullet weight are both important factors in how much velocity derives from that fixed charge of powder. The SAAMI .458 WM throat is the important factor in making them all accurate enough for hunting. The tight throat of the .458 Lott (only 0.459" diameter in its short length of free-bore) severely limits chambering of the 0.461"-diameter bullets best for accuracy.
The last one above is an example of a bullet that can only be seated to 3.385" in the .458 WM. To chamber a loaded round of this in a SAAMI .458 Lott would be impossible, without nose sizing the bullet enough to fit in the Lott throat. Of course we could also nose-size that bullet for the .458 WM+ and load it longer than possible in .458 Lott:
Bill Bagwell has used the 480-ish-grain, semi-hard, Lyman PH (Parker Hale) bullet at about 1300 fps (with BP) in his .45-70 & etc. Sharps 1874 rifles with barrel sights to take game in NA and Africa, near and far, bison to zebra, etc. out to 500-ish-yards. That RCBS 45-500 FNGC bullet has a shape very close to the PH. With its extra weight, hardness, and velocity from the scoped, smokeless, .458 WM, what is not to like ? Consider that all the above cast bullet loads were test-fired in a 23"-bareled M70 Winchester named Marcella, a very handy rifle. The 1:14" twist worked well with all of the cast bullets. Mine are all PC-painted, and most are gas-checked. Making your own bullets has much to recommend it, while our brass, powder and primers last. When it really hits the fan, FLINTLOCKS. Eat the Democrats first.
Ron, sorry if I missed it somewhere, but have you ever tried Trailboss in the 458? I believe a case full works out under 20 grains or so( dont take my word for it anyone, I dont have either powder or case to test, going off Prof Google here only).
Also getting into real rarified air, any thought on guard loads for the 458? Guard loads were the 8-10 grains of bullseye type powders in 30-06 with jacketed bullets for guarding civil enclosures in WW2. Velocities around the speed of sound, groups were actuallly pretty good 1-2 MOA, obviously very low report. Information probably of no worth for your project, no idea whether 'scaling up' to 458 guard loads is possible or dangerous ? but thought I would throw it in there anyway.
I have had three of them. Two were the M70 Super Grades of about 1971 vintage. 22" barrels.
I picked up a supergrade.458 in the 80s, and it looked to have some age on it, so I gather it was something from the 70s Wasn't too impressed with the stock inletting, how were yours in that regard?
I ended up with Mike's pair of .458's.
One I had re-barreled to .416 Remington using a Remington take off barrel and also had the action opened up to fit a custom made magazine that had 95mm Internal OAL which according to my digital calipers approximates an OAL of 3.740".
The second one I left in .458 Winchester though I did have both stocks refinished so they looked like a pair. I shot mostly feral goats and pigs with that pair before immigrating to the US where I bought another one that was Electroless Nickel plated and came with 2 stocks, being a pretty chunk of figured walnut like we never got in Oz and a Plastic Weatherproof stock that was already bedded for a nasty weather combo.
This one is very special as it has had a "master 'smith" work the action and trigger like no Winchester I ever played with and shoot, even Mike would drool over this one.
That Guard &Gallery Practice load article was a hoot ! I got the last 2-pound jug of Trail Boss off the shelf at the local emporium a few months ago. Same size as an 8-pound jug of H4895. Weird stuff, fluffy-light donut-granules. Can't even get up the oomph of a BP load with that stuff. It will be good for subsonic loads in a suppressed .458 WM if I ever get that Bushwhacker-46 can. Could be fun for rat killin'.
Here is Marcella the .458 WM+ M70 with 23" No.4 McGowen barrel shortened ftom a 26" to 23" so muzzle is barely thick enough (0.670" muzzle diameter). Next time I will go with a a No. 5 McGowen Sporter Contour. I am not getting any younger.
The First 6 shots fired through Marcella were to see how her true .458" groove diameter and usual 1:14" twist reacted to known ammo. It was no different than other rifles up to .459" groove diameter that I have. Hornady 500-gr DGX ammo is supposed to be 2140 fps in a 24" barrel, we assume at 70*F. Marcella gave 2125 fps MV. Add 15 fps to correct for the 1" shorter barrel and she is right at 2140 fps MV at 55*F. Hornady makes good factory ammo for the .458 WM:
The handload is a .458 WM+ standard of 400-gr GSC HV with 80.0 gr of AA-2230 +2500 fps in my 25" barrels (Shilen & CZ), the perfect "running deer" load. By golly ! The McGowen 23" at 2511 fps MV did about the same as the 25" barrels with .459" grooves.
After that I cleaned the barrel, then shot 50 rounds of cast bullets, the red ones I posted most recently above, Here is what Marcella's muzzle looked like after 50 rounds of powder-coat-painted bullets and AA-2230:
Riflecrank, my Wife is laughing at us again when I explained to her about trying for the 1125 yard gong with a 458 Win Mag+, she asked what on earth is The King and Private 1ST Class Knight going to come up with next? she did however extend full faith in our endeavors!
I acquired my M70 Super Grade ( 22 inch barrel ) after it being offered to me from a friend . All I had to do was buy $500 of factory ammunition and the rifle came with it . However , It did need to be re-blued so I had that done after glass bead blasting it to a nice matte finish . The original finish was that high luster blue on all of the metal except the matte frame . I guess that was the style back then and looked ridiculous . It all matches now and is the apple of my eye .
I have used it to hunt whitetail using 66.0 grains of IMR 3031 and the Sierra 300 soft point @ 2200 fps with absolute excellent results . That bullet between 2000 – 2200 fps duplicates my Savage smokeless muzzleloader and sort of duplicates the heft of the arm also …
I have been wanting to try the Hornady 325 grain 458 FTX ( rated for 1600 – 2400 fps ) and the Hornady 250 grain 458 Mono-Flex bullet ( rated for 1100 – 2200 fps ) on targets and whitetail .
You can use a 458 WM for other things besides extremely large and dangerous game . Just match the bullet and velocity for the intended purpose . I have several thousand bullets for my 14 inch TC Contender in 45/70 , and so it just made sense to buy this rifle .
Mike, A guy who had seen my rifles shoot approached me and bought a lot with the .460 included. I had sellers remorse and tracked him down, but he had unfortunately lost his shirt and sold most of his rifle collection to Cabela's so it was gone. He did have the .458 I sold him so I got that back and it stays this time. John
, between the both of us I know we'll get it done, and no trouble if I shear some screws, this rifle wont wear a scope when hunting Africa, I don't need optics to shoot a couch at 20 yards, just like my 505 Gibbs, those 600 grain Woodleighs are scope killing some-b's.
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more. Have a few TSX's in that weight and about 1200 TSX in 350gn and 450gn weigh on the shelf plus some 405gn Remington's but the one I miss most is the 400gn weight as I got over 5 feet penetration from the .460 using that bullet and it was an extremely accurate bullet. Also have a few loaded up in .458 cases waiting for a "special moment". Once sent a group to Barnes with 5 into .6 at 100yds from the .460. Shooting 3 under a half inch was relatively easy. Damn good bullet.
Mike, A guy who had seen my rifles shoot approached me and bought a lot with the .460 included. I had sellers remorse and tracked him down, but he had unfortunately lost his shirt and sold most of his rifle collection to Cabela's so it was gone. He did have the .458 I sold him so I got that back and it stays this time. John
John,
Years after you bought it I had remorse over that 460. As you know not only was the accuracy unreal but to duplicate that wood today would be a special custom shop order. And of course what makes it completely unreplaceable is Roy not being with us anymore.
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more.
I recall the magazine article you did about 20 years ago John on the 460 with 550grains on Bison I beleieve. A good read. What exact year was that anyway?
Years after you bought it I had remorse over that 460. As you know not only was the accuracy unreal but to duplicate that wood today would be a special custom shop order. And of course what makes it completely unreplaceable is Roy not being with us anymore.
Mike any idea who got the first 460's in Australia, what company or individual got one in? Also were you corresponding with Roy yourself back in the day?
Years after you bought it I had remorse over that 460. As you know not only was the accuracy unreal but to duplicate that wood today would be a special custom shop order. And of course what makes it completely unreplaceable is Roy not being with us anymore.
Mike any idea who got the first 460's in Australia, what company or individual got one in? Also were you corresponding with Roy yourself back in the day?
Karl
The agent was Michaelis Bayley and I think Mick Smith brought in some Weatherbys himself but not direct from Wby.. When I enquired it all seemed too hard for a 460 so I made my first international phone call and spoke to Roy. He was quite keen to talk to someone outside America. Anyway I ordered a pair and 120 cases for each and they had the 2.5X Wby Imperial scope in Redfield Swing Over mounts. The order still had to go through Michaelis Bayley but they were happy for me do the things. Roy was also big on it going through Michaelis Bayley and till this day that attitude makes Wby one of the most desired agencies for an importer to have as they will not send a rifle to anyone but their appointed agent.
Roy sent me a letter confirming the order. The Weatherby letterhead was unreal.
When the rifles arrived a shooter I knew took one look at the wood and decided to phone Roy and order a 224 and 7mm Wby. The 7mm Wby came and again top wood but the 224 had gone astray. After some investigation Roy apologised and not only sent another 224 (which was probably covered by insurance payment) but also sent to make up for the f uc k up one of the Mark XXII rimfires as gift.
In years gone by I had a lot to do with the Wby custom shop and I would have to rate them as about the best company I have dealt with and I don't just mean guns. However, if you do anything with them that is not available via the website it costs a lot.
I am fairly sure other 460s had come in. A bloke I knew had bought a German 460 and from memory it was a 1968 gun. But there are plenty of 460s and 378s in Australia now but very few 416s. I suspect the 416 lacks the big velocity of the 378 and the 460 power and also bullets for just mucking about is far better with 375 and 458.
The 460 John got off me I had kept in storage since 1971 and got it out about 1990. The other 450 was shot from day and had the [bleep] shot out of it.
early 80s, got my first Roy , .270 with exceptional wood , seller also had .300 and .340 with exceptional wood and 224 varmintmaster i picked up few yrs later , not so fancy...but boy did it shoot with factory!
When I purchased another Roy after that , the store owner allowed me out the back to the storeroom to open every box and I only found one MkV with great wood.
, between the both of us I know we'll get it done, and no trouble if I shear some screws, this rifle wont wear a scope when hunting Africa, I don't need optics to shoot a couch at 20 yards, just like my 505 Gibbs, those 600 grain Woodleighs are scope killing some-b's.
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more. Have a few TSX's in that weight and about 1200 TSX in 350gn and 450gn weigh on the shelf plus some 405gn Remington's but the one I miss most is the 400gn weight as I got over 5 feet penetration from the .460 using that bullet and it was an extremely accurate bullet. Also have a few loaded up in .458 cases waiting for a "special moment". Once sent a group to Barnes with 5 into .6 at 100yds from the .460. Shooting 3 under a half inch was relatively easy. Damn good bullet.
AGW,
I too use the 550gn Woodleigh in my .458 thanks to an article I read written by you in, I believe, The Australian Shooters Journal. The article was a review of the CZ550 in.458 and also because of that article, I bought my first .458 - a CZ 550 with the Hogsback stock. This was the start of my .458 journey and I've since owned 4 more and it has become my favourite cartridge.
So thank you twice!
The 550gn Woodleighs in the 24" barrel of my Zastava M70 reach 2080fps and cloverleaf 3 shots at 50m. I will be using this load to hunt Water Buffalo in the Northern Territory next year and I'm sure it will work great.
Years after you bought it I had remorse over that 460. As you know not only was the accuracy unreal but to duplicate that wood today would be a special custom shop order. And of course what makes it completely unreplaceable is Roy not being with us anymore.
Mike any idea who got the first 460's in Australia, what company or individual got one in? Also were you corresponding with Roy yourself back in the day?
Karl
The agent was Michaelis Bayley and I think Mick Smith brought in some Weatherbys himself but not direct from Wby.. When I enquired it all seemed too hard for a 460 so I made my first international phone call and spoke to Roy. He was quite keen to talk to someone outside America. Anyway I ordered a pair and 120 cases for each and they had the 2.5X Wby Imperial scope in Redfield Swing Over mounts. The order still had to go through Michaelis Bayley but they were happy for me do the things. Roy was also big on it going through Michaelis Bayley and till this day that attitude makes Wby one of the most desired agencies for an importer to have as they will not send a rifle to anyone but their appointed agent.
Roy sent me a letter confirming the order. The Weatherby letterhead was unreal.
When the rifles arrived a shooter I knew took one look at the wood and decided to phone Roy and order a 224 and 7mm Wby. The 7mm Wby came and again top wood but the 224 had gone astray. After some investigation Roy apologised and not only sent another 224 (which was probably covered by insurance payment) but also sent to make up for the f uc k up one of the Mark XXII rimfires as gift.
In years gone by I had a lot to do with the Wby custom shop and I would have to rate them as about the best company I have dealt with and I don't just mean guns. However, if you do anything with them that is not available via the website it costs a lot.
I am fairly sure other 460s had come in. A bloke I knew had bought a German 460 and from memory it was a 1968 gun. But there are plenty of 460s and 378s in Australia now but very few 416s. I suspect the 416 lacks the big velocity of the 378 and the 460 power and also bullets for just mucking about is far better with 375 and 458.
The 460 John got off me I had kept in storage since 1971 and got it out about 1990. The other 450 was shot from day and had the [bleep] shot out of it.
Bloody awesome story Mike, you got to deal with Roy himself. If you had stored the gun in 71 you would have been dealing with him back in the 60's I take it? My 460 was my first bolt action, I was a semi-auto guy before that. I got a 1993 Petersens hunting annual with the ballistics section in the back, was blown away by the kinetic energy figures and ordered one that week. It was a second hand lazermark with the pendleton dekicker, I believe the least efficient muzzlebreak ever made . Beautfiul looking gun, the african rifle crowd prefer English looking stuff of course, but I recall any time I showed regular people or even non gunowners a lazermark their jaw dropped and they wanted to touch it. Roy new how to package his weatherbys. Oops sorry to hijack riflecranks thread, weatherby memories can be very powerful things
Bloody awesome story Mike, you got to deal with Roy himself. If you had stored the gun in 71 you would have been dealing with him back in the 60's I take it? My 460 was my first bolt action, I was a semi-auto guy before that. I got a 1993 Petersens hunting annual with the ballistics section in the back, was blown away by the kinetic energy figures and ordered one that week. It was a second hand lazermark with the pendleton dekicker, I believe the least efficient muzzlebreak ever made . Beautfiul looking gun, the african rifle crowd prefer English looking stuff of course, but I recall any time I showed regular people or even non gunowners a lazermark their jaw dropped and they wanted to touch it. Roy new how to package his weatherbys. Oops sorry to hijack riflecranks thread, weatherby memories can be very powerful things
Karl,
First spoke to Roy in November 1970 as I had just got married in September 1970 and the rifles arrived a few months later.
You are right about the appearance of the Mark Vs and especially with non shooters. I had 4 rifles on RTM Alloy stocks and they were painted blue. Non shooters thought they were fantastic and from Star Trek. If you have not seen the old RTM Alloy stocks the shape and dimensions were based on the Remington 40 X stock and the butt and forend were a skeleton. Three had long Rem 700 actions with Jewell triggers and one had the Rem 700 magnum action with Jewell trigger.
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more.
I recall the magazine article you did about 20 years ago John on the 460 with 550grains on Bison I beleieve. A good read. What exact year was that anyway?
I think it was 1996. I lost a lot of copies I kept from a basement flood, so don't have complete records any more. Glad you liked the article. John
, between the both of us I know we'll get it done, and no trouble if I shear some screws, this rifle wont wear a scope when hunting Africa, I don't need optics to shoot a couch at 20 yards, just like my 505 Gibbs, those 600 grain Woodleighs are scope killing some-b's.
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more. Have a few TSX's in that weight and about 1200 TSX in 350gn and 450gn weigh on the shelf plus some 405gn Remington's but the one I miss most is the 400gn weight as I got over 5 feet penetration from the .460 using that bullet and it was an extremely accurate bullet. Also have a few loaded up in .458 cases waiting for a "special moment". Once sent a group to Barnes with 5 into .6 at 100yds from the .460. Shooting 3 under a half inch was relatively easy. Damn good bullet.
AGW,
I too use the 550gn Woodleigh in my .458 thanks to an article I read written by you in, I believe, The Australian Shooters Journal. The article was a review of the CZ550 in.458 and also because of that article, I bought my first .458 - a CZ 550 with the Hogsback stock. This was the start of my .458 journey and I've since owned 4 more and it has become my favourite cartridge.
So thank you twice!
The 550gn Woodleighs in the 24" barrel of my Zastava M70 reach 2080fps and cloverleaf 3 shots at 50m. I will be using this load to hunt Water Buffalo in the Northern Territory next year and I'm sure it will work great.
Russ
Russ, I got cloverleaf groups at 50 yards with open sights in a model 70 Winchester so it is a very good bullet though will not offer the penetration of a Barnes as I found out on game. What it did offer was that "thump" I mentioned previously as the animal is going nowhere but down. The buff was bled out in the field and still weighed over 2300 pounds on the scales before butchering. I would always have loved to take more large animals but the costs are prohibitive and writing income barely covered components if that. John
Ron; Could you post up a couple pics of Alderella. I'll be sprucing up The Spruce King soon and I really liked Alderella. Might get some Keeper ideas
CTF, I've been out of pocket for two days on a mini-vacation, traveling to far western KY to get the Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine, thanks to President Trump's Operation Warp Speed. I sure don't thank any Democrats for that. Strangely a friendly couple in my old stomping grounds notified me of vaccine availability sooner there than in my home town. He is a pulmonologist taking care of Covid-19 patient rehab, for the few that have a hard time with it. She, his wife, a registered nurse educator, is the daughter of Farmer Joe who was my buddy. Joe accompanied me on a local game farm bison hunt, learned to trap beavers on his property with me, so as to drain his flooded bottoms field, and allowed me to hunt deer and coyote on his property. Joe passed in his 90's, a few years ago. R.I.P. Joe. His daughter inherited the farm and says I can hunt there whenever I like. I have a Texas Tripod stand there still, which Joe chained with a huge coal mine chain to the oak tree it stands beside, 15 feet off the ground swivel seat. Here is how I appreciate Joe's daughter, with all due respect to her and her husband, who is my good friend the pulmonologist whom I would never anger:
Regarding pics of Alderella: Buy a donkey, CTF, for being the perfect straight man for my schtick. Here she is:
Alderella's range card is partially reproduced above.
The 400-gr GSC HV is an excellent deer bullet in the .458 WM or .458 WM+. Both Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker found the old Barnes-X 400-grainer at about 2300 fps to be better than any other expanding .458 bullet of any weight in the .458 WM. Best penetration in artificial media and quickest killer of big brown bears.
Riflecrank, my Wife is laughing at us again when I explained to her about trying for the 1125 yard gong with a 458 Win Mag+, she asked what on earth is The King and Private 1ST Class Knight going to come up with next? she did however extend full faith in our endeavors!
Alrighty then, THE MISSION is henceforth to be known as THE CRUSADE. Sir Jerry (member gunner500) and Sir Bob (member CZ550) are the first to achieve Knighthood in the service of King Four Five Eight Winchester Magnum. I serve only as Hand of the King. Knighthood is earned by service to King 458 WM.
I can say no more regarding Knighthood of THE CRUSADE at this time, except to say that "Knights of the 458 WM" are Crusaders for THE TRUTH, and the first step toward Knighthood is a pledge of loyalty to the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge. The Kingdom is the realm of big bore and express hunting rifles. King 458 WM has run circles around any pretenders to the throne, and he alone has been able to pull the figurative Excalibur from the stone.
"eat the democrats first.." That is how Chronic Wasting disease gets spread...
Touche', Fury01. I was joking of course, and you did me one better. We must also not forget the severity of meat contamination with mind-altering drugs that will be found in any Democrat carcass, along with the prions of Mad Cow Disease, CWD, Scrapie, and Kreutzfeld-Jacob. My pulmonologist buddy with the wife who owns the farm is also a right thinking man. Decades ago he began calling a Democrat a "DALD." Dumb Ass Lying Democrat. I am adopting that acronym, straight away. Also adding "DALL." Dumb Ass Lying Lottite.
The 460 WBY nostalgia is nice, buy a donkey to all you crusaders for that. I have a few fond memories of the 460 WBY also. Eventually, realization of the true potential of the .458 WM has helped put the 460 WBY behind me.
"who is my good friend the pulmonologist whom I would never anger:"
Medically speaking, are you aware of Ivermectin? Although of rather basic background for the last 40 years worming horses and de lousing humans, it turns out to be an effective anti-virus. All the usual sources are having trouble keeping it in stock for horses when the word got out that it can both kill/cure and prevent the corona virus in humans. Here is a link to a short report on some studies done in 2019-2020: https://www.healio.com/news/primary...ective-for-covid19-prophylaxis-treatment
If you want to learn how it has succeeded in Brazil, India, Peru , etc, I can post you a link to a longer slide presentation. Enjoy!
Oh, yes- my family does take it , as do several friends.
Yes I believe in ivermectin, wonderful how it enhances the human immune response, blocks Covid from highjacking it in the infection process. And it works in other ways against parasitic worms and mites and lice, and such, killing the parasites. I used to prescribe it for the kiddies mostly, I am retired now and sure glad I do not have to worry so much about treating DALDs with it. Since DALDs are a form of parasitic human, I always sweated giving an anti-parasitic drug to a DALD.
The Cold War continues, truth versus lies is what it used to be about and still is. Eventually truth will prevail.
Very cool the way your 460 WBY reduced load with 65 grains of AA-5744 and 480-grainer has turned it into the equivalent of a .458 WM reduced load with 65 grains of AA-2230 and 480-grainer. Near identical MV and pressure. Recoil would be near identical in same weight rifles too. Outstanding.
Wasn't there someone in the other place that had a 458 with an 18" barrel ? I may need to do that. Make an 18" barreled Spruce King. Yes I will be giving up a little velocity. But will gain so much in portability. Maybe go 17" with an ear buster on the muzzle end of it.
Tim Sundles is the proprietor of Buffalo Bore ammo, exclusive receiver of Barnes 400-gr TSX production lately. He claims that his 18" Marquart-barreled custom M70 .458 WM is faster by a few feet per second than his factory-barreled 22" M70 .458 WM. 18" MV = 2250 fps 22" MV = 2247 fps Both rifles get his 400-grainer loads up to around 2250 fps. 2250 fps is the advertised velocity with the ammo he sells for 6 dollars per pop, $120 per box of 20, barrel length not actually specified on box. We usually assume advertised velocities for the .458 WM nowadays are for 24" barrels. Surely Buffalo Bore easily does that.
(That was before the current DALD-induced ammo-buying frenzy, Buffalo Bore's website is currently closed so they can catch up on the backlog of orders. I will correct any specifics later if I get any of this wrong, off the top of my head.)
Mr. Sundles claims his faster and shorter barrel does it by somehow being smoother finished and slicker inside. I suspect other things too, like tighter bore/groove and/or shorter-than-SAAMI throat in the custom rifle, either of which would jack up the pressures, and limit the maximum MV obtainable within 60,000 psi MAP. Maybe that is why he claims no more than 2250 fps for his ammo ? Higher velocity might blow a gasket in his 18" custom rifle. Maybe he has an unusually slow factory 22" rifle ? The standard SAAMI .458 WM is capable of 2400 fps with a 400-grainer from a 24" barrel. By going down to 18" barrel and handloading any 400-grainer you like in your SAAMI .458 WM, 2250 fps is realistic. From 24" to 20" shortening you will lose about 20 fps per inch, and greater loss per inch below 20" barrel length. You gain only about 10 fps per inch of barrel above 24" length. Personally, I like a .458WM barrel of 23" to 25", or 24" average. 23" velocity gets a +15 fps correction. 25" velocity gets a -15 fps correction. 24" is a better number nowadays for universal comparison of velocities amongst Crusaders. (I am making up rules of THUMB as HAND of the King.) The King of this realm is TRUTH about the .458 WM.
CTF, Remember you can shoot .458 WM+ ammo at 3.395" COL in your Ruger .458 WM M77 Mark II, like Alderella. Add 100 fps to SAAMI-velocity ammo. .458 WM+ ammo in the Spruce King might be capable of 2350 to 2400 fps. What is the fastest you have done ? 19" barrel ?
If you persist in this short-barrel stuff, you will earn the title of Sir Shorty, Crusader Knight of the realm. Not a bad thing, 400-grainer at 2250 to 2300 fps. With the old X-bullet at that velocity, Aagaard and Shoemaker said that was a better penetrator and big game killer than any other bullet they knew of, and they knew of many. Read the .458 Winchester introduction, page 715, in BARNES RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER 3, dated 2001, by honest Phil Shoemaker, who prefers a 21" barrel on his .458 WM Mauser.
(Phil's standard handload with the old Hornady RNSP in 21" barreled .458 WM was 70 grains of IMR-3031 for 2040 fps, don't know if that was corrected to MV, might have been over 2050 fps MV for 21" barrel, not a maximal load, even by SAAMI rules.)
That must have been written in the 2000-2001 period before the Commercial Cabal started up the propaganda program of .458 Winchester Magnum Denial, in preparation for the .458 Lott hitting the gunshops in 2002. Big bore sales were stagnant since so many .458 WM owners knew they needed nothing more. Time for some brainwashing !
There are so many parallels of the past with the current day Cold War of truth versus lies. Heard today that the DALDs want to have a new government "Reality Czar" like the "Ministry of Truth" in George Orwell's 1984. Only government-approved lies will be allowed to be called "truth." That is like saying the .458 Lott is a better cartridge than the .458 Winchester Magnum.
, between the both of us I know we'll get it done, and no trouble if I shear some screws, this rifle wont wear a scope when hunting Africa, I don't need optics to shoot a couch at 20 yards, just like my 505 Gibbs, those 600 grain Woodleighs are scope killing some-b's.
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more. Have a few TSX's in that weight and about 1200 TSX in 350gn and 450gn weigh on the shelf plus some 405gn Remington's but the one I miss most is the 400gn weight as I got over 5 feet penetration from the .460 using that bullet and it was an extremely accurate bullet. Also have a few loaded up in .458 cases waiting for a "special moment". Once sent a group to Barnes with 5 into .6 at 100yds from the .460. Shooting 3 under a half inch was relatively easy. Damn good bullet.
NICE! my Tanzania PH said he will shoot nothing but 550gr Woodleigh softs and solids in his 450 Rigby.
Riflecrank, my Wife is laughing at us again when I explained to her about trying for the 1125 yard gong with a 458 Win Mag+, she asked what on earth is The King and Private 1ST Class Knight going to come up with next? she did however extend full faith in our endeavors!
Alrighty then, THE MISSION is henceforth to be known as THE CRUSADE. Sir Jerry (member gunner500) and Sir Bob (member CZ550) are the first to achieve Knighthood in the service of King Four Five Eight Winchester Magnum. I serve only as Hand of the King. Knighthood is earned by service to King 458 WM.
I can say no more regarding Knighthood of THE CRUSADE at this time, except to say that "Knights of the 458 WM" are Crusaders for THE TRUTH, and the first step toward Knighthood is a pledge of loyalty to the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge. The Kingdom is the realm of big bore and express hunting rifles. King 458 WM has run circles around any pretenders to the throne, and he alone has been able to pull the figurative Excalibur from the stone.
10-4, "The Crusade" it shall be Oh Mighty Right Hand of The King"........................Perfect, in other news, I have a Buddy looking for a Nightforce 20 MOA rail for a Model 70 Classic, and another with a hard ear to the ground in search of some AA-2230.
Your endeavors are most noble. 20 MOA from the base is a good beginning of the quest to hit the 1125-yard gong with your lovely .458 WM+. Can you actually hear the hit from that far away when you are using the .338/378 WBY ? If so, how many seconds from firing do you hear the hit ? How many MOA additional can you get from your scope adjustments and your reticle holdover, without going to a blue-sky hold ? Have you got a pet name for your .458 WM+ M70 ? Remember that a female name is customary, even though Daniel Boone called his rifle "Tick Licker" because he could remove ticks from his hounds at 100 yards with that baby.
I need ideas for naming my next one that will be the resut of these two having a baby:
Ron, I have never owned a 458win but once bought a packet of ammo and coveted a zastava 458 in the 90's. I also read the histories, including the sacred texts of St Aagard, and have never maligned the calibre or taken it in vain. In fact I several times defended it against folks bringing up the issue of old compacted ball powder loads . I don't aspire to knighthood being without a horse aka 458 in the stable but consider me a man-at-arms sworn to defend the thread from whomsoever unbeliever doth defile it. That took about 15min to type on a smartphone btw lol .how do folks manage chatting on them..
That was the first fire in the new house. Nothing overly fancy unless you consider a house that will go thru a 8 month winter burning less than 3 cord of firewood and not more than 50 gallons of #1 heating oil. While maintaining 75° F . Fancy.
That was the first fire in the new house. Nothing overly fancy unless you consider a house that will go thru a 8 month winter burning less than 3 cord of firewood and not more than 50 gallons of #1 heating oil. While maintaining 75° F . Fancy.
But I see daylight between the OSB..... me thinks 3 cords won't be enough.....
Ron, I have never owned a 458win but once bought a packet of ammo and coveted a zastava 458 in the 90's. I also read the histories, including the sacred texts of St Aagard, and have never maligned the calibre or taken it in vain. In fact I several times defended it against folks bringing up the issue of old compacted ball powder loads . I don't aspire to knighthood being without a horse aka 458 in the stable but consider me a man-at-arms sworn to defend the thread from whomsoever unbeliever doth defile it.
Squire Karl is a Knight in the making, just needs a good horse.
That is excellent homesteading going on there. Wish I had such a life. Picture posting advances the Campfire Crusade for Truth. Don't forget Spruce King, or are you going to have me dig up an old pic ? 19" barreled .458 WM ? How fast with those 400-grain Barnes Original varmint bullets ?
It's a shame that bloke wit the Shiloh Sharps rifles is not here, was it SharpsGuy or similar. He could certainly illustrate long range hits in the field with only 1300 f/s.
As I posted before I did as well on roos, pigs, goats and emus with the 400 grain Speer at 2000 -2100 as I did with the 270.You can certainly get a feel for very long range with big bullets going slow. Many years ago I was away shooting with a mate and we stopped on the property where you could see part of a small river and its bank. He had a 7mm Remington with him and I had 375 H&H with 300 grain round nose Hornady and 68 grain of 4064 for 2400 f/s plus. I said to him to see if he could land a bullet at the edge of the river/bank. It was a real long way off. He fired and nothing. So I let go with the 375 and hit right at the edge of the bank.
I’ve got a Ruger Number 1 SS/Laminate that was a 45-70 and was rechambered to 45-90 I haven’t gotten a chance to give fresh air yet, but man, I’ve got a pile of Starline brass for it and it may give the 458 Win a run for its money in that #1!
Likin this thread! I’m ready for Gunner to put some 450’s on steel at 1100+! I know the old boy has it in him!
Sir Mike, Crusader Knight of Truth, Good dig at Squire Karl for not owning a .458 WM, thank you. I telephoned sharpsguy about a month ago. His devoted understudy, gunner500 is in closer contact with him, geographically as well. We are hoping he will join in here. I have his images that were wiped off ardotcom, thank God ! Such poetry should not be wasted on reciting to a cess pool. Using .458 cast bullets at 1300 fps with a BPCR to shoot tiny groups and knock over game at 500-yards is high art, worth repeating here, very applicable to the .458 WM and ,458 WM+ with either smokeless or BP. I will call sharpsguy again and see how things are shaking.
I’ve got a Ruger Number 1 SS/Laminate that was a 45-70 and was rechambered to 45-90 I haven’t gotten a chance to give fresh air yet, but man, I’ve got a pile of Starline brass for it and it may give the 458 Win a run for its money in that #1!
Likin this thread! I’m ready for Gunner to put some 450’s on steel at 1100+! I know the old boy has it in him!
If you have enough throat you will have no problem equaling the SAAMI .458 WM with your 2.4" cased 45-90. Your shoulder will let you know when you get there with a 7.25-pound pounder. I did the same with the Starline brass .45-2.6" for .45-100. My 7.25# Ruger No. 1 was re-chambered from .45-70 Govt. factory rifle to .45-70 Elko Magnum aka .45-100 Sharps Winchester Throated. Yes, I re-invented the wheel, exactly.
Whilst waiting for a reply from Sir Spruce/CTF about his Spruce King .458 WM, here is 20"-barreled Ruger M77 .458 WM belonging to Gustavo from ardotcom (someone tell him to flee there and relocate here):
The 400-grain Woodleigh PPSN and HYDRO might be knocking onthe door of 2500 fps MV even in a 20"-barreled .458 WM+. 3.395" COL works in those Ruger M77 magazine rifles:
400-gr Woodleigh PPSN results above are from my 25" Shilen barrel.
I’ve got a Ruger Number 1 SS/Laminate that was a 45-70 and was rechambered to 45-90 I haven’t gotten a chance to give fresh air yet, but man, I’ve got a pile of Starline brass for it and it may give the 458 Win a run for its money in that #1!
Likin this thread! I’m ready for Gunner to put some 450’s on steel at 1100+! I know the old boy has it in him!
If you have enough throat you will have no problem equaling the SAAMI .458 WM with your 2.4" cased 45-90. Your shoulder will let you know when you get there with a 7.25-pound pounder. I did the same with the Starline brass .45-2.6" for .45-100. My 7.25# Ruger No. 1 was re-chambered from .45-70 Govt. factory rifle to .45-70 Elko Magnum aka .45-100 Sharps Winchester Throated. Yes, I re-invented the wheel, exactly.
Dang, now I am looking forward to messing with it.
I have a couple boxes of the Hornady 250 copper Flex Tips. Wanted to see how fast I could make them scoot!
No Buffalo here in Va, but the bucks get a little rowdy!
You mean some people don’t have a 458?! Ruger No.1 and a 77 here!.. and yes I’ve taken small deer with them. Don’t plan to go to Africa, just a fun gun to shoot, handload for, and occasionally hunt deer with.
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more.
I recall the magazine article you did about 20 years ago John on the 460 with 550grains on Bison I beleieve. A good read. What exact year was that anyway?
I think it was 1996. I lost a lot of copies I kept from a basement flood, so don't have complete records any more. Glad you liked the article. John
Sorry to hear that John. If anyone does have a copy still living I'd be interested to obtain one
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more.
I recall the magazine article you did about 20 years ago John on the 460 with 550grains on Bison I beleieve. A good read. What exact year was that anyway?
I think it was 1996. I lost a lot of copies I kept from a basement flood, so don't have complete records any more. Glad you liked the article. John
Sorry to hear that John. If anyone does have a copy still living I'd be interested to obtain one
Originally Posted by MikeMcGuire
Originally Posted by 158XTP
Ron, I have never owned a 458win
That is disgusting Karl but we will let you off since you had a 460 and so have shot 458 bullets.
Haha thanks Mike the funny thing too is I ordered the 460 right after reading the Petersen's annual and then asked for ammo, dies and '.460 calibre projectiles." That's how green I was, an 18 year old with an skk and spas-12 to the world's most powerful factory elephant gun in 1 day.
That is indeed a bit humorous, you being a precocious 18 y.o. ordering his first bolt action and it was a 460 Weatherby Magnum and don't forget the .460-caliber projectiles !
Sir Spruce,
I forget, is that a 19" Shilen No.5 Sporter on Spruce King ? You need to spruce up that butt pad when you get settled from sprucing up your Homestead. Then you will be back in the saddle of a grand horse for the Crusade.
A bit of business: I am not really the Hand of the King. Cartridges do not have hands nor communicate other than by ballistics and functionality. So I am just going to drop the charade and call myself a "Knight of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum."
Mission statement and pledge: "We crusade for truth about the king of cartridges, the .458 Winchester Magnum."
Founding Knights, by age before beauty:
Sir Bob (CZ550) Sir Ron (Riflecrank) Sir Jerry(gunner500)
Grandfathered Knight Musketeers, all for one and one for all:
Sir Mike (MikeMcGuire) Sir Spruce (CTF) Sir Dennis (Fury01)
Any current Knight above who considers his "sir" name to be spurious (assigned by me) may have it changed. Speak soon or forever hold your title.
Other members here who wish to join this "Campfire Crusade" as Knights must have owned and used a .458 Winchester Magnum and make at least six posts/replies to this thread that are pertinent to the King of Cartridges. On his seventh post he may state the Knighthood handle he prefers (the "sir" name) and be recognized as "Sir Whatever, Knight of the Crusade for Truth."
MidwayUSA sent out a notification yesterday AM that the Norma .458 WM brass had arrived. I went there later that morning and it was already all sold out ! They do not allow backorders on that stuff for some reason. They only allow notifications of "in stock" status when it arrives, and first come, first served. This bird was not early enough to get the worm. That brass sold out in a few minutes or hours, first morning it was back in stock ! The .458 WM has a faithful following, long and true and growing, more so than the upstart .458 Lott !
That is indeed a bit humorous, you being a precocious 18 y.o. ordering his first bolt action and it was a 460 Weatherby Magnum and don't forget the .460-caliber projectiles !
Sir Spruce,
I forget, is that a 19" Shilen No.5 Sporter on Spruce King ? You need to spruce up that butt pad when you get settled from sprucing up your Homestead. Then you will be back in the saddle of a grand horse for the Crusade.
A bit of business: I am not really the Hand of the King. Cartridges do not have hands nor communicate other than by ballistics and functionality. So I am just going to drop the charade and call myself a "Knight of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum."
Mission statement and pledge: "We crusade for truth about the king of cartridges, the .458 Winchester Magnum."
Founding Knights, by age before beauty:
Sir Bob (CZ550) Sir Ron (Riflecrank) Sir Jerry(gunner500)
Grandfathered Knight Musketeers, all for one and one for all:
Sir Mike (MikeMcGuire) Sir Spruce (CTF) Sir Dennis (Fury01)
Any current Knight above who considers his "sir" name to be spurious (assigned by me) may have it changed. Speak soon or forever hold your title.
Other members here who wish to join this "Campfire Crusade" as Knights must have owned and used a .458 Winchester Magnum and make at least six posts/replies to this thread that are pertinent to the King of Cartridges. On his seventh post he may state the Knighthood handle he prefers (the "sir" name) and be recognized as "Sir Whatever, Knight of the Crusade for Truth."
Yup . Sir Spruce it is !
I think I'm gonna find a walnut board and form filler cheeks of some sort on the butt of the canoe paddle. Then attach a high powered Sorbathane recoil pad.
Sir Spruce, aka CTF, If you are asking about my Ruger M77 .458 WM, (Alderella) it is an M77 Mk II from the later 1990's, that was originally a 7mm Rem, Mag., re-barreled to .458 WM, like the Spruce King.
If you are asking about Gustavo's Ruger M77 .458 WM, it is a re-barrel based on either the M77 Hawkeye or the M77 Mk II. I do not recall which, he will have to say.
About the only difference between a Hawkeye and Mk II is the factory trigger mechanism.
You do not need walnut cheeks on the Zytel stock. Put a steel or aluminum plate on the butt end of the Zytel before you put the recoil pad on. Grind it to match the recoil pad and it is like a silver or blued-line spacer between the pad and the stock. Walnut butt cheeks nicely finished might be a hoot, however. Then do grip panels to match.
You do not need walnut cheeks on the Zytel stock. Put a steel or aluminum plate on the butt end of the Zytel before you put the recoil pad on. Grind it to match the recoil pad and it is like a silver or blued-line spacer between the pad and the stock. Walnut butt cheeks nicely finished might be a hoot, however. Then do grip panels to match.
That's what I was thinking . walnut butt cheeks 😜😀 .
I tapped the wrong thingy. I was asking Alaninga about his M77. I should have. [Quoted] him instead of reply.
19" plus the brake. Since the last time I had the barrel off SK was the last time its ever coming off. Ill need to build a whole new rifle to get an 18" I'll go with the same Shilen contour. Stiff and stubby.
Sir Spruce, Your 19" Shilen ought to be about 120 fps slower than my 25" Shilen, unless the shorter one is magical. So the Spruce King ought to be able to do 2507 fps MV with a 400-grainer. That is not too shabby when 2300 fps with a 400-grainer is the All Killer load. The longer barrel just allows same effect at about 50 yards farther out. That's for a 0.340 BC with Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN. I have to stay 50 yards away from the critter to keep from exceeding the recommended impact velocity of the Woodleigh, 2500 fps. You are going to need to stay only about 8 feet away from the bull to keep from exceeding 2500 fps. Perfect for some brave hunting. Why, I might even be brave enough for a 20" barrel.
The second time around, starting low and working up to the same maximum, this time with a homemade cannelure at same COL:
Better results second time, it shot into one hole at 50 yards with top load:
The proper method is to use SAAMI .458 Lott starting load data for your .458 WM+, and work UPWARD until you beat the .458 Lott load. The 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN is a guide for future work with the 400-gr T6 bullet made by shortening of the 500-gr TSX. Any bubba can do it. The T6 has no impact velocity restrictions, just like the Woodleigh HYDRO bullets.
400-ish-grain cast bullets at 1800 fps or 2200 fps as desired, and T6 bullet at 2600 fps so as to be able to shoot inside of 50 yards without worrying about pancaking a Woodleigh PPSN.
Is not the HYDRO a brass cup point suitable for use as either soft or solid ?
On my dance card, waiting for the weather ...
450-gr TSX at ~3.595" COL with H4895 compressed 450-gr TSX at ~3.562"" COL with AA-2230 with a better crimp and not compressed. Then the 400-gr T6 which may be seated to same COL and identical nose protrusion as the 450-gr TSX.
Bubba Bullet and Brass Metamorphosis Technologies (BB&BMT, Ltd.) releases proprietary techniques to the gun trade, AGAIN ! Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis (BBM, Ltd., Very Ltd.) is a subsidiary of BB&BMT, Ltd.
The .450 Howell is a .404 Jeffery shortened to 2.5" and then sized to .458". It was designed to duplicate the .458 Win but at lower pressures.
The rifle is a CZ .458 Win re-chambered to .450 Howell.
The .450 Howell on the left and the .460 Wby on the right.
Elkhunternm; Thank you ! My first year packin for Jim Harrower/Stoney River Lodge in GMU 19 + 17 B there was a client on a grizzly hunt that had a 411 Jenson iirc. It was a 404 case , shortened and necked to .411. He was shooting HT bullets in it. Anyway , I seem to remember Ross Seyfreid mentioning the 450 Howell in an article or 2. I never had a 460. I jumped to the 500 A-Square from the 458 Win. Would have liked to have one. But after a serious neck injury , shooting anything big wasn't possible for a several years . When I had The Spruce King built it solved my large bore needs . Kinda boring I know .
Bubba Bullet and Brass Metamorphosis Technologies (BB&BMT, Ltd.) releases proprietary techniques to the gun trade, AGAIN ! Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis (BBM, Ltd., Very Ltd.) is a subsidiary of BB&BMT, Ltd.
Sir Ron;
They would All be useful for hunting . It all depends on the need and what's available at the time. Thru shear ignorance on my part. And a need to keep recoil down. I never shot the 500 gr X or TSX. Now that I understand about the throat of The Greatest I won't avoid them like I have in the past. Thank you !
Is the .450 Howell pretty much the same as the .450 Guns & Ammo? I can't find the G&A round in my Cartridges of the World to compare. I did pick up an old tang safety Ruger M77 in .458 WM back in October to go with my No. 1 .458 WM. The loading in that M77 magazine has to be 3.340", no extra room.
Is the .450 Howell pretty much the same as the .450 Guns & Ammo? I can't find the G&A round in my Cartridges of the World to compare. I did pick up an old tang safety Ruger M77 in .458 WM back in October to go with my No. 1 .458 WM. The loading in that M77 magazine has to be 3.340", no extra room.
There is a 460 G&A which is a full length Improved 404 Jeffery necked up, so like the 458 RUM. There was also a short one and that would be like the 450 Howell.
Here are a few results with the 380 gr. Lehigh Defense flat nose bullet, using H-4895. I think the results are about as expected, based on what Ron posted earlier for 400 gr bullets.
Details:
Rifle: Browning Safari 458 with 24” barrel
Case: W-W
Primer: CCI-250
Filler: None
COAL:3.26
Measurements made with a LabRadar, clamped to a rail at the front of the shooting bench for the 70 grain and above shots; it was somewhat more precariously mounted on a tripod for the 65 grain shots. Temperature 60°F for the 65-grain shots; 44°F for the others.
Accuracy: MOA for the 4 3-shot groups were 3.1, 1.9, 2.5, and 4.5 for the 65, 70, 72.5 , and 75 grain charges, respectively. I wouldn't put too much stock in these numbers; I need to move the scope back so that I can shoot this rifle more comfortably.
Other notes:
These feed pretty well through my Browning Safari.
These won't feed at all through a Ruger Model 77 (original with the tang safety).
I bought these Lehigh Defense bullets a couple months ago when I was having a hard time finding any other bullets. I've since managed to obtain some Speer 400 gr and Remington 405 gr bullets, so I may go back to those.
Good work. Least Squares Fit equation for the line and all ! What software do you use to make such beautiful graphs ? Pencil and graph paper for me, but maybe this old dog could learn a new trick ?
The Good Dr. Ken Howell cartridges are good ones. His book "designing and forming CUSTOM CARTRIDGES for rifles and handguns" has been a companion of mine since shortly after it was published in 1995. He has been a great influence at this web site too, I see. I have old Gun Digest and G&A articles that cover Ken Howell's Howell cartridges and Tom Siatos' G&A cartridges. I will dig them up. The specs need specifying.
First, another testimony from my dark ages, from which nothing of value was gained over a properly set up .458 Winchester Magnum, except the resolution of any uncertainty in my mind, the fun of having done it, and the necessary salvaging of at least one factory botch:
The upper cartridge above has been fire-formed, the one below it is simply a .416 Ruger necked up to .458 and ready to fire-form. Shoulder is actually a wee bit better than a .400 Whelen.
The 26" 460 WBY barrel had a 6"-long cylindrical knoxform so cutting off 3" of that left plenty for a 23"-barreled .450 Thumper:
My dark ages period was long and dark. I used the .338 Lapua Magnum brass as a basis for 7 other calibers than the .338, as well as 4 full-length .416 Rigby wildcats (.395, .423, .475, and .510) and 2 full-length Ruger cats (.264 and .458). The .500-caliber and .510-caliber required blowing out the shoulder, all the others are "not improved." The .510-caliber requires necking down .338 Lapua Magnum basic cylindrical brass. The necks of .338 Lapua Magnum will split too often on .510-caliber when fire-forming, even with proper annealing. Amazingly, rarely a problem with .500-caliber, but it would be best to do same for .500-caliber as for .510-caliber. No problems at all with just necking up to .458-caliber in two steps, and fire-forming loads may be normal full-power loads.
The 450 Dakota was created a few years before the 450 Rigby. The 450 Dakota was surely based on the 460 WBY with the belt turned off. It is supposed to do 2450 fps with 500-grainers. I like it with 500-grainers at 2300 fps and 450-grainers at 2450 fps, from its 25" barrel and 9.5 pounds, 4 down in the box magazine. A CZ 550 Magnum in .458 WinMag can easily do those ballistics plus hold 6 cartridges in the box magazine. If your CZ 550 Magnum only holds 5, it is just a Wisner floorplate away from 6.
And dang it, the .450 Dakota kicks worse than the .458 WM+ for same ballistics in the same 9.5-pound rifle weight and same barrel length.
My .458 WinRuger standard-length Mauser could hold 3 down with just a 1/10th-inch drop in the floor plate, or windowing of the current M98 box. A Ruger MK II or Hawkeye M77 box is perfect for 3 down with the .458 WinRuger.
Those first 404 Jeffery standard M98 rifles (circa 1905) did it by completely cutting away the sides of the box magazine and the front ! The back of the magazine box was all that was left. They had a steel plate secured to the front of the magazine well that lined up flush with the feed ramp. The cartridges rode up the naked wooden sides of the magazine well in the stock.
Good work. Least Squares Fit equation for the line and all ! What software do you use to make such beautiful graphs ? Pencil and graph paper for me, but maybe this old dog could learn a new trick ?
Ron, It's just Excel with the trendline feature used to generate the line and equation. I'm sure my Excel skills are vastly superior to my shooting skills, so if you need any advice or a sample file, let me know. Jeff
Your endeavors are most noble. 20 MOA from the base is a good beginning of the quest to hit the 1125-yard gong with your lovely .458 WM+. Can you actually hear the hit from that far away when you are using the .338/378 WBY ? If so, how many seconds from firing do you hear the hit ? How many MOA additional can you get from your scope adjustments and your reticle holdover, without going to a blue-sky hold ? Have you got a pet name for your .458 WM+ M70 ? Remember that a female name is customary, even though Daniel Boone called his rifle "Tick Licker" because he could remove ticks from his hounds at 100 yards with that baby.
I need ideas for naming my next one that will be the resut of these two having a baby:
Yes Sir, with 20 MOA's in the base, and iirc an available 100 with the Nightforce, I should be able to reach the 1125 yard steel, remain on the lookout for some AA-2230, another 50 fps certainly wont hurt anything.
Damn right you can hear it hit, the 300gr NAB leaves at 3000 fps, smacks the steel, then sound drifts back at 1160 fps? I think, so yes, several seconds before hearing the collision, LOL, haven't thought of a name yet, perhaps "Weak Sister" that should catch the naysayers napping ; ]
I'll try to help with naming the one that's in the oven.
I’ve got a Ruger Number 1 SS/Laminate that was a 45-70 and was rechambered to 45-90 I haven’t gotten a chance to give fresh air yet, but man, I’ve got a pile of Starline brass for it and it may give the 458 Win a run for its money in that #1!
Likin this thread! I’m ready for Gunner to put some 450’s on steel at 1100+! I know the old boy has it in him!
LOL, will pick a day with no wind Big Buddy, just the thought of math-ing that is hurting my head! ; ]
I’ve got a Ruger Number 1 SS/Laminate that was a 45-70 and was rechambered to 45-90 I haven’t gotten a chance to give fresh air yet, but man, I’ve got a pile of Starline brass for it and it may give the 458 Win a run for its money in that #1!
Likin this thread! I’m ready for Gunner to put some 450’s on steel at 1100+! I know the old boy has it in him!
LOL, will pick a day with no wind Big Buddy, just the thought of math-ing that is hurting my head! ; ]
Sir Mike, Crusader Knight of Truth, Good dig at Squire Karl for not owning a .458 WM, thank you. I telephoned sharpsguy about a month ago. His devoted understudy, gunner500 is in closer contact with him, geographically as well. We are hoping he will join in here. I have his images that were wiped off ardotcom, thank God ! Such poetry should not be wasted on reciting to a cess pool. Using .458 cast bullets at 1300 fps with a BPCR to shoot tiny groups and knock over game at 500-yards is high art, worth repeating here, very applicable to the .458 WM and ,458 WM+ with either smokeless or BP. I will call sharpsguy again and see how things are shaking.
You bet, spoke with sharpsguy yesterday, he's doing much better, he drilled a Springbuck in Africa at 537 yards off sticks with a 45-110 Sharps with ladder barrel sight and copper penny front sight he made himself, 19th century fiber optics if you will, I have a few Sharps rifle target and kill pics I can send you if you want.
I’ve got a Ruger Number 1 SS/Laminate that was a 45-70 and was rechambered to 45-90 I haven’t gotten a chance to give fresh air yet, but man, I’ve got a pile of Starline brass for it and it may give the 458 Win a run for its money in that #1!
Likin this thread! I’m ready for Gunner to put some 450’s on steel at 1100+! I know the old boy has it in him!
LOL, will pick a day with no wind Big Buddy, just the thought of math-ing that is hurting my head! ; ]
Yeah, that’s a fair amount of math right there.
Yes, 12-15 feet in 10 MPH full value off the top of my head, ouchy! ; ]
Is the .450 Howell pretty much the same as the .450 Guns & Ammo? I can't find the G&A round in my Cartridges of the World to compare. I did pick up an old tang safety Ruger M77 in .458 WM back in October to go with my No. 1 .458 WM. The loading in that M77 magazine has to be 3.340", no extra room.
There is a 460 G&A which is a full length Improved 404 Jeffery necked up, so like the 458 RUM. There was also a short one and that would be like the 450 Howell.
Here are dimensions of the .450 Howell and a blurb with mention of the .450 G&A Short Magnum and .460 G&A:
Don't sweat the Picatinny until you get back from Africa and get bored, big-bored. Don't get gored from fumbling around, loading around a Picatinny on an iron-sighted rifle. I have all of the sharpsguy photos that were at ardotcom. If you have more you want posted here, send them on, most applicable to this thread would be .45-caliber BPCR. Ask sharpsguy if he is OK with putting his old stuff up here, please. It will amaze for sure.
Speaking of iron sights on my thumpers, I consider putting 3 shots into 2 inches at 50 yards on paper to be OK for me ! The iron sights on my .450 Ted Williams Thumper do that just fine, and with a scope she shoots as well as my scoped .458 WM and .458 WM+ rifles.
These are the iron sights that work for me, using a hold such that the rifle shoots to top edge of bead at 50 yards POA, load being 500-gr TSX with 96.0 grains of RL-15, 2372 fps 5-yd chrono, about 2382 fps MV, from 22" barrel, 90*F. The last inch of the 23" barrel was ported by a gunsmith in Alaska, while it was a .460 WBY. For a closer target and faster shooting: Combat bead covering the POA for a DOA at the POI.
The .450 Thumper(s) were chambered by Rusty McGee, using a PT&G .338 Lapua Magnum reamer with a .45-bore pilot in a McGowen barrel, standard headspace gages for .338 LM. Neck and throat were done with a SAAMI .458 WM reamer, inserted to maximum chamber length of 2.720", for 2.700" brass maximum.
Neck length is 0.469" for 2.700" brass, 0.459" for 2.690" brass length.
.450 Thumper the First:
With that 22"-barreled rifle and a 2.5X Leupold scope, at 74*F, using RL-15 and the 450-grain North Fork Soft Point, 5-yd velocities, 3-shot averages:
98.0 gr >>> 2545 fps sd = 5 fps 99.0 gr >>> 2556 fps sd = 3 fps 100.0 gr >>> 2581 fps sd = 5 fps 101.0 gr >>> 2590 fps sd = 8 fps 102.0 gr >>> 2598 fps sd = 5 fps
Accuracy was best with the 98.0 gr RL-15, 0.31 MOA, three into one hole at 50 yards. Groups opened up just a little at 99.0 and 100.0 grains but were one-holers again on the 50-yard target for 101.0 and 102.0 grains. Well over 2600 fps for the 102.0 gr load if corrected to MV. KE of 450-grainer at 2600 fps = 6754 ft-lbs.
.450 Thumper the Second had a 25" skinny barrel:
The point of it all ? As Tom Siatos said in the 1973 G&A ANNUAL in his article "The .460 G&A Goes to Africa":
The shooting world needs another wildcat cartridge about as much as we need another "Federal Gun Control Act." ... ... So why a wildcat .458 load? No other reason than just the satisfaction and fun of developing it, putting it together and finally using it in the field. Afterall, isn't this what it's all about."
Exactly the same can be said about the .458 WM+. The .458 WM+ is not far behind .450 Thumper ballistics in the same weight and length rifle. The critter will never know the difference, but the hunter will. He will get thumped less.
Time of Flight of 450-gr TSX at 2450 fps MV to 1125-yard gong = 2.511 seconds Time of sound return from 1125-yard gong to gunner500's ears = 3 seconds. 5.511 seconds from trigger pull to music of the .458 WM+. Please do not take this as some kind of challenge, gunner500. You got nuthin' to prove regarding your musical abilities. Glad to hear that you hear well, so far. I might need a hearing aid before you do. I've been on the lookout for an ear horn to use with my left ear. Right-handed long gun shooting seems to have muffled my left ear a bit. I blame that childhood shotgun shooting without muffs or plugs. We just didn't know any better back then. You might want to cock your right ear towards the gong about 5 seconds after you shoot, what ?
Speaking of iron sights on my thumpers, I consider putting 3 shots into 2 inches at 50 yards on paper to be OK for me !
Ron,
I used to be able to get an inch at 100 yards with my M70 Super Grade 458 and Lyman receiver sight. Those rifles were drilled and tapped and the wood cut down to expose the screw holes.
The key to iron sights is the aiming mark.
A bloke that is good with ring foresight would equal a scope unless it was a bench rest rifle.
Don't sweat the Picatinny until you get back from Africa and get bored, big-bored. Don't get gored from fumbling around, loading around a Picatinny on an iron-sighted rifle. I have all of the sharpsguy photos that were at ardotcom. If you have more you want posted here, send them on, most applicable to this thread would be .45-caliber BPCR. Ask sharpsguy if he is OK with putting his old stuff up here, please. It will amaze for sure.
That'll work Sir, i'll call him in the morning, will also send you pics of some targets and a Cape Buffalo and Zebra I slew with my little 45-70 Shiloh with 530gr paper patch bullets over 76gr KIK 3FG,, you know, a large deposit was paid for a hunt up on the Limpopo last Jan 2020, the kung fu flu screwed the pooch on that deal, fine, upstanding and Honorable U.S, Service Man Outfitter is going to honor our deal, I need to take Wife and my 458 Win Mag+ up there this fall, iron sights and ready to go with both 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS, should a 40 inch or better Buffalo reside there, i'll put him in the salt!
It'll be a fun test, I don't look to have any 500gr TBSS's for viewing.
So, we are awaiting photo documentation of your feats like those of sharpsguy with BPCR in Africa and elswhere. Don't forget to ask him if he is OK with putting up his photos too, the ones I already have, at this thread, to further the Crusade for Truth. Exception to rules of Knighthood for sharpsguy, automatic for him: Sir Bill. The .458 WM and .458 WM+ can be loaded to duplicate the feats of sharpsguy's BPCR. That is magnificence to aspire to with practice and luck, even if mere mortals have to use scoped rifles and smokeless powder pushing PC-painted, gaschecked, cast bullets. After that they can try the BP and paper-patched bullets in the .458 WM+ and ballistic twin the .45-70 Elko Magnum.
Hello Sir Riflecrank, just got off the phone with sharpsguy, he's re-habing a little back surgery procedure complete with two rounds per day of physical therapy, You have his blessing to post any and all the pics he sent you, perked him right up, he hopes to be home in a few days, i'll get you a couple pics took from computer and text em to you here shortly.
Hello Sir Riflecrank, just got off the phone with sharpsguy, he's re-habing a little back surgery procedure complete with two rounds per day of physical therapy, You have his blessing to post any and all the pics he sent you, perked him right up, he hopes to be home in a few days, i'll get you a couple pics took from computer and text em to you here shortly.
Yes Sir Bob's loads are like a 450/400 NE 3" in effect, from his .458 WM, 400-grainer at 2150 fps, very nice. Sir Jerry has some BPCR loads that duplicate the sort of loads that Selous used in Africa for the Big Five, from his .461 Gibbs Farquharson.
(Aside: The .461 Gibbs No. 1 original load was a 480-gr paper-patched with 85 gr of BP for about 1300 fps in the mid to late 1870s. That duplicated the .577/.450 Martini-Henry. Same as the .45-70 ballistics of a sharpsguy +500-yard African plains game load. About 1881, Selous was most fond of the 540-gr PP bullet with 75 gr of BP, and he even used a 360-gr PP bullet with 90 grains of BP for the soft-skinned stuff. By 1882 the .461 Gibbs No. 2 was in vogue, using 570-gr PP bullets with 90 gr of BP for about 1350 fps in the longish barrel, +/- 30". Also by then the 360-gr Express HP & PP bullet got a mere 100 gr of BP for about 1700 fps.)
As you were, here is Sir Jerry/gunner500 demonstrating some loads with paper-patched lead bullets and BPCR with barrel sights.
"About to send 530 gr of paper patched lead into that cape buffalo."
"Putting finisher in buff at PH request."
".45-70 Shiloh, job completed."
"Putting finisher in zebra."
"Another testament to 458 cal, black powder and paper patched lead."
Another place and another time:
"Bison, 212 yards, Shiloh 45-70, 530-gr paper patch."
"Bison afterkill."
Looks like the taste of victory was mighty fine, especially the Scotch whisky, from the looks of the bottles. I never pass on a Buffalo Trace, bourbon whiskey.
"Playing with 45-110 bull barrel in massive full value 25 mph winds at 300 yards, 530-gr PP."
"45-110 bull gun in 400 yard variable winds, 530-gr PP."
"45 3-1/4 at 300 yards, 500-gr gov. bullet."
"45 3-1/4 700 yard gong, 500-gr gov. bullet."
"And when all the stars align, 3 at 400 yards, 45-70, 530-gr PP, so damn nice."
How about the 570-ish grainers in a 45-70 lever action ? Loaded with BP, it still fully penetrates a 55-gallon steel drum filled with water, bulges the barrel ends and buries the bullet in a tree behind the barrel:
I would have to review my notes to say anymore about it, but gunner500 might elaborate a bit on that last load.
I have an NOE mould for a 600-gr FNGC (WW alloy) that might come out at 570-gr cast in my hardball alloy. The mould also has hollow pointing capability and three sets of HP studs that vary from just a dimple to pretty deep. I'll get to it eventually, imitating Selous' loads with the .458 WM+. More of the stuff from the BPCR Masters, gunner500 and sharpsguy, tomorrow.
Sir Bill Bagwell has long been a crusader for truth about the BPCR and hunting. His favored hunting load with 45-70 is for a 480-ish-grain FN bullet at about 1300 fps, and he also used a 45-110 and heavier bullets. The .458 WM is equivalent to a "45-98 Sharps Belted 2.5-Inch." I made up that last bit of nomenclature. It is obvious that any proud .458 WM shooter could use the .458 WM to recreate the ballistics of Bagwell and Selous, for fun and filling the freezer.
Bill Bagwell has a youtube excerpt of his zebra kill with .45-bore BPCR out on the internet. It is taken from his "Smoke Over Africa" video done when he was the GOEX sponsored pro-shooter. I will look for it. 10 more images follow the 15 previous:
Moral of the story is that if a person tells you a .458 Winchester Magnum bullet will bounce off an elephant or buffalo, then that person probably voted for Joe Biden.
Those groups at long range, the vast majority of 270s, 7mm, 300s out there would not equal them and the average bloke with a 270 etc. out of the box and with factory ammo will not even come close.
I was looking around for molds and components today. Not a lot immediately available. I've been so focused on building materials and tools the past couple years . I lost track of the stuff I need for shootin. Looks like Ill either be necking up 338 Win brass or trimming and necking up 375 h+h brass. And my favorite bullets . 300 gr TSX must be made from unobtainium. I Need to come up with a good mold for the 458 also. Thinking I should start with a 500 grain. But there are almost too many options in the custom mold arena. Thinking Ill get a flatnose 3 cavity mold from Accurate Molds.
CTF - I feel your pain; I didn't get my 458 WM until well into the current panic, and a lot of things are unobtainium! After watching the classifieds here and AR, and the auctions on GunBroker, I managed to find enough brass and bullets to get me going. I'm also thinking of trying to cast some bullets - I've had some of the equipment for a long-time, including a mould:
Woodleigh also makes a 550gn RN and Solid. I have tried the 550gn in 3 .458's and the .460 and like it so much I don't bother with 500 grainers any more.
I recall the magazine article you did about 20 years ago John on the 460 with 550grains on Bison I beleieve. A good read. What exact year was that anyway?
I think it was 1996. I lost a lot of copies I kept from a basement flood, so don't have complete records any more. Glad you liked the article. John
Sorry to hear that John. If anyone does have a copy still living I'd be interested to obtain one
That article was published in the Australian Sporting Shooter Magazine so the publisher, Yaffa may have back copies? John
I want to try the 400 gr Woodleigh in my .460 Wby and .450 Howell.
Ken, 110gn of VARGET will get you 2737fps with the 400gn Woodleigh and you can load up to 116gn for around 2900fps. IMR 4064 is extremely close to Varget (AR2208) as in you can duplicate loads in the 460 case and not see any difference.
The velocities Woodleigh quotes are pretty spot on as recommended maximums as I used the 400gn in the .460 and the 340gn on the .416 Weatherby loaded to that 2900fps area for each and they blew feral goats in half and sprayed the surrounding trees and bushes with carrion. Made for some impressive instant kills. John
CTF - I feel your pain; I didn't get my 458 WM until well into the current panic, and a lot of things are unobtainium! After watching the classifieds here and AR, and the auctions on GunBroker, I managed to find enough brass and bullets to get me going. I'm also thinking of trying to cast some bullets - I've had some of the equipment for a long-time, including a mould:
A lot to learn though....
I wish this site had a LIKE tab. I have a boat load to learn also. What weight boolit will your mold drop ? I don't have any 458 molds yet Not sure how much of a flat nose to go with. Or wether to go with a more pointed design and cast a 50 to 100 gr nose then a harder base section on top/base pour.
It is good to be able to make your own bullets, what with the hoo-hah of the DALD Party in the USA fermenting right now. Good to have an all-purpose bug-out rifle too: .458 Winchester Magnum. Capable of .410 shotgun to better than a SAAMI .458 Lott for the big stuff. I am getting quite a mould collection, and collection of recipes for accurate cast bullet loads in the .458 WM. I have not used the NOE 600-grainer/hollow-pointer yet, need to do it. Ordering from either Accurate Molds or NOE via their web sites is a pleasure, and speedy delivery usually.
Hannay's mould appears to be the Lyman #457406 that throws a 482-grainer in Lyman #2 Alloy, a gas-checked bullet. Old Lyman cast bullet manual shows .458 WM loads for that at 3.090" COL, in a 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1, W-W brass and WLR primer:
Unique: 17.0 gr >>> 1175 fps 21.0 gr >>> 1320 fps
IMR-3031: 57.0 gr >>> 1850 fps 66.0 gr (compressed) >>> 2120 fps
You can get Trapdoor to Nitro Express level ballistics with that bullet with very short COL.
IMHO, about any cast bullet is good in the .458 WM sized as small as .459" if you keep the velocity down to 1400 fps or less. If you want velocities around 2200 fps with 400-ish to 540-ish grainers in the .458 WM, better cast them hard, powder-coat paint them, and apply the gas check as you size them to .461" diameter for the common .459"-grooved .458 WM. That worked fine in a .458"-grooved .458 WM too, and the standard 1:14" twist. The 1:18" and 1:20" twists are nice if you want to obsess over it, but 1:14" is best for the all-purpose bug-out rifle.
We would do well to imitate the loads of Sir Bill Bagwell and Sir Jerry, with our scoped and smokeless rifles. Advanced loading of the .458 WM (aka .45-98 2.5" Sharps Belted) will include black powder and paper patch mastery, and use of beeswax and olive oil lube on the greaser bullets. Heck we might have to learn to make our own BP and primers when the apocalypse arrives. Keep a flintlock handy too.
I forgot about Bill Bagwell's other movie when he was the GOEX Pro. Something like "African Safari" and "Smoke over Africa" are the two. Bill says I can use anything from those for show and tell. So I better go watch them again and see what I can configure ...
I want to try the 400 gr Woodleigh in my .460 Wby and .450 Howell.
Ken, 110gn of VARGET will get you 2737fps with the 400gn Woodleigh and you can load up to 116gn for around 2900fps. IMR 4064 is extremely close to Varget (AR2208) as in you can duplicate loads in the 460 case and not see any difference.
The velocities Woodleigh quotes are pretty spot on as recommended maximums as I used the 400gn in the .460 and the 340gn on the .416 Weatherby loaded to that 2900fps area for each and they blew feral goats in half and sprayed the surrounding trees and bushes with carrion. Made for some impressive instant kills. John
I was looking around for molds and components today. Not a lot immediately available. I've been so focused on building materials and tools the past couple years . I lost track of the stuff I need for shootin. Looks like Ill either be necking up 338 Win brass or trimming and necking up 375 h+h brass. And my favorite bullets . 300 gr TSX must be made from unobtainium. I Need to come up with a good mold for the 458 also. Thinking I should start with a 500 grain. But there are almost too many options in the custom mold arena. Thinking Ill get a flatnose 3 cavity mold from Accurate Molds.
If you're looking for moulds with a crimp groove in the correct place for a 3.340" COL and a large full diameter nose to fill the .458 WM throat from Accurate, take a look at numbers 46-394N, 46-485N, and 46-500L. A Lee Factory Crimp Die makes it easy to use virtually any .45 cal mould without a crimp groove.
Hello Sir Riflecrank, just got off the phone with sharpsguy, he's re-habing a little back surgery procedure complete with two rounds per day of physical therapy, You have his blessing to post any and all the pics he sent you, perked him right up, he hopes to be home in a few days, i'll get you a couple pics took from computer and text em to you here shortly.
Thanks again sir.
He sure can shoot.
Yes Sir he can, I've been in the spotter and witnessed him shooting two different 1.5 inch 3 shot groups and 400 and 500 yards at his home range, it's a hell of a thing to get too see, besides the challenge of using naked eye and barrel sights, the real [discipline] challenge shooting these rifles with forearm laid in hang over a 4x4" wood block or rolled up shell belt holding the rifle to shoulder with 'no' rear bag, much like one would in a hunting situation, you must gather your shlt and break more than clean triggers or all is lost.
Twisting turrets on a 22 power scope with two bags for support shooting a mile is not much of a challenge, if we understand the time a 500gr bullets leaves the muzzle at 12-1300 fps and smacks a 500 yard gong, said bullet would have been near 25 feet in the air on it's path, you will become your own mini meteorologist shooting these rifles, it is great fun, you will never learn it all, and will certainly NEVER become bored, the possibilities and combinations are endless.
Sir Ron, Wheew, got caught up in the crush yesterday doing my neighborly-s moving hay and firewood for old folk ahead of the bad weather on the way, many Thanks for posting the pics, this sport remains my sincere pleasure, the bullet used in the old '86 45-70 is a flat nosed greaser that weighs 496 grains at 16 to 1 alloy, the rifle is an 1892 year model with 20 twist half round barrel with black powder chamber, iirc the bullet leaves at 1264 fps over 70gr OE FFG.
I need to re-visit that 461 Gibbs/Selous/Seyfried experiment, cant remember what that bullet weighed after I had machine shop buddy turn the button off the stem as well as take 40 thou off the stem height, got the longest heaviest bullet I could get from that KAL mould, it's a dandy, also have a Paul Jones built 348 dia. 570gr AA Smerker mould, big creedmoor nosed greaser, that bullet is stupid accurate in my little 18 twist 45-70 Shiloh
I want to try the 400 gr Woodleigh in my .460 Wby and .450 Howell.
Ken, 110gn of VARGET will get you 2737fps with the 400gn Woodleigh and you can load up to 116gn for around 2900fps. IMR 4064 is extremely close to Varget (AR2208) as in you can duplicate loads in the 460 case and not see any difference.
The velocities Woodleigh quotes are pretty spot on as recommended maximums as I used the 400gn in the .460 and the 340gn on the .416 Weatherby loaded to that 2900fps area for each and they blew feral goats in half and sprayed the surrounding trees and bushes with carrion. Made for some impressive instant kills. John
Thanks John!
Dang Elk old buddy, 400gr Woodie at 2900 is gonna have chunks of bugs bunny hanging from every bush in a 20 yard circle, you'll have to bring a nice folding chair to sit your rifle on at the spot the bunny "WAS"
Sir Jerry, Thanks for straightening out the bullet details on the barrel buster load, very like the load that flattened the zebra in "Smoke Over Africa." You made your M1886 into same medicine. I discovered my 'puter can do snapshots of the Bill Bagwell videos. Look out ! Ditto the flying varmint chunks too with a 400-gr Woodie PPSN at 2900 fps in a 460 WBY. I consider the .458 WM+ doing 2600 fps with that bullet to be adequate for jackrabbit.
Sir Ron, You're most welcome Friend, NICE on the up coming video pics, was able to field three calls from Bill yesterday, he's feeling better and ready to get the hell out of there.
Is the .450 Howell pretty much the same as the .450 Guns & Ammo? I can't find the G&A round in my Cartridges of the World to compare. I did pick up an old tang safety Ruger M77 in .458 WM back in October to go with my No. 1 .458 WM. The loading in that M77 magazine has to be 3.340", no extra room.
My first .458 WM was that same Ruger M77 with the tang safety and 3.34" box. But it had the long throat that John Kronfeld explained to me when I couldn't get the accuracy wanted with the short 350gr Speer. But I did kill a bear with the 350 Speer using a reduced load of around 2345 fps. And it did a wrecking-ball job on that going away bear at about 75 yards. The 500gr Hornadys shot into cloverleafs however. That Hornady load went as backup on a moose hunt. My rifle had a 22" barrel.
I was looking around for molds and components today. Not a lot immediately available. I've been so focused on building materials and tools the past couple years . I lost track of the stuff I need for shootin. Looks like Ill either be necking up 338 Win brass or trimming and necking up 375 h+h brass. And my favorite bullets . 300 gr TSX must be made from unobtainium. I Need to come up with a good mold for the 458 also. Thinking I should start with a 500 grain. But there are almost too many options in the custom mold arena. Thinking Ill get a flatnose 3 cavity mold from Accurate Molds.
If you're looking for moulds with a crimp groove in the correct place for a 3.340" COL and a large full diameter nose to fill the .458 WM throat from Accurate, take a look at numbers 46-394N, 46-485N, and 46-500L. A Lee Factory Crimp Die makes it easy to use virtually any .45 cal mould without a crimp groove.
I want to try the 400 gr Woodleigh in my .460 Wby and .450 Howell.
Ken, 110gn of VARGET will get you 2737fps with the 400gn Woodleigh and you can load up to 116gn for around 2900fps. IMR 4064 is extremely close to Varget (AR2208) as in you can duplicate loads in the 460 case and not see any difference.
The velocities Woodleigh quotes are pretty spot on as recommended maximums as I used the 400gn in the .460 and the 340gn on the .416 Weatherby loaded to that 2900fps area for each and they blew feral goats in half and sprayed the surrounding trees and bushes with carrion. Made for some impressive instant kills. John
Thanks John!
Dang Elk old buddy, 400gr Woodie at 2900 is gonna have chunks of bugs bunny hanging from every bush in a 20 yard circle, you'll have to bring a nice folding chair to sit your rifle on at the spot the bunny "WAS"
Schit it won't take 2900 fps to do that, 2500 fps does that already.
Well, that settles that. The .458 Winchester Magnum is definitely adequate for jackrabbits. The 400-gr Speer is indeed explosive at 2500 fps. The 300-gr Sierra Pro Hunter hollow point will explode at the muzzle if you get it over 2800 fps. That is too easily done with the .458 WM. I had the devil of a time cleaning the trash out of my muzzle brake on Bobbarrella CZ 550. But the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN, recommended for big game impact up to 2500 fps, will require higher speed than 2500 fpr for such explosive results. +2600 fps should do for shots inside of 50 yards on varmints. The .458 WM with 24" barrel can do that.
Here is the first installment of Bill Bagwell's GOEX African Safari.
The solid copper penny front sight. I started saving pre-1980 pennies in a jug after I learned about that. Apparently each reply is limited to 10 images displayed in all their splendor for full impact. Speaking of impacts, they are coming soon.
First kudu was Bagwelled at 302 yards. Second kudu was Bagwelled at about 75 yards, on the run, just before PH could say anything. Bill is quick when he wants to be.
Impressive indeed. Ron, thanks for posting - just to be clear,do I understand correctly - in these still shots from the videos, Mr. Bagwell is using: "... the 480-ish-grain, semi-hard, Lyman PH (Parker Hale) bullet at about 1300 fps (with BP)"? I think that should be doable in a trapdoor Springfield...
Impressive indeed. Ron, thanks for posting - just to be clear,do I understand correctly - in these still shots from the videos, Mr. Bagwell is using: "... the 480-ish-grain, semi-hard, Lyman PH (Parker Hale) bullet at about 1300 fps (with BP)"? I think that should be doable in a trapdoor Springfield...
Hannay, That is correct, 17,000 CUP limit on a .45-70 Govt.Trapdoor in good condition. Smokeless for sure. BP I will defer to THE MASTERS Sir Jerry and Sir Bill Bagwell. Looking in the old Lyman CAST BULLET HANDBOOK THIRD EDITION, I see they have screwed up quoting different weights for the #457406. They called it 451-gr in the .45-70 section and 482-gr in the .458 WM section, both done in Lyman #2 Alloy. I cannot find the mould in same book 4th Ed. nor more recent editions of the Lyman general handloading manual. You are going to need to cast some and see what you have.
The running Kudu was dumped by Trapdoor ballistics. The zebra bang-flop was done with same .45-70 load. If the load data shown above says GOEX Pinnacle 3F 67.5 grains, it was the .45-70 Shiloh Sharps being used. His other rifle uses 106 gr of GOEX 2F in the .45-110 Shiloh Sharps.
Get to work with your mould ! The hard Flat Nose has something to do with the effectiveness. You might figure out a nose flattener if your mould is Round-Nosed. Those ballistics are like super-magnum handgun ballistics, which other professional small boys use on all sorts of game. Of course they usually have to get closer than Bill has to get to place his shot. But he can shoot kudu on the run at 75 yards just fine with those ballistics. Piled up with a single shot, IIRC.
Ron, Well it may take me awhile to get everything together for casting bullets. In the meantime, I'm reading:
Other advice for the novice casting bullets is welcome. I've got the mould, an electric casting pot, a modest supply of lead from wheelweights. No sizer/luber or press set up to press on gas checks. No gas checks yet, either!
Sir Ron, Thanks for those, You know, 12 years ago I showed up at Bill's place at his invitation with my first Sharps rifle, a 45 3-1/4 with some store bought 20 to 1 alloy 540gr Creedmoor bullets from Sagebrush hand loaded with holy black at 1550 fps, Bill looked at the load data and said holy fu-k man, we need to slow those down, at that point I hadn't even raised the ladder on my rear sight, was just trying to be flat.
He said lets go to school, class is in session! went inside with two giant cold glasses of iced tea and watched both his videos, we then went to his range, he had me slapping 500 meter steel [540ish yards] within 15 minutes using my barrel sights 'after' he made me a brand new copper penny front sight! spent the whole weekend there with he and his lovely Wife Sidra, BTW, she's a hell of a cook, how Bill doesn't weigh 900lbs is beyond me ; ] I'm blessed with the same problem with my Wife.
Long story short, we cast bullets, shot rifles, even learned to paper patch, and ate some hellacious meals in between, I remember as if it were 5 minutes ago, the 3 hour and 45 minute ride home was without stereo or cell phone in my truck, I was simply astounded at the events that had just taken place, and reflecting on each and every one, 8 Sharps rifles later it's over for me, I'm hooked!
Great to see a Master offering to take on an apprentice. Hannay would do well to take it up. Correction: The zebra was flattened with the 480-ish-grain PH bullet from the 45-70 in the second video "Smoke Over Africa." In the first video the running kudu was Bagwelled with a 45-70 520-gr Steve Brooks (Tru-Bore) bullet using about same charge as used with PH. We are about half way through the first video. I'll post more soon. Hopefully Sir Bill Bagwell is home soon.
Perfect for the .458 WM. 485-gr in clip-on wheel weights, 470-480-ish in harder alloy Perfect for Bagwelling with a .458 WM. Wish I had that one too, but I can't own them all. From Accurate Molds, aluminum 4-cavity or brass 2-cavity, are my preference. I have a couple with two different bullets in the same blocks, etc.
To Bagwell is a verb meaning the opposite of "to Walter." Bagwellable is an adjective meaning the opposite of Walterable.
Perfect for the .458 WM. 485-gr in clip-on wheel weights, 470-480-ish in harder alloy Perfect for Bagwelling with a .458 WM. Wish I had that one too, but I can't own them all. From Accurate Molds, aluminum 4-cavity or brass 2-cavity, are my preference. I have a couple with two different bullets in the same blocks, etc.
To Bagwell is a verb meaning the opposite of "to Walter." Bagwellable is an adjective meaning the opposite of Walterable.
I brought The Spruce King to where we are house sitting this winter ( almost impossible to build inside while living in the same small house) My thots on the need for a pad and the walnut butt cheeks. I'm thinking to inlet a block of wood to fit around the skeleton of the stock . Glue and pin it to the stock then fit a magnum pad to it.
The mold I queyed up in my cart is a 3 cavity aluminum with a troughed spur plate. I'm thinking coww with 2% tin for the general run of things. Powder coated.
I probably won't be getting into black powder. There's only just so much will fit between my ears. I am thinking something like 12 gr of Unique and backer rod. 10 gr of Unique and a 400 gr cast from my 480 Ruger SRH 4.5" gives me right around 1000 fps. More research is needed.
End of snapshots from first Bill Bagwell video "Goex African Safari 2007." There is another batch of snapshots from the video "Smoke Over Africa" where the zebra gets flattened by 480 grains of lead alloy from a .45-70 Sharps with MV circa 1300 fps, unless someone objects.
Yep, and we can strive to imitate Bill's ballistics and accuracy with our scoped and smokeless .458 WM rifles heaving cast bullets. To Bagwell is the goal. Seems Bill can do it with either FN or RN cast bullets. The round nose bullets probably flatten their noses pretty well when they hit. Ha ha.
The mold I queyed up in my cart is a 3 cavity aluminum with a troughed spur plate. I'm thinking coww with 2% tin for the general run of things. Powder coated.
I probably won't be getting into black powder. There's only just so much will fit between my ears. I am thinking something like 12 gr of Unique and backer rod. 10 gr of Unique and a 400 gr cast from my 480 Ruger SRH 4.5" gives me right around 1000 fps. More research is needed.
Sir Spruce,
Very nice, all that. 3 cavity aluminum should be very good at coming up to proper heat and staying warm between pours. The troughed sprue plate OK for all three cavities being the same. Of course, if you have a mould with a paper-patch-slick on one side requiring soft alloy and an FN-GC requiring hard alloy on the other side, then one must have the standard pour holes with no trough connection. I have done that with a brass-block Accurate Molds mould for the .458 WM, more later on that. One must also have two pots of alloys melted and two dippers. I much prefer a dipper and avoid the bottom-pour melters. Ross Seyfried tip is to have two different moulds going at the same time while pouring all with the same alloy. I like running an aluminum or iron mould alongside my brass moulds. Keeps me from overheating the brass block which may be more prone to warping than either aluminum or iron.
Elephant have been handily brained with a .475 Linebaugh revolver and a 400-gr bullet cut down from a 500-gr solid for 470 NE. Cut off the base, like Bubba does to the 500-gr TSX to make a 400-gr T6. Must have been a lead-filled bronze "solid" like a Punch or a Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid. Maybe I can dig up that story again to clear up any faulty recollection on the Bubba-ed bullet that killed the trophy bull elephant with ballistics much like the Bagwell BPCR. Sir Jerry taught me the abbreviation for the Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid. It is TBSS not TBSH.
Posting Bill Bagwell history is a pleasure, hero worship. What a guy ! Renaissance man extraordinaire ! Played college football and got an English degree. Used to write a regular knife feature in the old SOLDIER OF FORTUNE magazine. Custom knife maker that gets $3000 for a Bowie. Studied the BPCR for 25 years to learn how to do it. In the next video he says the Shiloh Sharps 45-70 he is using has fired 27,000 rounds over 30 years. It is the rifle that flattened the zebra at 161 yards with the 480-gr PH bullet at about 1300 fps MV. Apparently Bill quit playing college football before he suffered any lasting brain damage.
I will be loading up SMOKE OVER AFRICA while listening to the TV coverage of President Trump's defense attorneys, against the Dumb Ass Lying Democrats. I have to pace myself so as not to overwork the mouse and get carpal tunnel or something. The DALDs certainly deserve some carpal mouth. No, that would be tarsal mouth for them, since they have had foot in mouth for the last 4 years.
Yep, and we can strive to imitate Bill's ballistics and accuracy with our scoped and smokeless .458 WM rifles heaving cast bullets. To Bagwell is the goal. Seems Bill can do it with either FN or RN cast bullets. The round nose bullets probably flatten their noses pretty well when they hit. Ha ha.
I'll take and send a pic on this subject, it may give us something to study on over the coming 5 day ice age ; ]
Posting Bill Bagwell history is a pleasure, hero worship. What a guy ! Renaissance man extraordinaire ! Played college football and got an English degree. Used to write a regular knife feature in the old SOLDIER OF FORTUNE magazine. Custom knife maker that gets $3000 for a Bowie. Studied the BPCR for 25 years to learn how to do it. In the next video he says the Shiloh Sharps 45-70 he is using has fired 27,000 rounds over 30 years. It is the rifle that flattened the zebra at 161 yards with the 480-gr PH bullet at about 1300 fps MV. Apparently Bill quit playing college football before he suffered any lasting brain damage.
I will be loading up SMOKE OVER AFRICA while listening to the TV coverage of President Trump's defense attorneys, against the Dumb Ass Lying Democrats. I have to pace myself so as not to overwork the mouse and get carpal tunnel or something. The DALDs certainly deserve some carpal mouth. No, that would be tarsal mouth for them, since they have had foot in mouth for the last 4 years.
You bet to all that Sir Ron, hope you someday have the pleasure of spending a weekend at his place loading, shooting and learning, the guy should/could have been a teacher/professor, very easy to listen to and learn from, great in person speaker.
Field results corroborate the ballistic testing. Ross Seyfried has gotten almost five feet of penetration with the .475 Linebaugh using a modified Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid weighing 385 grs at 1500 fps muzzle velocity on an Asian buffalo in Australia, in spite of breaking both the hip and a shoulder! (Ross Seyfried, ".475 Revolver Down Under", Guns & Ammo, Petersen Publishing, Inc., December, 1989, pp. 48 - 53, 96) In testing this bullet outpenetrated the lead alloy LBT bullets by 20 %. Using a similar modified solid weighing 400 grs, Otto Candies, Jr. completely penetrated the skull of an elephant on a frontal brain shot, the bullet coming to rest at a depth of 40 inches in the neck. (Jim Gosnell, "Legendary Linebaugh Big-Bores", High-Power Handguns, Petersen Publishing, Inc., 1995, pp. 34 - 39) J. D. Jones, noted handgun hunter and entrepreneur (S.S.K. Industries), reports getting "over seven feet" of penetration with 500 gr. solids from a 45-70 handcannon (SSK product literature).
Thanks for posting the pic Sir Ron, your post about the round nosed bullets getting flat is what brought this to mind, the recovered bullet is from a Mos mould that Bill gave me, it's a copy of the 458 cal paper patch bullets the Sharps Rifle Factory loaded and sent out to the Buffalo Hunters, I cast it soft at 30 to 1 to fire in an original '74 Sharps in 45-110, the charge is 100 grains of 1F, velocity from the old rifle is 1269 fps, slap in the middle of the wheelhouse.
I fired this bullet into 4 five gallon water buckets lengthways, recovered the bullet in the 4th bucket, with their tough plastic snap on lids and tough bottoms, it went through a pretty good test, what we see with this recovered bullet is it's shape, look closely at the solids that are world renowned for penetration DEEP and STRAIGHT, that old round nose paper patch is now parallel sided with a tapering nose precisely to a flat point, just like the solids that 'dont' change their shapes.
The old Buffalo Hunters knew what worked, but they may not have known why, it took modern man with countless thousands of man hours, safaris, untold amounts of money, field reports, bullets designs, cnc machines, lathes, lead alloys, presses, etc, etc to finally come up with the best solids we've ever had, when in retrospect, the Buffalo Hunters were doing that 150 years ago.
I have no recovered 40 or 458 cal bullets from game, only have two from my 50-90 hunting rifle, a 715gr paper patch that blew through a great Sable bull at 99 yards, then hit a tree behind the bull, the other is a 750gr flat nosed grease groove bullet fired into a bedded Eland bull at 60 yards, bullet entered right ham, skinners handed me the bullet from the bulls left shoulder, 8-9 feet of penetration, those bullets left the rifle at 1365-1400 fps and were cast with my alloy using three pounds of Lyman #2 with 7 lbs pure lead, it's about like 12 to 1 lead tin alloy.
Oops, forgot, bullet #7 is from my Tilton mould, it's 458 cal flat nose paper patch, 516 grains at 12 to 1 alloy, it's the bullet I use for hunting and target practice in my Shiloh 45-70 and 45-110 hunting rifles, it's a hell of a take no prisoners hunting bullet, I have no recoveries with that one.
Sir Jerry, Also for you: "Field results corroborate the ballistic testing." Thanks for the info. Note that Ross Seyfried cut off the base of a 500-gr TBSS to make a 385-gr .475 Linebaugh bullet. Otto Candies, Jr. did similar to make a 400-grain .475 Linebaugh bullet and took a big bull elephant with it.
Bill Bagwell's Smoke Over Africa, Chapter 1: Starts with historical discussion of BPCR bison hunters and show and tell of ammo and rifle.
Rifle: The Shiloh Sharps 45-70 that fired 27,000 rounds over a 30 year period of study and mastery before this hunt. Cartridges: .45-70 loaded with BP and the 480-gr PH grease-groove bullet that can also be used in lever actions, and a heavier paper-patched bullet looking like the 514-grainer that Sir Jerry got the mould for from Sir Bill Bagwell. Both bullets and both hunters are killer dillers.
45-70 Shiloh Sharps BPCR with 480-gr PH 161 yards, flattened zebra, DRT, bullet deflected from boiler room hit into spine. This is the only time Bill Bagwell has seen this bullet deflect from straight-line on a critter. I am guessing the bullet hit the humerus of right shoulder (stoutest bone in the zebra) at such an angle as to cause this mischief. Nevertheless it was an instant kill and a spectacular bullet failure of sorts, and a spectacular success nonetheless. Blank happens. I have heard tell of a monolithic brass solid from a .416-caliber rifle (400-grainer) turning a 90* angle promptly on entering the trunk of an elephant.
Chapter 4 of snapshots of Bill Bagwell's SMOKE OVER AFRICA video.
Blesbuck and more:
45-70 Shiloh Sharps BPCR with paper-patched bullet of about 514 grains, my guess, not stated in the video. 160 yards, pass through, DRT. In the video and snapshot one can see a burst of dirt/dust into the air, from impact of bullet with ground, well behind the blesbuck.
Field cleaning technique for BPCR as recommended by Bill Bagwell, conclusion of Ch. 4 of snapshots from the video SMOKE OVER AFRICA:
1. Unload rifle, open breech and blow 4 or 5 breaths into muzzle of rifle and 3 or 4 more breaths into breech end of rifle. Bill demonstrates this directly from his lips to his rifle, almost like he is kissing it on both ends. No jokes about that please. (Edit: The censor function catches nasty slang, on the site.) A blow tube might be handy except for having to carry it around in the field.
2. Dry cotton patch about 1.5" to 1.75" square: Push one dry patch down the bore from breech end using your wiping stick. The BP fouling wetted by moisture from your breath clings to dry patch and is mostly removed by one patch.
3. Use a second patch that has been wetted by saliva from your mouth. Stick patch in your mouth and hope you are not too dry to get some spit flowing. The wet patch is pushed through with wiping stick and removes all the fouling you need to get out.
4. The third patch is dry, and will feel a little grabby going down the bore from breech end on wiping stick.
5. The fourth patch is soaked with olive oil from a tiny plastic bottle in your pocket or field cleaning kit. Push it from breech to muzzle with wiping stick. This oils the bore, prevents any trace of hygroscopic BP fouling from attracting water vapor out of the air. The not-too-clean barrel will shoot to desired precision with next shot. Grease-groove bullets might be lubed anyway with olive-oil and beeswax 50:50 mix. Paper-patch bullets clean the bore with each shot.
This field cleaning is good for hunting use after several shots, or if putting the rifle away for a week or two. Do a more thorough cleaning and lubrication for longer term storage of the rifle. Then you will need to get it properly fouled to shoot straight. That is how I remember it from watching the video, Hope I got it right: 4 patches, some spit, some olive oil, and a wiping stick.
The dirty little non-secret about Bagwelling with a BPCR: BP fouling with the grease-groove bullets must be controlled with a wiping stick. Is there a fold-up version on shock-cord to fit in pants pocket ? The one for the 26"-barreled CVA Paramount .45-cal muzzleloader might be a bit short for a 28" to 30" Sharps. But, hey, one extra segment could be spliced in from a second CVA field ramrod. Come to think of it, the Lyman 457121 Whitworth Parker Hale bullet might be used in the CVA Paramount muzzleloader too, with real BP instead of Blackhorn 209. You will find the Lyman mould for Sir Bill Bagwell's "All Father" bullet in the Lyman listings under muzzleloader moulds. That takes us back to 1000-yard muzzleloader shooting when it first began in the 1850's with good ol' Mr. Whitworth's engineering of a proper recipe for bullet caliber, weight, and powder charge. About 480 grains of .45-caliber lead at about 1300 fps was good then, and it is still Bagwelling nearly 170 years later.
Above is a PH loaded into .45-2.6" Starline brass, which is intermediate to the .45-70 and .45-110 that Bagwell so well. The cartridge I show above is for the .45-70 Elko Magnum, which is the same as a .45-100-2.6" Sharps Straight with a .458 Winchester Magnum throat. I called it the .45-2.6" Sharps Winchester-Throated until I found out I had re-invented the wheel. It is only 2 grains of gross water bigger than the .458 Winchester Magnum 2.5". The .458 WM can be loaded with same loads as the .45-70 Elko Magnum, just play with the COL. If they are both loaded to same COL, the .458 WM 2.5" will have about 2 grains more net water capacity than the .45-2.6"-based cartridge.
Here is the Lyman 457121 mould for the PH bullet:
So, the .45-70 Elko Magnum and .458 WM are basically the same. They are throated the same. They have near identical case capacities. They can both be chambered in .458"-grooved barrels. The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat is ideal for paper-patched bullets, Paul Matthews told us so. I have experimented a bit with this, enough to know that BP works best with PP bullets. I have done it in the .45-70 Elko Magnum. Will do it in the .458 WM too. A grease-groove bullet with BP may also be used to Bagwell with the .458 WM and .458 WM+. But I sure do like Powder-coat painted, gas-checked bullets loaded with Blackhorn 209 for imitating the loads Selous slew so well with. They even make more smoke and foul more than most "smokeless" powders. I will call that Selousing, which is a lot like Bagwelling. Yes, I quest after Bagwelling with BP as well as Selousing with Blackhorn 209 in the .458 WM and .458 WM+.
Big Blue bullets are perfect at 3.340" COL as shown above. Weight in my alloy is 579 grains as shown above, after one coat of Eastwood Light Ford Blue PC paint and sized to 0.461" as the gas check is applied.
Sub-MOA at 200 yards for 3 shots, despite the accumulation of Blackhorn 209 fouling. Plus-MOA at 100 yards for 3 shots, blame me for that. 0.44 MOA at 50 yards for 3 shots. I like that load with Big Blue Bullet the 579-grainer: 3.340" COL 41.5 grains of Blackhorn 209 0.4" tall foam wad of half-inch diameter F215 primer R-P case Adequate for Selousing with the SAAMI .458 WM.
First was THE MISSION of .458 Winchester Magnum study, so enlightening. Then came THE CRUSADE FOR TRUTH well won and undeniably establishing that the .458 Lott eats the dust of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Now comes THE QUEST TO BAGWELL AND TO SELOUS with the .458 Winchester Magnum. More to come. Little Blue and Big Blue:
Sir Ron, you've got it going on, soon as I get through driving my tractor from farm to farm around here breaking pond ice for folks cattle and horses the weather will obviously be clear, at that time i'll fl size and trim the WW cases I've dedicated to the 458 Win Mag +, tumble em up nice and clean, load the 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS, get in a little range work, save the rest for another 'maybe' African Safari this fall, if I find a 40 inch Buffalo up on the Limpopo he'll get to meet that rifle.
Hopefully nobody dying around there with power failures and cold like in Texas, pradoxical in many ways as that may be. Good work watering the herds. Folks gotta eat eventually.
Weathered in here too, with 6 to 12 inches of snow hereabouts and temperatures in the single digits F. This allows a time of preparation for future (and always) work on 3 fronts. THE MISSION: Any and all information related to the .458 WM history and handloading technology. THE CRUSADE: Full power .458 WM and .458 WM+ handload proving in the hunting fields. THE QUEST: To Bagwell and to Selous with the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Selous was a forward looking chap who survived the muzzle-loading, huge, ball-tossing bore rifles, gushed over the BPCR and PP .461 Gibbs No. 1 and No. 2 for their comfort and efficiency with light express bullets and the heavies, and he even worked his way through .450 NE ballistics, the 425 WR, and even 6.5mm. That malformed 425 WR was the first "short magnum" ancestor of the .458 WM. It was able to accomplish what it did largely through long-leade throating, probably an influence on Winchester's engineering of the .458 WM. Selousing with a 400-grainer at about 2150 fps is quite fitting, with a smokeless "'Light Nitro" .458 WM, scopes permitted too, with Little Blue Bullet.
That charge of AA-2495 (72.0 grains) is about 101% LR/net fill, and perfect with no drop tube needed. It is a bulky and slow powder with very low pressure and very complete burning at low pressure. A "benchrest" sort of powder great for cast bullet loads or moderate velocity jacketed loads with no filler.
Here is a great bullet that should Bagwell&Selous well in a .458 WM. At .461" diameter sizing for best accuracy in .458" to 459" groove diameter barrels (THAT HAVE A SAAMI .458 WM THROAT !) 3.385" is the longest COL it can be loaded to in the .458 WM. Longer than that jams into throat. Maybe throat is the more important factor for the bullet sizing than a mere 0.001" difference in groove diameter. For whatever reason or both reasons, .461" works very well in the .458 WM with cast bullets.
In a 23"-barreled .458 WM (McGowen .458"-grooved) at 3.385" COL, a starting load of 65.0 grains of AA-2230 with no filler gave 1943 fps 5-yard velocity and good accuracy.
So, in Linotype and with PC paint and a gas check added it would be right near 500 grains. Linotype is maybe too brittle to Bagwell&Selous well. In 92-5-2-1 "hardball with arsenic" alloy it is 525 grains, harder, heavier, and less brittle than Linotype. Probably would be about 530 grains in clip-on WW alloy which is softer and only slightly heavier than 92-5-2-1 alloy. The clip-on wheel weights can be heat-treated harder. 92-5-2-1 alloy is my substitute for clip-on wheel weights. 92-5-2-1 alloy casts a larger diameter, less than 1% lighter, and harder without any heat treating other than water dropping. Any hardness lost by tempering in the PC-painting process (375 to 400 *F for 20 to 30 minutes) is regained by aging for 4 weeks.
Where is Global Warming when you need it ? I cast bullets outdoors in back yard and have been weathered out of that too ! Next up is a new thing for me, one of the N.O.E. Bullet Moulds offerings for a slick-sided "HTC" bullet. I am hoping the PCP and GC on this slick will work well with smokeless, like paper patch and black powder, like peas and carrots. I believe others have done well in the .458 WM with N.O.E. HTC bullets using powder-coat paint, and they even went on to post youtube videos of it: fortune cookie 45lc
The .458 WM COL for the HTC459-600 will likely be inside of the SAAMI COL limit of 3.340":
In hard alloy and PC-painted it will be sized to .461" as gas check applied. Weight should be close to 600-grains without hollow-pointing, using the FN pin. Using deepest of 3 depths of HP, it could be reduced to about 570-grans.
There is no exact drawing for this mould at N.O.E., but dimensions can be pieced together from 3 other drawings of HTC459-600 moulds:
Seated deep, to the only crimp groove, over about a 1-1/4" tall column of Trail Boss, might make a subsonic load requiring no fillers.
Take note of a reduced load using Unique with 500-grainer, should do well with your 485-grainer. Here is a snapshot of a fortune cookie 45lc youtube video with my comments "Painted" upon it, taken from the words of FC45LC:
That pointy bullet is an N.O.E. slick/HTC 500-grainer that has been PC-painted.
In another video, FC45LC fired a grease-grooved cast 500-ish-grain bullet in a SAAMI .458 WM. 5 shots were grease-lubed naked lead and sized to 0.458" and key-holed into a turkey-choke shotgun pattern at 50 yards. 5 shots were PC-painted plus grease-lubed and sized to same 0.458" yet formed a 5-shot group slightly bigger than one inch at 50 yards. Powder charge was same, about 50 grains of AA-2200, no filler, IIRC, and chrono velocities circa 1700 fps for both groups. Short-COL seating was same for both.
I bet if fortune cookie 45LC had sized all the bullets to 0.461", both batches would have done better.
They say that cast bullets with longer ogives are less accurate than those with shorter noses. Here is another mould from Accurate Molds, another substitute for the 400-gr TSX denied to the public when Remington owned Barnes:
The 40-65 WCF mould was made sometime after 1887 and still makes good bullets.
Maybe the LBT hardness tester gizmo takes more skill than I have. I find the Lee hardness tester kit to be much more reliable and consistent on repeat measurements:
The 50:50 reference above is to a mixture of 1 part Linotype to 1 part 92-5-2-1 alloy (aka Alloy 25, aka hardball with arsenic). Weight of the mix is intermediate to the components. Really not worth doing.
A comparison of clip-on wheel weight alloy to "hardball with arsenic" alloy, for relative weight:
The clip-on wheel weight alloy is about 1 % heavier.
Take note of a reduced load using Unique with 500-grainer, should do well with your 485-grainer. Here is a snapshot of a fortune cookie 45lc youtube video with my comments "Painted" upon it, taken from the words of FC45LC:
That pointy bullet is an N.O.E. slick/HTC 500-grainer that has been PC-painted.
In another video, FC45LC fired a grease-grooved cast 500-ish-grain bullet in a SAAMI .458 WM. 5 shots were grease-lubed naked lead and sized to 0.458" and key-holed into a turkey-choke shotgun pattern at 50 yards. 5 shots were PC-painted plus grease-lubed and sized to same 0.458" yet formed a 5-shot group slightly bigger than one inch at 50 yards. Powder charge was same, about 50 grains of AA-2200, no filler, IIRC, and chrono velocities circa 1700 fps for both groups. Short-COL seating was same for both.
I bet if fortune cookie 45LC had sized all the bullets to 0.461", both batches would have done better.
Most Excellent ! Ya, 16 gr of Unique is Definately doable. That Accurate mold I'm planning on doesn't have a very wide meplat . That shouldn't be a problem as the cast bullets won't be my primary hunting or game bullet. However with enough practice I should be able to fill the freezer . Learning the trajectory of both a bp equivalent velocity and a high velocity loads . Should be enough for my memory banks. Would be fun doin it semi Old School.
Great to see all the focus on the original Monolithic bullet here! As always Ron amazes with work, detail, accuracy and photographic skills. The 458WM T has always been a great choice for Cast shooting. We have exposed the Truth of that over the last couple of years along with all the other Myths Busted. Thank you Ron for pointing out the heat treatment results versus Aging data. Lot easier to let them lay in the bullet drawer than heat treat them. I do think that the presence or lack there of for the two elements, Antimony and Arsenic, play a role in Heat treating. I don't see any reason to explore that except for the cause of science because if we can get to 20 + BHN with 95-2-1 alloy, we simply need nothing better for a hunting bullet. Best regards fellow, Fury01
Great to see all the focus on the original Monolithic bullet here! As always Ron amazes with work, detail, accuracy and photographic skills. The 458WM T has always been a great choice for Cast shooting. We have exposed the Truth of that over the last couple of years along with all the other Myths Busted. Thank you Ron for pointing out the heat treatment results versus Aging data. Lot easier to let them lay in the bullet drawer than heat treat them. I do think that the presence or lack there of for the two elements, Antimony and Arsenic, play a role in Heat treating. I don't see any reason to explore that except for the cause of science because if we can get to 20 + BHN with 95-2-1 alloy, we simply need nothing better for a hunting bullet. Best regards fellow, Fury01
He is one of a kind that is for sure. I always loved those old gun articles from both magazines and books he put up on the old Democrat sponsored AR's 458 thread.
Sir Bill Bagwell passed on to The Happy Hunting Ground today. Rush Limbaugh went ahead of Bill by a few hours to clear the way for Bill. Two heroes. Amen.
That Accurate mold I'm planning on doesn't have a very wide meplat . That shouldn't be a problem as the cast bullets won't be my primary hunting or game bullet. However with enough practice I should be able to fill the freezer . Learning the trajectory of both a bp equivalent velocity and a high velocity loads . Should be enough for my memory banks. Would be fun doin it semi Old School.
Sir Spruce, Your 0.285" meplat is 62% of caliber, plenty good, about ideal ! Sir Bill Bagwell said even the small FN meplats are helpful on impact. Accurate Molds makes only FN meplats and the smallest they make is what, 0.180" ? About 39 % of caliber for a .458. Smaller meplat does offer better BC and better feeding possibly. It is a trade off. If velocity is higher and impact medium harder, they all turn into big FN meplats !
Great to see all the focus on the original Monolithic bullet here! Right ! Very reliable and predictable, those first monolithics of lead, and paper-patched was the first jacket material. One just has to Learn how to Bagwell and Selous with them.
... The 458WM T has always been a great choice for Cast shooting. We have exposed the Truth of that over the last couple of years along with all the other Myths Busted. Thank you Ron for pointing out the heat treatment results versus Aging data. Lot easier to let them lay in the bullet drawer than heat treat them. I do think that the presence or lack there of for the two elements, Antimony and Arsenic, play a role in Heat treating. I don't see any reason to explore that except for the cause of science because if we can get to 20 + BHN with 95-2-1 alloy, 92-5-2-1 we simply need nothing better for a hunting bullet. Best regards fellow, Fury01
Sir Dennis (Fury01 to those in Rio Linda who don't keep up with the Knight titles),
Above repeated for emphasis, and to correct a minor typo.
10 pounds of Lawrence Brand Magnum Shot (shot size 7-1/2) + 0.5 pounds (8 ounces) of 50:50 (lead:tin) solder = 92-5-2-1 Alloy = Alloy 25 = Hard Ball with Arsenic Alloy 92% lead 5% antimony 2% tin 1% arsenic Best I can tell, but whatever it is it works pretty well.
Where are all the great cast bullet loads for the .458 Lott, I wonder ?
Sir Bill Bagwell passed on to The Happy Hunting Ground today. Rush Limbaugh went ahead of Bill by a few hours to clear the way for Bill. Two heroes. Amen.
I want to try the 400 gr Woodleigh in my .460 Wby and .450 Howell.
Ken, The .460 Wby and .450 Howell aren't nearly powerful enough for jackrabbits. You should be looking at a .505 Gibbs
Or maybe a .500 A2.
I think Woodleigh make a 510 of 440 grains that is a Black Powder Express bullet. Should do will in a 500 A2. Get a 500 A2 and just neck up 460s and then also neck 'em back down.
Just when you think 2021 has got to be better than 2020, Bill Bagwell and Rush Limbaugh returned their talents to God on the same day, 2-17-2021. I didn't start looking for Bill Bagwell Bowies on the internet until the next day and they had all been sold soon as they were put up. But I kept googling and being more amazed at the prodigy from Louisiana. Bill made a trophy Bowie at age 14 y.o. in 1958. It was seen pictured in the collection of a Frenchman, # 1 in the spread below to which I have added the numbers, clockwise in a a circle of 21 Bagwell Blades apparently owned by one Frog:
This might be the guy who owns them, wearing the gold and jewel encrusted one (# 18 above) like a pendant on a gold neck chain:
How is this related to the .458 WM ? A Bagwell Bowie is to survival knives as a .458 WM is to survival rifles. That's how. Subtitle of the magazine below: "The Cutting Edge of Survival"
No better knife, no better smokeless rifle chambering. And bill was a master with a .458-grooved rifle to boot and told us how to make them very effective and pleasant to shoot. Just like his Knives were very effective and pleasant to look at. Nuff said. Sir Jerry's Bagwell Bowie next to a .458 WM+ TBSS load says it well:
Back in time to the cover shots on the 1983 Bill Bagwell catalog/brochure, offered for sale for $295, or will trade for another year the owner does not have:
From his book that includes his 1984 to 1988 SOF feature articles and a later compilation of history and techniciana, I think I was able to order one of those: BOWIES BIG KNIVES AND THE BEST OF BATTLE BLADES
Snapshots from Bill's youtube "shoptalk, etc." videos, circa 2007:
I watched those and got so inspired that I went to work on my old keepsake USMC knife from the 1960's:
The original scabbard is gone, a nylon sheath from a gunshow table stands in for the 10-ounce, 7"-bladed fightin' knife that climbed many trees in my childhood. That is about all the gilding that lilly will stand. I do have a couple of Ruana Bowies that I will trade for a Bagwell Bowie, sumbuddy please, just let me know how much boot you want. I should have got out more and learned about Bill Bagwell Bowies before there was a 3-year wait for one in 2017.
Bill Bagwell approved SMOKELESS load for the Lyman PH 480-ish-grainer in the .45-70 Government as shown above, cast in WW/PB 50:50 alloy dip-lubed with 50:50 beeswax and olive oil:
IMR-3031: 38.5 grains Standard Large Rifle primer of your choice MV circa 1350 fps in Shiloh Sharps, accurate. Might be slowed down to perfect Bagwell velocity in a Marlin or Winchester lever action. Recommended to a bear guide who was very happy with it.
Wisdom of Bill Bagwell: "Shooting is supposed to be like sex, fun not painful."
Baie danke for the flowers. I bet you liked that .475 Linebaugh bear picture. I have cabin fever, like in Alaska but with no access to snowmobiles and dogsleds here.
Currently -24° F. Here in Delta Junction. Looks like the sun will be out today so that is nice. I agree with jwp 475 , you should write an encyclopedia of your exploits in rifles. James Watts didn't have near the knowledge stored in his grey matter that you do Ron. And where would we be without his documenting what he did.
I have ordered the same bullet design as you did from Accurate Molds. But I am making mine a 2-cavity brass with the 46-485N (yours) as one cavity
and the 46-485Z as the other cavity.
I also have the N.O.E. HTC459-500-SP-BP2 2-cavity aluminum mould on the way,
That is the one that FortuneCookie45LC found pleasing with PC paint at about Mach 1 MV. Here is some data at N.O.E. shown with that HTC459-500-grainer:
The Accurate 46-485Z is sort of like that one but with the pointy tip cut off from 0.080" meplat on the N.O.E. to 0.180" on the Accurate, and N.O.E. is plain base, Accurate is GC. I bet the stubbier 46-485N with 0.285" meplat FNGC is going to be the most accurate.
BTW, note that it takes 21 grains of UNIQUE to get that N.O.E. 500-grainer up to just over 1300 fps in the .458 WM.
With the 485-grain FNGC from Accurate, about 20 grains of UNIQUE might be good to Bagwell with a .458 WinMag. 13 grains of UNIQUE is going to be quite subsonic with that 485-grainer in the .458 WinMag, whose case capacity is like a 45-98 Sharps Substitute.
I'm nervous/ hoping Spruce King likes to feed this boolit. If he won't I'll sell the mold and get one with a smaller meplat. But, I think it will feed. It always fed the 510 gr Winchester soft nose.
Now a bit of business for Knights of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum. For get-togethers at the Round Table, attire is casual with Bowie carried open or concealed as per personal preference. A Bagwell is much preferred but you will not be turned away from business functions if a Ruana or lesser Bowie is all you can come up with. Any formal knighting ceremonies will be carried out with a Bagwell Bowie as the ceremonial sword.
Sir Spruce,
Do not worry about that 0.285" meplat. If you seat it short, in the crimping groove instead of in the lower grease grooves, it will feed in Spruce King like poop through a goose.
That Z boolit does look pretty cool ! I hope it shoots well. It looks like NOE hasn't been reading The Mission ! Using 3031 instead of 2230 , 2495 or 335 . No doubt that will be rectified soon 👍
Yep, that load data is a bit dated. I would substitute Hodgdon's BENCHMARK, grain for grain, for that antique IMR-3031. For nostalgia's sake, BLACK POWDER ! Reminds me that I am going to switch to casting in soft alloy for paper-patched and BP loads for the .45-98 Sharps Belted, aka .458 WM+. Ross Seyfried said that for Lead & Tin mixes, 40:1 is the softest and 20:1 is the hardest that worked well in his .461 Gibbs No. 2 with a 570-gr paper-patched. He said that one time he sucked a case neck down the bore by trying too-soft, pure lead.
The .461 Gibbs rifles were chambered with tight necks. The actual bore diameter of the rifles was .461", and grooves were ,472". The greatest bullet diameter that can be loaded in the .461 Gibbs No. 2 case and still be able to chamber the round is .461" to .462". So, the paper-patched lead slicks were about .453" diameter, patched up to .461" diameter including patch. The rear third of the bullet obturated into the rifling, and the front two thirds of the paper-wrapped bullet rode the bore diameter. It worked well in that Metford rifling with a bit of gain twist, might have gone from 1:22" at breech end to 1:18" at muzzle end of barrel. Hence I shall try a soft lead slick of .442" diameter/ 530-gr weight patched up to bore diameter of .450" in the .45-98 Sharps Belted. Big Blue is the other side of that brass, 2-cavity mould, so it will get cast in 20:1 also, which should still be pretty close to 579 grains. BP for the paper-patched, Blackhorn 209 for Big Blue the FNGC with PC paint.
I have seen clip-on wheel weights rated at 10 to 12 BHN. I am leery of relying on wheel weights since I am not sitting on a big pile of them, and can't know the composition of COWW I might scratch up. I will scratch up some certified Lead/Tin mixes instead, for consistency.
As for my newest dynamic duo of 485-grainers with GC and PC paint: Hard ball alloy and smokeless powders all the way Recreate the original 450 NE 3-1/4 Inch ballistics with those.
2125 fps with a factory Hornady 500-gr DGX, 23" barrel. 2511 fps with a GSC HV 400-gr handload, 23" barrel. Neither load uses compressed powder. Ain't too shabby for the first 6 shots fired in a new barrel, .458 WM. I feel pretty confident that this 23" barrel can do 2600 fps with 400-gr Woodleigh at COL of 3.425". A 25" Shilen did 2627 fps with heavily compressed H4895. And the .458 Lott cried "wee wee wee" all the way home.
Ruana Deluxe Bowie at top, 9-1/2" blade, 20 ounces. Ruana Early American Bowie at bottom, 11-1/2" blade, 30 ounces. Will throw in the handmade scabbard for the heavier one, factory sheath for the lighter one. Concealed carry of either of these will require the Bill Bagwell style of sheath, inside the belly sash or belt. Do not try sticking it down a pants leg, keep it outside of pants.
VH: Initials of Vic Hangas, son-in-law of Rudy Ruana who founded Ruana Knife Works, Inc., in Bonner, MT. Vic's sons still run it. R.I.P. Vic and Rudy. Here is the biggest Bowie in their catalog, the "Classic Bowie" with 14" blade, their interpretation of Jim Bowie's original:
I learned leathercraft, self taught, while in prison. The prison I was in did not offer a leathercraft program. Had to do something to relieve the boredom of prison life. I even made myself a leather prescription pad cover. Retirement from prison life sure has been great.
Everybody needs a Bowie and a .458 Winchester Magnum. They go together like peas and carrots. They are required equipment for all Knights of the Crusade for Truth.
LOL, slappin leather livin' the Thug Life! .................................i'll get you a pic this weekend, Bagwell Bowie and 458 Winchester Magnum+.
Missing our old Buddy bad Sir Ron, all things Sharps rifles are different now, really a confused somber journey, if He could speak to me, I'm sure he'd holler carry on Son!
Knight's honor. Sounds like a plan. Thank you very very much. Or as Elvis would say in Afrikaans, baie baie danke. And as the announcer says at the Happy Hunting Grounds Knife & Gun Show when Bill takes a break to bang the ram at 500 yards with barrel sights: "Bill Bagwell has left the house."
This rifle has proven good with smokeless loads and every cast and jacketed load tried in it so far. Rifle weight being a little on the light side, it is important to have confidence in keeping any scopes or rear sights to stay attached in recoil. Here is one way that works pretty well:
Here is the rear scope base when she was still wearing the factory walnut stock:
That fold-down/pop-up Magpul rear sight cold be put on the rear base, for long range harassing fire, along with the FastFire3 on the front base for shorter range "fast fire" use. 7#15oz with both rear sights attached and otherwise naked and empty rifle. Add 4 rounds of ammo and still under 8.5#.
The Warne and LeupoldMark4 are both solid steel, same high quality, 20-MOA Picatinny rails. The Warne fits the top of receiver with no over-hang or under-hang of receiver top at either end. The Leupold Mark4 comes with a set of both 8x40 and 6x48 screws, but under-hangs rear of receiver and over-hangs front of receiver, which may actually be more desirable for getting more eye relief with some scopes, on a .458 WM.
Is there another make of 20-MOA Picatinny rail out there that will fit a Winchester M70 LA-3.6" without having to have another hole drilled in it ? Sumbuddy who know ?
A couple more Winchester M70 LA-3.6" actions with 2-piece bases instead of 1-piece rails: 8X40 Screwed and Glued with J-B Weld:
Too bad the bolt faces on those two were opened up by about 0.010" for .404 Jeffery, instead of for .458 WM+. Switching of bolts and barrels would be required. But I thank God they are not Blasers.
Knight's honor. Sounds like a plan. Thank you very very much. Or as Elvis would say in Afrikaans, baie baie danke. And as the announcer says at the Happy Hunting Grounds Knife & Gun Show when Bill takes a break to bang the ram at 500 yards with barrel sights: "Bill Bagwell has left the house."
Yes Sir, going to go dig a hole for him Saturday, somber, sad, yet respectful duty ahead, I will be proud to toil and will not tire.
The weather broke today: 52 degrees F, sunny, 9 mph north wind. I fired 12 rounds of 500-gr Hornady InterLock with Hodgdon CFE 223, 3 rounds each with 83, 84, 85, and 86 grains, COL 3.480". I fired 12 rounds of 500-gr Hornady InterLock with Alliant Power Pro VARMINT, 3 rounds each with 79, 80, 81, and 82 grains, COL 3.480". I fired 30 rounds of 450-gr Barnes TSX with H4895, 3 rounds with each 1-grain increment from 71 to 80 grains. I was quite happy with results. Will report them shortly. Daisy the Ruger No. 1 .458 WM+ performed like a champ again. The 1.75" thick block of high-density foam rubber allowed me to enjoy her immensely. No headache. No bruising or soreness of shoulder. I would love to do that every day. Pleased to note the CFE 223 actually does prevent copper fouling, might even remove pre-existing copper fouling.
Alliant Power Pro 1200R is a faster powder than any of the above 3, and maker claims excellent temperature independence. I did not get a chance to try that yet. Will do so next time out: 450-gr TSX with AA-2230 and APP-1200R with COL about 3.565".
It is always better to beat a .458 Lott with a COL of less than 3.6".
Fastest to slowest burn rates:
106) Alliant Power Pro 1200-R 115) AA-2230 116) AA-2460 119) H4895 125) Alliant Power Pro VARMINT (same burn rate, 125), as AA-2495 in the table I am using) 140) CFE 223
speaking of recoil pad. will try a inflatable wedge bag use in construction able to inflate it has hard has you want this bag is used to level window framing or household appliance to level them dimension is about 5x5 the air cushion I think would absorb the recoil what do you think?
Canuckistan, About the 5"x5" construction airbag: Give it a try and let us know. It will either be good or it will make the rifle bounce forward off your shoulder. Hold tight.
Originally Posted by canuckistan
my winchester is in 458. rifle crank
it has a recoil stop you are able to see it in the last photo
Richard at near is outstanding for customer service
I have measured the magazine and it is a 3.4
the spacing between the 2 most spaced screw is 5.520 center to center
if I am not mistaken Richard does custom work maybe he could make it for you
give him a line
I will do that. I do see the recoil stop on the bottom of your rail, and it would be perfect on the LA-3.6" with only one hole needing to be placed differently, I bet. It would probably be a good idea to glass bed the recoil stop where it touches the rear of the front receiver ring.
Richard Near: Great service by merely a telephone call. Turns out he made 10,000 of the NEAR Picatinny rails for Winchester, after FN bought them, before the move to SC, used on their tactical-packaged/PM-type M70 rifles. He had just what I needed in stock, both flat and 25-MOA tilt, for the "Express" action with 0.330" hole spacing at the rear. And yes, he can do up to 75-MOA tilt as a custom order ! You pay $10 extra for black nitride coating on the bead-blasted stainless finish, all made of the same steel. With the recoil stop, 6x48 screws are OK. Phone number: +1 (780) 608-2441, Camrose Alberta, Canada. Richard said his latest stuff can be found at www.trg42.com and I would say another site that google took me to has not been updated in 10 years, but had the correct telephone #. Will check out trg42.com. Thanks again.
Oops, make that "same windage with 450-gr TSX 1 inch higher at 50 yards than the 500-gr RN" which is still a pretty useful thing. Get the 500-gr RN soft (or FN solid hopefully) zeroed at 100 yards and the 450-gr TSX will be shooting higher for longer range use with gentler recoil. Both delivering over 5000 ft-lbs of muzzle-KE.
We also see that the greater recoil of 85 grains of CFE 223 makes the 500-grainer shoot higher than with 80 grains of VARMINT, even though the lower-recoil VARMINT load is slightly faster in MV. When you are stuck with 50-yard targets, it is like watching angels dance on the head of a silly millimeter.
Daisy did it again:
The caduceus wings over the .458 WinMag head stamp means it's just what the doctor ordered. Good medicine.
Powders of interest in the .458 WM and .458 WM+: Anything good in a .223 Rem.
Hodgdon's CFE 223 really works, cleaning copper out of bore. It would be highly desirable for any 550-gr to 600-gr bullets no doubt, being a slower powder than the other two below.
Alliant's Power Pro Varmint seems ideal for 500-grainers.
Alliant's Power Pro 1200-R may be best reserved for lighter bullets, being quite a bit faster than VARMINT. But it is said to have excellent ThermoBallisticIndependence, what I call TBI, not meaning Tennessee Bureau of Investigation.
Don't forget about the .45-98 Sharps Belted with Blackhorn 209 and cast bullets, even those with PC-paint and gas check, or greased and plain base, whatever turns your riflecrank, heck even BP and paper-patched works wonderfully well in the .458 WM and .458 WM+:
It will be fun to try to Bagwell and to Selous with "barrel sights" on a .458 WM. Marcella here will be about 8.5 pounds field ready and fully loaded. That is about what the graceful .461 Gibbs No. 2 of Selous weighed with its slender 28" barrel and incredible barrel sights, offering sight settings for both 360-grainers at ~1800 fps and 570-grainers at ~1300 fps, paper patched BP. Selous also graduated to 480-grainers at 2100-2200 fps with the coming of the "Nitro Express" era and metal-patched bullets. To Bagwell reqires a 480-ish to 540-ish grainer at 1200-1400 fps, ballistics of the Bison Hunters, with .45-caliber Sharps rifles using grease-grooved or paper-patched bullets. So the .458 WM+ becomes either a .458 BPE Belted, a .458 NFBPE Belted, with .460" to .461" cast bullets, or a .458 NE Belted for Selousing with .458" to .459" jacketed bullets ...
Ron, many thanks for the CFE223 load info. I had hoped that it would yield more velocity with 500 grain bullets, but, as you have noted, it is a very slow powder for this application. Also as you said, it might do very well with 550-600 grain bullets. That brings up a question that I have not seen answered definitively: Are there any applications of the .458 Win Mag+ in which a 550 or 600 grain bullet pushed to 2100-2150 fps would be noticeably superior to a modern 450-500 grain bullet at full velocity?
That is a very good question. I prefer the 450-gr and 500-gr monometals at higher velocities than with the 550-grain cup&core, Some will swear by their 550-grain cup&core-bonded Woodleigh at 2100 fps from the SAAMI .458 WM. I bet they are not just being profane. As long as the bullet is not a monometal copper or brass bullet exceeding 1.6" in length, no worries, just my SWAG. The overwhelming consensus is that the 500-grain solid of any type at 2100 fps is optimum for elephant pass throughs at 25 to 50-yard range. Inside of 25 yards they might penetrate less, especially noted in the days of the RNFMJ solids. Something about a bullet getting better stabilized 25 yards down range, and lesser velocity means less tissue resistance. Maybe the FN solid overcomes some of this close-range instability, and might be better at higher velocity than the old RN.
With the RNSN at 2100 fps, a 550-grainer has more momentum and KE and will drive expansion better at same velocity as the 500-grainer.
Yet Richard Harland reported great things with 450-gr solids at 2300 fps for elephant hunting with the SAAMI .458 WM
Finn Aagaard reported the first generation X-Bullet of 400-gr weight and no more than 2300 fps from the SAAMI .458 WM was more devastating in wound channel volume and penetration depth than any other 500-gr soft he tested in his artificial media, and Phil Shoemaker verified it on big brown bear and such live game.
Bill Bagwell reported that the cast FN .458"/ 480-gr at just under 1300 fps would pass through game routinely, bison at 75 yards, through both shoulders, and deer-sized game at 300-yards. The slow bullet generates less tissue resistance, and at such velocities the cast lead does not over-expand, penetrates deep.
It is not a stretch to think that a 450-grain FN monometal solid at around 2300 fps would be ideal for either elephant or blue whale with a SAAMI .458 WM+. The 500-gr TBSS with bronze FN and bonded lead core (1.400" bullet length for 500-gr weight) at 2300 fps might be the best of all possible worlds, in a magic wand like a .458 WM+, at lower pressure than can be done with a .458 Lott.
It is amusing to see that the Woodleigh Bullets manual shows the 550-gr loads getting 2110 fps in the .458 WM and only 5 fps more in the .458 Lott: 2115 fps MV We know we can easily beat that with the .458 WM loaded to longer than 3.340" COL, up to 3.6" COL like the .458 Lott.
See Woodleigh bullet lengths above compared to some other makes:
The 550-gr FMJ (RN) is 1.521" long ... the 450-gr TSX is 1.520" long ... the 500-gr Barnes Banded Solid FN is 1.520" long
The 550-gr RN SN is 1.414" long ... Bubba's 400-gr TS-improved-X is 1.400" long ... Gen. 1 Barnes X-Bullet 400-gr is 1.345" long (no grooves)
The 500-gr PP SN is 1.394" long ... Federal's TBSS (FN) 500-gr is 1.400" long
The 500-gr FMJ (RN) is 1.388" long ... Barnes Banded Solid FN 450-gr is 1.375" long
The 500-gr RN SN is 1.305" long
The Lyman #457121 PH 480-gr FN grease-grooved is 1.220" long (50:50 WW/Pb)
Shooting 480-grainers at 1300 fps from a .458-caliber rifle is said to be as much fun as one can have with his pants on. Always wear pants when you go hunting.
Sir Ron, more good stuff indeed, ideas pop, getting a cannelure tool and LFCD'ing the 550 Woodleighs at 3.575" and driving them to 2250 fps in the 458 Win Mag+ would be another challenge, betting AA-2460 would indeed be the choice propellant.
I have a hunch that will work. I cheated by loading all the way to 3.600" with a 543-gr FNGC that is only 1.353" long in a SAAMI-chambered .458 WM, whereas the SAAMI .458 Lott cannot even accept that bullet at 3.500" COL. Nowhere near the kind of cheating the DALDs do continuously, however
One of the most interesting collections of posts I’ve read in a long time. Got up just to check on the dog and..... an hour + later I’ve read all 18 pages. The only ‘fix’ is to pull my neglected Ruger No.1 458WM out of the safe and put it in my home office for admiring again as I do some bookkeeping today. Thankfully I already have ammo, brass, bullets, etc., or I’d have to go to a LGS hoping for a ‘miracle find’. So refreshing to find out my 458WM is still a viable cartridge after hearing “It isn’t a LOTT” everywhere. GREAT READ!
Ron, many thanks for the CFE223 load info. I had hoped that it would yield more velocity with 500 grain bullets, but, as you have noted, it is a very slow powder for this application. Also as you said, it might do very well with 550-600 grain bullets. That brings up a question that I have not seen answered definitively: Are there any applications of the .458 Win Mag+ in which a 550 or 600 grain bullet pushed to 2100-2150 fps would be noticeably superior to a modern 450-500 grain bullet at full velocity?
Hi mate,
I currently load the 550gn Woodleigh in my .458
I load my OAL to 3.40 and I'm using 73gn of Benchmark 2 and I get a chronographed 2080fps out of the 24" barrel of my Zastava.
There's a guy up north of Australia who is quite well known for building big-bore rifles, who has used them on Water Buffalo out of his .458 and says they are VERY emphatic killers. He's using AR2208 (VARGET) powder and getting 2070fps out of his push-feed Winny and he speaks highly of the 550gn Woodleighs. He's also quite fond of the .458 and has even started a page dedicated to the .458 on Facebook.
I really like the 550 Woodleighs. They load easily, are accurate and from what I've been told (by someone who's used them on Buffalo) hit really hard. That's what I'll be using when I hunt Water Buffalo up Northern Territory next year. They're everything I think of when I think of the .458WM.
Ron, many thanks for the CFE223 load info. I had hoped that it would yield more velocity with 500 grain bullets, but, as you have noted, it is a very slow powder for this application. Also as you said, it might do very well with 550-600 grain bullets. That brings up a question that I have not seen answered definitively: Are there any applications of the .458 Win Mag+ in which a 550 or 600 grain bullet pushed to 2100-2150 fps would be noticeably superior to a modern 450-500 grain bullet at full velocity?
Hi mate,
I currently load the 550gn Woodleigh in my .458
I load my OAL to 3.40 and I'm using 73gn of Benchmark 2 and I get a chronographed 2080fps out of the 24" barrel of my Zastava.
There's a guy up north of Australia who is quite well known for building big-bore rifles, who has used them on Water Buffalo out of his .458 and says they are VERY emphatic killers. He's using AR2208 (VARGET) powder and getting 2070fps out of his push-feed Winny and he speaks highly of the 550gn Woodleighs. He's also quite fond of the .458 and has even started a page dedicated to the .458 on Facebook.
I really like the 550 Woodleighs. They load easily, are accurate and from what I've been told (by someone who's used them on Buffalo) hit really hard. That's what I'll be using when I hunt Water Buffalo up Northern Territory next year. They're everything I think of when I think of the .458WM.
NOE has gaz check expander in doing so its harder to crimp them on with a lube sizer much easier with the Lee cast bullet seizing die that fits on a regular press, they have 2 kind both of them are good but the new version will be less expansive
More good stuff Sir Ron, i've had a crazy two weeks burying friends and carrying off froze to death new calves from neighboring farms, holy damn, gotta shake my head clear, brought one frozen calf home so the guys kids wouldn't see it, [very small farm] have shot two coyotes off it so far, if there's a silver lining..................i'll get that pic to you this weekend, it'll be ode to Trump, Bill Bagwell, and the 458 Win Mag+
More good stuff Sir Ron, i've had a crazy two weeks burying friends and carrying off froze to death new calves from neighboring farms, holy damn, gotta shake my head clear, brought one frozen calf home so the guys kids wouldn't see it, [very small farm] have shot two coyotes off it so far, if there's a silver lining..................i'll get that pic to you this weekend, it'll be ode to Trump, Bill Bagwell, and the 458 Win Mag+
Looking forward to that, Sir Jerry.
I have been loading some .45 Long Colt cowboy loads for a buddy recently, he cannot find any on the shelves locally, and I gotta butter him up so I can hunt deer on his 220 acres.
I will load some Speer shot capsule loads while I am at it, in both the .45 LC and the .458 WM. A .45 shot capsule in a .458-cal rifle might be even better than in a .452 handgun, adding to the versatility of the .458 WM+. Using 7-1/2 shot, adequate for squirrel.
One of the most interesting collections of posts I’ve read in a long time. Got up just to check on the dog and..... an hour + later I’ve read all 18 pages. The only ‘fix’ is to pull my neglected Ruger No.1 458WM out of the safe and put it in my home office for admiring again as I do some bookkeeping today. Thankfully I already have ammo, brass, bullets, etc., or I’d have to go to a LGS hoping for a ‘miracle find’. So refreshing to find out my 458WM is still a viable cartridge after hearing “It isn’t a LOTT” everywhere. GREAT READ!
Alaninga,
If you want to be proclaimed a "Knight of the Crusade for Truth about the the .458 Winchester Magnum," just make a total of 7 posts on this thread and ask to be Knighted. You own a .458 WM. Don't ever let it go and you will not be sorry.
More good stuff Sir Ron, i've had a crazy two weeks burying friends and carrying off froze to death new calves from neighboring farms, holy damn, gotta shake my head clear, brought one frozen calf home so the guys kids wouldn't see it, [very small farm] have shot two coyotes off it so far, if there's a silver lining..................i'll get that pic to you this weekend, it'll be ode to Trump, Bill Bagwell, and the 458 Win Mag+
Looking forward to that, Sir Jerry.
I have been loading some .45 Long Colt cowboy loads for a buddy recently, he cannot find any on the shelves locally, and I gotta butter him up so I can hunt deer on his 220 acres.
I will load some Speer shot capsule loads while I am at it, in both the .45 LC and the ,458 WM. A .45 shot capsule in a .458-cal rifle might be even better than in a .452 handgun, adding to the versatility of the .458 WM+. Using 7-1/2 shot, adequate for squirrel.
Yes Sir Ron, with the added bonus of 3/4 rounds of 500gr TBSS hellfire at 2360 fps held in reserve when needed, hope you draw some sugar and get keys to the gate ; ]
Ron - good to see you found a new home here and continuing the work you started.
I’m about move in to making my own PC bullets. I notice you’ve used a few different types. Is there any type/brand better than any other?
Do you have any trouble fitting a GC after applying PC?
JFE,
Thanks for the reply to THE CRUSADE. Baie danke. The .458 WM is excellent with just about any cast bullet you want to shoot through it.
For low velocity, soft lead bullets, .459" and no more than 1400 fps works well with PC paint or grease-groove. For velocity up to 2200 fps better use a gas check, powder-coat paint and size to .461".
Canuckistan's advice is good, easy to apply a Hornady or Lyman gas check with the simple Lee base-pusher bullet-sizing die After PC paint, size and apply gas check at same time.
Powder-coat paint: Harbor Freight Red is plenty good. Eastwood Ford Light Blue might be a little better. You won't go wrong with either of those.
I let my first 458WM a Ruger 77, go after having fun with it. Took a few deer and thought I was through with it. Wrong. Had to scratch a reoccurring itch with a nicely walnut figured No.1 on the ‘like new -used rack at a LGS. Now I feel better. The D weight barrel weighs a ton. Reached deep in the gun safe to pick it up and out and thought it was stuck to the floor. Nope, just gravity holding it.
A Ruger No.1 in 458WM, I ask “who could look through that big hole in the barrel from the breech end, and NOT think about all the cool ‘stuff’ a guy could blast through it!?” 🤔😆
Sounds like the usual young whippersnapper. Been there, done that. I shot a water buffalo ( Bubalis bubalis ) with a 500-gr factory load for the 460 Wby into center of chest at 50 yards. It just stood there bleeding from its nose and looking at me like I owed it money until I shot it again in the neck, with a .375 H&H handed to me by my gunbearer, Lemuel.
Trying to come up with an average, all-around bullet weight for bullets of all types and all velocities, it seems that the original weight of 480 grains that started the great success of Joseph Whitworth in the 1850's with 1000-yard muzzleloaders, carried over into the 577/450 Martini Henry military service, and .461 Gibbs Military Match loads, and finally ended up with metal-jacketed bullets at 2150 to 2200 fps for the dawning of the Nitro Express age, yep, 480 grainers will do. Saint Bagwell has proven that weight with semi-hard, FN lead at 1300 fps will zip through bison, from a BPCR .45-70 Govt. I propose to load 480-grainers from 1300 fps to 2300 fps. Maybe even a VLD .458/ 480-grainer some day at 2400 fps via 3.8" COL from the .458 WM+, for 1125-yard gong shooting ? Until then, 1300 fps to 2300 fps with other 480-grainers at less than 3.600" COL and way lower pressure than a .458 Lott suffers.
... The .458 WM is excellent with just about any cast bullet you want to shoot through it.
For low velocity, soft lead bullets, .459" and no more than 1400 fps works well with PC paint or grease-groove. For velocity up to 2200 fps better use a gas check, powder-coat paint and size to .461".
Canuckistan's advice is good, easy to apply a Hornady or Lyman gas check with the simple Lee base-pusher bullet-sizing die After PC paint, size and apply gas check at same time.
Powder-coat paint: Harbor Freight Red is plenty good. Eastwood Ford Light Blue might be a little better. You won't go wrong with either of those.
Ron, Thanks for that info. I was just searching the AR thread in PDF form to try and figure out what size bullet sizing dies I needed. I'm slowly pulling together what I need to start casting with the Lyman 457406 mold. I was foiled Saturday because the mold handles I have don't open quite wide enough. Not sure why. Jeff
Just to clarify my comment about the mold handles not fitting - the dies on the left (a single 0.358 bullet) fit in the handles I have fine; the set on the right (the 0.457"bullet) won't fit in the handles. I presume a new set of Lyman "double-cavity" mould handles should work.
Remember that hard lead-alloy bullets will spring back after sizing. My 92-5-2-1/BHN-25 alloy bullets are often cast at 0.462", painted up to 0.463", then pushed through a 0.460" Lee sizer and end up at 0.461". I have Lee sizers in .458", .459", and .460", custom ordered pre-covid mess. The softer lead alloy bullets will size to nominal die diameter and stay like that. If you had to have one sizer, it should be 0.459" and it will allow you o produce 0.460" hardcast and .459" softer bullets. I think you can find .459" Lee sizers off the shelf. CH4D is another source for bullet sizing dies and might have whatever you need off the shelf or will make it as custom order. I got a 0.511" sizer from CH4D (off the shelf) and expect it to produce 0.512" hardcast and .511" "softcast."
You have to size jacketed and monometal copper bullets to 0.002" smaller than final. They spring back that much.
The Lyman mould handles have apparently changed from the old style where there were these three that I have one each of:
Small No. 2735791 Large No. 2735793 Four Cavity No. 2735794
Now there is one set for single-cavity and two-cavity moulds and a "Four-cavity" handle set for others? Surely the new handles will work with the old moulds that surely should have same spreads as new moulds ? Good luck finding what you need these days of "out of stock." Hoarding of mould handles too ? Makes as much sense as toilet paper hoarding, I reckon. I would grab any from local emporiums or wherever you can find them new or used and try them. I used to watch for them at gunshows too, pre-covid. I browsed at "Biff's Gunworld" and "Knob Creek" here in Guntucky, rummaged about and found some of the old handles. Other type handles I ordered on internet, Hoch, Saeco, Lee, etc. Sure makes you appreciate the Lee moulds that come with handles attached in the box.
I have been allowed to lurk at Fakebook on the .458 WM, etc. page. Yes, everything from the sublime to the ridiculous there:
Sublime: "Thunder Valley Precision .458 Win Mag with an integrated suppressor. It will shoot 1000 yards easy. Will be testing soon ... are for sale ..." Makes me wonder what bullet and velocity and how much of that 3- or 4-foot barrel is suppressor ?
Remember that hard lead-alloy bullets will spring back after sizing. My 92-5-2-1/BHN-25 alloy bullets are often cast at 0.462", painted up to 0.463", then pushed through a 0.460" Lee sizer and end up at 0.461". I have Lee sizers in .458", .459", and .460", custom ordered pre-covid mess. The softer lead alloy bullets will size to nominal die diameter and stay like that. If you had to have one sizer, it should be 0.459" and it will allow you o produce 0.460" hardcast and .459" softer bullets. I think you can find .459" Lee sizers off the shelf. CH4D is another source for bullet sizing dies and might have whatever you need off the shelf or will make it as custom order. I got a 0.511" sizer from CH4D (off the shelf) and expect it to produce 0.512" hardcast and .511" "softcast."
You have to size jacketed and monometal copper bullets to 0.002" smaller than final. They spring back that much.
The Lyman mould handles have apparently changed from the old style where there were these three that I have one each of:
Small No. 2735791 Large No. 2735793 Four Cavity No. 2735794
Now there is one set for single-cavity and two-cavity moulds and a "Four-cavity" handle set for others? Surely the new handles will work with the old moulds that surely should have same spreads as new moulds ? Good luck finding what you need these days of "out of stock." Hoarding of mould handles too ? Makes as much sense as toilet paper hoarding, I reckon. I would grab any from local emporiums or wherever you can find them new or used and try them. I used to watch for them at gunshows too, pre-covid. I browsed at "Biff's Gunworld" and "Knob Creek" here in Guntucky, rummaged about and found some of the old handles. Other type handles I ordered on internet, Hoch, Saeco, Lee, etc. Sure makes you appreciate the Lee moulds that come with handles attached in the box.
Thank you, Ron, for your generosity with your knowledge - greatly appreciated! Strange times we live in - though I'd guess the "mould handle shortage" is probably just a knock-on effect of all the demand for other things produced by the same manufacturers. I'm sure I'll find some soon, as well as the sizers. In the meantime... I've got other 458 Win Mag reloading trials to do! :-)
From that Fakebook page, a lovely Browning Safari .458 Winchester Magnum like Ron "Mahohboh" Thomson used on most of his over 5000 elephant kills for conservation:
Yes, thanks to Russ, my image collection of .458 Winchester Magnum stuff is growing. I still have thousands of my old ones from ardotcom to edit, and putting them up here makes me pay closer attention to them. Ho ho. Hey, I heard Saeed was born in San Diego, CA, so he is an anchor baby ! Ha ha.
The too-long-for-any-sporting-rifle 500-gr TSX can be converted to 480-grain T6 Buffalo Buster (see previous page of this thread) and it can also be converted to a 400-gr T6BB:
Compare to 500-gr TSX:
Joining the 480-gr T6BB, the other improved TSX is the 400-gr T6BB:
For the .458 WM+: Easily +2500 fps at 3.565" COL. Capable of +2600 fps at 3.675" COL.
Trim the brass to 2.495" and SAAMI .458 WM is capable of 2400 fps at 3.340" COL with the excellent new ball powders.
Great. An old beat up hickory carpenter's hammer handle makes a great tool for lightly knocking open the sprue plate. Or cut off the handle of a Louisville Slugger bat. Some elbow-length rough leather gloves (backyard BBQ pit kit) and long sleeves are a good idea when pouring lead, as is wearing safety glasses or polycarbonate lens prescription spectacles with no coatings, i.e., farmer's specs that can be cleaned on your shirt tail.
Still waiting for the Accurate Molds brass two-fer with 485-grainers.
The .458 WM+ with 23" to 25" barrel has these jacketed and monometal loads I'll vouch for:
600-gr Barnes Original RNSN at 2050 fps 500-gr TBSS FN at +2300 fps 480-gr T6BB and Woodleigh HYDRO Tropical loads at 2250 to 2300 fps 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps 400-gr T6BB and Woodleigh PPSN at 2500 to 2600 fps 350-gr TSX at 2750 to 2800 fps 300-gr TSX at 2800 to 2900 fps
Some verified accurate cast loads in the .458 WM at 3.340" COL and the .458 WM+ at up to 3.600":
579-gr FNGC BHN-25 at 1400 fps with Blackhorn 209 with foam filler wad, 3.340" COL 543-gr FNGC BHN-25 at 2200 fps with AA-2460 no filler, 3.600" COL 543-gr FNGC BHN-25 at 2025 fps with AA-2230 no filler, 3.340" COL 538-gr "Gibbs Money Nose" Plain Base BHN-25 at 1940 fps with AA-2230 no filler, 3.600" COL 525-gr FNGC BHN-25 at 1940 fps with AA-2230 no filler, 3.385" COL 517-gr RN "Lyman Government" Plain Base BHN-25 at 1905 fps with AA-2230 no filler, 3.500" COL 487-gr RN "Lyman Government" Plain Base Linotype at 1400 fps with AA-5744 no filler, 3.500" COL, 600-yard gong ringer 487-gr "Pointed RN Lee" Plain Base BHN-25 at 1945 fps with AA-2230 no filler, 3.500" COL 475-gr "Semi-pointed RN Lyman" GC BHN-25 at 1960 fps with AA-2230 no filler, COL 3.450" 407-gr Small-Meplat FNGC BHN-25 at 2170 fps with AA-2495 and no filler, 3.260" COL
All six different AA-2230 loads with cast bullets above used 65.0 grains of powder and no filler. I was pleasantly surprised that they all shot very accurately with various bullet weights and various COLs with the various BOLs. I considered this to be a good starting load with all of those cast bullets from 475-gr to 543-gr weights. This very well demonstrates that the .458 WM is gifted in the accuracy department with hardcast bullets sized to 0.461". All six of those AA-2230 loads were test-fired in a 23"-long, .458"-grooved, skinny No. 4 sporter contour, McGowen barrel.
All ten of the above cast bullets are hard alloy and PC-painted, sized to .461" by being passed through a 0.460" Lee sizer die. This includes Blackhorn 209 with filler, and no-filler loads with AA-2230, AA-2460, AA-2495, and AA-5744.
The FN Plain Base Lyman "PH" of Saint Bagwell, cast in WW/Lead, is 0.457" as cast, and weighs 479.2 grains from my mould. It is dedicated to grease-groove lube and BP in .45-70 rifles, and 1000-yard muzzleloader work at 1300 fps MV. Amen. I expect it will be similarly good in 20:1 alloy. I have 45 pounds of certified 20:1 alloy on the way. I want to try the PH in 20:1 and hope for about 480-gr weight and PC-paint it and size it to .458". Then try it with a smokeless "pistol powder" to see if it will shoot well in a .458"-grooved or even a .459"-grooved .458 WM, at about 1300 fps and 3.340" COL. Surely a fast smokeless powder will bump it up. The advantage is not having to swab the BP fouling. Hopefully the PC paint will prevent lead fouling.
A 480-gr PH at 1300 fps should Bagwell. So should a 450-gr TSX at 2450 fps.
NECG finally got the M98 3-pos wing safety from across the pond and fulfilled their backorders. My "Big Ugly" project has the needed parts now, and has been renamed "Old Fugly" in honor of Phil Shoemaker's "Old Ugly" the .458 WinMag.
Old Fugly should be great with the 250-grainers and birdshot capsule loads. Her saving grace is that she has the original SAAMI .458 WinMag throat, barrel was not set back when re-chambered to .458 Lott. She is a .458 Lott "Like Jack Built," and not the SAAMI .458 Lott with short and tight throat.
Busy, busy, busy, Sir Ron, "The Crusade" never sleeps.
I can’t wait to get home and burn some rounds thru my 458... been watching this for a month and have too many danged ideas.
LOL, jump on it with both boots Main, i have some load data if you want to step on the 500's, iirc 2360 fps with 500gr Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solids after Sir Ron converted mine back to muzzle velocity, who would have thought possible from the 458 Win Mag+?
Didn't read the thread but the 458 is a grand cartridge and very versatile with hand loading. I have only shot jack rabbits through deer and hogs with one but there is no mistake when you hit something with a 458. I shot a lot of half jacket 350 gr. 458 bullets and some cast. The lighter jacketed bullets are pretty much all around as long as you stay away from the pistol or 45-70 bullets unless loaded down. The 458 got a bad rap when it didn't initially meet advertised velocities and then an even worse reputation when bullets would creep from the heavily compressed loads. Rumors spread rapidly when this occurred during elephant culling operations. In one situation the culler was atop an ele when it came to and the rifle jammed. This is cause for some quick thinking or a pair of pampers. The guy came out all right and from then on put a finisher shot on even moribund elephant.
Busy, busy, busy, Sir Ron, "The Crusade" never sleeps.
I can’t wait to get home and burn some rounds thru my 458... been watching this for a month and have too many danged ideas.
LOL, jump on it with both boots Main, i have some load data if you want to step on the 500's, iirc 2360 fps with 500gr Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solids after Sir Ron converted mine back to muzzle velocity, who would have thought possible from the 458 Win Mag+?
Ha! That sounds like a hellacious load!
I have a couple boxes of the 250 grain Hornady Monoflexs that’re sorta like a Barnes. I was contemplating shooting them out mine as quick as I could. Might be fun for “stopping” them deer around here! Ha!
but the 458 is a grand cartridge and very versatile with hand loading. I have only shot jack rabbits through deer and hogs with one but there is no mistake when you hit something with a 458. I shot a lot of half jacket 350 gr. 458 bullets and some cast. The lighter jacketed bullets are pretty much all around as long as you stay away from the pistol or 45-70 bullets unless loaded down.
The 458 got a bad rap when it didn't initially meet advertised velocities
That needs some clarification. The H.P. White lab data circa 1955 was published by General Hatcher in the NRA magazine and showed it met and exceeded the claims for the factory ammo with the loads they tested with the old powders. (note to self: Remember to dig up the H.P. White data.)
and then an even worse reputation when bullets would creep from the heavily compressed loads.
There are all sorts of horror stories about bullets glued into the necks, bullets sitting loose and spinning with finger twist atop congealed clots of ball powder, etc., etc. In all my searching of the literature I have yet to find a firsthand account, about any defective Winchester factory ammo for the .458 WinMag. It is all second, third, or more-hand recollections. But, I am pretty sure the bad ammo occurred, from factory loads, under the quality assurance of some jackasses in management of the 1960's most likely. Probably started about the time the Democratic Party in cahoots with the mob cheated JFK into office. Another case of massive fraud in selected battleground precincts, yet still qualifying as overall no systemic fraud in the election ?
Again we have a wonderful parallel for the defrauding of the .458 Winchester Magnum from supremacy. The few bad-apple factory loadings do not spoil the whole bushel. But a lie speeds round the world before the truth can get its shoes on ...
Rumors spread rapidly when this occurred during elephant culling operations. In one situation the culler was atop an ele when it came to and the rifle jammed. This is cause for some quick thinking or a pair of pampers. The guy came out all right and from then on put a finisher shot on even moribund elephant.
Always a good idea, soon as possible, even if a dozen are lying on the ground shot only once, pay the insurance on all of them.
Yet Richard Harland and Ron Thomson relied on the .458 Winchester Magnum throughout the 1960's and forward, each culling many thousands of elephant in their conservation work with parks departments. Finn Aagaard said that even if the .458 WM factory loads was doing ony 2000 fps with 500-grainer, it still made a "bloody big hole" through anything. The creation of the SAAMI .458 Lott was a commercial hit job. Much propaganda and gaslighting involved there, just like with the DALDs.
Great ! I have neglected the Hornady 250-gr Monoflex. Might take faster powder than H4198, but that is a great place to start.
At gunner500's comment on correcting 5-yard chrono velocity to MV: It occurs to me that a table or graph might be handy. BC vs MV. Higher BC less loss. Higher MV more loss over that first 5 yards ...
Great ! I have neglected the Hornady 250-gr Monoflex. Might take faster powder than H4198, but that is a great place to start.
At gunner500's comment on correcting 5-yard chrono velocity to MV: It occurs to me that a table or graph might be handy. BC vs MV. Higher BC less loss. Higher MV more loss over that first 5 yards ...
I will keep you all posted with my results. I’m thinking that big 458 should make them scoot pretty decent.
Tested some cowboy loads in a Ruger Vaquero yesterday, at 25 yards. It was time to start twisting on the windage adjustment of the MAGPUL MBUS PRO that had been filed into a notch rear sight.
Rotometals delivered 5 days after the internet order. Free shipping and 4% discount starts with 9 bars. Delivered by USPS to my door when I was home, postman said "It is tiny but it is heavy." Indeed a tiny little cardboard box with 45 pounds in it:
787 bullets of 400 grains. 656 bullets of 480 grains. 525 bullets if they each weighs 600 grains, etc.
Good shooting Sir Ron, holy hell on the NEAR mount too, i need to buy one, nice box of alloy straight 20/1 will about work for anything, gonna make a short Ode to Saint Bagwell video this weekend and send to your e-mail.
LOL, i used 20 to 1 alloy with the little 45-70 and four 30 thou wad stack with nothing but Rooster jacket lube on the paper to duplicate the 461 Gibbs Selous/Seyfried rifle load, that big skinner at 20 to 1 would shoot through anything, what a fun test that was, and "Buy a Donkey" to you Sir Ron for issuing the challenge.
I remember the .45-70 turned into .461 Gibbs No. 2 equivalent. Will post it up again after first getting the General Hatcher load table for the .458 WinMag in 1956. The SAAMI .458 WinMag always could do what was claimed for it by Winchester:
Why is gunner500's 570-grainer at just under 1300 fps such a great penetrator ?
At 1250 fps, penetration of game is about 50" for the test bullet above. Double the velocity to 2500 fps and penetration is improved little, to about 56". Tissue resistance is greater at higher velocity, exponentially so, even for an FN solid. A soft might penetrate even less at higher velocity, because the greater frontal area from expansion of bullet really puts the brakes on, if the bullet does not disintegrate at a shallow depth of penetration, though wound cavity may get interesting if it does ...
LOL, i used 20 to 1 alloy with the little 45-70 and four 30 thou wad stack with nothing but Rooster jacket lube on the paper to duplicate the 461 Gibbs Selous/Seyfried rifle load, that big skinner at 20 to 1 would shoot through anything, what a fun test that was, and "Buy a Donkey" to you Sir Ron for issuing the challenge.
Sir Jerry has been a great inspiration for duplicating his .45-70/.461 Gibbs No. 2 load with a .458 WM, with BP and smokeless ...
I now know the WBY ammo boxes are for a .338/378 WBY for 1125-yard gonging:
Great copper penny front sight, shades of Saint Bagwell.
A faint lube star is seen on the muzzle (even out of focus) and that could only have come from the Rooster Jacket lube on the paper jacket, IIRC, Sir Jerry opined ...
Sir Jerry might comment on the range of the paper target above and the gong and paper target below ...
I also hope he will comment on the diameter of the slick before and after it is patched for the BPCR. And is that a Shiloh Sharps with 0.458" groove diameter and 1:18" twist ?
1 560-570gr bullets drying their patches in the pan, 16 or 20/1 alloy. 2 Patched bullets diped and dried in RJL and ready to shoot, Rooster Jacket lube wont stick to wax paper. 3 Ready to chrono the little Shiloh 45-70, i leaned hard on it with OE 2FG. 4 560 to 570gr bullets at 1269 fps from a 45-70 is a hell of a load. 5 Five loaded at 1269 for range and fouling test. 6 Box with black bull about to be set at 200 yards. 7 Five rounds at 200 yards with ladder barrel sight, only used front rest, no rear bag.. 8 Lube star indeed present, unbelievable how clean it shot, no wiping or blow tubing. 9 That's a 6 shot group on the 700 yard gong, cant remember if i did that with my 45 3-1/4 or 50-90. 10 That is the 15lb 50-90 after firing a 200 yard group with target sights and 720 gr paper patch bullet.
The big Selous/Seyfried bullet comes from a KAL adjustable mould, had machine shop Bud turn the button off the seater stem, dont need a hollow base, that\s wasted space for lead, looking for max weight, also had him remove 30-40 thou of height from the stem, again, longer heavier bullet.
That mould throws a beautiful slick at .440 dia, wet patches up to .448" with 9lb onion skin paper, little Shiloh is an 18 twist standard weight 30 inch barrel, a ten pounder you can carry all week.
Gunner’s donkey has been known to eat targets. He has to follow that animal around until said targets reappear.
Not sure how he reconstitutes them.
Probably lets the donkey reconfigure the ones he doesn’t want shown.
Hmm...
Ha!
DF
LOL DF, ole Stub eats paper like a dang goat, but yes, on targets, i report the good with the bad, provided they're not in the donkey composting program.
Buy a donkey, Sir Jerry. If you have a record of the length of your custom-moulded .440"/ 570-ish gr FN slick cast bullet, please remind me. I will try to remember it this time.
The Brits and Americans traveled similar leapfrogging paths of firearms development. These sights on a .461 Gibbs No. 2 are almost as amazing as the final winning leap to the .458 Winchester Magnum:
There are graduations labeled for both 570-gr and 360-gr bulleted loads at various yardages. 570-gr bullet with 90-gr BP 360-gr bullet with 100-gr BP
The Brits were actually quite slow on the breech-loader cartridge development compared to the Americans, and they have taken credit for some developments that were American. There were drawn brass cases in the U.S for rimfire rifle cases of .44- to .58-caliber starting in 1860. The .50-70 Government centerfire arrived in 1866, while the Brits were still fussing with coiled cases for the likes of the .450 BPE. The Brits finally got into drawn brass cases about 1872. Belted cases were in use in the U.S. before H&H claimed the development about a half century later. Historical notes from a cartridge collector's catalog:
From a 1952 GUN DIGEST article by Paul Foster:
Oliver F. Winchester was quite the pioneer, culminating posthumously in his namesake supreme:
In the 1870's the Sharps business was hot and heavy.
Sharps may have never sold any rifles in .45-cal. 3-1/4" case length, but Winchester surely took advantage of the Sharps name after the Sharps Rifle Co. went belly up ...
but the 458 is a grand cartridge and very versatile with hand loading. I have only shot jack rabbits through deer and hogs with one but there is no mistake when you hit something with a 458. I shot a lot of half jacket 350 gr. 458 bullets and some cast. The lighter jacketed bullets are pretty much all around as long as you stay away from the pistol or 45-70 bullets unless loaded down.
The 458 got a bad rap when it didn't initially meet advertised velocities
That needs some clarification. The H.P. White lab data circa 1955 was published by General Hatcher in the NRA magazine and showed it met and exceeded the claims for the factory ammo with the loads they tested with the old powders. (note to self: Remember to dig up the H.P. White data.)
and then an even worse reputation when bullets would creep from the heavily compressed loads.
There are all sorts of horror stories about bullets glued into the necks, bullets sitting loose and spinning with finger twist atop congealed clots of ball powder, etc., etc. In all my searching of the literature I have yet to find a firsthand account, about any defective Winchester factory ammo for the .458 WinMag. It is all second, third, or more-hand recollections. But, I am pretty sure the bad ammo occurred, from factory loads, under the quality assurance of some jackasses in management of the 1960's most likely. Probably started about the time the Democratic Party in cahoots with the mob cheated JFK into office. Another case of massive fraud in selected battleground precincts, yet still qualifying as overall no systemic fraud in the election ?
Again we have a wonderful parallel for the defrauding of the .458 Winchester Magnum from supremacy. The few bad-apple factory loadings do not spoil the whole bushel. But a lie speeds round the world before the truth can get its shoes on ...
Rumors spread rapidly when this occurred during elephant culling operations. In one situation the culler was atop an ele when it came to and the rifle jammed. This is cause for some quick thinking or a pair of pampers. The guy came out all right and from then on put a finisher shot on even moribund elephant.
Always a good idea, soon as possible, even if a dozen are lying on the ground shot only once, pay the insurance on all of them.
Yet Richard Harland and Ron Thomson relied on the .458 Winchester Magnum throughout the 1960's and forward, each culling many thousands of elephant in their conservation work with parks departments. Finn Aagaard said that even if the .458 WM factory loads was doing ony 2000 fps with 500-grainer, it still made a "bloody big hole" through anything. The creation of the SAAMI .458 Lott was a commercial hit job. Much propaganda and gaslighting involved there, just like with the DALDs.
May I mention again what I've referred to on the "other forum" as one reliable testimony of the effectiveness of factory ammo from a Winchester M70, .458 Win Mag on eles and buff in Kenya in the 1960s and up to the closure of hunting in 1977?
A very close friend, who was a high school principal in the area of New Brunswick, Canada, where I was a young pastor (both in our twenties) went to the Rift Valley Academy in Kenya in 1960 as administrator and teacher (along with wife and two toddlers). He spent his professional life there, returning to Canada every fourth year on furlough with family. He retired around 2000, returning to New Brunswick permanently in the Fredericton area, the Provincial Capital.
They were active in our church prior to going to Kenya, and often we got together as couples raising young families. We also played golf and chess together. If not the most brilliant man I've ever known to this day, he was one among a very few. On occasion, while on furlough he was a professor at The University of New Brunswick at Fredericton.
When they left for Africa the first time, he took two rifles with him: a .300 Win Mag and a .458 Win Mag, both M70s. He shot MANY elephant and Cape buffalo using factory ammo from his .458 and never once had a mishap or failure, nor did he ever complain of its effectiveness. He didn't own a chronograph, nor was he a handloader. He used, to my knowledge, Winchester ammo in both his .300 and .458. Our families would get together every fourth year in which he'd regale us with hunting stories.
Their son is now an MD somewhere in the USA and their daughter still lives in Africa with her husband doing mission work in a sensitive area that I can't mention due to security reasons.
If I were to believe any independant witness about the effectiveness of the GREAT .458 in the 1960s in Africa it would be his.
Buy a donkey, Sir Jerry. If you have a record of the length of your custom-moulded .440"/ 570-ish gr FN slick cast bullet, please remind me. I will try to remember it this time.
On a more serious note:
No records on that one Sir Ron as it's an adjustable KAL mould, max weight of either 560-570gr because i cant remember which alloy i used, it's a nose pour with a 180 thou flat meplat, parallel sided, now flat based with Creedmoor type nose, if gifted old age, i could screw it in to make lightweight low recoil 45-70 govt. 350gr paper patch bullets for shooting deer.
The other mould is a David Mos mould Saint Bagwell gave me to shoot in my original 45-110 buffalo rifle, a 514gr round nose, parallel sided, base pour, that's a direct copy of the 45 cal paper patch bullets the Sharps rifle factory used to load and send out to the Buffalo Hunters, i cast that bullet soft at around 35/1 alloy, with 100gr Goex Express 1F it leaves the old rifle at 1270 fps, also shoots dead to the sights, so everything has to be close to correct for the old gun to be dead on like that, if we remember the 45-70 load [Selous/Seyfried 461 Gibbs] leaves at 1269 fps, plus, that bullet weighs 50-60 grains more than the 45-110 original load, that's what i meant by calling that 45-70 load a hellbender, a real hammer of a load for the stubby 45-70.
BTW, bore and groove on the 18 twist Shiloh 45-70 is .450/.458 in.
It is so big-boringly easy to beat the .458 Lott with a .458 WM+ at less than 3.6" COL, that I feel a bit jaded by it all. Sir Jerry aka gunner500 hit on the 500-grain TB Sledgehammer Solid at +2350 fps from his 24"-barreled .458 WM+ on his first time out with the new rifle. He also has 450-gr TSX loads at +2400 fps and is contemplating trying for +2450 fps, not necessary, but very possible. AA-2460 was the powder.
What we need for continued interest is to replicate the Bagwell and Selous loads with grease-grooved and paper-patched bullets and BP fired from the mighty .458 WM+. I am working on it.
However, I won't get too big-bored along the way. I still need to beat Sir Jerry to 2450 fps with the 450-gr TSX in a 24" barrel with AA-2230 or other powder and less than 3.6" COL. I have had the 450-gr TSX past 2450 fps with 3.675" COL and a 25" barrel, using AA-2230, but that was cheating, taking unfair advantage of the over-governed SAAMI .458 Lott's limitations.
Hardly a dull moment for sure, with so many other loads from 250-grainer to 600-grainer to be tried with smokeless and jacketed, monometal, cast lead, and snake shot capsules ! The SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum has got to be the most versatile and useful cartridge ever.
Don't know about all this velocity envy and other problems too. But Cash-is-King sold me some 700 plus gr 0.458" LFNs I'm going to load for my 458 American pseudo Scout. After playing with those and healing up I may rechamber to 458 Win mag. Play Well with Others and Be Well, RZ.
It is so big-boringly easy to beat the .458 Lott with a .458 WM+ at less than 3.6" COL, that I feel a bit jaded by it all. Sir Jerry aka gunner500 hit on the 500-grain TB Sledgehammer Solid at +2350 fps from his 24"-barreled .458 WM+ on his first time out with the new rifle. He also has 450-gr TSX loads at +2400 fps and is contemplating trying for +2450 fps, not necessary, but very possible. AA-2460 was the powder.
What we need for continued interest is to replicate the Bagwell and Selous loads with grease-grooved and paper-patched bullets and BP fired from the mighty .458 WM+. I am working on it.
However, I won't get too big-bored along the way. I still need to beat Sir Jerry to 2450 fps with the 450-gr TSX in a 24" barrel with AA-2230 or other powder and less than 3.6" COL. I have had the 450-gr TSX past 2450 fps with 3.675" COL and a 25" barrel, using AA-2230, but that was cheating, taking unfair advantage of the over-governed SAAMI .458 Lott's limitations.
Hardly a dull moment for sure, with so many other loads from 250-grainer to 600-grainer to be tried with smokeless and jacketed, monometal, cast lead, and snake shot capsules ! The SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum has got to be the most versatile and useful cartridge ever.
Great ideas Sir Ron! i need to find some AA-2230 for the 450gr TSX's, i also happen to have a wonderful Paul Jones mould, it throws a 570gr AA Smerker grease groove bullet of 570 grains with 20/1 alloy, it the most accurate bullet i've ever fired from my 18 twist Shiloh 45-70, i should cast you some up, lubra-size em to 458" with Bills Black Majik lube and send em on up.
...Cash-is-King sold me some 700 plus gr 0.458" LFNs I'm going to load for my 458 American pseudo Scout. After playing with those and healing up I may rechamber to 458 Win mag. Play Well with Others and Be Well, RZ.
Interesting project, a 2-inch-cased .458 American with a "730-gr" WFNGC "Ranger Rick's" from Matt's Bullets ? Your type of throating will determine how long you can seat it. You could certainly run a SAAMI .458 WM reamer into it to correct any throating deficiency, but then why not go all the way to .458 WM 2.5" as you say ?
The internet shows some data for similar bullets in the .458 WM+. Ammoguide.com:
720-grain Ranger Rick WFNGC
IMR-4895 50.0 gr COL 3.592" 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1 MV quoted = 1467 fps
Here is a .45-70 Govt. load in a BFR with 10" barrel:
730-gr NEI FNGC (458-645) H-4198 35.0 gr COL 3.020" MV quoted = 1365 fps Guesstimated pressure of up to 35,000 psi.
If a 730-gr cast lead bullet is 1.737" long, the 1:14" twist should stabilize at 1080 fps or faster MV, and a 1:18" twist would require 1800 fps for barely stable.
One good'ol boy on the internet used a 730-gr Ranger Rick in a .458 WM seated to the primary (foremost) crimp groove so COL would be </= 3.340" in a 1964-vintage pushfeed M70 with 22" barrel: H4895 52.0 gr >>> 1349 fps 54.0 gr >>> 1618 fps 56.0 gr >>> 1714 fps (case head expansion greater than with factory loads) 58.0 gr >>> Brass extrusion marks on case head, even greater case head expansion, and scary chrono data: 2064 fps, ERROR, and 1680 fps (for the three readings) 60.0 gr >>> BLOWN PRIMER and one reading of 1717 fps
Bubba concluded that he might be OK with 52.0 to 55.0 grains of H4895, but your mileage may vary.
Dang, the weeds are sprouting here in Kentucky too !
Originally Posted by gunner500
... also happen to have a wonderful Paul Jones mould, it throws a 570gr AA Smerker grease groove bullet of 570 grains with 20/1 alloy, it the most accurate bullet i've ever fired from my 18 twist Shiloh 45-70, i should cast you some up, lubra-size em to 458" with Bills Black Majik lube and send em on up.
Buy a donkey for the offer, Sir Jerry, but I have the grooved bullets covered with 543-gr (Red Death) and 579-gr (Big Blue) FNGC hardcast, PC-painted, and sized to 0.461".
What would be interesting is to see you do some of your 570-gr paper-patched with BP in a .458 WM+.
I have a 530-gr slick to try with 20/1 alloy with paper patch, 5 grains of IMR-SR4759 and 85 grains of GOEX FFg, F215 or WLRM primer, one thin cardboard wad, and Rooster Lube on the patch. About like .45-100-530 Sharps 2.6" or a .461 Gibbs No. 1 or 2 Military Match load. Selous did most of his Selousing with a 540-gr PP bullet and 75 to 90 gr of Curtis & Harvey. Probably be able to shoot mine for 50 shots without wiping, eh ?
I did a test casting from my mould with gunshow-purchased "wheel weight" ingots. The mould is the Accurate Molds 44-530P, supposed to be 530-gr in wheel weights. I got a diameter 0.443" and a weight of 530.9 grains. BOL 1.373". It will be interesting to see what they weigh in 20/1 alloy, probably really close to the WW in BHN, diameter, and weight. Paper patching: 0.443" + 0.008" = 0.451" diameter in soft alloy. Fingers crossed, that might work with a .458 WM with bore diameter of 0.450", but with the long throat, seated far out and plenty of room for the BP, recalling that a BP load in the .45-70 Govt. is compressed close to a half-inch in a Saint Bagwell load with a 480-gr PH. IIRC, the old .461 Gibbs No. 1 & No. 2 loads were not much if any compressed because the old thin brass necks buckled so easily. The Gibbs shot very well without heavy compression.
"A good Bowie knife will get the job done when big cuts are in order -- and it will make the little cuts too. I know, because I skinned a mouse with mine once just to see if I could. The knife worked just fine." The wisdom and skill of Bill Bagwell
As you were. I get it now. Screw the smokeless and PC-paint with 20/1 alloy, grease-grooved bullets. I need to try them with BP in the .458 WM+, sized to .458" and grease-lubed. I ain't too proud to accept charity if you want to send some 570-gr AA Smerkers my way. Buy a donkey if you do. Should be the equivalent of a .45-100-570 Sharps 2.6". Ought to be a lot like a .461 Gibbs No. 2 load with 570-grainer with which to Bagwell.
Dang, feed store called, cabbage and cauliflower plants came in, plus i had to whip out a bit of brush-hogging before the next rain, what is it with this work crap getting in the way of powder burning?!
You're set Buddy, and hell yes on the 570 Smerkers, 458 Win Mag+ or Goldie in 45-100 sharps, a match made in heaven for dealing hell to the intendeds ; ]
A cold 10 pack of 555gr slicks are there too, i sent those along with the Smerkers and a handful of playing card wads, at only 10 thou and never get lube saturated they're king when loading stub cases when powder capacity can be an issue, every saved thou counts, in case you ever want to borrow either or both moulds just ask,, they're accurate, true flying, hard hitting bullets Sir, two of the best i have across the caliber spectrum.
It will be easier than eating birthday cake to duplicate or handily exceed the 461 Gibbs, but, as we know, and have seen/learned from Saint Bagwell, no more is needed, if a man were to want to brain an ele simple water quenched wheel weights will get that done.
The big Smerkers have a .446 nose, plenty of extra room to chamber after a bit of bore fouling, hope both fly as true for you as they do me, and i'm talking, 45 1/10th, 45 2-7/8''s and 45 3-1/4 Sharps, three different rifles, no ladder loading, no node look, just max Lord Black load and fire, really nice when that happens.
Rekindled interest in the .458 WM leads to retracing the evolution of the cartridge, by history and by shooting loads to replicate the full spectrum of that evolution. The birth of the ultimately versatile .45-bore conical bullet started with Joseph Whitworth's muzzleloaders. Starting about 1854, and governmentally employed and restricted to 70 grains of BP and 500-ish-grains of lead bullet weight as design parameters, Sir Whitworth came up with .45-caliber bullets as most efficient. Shades of the .45-70 Government to come later ! Great engineering. At the time the hexagonal bores and bullet cross-sections seemed a great technological advance, but soon were superceded. Fast forward to the further improvements in muzzleloaders of circa 1865 for round bores and bullets, again, still .451" bore diameters.
To better tell the story of the beginnings of the .458 Winchester Magnum supremacy, herewith 3 books will be reviewed with excerpts;
Jonathan Kirton:
George A. Hoyem:
W. W. Greener:
1865 to 1866: Here is the 2000-yard muzzle-loader of William Metford, built by the elder George Gibbs, with a 10X scope and gain-twist-rifled .451" bore (52-gauge if smooth bore of that diameter), excerpt from Kirton:
By 1869 Metford had changed his muzzleloading rifle to .461" bore, and just a year later he began working with breechloaders and drawn brass cases in partnership with Gibbs. On that side of the pond most were still using coiled cases for the early breechloaders.
Both .461 Gibbs No.1 and .461 Gibbs No. 2 cartridges may have arrived in drawn brass cartridge cases by 1872, while the .577/450 Martini-Henry of 1871 was still a coiled case mess. On the other side of the pond, there was drawn brass splendor throughout the 1860's. The .50-70 Govt. of 1866 morphed happily into the .45-70 Govt. of 1873.
Enter the breechloader, by the telling of W. W. Greener that follows. Magic Metford rifling morphed from 3-groove to 5-groove (shown below), and finally 7-groove in the final days of the BPCR being unbeatable by early smokeless rifles, at long range target shooting:
Clarification/correction: John Rigby may have started working on his pet project (.450 NE ) in 1889, but he was not forced to retire from his "day job" overseeing the Enfield arsenal until 1894 when he turned 65, mandatory retirement age for government employees. By then he had shepherded the .303 British rifle cartridge into the smokeless age. The young whippersnapper George C. Gibbs was about 31 years younger than John Rigby.
Jonathan Kirton is the master collector and shooter of original .461 Gibbs rifles. He does make reference to George A. Hoyem's work:
Here Hoyem goes a bit astray in not noting that 0.453" was the diameter of the .461 Gibbs slick before it was paper-patched up to bore diameter of 0.461", making groove diameter 0.470" if rifling is 0.0045" deep.
Hoyem makes reference (first excerpt above) to the work of F. C. Selous:
W. W. Greener tells the tale of young George C. Gibbs who cleaned up in competitions with his .461 Gibbs No. 1 and No. 2 using paper-patched bullets, until his 1894 introduction of electroplating of copper onto lead bullets for the .461 Gibbs No. 1 BPCR. That was copied by most other shooters in 1895, though the pesky smokeless rifles were showing up then too:
Back to Kirton and I will quit for the night: Note one cheeky fellow below with a Sharps rifle !
As great as George C. Gibbs was, I will yet give the nod to John Rigby as the greatest rifleman ever for the sum total of his rifle accomplishments in all spheres.
What a rich, fascinating and cool hobby we have that ALL knowledge will never be gained, a 100% guarantee against boredom! ; ]
Sir Ron, i guess you're aware that unless specified by customer for a 5 or 7 degree all modern Sharps rifles have 45 degree chamber leade? any guesses from whence that came? you got it, the grand 458 Winchester Magnum, sadly, the main reason is iirc near 85 percent of new manufactured Sharps rifles will fire smokeless and jacked bullets, it's a liability/safety factor for the manufacturers.
And we may have touched on it before, but my 44-77 Sharps looks an awful lot like the 461 Gibbs NO 1.
Amen. And those cartridges were contemporaries of each other for the shootin'matches of early 1870's. When John Rigby finally gave up on muzzleloaders he adopted the .45-2.4" Sharps and .45-2.6" Sharps cartridges as his "Match" cartridges.
Speaking of John Rigby and the Irish muzzleloader clingers at Creedmoor in 1873, John Rigby was the star, his scores were tops, and the Americans would have lost with their Sharps and Rolling Blocks if one Mr. Millner had not fired one of his shots at the wrong target at 1000 yards. Just retold as an excuse to mention the muzzleloader of John Rigby:
36" octagon barrel 0.451" bore diameter 0.480" groove diameter (!) 1:18" twist, constant, no gain twist 8 grooves, grooves and lands of equal width, "one-half the original surface untouched in rifling"
Projectile: Hardened lead, 530-grains weight, paper-patched, BOL 1.42" "The hollow in rear of the bullet is filled with plaster of Paris, which remains in its place during the flight of the bullet, and prevents the paper, lubrication, etc. from being lodged in the cavity. This forms the Mr. Rigby's patent."
Charge: "86 grains Curtis and Harvey's No. 6, at all distances.
Lubrication: "An octagonal tallow wad, lightly tempered with wax."
IIRC, rifle weight limit at Creedmoor 1873 was 10 pounds, whether muzzleloader or BPCR.
Above Rigby Creedmoor muzzleloader details from this book:
Book is too big to fit on scanner, that is a partial cover jacket shot. It is an excellent book. The rest of the book review consists of excerpts with my comments painted upon them.
And we can celebrate the past by making it shoot like a .451-bore Rigby Match muzzleloader or .461 Gibbs No. 1 or No. 2 BPCR, or .45-70 to .45-110 Saint Bagwell Sharps.
A sample from 3/20/2021 entry, a very tough test medium was used here:
Projectile performance is critical during all aspects of ballistics, whatever the firearm used. All else goes for naught if terminal effects go squat. A selection of Bob's .458-caliber projectiles:
We could certainly add some more to that impressive lineup, such as 600-grain jacketed and cast at +2000 fps down to 250-grain monometal at +3000 fps, Even snake shot capsules borrowed from the .45 Long Colt or 730-gr Ranger Ricks at 1080 fps subsonic to +1500 fps just for kicks. The .458 Wincester Magnum is truly the most versatile sporting rifle ever conceived, with the broadest range of projectiles possible. I have not yet settled on the ultimate VLD design for sheets of plywood at 2000 yards. Any help there would be appreciated. We know they used to shoot at 2000 yards with .451"-bore muzzleloaders. 3-foot circles at 1000 yards were a piece of cake. See John Rigby muzzleloader load with 530-gr paper-patched bullet and 86 grains of BP. As you were, at Bob's blog:
Bob in Africa with Brenneke slugs in a 12-ga shotgun as backup for lion or buffalo while learning bushcraft from his son's tracker. Elephant might present a worry ?:
Bob on safari in Canada, armed with .458 Winchester Magnum CZ 550 Magnum and proper bullet, no worries at all, even if an elephant surprised him:
John Rigby's invention of the .450 x 3-1/4" Nitro Express occurred during the period from 1889 to final success in November 1897. That was a quantum leap beyond the .450 x 3-1/4" Black Powder Express rifle that it was based upon.
His Majesty's government made John Rigby the Superintendent of the Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock in 1887 at about age 56. He shepherded the .303 Lee-Enfield out of the BPCR Martini-Henry role into the smokeless bolt-action repeater. His baby became the primary battle rifle and cartridge for the UK through 2 World Wars, its service lasting until 1957. John Rigby died at age 87 on 1 November 1916, during WWI, early Downton Abbey period. Sorry, I could not resist whistling past the graveyard. R.I.P. John Rigby, 1829-1916 A.D.
Before John Rigby, the .450 x 3-1/4" BPE was the favored deer rifle. He beefed up the brass and bullets, used Cordite instead of BP, and a new and stronger crucible steel for the barrels. Voila ! The favored dangerous game rifle had arrived. All others would be compared to it thereafter. There is still nothing better. A bigger bore is useful only as a placebo treatment of the neurotic condition of bore envy.
Here is the deer rifle that became an elephant rifle, in book review format using the work of Graeme Wright, his pressure tested data for the BPE:
That is an excellent book. The general chapters cover many aspects of the care and feeding of double rifles and single shots firing same ammo.
Very interesting how 20 grains of SR4759 plus 60 grains of BP is equivalent to 120 grains of BP with similar pressures for both loads. Very low pressure with .458-caliber cast bullets of 320 to 358 grains and a 350-gr jacketed soft nose. Only 6.7 to 8.1 tpsi, whereas the historical pressures for similar bullets, BP charges, barrel lengths, and velocities were 11.0 to 12.0 tpsi. The imperial tonne or "long ton" is 2240 lbs. 12.0 tpsi = 26,880 psi. The duplexed 358-gr cast bullet at 1700 fps has a pressure of 7.2 tpsi = 16,128 psi.
1 grain of the smokeless "pistol powder" substitutes for 3 grains of BP. Cork wads 3/8" thick sit between bullet and powder. Must be no or very little compression of powder. By total weight of propellants, the duplexed BP load is 25% smokeless. Seems like a high percentage of smokeless by weight might be helpful with light bullets ? Kirton recommended a load of 5 grains SR4759 plus 85 grains of GOEX FFg in the .461 Gibbs with 540-gr bullet. That is a bit over 5% smokeless by weight, worked well with the heavier bullet, for about 100-gr equivalency to BP.
The old Curtis & Harvey No. 6 BP must have given higher pressures (and velocities ? ) than GOEX. GOEX is apparently easily and safely spiffed up with SR4759, eliminates most of the BP fouling, and gives lower pressure than the old BP loads !
Good .458 WM lowball loads from fortunecookie45LC, this time for comparison to a Bubba's highball load, as previously mentioned, now some further observations. All are </= 3.340" COL:
The factory rifle used for the above probably has a 0.459" groove diameter and standard 1:14" twist. Regardless of any accuracy node due to barrel vibration, regardless of alloy hardness or type of lube or coating, a .459" diameter and 500-grain bullet would be expected to do better than a .458" diameter 340-grainer.
IMHO, any .459"-diameter 400-ish grainer makes a nice plinker in a SAAMI .458 WM as long as velocity stays below 1400 fps. That can be done with 26.0 to 30.0 grains of AA-5744 and the store-bought Berry's of Utah 405-gr/.459", blue-lubed, hardcast, plain-based, FN. Actual weight of that bullet average 409 grains in the batch I bought. I reckon they are the commercial "hardball" alloy.
409-gr/.459" at 3.080" COL, 24" barrel: 26.0 gr AA-5744 (no filler) >>> 1182 fps, 5-shot Sd = 10 fps, 1.2-MOA 3-shot 30.0 gr AA-5744 (no filler) >>> 1376 fps, 5-shot Sd = 3 fps, 1.4-MOA 3-shot At 1578 fps the same bullet was keyholing.
For high velocity cast bullet loads in the .458 WM: Hardcast, gas check, PC paint, and 0.461" sized. Those can be sub-1.0-MOA accurate at 2200 fps from 400-ish-grainer to 540-ish-grainer. Use COL in the 3.0" to 3.6" range, tuned to bullet length and shape.
Brainfart. Creedmoor 1874, not 1873, was the big one. The American NRA's first "Annual Matches" were held at Creedmoor on Long Island, NY in 1873. The Irish team was there in 1874 for the first international match. That is why we call that iconic rifle a Sharps 1874 even though it was introduced in 1871. I need some more history lessons.
Elsewhere on this forum, there is a mention of a couple articles by Phil Shoemaker on Old Ugly: Alaska Guide Builds a Modern BACKUP RIFLE Ron may appreciate this quote from the Fall 2011 Rifle Loony News article: "The fame of the 458 Lott grew as other writers, some with admittedly no experience with the .458 Win, began parroting each other until the .458 Win was regarded as little more than +P 45-70."
Sir Jerry has been doing great charity work for the Crusade for Truth About the .458 Winchester Magnum, contributing these to the cause:
I reckon those will need some smacking with BP run through a .458"-grooved .458 Winchester Magnum just to show how incredibly versatile the .458 WM is. First with a scope, then maybe get the comb of the stock near heel inletted for a longrange vernier sight for back position shooting.
From the Rigby book by Calabi et al:
Midrange trajectory was about 70 feet and the bullet took about 3 seconds to get to 1000 yards.
Three Sharps 1874's and three Remington 1871 Rolling Blocks beat six muzzleloaders from the UK. American Henry Fulton with a Remington RB had the highest score of all, beating John Rigby's highest score for the Irish. Sharps claim to fame was greater safety than the RB in the days of sensitive primers exploding before the action was locked, on rolling the block. Sharps and Remingtons were of equal accuracy.
From Frank Sellers:
The Irish loss to the Americans at Creedmoor was actually their highpoint against the Americans in internationl tournaments. After that the Americans widened their margins of victory for the USA. The learning curve was steep, teamwork helped greatly on doping the wind. Thank Irishman Millner for making a bullseye on the wrong 900-yard target and losing 4 points. And thank the American Col. John Bodine for making a bullseye and scoring four points on the last shot of the day, at 1000 yards. He did it with a bloody hand wrapped in a handkerchief, just minutes after an accident with a newfangled glass gingerale bottle. They called him "Old Reliable" ever after that, even though he was shooting a Remington ! Maybe Mr. Millner had an accident with a bottle of green beer before letting fly at the wrong target ? Hey, I am mostly Irish. I like beer too, and Scotch Whisky, and Bourbon Whiskey.
Sir Ron, great info, i would have thought it impossible to over pressure anything 458 Win Mag+ with H-4895, we see 700+ grains of bullet will get it done, have to wonder if that scud missile would remain stable in animal tissue and penetrate straight, if it does, 1550 fps would be mucho plenty.
You're most welcome for the bullets and playing card wads, i'm no 'wad stack' guru/experimenter, to me a wad need to protect the base of the bullet and keep lubes from contaminating the powder charge, these coated playing card wads to that with aplomb, plus, at only 10 thou each, they don't waste a chit-ton of powder capacity in starved cases such as the 45 and 50-70 govt.
Slightly off topic, but just yesterday i was able to easily compress 70gr drop-tubed OE 3F with a playing card wad .650 thou in a new full length sized Starline 50-70 case, the 530gr grease groove bullet measures 1.128 long, closed the case mouth to .520 thou with a taper crimp die, if i'm able to get an accurate 1200 fps, the stubby 50 will be the little hammer that can, the 30 twist barrel will easily stabilize a 1.128 bullet.
Sorry for the ramble, just having fun.
Plus, You may be the man with 1000 bullet moulds, that said, if either bullet i sent you shoots extremely well, say the word and i'll ship the moulds to you for casting as many as you please.
Sir Ron, great info, i would have thought it impossible to over pressure anything 458 Win Mag+ with H-4895, we see 700+ grains of bullet will get it done, have to wonder if that scud missile would remain stable in animal tissue and penetrate straight, if it does, 1550 fps would be mucho plenty.
Ditto on the Ranger Rick. I doubt I will be trying them unless I get really big bored.
You're most welcome for the bullets and playing card wads, i'm no 'wad stack' guru/experimenter, to me a wad need to protect the base of the bullet and keep lubes from contaminating the powder charge, these coated playing card wads to that with aplomb, plus, at only 10 thou each, they don't waste a chit-ton of powder capacity in starved cases such as the 45 and 50-70 govt.
I have 48 pieces of once-fired Norma .458 WM brass that will hold plenty of BP. I am just wondering if I should use a grease cooky with either of those bullets, or is just one of those poker card wads enough ? I have a wad punch and I have a deck of cards. Never thought of that excellent way to make wads. Buy a donkey for that trick.
Slightly off topic, but just yesterday i was able to easily compress 70gr drop-tubed OE 3F with a playing card wad .650 thou in a new full length sized Starline 50-70 case, the 530gr grease groove bullet measures 1.128 long, closed the case mouth to .520 thou with a taper crimp die, if i'm able to get an accurate 1200 fps, the stubby 50 will be the little hammer that can, the 30 twist barrel will easily stabilize a 1.128 bullet.
Let us know how it shakes out. I am a fan of the .50-70 Govt., BP in the antiques and replicas, and smokeless in one custom Rolling Block with .510" groove and 1-24" twist. I use H322 to get a 650-grain Hoch up to just over 1300 fps with that one, barely fast enough to stabilize in my twist.
Sorry for the ramble, just having fun.
Plus, You may be the man with 1000 bullet moulds, that said, if either bullet i sent you shoots extremely well, say the word and i'll ship the moulds to you for casting as many as you please.
Way exaggerated mould count, but I wish. Still waiting for the Accurate Molds .460"/ 485-grainer mould. I ain't too proud to beg.
Black is all about the balance of lube and wipe I think the experts say. I know you have to keep the fouling soft to create the environment for anything to work for more than one shot. I find this still true with Lubed and smokeless. Black just accentuates it as it creates more fouling. SharpsGuy can illuminate the issue we know.
Sir Dennis, Sorry to say that sharpsguy, Bill Bagwell, has passed on to the Happy Hunting Ground. If we make it there, find him by the ringing of the gongs and rising clouds of BP smoke signals. Don't be a stranger here. "Beware the man with only one cast bullet mould for his .458 WM+. He probably knows how to use it." 480-ish grain FN ? Saint Bagwell would approve of that bullet weight for .45-bore, but even he used more than one bullet mould. He even had at least one smokeless load that I know of for the 480-gr PH in the .45-70 Govt.
Grease cooky or lube cookie: I am thinking I will use a BeesWax & Olive Oil Biscuit (BWOOB) with both paper-patched and grease-grooved bullets shooting BP, with poker card wad on both sides of the BWOOB. The Rigby muzzleloaders used "tallow tempered with wax" (nonvegetarian) between their powder and paper-patched bullets.
Sir Ron, great info, i would have thought it impossible to over pressure anything 458 Win Mag+ with H-4895, we see 700+ grains of bullet will get it done, have to wonder if that scud missile would remain stable in animal tissue and penetrate straight, if it does, 1550 fps would be mucho plenty.
Ditto on the Ranger Rick. I doubt I will be trying them unless I get really big bored.
You're most welcome for the bullets and playing card wads, i'm no 'wad stack' guru/experimenter, to me a wad need to protect the base of the bullet and keep lubes from contaminating the powder charge, these coated playing card wads to that with aplomb, plus, at only 10 thou each, they don't waste a chit-ton of powder capacity in starved cases such as the 45 and 50-70 govt.
I have 48 pieces of once-fired Norma .458 WM brass that will hold plenty of BP. I am just wondering if I should use a grease cooky with either of those bullets, or is just one of those poker card wads enough ? I have a wad punch and I have a deck of cards. Never thought of that excellent way to make wads. Buy a donkey for that trick.
Slightly off topic, but just yesterday i was able to easily compress 70gr drop-tubed OE 3F with a playing card wad .650 thou in a new full length sized Starline 50-70 case, the 530gr grease groove bullet measures 1.128 long, closed the case mouth to .520 thou with a taper crimp die, if i'm able to get an accurate 1200 fps, the stubby 50 will be the little hammer that can, the 30 twist barrel will easily stabilize a 1.128 bullet.
Let us know how it shakes out. I am a fan of the .50-70 Govt., BP in the antiques and replicas, and smokeless in one custom Rolling Block with .510" groove and 1-24" twist. I use H322 to get a 650-grain Hoch up to just over 1300 fps with that one, barely fast enough to stabilize in my twist.
Sorry for the ramble, just having fun.
Plus, You may be the man with 1000 bullet moulds, that said, if either bullet i sent you shoots extremely well, say the word and i'll ship the moulds to you for casting as many as you please.
Way exaggerated mould count, but I wish. Still waiting for the Accurate Molds .460"/ 485-grainer mould. I ain't too proud to beg.
Nice, with grease groove, i'd only add an over the powder wad, the grease cookie will sit/work just fine with a flat based cast bullet sitting on top, it's how i load my 45 3-1/4 with the 500gr gov bullet, easy 100gr OE 2F, card wad, grease cookie of around 190 thou, seat bullet, taper crimp, and let fly to 1488 fps, have ran em to 1650 fps, not necessary.
Well, I am a humble student of the Crusade for Truth, slowly doing my own experimentation with the King of Cartridges, and unworthy to be compared to the the Knights of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum. But in due time, I aspire to be worthy of the title "Sir Jeffrey, Knight of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum."
Thanks for asking!
I hope to have some updates soon on my experimentation.
Hannay, You can be the first to be officially Knighted with a tap on the shoulders by the flat of Sir Jerry's Bagwell Bowie. What an honor that would be, in the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum !
Sorry to hear that our SharpsGuy has left us. Very glad that we got to correspond with him while we could then. My place in the company of the King of Kings is assured by the blood of His Son so I will be sure to look for Bill squinting at the front sight. A good reminder for us all, you have to know where to look to hold steady. Best regards sir.
Happy news, 70 grains of FFg sitting on top of 10 grains of SR4759 is a formula equivalent to 100 grains of BP. No drop tube used. Layered into a Norma .458 WM case (which has a once-fired gross H2O capacity of about 99 grains) the powder level is about 0.4" from case mouth. Placing one of the poker-card wads over the powder, and simply running the RCBS neck expander/belling plug back into the case for proper belling depth, leaves the over-powder poker-card wad about 0.710" below the case mouth. Plenty of room for a BWOOB of lube with the 570-gr bullet seated to first cannelure/grease groove. All grease inside of case. COL of that cartridge will be about 3.34". Good in any SAAMI .458 WM if it will shoot accurately.
Paper-patched will be left long in the COL. They slip into the case with no neck expanding or belling needed other than a kiss from the plug to round the case mouths. Plenty of room for a lube BWOOB there. I don't guess it could hurt unless it makes the paper patch stick to the base of the bullet, so maybe a second poker-card wad to make a BWOOB sandwich between powder and bullet ? Maybe a double BWOOB if needed to fill the case for no powder shake.
I could put a single thickness paper "wad" (.002") between the SR4759 and the BP, but I guess not necessary with compressed BP for the 570-grain greaser, or 100% filled with BWOOB for the paper-patched 555-grainer, for no powder movement inside the case. F215 primer.
The trick for the paper-patched in the .458 WM is to FL-size the case with a Redding FL die. This reduces the brass to smaller diameter such that the PP bullet cannot enter the case until the Redding neck-expander/belling plug is used to expand the neck for only about a quarter inch of depth from case mouth. Any mild compression of BP is done in seating the bullet. Yes, the Redding dies size to smaller diameters than the RCBS, Lee and Hornady FL dies. I finally found a use for the Redding .458 WM dies.
Both loads are lightly touched with a Lee Factory Crimp die, the paper-patched more lightly than the grease-grooved.
You're set Sir Ron, and yes on the paper patch, taper crimp just enough so bullets can be turned with fingers in case with light pressure, just enough hold to keep them from falling out of the case.
I have noticed your Bagwellian method of indexing the bullet on the 570-grainer. I will try to make use of it when loading the grease-grooved bullets into a bolt action, for accuracy purposes.
As for the 555-gr paper-patched, I will go to single shot in the form of Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger the .45-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated, aka .45-70 Elko Magnum. Will seat the PP bullets less deeply and more loosely, my .45-100 Sharps dies should work better there. Ironically, the .45-2.6" Starline brass for that is going to have a couple less grains of water gross than the Norma .458 WM 2.5" brass, but that is plenty !
I am also going to load the 570-grainer to full-blown 3.6" COL with two grease grooves inside the case, and two grease grooves outside the case. That will work through the magazine box of an M70 .458 WM+. The bands and grooves on your 570-grainer line up perfectly for 3.6" COL, even better than for 3.340" COL. The exposed grease grooves will be dipped in melted BWOO lube to fill the grooves and rest of projecting bullet wiped clean. Then a small piece of CUT-RITE wax paper will be wrapped around the bullet for transport in ammo box.
Sir Dennis has often opined that exposed grease gooves ain't a bad thing with normal care of ammo. It is absolutely not a problem if the bullet is hardcast, powder-coat painted, sized to .461" and gas checked.
All of this is about seeing how duplexed BP works in a .458"-grooved rifle with a .458 Winchester Magnum throat using soft alloy, grease-lubed bullets sized to 0.458". Marcella Winchester-McGowen the .458 WM+ has .458" grooves and 1:14" twist.
It is also about seeing how duplexed BP works with soft alloy paper-patched bullets sized to only 0.448" (over the patch) in a Pedersoli barrel that has 1:18" twist, with a SAAMI .458 WM throat on the end of a .45-2.6" Sharps chamber. That barrel was advertised to be .458"-grooved and .450"-bored, but it might have a little choke near the muzzle, down to .456" or .457" in the grooves. I think that barrel will better give the respect due to the hallowed paper patch.
Also will use a single layer of CUT-RITE wax paper "wad" of 0.0015" thickness according to Saint Bagwell who gave his blessing on their use. That will go between grease cookie and any bullet, saving the poker-card wads for over-powder use only.
So the first two loads shown most recently above will be pulled and reassembled to new specs and used as fouling shots. So be it.
Nice, cant wait to see/hear the shooting reports, imho NO mould is perfect, they all have hidden flaws, with the mould half pimple, the pimple goes precisely under my left thumb into the lubri-sizer, in turn that pimple goes into the chamber at 12 o'clock high, any flaws can then be adjusted to shoot to the rifle/sights, each and every time.
Just told a buddy about making a first shot 700 yard hit with barrel sights and a 152 year old Buffalo rifle, he said horseshlt, i then referred him to the vids Pacecars posted for us, then went on to explain the ladders are of the same height on the old rifle as with my newer Shilohs, also told him to pay close attention to the 100 yard shot video, notice before i shot at 100 i had the ladder up, had just made a 200 yard shot to gauge the wind, he texted back, OH, good shooting buddy.
Many dont get these rifles worked 150 years ago, they still work today if you feed them right, much like the days of old matchscores and records you posted, specifically remember one poster on this board questioning Saint Bagwell about shooting his 45-70 at 500 yards, that guy started quoting drops at those ranges basically calling him a liar and said it was impossible.
I advised him to bring his money and favorite catchers mitt, squat down at 600 yard and have Saint Bagwell fire him a fastball, i also advised to bring a driver, as he wouldn't be remembering the trip back home. also remember it was time to go brim fishing, the crickets came out and the thread died.
You're going to have a blast with these experiments.
Sir Jerry and Sir Ron, "first shot 700 yard hit with barrel sights and a 152 year old Buffalo rifle" That's what I mean about being unworthy! I'm pretty sure I've never hit anything at 700 yards! Nor, come to think of it, have any place to shoot 700 yards! :-)
Seriously though - Sir Jerry - are these videos online? Can you post a link? Thanks, Jeff
OOH how I love Goldie. I can smell the Buffalo on the south wind as they make their way up from the Llano Estacado, following the grass back to the Great Plains summer range.
OOH how I love Goldie. I can smell the Buffalo on the south wind as they make their way up from the Llano Estacado, following the grass back to the Great Plains summer range.
Yep, Norma brass for the .458 WM is "special," special enough for use with duplexed BP loads in the .458 WM+. The Norma .458 WM brass is a couple of grains H2O bigger gross than Starline .45-2.6". Hornady, R-P and W-W-Super brass are a couple of grains H2O gross smaller than Starline .45-2.6". For the .45-100-2.6" Sharps Straight Winchester Throated, aka .45-70 Elko Magnum, the Starline .45-2.6" brass is perfect. My chamber for that one is 2.620" long so I let the brass grow to 2.610", no sweat.
And the Accurate Molds 46-485N&Z brass two-fer arrived after just a little over a month wait:
Nice job Sir Ron, i always grab a patched bullet by the nose, dip it up to the top of patch, sit on wax paper to dry, i cut Rooster Jacket 50/50 with water, i feel it is unduly thick for paper patching purposes, i dont want to add too much o.d. to hinder dirty shooting/hunting, have never patched a loaded round but i'm sure you certainly could.
I also welcome the added durability to the patch after Rooster Jacket lube for a more superior purchase [crimp] on the bullet as well as added protection while hunting, rain, saw briars, mud, in and out of leather shell belt, in and out of off and on pickups, horses, atv's etc.
Plus, in the case of the 461 Gibbs, Selous/Seyfried experiment, some magic occurred with a simple 120 thou wad stack and Rooster Jacket, no lube cookie, the rifle shot hard, accurate and clean, really weird deal i should revisit, there can obviously 'never' be any powder contamination issues with ammunition so put together, if kept from the bottom of a lake, it would last forever.
Sir Jerry, You have cured me of ignorance on the use of paper patch lube. BUY A DONKEY for the great teaching. I have finger-dipped 5 more of my PP bullets in 50:50 Rooster Jacket and water. I like that a lot. Makes the paper jackets a lot tougher and more water proof. Sort of glues the jackets in place and strengthens them, like shellac when it dries.
I noticed that Rooster Jacket actually penetrates Cut-Rite wax paper and marks the surface under the wax paper with whitish residue. Rooster Jacket smells like the liquid floor wax sprayed on smooth marble or tile floors before taking the buffing machine to them to shine them. Yes, I am an experienced janitor, my first real job at age 16 y.o.
I might as well load 5 more of my PP bullets and try them in the .458 WM+ M70, compare to how they do in the .45-2.6" SWT. I'll make a day of it, home on the range, soon as I get caught up on my bushhogging (picking up sticks and cutting the grass in the yard). I also need to see to the planting (12' x 12' garden patch) and mend the fences on the ranch (only 260' remain unfenced on two sides of the backyard). Yes, as far as ranching goes, I am all hat and no cattle.
LOL, You have it going on now Sir Ron, and you're most welcome, btw, i have a crazy old buddy with underground range, i brought some rooster jacket lubed paper patch loads for my 45-110 and shot them there, yes, exhaust fans were on high, after the smoke cleared i was able to find bits of paper patch confetti all over the concrete slab floor just a few feet in front of his bench, so yes, no worries about the treated patches hanging on to the bullet hindering accuracy, they will let go muy pronto.
Cant wait to see groups, or better still you standing over a dead buffalo with a 458 Win Mag+ or even Goldie.
Good to know. Rooster Jacket does not make the paper patch stick to lead slick. Most of the armies of the world used paper-patched bullets for many years, in all kinds of battle conditions, rain or shine. They had their methods of water-proofing the paper patches, I have read, such as some kind of wax dip, according to Paul Matthews.
I loaded the greasers sitting directly on top of the lube cookie, BeesWax&OliveOil (BWOO), with some compression in seating the bullet. When I pulled one of those (with kinetic puller) to load to longer COL and less compression, the BWOO Cookie or Biscuit (BWOOC or BWOOB) came out of the case adherent to base of bullet, but when I touched it, it fell off the base of bullet. The mildly compressed BP stayed in the case, snugged under the poker-card wad. Pressing cold lead onto cold lube does not cause much bonding. Still, a wax paper layer between bullet and BWOOB would not be a bad thing.
I used a Cut-Rite wax paper wad between the BWOOB and the paper-patched bullets. I will check for downrange paper patch material when I shoot them.
From the .458 WM and .45-2.6"-SWT ballistic twins, I will eventually perfect my cast bullet techniques for application to more exotic things like: .38/55 .40-65 .40-90 .45-70 .45-75 .50-70 .50-90 Feeding those BPCR babies properly with cast greasers and paper-patched is as natural as a mother breast feeding with two bazooms. Smokeless and jacketed are like sticking a bottle in a baby's mouth. Any modern rifle can do smokeless and jacketed, some can handle some cast bullets well with smokeless, but it is most certainly best done with a .458 Winchester Magnum, the Elvis and the Muhammad Ali of rifles. Versatile, eh?
Fellows, Here on the Great Plains there is no barrier or fee for roaming the grassland with 458WM in hand watching for the return of the buffalo or for the 100 LB Tusker feeding on the Verdant plain. Each spring I venture out to walk the hills and valleys ready and able to deal with whatever comes to the front sight. If indeed you want to shoot some actual Buffalo; yes there are some folks in my neck of the woods with with herds that they do sell shoots on. I have never checked into that but could if you so wish. Best regards, Fury01
Sir Dennis, Guardian of the Plains, When on elephant & deer patrol, you are well served by the 480-gr FN at about 1800 fps. That's overkill for deer and at that moderate velocity it might pass through an elephant if the alloy is hard enough. Saint Elmer Keith approved of 400-gr FN at 1800 fps from a .45-70 Govt. for elk. Saint Bill Bagwell approved of a 480-gr FN at 1300 fps from a .45-70 for bison. Saint Finn Aagaard approved of a 500-gr FMJ solid at 2000 fps from a .458 WM for making bloody big holes through elephant. Seems like your 480-grainer might be the happy middle ground, about like Sir Bob's 465-grainer at 1900 fps in semi-hard alloy.
480-ish grainers of alloy hardness from 10 to 25 BHN and velocities from 1200 to 2200 fps will find great utility in the .458 WM, from the softer and slower .459" grease-grooved to the harder and faster .461" PC-painted. At 2200 fps, that is full Nitro Express equivalent.
Please do put an ear to the ground as our bison scout.
Dang the dilemma now Sir Ron, a buffalo hunt with a 44-77 buffalo rifle copper penny sighted and paper patched by Saint Bagwell i've sworn to hunt with this year, even in Africa if that trip happens, or a newly put together 458 Win Mag+........?????
If the hunt comes to fruition, we may have to run a double weapons split test to get them both used and reported on right here.
I have a farmer buddy who at one time had two HUGE bulls invade one of his pastures a few winters back. He told me to shoot them as he was tired of them tearing up his fences. I thought he was kidding and he is still mad at me for not doing it. The next week the owner came and ran them back through all the fences to home. I was deer hunting at the time and had my old 35 Whelen. I had seen the tracks and assumed they were Bull Cattle so was surprised in the dark timber to see those huge shaggy heads appear when I found them in their beds. I have promised him that I would not make the same mistake twice!
Canuckistan, can you PM me? Your message box is full. I called Bashaw and would like to update you on the Norma brass. Thanks.
I tried to look at my messages and it says I don't have enough topic to send private message when I look I my message box it say 0 send me a PM concerning the update on bashaw
Canuckistan, can you PM me? Your message box is full. I called Bashaw and would like to update you on the Norma brass. Thanks.
I tried to look at my messages and it says I don't have enough topic to send private message when I look I my message box it say 0 send me a PM concerning the update on bashaw
When I tried to PM you, it said you were over your PM limit...who knows.
I have a farmer buddy who at one time had two HUGE bulls invade one of his pastures a few winters back. He told me to shoot them as he was tired of them tearing up his fences. I thought he was kidding and he is still mad at me for not doing it. The next week the owner came and ran them back through all the fences to home. I was deer hunting at the time and had my old 35 Whelen. I had seen the tracks and assumed they were Bull Cattle so was surprised in the dark timber to see those huge shaggy heads appear when I found them in their beds. I have promised him that I would not make the same mistake twice!
Dangit man, what a deal that would have been, plus, you would have had to go buy an extra deep freezer ; ]
http://thehomesteadranch.com/ Going to check with some local folks too but this site seems to have some good choices and prices to go along with it.
Nice ! Buy a donkey for that, Sir Dennis.
I went to Nebraska once and brought home the meat of a 3-1/2 y.o. bull in 6 coolers about 5-feet long. That was done with a 404 Jeffery and a 380-gr North Fork SP at just over 2500 fps. Kansas would be a little closer for me.
Your tale of the missed opportunity at 2 bison bulls is a woeful one. Condolences. I once heard of a local farmer here who thought he could stock a try at a game farm with bison surplus from Land Between the Lakes herd in KY. It did not work out and he allowed me to take a 5-1/2 y.o. bull for just a dollar per pound of dead weight on the truck scales. That was with a .510/460 Wby Improved Jenkins and Berry aka .510 JAB aka .500 A2 with a slightly different shoulder and throat. 570-grainers at about 2400 fps MV.
I have changed my wicked ways and must take the next bison with a .458 WM or .458 WM+.
BTW, Here is a way to index the bullets from a 4-cavity mould, like Sir Jerry does. Saint Bagwell surely did it too, for barrel-sight groups on the 500-yard gong that most humans could not do with a scope. I have noted the marks all the same on some lots of bullets, as with one mark for a single cavity, but those could have been sorted from 4 different lots from a 4-cavity mould:
Seems anyone going for ultimate accuracy with .458-caliber cast bullets at long range indexes the bullets, some even figure which side of their brass case is thinner and index the brass case and the bullet to 12 O'clock in chamber of the rifle. Above mould looks like an LBT .458/ 300-gr WFNGC eh ? Not supposed to be an accuracy mould but someone has made it into one.
I thought about what it would take to skin and butcher out a Bull in that timber and let up on the trigger pressure. Without a tractor or two horse hitch to roll them over, I would think it impossible. Could not have gotten a tractor to where they were. I guess with chain, come-a-long anything is possible with a few stout buddies but... They were in full winter fur and really beautiful.
Man, that would have been a chit-ton of cold, long work with two quick pulls of a trigger, but ho lee damn the rewards of eating and sharing the meat with 'GOOD" folk, skull mounts, and maybe a nice rug or two for Wife.
NOTE: If you have a Winchester Mod. 70 chambered for 458 Win Mag or 375 H&H please email me for special hole spacing. (.330" instead of standard .860")
Hopefully Mr. Skinner did his homework and has made it work with the factory front sight.
Too bad one must choose between the NEAR Picatinny and the Skinner peep, one or the other.
The .458 WCF would have a throat like the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum of course. The COL shown above with the 500-gr Hornady InterLock is 2.945". Brass length is 2.125".
Is there a lever action that can handle a 3 inch COL ? Gross case capacity of this .458 WCF (formed from .50 Alaskan brass by Starline, run into an RCBS .45-75 WCF FL die with Imperial Sizing Wax): Will pull the bullet and see.
Hopefully Mr. Skinner did his homework and has made it work with the factory front sight.
Too bad one must choose between the NEAR Picatinny and the Skinner peep, one or the other.
The .458 WCF would have a throat like the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum of course. The COL shown above with the 500-gr Hornady InterLock is 2.945". Brass length is 2.125".
Is there a lever action that can handle a 3 inch COL ? Gross case capacity of this .458 WCF (formed from .50 Alaskan brass by Starline, run into an RCBS .45-75 WCF FL die with Imperial Sizing Wax): Will pull the bullet and see.
Whooooaaa, now that 458 WCF is pretty danged cool looking!
OK, until corrected by sumbuddy who know, I call it ~2.85" for the .45-90 maximum COL in an 1886 or M71. Throat the well-known .450 Alaskan like a .458 WM and it will become the .450 A+ in an 1886 or M71. The specs on Harold Johnson's .450 Alaskan seem to be well known and written in stone. Better get to work with some dummies to see what I can see. The .458 WM+ bolt action might have a sister in the .450 A+ lever action. I would not call her the weak sister though ... Rifles are female, cartridges are male.
The James H. Watts copyright of 1952 for the ".450 Watts Rimmed" appears under the heading COPYRIGHT OF THE .450 ALASKAN CARTRIDGE on page 73 of this book by Cal Pappas:
That account leads one to believe that Watts was in Washington state during 1950 to 1951, teaching at a University in Seattle and having Harvey Anderson in Yakima, WA build his .450 Watts Rimmed 1886 and M71 rifles for him. He went back to Alaska and built bridges on the Seward highway and as far west on the Kenai Peninsula as Cooper Landing, where Watts showed his .450 Watts Rimmed to Harold Johnson in 1951. Johnson adopted his version of it as the .450 Alaskan, and the rest is history, fascinating. First .450 Watts Magnum on an FN Mauser in 1949, copyrighted in 1950 by gunsmith Harvey Anderson. First .450 Watts Rimmed on a re-bored (by P.O. Ackley) .40-65 Winchester 1886 that had belonged to Mrs. Watts Grandfather, chambered by Harvey Anderson, second one done by a re-barrel of a new M71 .348 WCF, all circa 1950 to 1951, copyrighted in 1952 by James H. Watts, probably after Harold Johnson started making them as the .450 Alaskan in 1952.
James Watts is the Rodney Dangerfield of the .450 Bore. His pets in the H&H belted case included brass lengths of 2.00, 2.25, 2.50, and 2.85 inches. Winchester liked the 2.5" case best. James Watts killed a grizzly charging him in the middle of Black Rapids Creek, with one shot from a .375 H&H M70 in 1938. But the bear came on and smacked Watts' gunbelt off his waist with a paw as it ran over him. That was the inspiration for the .450 Watts Magnum finally realized post WWII in 1949. It occurred on a solo 400-mile walk from the Fairbanks area to Valdez. I once drove it with the inlaws in the back seat of my SUV. That was a test of endurance also.
More distant relative, was Winchester's answer to not being able to fit the .45-70 Govt. COL into the M1876:
Algorithmically, the smartly named .45-75 WCF is only about 1 grain of water bigger than the .45-70 Govt. 79.2 gr H2O versus 78.0 gr H2O, gross case capacity.
Ron, thanks for the Watts history. Man, that .46 WCF is a serious cartridge!
Since you are proposing making the .450 Alaskan better by giving it a Win Mag throat, couldn't we also improve it by lessening the case body taper to about 0.007" per inch like modern cases? This should yield about 2 more grains of powder--perhaps not worth it--while decreasing bolt thrust. I can't find a drawing of .450-348 Ackley Improved, so this may have already been done.
50-110 WCF in Turnbull Browning '86, 2.985" with 600gr cast bullet from Brooks mould, .585" of bullet out of the case, runs great.
Sir Jerry, Buy a donkey for that. I wonder if Mr. Turnbull had to do anything fancy to get a COL of 2.985" to work through a Browning '86 .50-110 WCF ?
I have a .45-70 Browning '86 and have not gotten the "longCOL" dummies for that made up yet, will see how far it will go. Interesting that with a brass length of 2.145" for Johnson's .450 Alaskan, a COL of 2.985" allows a bullet projection of 0.840". That is exactly same as for the .458 WM with max BL of 2.500" and COL of 3.340".
For the .45-70 Long Throat of Bob Mitchell, with 2.105" max BL and COL of 2.985", bullet projection is 0.880". Bob's throat was not quite as long as that of the SAAMI .458 WM, he never specified it that I know of. Putting the SAAMI .458 WM throat on a .45-70 Government would have to be called a .45-70 LT+ as a specifier.
Ron, thanks for the Watts history. Man, that .46 WCF is a serious cartridge!
Since you are proposing making the .450 Alaskan better by giving it a Win Mag throat, couldn't we also improve it by lessening the case body taper to about 0.007" per inch like modern cases? This should yield about 2 more grains of powder--perhaps not worth it--while decreasing bolt thrust. I can't find a drawing of .450-348 Ackley Improved, so this may have already been done.
bcelliott,
Dave Kiff, PT&G, has the reamer for a "450/348 Ack Imp" with a reamer shoulder diameter of 0.5350" (40 degrees) as compared to his "450 Alaskan" reamer with a shoulder diameter of 0.5210" (16*32'). Those are reamer minimums. The brass maximum for the traditional 450 Alaskan is 0.5200" (16*30') at the shoulder diameter, so only 0.001" tolerance minimum. That'll double headspace a rimmed cartridge.
The .450 Alaskan pictured at ammoguidedotcom is slightly different, mostly in length of brass (2.250") which gives it a longer neck, and the neck is tighter and with no taper. The algorithm used there to calculate gross water capacity yields only 88.1 grains, not reality:
Greater taper feeds better, but bolt thrust reduction is a great selling point for the AI version, according to Ackley.
I will scan the improved and traditional reamer drawings and do a simple RCBS cartridge design for the PT&G AI reamer and get it up here, later, for fun.
More fun is still awaiting wind, weather, and domestic chores getting in the way of shooting those BP loads for the .458 WM+ and .45-2.6" SWT. I need to go to a private range so as to use the Oehler 35P at 10 yards instead of 5 yards, with a 100-yard paper target. This is in hopes of the lube wads doing no damage to nor fooling the chrono. Such a setup is not possible at the public range. Will have to SWAG a 10-yard correction to MV.
The PT&G 450 Alaskan reamer would chamber for another variation of the cartridge:
The PT&G 450/348 Ackley Improved:
Yep, using the cylindrical .50 brass long enough to make the 2.255" brass length and the 0.502" neck is appealing, with possible benefit of less bolt thrust and longer case life.
So I get some .45-70 Gov. W-W Super brass all measuring 2.105" max brass length to try with various bullets in the Browning '86 to see what the maximum COL is that can be shoved through the loading gate and levered from the magazine into the chamber. First I slugged the barrel and found a .457" groove diameter. The throat is just a 12-ish-degree chamfer from case mouth into the rifling, basically no throat, on a SAAMI .45-70 Gov:
And of course this inspires the .45-70 Long Throat Plus (45-70 LT+) which is a re-throating of Bob Mitchell's .45-70 LT with the .458 WM throat. A one-piece reamer would be nice, to increase the case mouth diameter to same as .458 WM: 0.481" Rechamber any .45-70, or re-barrel, with any .457", .458" or .459" grooved barrels.
Bob had a .45-70 LT load (that he used in a Ruger No. 1) pressure tested by the Accurate Powders folks, and was getting very near SAAMI .458 WM ballistics at acceptable pressures, with a little less throat than on the .45-70 LT+.
But, even the unadulterated .45-70 Govt. will Bagwell with the BHN-10 480-gr PH bullet at 1300 fps. Saint Bagwell specified a smokeless load with that bullet: 38.5 gr of IMR-3031 for 1350 fps. Bob Mitchell has touted the 480-gr DGX as a substitute for when the proper FN cast bullet is not available. The gilding-washed, steel-jacketed 480-gr DGX-Bonded will tolerate being driven faster for sure with 2.780" COL in the .45-70 Govt. lever action or single shot. For extra flare, adding the longer throat effectively increases case capacity and reduces pressure.
In the bolt-action or single-shot .458 WM and .458 WM+ with 480-grainers of any type, 1300 fps to 2300 fps is plumb tropical.
In one of his rare posts on AR, Turnbull mentioned that one of the problems of the “450 Alaskan” was the large number of variations as it was a wildcat that was never standardised. That means you need to be careful to find loading dies to match what ever chamber you might have. This was one of his reasons for coming out with the 475 Turnbull (which is standardised and listed by SAAMI). As an aside I think he recommends 2.75” as the OAL max for the 475.
Years ago I wanted something with a bit more power than a 45/70 and after considering the options I had a 45/90 built on a Browning 71. In hindsight I had a Browning 1886 and all I had to do was either alter the throat or use bullets that were bore riders. You can effectively achieve 45/90 ballistics from a 45/70 in an 1886 by doing that. Below is a link to another site where I had another poster put up some pics of various 45/70 loads with different bore riding designs, some of which were loaded to 45/90 length. The ones pictured can be loaded into the mag, chambered and ejected unfired from a stock Browning 1886.
One of the reasons users like the 45/70 is they enjoy good accuracy and performance using cast pills. As shown above it’s not that difficult to gain improved ballistics using the stock throat and simply selecting the bullets used. Doing this also means you can use regular 45/70 brass and loads, providing huge load flexibility. It’s similar to your SAAMI length and long col loadings for the 458WM.
I find the 458 WM throat great for dissipating pressure but far from ideal for cast bullet use. I know you’ve cracked the code, which is a huge achievement but if I was going to improve on the 45/70’s no throat design I’d add a throat similar to the 450 Marlin.
Apart from several Marlins and NEFs in .45-70, I've owned a total of two .45-70s in the Ruger No.1, and the second one, that was NIB, had a shorter throat than the first that I bought second hand. So I had the throat lengthened on the second due to its shorter throat and because I wanted to seat the long monolithic bullets in particular out of the case farther giving more room for powder. Being a single-shot allowed this of course.
So all bullets for the Ruger No.1 .45-70 LT (long throat) were seated to the same depth whether a 350gr TSX or a 500gr Hornady, that being 1/4"; the 500gr taking no more space in the case than the 350, or even an ordinary 300gr Hornady. Of course, the shorter bullets also had a shorter COL. My "smith" lengthened the throat by 0.30" which was about perfect for what I wanted. That allowed a COL of 3.19" for the 500gr Hornady and the 450gr Swift. But those two were only about 25/1000" off the lands, keeping the psi high enough for the results obtained: 2200 fps for the 500 and 2300 fps for the 450. I was also getting 2530 fps for the 350 TSX and up to 2700 fps for the 300 TSX but I settled for 2650 for better accuracy from the 300, and 2470 fps from the 350 TSX for the same reason.
I gave the first No.1 to my second son and was getting +2000 fps from the 500gr Hornady at 2.93" COL. The powder was AA2015BR, and was tested for me at the Accurate facility and pronounced "safe" in the Ruger from its 22" barrel. They got about 2100 from their 24" test barrel. The longer throat in the new Ruger No.1, plus a slower powder (H335) added about 200 fps to the 500.
The last Ruger was my favorite rifle for two decades for any and all big game hunting. However, at 8.4 lbs with scope, sling and 4 in a buttstock cartridge holder, recoil was arouund 50 ft-lbs average, and over 70 for the 450 Swift or 500 Hornady. It will soon be 3 years ago that I traded it for the No.1 in .458, not because I wanted any increase in ballistics, but approximately the same with about a 30% reduction in recoil due to the extra two pounds and Mag-na-ports of the .458. The 24 inch barrel and larger case of the .458 does add up to 150 fps for certain loads over the LT, but now I'm focusing on reduced loads due to age and arthritis.
To illustrate how throat length can affect results from the Ruger No.1 in .45-70 (or the .458 and other cartridges) we need only compare two SPEER manuals for their 400gr in .458. In #11 the results using 62 grains of RL-7 at COL 2.76" in the #1 Ruger .45-70 test rifle resulted in a max of 2178 fps at less than 35,000 CUP. In their #12 manual the COL was shortened to 2.54" due to new info that Ruger had shortened the throat of that rifle. That limited a max load of RL-7 to 52 grains at 31,000 CUP and 1934 fps. The difference was 4213 ft-lbs from a COL of 2.76" vs 3322 fp-lbs from a COL of 2.54", a difference of nearly 900 ft-lbs!
But by limiting the Ruger to a max of 35,000 CUP in either case, they've vastly misrepresented it's true potential. I was told by a Ruger rep that the Ruger No.1 in .45-70 and in .458 have the same strength!
JFE, thanks for the reply, plenty for study there:
Originally Posted by JFE
In one of his rare posts on AR, Turnbull mentioned that one of the problems of the “450 Alaskan” was the large number of variations as it was a wildcat that was never standardised. That means you need to be careful to find loading dies to match what ever chamber you might have.
I sure see that now, with 3 or 4 different "450 Alaskans" uncovered so far, and I am yet to find the specs for the elusive "450 Fuller" (another .458/.348 WCF) named for Harold "Bill" Fuller, the gunsmith who was building the "Johnson Kenai Rifle" 450 Alaskans for Harold Johnson.
This was one of his reasons for coming out with the 475 Turnbull (which is standardised and listed by SAAMI). As an aside I think he recommends 2.75” as the OAL max for the 475.
SAAMI spec for .475 Turnbull COL is 2.650" (min) to 2.780" (max) and MAP is 42,000 psi, good to know as a limit for the modern BACO/Miroku Winchester 1886.
Years ago I wanted something with a bit more power than a 45/70 and after considering the options I had a 45/90 built on a Browning 71. In hindsight I had a Browning 1886 and all I had to do was either alter the throat or use bullets that were bore riders. You can effectively achieve 45/90 ballistics from a 45/70 in an 1886 by doing that. Below is a link to another site where I had another poster put up some pics of various 45/70 loads with different bore riding designs, some of which were loaded to 45/90 length. The ones pictured can be loaded into the mag, chambered and ejected unfired from a stock Browning 1886.
Nice lineup, my stash of 450-gr North Fork bullets do expand the possibilities, as you illustrate.
One of the reasons users like the 45/70 is they enjoy good accuracy and performance using cast pills. As shown above it’s not that difficult to gain improved ballistics using the stock throat and simply selecting the bullets used. Doing this also means you can use regular 45/70 brass and loads, providing huge load flexibility. It’s similar to your SAAMI length and long col loadings for the 458WM.
Yes, very similar, 2.1" case length might surpass 2.4" case length performance with the correct throat and bullets for 2.8" COL for both cartridges at same MAP: 42,000 psi. That is just like the SAAMI .458 WM with 2.5" brass easily surpassing the SAAMI .458 Lott with 2.8" case length, when both cartridges are allowed 3.6" COL and same MAP: 62,500 psi.
I find the 458 WM throat great for dissipating pressure but far from ideal for cast bullet use. I know you’ve cracked the code, which is a huge achievement but if I was going to improve on the 45/70’s no throat design I’d add a throat similar to the 450 Marlin.
Buy a donkey for those flowers about "cracking the code" on cast bullets in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. Very simple: Hard-cast lead alloy with powder-coat paint and sized to 0.002" greater than groove diameter with smokeless powder. Gas check is optional for sub-1800 fps loads, add a gas check for plus-1800 fps. If you stay below 1400 fps, softer bullets matching the groove diameter perform adequately with PC paint or grease-lubed. The jury is still deliberating on paper-patched BP loads, surely a verdict coming this week.
SAAMI chambered throat minimums:
.45-70 Govt. (brass length 2.105" maximum): chamber mouth diameter 0.4827" at 2.1099" chamber length >>> chamber mouth chamfer at 12*45' >>> ends at bore diameter of 0.450" at 2.1789" length from breech bolt face to start of fully formed rifling.
.450 Marlin (brass length 2.100" maximum) chamber mouth diameter 0.4827" at 2.1179" chamber length >>> chamber mouth chamfer at 12*45' >>> ends at diameter of 0.465" at 2.1570" length >>> 2*30' leade starts at 0.465" diameter 2.1570" length >>> ends at bore diameter of 0.450" at 2.3288" from breech bolt face to start of fully formed rifling.
.458 Winchester Magnum (brass length 2.500" maximum) chamber mouth diameter 0.4830" at 2.5200" chamber length >>> chamber mouth chamfer at 45* 0' >>> ends at diameter of 0.469" at 2.5270" length >>> 0*29' 30" leade starts at 0.469" diameter 2.5270" length >>> ends at bore diameter of 0.450" at 3.6420" from breech bolt face to start of fully formed rifling.
Assume .458" bullet diameter and groove diameter for all three of the above chambers. .458-caliber cylinder travel from maximum brass length to start of .458"-grooved rifling in throat, which I like to call simply the "slug jump" of the throat:
.45-70 Govt. = 0.0611"
.450 Marlin = 0.1372"
.458 Winchester Magnum = 0.6725"
The .450 Marlin throat is hardly any different from the .45-70 Govt. when it comes to being able to use full diameter bullets for breaking the code.
Harold "Bill" Fuller (on the right) was the machinist-gunsmith for the 450 Alaskan(s) and 50 Alaskan of Harold Johnson. Along with his own .450 Fuller, he built Hawken-patterned muzzleloaders too:
Johnson's Mom & Pop country store and firearms factory from the 1950's:
I passed by that location many times in the late 1980's and early 1990's, ignorant of its former glory. I shall return to that place on a nostalgic tour to see what is left. But good bye to the idea of converting Browning Winchester 1886 or M71 to .450 Alaskan, when there is the magic of the .458 Win. Mag. throat to be applied in the .45-70 LT+. Even a stock 1886 .45-70 Govt. can handle the 480-gr Hornady DGX Bonded at 2.780" COL fast enough to make bloody big holes through anything needing it.
The forearm tip banding that Fuller and Johnson used to keep the tubular magazine attached to the rifle might be a good idea on a .45-70 LT+ ...
Good historical stuff !!! Sooo many things have been done to upgrade Winchester lever guns that I feel a bit guilty just loading my 1886.45-90 ( .458 2.4 ) and shooting it.
But the 450 grain Kodiak and 450 grain Punch bullets at 2150 fps did the job on ele. Cape Buff. water buff, etc so well, there was no reason to tinker with the actual cartridge or modify the rifle.
Bob - that was an interesting read about your experiences with the 45/70 Ruger No.1. Launching 500gr pills at 2000 FPS from a 7lb rifle would have been too much for me.
For the sake of clarity, your second Ruger No.1 that originally had a no throat chamber, when the throat was lengthened to 0.30” was it given a conventional parallel width throat, ie around 0.459/0.460”?
Good stuff Sir Ron, our buddy here at the 'fire mstevenson sent me that cannelure tool in the pic, i'll use it to roll a nice cannelure on some 500gr Partitions for a COL of 3.585 inch, would be fun to drive those bruisers at 2350 fps from the Great 458 Win Mag+!
That would be a nice mate for your 500-gr TBSS, absolutely. Here is your new-old canneluring tool, who made it ?
This one from CH4D works nicely for me:
Those are some .510/ .338 Lapua 2.7" cases (".500 Bateleur") made from Captech basic cylindrical (used in an FN Mauser with Wiebe 500 Jeffery bottom metal) and some 400 Whelen-B+ brass (meant for a 3.6" magazine, M70 Win 6-shooter, with Duane Wiebe XRM box) both of which can use a homemade cannelure on some bullets.
Back to the .458 WM+ and .45-70 LT+, the Barnes Buster 400-grainer has been advertised with two cannelures, but I have to put the second cannelure on the ones I have found. It will be great in a .45-70 LT+ for "deep penetrating bone crushing" backup of a milder mannered 405-grainer.
And the best use for .458 Lott brass, make quick work of them:
And another funny swiped from the image gallery here, thanks to member shaman:
Thanks Sir Ron, not a mark on that thing, either someone couldn't buy/find what they needed and just made one, fine job rolling on those cannelures, are those old Barnes or Hawk bullets with the pin hole in the bases?
Bob - that was an interesting read about your experiences with the 45/70 Ruger No.1. Launching 500gr pills at 2000 FPS from a 7lb rifle would have been too much for me.
For the sake of clarity, your second Ruger No.1 that originally had a no throat chamber, when the throat was lengthened to 0.30” was it given a conventional parallel width throat, ie around 0.459/0.460”?
Yes it was. And the pressure was evidently less though MV was increased by 200 fps from the 500 Hornady. That was due not only because of the relatively long throat but mostly being able to use a relatively slower ball powder (H335) compared to the faster stick powder (AA2015BR). The increase in the powder charge was 15 grains. That would not have been possible in the use of H4895, for example, because of its coarse grain stick powder. It was H335 that taught me to later use it in the CZ550 in .458 Win. I used a magnum primer to ignite H335 being a ball propellant - that being WLRM.
Bob - thanks for clarifying that point. I get the value in throating using a parallel throat.
What I don’t understand is why in the 458 Win Mag the throat starts at 0.469”?
Was it to dissipate gases faster? Your trials with the Ruger No.1 indicate that a similar performance increase may be possible without the need to use such a radical throat design.
Those were Barnes Original .510-cal./ 600-grainers with the hole in the base, and having varying amounts of lead smear showing, squeezed out of the "pinhole." The Barnes Buster .458-cal./ 400-grainer has a pinhole at both ends, but they are much tidier. I wonder if that would allow the Buster to be a legal "soft" where solids are not allowed for hunting ?
Now I must render an accounting for your charitable donation of bullets to the Crusade. First the .458-sized/ 570-grainers used in .458 WM+ with duplexed BP:
"Lube star" at the muzzle, and if there was any lead fouling it was minimal, easily cleaned up:
Mindful of minimizing paper waste, a previously small-bore-perforated target was used to get the bigger holes on paper:
No fooling of chronograph nor damage to sky screens by lube wads occurred with chrono placed at 7 to 8 yards. Only 5 rounds were chronographed to minimize the risk. 570-grainer instrumental velocity mean = 1236 fps, with Sd = 7 fps for the 5 shots:
About the charitably-donated, paper-patched 555-grainers with patched diameter of only 0.448", test-fired in the .45-2.6" SWT: 5 shots tried, 4 of 5 keyholed, only one made a round hole. I pulled the remaining 5 to save for another trial in a "no-throat" .45-70 Govt. with .457" groove diameter. Ditto my own 531-grainers which patched up to .449" diameter, 5 tried in the .45-2.6" SWT with Pedersoli barrel, only 2 made round holes. Goldie Ruger-Pedersoli was quite embarrassed by this. In the .458 WM+ my 531-grain, paper-patched bullets keyholed 5 more.
I have concluded that for the long-throat with wide base, if paper-patched and BP are used, the slick must be at least of bore diameter, and patched up to at least groove diameter. I had good results previously using .452"-diam./ 530-gr. pure lead slick (bought from Buffalo Arms Co.) patched up to .459" diameter, in a .459"-grooved, 22"-barreld (1:20" twist) .45-2.6"-SWT, made by re-chambering a factory Ruger No. 1 .45-70 Govt.
The five remaining 555-gr. paper-patched bullets will be held in trust for future expenditure when appropriate. Buy a donkey, Sir Jerry.
The SAAMI .458 WM throat allows use of .461-caliber cast bullets loaded long. I am convinced that, combined with PC paint, gas check and hard alloy, the .461" diameter is best in the common .459"-grooved .458 WM, for top accuracy and velocity smokeless loads. A .459"-diameter parallel-sided free-bore of whatever length requires fussing with bore-rider noses and other delicacies. Consider the poor ol' .458 Lott. The no-throat .45-70 Govt. might be better with paper-patched bullets, or we just have to get fussy and patch our full-bore slicks to groove diameter in a .458 WM or .458 WM+ or .45-2.6" SWT.
A .458"-diameter right cylinder displaces 41.66 grains of water per inch of length/height. If Bob loads his .45-70 LT 0.3" longer than his .45-70 Govt. load with a .458-caliber bullet, he has added (0.3 X 41.66) = 12.50 grains of water in effective capacity. H335 to fit in that extra space will weigh more than that since it is denser than water.
At that length of COL, Bob has reached the end of his throat in the .45-70 LT. With the .45-70 LT+, using a .458 WM throat, further effective case capacity increase as well as greater pressure let-off are possible. With the excellent accuracy record of the SAAMI .458 WM, what is to lose ?
Since Buffalo Arms Co. sells .451"- to .452"-diameter, swaged-lead slicks of 530-gr. weight, I bet it is no secret that they work well in .458"- to .459"-grooved barrels. BP or duplexed BP only, with paper patch, of course.
Here is the rifle that keyholed with sub-bore-diameter PP, 555-gr., 1:20 lead alloy:
Even with this lipstick on the pig:
Just laughing rather than crying about the spilt milk. Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger is no pig. Her Chamber:
Here is the .459"-grooved, 1:20" twist, 22"-barreled .45-100-Sharps Winchester Throated (.45-2.6" SWT) that did better with groove-diameter PP bullets and duplexed BP:
Lipstick on this piglet is a Nikon SlugHunter:
Here are the PP bullets used more successfully in the .458 Winchester Magnum throat of the .45-2.6" SWT:
Of course my .45-2.6" SWT is exactly the same as the C.I.P. homologated .45-70 Elko Magnum created decades before I thought I had invented something new.
I have only shot 10 paper-patched 530-gr BACO bullets in it with duplexed BP, getting over 1400 fps from the 22" barrel.
I wasted 20 more of them with smokeless, gaining nothing but unwanted velocity and worse accuracy: 35 grains of AA-5744 >>> 1255 fps 50 grains of AA-5744 >>> 1709 fps average of 5 shots and wild extreme spread of velocities ! Paper-patched bullets and AA-5744 mix like oil and vinegar.
So accounting for those 30 slicks out of a single box of 50, I have 20 more left. This may allow Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger a chance to save face, maybe do better than her runt sister, if loaded like Bobbee Boom-Boom Ruger had a fling with:
Correction: Above should read " ... powder compression may be reduced from 0.470" to 0.4315" ..." by substituting a poker-card wad and a Cut-Rite wax paper wad for the two Circle Fly card wads.
That was the first 10 paper-patched bullets I ever fired in June 2019, 20 more wasted with AA-5744. I fired 15 more on 4-14-2021, bringing my lifetime total to 45 fired in three different rifles: Bobbee, Goldie, and Marcella, two single-shot rifles, and one bolt-action rifle. This completes my latest audit of paper-patch bullet accounting. Yes, one of my three degrees is a Bachelor of Science in Accounting, but I refused to memorize useless manmade crap for the CPA exam way back then. Now you gotta have a master's degree to take such a crap !
Accurate Molds has these two interesting moulds for slicks that might work for paper patch bullets in the .458 WM throat. If it works in the .45-2.6" SWT it will work in the .458 WM+ or .45-70 LT+:
Those diameters and weights are for WW alloy. I would specify tolerances of -.000" / +.002" methinks.
A .458"-diameter right cylinder displaces 41.66 grains of water per inch of length/height. If Bob loads his .45-70 LT 0.3" longer than his .45-70 Govt. load with a .458-caliber bullet, he has added (0.3 X 41.66) = 12.50 grains of water in effective capacity. H335 to fit in that extra space will weigh more than that since it is denser than water.
At that length of COL, Bob has reached the end of his throat in the .45-70 LT. With the .45-70 LT+, using a .458 WM throat, further effective case capacity increase as well as greater pressure let-off are possible. With the excellent accuracy record of the SAAMI .458 WM, what is to lose ? .
Sir Ron;
Some clarification: I'm not 100% sure that the throat was extended by only 0.30". It may have been a bit more. I cite that number because that's what my gunsmith said, in his words (because I sent him some dummies): "How long do you want me to go, it's ABOUT .30" now." I told him that should be enough. I've never actually measured it. I simply wanted to be able to load the long bullets to 0.25" into the case without being jammed into the rifling, with a bit of "freebore". That worked for the 450 AF and 500 Hor. But later, I actually seated the 450 X-Bullet longer than 3.34" as in .458 WM without a hitch. I used 75 grains of H335 for the 500 and 75.5 for the 450... that's all i could get in without undue compression and still seat bullets to 0.25" If the throat had been 0.75", I still couldn't have loaded more H335, and the pressure would have been less with less MV.
In my CZ550 in .458 that came later, I used the extra "free bore" and long action to seat bullets "long", which was not strange to me as I'd done that with several rifles that permitted it. But to that point I'd been somewhat influenced by Finn Aagaard who had done a test of five rifles in .458 Win, including his own with a 23" barrel, using factory ammo from Federal, Winchester and Remington. These were 500s. The riffle that gave best results across the board in MV was his own semi-custom with a short throat and 23" barrel. For example: From the Federal 500gr he got 2188 fps from their 500, and he accounted it to the short throat, which he didn't previously know was in his new .458 barrel that had replaced the "finished" .423". He said the long throat was "a mistake". He also said he didn't experience any signs of "high pressure" from his rifle.
Of course, in a .458 with an action that permits it, seating bullets longer than SAAMI is the right way to go, as in my CZ or Ruger No.1 to take advantage of the chamber and leade. That's all been settled now and I'd want any .458 in my possession to have the "long throat" allowing more room for the best powders without undue PSI.
Your blog never disappoints, thanks. Ruger4Life, though I applaud his handle and could use it for myself, was probably just yanking our chains, or he needs to read your blog.
You could have checked your throat length on the .45-70 LT by the slug and rod method. From what you are saying, sounds like it was greater than 0.3" long X 0.459" diameter of parallel-sided free-bore. Your gunsmith was as precise as Finn Aagaard's Kenyan gunsmith.
About Finn Aagaard saying the long throat of the .458 WM was a mistake, I remember that well and have the article where it happened. IIRC, he said that one time in all his writings. It is the only time I ever disagreed with Saint Finn, other than a few times wishing he would be more precise, such as, for example, when he said most .458 WM rifles have 7/8" of free travel in the throat. Minimum spec is for 0.6725" free travel if the bullet is 0.458" diameter at the case mouth of 2.500" brass, and if the bullet has an ogive of reducing diameters above that. That free travel will be even less if the bullet is a full .458" diameter at any level beyond the case mouth, as most are.
When Finn Aagaard attributed over 100 fps of extra velocity to his custom barreled .458 WM of 23" barrel length and 1/8" free travel in throat, he compared it to a 22"-barreled, pushfeed, factory M70, and neglected to mention, immediately in that comparison, the longer-than-SAAMI-minimum throat of the 22-incher which he revealed elsewhere, and neglected any differences in bore and groove and finish inside the barrels, and neglected any pressure comparison except to say that he had never seen any indications of pressure problems in the field, with any .458 WM he had owned.
It is well known that many times rifles thought to be identical in chamber and barrel specs may be 200 fps or more apart in MV with the same ammo.
I will dig up the articles that mention the .425 WR Mauser 98 that Finn Aagaard had custom barreled to .458 WM by a Kenyan gunsmith with a custom barrel and unbeknowst to Finn Aagaard at the outset, a short throat, later discovered. I am glad you agree that the SAAMI .458 WM throat was not a mistake. The Lottite Cabal may have corrupted even Finn Aagaard, before the end of his earthly career. That statement came late in his life. However, I bet he recanted before his sainthood arrived.
I am having trouble finding certain powders for Hornady's listed loads for 300 JHP in 458 WinMag. Can I substitute loads for the 450 Marlin.
Specifically 50 grains RL-7 with 300 JHP with a goal of 2000 fps. Will I be safe and close to the money?
I used 60 grains of RL7 with the Hornady 300 JHP. I never shot them over a chrono but I believe I found the data in the Sierra manual.
Thank you beretzs. That boosts my confidence. What velocity did Sierra show in the manual for 60gr? OK, I am reading a little closer. You may not have that manual handy. If not, no problem. I was thinking to up the charge to 55 or if the book shows 2,000 with 60, then I would load that. At this point, I am splitting hairs. I will flip a coin
If the 300gr bullets are not accurate, then I may try something a little heavier. My limited experience is the biggest variable for accuracy is the bullet. I took a chance on 100 of these Hornady. These days, I am lucky to find anything for components.
Hi Ron, glad you made it over. I have a question. I have a spare Win 70 stainless in 338 WM I’d like to rebarrel into 458. Any suggestions on who can do the work? I’d like it fairly light 21-22” NECG sights and cerakote it. Any thoughts? Regards S
I am having trouble finding certain powders for Hornady's listed loads for 300 JHP in 458 WinMag. Can I substitute loads for the 450 Marlin.
Specifically 50 grains RL-7 with 300 JHP with a goal of 2000 fps. Will I be safe and close to the money?
I used 60 grains of RL7 with the Hornady 300 JHP. I never shot them over a chrono but I believe I found the data in the Sierra manual.
Thank you beretzs. That boosts my confidence. What velocity did Sierra show in the manual for 60gr? OK, I am reading a little closer. You may not have that manual handy. If not, no problem. I was thinking to up the charge to 55 or if the book shows 2,000 with 60, then I would load that. At this point, I am splitting hairs. I will flip a coin
If the 300gr bullets are not accurate, then I may try something a little heavier. My limited experience is the biggest variable for accuracy is the bullet. I took a chance on 100 of these Hornady. These days, I am lucky to find anything for components.
I would look to 3031 powder if you have any, slow that hp to around 1800 fps if you can safely do so, it'll still shoot plenty flat and penetrate better woed up a bit, it should shoot really well in the Great 458 Win Mag.
Good stuff Sir Ron, hope those missiles i sent weren't too long, they did punch nice round holes, getting good hunting accuracy while shooting dirty is half the fun.
That is great info. Thank you. I loaded up my first 20 rounds using 56 grains RL7. That should be plenty fast for 300gr hollow points. Tomorrow's weather looks promising for a day at the club.
Gunner 500,
I do have some 3031. Although, I kinda holding whats left that for my 303 Brit. If you have a pet load for 1800fps. Let me know and I will put that in the margins along with the RL7 info.
Hi Ron, glad you made it over. I have a question. I have a spare Win 70 stainless in 338 WM I’d like to rebarrel into 458. Any suggestions on who can do the work? I’d like it fairly light 21-22” NECG sights and cerakote it. Any thoughts?
My local smith is backed up and I could not recommend you send something from Idaho to Kentucky right now. Unless Charlie Sisk would take on something so simple, yet so worthy ...
That is great info. Thank you. I loaded up my first 20 rounds using 56 grains RL7. That should be plenty fast for 300gr hollow points. Tomorrow's weather looks promising for a day at the club.
Gunner 500,
I do have some 3031. Although, I kinda holding whats left that for my 303 Brit. If you have a pet load for 1800fps. Let me know and I will put that in the margins along with the RL7 info.
fourbore,
You should do well with that. In Ken Waters Pet Loads, he has over 60 loads listed for his .458 WMs, a 24" Ruger No.1 and a 22" Winchester M70. Under "Reduced Loads," all with W-W brass and W-120 primer in the 24" Ruger No. 1:
300-gr Sierra HP 55.0 grains of Re-7, COL 3.00" >>> 2,026 fps "SECOND MOST ACCURATE LOAD" (Out of 61 loads Waters commented on.) 60.0 grains of IMR-3031, COL 3.00" >>> 1,902 fps
300-gr Hornady HP 58.0 grains of Re-7, COL 2.99" >>> 2,062 fps "GOOD LOAD"
And not so reduced: 350-gr Hornady RN 72.0 grains Re-7, COL 3.05" >>> 2,194 fps "ONE OF TWO BEST ALL-AROUND LOADS; MOST ACCURATE LOAD TESTED"
(The 300-gr Sierra HP has been known to vaporize within 25 yards of muzzle when traveling over 2800 fps MV. Ask me how I know. I actually fired a second one and it vaporized inside the muzzle brake. I was using AA-1680 ...)
The Barnes TSX and TTSX are recommended for velocities over 2500 fps with 300-grainer, ho, ho. 1800 to 2100 fps is plenty with those 300-gr HPs from Sierra and Hornady.
I would not hesitate to use some filler for the reduced loads above, like foam wad filler (caulk backer rod). Waters used kapok wads in his cast bullet loads:
"Kapok wads weighing 3/4-grain, tamped down lightly on the powder, helped materially but proved insufficient to allow any major increase in velocities ..."
The Barnes monometals can be loaded all the way up to Obi Wan Bob levels if you like. Maybe I'll make it to +3000 fps with the Hornady 250-gr Monoflex one of these days.
Good stuff Sir Ron, hope those missiles i sent weren't too long, they did punch nice round holes, getting good hunting accuracy while shooting dirty is half the fun.
Shooting dirty ! I like that ! Thanks again for the donated bullets. The Greasers are not too long, just need to be indexed, right ? After I do the full-bore paper-patched in Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger with BP again, I have a desire to do a smokeless load for 250-gr Monoflex from Hornady ...
Welcome, and buy a donkey for casting flowers upon the CRUSADE. I know what you mean about chores, too many old ladies need attention here too, and it snowed an inch last night in Kentucky between 10 PM and midnight, vanished soon as the sun rose. I have a plan for some more 300-grain bullet review, before moving on to the 250-grainers for some more experiments ...
A bit outside the current topic in the thread, but has anyone sectioned any .458 Win Mag brass? I'm interested in how cylindrical the I.D. is (and how far down) compared to the outer taper before or after full length sizing.
Good stuff Sir Ron, hope those missiles i sent weren't too long, they did punch nice round holes, getting good hunting accuracy while shooting dirty is half the fun.
Shooting dirty ! I like that ! Thanks again for the donated bullets. The Greasers are not too long, just need to be indexed, right ? After I do the full-bore paper-patched in Goldie Pedersoli-Ruger with BP again, I have a desire to do a smokeless load for 250-gr Monoflex from Hornady ...
That'll work Sir Ron, i fell off the wagon a bit today, another experiment touched on, the puny 50 1-3/4" Sharps was able to record 1242 fps over the chrono with a 530gr grease groove bullet, that's some serious horsepower from the stubby early one, 15 feet away may correct to a dead on 1250 fps, i'll take that all day any day, if i can keep 5 inch groups at 200 yards with the barrel sights, it'll be ready and waiting on November.
A bit outside the current topic in the thread, but has anyone sectioned any .458 Win Mag brass? I'm interested in how cylindrical the I.D. is (and how far down) compared to the outer taper before or after full length sizing.
Never off topic if it can be related to the .458 WM in any way. I cannot get anymore technical than to say that of the 5 types of brass I load with .458 WM and .458 WM+ equivalent loads, all look good. Hornady LOOKS the strongest to eyeball with no concerns about metallurgy for any of them that I can speculate about. Repetitious below, with some slightly different angles and lighting:
In my lots of brass, the Hornady(H), Remington(R-P), and Winchester (W-W Super) .458 WM brass (at 2.500" length) are all about 94.5 grains gross water capacity, once-fired, not re-sized. The Starline .45-2.6" brass (at 2.600" length) is about 2 grains bigger in H2O than the H, R-P, and W-W. The Norma .458 WM is about 5 grains bigger in H2O than the H, R-P, and W-W. I can only speculate about why that is so. Your brass lots may differ.
Hoorah ! The .50-70 Govt. is also one of my favorites, the first centerfire military rifle cartridge of the USA in 1866, maybe the first in the world ? Buffalo Bill killed plenty of bizon with his Lucretia Borgia so chambered.
I have a McNelly Sharps carbine replica .50-70 like Glenn Campbell used as a Texas Ranger in True Grit. It has a 1:18" twist by gosh, 0.512" groove. I could make use of your load in that if I ever need to punish myself.
My Custer Replica Rolling Block in .50-70 has a 24" twist and .510 groove. IIRC you are shooting a 1:22" twist. What BP charge are you using with that 530-grainer in the .50-70 Govt. ?
I will not be trying that in my 1867 vintage Trapdoor with 1:42" twist and .515"-ish groove diameter.
Well hell of a deal Sir Ron, didn't know you were a 50 1-3/4" fan, i'm fast becoming one too, what a fun little round slap full of history.
My rifle is a 30 twist, 30 inch standard weight barrel. Bullet is .512" and 1.130" long, weighs 530 grains, is a round nose flat point with about a 180 thou meplat, 30 twist will easily stabilize that.
I knew i'd be compressing powder .650 thou with a 10 thou playing card wad on top in the stubby little case to cover half the front driving band at the case mouth, so went straight to the power powder, Old Eynsford 3F, 70 grains of that gives 1250 fps, that's a pretty damn sold punch from the old round, i'll shoot it for groups tomorrow if i can get caught up a bit, i loaded near 100 rounds of that today, it was a blast.
bcelliott, Welcome, it is my pleasure and duty in the CRUSADE for truth. And I started a BPCR thread for that amazing .50-70 Govt. BPCR load by Sir Jerry.
Yep, latest ever snow with accumulation in KY last week, 4-20-2021. I can remember once a few flakes about Easter, earlier April, when I was in highschrool. Global warming might be letting up. Depends on what the sun does, I reckon, not us fleas on this dog.
Continuing with the 300-gr bullet in the .458 Winchester Magnum, a bit on barrel length with H4198 and 300-grainers tough enough to handle 2800 fps MV:
Diminishing returns noted after 78.0 grains of H4198 in my rifle, with 300-gr TSX-FB and 3.330" COL. Your mileage may vary.
Buy a donkey for the excellent work with the 250-gr Hornady. What was your barrel length and COL ?
Is not the .458-250-grainer called a Monoflex, like a GMX except with a softer tip so it can be used in lever actions too ?
Your data agrees well with Michael McCourry's CEB 250-grainer. In a 24" .458 WinMag he used 78.0 grains H4198 and got 2929 fps, no COL specified, but with his strain gauge he got a 52,500 PSI reading.long.
Very encouraging.
I have one box of the Hornady Monoflex 250-grainer. It has two cannelures and is 1.090" long. I would put another cannelure on it and load it with a 0.25" seating depth. That would give a COL of 3.340" not coincidentally. H4198 might be tops with that, but QuickLOAD says that H335 at 105% Load Ratio (compressed) -- 97.9% burn, and AA-5744 at about 93% LR (not compressed) -- 100% burn, can both beat H4198 at about 104% LR (compressed) -- 98.6% burn I want to try H4198 versus AA-5744. A usual powder for reduced loads might be a great powder for this maximum load.
QuickLOAD is notoriously inaccurate with the .458 Winchester Magnum predictions since it makes no allowance for throat effects. So I always take QuickLOAD with a truckLOAD of salt for the .458 WM, use it for relative comparisons, not specifics.
AA-1680 has proven a bit erratic for me in rifle loads, so I won't be doing that again.
AA-1680 has proven a bit erratic for me in rifle loads, so I won't be doing that again.[/quote]
Yep, same here. I hit 3000 fps from the 300 TSX but it was very erratic. I switched back to 82 grains of H4198 for 2927, 2920 and 2921 fps at 15' from Chrony. On Aug. 6/19 they shot into .788" @ 100 yards. No signs of excess pressure. Brass was Remington, WLRM primers and COL = 3.32" . Temp @ 59*F.
But I reduced that load again to 75 grains H4198 for 2751, 2766 and 2759 at 15' from Chrony; Oct 24/19. Brass was new Hornady, WLRM primers, 3.32" COL. Temp +3*C . That became my hunting load and shot v. well.
These were from my 24" Ruger No.1.
I like the 300 TSX but will try to find some 300 TTSX's as they should expand better at lower velocity.
Many thanks to Sir Ron for his continued and excellent work, as well to all who contribute.
I switched to the 300-gr TSX-FB because of your exploits with it, and now you are switching to the 300-gr TTSX ? OK. Let us both use either or both of them, what ever can be found in these pandemic times !
Load a little long at 3.390" COL: still fits and works through the magazine box of all my standard .458 WM bolt actions. First shots at 50 yards, and starting load was best load:
Center target in composite above, 50 yards :
Went home and loaded some more and came back to chronograph again and target at 100 yards and 300 yards:
5 shots at 300 yards landed on the bottom target of the stack, using center of scope reticle hold, then The Nikon SlugHunter BDC reticle was used for the sixth shot landing on the upper target of the stack:
Aimed at top target and hit bottom target:
Aimed at top target and hit top target:
300-yard gong:
Anyone desiring explosive expansion with a 300-gr bullet to rival the Sierra Pro-Hunter:
With that good info from beretzs on H4198 loads for the Hornady Monoflex 250-grainer, I will use COL of 3.340" crimped on a Canntool cannelure, starting with H4198 at 78.0 grains and go to 82.0 grains (COMPRESSED) and AA-5744 at 65.0 to 69.0 grains (NOT COMPRESSED) unless there is some funny business along the way. Will use Daisy the 24"-barreled Ruger No.1 .458 Win.Mag. That will be a total of 30 rounds, nice outing for Daisy.
Will do that when the weather, the stars, and the Old Ladies around here align to permit firing those full-bore, paper-patched 530-grainers with duplexed BP in Goldie the .45-2.6" SWT Ruger No. 1, the .458 WIN Twin. Hopefully same day for both, for the record.
Speaking of the record, here's one more review of another 300-grainer with H4198 before moving on to 250-grainers, new for me:
Great write up. I missed out on grabbing some 300 grain TTSX's awhile back, but I had good thoughts in mind for that bullet. I mainly just wanna goof around and thump some deer with the load, maybe a black bear if I could. I need to go back and rengage with the 250 Monoflex's though. Those were pretty easy shooting, even at 2900.
Since light-for-caliber bullets are being discussed for the GREAT .458 Win, I've gone on record as liking the 300 TSX. It's accurate and fast from my Ruger No.1, whether at about 2750 fps or +2900 fps. The advantage of the 300 with the poly tip is expansion as low as 1400 fps (I read that somewhere).
But here's another point of interest which I made mention of in 2011 in the second edition of my manual on the .458: According to NRA's HANDLOADING book circa 1981, "The WORKING chamber pressure for the .458 Winchester Magnum is COMMONLY limited to ABOUT 53,000 c.u.p. The established MAXIMUM product AVERAGE for FACTORY ammunition is 56,200 c.u.p." Highlights are mine.
Whether we multiply CUP by 1.18x for PSI (As per Accurate powder) or 1.13x , that would make a "within reasonable" maximum psi to be anywhere from 63,500 to 66, 200 psi - and max reloads from manuals are often far less than even 53,000 cup. Check the Winchester data as per Hodgdon at around 43, 000 to 44,000 cup.at factory levels of about 2040 - 2065 fps for the 500 - 510gr. So, I have few qualms over loading the .458 to any psi that appears safe based on common visual and physical effects on the brass and ejection. It's very difficult to overload the GREAT .458 with suitable powders -- that's one advantage of the relatively short case.
As someone pointed out a long time ago re the single-shot Ruger in .45-70: "You'll reach a point in recoil that limits your choice of loads long before you reach the limit of the Ruger's true capability". In a similar way, that equally applies to the wonderful .458 Winchester Magnum.
I plan to give the 250 Monoflexs a decent work out soon when I get back home. I’d bet those will let the stuffing outta a buck or bear. Pretty nice on the recoil side as well.
Yes, that 250-grain Monoflex at about 3000 fps might be useful, and variety is the spice of life, eh? Certainly would be nice on the shoulder even at 3000 fps, especially if it can be done with less powder weight like with AA-5744. That would be a different kind of "reduced load" at 4996 ft-lbs of KE. At Ammoguide.com there is a compressed load with 80.0 grains of ADI AR-2207 (same as H4198) that made the Monoflex go 3010 fps from a 24" barrel. COL was not reported there. That would be 5029 ft-lbs KE.
For inspiration:
Use a Lee Factory Crimp die, with or without the extra cannelure made by a canneluring hand tool. At 3.340" COL, the H4198 would not be much compressed. The AA-5744 will not be at all compressed yet full enough to avoid temptation to use a filler.
That's a great idea. I will try seating them out a bit and see what happens. I was easily into the 2900's with my 22" barrel. You're motivating me to get the rifle up and shooting RC!
Adding 43 fps for the extra 2" of barrel with H4198 and the Monoflex, beretzs is knocking on the door of 3000 fps with 79.0 grains in a 24" barrel.
Getting myself motivated too. It would really be nice to hunt deer with that little rubbery-tipped monometal .458 bullet. It will work in a tubular magazine too, for a .45-70 Gov't. lever action, loaded short on that first factory cannelure. In bear country keep some heavier-duty rounds in the magazine too for close-range use. Bob's latest blog, "BEAR Defense Weapons -- P1" has got me thinking on that. My comment there to him:
Bob has mentioned the 480-gr DGX "dual use" slugs before. They were designed to work in the no-throat .450 Nitro Express, only .450" diameter forward of their cannelure, .458" diameter below the cannelure. That makes them ideal in a .45-70 Gov't. standard chamber too. I hope he mentions them again in "BEAR Defense Weapons -- P2."
The hunter in bear country could do a lot worse than a .458-caliber, 480-grain Hornady DGX. Whether in a no-throat .45-70Gov't. , crimped on the factory cannelure and run through a Winchester 1886 short rifle, lever action, or loaded a little longer than SAAMI in a .458 Winchester Magnum. 1300 fps rapid fire in the former, or 2300 fps in the latter. The former would work like solids for deep penetration with a bloody big hole. The latter would make bloodier big holes almost as deep. That "FN soft" bullet might actually expand if going 1000 fps faster.
The next time I hunt Kodiak Island I will be packing a .458 WM bolt action on the hillsides, and sleeping with it AND a shorter .45-70 Gov't. which will be handier in the tent, especially on moonless nights when a big bear comes to press his nose against my tent. Last time that happened to me I had to start shooting inside the tent with a 26"-barreled .340 Wby Fibermark. It was a bit awkward.
Yes, recently I went on record as suggesting the three manufactured bullets I'd have on my bullet shelves if limited to that. And the 480gr DGX (Dangerous Game Expanding) from Hornady would be the heavy. It shoots well from my current Ruger No.1 in .458 at 2353 fps (5900 ft-lbs) using 82 grains of H4895, WLRM primers, Rem brass, and 3.585" COL (corrected to MV). Temp @ 21C/70F.
From my former Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT it completely penetrated the test media at 15', hitting a ledge behind and leaving a .458" imprint. The bullet was never found. MV was a reduced load at 1780 fps to simulate impact speed at about 1700 fps on a tough animal. If fired from the LT at about 2200 fps, that would be a range to animal of approximately 175 yards. With its flat tip, I've no doubt as to its devastating ability on anything. Those results compared to a 500gr GS puts it in very good light compared to the 500gr Speer which was leaving the muzzle at 1750 fps, and penetrated 6.5" while retaining only 62% of its weight at 310 grains. The 480 DGX had penetrated 15" when it made exit from the second box and hit the ledge about 6" behind it.
On black bear from my Ruger .458 Win, I'd probably slow it to about 2100 fps over approximately 72 -73 grains of H4895. That would still give a useful range to 150 - 160 yards. I've not yet run those numbers in a ballistics program, but will do that and get back here, but I think they're close enough. It would be rare in my experience to shoot a bear at over 100 yards, but that always a possibility.
I'm looking forward to getting out for some scouting, and the .458 will get it's share of that as soon as I regain strength in my arms, wrists and hands from the debilitating effects of arthritis. While activity is the best medicine, I've been given a prescription of little white pills that will kick in slowly, I'm told.
Well, I did not want to come back and bad mouth the 458. I now have more results, both good and bad. Nothing to brag about. Not complaining either.
I shot 300 gr Hornady HP with 56 gr RE-7. At 50 yards, 2.6" groups of 5 and 100 yards not even waste my time shooting 5 for a group. Bad.
Switched to 325gr FTX with 58 gr RE-7. AT 50 yards 6 shots under and inch (two sheets of paper). Moved out to 100 and got 3 into an acceptable 2" pattern. Considering using an old 3x Leupold heavy crosshair, not best for aiming at 100 yards. Good and appropriate scope for the gun. But not for shooting match accuracy. That was never the goal. Good.
The FTX have a reputation for breaking up on deer, which is fine, I hope to blow up some smaller critters.
I did not keep all the paper, but; since the forum is now hosting pics:
here is my 550 gr .458 cast bullet shot in a earth burm at 200 yards it was shot at 1560 fps out of my safari express winchester the load was 40 gr of accurate 5744
by the way riflecranck I tried my inflated air bag has a recoil pad worked great but it deflated each time must of had a defective valve
I have a past but the air bag was much more effective will try to fix the valve its a air bag use in construction to level door of window when installing them it has a small pump to increase the pressure I inflated it about 1/2 inch and it really took up the recoil when pressing the rifle agains my shoulder it conform to it perfectly will see what happens
Sir Bob, Good riddance to Old Arthur's visitation upon you very soon !
Originally Posted by CZ550
... Yes, recently I went on record as suggesting the three manufactured bullets I'd have on my bullet shelves if limited to that. And the 480gr DGX (Dangerous Game Expanding) from Hornady would be the heavy. It shoots well from my current Ruger No.1 in .458 at 2353 fps (5900 ft-lbs) using 82 grains of H4895, WLRM primers, Rem brass, and 3.585" COL (corrected to MV). Temp @ 21C/70F ... Bob www.bigbores.ca
That is a great load to be sure, for the .458 WM+, bolt action or single shot. My findings have always agreed closely with Bob's. Even a SAAMI .458 WM restriction of 3.340" COL and way less than .458 Lott pressure max allows the 480-gr DGX to get well over 2200 fps in a 24" barrel, and that is plenty for any big game needing a soft point. The 480-gr DGS might be needed only if elephant are on the menu.
The shop mule used to assess loads to be used in sexier rifles:
That looks to be a superb load with the 550-gr WFNGC. What alloy is your bullet metal ?
Nice work with the pneumatic recoil reducer too. I have two PAST pads of yore, a thin one and a thicker "Magnum" pad in shoulder harnesses. My little block of high-density foam rubber about 1.75" thick (cut from a seat cushion) works much better at the bench, and it stays at the bench so I do not walk around wearing a sissy pad for all to see at the public range.
will have to try this high density foam rubber has recoil pad my alloy is wheel weigh air cooled lube is carnoba red superb accuracy. 100 yards one to one and a half 200 yards 2 to 3 inch what I have noticed the wind play with my bullet I shot a group then the group move about 2 inches to the right 2 good group but 2 inches apart will start cranking it up a bit every weeks to get used to the recoil
That looks to be a superb load with the 550-gr WFNGC. What alloy is your bullet metal ?
Nice work with the pneumatic recoil reducer too. I have two PAST pads of yore, a thin one and a thicker "Magnum" pad in shoulder harnesses. My little block of high-density foam rubber about 1.75" thick (cut from a seat cushion) works much better at the bench, and it stays at the bench so I do not walk around wearing a sissy pad for all to see at the public range.
If i could only find a couple pounds of AA-2230 i could load up the "Brass In Waiting" with those fine 450gr TSX's Sir Ron graciously sent me, 2450 fps Buzzsaws waiting for meat!
Buy a donkey to you too, Sir Jerry. You and Bill Bagwell have taught me a lot betwixt you. I have been farming my no-cattle, all-hat ranch too much lately, barely able to keep the weeds mowed due to so much rain. Soon I will make a day of it, home on the range, where the BP and the smokeless play. Paper-patched 530-grainer in the .45-2.6" SWT with BP and Monometal 250-grainer in the .458 WM with smokeless.
LOL, Nice Sir Ron, as the river reeds gave way to the wind last Oct 9th in the Mbarangandu Game Reserve, Tanzania i let loose a 750gr TSX at a sight regulating 2076 fps into an old river Dagga Boy at 16 yards from a 577 double, i saw and heard the pain that buzzsaw caused the old beast as it entered his left last rib at a hard quarter away, he hit the sand and began his death bellow before i could get the sight back on him quickly moving to my left for a solid through both shoulders.
I have no doubt the 450gr TSX at 2450 fps would produce the same from the Great 458 Win Mag+............with the added bonus of three rounds held quickly in reserve.
Sir Bob, Good riddance to Old Arthur's visitation upon you very soon !
Originally Posted by CZ550
... Yes, recently I went on record as suggesting the three manufactured bullets I'd have on my bullet shelves if limited to that. And the 480gr DGX (Dangerous Game Expanding) from Hornady would be the heavy. It shoots well from my current Ruger No.1 in .458 at 2353 fps (5900 ft-lbs) using 82 grains of H4895, WLRM primers, Rem brass, and 3.585" COL (corrected to MV). Temp @ 21C/70F ... Bob www.bigbores.ca
That is a great load to be sure, for the .458 WM+, bolt action or single shot. My findings have always agreed closely with Bob's. Even a SAAMI .458 WM restriction of 3.340" COL and way less than .458 Lott pressure max allows the 480-gr DGX to get well over 2200 fps in a 24" barrel, and that is plenty for any big game needing a soft point. The 480-gr DGS might be needed only if elephant are on the menu.
The shop mule used to assess loads to be used in sexier rifles:
Sir Ron;
Thanks for your well wishes, that seems to be working! Also, I took your advice to include the 480 DGX as good moose or bear medicine at close range in my blog yesterday, which I would have done out of conviction anyway -- and probably not at max MV.
I once shot a good bear frontally (actually I shot three in a row that way over three seasons) using a hardcast 465gr at 70 yards. That bullet has the exact diameter meplat as the 480 DGX. It left the muzzle of a single-shot NEF .45-70 at 1900 fps and that bear dropped so fast in tall grass that I lost sight of it when the rifle came out of recoil. The heart was jello and the bullet never found, nor any piece thereof. I'd consider the 480 DGX more of the same. It would never need 2350 fps for anything, except possibly for range purposes -- at least not anything soft skinned this side of 200 yards.
LOL, Nice Sir Ron, as the river reeds gave way to the wind last Oct 9th in the Mbarangandu Game Reserve, Tanzania i let loose a 750gr TSX at a sight regulating 2076 fps into an old river Dagga Boy at 16 yards from a 577 double, i saw and heard the pain that buzzsaw caused the old beast as it entered his left last rib at a hard quarter away, he hit the sand and began his death bellow before i could get the sight back on him quickly moving to my left for a solid through both shoulders.
I have no doubt the 450gr TSX at 2450 fps would produce the same from the Great 458 Win Mag+............with the added bonus of three rounds held quickly in reserve.
No doubt. Perfect. Be careful with those 500-gr TBSS at 2350 fps if herd shooting and you do not want to pay for two with only one shot. I once bagged a cape buffalo using a .500 Mbogo. One shot killed it at about 75 yards, broke the onside left humerus (stoutest bone in the buffalo) and passed through the heart, did not exit.
The second shot at a bull on that hunt in Tanzania was on a hairbrained command from the PH for me to shoot a bull when he ran through an opening 150 yards away,
while I was perched on the side of a termite mound with wobbly-twig shooting sticks that collapsed as I shot. Thus I was caught off balance twice in that incident. First for undertaking it at all. One drop of blood was found, believed to have come from a buttock graze wound on the bull.
I felt bad then, but hey, it saved me another +$5000 taxidermy charge and someone else was picking up the tab for the B-Team PH and trophy fees. Sometimes it would be better to ignore a suggestion from a PH, especially if you are paying him.
My first cape buffalo in Botswana also bucked like a rodeo bull when hit through the heart and the onside, left humerus at 50 yards with a .416 Rigby. He launched straight up on three unbroken legs also.
A termite mound in Botswana, where no shooting sticks were set upon the slope:
That was a 380-gr GSC FN solid at 2506 fps MV that exited and probably passed through several leadwood tree trunks after that. The Tanzanian bull was taken with a .510-cal., 450-gr GSC HV (soft) throttled back to 2650 fps MV instead of +2800 fps, because it shot 0.75 MOA at the slower velocity instead of 1.5 MOA at top end. Thus, not entirely because I am a recoil wimp.
The .458-caliber 450-grain TSX at 2450 fps would be the best insurance policy, 6,000 ft-lbs is plenty ! Most likely to kill one bull with one shot and not wound any other fauna and flora. And such a trim and handy package is a .458 Winchester Magnum M70 !
I once shot a good bear frontally (actually I shot three in a row that way over three seasons) using a hardcast 465gr at 70 yards. That bullet has the exact diameter meplat as the 480 DGX. It left the muzzle of a single-shot NEF .45-70 at 1900 fps and that bear dropped so fast in tall grass that I lost sight of it when the rifle came out of recoil. The heart was jello and the bullet never found, nor any piece thereof. I'd consider the 480 DGX more of the same. It would never need 2350 fps for anything, except possibly for range purposes -- at least not anything soft skinned this side of 200 yards. Bob www.bigbores.ca
Good to hear you are on the mend, Sir Bob. Your experience proves the teaching of Saint Bagwell that softcast lead .458"/ 480-grain FN at 1300 fps MV with a BPCR will deliver the mail. Either 66 grains of FFFg GOEX in a .45-70 or, for the smokeless crowd, just 38.5 grains of IMR-3031. He recommended both loads. 480-grainer of harder alloy at faster velocity, within reason: What is not to like ? That 480-grain DGX will work in either no-throat .45-70 lever action or .458 Winchester Magnum. Perfect for all single shots at whatever COL you like. Do your part and one shot is all you will need anyway.
Ron, Love the details and the great pictures as always, and appreciate all the work it takes to produce such quality. Glad to see the body of knowledge about the great and mighty 458WM and cast bullets grow. Of all the myths perpetuated towards the 458WM, none was greater than "it's not a good cast bullet cartridge." Not true of course. All Cast shooting contains a fair bit of Magic to make things work, just go read the BPCR guys process and trials to get through a match and season of shooting. Hunting with a 458WM and Cast in my opinion is a breeze to accomplish. First of all, we don't need 0.3 MOA to kill a whitetail or anything else. A nice round group of one's loads that land in the same place in a sized equal to or smaller than the kill zone at the distance you want to shoot is all we need. Just like all shooting, one's group at 50 or 100 does not run linear as distance continues. Question is; "does my rifle and load produce a first and second shot ability to land in the kill zone at the range I want to shoot?" If yes is the answer then we are good to go. Mr. Sharpsguy was an exceptional shooter first and foremost and his equipment was built and tested to maximize his God given talent. His results were first the result of his talent and then his equipment. Your notes above on Cast bullets is a good guide for anyone and any 458WM. I would add, "use a good flat meplat" on hunting loads to reduce or eliminate tumbling and increase penetration and get after them. From 405 grains on up as far as your barrel will stabilize in both air and game is all you have to worry about. A good BIG flat Meplat does a lot to help both causes. Best regards sir, Fury01
Sir Dennis, you have always been a stalwart in the Crusade for Truth. Buy a donkey for the flowers. Doodling the pictures allows me to see things I might miss and clarifies my thinking. Allow me to comment on your redletter words, well said:
Of all the myths perpetuated towards the 458WM, none was greater than "it's not a good cast bullet cartridge." Not true of course. All Cast shooting contains a fair bit of Magic to make things work, just go read the BPCR guys process and trials to get through a match and season of shooting.
Sharpsguy, Saint Bagwell, called it finding the correct duck feather with which to tickle the load. Smokeless loads with cast bullets are easier to tickle with a greater variety of bullets, alloys, and velocities in a .458 WM, not to mention the huge array of powders ! Getting paper-patched, soft lead alloys to work properly in the .458 WM throat is a worthy endeavor with BP, to turn the .458 WM into a BPCR. Here is what I think about it:
In a no-throat BPCR, making the patched bullet diameter 0.001" smaller than bore diameter allows it to work as a bore rider over its entire length, allows longest possible seating. But the soft alloy, ideally no harder than 1:20 tin/lead, about BHN 10, allows it to bump up with the explosive smack of BP on its rear end, getting it started into the rifling with some obturation into the grooves. The obturation continues to increase over about the first 10 inches of rifling travel and then is done. Smokeless does not smack, due to a more gradual, progressive burn as the bullet travels down the barrel. The wide-based leade of the .458 WM throat allows no initial resistance to a bore-riding, paper-patched bullet that is just starting to obturate. This reduces the ability of even BP to swell the bullet's diameter any further, so it skids on the rifling, gas blows by, the bullet gets inadequate spin and keyholes. Starting with a paper-patched bullet of groove diameter allows a better start at obturation, and a better start allows better final obturation of the bullet during that first 10 inches of travel in the barrel.
Hunting with a 458WM and Cast in my opinion is a breeze to accomplish. First of all, we don't need 0.3 MOA to kill a whitetail or anything else. A nice round group of one's loads that land in the same place in a sized equal to or smaller than the kill zone at the distance you want to shoot is all we need. Just like all shooting, one's group at 50 or 100 does not run linear as distance continues. Question is; "does my rifle and load produce a first and second shot ability to land in the kill zone at the range I want to shoot?" If yes is the answer then we are good to go. Mr. Sharpsguy was an exceptional shooter first and foremost and his equipment was built and tested to maximize his God given talent. His results were first the result of his talent and then his equipment. Your notes above on Cast bullets is a good guide for anyone and any 458WM. I would add, "use a good flat meplat" on hunting loads to reduce or eliminate tumbling and increase penetration and get after them. From 405 grains on up as far as your barrel will stabilize in both air and game is all you have to worry about. A good BIG flat Meplat does a lot to help both causes. Best regards sir, Fury01
AMEN ! FN for clean kills. Rounded and pointy for punching paper and steel or wounding at longer ranges, unless you are gifted enough to elevate and hold into the wind like Saint Bagwell. He could do it all with an FN .458/ 480-grainer softcast (50:50 WW/Pb) at 1300 fps. Trapdoor ballistics !
Latest monometal-smokeless adventure coming up for the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum:
Above is a casual gathering of Knights of the Crusade for Truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum. Lottites are the "enemies." What are we ? Barbarians ?
Sir Ron, fantastic pics and Buffalo, no place on earth like Africa, do you think you;ll ever make it back over for more hunting?
A Big 10-Roger on the 500gr TBSS's and herd animals, i bet with that hard bronze cap that thing is a near indestructible missile, especially at 2350 fps from the Great 458 Win Mag+, have no doubts on anything with the 450gr TSX short of Ele head shots, it would most likely sheer the petals becoming a solid and work there too.
I would love to hunt Africa again if I could do it with less of the sissy luxury stuff and coddling doled out to the princes of the world. Elephant with a .458 Winchester Magnum would be the mustard on my biscuit. But there is so much more in North America on the bucket list that I may not make it. If I ever get shed of being caretaker to the elderly I am heading back to Alaska. My first official duty when I reported there in 1985 was to go notify a family of the death of an Airman. He died of hypothermia in 40*F rainy weather, did the paradoxical undressing thing, was found naked on Naked Island where he was hunting deer. Deer hunting where the brown bears live is always fun. I would of course take good rain gear, and a .458 Winchester Magnum would be my deer rifle. Solo for my third hunt on Kodiak would be the most fun possible with my pants on. I once did a solo, fly-in caribou hunt for 5 days on the Alaska Peninsula in November, and flew home with 3 caribou. I will not do the Timothy Treadwell trick until threatened with a nursing home.
Paul Matthews in his book THE PAPER JACKET, said of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum: " ... about as perfect a production chamber as there is for cast bullets, whether they are grooved lubricated, or paper patched." The 1:14 inch twist was not noted to be detrimental with paper-patched 500-grain bullets in the .458 WM.
An interesting bit from Matthews was that his Ruger rifles with factory barrels had bore diameters of 0.4515". He found that if he used slick bullets of 0.4520" diameter, just .0005" greater than bore diameter, in his factory Ruger rifles, then he could use bullets of any weight or hardness when these were paper-patched to 0.459" diameter. And he claimed they worked with charges of either BP or smokeless as slow as IMR-3031 !
Straight BP charge of 90 gr FFFg with 500-gr PP bullet fouled the throat of a .458 WinMag with one shot. It was so bad that a second paper-patched round cannot be chambered, according to Matthews. Duplex loading of FFg plus SR-4759 eliminated any throat-fouling problems. Of course, adding a lube cookie with wax paper single layer on both sides of the wad will allow throat fouling to be cleared by wiping after each shot.
Mathews also says he has good results sizing down .459"-diameter grease-grooved bullets to 0.452" diameter (using a push-through Corbin sizer die) and then paper-patching them back up to .459" diameter !
Holy cow ! I have a .452" Lee bullet sizer ! A Lyman 457121 PH cast in soft alloy comes out of my mould at about 0.4565" diameter and weighs about 479 grains. Surely that would not be a problem to size down to .452" and then paper-patch it.
I need to be able to make my own "slicks" for paper patching. I have moulds for sub-bore slicks for use in the no-throaters of .40-cal. and .45-cal. BPCR persuasions. I need a mould for the full-bore slicks needed in the .458 Winchester Magnum throats (0.450" to .452" naked slick), or I will be sizing sown the PH to .452" for paper patching in the .458 WM+BPCR.
Serviceable 250-grain Monoflex and TSX loads at +3000 fps have been found, but first, this duck feather tickle of a paper patch load in a .458 Winchester Magnum throat atop .45-2.6" brass, with training wheels:
There were little specs of lube and BP on the chronograph at the end of the day, even with 7-yard distance from muzzle. The BP shooting was done late, with sun angle bad, clouds had rolled in, and even turning on the accessory lights did not help.
Did I mention that there was zero lead fouling with the full-bore paper-patched load in the .45-2.6" Sharps Winchester-Throated ? Also, the trace of BP fouling in the bore required only humidity from my blow tube and a couple of patches to make it vanish. Dry patches then came out white. I used two olive oil soaked patches after that to prep her for a few days rest. Those came out of the barrel looking like when they went in. Dry patching and a fouling shot (or ten) might get Goldie Ruger-Pedersoli ready for long range.
Now for Ms. Daisy Ruger, 9 pounds naked, add 1 pound and 3 ounces for the Nikon scope and Ruger rings, 5 ounces more for the LOP adjuster and ammo carrier, so, 10.5 pounds without ammo. She has standard SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambered barrel with 1:14" twist, 0.459" groove diameter and 24" long:
250-gr Hornady Monoflex in .458 WM roughly zeroed at 50-yards for MV 3075 fps, it shoots about 2" lower when MV is 2725 fps, with same scope settings, same 50-yard range.
250-gr Monoflex in 24" Ruger No. 1 .458 WM, 67*F, there were zero chronograph errors with the smokeless loads:
H4198, 3.340" COL, F215 primer, Hornady brass:
At 3001 fps to 3075 fps MV, with BC of 0.175, 7-yard losses are huge, respectively 39 fps and 40 fps.
78.0 gr loads wasted for fouling and getting on paper, started off shooting nearly a foot high at 50 yards.
79.0 gr H4198 >>> 3001 fps MV (2962 fps instrumental): MOST UNIFORM LOAD (with either H4198 or AA-5744), extreme spread 8 fps for 3 shots.
82.0 gr H4198 >>> 3075 fps MV (3035 fps instrumental): Best accuracy with H4198, 1.16 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards.
AA-5744, 3.340" COL, F215 primer, Hornady brass:
65.0 gr AA-5744 >>> 2725 fps MV (2688 fps instrumental): MOST ACCURATE LOAD (with either H4198 or AA-5744), 0.63 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards.
69.0 gr AA-5744 >>> 3003 fps MV (2964 fps instrumental): Accuracy for 3 shots at 50 yards: 1.24 MOA
The sample with the other bullet and the midrange powder charges:
250-gr TSX FNFB, COL 3.170", F215 primer, Hornady brass, in 24" Ruger No. 1 .458 WM, 67*F, BC 0.136 !
H4198 80.0 gr >>> 3017 fps MV (2966 fps instrumental, 51 fps 7-yard loss): Accuracy for 3 shots at 50 yards: 1.10 MOA
AA5744 67.0 gr >>> 2947 fps MV (2897 fps instrumental, 50 fps 7-yard loss): Accuracy for 3 shots at 50 yards: 1.37 MOA
I adjusted the scope to zero at 50 yards with the Monoflex @ 2725 fps MV, loaded with AA-5744 charge of 65.0 grains. Will load the rest of the box of bullets for final zero after tinkering with the BDC reticle if Nikon Spot On still works online ! That will be a pleasant and handy load for squirrels and such. My schnabel bauble:
The data bertzs supplied was assumed to be from 5-yard chronograph and corrected to MV. Close enough for Crusade work. To compare his 22 " barrel to my 24" barrel results, I also added 40 fps to his H4198 velocities for the Monoflex. Again, close enough for Crusade work. If the COL he used was shorter than 3.340" he might gain a little pressure and a few fps velocity advantage for same powder charge versus the longer COL, but only a very little, due to the SAAMI .458 WM throat efficiencies, or is that just magic ? Accuracy might be a little better with a longer COL, maybe not, since the SAAMI .458 WM throat is a great accurizer with all COLs possible. I got out my pencil and graph paper again:
Enlarged for hopefully easier reading for old eyes:
Very close agreement. Another big buy a donkey to beretzs for saving me some components.
Maybe the diminishing returns above 80 grains of H4198 are due to heavy compression of that powder ? Even there I bet pressures are less than those of the .458 Lott MAP.
The 250-gr MonoFlex is a short range bullet due to rapid velocity loss and wind drift, i.e. low BC. Speeding it up from 2725 fps to 3075 fps gains only about 50 to 60 yards of practicality. It is very pleasant in a .458 WinMag at lower velocity and loses velocity less rapidly. Using a 90% LR net fill with AA-5744 for 2725 fps MV makes a lot of sense to me, especially in Daisy, since she likes that load best.
With the Nikon set on 5X, the bottom aiming point on the 4-circle BDC reticle is for the 600-yard gong, which would make for excellent windage practice. The central cross hair then hits 3" high at 100 and dead-on at 208 yards, for point and shoot a deer-sized critter to 244 yards. 1-1/3" high at 50 yards, 3" high at 100 yards, and maximum ordinate is just 3.2" high at 122 yards. That could be useful in the woods and pastures even with a 2.5X Leupold. That point-and-shoot range would be a good limit for this fun little bullet for pasture shooting. The Nikon BDC has a 300-yard aiming point also, on 5X and 7X settings, which surely would be my limit for meat. At 300 yards the bullet's velocity is 1426 fps, KE = 1128 ft-lbs, and 10 mph crosswind drift is nearly 2 feet. DICEY !
Having finally done the 250-gr Monoflex for a special kind of "reduced load" gives me a greater appreciation of the .458 Winchester Magnum. With +4000 ft-lbs at the muzzle, light recoil, and point-and-shoot range to 244 yards, even such a light monometal bullet would be good when protected from the wind, for deer shooting from tree stands, still hunting the timber, hog culling, and even sneaky black bear over bait.
Speaking of the devil, Bob's blog has some good sneaky black bear stories, latest edition yesterday:
I would not have thought it possible to increase my appreciation of the MAGNIFICENCE of the .458 Winchester Magnum, but there it is. Jacketed/monometal and hardcast bullets galore, from 250 grains to 600 grains. Really no need for more or less bullet weight, except for birdshot, snake and rat loads. But the latter are the domain of the .458 Lott, which King .458 Winchester Magnum laughingly concedes to the Lottites. Where have all the Lottites gone ? Took their toys and went home ?
What next for the .458 Winchester Magnum ? A special heavyweight VLD .458 bullet for subsonic use with a suppressor on the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum ? Maybe. For sure: Make the standard SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum into the full equivalent of the .45-110 Sharps with a 550-grain paper-patched Quigley load, of course. But I get to use a scope and duplexed BP for a super-clean, paper patch shooter to try for those 700-yard bucket shots.
Lessee ... 74 grains of GOEX FFg started by 12 grains of IMR-SR4759 from my 8-pound jug: That ought to be about a 110-grain BP equivalent. And here is the mould from ACCURATE MOLDS, so I do not have to depend on BACO or Sir Jerry to supply the slicks:
Will request a tolerance of +.002"/-.000" on that 0.450"-diameter slick, supposed to be 550 grains in clip-on WW, should be about same in 1:20 alloy. After patching and Rooster Jacket Lube, the bullets can be run through a .458" or .459" LEE push-through sizer as needed. I've got a patch paper (recommended by Saint Bagwell, found at Office Depot) that is a little thicker than the 9-pound onionskin, if needed. I'll get a 2-cavity mould, leave one cavity unmarked, and put a dimple on the ogive in the other cavity. Then I will have two batches of slicks from that mould, cast in 1:20 tin-lead. One batch for indexed loading in the single shot .458 WM Ruger No. 1, the other batch for non-indexed loading in the bolt actions. COL of 3.580" will be perfect in the Winchester M70, CZ 550 Magnum AND Ruger No. 1, .458 Winchester Magnum.
Ought to be about 1400 fps MV from a 23" .458 WM barrel. Except for the lube goobers on the chronographs, it's all good ! YEEHA!
"MODERN SMOKELESS PAPER PATCHING" by Marty Longbottom is an article in the 19th edition (2015) of HANDLOADER'S DIGEST, pp. 170-183. Shocking ! Use smokeless powder entirely and forget the lube cookies needed to keep BP fouling under control. No more lube goobers on the chronographs ?
He sizes the grooved bullets down by as much as .007" and he even likes gas checked bullets done that way !
Removing lube from commercially purchased bullets: Boil them in water, drain and rinse, repeat, until they are squeeky clean. Great tip. You can use Blue Dawn dish detergent as the lube for sizing the over-sized grooved bullet to desired pre-patching diameter. Then boil the soap off of them too.
Loaded with smokeless, use 100% charge of slow powder or use filler for light compression of lesser charge of smokeless powder.
Naked bullet should be bore size +.001 to +.0015". Patched diameter should be groove size + .001" to +.003".
Alloy should be 20:1 or softer. Velocity goal is 1800 fps to 2000 fps MV. According to Marty.
Just another way to have some good clean fun like taking your sister to the prom. One can still get down and dirty with BP in the .458 Winchester Magnum whenever. Maybe Marty's smokeless parameters for alloy and bullet sizing would work even better with BP in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat ?
One special thing I learned from Marty: After the initial drying of the water-wetted patchs rolled onto the bullet, lube the paper jackets and size the bullets. Keep any bullet lube off of the base of the paper patch, but lube the sides well. Then push them through the sizer die after another period of drying of the paper jacket lube. Let them dry base up, nose down, in a loading block. I suppose lube on the bullet base might encourage remnants of the shredded paper to stick to base of bullet ? He uses bees wax and vaseline mixtures for his lube, applied however he does it, not well explained. Maybe just finger smearing or rolling ? I dunnoh.
Duck feathers !!! I am thinking a 50:50 mixture of Rooster Jacket Lube and water, applied with a little paint brush to sides of paper jacket only. Let that dry nose down in loading block. Size the paper-patched bullet and put it back in a loading block nose down until ready to seat in the cartridge case.
The Bill Bagwell Memorial Load for the .458 Winchester Magnum:
Lyman 457121 "Parker Hale" FN plain base cast in 50:50 WW/Pb is about .4565" diameter and 479.2 grains.
This can be sized down and paper-patched up for use with either duplexed GOEX FFg or smokeless, both of which should make for some good clean fun with the SAAMI .458 WM at 3.340" maximum COL.
Say, did you pull the trigger on the 340 when that bear tried to poke it's nose through the tent wall? I was picturing that in my mind and thought what a "blast" that would be! When I shot the moose with mine the blast was dissipated in the open clear cut, never noticing it.
But years ago when I shot my first bear with a .458 WIN (Ruger 77) with a 22" barrel, the blast permanently damaged my right ear drum. I fired a shot off before arriving at the site and noticed no effect on my ears. I'm now almost totally deaf in my right ear (the one closest to the muzzle, and swore off ever having another 22" .458 Win). However, the 22" Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT was never an issue, so I figured another 22", .458 might be acceptable since the .45-70 LT's muzzle was closer still to my right ear not having an action. I enquired at the time (on AR) as to potential causes and I believe you were the only one who responded, suggesting I may have had an infection in the ear. I didn't know you were a medic. But the truth is/was that I did have a throat infection that affected my speech.
So the long and short of that is I'd gladly have another Ruger 77. The current Ruger No.1 in .458 is 40" overall and has the Mag-na-ports, which makes muzzle blast closer still to my right ear than the Ruger bolt action 77. I'm not offended by the No.1 in wooded areas but I do use ear plugs.
Question: I have used muffs both at the range and in hunting with the built-in audio system, permitting good hearing in hunting (In fact, too good as in walking I hear crunching sounds under my feet, and carpenter ants in a tree next to me sounded like a woodsman with a chain saw!) but in shooting at the range they do adequately block muzzle blast. However, for hunting purposes I've stopped using them as they amplify all sounds too much and become uncomfortable.
So, any recommendations as to those electronic ear plugs that seem to work well and yet are unobtrusive?
And, I should note that by simply turning down the volume on the ear muffs doesn't work either as then they don't pick up any sounds more than a few metres away!
Welcome. My pleasure to be sure. A week is greatly diminished without another Bob Blog Installment.
Say, did you pull the trigger on the 340 when that bear tried to poke it's nose through the tent wall? I was picturing that in my mind and thought what a "blast" that would be! When I shot the moose with mine the blast was dissipated in the open clear cut, never noticing it.
I rolled away from the side of the tent that the Kodiak bear was pressing on and toward the tent flap, stuck the muzzle of the 340 Wby through the tent flap and fired. The earth moved as he fled. I suppose the noise and muzzle flash both were not to his liking on a moonless night. I had a flashlight on his 8-footer's butt as he vanished into the tall grass of Spiridon Moor, beside Spiridon Lake, beside Spiridon Bay, on the northwest by west side of Kodiak.
But years ago when I shot my first bear with a .458 WIN (Ruger 77) with a 22" barrel, the blast permanently damaged my right ear drum. I fired a shot off before arriving at the site and noticed no effect on my ears. I'm now almost totally deaf in my right ear (the one closest to the muzzle, and swore off ever having another 22" .458 Win). However, the 22" Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT was never an issue, so I figured another 22", .458 might be acceptable since the .45-70 LT's muzzle was closer still to my right ear not having an action. I enquired at the time (on AR) as to potential causes and I believe you were the only one who responded, suggesting I may have had an infection in the ear. I didn't know you were a medic. But the truth is/was that I did have a throat infection that affected my speech.
That is why a cold, allergies, sorethroat can ground a pilot. A little inflamation or swelling around the eustachian tube opening in the throat can make the eardrum prone to rupture with pressure changes, barotrauma, muzzle blasts, altitude changes, when pressures on both sides of the eardrum cannot rapidly equalize. You must have been as much or more a victim of your throat condition as of the muzzleblast.
So the long and short of that is I'd gladly have another Ruger 77. The current Ruger No.1 in .458 is 40" overall and has the Mag-na-ports, which makes muzzle blast closer still to my right ear than the Ruger bolt action 77. I'm not offended by the No.1 in wooded areas but I do use ear plugs.
Question: I have used muffs both at the range and in hunting with the built-in audio system, permitting good hearing in hunting (In fact, too good as in walking I hear crunching sounds under my feet, and carpenter ants in a tree next to me sounded like a woodsman with a chain saw!) but in shooting at the range they do adequately block muzzle blast. However, for hunting purposes I've stopped using them as they amplify all sounds too much and become uncomfortable.
I have a set of electronic muffs too, and think about them same as you.
So, any recommendations as to those electronic ear plugs that seem to work well and yet are unobtrusive?
Riflecrank says: I have not tried the in-the-ear-canal electronic aid/hearing protection method. I really ought to. I do not have any professional opinion to offer on them. Will have to "look" into that, for others' experience and opinions. First I need to try a different method, the suppressor/silencer, on the .458 WM. Dang if all the hunting shows haven't started showing rifles like the 28 Nosler with big, long cans on the muzzles, muzzle mufflers.
It took fingerprinting and 7 months for the ATFE, FBI, local Sheriff and whomever to provide the $200 tax stamp that must accompany a suppressor at all times. Of course it should not be used with paper-patched and gas-checked cast bullets, BP, fillers and sabots. Probably even .461" hardcast with PC paint should be avoided. Oh well, I'll have to shoot smokeless and jacketed/monometal for Bushwhacker 46-ing. Monoflex 250-grainer for a supersonic crack. Subsonic heavies at close range, how slow can I go in a 1:14" twist ? Ah ha ! An 18" barrel will help slow it down without a too-empty case. Finally, a use for a short barrel.
This public domain book was published over a century ago and preached by Saint Bagwell over a century after publication. The passage that Saint Bagwell alluded to is on pages 81 and 82 of this nearly 400-page text, profusely illustrated with gritty black&white photos of recovered bullets and targets and personages and equipment and drawings and graphs and equations, etc.:
That right there is self-deprecatingly hilarious ! Dr. Mann added his "mite" to the world of scientific progress, not his "might."
The important observations:
Cast bullet bump-up occurs in the first 10" of barrel with a BPCR. The bullet will bump up as it exits the muzzle of a 10" barrel. Not if the barrel is one inch longer ! Bullets were fired into snow and "oiled sawdust" for collection and measurement. Dr. Mann was an M.D. who probably would have druthered to be shooting than practicing medicine, whenever he could have his druthers. That preface above tells how his hobby started at age 12 in 1868. It only took 41 years to get that book ready for publication.
A paper-patched, softcast 480-grain "PH" at 1300 to 1400 fps in the SAAMI .458 WM-BPCR: Takes care of business. A powder-coat painted, hardcast 480-grain FNGC at 1800 to 2200 fps in the SAAMI .458 WM-Smokeless: Will gitterdun. A Hornady DGX and DGS 480-grain at 2200 to 2300 fps in the SAAMI .458 WM: Cool beans at 3.340" COL. A monometal copper or brass soft or solid at 2300 to 2400 fps in a .458 WM+: The spice of life at 3.580" COL.
Sir Jerry, Always and forever the truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum must be revealed ! BTW, Whatever happened to the Original Sharps .45-110 Buffalo Rifle you were looking at ? You never started a thread on the BPCR forum about that. Did you pass on it or is it at home on the range with you ?
When I get the mould for the .450"-diameter (-.000"/+.002") slick (550 grains in WW) it will be interesting to compare notes on your Hellbender load for the .45-110 to see if it can be imitated with the .458 WM-BPCR.
Yes Sir on the 458 Win Mag TRUTH, and yes on the 45-110, those pics were taken from the dining room table that i have commandeered and cluttered with GUN stuff! [per little Wife] LOL! she likes it.
Norma .458 Winchester Magnum "reloading brass" is back in stock at Midway USA. It may cost nearly twice as much as Hornady brass, but that is still out of stock at Midway USA. Might as well bite the bullet. I want to see if it is still about 5 grains of water greater in capacity than Hornady. And also, it is now my favorite BPCR brass.
Welcome. My pleasure to be sure. A week is greatly diminished without another Bob Blog Installment.
Say, did you pull the trigger on the 340 when that bear tried to poke it's nose through the tent wall? I was picturing that in my mind and thought what a "blast" that would be! When I shot the moose with mine the blast was dissipated in the open clear cut, never noticing it.
I rolled away from the side of the tent that the Kodiak bear was pressing on and toward the tent flap, stuck the muzzle of the 340 Wby through the tent flap and fired. The earth moved as he fled. I suppose the noise and muzzle flash both were not to his liking on a moonless night. I had a flashlight on his 8-footer's butt as he vanished into the tall grass of Spiridon Moor, beside Spiridon Lake, beside Spiridon Bay, on the northwest by west side of Kodiak.
But years ago when I shot my first bear with a .458 WIN (Ruger 77) with a 22" barrel, the blast permanently damaged my right ear drum. I fired a shot off before arriving at the site and noticed no effect on my ears. I'm now almost totally deaf in my right ear (the one closest to the muzzle, and swore off ever having another 22" .458 Win). However, the 22" Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT was never an issue, so I figured another 22", .458 might be acceptable since the .45-70 LT's muzzle was closer still to my right ear not having an action. I enquired at the time (on AR) as to potential causes and I believe you were the only one who responded, suggesting I may have had an infection in the ear. I didn't know you were a medic. But the truth is/was that I did have a throat infection that affected my speech.
That is why a cold, allergies, sorethroat can ground a pilot. A little inflamation or swelling around the eustachian tube opening in the throat can make the eardrum prone to rupture with pressure changes, barotrauma, muzzle blasts, altitude changes, when pressures on both sides of the eardrum cannot rapidly equalize. You must have been as much or more a victim of your throat condition as of the muzzleblast.
So the long and short of that is I'd gladly have another Ruger 77. The current Ruger No.1 in .458 is 40" overall and has the Mag-na-ports, which makes muzzle blast closer still to my right ear than the Ruger bolt action 77. I'm not offended by the No.1 in wooded areas but I do use ear plugs.
Question: I have used muffs both at the range and in hunting with the built-in audio system, permitting good hearing in hunting (In fact, too good as in walking I hear crunching sounds under my feet, and carpenter ants in a tree next to me sounded like a woodsman with a chain saw!) but in shooting at the range they do adequately block muzzle blast. However, for hunting purposes I've stopped using them as they amplify all sounds too much and become uncomfortable.
I have a set of electronic muffs too, and think about them same as you.
So, any recommendations as to those electronic ear plugs that seem to work well and yet are unobtrusive?
Riflecrank says: I have not tried the in-the-ear-canal electronic aid/hearing protection method. I really ought to. I do not have any professional opinion to offer on them. Will have to "look" into that, for others' experience and opinions. First I need to try a different method, the suppressor/silencer, on the .458 WM. Dang if all the hunting shows haven't started showing rifles like the 28 Nosler with big, long cans on the muzzles, muzzle mufflers.
It took fingerprinting and 7 months for the ATFE, FBI, local Sheriff and whomever to provide the $200 tax stamp that must accompany a suppressor at all times. Of course it should not be used with paper-patched and gas-checked cast bullets, BP, fillers and sabots. Probably even .461" hardcast with PC paint should be avoided. Oh well, I'll have to shoot smokeless and jacketed/monometal for Bushwhacker 46-ing. Monoflex 250-grainer for a supersonic crack. Subsonic heavies at close range, how slow can I go in a 1:14" twist ? Ah ha ! An 18" barrel will help slow it down without a too-empty case. Finally, a use for a short barrel.
Sir Ron,
Many thanks for your detailed response to my inquiry.
After your response on AR, I began thinking about it and was basically aware of a connection between the throat and ears and assumed that was likely the main problem but still blamed the short barrel of the Ruger 77. But as explained, when the Ruger .45-70LT with its shortness (38 1/4") didn't seem problematic, I relented on that view but have been careful, nonetheless, to protect my hearing that's left.
And thanks for that depiction of the Kodiak bear's flight in the darkness at the blast from your .340.
Yes, probably not .44 Sharps and Remington cartridges for the old guy with the Farquharson above, more likely .461 Gibbs No. 1 or No. 2 or the .45-2.4" Match or .45-2.6" Match that John Rigby copied from Sharps when he finally quit the muzzleloaders. Creedmoor 1874 Irish team were all shooting muzzleloaders built by Rigby, as pictured above: .451" bore, with loads starting as light as 530-grain PP bullet with 85 grains of BP and working up from there. Essentially same loads as the BPCRs but with not as good gas seal around the percussion cap on the ML.
Here is the old guy transitioning away from his ML to his BPCR:
"Sir Henry Halford is shown in the following two pictures. The upper picture is from 1877 when he was Captain of the Great Britain team to Creedmoor to shoot against the USA. The lower picture was published in 1893 and was titled 'Sighting a Shot.' Note that the placement of the butt varies between pictures. Halford is shown in 1877 firing a muzzle loading rifle with tang-mounted sight, where as in 1893 he has a breech-loading rifle with heel-mounted sight."
All of them were like a .458 WM-BPCR. The .45-bore was the first and still best caliber for 1000-yard match shooting, the small bore of yore, and also the best BP express rifle to become a dangerous game rifle as a Nitro Express, and still tops.
Note how Sir Henry Halford's front sight is moved way back from the muzzle, shortening the sight radius otherwise possible. Must be to maintain the graduation yardages on the vernier that was moved to heel instead of tang. That might work on a .458 WM-BPCR Match Rifle with a 25" barrel and front sight forward, robbed from a longer-barreled Pedersoli tang.
H. Fulton is the one shooting the Rolling Block below, like the one that he used to score as the highest individual shooter of all the American and Irish competitors of Creedmoor 1874. Sorry Sharps guys.
"Two further contemporary views of shooters adopting similar positions as above are top, G.W. Yale (USA) and bottom H. Fulton (USA). Both illustrations are from the 1870s. Yale has a Sharps and Fulton a Remington breech loading rifle."
Irishman J. K. Mllner blew it by scoring a miss (0) by shooting a bullseye on the wrong target at 1000 yards with his Rigby muzzleloader. American General Dakin blew it for his team by toasting the Irish with too much champagne just before the final round at 1000 yards, in which his performance dropped off dismally ... with a Sharps. Old man John Bodine cut his trigger hand on a newfangled soda pop bottle just before his last shot of the day. Bodine wrapped his bloody hand with a hanky and saved the day with a bullseye from the prone position, belly down. It was the last shot of the day, at 1000 yards, with a Remington Rolling Block. They called him "Old Reliable" ever after. Sorry Sharps guys.
Considering all that, the Americans truly did deserve the win that day, with 3 Sharps and 3 Remingtons.
American score: 934, Top Shooter's score: H. Fulton, 171 Irish score: 931, Top Shooter's score: J. Rigby, 163
Good stuff as always Sir Ron, and lest we not forget ALL the African critters laid in the salt via the Great 461 Gibbs and 450 BPE rifles, the Brits had it going on very well.
Sir Ron, have you ever gotten a chance to fire any of your chopped Barnes monometal bullets with larger hollowpoints into any media (including water) to compare expansion behavior with stock bullets over a given velocity range?
Norma .458 Winchester Magnum "reloading brass" is back in stock at Midway USA. It may cost nearly twice as much as Hornady brass, but that is still out of stock at Midway USA. Might as well bite the bullet. I want to see if it is still about 5 grains of water greater in capacity than Hornady. And also, it is now my favorite BPCR brass.
This forum member may still have some Norma brass at a cheaper rate...I got a little myself!
The 461 Gibbs could indeed be a twin to the 44-77 Sharps as could the 450 BPE 3-1/4" be a brother to the 45 3-1/4" Sharps ; ]
A lot of similarities in those days, all cooler than today's rage over the "six five manbun." sick]
Well, at least the six five manbun got a SAAMI designation that makes it sound interesting, historic. Yes many similarities on both sides of the pond. The real Creedmoor models (Rigby ML, Sharps 1874, Remington RB), and fanciful M70 African BPCR do have a lot in common: same BP ballistics with 530 to 550-gr paper patched bullets in .45-bore, ditto the .461 Gibbs that Selous killed the Big Five with, maximum rifle weight of 10 pounds minimum trigger pull of 3 pounds no scopes
I just need to get a vernier sight on the heel of a .458 WM-BPCR and I am ready to go to the matches. Black powder is of course the ideal propellant for 550-grain paper patched bullets. No smokeless load could deliver the uniformity at the perfect velocity for prone or back position shooting. Perfect for getting a 75-foot rise in the trajectory on the way to a 1000-yard target.
Frank C. Barnes did a lot of shooting with 1:14" twist .45-70 Gov't. custom rifles. He liked 1:14" best, would not want one slower than 1:16" twist, though admitting the experts warned against anything faster than 1:18" twist. The 1:14" twist test is coming up for my .458 WM-BPCR, with duplexed BP and paper patch. Duplexed BP and paper-patched lead with a lube cookie is cleaner shooting than any smokeless-jacketed load. After 50 rounds, with no wiping or blowing, the former shows trace BP fouling and no lead fouling. while the latter will show smokeless powder fouling and heavy copper or brass or gilding metal fouling.
Your news of the brass is too little too late for me. I should check the classifieds more often, eh ?
You got me thinking on the bullet testing. The 480-gr XTSX at 2300 to 2400 fps, the 400-gr XTSX at 2500 to 2600 fps, from the .458 WM+, and cast bullet FNs light and heavy and soft and hard and 1300 fps to 2300 fps ...
The 461 Gibbs could indeed be a twin to the 44-77 Sharps as could the 450 BPE 3-1/4" be a brother to the 45 3-1/4" Sharps ; ]
A lot of similarities in those days, all cooler than today's rage over the "six five manbun." sick]
Well, at least the six five manbun got a SAAMI designation that makes it sound interesting, historic. Yes many similarities on both sides of the pond. The real Creedmoor models (Rigby ML, Sharps 1874, Remington RB), and fanciful M70 African BPCR do have a lot in common: same BP ballistics with 530 to 550-gr paper patched bullets in .45-bore, ditto the .461 Gibbs that Selous killed the Big Five with, maximum rifle weight of 10 pounds minimum trigger pull of 3 pounds no scopes
I just need to get a vernier sight on the heel of a .458 WM-BPCR and I am ready to go to the matches. Black powder is of course the ideal propellant for 550-grain paper patched bullets. No smokeless load could deliver the uniformity at the perfect velocity for prone or back position shooting. Perfect for getting a 75-foot rise in the trajectory on the way to a 1000-yard target.
Frank C. Barnes did a lot of shooting with 1:14" twist .45-70 Gov't. custom rifles. He liked 1:14" best, would not want one slower than 1:16" twist, though admitting the experts warned against anything faster than 1:18" twist. The 1:14" twist test is coming up for my .458 WM-BPCR, with duplexed BP and paper patch. Duplexed BP and paper-patched lead with a lube cookie is cleaner shooting than any smokeless-jacketed load. After 50 rounds, with no wiping or blowing, the former shows trace BP fouling and no lead fouling. while the latter will show smokeless powder fouling and heavy copper or brass or gilding metal fouling.
Nice, and all true, as is the old saying, "so much to do, so damn little daylight/time to do it in."
The data bertzs supplied was assumed to be from 5-yard chronograph and corrected to MV. Close enough for Crusade work. To compare his 22 " barrel to my 24" barrel results, I also added 40 fps to his H4198 velocities for the Monoflex. Again, close enough for Crusade work. If the COL he used was shorter than 3.340" he might gain a little pressure and a few fps velocity advantage for same powder charge versus the longer COL, but only a very little, due to the SAAMI .458 WM throat efficiencies, or is that just magic ? Accuracy might be a little better with a longer COL, maybe not, since the SAAMI .458 WM throat is a great accurizer with all COLs possible. I got out my pencil and graph paper again:
Enlarged for hopefully easier reading for old eyes:
Very close agreement. Another big buy a donkey to beretzs for saving me some components.
Maybe the diminishing returns above 80 grains of H4198 are due to heavy compression of that powder ? Even there I bet pressures are less than those of the .458 Lott MAP.
The 250-gr MonoFlex is a short range bullet due to rapid velocity loss and wind drift, i.e. low BC. Speeding it up from 2725 fps to 3075 fps gains only about 50 to 60 yards of practicality. It is very pleasant in a .458 WinMag at lower velocity and loses velocity less rapidly. Using a 90% LR net fill with AA-5744 for 2725 fps MV makes a lot of sense to me, especially in Daisy, since she likes that load best.
Great stuff. I need to get back on the 458. Been monkeying with my Mashburn the last couple days.
Buy a donkey for the flowers. We both suffer from "so much to do, so damn little daylight/time to do it in" as Sir Jerry stated.
bcelliott, Catching some more bullets falls into my daylight issues category too. I am still planning to gitterdun before hunting with that bullet. The Iron WaterBoard Buffalo has been out to pasture by I am itching to ride it again. I have a system that is as reliable and interpretable as anything else for testing soft points or FN soilds I have a Level One IWBB for softs, and a Level Two IWBB for the FN solids. I do not allow round nose solids anywhere near the IWBB since they go out the sides of the IWBB too often, and I do not like having to patch the IWBB. Lord knows plywood and waterbuckets are expensive enough nowadays. But I like them better than wet newsprint or gelatin. Heck I could throw some bones and meat into the buckets instead of water, but getting the same cuts of meat and bones lined up for every shot is dang near impossible. Know what I mean ? Blocks of gelatin or bookbinders glue or livestock protein supplement like Sir Dennis uses in the big tubs ?
Here is what Mike brady did with the bookbinders glue when he was perfecting the North Fork bullets:
The Homer Bucket method requires only some wooden step hangers (decking), some 4x4 timbers, and 5-gallon nylon buckets with lids nestled in line horizontally. Even the 55-gallon-drum-of-water-killer bullets can be stopped by this simple apparatus for soft point catching.
The first bucket and maybe second buckets and lids in the line will be exploded, depending on velocity of bullet. Subsequent ones in the line may be salvaged for reuse after some duct tape.
Here is a sample of GSC HV .395-caliber/ 340-grain bullets at 3 muzzle velocities, caught by the Homer Buckets at 25 yards:
Some bullets do penetrate deeper at higher velocity, some don't. These also penetrate deeper at higher velocity from the .395 Tatanka (.395/.416 Rigby 20* Shoulder), they are custom S&H 310-gr/ .395-caliber brass "velohexploders" tested before CEB brass softs were a gleam in Michael McCourry's eye. Lehigh Defense was doing such things before CEB or S&H.
IWBB Level One, one plywood board and one waterbucket per compartment:
IWBB Level Two, two plywood boards and one waterbucket per compartment. 10 compartments, each compartment 10" thick, 100" long from head to rump. 4 inches thickness of extra plywood is the tail on the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo.
The Level One is for the 550-gr paper-patched 20:1 alloy FN at 1400 fps from the .458 WM-BPCR, and the 400-gr XTSX at +2500 fps from the .458 WM+, and the 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps from the .458 WM+.
The Level Two is for the 480-gr XTSX and 480-gr HYDRO and 500-gr TBSS at +2300 fps from the .458 WM+.
I'm waiting for Ron to show up for his comments, but I'll make a couple of my own in the meantime: With all due respect, there's nothing new there. It has all been discussed, corrected and debunked on AR, and now here on this thread.
I read an article not long ago in one of the magazines in which the author did his best to put the .458 Win Mag in a more modern light, but it fell far short of the whole truth, similar to this video. In factory ammo the Lott will exceed the Winchester by 100 to 150 fps depending on a number of factors: It's loaded "hotter" than the .458 WIN and it needs a longer barrel.
The speaker made a number of critical errors in his statements: The original .458 Win was not in a 26" barrel, but a 25". In handloads, a dozen years ago I was able to exceed 3.6" COL with 500gr Barnes X-Bullets in my CZ550. In fact, due to the action length (same as the CZ550 Lott) I reached 3.78", leaving more room for powder than the Lott, plus still have more "freebore". That was a dozen years ago, and it was published in my manual at the time with photos showing the COL of each side by side, with the .458 Win exceeding the COL of the Lott - 3.6" vs 3.78". In my Ruger No.1, with its 24", I can easily duplicate and slightly exceed the results I got from my former CZ550.
Then, thanks to Sir Ron. he has shown that all that is possible at LOWER PSI than the Lott! He has also revealed the truth that the SAAMI PSI for the .458 WIN is 60,000 vs 62,500 for the Lott! There's no honest reason for increasing PSI over the .458 WIN other than for promotional purposes. And... the fact is that original Winchester ammo did make the claimed ballistics, as well as handloads back-in-the day, according to several sources.
And I'm sure Ron will chime in here - I hope he does.
Nonetheless, Russ, I appreciate your motive and you personally.
And I should add: I consider Sir Ron the current guru on the GREAT .458 Winchester Magnum. He's done more testing of a variety of bullets, including cast, from several rifles than even the so-called pros. Also, the historical research and meticulous analysis. I know of no one with greater knowledge, or as much, as Ron. And he's still carrying on...
My feelings about the find of BadboyMelvin are same as yours. Buy a donkey to him for bringing it here.
The guy making the youtube has a great newsreader voice and he does prefer the .458 Winchester Magnum over the .458 Lott, bless his heart. But there are a lot of holes in his presentation as you note.
The claim of 26" barrel use instead of 25" barrel, as you note, and the false claim of failure to achieve advertised ballistics in original rifles shows the guy did only superficial research and was regurgitating the pablum of the Lottites on those points. He should have read General Hatcher and known that in H. P. White Laboratory data of circa 1955 engineering development, in a 25" barrel:
500-gr WRA FMJ round nose 3.340" COL 71.0 grains HiVel#2 NOT COMPRESSED Winchester No. 120 primer Winchester brass case >>> 2160 fps <<< at 50,410 PSI for average of 10 shots.
A bit less egregious is his flummux in saying that the German 9.3x62mm Mauser M98 of 1905 inspired the English .404 Jeffery M98 of 1904 ! Yes, the .404 Jeffery was first, bless his heart. And he did not even point out that the 9.3x62mm Mauser of CIP spec gains much of its mightier-than-expected prowess from being throated with a long, leade-only chamber similarly as with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
He totally neglected the .450 Watts Magnum and .450 Watts Short in the history of the .458 Winchester Magnum, over two decades before Jack Lott neglected it too.
He neglected to mention that if Jack Lott's first shot on the Mozambique cape buffalo in 1959 had not been a gut shot then Wally Johnson would not have had to use Jack's .458 Winchester Magnum to finish off the cape buffalo, after Jack got tossed and dropped his rifle on the ground.
He carries water for the .458 Lott in claiming so much superiority for the Lott. There is only 50 fps superiority for the Lott, not 150 fps, if both are limited to SAAMI restrictions with 500-grain bullets. He fails to mention that the .458 Winchester Magnum can be loaded to 3.600" with many bullets instead of 3.340". He fails to mention that the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum can be loaded to the higher MAP (62,500 PSI) that the .458 Lott requires to have any advantage over the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum at MAP of 60,000 psi . If the .458 Winchester Magnum is loaded to 3.6" COL and 62,500 PSI, it easily surpasses the .458 Lott in velocity and at lower pressure.
He really did not stress the past failures in faulty manufacturing of factory loads for the .458 Winchester Magnum. He just blew it off as inherent to the .458 Winchester Magnum case capacity. The same QA applied to the .458 Lott would have resulted in the same problems.
Also he did not mention that the current SAAMI .458 Lott is a far cry from the .458 Lott that Jack built. Jack had his cartridge inserted within the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber, with same length to end of throat. The SAAMI .458 Lott is crippled by its short and tight little throat.
Well, he came to the right conclusion anyway, even if it was because the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum has less recoil than the SAAMI .458 Lott, even when both are delivering the same ballistics.
Buy a donkey to all y'all for appreciation of the bullet trap. I had to delete one of the pictures above because it showed the Iron WaterBoard Elephant (IWBE) misidentified as the Level Two Iron WaterBoard Buffalo (IWBB). I have decided to leave the IWBB out at pasture. Instead of IWBB Levels One, Two, and Three, THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE. One level of IWBE with 3 boards per compartment fits all. Lesser bullets will make do with whatever they score, soft or solid. Regrettably, I fiddled with a lot of other calibers (including inventing the .395-caliber rifle barrel with enabling by Harry McGowen) before coming to the realization that the .458 Winchester Magnum was best of all sporting rifles. I will be riding the elephant instead of the buffalo henceforth. Allow me to explain ...
Medium hardness cast bullet pancaking at high velocity:
Hard brass FN does not expand at only 2400 fps:
The Level Two IWBB, two boards per compartment, same brass FN at higher velocity was trapped, but might have exited out the tail end of the Level One IWBB:
A visual on the boards and buckets penetrated in the IWBB Level Two by those two bullets:
The lower scoring copper FN (340-gr/ .395-cal at 2700 fps):
The deeper penetrating brass FN (330-gr/ .395-cal at 2800 fps):
I forgot about the iron water board Buffalo. I am sure you remember Bastard Bullet Works!!
My test box was 72” of wet newsprint, with 2 by 6’s on each end and one more about 12” in. Out of of my Lott, a 450 grain NF or BBW solid clean through everything out in the cane field.
It would have been the same out of a WM, it is just what I had.
I forgot about the iron water board Buffalo. I am sure you remember Bastard Bullet Works!!
My test box was 72” of wet newsprint, with 2 by 6’s on each end and one more about 12” in. Out of of my Lott, a 450 grain NF or BBW solid clean through everything out in the cane field.
It would have been the same out of a WM, it is just what I had.
Those are some great bullets.
Yes, Mike70560, yours was like Michael McCourry's setup. And yes, it would have been the same with the .458 WM+ pushing the North Fork 450-grainer FN at 2400 fps MV, only a little more energy would have been wasted on the cane field with the .458 WM+. The IWBB is now the IWBE. Hoorah !
I expect that the .458/ 500-gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid (bronze FN with sectional density .341) at 2300 fps impact with IWBE at 25 yards, from a .458 WM+, will pass beyond the fifth compartment, straight and true to a stop.
Originally Posted by Mike70560: "I forgot about the iron water board Buffalo. I am sure you remember Bastard Bullet Works!!"
Mike, did you mean "Bastard file Bullet Works" where the BBW nose profile of CEB was created ?
And about forgetting the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo: Yes, we are.
Goodbye Iron WaterBoard Buffalo:
Henceforth all bullet interrogation will be by Iron WaterBoard Elephant ...
I am grateful for the pioneering use of a bastard file by BBW personnel. Bastard file milling techniques continue to this day at BB&BMT (Bubba's Bullet & Brass Metamorphosis Technologies, Ltd., very limited).
Buy a donkey for the flowers beretzs. Maybe all those 480-grainers, copper, brass, and hardcast (FN or pointy) bullets with gas checks may be limited to only 2200 fps for similar POI and gentle recoil. After all, that would be the original .450 NE ballistics against which all success is compared. DRT no question. SAAMI .458 WM easily does that at 3.340" and 60,000 PSI.
The ultimate power-perforator, solid-bullet load that beats a SAAMI .458 Lott with a .458 WM+: +2350 fps in a 24" barrel.
Got a Bud running a BOLO for me on AA-2230 Sir Ron, if he's able to score some, i'll load the lifetime supply of 450gr TSX's you graciously sent my way!
450gr TSX at 2450 may call for a quick slap of a 2-10 NF and some 1125 yard gong banging ; ]
I need to do that 450-grainer again too, at less than 3.6" COL and with no more than 24" of barrel, so as not to make the .458 Lott look too bad in comparison. Yep, AA-2230.
Just thought about putting those .440"/ 530-grain paper-patched bullets to use in a CVA Paramount muzzleloader with .450" bore diameter and 1:22" twist. Soft lead paper-patched to snug in bore and rammed home from the muzzle. Put a heel-mounted vernier sight on that one, with a globe front sight. Ought to be like a Rigby muzzleloader used at Creedmoor in 1874.
Those UK chaps refused to give up their muzzleloaders until 1880, despite the regular trouncings they took from the BPCR-shooting Americans in 1874 and thereafter. Interesting that John Rigby then copied the .45-2.4" and 2.6" Sharps cartridges for his match BPCR about 1880, before going on to create the .450 NE 3.25" in 1897. Now we can do it all with a .45-2.5" belted case.
We can reproduce everything from 1850's 1000-yard muzzleloader ballistics to .450 Nitro Express ballistics (plus beat the SAAMI .458 Lott for good measure) with a Ruger No. 1, Winchester M70, or CZ 550 Magnum with SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber. Just remember to use the .450"-diameter slicks for paper patching to groove diameter (or a little bigger) when using the SAAMI .458 WM to re-enact the Irish or American Creedmoor ballistics.
I keep forgetting to try a stack of shot capsules in the .458 WM just to deny the .458 Lott its only superiority with rat and snake loads. Will see if a second shot capsule in the .458 WM will stick out farther than can be loaded in the short-throated .458 Lott. Or, just a case full of bird shot with one capsule sticking forward about an inch ? Might pattern better than the usual, proper .458 Lott rat load.
Why yes, several years ago, almost forgot about that. Sometimers may be setting in ...
.451"/140-gr balls times 3 (Traditions-brand, swaged lead roundballs for cap&ball revolver): 420 grains lead with 18.5 grains of Blue Dot in Hornady .458 WM case F215 primer one Lyman .45-cal gas check used as over-powder wad, tapped in with wooden dowel and rubber mallet then 0.5" diameter foam wad 0.5" in length goes in next first 2 balls pressed into foam using the belling die plug third ball seated to equator of ball, use taper crimp prior if ball too loose to stay put use LEE factory crimp die too lock the ball in place
So the sights may be not so important, as there is some randomness to where the balls hit. ~3" spread at 10 yards ~7" spread at 25 yards
Why does one ball make a smudged, ragged, round hole while the other two balls make cookie cutter, .45-caliber holes ? Not sure. Those ragged ones are not gas check holes at 25 yards. I saw gas checks at 10 yards in the birdshot patterning, flying sideways like Frisbees.
More work on the birdshot loads is needed. 18.5 grains of Blue Dot pushing 400 grains of 7-1/2 shot does not pattern too well past 10 yards. That was without shot capsule use, just a gas check used as an over-shot card. Need to get the shot charge over an ounce.
Try it and let us know. I was going for the buckshot, smoothbore effect with bore-sized 3 balls. Now I am wanting to try a paper-wrapped single ball. This will take us back to origins of the American Long Rifle in Pennsylvania, which was the inspiration for the British "BP Express Rifle." Redcoats were in awe of the marksmanship with those squirrel rifles. How to get a pea-shooter, maybe, 140-grain ball at 2000 fps ? That .458 WM might be even more versatile than I have heretofore imagined ! BTW, I estimate the 3-ball load had MV of about 1100-1200 fps. No chrono data and who cares !
I doubt a .454 lead ball will make a very good gas seal in a .458 WM. Leading might be an issue. Maybe a .40-cal ball in a sabot ? Maybe paper-patch the sabot from .450" to .461" and have a better squeeze on the whole affair ? Paper patch shreds in the rifling and discards at the muzzle as does the sabot.
Young Davy Crockett's first Ol' Betsy was a .40-cal, before he went to Texas with a .58-cal. I have killed deer with a .40-cal flintlock. DRT with a neck shot at 50 yards. Little round ball at 2000 fps was the first "Express Rifle." Maybe the .458 WM can recreate the entire history of the hunting rifle ballistics (any worth recreating) from 1700 to 2021 and beyond. Still the best ever, the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Do you think a couple of applications of powder coat to the .454" ball (which should add to the diameter 0.003" or so) would solve both the diameter and leading problems?
Do you think a couple of applications of powder coat to the .454" ball (which should add to the diameter 0.003" or so) would solve both the diameter and leading problems?
That is a great idea ! I only have .451" and .395" diameter balls on hand. I figure that 24 grains of Blue Dot will make my .395-cal ball (93.5 grains) in a sabot go +2000 fps MV from a 23"-barreled .458 Win.Mag. I have proven that will kill a deer at 50 yards with a neck shot, in my Davy Crockett flintlock, with 60 grains of FFFg GOEX.
Powder-coat paint a .454" ball a couple of times, great idea !
More to come, documenting the incredible versatility of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
I am going to have to get back out to the friend's farm to use the Oehler 35P at 7 yards. It did much better at chronographing paper-patched, duplexed-BP loads with grease cookies, but is impractical at the public range due to terrain and lack of "elbow room."
We have conquered the .458 Lott, well and truly. Most interesting now, for me, is to recreate the entire history of practical rifle ballistics, using the .458 WM. Single round ball, BPCR, Nitro Express and beyond, plus a shot-capsule load for pests, the usual domain of the .458 Lott. And one more .458 Winchester Magnum rifle, a Winchester M70 Classic (or FN/Portuguese) stainless rifle with all the bells and whistles. Maybe a stainless full octagon barrel with barrel ladder, Beach combo front sight, vernier sight on heel of synthetic stock, and the Near 25-MOA Picatinny on the action. A 10-pound limit with no scope, 24" barrel, fun to shoot. A round barrel of No. 5 sporter contour will do it easily, need to do some figuring on the octagons and barrel sights.
Got a Bud running a BOLO for me on AA-2230 Sir Ron, if he's able to score some, i'll load the lifetime supply of 450gr TSX's you graciously sent my way!
450gr TSX at 2450 may call for a quick slap of a 2-10 NF and some 1125 yard gong banging ; ]
That sounds like a zinger Gunner. I’ll be watching for 2230 and 450’s to follow your lead.
I am going to have to get back out to the friend's farm to use the Oehler 35P at 7 yards. It did much better at chronographing paper-patched, duplexed-BP loads with grease cookies, but is impractical at the public range due to terrain and lack of "elbow room."
We have conquered the .458 Lott, well and truly. Most interesting now, for me, is to recreate the entire history of practical rifle ballistics, using the .458 WM. Single round ball, BPCR, Nitro Express and beyond, plus a shot-capsule load for pests, the usual domain of the .458 Lott. And one more .458 Winchester Magnum rifle, a Winchester M70 Classic (or FN/Portuguese) stainless rifle with all the bells and whistles. Maybe a stainless full octagon barrel with barrel ladder, Beach combo front sight, vernier sight on heel of synthetic stock, and the Near 25-MOA Picatinny on the action. A 10-pound limit with no scope, 24" barrel, fun to shoot. A round barrel of No. 5 sporter contour will do it easily, need to do some figuring on the octagons and barrel sights.
That octagon barrel would look even more awesomer with a timed octagon muzzle brake. 😁😀
Got a Bud running a BOLO for me on AA-2230 Sir Ron, if he's able to score some, i'll load the lifetime supply of 450gr TSX's you graciously sent my way!
450gr TSX at 2450 may call for a quick slap of a 2-10 NF and some 1125 yard gong banging ; ]
That sounds like a zinger Gunner. I’ll be watching for 2230 and 450’s to follow your lead.
10-4 Big B, it'll be a blast in more ways than one, with Sir Rons 458 Win Mag+ explorations the cartridge is indeed an "Entity" of it's own, from back porch coons raiding the dog bowl to a 12,000 lb charging Bull Elephant, it's all nicely covered.
About the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambering of the .458 WM+:
Originally Posted by gunner500
... the cartridge is indeed an "Entity" of it's own, from back porch coons raiding the dog bowl to a 12,000 lb charging Bull Elephant, it's all nicely covered.
WELL SAID !
Looks like I need to fire those 450-gr TSX using 24" barrel and 3.56" COL limit with AA-2230 fps. A 25" Shilen barrel and 3.68" COL with 84 grains of AA-2230 previously yielded 2457 fps velocity at 5 yards, corrected to MV = 2469 fps. That was in Hornady brass with F215 primer, and no signs of excessive pressure. It was a 100% fill with drop tube and no compression at the 3.68" COL. I will use Daisy the Ruger No. 1 .458 WM with 24" barrel at the next outing. She is the standard .458 WM+ rifle to which all others may be compared. Hornady brass is the standard brass to which all others may be compared.
Will be keeping it to no more than 24" of barrel and less than 3.60" of COL (even though a Ruger No. 1 does up to 3.78" COL with either the 450-gr TSX or 500-grain TSX with same nose on both bullets) so as not to have the Lottites crying foul.
I will start over with 80 grains of AA-2230 which ought to be about a 100% fill at 3.56" COL and start compressing one grain at a time to 84-grain maximum. Then start with the 84 grain charge of AA-2230 in the Norma brass (of larger capacity) for a non-compressed load of 3.56" COL. Maybe 85 grains would make up for the 1" shorter barrel by using Norma brass ? Maybe the mildly compressed AA-2230 in Hornady brass would more than make up for a 1" shorter barrel ?
Also, Marcella McGowen-Winchester will be used with paper-patched, duplexed-BP, 480-gr PH loads, as well as some smokeless ball & shot loads, from her 23" barrel.
Trying to keep everything to 24" or shorter barrels and less than 3.6" COL so as to relieve pain and suffering amongst the Lottites. No excuses.
450 at 2450 or bust ! There are also some newfangled ball powders good in the .223/5.56 that are also good in the .458 WM. And I never went past 81 grains of H4895 with a 450-grainer. That would make a dandy compressed load if needed to get to 2450 fps with 3.562" COL from a 24" barrel. Afterall, the 400-grain Woodleigh does +2600 fps at 3.425" COL with heavily compressed load. But compressed loads are another excuse for the Lottites to cry foul, whenever the .458 WM+ beats the .458 Lott. If the SAAMI .458 Lott has a 50 fps advantage over the SAAMI-restricted .458 WM (60,000 psi and 3.340" COL), then the .458 WM+ has at least a 50 fps advantage over the .458 Lott at 62,500 psi and 3.600" COL.
Recall:
Sir Jerry has done this at 3.565" COL, which is very cool:
And Sir Bob did this at even shorter COL ! Way cool:
Another WELL SAID is the latest from Sir Bob at: www.bigbores.ca
Hey, I know that I’ll never get to use all that a .458 Win Mag can deliver other than in range testing, but that experience has had its own rewards in its uniqueness… sort of like the finding of a rare gem. To a gemologist that would be the experience of a lifetime. Again, similar to a unique piece of art to an artist. In either case, the joy is in the finding and possession of something rare and beautiful in their eyes, not just the potential monetary value. For myself, the personal discovery of the .458’s potential, without and before the findings of others that I was aware of, has been like an astro-scientist discovering secrets of the universe that hadn’t come to light previously! Especially is that so when so much denial and negativity falsely surrounded the history of the .458 Winchester Magnum so that lies were manufactured to justify the creation of “new” Big Bores such as the .416 Remington and .458 Lott. Not only so, but a resurrection of “old” Big Bores were flooding the market, such as the .404 Jeffrey and .416 Rigby that were said to be The Answer to the failure of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Talk about a rush by authors to deal a death blow to the .458 Win, as well as digging holes to bury it! Ross Seyfried, noted gun guru and author, predicted it’s demise as soon as the .416 Remington was announced! Not that there’s much wrong with the .416 Remington, which I’d prefer over the Rigby, but it isn’t a .458 Win Mag in versatility!
Then there are those spokesmen and authors who have done harm to the perception of the .458 WIN with faint praise, and in making excuses for it! If anyone NEEDS more than 5000 to 6000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy from a 300gr to 550gr/.458-caliber for any earthly creature, then they need to be excused!
.458 Winchester Magnum owners are now coming out of their closets, no longer needing to be embarrassed for owning one! Rather, they can hold their heads high knowing they have the finest of all BIG BORES!
That's a great write up. If I didn't have so much home building going on. I would be posting up . Things at least somewhat useful. Alas I have to read, dream and think. I was wondering how 4166 works in the 458. Has anyone tried it yet. No signs of H335 on the shelves yet . Nor H4895 or AA2460. But I do have some 2230. So all is not lost.
From one of my correspondents on : BULLETS for Big Bores - the .458 Winchester Magnum
"One crazy combination that works in the .458 Win Mag Ruger is a Lehigh 528 grain Match Solid over 74 grains of H335 at an overall length of, get this, 4.22 inches. My tests with that one gave 2186 fps at a measured pressure of 60 kpsi."
Lately, I've been getting some gems from the .458 WIN fraternity.
I need to measure the throat in my 70 and see how long it is actually.
Those 450’s sound quite darned powerful.
Standard 458 Win Mag chamber will be plenty Big B, i had a rube goldberg parts gun in 375 AI built up on an old model 70 action i torched the throat on in 7mm STW, pulled the AI barrel, had a spare barrel in 375 H&H, had 'smith install that one and sent it to JES for the 458 Win Mag rebore-rechamber, a 458 WM built on a 375 H&H length action is a whole house of hell waiting to be unleashed.
Sir Ron, i just missed some AA 2230 in stock, out friend sir Hannay sent me a pm about it in stock, i had a crazy hit and miss, hurry up and wait cluster of a day, checked a bit ago, GONE! oh well, one of these days i'll catch it in stock, i have 100 WW-Super cases FL sized, annealed, trimmed and tumbled to a sparkling shine waiting for the powder and to set the big 450gr TSX's in at 3.565 inch, bet i can get an accurate 2450 fps with the 2230.
".458 Lott, Jack's Legacy" by Ross Seyfried RIFLE #204 Nov-Dec 2002, pp. 22-26 Ross Seyfried
THE COMMERCIAL ESTABLISHMENT OF A FINE BIG-BORE CARTRIDGE -- AND WHY IT EXISTS.
(Ross starts it off with a sort of sub-subtitle as his first short paragraph of the article:) Notice the prominence of the word "commercial." Is this a wink and a nod to the Lottite Commercial Cabal ?)
To begin at the beginning, I must do two things that
surprise me and then ask some very major ballistic questions.
(Remember the phrase "ballistic questions" for it starts this off and also ends it for Ross.)
First, I will mildly disagree with my late friend Jack Lott.
Second, I will, now with a "very-mild" connotation, defend the .458 Winchester.
(Very mild my ass !)
Then we look at the first professional, "pressure-gun" data for the Lott.
This data is wildly different than we expected, and we are only able to ask an educated, Why?
The goal is to offer a good understanding of the whys and wherefores of a fine round, the .458 Lott,
now adopted by Hornady and Ruger ...
(Well, boo hoo for the .458 Lott and HOO RAH for the .458 Winchester Magnum. We now skip to the last 2 pages of these 5 pages of true enlightenment.)
... You can see the complete load workup from the Hornady lab.
The ballistician tells me he worked to a maximum of 62,000 psi
(electronic piezo) and that the barrel was a Wiseman and nearly identical
to the company's .458 Winchester pressure barrel.
(Both pressure barrels were 24" long and .458" in groove diameter. The .458 Lott had 1:10" twist, the .458 Winchester Magnum had 1:14" twist. NO EXCUSE !)
The largest surprise was that he was
only able to wring 2,250 fps out of the Lott
with one powder, Winchester 748.
Maximum data for several other powders is within
a few tenths of a grain of their maximum
for the .458 Winchester.
The Lott case should have much more
internal capacity than the Winchester,
and therefore, it should take significantly more
of the same powder to achieve the same ballistics.
(But this is not so, because the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat produces greater "effective" case capacity and pressure reduction at shorter Cartridge Overall Length for the same bullet. Therefore, we could possibly model the .458 Winchester Magnum in QuickLoad by adding about 13 grains of water to its default gross case capacity, even though COL remains 3.340".)
We also see that the maximum load of 4320 being 73.6 grains,
where historical data went almost 13 grains higher.
I knew the old published loads of 4320 were a bit hot,
but only by a few grains.
Accounting for the next 9 grains between proven working loads
and Hornady's maximum, is difficult.
(Not so difficult if you realize that Jack's first rifles were re-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum Rifles with longer throats than the SAAMI .458 Lott that Hornady was testing. Changing powder lots in the Lotts might be a secondary difference from the old days. But here is how IMR-4320 shook out:)
(That is enough to make a Lottite cry. Be sure to have a hanky handy if you have to discuss the facts with a Lottite.)
Last but not least, Reloder 15 is shown with 76.6-grain
maximum load and only 2,150 fps.
Two things about this one confuse me.
First, RL-15 is usually quite close to 748 in charge weights.
Second, the load is far behind that for the .416 Remington,
a reasonably similar cartridge where RL-15 is the hands-down favorite.
How could all this be possible?
(Perhaps the SAAMI MAP for the .416 Remington Magnum allowing it 65,000 psi has some small contribution to the confusion ?)
I believe we can point our fingers at a few possibilities.
First, there is the common syndrome of wildcats, even established wildcats,
being overloaded by modern scientific pressure standards.
Next, there is the probability that the Hornady pressure barrel
is not only extra, extra tight, but also may well have an
unrealistically short throat.
(Is Ross Seyfried accusing SAAMI of being incompetent for the way the SAAMI .458 Lott is throated ? He already said the Lott and Winchester barrels were "nearly identical." Now he is suggesting tighter groove/bore in the Lott barrel ? The small difference in twist rates is an insignificant difference.)
The combination would result in excess pressure with very normal loads.
(WELCOME TO THE SAAMI .458 LOTT, ROSS. That is just SAAMI .458 Lott ballistics as usual.)
Also, the cases are Hornady manufacture,
a brand that has never been used before in the Lott.
This is a big wild card, because the internal capacity
may be much different than the cases we are used to.
(If Ross had checked a few cases for water capacity, easily done in a few minutes, it would have eliminated this plausible deniability of disappointment with the .458 Lott.)
Therefore as promised, I leave you
only with questions, not answers.
But, rest assured in the future
we will seek and find the ballistic truth.
In the meantime, be cautious with your new Lott.
Things may not be what they have appeared to be in the past.
Well, that is just golden ! The wildcat .458 Lott was throated with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum leade to same length from breech face to full rifling. The SAAMI .458 Lott is not ! Ross never could come clean about this. He later simply issued a flat out DENIAL OF THE .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM and disappeared. Very suspicious behavior on his part ... I suspect threats from the Lottite Commercial Cabal, my favorite conspiracy theory.
Is that load from The Maz ? He did good work. I would want to shoot that 528-gr VLD Lehigh at max speed in a 1:14" twist, but will need a 1:8" twist for subsonic and suppressed, 1000-yard shooting with that bullet ! I might get to it eventually.
Sir Jerry,
Hang in there. The weeds have been mowed and the rain has stopped for the weekend. You have shown the way with your 3.565" COL with the 450-gr TSX. Now I must stop flapping my fingers on the keyboard and go gitterdun.
This is perfectly understandable due to the throating difference: SAAMI .458 Lott is too tight and too short. SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum is perfection.
Speaking of how easy it is to blow a primer with the SAAMI .458 Lott ...
I am proud to say I finally blew another primer with the .458 Winchester Magnum. This is my second such achievement. First one was about 35 years ago using IMR-4198 and a 400-grainer in R-P brass, in a Remington 700 BDL "Safari" IIRC. I have some loads to disassemble now. I quit when I achieved the lock-up of Daisy the Ruger No. 1, as the rain was about to pour from the sky. I went home and opened her by pulling hard enough on the lever for the extractor to jump the belted-case rim. A loose primer fell out, recovered. The Norma brass case was pushed out easily with a ML ramrod. See photos below. Daisy is ready to go again.
Is the Norma brass soft ? Does the temperature change of 42*F warmer have something to do with this, compared to my previous 450-gr TSX top load ? The 500-grain TBSS with AA-2460 at +2350 fps from a 24" barrel is still tops, thank you Sir Jerry. The 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps is still plenty good, using only 80 grains of AA-2230 at 3.565" COL. Apparently 500-grain weight and compactness of length make the TBSS solid more efficient at kinetic energy production.
I will stick with Hornady and W-W Super brass for top performance with smokeless loads of 250-gr to 600-gr bullets, whether jacketed or monometal, including PC-painted hardcast.
My preferred use for Norma .458 Win. Mag. brass is still to use it for duplexed BP and paper-patched:
I had noted the variances in powder charges between the Lott and .458 Win immediately on purchasing Hornady's 7th Edition, sometime before I read Ross's article on the same.
I had checked with one of the top (or the top) ballistics' guy, when Hornady was doing renovations, and asked questions about the difference in case volume between their Win and Lott cases. He scrambled a bit to find the data (due to renovations), and when located these numbers were given to me: 94.2 for the .458 Win and 102.6 for the Lott. That's nothing like Ross' claim, and it explained to me why so little difference between the two with equal length barrels. Also, keeping in mind the higher psi for the Lott by SAAMI. Then he also gave the "freebore" or leade distinctions using the same 500gr. For the WIN it was over .7 and the Lott something under .2. So there's little mystery left as to why the .458 WIN can match the Lott, or exceed it, when the heavies are seated longer than the Lott at less pressure.
All that, of course, you've pointed out several times. But I thought some would like to know the real distinctions in water capacity between the two HORNADY cases, which is only 8.4 grs water, or 7 grains of the same powder when the same bullet is seated to the same depth. Of course, one doesn't NEED to seat bullets to 1/2" in the WIN. 1/4" will suffice in the Ruger No.1 or M70 and CZ 550 with a lightly compressed powder charges and a LEE crimp die (especially if a cannelure tool is used, as in your suggestion).
Then, as Ross alluded to, in some loads with the same powder, there's virtually no distinction in charge and results; except that the .458 Win is doing it at 59,500 psi and the Lott at 62,000 Examples: IMR 4320 and IMR 4064.
ANYONE, with less than a high school diploma can clearly see the math - IF THEY WANT TO!
Another thing: Even the LOTT that Jack built with the .458 Win throat, couldn't exceed the COL of a .458 WIN with an action that allows it! They would be the same, except the .458 that "Jack built" was a wildcat without limits in PSI (or until something broke!). There's no doubt now that the folk at Winchester knew what they were doing when the original .458 Winchester Magnum was brought out in 1956.
Well sung ! Sir Bob, aka Brother Bob, is lead singer in the choir, and he is a virtuoso ! I can't carry a tune in a bucket, compared to him.
But I can try some .40-cal balls in .45-cal sabots, and some 7-1/2 shot in the Speer .45-cal shot capsules, trying two capsules in one .458 WM case. That size shot is great for a wide range of pest shooting. So is a .40-cal ball quite flexible for a wide range of game. Will try them with next outing for the self-cleaning, paper-patched, duplexed-BP loads.
The possibilities for .458 Winchester Magnum exploits is greater than with any other cartridge. We are just getting started here.
All Good Sir Ron, seems 82-83gr AA 2230 may be the ticket for 2450 fps with the 450gr TSX's in my WW-Super brass, 3-4 grains under primer blow is a safe spot, and i agree, Norma brass is soft, has been since way back in the day when i was shaking 460 WBY hulls to get more imr-4350 under those 500gr hornadys , i indeed exceeded the listed 2700 fps, at 2800 fps the brass was good for a couple firings.
... Norma brass is soft, has been since way back in the day when i was shaking 460 WBY hulls to get more imr-4350 under those 500gr hornadys , i indeed exceeded the listed 2700 fps, at 2800 fps the brass was good for a couple firings.
Sir Jerry, I always stopped at 115 grains IMR-4350 and 2500-ish fps back in the day. Hence never had a problem with the 460 Wby brass made by Norma.
I would have gone ahead with the 83-gr charge AA-2230 in Hornady brass at 3.565" COL, but for my rifle being stuck shut by the 86-gr charge in Norma brass, and the rain clouds blowing in from the southwest. Dang that Gulf of Mexico air mass ! But I will not try the 84-gr charge in the Hornady brass at 3.565" COL with the 450-gr TSX. That charge worked nicely at 3.685" COL. Increasing the COL from 3.565" to 3.685" effectively increases case capacity by 5.0 grains of water, exactly. (41.66 grains of H20 for each inch of .458-cal diameter cylinder) Thus, Hornady brass at 3.685" COL becomes 0.5 gr bigger than the Norma brass at 3.565" COL. Hornady and W-W Super are better brass than that softer and thinner Norma in .458 WM !
Yep, from my results 83-gr charge ought to be +2450 fps at 3.565" COL in a 24" barrel, IF compression of the powder in the Hornady or Winchester brass does not do what it did in the Norma brass. I am liking noncompressed AA-2230 more and more. 80 grains at 3.565" COL and 84 grains at 3.685" COL, in the Hornady brass. My Winchester brass is interchangeable with my Hornady brass in all my loading experience with the .458 WM. Your rifle and mileage may vary.
3.565" COL makes for about .45" seating depth. So, 3.685" COL makes for about .33" seating depth, which is plenty as Sir Bob described. If I really gotta have +6000 ft-lbs from the 450-grainer, I might carry one in the chamber, with the 3.6" magazine box filled with your 500-gr TBSS at +6225 ft-lbs and 3.545"COL, seating depth 0.355". Like carrying two rifles. One magazine repeater rifle and one single shot rifle all in same rifle.
It is too bad that the Norma brass (I just bought some) is sticky and will waste the added volume since one can't drive it as hard. I've had some sticky Norma brass in 6.5x55 and 9.3x62, but I was hoping this would be different. Now if we could have the best of both worlds--capacity and strength...Lapua??? For now, I guess I will go back to my Hornady brass.
It is too bad that the Norma brass (I just bought some) is sticky and will waste the added volume since one can't drive it as hard. I've had some sticky Norma brass in 6.5x55 and 9.3x62, but I was hoping this would be different. Now if we could have the best of both worlds--capacity and strength...Lapua??? For now, I guess I will go back to my Hornady brass.
It is too bad that the Norma brass (I just bought some) is sticky and will waste the added volume since one can't drive it as hard. I've had some sticky Norma brass in 6.5x55 and 9.3x62, but I was hoping this would be different. Now if we could have the best of both worlds--capacity and strength...Lapua??? For now, I guess I will go back to my Hornady brass.
Interestingly Bob Hagel complained about Weatherby brass as being too soft (made by Norma) compared to American brass for the .300 Weatherby. The same thing appears to be true for the .340 Weatherby as he was unable to come close to my results (and Hagel certainly didn't under-load anything!) in using Remington fire formed .375 H&H once-fired. A fellow at the range asked if I could use his fired .375 H&H Remington brass from his practising for an African safari. I accepted all six boxes for my .340 and never needed to purchase cases thereafter. They were fire-formed in the chamber of my .340 using 35 grains of SR 4759 under the 200gr Nosler BT at around 2200 fps. That would have been a good deer load shooting about MOA, though I never shot deer with it.
They were used for my moose hunt in N.Ontario firing the 250gr NP at 3000 fps (avg over 10 years of 2997 fps). Some were used for ten firings or until cracks appeared in the neck from hardening.
I had one "Weatherby" factory cartridge in .340, donated by our second son who had received it as a gift from a friend who thought the .340 was the "best of the best". It was, of course, a Norma loading. I fired it over a CHRONO at the range and the 250gr Hornady bullet did make the then Weatherby claim of 2850 fps. I weighed the empty brass case and it was somewhat lighter than the Remington brass for the .375 H&H I was using. The brass was thinner, no doubt, and would have held slightly more powder. I never reloaded it.
I used to think a guy with a good 340 was the king of the elk mountain if he could tote it around and fire it accurately. Just a solid cartridge for heavier a animals. I use one of the wimpy little P64 338 Wins quite a lot but the big Weatherby sure is something.
Since we're currently discussing the shortages of certain brass and powders for particular applications, may I offer some chip shots here?
Though I no longer have or use the typical fast magnums, such as the various 300s and 7mms, I've dumped a lot of the powders that may have been suitable, except one - that being RL-22. It proved itself in most of them as No.1, including the 340, 300s and 7 magnums, as well as one 270 Win (the only one I ever owned). I still have about 75% left in a 1-lb container, and will keep it just because. Last year (spring of 2020) I tried it in my .458 WIN Ruger No.1. For three shots, 75 grains behind the 465gr semi-hardcast, ignited by WLRM primers in Hornady cases, at 3.308" COL gave these instrumental results: 1570, 1541 and 1571. It was not tested for accuracy, but the velocity results were very close to what I hoped for. It merits another try, I think.
I.m trying to find a load that gives acceptable accuracy from that bullet in the Ruger with it.s .459" barrel. That bullet shot MOA from two .45-70s, and I flattened a bear with one of them. From the CZ550, I got a load that was acceptable at around 2100 fps. But being a relatively "hard" cast bullet it will not obturate enough like a softer cast bullet, so accuracy is a challenge. They're very good bullets, and I have about 200 of 'em -so want to put some to good use if possible. Another planned try is in using RL-17. That will slow them more than RL-15 (which gave over 2000 fps but v. poor accuracy) 75 grains of RL-15 and 75 grains of RL-22 and, finally 75 grains of RL-17. There is approximately a 400 fps drop from RL-15 to the same amount of RL-22. I'm thinking that RL-17 will about split the difference at somewhere between 1700 - 1800 fps. That would be an excellent load for a 465gr semi-hard cast. It has a calculated BC of .318 to .338, the front (nose) 1/3 is a bore rider, and a 1/4" flat tip. It was devastation on that bear at about 70 yards facing me. And, I've reason to believe that it never expanded at an impact velocity of just over 1700 fps. The bullet made exit below the sternum after initial contact somewhere below the neck. It took out the heart, that was not recognised as a heart, flooding the chest with blood. The exit was about caliber in size. The bear was a 6-footer from nose to tail. I was in a tree stand so the angle of the shot was somewhat downward, and the bear was in tall grass that hadn't been cut yet, so all I could see was head and part of the neck above the grass. I aimed for where I thought the heart would be.
I know that relatively low pressure will not help the cause, but I'm hopeful that low velocity might improve accuracy... we'll see.
I have a similar problem with a bunch of Berry's Bullets .459"/405-grain hardcast. They are super in the tighter-grooved .45-70 Gov't. SAAMI minimum groove for that is .456", and .457-458" is a common in-spec barrel. I had poor accuracy with that bullet in a .459"-grooved .458 WM at faster than 1400 fps, but I found that if I kept it under 1400 fps with AA-5744 (no filler needed), or whatever slower smokeless powder with a filler if needed to get it below 1400 fps, it shot close to 1 MOA for 3-shot group. Give that a try before you give up on your .459"/465-gr hardcast. Saint Bagwell could kill anything that walks with a 480-grain Lyman PH of relatively softcast (50:50 WW&Lead) at under 1300 fps MV.
Speaking of giving up, well, I am just going to stop dithering with the 450-gr TSX. Sumbuddy may try something else like a packed case of droptubed H335, but not me. I doubt I will ever do anything better than the following:
I will probably never improve on this either:
I reckon 83 grains of AA-2460 will be perfect with the 480-grain XTSX from Bubba. And I have a bunch of North Fork 450-grainers, SP softs and FN solids, that should be perfect with 82 grains of AA-2230.
Now the question is, will I use compressed H4895 or non-compressed AA-2230 with the 400-gr XTSX from Bubba ? But first I must do the duplexed BP and paper patch as previously laid out, and then the single ball in sabot and the shot capsule loads with Green Dot and Blue Dot respectively.
I will be deer hunting this year with the .461"/ 579-gr FNGC "Big Blue" hardcast at 3.340" COL, propelled by 41.5 grains of Blackhorn 209 with filler (+/- 1300 fps) and using the open "express sights" on my .458 WM Cabela's 50th Anniversary Winchester M70 Super Grade. She came in a replica 1961 cardboard box, from the Louisville, KY Cabela's, in 2013. Price was reduced after she waited two years for me to happen upon her soon as they opened the store in Loo-uh-vull. It was love at first sight. That load is zeroed at 85 yards with the low leaf sight, windage perfect, just as she came from the factory. I might eventually put the Near 25-MOA Picatinny on her, and a vernier sight on the heel of stock. She will stay under 10 pounds like that, might need to get a trigger job to make the 3-pound minimum trigger pull. That 579-grainer at 1300 fps will make a dandy gong ringer out to 600 yards, looking for 1000.
I really appreciate that advice -- I'm gonna give it a try. Now I have to get some 5744. A call will be made to one of my sources, I hope the response is positive. I'm looking forward to lobbing those 465s at about 1300 - 1400 fps.
In retrospect, my adventures with hardcast bullets in the .458 WM are quite hilarious. Not so funny when I was experiencing them.
I started with a box of 500 of Berry's Bullets, store-bought, 405-grainers, plain base, grease-grooved, blue-lubed from the factory. They measured .459" diameter and weighed 409 grains on average including the lube. BHN 20, by my Lee test kit.
46 grains of AA-5744 made them go 1884 fps (instrumental, 5-yards) from a 24" barrel of .459" groove, 1:14" twist. They were all KEYHOLED and shooting like buckshot in cylinder bore pattern.
36 grains of AA-5744 gave 1568 fps for 5-yard velocity, half made round holes, half made keyholes, pattern tightened to full choke.
26 grains of AA-5744 made them go barely supersonic but gave three-shot, sub-MOA group at 1182 fps MV, same rifle.
I settled for 30.0 grains of AA-5744, that gave a 1.5" group for 3 shots at 100 yards, MV = 1378 fps. I especially liked that load because it had a 5-shot ES of 10 fps and st.dev. of 3 fps.
Next bullet, same rifle:
Same 30.0-grain charge of AA-5744 (no filler) worked well with a .459"/485-gr Lyman RNGC, grease-lubed. Good accuracy and uniformity. Two different 5-shot strings chronographed with my Oehler 35P at 5 yards averaged 1335 fps and 1334 fps, 72 to 75 degrees F that day at the range. So for 10 shots I called it 1334.5 fps average = 1335 fps. Add 7 fps to correct to MV: 1342 fps MV
So use 30.0 grains of AA-5744 with your .459"/ 465-grainer and you will probably get >1350 fps and <1400 fps, with hunting accuracy. That ought to BAGWELL. My COLs were all short, 3.080" with 409-grainer, 3.180" with 485-grainer. F215 primer or WLRM primer, R-P brass or Hornady or WW-Super. Use whatever you have on hand and skip the trial and error wasting of bullets.
Now I know to use .461" hardcast bullets with smokeless powders for highest velocities in the .458 Winchester Magnum with .459" groove. But a .459" bullet at sub-1400 fps is cool beans from same rifle too.
I use 28grs AA-5744 for my 500gr cast loads in my 458 Lott.I thought I had time to go and shoot a bunch today but next time.I shoot offhand with open sights always and at 50yds out of my Ruger.The last couple of years I shot them out of my CZ 458WM.That shooting was fun and then my barrel stopped shooting.There is nothing like shooting the big bores offhand and with reduced loads.A double rifle would be more fun but too expensive to rebarrel.I am looking forward to start shooting more often and attending the Libby Safari challenge next year.
Why do you reckon your .458 WM CZ "stopped shooting" ? Was it lead fouling ? There are ways to handle that if it is a factor, with a .459" bullet in .459" groove.
The .461" hardcast is the way to go in a .458 WM, fast or slow, light or heavy:
I have no compulsion to JB Weld the Near base to the rifle. Simple installation, each fitted-length screw has a dab of blue thread locker on it as it comes from Mr. Near. Tightening the screws in order, 1-4, seemed to draw the recoil stop into full contact. No light passes between the recoil stop and rear of receiver ring. I'll let it go without glass bedding of the recoil stop. Amazing precision by both Near and the FN Winchester M70 factory. This 25-MOA Picatinny adds 4 oz to the rifle, and does not interfere with the "express sights."
I do believe "shootaway" (one of his multiple handles at the anchor baby's site) has reincarnated himself here.
Originally Posted by swiftshot
It stopped shooting because there is barely any lands left to engrave the already oversized bullet.
That was said only as shootaway could say it. He recommends a scrubbing with JB paste after every 20 rounds, even for .22 rimfires shooting only wax-lubed, soft lead bullets at standard velocities.
I figured out why the HODGDON ANNUAL MANUAL lists .458 Winchester Magnum loads but skips right over the .458 Lott.
Simple, as demonstrated by the Hornady lab data.
Just load the .458 Lott with same bullet at 3.600" COL as used in the .458 WinMag at 3.340" COL and use same powder charge and primer in both.
The tighter throat and shorter free-travel in the .458 Lott will give it 50 fps more velocity at 2,500 PSI higher velocity. Close enough. Just be careful not to exceed a maximum SAAMI .458 WinMag load (60,000 PSI) in a SAAMI .458 Lott. If you do, you will likely be exceeding the SAAMI MAP for the .458 Lott (62,500 PSI). Reduce powder charge by 10% and work up for the .458 Lott. Thus, there is no need for .458 Lott data. The .416 Remington Magnum has a SAAMI MAP of 65,000 PSI if the low-pressure SAAMI .458 WinMag is not exciting enough. If you cannot kill it with a .458/ 500-grainer at 2200 fps and 60,000 psi or less, maybe shootaway has been cleaning your barrel.
I thought today would be a good day to sight in my reloads for my next Sambar hunt so I was off early to do the deed!
My reloads consist of:
Winchester case 73gns Benchmark 2 (Benchmark) powder Woodleigh 550gn soft-point CCI mag primer Velocity = 2080fps OAL = 3.340"
These reloads are loaded to suit the mag of my Zastava M70 and these were chronographed from my 24" barrel.
I calculated the recoil of these loads and in my 9lb rifle they worked out to be a touch over 80ft/lbs. I can honestly say that shooting these off the bench was... invigorating!
Actually if I'm being truely honest these loads, shot through my rifle - off the bench, exceeded my recoil tolerance. Luckily it only took 8 shots to sight in but after that I was done! Shooting over the chronograph while standing wasn't too bad (still heavy though) but off the bench was tough work.
I reckon getting a fraction under 2100fps with a 550gn projectile in a .458 loaded to a length of 3.340" is good going and I doubt that a Lott would get much more. In fact on another forum, I had someone who shoots a Lott question my load - as he was getting about the same velocity for his rifle.
I sight this load in so it's zero'd at 150m, so it looks like this,
This is a pretty good trajectory out to 200m for such a heavy projectile and I cant wait to try it on game - especially a nice big Sambar! But I would feel supreme confidence with this load against nearly any game species that could be hunted - and surely by swapping the soft-point for a solid, elephant could be humanly taken.
A load like this, properly sighted in just inspires confidence while hunting, so keep your eyes peeled for a hunting report soon!
BadboyMelvin, beautiful rifle and illustration of Lottite thinking ! Buy a donkey ! Henceforth you shall be known as Sir Russ, Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Crusade for Truth, unless you renounce the title.
Sir Russ said:
"I had someone who shoots a Lott question my load - as he was getting about the same velocity for his rifle."
And he was probably doing it with either higher pressure or greater recoil or both than you were, if his barrel length and rifle weight were same as yours !
Corrected to MV you are indeed close to 2100 fps, with your 550-gr RNSN bullet BC of 0.340 and a chronograph distance of reasonable yardage. SD = .375 !
.458 Winchester Magnum: Woodleigh manual top-velocity load for 550-gr RNSN is same as your load, 2110 fps with 73.0 grains of ADI Bench Mark 2 aka Hodgdon's Extreme powder Benchmark.
.458 Lott: Woodleigh manual top-velocity load for 550-gr RNSN uses 81.0 grains of RL-15 for 2115 fps. OUCH ! 5 fps extra for a whole Lott more recoil with the heavier, slower powder charge.
Lottites are easily confused. They think because the brass is 0.3" longer and COL is 0.26" longer with the Lott, it has got to be running circles around the .458 WinMag. They totally discount throat effects, just plumb ignorant of them.
A plus: Benchmark is a much better powder than RL-15 when it comes to temperature stability and Lott-to-Lott variability.
If Woodleigh is loading to SAAMI standards, with a large American market, they are limiting their loads to: .458 WinMag: 3.340" and 60,000 PSI .458 Lott: 3.600" and 62,500 PSI That would be all the more charming for the .458 Winchester Magnum magnificence.
I suppose they could be loading to CIP standards, however: .458 WinMag: 3.340" and 4300 bar .458 Lott: 3.600" and 4300 bar 4300 bar is about 62,350 PSI for both. Still mighty charming for the Crusade.
BBM, Your .458 load above is the same velocity as my 400 grain .405 WCF load and I can assure you that it will take a Cape Buffalo.or similar sized game. Please do publish your hunt report.
Amen ! When a 400-gr Old X-Bullet will do better than any 500-gr soft nose, all with SAAMI .458 WM loadings, it may be time to step up to a 550-grain SN at 2100 fps. Even if a .458/ 500-grainer at 2000 fps will make a bloody big hole through anything.
Your blog was thought provoking, as usual. If you write it, I find it invariably interesting. I am itching to shoot cast bullets at 1300 fps, like Saint Bagwell did. If only I could shoot as well as he could, I could BAGWELL as he could.
Cast lead bullets: If you got 'em, smoke 'em, I mean shoot 'em. There may come a day when the new world order outlaws lead bullets. Then only outlaws will have lead bullets. Breaking Bad will mean cooking up a batch of lead bullets at home instead of meth. Casting lead bullets is addictive.
I never gave the Super Grade .458 WM a girl name. Maybe I just call her Cabela. Sounds female. Don't know the origin of the family name "Cabela." Googled and everybody is just guessing: Bohemian, Czech, Portuguese. Meaning: Everything from "beautiful goddess" to "horse hair." Sounds sort of Spanish. So I pull out a Spanish & English dictionary.
Cabal (adj.): exact, full, complete, perfect
Ca'bala (f. noun): intrigue, divination
Caballa (f. noun): mackerel (!)
Caballeri'a (f. noun): mount, horse, mule; cavalry; chivalry, knighthood
OK that does it, her name is Caballeri'a, Cabela for short.
Speaking of which, she will do fine as a standard SAAMI .458 WM, but could be easily converted to .458 WM+. The old M70 Classics from Connecticut have shorter extractors, the newer M70 by FN (SC or Portugal assembled) have slightly longer extractors, on the ones I have seen. Hopefully no potmetal spring steel here:
Whatever way she goes, Cabela needs her magazine box front wall reinforced so as to not get dented by bullet tips in recoil. This could be a steel plate soldered outside the box front, or merely tight contact with steel bed epoxy against the front wall of mag box.
Your blog was thought provoking, as usual. If you write it, I find it invariably interesting. I am itching to shoot cast bullets at 1300 fps, like Saint Bagwell did. If only I could shoot as well as he could, I could BAGWELL as he could.
Cast lead bullets: If you got 'em, smoke 'em, I mean shoot 'em. There may come a day when the new world order outlaws lead bullets. Then only outlaws will have lead bullets. Breaking Bad will mean cooking up a batch of lead bullets at home instead of meth. Casting lead bullets is addictive.
Sir Ron;
Today I went to the range - first time since late last Fall. I put together a few different loads but only shot the 465gr semi-hardcast. Thanks for the advise you gave to slow them to around 1400 using 5744. I didn't have any so went to William's Arms in Port Perry to pick up a can after having phoned to see if they had it. They did; ouch! For $74! Anyway, ya don't use much per load so it works out in cost about the same as "normal" loads.
I checked Lyman to see what they recommended, and it turned out that their 475gr cast over 34.5 grs 5744 was the most accurate at 1425 fps from a Ruger No.1. So I went with that load for the 465gr, new (unfired) Hornady brass, WLRM primers and COL @ 3.1" (crimped in the groove provided because I wanted a uniform start pressure). I only loaded five of those because I didn't want to waste a lot of powder and bullets if it didn't turn out well. Going from speeds of over 2000 fps down to about 1400 fps in a .458 or .45-70 is somewhat of a guessing game to get on target. No holes after four shots. I said "Lord, this is my last shot, so please, if you will, help me out here". I had been moving the crosshairs way down so then opened the action and sighted through the bore so that the hole in the muzzle was showing the top of the target covering the muzzle exit by exactly 1/2. I checked the crosshairs and they were dead center on the target. I squeezed it off and, voila, a .458" hole 3.375" over center! Of course, I can now adjust the load to about +1.5" at 50 and zero at 95 yards. So, I didn't get a group yet, but next time we'll see if a decent group shows up!
All went over the chronograph at 15'. The first was from a clean barrel and slightly slower than the others, but all-in-all they were very close to Lyman's results when corrected to MV. They were: 1391, 1403, 1405, 1419 and 1401. Corrected to MV = 1413 fps. Close enough. Very pleasant to shoot at about 14.5 ft-lbs free recoil and 10 fps recoil velocity. Rifle is 10.3 lbs with scope sans ammo.
There was a fun part over that last shot. I'd also taken my new-to-me 12ga and some of those Challenger slugs (492grs) In my old Mossberg with a 24" they registered 1610 fps. I figured from the 18" I might get 1550. Anyway, before shooting the last 465gr from the .458, I fired one of the slugs with the green dot front sight a few inches over center on the same target that yet hadn't any .458" holes. It registered 1484 fps (corrected to MV = 1503 fps) at +3.375" at 50 yds. Before pulling the trigger on the last 465gr, I wondered "Now that would be very ironic if my last 465gr went through the 12ga hole"! I'd still have no evidence that the .458 was on paper! Low and behold... it didn't go through the 3/4" hole of the slug, missing it by 3/4" from the left edge of the slug to the right edge of the .458", and at the exact same height over center! The 12ga slug was 3/4" right of center (measured to center of hole), and the .458" hole was 1/2" left of center.
Thought this might be of interest to you as it vindicates your suggestion, and may be of interest to some others.
Sir Bob, That was better than listening to a NASCAR race on the radio ! Thanks for the report. You seem to have a potentially good load. Yikes on the price of powder nowadays ! That is 1.057 cents per grain of powder! You might find best accuracy with less AA-5744 than 34.5 grains, depends on Grace ! My favorite load for Daisy would be 32 cents of powder per pop at that powder price. Your load is going to set you back 36.5 cents per shot. Handloading has never been more expensive ! Lately, primers are 4 or 5 times more expensive than I remember, if I get lucky and hoard some before they are snatched. Thank the DALDEDs, they make everything worse. Consider plywood prices. Double whammy on supply and demand. Supply down because of the covid mess. Demand up because of all the boarding-up of store front windows in DALDED-controlled localities where they encourage anarchy. Dumb A$$ Lying Democrat Evil Doers.
Or her gold-leafed floorplate could be replaced with a plain one, like from the Alaskan or All Weather, and her naked metal slipped into a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock, except for Sunday go to meetings in walnut, of course.
Went to public range Wednesday to fire the PP/duplexed-BP loads with Marcella (M70). Took Daisy (Ruger No. 1) along to finish off the 3 shots with Hornady brass and 83.0 grains of AA-2230. Her barrel was left as fouled 10 days ago by 16 rounds of TSX, stopped shooting when jammed by the Norma brass with 86.0 grains AA-2230 at 3.565" COL. So rounds 17, 18, and 19 were as follows, I will not push it any higher at 3.565" COL:
83.0 grains of AA-2230 Hornady Brass F-215 primer 3.565" COL 2493 fps instrumental, 5-yard, 3-shot mean 2504 fps MV for BC = .369 87 degrees F 3-shot extreme spread 3 fps, st. dev. = 1.6 fps
I cannot explain it except to say that when I saw the first two bullets make one hole at 50 yards, I got excited and pulled the third shot !
The sun was low and I used the auxilliary lighting on the Caldwell G2 chronograph.
I then discovered that I had left the bolt for the other rifle at home. So it was a 50-mile round trip for those three shots. Worth it though it was for the freakishly good results, the PP/duplexed BP loads will require another trip.
Sir Jerry did 2368 fps MV with the 500-gr TBSS in a 24" JES barrrel using 83.0 grains AA-2460 50 degrees F WW Super brass F-215 primer 3.545" COL KE = 6225 ft-lbs
Now we have 2504 fps MV with the 450-gr TSX in a 24" Ruger No. 1 factory barrel using 83.0 grains AA-2230 87 degrees F Hornady brass F-215 primer 3.565" COL KE = 6265 fps
The Hornady brass jumped out of the Ruger No. 1 chamber when the lever was dropped.
I consider both of those loads to be MAXIMUM for the .458 WM+ when limited to 3.565" COL. What are their pressures ? I do not know, except that they are at less pressure than would be required to equal them with a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Some cartridges with 65,000 PSI SAAMI MAP: .22-250 Remington .270 Winchester .300 Weatherby Magnum .338 Lapua Magnum .375 RUM .416 Remington Magnum
CIP homologation for the .338 Lapua Magnum allows it a PTmax of 4700 bar = 68,150 PSI
Now back to 480-grainers at 1300 fps to 2200 fps for gentlemanly and tropical loadings way less than 60,000 PSI, effective killers emulating the full range from BPCR to the .450 NE, with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
480-gr PH paper patched with duplexed BP, .458 WinMag
The Saint Bagwell bullet started off as a muzzleloader bullet for 1000-yard match shooting. It works in the Sharps 1874 .45-70 Govt. with 30" barrel, .458" groove, 1:18" twist: ~1300 fps MV with 66 grains of FFFg GOEX. It works in the .458 Winchester Magnum M70 with 23" barrel, .458" groove, 1:14" twist: 1488 fps MV with 12 gr IMR-SR4759 + 74 grains of FFg GOEX, at 88 degrees F.
Here is some muzzleloader data, assumed to be for percussion similar to the British Volunteer rifles that started the NRA in the UK in 1859:
Again the .458 Winchester Magnum does not disappoint. Or should we say that duplexed BP and paper patch with a lube cookie do not disappoint ? 88 degrees F 480-gr PH sized to .452" then paper-patched to .459": 3-shot group with 1 fps ES, st.dev. 0.6 fps:
Above is about 1.0 MOA at 50 yards. First three shots with the 480-grain PH, after 3 fouling shots with the 530-gr BACo. The scope was adjusted to an inch lower and a half inch left, then tried at 100 yards. Scope was adjust after first three wind-spread shots at 100 yards. Second 3-shot group at 100 yards is below, watching a wind gauge this time, it was about 0.50 MOA at 100 yards for three shots:
Finally, holding just above and 2 inches into the wind on an 8" gong at 200 yards, made it ring and swing with first shot from the PH.
I had to put the Caldwell G2 chronograph at 10 yards to get enough data, and there was still some lube and BP debris sprinkled on it, scant though it was. 7 yards is as far as the Oehler 35P wires will reach. Good enough.
BTW, the PH COL was 3.440", and that will easily eject if loaded single-shot style but not fired, in any standard .458 WM with 3.4" box. The .458 WM Super Grade will eject the bluntest nosed FN solid at 3.550" COL and the pointy 450-gr TSX at 3.565" COL if those are Loaded single-shot style but not fired.
BTBTW, the 530-gr BACo PP loaded to 3.580" COL worked well through the magazine of Marcella the M70 Classic .458 WM+ with 3.65" box length. MV for 3-shot average with same charge used with the PH: 1381 fps. The 480-grain PH paper-patched was about 100 fps faster, and more uniform !
BTBTBTW, I used a pretty tight taper "crimp" on all the 480-gr and 530-gr loads with paper patch. One cannot spin the bullets in the case with fingers, as often recommended for paper-patched. I only compressed the duplexed BP by about 0.3" before adding the lube cookie and seating the bullet.
Has anyone used Hodgdon CFE 223 powder in their .458? This powder seems to bring out the top velocities in many cartridges and I reckon it could be a really good powder to use in the mighty .458 If no-one has used it maybe someone could use Quickload to give a rough idea what we'd be looking at...? And as a added bonus, and I quote: "Being a spherical powder, metering is superbly accurate."
This could be worth a look? What do you guys reckon?
Sir Russ, we did a little bit on CFE 223 on this thread on 2/26/21 or then-abouts.
Same load and rifle specifics using Alliant Power Pro VARMINT:
Federal offers this SAAMI-compliant load data with VARMINT: Note the 500-gr TBSS at + 2200 fps and less than 3..340" and less than 60,000 PSI:
CFE 223 works great for cleaning your barrel. It requires greater recoil with heavier charges than can be done with favorites like AA-2230 and AA-2460 for same velocity, and may not get as high velocity as possible with those two AA powders. Use some CFE 223 to clean your rifle of TSX fouling ?
Everything is relative and it depends. Using 3.340" or lesser COL will allow you to get higher velocities with less powder.
Note the 90 grains of compressed ball powder with the .458 Lott at 3.580" COL to get over 2300 fps with the 500-gr TBSS. The same load could be used in the .458 WM+ at 3.575" COL. But those .458 Lott ballistics were beaten by Sir Jerry at 3.545" COL with only 83.0 grains of AA-2460 in his 24"-barreled .458 WM+.
QuickLOAD is very unreliable for the .458 WinMag. It makes no allowances for throat.
Best approximation with QuickLOAD for the .458 WIN is to pretend that the .458 WinMag has a case capacity of 108 grains of water instead of 95. 95 grains water is the default case capacity for the .458 WinMag in QuickLOAD.
Regarding fouling: The paper-patched, duplexed-BP loads with a grease cookie are the cleanest shooting loads I have ever experienced. It is like self cleaning with each shot. The soft Norma brass really seals the chamber nicely, no smoking of case necks or any leakage into the action. All the BP smoke goes out the barrel. The grease cookie keeps the BP fouling in the barrel soft. The paper patch of the next shot wipes it clean as a whistle. Those Norma cases sure cleaned up easily with soapy water too, barely dirty, inside only.
Now to find an accurate single-ball, squirrel load for the .458 WM, backed up with a shot-capsule load of #7-1/2, a most versatile birdshot, using Green Dot and Blue Dot powders, most likely. Single-shot loading of ball and shot so as not to shatter a protruding shot capsule in the magazine of a bolt action. Using Daisy will make sure I don't get carried away.
Then I want to do the .461"/480-gr hardcast FNGC at about 1300 to 1800 fps with AA-5744 and AA-2495, and 1800 to 2200 fps with all sorts of smokeless powders, Hodgdon Extreme and AA/Western Powders preferred. All those should be SAAMI compliant, not requiring any of the .458 WM+ super power use at all. Maybe the hardcast MV should be limited to 2200 fps for best bullet performance, even if the .458 WM can beat that MV.
Funny how when you turn the light on the Lottites scurry away.
I took my Ruger Lott-the one with the Krieger and the soldered on open sights to the range again for a final 50yd zero test.It shot right in the bullseye and is ready for a 3 day bear hunt next week.I am using a light load of 67grs H4895 behind a 550gr Woodleigh soft.If I shoot the bear I will post a pic on this thread of bear and all in celebration of the 458 Lott.
I took my Ruger Lott-the one with the Krieger and the soldered on open sights to the range again for a final 50yd zero test.It shot right in the bullseye and is ready for a 3 day bear hunt next week.I am using a light load of 67grs H4895 behind a 550gr Woodleigh soft.If I shoot the bear I will post a pic on this thread of bear and all in celebration of the 458 Lott.
Ah, yes, I remember that rifle well, from the anchor baby's website. It is a Ruger RSM .458 Lott that was possibly scrubbed into a smoothbore, hence the Krieger barrel. swiftshot = shootaway How was that done ? Got rid of the recoil plate contraption and put a Remington-style-washer primary recoil lug between Krieger barrel and action, and a secondary lug on the barrel ? I don't recall if that was ever explained. But I do recall that the screwed on sights had to be soldered after they loosened. I just wonder if swiftshot is going to leave the barrel fouled after the zero check, before his bear hunt, or will he give it a good scrubbing with JB paste ?
67 grains of H4895 with a 550-gr Woodleigh in the .458 Lott is 1 grain less powder than the starting load for a .458 WinMag. No worries, H4895 is approved for reduced loads down to 60% of the maximum load for the cartridge. swiftshot can go down to 46.2 grains of H4895. I would recommend he use a filler with his reduced load in the .458 Lott. There is going to be more than 0.3" height of air space over the powder, with 67 grains of H4895 in the .458 Lott. 68 grains of H4895 is not compressed in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN.
Q: What would the .458 Winchester Magnum say to the .458 Lott if cartridges could talk, as if brother to brother ?
A: "If hating me helps you hate yourself less, then I am there for you. That's what family is for."
Since her last cleaning, Daisy has fired 19 rounds of 450-gr TSX and was just starting to shoot up to snuff with the last 3 shots. She will not be cleaned of copper fouling until I have tried these loads for relative POA at 50 yards and and 100 yards:
450-gr TSX with 83.0 grains AA-2230 and 3.57" COL and 500-gr TBSS with 83.0 grains of AA-2460 and 3.55" COL
These will henceforth be known as the "Sir Jerry Soft & Solid Combo for the .458 Winchester Magnum." Will add that to my list of "Memorial Loads" along with the John Buhmiller .416 Rigby load and George Hoffman .470 Nitro Express load. Here's hoping gunner500 ain't dead, but Sir Jerry has been MIA for too long.
I don't think it has a recoil lug-it is free floating.I am not sure you can scrub the rifling off of a bore with JB.Perhaps you can do an experiment and see if it can be done.When I used very light loads with H4895 in my CZ 458WM things got really dirty but they worked fine-never used a filler.Yes you are correct the smith was hard headed and ignored my experiences with recoil and iron sights that moved.He just screwed them on on used red loctite to glue them.He screwed both rifles but listened to me on the third one and soldered everything.Now the third Ruger shoots awesome and has no issues with POI shifting all over the place many inches apart-neither does it have ugly black loctite showing on the sights..Here is my baby. O yes.Another thing that must be done in order for the Lott or WM to shoot accurately is to use red loctite on the guard screws and torque them down with a big wrench or ratchet.It is best to use hex screws for this but it can be done with slotted crews and a socket bit.
I took my Ruger Lott-the one with the Krieger and the soldered on open sights to the range again for a final 50yd zero test.It shot right in the bullseye and is ready for a 3 day bear hunt next week.I am using a light load of 67grs H4895 behind a 550gr Woodleigh soft.If I shoot the bear I will post a pic on this thread of bear and all in celebration of the 458 Lott.
Ah, yes, I remember that rifle well, from the anchor baby's website. It is a Ruger RSM .458 Lott that was possibly scrubbed into a smoothbore, hence the Krieger barrel. swiftshot = shootaway How was that done ? Got rid of the recoil plate contraption and put a Remington-style-washer primary recoil lug between Krieger barrel and action, and a secondary lug on the barrel ? I don't recall if that was ever explained. But I do recall that the screwed on sights had to be soldered after they loosened. I just wonder if swiftshot is going to leave the barrel fouled after the zero check, before his bear hunt, or will he give it a good scrubbing with JB paste ?
67 grains of H4895 with a 550-gr Woodleigh in the .458 Lott is 1 grain less powder than the starting load for a .458 WinMag. No worries, H4895 is approved for reduced loads down to 60% of the maximum load for the cartridge. swiftshot can go down to 46.2 grains of H4895. I would recommend he use a filler with his reduced load in the .458 Lott. There is going to be more than 0.3" height of air space over the powder, with 67 grains of H4895 in the .458 Lott. 68 grains of H4895 is not compressed in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN.
Q: What would the .458 Winchester Magnum say to the .458 Lott if cartridges could talk, as if brother to brother ?
A: "If hating me helps you hate yourself less, then I am there for you. That's what family is for."
Buy a donkey for the Crusade. With your keen appreciation for humor, knighthood may be in your future. That line about the .458 Winchester Magnum always being there to ease the self hate of the .458 Lott was stolen from the TV series YELLOWSTONE. More like strong brother (.458 WinMag) comforting his weak sister (.458 Lott).
About swiftshot scrapping the integral quarter rib of an RSM .458 Lott for a Krieger barrel and a Remington-washer-type recoil lug: That qualifies as some kind of hate crime !
Rifle posed with trash to properly reflect collector value of that .458 Lott Ex-RSM. I have a .416 Rigby RSM I shot my first cape buffalo with, superbly accurate from the factory. To treat it like swiftshot did to his .458 Lott would be like fingernails on a chalkboard.
A more interesting rifle and ammo by Sir Jerry. He ain't dead ! Notice the high class Bagwell Bowie drawing attention and pointing to the rifle:
That is the elephant-whisperer 500-gr TBSS with 83 grains of AA-2460 for +2350 fps from the 24" JES barrel, and the buffalo-whisperer 450-gr TSX with same powder charge for a tropical +2400 fps from same rifle belonging to Sir Jerry. Sir Bob's charge of 84 grains of H335 will do the same. All loads well under 3.6" COL. The 450-grain TSX will still be well over 1800 fps considerably past 300 yards. I consider 1600 fps adequate for expansion with that bullet. That is surely a 300-yard elk, bison, and eland load. Good for any bear, buffalo or lion at proper DG range.
If you know what you are doing you don't need a recoil lug on the barrel.By that I mean tightening and locking your guard screws.If you don't you will crack the stock.How many stocks have you cracked, Riflecrank? But you still have not learned and have to use an ugly rifle.
Good stuff Sir Ron, many Thanks for posting the pics, i separated and assigned 110 sticks of old WW-Super brass to the 458 Win Mag+, the brass in the basket was just full length resized and trimmed to 2.495 inch, after de-burring and tumbling Fed-215 primers were sunk in all cases, both loads were below 2.565" overall length, they go in and out of the magazine and chamber like greased glass.
A funny thought occurred at the bench after loading 50 rounds of the 500gr TBSS at 2350+ fps, i could spend a lifetime of wages simply hunting elephants with those 50 rounds alone, the 450gr TSX's at 2418 fps landing +3 at 100, zero at 200, and 10 inches down at 300 would indeed handle any large plains game, elk, moose, big bear, etc to 300 yards, they're still packing north of 1850 fps at that range, both loads took 83gr AA-2460 powder.
I loaded the belly with 500gr TBS solids and one 450 TSX, strapped on the Saint Bagwell Damascus Bowie and a little bobtail Commander in 45 ACP, had a nice walk up the mountain to check the water level on a new pond i had built for the critters that reside there, the rifle carries great and points lightning fast, it'll be fun hunting that one in Africa, any plains game to 300 with the scope, and buffalo up close with the irons after a couple quick twist of the Talley lever rings.
AA-2460 is my favorite for tropical loads with 480-grainers. The Western Powders data showed AA-2460 gives higher velocity with lower pressure than AA-2230 with 500-gr Hornady RNSN. That was with 74.0 grains AA-2460 at 3.305" COL, 24" barrel, F-215 primer, WIN case, 2192 fps, 52,864 psi, minimally compressed. Compare that to 72.0 grains AA-2230 at 3.305" COL, 24" barrel, F-215 primer, WIN case, 2159 fps, 53,808 psi, no compression. Over 2400 fps with 450-gr TSX at no more than 3.57" COL is a winner, using AA-2460. No need to worry about pressure in tropical climates. Lower pressure than same load in a .458 Lott with 2.8" brass:
The .458 Lott brass has to be trimmed to 2.760" to allow seating of the 450-gr TSX within the SAAMI spec COL of 3.600" using the front cannelure, which is positioned to optimize the .458 Winchester Magnum. Barnes Bullets' Mama didn't raise any fools.
When the .458 WM and .458 Lott are loaded to the same COL, the .458 Winchester Magnum wins. Either higher velocity or lower pressure, or a little bit of both. THROAT THROAT THROAT.
I will be shooting both of Sir Jerry's loads in my 24" Ruger barrel next time out with the .458 WM+. Then try them in that 23" McGowen that is a little tighter in the groove. Don't really need any more velocity than that.
I believe those loads will serve us and any others that want to try them very well Sir Ron, had the hots for AA-2230 for a long while to put under the 450gr TSX's, but, could never find any, now, in the interest of simplicity and 'not' worrying about the extra 50+ fps i'll happily live with lower pressure using AA-2460 for both loads in the 458 WM+.......plus, old powder buddy has me two pounds of AA-2460 stashed, i'll grab t in town Friday.
A small world indeed Sir Ron, i too have an RSM in 416 Rigby, bought it in the early to mid 90's, first thing i did was take it to 'Smith and have him full length steel bed everything from tang to forearm tip to bottom metal, i must have fired two thousand rounds out of that rifle dreaming of Africa, 'Smith said i completely roasted and blew the throat out of the rifle, it and a 50-90 Sharps are the only two rifles i've ever owned that have whisker burns on the side of the buttstocks!
If you dare, or have interest, i could send you a pic of what that fin rifle has become ; ]
BTW, if i have a buddy with a 458 Lott, and he could chamber one of my 500gr TBSS at 2350+ fps, would that load be safe for his rifle? or too hot? thanks.
... If you dare, or have interest, i could send you a pic of what that fin rifle has become ; ]
Pics of your .416 Rigby RSM would warm the cockles of my heart. Buzz Charlton had one he wore all the blue off of with his hands and the wood finish off with his whiskers, guiding elephant hunters. Might also give swiftshot some pointers on how to show some respect. Red Loc-Tite on the action screws does not a bedding job make.
BTW, if i have a buddy with a 458 Lott, and he could chamber one of my 500gr TBSS at 2350+ fps, would that load be safe for his rifle? or too hot? thanks.
Your .458 WM+ loads with .458 WM brass will not be safe in your buddy's .458 Lott. He will not be able to equal them unless he runs a SAAMI .458 WM reamer into his chamber up to a stop at the belt.
Then he will have a .458 Lott Like Jack Built, capable of equaling the mighty .458 Winchester Magnum, QUITE UNLIKE THE SAAMI .458 LOTT OF SWIFTSHOT'S FANTASIES:
Who needs AA-2230 if he has some AA-2460 and can load to 3.6" COL with the long-enough bullets ? Oh, yeah, AA-2230 might be gooder with varmint bullets.
Sir Hannay, You are now "entitled." Sir Jerry has tapped you on the shoulder with his Bagwell Bowie. Congratulations on your Knighthood in the Crusade for Truth. Saint Bagwell has left his chair at the Round Table, and it is leaned forward against the table, open in memoriam. Take your pick of the seats we have left. Congratulations on your immediate success.
LOL, more good work indeed Sir Ron, i'll tell bud about the reamer, he still doesn't believe the speeds i'm getting with 500 grains in my 458 WM+
I told him to go buy two new Ruger #1's, one in 458 WM, the other in 458 Lott, if i couldn't kick his ass using rifles on the same platform i'd buy them both from him plus give him a grand, no word yet!
I'll send you a couple pics in a bit of the old RSM that was a fine 416 Rigby
OOPS, i thought Sir Hannay had already been knighted, i may not possess the seniority for knighting yet.
LOL, more good work indeed Sir Ron, i'll tell bud about the reamer, he still doesn't believe the speeds i'm getting with 500 grains in my 458 WM+
That 500-gr TBSS is ideal for a .458 WM+. Slick bronze jacket with a cannelure in the right place and a thick FN. Bonded lead core, short length for weight. Low pressure for foot-lbs realizable and all fitting nicely inside a 3.6" box.
I told him to go buy two new Ruger #1's, one in 458 WM, the other in 458 Lott, if i couldn't kick his ass using rifles on the same platform i'd buy them both from him plus give him a grand, no word yet!
That is a superb version of Cowboy Poker right there ! That is an offer that every Lottite should receive.
I'll send you a couple pics in a bit of the old RSM that was a fine 416 Rigby
Great !
OOPS, i thought Sir Hannay had already been knighted, i may not possess the seniority for knighting yet.
Perfectly cricket, for a Knight to Knight another, as long as Sir Hannay acknowledges acceptance. We sit at a Round Table after all, one for all and all for one, and that one is King .458 Winchester Magnum. Sir Hannay has got to want it ... And we can always get a bigger table than the twelve-seater. We do have a roll call coming up, will see if Sir Hannay accepts.
Sir Jerry has a tip for swiftshot. Got a shot-out Ruger RSM ? This is a lot better than rebarreling to .458 Lott: Rebore to .505 Gibbs:
I am guessing that .416 Rigby of Sir Jerry was a Gen-2 with 24"-long, "heavy" barrel having muzzle diameter under the front sight band of 0.810", same as my late 1990's .416 Rigby. Perfect barrel profile for a .505 Gibbs. Since he shot "thousands" of 400-grainers at 2700 fps to erode the throat, he gets a gold star for putting the integral quarter rib to further use, instead of scrapping it like swiftshot ! I would love to find a .375 H&H Gen-3 RSM with the 23"-long, 0.750" muzzle diameter, factory barrel and have it rebored for a .458 WM+ with integral quarter rib !
To paraphrase what Mother Theresa said about people, some rifle cartridges are a blessing and others are a lesson. A blessing: The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. A lesson: The SAAMI .458 Lott.
swiftshot should consider this throwdown by Sir Jerry to his Lottite acquaintance:
"I told him to go buy two new Ruger #1's, one in 458 WM, the other in 458 Lott, if i couldn't kick his ass using rifles on the same platform i'd buy them both from him plus give him a grand, no word yet!"
Some people are a blessin' and some need a lesson.
My sights are better than the original ones.The sight insert is especially fitted to the sight base and needs to be drifted with a soft hammer and a soft metal piece to adjust windage.No glue is needed to hold it in place and the cheap screws on the original sights are worthless.The sights you see in the pic are only found on twenty thousand dollar rifles and that is if you are lucky and insist on them.I don't chicken out and use telescopes on my beautiful rifles-I get the job done the way it should be.I sometimes have to fight with smiths who hate me for this.
Sir Hannay, You are now "entitled." Sir Jerry has tapped you on the shoulder with his Bagwell Bowie. Congratulations on your Knighthood in the Crusade for Truth. Saint Bagwell has left his chair at the Round Table, and it is leaned forward against the table, open in memoriam. Take your pick of the seats we have left. Congratulations on your immediate success.
Thanks Sir Ron. Now, if I can get recovered from rotator cuff surgery, I hope I'll be able start shooting the 458 again!
Sir Hannay, Welcome. Do that PT and get well soon ! Fire when ready !
Here is a reminder to those who think it is funny that a perfectly safe .458 WM+ load might be excessive in a SAAMI .458 Lott even when both the 2.5" and 2.8" brass cases are fired in the same rifle platform, like in Sir Jerry's challenge to the Lottite, using a Ruger No. 1 .458 Winchester Magnum (SAAMI chamber) and a Ruger No. 1 .458 Lott (SAAMI chamber) :
"Throat Jump" is the distance from case mouth to where the leade has tapered down to .458" diameter in the lands, the start of bullet bearing with a .458-caliber bullet.
One may fix a .458 Lott by running that .458 Winchester Magnum reamer into it, with a stop at the belt. Jack Lott would approve. Unfortunately, he had passed on to The Happy Hunting Ground before Art Alphin designed the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Sir Jerry has a tip for swiftshot. Got a shot-out Ruger RSM ? This is a lot better than rebarreling to .458 Lott: Rebore to .505 Gibbs:
I am guessing that .416 Rigby of Sir Jerry was a Gen-2 with 24"-long, "heavy" barrel having muzzle diameter under the front sight band of 0.810", same as my late 1990's .416 Rigby. Perfect barrel profile for a .505 Gibbs. Since he shot "thousands" of 400-grainers at 2700 fps to erode the throat, he gets a gold star for putting the integral quarter rib to further use, instead of scrapping it like swiftshot ! I would love to find a .375 H&H Gen-3 RSM with the 23"-long, 0.750" muzzle diameter, factory barrel and have it rebored for a .458 WM+ with integral quarter rib !
Thanks for posting the pics Sir Ron, that old bruiser sitting on the stump with 600gr Woodleighs at the ready, these loads run 2150 fps, i have taken both to 2500 fps with H-4831 and Retumbo, recoil is horrendous, it broke the cams in two leupold 1.5-5 scopes, it is now an iron sight only rifle, got a nice ivory bead installed from NECG, it looks nice in low light and peering into brush, done the max loads to test stock bedding and oversize crossbolt installation, appears the stock is well protected from recoil, the loads at 2150 will do on any animal worldwide and much easier to shoot
That last pic is showing the blue robbed from that grip cap from many firm grips as i was torching the throat while it was a 416 Rigby, now a 505 Gibbs and nearing 60 years old, i can assure you i'll not torch the throat on a 505!
Will be nice to see your speeds and accuracy with all bullets loaded over 83gr AA-2460 Sir Ron, it may well end up being the "do all/end all" powder for my 458 WM+
Alrighty then, Sir Jerry. Below are the ones that are getting tried with 83.0 grains of AA-2460 in Daisy the .458 Ruger No. 1 with 24" factory barrel. The COLs and BOLs may be considered +/- 0.005" when they are shown as rounded to the nearest 1/100th inch. All the brass cases used were selected for exactly 2.500" length, for recipe specifications. The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum has a chamber length of 2.520", so I am happy to make trim-to-length 2.500", and maximum case length for .458 WM+ handloads is 2.505":
That last one is the safest one for any Lottites trying to shoot .458 WM+ ammo in a SAAMI .458 Lott chamber, because they will not even be able to chamber the round. The other four rounds might possibly fit into the chamber of a SAAMI .458 Lott, so the caution still applies:
Man that'll work Sir Ron, i've been pulled off this forum two days in a row, honey do's, gardening, yard work etc, etc, you know, the time of year, in honor of the Crusade of Truth for 458 WM+ and you graciously sending me a lifetime supply of 458 cal 450gr TSX bullets, i have selected the 458 WM+ and my little 303 British double rifle for my next trip up to the Limpopo for a 10 day Safari.
PH says the Red Hartebeest hang out in the open, and be prepared for a shot of up to 300 yards, 450gr TSX's leaving at 2418 fps from the 458 WM+ will easily handle that chore, cant wait to get started, the little double will be used on one of two close targets of opportunity.
I'm leaving tomorrow morning at 2am for a Sambar hunt - and I'll have the .458 with me!
Will finally be trying out the 550gn Woodleighs to see how they go on game... but at just under 2100fps I think we all know what the outcome will be...
I know a Sambar deer isn't a buffalo but it'll have to do for now..
So hopefully by lunchtime tomorrow I'll have a field report for you!
I didn't get the bigger bear but at least I got this one. The Lott 67grs H4895/550gr Woodleigh dropped him in his tracks and made a fist size exit hole. I shot him last evening after a third night in the blind. Hunting spring black bear reminded me Jim Corbett waiting in his blind on a tree top for a man eating tiger. This blind too was up on a tree-it was a beautiful and comfortable blind.
swiftshot means "handloads" not "handholds," I'd guess, in his question to Sir Spruce.
Great varmint hunting by swiftshot, proving that the .458 does all, not too big for small varmints ! He took that one with a SAAMI .458 Lott that he handloaded to less than a starting load in the SAAMI .458 WM.
Here is a use of the photo from Sir Russ to illustrate the maximal SAAMI .458 WM load with Benchmark that he is using on Sambar, with the same bullet swiftshot used on the varmint. I call that versatile !
I found two boxes of Hornady Superformance 500-gr DGX Bonded .458 WM ammo at Knob Creek, and one box of Winchester Super-X 510-gr RNSN .458 WM gathering dust at Biff's Gun World on Dixie Highway, Monday. That is a heck of a way to collect Hornady and Winchester brass for the .458 WM, but one can never have too much of that. But I have lots of Hornady .458 Lott brass to cut down to 2.500" if needed. Lots of Winchester .375 H&H to blow out to .45-cal too. Jack Lott did it for the 2.8" case, so it if that was shortened to 2.5" the necks would likely not be as thinned. If I ever get really desperate I have plenty of R-P stuff too, in .375 H&H and .416 RM to neck up, blow out, and shorten to 2.5". Federal cases too. I am saving the Norma .458 WM brass for paper-patched bullets and duplexed BP. Very interesting times we live in, due to the Chinese curse and the DALDED facilitators.
Sir Ron, headed out to the shop to finish loading the primed sticks of new old stock WW-Super brass with the 450gr TSX's and 83gr AA-2460, 2418 fps says Cape Buffalo at 5 yards and ANY plains game animal to a long 300, installed the old Talley steel bases and lever rings that hold the same 2.5-8 Leupold when the rifle was a 375 AI, the scope and mounting hardware have been fail-safe for hundreds of rounds, up to an including 270gr TSX's at 3100 fps.
Nifty little double rifle, a .300 Flanged What ? Nifty .458 WM+ also, that will be a better killer than anything of larger bore or with longer brass, for many reasons.
Whewww, date night with little Wife, sorry Sir Ron, i forgot about that, many Thanks for posting the pics, the little double is an RB Rodda bar action, top lever, rebounding hammer rifle in 303 British, with 28" first year fluid steel barrels, water table says 215 grain max bullet 38 grain riflite powder, my guesstimation that 41gr Rl-15 under the 215 Woodleighs may equate to 38gr Rifllite is true as the bullets shoot to beautiful sight regulation at 2163 fps.
A great little rifle, it's position in the photo is absolutely correct as the 458 WM+ will indeed support all the little doubles shortcomings.
These two will accompany Wife and me on our next trip across the big salt pond, targets of opportunity and maybe even another Cape Buffalo should a fine example be found, Thanks again Sir.
I have a question for you to have a better grip on the bullet could you use 458 lot brass and keep the over all length so it would fit in the magazine of your regular 458 rifle ?
Sir Jerry, You better be wining and dining Her Ladyship as often as possible if she is inclined toward Africa. I bet she shoots like Annie Oakley with that .303 British Rodda RB DR too. Long live the Queen !
Here is the velocity check on your ammo (and a few other bullets) in a 24" factory Ruger No. 1 barrel. 83.0 grains of AA-2460 with all bullets. Will chronograph 5 shots of each and some 500-gr DGS Hornady Superformance factory ammo as a control, and as the fouler.
Notice I changed the Woodleigh 480-gr HYDRO to 3.58" COL instead of 3.56". Makes a nicer staircase of COLs. The 480-gr DGX Bonded is a 100% LR with droptube filling, not compressed at 3.56" COL, 83.0 grains of AA-2460. All the other loads with same charge are compressed after droptube filling. All are crimped tight, locked in place until fired.
The 450-gr TSX with longest seating depth of 0.450" is most compressed, and it should be seated gradually with several runs in and out of the seater die, pushing the bullet down in steps so as to avoid bulging the case below the bullet. The AA-2460 being all perfect little spherical grains can take to compression well. Might even end up looking like AA-2230 with enough compression to flatten some of those perfect little spheres.
I have a question for you to have a better grip on the bullet could you use 458 lot brass and keep the over all length so it would fit in the magazine of your regular 458 rifle ?
No. Brass that is 2.520" long will be headbutting the end of the SAAMI .458 WM chamber. That is where the chamber chamfers down from .483" diameter (chamber minimum) at a 45-degree slant until the leade starts at .469" diameter and continues the taper at a 0-degree, 29-minutes and 30-seconds until it blends into bore diameter. Magic. Maximum brass diameter at 2.500" length is allowed to be 0.481" diameter.
Cut off that .458 Lott brass to exactly 2.500" and let it grow to 2.505" before trimming to 2.500". It will still have plenty of chamber room to stretch in length and expand in diameter so as not to pinch the bullet and jack up pressures upon firing.
The SAAMI .458 Lott chamber is only 2.810" long for 2.800" brass length. The SAAMI .458 WM chamber is a generous 2.520" long for 2.500" brass length. Better keep that .458 Lott brass trimmed religiously. Like I said, trim it to 2.500" and fire it in a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. That is a lot safer practice.
OK, canuckistan, we still have seats at the Round Table. What do you want to be called as a knight in the Crusade for Truth, Sir Canuck or what ?
And happy 4th of July to all ! I did my fireworks yesterday. The Labradar is sweet ! The genius Son of a Gunsmith, who is himself a master machinist working on classified projects (he would have to kill me if he told me what) kindly operated his Labradar for me as I banged off 6 rounds of SAAMI .458 WM factory loads and 25 rounds of handloads. Very kind of that young man in contributing his valuable time to the Crusade. I might have forgotten to aim sometimes in my desire to not tie him up too long, but the Labradar data was spectacular. I will give the MV results first. I have the 100 yard velocities too, for all 31 shots, which may be used for BC estimates. Turning the page now to give this momentous data a place at the top of a page ...
All handloads with 83.0 grains AA-2460 at 80 degrees F 2 factory loads shot to foul the barrel and as control Bullet weights: 450-gr, 480-gr, 500-gr, 510-gr Ruger No. 1 factory barrel with SAAMI .458 WM chamber 24" length barrel, 0.459" groove diameter by slugging, 1:14" twist, of course ...
The factory loads: Hornady DGS 500-gr 3 shots had st.dev. of 11.1 fps, ES of 19 fps, 3-shot ave MV = 2140 fps. Winchester RNSN 510-gr 3 shots had st.dev. of 32.6 fps, ES 65 fps, 3-shot ave MV = 2035 fps. The DALDEDs or Lottites must still be doing the QA work at the Winchester ammo factory. The handloads were much more uniform and faster in MV.
The slow factory loads shot about 9-10" high at 100 yards, The faster handloads shot low, POI below POA at 100 yards, except for the Woodleigh Hydro that had POI above POA, despite being fastest load of all tested. Funny, could it be barrel whip in the fat-barreled Ruger No. 1 ? Anyway the HYDRO 480-grainer at 2468 fps MV shot much lower than the slow factory loads did, which speaks to less barrel time and less muzzle rise in recoil before the bullet the bullet exits the muzzle, as usual.
The loads could be reduced by a couple of grains or more of powder looking for accuracy loads. The most uniform was the 480-grain DGX Bonded with 5-shot st.dev. of only 2.6 fps, which is the only load that is not compressed after droptube filling. That is something to consider. I will also consider the above test loads with 83.0 gr AA-2460 to be my maximums in Daisy. They are .458 WM+ loads that the .458 Lott cannot beat.
I would zero that 450-gr TSX at 200 yards, and use it out to +300 yards, as Sir Jerry said, about 2.5" high at 100 yards. Then the 500-gr TBSS would work at shorter ranges.
Swiftshot, Daisy is 41 years old. She came to be my pet early last year. Her previous owner said he shot a lot of cast bullets with her, but I have no idea of his count.
A couple of soaks with WIPE OUT and some patches on a plastic bristle brush take her back to bare.
Don't worry, I do not scrub her with JB Paste after every 20 rounds as someone at the anchor baby's site once recommended. She is a replacement for my first "big bore," a Ruger No. 1 .458 WM of 1984 purchase in Blairstown, MO, from John Wall Mercantile. I foolishly traded that one off due to Lottite brainwashing before I achieved enlightenment. Never again ! Daisy will do it all.
I did use J-B WELD instead of Loc-Tite on the screws in her quarter rib attachment to barrel, but never any JB paste in her bore, no way.
Did you use handholds? If so what load and bullet?
Sorry for the time lag. My best was the 300 gr X bullet @2700 fps mv. Softball size hole completely through the bear. I think I got one with the 350 gr Speer soft nose flat nose. @ 2500 fps . Similar results. Dead bears on the ground before the rifle is fully risen in recoil.
Velocity check in Daisy of Sir Jerry's Safari Ammo:
Above trajectory assumes a 1.75" sight height, centerline of bore to centerline of scope.
Sir Ron;
Those numbers from Daisy are amazing! Not sure if I'll go there with Grace, but she did 2353 fps from the 480 DGX and 82 grs H4895.
Thanks for those "revelations" for the Ruger #1 in .458 Win Mag - one load (480 Hydro) attaining over 6400 ft-lbs at the muzzle!!!!!
I now have to do a test for my scope (Nikon 2 - 8 x 32) to verify that its still good. It has taken quite a pounding over the past several years from the Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT and now the Ruger # 1 in .458.
For that, I'll use some 300 TSX's and 75 grs of H4198 at about 2750 fps. That load was shooting sub-moa. And, if the scope's good, and I can find more 300gr TSX's, that will become my go-to load. Modest pressure and recoil, plus flat shooting. It's just as accurate at about 2960 fps but I don't need that for anything. Actually the numbers for three shots were: 2958, 2961, and 2959; corrected to MV = 2978, 2981 and 2979. Avg KE = 5913 ft-lbs.
Bears, big or small, are pretty soft targets compared to buffalo and elephant. Phil Shoemaker and Finn Aagaard were both impressed by the 400-gr X-bullet of yore, since discontinued. At no more than 2300 fps in a SAAMI .458 WM load they reportedly were superior to any .458"/500-510-gr soft nose, even TB Bearclaw. That 450-gr TSX at 2459 fps and +6000 ft-lbs will do even better. On a buffalo it will be interesting to see if it stops on the offside hide or pokes on through.
Here are the "softs" that I have had stopped on broadside shots on buffalo or moose:
.375"/ 300-gr Swift AF at 2500 fps MV, 50-yard impact on water buffalo (.375 H&H)
.416"/ 350-gr X-Bullet at 2700 fps MV, 100-yard impact on water buffalo (.416 Rigby)
.423"/ 380-gr North Fork SP at 2526 fps MV, 80-yard impact on 1300-pound bison (.404 Jeffery)
.458"/ 500-gr Old Hornady RNSN at 2150 fps MV, 50-yard impact on moose (shed jacket) (.458 WM)
.458"/ 500-gr RNSN, .460 Wby factory load claimed 2700 fps MV, 50-yard impact on water buffalo (bullet disintegrated) (.460 Wby)
.510"/ 570-gr XLC at 2400 fps MV, 50-yard impact on 1632-pound bison, repeated post mortem at 25 yards (.510/460 Wby)
.510"/ 450-gr GSC HV at 2650 fps MV, 75-yard impact on cape buffalo (.500 Mbogo 3-Inch)
Here are the solids that have zipped right through buffalo whether through both shoulders broadside or on Texas Heart Shot from stern to stem:
.416"/ 380-gr GSC FN at 2500 fps MV, 50-yard impact on cape buffalo, both shoulders (.416 Rigby)
.510"/ 570-gr GSC FN at 2350 fps MV, 75-yards impact on bison, Texas Heart Shot exited on the run, and repeated at 25-yards for Texas Tonsillectomy post mortem, exited again (.510/460 Wby)
The .458"/ 500-gr TBSS at 2350 to 2400 fps MV ought to zip through a buffalo from any angle at 25 to 75 yards. I think it will be superior to the .510"/ 570-grain GSC FN on penetrating ability:
Correction on above photo, should read 75 yards on the run. The reason he was shot on the run was because the 570-gr XLC hit him broadside in the shoulder at 50 yards and knocked him over, but he jumped up and ran 25 yards going away before I could hit him again in the rump. He went down and stayed down with the Texas Heart Shot. After he was dead, I shot him again with both of those bullets at same respective angles as the first two, soft and solid but at closer range, 25 yards, just to test the bullets. Same results except the XLC was expanded more, and the FN solid exited both times. Both bullets were propelled by the same 110 grains of RL-15. 2400 fps XLC 570-grainer, 2350 fps GSC FN 570-gr solid.
Yep, this was me 19 years ago in full-blown .458 Winchester Magnum Denial, like Ross Seyfried and Terry Wieland:
I am older and wiser now. I prefer the .458 Winchester Magnum now, for many reasons, not least of which is that it will kill as well as any sporting rifle on any game that might come along, plus it is easier to both carry and to shoot than anything of larger caliber or brass length.
Those numbers from Daisy are amazing! Not sure if I'll go there with Grace, but she did 2353 fps from the 480 DGX and 82 grs H4895.
Thanks for those "revelations" for the Ruger #1 in .458 Win Mag - one load (480 Hydro) attaining over 6400 ft-lbs at the muzzle!!!!!
I was amazed too. One thing to consider is that the bronze and brass bearing surfaces are slicker than the gilding metal, and the gilding metal may be slicker than the pure copper. The HYDRO and TBSS were both faster than I expected, and both delivered over 6400 ft-lbs from the same powder charge. The highest coefficient of friction bullets, TSX and XTSX both delivered just over 6000 ft-lbs. Coincidence ?
I now have to do a test for my scope (Nikon 2 - 8 x 32) to verify that its still good. It has taken quite a pounding over the past several years from the Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT and now the Ruger # 1 in .458.
For that, I'll use some 300 TSX's and 75 grs of H4198 at about 2750 fps. That load was shooting sub-moa. And, if the scope's good, and I can find more 300gr TSX's, that will become my go-to load. Modest pressure and recoil, plus flat shooting. It's just as accurate at about 2960 fps but I don't need that for anything. Actually the numbers for three shots were: 2958, 2961, and 2959; corrected to MV = 2978, 2981 and 2979. Avg KE = 5913 ft-lbs.
Bless your Nikon. Daisy was wearing one too. My only suggestion is to check all the screws and studs holding the quarter rib onto the barrel. Make sure they are tight and stay that way. I learned by loosening one on a .475 Linebaugh Ruger No. 1.
Red Loc-Tite or J-B Weld if the factory did not do it. They neglected it on the above 6 lbs-13oz bare-weight rifle, which has a long throat from the factory, the secret to the mighty-mite power of that .475 Linebaugh rifle.
The 9-pound bare-weight Ruger No. 1 is the perfectly balanced and portable shooter for any load possible as a .458 WM+ or SAAMI.
That is a big Bison! Enjoyed the post, so I will contribute.
I have taken two bison , but only one running. That was a spooked cow running left to right at 45 yards when it broke cover. Rifle was 1886 .458 2.4 African load - 450 grain solid at 2150 fps through both shoulders - BANG tumble down head over heels. It was filmed, but the film is boring with preface and all just for the shot and tumble, and shouts from guide. Full shoot through- bullet not recovered.
That is a big Bison! Enjoyed the post, so I will contribute.
I have taken two bison , but only one running. That was a spooked cow running left to right at 45 yards when it broke cover. Rifle was 1886 .458 2.4 African load - 450 grain solid at 2150 fps through both shoulders - BANG tumble down head over heels. It was filmed, but the film is boring with preface and all just for the shot and tumble, and shouts from guide. Full shoot through- bullet not recovered.
Noted: .458"/ 450-gr solids at 2150 fps will pass through buffalo. Use caution when herd shooting. I bet it was an FN. Something like a North Fork or what make ?
If you want to be a knight in the Crusade for Truth of the .458 Winchester Magnum, it is yours to accept, take it or leave it. That and 5 bucks will buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks.
Sir Jerry can tap you on the shoulders with the flat of his Bagwell Bowie if you require the full ceremony. Sir Charles ?
Funny thing, the tighest grouping of three shots during the spraying of bullets before the Labradar came with the 480-gr XTSX, Bubba-tuned to within +/- 0.1 grains. Here it is with the errant two shots cropped out of the 100-yard group:
Here is the previous trial at 50 yards and lower velocity, 25" Shilen barrel instead of 24" Ruger barrel, similar COL, 3.57" instead of 3.59", 77 grains of AA-2460 instead of 83 grains:
Round Table discussion topic for Knights of the Crusade:
Consider a rule of thumb for KE limits on the .458 WM+ in a 24" barrel: For the hard and slippery, brass and bronze bearing-surfaced bullets, 6500 ft-lbs KE or less. For the softer and stickier, pure copper bearing-surfaced bullets, 6100 ft-lbs is knocking on the door. The gilding-metal-surfaced bullets might be at a level intermediate to the above, say 6300 ft-lbs?
This suggests a brass hollowpoint hexploder with aerodynamic shape might be a great sheep bullet for the .458 WM+. A brass Lehigh Defense 300-gr spitzer solid might be faster than a 300-gr TSX or TTSX. Maybe a brass hollowpoint with a plastic tip and a boat tail at about 350 grains could approach 2892 fps for 6500 ft-lbs KE ? Probably so.
My top 350-gr TSX load was with 81.0 grains of H4198, 41 degrees F, COL 3.44", 25" Shilen barrel, MV = 2806 fps, KE = 6119 ft-lbs. (Subtract 15 fps for correction to 24" barrel MV.) I don't recall exactly what Sir Bob has done with that bullet, but it was very similar, as I did that to follow his lead. And three of those bullets went into one hole at 50 yards. That could be used for sheep hunting too.
Here is the Labradar data on the factory loads at 80*F, 24" Ruger No. 1 factory barrel, starting with clean barrel, 3 shots each with two factory loads:
Hornady Superformance 500-gr DGS, factory claimed MV = 2140 fps: COL = 3.275", BOL = 1.385", seat depth = 0.610" MV/ 100-yd Vel. 1. 2153 fps (first fouling shot in clean barrel)/ 1865 fps 2. 2134 fps/ 1858 fps 3. 2134 fps/ 1877 fps average MV = 2140.3 fps ES = 19 fps St.dev. = 11.1 fps, might have been a lot better without traces of lubricant in barrel for the first shot. The ES on the 100-yd velocities was coincidentally also 19 fps, but not consistent with MV, shot-to-shot. This could be explained by minor irregularities in the individual bullets, or atmospheric variations, or within instrumental error shot-to-shot, or all of the above. 100-yard velocity average = 1866.7 fps. 100-yard velocity loss = 273.6 fps Claimed BC = 0.295
Winchester W-W Super 510-gr RNSN, factory claimed MV = 2040 fps, next 3 shots: COL = 3.330", BOL = 1.325", seat depth = 0.495" MV/ 100-yd Vel. 1. 2001 fps/ 1787 fps 2. 2040 fps/ 1806 fps 3. 2065 fps/ 1821 fps average MV = 2035.3 fps ES = 64 fps (though Labradar output said 65 fps according to my assistant calling it out to me) St.dev. = 32.6 fps The ES on the 100-yd velocities was only 34 fps, ditto above explanation. 100-yard velocity average = 1804.7 fps 100-yard velocity loss = 230.6 fps Claimed BC = 0.284 Slower bullets lose velocity more slowly !
Does anybody want to calculate those BC number to compare to the claims, or do I have to do that questionable statistical significance myself ? The 5-shot ones will be less insignificant.
In response to RC, 1.. Yes, it was a .458 450 grain North Fork FPS loaded for our bullet tests by Grizzly Cartridge. That same load took one Ele, multiple buff (mostly shoot throughs) and smaller stuff. The 300 grain Nosler at 2200 fps made good medicine for leopard. 2. Presently playing with NF 350 grain SS in my .45 2.1 DR. Looking good so far. Have to get out and adjust scope to move group 2 inches left this weekend before field testing on feral hogs. Some fun!! With luck, the 350 and 400 bullets will be in the same group at 50 and 100 yards. They leave the barrel at 1 inch apart and are arriving at the 50 yard target at just under that now.
3. Knighthood Offer accepted without need of full ceremony. - you word is good enough, plus I have plenty of Starbucks and Black Rifle coffee here on the pony farm.
Round Table discussion topic for Knights of the Crusade:
Consider a rule of thumb for KE limits on the .458 WM+ in a 24" barrel: For the hard and slippery, brass and bronze bearing-surfaced bullets, 6500 ft-lbs KE or less. For the softer and stickier, pure copper bearing-surfaced bullets, 6100 ft-lbs is knocking on the door. The gilding-metal-surfaced bullets might be at a level intermediate to the above, say 6300 ft-lbs?
This suggests a brass hollowpoint hexploder with aerodynamic shape might be a great sheep bullet for the .458 WM+. A brass Lehigh Defense 300-gr spitzer solid might be faster than a 300-gr TSX or TTSX. Maybe a brass hollowpoint with a plastic tip and a boat tail at about 350 grains could approach 2892 fps for 6500 ft-lbs KE ? Probably so.
My top 350-gr TSX load was with 81.0 grains of H4198, 41 degrees F, COL 3.44", 25" Shilen barrel, MV = 2806 fps, KE = 6119 ft-lbs. (Subtract 15 fps for correction to 24" barrel MV.) I don't recall exactly what Sir Bob has done with that bullet, but it was very similar, as I did that to follow his lead. And three of those bullets went into one hole at 50 yards. That could be used for sheep hunting too.
Here is the Labradar data on the factory loads at 80*F, 24" Ruger No. 1 factory barrel, starting with clean barrel, 3 shots each with two factory loads:
Hornady Superformance 500-gr DGS, factory claimed MV = 2140 fps: COL = 3.275", BOL = 1.385", seat depth = 0.610" MV/ 100-yd Vel. 1. 2153 fps (first fouling shot in clean barrel)/ 1865 fps 2. 2134 fps/ 1858 fps 3. 2134 fps/ 1877 fps average MV = 2140.3 fps ES = 19 fps St.dev. = 11.1 fps, might have been a lot better without traces of lubricant in barrel for the first shot. The ES on the 100-yd velocities was coincidentally also 19 fps, but not consistent with MV, shot-to-shot. This could be explained by minor irregularities in the individual bullets, or atmospheric variations, or within instrumental error shot-to-shot, or all of the above. 100-yard velocity average = 1866.7 fps. 100-yard velocity loss = 273.6 fps Claimed BC = 0.295
Winchester W-W Super 510-gr RNSN, factory claimed MV = 2040 fps, next 3 shots: COL = 3.330", BOL = 1.325", seat depth = 0.495" MV/ 100-yd Vel. 1. 2001 fps/ 1787 fps 2. 2040 fps/ 1806 fps 3. 2065 fps/ 1821 fps average MV = 2035.3 fps ES = 64 fps (though Labradar output said 65 fps according to my assistant calling it out to me) St.dev. = 32.6 fps The ES on the 100-yd velocities was only 34 fps, ditto above explanation. 100-yard velocity average = 1804.7 fps 100-yard velocity loss = 230.6 fps Claimed BC = 0.284 Slower bullets lose velocity more slowly !
Does anybody want to calculate those BC number to compare to the claims, or do I have to do that questionable statistical significance myself ? The 5-shot ones will be less insignificant.
Sir Ron;
Without input for atmospheric conditions and elevation, these were the results from my ballistics' program:
500gr Hornady = .280 BC
510gr WW = .324 BC
Results from my Ruger #1 and the 350 TSX = 81 grs H4198, Hornady cases, WLRM primers = 2782 fps/6014 ft-lbs, spring 2020. (3.44' COL)
Damn, You're rolling full steam ahead for 'The Crusade' Sir Ron, great accuracy and numbers, i need to fire a 50 yards group with the irons alternating the 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS and see where they land, also take 300 yard shots with the scope with the 450gr TSX's, should be no more than 10 inches low and still packing near 1850 fps at 300.
Your Knighthood has been well earned by your .458-caliber Crusading with all sorts of rifles, against all sorts of game worldwide. The Lottite infidels' pride goeth before their fall. Hubris is a bitch. They got the big head and you have let the hot air out of them as surely as your 450-grain North Fork FP solids pass through buffalo and elephant. You have shown the way much like Saint Bagwell. Congratulations on your new title. There are only a couple more seats at the Round Table needing filling. Then we have to get a bigger Square Table.
I will dig up some pictures of North Fork bullets, including that .423"/ 380-grain SS recovered by me from a bison, and a bunch of expanded .458 caliber softs from Mike Brady's testing: 350-gr, 400-gr, and 450-gr, for the Crusade.
Sir Bob, Buy a donkey for the Crusade. Your load is noted, again. Add 15 fps for an extra inch of barrel and add another 9 fps for plugging your porting on the 24" barrel and your 2782 fps becomes my 2806 fps from a 25" non-ported barrel. Close enough to exact for a Crusader.
My BC numbers follow, from the RCBS BC Calculator with my local conditions, for what it is worth, BC calculated from Labradar 0 to 100 yards vs. manufacturer claim
510-gr W-W RNSN: BC = 0.316 vs. 0.284
500-gr Hornady DGS: BC = 0.267 vs. 0.295
500-gr Federal TBSS: BC = 0.260 vs. 0.328
480-gr Woodleigh HYDRO: BC = 0.198 vs. 0.192 [estimated by (480/400) X BC of uncapped 400-gr HYDRO = 0.160]
480-gr Hornady DGX-Bonded: BC = 0.245 vs. 0.285
480-gr Bubba's XTSX: BC = 0.235 vs. (Bubba was guessing about 0.200, so he is happy.)
Damn, You're rolling full steam ahead for 'The Crusade' Sir Ron, great accuracy and numbers, i need to fire a 50 yards group with the irons alternating the 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS and see where they land, also take 300 yard shots with the scope with the 450gr TSX's, should be no more than 10 inches low and still packing near 1850 fps at 300.
Good plan, Sir Jerry. And now I am hot to trot a 400-gr XTSX by Bubba with same 83.0 grains of AA-2460.
Funny thing is Western Powders data shows same max load for the 400-gr Barnes SSSP with AA-2230 and AA-2460: Both max loads are 80.0 grains of powder. AA-2230 is only 5 fps faster, but about 1000 psi higher pressure. Hardly any difference at all. And both of those used a short COL of 3.140". BOL of that cup&core softie is only 1.160" so seating depth would be ~0.52", and the 80 grains of either AA-2230 or AA-2460 are both compressed: AA-2230 >>> 2457 fps <<< 53,690 PSI AA-2460 >>> 2452 fps <<< 52,746 PSI
Right now, the 450-gr TSX is the killingest soft we have for the .458 WM, no doubt. We'll get back to the 400-grainers later.
Mike Brady stopped at 450 grains and 2300 fps with his testing of the 450-gr North Fork soft in the SAAMI .458 WM, for more reasons than just benchrest recoil. He thought .305 SD was enough for anything, and the .306 SD of the .458/ 450-gr was close enough for Goldielocks AND all three bears. 0.305 is the SD of a .375/ 300-gr bullet. North Forks having solid copper bases with drive bands and bonded lead nose cores are a bit longer than the usual cup&core bullets of same weight and caliber. Likewise the 450-gr TSX monometal copper is long enough. The 500-gr TSX won't be as stable after impact and eats up too much case capacity for powder.
Three bullets in the sweet spot for North Fork softs are Papa Bear: .458/ 450-gr SD = .306 Mama Bear: .423/ 380-gr SD = .303 Baby Bear: .416/370-gr SD = .305
Mike Brady tested the Woodleigh WeldCore soft in .423/ 400-gr variety against the North Fork .423/ 380-grainer. The Woodleigh soft's penetration decreased as velocity increased. The North Fork soft's penetration increased as velocity increased.
Obviously, the .458/ 450-gr TSX that has controlled expansion which stops at the solid base portion will penetrate more like a North Fork than a Woodleigh. That is like comparing porridge to pancakes for breakfast.
Swiftshot pushing a 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN to 1800 fps with his SAAMI .458 Lott. Sir Russ pushing a 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN to 2100 fps with his SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
Swiftshot will likely not recover his bullet from a small black bear.
Sir Russ might recover his bullet from a large Sambar stag.
Swiftshot's slowpoke penetrates better than the fastpoke of Sir Russ. Not so funny but true.
Greater sectional density means greater expansion of a soft bullet at whatever velocity, unless it has a stop in expansion at a solid base.
I am out shooting my Lott's more often now.That bear hunt experience put back life into me.I am already thinking and planning for next year.I shot my Ralf Martini Lott today with the 67grs loads and the Woodleigh out to 100yds with open sights from a bench.The group size was about an inch-better than my Ruger Lotts with the Pac-nor barrels and Kriger.The Ralf Martini Lott has a Douglas barrel-very impressive.From now on I will only buy Douglas.
If any Knight wishes to take on a knave as apprentice squire, let swiftshot know.
We recall the bullet trap of Mike Brady which I presume he used to generate the penetration profiles of bullets, graphed above. Blocks of book binders glue, rendered horns and hooves from the "glue factory," are aligned in a horizontal stack on a board inside a 50-gallon steel drum. There is an entrance port on the front end and doors on the side of the drum. Blocks can be cooked back down solidity after they are perforated, for shot-to-shot consistency. I don't think there was any calibration with a BB gun like with FBI ballistic gelatin. The BB probably would bounce off. No refrigeration needed either. It makes for nice pictures of various bullets expanded by various velocities, a tough medium.
The .423-380gr soft, graphed above, is pictured here:
Smaller frontal diameter at higher velocities above a certain point, yet still retains 92.3% weight at 2500 fps. Penetrates deeper as velocity is increased. Mike Brady said preferred impact velocity (PIV) was 2000 to 2600 fps for this bullet but it could be expected to expand and maintain structural integrity sufficiently for a functional impact velocity (FIV) range of 1700 to 2800 fps. And a .458-450gr TSX ought to do the same.
Mike Brady test of .458-450-gr soft BOL = 1.460" FIV = 1700 - 2700 fps PIV = 2000 -2600 fps
Mike stopped at 2300 fps with his SAAMI .458 WM load. .460 WBY shooters ought to keep it down to 2700 fps impact or risk expanding the solid copper base. .458 WM+ shooters are surely safe at 2500 fps MV. The North Fork has a slightly shorter BOL than the 450-gr TSX and could be seated less deeply for the same COL. How does the slickness of the narrow grooves and bands on the North Fork compare to the wider ones on the TSX ? Probably about the same overall bearing surface and same material bearing.
Years ago I only shot my Lotts with Max loads.Then I saw no need for this and started using lighter loads.It's both hard on the rifle and the shooter.It could perform less favorable on game too.The only time I will load it up again is if I use it in Africa and even then not to max but three or four grains less.I doubt the Woodleigh needs to be driven very fast to work properly and I know it will take as much punishment as a 500gr Swift-A-Frame bullet-which is a very tough bullet.I use to shoot frozen dirt mounds at top speed with the 550 Woodleigh RNSP and the 500gr A-Frame and they are tough.
RC, Those NF .458 350 grain SS are what I am now testing in my .458 2.1 DR and they should be very effective on Deer and hogs.
'Twill be interesting what velocity hits your regulation with that bullet. I have a crude Baikal/Remington/Spartan .45-70 DR with some jack screws at the muzzle for monkeying with regulation. I need to try the Lyman PH 480-grainer in that, with smokeless. Saint Bagwell recommended a certain smokeless load for 1300-ish fps.
Next, I will push them a bit harder in my 1886 .458 2.4.
And hopefully the Swedish manufacturer of North Fork take-over will be making some bullets for us someday. Covid put a kink in that too, methinks.
Mention was made that a test of my Nikon 2 - 7 x 32mm would need doing. That one has taken a veritable beating on my former Ruger #1 in .45-70LT and now on the Ruger #1 in .458 WIN. Having lately experienced a lot of challenges to get decent accuracy from two bullets -- the 350gr Speer and 465gr hardcast -- I began to question the integrity of the Nikon.
The good news is that the Nikon showed its usual perfection in testing the proven load of the 405gr Rem, 75 grs RL-15, Hornady brass and WLRM primers. Yesterday evening (5:45 - 6:45) at 50 yards I aimed at the bottom of a target (as I didn't know how high that load might be shooting in making some "guessing" adjustments from trials of the 465 hardcast at around 1400 fps) and printed three about 2.5" high. After more adjustments the last two were touching at 1" right of dead center. I only took five with me. I further made 7 quick clicks to move the crosshairs to dead center at 50 yards. That will be my hunting load (2085 fps/3909 ft-lbs) for the coming bear season -- starting Sept. 1st. As mentioned - I used a similar 405gr Rem load from an 1895 Marlin on a decent bear at 100 yards. It was DRT.
Some time ago, I learned that the Nikon "shotgun" scope made 1/4" per click at 50 yds, not the usual 1/4" at 100. In fact, somewhere in the literature that was mentioned.
So, I'm abandoning current trials for the 465gr hardcast, as at the last outing there was at least one "keyhole"! And the 350 Speer has never given the accuracy I expect, though trials have been numerous.
It anyone has some 405gr Remingtons (or perhaps 400gr Hawks or similar), you might want to try 75 grs RL-15 for relatively low pressure, good accuracy and plenty of power for any soft-skinned game (bear, moose, elk, hogs, etc) to whatever range that's suitable. The 405 Rem has a BC of .281 with a dual diameter of .450" for about 1/2 of the bullet length. And it has less lead exposed than "normal" for such type bullets. The core is harder than pure lead and the jacket is thin but gilding metal. It has proven itself on big game as long as impact velocity is not more than about 2000 fps. Less than that at about 1400 - 1500 fps it will act like a solid unless bone is struck.
Sighted dead-on at 50 it is nearly dead on at 100, and could be used at 150 with no holdover. If sighted at 120 it could be useful to 250 without undue calculations. There's plenty of power there for most N.A. soft-skinned game, like moose, well beyond 250 yards.
Recoil from my rifle (10.3 lbs with scope) was about 32 ft-lbs for the 405 Rem. I added 5 other cartridges (350 Speers) to the stock cartridge holder, and felt recoil was noticeably less (calculated at 30 ft-lbs). The similar load (less powder) from the 1895 Marlin was calculated at 42 ft-lbs, and probably felt like more due to the stock shape. But I never noticed at the time as shooting such loads from the Marlin was common... and I was younger (60 ish)!
10-rahjah on the lower pressures with the AA-2460 Sir Ron, Thanks for the math, those Northforks look like some fine bullets, hope that new company can fly em high and sell the hell out of train loads of them, that said, i gotta say, were i to completely blow the petals off a 450gr TSX, that would have to remain a 380 grain flat nosed solid [After] wrecking the hell out of things on the way to losing it's petals, damn hard to beat imho.
A couple of recovered bullet weights for the record.......
Mark V .460 Weatherby Magnum
400gn Barnes XFB over 110gn AR2208/VARGET for 2750fps gained 5 feet penetration into Scrub Bull retaining 293 grains. All petals lost but a mushroom still began to form on the shank. Range approx 75yds. Retained and expanded length is .680" (Bull is pictured in Barnes #4 Manual under .460 Wby Loads) Still have a few of those 400grainers loaded up in the .458 Winchester cases using 74gn of H 4198 and chronographing @ 2434fps.
550gn Woodleigh Weldcore RN over 121gn IMR4831 for 2509fps into Bison and retained 458 grains and expanded to retain approx .388" shank and max expansion width of 1.155". Range approx 60yds. Bison was bled out in the field and transported back to scale a weight of 2,3XX lbs. Aged at 10.5 years.
The good news is that the Nikon showed its usual perfection in testing the proven load of the 405gr Rem, 75 grs RL-15, Hornady brass and WLRM primers. Yesterday evening (5:45 - 6:45) at 50 yards I aimed at the bottom of a target (as I didn't know how high that load might be shooting in making some "guessing" adjustments from trials of the 465 hardcast at around 1400 fps) and printed three about 2.5" high. After more adjustments the last two were touching at 1" right of dead center. I only took five with me. I further made 7 quick clicks to move the crosshairs to dead center at 50 yards. That will be my hunting load (2085 fps/3909 ft-lbs) for the coming bear season -- starting Sept. 1st. As mentioned - I used a similar 405gr Rem load from an 1895 Marlin on a decent bear at 100 yards. It was DRT.
Sir Bob, Your load with RL-15 and the 405-gr Remington is an excellent one, an efficient, low-pressure load, pushing that 405-grainer as fast as it ought to go, accurately. 75 gr RL-15 >>> almost 2100 fps with 405-grainer. Plumb creative of you. It's hard to find RL-15 data for 400-ish-grainers in the .458 WM.
Michael McCourry had a RL-15 load for the old Hornady 500-gr RN InterBond in the SAAMI .458 WM with 24" barrel: 76.5 gr RL-15 >>> 2171 fps That one better be with a bonded bullet. The higher SD and higher velocity will make it pancake like a Woodleigh.
BTW, methinks you did not slow down the undersized-for-458WM hardcasts enough to stop keyholing in Grace. If you don't like them around 1300 fps, better shoot them faster than that in a tighter-grooved .45-70 Gov't.
How about enlightening me on how much deader a 458 Win Mag would make any critter on this continent then, say, a 45-70 loaded for use in a Siamese Mauser, or a Ruger.
10-rahjah on the lower pressures with the AA-2460 Sir Ron, Thanks for the math, those Northforks look like some fine bullets, hope that new company can fly em high and sell the hell out of train loads of them, that said, i gotta say, were i to completely blow the petals off a 450gr TSX, that would have to remain a 380 grain flat nosed solid [After] wrecking the hell out of things on the way to losing it's petals, damn hard to beat imho.
Sir Jerry, I don't think you will blow the petals off the .458-450gr TSX as long as you keep it under 2500 fps in the .458 WM+. Now, if we could have a copy of that monometal copper CNC-turned in brass, the petals would blow off every time on the plains game of any size, big or small, near or far. The 450-gr TSX translated to brass would have a weight of about 430 grains and blow down to about 360-gr of jagged FN brass solid, by comparison. Might exit more often than the copper bullet, blood trail from both sides of the animal. BC would be a little less too though, proportional to the lower SD, but MV might be a little higher, with the slicker brass bullet of lighter weight. Hey, maybe give it a little boat tail and pointier nose ? What the heck, make it a 400-grain varmint bullet made of brass and shoot it at +2600 fps !
A visual comparison on the North Fork SS bullets, .423-380gr and .458-450gr:
If both impacted a buffalo at 2400 fps, which would kill better ? Why, the .458 WM+ of course.
A couple of recovered bullet weights for the record.......
Mark V .460 Weatherby Magnum
400gn Barnes XFB over 110gn AR2208/VARGET for 2750fps gained 5 feet penetration into Scrub Bull retaining 293 grains. All petals lost but a mushroom still began to form on the shank. Range approx 75yds. Retained and expanded length is .680" (Bull is pictured in Barnes #4 Manual under .460 Wby Loads)
That sounds right. The copper petals of an X-bullet are tough enough to stay on until somewhat over 2500 fps. At 2700 fps they would blow off pretty surely, leaving a copper FN of sorts to penetrate deeply after shedding the drogue-parachute petals Even the GSC FN bullets (monometal copper) expanded their noses when they hit my test media at 2700 fps. Brass FN solids maintained their shape at 2800 fps, penetrated deeper.
Still have a few of those 400grainers loaded up in the .458 Winchester cases using 74gn of H 4198 and chronographing @ 2434fps.
2500 to 2600 fps is better with 400-grainers in the .458 WM+.
550gn Woodleigh Weldcore RN over 121gn IMR4831 for 2509fps into Bison and retained 458 grains and expanded to retain approx .388" shank and max expansion width of 1.155". Range approx 60yds. Bison was bled out in the field and transported back to scale a weight of 2,3XX lbs. Aged at 10.5 years.
John
That was a huge bison, and a very old one ! Where is a picture of that one, please ! Shank height of 0.388" on the Woodleigh 550-gr RNSN that started off at 1.414" length, and expansion to 250% of original diameter, and 83% weight retention: 2509 fps MV impacting at 60 yards, probably about 2375 fps, exceeded Woodleigh's recommended impact window of 1800 to 2200 fps for that bullet. Bison still died, thank goodness !
How about enlightening me on how much deader a 458 Win Mag would make any critter on this continent then, say, a 45-70 loaded for use in a Siamese Mauser, or a Ruger.
You forgot to specify a 480-gr semi-hard Lyman PH cast bullet at 1300 fps for the .45-70 that will kill anything in North America quite reliably. And you are emphasizing the ridiculousness of the .458 Winchester Magnum deniers. Bless you. Buy a donkey for that support of the Crusade for Truth.
I'll be sticking with the known load for the 405gr Rem during bear season, or as much of it as possible as I expect to be in New Brunswick sometime in October.
Also, I'll be trying the same load for the 400gr Hawk and 400gr Barnes Buster to see how that goes. Another trial, without re-sighting anything, will be 75 grs RL-17 for the 405 Rem. I'm expecting about 1800 fps but want to find out how accurate that load might be.
I also think the Buster might be a good choice for particular applications if accuracy fulfils desires. In a media test around 2250 it went straight through everything and was lost. That from my former 45-70 LT. The 500gr Speer GS was defeated at 6" penetration, retaining 310grs ! MV was 1750 fps. Range for all bullets was 5 yards to media. Both 350gr TSX's penetrated completely - one was "lost" (until found about a year later - the point was damaged and it had tumbled by hitting the edge of a wooden plank) the other was retrieved just inside the last panel of the second box, fully "mushroomed" and retained 350 grs. MV was 2470 fps.
Eight bullets were fired and the only two that was the same were the 350 TSX's. Most were reduced loads to simulate hitting large game in the shoulders at around 100 yards.
The theoretical advantage of the Buster is that big wide flat meplat (BWFM), when/if it impacts the shoulders of a bull elk, moose, bear or hog at 1400 to 2200 fps it should be devastation - IF the accuracy is what's wanted/needed... ... similar to a North Fork FN solid, I'd think. I've a pic of a 300gr NF FN solid from a 300 H&H retrieved from an ele by a friend.
I tend to think that a 400 grain mono such as the TSX and a mono flat point solid would be ideal in the 458 Win Mag+ for an all round load for any game on the planet
That is a straw man argument. Ron nor any of the rest of the steady thinkers made any such comparisons so; we leave it standing there alone in the ditch. Light it on fire if you must but it is folly. We all enjoyed Sharpsguy and welcomed his knowledge and gifted shooting. I do believe he appreciated the mission as well. My own contribution to the mission was to start the conversation about the 458 WM and cast bullets. Ron and others expanded that to a chapter or two with their research and results. I use smokeless and a 485 FN cast bullet at 1700 FPS or so to keep the venison coming and the elephants in hiding here on the Great Plains. Oh and killing myths one at a time. Best regards sir,
10-rahjah on the lower pressures with the AA-2460 Sir Ron, Thanks for the math, those Northforks look like some fine bullets, hope that new company can fly em high and sell the hell out of train loads of them, that said, i gotta say, were i to completely blow the petals off a 450gr TSX, that would have to remain a 380 grain flat nosed solid [After] wrecking the hell out of things on the way to losing it's petals, damn hard to beat imho.
Sir Jerry, I don't think you will blow the petals off the .458-450gr TSX as long as you keep it under 2500 fps in the .458 WM+. Now, if we could have a copy of that monometal copper CNC-turned in brass, the petals would blow off every time on the plains game of any size, big or small, near or far. The 450-gr TSX translated to brass would have a weight of about 430 grains and blow down to about 360-gr of jagged FN brass solid, by comparison. Might exit more often than the copper bullet, blood trail from both sides of the animal. BC would be a little less too though, proportional to the lower SD, but MV might be a little higher, with the slicker brass bullet of lighter weight. Hey, maybe give it a little boat tail and pointier nose ? What the heck, make it a 400-grain varmint bullet made of brass and shoot it at +2600 fps !
A visual comparison on the North Fork SS bullets, .423-380gr and .458-450gr:
If both impacted a buffalo at 2400 fps, which would kill better ? Why, the .458 WM+ of course.
LOL, all good to know Sir Ron, just going off a riverbed in Tanzania last October, slammed an old Dagga boy at 16 yards in the left side last rib at 2076 fps with a 750gr TSX from my 577 double, man it hurt him bad, he fell, and immediately began his death bellow, that said, bullet was in right shoulder under the hide, two petals gone, the .458 cal. 450gr TSX may be a little thicker, the right buff shows this fall, we shall see my Friend.
Sir Bob, For all game large and small, and for all other sport, I am partial to .458 WM/+ bullets of whatever construction, weight and velocity gets the job done. My thoughts are that you have got it figured well with your loads for the .458 WM/+, and I expect you shall not fail.
BTW, that picture of a .375-300gr North Fork solid recovered from an elephant would be interesting.
I tend to think that a 400 grain mono such as the TSX and a mono flat point solid would be ideal in the 458 Win Mag+ for an all round load for any game on the planet
jwp475, That is mighty enlightened of you. We have a couple more seats at the round table if you want to be a Knight of the Crusade for Truth of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
That is a straw man argument. Ron nor any of the rest of the steady thinkers made any such comparisons so; we leave it standing there alone in the ditch. Light it on fire if you must but it is folly. We all enjoyed Sharpsguy and welcomed his knowledge and gifted shooting. I do believe he appreciated the mission as well. My own contribution to the mission was to start the conversation about the 458 WM and cast bullets. Ron and others expanded that to a chapter or two with their research and results. I use smokeless and a 485 FN cast bullet at 1700 FPS or so to keep the venison coming and the elephants in hiding here on the Great Plains. Oh and killing myths one at a time. Best regards sir,
Sir Dennis, I presume you refer to arkypete's straw man comparison of the .45-70 Govt. versus the .458 WM. Great imagery of leaving it standing alone in the ditch versus lighting it on fire, all as folly. The Crusade for Truth is never ending.
I tend to think that a 400 grain mono such as the TSX and a mono flat point solid would be ideal in the 458 Win Mag+ for an all round load for any game on the planet
jwp475, That is mighty enlightened of you. We have a couple more seats at the round table if you want to be a Knight of the Crusade for Truth of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Crusade for truth is very noble and I would be honored
... just going off a riverbed in Tanzania last October, slammed an old Dagga boy at 16 yards in the left side last rib at 2076 fps with a 750gr TSX from my 577 double, man it hurt him bad, he fell, and immediately began his death bellow, that said, bullet was in right shoulder under the hide, two petals gone, the .458 cal. 450gr TSX may be a little thicker, the right buff shows this fall, we shall see my Friend.
Good to know that, .585-caliber/ 750-gr TSX petals can be shed on a cape buffalo rib at about 2050 fps impact. I never would have thunk that, but a cape buffalo rib is a lot stronger than a bison rib.
I expect brass hollow-point bullets to shed their petals even if thrown by hand at a buffalo. I used to expect a lot more stick-to-it-ive-ness from a copper hollow-point bullet.
Consider yourself tapped on the shoulders with the flat of a Bill Bagwell Bowie. We'll all get ours when Sir Jerry officiates at the meeting of the Round Table, hopefully to occur before we all get together in the Happy Hunting Ground.
I sure do have a liking for .458-400gr bullets. The 400-gr TSX was supposedly only ever made as a special run for Buffalo Bore, lately. I have yet to test fire Bubba's 400-gr XTSX. Maybe I should get some Buffalo Bore ammo for a shoot-off. Those are supposedly only loaded to 2250 fps MV in the SAAMI .458 WM. Heck, we can do that with hardcast, PC-painted, gas-checked 407 grainers, and do it accurately, in the SAAMI .458 WM, sized to .460" to .461" for the .458" to .459"-grooved common barrel.
I suggest trying Bubba's 400-gr XTSX atop both 83.0 grains of AA-2460 and 83.0 grains of AA-2230, and compare that to however much H4895 can be loaded with a drop tube and compressed without bulging a case. All with a COL of 3.600", in the .458 WM+. The 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN can go faster than 2600 fps with a COL of 3.425", which is too fast for its 2500 fps limit. No limits on the 400-gr XTSX.
Bubba Bore ammo versus Buffalo Bore ammo for the shoot-off. Plus some cast bullets to rub salt in it too.
We also have yet to try the 485-grain hardcast FN favored by Sir Dennis at 1700 fps. I'll do that too, including +/- 500 fps for a 1000 fps spread with that bullet, centering on 1700 fps.
So many choices for deer and varmints! I am tempted to use that 250-gr Hornady Monoflex at 2725 fps with 65 grains of AA-5744, since it shoots groups half the size of the ones at 3075 fps with 82 grains of H4198, both loaded to 3.340" COL. The SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum with a 24" barrel is a very versatile rifle.
Yessir Sir Ron, dont know where along the way the petals sheared, never found them, quick gut and load job on that buffalo at dusk, earlier i asked my PH why that herd of buffalo kept crossing the river back and forth, he said there's lions between us and them, they're trying to draw the lions out in the open, i asked would we see the lions, he said yes, if they dont want to eat us! little Wife went kinda pale in the face LOL!
Nice work on the other monos, those would absolutely have to get it done, Thanks.
Sir Jerry, You raked that buffalo. Possibly a terminal impact of the expanded petals on a humerus in the offside shoulder knocked off half the petals ? Anytime I try to make a rule of thumb regarding bullet behavior, I hammer it home by smashing my thumb with the hammer.
As you were.
Buffalo Bore Ammo
400-gr TSX and Hornady brass for .458 WM are not unobtainable, and no more expensive than any factory ammo nowadays. Might ship same day as ordered if they are not swamped by orders. Pace yourself guys, try not to hoard.
Tim Sundles is smart like a fox. He knows he could easily load that 400-gr TSX well over 2250 fps in the SAAMI .458 WM. But he knows that if his tight and slick little 18-incher is safe with 2250 fps, well that is fast enough, for selling to the public, the vast majority of whom will get 2250 fps or better in their 24" factory rifles. And that is just the sort of load that Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker crowed about being better than any 500-grain soft nose in the .458 WM. That is a WIN-WIN Winchester load, regarding both lawyers and gun gurus.
I wonder what rifle was used by Tim Sundles on that bear. I suspect anything from .338-06 to .458 WM would be ideal for that kind of big, soft target.
Hopefully I will soon have some of those .458-400gr TSX in hand to see if they have the same nose as the 450-gr and 500-gr TSX. Hard to tell by the photographs which might show different meplat sizes.
That’s pretty danged cool. His Classic is a twin to mine.
Need to try some of them bigger Bullets out it. I ain’t shot anything heavier than a 350 Hornady from it and I haven’t even broke the trigger on my 45-90 #1 Ruger yet!
Buffalo Bore did show some trajectory charts for the 400-gr TSX and 450-gr TSX at various MV. The top for the 400-grainer was 2600 fps, and for the 450-grainer was 2500 fps. Good limits for the sane .458 WM shooter.
Out to 300 yards, the 400-grainer is about 1 inch higher than the 450-grainer, but has 3.6" of wind drift for the 400-grainer versus 3.3" for the 450-grainer. The 400-grainer is supersonic to 725 yards, while the 450-grainer is supersonic to 784 yards. 400-grainer muzzle KE = 6003.1 ft-lbs. 450-grainer muzzle KE = 6244.0 ft-lbs. Less recoil and adequate game-getting for the 400-grainer, but the 450-grainer is going to be the champion gong-ringer at 1125 yards.
That’s pretty danged cool. His Classic is a twin to mine.
Need to try some of them bigger Bullets out it. I ain’t shot anything heavier than a 350 Hornady from it and I haven’t even broke the trigger on my 45-90 #1 Ruger yet!
Sir,
Do you wish to claim the 12th seat at the Round Table ? What is your SIR NAME to make it officially official if I forgot to write it down previously ...
Ordering from Buffalo Bore is as good as it gets for factory ammo. Phil Shoemaker thinks the Buffalo Bore 9mm pistol ammo is adequate for brown bear, with hardcast lead, wide FN not pushed too fast:
Buy a donkey for your support of the Crusade for Truth. The Round Table is full. We are going to have to get a bigger SQUARE TABLE if anymore Knights come forward. The squire apprentices can use a card table over in the corner of the round room until then.
How about enlightening me on how much deader a 458 Win Mag would make any critter on this continent then, say, a 45-70 loaded for use in a Siamese Mauser, or a Ruger.
Arky; how bout I walk you up to about 25 feet away from an aggressive brown bear on a grass flat . A bear whose hump is pushing 6' off the ground when its on all fours. Course , I'll have The Spruce King in my hands to keep it from getting me. You can have whatever you like. Can't shoot till your 25 feet away. Then tell all and sundry how great the 45/70 is. Oh and NO CNS SHOTS . body shots only.
That’s pretty danged cool. His Classic is a twin to mine.
Need to try some of them bigger Bullets out it. I ain’t shot anything heavier than a 350 Hornady from it and I haven’t even broke the trigger on my 45-90 #1 Ruger yet!
Sir,
Do you wish to claim the 12th seat at the Round Table ? What is your SIR NAME to make it officially official if I forgot to write it down previously ...
Ordering from Buffalo Bore is as good as it gets for factory ammo. Phil Shoemaker thinks the Buffalo Bore 9mm pistol ammo is adequate for brown bear, with hardcast lead, wide FN not pushed too fast:
Phil still has the after adrenaline look to him in that pic ! 👍 A lot of guy critized him for only having a ccw pistol with him. But his reason was clear and made sense. No one can say he don't have enough experience there , doing what he does. Would I pack just a 9 as a stand alone gun in bear country, No. But I have and would pack my 10.
You are very observant, maybe familiar with the feeling ?
There is a bit of fading deer-in-the-headlights look on Phil's face, and I am sure he is a man with sense enough to pour the warm urine out of his hipwaders before it gets cold.
Quite familiar yes. Tho not quite as close as he was. I think my closest was between 15 and 20 feet. Things were still happening pretty fast. Usually in now or die situations (that I'm aware of ) with me , things slow way down. At least that was my preception . Had more of those than I can remember while falling timber in S.E. Ak. I did have 1 bear charge that I can remember that went into slow motion. My first. I 416 Taylored him. 325 gr8 X bullet @ around 2600 fps . Bang Flap. Not flop , he was on his way up in a jump when the bullet hit him. He was completely Dead when he hit the ground.
Ah, yes, the .416 Taylor carried the mail for Sir Spruce with a 325-gr X-Bullet at 2600 fps, sectional density of 0.268, very much like a .458-400gr with SD = 0.272.
Little bigger hole with the .458-400gr so maybe we could get by with 2400 to 2600 fps MV in the SAAMI .458 WM and .458 WM+ ? This will require use of monometals like the X-Bullet. Maybe someday a .458-400gr brass hexploder ?
400-gr solids at 2600 fps might gain stability from their shortness. I guess a 400-gr round-nosed solid might stay straight for greater depth of penetration than a 500-grain round-nosed solid, but that ain't saying much. Could a higher velocity .458-400gr FN or HYDRO keep up with a heavier and slower .458-caliber FN solid ? Probably. As Sir John suggested, adequate for elephant.
Ah, yes, the .416 Taylor carried the mail for Sir Spruce with a 325-gr X-Bullet at 2600 fps, sectional density of 0.268, very much like a .458-400gr with SD = 0.272.
Little bigger hole with the .458-400gr so maybe we could get by with 2400 to 2600 fps MV in the SAAMI .458 WM and .458 WM+ ? This will require use of monometals like the X-Bullet. Maybe someday a .458-400gr brass hexploder ?
400-gr solids at 2600 fps might gain stability from their shortness. I guess a 400-gr round-nosed solid might stay straight for greater depth of penetration than a 500-grain round-nosed solid, but that ain't saying much. Could a higher velocity .458-400gr FN or HYDRO keep up with a heavier and slower .458-caliber FN solid ? Probably. As Sir John suggested, adequate for elephant.
Sir Ron as I see it Mono metal expanding and solids have changed the rules
Sir John, Yep, acceptance of the lighter monometals for .458-caliber rifles has been slow in coming. Late last century Art Alphin dared to use 465-grain "Monolithic" brass solids, round nose though they were. Early this century, Richard Harland announced good reports on 450-grain solids at 2300 fps on elephant. The time of the .458-400gr elephant bullet has arrived ! I feel a further study and application of .458-400gr bullets coming on. And I finally got the 45-550P mould from Accurate Molds for some more duplexed-BP-paper-patched shooting. It is a shiny brass, two-cavity beauty for casting with 1:20 for the .458 WM+ and .45-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated. Old tech to spice up the new tech. Never a dull moment.
I was thinking, that I'm out of Bear grease, and in need of some! Thought this would be as good a place to post as any! Not trying to de rail the post!
I was thinking, that I'm out of Bear grease, and in need of some! Thought this would be as good a place to post as any! Not trying to de rail the post!
Any one have a little that they can spare?
If so you can P.M. me!
Thanks in advance, Tony
Tony,
Welcome, and buy a donkey for your contribution to the Crusade for Truth. If you are bucking for Knighthood, tell us about some .45-bore rifle related shooting you have done and you are in. All things .45-bore-rifle-related are .458 Winchester Magnum related, starting with muzzleloaders and going forward. As for the bear grease, sorry, I am all out too. You wouldn't want any of the last one I shot, it smelled fishy. Greasy red meat that tastes like fish is not my cup of tea either.
Sir Ron, if memory serves Phil Shoemaker preferred the 400 grain TSX in his 458 Win when they were available
Sir John,
Phil surely did, and Finn Aagaard raved about them too, a favorite bit of trivia for me. Here is a start at the study of those .458-400gr monometal expanding bullets:
Those slick GSC HV 400-grainers were loaded by me to a COL of 3.395" with a mere 80 grains of AA-2230. This COL easily works through the magazine box of a SAAMI .458 WM Ruger M77 Mk II with a Shilen-barrel 25"-long, at 55 degrees F, MV = 2527 fps, 100-yard 3-shot group was 0.63 MOA, and 5-shot standard deviation was 1 fps. That data was shot in December 2019. It passed completely through a running whitetail doe at 150 yards in November 2019, after loaded ammo had sat for a year.
In a 23"-long McGowen barrel on a .458 WM+ Winchester M70, MV = 2511 fps @ 55degrees F, same ammo compared on same day in December 2019. The McGowen barrel is a little tighter-grooved. Good barrels, McGowen.
I have only two boxes left of each of the 400-grainers above, little boxes of 20 to 25 count each. The discontinued X-bullets were found at a gunshow. The GSC HV were ordered when GSC USA had come over here from SA. They got a bad shake here from getting mixed up with CheyTac. I hope and pray I can find them again someday.
So, I depend on Bubba to convert the .458-500gr TSX into 400-grainers.
I hope to pull a Buffalo Bore proprietary .458-400gr TSX and photograph it, might even get better lighting and focus ! Tim Sundles has an exclusive contract with Barnes for those 400-gr TSX bullets, which have never been available to handloaders. It will be interesting to see one of those.
Sidetracking to .458-400gr elephant bullet ideas, may have to get a custom designed brass FN, or Bubba could work on some of the old Barnes Banded brass FN solid, if he could find them.
Edit to add the Bullet Overall Lengths of above three "solids":
Federal TBSS 500-grainer: 1.400" T/C Bone Crusher 400-grainer: 1.155" Barnes Buster 400-grainer: 1.080"
The .458-500gr TBSS is too perfect to molest, but some handgunners have done it to the .475-500gr TBSS. Otto Candies, Jr. shortened one of those to 400 grains and took a huge bull elephant with a .475 Linebaugh handgun. A .458-400gr XTBSS could do in a pinch.
Do you think the 400-450 TSX will expand in whitetail deer RC?
Never thought about plunking one of them into a buck.
Sir Scotty,
Sure it will if it is going 1600 fps or greater. At that impact speed it would be more likely to expand than the lighter .458-400gr X. Sectional density drives degree of bullet expansion for any given impact velocity. But not to worry, if it is a .458-450gr bullet, or a .458-400gr bullet, either one, the deer will likely fall like this one did:
Probably less meat loss than happens with those rat calibers at high velocity.
I’m betting it will feed sir. If it doesn’t a slight radius of the outer edge will fix it.
Sir Dennis, You are referring to .458-400gr XTSX-1, of course. Absolutely, a radius on the outer edge of the meplat would be desirable. More than just breaking the sharpness off the edge, a full-blown bevel would work better. Could be done by more vigorous application of the handtool used for that edge break, one of of those oh-so-useful, thimble-like deburring tools used on the mouths of brass cartridge cases. Copper is softer than brass ! Less drilling and chamfering inside the hollowpoint would be needed then to get it to 400 grains.
For the .458-400gr brass solid: Shaped like a beer keg, with an FN nose and a symmetric/mirror image boat tail for base, with a hollow point hole in the base, and a ballistic tip insert if used as an expanding bullet when the hollow-base FN solid is shot backwards. Sound familiar ?
The slug used for 12ga From Hell could be a model for diameter reduction to .458-400gr brass FN solid.
The .458 Winchester Magnum sure is a sweet little deer cartridge.
Rob modified my cast-lead Darwin for his lathe-turned imitation Darwins. My cast-lead Darwin translated to brass would weigh about 1100 grains as a .730-caliber with 1.375" BOL. If the .730-caliber Darwin is reduced to .458" major diameter but remained 1.375" long, it would weigh about 430 grains if made of brass ? Some fine tuning of the design is needed to get to exactly 400 grains.
Yes Sir. Number 5 has been my pick of the Bubba litter from the start. Phil needs another washed up Whale and some of all these for testing. I think 5 would be a big bear smasher non parallel at all 458wm col’s.
Do you think the 400-450 TSX will expand in whitetail deer RC?
Never thought about plunking one of them into a buck.
Sir Scotty,
Sure it will if it is going 1600 fps or greater. At that impact speed it would be more likely to expand than the lighter .458-400gr X. Sectional density drives degree of bullet expansion for any given impact velocity. But not to worry, if it is a .458-450gr bullet, or a .458-400gr bullet, either one, the deer will likely fall like this one did:
Probably less meat loss than happens with those rat calibers at high velocity.
Thanks RC. I wanna get the 458 out a little this year. Debating on sticking with the 250 Hornady Mono's or trying something larger. I would like to scoop up some of the 300 grain Barnes TTSX's if I ever catch them for sale. It'd just be for deer hunting this year, so I am pretty sure anything will work decent.
I was thinking, that I'm out of Bear grease, and in need of some! Thought this would be as good a place to post as any! Not trying to de rail the post!
Any one have a little that they can spare?
If so you can P.M. me!
Thanks in advance, Tony
Tony,
Welcome, and buy a donkey for your contribution to the Crusade for Truth. If you are bucking for Knighthood, tell us about some .45-bore rifle related shooting you have done and you are in. All things .45-bore-rifle-related are .458 Winchester Magnum related, starting with muzzleloaders and going forward. As for the bear grease, sorry, I am all out too. You wouldn't want any of the last one I shot, it smelled fishy. Greasy red meat that tastes like fish is not my cup of tea either.
Sir Ron, Thanks for the Intro! lol Was able to hunt yrs. ago with an 1886 Winchester, mfg. in 1886, in the infamous 45-90, black powder cartridge, that I picked up from a very good friend, an old timer that I would take out and shoot this thing with, may he now rest in peace! I was able bag a nice white tail at our hunt camp in PA. A truly nice deer that my youngest son and I saw, just getting back to the Cabin, for lunch, merely enjoying time together, more so than the hunting part if you will! He saw a couple does crossing the road in front of Camp about a couple hundred yards down, what we call the South line of our Property, and he asked Dad, I think that last one had Horns! Only having a Buck tag, he asked how can we get a look at him, as to possibly getting him, if he was a buck. My youngest Son, home on leave,(Marine Corps Sniper), was up for any plan that I put together. So knowing their patterns, I told him, that other Hunters probably pushed him out of the other section of Hard Timber Woods, and that they'll lay down in the Slashing s, in those bottoms, that they were heading to, and If he gave me a head start, I would post up at the Back side of that Ravine, covering the Valley, and clear across to the old Maple Sugar House, where the other set of Hardwood trees start, coming up out of that Valley, past the Corn field where they feed at night. I explained that they'd lay there all day if not Bothered, and feed on that Corn come evening! "Almost isn't fair" he said with a laugh! So I put him in motion slowly, and Told him that When he saw me get to a certain point, to pick up his pace, and don't be too concerned about super sneaking, but don't scare them, as to get them flying, Carrying the Mail, the old Timers would Say! Sure enough I'm on stand and had my spots picked out, with the old Girl's open sights at about 110 yards, to about 125 yards at different openings in the tees across the valley up on the Ridge line, I first saw two Does, the smaller ones first, naturally, then a decent size Doe, and then, sure enough, with my Binoculars, a nice small 8 point, stopping and looking back, to see what was, following them, into there favorite, resting spot, for an afternoon snooze! lol I put that Winchester Model 1886,45-90,(300 gr.) Black Powder Caliber Rifle, with open sight on him, and the picture was a little fuzzy in my eyes to some small brush, that was in front of him, but doing a little reconnaissance, before the deer arrived, I knew that I had two more shooting lanes, and the third opening, my last, was the Best, at that he started to spook, and turned to follow the others as I predicted, and I followed with my Rifle at the Ready, UP, BOUNCE, DOWN, BOUNCE , second opening, no, no , 3rd opening, BAM! Down he went, here comes my Son, through the Valley, I'm racing down, my side of the Ravine, Can't see the Deer, my Son is now behind me, up the other side of the Ravine, towards the top of the Ridge, not knowing, if he's down, running, scrambling, or what! We climb the gradual apposite Ravine, Valley, we call the First Gully, (given by the previous owner,Carl, that taught me a lot), up to the Ridge where I last Saw the deer tumble, and my son is sayin, did you get him, did you get him, more exited for me than I was for myself. As we started to crest that Ridge, my son already knew to slow go, behind me, I saw the Buck, Still Kickin, so as I had my Rifle on him, you could still hear that death rattle in his Wind pipe, and then Done! No more movement as we walked up on him. My Sniper Son said "DAD"!, "One Shot One Kill' ! lol!
Memories of a life time, for at that Time he just got home from Afghanistan, and Almost didn't come back Home! Like I said earlier, it wasn't really bout the Hunt!
We celebrated, as my oldest Son,who came off stand, the two very close Brothers, were celebrating with me!
Sir Ron, Sir Scotty I don't see where a 458 bullets needs to expand to put a deer on the ground pronto
You're right John, but I used a WFN 405 a bit in the 45-70 and while they ran a bit, they bled real well and died pretty quick. 300's like the old Nosler and Speer seemed to dump them somewhat faster. It's semantics as I never had a problem with them dying and recovering but it ain't going to hurt my heart for them to be close to the impact area.. Or right on top of it. I shot a little cull buck a few years back with a 250 TTSX from my 375 Improved that started that bullet around 2900'ish. At the shot it sounded like I hit a rock it was such a thump, but that little bugger still made it 100 yards.
All fun though, I am looking forward to hunting the 458 a little.
I was thinking, that I'm out of Bear grease, and in need of some! Thought this would be as good a place to post as any! Not trying to de rail the post!
Any one have a little that they can spare?
If so you can P.M. me!
Thanks in advance, Tony
Tony,
Welcome, and buy a donkey for your contribution to the Crusade for Truth. If you are bucking for Knighthood, tell us about some .45-bore rifle related shooting you have done and you are in. All things .45-bore-rifle-related are .458 Winchester Magnum related, starting with muzzleloaders and going forward. As for the bear grease, sorry, I am all out too. You wouldn't want any of the last one I shot, it smelled fishy. Greasy red meat that tastes like fish is not my cup of tea either.
Sir Ron, Thanks for the Intro! lol Was able to hunt yrs. ago with an 1886 Winchester, mfg. in 1886, in the infamous 45-90, black powder cartridge, that I picked up from a very good friend, an old timer that I would take out and shoot this thing with, may he now rest in peace! I was able bag a nice white tail at our hunt camp in PA. A truly nice deer that my youngest son and I saw, just getting back to the Cabin, for lunch, merely enjoying time together, more so than the hunting part if you will! He saw a couple does crossing the road in front of Camp about a couple hundred yards down, what we call the South line of our Property, and he asked Dad, I think that last one had Horns! Only having a Buck tag, he asked how can we get a look at him, as to possibly getting him, if he was a buck. My youngest Son, home on leave,(Marine Corps Sniper), was up for any plan that I put together. So knowing their patterns, I told him, that other Hunters probably pushed him out of the other section of Hard Timber Woods, and that they'll lay down in the Slashing s, in those bottoms, that they were heading to, and If he gave me a head start, I would post up at the Back side of that Ravine, covering the Valley, and clear across to the old Maple Sugar House, where the other set of Hardwood trees start, coming up out of that Valley, past the Corn field where they feed at night. I explained that they'd lay there all day if not Bothered, and feed on that Corn come evening! "Almost isn't fair" he said with a laugh! So I put him in motion slowly, and Told him that When he saw me get to a certain point, to pick up his pace, and don't be too concerned about super sneaking, but don't scare them, as to get them flying, Carrying the Mail, the old Timers would Say! Sure enough I'm on stand and had my spots picked out, with the old Girl's open sights at about 110 yards, to about 125 yards at different openings in the tees across the valley up on the Ridge line, I first saw two Does, the smaller ones first, naturally, then a decent size Doe, and then, sure enough, with my Binoculars, a nice small 8 point, stopping and looking back, to see what was, following them, into there favorite, resting spot, for an afternoon snooze! lol I put that Winchester Model 1886,45-90,(300 gr.) Black Powder Caliber Rifle, with open sight on him, and the picture was a little fuzzy in my eyes to some small brush, that was in front of him, but doing a little reconnaissance, before the deer arrived, I knew that I had two more shooting lanes, and the third opening, my last, was the Best, at that he started to spook, and turned to follow the others as I predicted, and I followed with my Rifle at the Ready, UP, BOUNCE, DOWN, BOUNCE , second opening, no, no , 3rd opening, BAM! Down he went, here comes my Son, through the Valley, I'm racing down, my side of the Ravine, Can't see the Deer, my Son is now behind me, up the other side of the Ravine, towards the top of the Ridge, not knowing, if he's down, running, scrambling, or what! We climb the gradual apposite Ravine, Valley, we call the First Gully, (given by the previous owner,Carl, that taught me a lot), up to the Ridge where I last Saw the deer tumble, and my son is sayin, did you get him, did you get him, more exited for me than I was for myself. As we started to crest that Ridge, my son already knew to slow go, behind me, I saw the Buck, Still Kickin, so as I had my Rifle on him, you could still hear that death rattle in his Wind pipe, and then Done! No more movement as we walked up on him. My Sniper Son said "DAD"!, "One Shot One Kill' ! lol!
Memories of a life time, for at that Time he just got home from Afghanistan, and Almost didn't come back Home! Like I said earlier, it wasn't really bout the Hunt!
We celebrated, as my oldest Son,who came off stand, the two very close Brothers, were celebrating with me!
Headin out to Buy a Donkey! Tony
Tony, great account of the hunt, and an 1886 is too darned cool! Man, I have been part of similar hunts and hunting while home on leave was some of the best head clearing times there could have been.
beretzs, Glad that you enjoyed it. Thank you for your service!
Never once did I, or do I, ask questions, that I might want to know answers too, but know better to ask,as a Father, so I just use restraint! Kinda against my nature, butt, my oldest told me Dad, you really don't want to know! Good enough for me, as I'm close with both, and there, even closer with there Mother, as I've always tried to teach them,"I'm alright, take care of your mother'! As I try to while the Good Lord Put me on this Earth!
Yeah, we've created a lot of Memories, through hunting, as I always remember my oldest, sittin on a stump with me yrs. ago, when he was small, telling me how some kid a tschool was giving him a hard time, if it werne't for hunting he would have never takin the time to tell me, cuz we're moving to fast in life even when we try to slow down! No cell phones back then so we were truly enjoying the Hunt! The people who don't hunt will never understand! Tony
Sir Tony, OK, you can sit in Saint Bagwell's empty chair until we get the Round Table switched out for the Square Table of greater than twelve chairs. I am sure Saint Bagwell would highly approve of your original 1886 vintage 1886 Bagwelling of that buck.
Sir Scotty,
Great tip on the Hammer Bullets, I am looking at them:
Also, for those who neck the 50 BMG down to .458-cal, Hammer Bullets has just the ticket for King of 2-Mile:
".458 Cal-674g Target Hammer In stock and ready to ship! We have been working with Kirby Allen of Allen Precision Shooting to develop an extreme long range bullet for his 458 Maximus. This is the 1st version that we settled on for his 1-12″ test rifle. He was able to run this 674g Target Hammer at 3220 fps from a 1-12″ twist 41″ Lilja barrel ..." $90 for 25 bullets, cheaper than HYDROs ! The Shock Hammers at about $2 per bullet are a great bargain compared to HYDROs on this side of the pond.
Problem is that on this side of the pond those HYDRO bullets cost about $5 each when delivered in packs of 10 bullets, before they became out of stock and no back order at Midway USA. I got some 480-grainers from Huntingtons and no 400-grain HYDROs were available way back then, nor now.
It might be cheaper and easier in the long run to get a custom bullet made. CEB used to do that before they got to the big time.
Sir Scotty, I am getting a couple of boxes of the .458-402gr Shock Hammer. I could not resist this line at the Hammer Bullets web site:
"Military and First Responders: We appreciate your past and present service! Please use the coupon button below to apply a 10% discount. This coupon is based on the honor system. Anyone using this discount that is not current or former military or first responder is a TURD!"
Shoot a Shock Hammer backwards and you have a a copper FN solid. If the hollow base stays on the bullet to impact it will add CG-forward/dart stability to the shoulder stability and the shortness stability. Now, if we could find a ballistic tip to fit in the hollow point, mere gyroscopic stability will have to do for the soft.
If you read between the lines of the first post at this thread by Kirby Allen regarding his development of the .458 Maximus, along with Hammer Bullets' development of the bullet to go with it ...
I think you will discover that the secret of success with that cartridge is that it has a long throat. He initially feared the throat would need to be shortened for use with existing, lighter .458-570gr VLD bullets from Lehigh Defense, etc. He tried those lighter bullets while Hammer Bullets was revising the prototype 700-grainer. Results were outstanding with the shorter and lighter bullets. No shortening of throat was mentioned prior to when the 674-grainer was ready to perform super-duper style. Let the Lottites wail and gnash their teeth.
Was gong to verify express sight hits at 50 yards with the 450gr TSX running 2418 and 500gr TBSS at 2358 in the morning, then zero scope +3 at 100 with the TSX's and see where they land at 300, not expecting any more than 10-12 inches low at that range, bullet still packing in excess of 1850 fps, would easily open on a deer or in my case maybe a big Red Hartebeest for Wife.but, have to run by John Deere and pick up some tractor parts, maybe i can get to part of it before dark tomorrow evening.
I’ve gotta get in on this. You all are having way too much fun. I’m looking at RC and what he does with the Hammers. I figure maybe I can cheat a little and copy what he has going on.
Yup, doing chores makes the fun things more fun, eventually. I hope to photograph the 402-gr Shock Hammer, posed like the other bullets on the Hammer Bullets site. Then email the image to HB to remind them to get an image for that bullet. A similar photo and measurements of Buffalo Bore's 400-gr TSX will be forthcoming too. And if I ever re-barreled a .416 Barrett M99 or a .50 BMG Cobb 50BA to .458 Maximus it would have a throat just like on the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
Sir Jerry, I am learning how to convert image files in case you let something unusual come over the cellphone. Looking forward to seeing how your rifle does at 50 yards with both of those bullets when the pointy one is about 2.5" to 3" high at 100 yards.
I have the Buffalo Bore .458-400gr ammo in hand, arrived today, 6 days after it was ordered, will dissect it and shoot it over a chronograph.
But first, Bubba got lucky with his first try in shortening a .458-500gr Barnes Banded Solid to 400 grains:
Preliminaries on the Buffalo Bore ammo, speedy delivery, and probably best quality "factory" ammo available, priced well too, considering all that:
The 400-grain TSX is third from bottom above. The nose projection is a wee bit shorter than that on the 450gr and 500gr TSX. The COL of the two rounds I pulled apart was 3.310", identical for both. The brass cases are Hornady and they measured 2.492" and 2.493". The Barnes bullets weighed 400.3 grains and 399.1 grains. Bullet Overall Lengths: 1.390" and 1.388". Call it a 400-grainer that is 1.39" long. The two powder charges weighed: 75.3 grains and 75.4 grains. Call that a charge of less than or equal to 76.0 grains of what looks like AA-2230. That is the median charge in the Western Powders manual for the old Barnes Original .458-400gr SSSP bullet at 3.140" COL: 72.0 grains >>> 2162 fps 80.0 grains (compressed) >>> 2457 fps <<< 53,690 PSI 24" barrel velocities: Interpolating for 75.35 grains gives 2286 fps. Buffalo Bore's claim is for 2250 fps with the 400-gr TSX. That will make a bloody big hole in anything needing a soft bullet.
They sure do. The 400-gr TSX is very likely to shoot close to same POI at closer ranges as the .458-402gr Hammer Bullet. If Hammer Bullets would start turning out some aluminum ballistic tips to press-fit into those big hollow points would be nifty. Maybe a plastic CEB ballistic tip will fit ?
A shoot-off between Buffalo Bore and Bubba Bore .458-400-grainers is pending.
The sharp edges on the XTSX hollow point will be susceptible to magazine battering. They are OK for single-shot loading. That could be fixed for magazine loading by chamfering less and deeper-hole drilling for precision adjustment of bullet weight.
The .458-400gr FN solid could be slowed down for herd shooting, so as not to kill too many of the herd (elephant) with one shot from the .458 Winchester Magnum.
The GSC HV were ordered when GSC USA had come over here from SA. They got a bad shake here from getting mixed up with CheyTac. I hope and pray I can find them again someday.
Sir Ron, Is there more to the story that can be posted? The GSC website is still alive and I sent them an email inquiry last December, but never got a reply.
Photo below is of my first try at powder coating bullets cast from the Lyman mould - they weigh about 475 grains as coated.
Man, you're getting it all done Sir Ron, i've been straining my pea brain on a 40 2-5/8ths Sharps, what a hellfire problem child it's been, first cartridge that's ever given me this much of a workout, with everything Saint Bagwell taught me, along with what i've learned on my own as well as several good tips from Ranch13 she gave her milk today, it's all over but the sight correlation marks on the ladder sight.
Sirs, and any others not yet seated at the Square Table, assuming permission and good grace from you all, I'll interject a few more thoughts on 400s from my most recent range experience.
Before that, however, let me also express my sincere gratitude for Sir Ron's ongoing work, especially now re the 400gr TSX from BB and his own 400gr creations from the 450gr and 500gr TSX's.
Yesterday, at the range, I tried two distinct bullets over the same powder charge. Due to my own appreciation for 400gr bullets from both .45-70s and the great .458 Win Mag, I tested a couple of 405gr Remingtons ( a proven accurate load from the #1 Ruger in .458, and my current bear load for September) for confirmation of sight-in at 50 yards, and two 400gr Barnes Busters.
The 405s were fired first and both went into the same hole at dead-center @ 50 yards. Next, the two 400gr Busters were shot at the center of the 50 yard target. The result of the four bullets produced a single hole that measured .458" x 1.08" outside measurements. The two Barnes Busters also landed in the same hole on the right side of the 405s, breaking the target paper between making a single elongated hole! The greatest enter to center spread of the 4 was .60" as best I could measure with calipers. A 400 Buster will be loaded first for relatively close shots, followed by 405s as the range opens.
Details: Temp @ +20C/ 69F; Sunny with some haze. Elevation 900 ft.
Rifle: Ruger Tropical .458 with Mag-na-ports/24" barrel Powder 75 grains of RL-15 WLRM primers Hornady cases 2x fired. Chrony was not used, but former tests gave an average of 2085 fps for the 405 Rem corrected to MV. From some evidence, I think the 400gr Busters may have been around 2100 fps (yet to be confirmed). The primers were a bit flatter than for the 405s, and there was dirty gas residue around mouth and body of cases for the Busters that were not crimped. No dirty gas residue for the 405s that were crimped into the bottom cannelure. COL for the 405s = 3.26", and for the 400 Busters at 3.3".
The Buster has a meplat of .28", and I believe it could kill anything- and I mean ANYTHING at an impact of around 1400 fps.
Just some bits of information on some other worthy 400s.
The tale of GSC USA as of late 2018 is a woeful one. But I am cheered by the possibility that they have survived in South Carolina. I called that number that Sir John posted, but got a message that the mail box was full, no answer. In November 2018 Gerard Schultz emailed me and detailed the travails of GSC USA. His daughter and her husband had initially come over to USA from RSA about 2015 or earlier, to set up business in Michigan, soon moved to northern Indiana ! Gerard and Wife initially moved to Midland, Texas, circa 2016 and eventually got green cards and permanent USA residence in early 2017. Then the GSC USA business was sold to CheyTac in 2016 ! Gerard and Wife moved to Charleston, SC in August/September 2016, then sold to CheyTac. CheyTac told them to move the machinery to White City, Oregon. They hauled 8 tons of bullet-making machinery to Oregon and then found no CheyTac facility suitable for setup. Holy cow ! They return-tripped it back to Charleston, SC, Gerard driving one of the trucks himself !
The rest is too complicated for me to try to sort out.
It appears CheyTac decided to get out of the bullet making business and totally screwed over GSC in late 2018. I pray that Gerard Schultz has found a way to continue business here in the USA. Current address is in Goose Creek, SC. I will email Gerard and see if he responds, while his telephone voicemail is full. I shall forward this thread address to him to let him correct any misinformation if I am guilty of that. Heck, I might need to drive down there to get some bullets if they are indeed in stock ! My only two cape buffalo were taken with GSC bullets in 2001 and 2010.
The USA is currently being led by the DALDEDs down the same path as taken by RSA. It seems Gerard decided to leave RSA before the USA went down that path. DALDEDs arose in the USA after he got here. Condolences to Gerard Schultz and Company.
Regarding your PC-painting, good on you. Some pointers from my experience:
Sir Ron, when I called I had the same experience as you. A few days later I got a call back as they were returning missed calls. I told them that I would post the number on the internet and he thanked me
... 40 2-5/8ths Sharps ... it's all over but the sight correlation marks on the ladder sight ...
I would surely appreciate any load tips on that as I have one made by rechambering a Pedersoli .40-65 WCF. Looking forward to anything related to the .458 WM+ too.
Sir Ron, when I called I had the same experience as you. A few days later I got a call back as they were returning missed calls. I told them that I would post the number on the internet and he thanked me
Will look forward to a return call if the same happens for me as for sir John.
Ditto the compressed loading of RL-17 creative use in the 9.3x62mm Mauser, in your latest blog installment. That is also a great powder for the 12Ga From Hell. It is very reliably ignited by a 209 shotgun primer, even in charges up to 180 grains. RL-17 is a very interesting powder.
I agree, a .458-400-grainer at 1400 fps to 2600 fps, soft and solid, is all we need in the .458 WM and .458 WM+.
The Barnes Buster, the T/C Bone Crusher, Woodleigh HYDRO, or the GSC FN 400-grainer are all very interesting magazine fillers as stopping bullet solids, should a 400-grain soft point need backup in the .458 WM.
... 40 2-5/8ths Sharps ... it's all over but the sight correlation marks on the ladder sight ...
I would surely appreciate any load tips on that as I have one made by rechambering a Pedersoli .40-65 WCF. Looking forward to anything related to the .458 WM+ too.
Will do on the 40 2-5//8ths Sir Ron, 458 WM+ completely disassembled and cleaned today, alcohol cleaned and prepped metal and thread holes as well as screw threads, red loctite under rear and front sight bases, screws red loctite'd on, blue loctite on all stock screws and Talley steel base screws and holes, all curig and drying nicely tonight in Sharps rifle range box cradle LOL, will alcohol clean and red loctite sight hood if i have to make any movements in front sight getting centered on a 25 yard strip of black tape in the morning.
Got a Red Hartebeest spray painted on a sheet of cardboard for some 300 yard drop checks with the 450gr TSX BUZZSAWS! if not too windy i may have at the 400 yard steel gong just for chits and grins.
"John Barsness says the most important accuracy factor in our handloads is the bullet. No matter how we fiddle with the brass, runout, neck thickness, COL, throats, primers and primer pockets, powders, etc., you have to have a good bullet to see any returns on all the rest. And of course the twist rate has to be right for the bullet too.
"Here is another little test to show that the long throat (0.300" length of parallel-sided free-bore in the 400 Whelen-B) is not an accuracy problem. After 5 shots at 100 yards to get on paper and foul the barrel, using the GSC-USA .411"/317-grain HV, I got lucky with the next 3 shots at 100 yards, so I moved on to the windage adjustment on another aiming point, for one-hole-preservation ..."
Got a Red Hartebeest spray painted on a sheet of cardboard for some 300 yard drop checks with the 450gr TSX BUZZSAWS! if not too windy i may have at the 400 yard steel gong just for chits and grins.
Sir Ron, Thanks for the info on GS Custom bullets. I'll be glad to hear more, when you get a response. And thanks for the powder coating tips. Actually, the photo was from my 2nd try - my 1st try was on aluminum foil shiny side up and the bullets stuck to the foil! I may try the foil the other way up, as well as the silicon baking sheet. I'm already using the hemostats and Class 5 plastic container to coat the bullets.
In addition to quoting you on the GS Custom website, I also found:
Sir Jerry sent some photos. 15 images, numbered below for his comments if he wishes. His safari ammo and rifle performed very well together, and he helped with proper triggernometry. He sent "Live" movie and HEIC files and I "converted" them to JPEG best I could, some have detail views numbered same as the original. I struggle with 'puters and cellphones always changing and updating to get too smart for my good.
1-Express sight verification a 50 yards after getting centered on 25 yard tape.
2-Getting front sight adjusted for center on 25 yard tape, fired shot one, then shot two to make sure i didn't let the rifle torque on the first shot, i sometimes forget to heavy grip these rifles that torque, after shot was verified, moved front blade left, fired shot three, perfect!
3-Final shot number three on 25 yard tape.
4-Box back on table, express sight work completed, 5 rounds fired so far.
5-Showing clean Red Hartebeest target at 300 yards.
6-Fresh painted 400 yard gong.
7-Red Hartebeest just met 450gr TSX from 458 WM+ at 300 yards LOL, i held 12 inches above where the bullet landed and a guesstimated 3-4 inches into the light East wind, firing dew North, that's a dead anything in Africa and here too.
8-Bullet strike on 400 yard gong, i could have held a bit higher, straight guess, i hadn't looked at drop figures to 400 yards ; ]......who shoots a 458 WM that dang far anyway? East wind moved that one a bit further, 450gr TSX was still packing the freight when it landed, it swung that gong, it's made from 1/2 inch pig iron, probably weighs more than a hundred pounds.
9-TSX left some sugar on that steel!
10-Mama Red Loctite getting ready to go to work at the conclusion of the days shooting.
11-Zeroing scope, 1st shot fired, moved scope up and left 10 clicks each.............WHOOPS, a damn Leupold that tracked clean LOL!
12-At 400 yard gong looking for the TSX on the ground, looked beside ATV to see a 500gr TBSS lying there, freaked me out, i had only fired those solids at 25 and 50 yards, guess it's hard to stop a hellfire missile fired from a 458 WM+ at 2358 fps! seriously gives one plenty to think about.
13-Ready to fire scope at 100 yards.
14-Shooting completed, express sights busting centers, scope zeroed and ready for anything to a long 300 yards, front sight hood alcohol cleaned and red loctited on, i fired a total of 10 rounds, four 500gr TBSS' solids and six 450gr TSX's, a hell of a morning loosing that kind of power, the old rifle is going to be a hell of a shooter.
15-That ammunition lay on the bench cooking in the sun for over two hours, it was 92 degrees at the conclusion of todays shooting, those primers look fine to me, chambering, extraction and ejection was flawless, that rig is ready for Africa.
"For The Crusade of Truth," your friend in Arms, Sir Jerry.
The Hammer Bullets (in stock) arrived 6 days after the initial internet order. They are precision bullets. Here is the free bumper sticker in the package:
The hollow point opening is 0.250" diameter at meplat of about 0.300" diameter, and the hole tapers to a point in an ogival way, about 0.400" deep at most. Should be a "Shock Hammer" when it lands and slick traveling inside a barrel. There are 6 grooves, streamlined in both directions, 0.458" major diameter, 0.450" minor diameter. Crimped in 4th groove: 3.340" COL, 0.490" seating depth Crimped in 5th groove: 3.450" COL, 0.380" seating depth Boat tail is about 0.250" long, reducing from .458" max to 0.400" minimum diameter. That is about 87% of caliber at the base. Probably would be too blunt to feed from a magazine box if tried in reverse for a solid. Still wishing for an aluminum or plastic ballistic tip to press-fit into the hollowpoint. Maybe just a 0.25"-diameter plastic sphere to act as a feed cap on the HP end ?
Recommended minimum twist rate for dangerous game hunting is 1-22″
Bullet length is 1.33″
Bullet weight is 402g
Recommended use: Big game Hunting and Dangerous Game Hunting
Qty-25
G1-BC=.248 estimated"
The GREAT .458 WM+ could easily handle improving the BC with a ballistic tip.
I am still working on the impact velocity range for expansion, but I guesstimate it will be as broad a range as any big game bullet, probably 1200 fps to unlimited.
Thanks Men, took the 458 WM+ out to the shop for a nice Wipeout bore foam cleanup, a few foulers and another scope check and she'll stand ready for the Limpopo sometime this fall provided the damn country doesn't blow all to hell first.
Sir Ron, yes, those 400's should fly like lightning, there's where the AA-2230 may shine bright!
Acknowledge loyalty to the .458 WM and you too can become a Knight of the Square Table. That is truly a square deal now. The light and handy .458 Winchester Magnum do-all really needs no defenders anymore. But the Lottites need a little whack-a-mole now and then and we are always ready ! In old age I may be mellowing enough to accept a 400-gr soft and solid at 2400-2500 fps for do-all. I really will not need to go all the way to 2600 fps with 400-grainers when shooting from my wheelchair.
... those 400's should fly like lightning, there's where the AA-2230 may shine bright!
Sir Jerry, Agree. And may the red gods smile upon you for the Limpopo River region safari coming up. Will try my new 400-grainers with 80.0 grains AA-2230 and whatever COL seems to agree with that. It was +2500 fps with the GSC HV 400-grainer at 3.395" COL, in both 23" McGowen barrel and 25" Shilen barrel. Outstanding accuracy AND a 5-shot standard deviation of 1 fps on one of those outings. Dropped a running doe at 150 yards on another outing with that GSC HV. The 24" Ruger No. 1 barrel has become my standard tester, Daisy needs a chance at the new 400-grainers.
Hammer Bullets got a patent on their bullets, might be due to those streamlined-both-ways driving bands,
The design of Hammer Bullets is the basis for US Patent # 29/529,124….The shape and proportions of the bullet ...
Hammer Bullets are custom turned on a CNC lathe, using only the highest-quality solid copper appropriate for the desired result. Each bullet is weighed and micrometer measured as it is produced. The result is an incredibly consistent product with unparalleled quality control.
Hammer Bullets are available for both target shooting and hunting applications. We can quickly produce virtually any custom caliber and grain your rifle can support.
The hollow point design, intended for big-game hunting application, initiates expansion upon impact, shedding petals immediately, with the remainder of the bullet staying intact with a blunt front for optimal wound channel.
PDR – Parabolic Drag Reduction The bearing surface of the bullet incorporates the patented PDR design (parabolic drag reduction). A continuous up and down curve, from the shoulder to the boat tail, reduces friction in the bore which equates to decreased pressure and the ability to achieve higher velocities. The PDR design on the bearing surface has proven to be very consistent and forgiving for the hand loader. Seating depth adjustment for accuracy has been unnecessary, making for much less time spent creating an effective load. Load development is as easy as shooting for velocity and then confirming point of impact.
They will make custom designs for folks wanting to use Hammer Bullets in special twists, etc.
Their comments continue here:
Types of Hammer Bullets
The different bullet lines that we have currently are the Shock Hammer, Hammer Hunter, Target Hammer, and the DeadBlow Hammer. We have a couple others that we are working on that will be coming in the future.
The Shock Hammers are our line of bullets that we designed for normal range hunting, where bc is inconsequential. So for most cartridges 400y or less. The Shock Hammer line is approximately an 80% weight retention bullet that has a larger hollow point for super quick opening on game with high retention for long straight penetration.
The Hammer Hunter line is our long range or high bc line of bullets. This was the original line of bullets. These bullets all have 1.5mm hollow point and are typically 60%-70% weight retention. There is no drop off in terminal performance from the Shock Hammers. The only difference that we see on game is the Shock Hammer will open up slightly quicker. We designed the Hammer Hunter with the 1.5mm hp as it was the smallest that we could get reliable expansion. We tried 1mm hp but it would not always do what we wanted on game. Failure is not an option. As far as we know there is no report of a failure of the Hammer Hunter to expand on game. There is always that chance and the larger hollow point on the Shock Hammers reduces that risk.
I will be changing the name of the Heavy Hammers to Hammer Hunters. They are for all intents and purpose the same. They are bullets that we came up with for customers that had slow for caliber twist rifles. The goal here was to make as heavy a bullet as we could that still has the 1.5mm hollow point and still get as much bc as we could and maintain proper stability for good terminal performance. They typically have shortened boat tails and more baring surface to increase the weight to length ratio.
DeadBlow Hammers are Hammer Hunters that are designed to retain 40%-50% on impact. They simply have a very deep hollow point that causes them to shed much larger nose petals. We have a full line of these ready to go. I just have not had the time to get them up on the website. We hunted with these bullets last fall in MT and had very good results. I’ll be honest, it is not exactly what we think a bullet should be, but we are looking to satisfy those who like a frangible bullet. Because they are pure copper they do not disintegrate like lead core bullets, so meat damage is still very light. The shed weight comes of in a few large pieces that do their own work. Think of 4 little 25g bullets along with the retained shank all penetrating deep in the animal. On game performance was actually very good. These bullets will be a bit more expensive due to the fact that is takes so long to drill the deep hole. If anyone is interested in DeadBlows shoot me a note. We can fill orders I just need to know what you are after.
Target Hammers are pretty self explanatory. Non expanding bullet designed for shooting targets not game.
The GSC HV .458-400gr in hand here is 1.44" long The Barnes TSX .458-400gr from Buffalo Bore is 1.39" long The Ex-Barnes XTSX .458-400gr from Bubba Bore is 1.40" long The Shock Hammer .458-402gr from Hammer Bullets is 1.33" long.
I think Hammer Bullets could make a longer, pointier .458-400gr Shock Hammer with higher BC and smaller diameter hollow point hole. Shaped like the GSC HV with PDR bearing surface (Parabolic Drag Reduction not Physicians' Desk Reference), I predict a G1 BC of about 0.400 at 2500 to 2600 fps in the .458 WM+.
That would be an interesting .458 Shock Hammer, well adapted for the .458 WM and .458 WM+. You can easily distinguish it from the 402-grain Shock Hammer by the 0.011" longer BOL and 2-grain lighter weight, and pointier nose with smaller hole on the 400-grainer.
Sir Ron, I am fully satisfied with my CRF Super Express M70 .458 Win Mag and have no desire to aquire a Lott, since the Win Mag is already more than a Lott, and considerably more than a little. Like you, I'm thinking that in North America, a 400 grain expanding bullet will do everything I really need. I have some AA-2230 and new Hornady brass, and I think the new cases deserve a great bullet for testing. I have only a limited amount of these North Fork bullets, and it pains me to shoot too many, since I don't know when I can get more, but I'm willing to develop a load that could work for just about anything.
... those 400's should fly like lightning, there's where the AA-2230 may shine bright!
Sir Jerry, Agree. And may the red gods smile upon you for the Limpopo River region safari coming up. Will try my new 400-grainers with 80.0 grains AA-2230 and whatever COL seems to agree with that. It was +2500 fps with the GSC HV 400-grainer at 3.395" COL, in both 23" McGowen barrel and 25" Shilen barrel. Outstanding accuracy AND a 5-shot standard deviation of 1 fps on one of those outings. Dropped a running doe at 150 yards on another outing with that GSC HV. The 24" Ruger No. 1 barrel has become my standard tester, Daisy needs a chance at the new 400-grainers.
LOL, that'll work Sir Ron, Thanks for the well wishes, i want to put that 458 WM+ to work, about the Hammer 400gr gaping HP's, have a bud with a machine shop that could lathe out some tips out of delrin rod?, or call and ask Hammer to tip those things for you, they may surprise you/us, would certainly boost B.C. for flatter flight.
For those that are interested, Lane Simpson published an article in the September Shooting Times ".458 Win Mag, The Complete Story". There are a few loads and bullet choices covering Practice, .45/70 equivalent and Full Power loads that will be of interest to handloaders.
I think the information contained within this thread has opened a lot of eyes and the simplicity of a bolt stop mod and full magazine box OAL is a whole new world for pennies on the returns. As always, it is just a matter of recoil, or we would all be using .30/378's wouldn't we?.
Sir Bevan it is then, the 14th Knight of the Square Table Crusaders for Truth. The Fourteen Musketeers, all for one and one for all, the .458 Winchester Magnum.
That North Fork .458-400gr SP is a marvelous bullet to do all but what needs a solid. I have them on my wish list at www.reloadinginternational.com Still waiting for the Swedish production. I unfornutately never got any 400-grainers while I could from USA production, was stuck on 450-grainers then.
Mike Brady loaded his 400-grainer in a SAAMI .458 WM to 2500 fps. But if one seated it only 0.310" deep, for 3.500" COL on top of a 100% LR charge of AA-2230 or a heavily compressed charge of H4895 ... so many powders, so few bullets. A light load of H322 if you only want 2400 fps with the 400-grainer, etc.
Sir Jerry, I shall take the Delrin rod tips under advisement, buy a donkey for that. I emailed Hammer Bullets about aluminum or plastic tips, sent them the image of the 402-gr Shock Hammer too. Will see if anything shakes out. No word from GSC. Hammer could easily make something more like the GSC HV, but with the PDR bands, I will inquire about that too, a custom order.
The gaping hollow point on the 402-gr Shock Hammer is a nominal 0.25" in hole diameter. Spreading my calipers inside the hole I get 0.248".
I bet a 0.25" (6.35mm) steel ball bearing would make a nice fit into that hole and add about 0.125" to BOL, with a shiny silver hemisphere sticking out of that hole. That ball of steel weighs 15.76 grains. 402.7 grains + 15.76 grains = 418.46 grains.
The .458-418gr Ball Peen Hammer Bullet by Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technologies Ltd., very limited, is hereby released to the guntrade. Patented component supplied by Hammer Bullets.
For those that are interested, Lane Simpson published an article in the September Shooting Times ".458 Win Mag, The Complete Story". There are a few loads and bullet choices covering Practice, .45/70 equivalent and Full Power loads that will be of interest to handloaders.
I think the information contained within this thread has opened a lot of eyes and the simplicity of a bolt stop mod and full magazine box OAL is a whole new world for pennies on the returns. As always, it is just a matter of recoil, or we would all be using .30/378's wouldn't we?.
AussieGunWriter,
Worthy information there, worth repeating. I will look for that Layne Simpson article. He is usually pretty thorough. If you want the 15th Seat at the Square Table of Crusaders for Truth, tell us your name for the Knight Title, something besides Sir AussieGunWriter I hope. Already taken: Bob, Ron, Jerry, Mike, Spruce, Dennis, Bill Bagwell, Russ, Hannay, Charles, John, Scotty, Tony, and Bevan. Thirteen living and one Saint.
Just as a side note, AussieGunWriter is the reason I started my love affair with the .458 Years ago AGW wrote a review for the CZ550 .458 with the hogsback stock for a local magazine and after reading it I had to have one! AGW was also the person that got me on to the 550gn Woodleigh's and even gave me some loads. Has a wealth of knowledge and would make a great addition to the square table!
Just read the Layne Simpson article too and I really enjoyed it. Well worth a read guys.
Oh, and I'm heading out again on a Sambar hunt on Sunday and I'm hoping to finally christen the 550gn Woodleigh load on a big stag... fingers crossed. Of course will keep you all posted with a field report and pics!
For those that are interested, Lane Simpson published an article in the September Shooting Times ".458 Win Mag, The Complete Story". There are a few loads and bullet choices covering Practice, .45/70 equivalent and Full Power loads that will be of interest to handloaders.
I think the information contained within this thread has opened a lot of eyes and the simplicity of a bolt stop mod and full magazine box OAL is a whole new world for pennies on the returns. As always, it is just a matter of recoil, or we would all be using .30/378's wouldn't we?.
AussieGunWriter,
Worthy information there, worth repeating. I will look for that Layne Simpson article. He is usually pretty thorough. If you want the 15th Seat at the Square Table of Crusaders for Truth, tell us your name for the Knight Title, something besides Sir AussieGunWriter I hope. Already taken: Bob, Ron, Jerry, Mike, Spruce, Dennis, Bill Bagwell, Russ, Hannay, Charles, John, Scotty, Tony, and Bevan. Thirteen living and one Saint.
Hi Ron, The name is John Woods. Boringly simple I know, may complicate the table with 2 John's? Call for arbitration? My background was more on the heavier side in writing in Oz, with handloading included within every article to help the readers with some short cuts. John
PS Thanks for the kind words Russ. (I still keep 550gn Woodleigh loads on hand, because....I can)
A couple of recovered bullet weights for the record.......
Mark V .460 Weatherby Magnum
400gn Barnes XFB over 110gn AR2208/VARGET for 2750fps gained 5 feet penetration into Scrub Bull retaining 293 grains. All petals lost but a mushroom still began to form on the shank. Range approx 75yds. Retained and expanded length is .680" (Bull is pictured in Barnes #4 Manual under .460 Wby Loads)
That sounds right. The copper petals of an X-bullet are tough enough to stay on until somewhat over 2500 fps. At 2700 fps they would blow off pretty surely, leaving a copper FN of sorts to penetrate deeply after shedding the drogue-parachute petals Even the GSC FN bullets (monometal copper) expanded their noses when they hit my test media at 2700 fps. Brass FN solids maintained their shape at 2800 fps, penetrated deeper.
Still have a few of those 400grainers loaded up in the .458 Winchester cases using 74gn of H 4198 and chronographing @ 2434fps.
2500 to 2600 fps is better with 400-grainers in the .458 WM+.
550gn Woodleigh Weldcore RN over 121gn IMR4831 for 2509fps into Bison and retained 458 grains and expanded to retain approx .388" shank and max expansion width of 1.155". Range approx 60yds. Bison was bled out in the field and transported back to scale a weight of 2,3XX lbs. Aged at 10.5 years.
John
That was a huge bison, and a very old one ! Where is a picture of that one, please ! Shank height of 0.388" on the Woodleigh 550-gr RNSN that started off at 1.414" length, and expansion to 250% of original diameter, and 83% weight retention: 2509 fps MV impacting at 60 yards, probably about 2375 fps, exceeded Woodleigh's recommended impact window of 1800 to 2200 fps for that bullet. Bison still died, thank goodness !
Ron, Did some poking around on my PC and found a pic of the buffalo. He was in a small herd and stood our because his hump was several inches higher that the rest and he had a long stem of dried grass on it which held to visually track him when he weaved through the other animals. The other feature that stood our was the locks flowing from his front legs as he ran because they looked like chaps.
I knew they could reach 2000lbs+ but didn't realize his true size until he scaled over 2300 while bled out. He also had horns that raised above the head mane which is not that common. He measured SCI #20 but I never recorded him in the books as I am not interested in competing.
Hit a snag - Pic is too large to post. Will try to send to you via a PM John
Sir Bevan it is then, the 14th Knight of the Square Table Crusaders for Truth. The Fourteen Musketeers, all for one and one for all, the .458 Winchester Magnum.
That North Fork .458-400gr SP is a marvelous bullet to do all but what needs a solid. I have them on my wish list at www.reloadinginternational.com Still waiting for the Swedish production. I unfornutately never got any 400-grainers while I could from USA production, was stuck on 450-grainers then.
Mike Brady loaded his 400-grainer in a SAAMI .458 WM to 2500 fps. But if one seated it only 0.310" deep, for 3.500" COL on top of a 100% LR charge of AA-2230 or a heavily compressed charge of H4895 ... so many powders, so few bullets. A light load of H322 if you only want 2400 fps with the 400-grainer, etc.
Many thanks, Sir Ron! My M70 hasn't yet had the magazine spacer taken out and the ejector shortened to allow magazine-fed WM+ rounds, but that doesn't mean I can't load some longer COL rounds to be manually fed.
Sir Jerry, I shall take the Delrin rod tips under advisement, buy a donkey for that. I emailed Hammer Bullets about aluminum or plastic tips, sent them the image of the 402-gr Shock Hammer too. Will see if anything shakes out. No word from GSC. Hammer could easily make something more like the GSC HV, but with the PDR bands, I will inquire about that too, a custom order.
The gaping hollow point on the 402-gr Shock Hammer is a nominal 0.25" in hole diameter. Spreading my calipers inside the hole I get 0.248".
I bet a 0.25" (6.35mm) steel ball bearing would make a nice fit into that hole and add about 0.125" to BOL, with a shiny silver hemisphere sticking out of that hole. That ball of steel weighs 15.76 grains. 402.7 grains + 15.76 grains = 418.46 grains.
The .458-418gr Ball Peen Hammer Bullet by Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technologies Ltd., very limited, is hereby released to the guntrade. Patented component supplied by Hammer Bullets.
LOL, that'll work Sir Ron, and you're most welcome.
AGW, with two Johns here, you could be Sir Woods.
Sir Bevan, good for you, a big load of fun is on the way.
The suggestion from Sir Jerry makes hay for me. How about it ? Sir Woods ? We already have a Sir Spruce. "Sir Woods" has a great ring to it too.
Say "hi" to Gregor Woods and Nick Harvey for us if they are still kicking. Any relationship ?
I will send a PM for that image of the big bull. Email will handle it and I can size it down to post here if it is a nice file like a JPEG or other like the gallery handles here.
I plan to do the same for my M70 Super Grade .458 WM, and stick it into a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock to save the wood from scratches. No hurries, no worries, that +3.4" box will handle ammo loaded to 3.4" COL and that is plenty good with most 400-grainers. And, as you say, single-loading works fine for now, my rifle ejects a 3.54" COL if chambered and not fired.
The suggestion from Sir Jerry makes hay for me. How about it ? Sir Woods ? We already have a Sir Spruce. "Sir Woods" has a great ring to it too.
Say "hi" to Gregor Woods and Nick Harvey for us if they are still kicking. Any relationship ?
I will send a PM for that image of the big bull. Email will handle it and I can size it down to post here if it is a nice file like a JPEG or other like the gallery handles here.
Thanks Ron, Email will sort it out. I believe Gregor is South African? not sure, but I have one of his books in my library. Nick should be a legend as he has been writing since about 1962 so has made an enormous contribution over those literal decades. We talked occasionally at gun shows but never knew each other well. Spent more time with Mike McGuire than anyone else of note. We frequented the same range almost weekly for many years and he was always interesting. Sir Woods sounds fine. John
Good on email. We are missing Sir Mike here and he founded this thread ! I talked to Mike McGuire by telephone a long time ago, nigh onto two decades ago. Has he quit the boards altogether ? Sir Bevan is posting images at a different hosting service and gets them to show up here like so:
That is some great bullet porn. I might look into that site too.
I mean location of the herd of animals on the map. Also a review of necropsy of the bullet wound track in the bull would be interesting, if you got a chance to observe that, or simply where the bullet entered the bison and where the bullet stopped, when you get time, please.
So a 550-gr Woodleigh at 2500 fps does not "over expand" on a big bison.
There are a few giant bison out there, and Sir Woods found one of them with his 460 Weatherby Magnum Mark V.
The heaviest wild bull for B.b.bison ever recorded weighed 1,270 kg (2,800 lb) while there had been bulls estimated to be 1,360 kg (3,000 lb). B.b.athabascae is significantly larger and heavier on average than B.b.bison while the number of recorded samples for the former was limited after the rediscovery of a relatively pure herd.
The 550-gr Woodleigh at 2100 fps MV with the SAAMI .458 WM (3.340" COL) would have likely work just as well, expanded less and penetrated deeper, and it would have been easier on the shooter's shoulder. Another good choice for bison:
The North Fork penetrates deeper as velocity increases.
I mean location of the herd of animals on the map. Also a review of necropsy of the bullet wound track in the bull would be interesting, if you got a chance to observe that, or simply where the bullet entered the bison and where the bullet stopped, when you get time, please.
Sir Ron, The bison was taken in South Dakota from a herd of approx 4,000 on the 60,000 acres used in the Dances with Wolves movie. I recall the ranch was called Triple U. Last I heard, Turner recently added it to his property portfolio. Being aged at 10 and a half when I took him, he would have been a 4 and a half year old bull in the movie so I shot a movie star. Triple U's widow owner would allow hunters every year to take out the oldest herd bulls for a fee, I paid $1200. He was mounted by Jim Field, who did a lot of the SCI member mounts at the time in Oz and this half shoulder mount won first place in that category at the next SCI Convention there. The drop shoulder and legs in gallop as well as the open mouth with teeth exposed was Jim's idea and make the mount really stand out from the front, apart from sheer size.
The Woodleigh did ball up to some degree but was stopped by a neck shot. The audible thump was something that can only be explained by the guide who after stating that he had seen everything in cartridges, delivered the oration "Good Lord" when the cricket bat loud whack came back from the bullet strike. Gravity did the rest.
I have written before that there are 3 commonly noted stages in bullet behaviour, most hunters have seen stage one, where everything either side of the .270 behaves similarly on the common game those cartridges and various calibers are used until you get to stage 2 which is the .375 H&H. At that point you can see a visual difference in bullet impact and the honest summary of "Thump" can be noted. When you hit Stage 3 you are using .458 caliber and the degrees of thump are more noted with larger animals. When the game is heavy, meaning at least a ton in weight, a tremendous thump that demonstrates impact is noted whereas if you cull a lot of half ton and smaller animals that same degree of thump is less distinguishable to the larger stage 1 and 2 cartridges.
I wish I had more experience than I do to solidify those noted results, but that takes more money than the opinion is worth.
Damn, hell of an animal Sir Woods, it's past time for me to go get another buffalo [bison], they're absolutely delicious, grilled, smoked or from Wife's favorite cast iron seasoned skillets.
Damn, hell of an animal Sir Woods, it's past time for me to go get another buffalo [bison], they're absolutely delicious, grilled, smoked or from Wife's favorite cast iron seasoned skillets.
Delicious for sure.
I still remember those packages you slipped me a few years ago.
Sir Woods, Yours is about the most outstanding bison shoot I have ever heard of, in all regards. That is truly a most outstanding mount, foreleg chaps and all, so SCI occasionally shows good judgement in their awards. The only thing that could warm the cockles of my heart anymore about your adventure would be if you had used a SAAMI .458 WM and a 550-grain RNSN at 2100 fps MV. Woodleigh recommends impact velocity maximum of 2200 fps with that bullet. You were stunt shooting with your 460 WBY, but that is OK, I understand the impetuosity of your youth. I have been guilty of a few Tarzan yodels and thumping of my chest too.
Little wonder that the side-neck-shot bullet was recovered, and the sound and sight of the hit was like that of a lightning bolt from directly overhead.
The Delta herd in Alaska was started in 1928 with Yellowstone plains bison by Judge E. B. Collins, Mayor of Fairbanks, AK. I hope your bull's kin are roaming about there now. Hopefully some of the genetics made it over to Kodiak Island where the Alaska Natives have a herd too.
Bubba has been at it again. The balls are seated by using a .45-70 Govt. seater die with properly shaped seater plug, to center the ball bearing, and pushing the bullet and balls up into the seater die with the usual short pusher rod from a LEE bullet sizer kit. Die and seater plug are adjusted in the press for a precise BOL every time with one pull of the press to bottom out.
This encourages even greater desire for a Hammer Bullets custom .458-400gr hunting bullet with a BC near 0.400. Simple as this (another repeat for emphasis):
The custom 400-grainer could be up to 1.500" long, the sleeker the better, with a 3mm hollow point diameter. Even though the unadulterated .458-402gr Shock Hammer with quarter-inch HP diameter is quite useful out to 300 yards, I can't help thinking about how fast it will shed those 2600 fps from a .458 WM+.
A review of the Layne Simpson article in the September 2021 SHOOTING TIMES follows.
The article is grandiosely entitled .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM -- THE COMPLETE STORY. HA !!! It comprises 3-1/2 pages of the page range 36 to 42, with 3-1/2 pages of advertising included in that range too. No two consecutive pages are devoted to the .458 Winchester Magnum. Not a single double-page spread to show respect for the magnificent war horse !
There are multiple inaccuracies in the first two sentences to quibble over. The .450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" was not immaculately conceived and named "back in 1898." The first one survived proof as a Rigby double rifle in November 1897 after years of development of brass cases and barrel steels, by John Rigby. Many sets of barrels were destroyed in proof before the correct steel and contours were found. The case that John Rigby loaded 70.0 grains of cordite into was not the "old .450 Black Powder Express" case. It was internally a new and stronger case. It was originally called the ".450 Special Rigby" and it took several years for the "Nitro Express" moniker to catch on for the entire class of big game cartridges that followed John Rigby's lead. True, W. Jackman Jeffery had a single barrel .400 S. Jeffery shooting a few months before the .450 S. Rigby, but it was also several years before it came to be called the 450/400 Nitro Express 3". I also think Jeffery developed his new and stronger brass from industrial espionage findings regarding John Rigby's "Special" developments. At least the author recognizes the basic ballistics first proving adequate for anything worldwide, but doesn't every Tom, Dick and Harry start his article similarly, if not so pompously inaccurately ?
The second paragraph quotes John Taylor's praise of the .450 Nitro Express 3-1/4".
The third paragraph beats the bush about interest in African safari by Americans and the Winchester M70 .375 H&H circa 1937.
The fourth paragraph: "During the 1940s, Alaska school teacher James Watts began planning a lengthy safari in Rhodesia and decided to duplicate the performance of the .450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" by necking up the .375 H&H Magnum for .458-inch 480-grain bullets made by Kynoch and fireforming the case to straight taper with no shoulder. He called it the .450 Watts, and obtaining a rifle was as easy as switching barrels on a Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H. Except for being 0.050 inch longer, the .450 Watts case is identical to the .458 Lott introduced about 30 years later."
I spewed my coffee when I read that paragraph, it is so comical. The "complete story" deserves better. To be continued.
I have my doubts on the ball improving expansion. My guess would be that one would see less expansion to poor performance but in experimental work; one moves in steps. Ron found a way to improve BC. Step one. One really need a pointed collapsing medium in that big cavity that would add to flight profile but collapse back to expose the hp on a rib shot. We can look to Hornady and others for the design shape. Bubba has to work with what he has.
I have my doubts on the ball improving expansion. My guess would be that one would see less expansion to poor performance but in experimental work; one moves in steps. Ron found a way to improve BC. Step one. One really need a pointed collapsing medium in that big cavity that would add to flight profile but collapse back to expose the hp on a rib shot. We can look to Hornady and others for the design shape. Bubba has to work with what he has.
The Hammer bullets shed the petals rather quickly which leads me to believe that expansion will be fine
Damn, hell of an animal Sir Woods, it's past time for me to go get another buffalo [bison], they're absolutely delicious, grilled, smoked or from Wife's favorite cast iron seasoned skillets.
Delicious for sure.
I still remember those packages you slipped me a few years ago.
DF
Glad to hear you enjoyed them DF, i'm ripping to find another buffalo hunt, going to be a bit different without Saint Bagwell.
Sirs, Allow me to resume with comments on paragraph four of Layne Simpson's "Incomplete Story" of the .458 Win. Mag.
The fourth paragraph: "During the 1940s, Alaska school teacher James Watts began planning a lengthy safari in Rhodesia and decided to duplicate the performance of the .450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" by necking up the .375 H&H Magnum for .458-inch 480-grain bullets made by Kynoch and fireforming the case to straight taper with no shoulder. He called it the .450 Watts, and obtaining a rifle was as easy as switching barrels on a Winchester Model 70 in .375 H&H. Except for being 0.050 inch longer, the .450 Watts case is identical to the .458 Lott introduced about 30 years later."
I read again the Cal Pappas biography of James Watts, to give proper context to the comic lines above. James Watts was born July 11, 1913, in Mulvane, Kansas, son of a Methodist Minister, George, and his wife Rebecca. His middle initial was "A." on a Boeing Engineer ID card circa 1945. His middle initial was "H." on a 1952 copyright for the .450 Watts Rimmed, a .458/.348 WCF. Nowhere in the book is this discrepancy addressed or clarified.
James started grade school in Oxford, Kansas in 1918. He attended college in Kansas and had a bachelor's degree by 1936. He taught at a Kansas high school, English and history, for one school year in 1936-1937. He had a summer job in San Antonio, Texas in 1937 where he became acquainted with the infant discipline of seismology being used in the oil fields. He went back to graduate school to study physics and geology from 1937 to 1938, but never got a master's degree. In the fall of 1937 he ordered a .375 H&H M70 from Winchester and eventually received the 17th rifle of that chambering.
In the spring of 1938 he heard a church lady in Kansas giving a presentation about Alaska and he "got the bug" to go there. She was the daughter of the mayor of Fairbanks, AK, pioneer Judge E. B. Collins, but had married and moved to Kansas. By the summer of 1938, young James Watts had landed at Seward, AK and boated over to Valdez where he started a 4-week, nearly 400-mile hike to Fairbanks. It was a solitary backpacking adventure and test of himself, carrying a 60-pound pack and his .375 H&H M70. He was about 5'6" tall with his boots on, and a skookum explorer.
James worked through the winter, all over interior AK, with Fairbanks as base, and Judge Collins setting him up for all sorts of labor and skilled jobs, from ditch digging to flying around for surveying and assaying mining claims. In the summer of 1939 he was ready to hike another 4 weeks to Valdez from Fairbanks, along the course of the Richardson Highway. He got charged by a grizzly boar along the way while he was wading a creek. James got one shot off with his .375 H&H before the bear slapped the 7.5"-barreled Colt New Service .45 LC off his hip when the bear bowled him over. Thus, in 1939, the .375 H&H and the .45 Long Colt had a baby, and it eventually grew into the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Returning to Seward by July of 1939, James Watts stayed there until December 1941, stevedoring, longshoring, and railroading. He married wife Bea there on October 30, 1941, just over a month before Pearl Harbor. She was from Montana, where her family still ranched. The couple were back in Kansas by January 1942. Bea got a job at Boeing. James enlisted but had asthma problems there in Kansas that got him medically discharged inside of 3 months. So James went to work at Boeing in Wichita, Kansas too, initially as a tool and die inspector and then finally as an engineer in the function testing division, sighting in the 50 BMG and 20mm Buford guns on the B-29 bombers being built by Boeing. James and Bea left Boeing in May of 1944, tried Seward, Alaska for a few months, but the employment did not invite that time, so onward to Montana from October 1944 to March 1945, to stay with Bea's parents while the couple looked for work.
James Watts went to NYC, NY in January 1945 and interviewed at the Standard Oil exploration division. Standard Oil did not pan out but he stopped in at Griffin & Howe's NYC shop and had his first thought of an African safari for himself. .303 British were the only rifles in stock at G&H's shop near the end of WWII, a disappointment for James the gunnutt.
The Watts returned to Boeing in early 1945, this time to Seattle, WA. But the A-bomb was dropped in August and massive layoffs from Boeing followed. By September 1945, James was hired as a teacher, thanks to the GI Bill boom in education for returning military servicemen. That trickled down (or up) to high school teacher employment too. James and Bea settled in Yakima, WA, he as a teacher of history and coach of football, wrestling, and track, she as a secretary.
James was a winning football coach his first year. The captain of the HS team was Harvey B. Anderson, Jr. Harvey Senior was a gunsmith-inventor-tinkerer and had an apartment to rent to James and Bea. They really hit it off.
By early 1946 Harvey, Sr. had re-chambered a .35 Remington take-off barrel to .35 Whelen Improved on a G-33 Mauser. James Watts stocked that rifle himself, his first from scratch. During the period 1945 to 1947 James Watts claimed to have written to Winchester twice, about necking up the .375 H&H to .458. The first time he was rebuffed with a reply that the British had the big bore market sewn up and that nothing bigger than .375 H&H was need in NA. The second time he did not get a reply.
In the summer of 1946, James and Bea and Bea's brother Edward went on a 400-mile hike/"vacation" in the Northwest Territory of Canada. It was a doozy. He used the .35 Whelen Improved to feed the crew. They got back late for school and James had to sit out the rest of the school year, but resumed teaching at the Yakima, WA high school in fall 1947. They lived in the Anderson apartment again, adjacent to the gunsmith shop. Watts began tinkering with his "idea" and by 1948 Anderson was on board by making the reamer. By 1949 the first complete .450 Watts Magnum rifle was produced. Anderson installed a P. O. Ackley barrel on an opened-up FN Mauser.
It went like gangbusters for a while. For Christmas vacation in 1949, James Watts visited Roy Weatherby in CA. Roy's biggest gun then was the .375 Weatherby Magnum. 1949-1950, Ralph Hammer wrote of the .450 Watts Magnum in "a national hunting magazine." 1950: Fred Barnes started making 400-, 500-, and 600-gr, heavy-jacketed (0.049" thickness) bullets in .458 caliber. Kynoch 480-grainers were too fragile. Harvey B. Anderson, Sr. copyrighted the .450 Watts Magnum. 1950-1952, Fred Ness of the AMERICAN RIFLEMAN research lab got a .450 Watts Magnum and did an extensive writeup, and Jack O'Connor took one to Africa. 1951-1952, James Watts shortened the case to 2.5" and called it the .450 Watts Short. 1952-1954, Watts corresponded with Winchester and says he "gave them a release" so they could produce the .450 Watts Short as the .458 Winchester Magnum. Winchester did not do it short to make it fit into a standard M98 ! They did it for ease of fitting it into an un-opened-up Pre-'64 M70 which is the same length action as used for the .30-06 !
Meanwhile, James and Bea Watts moved back to Seattle in spring 1950 where work was beginning on a "stratocruiser" that eventually led to the B-52 bomber. Thank the Cold War for that uptick in employment. James worked the night shift as a Boeing engineer and he taught at the University of Washington school of mines, daytime. All that for a year. In spring of 1951 to December 1951, James returned to Seward, AK to work on highway and bridge construction from Seward to Anchorage. January 1952 to "spring" 1952 James returned to his dual gig at Boeing and U. of WA. In the spring of 1952, James and Bea drove to Alaska to stay. He continued highway construction work until beginning a high school teaching job in the fall of 1952 in Seward.
FINALLY HE BECAME AN ALASKAN TEACHER LIKE LAYNE SIMPSON SAID IN HIS GROSS OVERSIMPLIFICATION. James Watts did not dream up the .450 Watts Magnum to use Kynoch bullets in Rhodesia. He hated Kynoch bullets in the .450 Watts Magnum. He dreamed up a transcontinental African safari in 1958, after he and Bea recovered from the polio epidemic that hit Seward in 1956. James was mildly afflicted, Bea had it pretty bad.
There is much more needed to complete the "Incomplete Story" of the .458 Winchester Magnum by Layne Simpson. To be continued with his next commission and/or omissions.
Sir John, Buy a donkey for your positive opinion on whether Bubba's Ballpoint Hammer Shock bullet will expand. Though I do understand the concern of Sir Dennis, maybe the final refinement will be best. I take a .460" diameter nitro card wad from Circle Fly and punch a 0.250" diameter wad out of its center, drop the bead in, then push in the snug fitting little card, and seat the steel ball bearing atop the HP. Same beautiful contour and BOL as the double steel ball. The plastic bead is easily crushed when the steel ball rams home, should encourage expansion. Seating a second steel ball after the first one may not be as securely gripping on the exposed ball. Sloppy seconds ! Plus, two steel balls are too heavy. Might as well use a 450-gr TSX !
Just another bullet for the 400-grainer shootoff, to see what happens to 400-grainer velocity when the bullet weight is increased by 23 grains, all with same powder charge: 80 grains of AA-2230.
Ron Since son has been an Airsoft crank for some years now and I’ve got a couple of dents in my head from opposing forces, I can tell you all Airsoft bb’s are not equal. 15 gram to 45 grams with same diameter and the 45’s at 450 FPS will darned sure draw blood and leave a heck of a welt. I’ll spare you the pictures. So using the 15’s or 25’s and drilling a hole in them to provide a point of collapse would be my suggestion. Trapped in that hole they won’t collapse easily. Getting the whole BC improved shape to collapse inward enough and soon enough will be the key to getting that open point to do its work. Kudos for the whole effort and best regards.
Sir Dennis, Buy a donkey for the suggestion, but no drilling of Air Soft beads for me just yet. Initial R&D with the .458-423gr Ball Point Shock Hammer will proceed. I will shoot some 402-gr Shock Hammers alongside the 423-gr Nitro Bubba just for accuracy and velocity check, using the 80-gr charge of AA-2230. Both will have 0.380" seating depth. The Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX with 76 grains of "maybe-same" powder and short COL will make for an interesting comparison.
And that reminds me of the "Incomplete Story" of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Layne Simpson did not mention the throat anywhere in his 3-1/2 page "Incomplete Story." How complete is that ? The only way the .450 Watts Magnum could have approached its claimed performance would be by throat, plus a generous helping of exaggeration or inaccurate instrumentation. The only way that the .458 Winchester Magnum can actually beat the .458 Lott at same or lesser COL is by throat, no exaggeration required, just the truth. No mention of the short, tight throat of the .458 Lott. He also does not mention the COL problems of the .458 Lott, COL often exceeding 3.600" SAAMI restriction. Yet he insists on limiting the .458 WM to 3.340" COL and an effective case length of 1.875" with a bullet seated to 0.625" depth for his conniving of load comparisons. He does not mention the SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure, higher for the .458 Lott than the .458 WM. It is journalistic malpractice.
My first buffalo was a water buffalo, a killer cow:
Bubalis bubalis mad cow that was killing sheep on a Western Kentucky farm. She had to be culled. When farmer sold the dominant bull, the old cow went mad. Farmer called me and I went out to the farm with a Mk V Deluxe .460 Wby and 500-gr RNSN at supposed 2700 fps, a factory load. My gunbearer carried the featherweight Pre-'64 M70 .375 H&H that was required for the second shot with a 300-grain Swift A-Frame bullet at about 2500 fps.
A shot to middle of chest at 50 yards on the running cow just made her come to a standstill, stood there bleeding from the nose. A shot to the neck with the .375 H&H dropped her. The .375 H&H through neck exited. The .460 Wby in the chest did not. As my gunbearer and I hurriedly skinned the mad cow, we could not find anything of the 500-gr RNSN in the mess inside the mad cow's chest. She did not kill anymore livestock at the farm.
I can now imagine how a properly loaded .458 Winchester Magnum might be a better buffalo rifle than a .460 Wby for several reasons. It would also be perfect for plains game, like this blue wildebeest taken at 150 yards with the same .375 H&H. The handloaded 300-gr Barnes X-Bullet at 2530 fps MV was a one-shot killer on my first African game, the poor man's buffalo:
A 400-gr to 450-gr TSX from a .458 WM would be perfect for that too. Velocities of 2400 fps to 2600 fps would do fine out to 300 yards, whatever the BC. If not for Lottite lies in my days of gullibility I could have used a .458 Winchester Magnum.
"Farmer called me and I went out to the farm with a Mk V Deluxe .460 Wby and 500-gr RNSN at supposed 2700 fps, a factory load."
"A shot to middle of chest at 50 yards on the running cow just made her come to a standstill, stood there bleeding from the nose".
"As my gunbearer and I hurriedly skinned the mad cow, we could not find anything of the 500-gr RNSN in the mess inside the mad cow's chest."
Ron, I noted a difference in bullet design (More lead exposed in the tip) from late 80's to late 90's in that Hornady 500 grainer so it was evolving in design or retooled? Secondly, I shot that bullet loaded to 2500fps into a scrub bull's shoulder and it expanded and stopped in the membrane behind the shoulder between the shoulder muscle and ribs but did not penetrate the rib cage. Shot the balance of what I had loaded up on pigs and brumbies (wild horses) after that.
I think that bullet as released to the handloader was only ever designed for the 2100ish of the .458. It is also possible that Hornady did a slightly heavier jacketed version for the Weatherby Factory Ammo as I also noted 2 different .416 cal 400 gain Hornady bullets. After owning 3 .416 Weathery's and a .416 Remington, I noted that the factory Weatherby ammo had a more parallel sided body shape meeting with the round nose whereas the handloader version had a .416 shank to the cannelure then a tapered ogive to meet up with the round nose. It was obviously different.
I tried to get a box of factory .416 ammo for comparison but the distributor told me they were too expensive to give away to writers even though I wrote more articles on Weatherby rifles that the whole market combined back then. To be fair, he did send me a complimentary Weatherby The Man, The Gun, The Legend Book which I appreciated.
I noted a difference in bullet design (More lead exposed in the tip) from late 80's to late 90's in that Hornady 500 grainer so it was evolving in design or retooled? Secondly, I shot that bullet loaded to 2500fps into a scrub bull's shoulder and it expanded and stopped in the membrane behind the shoulder between the shoulder muscle and ribs but did not penetrate the rib cage. Shot the balance of what I had loaded up on pigs and brumbies (wild horses) after that.
AH SO ! My .460 factory ammo from Weatherby was from late 1980's to late 1990's production. At faster velocity into a bovine ribcage the old Hornady bullet disintegrated instead of over-expanding and being stopped by shoulder.
I think that bullet as released to the handloader was only ever designed for the 2100ish of the .458.
My 1987 vintage Hornady .458-500gr RNSN was over stressed by being handloaded to 2150 fps MV from a 24"-barreled .458 WM. It separated into 3 chunks, an intact, empty jacket and 2 chunks of lead on a cow moose (special drawing permit at Fort Richardson, AK). Each of the 3 bullet chunks broke a rib on the offside of the cow moose. Bang flop. It was a spectacular success of a bullet failure: 600 pounds of processed deliciousness from the butcher shop.
It is also possible that Hornady did a slightly heavier jacketed version for the Weatherby Factory Ammo as I also noted 2 different .416 cal 400 gain Hornady bullets. After owning 3 .416 Weathery's and a .416 Remington, I noted that the factory Weatherby ammo had a more parallel sided body shape meeting with the round nose whereas the handloader version had a .416 shank to the cannelure then a tapered ogive to meet up with the round nose. It was obviously different.
Hornady ! Bless their hearts they finally came up with some decent softnose-expanding bullets with the DGX Bonded. I suspected same as you with those older cup&core designs. Another thing I noted when I first started shooting the .416 Rigby, was that the old Swift A-Frame 400-grainer, when seated to the cannelure, could not be chambered in the no-throat .416 Rigby, due to the bullet being full .416" diameter forward of the cannelure. Later the Swift ogive changed to fit in the .416 Rigby.
I tried to get a box of factory .416 ammo for comparison but the distributor told me they were too expensive to give away to writers even though I wrote more articles on Weatherby rifles that the whole market combined back then. To be fair, he did send me a complimentary Weatherby The Man, The Gun, The Legend Book which I appreciated. END QUOTE
Originally Posted by AussieGunWriter
John
Sir Woods,
I have that book about Roy on my shelf, by Grits Gresham and Tom Gresham, for reference purposes, of course, not hero worship. Whenever I came into "big walkin' around money," I used to go buy a box of .416 Weatherby Magnum ammo for my stash. Just preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse.
M98, M70, or M77 (CRF) SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, with a standard 3.42" inside-length magazine box.
Load that box with 3.340" COL routinely. Single load with special purpose rounds up to 3.540" COL.
3.540" COL is the maximum, unfired COL that can be ejected by cranking the bolt of my rifles.
We can get about any .458-400gr bullet to surpass 2400 fps MV from a 24" barrel at 3.340" COL. That is really plenty for all-purpose use.
Special Purpose: We can get a selected 400-grainer over 2500 fps from a 24" barrel at 3.395" COL. We can get a selected 400-grainer over 2600 fps from a 24" barrel at 3.425" COL. The former works through the magazine of the Standard rifle, the latter does not. Single load the latter.
Sir Jerry, Yes, I was researching "Mad Cow Disease" circa 1995, before it was "a thing." Buy a Donkey for that funny. You are certainly well armed with a 450-gr TSX from a .458 WM+ at 2420 fps MV. I would fear no mad cow even if I limited myself to 2400 fps with a .458/ 400-grainer.
I am thinking about 30 rounds is the recommended interval for cleaning of a mixed fouling with gilding metal, brass/bronze, and copper-monometal bullets. Daisy was tried with a pin gage when she was so fouled. .450" would not pass her muzzle. .449" would enter and catch on the fouling a few inches down the barrel. So the Ruger No. 1 .458 WM might be a true .450"-bore by pin gage, and .459"-grooved by slugging when clean.
I still say that the cleanest shooting ammunition that I know of is duplexed BP under a grease cookie and a paper-patched lead bullet. Self-cleaned by the paper patch with each shot. The .458 WM is ideal for those if allowed to be loaded Long-COL.
Besides the duplexed BP, many smokeless powders are excellent in the .458 Winchester Magnum. About anything between the burn rates of H4895 and AA-5744 will find a job to do. The SAAMI .458 WM at 3.340" and 60,000 psi will do it all from a 24" barrel: 600-grainer at 2000 fps 550-grainer at 2100 fps 500-grainer at 2200 fps 450-grainer at 2300 fps 400-grainer at 2400 fps 350-grainer at 2600 fps 300-grainer at 2800 fps (vaporization velocity of Sierra Pro Hunter, so use a monometal for sure at or above this velocity) 250 grainer at 3000 fps
The only thing of consequence that the .458 Lott can do any better is birdshot loads for a rat killin'.
Q: How are big-D Democrats and Lottites similar ? A: In more ways than they are different. They are both habitual practitioners of sophistry, the use of fallacious arguments with the intention of deceiving.
Bubba wants to redesign the XTSX .458-400-grainer, thinking it would be best to shorten the nose a little so he does not have to excavate so much copper out of the hollowpoint to make exactly 400.0-grain weight. Actually that 400-gr TSX from Buffalo bore is almost perfect, Next outing I will compare the factory load at 3.310" COL to a 3.540" COL with mo'powder.
Ron, Something not covered much in this thread is cartridge feeding. Obviously, I have had opportunity to handle a few different rifles over the years but I must comment that the .458 has to be the slickest easy to feed cartridge in my safe and among the top 2 I can recall for slick feeding. A magazine full plus one is as smooth as mechanical thrust can allow.
This equates to a reliability and trustworthiness that is a positive aspect when stalking game. A dangerous game rifle is both tool and life insurance policy. The trust has to be submissive, so that it never again enters your mind. Coming from a guy who lives by "trust nothing and check everything", my .458 Model 70 is as slick as a Honeymoon d*ck. John
Ron, Something not covered much in this thread is cartridge feeding. Obviously, I have had opportunity to handle a few different rifles over the years but I must comment that the .458 has to be the slickest easy to feed cartridge in my safe and among the top 2 I can recall for slick feeding. A magazine full plus one is as smooth as mechanical thrust can allow.
This equates to a reliability and trustworthiness that is a positive aspect when stalking game. A dangerous game rifle is both tool and life insurance policy. The trust has to be submissive, so that it never again enters your mind. Coming from a guy who lives by "trust nothing and check everything", my .458 Model 70 is as slick as a Honeymoon d*ck. John
Ron, Something not covered much in this thread is cartridge feeding ,,, my .458 Model 70 is as slick as a Honeymoon d*ck. John
Sir Woods, Buy a donkey for that funny. Sure as shootin' an important reminder and a hoot to boot. Maybe little mentioned previously because the mighty .458 WM is so trouble free. It is time for me to get back to bolt actions. Daisy the Ruger No. 1 was rode hard Friday but not put up wet. 44 rounds fired at 85 degrees F, at a 100-yard target, through a 5-yard chronograph. Will put up some reports on the so-called 400-grainer Shootoff after my nap.
Many smokeless powders are excellent in the .458 Winchester Magnum. About anything between the burn rates of H4895 and AA-5744 will find a job to do. The SAAMI .458 WM at 3.340" and 60,000 psi will do it all from a 24" barrel: 600-grainer at 2000 fps 1978fps using 72gn AR2206 with Barnes Original .049"Jacket RN 550-grainer at 2100 fps 2048fps using 70gn H 322 with Woodleigh 550gn Weldcore 500-grainer at 2200 fps 2178fps using 78gn AR2206 with Hornady 500gnRN FMJ 450-grainer at 2300 fps 2359fps using 68gn H4198 with Barnes 450gn TSX 400-grainer at 2400 fps 2434fps using 74gn H4198 with Barnes 400gn X bullet 350-grainer at 2600 fps 2582fps using 78gn H4198 or 2556fps using 80gn H322 300-grainer at 2800 fps 2640fps using 75gn AR2207 with 300gn Barnes X (H4198)or 2545fps using78gn H322 with 300gn Barnes 45/70HP 250 grainer at 3000 fps I have not used 250grainers in the .458 though achieved 2650fps in a 45/70 using 60gn H4198 with Barnes 250gn TSX HP in the Marlin Cowboy 26" Barrel.
Ron, To help the reader understand the accuracy and achieve-ability in what you stated above, I will add a few loads utilizing the stated SAAMI specs taken with a 22" barrel excepting the 600gn loads, shot using a CZ550 with 25" barrel.
NOTE: All loads chronographed on my Oehler 35P and I never correct muzzle velocities so a few FPS can be added to round up the numbers if you wish.
Buy a donkey to Sir Woods for this, in The SAAMI .458 WM at 3.340" and 60,000 psi, some good data for the record:
600-grainer: 1978fps using 72gn AR2206 with Barnes Original .049"Jacket RN 550-grainer: 2048fps using 70gn H 322 with Woodleigh 550gn Weldcore 500-grainer: 2178fps using 78gn AR2206 with Hornady 500gnRN FMJ 450-grainer: 2359fps using 68gn H4198 with Barnes 450gn TSX 400-grainer: 2434fps using 74gn H4198 with Barnes 400gn X bullet 350-grainer: 2582fps using 78gn H4198 or 2556fps using 80gn H322 300-grainer: 2640fps using 75gn AR2207 with 300gn Barnes X (H4198)or 2545fps using78gn H322 with 300gn Barnes 45/70HP 250 grainer: I have not used 250grainers in the .458 though achieved 2650fps in a 45/70 using 60gn H4198 with Barnes 250gn TSX HP in the Marlin Cowboy 26" Barrel. ... a few loads utilizing the stated SAAMI specs (.458 Winchester Magnum) taken with a 22" barrel excepting the 600gn loads, shot using a CZ550 with 25" barrel.
NOTE: All loads chronographed on my Oehler 35P and I never correct muzzle velocities so a few FPS can be added to round up the numbers if you wish.
Alas, the 400-grainer Shootoff with Daisy the Ruger No. 1 has been marred by the old girl developing some vertical stringing, or by the nut behind the trigger developing it. I will check out all of Daisy's joints for tightness, at buttstock-to-action, forearm hanger, quarter rib, and scope.
At least I think the velocity data is good, even if accuracy comparisons must wait. I had 29 pieces of brass ready for handloads, and fired 10 rounds of the Buffalo Bore ammo and 5 rounds of Hornady factory ammo. Handloads were for 5 bullets of each of 5 different bullets except 4 only of the Barnes Buster to make a total of 29. 29 + 10 + 5 = 44
First load fired was the ball-pointed 423-grainer from Bubba. It was aimed at the center line between two 16" square targets at 100 yards, one above the other, no space between them on the cardboard backer. First two shots were touching and near center of lower target. Then they started "walking" vertically:
Scope adjustments allowed the 402-gr Shock Hammer to hit near the Point Of Aim, with the thought going forward being to use first two shots to judge a scope adjustment for the next 3 shots
Buffalo Bore claimed 2250 fps for their load with the Barnes 400-gr TSX in a 22"-barreled factory M70, .458 WM. Daisy's 24" Ruger barrel made it do 2336 fps MV for an average of 10 shot. First 5 shots of the TSX after the Hammer bullets:
Last 5 shots of the day fired after 39 preceding, and no scope adjustment for this one:
If the 400-gr TSX (BOL 1.390") is loaded with 76.0 grains of AA-2230 at 3.310" COL, then LR = 108.6%, consistent with Buffalo Bore load.
The 400-gr TSX with 80.0 grains of AA-2230 has 3.540" COL , then LR = 100.7%, consistent with my handload.
All handloads above used 80.0 grains of AA-2230. 402-gr Shock Hammer: 100.7% LR 400-gr Woodleigh: 96.2% LR 400-gr Barnes Buster: 95.3% LR 407-gr Hardcast: 99.4%
Fastest load was the hardcast and had the shortest COL at 3.260", 2477 fps 5-yard velocity, not compressed, audible powder shake. BHN 25 of water-dropped Magnum Shot plus 50:50 solder, I bet it is malleable enough, not as brittle as the softer Linotype. It has proven accurate at 2170 fps with AA-2495. This maybe the most exciting discovery of the 400-grainer Shootoff. A tight rifle would have told the accuracy story.
What is interesting about Ron's groups is that if they were fired open sight there would be a lot more back slapping, especially when the shooter is suffering from "Post 49 Syndrome" which is known to affect accuracy shooting.
With the shape of those groups I would be checking the foreend, changing the scope and/or re-shooting with a known load, and also taking a closer look at the hardness/firmness of the rifle forearm stand and if the forearm was held to reduce barrel lift. No pics of the rifle rest so am guessing here, but a rested forearm which is hand held offers best support and control of the big boomers although that No 1, with classic stock design is a pile driver in rearwards thrust as I recall.
"With the shape of those groups I would be checking the foreend, changing the scope and/or re-shooting with a known load, and also taking a closer look at the hardness/firmness of the rifle forearm stand and if the forearm was held to reduce barrel lift. No pics of the rifle rest so am guessing here, but a rested forearm which is hand held offers best support and control of the big boomers although that No 1, with classic stock design is a pile driver in rearwards thrust as I recall."
Great advise from Sir Woods. I am doing all that after the WIPE-OUT cleaning in progress now, procrastinator I am with smokeless.
Daisy has always had a tendency to loosen her forearm, which is the only screw I have ever had a noticeable loosening of with each outing. The forearm attachment will be thoroughly checked. It was bedded with J-B Weld. The slotted head screw can be replaced with a hex head screw for a pocket tool: Tighten more frequently.
I always grip the forearm firmly and rest the foream and buttstock on sandbags, and sit erect as possible, rifle high on the rests. The slice of HD foam rubber squeezed snugly between my shoulder and the rifle butt before each shot prevents all discomfort at the bench. What happens at the bench stays at the bench, no walking around wearing a sissy pad.
I need to get the buttpad off and check the buttstock screw. I need to get the scope off and check the quarter rib attachment. I check all ring screws before each outing and never see any appreciable loosening. A previous Nikon SlugHunter scope on a bolt action lasted about 400 rounds before it got replaced by warranty. Probably close to 400 rounds on this Nikon InLine scope now. Nikon is out of the scope business now. The scope will get checked. Hopefully not neccesary to trash a scope after every 400 rounds on a .458 WM. I have more Leupolds than anything else and they are still in business.
A nice picture as a header to start page 49, about the superb feeder, the .458 WM, feeding being so important for a bolt action DGR. It is ironic that the first one tested by General Hatcher in 1955 had "issues" with feeding, but not with ballistics.
Dumb A$$ Lying Lottite Evil Doers, DALLEDs are so like DALDEDs. Such a pity. With enough repetition, the truth may get into their thick skulls to displace the too often repeated propaganda.
Sir Jerry, Yes, I was researching "Mad Cow Disease" circa 1995, before it was "a thing." Buy a Donkey for that funny. You are certainly well armed with a 450-gr TSX from a .458 WM+ at 2420 fps MV. I would fear no mad cow even if I limited myself to 2400 fps with a .458/ 400-grainer.
Yessir, and you're most welcome Sir Ron, i'm still playing step and fetch-em catch up around here, be more than glad when the grass dies, and frost covers the fall leaves in the woods.
YESSIRREE ! Tick and chigger killing frost ! What a joyful time is winter ! The old 14th century philosophical scholar was right again, William of Ockham.
RC the 2 part epoxy that is used to inbed all thread in to concrete works a lot better than jb weld. you don't need the long nozzle or the double tube gun to apply it just use something to push out the same amount then mix well
RC the 2 part epoxy that is used to inbed all thread in to concrete works a lot better than jb weld. you don't need the long nozzle or the double tube gun to apply it just use something to push out the same amount then mix well
Buy a donkey for the tip, 44mc, I will look for that all-thread-into-concrete epoxy at Lowe's and Home Depot. Too late for Daisy ! Your support of the Crusade for Truth is appreciated. Tell us your "Sir Name" if you want to be "Knighted."
Daisy will live to do battle again, with more frequent checking of her screw.
Definitely, holding Daisy down on the bags at the bench is harder on her forend screw. Stress on that screw will be much less offhand or off standing rest, etc. The sissy pad is not needed offhand, of course, and though this might be a .416 Weatherby (example below), Daisy gets shot from the same bags and pads at the bench:
Offhand holds can utilize grips that tend to keep the forend from being ripped off.
Definitely, holding Daisy down on the bags at the bench is harder on her forend screw. Stress on that screw will be much less offhand or off standing rest, etc. The sissy pad is not needed offhand, of course, and though this might be a .416 Weatherby (example below), Daisy gets shot from the same bags and pads at the bench:
Offhand holds can utilize grips that tend to keep the forend from being ripped off.
Light load grip:
Heavy load grip:
If you put anything between your shoulder and the rifle-a sand bag, anything and it slips or displaces while you shoot you can injure yourself.
I once had a sand bag slip and got full Lott recoil on the collar bone-my eyes were in tears following.
you better be wearing your shooting helmet next time you try something like that.
I now have dozens of 10x32-1" screws for Daisy. Might change them every hundred rounds and for sure keep them properly torqued. This alluring fashion accessory modeled by her here is a stainless model instead of the black oxide finish ...
... also has a skinny little flat washer to make sure I am not bottoming out the screw when I torque it to 65 inch-pounds with the F.A.T. Wrench and a hex bit. This is as comforting as a My Pillow travel pillow. Nothing else was loose or askew in the all inclusive check. Occam's razor.
RC I might not be Night material I only have a lowly 4570 sir
44mc,Maybe you can change your handle to Sir Ken Knigghet? (from Holly Grael of course)
LOL, funny stuff men, 44, do not be dismayed young man, Saint Bagwell came to be known as just that with a lowly 45-70 Sharps rifle.
All things .458 cal for "The Crusade Of Truth!"
If i have stepped out of line, Sir Ron may bust me back to shoveling stalls till deer season! ; ]
Sir Jerry is spot on, wouldn't bust him even if I could !
Sir Woods is a .460 Weatherby Magnum nut, and he makes great contributions to the Crusade, except for the comment about Sir Ken Knigghet from Holly Grael that went right over my head.
Sir Saint Bagwell was a .45-70 Gov't. nut and immeasurably supported the Mission that transformed into the Crusade, which he continues to contribute to from the Happy Hunting Ground.
So, 44mc, what is your "Sir Name " ? Sir Jerry can lay the flat of his Bagwell on you whenever it is convenient.
The latest edition of MUZZLE BLASTS, August 2021, has an article entitled "Gibbs Metford Thousand Yard Rifle," pp 10-13 by Fred Stutzenberger, which starts like this:
"The 1860s were the decade in which the breechloading rifle made its serious debut as the replacement for its muzzleloading predecessor. Ironically, that same decade witnessed the zenith of performance in long-range muzzleloading accuracy."
A quote from William Ellis Metford is also included:
"I recommend weighing powder to a quarter of a grain. I find from careful experimentation that at 1,000 yards, 95 grains will throw the bullet nearly 4.5 minutes of angle higher than 90 grains and about 2.25 minutes of angle at 500 yards. This will equal 9 inches per grain at 1000 yards, and 2.25 inches at 500 yards. No flask will with any certainty throw its charges nearer than 1.5 grains. Many first-rate shots have thought they could throw charges to much less, but in every case where I have tested this belief I have found a variation of at least 1.5 grains before 12 charges were given."
However, William Ellis Metford only obsessed and compulsed when it mattered:
"The bullets supplied for my rifle are all weighed, and in any given box are within five grains of each other as the limit of difference. I find this is amply correct enough. Unlike the powder item, there happens to be, for moderate differences in weight of bullets, a compensating action, which exhibits itself especially at the long ranges."
Apparently he was never knighted by the Queen, and was never referred to as "Sir William Ellis Metford" even though his buddy Sir Henry Halford was a regular champion of the matches, using the Metford rifling, including 2000-yard muzzleloader matches. Metford received royalties from the British Government for use of his rifling in military rifles on into the 1890s.
I recommend that Sir Saint Metford be Knighted for the Crusade, posthumously. His muzzleloaders showed the way to the.461 Gibbs-Metford breech loaders and .45-70 Gov't. across the pond which showed the way to the .458 Winchester Magnum. The .458 Lott was a step backwards.
Sir Allen it is. That is my middle name also, two "L's" and an "E" close enough to ALL IN.
The MISSION that became a CRUSADE has been well and truly won.
The Knighthood will now be known as the "Brotherhood of the Forty-Five Bore." The Brotherhood is ALL IN for the .458 Winchester Magnum. We get together here to share experiences with any useful .45-bore rifle and demonstrate how the .458 Winchester Magnum can be loaded down and loaded up for spectacular performance on either side of SAAMI .458 WM ballistics, often with advantages such as increased magazine capacity (compared to the .460 Wby), perfect throat for cast bullets including paper patched, etc. .450 Nitro Express ballistics is just the middle ground for the mighty .458 Winchester Magnum.
We also like to make fun of the SAAMI .458 Lott, a most ridiculous abortion of a cartridge. Always good for a laugh.
Do you think the 400-450 TSX will expand in whitetail deer RC?
Never thought about plunking one of them into a buck.
Sir Scotty,
Sure it will if it is going 1600 fps or greater. At that impact speed it would be more likely to expand than the lighter .458-400gr X. Sectional density drives degree of bullet expansion for any given impact velocity. But not to worry, if it is a .458-450gr bullet, or a .458-400gr bullet, either one, the deer will likely fall like this one did:
Probably less meat loss than happens with those rat calibers at high velocity.
Thanks RC. I wanna get the 458 out a little this year. Debating on sticking with the 250 Hornady Mono's or trying something larger. I would like to scoop up some of the 300 grain Barnes TTSX's if I ever catch them for sale. It'd just be for deer hunting this year, so I am pretty sure anything will work decent.
If you want to eat the deer, I recommend a 400 to 510 gr bullet @ modest velocity. I have killed several Sitka Blacktails with the 400 gr8 X bullet @ 2400 +2380 fps mv @ various ranges . they work great and don't bloodshock the meat . As long as you don't hit a major bone. The 300 gr TSX and TTSX @ 2700 +fps mv are too much of a good thing . head, high neck or center of the ribs broadside are the only shots that won't waste I bunch of meat. I've killed 28 deer @ last count with the 458 Winchester . It works GREAT ! My favorite load for deer is the factory Winchester 510 gr soft nose . With the big bluish lead nose.
Do you think the 400-450 TSX will expand in whitetail deer RC?
Never thought about plunking one of them into a buck.
Sir Scotty,
Sure it will if it is going 1600 fps or greater. At that impact speed it would be more likely to expand than the lighter .458-400gr X. Sectional density drives degree of bullet expansion for any given impact velocity. But not to worry, if it is a .458-450gr bullet, or a .458-400gr bullet, either one, the deer will likely fall like this one did:
Probably less meat loss than happens with those rat calibers at high velocity.
Thanks RC. I wanna get the 458 out a little this year. Debating on sticking with the 250 Hornady Mono's or trying something larger. I would like to scoop up some of the 300 grain Barnes TTSX's if I ever catch them for sale. It'd just be for deer hunting this year, so I am pretty sure anything will work decent.
If you want to eat the deer, I recommend a 400 to 510 gr bullet @ modest velocity. I have killed several Sitka Blacktails with the 400 gr8 X bullet @ 2400 +2380 fps mv @ various ranges . they work great and don't bloodshock the meat . As long as you don't hit a major bone. The 300 gr TSX and TTSX @ 2700 +fps mv are too much of a good thing . head, high neck or center of the ribs broadside are the only shots that won't waste I bunch of meat. I've killed 28 deer @ last count with the 458 Winchester . It works GREAT ! My favorite load for deer is the factory Winchester 510 gr soft nose . With the big bluish lead nose.
I thought I'd post a pic of the small Fallow deer I harvested with my .458 I was using a reload consisting of a Winchester case, 74gns of AR2206H, 480gn Woodleigh SP and CCI 250 Mag primer. I admit, I was expecting caliber sized entry and caliber sized exit.
That was just a couple of grains of powder above max for the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual. That 480-gr Woodleigh probably expanded promptly, eh ?
Of course, in Australia there may be no bag limits and game meat is not hoarded like we do it on this side of the pond. See Sir Spruce's recommendations on .458 WinMag deer bullets if meat preservation is a concern:
Originally Posted by CTF
If you want to eat the deer, I recommend a 400 to 510 gr bullet @ modest velocity. I have killed several Sitka Blacktails with the 400 gr8 X bullet @ 2400 +2380 fps mv @ various ranges . they work great and don't bloodshock the meat . As long as you don't hit a major bone. The 300 gr TSX and TTSX @ 2700 +fps mv are too much of a good thing . head, high neck or center of the ribs broadside are the only shots that won't waste I bunch of meat. I've killed 28 deer @ last count with the 458 Winchester . It works GREAT ! My favorite load for deer is the factory Winchester 510 gr soft nose . With the big bluish lead nose.
There are plenty of choices, even down to .45-cal 300-grainer at as slow as 1600 fps MV impacting at 50 yards for a total bang flop on deer. I have done that with a .454 Casull revolver on a nice fallow buck. This is an example of comparative ballistics. Even the Sierra ProHunter .458/300-grainer would be a dandy deer bullet in the .458 WinMag if you keep it below 2000 fps. Sir Russ was a little over 2100 fps with his 480-grain Woodleigh soft I reckon.
LOL Sir Ron, that whole deal came to surface a couple days ago, was at Mom's and someone had a drivers license question, i pulled mine out, had my plandemic kung fu flu haircut in the photo i gave myself out on the shop with horse shears, Mom saw the pic and cried, she said you look just like you did in kindergarten, where did the time go?
Do remember several times over the years of her saying i had been shooting with Dad, Gramps and Uncs by then, also remember her saying i didn't like the photographer, looking at that pic you posted all blown up, i was probably wondering if i could whoop his ass ; ]
To "The Crusade Of Truth" 458 WM+ full speed ahead and no prisoners will be taken!
Sir Russ, good shooting Sir, bet that thing was delicious.
That was just a couple of grains of powder above max for the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual. That 480-gr Woodleigh probably expanded promptly, eh ?
Of course, in Australia there may be no bag limits and game meat is not hoarded like we do it on this side of the pond. See Sir Spruce's recommendations on .458 WinMag deer bullets if meat preservation is a concern:
Originally Posted by CTF
If you want to eat the deer, I recommend a 400 to 510 gr bullet @ modest velocity. I have killed several Sitka Blacktails with the 400 gr8 X bullet @ 2400 +2380 fps mv @ various ranges . they work great and don't bloodshock the meat . As long as you don't hit a major bone. The 300 gr TSX and TTSX @ 2700 +fps mv are too much of a good thing . head, high neck or center of the ribs broadside are the only shots that won't waste I bunch of meat. I've killed 28 deer @ last count with the 458 Winchester . It works GREAT ! My favorite load for deer is the factory Winchester 510 gr soft nose . With the big bluish lead nose.
There are plenty of choices, even down to .45-cal 300-grainer at as slow as 1600 fps MV impacting at 50 yards for a total bang flop on deer. I have done that with a .454 Casull revolver on a nice fallow buck. This is an example of comparative ballistics. Even the Sierra ProHunter .458/300-grainer would be a dandy deer bullet in the .458 WinMag if you keep it below 2000 fps. Sir Russ was a little over 2100 fps with his 480-grain Woodleigh soft I reckon.
Sir Ron,
That load measured spot on 2150fps 3m from my chronograph. I thought it might have touched 2200fps but I was very happy with 2150fps. It sure as heck must've opened up and I tell you, we lost some good meat which kinda sucked... but boy o boy, it sure dropped the deer!
Sir Ron thos loads are top notch. Jeff Cooper's 460 G&A fired the 500 grain at 2400 FPS claimed effectiveness was spectacular. At 2350 has to been a duplication of performance
Me too. Hammer Bullets are as precisely manufactured as you will find. I will start corresponding with them about making a 400-grainer of higher BC than the current .458-402g Shock Hammer. 2500 fps in the .458 WM Sub-3.4" 2600 fps in the .458 WM+ "Crusader" Sub-3.6"
Note that in the SAAMI .458 WM throat, at 3.450" COL the "Mammoth Cave Hollow Point" .458-402g Shock Hammer is jammed into the rifling at end of throat. Seat it one band deeper and it will be good in any SAAMI .458 WM and still too long of COL to fit in the .458 Lott throat unless you trim the Lott brass shorter !
A pointier 400-gr Shock Hammer with a smaller diameter hollow point and slightly greater Bullet Overall Length is to be proposed. Something similar to the 400-gr GSC HV but with the patented PDR drive bands of Hammer Bullets, famously tolerant of any COL you like, even jammed into the rifling.
The GSC HV pattern:
2725 fps with 65.0 grains of AA-5744 is a most accurate and meat friendly limit with 250-gr Hornady Monoflex for short-range deer hunting with the .458 WM at 3.340" COL. 69.0 grains gives just over 3000 fps but makes too much burger mixed with bone meal, and doubles the group size.
GSC HV 400-grainer started at 2500 fps has impact velocity near 2200 fps at 150 yards. That will work with a Woodleigh .458-400g PPSN also, similar BC. Expansion of the 400-grainer will not be as "explosive" as that of the 480-grain Woodleigh at same impact velocity. "SD drives expansion."
Sir Jerry, I had the same towhead hairstyle early on as you. It grew out a little for my first-grade portrait in Columbus Mississippi:
I was homeschooled for kindergarten and went straight into first grade a few months before I turned 6. My Irish Twin older brother started school at same time, both of us having been born in same year. Mom needed the rest so was happy to send us both off to first grade together. Older brother was a sissy and cried when Mom let go of his hand getting on the school bus, and I laughed at him. Baby sister cried everyday she got on the bus until after Christmas break of her first grade ! It is better to laugh than to cry.
Pop used to line up his 3 boys and run the clippers over our heads monthly. By the time I was in third grade he learned to do a flat top on me. The other two got a bowl-on-the-head style with bangs hanging over their foreheads. Being the middle son, I felt special, 'cause Pop had a flat top too. I think my hair stood up better than on the other two brothers, and I have better hair to this day than either of them, even if it is white now.
That load measured spot on 2150fps 3m from my chronograph. I thought it might have touched 2200fps but I was very happy with 2150fps. It sure as heck must've opened up and I tell you, we lost some good meat which kinda sucked... but boy o boy, it sure dropped the deer!
Russ
Sir Russ, Apologies for a mistake I made in looking at the Woodleigh manual, mixing up the 480-gr FMJ load for your 480-gr RNSN load. Your charge of 74.0 grains of AR2206H (aka H4895 Extreme) is one grain below the 75.0 grains shown as a maximum for the RNS 480-grainer. Their velocity maximum was 2190 fps MV for assumed 24"-barreled .458 WM. How careless of me. I'll try not to let it happen again.
Latest RIFLE magazine, September 2021, Brian Pearce has an article entitled "The Reinvented .45-70 Government." Pages 8-12. His Marlin 1895 of 1972 vintage famously did a lot of work for him in Zimbabwe. 400-405 grainers were loaded at 1800 to 2000 fps. "On a large Cape buffalo, 400-grain solids easily penetrated both shoulders and were very effective."
Hey ! The .458 Winchester Magnum can do that too !
Me too. Hammer Bullets are as precisely manufactured as you will find. I will start corresponding with them about making a 400-grainer of higher BC than the current .458-402g Shock Hammer. 2500 fps in the .458 WM Sub-3.4" 2600 fps in the .458 WM+ "Crusader" Sub-3.6"
Note that in the SAAMI .458 WM throat, at 3.450" COL the "Mammoth Cave Hollow Point" .458-402g Shock Hammer is jammed into the rifling at end of throat. Seat it one band deeper and it will be good in any SAAMI .458 WM and still too long of COL to fit in the .458 Lott throat unless you trim the Lott brass shorter !
A pointier 400-gr Shock Hammer with a smaller diameter hollow point and slightly greater Bullet Overall Length is to be proposed. Something similar to the 400-gr GSC HV but with the patented PDR drive bands of Hammer Bullets, famously tolerant of any COL you like, even jammed into the rifling.
The GSC HV pattern:
2725 fps with 65.0 grains of AA-5744 is a most accurate and meat friendly limit with 250-gr Hornady Monoflex for short-range deer hunting with the .458 WM at 3.340" COL. 69.0 grains gives just over 3000 fps but makes too much burger mixed with bone meal, and doubles the group size.
Awesome info buddy. I need to break out the 250 Monoflexes again. I’ve got a pile of them devils.
I’ve never had any extra meat damage shooting my flat nose cast bullets at 1700ish in deer including both shoulder pass through. I did shoot a small doe bursting out of a thicket right in the front at close range and the exit in the rear flank had a good portion of her stomach out the hole. Strangely enough no mess inside behind the diaphragm at all. It appeared that the bullet sucked the insides out as it exited. The Great and Mighty 458 Wm is a terrific deer rifle even here in the Home on the Range state.
Sir Jerry, I had the same towhead hairstyle early on as you. It grew out a little for my first-grade portrait in Columbus Mississippi:
I was homeschooled for kindergarten and went straight into first grade a few months before I turned 6. My Irish Twin older brother started school at same time, both of us having been born in same year. Mom needed the rest so was happy to send us both off to first grade together. Older brother was a sissy and cried when Mom let go of his hand getting on the school bus, and I laughed at him. Baby sister cried everyday she got on the bus until after Christmas break of her first grade ! It is better to laugh than to cry.
Pop used to line up his 3 boys and run the clippers over our heads monthly. By the time I was in third grade he learned to do a flat top on me. The other two got a bowl-on-the-head style with bangs hanging over their foreheads. Being the middle son, I felt special, 'cause Pop had a flat top too. I think my hair stood up better than on the other two brothers, and I have better hair to this day than either of them, even if it is white now.
LOL, funny stuff Sir Ron, middle boy, uh-huh, then you were [may still be] the peace maker, i was first outta the chute, protector ; ] think i may have got my head stuck in the fence, have about a thousand cowlicks, Mom may have got tired of fooling with it and did the peel.
Thanks Sir John, yes, wonderful memories, lying prone in wet leaves firing your first scoped rifle [heavy Rem 700 in 6mm or 243, circa 1968] at paper pennzoil cans from a green duffel used as a rest never leave you either, i remember looking up and around at Dad, Uncs and even Gramps stiff arm leaning against a big oak tree in the yard smoking his pipe watching too, near 55 years, POOF! gone, damn.
Sir Ron: if I may - why does "buy a donkey = thank you" in your jargon? If I missed an earlier post on the subject I apologize...I'm a bit late to the party, but do have 5 .458WMs!
"Baie dankie" is Afrikaans language for "thank you very much." The Afrikaans pronunciation sounds just like "buy a donkey" in English.
If you have 5 rifles chambered for .458 Winchester Magnum you are almost as crazy as me, and certainly deserve to be called "Sir Ken" if you want it.
Crazy is good. Makes the world go round. Some person considered this old bullet to be a good deer bullet at 2900 fps from a .460 Wby:
Ignore the CH4D Canntool cannelure above. The original bullet was slick-sided, with no cannelures. This does suggest how simple a good .458-400-gr bullet can be, and still get the job done, even at velocities of less than 2900 fps MV.
"Some person considered this old bullet to be a good deer bullet at 2900 fps from a .460 Wby" This does suggest how simple a good .458-400-gr bullet can be, and still get the job done, even at velocities of less than 2900 fps MV.
I plead guilty as insinuated........ 116gn of IMR 4064 or Varget or AR 2208 will get you to 2900fps with the perfectly adequate for anything that breathes, 400 grain bullet.
Look at it this way, if the world thinks that a 300 Magnum generating 2900fps with a 200 grain bullet is pretty hot stuff and a great medium to heavy game load then I would submit with qualification, that a 400 grain bullet such as the aforementioned Barnes X at like velocity would demonstrate adequacy to the extreme.
Sir Woods has kindly forwarded some nice JPEG-file evidence of the accuracy of the 460 Wby Mag with 500-grain Hornady bullets as well as the old Barnes 400-gr X-Bullet. Of course, the handloader behind the trigger of such a deer rifle has a lot to do with group size also. He will have to comment on the rifle which I believe to have been a Weatherby factory Mark V, also known to be accurate in the 460 Weatherby chambering.
For starters, here is the factory target sent with my 1984-vintage Mk V Deluxe. It was supposed to be for 3 shots at 100 yards but shows only two holes about 0.88" apart on centers of the holes, supposedly done with 500-gr factory ammo that was claimed to have an MV of 2700 fps way back when. I cannot tell which hole was supposed to have had 2 bullets pass through it:
Sir Woods' bet-winning load for suckers at the public range who have never seen a 460 Wby Mag: 115 grains of IMR-4350 and the old 500-gr RNSN Hornady:
This might show relative POI of a milder 400-gr X-Bullet load at 2730fps versus the 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN at 2500 fps at 100 yards, same POA ?:
Scope removed and replaced after each shot with what load, scope, and mounts ?:
400-gr X-bullet, 5 shots at 100 yards, is it that 2900 fps load ?:
500-gr Hornady at 2445 fps, 4 holes or 5 at 100 yards ? 0.665" group:
So the 460 Weatherby Magnum throat is not an accuracy impediment, just not as handy with .461"-diameter cast bullets as the .458 Winchester Magnum, but there are certainly no flies on it for .458"-diameter monometal copper:
Practical rifle aspects: 30-yard point-blank range advantage of the 460 Weatherby (2900 fps) over the .458 Winchester Magnum Plus (2600 fps): .458 WM+ 40-yard point-blank range advantage of the 460 Weatherby (2900 fps) over the .458 Winchester Magnum (2500 fps): .458 WM SAAMI with 400-gr GSC HV having BC = 0.372. Zero for 2900 fps is 250 yards. Zero for 2600 fps is 225 yards. Zero for 2500 fps is 215 yards. Muzzle-KE/ 300-yard KE: 7469 ft-lbs/ 4274 ft-lbs 6004 ft-lbs/ 3344 ft-lbs 5551 ft-lbs/ 3060 ft-lbs respectively. All are quite adequate for deer to 300 yards.
Less recoil, lighter rifle, greater magazine capacity with .458 Winchester Magnum: Better deer rifle.
But hey ! How about a .458 Winchester Magnum Weatherby Throated (460 Winchester Magnum) as a specialized rifle for monometal copper ?
Sir Ron, you guys are still getting it on! good deal, my 458 WM+ is like lunchmeat, "ALWAYS READY!" am now squaring a load work up with my 44-77 Sharps Bottleneck [near 461 Gibbs twin] to use this season, cast one hundred 480gr paper patch bullets this morning to go with the last paper patches Saint Bagwell ever cut, his last copper penny front sight will also guide those bullets home to the meat that will fill the freezers.
It's going to be a great season Gentlemen, let us not tarry, it's approaching fast!
Just to follow up on Ron's notes above, all groups shown were at 100 yards using a Weatherby Mark V rifle which was bedded by Mike McGuire, the OP.
There was a lot of talk about bedding compounds back in those days relating to shrinkage, but after close to 30 years, I never saw it, which is why I re-shot so many groups with known loads over those years. I also bedded a rifle back in 1993 using Devcon Steel as was the .460 and even now with nearly 3000 rounds down the barrel, it is still a very much under MOA rifle that continues to amaze me with consistency and utter reliability.
Mike was a huge mentor for me and with the exception of one stock, I bedded every bolt action rifle through my hands since, including many others totaling into the 3 figures with more than 50 bedding jobs during a single year within that period. It provided a lot of references and experience to look back on. When it comes to generating and maintaining accuracy, I am a big believer in Devcon and have used both the Steel and Aluminium compounds with equal results both on walnut and synthetic stocks.
As to the .458 caliber, It worked very well for both me and a mate who carried a BRNO Model 602 in .458 and I the .460, when we culled on over a million plus acre spread in the cape country on northern Queensland just before I immigrated to the US. The largest game hunted was brumbies and scrub bulls, both born wild and beyond feral in that remote country. The pigs we took were the most savage and aggressive I have ever seen, as there wasn't much in the way of natural fauna way up there and aggression shown when securing ownership over carcasses we provided was quite surprising. The largest tusks I took on that trip were a pair 7 1/2" long. Impressive considering the corresponding sharpeners were still in place on top. It too, was taken with a running shot as it ran across the bush track we were walking along. I was again carrying the .460 and 500gn Hornady loads I was still shooting off.
Now something needs to be said here........ I always cringe whenever I hear of or read any articles on the .460 because the writers simply do not know anything, have no familiarity with the cartridge, do not load it to potential for the tests and generally fail to provide anything in the way of valuable information to prospective buyers.
My determinations after using 17 powders and 11 bullets in the .460 is that the 400 grain Barnes X bullet is the most practical, accurate and suitable hunting bullet tested and including the .458 Winchester cartridge, is an unbelievable shame not to be available at this time. Nothing continues in manufacturing without sales. I get that. Promotion is not qualified with articulate verbiage and colorful pics, it is qualified by usage and reporting findings which has been incredibly lacking considering the .460 is older than most readers.
The 400 grain Barnes X is also a wonderful option for the .458 Winchester and I still have a few loaded for the right usage. I would be comfortable using that bullet for anything with teeth and claws regardless of weight and demeanor, When I lived in the Rockies, there were pine trees growing off to the side behind my range. Even though bench to trees was around 200 yards, those Barnes X 400 grainers loaded around 2450fps would penetrate trunks 18-24" thick. That impressed me. Best I learned on game was that it will take around 5 feet of muscle and bone to stop one. That too, impressed me.
Maybe a flood of emails to Barnes from all over the world requesting its reintroduction, this time as a TSX bullet would have enough impact to impress all of us?
As an Addendum, I just emailed Barnes requesting the re-release of the 400gn TSX as provided to Buffalo Bore Ammunition to the handloading public. Their email is [email protected]
... my 458 WM+ is like lunchmeat, "ALWAYS READY!" am now squaring a load work up with my 44-77 Sharps Bottleneck ...
Good one, Sir Jerry. I will steal that line. Squaring a BPCR away is always approved, especially the .44-77 SBN Creedmoor Darling and Buffalo Hunter which, as you say, is so like the .461 Gibbs cartridges used in Sir Saint Metford's rifling, and, in your case, paper-patched with Sir Saint Bagwell's handiwork. That should Bagwell indeed. We all know you like the Big Fifties too, and that is OK as target training for use of your .458 WM+.
In 1865-1866 the British NRA were having 1000, 1100, and 2000-yard muzzleloader contests, firing at a 24-ft X 12-ft target at 2000 yards. That would look like a 14.4-in X 7.2-in target at 100 yards. A scope-sighted .500-caliber rifle that weighed 15 pounds and fired 150 grains of black powder behind a 700-grain bullet was fired by William Ellis Metford in 1865 and was the only rifle to hit the 2000-yard target. He made a similar rifle for Sir Henry Halford in 1866. Those two rifles were the only ones to score at 2000 yards in 1865 and1866 competitions. THE TIMES OF LONDON on 15 June 1865 said: "The weapon with which the prize was won, will, it is said, create some stir among those interested in small-bore and long-range shooting, being on entirely new principles." (MUZZLEBLASTS, August 2021, pg. 12, by Fred Stutzenberger)
And then came the scope-sighted .458 WM+. Practice with the 700-gr "Hellbender" loads in your Sharps shooters: 150-gr of BP or what ?
Just to follow up on Ron's notes above, all groups shown were at 100 yards using a Weatherby Mark V rifle which was bedded by Mike McGuire, the OP.
A toast to Sir Mike's good health !
There was a lot of talk about bedding compounds back in those days relating to shrinkage, but after close to 30 years, I never saw it, which is why I re-shot so many groups with known loads over those years. I also bedded a rifle back in 1993 using Devcon Steel as was the .460 and even now with nearly 3000 rounds down the barrel, it is still a very much under MOA rifle that continues to amaze me with consistency and utter reliability.
Marine-Tex is preferred by my local smith. My personal favorite is J-B Weld 8280 Original Steel Reinforced Epoxy Professional Size 10-oz. package: 2 tubes of 5-oz. each tube.
Mike was a huge mentor for me and with the exception of one stock, I bedded every bolt action rifle through my hands since, including many others totaling into the 3 figures with more than 50 bedding jobs during a single year within that period. It provided a lot of references and experience to look back on. When it comes to generating and maintaining accuracy, I am a big believer in Devcon and have used both the Steel and Aluminium compounds with equal results both on walnut and synthetic stocks.
My first "custom rifle" was a .375 WbyMag done by rechambering a Whitworth Mk X Mauser .375 H&H. Willis Fowler in Anchorage , AK 1986-1987 was the gunsmith and said he was allergic to epoxy, so I bedded it myself in a Brown Precision fiberglass blank using Acraglas from Brownells. It's been a learning experience ever since.
As to the .458 caliber, It worked very well for both me and a mate who carried a BRNO Model 602 in .458 and I the .460, when we culled on over a million plus acre spread in the cape country on northern Queensland just before I immigrated to the US.
Well, at least you had nearly 2 decades here before it went to hell, though the Aussies sure had some problems like the gun grab and etc.
The largest game hunted was brumbies and scrub bulls, both born wild and beyond feral in that remote country. The pigs we took were the most savage and aggressive I have ever seen, as there wasn't much in the way of natural fauna way up there and aggression shown when securing ownership over carcasses we provided was quite surprising. The largest tusks I took on that trip were a pair 7 1/2" long. Impressive considering the corresponding sharpeners were still in place on top. It too, was taken with a running shot as it ran across the bush track we were walking along. I was again carrying the .460 and 500gn Hornady loads I was still shooting off.
Rolled that piggy quite well, I am sure.
Now something needs to be said here........ I always cringe whenever I hear of or read any articles on the .460 because the writers simply do not know anything, have no familiarity with the cartridge, do not load it to potential for the tests and generally fail to provide anything in the way of valuable information to prospective buyers.
DITTO THE .458 WIN MAG ! More's the pity in that the .458 WIN MAG is 2 years older than the 460 WBY MAG and so much more widely USED AND ABUSED AND LIED ABOUT.
My determinations after using 17 powders and 11 bullets in the .460 is that the 400 grain Barnes X bullet is the most practical, accurate and suitable hunting bullet tested and including the .458 Winchester cartridge, is an unbelievable shame not to be available at this time. Nothing continues in manufacturing without sales. I get that. Promotion is not qualified with articulate verbiage and colorful pics, it is qualified by usage and reporting findings which has been incredibly lacking considering the .460 is older than most readers.
The level of ignorance amazes. In the case of the .458 WIN MAG it is more dishonesty and commercial jockeying to sell other rifles.
The 400 grain Barnes X is also a wonderful option for the .458 Winchester and I still have a few loaded for the right usage. I would be comfortable using that bullet for anything with teeth and claws regardless of weight and demeanor, When I lived in the Rockies, there were pine trees growing off to the side behind my range. Even though bench to trees was around 200 yards, those Barnes X 400 grainers loaded around 2450fps would penetrate trunks 18-24" thick. That impressed me. Best I learned on game was that it will take around 5 feet of muscle and bone to stop one. That too, impressed me.
This makes it obvious that a .458-400gr FN monometal solid of brass, bronze or copper would be adequate for blue whale if driven fast enough. Even a brass FN expands at 2800 fps, so the 460 WBY MAG might be better if not pushed to 2900 fps with the solid.
Maybe a flood of emails to Barnes from all over the world requesting its reintroduction, this time as a TSX bullet would have enough impact to impress all of us?
I emailed and telephoned over a year ago. Since then Remington Bankruptcy and sale of Barnes to Sierra may offer hope. Will Barnes Bullets be made in Sedalia, MO or remain in Mona, UT ? Buffalo Bore had an exclusive contract to receive the .458-400gr TSX. I got nowhere. I was crying on the anchor baby's website at the time. Maybe from here something more will happen. Knights of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood: Mount up for the campaign.
As an Addendum, I just emailed Barnes requesting the re-release of the 400gn TSX as provided to Buffalo Bore Ammunition to the handloading public. Their email is [email protected]
Change diameters only except keep hollow point diameter at 3mm. Lengths stay the same. Volume increase by factor of 1.492 = copper weight increases to 403 grains. If so, shave 3 grains of copper off the flat of the boat tail, and it is same length as the GSC HV .458-400g, about 1.430" BOL instead of 1.440". Shaped a lot like a GSC HV with PDR bands. Gotta be good.
David Ommanney, PH, "our man in Africa." Ommanney rhymes with "hominy."
The first of the Big Five killed in Africa, with the "New Model 70" of 1964, was a cape buffalo. Quite obviously it was with one of those new-fangled .458 Winchester Magnum rifles with 22" barrel. Narration did not even mention the "old" .458 WM cartridge, despite mention of the newer .264 WM and .300 WM chamberings used. The .458 WM did not need a sales pitch. All in all a fine battery of rifles.
... my 458 WM+ is like lunchmeat, "ALWAYS READY!" am now squaring a load work up with my 44-77 Sharps Bottleneck ...
Good one, Sir Jerry. I will steal that line. Squaring a BPCR away is always approved, especially the .44-77 SBN Creedmoor Darling and Buffalo Hunter which, as you say, is so like the .461 Gibbs cartridges used in Sir Saint Metford's rifling, and, in your case, paper-patched with Sir Saint Bagwell's handiwork. That should Bagwell indeed. We all know you like the Big Fifties too, and that is OK as target training for use of your .458 WM+.
In 1865-1866 the British NRA were having 1000, 1100, and 2000-yard muzzleloader contests, firing at a 24-ft X 12-ft target at 2000 yards. That would look like a 14.4-in X 7.2-in target at 100 yards. A scope-sighted .500-caliber rifle that weighed 15 pounds and fired 150 grains of black powder behind a 700-grain bullet was fired by William Ellis Metford in 1865 and was the only rifle to hit the 2000-yard target. He made a similar rifle for Sir Henry Halford in 1866. Those two rifles were the only ones to score at 2000 yards in 1865 and1866 competitions. THE TIMES OF LONDON on 15 June 1865 said: "The weapon with which the prize was won, will, it is said, create some stir among those interested in small-bore and long-range shooting, being on entirely new principles." (MUZZLEBLASTS, August 2021, pg. 12, by Fred Stutzenberger)
And then came the scope-sighted .458 WM+. Practice with the 700-gr "Hellbender" loads in your Sharps shooters: 150-gr of BP or what ?
The line is yours Sir Ron; ] great history lesson on the rifles and what the ODG's did with them, always very interesting/informative, my biggest "Hellbender" 50-90 Sharps was with 777 grains of lead and 130gr Swiss FG, quiet enough, that rifle weighs 15 pounds too, hmmmmmm.
... my biggest "Hellbender" 50-90 Sharps was with 777 grains of lead and 130gr Swiss FG, quiet enough, that rifle weighs 15 pounds too, hmmmmmm ...
That will work as a trainer for the .458 WM+. If it does not kill you it will make you stronger. By a God wink, I too have a .512"-777gr bullet, from an NEI Handtools mould, an FNGC. It is meant to be used in a 1:20" twist McGowen .510-caliber barrel on a .500 Jeffery that I started about 20 years ago. That is when I found a set of .500 Jeffery dies in a Shop in Rapid City, SD while working for the IHS at Pine Ridge Rez. My local Gunsmith has been having health problems and has a backlog at The Gunshop & Spa for Wayward Rifles. He also has my "Olde Fugly" .458 Lott molestation of a Whitworth .458 WM MkX Mauser, awaiting the M70-style safety I obtained from NECG. There they sit, two rifles with all parts needed.
Two of the screwiest chamberings ever conceived by man are the CIP .500 Jeffery and SAAMI .458 Lott. .500 Jeffery: Rebated rim, short neck, no throat ... at least my reamer has some PSFB throating, done years ago before my .458 WM-throating enlightenment. .458 Lott: At least mine is Like Jack Built, a SAAMI .458 WM chamber reamed for 2.8" brass, with remnant .458 WM throat. But, they are both good trainers for the .458 WM+. The .500 Jeffery to remind how user friendly the .458 WM+ is. The .458 Lott Like Jack Built to duplicate the .458 WM+ and remind how puny the SAAMI .458 Lott is.
Emailed Barnes again yesterday ! Telephone called twice today, and got put on terminal hold first time, tried a different menu option and went to "leave a message" so I hung up. It was no help last year when I waited out the telephone queue anyway.
I also emailed Hammer Bullets yesterday. Got an overnight response today by email from Steve Davis, of Hammer Bullets. He will even call you back immediately if he is on the phone to someone else when you call. About the idea of a special order of a .458 Cal-400g Shock Hammer with a 3 mm hollow point he said: "I think this is certainly doable."
SO IT IS TIME FOR ME TO BITE THE BULLET, THE HAMMER BULLET.
I will get it started and then it will be loaded on the website for future orders. Will bring more info to the Square Table as it happens.
You will find no more precisely machined copper bullet than the Hammer Bullet. This is from the guy that had GSC and CEB create monometal copper bullets of custom .395 caliber, for my five .395-caliber wildcats after buying the tooling for Harry McGowen to produce barrels for my .395-caliber rifles.
Now I have wised up. Sticking with .458-caliber rifles is a lot smarter. Recovery of a .395-caliber bullet at a crime scene would make me the prime suspect. Recovery of a .458-caliber bullet broadens the lineup.
.458-400g Shock Hammers will find many uses, from .45-70 Gov't. to 460 WbyMag. I might even have to get another 460 WbyMag since 400-grainers work so well in that, according to Sir Woods. Training with a 460 WbyMag will surely make one appreciate the .458 WinMag.
Meantime I need to try another 400-grainer shootoff (for accuracy) using a .458 WinMag rifle without a loose and bent screw, to try the .458-400gr XTSX Bubba Bullet against all comers. Barnes hammer-forms the 500-grainer out of copper wire, then Bubba shortens them to 400-grainers using handtools. That is a different kind of hammer bullet.
Sir Ron, I see Hammer Bullets has a .458 402 gr Shock Hammer bullet with a 1/4" (~6.4 mm) hollow point. I don't see a length though.
As close as I can measure tonight with a dial caliper and eyeball: Barnes 458 500 gr TSX FB has a hollow point of about 3.7mm Barnes 458 450 gr TSX FB has a hollow point of about 3.2mm
I was wondering what you saw as the terminal ballistics advantage (or other advantages) of the 3mm hollow point over the 1/4" Hammer bullets already offers. Shorter bullet for same weight? Or are there other differences?
As I previously bragged about that .458 Cal-402g Shock Hammer regarding precision machining:
First 10 bullets out of the first box: weight average = 402.7 grains all within +/- 0.2 grains spread length average (not counting the tiny parting pimple on base which is of no consequence) = 1.3295" all within a spread of +/- 0.0005" HP diameter 0.249" to 0.250" and depth about 0.385".
The 402-gr Shock Hammer loaded to 3.450" COL is jammed into the rifling of the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat, solid contact, hard bolt closing. It has a G1-BC estimated at 0.248. It would be great in a no-throat, seated deep. In a .458 Lott it would have to be seated to less than 3.450" COL. Maybe 3.340" COL would be good in a .458 Lott. Hilarious.
The .458 Cal-400g that I am proposing will have a higher BC and is capable of longer COL for 3.30" to 3.60" loadings for both the SAAMI .458 WM and the .458 WM+ "wildcattish." In fact it will be a lot like the unobtainable 400-gr GSC HV which had a G1-BC of 0.372 at 2500 fps but with the PDR drive bands that are slicker and that I like better for other reasons too, besides BC possibility. Depth of the 3mm HP will be per expertise of Steve and Brian at Hammer Bullets, Made in the USA, Kalispell, Montana. Some of the smaller-caliber Hammer Bullets have 1.5mm HP diameters. 3mm is good, on a 400-gr .458 I reckon. Steve seems to think so too.
The maximum COL possible with the 402-gr Shock Hammer bullet in the SAAMI .458 Lott: 3.292" COL will be jamming it into the rifling. Yes, the distance from breech face to start of rifling at 0.458" diameter is 3.0143" for the SAAMI .458 Lott.
For the SAAMI ,458 WinMag the same distance from breech face to start of rifling at .458" diameter is 3.1725", With the .458 WinMag, that bullet at 3.450" COL is jamming it into the rifling. Short ogive on the bullet, nose, long shank of .458 major diameter.
Also note that the .458-"400-gr" XTSX will henceforth become a 402-grainer. That happens when Bubba merely cuts off a 500-gr TSX at the base for 1.400" bullet length. No hollow point mods to fine tune the weight. One might say that it is the ".458-402g Hammered By Bubba Bullet" as opposed to the .458-402g Shock Hammer Bullet by Hammer Bullets.
Barnes makes those TSX bullets by hammer-forging from copper wire, then cutting the grooves with cutting wheels much like a bank of Dremel Tools. Tolerances for length and weight on the Hammered By Bubba bullet should be same as those on the Hammered By Barnes TSX. Not quite as precise as the CNC-turned Shock Hammers.
May I assume that if I remove 0.115" from the base of the 450 TSX (making it 1.40") that the weight will be about the same as a 500 TSX reduced to 1.40"? Since I don't have any 500TSX's, I'm wondering if the profile of the 450 is the same as a 500 to 1.40"... and depth of cavity? I could always do one to find out but don't want to fiddle with several 450s to find out!
While the 450 TSX is a fine bullet, yet I'd have more use for a 400 - 402gr. TSX.
Thanks for your work, and thanks in advance if you could determine an answer to my question without too much trouble.
Sir Bob, If one can bear to sacrifice a 450-gr TSX it might make a better 400-gr XTSX. I enjoy chopping the 500-gr TSX only because it might be too long for stability in game, even though it is superbly accurate on paper from a .458 WM+ at 2250 fps MV (0.19 MOA for 3 shots) and goes only a little over 1 MOA at 2342 fps MV from a skinny CZ barrel of 1:14" twist. Loaded to 3.78" COL for those shots, it will not even fit into a SAAMI .458 Lott chamber, as you recall, and I like to repeat.
Just try to start with a batch of bullets that belong to the same lot of manufacture.
Sir Woods has forwarded this excellent JPEG from his batches of TSX bullets:
Here are the technical details from Bubba Bullets:
Typo below: 402.0" was supposed to be "402.0 grains" Shortening a 1.405", 404-gr bullet to 1.400" resulted in 402 grains of bullet weight, a rough guide: Minus 0.005" of full diameter bullet base length = minus 2.0 grains of bullet weight. That works for a 400-gr XTSX whether made from either 500-grain TSX or 450-grain TSX.
Bubba has finally found a good use for .458 Lott brass and a .458 Lott Lee Factory Crimp die. Seat the XTSX bullet upside-down in the .458 Lott case. Crimp it in place for a solid grip on the bullet. This makes a good handle for the bullet when using the thimble-type chamfering tool to break the sharp edge on the base of the bullet. Pop the bullet out of the handle with a kinetic puller when finished.
Also by crimping the bullet in the Lee FC die at a useful length, the base of the bullet projects above die enough to allow it to be used as a file-trim die. Use washers over the top of the Lee Factory Crimper with base of bullet projecting above the washer. You can use a finer file or stone to finish off the base of the bullet if beautification is desired. Similar tools can be used to shorten the nose of the bullet to turn a 500-grainer into a 480-grainer, as previously perfected by Bubba Bullets & Brass Metamorphosis Technologies Ltd., very limited.
So, Bubba recommends these best uses for 500-gr Barnes TSX bullets: 1. Unmolested TSX: Paper targets and gongs at long range. 2. TSX molested at base only for 400-gr XTSX: Any big game or varmint. 3. TSX molested at nose only for 480-gr XTSX: Any big game or varmint.
Would every cartridge be better according to you if there were another version for each with an extended throat?
For example a 30-06 vs a 30-06 extended throater.Wouldn't you keep your 30-06?
Apprentice Squire Swiftshot (ASS), Are you looking to be demoted to Lottite ? Lottite is synonymous with knave, rascal, scoundrel, and hornswoggler. Just kidding. No question is a stupid question for it is a chance for education. You did pick a poor example to improve with a longer throat, however, demonstrating your need for education.
The SAAMI .30-06 Springfield already has a wide-based, leade-only throat with no Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore (PSFB). The leade is 0.3106" minimum diameter at base with leade hemi-angle of 1*22'00". It is already a Mini-Me version of the throat of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. The .30-06 was my first bolt action rifle, a circa 1980 Ruger M77 Roundtop. I still have it, though restocked in Brown Precision fiberglass, and it still shoots bugholes.
Other famous wide-based, lead-only-throated cartridges performing beyond the expectations of the average Lottite include the 9.3 x 62mm Mauser (1905), the 10.75 x 68mm Mauser (1911), and the .425 Westley Richards (1909).
The .425 WR was the first "Short Magnum" with a COL of 3.275". Had the rim not been rebated and the rifle barrels not 28" long on the originals, it would have succeeded, due to the power derived from the throat. Probably clues to Winchester engineering there.
Before becoming a devotee of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat I was a fan of the .375 Weatherby Magnum throat revamp circa 2001 by Weatherby and later CIP.. I have patterned many of my wildcat throats after that throat: About caliber-length PSFB of diameter less than .001" greater than bullet diameter and a 1* to 1.5* leade. The CIP 460 WbyMag throat is longer than 1.5-times-caliber and works wonders. The circa 1945 .375 WbyMag throat was about 2-times-caliber length and gave poorer performance (lower MV, less accurate) with same loads that were outstanding in the 2001 version of the .375 WbyMag throat.
But for overall flexibility and versatility nothing beats the .458 WinMag throat, not requiring nose-sizing for cast bullets, pressure let-off, good accuracy possible with all bullets and COLs, etc.
Part of the decision about what is to be gained by lengthening the throat is related to the length of COL allowed by the rifle and bullets available, of course.
Swiftshot, There is actually a terrific amount of information on this website relating to throats differing from either spec's or through design. Some older cartridges have what amounts to inherent variation because of their age or longevity, where different manufacturers and actions were producing variance between themselves over literally decades compounded by the tyranny of distance between Europe and the America's, such as for the 7x57, 6.5x55 and the aforementioned 9.3x62.
There are members here that have modified standard cartridges such as the 7mm Remington by extending the throats to allow seating heavier bullets to the base of the neck which also had the effect of closing the gap between the Remington and the Weatherby versions where case capacity was similar, though neck length and throat differed in the factory specs. The same variations were also mentioned by several who adopted the .300 Winchester necked to 7mm to again take advantage of the action length, magazine box and extended throat to maximize velocity potential. Again, larger powder consumption by reducing bullet encroachment opens the door to more powder choices.
The short answer is that you can extend the throat of just about any cartridge if you have the want, disposable income and a willing gunsmith, so ultimately, the chronograph is the arbiter but the judgement relating to any benefit or value, remains with the rifleman.
Most here are experienced enough to have realized that 100fps here and there doesn't matter much in the field, but there can be other gains such as utilizing powders you want to explore or consume and a slightly larger powder column could assist that. The .458 Winchester is a little different because the throat is already existing and utilizing the magazine OAL potential firstly challenges any argument for the SAAMI Lott version and offers a solid 200fps plus over .458 Winchester spec's. Even the current Barnes 450gn Vortex factory cartridges which zip over my Oehler 35P at around 2166fps can be improved by that 200fps+ margin with several powders so by extending the OAL to the potential of the same magazine box in a Model 70, there is capability to increase the impact energy on dangerous game or make shooting a little longer that much easier on big game and even medium game if you are inclined.
Even the current Barnes 450gn Vortex factory cartridges which zip over my Oehler 35P at around 2166fps can be improved by that 200fps+ margin with several powders so by extending the OAL to the potential of the same magazine box in a Model 70, there is capability to increase the impact energy on dangerous game or make shooting a little longer that much easier on big game and even medium game if you are inclined.
Amen to Sir Woods ! What the SAAMI .458 WinMag can do with 450-grainers, the .458 WIN+ can do with 500-grainers like Sir Jerry loads. That is overkill, but hey, Sir Jerry is a big, strapping boy and handles those 500-grainers at +2350 fps quite well. Ditto the 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps. Having started shooting at 5 y.o. he has grown into it.
I only had to fire 5 shots with the CEB 450-grain Safari Solid (brass FN) to be done with it. I used Chimera WinCZechster with a 24-7/8" CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action, in a Tupperware stock, with a Nikon SlugHunter scope.
Barely a .458 WIN+ load, exceeding SAAMI COL by 0.020".
The rifle had been previously zeroed with the Hornady 500-gr DGX and DGS factory loads striking 1" high at 50 yards. The 450-gr CEB handload happily printed very close to those with no scope adjustment required. Same scope settings for all 5 shots from fouling to finish. More accurate shooting can surely be done with this load if bullets are available for the shooting. Note sandbag keeping the tripod from tipping over with wind gusts over 20 mph:
This will serve notice to Sir Jerry that I can now handle even the HEIC "Live" files converting them to PNG files that will post here just like JPEG files:
... my biggest "Hellbender" 50-90 Sharps was with 777 grains of lead and 130gr Swiss FG, quiet enough, that rifle weighs 15 pounds too, hmmmmmm ...
That will work as a trainer for the .458 WM+. If it does not kill you it will make you stronger. By a God wink, I too have a .512"-777gr bullet, from an NEI Handtools mould, an FNGC. It is meant to be used in a 1:20" twist McGowen .510-caliber barrel on a .500 Jeffery that I started about 20 years ago. That is when I found a set of .500 Jeffery dies in a Shop in Rapid City, SD while working for the IHS at Pine Ridge Rez. My local Gunsmith has been having health problems and has a backlog at The Gunshop & Spa for Wayward Rifles. He also has my "Olde Fugly" .458 Lott molestation of a Whitworth .458 WM MkX Mauser, awaiting the M70-style safety I obtained from NECG. There they sit, two rifles with all parts needed.
Two of the screwiest chamberings ever conceived by man are the CIP .500 Jeffery and SAAMI .458 Lott. .500 Jeffery: Rebated rim, short neck, no throat ... at least my reamer has some PSFB throating, done years ago before my .458 WM-throating enlightenment. .458 Lott: At least mine is Like Jack Built, a SAAMI .458 WM chamber reamed for 2.8" brass, with remnant .458 WM throat. But, they are both good trainers for the .458 WM+. The .500 Jeffery to remind how user friendly the .458 WM+ is. The .458 Lott Like Jack Built to duplicate the .458 WM+ and remind how puny the SAAMI .458 Lott is.
LOL, yes Sir......Sir Ron, the 500 jeff has always been a head scratcher for me, dangerous game cartridge in a bot action rifle, could they not invent anything more apt for feeding failure? The Lott should have been as Jack designed his own rifle, leave anything to a corp and it'll get chit-canned screwed, if for nothing else, in the name of profit.
Cool deal on the .512" 777's, they have an amazing presence when you turn one loose ; ]
This will serve notice to Sir Jerry that I can now handle even the HEIC "Live" files converting them to PNG files that will post here just like JPEG files:
"A Boy and His Gun"
Sweet! near 55 years between those two pics, Thanks Sir Ron, sorry i couldn't be of more resistance on my end of the iPhone 12 delivery system.
Here are the technical details from Bubba Bullets:
Typo below: 402.0" was supposed to be "402.0 grains" Shortening a 1.405", 404-gr bullet to 1.400" resulted in 402 grains of bullet weight, a rough guide: Minus 0.005" of full diameter bullet base length = minus 2.0 grains of bullet weight. That works for a 400-gr XTSX whether made from either 500-grain TSX or 450-grain TSX.
Many, many thanks Sir Ron for all of this, with the photos!
My office is now overcrowded with too much stuff but the holes are still there in the corner of a desk where once there was a bench vise. Will have to get another.
In the meanwhile I've settled on the 405 Rem and 400 Buster for relatively close in bear hunting at around 2100 fps, the 350 TSX at 2750 fps for longer range deer/wolf and the 480 DGX if I ever hunt moose again. The beauty of a 400 TSX would cover all bases!
Most have read the heavy promotion here for a Barnes 400gn (TSX) bullet which for once, is based on first hand experiences and observations.
I would ask anyone with first hand experience that can be reported in details as to rifle, load, game and circumstances/range etc where a negative experience occurred using this bullet. Those that never had this experience would welcome a counter argument.
This being the "innernet", its not possible to not have dissenters is it?
Edited: let me justify this question........ It is very common to find opinions on bullets, with Sectional Density being tossed around in the argument favoring one bullet over another. This level of interest in a 400gn bullet where existing bullets go up another 200 grain in weight for caliber also stretches SD's from .272 to.409 which is a staggering range for a single caliber.
Where general hunting bullets are concerned, Gary Sitton once wrote that he felt a SD or around .240 was a good baseline. I used to agree with that until I proved it wrong by killing animals with sectional densities as low as .151 and at some very long ranges requiring Kentucky windage. But that was a world where cup and core bullets were the most common for all game including large and dangerous game. In today's world, the reality is, that Sectional Density was originally used as a reference point where non expanding full metal case bullets were used for dangerous game. The theory being, that non expanding bullets retained that SD during penetration which is why the discussions were had where bullet riveting occurred as it firstly, interfered with penetration and secondly, changed the SD after it occurred (technically at least as it could never be measured after deforming).
What this means is that a theorist commonly argued that the higher the SD the more superior the penetration which is not true. I have gained 5 plus feet penetration with the 400gn Barnes X bullet and less than a foot with a 500gn Hornady on the same sized game. How can a SD of .272 out penetrate a SD of .341?
Bullet construction always was the answer. It also answered the problem of 500 grain FMJ's riveting inside elephant and reducing penetration or deviating straight line penetration or both. Homogeneous bullet design is unlikely to be improved upon in a rifle projectile for penetration. An expanding version only make sense where penetration assists a quick kill or the anchoring of larger game quickly.
Most have read the heavy promotion here for a Barnes 400gn (TSX) bullet which for once, is based on first hand experiences and observations.
I would ask anyone with first hand experience that can be reported in details as to rifle, load, game and circumstances/range etc where a negative experience occurred using this bullet. Those that never had this experience would welcome a counter argument.
This being the "innernet", its not possible to not have dissenters is it?
Edited: let me justify this question........ It is very common to find opinions on bullets, with Sectional Density being tossed around in the argument favoring one bullet over another. This level of interest in a 400gn bullet where existing bullets go up another 200 grain in weight for caliber also stretches SD's from .272 to.409 which is a staggering range for a single caliber.
Where general hunting bullets are concerned, Gary Sitton once wrote that he felt a SD or around .240 was a good baseline. I used to agree with that until I proved it wrong by killing animals with sectional densities as low as .151 and at some very long ranges requiring Kentucky windage. But that was a world where cup and core bullets were the most common for all game including large and dangerous game. In today's world, the reality is, that Sectional Density was originally used as a reference point where non expanding full metal case bullets were used for dangerous game. The theory being, that non expanding bullets retained that SD during penetration which is why the discussions were had where bullet riveting occurred as it firstly, interfered with penetration and secondly, changed the SD after it occurred (technically at least as it could never be measured after deforming).
What this means is that a theorist commonly argued that the higher the SD the more superior the penetration which is not true. I have gained 5 plus feet penetration with the 400gn Barnes X bullet and less than a foot with a 500gn Hornady on the same sized game. How can a SD of .272 out penetrate a SD of .341?
Bullet construction always was the answer. It also answered the problem of 500 grain FMJ's riveting inside elephant and reducing penetration or deviating straight line penetration or both. Homogeneous bullet design is unlikely to be improved upon in a rifle projectile for penetration. An expanding version only make sense where penetration assists a quick kill or the anchoring of larger game quickly.
But let's not compare apples with rocks here...
I've tested a lot of .458" bullets in various media: How can a 330gr Barnes solid (no longer offered) pass completely through 15.5 inches of very tough media and was lost in the hillside beyond while a 500gr Speer GS only made it through 6.5 inches? Construction! The GS blew the nose off retaining less weight at 310grns than the 330gr solid with a flat tip! Plus - the 330 never deformed (according to the witness of the last plank it passed through) while the 500 GS had a "nice mushroom" doing more immediate damage than the 330!
So, if we're going to compare bullets, let's do so with those of the same style and construction and see whether the 500 Barnes brass solid with the flat tip will out-penetrate that 330! I retain NO doubts that it will! I believe it's been proven that a heavier flat-tip solid will penetrate more than a like constructed lighter solid if both are given the same psi starting out! The lighter bullet will be leaving the muzzle faster but slow more quickly also. A 500gr from a .458 at, say, 2300 fps (about max from my Ruger #1 in .458) carries more momentum than a 350gr at 2750 (max from my rifle) at the muzzle by 19%, and increases that number to impact depending on range, if they have the same profile, because of 43% greater SD than the 350gr. And IF they have similar construction there's little doubt the 500 will create greater cavitation because it will maintain its velocity better through the medium (animal or otherwise). Yes, I agree, if a bullet is too long and too slow for the rate of twist in the barrel, as it slows it may tumble in the medium.
The 500grn Hornady RN in the test mentioned above didn't fair as well as the 500gr Speer... it "blew up", "disappeared" inside the first box with fragments never found! BUT! its kinetic energy flipped the box of media upside-down and made a mess! Does KE matter? You bet! So it's not about just one thing or another! Many variables are involved!
See my next blog on this theme, to be posted tomorrow.
You may have been a kindergarten shooting prodigy and remain a virtuoso performer after nearly 55 years, but don't get the big head. I have been absorbing peripheral and central nervous system trauma for over 59 years now. I won't hazard a guess as to how long Sir Bob has been doing it and he is old enough to be my father, especially if he hailed from Kentucky. Sir Woods is about a year older than me and has been significantly traumatized by the 460 Weatherby Magnum. Never forget: Age before beauty.
Hear, hear ! To Sir Woods. Hear, hear ! to Sir Bob's rhetorical protest to emphasize what Sir Woods said.
A review of some 400-gr loads starting with the .458 WM+, using .458 Lott loads from Barnes No. 3 as a guide, then proceeding to the SAAMI .458 WM loads of Sir Saint Finn Aagaard in the next post.
Tune the load to your rifle's liking, and yours. But hey, why limit the .458 WM to only 60,000 psi when the .458 Lott is allowed 62,500 psi MAP ? Even the .270 WCF is allowed 65,000 psi MAP by SAAMI !
He was a PH in Kenya before coming to USA after 1977. Here he demonstrates proper technique for rapid reload if a followup shot from a .458 WM should ever be needed, rare indeed:
This primer brisance and brass case capacity info may not be as applicable with current makes:
You may have been a kindergarten shooting prodigy and remain a virtuoso performer after nearly 55 years, but don't get the big head. I have been absorbing peripheral and central nervous system trauma for over 59 years now. I won't hazard a guess as to how long Sir Bob has been doing it and he is old enough to be my father, especially if he hailed from Kentucky. Sir Woods is about a year older than me and has been significantly traumatized by the 460 Weatherby Magnum. Never forget: Age before beauty.
LOL! no big head here Sir Ron, i remain a lifetime student, always more to learn.
No doubt young Sir Jerry's .458 WM+ combo of 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps and 500-gr TBSS at +2350 fps is hard to beat. All done at less than 3.6" COL.
For the geriatric set, it is clear that a 400-grain soft and solid combo, at whatever velocity is comfortable for the old bones, will do it all, whether in SAAMI .458 WM or .458 WM+. Just don't forget to apply the brakes on the wheelchair if shooting from a sit with +2500 fps 400-grainers.
Lest we forget, coming sooner or later from Hammer Bullets, after their tweaking: .458 Cal-400g Shock Hammer
Barnes Buster for the 400-gr solid until something else is available without the little pinhole in the meplat.
The .458 Cal-402g Shock Hammer (above) might make a good solid. Seated with powder filling the hollow point, if it would feed with such a huge meplat, base forward. Big FN and hollow base, CG forward, adding dart stability to shoulder stability. That might Bagwell.
Sir Ron, Having just read the above, I am reminded of how effective the 450 grain NF and 450 grain Punch bullets were on Cape Buff (shot through them) and on Ele (shot through the head and on into the body) at only 2150 fps!!!
"No doubt young Sir Jerry's .458 WM+ combo of 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps and 500-gr TBSS at +2350 fps is hard to beat. All done at less than 3.6" COL."
I am persuaded to stick with our Geriatric loads and keep my .458 2.4 rifle weight below 10 pounds; and COL = 2.88 inch.
A 400-grainer soft and solid combo at anywhere from 1800 fps to 2500 fps should satisfy all ages of man and beast. Might be able to get them shooting very close to same POI at close range where either a soft or solid might be used. The pointier soft will make the long range hits easier.
Sir Saint Bagwell used a semi-soft lead 480-grainer at 1300 fps to do all with his .45-2.1-Incher Sharps with barrel sights. The 400-grain Barnes Buster might do all at 1800 to 2000 fps in lever action or single shot. Ditto the 480-grain DGX at 1600 fps or faster. No need to expand for any of those to make a bloody big hole in anything needing it.
I'm saving the 480-gr DGX for my M1886 lever action. If I ever needed 480 grainers in the .458 WM or .458 WM+ (not likely with 400-grain Shock Hammer on the way) Bubba will cut off the tips of 500-gr TSX bullets.
Tom was a good shot. A cape buffalo that was gut-shot with a .458 WM in 1959 in Mozambique was the excuse used for precipitating the urgently needed .458 Lott wildcat in 1971. Meanwhile, Jack and his buddies continued happily hunting dangerous game with their .458 Winchester Magnum rifles, apparently oblivious to the .450 Watts Magnum of 1949. Methinks somebody just wanted a wildcat named after himself. It was a good wildcat, made from a rechambered .458 Winchester Magnum simply altered to accept 2.8" brass instead of 2.5" brass, with no setback of the .458 Winchester Magnum throat. Too bad it got messed up with the short throating by A-Square in the 1989, then finally the official SAAMI version circa 1995 thanks to Art Alphin. I consider his naming of the .577 Tyrannosaur cartridge (just the name, not the cartridge) a much greater accomplishment than his short-throating of the .458 Lott.
The reference to the gut shot buffalo is a fact stated by Lott within his own article which has been misconstrued over time. It is too important not to repeat it here. We spend an awful "lott" of time extolling the virtues of shot placement over cartridges used, yet the .458 Winchester had a continual barrage of slander over too many years for lousy factory ammo and poor bullet placement. Neither issue had anything to do with the cartridge design.
Powder and bullet improvements since the 1960's make the old yarns irrelevant to the modern .458 user.
I probably qualify as the "Oldest Man" with a .458 Winchester Magnum that he still has plans for other than selling it or giving up on it!
But a few words on some .458" bullets tested with results: I just read somewhere (I read a lot of stuff so don't always make a note of from where) how great the former 500gr Speer GS soft performed in Africa. Yet in my bullet test box it only penetrated 6.5" and lost most of the front core, retaining 62%. It did have a fair "mushroom" though. The 480 DGX, on the other hand, with both started at about the same MV of 1800 fps, went completely through the test media (15.5 inches that was hard cover books, dry glossy magazines and two 1.75" softwood planks) impacting a rock ledge leaving a clear .458" imprint. Unfortunately it was lost, though a serious effort was made to find it. The 500gr Hor Int at 2000 fps turned the first box upside down and was never found inside that box nor were there any further holes in the media to identify its exit!
The "solids" completely penetrated everything as well as one of the 350 TSX's, but it hit the edge of one of the planks, tumbled and was lost in the ground beyond. About a year later it was found using a metal detector but none of the other solids were found. They included a 400gr Barnes Buster and the former 330gr FT brass solid. The witness of the holes in the planks clearly revealed that the solids, plus the 480 DGX made neat round holes, caliber size without going off line of direction..
And I have two good loads for the 480 DGX that should work well on anything that I can hit with them: An 1810 fps MV load (identical to the test media load) that, as Sir Ron pointed out, will kill if it never expands with that flat tip; and another load at 2353 fps (82 grns H4895) for bragging rights! The "slow load" at 1810 is motivated by 67 grns of RL-15, WLRM primers. The case was WW. Recoil from the 1810 load is calculated at 29.57 ft-lbs with Mag-na-ports, scope and four cartridges on the buttstock.
That's just some added data that may be of interest to someone.
In going through my "bits and pieces" I've discovered a few 450gr Original X-bullets and some 400gr RN Colorado Custom. CC was bought from Barnes many years ago prior to Coni and Randy Brooks buying Barnes. Then, CC was bought back by Barnes but their 400gr Originals of today do not compare with the Colorado Customs, which have not only a RN but little lead showing, with a much tougher jacket. The BC is quite good at +.300 and I'll drive them with the same load I'm now using for the 405 Rem and 400 Barnes Buster at around 2100 fps. If they shoot into the same group then they'll replace the 405 Rem for bear.
Just to keep you up to date on this "Oldest Man" who still uses a .458 Win Mag as his main firearm, and not yet in a wheelchair!
The reference to the gut shot buffalo is a fact stated by Lott within his own article which has been misconstrued over time. It is too important not to repeat it here. We spend an awful "lott" of time extolling the virtues of shot placement over cartridges used, yet the .458 Winchester had a continual barrage of slander over too many years for lousy factory ammo and poor bullet placement. Neither issue had anything to do with the cartridge design.
Powder and bullet improvements since the 1960's make the old yarns irrelevant to the modern .458 user.
Definitely worth repeating, Sir Woods, what with Lottite reading comprehension being what it is. So there, I repeated it again, hoping it will get through the Lott of thick noggins still out there.
I assume that both of the 350-grain TSX bullets impacted at 2400 fps.
I once shot a cape buffalo with the .510-cal./ 450-gr. GSC HV , MV was 2650 fps, it impacted at about 75 yards. A second shot was placed between his shoulder blades from close range, like 5 to 10 yards, after he was believed to be dead, lying on his side. The bullet that killed him had a pinched shut nose too, but still tumbled through his heart. I think it hit the humerus, heaviest bone in his body before it got to his heart. The one that was fired up close had a perfect mushroom. Gerard Schultz redesigned that bullet after he saw pictures of it.
SD drives expansion at any given velocity. The .510"/ 450-gr SD = 0.247 The .458"/ 350-gr SD = 0.238 The .458"/400-gr SD = 0.272 The 400-gr monometal copper bullet might work better than the 350-grainer if both are impacting at about 2400 fps. The 450-gr monometal copper bullet might work better still, but many old men say the 400-grainer is good enough.
The Mitchell Terminal Effect Index = (Kinetic Energy at Impact) x (Sectional Density) x (Cross Sectional Area of Bullet)
MTE Index = KE x SD x CSA
This may be simply computed from velocity in fps of bullet at impact (V) and bullet weight in grains (W). Bullet diameter cancels out by multiplying SD and CSA.
MTE Index = (V squared/450387) x (W squared/8920)
MTE Index = [(V^2)/450387] x [(W^2)/8920]
That is a simple pocket calculator calculation with only 2 variables to be input, bullet velocity and bullet weight.
Actually makes sense, because if the KE down range is great, it is only going to happen with a heavy bullet that maintained velocity well. To have the required good BC requires SD. To be heavy requires CSA. The MTE Index favors bullet weight as much as velocity, same exponent, and the "down range" velocity aspect is dependent on caliber and weight (SD) contributions to BC. Circular logic ? Certainly better than KE alone.
The old 1.5x5 Leupold died on me today. Shot once and it wouldn’t focus. I tried screwing and messing with it and finally just took it down and swapped it.
Swapped it for an old M8 4x long tube I had.
Decided to try the 250 grain Monoflexs over 78 grains of H4198 seated at 3.30”
When I speed checked them they averaged about 2910 or so.
While not quite a 22-250 it’s pretty lively from prone and I think I could knock a deer off with it. Zeroed it 2.5” high at 100. Should give me a 0-250 thumper.
Take a darn bit to zero those old friction turrets but hopefully with the long ring spacing it’ll hold up. It is quite fun airing those old 458 out. Once I get some nerve I’ll get some of those 400 Hammers as well. Just to try. For now, I’ll pretend it’s an 06 with 165’s.
I've been aware of the deficiencies of the TE formula for quite some time, knowing comparative results were based on momentum alone. Then the TKO is similar with the exception of caliber being introduced which is the main distinction between the terminal effect of various calibers if momentum is the same.
I've played with a dozen different formulas, at least, and have felt ,rightly or wrongly, that momentum is more important than KE, but didn't want to ignore KE as it is a factor.
One other formula that takes in M, SD and CSA, is the following, and I actually like it better though it doesn't consider KE.
Mom. X SD X CSA = KE
Example from my former blog:
1342 fps at impact from a 500gr/.458-cal = 671000 x .341 x .165 /300 = 125.8 TE (the 300 number is to reduce it to manageable terms)
A 250gr x 2684 = 671000 x .313 x .09 (250gr/.338 cal) /300 = 63 TE A 275gr x 2440 = 671000 x .348 x .09 (275gr/.338 cal)/300 = 70 TE
So in effect momentum, SD and CSA have been included while KE is ignored,
The distinction in the two.338 loads (which have the same mom. as the .458 load) is based solely on the SD distinctions while in other caliber sequences both SD, CSA and momentum might be involved.
In the curent MTE formula, TE would be equal in the three distinct loads above (though at different ranges) -- and, of course, in most cases it would be very difficult for lesser cartridges to equal the .458 using a 500gr (even at less than an optimum load) in momentum at the same impact range. Of course, I counted on that.
But I think I will now go to the momentum formula above x SD x CSA.
As I've written many times, its a comparative thing for personal use, though many other variables could always happen or be introduced, as in the last on bullet testing.
But many thanks for your input, it has convinced me to ignore KE, though I still think it has value because of experience and science.
Bob The 275 Speer semi spitzer at 2500fps fro a 26” Ruger #1 .338wm was a bone breaking and killing machine on big Colorado elk. The same bullet in the 9.3x62 was too soft and poor results were had. Elmer was correct about this bullet in the 338. Was unbeatable. Premiums might be as good but not better.
Beretzs. Your rifle looks good sporting the M8 4 power. It bears some resemblance to my .308 with M8 4 power with the exception that this is the first and only scope ever on my 1953 M70 since I bought it back in the sixties. I soon learned that the .308, M8, and my shooting skill were good in the field for no more than 300 yards, so more scope power would do no good.
Sir Scotty, Very nice M70 deer rifle ! Buy a donkey for that gunporn.
I previously recorded your H4198 load data with the 250-gr Monoflex, very consistent with what I got.
H4198 was most accurate with max load of 82.0 grains (compressed) for 3075 fps MV in a 24" barrel of Ruger No. 1.
AA-5744 was most accurate with my starting load of 65.0 grains (not compressed) for 2725 fps MV in same rifle. The AA-5744 start load was most accurate of all in Daisy the Ruger No. 1. 0.63 MOA for 3 shots at 50 yards, 3 overlapping .458-caliber holes at that range.
1.16 MOA was the best I got with H4198 for 3075 fps MV.
With Monoflex BC of only 0.175 you add 39 fps for the 5-yard correction of chronograph velocity to MV in the 2900 to 3000 fps range. When you get over 3000 fps MV it is 40 fps correction ! The faster you go the faster you lose . My 2725 fps MV load only loses 37 fps in first 5 yards, ha ha.
Got that Leupold 1-5x20mm headed out for warranty repair?
I am switching back to Leupold since Nikon scopes are defunct now. Sad. Weaver too, boo hoo. I will use them until I bust them. The fixed power is a good idea for recoil tolerance, as is 1" tube instead of 30mm, as is smaller objective lens ... all adds up to Leupold 2.5x20mm as a primary or as backup for the bigger scopes. Or iron sights and QD rings as you have. The Leupold 2.5x20mm is as close to immortal as it gets on a .458 WinMag.
Sir Charles, Are those see-through rings ? Yep, I tried those when I first started out too. You might be able to shoot beyond 300 yards with different rings !
Sir Bob, I once dallied with something called the "BS Index" for DG rifles. It related to MV and was the Taylor KO multiplied by sectional density, then multiplied by a constant so that the .375-cal/ 300-grainer at 2450 fps gave a "BSI" of 100, TKO = 39.3. The classic .450 NE with 480-grainer at 2150 fps gave a BSI of 184, TKO = 67.5.
Your system of carrying everything out to impact velocity at various ranges make it much better, whether based on momentum or KE.
Sounds like the extra 2” of barrel helped a good bit. In these WW cases I’m not sure I could fit 82 without overflowing but I’ll have to live with what I’ve got. I hope I don’t meet the whitetail that shrugs one of these off
My good buddy John suggested I try some 480 Woodleighs. May have to order some of them up. I haven’t shot much heavy stuff yet.
Anybody have any results from that bullet in a 458 Win and suggested powders?
Beretzs. Your rifle looks good sporting the M8 4 power. It bears some resemblance to my .308 with M8 4 power with the exception that this is the first and only scope ever on my 1953 M70 since I bought it back in the sixties. I soon learned that the .308, M8, and my shooting skill were good in the field for no more than 300 yards, so more scope power would do no good.
The 100% retaining .458-400-grainer "hollow point " would be useful. Bubba could make them by sacrificing perfectly good 450-gr TSX bullets, or maybe Hammer Bullets could put a "Claw Hammer" or "Jack Hammer" nose on a .458-400-grainer.
Phil Shoemaker might want some of those Jack Hammers for his pocket pistol use in bear country.
First will see what the .458-400-gr Shock Hammer does for weight retention, R&D by Hammer Bullets. New territory for me if the petals come off at less than 2000 fps as rumored ???
The North Forks from Sweden have arrived at www.Reloadinginternational.com so I finally have some .458-cal/ 400-gr North Fork softs on the way for another 400-grainer shoot-off.
I will not have a loose and bent Ruger No. 1 forend screw for the next outing, yee hah.
The North Forks from Sweden have arrived at www.Reloadinginternational.com so I finally have some .458-cal/ 400-gr North Fork softs on the way for another 400-grainer shoot-off.
More Great work for the mission. Wish I could add to it. I did get my moose tag and a bunch of black bear tags. We don't need grizzly tags and in one part of the GMU we can kill 2 grizzlys a year. Just got a box of 12 ga Hevi Shot Tungsten 3" BB . Box says they are going 1450 fps. My Mossberg 500 has a 30" barrel and full choke. I'm going to pattern them in the morning. There is a fresh harvested section of barley 20 feet from my driveway and often the lesser sandhill cranes and different geese come in just above the tree tops. And the trees aren't very tall. Most of my time is taken up with work work. ( driving truck) and milling lumber for the house. Or getting more sawlogs. If I keep the scatter gun with me. Maybe I'll get some ribeye of the sky.
Carry on Men ! Good work all !
P.S. I'm going to check out those Hammer Bullets. That North Fork 400 looks a dandy for the Spruce King. I can seat it in the 3rd cannalure .
More good stuff Sir Ron, currently covered up with another issue, but happily living vicariously through you guys till i can get back in the load shop and shooting bench/sticks.
Sir Spruce, I might be up to visit you one of thee days, will try to time it for the sandhill-moose season. "Ribeye from the sky, the other red meat." That is a good one ! You might even be able to make it to the 4th micro-groove/cannelure on the 400-gr North Fork with the Spruce King. My Alder Queen should do the same. Will see. Measurements are preliminary until bullets are in hand. Hammer Bullets will be hard to beat, however, especially when the .458 Cal-400g Shock Hammer gets on the shelf. North Fork or Hammer, either bullet would be perfect for anything in Alaska.
More good stuff Sir Ron, currently covered up with another issue, but happily living vicariously through you guys till i can get back in the load shop and shooting bench/sticks.
Sir Jerry, Understood, I just tweaked my left knee and it is slowing me down a bit. I stupidly sprained the medial collateral by side-hopping into the back of a pickup truck ! Now have to sit at the loading bench with a straight left leg for the next few days. Not as bad as I did the right knee, lateral collateral, 20 years ago by slipping on moss-covered Tennessee rocks, side-hilling while hunting boar with a spear. That one healed perfectly without a trace of problems. I'll be back !
Meanwhile, I have consulted Bubba about a .458/ 400-gr solid. He can easily transform a 500-gr TBSS into a 400-gr XTBSS. Same as Otto Candies, Jr. did with the .475-cal/ 500-gr TBSS for elephant hunting with the .475 Linebaugh.
Still on the lookout for the .458/ 400-gr HYDRO, even .45-70 Gov't. shooters snatch these up whenever they are in stock:
Well, this is odd. Got a new phone. Had challenges logging in. Somehow 24 hr CF dredged up my old handle . That's much better !!!
So now , Sir Spruce is once again Cold Trigger Finger. As it should be. CTF is appropriate initials for some things . But I've earned my cold trigger finger over 6 decades.
I found some images of special interest. "Bobbed Bullets, Ltd." (not Bubba, not Bobbuh, just Bobbed) is henceforth the name of the up and coming bullet maker with no proprietary secrets.
Sir Bob bobbed a 450-gr A-Frame to make a 402-gr X-A-Frame FNSN that worked through his Marlin 1895.
Below is his interesting lineup with a bullet I cannot identify, the brass or bronze-jacketed RN FMJ, that looks like a heavier version of the Thompson Center Bone Crusher 400-grainer:
Second from left in the long row above, middle one in the three below:
Who is the maker of the Bone Crusher type of FMJ round noses ? Bob did not identify it in his blog notes. The top bullet of the three above is said to be a 600-gr Barnes, with a cannelure and an ogive I have never seen on the 600-gr/.458-cal Barnes Originals. Maybe Sir Bob will enlighten me, or sumbuddy who know ?
That looks like the 500 gr Hornady fmjrn. At least that's what the solids that were loaded in some 458 Lott, Hornady factory ammo looked exactly like. But that was 15 , 16 years ago. ????
I found some images of special interest. "Bobbed Bullets, Ltd." (not Bubba, not Bobbuh, just Bobbed) is henceforth the name of the up and coming bullet maker with no proprietary secrets.
Sir Bob bobbed a 450-gr A-Frame to make a 402-gr X-A-Frame FNSN that worked through his Marlin 1895.
Below is his interesting lineup with a bullet I cannot identify, the brass or bronze-jacketed RN FMJ, that looks like a heavier version of the Thompson Center Bone Crusher 400-grainer:
Second from left in the long row above, middle one in the three below:
Who is the maker of the Bone Crusher type of FMJ round noses ? Bob did not identify it in his blog notes. The top bullet of the three above is said to be a 600-gr Barnes, with a cannelure and an ogive I have never seen on the 600-gr/.458-cal Barnes Originals. Maybe Sir Bob will enlighten me, or sumbuddy who know ?
Sir Ron, That 600gr was indeed from an original plastic box with Barnes name on it, which I no longer have. I think (if my memory hasn't completely failed) that it went with the CZ550 when sold, thinking I couldn't use them in my Ruger #1, .45-70 LT. Too long for stability in the 1:20 twist rate. In fact, I did try them at about 1900 fps from that rifle and they showed tilting in a target at 100 yds. But that wasn't all it could do in that rifle; I believe 2000 fps was safely possible.
The 500gr FMJ RN was offered by Hornady at one time until complaints came in over it's performance on big DG. I've only fired a few, but haven't tested them in media. One day I hope to. They are called "ENCAPSULATED" ON THE BOX OF 50, of which I still have most. The thick bronze jacket of about .075" "encapsulates" a hardened lead core with a copper "cap" on the bottom end. I must try them in tough media when all is in place. I've no doubt they would "sail through" the same media in which I previously tested several .458" solids and softs.
Many thanks for your continued excellent work. And get that knee back to health soon!
PS: I've just posted a new blog on "SLOW and HEAVY or FAST and LIGHT?". The blog you've referenced is still there, only continue on down from the new one.
Sir Spruce, Buy a donkey. Sir Bob confirms. I now vaguely remember the Hornady "encapsulated" bronze-jacketed RN FMJ with a copper or gilding metal cap on the bottom of the bullet. I never bought any of those. My oldest Hornady RN FMJ are steel jacketed with exposed lead on the base. I skipped right over the "encapsulated" and took up again with the DGS with flat nose and steel jacketed 500-gr and 480-gr "solids." Hornady, bless their hearts, have finally come up with good bullets for the .458 WinMag, .458 Lott, and .450 NE with the DGS and DGX combos. The nose projections are short enough to work in the Lott with the 500-grainers, though handicapping the .458 WinMag unless seated less deeply than on the factory cannelure. The 480-grainer is bore diameter and less ahead of the cannelure, so as to work in the no-throat .450 NE. That too needs to be seated less deeply in the .458 WinMag for optimum ballistics. But it works well in the no-throat .45-70 Gov't.
So now I assume that the the TC Bone Crusher 400-gr/.458-cal FMJ solid was made by Hornady.
I missed out on those longer, cannelured, 600-gr Barnes Originals too. Good to know of such things. Buy a donkey to Sir Bob.
The Taylor Knock Out (TKO) was an index meant for solid bullets used on elephant skulls for a Knock Out with a near-brain miss. The TKO was OK, or not, depending on whose opinion was rendered. It was basically a product of caliber, weight and velocity of the bullet, with some constants thrown in for unitary consistency.
I propose a simplified new index for application to soft point bullets used on big game. Coincidentally the numeric value of this new Lethality Index equals the weight of the game animal, in pounds, for which it is adequate. It will be called the Game Weight Index (GWI) of the load. It is very simple, but requires impact range adjustment of velocity, like Sir Bob's MTE.
GWI = (fps bullet velocity at impact )x(grains bullet weight) / (inch-caliber of bullet)x(1000) = Maximum game weight in pounds on the hoof, for the soft point load suitability.
Try it, you will like it.
For .375 H&H with 300-gr Barnes TSX (BC = 0.357)
2500 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2500x300/.375x1000 = 2000# 2263 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2263x300/.375x1000 = 1810# 2041 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2041x300/.375x1000 = 1633# 1832 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1832x300/.375x1000 = 1466#
Let us compare the .458 WinMag with 400-gr GSC HV (BC = 0.372) ... the upcoming 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammer should be very similar in BC ...
2500 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2500x400/.458x1000 = 2183# 2273 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2273x400/.458x1000 = 1985# 2058 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2058x400/.458x1000 = 1797# 1856 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1856x400/.458x1000 = 1621#
Another old favorite of mine and Sir Bob, the .340 WbyMag with 250-gr Nosler Partition (BC = 0.473) at 2818 fps (most accurate load in Nosler #9, and as modest as the above .375 & .458 loads)
2818 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2818x250/.338x1000 = 2084# 2625 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2625x250/.338x1000 = 1942# 2440 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2440x250/.338x1000 = 1805# 2263 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 2263x250/.338x1000 = 1674#
A .375 H&H 300-grainer at 2500 fps is a classic sort of load that has been judged "adequate" by most. Good for an 1800-pound buffalo inside of 100 yards. The .458 WinMag with 400-grainer might be better, at all ranges to infinity. The .340 WbyMag might be barely better at 200 yards, but not at 100 yards, where buffalo should be shot.
The 450-gr TSX in the .458 WM+ with a tropical load (BC = 0.369), Sir Jerry does a bit better than this with his M70 rifle with 3.6" box and SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber:
2400 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2400x450/.458x1000 = 2358# 2176 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2176x450/.458x1000 = 2138# 1966 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 1966x450/.458x1000 = 1932# 1768 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1768x450/.458x1000 = 1737#
With a proper 500-gr soft at 2350 fps in the .458 WM+, consider MV only, pending BC of the unspecified soft bullet:
2350 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2350x500/.458x1000 = 2566#
I like this. Good as any lethality index and easily calculated. It equally weights velocity and bullet weight and by dividing by caliber favors sectional density. Impact velocity factors in the BC. What can possibly be wrong with this ?
I have been wanting to try these for ages so my friend Anthony George hooked me up with some and I can't wait to do some testing...
I loaded up 7 rounds (in some real cruddy looking cases!) with 75gn of BENCHMARK powder and I'm going to shoot them over the chronograph tomorrow. I'm hoping for around 2200fps...
My mag length means I'm limited to 3.340 COL and these are a long projectile, so if you don't like compressed loads these aren't your babies! They're compressed! Loaded long this wouldn't be such a problem and I'm tempted to try the 400gn Hydro's next in my rifle to see how they go. But I'm trying the 450's first and I reckon at 2200fps they will be just awesome against anything.
Stay posted guys and I'll let you know tomorrow how they go!
Excellent. That will be some nice data for the manual. Buy a donkey in advance. Woodleigh manual claims 2280 fps for your load in unspecified but assumed to be 24" barrel length. That is the max velocity load they show, 75.0 grains of Benchmark or Bench Mark 2. Good show !
The feed caps do increase the BOL by about 0.149". BOL without cap = 1.303" BOL with cap = 1.452" If your rifle feeds them well without the cap then you can decompress or add even more powder.
The Taylor Knock Out (TKO) was an index meant for solid bullets used on elephant skulls for a Knock Out with a near-brain miss. The TKO was OK, or not, depending on whose opinion was rendered. It was basically a product of caliber, weight and velocity of the bullet, with some constants thrown in for unitary consistency.
I propose a simplified new index for application to soft point bullets used on big game. Coincidentally the numeric value of this new Lethality Index equals the weight of the game animal, in pounds, for which it is adequate. It will be called the Game Weight Index (GWI) of the load. It is very simple, but requires impact range adjustment of velocity, like Sir Bob's MTE.
GWI = (fps bullet velocity at impact )x(grains bullet weight) / (inch-caliber of bullet)x(1000) = Maximum game weight in pounds on the hoof, for the soft point load suitability.
Try it, you will like it.
For .375 H&H with 300-gr Barnes TSX (BC = 0.357)
2500 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2500x300/.375x1000 = 2000# 2263 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2263x300/.375x1000 = 1810# 2041 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2041x300/.375x1000 = 1633# 1832 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1832x300/.375x1000 = 1466#
Let us compare the .458 WinMag with 400-gr GSC HV (BC = 0.372) ... the upcoming 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammer should be very similar in BC ...
2500 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2500x400/.458x1000 = 2183# 2273 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2273x400/.458x1000 = 1985# 2058 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2058x400/.458x1000 = 1797# 1856 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1856x400/.458x1000 = 1621#
Another old favorite of mine and Sir Bob, the .340 WbyMag with 250-gr Nosler Partition (BC = 0.473) at 2818 fps (most accurate load in Nosler #9, and as modest as the above .375 & .458 loads)
2818 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2818x250/.338x1000 = 2084# 2625 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2625x250/.338x1000 = 1942# 2440 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2440x250/.338x1000 = 1805# 2263 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 2263x250/.338x1000 = 1674#
A .375 H&H 300-grainer at 2500 fps is a classic sort of load that has been judged "adequate" by most. Good for an 1800-pound buffalo inside of 100 yards. The .458 WinMag with 400-grainer might be better, at all ranges to infinity. The .340 WbyMag might be barely better at 200 yards, but not at 100 yards, where buffalo should be shot.
The 450-gr TSX in the .458 WM+ with a tropical load (BC = 0.369), Sir Jerry does a bit better than this with his M70 rifle with 3.6" box and SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber:
2400 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2400x450/.458x1000 = 2358# 2176 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2176x450/.458x1000 = 2138# 1966 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 1966x450/.458x1000 = 1932# 1768 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1768x450/.458x1000 = 1737#
With a proper 500-gr soft at 2350 fps in the .458 WM+, consider MV only, pending BC of the unspecified soft bullet:
2350 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2350x500/.458x1000 = 2566#
I like this. Good as any lethality index and easily calculated. It equally weights velocity and bullet weight and by dividing by caliber favors sectional density. Impact velocity factors in the BC. What can possibly be wrong with this ?
Great, Sir Ron,
The only change I'd make would be in using the CSA of each caliber rather than the nominal caliber, for this reason: The distinction between calibers isn't linear but in area, and that is a significant factor to be considered. For instance: .375/.458 = .8188, or say the .375 is 82% of a .458, whereas in reality the distinction in cross-section-area is .110/.165 = .6666, or say the .375 is in reality only 67% of a .458. Just a further consideration, but I don't want to mess with the simplicity of your GWI.
Outstanding work ! If that is a 5-yard average of 2317 fps for 3 shots (2316.7) with 450-gr HYDRO with cap: BC = 0.250 MV = 2337 fps.
In a 24" barrel IIRC ? The LOAD: 450gn Woodleigh HYDRO Winchester case (trimmed) 75gn BENCHMARK (BM2) powder CCI 250 Mag primer 3.340" OAL (crimped)
Buy a donkey for the data.
Someday I hope to find some 400-gr/.458 HYDROs. Bobbed Bullets, Ltd. might have to make them by pulling the 500-grainers out of the Federal factory loads. That brass saws and files nicely !
Thanks for the report. NF 350 grain SS is regulating well at 50 yards in my 45-70 DR. Taking it out to 100 yards next week and if OK, It will be time to go hunting.
Brand x 400 grainers shoot well also. I will have to get some NF 400 grains to load.
Those NFs look beautiful! It's a bit jarring to see "Made in Sweden" under a map of Montana with "North Fork" in western-style script. I guess it could be worse...like "Made in China." Just glad we can begin getting those bullets again.
Outstanding work ! If that is a 5-yard average of 2317 fps for 3 shots (2316.7) with 450-gr HYDRO with cap: BC = 0.250 MV = 2337 fps.
In a 24" barrel IIRC ? The LOAD: 450gn Woodleigh HYDRO Winchester case (trimmed) 75gn BENCHMARK (BM2) powder CCI 250 Mag primer 3.340" OAL (crimped)
Buy a donkey for the data.
Someday I hope to find some 400-gr/.458 HYDROs. Bobbed Bullets, Ltd. might have to make them by pulling the 500-grainers out of the Federal factory loads. That brass saws and files nicely !
Sir Ron,
Yes, it was fired in my Zastava M70 with 24" barrel. Was very happy with the results and it would take a lot animal to stop that bullet at that speed! Oh, I'm sorry... I forgot, it's a .458 Winchester Magnum! According to the 'experts' it would bounce off!
'Ernest Hemingway’s friend A.E. Hotchner once described a “yellowed four-by-five picture of Ernest,” shown him by Hemingway, “aged five or six, holding a small rifle. Written on the back in his mother’s hand was the notation, ‘Ernest was taught to shoot by Pa when 2½ and when 4 could handle a pistol.’” Firearms and shooting infused Hemingway’s existence and thus his writing ...'
Hemingway tops Sir Jerry for early age to start shooting. Wasn't Hemingway's Pop a medical doctor ? My how times have changed ! Good medicine and education back then is child abuse now.
Speaking of education, reminds me of higher math being practiced over at Sir Bob's latest blog:
Sir Bob: If you multiply KEI by MF (your modified TKO containing M, V, and both CSA and sectional density {the M/CSA equivalent} as multipliers, instead of caliber alone), your new TE ends up being momentum cubed with some manipulation by constants for manageable numerical value:
You misspoke, that is a Wyoming map not Montana, but, yes, it sure is better to have Swedish North Fork Bullets than Chinese North Fork Bullets ! Buy a donkey for expressing that sentiment !
"Penetration Index" = PI = (KE/CSA) x (Sectional Density)
"Shock Power Index" = SPI = KE x CSA
where KE = Kinetic Energy of bullet CSA = Cross-sectional Area of bullet M = Mass of bullet V = Velocity of bullet D = Diameter of bullet N and Z = numerical constant factors for converting between Sectional Density (square bullet convention proportional to reality) and CSA (round bullet reality) for a particular "Index" formula N is used for PI formula Z is used for SPI formula
So by the same reduction to factors as I have been foisting on Sir Bob:
PI = N(M^2 x V^2)/ (D^4) = Momentum squared divided by bullet diameter to 4th power and all that multiplied by a constant numerical factor.
SPI = Z(MV^2)/(D^2) = Kinetic Energy divided by bullet diameter squared and all that multiplied by a constant
Such is the genius of Art Alphin, who claimed he got a Bachelor of Science degree in "weapon systems engineering" from West Point. During the brief time I attended West Point (until they quit Vietnam and I quit them), there was no such degree. There were no majors then, just an all-purpose BS from West Point. Art designed the SAAMI .458 Lott throat with his advanced BS.
Allow me to suggest a new Lethality Index = SquareRoot[PI x SPI] = BS2 Index
BS2 Index = Square Root of [N x Z x M^3 x V^4 / D^2]
BS2 Index = (New Constant) x (Square Root of bullet Mass) x (Kinetic Energy at Impact) / (bullet Diameter)
So Art's Penetration Index basically boils down to Momentum applied per unit of cross-sectional area of bullet, with the depth of penetration arising from that being proportional to sectional density of the bullet. Sectional density drives penetration for any given "Momentum-Squared" value. This basis on momentum occurs even though the calculation is based on a Kinetic Energy value. Seems this would be good only for nondeforming solid bullets stable enough to stay on course.
Art's Shock Power Index reflects the amount of KE applied to the bullet's CSA imprint on the target at impact. Basically how hard it smacks the surface at impact. So characteristics of both the bullet and the impact medium come into play regarding wounding effectiveness. Seems like it would be applicable for comparing only bullets of the same type soft point construction.
A Unified Field Theory of Lethality Indices is needed to index for a combined penetration and smackdown potential for any bullet.
I am going to fiddle with BS Index, GW Index, and BS2 Index as well as Sir Bob's Latest TE adventures.
The "BS2" Index acronym stands for Bullet Swag Too/Also/2.
I have an update for you all. I loaded a couple of empty cases with 74gn of BENCHMARK powder instead of 75 behind the 450gn Hydro - and in my 24" barrelled Zastava the velocity was the same! Just thought that I'd share that in case someone wants to duplicate my load. I've since loaded a couple with 73gn and I'll keep you posted on how that goes...
I have an update for you all. I loaded a couple of empty cases with 74gn of BENCHMARK powder instead of 75 behind the 450gn Hydro - and in my 24" barrelled Zastava the velocity was the same! Just thought that I'd share that in case someone wants to duplicate my load. I've since loaded a couple with 73gn and I'll keep you posted on how that goes...
Russ
Sir Russ, you have found the 'accuracy node'......those loads should shoot very well, as is often the case with the 458 WM, it's a lot more accurate than it needs to be, good stuff Gentlemen.
'Ernest Hemingway’s friend A.E. Hotchner once described a “yellowed four-by-five picture of Ernest,” shown him by Hemingway, “aged five or six, holding a small rifle. Written on the back in his mother’s hand was the notation, ‘Ernest was taught to shoot by Pa when 2½ and when 4 could handle a pistol.’” Firearms and shooting infused Hemingway’s existence and thus his writing ...'
Hemingway tops Sir Jerry for early age to start shooting. Wasn't Hemingway's Pop a medical doctor ? My how times have changed ! Good medicine and education back then is child abuse now.
Speaking of education, reminds me of higher math being practiced over at Sir Bob's latest blog:
Sir Bob: If you multiply KEI by MF (your modified TKO containing M, V, and both CSA and sectional density {the M/CSA equivalent} as multipliers, instead of caliber alone), your new TE ends up being momentum cubed with some manipulation by constants for manageable numerical value:
TE = (M^3)(V^3)/N
Sir Ron, I don't claim knowledge of advanced math - that's obvious! I graduated from highschool, grade 12, with top honors in my class, but only did a total of six math courses, including trig and physics at that level, and they were my best grades. The only math I've done since was related to optics for telescope making in changing a spherical mirror to a parabolical shape. And five years of post secondary never included one math or science course - to my regret. So you've got me on that one.
But I'm convinced that the TKO formula is flawed as it stands. The reasons are logical. For example: If a 400gr, .416 caliber bullet impacts an animal with the same momentum as a 400gr, .458 caliber, the TKO formula gives an advantage to the .458 caliber (We could specify the numbers but that doesn't make any difference in the outcome as to momentum. But SD does! The 400gr - .416" has an SD of .330 while the 400gr - .458" has an SD of .272. IF the bullets have the same structure and profile it's logical to assume that the .416" will penetrate deeper while the .458" will make a larger cavity. It appears that could be a "write off! No? BUT, if a 500gr - .458" is used producing identical momentum then that "wins" due to it SD of .341, PLUS its CSA of .165 sq in versus .136 sq in, by which the .458 should penetrate at least as deeply as the 400gr, .416". At least that's my logic, and I think from research it works something like that. The advantage the .458 has over the .416 is not only in CSA but SD and probably momentum, depending on the MV of each. And that's assuming equal structure (either soft or solid) and profile. But the exception is IF penetration is complete for each, then the .458 wins regardless of KE or momentum. In such cases CSA wins. Yeah, I know there are some "what ifs".
Is my logic wrong? But I defer to you in "advanced math"!
I gave up on lethality indices a long time ago, but you have rekindled the interest. I never added the down range effects of BC for soft point loads, but lookout now, I got the itch!
Of course the Taylor KO has limits, and was only ever meant as a rough judge at efectiveness in knocking an elephant down with a close miss of the brain on a head shot. To me that means it should only be applied to solid bullets, because that is the only type of bullet that should be shot into the skull of an elephant. Also limited to the recommended DG rifles of the day, probably .366 to .622 caliber, from 9.3x62mm Mauser to .600 NE. No needle-like flechettes at hyper velocity, nor manhole covers dropped on an elephant's head from a few inches above.
The TKO of a 50-pound, 25"-diameter manhole cover moving at 1 fps is huge ! TKO = 1250 exactly. Compare to the 300-gr .375-cal at 2500 fps: TKO = 40 or 40.1 depending on how precise you need to be. Or the 900-gr .622-cal at 1950 fps: TKO = 156.
OK, surely any lethality index has got to have limits on the projectile caliber it is applied to.
I am going to come up with one that may be arbitrarily applied to the bracket from .308-caliber to .458-caliber, and bullet weights and muzzle velocities those calibers get routinely hunted with, using soft points. We all know the .458 WinMag is more than big enough for any game animal that walks the planet, and a .30-06 with the right bullet will do for the lower end of the spectrum of game weight.
Kinetic energy is not the answer. Much of it goes into noise and temporary wound channel and heating the meat. Too much wasted sound and fury. Momemtum is conserved in a more friendly-to-the-SWAG way. Energy is conserved but kinetic energy evaporates into many other forms of energy.
Mass, caliber, velocity, and how they relate through sectional density and ballistic coefficient, that's the ticket for my SWAG via KISS principle.
"Ballistic Product" (BP) is my new accounting method. It is simply the product of 4 factors. Cute, eh ?
BP = (Bullet Weight in grains) x (bullet Velocity in fps) x (bullet caliber in inches) x (sectional density as based on pounds of bullet per square bullet CSA sq.in.)
BP = W x V x C x Sd
BP is numerologically cumbersome, too big, so it is converted to a unitless index by dividing it by 84,000. That is arrived at by using 7000 grains per pound and 12 inches per foot: 7000 x 12 = 84,000
Ballistic Product Index = BPI = (BP / 84,000) = (W x V x C x Sd) / 84,000
Now we are cooking.
The final touch from Sir Bob's tutelage is to make it the "Terminal Ballistic Product Index" (TBPI) by using impact velocity at locations downrange from the muzzle. That's how BC gets involved.
But first I must start by calculating some TBPI at the muzzle velocity.
As Sir Bob said, we have to make our rough comparisons when using any index by sticking with similar bullets by type of construction of the soft point bullet. It is impossible to control for live game tissue impact due to its constantly changing state. This is like horse shoes and hand grenades in many ways.
So a .375 H&H is twice a .30-06, and about equal to an Elmer Keith .45-70 Gov't. lever action load. A SAAMI .458 WinMag 500-grainer is about double the .375 H&H. Sounds about right. Must be a numerological God wink.
Next will figure a Sir Bob like relation of TBPI to optimum game weight downrange using BC for bullets of different caliber and same soft point type, like a Woodleigh PPSN for all ...
480 900 0.458 0.341 84000 0.803201143 300 180 1750 0.308 0.271 84000 0.313005 450 275 1500 0.338 0.345 84000 0.572638393 450 Had to guess at the Yardage vs. Velocity but built a little spreadsheet using three Cartridges that I have killed a few things with, it is pretty interesting.
You did get the 480-gr/.458-cal SD switched for the 500-gr SD, however. 480-grainer SD is 0.3268978 or 0.327 for our purposes. 500-grainer SD = 0.341
So for 480-grainer at 1950 fps MV from the .458 WinMag, TBPI-M = 1.669
I think you underestimated the 300-yard velocity a bit for the 480-gr/.458-cal. It might be closer to 1300 fps and quite Bagwellian at 300 yards. If so, TBPI-300y = 1.113 If that is your hardcast FN from your .458 WinMag, it would do well on elk if placed well at 300 yards, like a hot Bowie knife in butter.
This suggests possible matching of TBPI to game weight. I am open to suggestions.
First I think we should consider the deer rifle. The .30-30 WCF has worked pretty well as a deer rifle.
The 170-gr/.308 Winchester Silver Tip seems to be good for deer with minimum fuss (BC = 0.255, SD = 0.256) or the 170-gr Nosler Partition "flat point" with identical BC, and SD, of course: 2200 fps is for a 24" barrel. Let us say MV is 2100 fps for the most common 20" lever action that has performed so well with that Winchester factory load. Limiting it to 200 yards or less is best.
Maybe we say a TBPI of about 0.300 is a good deer cartridge ? Maybe we say that TBPI x 1000 = optimum game weight in pounds with good shot placement and good bullet ? The trusty thutty-thutty is good for a 311-pound deer at 50 yards, a 288-pound deer at 100 yards, etc.
So your .458 WinMag with 480-grainer at 1950 fps MV will handle a 1600-pound bison at spitting distance. Nice 5-1/2 y.o. herd bull would make lots of burger, a robe and skull.
Just a suggestion for now, pending further considerations.
Maybe for DG we say that optimum game weight is TBPI x 666 pounds, the mark of the beast. If you run out of soft point TBPI for really big DG then you switch to nondeforming FN solid bullets and let the devil worry about TBPI ?
So John55 coaxed me into getting some REAL bullets for my 458 and I ended up with a box of 500 grain Swift A-Frames. Any sorta input for that one? I have RL7, H322, H4198 and some others that should work fine with the big guy. Not looking for every last FPS from it, just something to play around with in the back yard.
Yep. Just borrowed your sd number and made a poor guess on remaining velocity. Ran some numbers later and still have twice the tbi at 450 than the trusty ‘06. I’ve shot a lot of rocks at that distance and those big flat nosed slugs land hard. Best to you sir!
I have a couple boxes of Swift A-Frame .458 -cal, old production from about turn of century. One box each of 500-gr and 400-gr. The bullet overall lengths of those old ones are 1.400" and 1.170" respectively, within +/- 0.005" with their flat lead meplats topping off the semi-spitzer ogives. The nose projections of those bullets are respectively 0.785" and 0.685" ahead of the cannelures. The cannelures are about 0.070" broad in length of run on the shank, 0.445" diameter.
Looking at SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO of 2014, The A-Frame 500-grainer is 1.430" long with BC = .361 450-grainer is 1.310" long with BC = .325 and 400-grainer is 1.130" long with BC = .258 (bigger exposed lead flat for tubular magazine use). That is a little different from my old ones which will be reserved for Bobbed Bullets, Ltd. R&D.
The manual does show a RL-7 load for the 500-gr A-Frame in the .458 WinMag. That powder is a little on the fast side for top velocity at low pressure, but here it is, for a 24" barrel, F-215 primer, and Federal brass, 3.340" COL or less, and 60,000 psi or less:
Or use the .458 Lott loads from the manual, always a safe starting place and easily surpassed, with the .458 WM+. I don't expect high velocity at low pressure from Swift A-Frames, with their sticky-copper, full-bearing shanks, I just expect boringly reliable terminal performance and good accuracy for one-shot kills. Speaking of terminal bullet performance (TBP) I gotta get back to crunching numbers for TBPI ... Terminal Ballistic Product Index. Yawn. Real or phony, TBPI for soft point bullets is probably no worse than TKO for solid bullets. Not all bad.
Popping back in Sir Ron to say; I think Mr. Bagwell proved that a big lead .458ish slug will kill them as far as you can hit them well and he started his at 1300 fps or so. The buffalo hunters of old would double lung from quite a ways off. Doesn't result in a DRT but was efficient. I would have no qualms about poking one at 250 yards and that limit is my confidence about hitting the spot every time. There was only one Saint Bagwell.
A .30-06 firing a 180gr NP at 2750 should be capable for a 800 + lb moose at 400 yds with the bullet placed in vitals. Under my hunting conditions that 180 with a .474 BC would still be making around 2050 fps at 400 yds. In multiplying by 1000 that would be a calf moose! Many adult moose have been taken at 400 using a .30-06. 1 shot? 2 shots? 3 shots. Dunno, but the CO who taught seminars on moose hunting, and suitable rifles, claimed 2 ft-lbs per pound of weight was adequate assuming a proper hit. But, of course, adult moose vary greatly in size and weight from about 700 lbs to 1400 lbs! So 2050 fps at impact = 1680 ft-lbs/2 = 840 lbs. Also, a young man in Penn State killed a 700 lb black bear with his 30-30, and 1 shot! So 180x 2050x.308x.271 /84000 = .367 (close enough) x 2500 = 916 lbs (close enough?) Then, we had a native guy as a border attending college here. He and family were moose hunters (when ever they wanted) and he claimed to have killed an adult bull at 400 yards using 180gr Rem Core Lokts. He also loaded his bedroom with "illegal" cigarettes and boxes of .30-06, 180gr Core Lokts (He had a business going at home for the community + a maple syrup business!)
Just some thoughts for your computer... and I'm reworking my thoughts on TE. My new "new" formula would work out to 968 lbs... Ha! Written with erasable ink!
Bob an adult Alaskan Yukon bull moose can weigh clos to a ton
Most resident moose hunters here are not trophy hunters -- and there are a lot of us! There are tags for calf, cows and bulls. For a 1400 lb bull to be actually harvested would be a very rare occurrence! I suspect the same would be true for resident Alaskans. While there might be a few 1800 lb class adult bulls, Alaskan residents are mostly meat hunters so will take what's available for the table, a calf, cow or 1100 lb bull.
Trophy hunting is entirely another matter. If someone out of state has hired an outfitter and paid, what? $10,000 for a "trophy" bull, then likely he/she will want the biggest possible within the limited time frame. In such a case he/she will not be toting a .30-06 - at least I wouldn't, unless the outfitter lucked out and had one tied to a tree not more than 50 yards away! If a trophy hunter is very selective in wanting the "best" bull possible, it could mean a shot at +350 yards, and not at a perfect angle. In such a scenario, I'd want at least a .338 magnum, and my 9.3 x 62 might even be better.
Of course, you know all that stuff, but I just thought I should explain where I'm coming from. That is, I think Sir Ron should multiply by 2500 rather than 1000 to give due credit to a standard .30-06 well loaded.
Popping back in Sir Ron to say; I think Mr. Bagwell proved that a big lead .458ish slug will kill them as far as you can hit them well and he started his at 1300 fps or so. The buffalo hunters of old would double lung from quite a ways off. Doesn't result in a DRT but was efficient. I would have no qualms about poking one at 250 yards and that limit is my confidence about hitting the spot every time. There was only one Saint Bagwell.
Amen !
Here is the TBPI of a 480-gr/.458 FN cast started at 1300 fps MV, assuming BC = 0.243 as for Lyman PH, a Bagwell .45-70 Gov't. BPCR load:
Sir Bob, It is done, the multiplier is now 2500 lbs per 1.000 unit of BPI.
Wow ! A SAAMI .458 WinMag turning out 2.000 TBPI works with proper soft point loads on well placed body shots on game up to 5000 pounds. 4000-pound hippo, no problemo. For a 7,700-pound white rhino, elephant, or whale, switch to nondeforming FN solids.
Or use TBPI as a rough gauge: 1.000 = 1 H&H unit of TBPI
The .30-06 with 180-grainer at 2750 fps is about half an H&H unit.
The .458 WinMag with 500-grainer at 2150 fps is about 2 H&H units.
I have shot only one moose in Alaska with a .458 WinMag, a cow weighing about 800 pounds. A handloaded 500-gr Hornady RNSN started at 2150 fps MV caused a DRT-bang-flop at 100 yards, even though the jacket separated from the core of the bullet. One rib was broken going in, three ribs were broken on the offside.
I would guess her average consort would weigh about 1200 pounds, but there are indeed some giant old bull moose near a ton. Just like there are average bison bulls that weigh 1300 pounds at 3 y.o. and 1600 to 1800 lbs at 5 y.o. older ones over a ton, and the rare giant close to 3000 pounds. The .458 WinMag will handle them all with proper bullet and proper placement from proper range.
If sniping at 3000-pound animals from long range, use a TBPI of 1.2 at impact, since (1.2 TBPI) x (2500 lbs/ 1.0 TBPI) = 3000 pounds. Buy a donkey Sir Bob, for the calibration.
OK, with the rarity of 3000-pound bison bulls, only 1.0 H&H unit of TBPI is required for the "Ultimate Buffalo Rifle." That will take care of about any critter up to 2500 pounds on the hoof.
Sir Jerry is onto a good load with his 450-gr TSX at 2418 fps with 83 grains of AA-2460. Ditto Sir Bob with his 450-gr TSX at 2413 fps load with 84 grains of H335. Both of those are from 24" barrels, corrected to MV by adding 11 fps to 5-yard chrono velocity, IIRC.
Previous top 450-grainer load from my Ruger No. 1 .458 WM with 24" barrel: 450-gr TSX, Hornady .458 WM brass, F-215 primer, COL 3.565", 87*F 83.0 grains AA-2230 3 shots, 5-yard Caldwell G2 chrono fps: 2493, 2495, 2492 Average = 2493 fps, so for BC = 0.369: MV = 2504 fps
First 2 shots went into one hole at 50 yards and I pulled the third shot by a half inch, or that is when my forend screw started bending and loosening. Ho hum. Fixed that.
Better not shoot any 3000-pound bison bulls past 400 yards. That is about the limit of my marksmanship on caribou anyway, with a .340 WbyMag, which is a puny cartridge compared to the .458 WM+.
OK, with the rarity of 3000-pound bison bulls, only 1.0 H&H unit of TBPI is required for the "Ultimate Buffalo Rifle." That will take care of about any critter up to 2500 pounds on the hoof.
Sir Jerry is onto a good load with his 450-gr TSX at 2418 fps with 83 grains of AA-2460. Ditto Sir Bob with his 450-gr TSX at 2413 fps load with 84 grains of H335. Both of those are from 24" barrels, corrected to MV by adding 11 fps to 5-yard chrono velocity, IIRC.
Previous top 450-grainer load from my Ruger No. 1 .458 WM with 24" barrel: 450-gr TSX, Hornady .458 WM brass, F-215 primer, COL 3.565", 87*F 83.0 grains AA-2230 3 shots, 5-yard Caldwell G2 chrono fps: 2493, 2495, 2492 Average = 2493 fps, so for BC = 0.369: MV = 2504 fps
First 2 shots went into one hole at 50 yards and I pulled the third shot by a half inch, or that is when my forend screw started bending and loosening. Ho hum. Fixed that.
Better not shoot any 3000-pound bison bulls past 400 yards. That is about the limit of my marksmanship on caribou anyway, with a .340 WbyMag, which is a puny cartridge compared to the .458 WM+.
Good stuff, Sir Ron,
In about a week I'll be taking off for a few days "Down East", so will miss some blog writing until I get back. Then I'll be checking in here again!
With our Federal Election tomorrow, followed by getting matters ready for the trip... well you know how that goes!
...Just to remind folks what the .458WM was originally designed to accomplish, I've taken the liberty to add to this conversation, albeit perhaps mundane to some.
To clarify, I am a firm believer in "heavy for caliber" bullets in all my rifles. I have no doubt there are bullets of many different shapes, weights, velocity, which achieve the same result. No disrespect to those shooters who are not of my ilk.
I was rootn' around in my ammo stash, and lo and behold, there were some of my old hand loads for my .458WM. I had not shot my rifle since my last journey to Zim (2017) so I thought...why not shoot this thing?
I filled four one gallon water jugs and placed them in a cardboard box, side by side. Between each jug,I placed a double layer of cardboard. Twelve total pieces of cardboard which includes the box itself. On a stump, I placed an old plastic Lucerne milk carton, and on top of the milk carton, I placed cardboard box with the water jugs. This put the "target" at about eye level. I fetched my trusty Winchester Model 70 .458WM, marched twenty yards, took a deep breath, exhaled slowly and let loose a 500gr Speer African Grand Slam.
Obviously the results were predictable, complete penetration, and a giant water spray. What was a bit of a surprise, the Lucerne milk box had a huge chunk missing from where the cardboard water jug box was sitting. There were pieces of plastic strewn outwards twenty feet beyond the stump. The AGS continued on its merry way into the brush beyond.
Of course this was an exercise in futility in some ways, because I knew from past experience shooting elephant how the AGS performed. The average distance shooting eles was roughly twenty yards, and side brain shots were pass throughs.
The AGS being a bit shorter than most FMJ bullets, I could load more powder with little, or no compressed loads to achieve velocities in excess 2200fps (without any deleterious problems) I decided increased velocity in MY rifle was not a distinct advantage and settled on 2185fps. Worked for me!
As an aside: To the late John Buhmiller, and the Winchester folks who designed the .458WM, you done good.
Now you guys can continue with your serious stuff.
Take care on the trip and I am hoping the satanists don't steal your upcoming election like they are doing here in the USA. The Democrat voters of USA sure do remind me of The Walking Dead zombies of comic book/TV show infamy. Looks like they are having a Joe Biden rally under the international bridge, highway overpass, at the Del Rio, TX border. That's about 13,000 Democrat voters in a rally ! Though that Democrat rally is small by Trump standards for attendance at rallies, it is a new record Democrat gathering, like a huge "herd" of zombies, or a huge "destruction" of feral cats, or a huge "stench" of skunks. What do you call a group of Democrats ? A "damnation" of Democrats. I made that up, but it is going to stick.
Back to TBPI not TBIP, ha ha on my typo:
The upcoming rifleshooter generation is a different breed, with their lack of admiration for the big bores, hung up as they are on rat calibers and tactical style. At least they will be well armed for the zombie apocalypse and CQB herd shooting. Apparently the big bore is an endangered species in that scenario. However, the .458 WM offers advantages for engaging herds at longer ranges, whereby shooting amongst a herd of zombies could take out a dozen or more of them if their heads are in line. Body shots can take down an equal number of them in a row for finishing with a sword slash or stab to the head.
We big bore fans are a dying breed, and it is our duty to hang on as long as we can to keep the art alive. I am thinking that using 400-grain/.458 bullets for everything might spare some wear and tear on the experienced practitioners of the art, allowing us to keep kicking for a longer duration. Physically less cumulative trauma on the body of the shooter, mentally less distracting too, no fretting over changing bullet weight effects, etc. "Beware the man with one bullet weight."
It is hoped that Hammer Bullets will soon be bringing out a winner in the "Legendary" 400-grain/.458-caliber, monometal copper, Shock Hammer hollow point. Hopefully it will have a ballistic coefficient about like the GSC HV (G1 += 0.372 at 2500 fps), or dare we hope for better ?
Optimum buffalo weights are nigh onto a ton at 600 yards, over 3000 pounds at 200 yards. That'll do. Many different 400-grain/.458-cal bullets of lesser BC will do at closer ranges. Pick your 400-gr poison to sling at chosen MV.
This is an easily achieved, practical load in the factory .458 Winchester Magnum rifle with 3.4" magazine box length. 2600 fps MV is possible in the .458 WM+ with 3.6" magazine, or Ruger No. 1 single shot. More fun than necessary is possible, just for kicks.
...Just to remind folks what the .458WM was originally designed to accomplish, I've taken the liberty to add to this conversation, albeit perhaps mundane to some.
To clarify, I am a firm believer in "heavy for caliber" bullets in all my rifles. I have no doubt there are bullets of many different shapes, weights, velocity, which achieve the same result. No disrespect to those shooters who are not of my ilk.
I was rootn' around in my ammo stash, and lo and behold, there were some of my old hand loads for my .458WM. I had not shot my rifle since my last journey to Zim (2017) so I thought...why not shoot this thing?
I filled four one gallon water jugs and placed them in a cardboard box, side by side. Between each jug,I placed a double layer of cardboard. Twelve total pieces of cardboard which includes the box itself. On a stump, I placed an old plastic Lucerne milk carton, and on top of the milk carton, I placed cardboard box with the water jugs. This put the "target" at about eye level. I fetched my trusty Winchester Model 70 .458WM, marched twenty yards, took a deep breath, exhaled slowly and let loose a 500gr Speer African Grand Slam.
Obviously the results were predictable, complete penetration, and a giant water spray. What was a bit of a surprise, the Lucerne milk box had a huge chunk missing from where the cardboard water jug box was sitting. There were pieces of plastic strewn outwards twenty feet beyond the stump. The AGS continued on its merry way into the brush beyond.
Of course this was an exercise in futility in some ways, because I knew from past experience shooting elephant how the AGS performed. The average distance shooting eles was roughly twenty yards, and side brain shots were pass throughs.
The AGS being a bit shorter than most FMJ bullets, I could load more powder with little, or no compressed loads to achieve velocities in excess 2200fps (without any deleterious problems) I decided increased velocity in MY rifle was not a distinct advantage and settled on 2185fps. Worked for me!
As an aside: To the late John Buhmiller, and the Winchester folks who designed the .458WM, you done good.
Now you guys can continue with your serious stuff.
You have attained a seat at the Square Table. What is your preferred Sir Name for Knighthood ? BTW, I like all .458-caliber bullets from 250-grains to 600-grains, but I am working a 400-grainer schtick right now.
OK, so the fancy bullets do not expand reliably below 1600 fps. I did say pick your 400-grain poison as needed for the job at hand. Remember Elmer Keith recommended a .45-70 lever action load with 400-gr FN cast lead at 1800 fps for timber hunting of elk and such. The TBPI of a 400-gr Lyman #457643 FN plain base FN at 1800 fps = 1.068 H&H units <<< 2670 pounds. With a BC of whatever (G1 = 0.280 as claimed by Lyman), it would surely be able to handle something like this bowhunted elk, arrowed by Sir Jerry's pal:
A hard cast lead FN of only 255 grains/.452-cal and 835 fps from a .45 LC is quite the penetrator. Elmer's load will get the job done. No expansion needed with a hardcast FN.
That will do nicely, just like your .458 Winchester Magnum. Sir Jerry is the official beknighter with the flat of his Bagwell Bowie. Many ceremonies will be performed retroactively at the next meeting of the Square Table. You are the 16th living member. The rest are whooping it up in the Happy Hunting Ground.
Whether it is Ballistic Science, Bedtime Story, or just that other kind of BS, consider a ranking of muzzle whomp by BPI in H&H units at muzzle velocity, with Woodleigh Weldcore PPSN bullets from .308 caliber to .458 caliber, listed in bold black, same type bullet construction for eight different bullets. Downrange TBPI can be calculated (later) using G1 BC as provided here to use in a ballistics calculator. These soft point Woodleigh bullets will be restricted to recommended maximum impact velocity or less. Then a few other bullet types will be listed for consideration, including two cast bullets of note. This may be useful as a treatment for insomnia, if nothing else.
.30-06 to .30-378 WbyMag: 180-gr, .308-cal, 2750 fps, SD = 0.271, BC = 0.376 (Woodleigh PPSN type 1, limited to 2900 fps impact): BPI = 0.492 180-gr, .308-cal, 3000 fps, SD = 0.271, BC = 0.435 (Woodleigh PPSN type 2, limited to 3000 fps impact): BPI = 0.537 220-gr, .308-cal, 3150 fps, SD = .331, BC = 0.930 (Lost River J4): BPI = 0.841
.340 WbyMag to .338 LapuaMag: 225-gr, .338-cal, 2900 fps, SD = 0.281, BC = 0.425 (Woodleigh PPSN limited to 2900 fps impact): BPI = 0.738 270-gr, .338-cal, 2900 fps, SD = .338, BC = 0.757 (Lost River J4): BPI = 1.065
Some practical .458 WM+ loads will not even chamber in the short and tight-throated SAAMI .458 Lott. If the perfectly safe load for the .458 WM+ has a bullet ogive that will allow it to chamber in the SAAMI .458 Lott, it may cause excessive pressure when fired in the SAAMI .458 Lott. Lottites beware. Jack is spinning in his grave due to what SAAMI did to his wildcat.
After having a screw loose (on my Ruger No. 1, not me personally) for my first trial of Buffalo Bore .458 WM load with 400-gr TSX, I had to do it again, this time with my Ruger M77 Mk II with Shilen barrel. No loose screws.
If you do not mind paying 6-dollars per cartridge (before S&H), it is good stuff. I fired $48 dollars worth of it yesterday, 8 shots. 2 shots to get on paper at 100 yards, scope adjustment after each shot. Then 3 shots nearly zeroed. Then a final scope clicking for last 3 shots.
One more adjustment and a one-shot check before hunting.
OK, I have 13 rounds of Buffalo Bore left over at cost to me of ~$6.60 per round including S&H to my door. I would much rather be loading my own with a 400-gr./.458-cal Shock Hammer bullets. Need to finish off the Buffalo Bore. Better use it up for deer hunting instead of the planned cast loads, 407-grainers and 579-grainers. I guess I am in a rut with 400-gr. copper right now, a rut for the deer rut.
Here is my deer rifle, again, this year, I must like this rifle. Bare/empty weight in the HS Precision stock is about 9 pounds. In the Zytel canoe paddle she weighs about 8.5 pounds bare. Modeling a few of her outfits, below, is Alderella Ruger-Shilen, the "Knik Knocker." That is pronounced "Kuhnick Kuhnocker," with short "u":
Here is a snapshot of the 1970 popularity of the .458 Winchester Magnum among African Professional Hunters. Askins said that of the six PHs with the Safari South Company in Botswana in 1970, five used .458 Winchester Magnum magazine rifles. All except for John Kingsley-Heath, who had a pair of .470 NE double rifles by Holland & Holland. Askins attributed this to Kingsley-Heath being "an Englishman to the very core." Askins continued: "Lionel Palmer swore by the .458 cartridge and fired it in a BSA rifle. Walter Johnson had a pre-1964 Model 70, as did Duggie Wright."
That's ironic and not at the same time. Wally Johnson was the PH for Jack Lott in 1959 in Mozambique when the cape buffalo tossed Jack Lott. Jack got in two shots with his .458 WinMag (a soft into the guts and an FMJ-RN that went squirrely). Wally emptied his .375 H&H into the bull and then picked up Jack's .458 WinMag from the ground, finishing the bull with that. Irony: Jack Lott thought he needed more power than the .458 WinMag. Funny ha ha. Irony not: Wally Johnson traded his Winchester M-70 .375 H&H for a Winchester M-70 African .458 WinMag.
Here is a better picture of Wally Johnson, whom Col. Askins hunted with in Botswana in 1970. Yes, Wally used a .375 H&H Winchester M70 of 1938 vintage for his early years in Mozambique, but by 1970 he had converted to the .458 Winchester Magnum, after barely getting out of the bush war alive to carry on in Botswana.
Askins' first use of the .458 WinMag was in early to mid 1956 in Vietnam. His family friend, John Olin, probably gave him that rifle for field testing. It was the first-year production model with three-leaf express sight, 3/32" silver bead, and only one cross bolt. Askins opined that a peep and patridge would be needed to adapt the African to Montagnard conditions, as well as a southpaw version for lefties, of course !
Askins brought 13 firearms and 2600 rounds of ammo for his offduty recreational pursuits in Vietnam. That also included one of the first production of .44 RemMag S&W M29 revolvers. Dirty Harry's handgun and counter-sniper rifle (.458 WinMag) were both field tested early on by Col. Askins, in 1956. What a great year it was, except for the Vietnam part ! Askins might be correct on his claim of being first to kill a man with the .44 RM. It was a Viet Minh sniper using a MAS 49 (7.5x54mm) left by the French, taking pot shots at traffic on a road below a bluff. Askins sneaked up on him, up a trail to the bluffs where he perched, "3-4 steps from the little bastard. I saw the wild look in his eyes and he glanced around fearfully, meanwhile swinging the French 7.5mm off his shoulder." Another successful handgun hunt.
Askins' first trip to Africa was in 1958, to Kenya, where he met up with his Vietnam acquaintance and hunting instigator from the CIA, Allen Pope, grandson of Harry Pope. Allen brought his wife Yvonne along and she had appendicitis before the end of the safari.
They were booked for 35 days with the safari firm White Hunters "the leading outfitters in Kenya" in 1958. Tony Dyer was 28 years old, schoolmate of Harry Selby. Dyer and another PH, Australian Bill Jenvey guided the soiree. Askins said Dyer and Jenvey were both "bangup good" hunters.
By this time, Askins had his African M70 from Vietnam converted to port-sided bolt handle. Askins killed 2 cape buffalo, an 80-pounder elephant bull, and a rhino with a "fairly decent horn" with the .458 WinMag. No dramas. That was the only rhino Askins ever shot. His first cape buffalo was the biggest-horned of a claimed 76 buffalo Askins eventually bagged, the next biggest of those being 47 inches. Askins took 35 head in 35 days, the remainder included a leopard and eland but no lion. Lesser game fell to a .243 WCF Model 88 lever action, and the rest was bagged well with a prototype .338 WinMag M70 with bolt converted to left hand also, by Bob West, gunsmith.
Askins mistakenly wrote that he had taken the first cape bufflao in Africa bagged with a .458 WinMag. It was a whopper, over 50 inches spread of horns. But the first cape buffalo had fallen to Richard C. Heck two years earlier, in 1956, in Kenya also. The first game to fall in Africa to the .458 WinMag was a Rhino in Kenya, 1956. Dr. Stacy was Richard C. Heck's partner, and borrowed the .458 WinMag to shoot the Rhino. See 11th Edition GUN DIGEST of 1957.
Askins may have been responsible for the first gaur (pronounced "goor" like "spoor" not "gower") taken with the .458 WinMag. But it was by loaning his .458 WinMag to a USA General hunting buddy, Gen. Bergquist, his commander in Vietnam. As with Richard C. Heck and Doc Stacy and the rhino in 1956 Kenya, so it was with Col. Askins and "The General" and the gaur in 1956 Vietnam. The gaur was over 3000 pounds, sort of like a bison from India, it has been said, largest of the bovids. From UNREPENTANT SINNER THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF COLONEL CHARLES ASKINS:
George Parker was a WWII combat buddy of Col. Askins. Here in 1956, he had just returned from a Safari in Kenya with Tony Dyer's outfit, no doubt encouraging Askins to go there too, which he began planning for the 1958 safari with Allen Pope. Parker got the month-long, elephant-back shikar treatment while visiting Askins and Ngo Van Chi. Askins came and went on that for 5 or 6 days at a time, whenever he could tear himself away from work.
On page 266 of his memoir, Col. Askins wrote this, about his return from his 1958 Kenya Safari:
"Once returned to New York I went directly to the Winchester office which in those days was in New York City. It has long since been closed out but it was thriving in those days.
"The company had their design engineers on hand. These were the buckos who had designed both the .458 and .338. I gave them a careful report on the performance of both cartridges. Both of course had performed brilliantly. Especially the .338 with which, quite naturally, I had shot a great deal of my game. The .458 I had reserved for the elephant, the rhino and two buffalo. I was enthusiastic about the loading. Most especially the .338.
"The design people listened eagerly and then one of them said, 'I think we'd better take the belt off the .338. I don't believe the shooters are going to go for that.'
"I vehemently defended the belt. 'Look, man,' I told this longhair, 'that belt has always been accepted as an indication of more power. A sort of super cartridge, a round with more oomph, more thump. Leave that belt alone. This round needs to be set apart as something very special.' I thought it was significant when the .338 was finally sprung on an all unsuspecting shooting public the belt was still there."
I have always loved Askins book. Raw and real. He makes no excuses for his actions. He titled it correctly I think. He did learn not to snipe across the river from the same position for consecutive days...
SAAMI allows the .338 Winchester Magnum to have a MAP of 64,000 PSI. The .416 RemMag has a SAAMI MAP of 65,000 PSI. The .458 WinMag has a SAAMI MAP of only 60,000 PSI. The .458 Lott has a SAAMI MAP of 62,500 PSI.
The standard SAAMI .458 WinMag is only 50 fps behind the SAAMI .458 Lott, when both are kept on their respective SAAMI leashes. Easy to see how the .458 WM+ "unleashed" is more powerful than the SAAMI .458 Lott.
I have always loved Askins book. Raw and real. He makes no excuses for his actions. He titled it correctly I think. He did learn not to snipe across the river from the same position for consecutive days...
The Viet Minh sniper that fell to the .44 did not learn that lesson in time to save his bacon.
A review of how versatile a standard SAAMI .458 WinMag can be with creative handloading.
The pointy bullet as long as 3.540" COL and the big-meplat FN as long as 3.500" COL can be loaded off the top of the box, chambered and ejected even if not fired:
Here is an old 400-gr TSX loaded to 3.540" COL, cartridge is in the bolt face above, push bolt forward to chamber, and below the bolt is being retracted and cartridge is starting to eject:
The single-loaded cartridge swings free:
All the ammo in the stock carrier will work through the magazine, 300-grainer to 500-grainers here, but bullets from 250-grainer to 600-grainer are practical:
Save the longer COL .458 WM+ loads for putting the SAAMI .458 Lott in its place.
I had sent this to you in a PM a little bit ago. But, for The Mission here it is again
Ron can I steal your Charles Askins post? The one containing the information on Lott’s buffalo and Johnson buying a 458 Winchester. I want to use it in a AfricanHunting.com, 458 discussion. By the way, I picked up another 458 Winchester last week. A New Haven Classic Super Express, 22” barrel. Outstanding condition. I had a Super Express in 375 H&H years ago, we never bonded, sold it to a friend. But, I always thought the Super Express with the 22” barrel was my idea of what a 458 should be. I never managed to acquire one, until now.
Sir Larry, Please do take whatever you want to fling at the wall over there, and give us a link so we may spectate. I am guessing that your "Sir Name" for Knighthood is Sir Larry ? You are the 21rst Knight of the .458 Winchester Brotherhood, unless you refuse this great honor.
Congratulations on the Winchester M70 Classic Super Express .458 Winchester Magnum. You are blessed.
Old Fugly the .458 Lott fouling of a MkX Whitworth .458 WinMag may be ready come Friday. I am learning to live with it by doing it as an imitation of Phil Shoemaker's Old Ugly the .458 WinMag. Will use it for very light bullets and birdshot loads where the longer brass is a help. But wait ! Actually Old Fugly is better than a SAAMI .458 Lott, because it was made from a .458 WinMag rechambered for 2.8" brass. Its chamber is exactly like the .458 Lott wildcat that Jack built, with .458 WinMag throat. Distance from bolt face to end of leade is same as on a SAAMI .458 WinMag.
And now, I am wondering if I can screw the barrel off of a .458 B&M short action SC-made M70 (for .300 WSM) and screw it onto the action of a .338 WinMag SC-made M70 All Weather ? My .458 B&M barrel twist is 1:10" and has a short 19.75" length ! The throat might be extended to full SAAMI .458 WM. Thus the .458 B&M+ might be born: Long COL for it is 3.340" or maybe 3.395". Might equal the longer-barreled .458 WM+ and do it with a short barrel. When I pick up Old Fugly, I will show the .458 B&M M70 and the .338 WinMag M70 to GUNSMITH. See if he can do it ... Will just have to add a "+" stamp to the barrel engraving: .458 B&M+ That is short for ".458 B&M + Winchester Magnum Throat."
And now, I am wondering if I can screw the barrel off of a .458 B&M short action SC-made M70 (for .300 WSM) and screw it onto the action of a .338 WinMag SC-made M70 All Weather ? My .458 B&M barrel twist is 1:10" and has a short 19.75" length ! The throat might be extended to full SAAMI .458 WM. Thus the .458 B&M+ might be born: Long COL for it is 3.340" or maybe 3.395". Might equal the longer-barreled .458 WM+ and do it with a short barrel. When I pick up Old Fugly, I will show the .458 B&M M70 and the .338 WinMag M70 to GUNSMITH. See if he can do it ... Will just have to add a "+" stamp to the barrel engraving: .458 B&M+ That is short for ".458 B&M + Winchester Magnum Throat."
Thank you Sir Ron. The membership to the brotherhood is most gratefully accepted!!!.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Larry, Please do take whatever you want to fling at the wall over there, and give us a link so we may spectate. I am guessing that your "Sir Name" for Knighthood is Sir Larry ? You are the 21rst Knight of the .458 Winchester Brotherhood, unless you refuse this great honor.
Congratulations on the Winchester M70 Classic Super Express .458 Winchester Magnum. You are blessed.
On page 266 of his memoir, Col. Askins wrote this, about his return from his 1958 Kenya Safari:
"Once returned to New York I went directly to the Winchester office which in those days was in New York City. It has long since been closed out but it was thriving in those days.
"The company had their design engineers on hand. These were the buckos who had designed both the .458 and .338. I gave them a careful report on the performance of both cartridges. Both of course had performed brilliantly. Especially the .338 with which, quite naturally, I had shot a great deal of my game. The .458 I had reserved for the elephant, the rhino and two buffalo. I was enthusiastic about the loading. Most especially the .338.
"The design people listened eagerly and then one of them said, 'I think we'd better take the belt off the .338. I don't believe the shooters are going to go for that.'
"I vehemently defended the belt. 'Look, man,' I told this longhair, 'that belt has always been accepted as an indication of more power. A sort of super cartridge, a round with more oomph, more thump. Leave that belt alone. This round needs to be set apart as something very special.' I thought it was significant when the .338 was finally sprung on an all unsuspecting shooting public the belt was still there."
That is good stuff buddy. The old 338 Win is among the top of my favorites. Me and an old P64 338 have gotten along on many a good adventure. It’s is the chips are down rifle.
SAAMI allows the .338 Winchester Magnum to have a MAP of 64,000 PSI. The .416 RemMag has a SAAMI MAP of 65,000 PSI. The .458 WinMag has a SAAMI MAP of only 60,000 PSI. The .458 Lott has a SAAMI MAP of 62,500 PSI.
The standard SAAMI .458 WinMag is only 50 fps behind the SAAMI .458 Lott, when both are kept on their respective SAAMI leashes. Easy to see how the .458 WM+ "unleashed" is more powerful than the SAAMI .458 Lott.
CZ550 explained this to me years ago.
Before my first Zambezi safari I obtained a .458 Winchester and asked about handloads on the 24HCF Africa site. Several of the replies recommended I should immediately get a gunsmith to ream it out to .458 Lott. Instead I loaded the .458 with AA2230 to 2250 fps with North Fork 450 grain flat nosed solids and 450grain TSXs. With this I killed an elephant, a buffalo, and a hippo. good to see that North forks are now available again.
IMHO Jack Lott was an idiot. He claimed he needed to invent the Lott because he had failed to kill a buffalo with 14 shots (I believe it was) from a .458 Winchester. That was just lousy shooting in my opinion. Yet a whole bunch of hunters became convinced that only the Lott was powerful enough for dangerous game. Good salesman, that Jack.
I don't understand why Winchester reduced the velocity of its factory loads. Powder clumping due to compressed loads and heat? I think that's a joke. I used to shoot matches at Camp Perry. All loads were compressed. And it's at least as hot at Camp Perry in August as it is in Africa during the hunting months. After all we don't use cordite any more, and the .458 Winchester never did.
Another red herring (in my opinion) was all the badmouthing of push feed. My rifle was push feed. Posters claimed it would not cycle upside down (false) and it was bad because of Remington's 700 extractor (irrelevant). It never occurred to these guys that every military rifle designed in the last 120 years has been push feed.
The recent posts about 400 grain bullets are interesting. I experimented a lot with 350 grain TSXs. I could easily get 2750 fps. The computer claimed it hit with 3000 foot pounds of energy, at 300 yards. A 30-06 on steroids. The only problem was it shot about 6" lower at 100 yards than the heavier 450 grain bullets. This was because (I think) that the 450s stayed in the barrel longer and thus the muzzle rose higher. I didn't take any 350s to Africa because I didn't want to be changing elevation all the time. But I think it would be a danged fine load for elk or moose.
... Before my first Zambezi safari I obtained a .458 Winchester and asked about handloads on the 24HCF Africa site. Several of the replies recommended I should immediately get a gunsmith to ream it out to .458 Lott. Instead I loaded the .458 with AA2230 to 2250 fps with North Fork 450 grain flat nosed solids and 450grain TSXs. With this I killed an elephant, a buffalo, and a hippo. good to see that North forks are now available again. ...
Well done Sir Indy. Or would you prefer a different Sir Name, as Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood, well earned. Buy a buy a donkey, as Elvis would say in Afrikaans, as he picked up his order to go at the burger shack in Botswana.
Sir Charles and Sir Scotty, Buy a donkey to you both. Please do tell of the bullets used in your .338 WinMags. Favorite handloads ? If the younger brother of the .458 WinMag was good enough for Col. Askins, it is good enough for me. I will think twice before screwing off a .338 WinMag barrel to replace it with a .458 B&M+ barrel.
Speaking of Col. Askins, he was not a West Pointer. He joked about existence of a WPPA, a West Point Protective Association. They came to the aid of West Pointers whenever he tried to relieve them of their commands due to incompetence. I think General Austin is enjoying the WPPA currently, running a con game for Joke Biden, Joke Milley and Joke McKenzie.
Sir John, You might find some of this interesting:
A .458" diameter right cylinder displaces 41.66 grains of water for each one inch of its height/length/seating depth. Correcting the 2.4891" long R-P brass to 2.5000" length makes the R-P .458 WinMag brass have 95.3 grains gross water. The Quality Cartridge .458 B&M brass was measured at the same sitting with same technique. It is virtually identical in case capacity at 95.0 grains H2O gross, only 0.3 grains smaller, for these compared lots of once-fired, not-resized brass.
The short and light CEB brass bullets are good in sub 3.000" COL .458 B&M, but would be plumb peculiar in a .458 B&M+.
The short COL .458 B&M with short throat, may be unleashed in a 3.4" magazine length and a .458 WM throat.
Longer COLs can be worked through the magazine as well as single loaded like with a SAAMI .458 WM.
The North Fork 450-gr SP works in either .458 B&M or .458 B&M+.
The TSX bullets of 450-gr and 500-gr weight have ogives too long to fit inside of 3.000" COL. The 350-gr TSX works well in the .458 B&M due to its lesser nose/ogive projection.
I do not have exact specs on the .458 B&M. They were proprietary secrets last time I checked. But this drawing came out close to the actual measured brass gross H20, for R-P and Quality Cartridge brass averaging about 2.240" in length. The R-P .458 WM brass lot measured in the post preceding this about identical, and a fraction of a grain bigger if allowed to grow to 2.500", always safe in a SAAMI .458 WM. Both are about 95 grains H20 gross, once-fired and not resized.
BTW, Old Fugly the .458 Lott has her new safety, still needs a rustoleum camo job, a flashlight hanger Picatinny, and some fluorescent white tape on the barrel and scope for night sight use.
The Lottite Protective Association (LPA) is active over at africahuntingdotcom. Mentioning 24hrcampfiredotcom over there will get you censored.
I looked because Sir Larry copied and pasted there, and this has clarified the Walter Johnson identified by Col. Askins on the 1970 Botswana safari. Must have been Wally Johnson, Sr.'s son Walter Johnson, Jr.
Someone over there said: "Hopefully it's not that guy that thanks you for contributing to the mission. He deserves a perpetual swift kick in the pants until Jesus returns."
I replied there: "Sir, I resemble that remark. However The Mission at a certain Arab-owned website became The Crusade at **NOT**PERMITTED**. Now, the war is over. The .458 Winchester Magnum is truly victorious. The WinMag won. Now we celebrate The Brotherhood of the .458 Winchester Magnum. Honorary Knighthood in this Brotherhood is part of that celebration.
And here is what I said about the confusion over Wally, Sr. versus Walter, Jr.: **************************************************************************************** Nowhere in the Capstick book does Wally deny ever owning a .458 Winchester Magnum.
On page 57 he did say this, circa 1987-1988, when he was 75 years of age:
"I still consider and always will consider the .375 Holland & Holland Magnum as 'the only gun.' In fact, I shot many hundreds of buffalo with the 9.3mm Mauser to save .375 ammo. I had no problems, but I would have preferred the .375 if I could have spared the ammo."
The book mentions Walter Junior being a PH in Botswana about 1970, so about age 30 y.o., before Senior pitched up there maybe. The book (Wally) said Walter Junior was using his own .458 to stop charging hippos, etc., page 112.
So Askins said it was "Walter Johnson" with the M70 African .458 Winchester Magnum during the 1970 safari in Botswana. Must have been Wally's son, most likely was. Askins can be sketchy. But I cannot find Wally denying ever owning a .458 WinMag in his recountings within the Capstick book.
There is a passage about Wally guiding two Americans with their wives in Mozambique, no year specified, probably pre-1970 from the context. One of Wally's trackers was carrying "a spare.458 Winchester Magnum caliber and I knew it was stoked with solid 500-grain bullets." So said Wally. One of the clients wounded a cape buffalo. PH Wally and the two clients followed it. It charged from the "long grass" at 20 yards and Wally yelled for all to fire. The clients shot once each then one's magazine opened and dumped and the other's rifle "had a lock-tight jam!" Wally got off 3 shots before the buffalo hit him, all good shots, and he had a misfire/dud for a fourth shot with muzzle pressed into the buffalo's face, later attributed to dirty rifle, and old ammo, worked fine after cleaning thoroughly and with fresh lot of ammo. No calibers specified for any rifles except the spare .458. Wally was probably carrying his .375 H&H, tracker carried Wally's "spare .458" ? Client Gerry Knight ("... to whom I owe my life" said Wally) took the spare .458 and shot the buffalo off of Wally. Pp. 169-173.
One more bit from over there: ********************************** When starting out, youngster Wally Senior hunted lion with his trusty .30-30 WCF lever action, elephant with a .30-'06 Springfield and upwards in caliber. From page 82 of the Capstick book of interviews with Wally:
"... I only had a .30-'06. Guns were hard to get and I was really broke. Later I was able to buy a Brennecke 11.2 X 72mm rifle, along with fifty cartridges. But it was such a weird caliberfor Mozambique, although a good one, that when I was out of ammo I was out of business."
I think Wally was kissing up to Capstick's penchant for the .375 H&H throughout that book. I do not think he had any disdain for the .458 Winchester Magnum. If guns and ammo were so hard to get, he would most likely have grabbed any .458 WinMag that came along, to have as a "spare" to be carried by his tracker while he carried his beloved .375 H&H M70 Winchester.
No, Wally did not literally trade in his .375 H&H for a .458 WinMag. But the fact that his favorite rifle survived to be offered for sale by his family after his death, that must mean that it had been sent ahead with his son Walter to Botswana, during the Mozambican bush war of Marxist aggression. When Wally finally got out of Mozambique he lost everything but the clothes on his back and a few bills in his wallet. The cache of guns and ammo he had buried under a bush in his yard were dug up by the thugs. The gold bars hidden in the butter pats in his home freezer were consumed at a forced lunch for the thugs too.
Wally used Jack Lott's .458 WinMag to save Jack Lott from a buffalo goring in 1959. Client Gerry Knight used Wally's "spare .458" to save Wally from a buffalo goring a few years later in Mozambique. Ironic. I bet Wally Johnson had at least a little fondness for the .458 WinMag, even if he professed to love the .375 H&H more.
... Before my first Zambezi safari I obtained a .458 Winchester and asked about handloads on the 24HCF Africa site. Several of the replies recommended I should immediately get a gunsmith to ream it out to .458 Lott. Instead I loaded the .458 with AA2230 to 2250 fps with North Fork 450 grain flat nosed solids and 450grain TSXs. With this I killed an elephant, a buffalo, and a hippo. good to see that North forks are now available again. ...
Well done Sir Indy. Or would you prefer a different Sir Name, as Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood, well earned. Buy a buy a donkey, as Elvis would say in Afrikaans, as he picked up his order to go at the burger shack in Botswana.
Sir Indy, You have chair # 22 at the Square Table. Congratulations. Keep up the good work. Doing good has no end.
My concluding words at the other forum today, where it will fall on deaf eyes most likely: **************************************************************************************************************************************** Nowadays, If one can handload, one can get within 50 fps of the .458 Lott with 500-grainers, and do it at lower pressure (60,000 psi instead of 62,500 psi) and with COL of 3.340" instead of 3.600". It is all about throat. If one uses same higher pressure and same longer COL as the .458 Lott, with bullets long enough to do that in the .458 WinMag, one can outperform the SAAMI .458 Lott (2.8" case) with the non-SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum (2.5" case). It is all in the throat. Physics cannot be denied.
The .458 Lott Protective Association is all about commercialism. I recommend reaming your SAAMI .458 Lott with a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer to correct the throat. Then it will be just like the .458 Lott that Jack Built. Then it will be on par with the .458 Winchester Magnum. Any load safe in the .458 WinMag will then be safe in your .458Lott like Jack Built.
If the short-and-tight-throated SAAMI .458 Lott at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi will do 2300 fps with a 500-grainer, then the long-leade-zero-parallel-sided-free-bore-throated SAAMI .458 WinMag at 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi will do 2250 fps with same 500-grainer. Do I hear an "amen?" ******************************************************************************************************************************************* Fairly humorless bunch over there.
Old Fugly the .458 Lott is coming along nicely. Just now I have been hogging out the tip of the barrel channel to insert a piece of picatinny rail for flashlight mounting beneath barrel like Phil Shoemaker did on his Old Ugly .458 WinMag. Old Fugly is short for: Old "Fouled-by-rechambering-to-458-Lott" Ugly. The "before" picture of the only .458 Lott rifle I own:
NECG 3-pos safety, flashlight Picatinny, and Krylon&Rustoleum spray paint camo pending, photographs to follow when the paint is dry and epoxy hardened. The white flourescent tape used on barrel and scope for night sight will wait until the paint is aged a little. I expect to be able to safely fire my .458 WM+ loads in this .458 Lott Like Jack Built. It has original .458 WM throat length from breach to end of throat leade. Same powder charge and same COL means same degree of powder compression in the .458 Lott as in the .458 WM+ of course !
Above is with 2.5X20mm Leupold rotated 90* for more open loading port. Below is with 2.5-8X36mm Leupold in standard orientation.
The flashlight mount and a 3-pos safety completed Old Fugly.
This was the "Shoemaker ShineMaker Picatinny" Flashlight Mount under construction:
Now for a good laugh, the firing-pin-blocking safety (3-pos. from NECG) was spot blued with a torch and cold blue, so it looks like an ugly attempt at color-case-hardening, and the trigger-block side safety (2-pos.) was left in place. TWO SAFETIES !! That ought to make a Lottite feel safe from himself, a great selling point, a lott of sales appeal there.
Buy a donkey for those flowers. Old Fugly shares with Old Ugly the same Whitworth MkX .458 WinMag barreled action and a Brown Precision fiberglass stock blank.
Phil Shoemaker aka 458Win could make hay here for sure. Whether he likes it or not he is hereby beknighted. Sir Phil is a Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood. He has a chair at the Square Table, where we celebrate in peace, with the .458 WinMag deniers long since defeated. All the Lottites have tucked tail and fled.
Old Fugly is a lesson. There was no need to re-chamber her from .458 WinMag to .458 Lott. She is a .458 Lott Like Jack Built. As such, she can only equal a SAAMI .458 WinMag loaded like a .458 WM+. Beats a SAAMI .458 Lott, but will handle rat loads and birdshot loads like a SAAMI .458 Lott, the only possible advantage to the 2.8" brass.
A dissection of Old Fugly would show many desirable features, comparable to Old Ugly, and also some features not so desirable, i.e., those required to convert her to a .458 Lott ! The Old Ugly .458 WinMag of Phil Shoemaker will do all quite handily.
I was not able to get the 400 North Fork softs. But,
I did get some of the 350 grain Cup Point expanding solids. Which may work out fine, hopefully. I will use one bullet for my use in Alaska. I am planning to use these in 45-70 lever rifles and bolt rifles in 458 Winchester and Lott. The use is 100 yards or so maximum and most probably well under that distance. For any animal that is legal while I have one of these rifles with me.
If it groups well and feeds well in these rifles, it should be a workable compromise.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
The North Forks from Sweden have arrived at www.Reloadinginternational.com so I finally have some .458-cal/ 400-gr North Fork softs on the way for another 400-grainer shoot-off.
I will not have a loose and bent Ruger No. 1 forend screw for the next outing, yee hah.
Very nice ! Please post an image of your new bullet and measure the overall length of the bullet, as knightly duty for the brotherhood. Buy a donkey in advance. Will compare to old images from the web. I never got any 350-gr North Forks of any type for the .45-bore. Should be a heckuva useful bullet.
Maybe the above link will show a pretty good amateur video comparing the .45-70 Gov't. with 325-gr Hornady FTX (rubber-tipped cup&core) from a 16.5" barreled Marlin, probably a Hornady factory load. to the long-barreled .300 WinMag with 150-gr and 180-gr W-W factory loads (180-gr soft point cup&cores). Impact media: Bone-in, skin-on pork shoulders, water jugs, and steel gongs.
Tester's SWAG, as expected, was that the .45-70 wins within 200 yards, .300 WinMag wins beyond 200 yards.
I conclude that the .458 WinMag beats all.
The .45-70 versus 16-pound bowling ball at Kentucky Ballistics popped up next:
305-grain brass Lehigh Defense Superpenetrator at +2300 fps from a Henry lever action. Underwood Ammo claims 2350 fps, 3740 ft-lbs KE, with 305-grain .45-70 Gov't +P, a commercial "factory load." Ho ho ho.
Does your Swedish 350-gr CPS looks like the old ones from Wyoming ? First picture is from an old MidwayUSA ad where they no longer stock the bullet.
The elephant leg test (below) is a tough test medium, into bottom of feet and into leg bones and other tough tissues, longitudinally up the leg. Similar results to Doc M's test at MIB Laboratories (above). BTW, the elephant legs are on dead elephants. Live ones won't stay still for the testing.
With the 350-gr TSX loaded to 3.440" COL in the .458 WM+, following in Sir Bob's footsteps, I used 81.0 grains of H4198 in Hornady brass with F215 primer to get 2806 fps MV from a 25"-long Shilen barrel on a CZ 550 Magnum named Bobbarrella. That was 2788 fps at 5 yards, correcting for BC = 0.271. 3 bullet holes touching at 50 yards.
Prior to that, 72.0 grains of H4198 with 350-gr Hornady RNSN at COL of 3.165" (W-W brass, F215 primer) gave 2526 fps MV from a 24-7/8"-long CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 named Chimera WinCZechster.
I bet the 350-grain CPS would do very well at 2500 to 2800 fps in a .458 WM. Probably as accurate as any 350-grain bullet to be found.
My Bo Peep is on a 1987 vintage .375 Wby MkX, my Oldest Fugly, stocked myself with Brown Precision blank, painted with black Krylon, over bare fiberglass and roughed up epoxy at grip panels only. Moving Bo Peep from the aluminum Weaver base on Oldest Fugly to the steel Weaver base on Old Fugly, might be considered to be for The Good. But there is some of The Bad about it. I will have to melt the epoxy off the rear base to remove those 8x40 screws and get the parts to the Machinist Gunsmith. Ah well, whatever it takes for The Fugly.
Might as well sand off a little fiberglass to clear the right rear bridge receiver sight base holes, and rob a Lyman off another MkX. More latitude for sight adjustment. And fuglier too !
A screw could also be put into the stock to block the side safety from movement rearward to safe. A little more fugly. Fugly is in the details.
A screw through the bottom rear of the floor plate could also be put in to lock the floorplate, secure as Fort Knox. It has never popped open in recoil, but fugly is as fugly does the details.
I really do appreciate the Shoemaker Shinemaker Picatinny. It will come in handy if a Kodiak bear presses his nose to my tent on a moonless night, again.
A Mauser .375 H&H drop magazine hanging out below the current stock would be the crowning touch. The fuglier the better ! Phil Shoemaker had to add about a pound of lead to his Brown Precision stock to get his 21"-barreled rifle weight up to 9 pounds, IIRC. I might not need to add lead. I really don't want to chop my 23.6" barrel down to 21". That might make it cuter, not fuglier.
Fugly is in the eye of the beholder. I think anybody that be-holding that rifle is well armed for anything. Thanks to Phil for leading the way to function over everything and thanks to Sir Ron for doing all of this work for all our benefits.
Buy a donkey for the flowers you send to Old Fugly and to Sir Phil's Old Ugly.
Here is an interesting $15 torch I must try on Old Fugly, the Coast brand "Polysteel 250 Flashlight" 390 Lumens bright with a focusing white beam only, runs 4 hrs at full blast on only three AAA batteries, and survives the 100-ft drop test shown/shone in this half-minute video:
The polymer-framed Glock of flashlights. For 30 bucks you can get the Polysteel 1000, really bright at 1000 lumens, but getting a little long in the torch. Holy cow, might start fires with that !
The SureFire E2L is heavy and dim by comparison, with max output 45 lumens and runs for 14 hours on two lithium batteries (CR123A 3V). More expensive all around.
The Polysteel 250 runtimes on its 3 settings::
390 lumens for 4 hours
175 lumens for 10 hr 45 min
57 lumens for 36 hours: This too beats the SureFire.
Sir Ron, A research project for you in the archives: We have documented evidence of a 500 grain bullet from Old Ugly downing a big Alaska Moose at very extended yardage after the client had wounded it and the damage to the moose that was done by so landing of the missile. Would Footnote quite nicely the work you have done on TBI and H&H units when you find it. I don't trust my memory on the matter but know we had it in a thread in the past.
Buy a donkey for your reminder of Phil Shoemaker's 400-yard big-bull-moose whack with Old Ugly! He was backing up a client, as recalled in the 75th EDITION, 2021 GUN DIGEST. It was a field trial. Phil wrote:
"... The late Jack Carter sent me one of his first boxes of 500-gr Bonded bullets, which I promptly loaded over the same powder charge." (That refers to 70 grains of IMR-3031 used in the 21"-barreled Old Ugly: 2040 fps with 500-gr Hornady RNSN)
"That fall moose season, I had an opportunity to test one. I was sitting on a small knoll with John Nash, a moose hunting client from Oregon, one evening when an absolute massive, 74-inch bull moose stepped out of a stand of willows a half-mile away and began ambling toward us. The terrain was open tundra and there was nothing we could do but sit and wait. There was a small pond about 400 yards from us and when the bull reached it, he stopped. It was almost dark, there was no way to stalk closer, and we were afraid we would miss an opportunity of a lifetime. John was shooting a .411 KDF and thought he could make the shot. Lying prone and using my backpack for a rest, he held the cross hairs over the bull's whithers and fired. I was watching through my binoculars and the bull never moved. I saw a splash of water behind and apparently above the bull and called the shot high. He held lower and shot again and this time I saw water splash in front of the bull. His third and final shot again made a splash behind the bull, but appeared to have hit him. John then told me his remaining ammo was back in camp and asked me to take the shot. The bull appeared to have been hit and I agreed."
"With 500-grain bullets, I keep Old Ugly sighted in dead on at 100 yards. My trajectory table, while not exact, is simple, quick and easy to remember and satisfactory for the large animals I am hunting: 1-foot drop at 200 yards, 3 feet at 300 yards 6 at 400 and 12 at 500. Figuring the bull's body was a good 3-feet deep I held 4-feet high and fired. The 1,800-pound bull gave a violent shudder . We heard the bullet whack and he collapsed where he stood."
"Upon butchering, we found that two of John's bullets had struck low in the bull's chest, but failed to expand and had done very little damage. My single 500-grain Trophy Bonded bullet had taken out one rib going in, completely removed the top of the animal's heart, removed two ribs on the way out and was found under the hide on the offside. It had expanded to over an inch in diameter and considering the distance, its velocity had to have been down to somewhere around 1,100 fps. It was impressive performance."
I do not have the BC or know for sure the MV of Phil's Trophy Bonded "Bear Claw" Jack Carter original bullet.
For the 500-grain Woodleigh PPSN started off at 2150 fps MV, a similarly performing bullet for low velocity impacts:
0-yard TBPI = 2.00 H&H Units 100 yards: 1.81 H&H Units 200 yards: 1.63 H&H Units 300 yards: 1.47 H&H Units 400 yards: 1.32 H&H Units 500 yards: 1.19 H&H Units 600 yards: 1.08 H&H Units
300-gr/.375-caliber bullet at 2450 fps at whatever range has TBPI = 1.00 H&H Units.
500-gr/.458-cal bullet at 1100 fps has TBPI of 1.02 H&H Units of WHACK !
Test question to see if anyone is paying attention besides Fury01 and Riflecrank:
Which one is called "Old Ugly," the rifle or the rifleman ?
As you were. Continuing the good, bad and fugly theme, it is time to look at the underwear of Old Fugly and consider how it might be improved and possibly made even fuglier.
Her underside where opened at front of action only, she started off as a standard magnum action .458 WinMag:
Here is the cut on the front of the ejection port to allow ejection of unfired cartridges:
Front of integral box was cut off and extension welded onto it:
Welded, brazed, soldered ... my local GUNSMITH in Kentucky did that with whatever technique he preferred. That happened in the early years of this century as an attempt to do right by Old Fugly. I adopted her in 1987 from Boondock Sporting Goods in Eagle River Alaska. I have chronograph results from her as a .458 WinMag dated 1988, soon as the public range had thawed, and she was bedded in a Brown Precision blank smeared with epoxy all over. I just called her Warthog back then.
Then on a day that will live in infamy, in 1993, she had a .458 Lott wildcat reamer run into her by an Alaskan GUNSMITH. She has never been right since. She went 10 years (1993- 2003) with a short box and a long chamber, mag box carrying .458 WM, single-shot loading .458 Lott off the top of box.
Old Fugly is now like a rescue dog, a pet so fugly it is endearing. From 2003 to present she has had the welded box. I am trying to do better by her before another decade passes, surely before 2023 comes. Her current mag box is barely long enough inside to fit 3.6" COL, and then only with pointy spitzer bullet. Ideal when loaded with 400-gr spitzers and less than 3.6" COL. She can do no better than a .458 WM+ with any heavier bullet anyway, whether using 2.5" or 2.8" brass. The SAAMI .458 Lott cannot fit a lot of bullets into 3.600" COL without trimming the brass a little short, as advised in the Barnes Manual for the 450-gr and 500-gr TSX bullets.
Rest of he metalwork dates back to 1992, aside from action opening. Ruger M77 rear sight and barrel recoil lug re-do:
Thread protector for KDF brake, and a front bead protected by friction-fit hood, a hood that often vanishes with a fouling shot:
Stockwork dating to 1987-1988, the second rifle I ever "restocked" (soon after I did my Oldest Fugly .375 WbyMag in 1987). Both were done with bare fiberglass Brown Precision blanks:
There are hidden, steel allthread crossbolts behind barrel lug, action lug, and in web between magazine well and trigger well, a location otherwise known as the 'tain't of a rifle stock. 'Tain't magazine well and 'tain't trigger well. In the UK it is called the 'tween by similar derivation. Spiderman fans call it "the web between magazine and trigger."
The rear Mauser action spacer was epoxied in place to serve as a pillar. The front has no stock pillar, just the integral Mauser ferrules on receiver bottom and bottom metal.
I am thinking that a Sunny Hill M'98 Drop Depth (4+1 capacity) for .375 H&H might work on Old Fugly. That is a # 440. She was opened as scantily as possible to the front. The Sunny Hill M'98 Drop Depth for .300 WinMag (# 430) seems to have the same hind of footprint, indicating # 440 is opened to front.
# 430 will work on a Whitworth Mk X .458 WinMag that has not been opened up.
Some gleanings from the Sunny Hill Enterprises, Inc. web site:
Old Fugly might be even fuglier with a drop box hanging pregnantly below her current stock. My New Fugly .458 WinRuger wildcat (.458/.416 Ruger with .458 WM throat) on a walnut-stocked Whitworth Mk X will get a # 430. Having inside-box length of 3.470" will compensate somewhat for the max brass being 2.580" instead of 2.500". The current Mk X box allows only 2+1 capacity in magazine with the .458 WinRuger. Extra depth will allow at least 3+1, maybe 4+1.
If that fits an unopened Whitworth Mk X (M'98) as claimed by Sunny Hill, verified by telephone call to Andy, then I will go for a # 440 on Old Fugly. Trust but verify. When verified, trust until proven otherwise.
Old Fugly's locally-made long box might allow cleanup and use of a Sunny Hill # 440. Fingers crossed.
When Old Fugly was young and unfouled by the .458 Lott reamer, she was a .458 Winchester Magnum called Warthog. March 1988 chronographing at 38 degrees F just north of Anchorage, Alaska, when spring had sprung:
Hornady 500-gr RNSN crimped on factory cannelure W-W Super brass case F-215 primer IMR-3031 powder 71.0 grains 5-yard chronograph >>> 2155 fps from 23.6" barrel of 1:14" twist
BC = 0.287 would correct MV to 2169 fps
3-shot group at 100 yards was noted to be 1-1/4". That would be 1.19 MOA.
With that load I killed a moose and a ground squirrel at zero range of 100 yards.
Old Fugly will be slower by a bit with .458 WinMag loads fired in the fouled chamber's extra space for 2.8" brass. She will need more powder to equal her old results when using 2.8" brass to occupy the extra chamber "dead space." So sad. When she was young she was a speedy .458 WinMag.
Ron - if you’re considering a new mag box for your build you might want to run your ruler over one made by Recknagel. Over here they are available locally for AUD$850, which is about US$650. That includes new follower, spring, screws etc. It’s really beefed up and well made.
It does require some milling of the front feed ramp.
I ran a ballistics profile of Phil's load based on some assumptions: MV = 2040; BC = .287; atmosphere conditions: 39*F, RH @ 58%, and elevation @ 1200 ft. I don't know how close that is, but the background wasn't snow covered nor did Phil look unduly cold from severe weather conditions.
Whatever the case, he was very close in his estimates of 1100 fps impact and 6' drop from point of aim. My figures show 1183 fps impact and 76.77" drop from poi at 400 yards.
Thank you for quoting Phil in the Gun Digest 2021. I'm going to look for a copy.
About time you showed up again. Your brilliance in previous contributions, as well as this one simply must be rewarded. What is your chosen sir name ? Keep in mind that we already have a Sir Jerry and a Sir John, as well as Sir Woods who also could not go with given first name, already taken by another Knight. You can be creative if you choose, like Sir EleHunter aka member TSIBINDI.
Originally Posted by JFE
Ron - if you’re considering a new mag box for your build you might want to run your ruler over one made by Recknagel.
Will do if necessary. I like dealing with Sunny Hill if theirs can be made to work on Old Fugly. I do have a Duane Wiebe M'98 for .500 Jeffery that is 3.501" length inside the box, and it is built like a bank vault, just as the Recknagel must be:
Over here they are available locally for AUD$850, which is about US$650. That includes new follower, spring, screws etc. It’s really beefed up and well made.
It does require some milling of the front feed ramp.
Alas, Old Fugly has already had some milling on her front feed ramp. Hopefully it was minimal enough to allow cleanup to fit one of those other boxes.
Glad you made it back from vacation and got out another blog entry. Excellent discussion on bullets and ballistics as usual. Could not agree more with your take on things.
Your take on Phil's holdover table is same as mine too, after running same assumed numbers.
Here is some trivia for bullet nerds:
Early Federal factory loads with Jack Carter Original TBBC 500-gr./.458 bullets had a BC = 0.342 according to Bob Forker's first edition of AMMO & BALLISTICS (C) 2000. This may be the bullet Phil Shoemaker used when he whacked the 400-yard, 74" bull moose. Long before the 2017 6th edition the BC for that bullet became 0.284, as lately specified. I guess they changed the longer-nosed semispitzer TBBC (so well suited to the .458 WinMag) to a shorter-nosed, blunt FN/RN/SN that would fit the .458 Lott better. The .458 Lott with 2.8" brass is nose-challenged in a 3.6" magazine.
Phil's table works very well with a BC of 0.324 also. 2040 fps MV, 1.5" sight height for the 2.5X20mm Leupold, 100-yard zero 59*F, 78% RH, 400 ft altitude, 29.53 In.Hg (assumes the flat tundra and near surfaces of big Alaskan lakes, and self-servingly same altitude as my home range to boot): 100 yards 0 200 yards -9.02" ~ -1 foot 300 yards -31.34" ~ -3 feet 400 yards -70,49" ~ -6 feet
Consider the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN which maker claims has a BC of 0.340 2500 fps MV, 1.75" sight height for a 2.5-8X36mm Leupold, 200-yard zero 59*F, 78% RH, 400 ft altitude, 29.53 In.Hg: 100 yards +2.56" ~ 0 200 yards 0 300 yards -11.3" ~ -1 foot 400 yards -33.02" ~ -3 feet 500 yards -68.55" ~ -6 feet
Same drop table just moved it out an extra 100 yards. Or point and shoot out to 250 yards and only have to use my brain past 250 yards. It is -4.37" out at 250 yards, OK for a moose vital zone.
Woodleigh recommends impact velocity of 1900 fps to 2500 fps for this bullet. 250-yard velocity is 1908 fps. Poor expansion past that ? SD = 0.272 Oh well, maybe that tiny FN meplat on the PPSN would help it go straight after impact, if not much expanded.
The Old Jack Carter TBBC with BC = 0.342 would have 400-yard velocity = 1283 fps SD = 0.341 Expansion and penetration at low MV were outstanding with that bullet, as was the placement by Phil Shoemaker.
He did not mention windage, must have been the calm before sundown. TBBC Original 500-grainer at 2040 fps MV zeroed at 100 yards might have 22.07" of drift at 400 yards with a 10-mph crosswind, ~2 feet. Woodleigh PPSN 400-grainer at 2500 fps MV zeroed at 200 yards might have 11.13" of drift at 400 yards with a 10-mph crosswind, ~1 foot.
I’m not sure I’m Knight material but thanks for the thought and offer.
Is there a Sir Joe?
Regarding your bottom metal, when the Serbs open up standard length Whitworths, Zastavas etc to make 375 H&H models, they do a similar mod to your modified bottom metal. The difference is that a thin strap of metal (thinner than the material used to modify yours) is soldered to the outside of the mag box, not the inside as yours has been modified. If I recall correctly the box is cut a little bit further back too. It’s a questionable mod but you never hear of users complain that it fails.
Rather than buy a new box if you know someone handy with a welder, I’d remove the mod at the front of your box, look for a spare box that you can cut and shut into place. This will restore the width to the front of the box. If you want to get fancy you could weld in a piece of tougher steel in the front of the box so it resists denting better.
Arise from your tap with the Bagwell, Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood, honored throughout the realm.
Here is a funny involving another Joe, Joe Smithson, custom rifle builder of a remarkable .458 WinMag. What might have happened after Phil Shoemaker used the Smithson rifle in the field:
Your observations and discussions on hunting bullets are always appreciated, even about the lesser calibers, but especially the .458-cal., keep up the good work.
Regarding your bottom metal, when the Serbs open up standard length Whitworths, Zastavas etc to make 375 H&H models, they do a similar mod to your modified bottom metal. The difference is that a thin strap of metal (thinner than the material used to modify yours) is soldered to the outside of the mag box, not the inside as yours has been modified. If I recall correctly the box is cut a little bit further back too. It’s a questionable mod but you never hear of users complain that it fails.
Gotta admit I was a bit surprised to see the "inside job" done on mine. An "outside job" would allow less crowding in the front of Old Fugly's box.
Rather than buy a new box if you know someone handy with a welder, I’d remove the mod at the front of your box, look for a spare box that you can cut and shut into place. This will restore the width to the front of the box. If you want to get fancy you could weld in a piece of tougher steel in the front of the box so it resists denting better.
Excellent. I will have a spare Whitworth box after I get the Sunny Hill # 430 for New Fugly the .458 WinRuger. Or, I can keep Old Fugly's "spitzer box" as a spare and cut on the other one to do something like this:
Or was that rear wall just filed thin to move it rearward ? Looks flimsy in the rear wall thickness, but no battering issues in rear of magazine. Bare wood sides of magazine internally survived for over a century.
Sir Ron - thanks for the knighthood. The 458 has been overlooked and under-rated for years and, thanks to people like you, it’s getting recognised for the great cartridge that it’s always been.
The rifle by Joe Smithson you showed looks like a very handy rifle.
The Brits were clever and resourceful when it came to making most out of their firearms. The magazine mods to the 404 are interesting but the web between the mag cutout and the trigger looks lit might have been a weak point, especially with the extra bolt at the back of the mag.
It sounds like you have several options to reconfigure the bottom metal for ol’ Fugly. Will be watching your mods with interest.
It sounds like you have several options to reconfigure the bottom metal for ol’ Fugly. Will be watching your mods with interest.
Sir Joe, Buy a donkey for those flowers. Will gitterdun eventually on Old Fugly. This "build" has been in the works since 1987. About 34 years, so hopefully before it becomes 35 years. Better mag box and "Bo Peep" rear sight pending ... and musn't forget fluorescent white tape on barrel and scope for use as night sight.
More fine tuning on the Shoemaker Shinemaker Picatinny:
The details from the packaging:
Has a dual strobe mode too. Tactical strobe or it will flash as an SOS. Will either induce seizures or disorient and then signal for help.
The local Rural King store had a 110-lumen flashlight, with a laser, for $39.99. Had to try it. Used the Burris XTR SIGNATURE ring with inserts for "customizable cant" from 5 MOA to 40 MOA. Used a single 1"-diameter ring (with inserts) with height of 1.00" from Picatinny flat to center of ring. But used only one 0-MOA insert on ring top, and none on ring bottom. Thus an aluminum flashlight body of about 1.065" to 1.070" diameter was trapped solidly by ring halves. Rotating the flashlight so that the offset laser beam is closest to in-line with barrel: Voila ! Zeroed to cross hairs of 2.5X Leupold at 10 feet ! Laser beam is only a foot high at 25 yards ! Close enough for use inside my tent on a moonless night on Kodiak Island !
Packaging details:
I won't be messing with those Burris XTR Signature inserts to try to zero the laser at longer range. I got lucky enough there for use inside a tent. Will leave good enough alone. But I do have one ring left over that I would like to try on another 1"-tubed flashlight, maybe that 1000-lumen torch.
That barrel clamp is meant to work on a tubular shotgun magazine or barrel with minimal taper. Not so good on a skinnier rifle barrel with taper. Never fear, the Shoemaker Shinemaker is here.
No deer with muzzleloader for me quite yet this year, maybe later. But it was inspirational recreational invigorational. Rained first morning and in the 41*F. Cool Kentucky rain. Sunny and 39*F next morning. Fall has arrived, finally, but all the leaves are still green and too many!
If this PH had been carrying a 4-or-more-shooter .458 WM when the buffalo charged, instead of his two-shooter double rifle, it might be easier on the camp staff who have to do his laundry:
I will not judge! Maybe he had a spicy food/beer combo the day before. Maybe he had a Cape Buffalo or lion charge him? You clean your shorts and move on
If a lion charged me I would probably crap my pants too.
Moving on to the next epiphany:
You do not need to shorten the bridge at rear of M70 Classic from Connecticut or FN to turn the .30-06-length donor action into a 3.6"-COL-accepting action. All you have to do is unblock the rear of magazine and shorten the ejector-bolt-stop. See discussion here:
This sort of rear bridge (M70 .270 WCF to .338 WinMag action) ...
... works as well as this sort of rear bridge (M70 .375 H&H to .458 WinMag) ...
... at ejecting 3.6" COL , unfired cartridges from a 3.6" mag box with proper fit of ejector-bolt-stop.
So why bother lengthening magazine and refitting ejector on the Super Grade .458 WinMag to turn it into a .458 WM+ for 3.6" COL? The .30-06 actions will do that by adding a bolt face job to the conversion, and they are easier to come by and available in stainless.
No need to re-bore my M70 Classic stainless .375 WbyMag. No need to muck with my M70 Super Grade .458 WinMag nor Alaskan .375 H&H. Not even any need to rebarrel the M70 Extreme Weather .338 WinMag.
Have spare .30-06 will convert to .458 WM+.
Another advantage to the longer rear bridge, besides just looking beefier and stronger: Less rain can get into the action.
The ones from FN/SC/Portugal have a longer extractor and only two screws in one-piece bottom, and a funky new trigger. Oh well, nothing is ever perfect.
And the nearly Free education goes forward at the 458WM University. A Proud and Privileged member of the Ivory League. The Cost of Attendance requires mandatory thought, reason and occasional contribution of relevant content based on the historical use of the English language and meaning of the words therein.
I finally got a chance yesterday to chronograph the Woodleigh Hydro's again in my Zastava M70 with 24" barrel.
Originally I was after a velocity of around 2200fps so I started with 75gn of BM2 and got a velocity of 2318fps. There was no excessive pressure signs but then out of curiosity I then dropped to 74gn and got the same velocity. I then lowered the charge to 73gn and finally got a chance to chronograph them.
With 73gn I got a velocity of 2287fps for a healthy 5227 ft/lb of energy.
l will leave it at this powder charge as velocity is nearly the same as the 75gn charge - and as a bonus it is the same powder charge as I use with the 550gn Woodleigh, my other load I use in this rifle.
I'm very happy with how this experiment has panned out - an easy 2280fps with a 450gn projectile has made this a successful venture.
No doubt an excellent load, buy a donkey for the data point. Benchmark is my replacement for IMR-3031 (grain-for-grain usually), the old benchmark for the .458 Win.
IIRC Michael McCourry showed that the CEB 450-gr/.458 brass FN with BBW nose profile penetrated a wee bit better than the 450-gr/.458 Woodleigh HYDRO in his artificial media (wet pack). Both did very well, both were about 2250 fps (+/-), from a .458 B&M, IIRC.
Richard Harlan reported excellent resuts on elephant with the SAAMI .458 WM and 450-gr solids at 2300 fps. That would be with the discontinued Barnes Banded Solids, brass FN.
My top load with the CEB 450-gr/.458 Safari Solid (brass BBW-FN) was with COL = 3.360" and 77.0 gr of AA-2230, Hornady .458 WM brass, F-215 primer 24-7/8" CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action: 2365 fps, corrected to MV (2343 fps 5-yard and BC = only 0.190). That is a mildly compressed charge.
Your HYDRO load at 2287 fps, if for 5 yards velocity, ought to get a similar correction to MV of about +22 fps, so about 2309 fps MV.
OK, in stainless, maybe it should be called the Winchester M70 ALASKAN .458 WM+, instead of the Winchester M70 AFRICAN .458 WinMag. I will get to it soon as the .500 Jeffery cast-bullet shooter is out of the Gunsmith's Spa for Wayward Rifles, Lord willing and the creeks don't rise, as in good health continues for the Gunsmith. Cheers ! To his health !
Meantime I can do some more work on Old Fugly the .458 Lott myself, as well as New Fugly the .458 WinRuger. Yes, that sorry .458 WinMag Whitworth that had rings in her chamber from a chattering factory reamer. What a mess ! Gunsmith had to run a .416 Ruger reamer into her to clean it up. Sort of like a D&C abortion. I stupidly re-chambered Old Fugly the .458 WinMag to .458 Lott on purpose ! I was still wet behind the ears when I did that, a green horn. The New Fugly Whitworth got rechambered as a salvage job, not my fault. Here she is:
Above, the DGS is in a case that has not been fire-formed, the GSC HV is in a once-fired and resized case. Below, both pieces of brass after fire-forming, no signs of chamber rings:
With these two sets of bottom metals I hope to get both Old Fugly and New Fugly squared away.
Latest idea is to fix New Fugly by cutting away the sidewalls of the Whitworth mag box. Shades of what W. J. Jeffery did to the M98 for the original Model 1905 404 Jeffery. That will make her 3+1 in (ugh) .458 WinRuger.
Then I cut off the front wall of the Sunny Hill mag box, and glue a steel plate to the front of the magazine well of stock. More shades of W. J. Jeffery ! That will make Old Fugly 4+1 in (ugh) .458 Lott.
The drop box will hang below Old Fugly's belly, accentuating the fugliness of the old girl.
Compared to the Wiebe front wall, the Sunny Hill front wall will not be missed after amputation. And nothing is quite as good as a .458 Winchester Magnum whether SAAMI restricted or unchained as a .458 WM+.
Hi Ron, as a long term fan of Old Ugly (are there any other rifles with such a loyal fan club?) I’ve really been enjoying your posts, Ive got a 9.3x62 that I jokingly call little ugly, re the drop mag, you could bubba up the gap with Bondo or other body filler and paint over it, would still be plenty ugly.
Excellent idea ! Why didn't I think of that myself ?!
Being the "Doyen of Devcon&J-B-Weld External Stock Finishing" that I am, it will be a piece of cake. A chance to show off like that will be a great impetus to getting that drop box onto Old Fugly, and a chance to make her Brown Precision fiberglass stock even fuglier.
The SAAMI .458 WM load with 450-gr HYDRO at just over 2300 fps MV as per Sir Russ should be utterly reliable for any land animal and suitable for whaling insurance shots.
I am still rooting for 400-gr/.458 bullets of all types and all velocities from 1800 fps to 2600 fps in the .458 WM and .458 WM-Unchained. 400-grainer at 2500 fps MV would be the standard "Tropical Load" for serious business.
I wonder if the old 400-gr Steel FMJ RN "Solid" (like the Hornady-made "encapsulated" Bone Crusher of TC) might be less squirrelly than the longer 500-grainers ? In a stack of boards or in the bony layers of an elephant skull, even a RN solid occasionally stays straight. But nobody trusts a RN solid anymore, and I would always prefer an FN solid over a RN solid. But a shorter 400-gr/.458-caliber RN solid would be inherently more stable than the longer ones. Just sayin'.
Momentum of 500-grainer at 2100 fps = 150 pounds-feet Momentum of 400-grainer at 2500 fps = 143 pounds-feet Momentum of 400-grainer at 2625 fps = 150 pounds-feet
The .458 WM-Unchained can launch a 400-grainer at 2625 fps from a 25" Shilen barrel using a compressed charge of H4895. Been there, done that, and lived to tell about it. It was a Woodleigh PPSN at 3.425" COL. A longer brass FN at 3.600" COL might do it too. Surely a Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid shortened from 500 grains to 400 grains could do it.
Otto Candies, Jr. shortened the 500-gr/.475 TBSS to 400 grains and shot through a big bull elephant skull with a handgun velocity of about 1400 fps (.475 Linebaugh). So the 400-gr/.458 TBSS would eventually slow down to 1400 fps inside that elephant skull and go on along its straight-line-penetrating way. Thus with greater SD and initially higher momentum compared to the 400-gr/.475 TBSS, it might overcome the initially higher resistance generated by impact at higher velocity. This assumes that the brass FN does not deform. I believe that at impact velocities below 2700 fps, the brass FN 400-gr/.458 solid would not deform.
Now, consider that a .458 WM-Unchained cannot make it past 2700 fps with a 400-gr brass FN. I am pretty sure of that.
Not sure you’re aware but Woodleigh make their 458 Hydros in 400gr and 325gr weights for the 45/70. The 400gr version is probably a little too long in a 45/70 case, hence the 325gr version.
The 400gr version, when loaded in a 458WM case and crimped in to the 3rd groove from the bottom, provides over one caliber length inside the case and still fits in a 30/06 length mag.
Here are some of the results of penetration tests of .458" bullets, 4 years ago on Oct 31/17. All were fired from my Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT (long throat) at reduced MV's to simulate hitting big tough game at about 100 yards.
The test medium was two cardboard boxes of hard cover books, plus dry glossy magazines, separated by 2 wooden, 2" planks. A very tough media.
Of interest in the context of 400gr /.458" solids with flat tips:
> a 400gr Barnes Buster completely penetrated both boxes of books and magazines, plus the 2 planks, without deviation in a straight line, and was lost. There was no indication of expansion. MV was 2250 fps (Max would have been 2400 fps). Distance to media from the muzzle was 5 yards.
> a 330gr Barnes brass or bronze solid with a flat nose at 2400 fps did as well as the 400gr Barnes Buster. (the 330gr was soon after dropped by Barnes, as were all other FT brass solids due to the Feds interference) I still have a bunch.
> a 480gr DGX at 1780 fps did exactly the same as the other two, except shot placement was closer to one side of the first box (I had 1" black dots on the front box as aiming points for each shot) and it hit the ledge behind leaving a perfect .458" imprint. It too was lost.
My takeaway is that almost any reasonable flat-nose solid will quite easily penetrate solid bone, assuming the lighter ones are given higher MV than the heavier ones. That is where momentum counts.
The 400 Buster was given a 128.6 momentum The 330 Buster was given a 113.1 momentum The 480 DGX was given a 122.4 momentum
As mentioned before: The 500gr Speer African GS was stopped at 6 inches penetration, retaining 310 grains. The others penetrated the full 15.5 inches of very tough media. That short list is not all that were tested that day, but I though it might be of interest in regard to a 400gr solid in .458".
Added: It may also be of interest to note that while the 330gr Barnes brass solid completely penetrated the 15.5 inches of tough media, the 350gr Hornady FP was stopped at 4.5" and lost its core!
Also of possible interest: I recently was able to purchase a box of Hornady 250gr Monoflex in .458 cal. They are made specifically for the 1895 Marlins in .450 and .45-70. Hornady recommends MVs between 1400 to 2500 fps. But those are MVs expected from the Marlin rifles. Anyway, I've loaded a bunch for my #1 Ruger in .458 WM to simulate (if possible) a Marlin in .45-70. I'd hoped to range test them today but we're getting heavy rain, and the "weather man" is now saying it will be a wet week! I am still hoping to get some fired this week for a report on my blog by Saturday.
According to Hornady, on the box I read: "Monolithic copper alloy won't separate, and retains 95% weight", and "Patented Flex Tip design is safe to use in tubular magazines", plus: "Ultra tough medium and big game bullet choice".
Sounds good, eh? That, we will discover! If that plan works well enough, then deer hunting starts on Nov. 1st. for rifle hunters. Looks like a possible wolf load too!
Also of possible interest: I recently was able to purchase a box of Hornady 250gr Monoflex in .458 cal. They are made specifically for the 1895 Marlins in .450 and .45-70. Hornady recommends MVs between 1400 to 2500 fps. But those are MVs expected from the Marlin rifles. Anyway, I've loaded a bunch for my #1 Ruger in .458 WM to simulate (if possible) a Marlin in .45-70.
Your penetration testing underscores the excellence of the 400-gr/.458 FN solid. I was not worried about it a bit, however. I am convinced. Will look forward to your results with the 250-gr Hornady Monoflex at your blog. I have tried them and my favorite load is a bit unusual: AA-5744 for a non-reduced load.
With a COL of 3.340" (SAAMI compliant, ha ha), Hornady brass, F215 primer, in a 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1, at 67*F:
65.0 grains of AA-5744 >>> 2725 fps corrected to MV. 3 shots in one hole at 50 yards.
For my top velocity with no signs of excessive pressure, same details for rifle and loading as above except different powder:
82.0 grains of H4198 >>> 3075 fps corrected to MV. 3 shots also made one hole at 50 yards but the cloverleaf was almost twice as large.
BTW, 65.0 grains was the starting load with AA-5744 and was most accurate. 69.0 grains (my max tried) gave 3003 fps MV.
Starting load with H4198 was 78.0 grains and gave 2913 fps MV. 82.0 grains was the maximum tried with H4198.
AA-5744 averaged near 70 fps MV increase for each grain of powder increase. H4198 averaged about 40 fps MV increase for each grain of powder increase. 250 grains is mighty light but the monometal construction makes it good, even at as low as 2000 fps MV according to bulkie_roll, his powder charge not mentioned, yet. 3075 fps MV is down to 2057 fps at 200 yards. 2725 fps MV is down to 1998 fps at 150 yards, 1785 fps at 200 yards. Might as well use the slower load that gives up barely over 50 yards range.
Of course, a Lee Factory Crimp Die works without the third cannelure, for any COL you want.
Same bit of steel could be used inside the likes of Old Fugly's magazine well to replace a cut off front wall of mag box. IIRC, a steel insert was used by Sir Joe to reduce the CZ 550 Magnum internal box length from about 3.8" to 3.7".
Also of possible interest: I recently was able to purchase a box of Hornady 250gr Monoflex in .458 cal. They are made specifically for the 1895 Marlins in .450 and .45-70. Hornady recommends MVs between 1400 to 2500 fps. But those are MVs expected from the Marlin rifles. Anyway, I've loaded a bunch for my #1 Ruger in .458 WM to simulate (if possible) a Marlin in .45-70.
Your penetration testing underscores the excellence of the 400-gr/.458 FN solid. I was not worried about it a bit, however. I am convinced. Will look forward to your results with the 250-gr Hornady Monoflex at your blog. I have tried them and my favorite load is a bit unusual: AA-5744 for a non-reduced load.
With a COL of 3.340" (SAAMI compliant, ha ha), Hornady brass, F215 primer, in a 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1, at 67*F:
65.0 grains of AA-5744 >>> 2725 fps corrected to MV. 3 shots in one hole at 50 yards.
For my top velocity with no signs of excessive pressure, same details for rifle and loading as above except different powder:
82.0 grains of H4198 >>> 3075 fps corrected to MV. 3 shots also made one hole at 50 yards but the cloverleaf was almost twice as large.
BTW, 65.0 grains was the starting load with AA-5744 and was most accurate. 69.0 grains (my max tried) gave 3003 fps MV.
Starting load with H4198 was 78.0 grains and gave 2913 fps MV. 82.0 grains was the maximum tried with H4198.
AA-5744 averaged near 70 fps MV increase for each grain of powder increase. H4198 averaged about 40 fps MV increase for each grain of powder increase. 250 grains is mighty light but the monometal construction makes it good, even at as low as 2000 fps MV according to bulkie_roll, his powder charge not mentioned, yet. 3075 fps MV is down to 2057 fps at 200 yards. 2725 fps MV is down to 1998 fps at 150 yards, 1785 fps at 200 yards. Might as well use the slower load that gives up barely over 50 yards range.
Of course, a Lee Factory Crimp Die works without the third cannelure, for any COL you want.
Sir Ron;
I really do appreciate this, especially since you did it using the Ruger #1!
I've just sat down at my reloading desk, planning a load for the 250 MonoFlex using AA5744! I had calculated that 36 grains should give somewhere near 2000 fps. But having already written the draft for Saturday's blog, I mentioned in it that I was aiming for a top Marlin load of about 2500 fps, but also mentioned that 3000 fps would be possible. For that I figured 81 -82 grains of H4198! That's all I can get into a Hornady case and seat a bullet about 1/4". I've used 82 of H4198 under the 300gr TSX for close to 3000 fps (2980 fps).
But instead of immediately going ahead with my plan for AA5744, I chose to read anything new on this thread, while hoping for an answer to my question re 2000 fps from the 250 MonoFlex. So, I got my answer anyway! I didn't know I could use that much of AA5744 within safe pressures - now I know.
Yesterday, I'd already loaded 9 of the 250 MonoFlex, 3 each as so: 69 grains of H4198 which I estimated at ~2650; 73 grains of H322 for an estimated 2550 fps; and 75 grains of H322 for an estimated ~2625 fps.
NOW! Your load of 65 grs of AA5744 at 2725 fps will go into 3 Hornady cases, WLRM primer and COL of 3.4" ! (The others are 3.3" COL). Will get-er-done immediately! And tomorrow's weather looks favorable, so up early (6 am) for departure at 7:30 am, arrival at range 1 hour later, check in (we now have an electronic digital card to open gate while staying in vehicle and close gate in same manner - that's my check in with a personal identification so they always know who's there. Same procedure on leaving!.) set up Chrony, etc, shooting starts at 9:30 am. I'll use the 50 yard berm as my Ruger #1 is now sighted for the 405gr at 100 yards going 2100 fps. I'll aim at the bottom of the target at 50 to get (hopefully) on paper.
Sir Bob, You will not be disappointed. Inside of 200 yards it will be a deer wonder, not mere wounder of deer. Bubba's youtube prononcement on that bullet from a Hornady .45-70 factory load at about 2000 fps MV was that it is superior to a .300 WinMag inside of 200 yards. That was based on his skin-on-bone-in pork shoulder demolition and water jug penetration tests.
That MonoFlex ought to be a standard factory load by Hornady for the .458 WinMag, same as you have loaded it. It might be soon, what with the way the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood is growing by leaps and bounds.
But the geometry of the box still requires attention does it not?
We can do a lot of consideration there for sure, assuming you mean in turning an 8x57mm Mauser M98 box into a .404 Jeffery or .458 Lott (ugh) box. W. J. Jeffery obviously attended to theirs. Heym may be making their mag boxes cartridge specific, even for their .505 Gibbs, but most "factory rifles" make do with less than perfect "geometry."
The Pre-'64 Winchester M70 in .375 H&H got a 4+1 fit perfected, like a glove. Like OJ's gloves fit him before they shrank with the drying of the blood soaking them.
Actual cartridge brass is often a couple or a few thou smaller than the max spec, and the minimum box diameters ought to have 10 or 20 thou clearance for best function. With all that, the Pre-'64 M70 in .375 H&H (or .395 H&H or .300 H&H) still cuts the mustard.
That's funny, the follower lengths vary from 0.005" longer (+) than COL to 0.275" shorter (-) than COL. All my Winchester M70 followers are aluminum alloy except the Pre-'64 and the Wiebe.
Sir Bob, You will not be disappointed. Inside of 200 yards it will be a deer wonder, not mere wounder of deer. Bubba's youtube prononcement on that bullet from a Hornady .45-70 factory load at about 2000 fps MV was that it is superior to a .300 WinMag inside of 200 yards. That was based on his skin-on-bone-in pork shoulder demolition and water jug penetration tests.
That MonoFlex ought to be a standard factory load by Hornady for the .458 WinMag, same as you have loaded it. It might be soon, what with the way the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood is growing by leaps and bounds.
Mine is zeroed and ready to go with them. I’ll find something to try them on.
Sir Bob, You will not be disappointed. Inside of 200 yards it will be a deer wonder, not mere wounder of deer. Bubba's youtube prononcement on that bullet from a Hornady .45-70 factory load at about 2000 fps MV was that it is superior to a .300 WinMag inside of 200 yards. That was based on his skin-on-bone-in pork shoulder demolition and water jug penetration tests.
That MonoFlex ought to be a standard factory load by Hornady for the .458 WinMag, same as you have loaded it. It might be soon, what with the way the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood is growing by leaps and bounds.
Mine is zeroed and ready to go with them. I’ll find something to try them on.
"The Crusade" rolls along, reminds me of that old Blackfoot song, Train, Train...................good work Gentlemen!
I know I'm late to the discussion but a M70 Classic in 300 win mag becomes 458 3+1 with no real work right? It's the use of a 375 H&H box that requires work but allows loading to a longer COAL thus beating the Lott? Or is the point to create lower operating pressures?
I was watching that trial like the rest of 4 channels America and shouted at the screen, “you idiot! They won’t fit after drying out for months! Object!” Marcia Clark really messed that one up. On the matter of 458 and mag boxes: I will say it again; Sir Ron is producing better quality content than can be found anywhere. Data and pictures both first quality.
"The Crusade" rolls along, reminds me of that old Blackfoot song, Train, Train...................good work Gentlemen!
That is a good one, Sir Jerry. Buy a donkey . Blackfoot's "Train, Train" ... I hear that harmonica leading up to heavy metal and foot stomping. Doing good is a train train with no end, with a "Simple Man" riding the rails, feeling like a "Free Bird" free of the idea that the .458 Lott is in any way preferrable to the .458 WM. Cue Lynrd Skynrd.
I know I'm late to the discussion but a M70 Classic in 300 win mag becomes 458 3+1 with no real work right? Un-block the rear of the box, shorten the ejector-bolt-stop, and re-barrel that .300 WinMag to SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber, and VOILA ! You have a .458 WM+ capable of 3.6" COL. It's the use of a 375 H&H box that requires work but allows loading to a longer COAL thus beating the Lott? Yes. Or is the point to create lower operating pressures? Yes.
The .458 WM+ Unchained allows you to choose, either same velocity as the SAAMI .458 Lott but at lower pressure, or higher velocity than the SAAMI .458 Lott at same pressure as the SAAMI .458 Lott. Or just use the SAAMI .458 WinMag (3.34" and 60,000 psi) and get within 50 fps of the SAAMI .458 Lott (3.6" and 62,500 psi). Some perfectly safe loads for the .458 WM+ (loads at 3.6" COL or shorter) are unsafe in a SAAMI .458 Lott. Throat, throat ... Train, Train.
The .450 NE is one of those No-Throat Cartridges with brass designed for not much more than 40K PSI. The .458 Lott Like Jack Built is the more powerful choice, but it can do no more than a SAAMI .458 WinMag Ruger No. 1. Both can load a 500-gr/.458 TSX to 3.78" COL at most, and with the same charge of powder. Thus becoming two wildcat loads that perform the same when loaded to same pressure with same bullet. .458 WM+Unchained (.458 WM+U) .458 Lott Like Jack Built (.458 LLJB)
In the SAAMI .458 Lott, with both the 450-gr and 500-gr TSX, one has to short-trim the brass (acccording to BARNES RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER 4) "back to 2.760" so that these bullets can be loaded within the SAAMI spec C.O.A.L. of 3.600". If your magazine box will handle cartridges longer than 3.600", this step is not necessary.
But the SAAMI .458 Lott throat will not allow as much longer as will the "wildcat loadings" of the .458 LLJB and .458 WM+U. Both "wildcat loadings" allow same length COL as the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber, when the bullet is long enough. The only advantage of the .458 LLJB over the .458 WM+U is with snake&birdshot and rat-bullet loads. Come to think of it, Old Fugly would make a dandy Garden Gun.
Just beating the old sawhorse to death: Physics does not lie.Throat throat throat. That's a fact Jack. "Train, Train."
Ha ha. Buy a donkey for the flowers. Alf was an orthopedic surgeon of sorts, specializing in foot and ankle reconstruction I reckon.
Selection of medical specialty training candidates: Bottom third of graduating medical school class goes to gym for bench press testing. Those who can bench press their own weight go into orthopedic surgery. Those who can't bench their own weight go into OB/GYN surgery.
Two medical doctors are standing in an elevator. The elevator starts to close as a colleague rushes up to get in too. The Board Cerified Family Medicine "specialist" sticks his hand out to stop the doors. The orthopedic surgeon sticks his head between the doors.
Alf was hung up on the .458 Express 3-Inch, like a .458 Lott lengthened to 3" case. It was invented by his RSA countrymen and was absolutely more of a bad idea.
You need to punch that .45-90-2.4" out to .45-100-2.6" with the same throat as on a .458 Winner. I thought I had done something slightly original in doing that, until I discovered that CIP had already homologated the exact same chambering, called the .45-70 Elko Magnum. Uses 70 grains of smokeless instead of 70 grains of BP, I reckon to be the nomenclature idea. The case made with Starline .45-2.6" brass is a couple of grains H2O bigger than Hornady .458 WM brass.
I have a couple of Ruger No. 1 rifles so chambered. Here is one of mine, a lot like yours, should be same weight:
The Starline brass is up to handling any SAAMI .458 WM load, just make the COL 0.100" longer. The Ruger No. 1 action can certainly handle it. We can make plenty of "Train, Train" about such chamberings, tons of fun that can be duplicated by the .458 Winner, just to stay on the train tracks.
But for the next few days this hobo is going to hop out of the boxcar. Headed to a shindig to celebrate the 50th anniversary of my high schools's first state championship in boys' cross-country. The high school has so many of those old trophies now that they were going to throw out their first one. I am driving it to the home of my team mate.
We started a tradition of winning at our high school. He and I are the only surviving members of the "Fearsome Foursome" top scorers for the team. Hey, the .458 Winner started a similar tradition 65 years ago. The .458 Winner figure above is from that trophy. The trophy is going into a private shrine now.
The "winners," just like the .458 Winchester Magnum, now that I have hopped back on the "Train, Train":
Above is at the Bourbon County High School Cross Country Course near Paris, Kentucky. That is the closest I will ever get to Paris. I was the "team captain" and my name is listed first on that trophy. Curtis beat all by wearing his lucky socks that day, 50 years ago to the day. He is wearing them in the photo above too, under plastic bags over his shoes and socks, due to the rainy day muddy course. He would not dare risk mud on his lucky socks.
On my way home from the celebration, the Wife and I stopped off at Trader Joe's in Louisville, KY for some groceries. When a guy in his seventh decade of life walks around in his high school "letter windbreaker" that says "Kentucky State Champions 1971" across the back of it, and he is wearing a medal around his neck, people at the grocery store are really nice to him. They probably think he is socially or mentally retarded and are just being kind to the "special." Sort of like the lame stream media does to Joe Biden. The loser:
Ha ! Just mill your own properly dimensioned magazine box "from scrap" like Harald Wolf does. Or pull a W. J. Jeffery Model 1905 job out of your hat ? 5-round magazine he said ! 22" barrel he said ! But he might do 20" next time !
I think it is interesting that Harald Wolf built a .458 WinMag Jungle Carbine for his own use, though he usually advocated for the .458 Lott. But that was before the fog lifted and we all realized the superiority of the .458 WM+Unlimited. Harald Wolf loved to build rifles and sell rifles. Of course he would advocate the .458 Lott over the .458 WM. New fashion to replace old fashion to encourage commerce. Returning to the "Classic" .458 WM makes most sense nowadays. More than just another swing of fashion, undoing the conversion to .458 Lott is smart. It is time for commerce in that direction, by the wise.
Here is the cover of HTI No. 24, from about end of 2009 or early 2010, call it "Page 1"
That is a wild image by a cameraman of steel. Harald was that you ? Back cover of same issue, "Page 60":
Inside of cover, "Page 2":
What a GUNSMITH ! Hand-made .500 Jeffery and Leverbolt Newton rifles !
Harald Wolf, The Master, ran into health issues in 2009:
And an excerpt for "book review purposes," a single image I have turned sideways and labeled with info from the book:
The .458/.416 Ruger aka .458 WinRuger shall forthwith be known as the ".45 Newton." The Newton head diameter is .523". The Ruger head diameter is .532". Close enough for "Train, Train" work. The .45 NEWTON: Better shoulder than a .400 Whelen. Better shoulder than a .300 AAC Blackout. Recommended for cleaning up a .458 WinMag chamber found to be ringed by reamer chatter at the factory.
Compared, not quite to same scale: .40 Newton maximum brass length has been claimed to be 2.568", shoulder 23 degrees, head diameter 0.523", rim diameter 0.524". .45 Newton maximum brass length has been claimed to be 2.580", shoulder 30 degrees, head and rim diameters both 0.532".
Harald Wolf recommended using the 480-grain bullet in the .458 Lott at 2200 fps.
The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum at 3.340" COL and less than 60,000 psi can easily do that with a 24" barrel. That easily duplicates the classic .450 Nitro Express. The .458 WinMag+UnLtd. can do a lot more, that is, more than a Lott.
HOO-RAH ! Well done ! Another Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood is made. Have a tap on the shoulder with the flat of a Bagwell Bowie at the next meeting at The Square Table. We are like the Maytag Repairman nowadays regarding repairing the .458 Winchester Magnum. It needs no fixing ! That leaves plenty of time to party on this "Train, Train" of a thread.
can I be a squire. to the knights of the 458 crusade
pros. I have a 458 I shoot cast bullet and I am the one who told you where the get picatiny rail specially made for the model 70. (near manufacturing) the first place I go opening my computer in the morning is to go to this thread
Sir Tony, Buy a donkey for the flowers. Just spreading the word. There are a fewer and fewer Lottites around nowadays, but we are always ready to show them the way.
It's about time you picked a Sir Name. I recall your heavy cast bullet work with the .458 WinMag, from the anchor baby's website. Your Knighthood is well and truly deserved. Please give us a review of the heavy cast oad data for discussion. Makes a great moose tenderizer, eh ?
ASKINS ON SAFARI in the GUNS magazine of January 1971 was about Col. Askins' Botswana Safari of 1970. Col. Askins had a PH there named Walter Johnson, son of Wally Johnson. Walter Johnson the Younger and Walter Johnson the Elder, if you will, Junior and Senior.
Askins wrote:
In talking over the double express vs the magazine rifle for the backup arm, Walter Johnson said, "You never win an argument about either politics or rifles. I always tell those double express boys that I will shoot them a rapid fire match, They with the old two-barreler loaded and with those 2 extra cartridges between their fingers. And me with four rounds in the Model 70. I'll get my shots off quickest and most accurately. What I am looking for, actually, is a .458 that will hold not the customary 4 rounds but about six!"
It's about time you picked a Sir Name. I recall your heavy cast bullet work with the .458 WinMag, from the anchor baby's website. Your Knighthood is well and truly deserved. Please give us a review of the heavy cast oad data for discussion. Makes a great moose tenderizer, eh ?
So what is your Sir Name ?
I would like has my Sir Name. Sir Meplat my 550 gr. large méplat cast out of wheel weight is 12 hardness it expand beautifully in wet paper I haven't take game with it but my hunting buddy a moose at about 170 yards moose was runny away quartering the bullet entered just ahead of the ham and existed in the front of the opposite front leg it drop there at the shot the load was with IMR 4198. if I remember 46 gr. velocity was 1680 average
my load is 65 gr. of 3031 and I get 2025 fps very accurate
It's about time you picked a Sir Name. I recall your heavy cast bullet work with the .458 WinMag, from the anchor baby's website. Your Knighthood is well and truly deserved. Please give us a review of the heavy cast oad data for discussion. Makes a great moose tenderizer, eh ?
So what is your Sir Name ?
I would like has my Sir Name. Sir Meplat my 550 gr. large méplat cast out of wheel weight is 12 hardness it expand beautifully in wet paper I haven't take game with it but my hunting buddy a moose at about 170 yards moose was runny away quartering the bullet entered just ahead of the ham and existed in the front of the opposite front leg it drop there at the shot the load was with IMR 4198. if I remember 46 gr. velocity was 1680 average
my load is 65 gr. of 3031 and I get 2025 fps very accurate
Arise Sir Meplat, and go tenderize a moose with that 550-gr WFNGC. That is indeed a superb load you have concocted. I might substitute Hodgdon Benchmark for your IMR-3031, same charge, and expect very similar results. IMR-3031 might be the old classic benchmark powder for the .458 WinMag, but there are so many more choices nowadays. Sir Russ has had great results with Hodgdon Benchmark (ADI same-same) with his 550-gr Woodleigh.
That is remarkable to see the recovered bullet beautifully mushroomed with gas check engraved and holding tight. Good job applying those ! Was it recovered from game or artificial media ?
Paper-patched 550-grain 45-cals at about 1400 fps, with more aerodynamic noses, were the zenith of 1000-yard, Creedmoor-type contests in the 1870s. But that wide FN will smack game better at closer ranges, especially when started out at over 2000 fps.
Saint Bagwell's 480-grain FN plain base at 1300 fps had a smaller meplat and worked wonders, whether it expanded or not, from his .45-70 out to 500 yards. And the Lottites think the .458 WinMag bullets just tickle the game gently ?
I have a Baikal/Remington/Spartan .45-70 double rifle with jackscrew muzzle regulation. One of these days I will get it regulated for the Saint Bagwell ballistics, assuming the groove diameter and twist are OK. I need to check that. Deer season is coming next weekend for my .458 WinMag however ...
the mushroom bullet was recovered from wet paper the wet paper was at 200 yards yes next summer I will try these new powder, at 74 wee seem to stick to old ways by the way this bullet feed good in my model 70 I had a Sako brown bear in 450 Rigby and it did not but almost so in this rifle I shot the saeco 245 grainer it looks like the chamber of the 458 love bore riding bullet in the 1980 I had a Winchester Model 70 push feed that
cloverleaf the RCBS 400 gr. with 59 gr. of 3031 this rifle had a 22 inch barrel and to me was better balanced than my present 24
thank you for accepting me in your ranks of knights
Deer season is coming next weekend for my .458 WinMag however ...
[/quote]
Sir Ron,
My Ruger #1 in .458 was deer hunting yesterday, and perhaps again later today. I was in on the "new" logging trail (4th trip) and found some fresh tracks of smaller deer, but huge tracks of a buck... and they were fresh! I'd guesstimate he'd go over 300 lbs easily. But being alone, I didn't stay to last light as the potential of getting a huge buck out in darkness wouldn't be a wise move - alone.
The deer load is the one you suggested: 65 grains of AA5744. MV isn't as high at 2610 fps as you were getting from your Ruger at 2725 fps, but still plenty to 200 yards for adequate trajectory. Did you see the pic of that load on my recent blog? 0.45" for three at 50. It'd zeroed for 150 yards.
the mushroom bullet was recovered from wet paper the wet paper was at 200 yards
That is worthy of Knighthood in itself, setting up your wetpack at 200 yards and hitting it with a 550-grain WFNGC. But of course the .458 WinMag helped, with its inherent accuracy, of course.
yes next summer I will try these new powder, at 74 wee seem to stick to old ways
You fit right in here with the pack of old dogs learning new tricks, like me and Sir Bob.
by the way this bullet feed good in my model 70
Another great recommendation for the .458 WinMag: Ease of feeding FNs, even works with a WFN !
I had a Sako brown bear in 450 Rigby and it did not but almost so in this rifle
Funny thing, those .450 Rigby and .450 Dakota rifles usually get used with loads that a .458 WM+Unlimited can equal, with lesser powder charges and hence lesser recoil, and with greater magazine capacity.
I shot the saeco 245 grainer
That would be what I call a rat bullet, appropriate for the .458 Lott.
it looks like the chamber of the 458 love bore riding bullet
Amen.
in the 1980 I had a Winchester Model 70 push feed that cloverleaf the RCBS 400 gr. with 59 gr. of 3031 this rifle had a 22 inch barrel and to me was better balanced than my present 24
I had one of those pushfeed 22-inchers purchased in 1984. Wish I had never let it go. The 400-grainers of all types are my favorite bullet weight, at all velocities from 1400 fps to 2600 fps in the mighty .458 WinMag.
thank you for accepting me in your ranks of knights
canuckistan
Sir Meplat, your latest post shows the honor was long over due.
Sir Bob's .458 WinMag target from his blog installment that happened while I was in Paris:
"... using 65 grains of AA5744, without any scope adjustments, (Nikon 2 – 7 x 32mm) set at 4.75X, and voila!"
"The pic says it all! 3 into 0.45″ (measured center to center). At a corrected to MV of 2610 fps/ 3781 ft-lbs. This will be my hunting load with the 250gr MonoFlex for the rest of the fall season! In fact to the end of 2021. I’ll load up another 10 or so for bear, deer or wolf.
Here’s the data on that load:
BC = .175
SD = .170
MV = 2610 fps/ 3781 ft-lbs. Recoil = 23 ft-lbs from my .458 Win Mag rifle.
Environment: +1200 ft; 42*F/ +5*C; RH @ 58%
Zero @ 150 yards
50 = 2363 fps/ 3099 ft-lbs/ +0.68″
100= 2130 fps/ 2519 ft-lbs/ +1.28″
150= 1911 fps/ 2027 ft-lbs/ +0.01″
200= 1707 fps/ 1618 ft-lbs/ -3.65″
250= 1521 fps/ 1284 ft-lbs/ -10.3″ (adequate for up to an approximate 800 lb soft-skinned animal with a hit to the vitals)
Hornady claims this 250gr will expand down to 1400 fps, so we’re good to 275 yds for critters that might bite! So, it looks like my .458 could qualify as a varmint rifle after all!
It could be pushed out the muzzle of the 24″ barrel at 3000 fps/5000 ft-lbs, but I’ll use ’em for the critters mentioned so no need for anything like 3000 fps…. but just maybe… I might give that a try anyway as “a scientific research” project!
MV @ 3000 fps/4995 ft-lbs/ Recoil = 36 ft-lbs from my rifle at 10.5 lbs ready with Mag-na-ports.
*All matters considered, the 250gr at 2610 fps is the better load for my purpose in a light bullet load for smaller game to 250 yards or so. The same MV ballistics could be attained from a typical .35 Whelen, but a 250gr in .358″ is longer and thinner, therefore with a much higher BC that translates to longer effective ranges – with significantly greater recoil! There’s no pretence here in trying to make a .458 WM 250gr load into a .35 Whelen but, rather, to show its utility for most game that I hunt at practical ranges than thought “normal” for a Big Bore .458 WM.
In a discussion of this on the 24hr campfire forum, one poster said he uses the 250gr MonoFlex at 2000 fps from his 22″ M70 in .458 WM for deer in the Northeast! “Devastating” of deer was how he described that experience."
That would be Sir Bulkie.
In terms of Hornady’s manual for that bullet, recoil would be about 29 ft-lbs from an 1895 Marlin load at 2500 fps (and as mentioned, the .458 Win Mag load at 2610 fps is 23 ft-lbs recoil in my #1 Ruger) and 31 ft-lbs for the 250gr Barnes’ load at 2609 fps for the 250gr TSX FN from an 1895 Marlin in .45-70.
The real point of this is, again, to show the .458 Win Mag’s adaptability. It can quite easily be handloaded to match ballistics of a BP front loader, a Marlin in .45-70, or even do most of the work of a 6.5 Creedmoor or 7-08 Rem. But the 250gr MonoFlex load in the Ruger would be relatively slow in recoil – like a push of 13 fps, about identical to the 6.5 and 7mm.
At this point I’d also like to acknowledge a longtime friend: Dan Schindler of Paragon School of Shooting. We’ve corresponded over the years since I’ve been a blog writer. Some of that correspondence has been intimate, some casual, and some instructional both ways. Over a decade ago, Dan asked my opinion on a .458 Win Mag load he intended to use on a black bear hunt in Alaska. I told him I didn’t think a 265gr Cutting Edge bullet was the best choice when heavier bullets were available and, in my opinion, would do a better job. With that 265gr CE bullet leaving the muzzle of his .458 at little more than my load of the 250gr MonoFlex, he killed a good size black bear with one shot at 90 yards! I did the math, and congratulated him! He was right in his choice to minimise recoil and at the same time achieve his goal with plenty to spare from the “great” .458 Winchester Magnum.
I’m still learning – though being the father of a son who is a grandfather himself!"
Sir Bob, as much as you hate to admit it, that makes you a Great Grand Father. In other words, an old dog still learning new tricks, eh?
"Of course, I understand that not everyone likes, or even wishes, to carry a rifle of two extra pounds. Yet, it’s quite extraordinary what those insignificant couple of pounds can do. With field experience of only one season of hunting in challenging conditions they can transform our habitual attitudes, physical balance and strength to that of well conditioned outdoors men! I’m not kidding!
In just three day trips to my hunting grounds on Crown Land in the Haliburton Highlands – in consideration of minimal activity due to the Covid crisis and four months of a debilitating arthritic attack over last winter – and in addition to recently spending time away with our family in New Brunswick, where I got a good workout with my son in tramping through prime deer country, I progressed from a somewhat weak and stumbling 85 year old to a strong, well balanced hunter like I was at 65! And I consciously chose to use my 10.5 lb Ruger No.1 in .458 Win for that transformation! My 9.3 x 62 is a mere 7.7 lbs and ready with handloads, but I took the heavier rifle. The terrain was a newly logged out area with debris, mud, rocks, branches, tree tops and steep climbs everywhere! That first trip was with some trepidation as to where to place my feet without stumbling… The last trip was given to toting the 10.5 lb rifle (ready to shoot) in my right hand, gripped just forward of the action for perfect balance with one in the chamber and two in a stock holder. I could swing that rifle with one hand wherever and whenever needed to miss entanglement with branches, ledges, etc. Not boasting, just facts! And I intend, by God’s grace, to keep at it til the end of hunting seasons."
Sir Bob's AA-5744 load was shot at 42 degrees F. I shot basically same load at 67 degrees F, also in a Ruger No. 1. Our results in past have been in good agreement, uniformly. His Magna-ported barrel only loses a few fps versus my non-ported barrel of same Ruger make and length. He got 2610 fps and I got 2725 fps with same charge of 65 grains AA-5744 under the 250-gr Monoflex. This suggests that AA-5744 might be pretty temperature sensitive. We both got good accuracy with that load.
Converting 0.45" for three shots at 50 yards to MOA:
0.45" X 2 X (1 MOA/1.047"@100yards) = 0.86 MOA
I used a higher powered scope (9X) and got 0.63 MOA.
The load is a good one for large varmints and deer, speaking of which, the view from my tripod yesterday, right before sundown:
After a while, I whistled at that deer a few times, then barked like a dog (Hillary Clinton campaign like), then tried to cackle like Kamikaze Harris. Nothing happened except the deer looked around curiously. Then I tried some blowing and snorting sounds and it ambled off, nose to ground. That is a half-mile long cornfield recently harvested, with lots of broken up cob corn on the ground.
Walking out, I saw the moon is a waxing crescent, it will be gibbous next weekend, and I will be giddy.
Oops. Forgot about lot-to-lot variation possibility with AA-5744.
25-degree-F temperature difference might very easily produce a 50 fps change in velocity. That was routinely expected with the old IMR powders. Another 50 fps or more difference could easily come from a different lot of powder.
Just adjust the powder charge to desired velocity. Sir Bob is at a desired MV. I too am at a desired MV with the same charge of powder and same bullet. Circa 2610 fps to 2725 fps seems to be the accuracy node in a fat-barreled Ruger No. 1 with 250-grain Monoflex and AA-5744. Yep, that is on the low end of pressure and velocity possible in the mighty .458 WinMag.
Here is the PG-rated version with blood trail cropped out, just as the deer fell after a 33-yard stagger:
The R-rated zoom-out shows a blood trail that a blind man could follow:
The randy buck was chasing a tiny little doe. I figured he was a pedophile, so I shot him at a range of 144 yards, from a tripod where my muzzle was about 5 yards above ground:
I used a Nikon laser rangefinder after he was down.
Here is the start of the blood trail, and he can be seen 33 yards away, where he fell:
Here is another photo distortion, his outside spread on the rack is only 16.25", but his body size was impressive:
Local genetics favor basket racks. The buck weighed somewhere between 250 lbs and 300 lbs on the hoof.
Here is the entrance wound, and there was a loud "WHACK" returned from the hit:
Rolled over, exit wound is on left side, two ribs shattered by bullet exit:
Two proximal, upper ribs were destroyed on entrance near base of neck, and between the broken ribs on both sides was a broken heart, with front half of both atria missing:
Rifle used was Alderella (aka The Knik Knocker), a Ruger MK II with 25" Shilen barrel, and I left the muzzle brake on it. Same KDF brake can be used on Bobbarella the CZ .458 WinMag as well as Old Fugly the Whitworth .458 Lott, on which it was originally fitted to barrel, not a "slim-line" brake.
Ammo, excellent factory stuff:
Pulled bullet:
One shot on buck. From the tripod, off ground, the brake is not so loud. While walking out, I shot at a running coyote at about 200 yards, same day, missed, but it did seem to light his afterburners. Bounce-back from ground makes noise worse to shooter's ear. I have a hard time remembering ear plugs when a big buck comes running towards me, or a coyote surprises me and itself. Recoil is barely perceptible with the brake, unlike the noise, of course.
I may not have "hunted" coyote with a .458 WinMag, but at least I have shot at one. A bona fide coyote hunt is needed for the .458 WinMag.
Excellent report with detailed photos; thanks and congratulations!
I got out for deer three half-days in the newly logged-out area. Increased sign of deer activity. It was good to see wildlife moving back into an area that experienced two years of logging operations. On the last day (Wednesday, Nov. 10), there were fresh moose tracks of a bull, cow and calf. I fully expected to see them "in there", but didn't, though may have heard them just beyond a hill, out of sight. Of course, moose season was over two weeks prior, and I didn't have a licence anyway. Still two weeks remain for bear, and coyote and wolf till the end of March, 2022. I plan to go back to that same area for some calling. That also can work for bears. Anyway, it gets me out there.
All I have now for such hunting is my Ruger #1 in .458 Win with that deer load. That's plenty. My 9.3 x 62 is in "the shop" for a "slim-line" muzzle break. It won't be ready for 6 - 8 weeks. By then I'll be thinking spring bear hunting!
You "done good" with that load of the 400g Barnes TSX from Buffalo Bore! I'm surprised that buck made 30 yards after a hit like that! Again, congrats!
Yes, bled promptly, the meat was tasty for a mature buck in the rut. I saute'ed some diced tenderloin with onions and mushrooms for my supper tonight. It was to die for, said the buck.
smallfry, you have shown excellent judgement on the .450 Rigby thread. It deserves recognition by membership in the Knights of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood. Choose your sir name please.
That thread does have some interesting material that could be quoted here, to harken back to the days when the .458 WinMag needed defending. Much has been debunked since then.
Recognizing the greatness of the .458 WinMag does not have to be a chilling effect on commerce. Sure, it may sometimes stifle the sale of a lesser known .458-caliber rifle and ammunition, but it also spurs the proliferation of rifles for the .458 WinMag and its ammunition and components. And one can still own and play with all the others too. Have your cake and eat it too. I like your idea of turning an FN/SC/Portugal M70 .338 WinMag into a .458 WinMag. Now that I have realized it only takes an unblocking of the rear of the magazine and a shortening of the bolt-stop-ejector, I will do that too, soon as the GUNSMITH gets caught up on his backlog, for I have a .500 Jeffery languishing there at the GUNSHOP & SPA FOR WAYWARD RIFLES. That one is just for fun, not a serious rifle like any .458 WinMag is. I need the GUNSMITH to re-barrel the M70 .338 to .458 WinMag. I can do the magazine unblocking and bolt-stop-ejector shortening myself if need be. Even a late model .30-06 M70 can be used by adding on the bolt face enlargement by GUNSMITH. No milling of action bridge needed for up to 3.6" COL.
Sir Bob, Your latest blog on efficiency of the straight-walled cartridges was magnificent. Nice one on the 9.3x62mm Mauser also, for the week before. A leade-only, long-throated chamber (CIP) makes it an older brother of the .458 WinMag, and part of why it too is so efficient, still here since 1905, like the .404 Jeffery. Or was the .404 Jeffery (no throat to speak of) actually born in 1904 ? Probably so. Otherwise the 9.3x62mm Mauser would be the first-ever fully competent magazine repeater for BIG GAME. Stiff competition for that title.
Nice Buck to add to the conquests of the magnificent 458 WM! Results are as expected from the Round Table group, terrific!
Sir Dennis, Buy a donkey for the flowers, much appreciated. Remember we outgrew the Round Table a while back. It is now a Square Table that can be expanded as membership grows by adding custom fit leaves on two sides to keep it square into infinity. Long live the .458 Winchester Magnum ! The Mission became The Crusade, long since won. Now we are Knights of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood, secure in our peace, all battles won, the Hun has gone on the run.
Pretty Nice, Sir Ron! Great Shot placement! Great pics, and report! Very understandable, having that 458 pointing at him, Causing that Heart Attack and all!
Sir Tony, Now that is funny ! Heart attack indeed ! The heart was attacked by a 400-gr/.458 TSX from Buffalo Bore ! Buy a donkey for the much appreciated flowers for the buck, who died of a heart attack while chasing a doe.
If the standard .458 WM chamber is long-throated ... Yes, it is famously long throated as the standard SAAMI chambering ... and modified ... only the ammunition is modified, to be precise, no modifications to the standard SAAMI chamber ... so that it effectively becomes a magnum-length cartridge ... we call that the .458 WM+ "wildcatted ammunition" which is not limited to lower pressure and shorter length than the SAAMI .458 Lott ... (so as to hold more powder and reach 2300 fps), ... we assume you are speaking of 500-grain bullet at 2300 fps, to be more specific ... wouldn't it be better to have the case longer so that it fits the standard cannelure of the bullets that are now sticking out further, rather than cut a new cannelure further down the projectile? ... Take for example the 500-gr TSX that has 5 cannelures/grooves and is on average about 1.660" in length (from lots of 1.650" to 1.670" lengths that I have measured) which may be loaded to COLs of roughly 3.78", 3.68" or 3.58" using the 5th, 4th, and 3rd cannelures already there. At 3.58" COL, the seating depth is 0.58", way more than enough. To load the same bullet in the .458 Lott with 2.8" brass, one must use the first cannelure on the bullet and trim the 2.8" brass down to 2.760", according to the Barnes manual, in order to make maximum COL loads for the .458 Lott. With that, the seating depth in the Lott will be 0.820". What a waste. That is what happens when you make brass 0.3" longer and try to shoehorn it into a rifle action that allows only 0.2" longer magazine. There has been a rash of shortening bullet noses that were formerly optimum for the .458 WinMag, so as to make them work more easily in the SAAMI .458 Lott. Yes a rash broke out with the SAAMI .458 Lott disease ... This would give more support and protection to the projectiles that are subject to violent recoil when in the magazine True, but many .458 WM+ loads have more than enough seating depth and are locked in place by 100% load density and a Lee Factory Crimp Die. They do not pull loose and they do not get battered deeper into the case ... and would also give more support to very light short bullets that would otherwise have either a very long jump to the lands or have very little of the neck holding them. ... That is why I say that the SAAMI .458 Lott is only better with birdshot for snakes and rat bullets for small pests. If you want to fix the SAAMI .458 Lott, then give it a throat like on the wildcat version that Jack Lott built. The long jump with short bullets in the .458 WinMag is somehow not an accuracy impediment, it just works. The short and tight throat in the SAAMI .458 Lott will not even allow cast bullets of proper diameter for best accuracy, unless they have bore-rider noses and have the full diameter seated deeply ...
And continuing there, buy a donkey to Sir Meplat for the illustration:
Originally Posted by canuckistan
in the 458 me and my friend take the 458 lot load data
one example he shout barnes 350 tax with reloader 7 at 2680 fps
this with bullet that you can move forward and have the same case capacity of the lot and. safely of the lands
That is exactly what I did with the Woodleigh data for the 400-gr PPSN in the .458 Lott. I took the maximum load for the .458 Lott and loaded it to the 3.425" COL of the .458 Lott load (when crimped on the Woodleigh factory cannelure) but in the .458 WinMag at same COL, using an added cannelure (not needed with Lee Factory Crimp Die). I thus exceeded 2600 fps with the 400-grainer, with same COL and same degree of powder compression as required in the .458 Lott, with H4895. The pressure of this .458 WM+ load fired in a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber must be lower than the pressure of same load in a SAAMI .458 Lott with short and tight throat. Physics does not lie.
Hell of a deal on that buck Sir Ron! nice job Sir, i have the same in mind with the mighty 458 WM+
Sir Jerry, Your 450-grain TSX load at 2418 fps from your .458 WM+ Beauty will no doubt leave a good blood trail from whatever angle you hit the vitals. I look forward to your images of dead deer.
I stopped by the local emporium and there was a Happy Hunter getting the disembodied head of his buck B&C scored. I overheard that it went 150-yards after being shot with a .300 WinMag and there was no blood trail initially, though the buck was "double lunged" or shot through both lungs with a handloaded 180-gr TSX. It ran about 50 yards then turned 90 degrees and then started bleeding on ground for another 100 yards. Happy Hunter kindly texted me a couple of images of his deer on the spot at my request. There was an exit wound, through rib cage with no shoulder bone or heart hits. The deer was shot at close range, 60 to 70 yards. Happy Hunter estimated the weight was about 180 pounds on the hoof. I "unofficially" measured the rack outside spread and it was a hair over 20 inches (B&C uses inside spread, IIRC). It had a very symetrical 8-point set of antlers.
The.458 WM+ will more likely make that blood trail start right where the deer was standing when hit. The blood trail length may be zero yards long, or more, that's as precise as I can predict.
Left to right : Barnes “ Original “ 300 grain spitzer , 300 grain Sierra JSPFN , 325 Grain Hornady FTX w/ 2 cannelures , 325 grain Hornady FTX w/ 1 cannelure .
The newer crop coming off the production line only has the top cannelure . This bothers me none as I have the wonderful Corbin cannelure tool and will roll a cannelure in any bullet from .17 caliber to .720 …
Also to add : I’ve never used the Hornady 250 grain Mono-Flex as I previously stated . It is the 325 grain FTX … Nonetheless , they are devastating on whitetail . I will also use them w/ the orange ( .458 ) MMP sabot in my Savage ML-2 smokeless muzzleloader along with the Barnes Original 300 grain spitzer .
The second/bottom cannelure on the FTX is within .015” of the typical 300 grain location shown on the Sierra 300 JSPFN . The photo is off angle and shows it lower than it actually is .
The Hornady # 10 handbook only shows data for the 325 FTX for the 450 Marlin and the 45-70 . Additionally , Hornady states to trim the 450 Marlin and 45-70 brass to 2.040” when using these 325 grain FTX bullets . I do not need to trim my 45-70 brass to the specified 2.040 " because my 45-70 is a T/C Contender and has no problems chambering a cartridge with a 405 grain bullet . "
I use 300 grain reloading data for the 325 grain FTX seated to the second/bottom cannelure for my 458 WM , or I’ll seat to the top cannelure and use 350 grain reloading data for the 325 grain FTX . …. Again , I don’t hot rod my 458 WM loads and like to keep velocities with the 300 – 350 grain bullets to the 2,000 - 2,200 fps range as I don’t need Bursitis and find my load/rifle combination loves it .
I dislike when Hornady does this : eliminate cannelures … They recently did this on their awesome 300 grain XTP .430 diameter XTP , and their .357 180 grain XTP . … Enter the Corbin cannelure tool . I asked Steve Hornady himself at the Indianapolis NRA convention in 2019 and he had no idea they eliminated them .
Winchester M70 circa 1978 22 inch 60 degree F 300 grain Hornady JHP/JSP 66 grains IMR 3031 WLRM 2227 average of 5
Winchester M70 circa 1978 22 inch 60 degree F 325 grain Hornady FTX 45 grain Accurate 5744 WLRM 2025 average of 5
Buy a donkey for that load data for the .458 Winchester Magnum, much appreciated. Recalling that the Sierra 300-gr Pro Hunter vaporized inside Bobbarella's muzzle brake at 2800 fps, it is wise to keep velocity down with some bullets, of course. CH4D also makes an excellent canneluring tool.
Sir Scotty, Buy a donkey for the flowers. That buck must have been a basketball player on the whitetail team. Basket rack, tall and lean, he dwarfed the little doe he was chasing.
My CH4D Canntool handled .510-caliber quite easily. Old Barnes Original 600-gr/.510 were beautified nicely with it. Maybe I have a new and improved model or mine just doesn't realize it is not supposed to do that ?
The .458 Winchester Magnum deniers say that deer hunting with the .458 WM is merely practice for bouncing bullets off of dangerous game. 480-grain/.458-cal. FN cast bullets slowed down to 1300 fps will pass through bison like a hot knife through butter. Saint Bagwell tells us so. 500-grain jacketed bullets at 2000 fps will make bloody big holes in anything requiring it, according to Saint Aagaard. Saint Aagaard also said that the old 400-gr X-Bullet at 2300 fps did as well or better than any 500-gr jacketed bullet. Just sayin'.
My CH4D Canntool handled .510-caliber quite easily. Old Barnes Original 600-gr/.510 were beautified nicely with it. Maybe I have a new and improved model or mine just doesn't realize it is not supposed to do that ?
Just checked the CH4D website , .17 to 45 caliber .
My arrow is the 485'ish Grain FN Cast bullet leaving the barrel 1750ish. All those "Factory" Heart shot pictures are too low in my book but your Red line, Black dot and Yellow circle match where my PCH or duplex reticle comes to rest on deer or elk. A bit low and I still get the heart. A bit high and I've got Bone flying through the lungs in front of that big Flat Nose. Took the old Girl out a couple of days ago and put 3 in one cloverleaf hole at 50 sitting over sticks, backed up to 150 and put the other 5 just below them in a 2" group over same sticks. Out to 250 or so, it's hold on the middle hair and get the knife ready. At 300 I have to think about it a bit. Wiped the bore with Marvel Mystery Oil on a two patches and hung her upside down on her favorite hook. She's ready.
I had previously looked there and saw the image and read this:
This popular tool will roll a cannelure groove on any jacketed bullet from 17 to 45 caliber. Completely adjustable for depth and height. One setting will produce thousands of bullets. Also useful for making a second cannelure to lock the core to the jacket to control expansion of hunting bullets. Precision machined throughout. The cutting wheel is hardened to 59C Rockwell, so it will never wear out!
Image is wrong, and the caliber-capability range might need updating too:
Dang ! If mine is right-handed, then the "old" one is left-handed, which is something I had not noticed before ! Here is my model from CH4D that has the beefed-up lever and is .51-caliber capable:
Above has been presented previously. Brass on left above is for .510/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved. (Brass on right is .400 Whelen-B for next batch of bullets.) Some who have owned the Corbin canneluring tool liked the CH4D better, they say it is better built, more stoutly constructed. Since my CH4D is required for no more than .51-caliber canneluring, I am happy.
My arrow is the 485'ish Grain FN Cast bullet leaving the barrel 1750ish ... She's ready.
Sir Dennis is ready for anything, I'd say. Kills like magic alright ! If I didn't have a few more Buffalo Bore factory loads to fire, I'd be using cast lead FN bullets too. I am allowed three "antlerless" to finish my bag for the year. Will try to do my part to prevent mayhem on the highways. Birth control on both sexes is required.
I had previously looked there and saw the image and read this:
This popular tool will roll a cannelure groove on any jacketed bullet from 17 to 45 caliber. Completely adjustable for depth and height. One setting will produce thousands of bullets. Also useful for making a second cannelure to lock the core to the jacket to control expansion of hunting bullets. Precision machined throughout. The cutting wheel is hardened to 59C Rockwell, so it will never wear out!
Image is wrong, and the caliber-capability range might need updating too:
Dang ! If mine is right-handed, then the "old" one is left-handed, which is something I had not noticed before ! Here is my model from CH4D that has the beefed-up lever and is .51-caliber capable:
Above has been presented previously. Brass on left above is for .510/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved. (Brass on right is .400 Whelen-B for next batch of bullets.) Some who have owned the Corbin canneluring tool liked the CH4D better, they say it is better built, more stoutly constructed. Since my CH4D is required for no more than .51-caliber canneluring, I am happy.
.500 " diameter is the largest I need also ... I almost bought a " lovingly used " one on FleaBay ( $80 ) but didn't due to the factory specifications stating 45 caliber being the largest it would accommodate . Yes , they need to update that one little tid-bit .
Corbin tool w/ shipping + $210 delivered to my door . I am very satisfied . I check the size and locations of the cannelures on a optical comparator @ 25X .... Very consistent . However , that extra $120 in my pocket would have been glorious .
I learned to reload 35 years ago on a CH press with CH dies .
I still make my own practice bullets on the CH Swag-o-Matic .
Sir Allen, I have been wanting to find an accurate, single-ball, squib load for the .458 WM and .45-70. We have all kinds of 3000 to 6000 ft-lbs loads with 250-gr to 600-gr bullets of all types for DGR us. We use velocities from Mach 1 to near Mach 3. The next frontier is to make some subsonic small game loads. Stay tuned. I am thinking maybe a single .36-caliber lead ball in a .45-caliber sabot. Or a near-bore-diameter lead ball (.45") wrapped in paper or Teflon tape. So, a slower twist .45-70 (1:20" or 1:18") might be better than the 1:14" .458 WM. We'll see.
Also, using the Speer plastic shot capsules for .45 Long Colt: Stack two of those filled with No. 9 shot, one seated deep and one seated shallow. That will allow the .458 WM+ to compete with the .458 Lott as a garden gun. Garden gun use is the only area of superiority of the .458 Lott at present.
Ron Push a paper patched ball that will be tight in the bore down into the case over some Blue Dot kind of powder that achieves 1200 fps and I’m pretty sure you will find what you want. We used 10 and 15 thousands patching in our 45 muzzle loaders and around 40 grains of ffg for match shooting. Twist in the one we had was 1/24. Secret to making it work was slowing it down.
Sir Dennis, Paper-patched lead ball and Blue Dot: I like that idea a lot. I will do that soon as I finish pestering the deer herd on next two weekends. I am letting some other hunters have the run of the farm except on Sat & Sun. Gives my old bones time to recover between episodes.
Yes, bled promptly, the meat was tasty for a mature buck in the rut. I saute'ed some diced tenderloin with onions and mushrooms for my supper tonight. It was to die for, said the buck.
smallfry, you have shown excellent judgement on the .450 Rigby thread. It deserves recognition by membership in the Knights of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood. Choose your sir name please.
That thread does have some interesting material that could be quoted here, to harken back to the days when the .458 WinMag needed defending. Much has been debunked since then.
Recognizing the greatness of the .458 WinMag does not have to be a chilling effect on commerce. Sure, it may sometimes stifle the sale of a lesser known .458-caliber rifle and ammunition, but it also spurs the proliferation of rifles for the .458 WinMag and its ammunition and components. And one can still own and play with all the others too. Have your cake and eat it too. I like your idea of turning an FN/SC/Portugal M70 .338 WinMag into a .458 WinMag. Now that I have realized it only takes an unblocking of the rear of the magazine and a shortening of the bolt-stop-ejector, I will do that too, soon as the GUNSMITH gets caught up on his backlog, for I have a .500 Jeffery languishing there at the GUNSHOP & SPA FOR WAYWARD RIFLES. That one is just for fun, not a serious rifle like any .458 WinMag is. I need the GUNSMITH to re-barrel the M70 .338 to .458 WinMag. I can do the magazine unblocking and bolt-stop-ejector shortening myself if need be. Even a late model .30-06 M70 can be used by adding on the bolt face enlargement by GUNSMITH. No milling of action bridge needed for up to 3.6" COL.
Sir Ron, thank you. I’ve always had a soft spot for the 458 Win mag, it was my second centerfire rifle cartridge when I was a kid. I had a pushfeed M70 and used it on everything when I lived in AK. I would like to build another and having no real love for the 338 I figured it would make a good donor. I will just have to decide on a finished diameter for my contour and sights. Sir smallfry
I have some .454 soft lead balls that I have put aside for use for potential squib or double/triple ball loads in a .454 Casull lever action and in my .458 Win. I plan to powder coat them twice to see if I can get them to .457" or .458," which still might be too small. I don't have a sizer to bump them up to .459" or so.
I disagree ! And I've killed at least 28 deer with the 458 Winchester. Head or high neck or double lung from broadside. Those are good impacts on deer with a 458. In my experience.
Trick is , don't flinch. I know, easier said than done much of the time. The secret is to shoot the 458 a LOT. 🤔😁 Not just going out and blazing away till a box of ammo is gone and a guy wants nothing to do with the rifle. It also helps if the only rifle a guy owns is a 458 Winchester and he's broke and actually Needs to get meat. Plus it helps if on occasion a guy Has to shoot for his life. That puts a little recoil into perspective. My current and forever 458 I have in the neighborhood of 2,000 rounds of mostly full power or factory or above old book ammo thru. It's killed a bunch of deer in my hands and 1 in a friend's hands. My favorite deer load in the 458 is ( I have to admit it ) WW 510 gr factory ammo. The sub 2,000 fps stuff. With the big blue lead nose. It also works Great for dumping brown bear up close if needed. It's mostly just nostalgia why I like that load so much for deer. But also , it's easy on the meat. No blood shocked and ruined venison. Just don't hit any big bones with it !
Hell of a deal on that buck Sir Ron! nice job Sir, i have the same in mind with the mighty 458 WM+
Sir Jerry, Your 450-grain TSX load at 2418 fps from your .458 WM+ Beauty will no doubt leave a good blood trail from whatever angle you hit the vitals. I look forward to your images of dead deer.
I stopped by the local emporium and there was a Happy Hunter getting the disembodied head of his buck B&C scored. I overheard that it went 150-yards after being shot with a .300 WinMag and there was no blood trail initially, though the buck was "double lunged" or shot through both lungs with a handloaded 180-gr TSX. It ran about 50 yards then turned 90 degrees and then started bleeding on ground for another 100 yards. Happy Hunter kindly texted me a couple of images of his deer on the spot at my request. There was an exit wound, through rib cage with no shoulder bone or heart hits. The deer was shot at close range, 60 to 70 yards. Happy Hunter estimated the weight was about 180 pounds on the hoof. I "unofficially" measured the rack outside spread and it was a hair over 20 inches (B&C uses inside spread, IIRC). It had a very symetrical 8-point set of antlers.
The.458 WM+ will more likely make that blood trail start right where the deer was standing when hit. The blood trail length may be zero yards long, or more, that's as precise as I can predict.
Sir Ron, you bet, i have four deer tags left over in Arkansas, i hit a nice 8pt with Saint Bagwell cut paper patches wrapped around a 475gr bullet from my 44-77 last Thursday, 60 yard shot in the clearcut, in left shoulder out right ribs, DRT, i cast these bullets soft at 40/1 alloy after thinking about what Digital Dan said and speaking with Kirk at Shiloh, if i head after heavier game i can certainly cast harder, all that said and four tags left, i'm headed to tag out tomorrow with the mighty 458 WM+, it's going to be a tough daylight to dark hunt, i'll report the outcome, one buck and three doe await the 450gr TSX's you gave me, 2400+ fps will give me a three hundred yard reach.
Trick is , don't flinch. I know, easier said than done much of the time. The secret is to shoot the 458 a LOT. 🤔😁 Not just going out and blazing away till a box of ammo is gone and a guy wants nothing to do with the rifle. It also helps if the only rifle a guy owns is a 458 Winchester and he's broke and actually Needs to get meat. Plus it helps if on occasion a guy Has to shoot for his life. That puts a little recoil into perspective.
Sir CTF;
I like this a lot! Had I seen it before, I would have quoted it in my latest blog... but will next time with due credit to you!
Welcome to the Square Table. No. 4 Sporter is lightest, and length no more than 23", but 22" would be optimum with such a light contour, considering wall thickness at muzzle.. No. 5 Sporter is best, 24" to 25". No. 6 Sporter contour would be the heavy weight. I used to wonder about fluting a No. ^6 but that would probably be silly, and interfere with barrel-sights. 1:14" twist is optimum, but 1:10" to 1:20" may be considered for special purposes ... nah.
I disagree ! And I've killed at least 28 deer with the 458 Winchester. Head or high neck or double lung from broadside. Those are good impacts on deer with a 458. In my experience.
Sir Spruce's opinion is held in high esteem, considering his level of experience in hunting deer with the .458 WM.
Head is great if range is close and you don't care about skull and antler preservation.
High neck, good at close range. I have killed deer at 50 yards with a .40-cal. flintlock roundball and a neck shot. That is a .395-caliber, 93.5-grain projectile at about 2000 fps (accuracy load of 40 grains FFFg) in a 41.5" barrel. The rifle was built by MASTER GUNSMITH AND MECHANICAL ENGINEER Rusty McGee in the J. P. Beck style, like the rifle that Beck presented to President George Washington.
Double lung from broadside: The high heart shot is exactly that.
Sir Ron, you bet, i have four deer tags left over in Arkansas, i hit a nice 8pt with Saint Bagwell cut paper patches wrapped around a 475gr bullet from my 44-77 last Thursday, 60 yard shot in the clearcut, in left shoulder out right ribs, DRT, i cast these bullets soft at 40/1 alloy after thinking about what Digital Dan said and speaking with Kirk at Shiloh, if i head after heavier game i can certainly cast harder, all that said and four tags left, i'm headed to tag out tomorrow with the mighty 458 WM+, it's going to be a tough daylight to dark hunt, i'll report the outcome, one buck and three doe await the 450gr TSX's you gave me, 2400+ fps will give me a three hundred yard reach.
Sir Jerry, I hope you have a team with machinery to get those carcasses processed or you are going to kill yourself with 4 deer in a day. Send pictures !
I got skunked Saturday and rained out Sunday last. I share the hunting privileges on the farm with a father and son team that are family friends of my old buddy. He passed on and his daughter sees to his old buddies. The father and son duo are quite accomplished in deer hunting and firearms. I was there first, but they have taken over the place quite nicely.
So I was quite puzzled as to why the young son, barely 20 y.o., was shooting MatchKing 150-grainers in his .308 WCF. Handloaded by his father ! Component bullets being hard to come by is the only idea I have about it, even though that is not a good excuse. Heck, shoot cast bullets at slower velocity and closer range !
But it made for some interesting activities Saturday with the young fellow hunting deer on the south side of the farm, while I stayed on the north side. The young fellow shot his first deer at 7 y.o. with a .30-06 from a ground blind with his Grandfather's assist. Below is the "Young Fellow" or "Other Hunter" sharing the place with me Saturday last. He said he has done most of his shooting at longish ranges, and I guess that is the reason he has been getting by with it, on perfect broadsides at 150 to 250 yards. Saturday he killed a doe with one such shot. Then about 45 minutes later he shot a buck at 260 yards, quartering away. Hit behind the left ribs with bullet aimed for the vitals, the deer did not go down, and a second rapid shot hit the deer in the left ham as it was moving away. Thus was the buck gutshot and hamshot:
Look closely and you will see the entrance wound on the neck, the third shot with 150-grain MatchKing, that finished the buck 5 hours after wounding, as it lay in the woods, not quite bled out, unable to get up.
What follows below is a tale of travail with a whitetail buck and a bullet that brings no luck, no matter how well placed.
I helped my young fellow sharecropper at the deer farm to get his deer out of the woods. I went home and got a couple of boxes of old bullets for his Daddy to handload instead of MatchKings.
Trick is , don't flinch. I know, easier said than done much of the time. The secret is to shoot the 458 a LOT. 🤔😁 Not just going out and blazing away till a box of ammo is gone and a guy wants nothing to do with the rifle. It also helps if the only rifle a guy owns is a 458 Winchester and he's broke and actually Needs to get meat. Plus it helps if on occasion a guy Has to shoot for his life. That puts a little recoil into perspective.
Sir CTF;
I like this a lot! Had I seen it before, I would have quoted it in my latest blog... but will next time with due credit to you!
I think I should get a 500 gr mold. Or there abouts . Seems like a 500 gr book it at 1400 fps. Would be fun shooting. And would provide sufficient Thump if something needed thumped. Plus it would make a fun , easy recoiling load. All it takes is time. And primers !
Sir Ron, you bet, i have four deer tags left over in Arkansas, i hit a nice 8pt with Saint Bagwell cut paper patches wrapped around a 475gr bullet from my 44-77 last Thursday, 60 yard shot in the clearcut, in left shoulder out right ribs, DRT, i cast these bullets soft at 40/1 alloy after thinking about what Digital Dan said and speaking with Kirk at Shiloh, if i head after heavier game i can certainly cast harder, all that said and four tags left, i'm headed to tag out tomorrow with the mighty 458 WM+, it's going to be a tough daylight to dark hunt, i'll report the outcome, one buck and three doe await the 450gr TSX's you gave me, 2400+ fps will give me a three hundred yard reach.
Sir Jerry, I hope you have a team with machinery to get those carcasses processed or you are going to kill yourself with 4 deer in a day. Send pictures !
I got skunked Saturday and rained out Sunday last. I share the hunting privileges on the farm with a father and son team that are family friends of my old buddy. He passed on and his daughter sees to his old buddies. The father and son duo are quite accomplished in deer hunting and firearms. I was there first, but they have taken over the place quite nicely.
So I was quite puzzled as to why the young son, barely 20 y.o., was shooting MatchKing 150-grainers in his .308 WCF. Handloaded by his father ! Component bullets being hard to come by is the only idea I have about it, even though that is not a good excuse. Heck, shoot cast bullets at slower velocity and closer range !
But it made for some interesting activities Saturday with the young fellow hunting deer on the south side of the farm, while I stayed on the north side. The young fellow shot his first deer at 7 y.o. with a .30-06 from a ground blind with his Grandfather's assist. Below is the "Young Fellow" or "Other Hunter" sharing the place with me Saturday last. He said he has done most of his shooting at longish ranges, and I guess that is the reason he has been getting by with it, on perfect broadsides at 150 to 250 yards. Saturday he killed a doe with one such shot. Then about 45 minutes later he shot a buck at 260 yards, quartering away. Hit behind the left ribs with bullet aimed for the vitals, the deer did not go down, and a second rapid shot hit the deer in the left ham as it was moving away. Thus was the buck gutshot and hamshot:
Look closely and you will see the entrance wound on the neck, the third shot with 150-grain MatchKing, that finished the buck 5 hours after wounding, as it lay in the woods, not quite bled out, unable to get up.
What follows below is a tale of travail with a whitetail buck and a bullet that brings no luck, no matter how well placed.
Crapola Sir Ron, i was informed an hour ago work is going to get in the way of my days planned activities, the 1 ton will remain loaded, maybe i can fire her up and head out in the morning, yes, butcher bud hangs my deer in his cooler for five days, really drains the blood out and breaks down the fibers for some really tender meat, i have him leave the loins whole, he runs them thorough a cactus roller LOL, after that they nearly fall apart in your plate!
You'll get on those deer, that sucks about the 150 SMK, glad the buck was recovered, have an old deceased bud that killed a million deer over the decades with his M-14 loaded with 165gr SMK's, never heard or saw any problems from him, all goes back to what i've believed for 35 years, when in doubt, load a Partition ; ]
I think I should get a 500 gr mold. Or there abouts . Seems like a 500 gr book it at 1400 fps. Would be fun shooting. And would provide sufficient Thump if something needed thumped. Plus it would make a fun , easy recoiling load. All it takes is time. And primers !
I killed a Bull Bison that scored 70 1/4 SCI with a 525 grain flat point hard cast flat out out of a 6" barreled 500 Linebaugh. Shot him through the heart bullet exited. Blood poured out of the entrance hole. Velocity 1090 FPS Hard cast work even on large animals
I think I should get a 500 gr mold. Or there abouts . Seems like a 500 gr book it at 1400 fps. Would be fun shooting. And would provide sufficient Thump if something needed thumped. Plus it would make a fun , easy recoiling load. All it takes is time. And primers !
Thus was the Nikon BDC reticle of the SlugHunter 3-9x40mm checked, using BC of 0.380 for the pig with lipstick. It worked well. The classic 500-ish-grainer at 1400-ish fps is certainly a useful load in the .458 WinMag.
“ Remember, with proper alloy the RN turns into an FN upon impact.” And instantly goes nose heavy thus keeps nose forward inside the animal. This is how rn soft lead works where rn hard solids fail.
“ Remember, with proper alloy the RN turns into an FN upon impact.” And instantly goes nose heavy thus keeps nose forward inside the animal. This is how rn soft lead works where rn hard solids fail.
Sir Dennis,
Agreed ! I start the next page with a perfect bullet for the .458 WInMag, It is a 525-gr FNGC of .461" diameter and about 1950 fps MV, cast in 92-5-2-1 alloy that is 25 BHN when water-dropped, softens to about 21 BHN with PC-painting, and is sized to .461" as the gas check is applied. It gets harder with age over a month, and returns to BHN 25. It is not brittle like Linotype, and it is harder and heavier than Linotype. Might work for Sir Spruce for deer load at 1400-ish fps with 36 gr of AA-5744, or be as satisfying as his 510-gr RNSP at 2000 fps, if loaded with 65 gr of AA-2230.
Saint Bagwell proved the 480-gr FN "Lyman PH" at 1300 fps will do all if one can shoot as well as he did with his Sharps 1874 .45-70 Govt.
So here is the .458 WinMag equivalent bullet for use at 1400 to 2000 fps. Keeping it under 2000 fps will assure the alloy is not overstressed on impact, and accuracy will not suffer:
1400 fps to 2000 fps makes the 525-grainer very friendly to shooter's shoulder.
5 other bullets were tested with same powder charge, shown below alongside the 525-gr FNGC, all with 23" McGowen barrel:
Looking back at the 500-ish-grain Government bullet, and making allowance for temperature differences, shortening COL from 3.500" to 3.375" with same powder charge results in about 30 fps MV increase. Similar effects should be considered with the other cast bullets. Longer COL will require more powder to equal the shorter COL velocity.
Here are the other 5 bullets for group at 50 yards:
500-gr +/- 25-gr weights for cast bullets all work well when sized to 0.461"and velocities are 1400 fps to 2000 fps.
Of course it is possible to use heavier cast bullets at either slower or faster velocities than that. A 400-ish grainer at 2100 to 2200 fps MV is an optimized load too, with PC-paint, gas check, hard alloy, and smokeless powder.
Cast bullet loads for the SAAMI .458 WinMag (unlike for the SAAMI .458 Lott) could be discussed [I}ad infinitum[/I}.
Very nice shooting. I will look and see if I can find my old target with three 45-70 rounds in the same hole - give you something to work toward.
One nice thing about big bores - more than one shot is rarely needed.-- on anything. 45-90 WCF with 350 NF SS loaded to somewhere between 2400 fps and ???? Chrony tests will tell.
Don't want to split the baby with a 500-ish-grain cast bullet at 1400 to 2000 fps ? How about a 400-ish-grainer (497-gr) and a 600-ish-grainer (579-gr) that can both be used with the same sight setting ?
The shooter takes credit for groups that have more than one hole. It is interesting that the 579-grainer at 200 yards is almost as tightly grouped as it was at 100 yards. Now I need to go shoot some 400-gr TSX bullets from Buffalo Bore, in the same rifle that liked the Dynamic Duo of cast lead bullets. I will hunt deer with cast bullets after I get rid of those. I have several moulds from both AM and NOE that I have not tried yet. Might be able to add a few posts to the thread with those.
U don't have to Credit me Sir Bob. It's funny that people think of smaller carts as all around. But when the only rifle a guy has is the most important one. The one that has the best chance of keeping him from being turned into bear poop. That becomes an all arounder. And as The Spruce King weighs 8 lbs 9 oz with 4 rounds of 350 gr ammo and a 1" nylon strap sling . Express sights. It is easy to pack around. With that same setup. One time I off hand , no sticks, dumped a good size for Sitka Blacktail on the beach by Ole Crik on the Chichagof side of Peril Strait in January. Last hunt before the end of the season that year. 178 full paces away. Pretty sure I was shooting the 350 gr Speer. But it might have been X bullets . MV was 2550 fps. I know modern hunters like to shoot things WAY FAR AWAY . But practicality dictates that sometimes, you do your best with the shot that's offered. Just practice, practice, practice.
Sir John; That's good to know. There's a band of bison hanging around a couple miles from my house. ! Lots of bufflers in the Deltana area. It would only be right to take one with a duplicate of an old buffalo bullet.
Sir Ron ; Sad for the unlucky bullet buck. Glad he was found and dispatched. Good on you to assist with the search.
Very good shot with a flintlock at 50 yards. With a 41" barrel. WOW.!!! Two thumbs up !
I'm concentrating on my homestead currently . We had our first 40 below of the winter this morning. Currently around 25 underneath. It hasn't been above 0 for 3 weeks, maybe a month. The house handled the cold okay for not being completed. I have several more days on the 8x10 Arctic Entry and it will be tight with walls partly insulated. ( Using Insulated Metal Panels for the wall sheathing/siding . Approx R 14 ) Need to go to the woods first and bring home a couple cord of beattle killed white spruce for firewood.
Then I can settle in and get to work on some of my other projects. Like getting Spruce King up and running . And order a mold . Along with building double walls and sistering on 2x6s to the 2x8 rafters in the bedroom. And blowing lots of cellulose insulation. Sheetrocking , building a water system, wiring the house, Logging and milling the lumber for the garage build this summer.
I didn't think getting old would be this much work 🤨 But, Thank God I can do it. !!
I sure do enjoy this thread which is encylopediac in it's scope. But Much more informative and entertaining.
You are living it while I can only watch it on TV on NatGeo's "Life Below Zero." I envy you the life style. I can only make do down south and dream of returning north.
I got skunked by the does. Seems I only get them in range of my tripod when a buck chases them to me. The father&son team have trained the does to stay on the south side of the farm while I am in the north. I had a couple of small bucks, over the last two weekends, wander within 100 yards of my tripod. One of them I followed with my 9X crosshairs from 579 yards out, soon seeing the spike antlers as he approached. The other was a fork horn. My buck tag has been filled for the year.
At midday on the one day when no one else was there, I walked over to the Square Woods and a half dozen does flashed their tails going away from me into the woods. I hiked around the 20-acre patch of old timber, never-ever logged before, I'd guess. I noted a deer feeder on one side of the woods, a permanent "hard" ground blind, and a ladder stand against a tree on other sides of the timber. More whitetails flashing, going away from the other side of the Square Woods. So I walked into the woods and crept around for a couple of hours, noting the profusion of deer bedding and deer crap. I was about to exit, headed north to my tripod, just standing with my rifle slung, staring north, when my left peripheral vision detected motion.
I turned my head and there was a big doe picking her way silently toward me, 50 feet away, no more !!! She must have seen my movement to shoulder the rifle and immediately leaped and turned 90 degrees and pronked away through the woods. I was able to get my scope on her as she raced away so I will just count that as coup on a doe instead of a bullet deflected by brush, or buried in a tree trunk. My trophy to remind of that swinging of the MIGHTY .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM DEER RIFLE is a sapling killed by a buck rub, snapped off by hand not chopped or sawed, from the woods where I counted coup on a doe, my coup stick. Also a sturdy enough walking stick for packing in and packing out.
Late Muzzleloader season is coming and I have three doe tags. The father&son do not do muzzleloaders. I will have the run of the place. The CVA Paramount .45-cal will be used, of course. It has .450" bore and .462" groove, 1:22" twist. Uses Blackhorn 209 and an F-215 primer.
It could re-create the old paper-patch-bullet loads of Whitworth, Metford, and Gibbs. But I will have to stick with the Power Belt ELR version for now. That is a .450"-diameter bullet of soft lead, copper plated and plastic skirted, that obturates into .462" grooves !
A soft lead, 0.442"-diameter, slick bullet, paper-patched up to .450" bore (muzzle-loaded) and weighing 500-ish grains might do well in the CVA Paramount, like the old .45-bore ML loads targeted to 1000 yards, ancestors to the MIGHTY .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM. Or the Lyman "Volunteer" .451"/450-gr might work as a grease-lubed muzzleloader bullet in the CVA Paramount. See top of this page.
The Woodleigh bullet factory in Australia just burnt down and rumours are that Geoff won't be rebuilding it...
It appears this is an end of an era...
Very, very sad...
Russ
Vey, very sad ... Amen. I have tried googling for a story on this and can't find anything. I will surely miss them if they are gone. Giving up on finding anymore of the HYDRO or PPSN Weldcore bullets ... for now. Sure hope they make a comeback.
Late Muzzleloader season is coming and I have three doe tags. The father&son do not do muzzleloaders. I will have the run of the place. The CVA Paramount .45-cal will be used, of course. It has .450" bore and .462" groove, 1:22" twist. Uses Blackhorn 209 and an F-215 primer.
It could re-create the old paper-patch-bullet loads of Whitworth, Metford, and Gibbs. But I will have to stick with the Power Belt ELR version for now. That is a .450"-diameter bullet of soft lead, copper plated and plastic skirted, that obturates into .462" grooves !
A soft lead, 0.442"-diameter, slick bullet, paper-patched up to .450" bore (muzzle-loaded) and weighing 500-ish grains might do well in the CVA Paramount, like the old .45-bore ML loads targeted to 1000 yards, ancestors to the MIGHTY .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM. Or the Lyman "Volunteer" .451"/450-gr might work as a grease-lubed muzzleloader bullet in the CVA Paramount. See top of this page.
I’ll be using my Ultimate ML with 300 grain Parker Black Maxes and 120 grains of BH209 By weight. It’s like a single shot 375 kicking those big 300’s down range.
I’ll be using my Ultimate ML with 300 grain Parker Black Maxes and 120 grains of BH209 By weight. It’s like a single shot 375 kicking those big 300’s down range.
Sir Scotty,
Very interesting. Is that a Remington 700 UML .50-cal sabot load or something custom, actually .375-cal ? 120-gr weight is about 180-gr volume of BH 209 which should do adequate motivating of a 300-grainer down range.
I am ignorant on the Parker Black Max 300-grainer but googled and found a .451-caliber 300-grainer, and they make various bullets and weights and calibers for with and without sabot use. The Parker web site said they make a bullet by special order to fit the CVA Paramount, and somewhere along the way I saw that entailed bumping the bullet up to +.453" in the manufacturing for subsequent sizing to fit by user. Oh well, when I run out of Power Belts I'll try Parker.
I am tending now to want to try a home-cast 530-grain slick of soft lead to patch from about .442" to about +.450", propelled by about 44 grains by weight of BH209 to about 1300 to 1400 fps MV, which ought to be about 28,000 PSI.
In the MIGHTY .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM BPCR, or .45-70 Elko Magnum (aka .45-100-2.6" Winchester Throated): I would start with a slick of about .450" diameter, made of 20:1 alloy, and patch it up to groove diameter, use a wad or filler over same 44-gr by weight of BH209, for about same pressure and velocity as in the muzzleloader. That seems to be what works for paper-patched in the One with the Long Throat.
That is the Remington 700 UML RC. It is a beast of a rifle and accurate as heck.
I use the 300 grain Black Max's with the sabot in mine. I will say Parkers are one of the best for accuracy and absolutely a devil on game performance. Gunner will laugh as he continues pounding bucks with his 58 caliber roundballs, but I like the UML for what I am doing with it. I'll try to get a picture of it up for you to see. I plan on checking it out after work tonight to make sure it is all squared up and ready to hunt.
This is the rifle. It had a nice laminate on it but it felt more like a bench gun that a hunting rifle. Added the McMillan and it’s much more lively for me.
Here is the Parkers
Tonight I was kinda rushed since it gets so dark that I wanted to drop back a little from my 120 grain by Weight load to see if I could still get adequate accuracy from the rifle. I worked backwards shooting 120-110-100
After seeing 100 grains by weight shot pretty well, I made a dope change and strapped the Magnetospeed to it to make sure I didn’t turn it in to a complete wimp.
Registered 2178 FPS.
Then I loaded one more to check zero without the Magnetospeed on the gun. It was about as centered as I could make it. I packed it up, reprimed my brass. Filled up 5 tubes with powder and put it away.
I was wondering what my ballistics looked like downrange and ran the numbers of .377 and 2178FPS.
Pretty sure that’ll work for some squirrely white tails!
I’ll be using my Ultimate ML with 300 grain Parker Black Maxes and 120 grains of BH209 By weight. It’s like a single shot 375 kicking those big 300’s down range.
Sir Scotty,
Very interesting. Is that a Remington 700 UML .50-cal sabot load or something custom, actually .375-cal ? 120-gr weight is about 180-gr volume of BH 209 which should do adequate motivating of a 300-grainer down range.
I am ignorant on the Parker Black Max 300-grainer but googled and found a .451-caliber 300-grainer, and they make various bullets and weights and calibers for with and without sabot use. The Parker web site said they make a bullet by special order to fit the CVA Paramount, and somewhere along the way I saw that entailed bumping the bullet up to +.453" in the manufacturing for subsequent sizing to fit by user. Oh well, when I run out of Power Belts I'll try Parker.
I am tending now to want to try a home-cast 530-grain slick of soft lead to patch from about .442" to about +.450", propelled by about 44 grains by weight of BH209 to about 1300 to 1400 fps MV, which ought to be about 28,000 PSI.
In the MIGHTY .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM BPCR, or .45-70 Elko Magnum (aka .45-100-2.6" Winchester Throated): I would start with a slick of about .450" diameter, made of 20:1 alloy, and patch it up to groove diameter, use a wad or filler over same 44-gr by weight of BH209, for about same pressure and velocity as in the muzzleloader. That seems to be what works for paper-patched in the One with the Long Throat.
That sounds pretty cool with the 45-100 RC. I bet that’d shoot through a tree! One of those 530’s at 1300-1400 should leave a mark!
If I get a chance tomorrow I’ll like up some water jugs and see how they do. I haven’t used the 300 grain on a buck yet but the other Parkers were whitetail poison. Fast expansion but with enough mass to usually always exit.
RC, Not familiar with your ML but I’ve been using my Savage 10ML for many years. Using Hornady .458” 300gr HPs or Barnes Original 300gr soft points. They’ll do quite a number on most game when pushed from 2200fps or above. Also use the Hornady .452” SST in 300grs which puts deer down really well.
Great stuff, whether .50 sabot properly fitted for .451", .452" or .458" bullets, it is all good. The .45-caliber CVA Paramount Is different in needing a bore-size bullet without sabot. Maybe a PC painted, grease-grooved bullet with grease lube over paint could substitute for paper patch, either way with diameter about bore size, and soft alloy, to bump up to groove diameter. The CVA borrows a lot from the forerunner Savage and Remington for smokeless ML loading yet harkens back to the Creedmoor era muzzleloaders, regarding bullet and bore & groove diameters.
The .45-cal Power Belt ELR has been sold as a 280- or 285-grainer. Actual weight I checked was closer to 291 grains, plastic-tipped and plastic skirted, like a badminton birdie. Advertised BC was supposed to be .452, CVA testing said BC was .333 for G1.
Any who, 98.0 gr by weight of the BH209 in my rifle produced 2180 fps at 5-yards with the 291-gr Power Skirt bullet. For a 5-shot string, at 41*F all 5 shots measured 2180 fps.
I did locate the right barrel 50 yard target---- IIRC, the left barrel target had 2 in 1 + a flyer.. Now a collectors item as DR going to gun maker this weekend to have chambers extended to 45-90 and to be regulated with 45-90. More fun soon as I can use Pressure Trace II on the 90 ammo in my 1886. Also will be fun to see how the 45-70 regulates after 90 regulation. May add "&.45-90 Express" to barrel stamping.
Sir Charles, Yep, those .45-bores have been tops at long range shooting since the muzzle-loaders of the 1850s. The BPCR single loaders continued that trend and added the hunting feather to the .45-bore warbonnet, and the .45-bore DR sealed the deal with development of the Nitro Express DGR. Finally, the .458 Winchester Magnum came along to do it all, even better.
Sir Dennis, Dead right there ? Was that a high shoulder shot that shocked the spine, or was it just a collapse due to deer not being able to run on hind legs only ? They do not go far with both shoulders broken.
Remember, if the .458 Winchester Magnum is loaded to same length and same pressure as the SAAMI .458 Lott, the Lott loses. Both with 24" pressure barrels by same maker, tested in Hornady ballistics lab: The SAAMI .458 Lott at 62,500 PSI and 3.600" COL with a 500-grain Hornady bullet resulted in 2250 fps MV. The SAAMI .458 WM at 60,000 PSI and 3.340" COL with same 500-grain Hornady bullet resulted in 2200 fps MV. Load the same .458 WM to 3.600" COL and 62,500 PSI and you get +2300 fps MV, and you call it the .458 WM+. You cannot do that with the .458 Lott unless it is a wildcat like Jack Lott built, with a longer throat. Why not just wildcat the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum by simply loading it to longer COL ? It already has the proper throat.
I am taking the CVA Paramount to THE GUNSMITH tomorrow to have him use his pin gages to measure bore diameter. One internet pilgrim said he was told by CVA that it was supposed to be 0.449" bore diameter. The pilgrim says his bore measured 0.452". I measured my groove diameter at 0.462". Either paper-patched or grease-grooved bullet ought to be about 0.001" to 0.002" bigger than bore, for a bit of resistance on ramming the bullet down the barrel. I will gitterdun, with 530- to 550-gr PP bullet, but until then will be using the "291-gr/.45-cal ELR Power Skirt" bullet with BC of 0.333 at 2192 fps MV, for the upcoming late ML deer season. The .458 WinMag is tricky to pass off as a muzzleloader.
HANDLOADER December 2021 No. 335 The "WILDCAT CARTRIDGES" column by Layne Simpson, pp. 22-25: ".450 Watts"
Simpson claims to have dug deep in researching this cartridge. Besides my thinking that the title should be ".450 Watts Magnum" as the cartridge was copyrighted in 1950, I was appalled by a factual error in the second sentence of the article. Simpson claimed that James Watts became a resident of Alaska in 1936. Nope. It was 1938. This does not inspire confidence in Layne Simpson's deep dive into the .450 Watts Magnum.
Based on the Cal Pappas book interview of James Watts, James A. Watts rode a Santa Fe Trailways bus from Kansas to Seattle, WA in mid 1938, then took steerage on a ship to Seward, AK and then another boat to Valdez, AK. In the summer of 1938 he hiked to Fairbanks and spent about a year working there. In the summer of 1939 he hiked from Fairbanks back to Valdez. Along the way, in summer 1939, his .45 Long Colt was swiped off his waist by the claws of a charging grizzly he had just shot with a .375 H&H M70.
The .45 LC and the .375 H&H conceived a baby in 1939, with James Watts eventually delivering it. It was a 10-year gestation. The first functioning .450 Watts Magnum was on an FN Mauser. Born in year 1949.
Watts had been writing Winchester with his suggestion for necking the .375 H&H up to .450-bore since the end of WW II. Surely his first rejection letter came no later than 1946. He wrote again to Winchester in 1947, and the second time they did not even answer him.
I was below him essentially ground level standing in a hole in a cutbank and he was on a rise. Maybe 70 yards so pretty good angle. In at top of heart level and out mid shoulder. Ran 40 yards. Good blood trail.
I was below him essentially ground level standing in a hole in a cutbank and he was on a rise. Maybe 70 yards so pretty good angle. In at top of heart level and out mid shoulder. Ran 40 yards. Good blood trail.
Sir Dennis, makes sense, good as it gets, like shooting deer from a foxhole, you ol' fox. I might consider digging a pit blind for deer.
Interesting new powder noted in article in HANDLOADER December 2021 No. 335 pp. 4-7, Propellant Profiles department by Randy Bimson "ALLIANT RELODER TS 15.5"
TS-15.5 is a Temperature Stable (TS) powder incorporating "TZ technology" developed by Bofors of Sweden. It contains a proprietary de-coppering agent too. Burn rate is intermediate to RL-15 and RL-16, about like VARGET's speed. It is an extruded powder with "short cut" granules that should meter well. It is a double-base powder with low nitroglycerine content.
What is not to like? Alliant is trying to please.
It is excellent with heavy bullets in the .223 Rem (80-grainer at 2795 fps) and .308 WCF (200-grainer at 2535 fps) both in 24" barrels.
All the great powders developed lately for the .223 Rem are great in the .458 WinMag, easily producing 500-grainers at 2150 with no compression and sub 60,000 psi, just like the .458 WinMag could do back in 1955 with HiVel #2 powder, according to H. P. White Laboratory testing.
My CVA Paramount was measured. Bore admits a .452" pin but not a .453" pin. Groove diameter is 0.462", 1:22" twist. Might be called a .452" bore diameter just like the internet pilgrim said. A Parker bullet of .453" diameter makes sense for that, and any sizing down would come from the ramrod. Soft lead, grease-grooved or paper-patched, sized to .454" might work too. That would be a good substitute for trying to pass off the .458 WinMag as a muzzleloader. But, hey, if a Sharps 1874 can be Gemmer-ized by hanging a ramrod under the barrel, so could a Winchester Model 70. All aspects of riflery may eventually be accomplished with a .458 WinMag.
Well I did have a plan. Passed on this deer first day at 15 yards with his chest and throat in the scope of my 260. We are having some warm weather and it just didn’t feel right to pull the trigger. Second day the Whitworth begged and I listened. Was back in the same general spot but this deer having been fooled day one, was I think looking for me before he approach his bedding area. So he was clearing his approach angles with his nose. I was sitting in that hole looking down on the creek East trying to intercept him earlier in his route. He was circling around in the tall grass prairie and walked right up behind me, putting his feet at my head level. When my scent hit his nose he blew, whirled and ran west. I counted 3 and stood and turned centered him n the scope. Because he really had not seen me, just full load smelled me, when he turned south towards the bedding are he stopped and looked towards where he had located me. Since the old 458wm was hungry and the night would be cold enough to hang, I fed her by pressing the trigger. Thump, he took two jumps then hit the top wire on his third jump and I saw him for a few more jumps before the topography obscured him. I thought I heard him fall but my ears are not what hey used to be. Gathered my gear and headed to where he jumped the fence. He blew blood heavily when he jumped and down slope 30-40 yards more he was piled up. Coming back with my Jet sled to drag him out with, I came across a gut shot die that some other hunters had wounded the night before. The landowner had told me the story that morning so i knew immediately what was up when the poor thing tried to take a step. She was about 175 yards away and I did what needed done and let the landowner know where the hunters could find her. I shot her deliberately high shoulder and she was drt. I aggravated an old groin / leg adductor injury with the pressure of the pulling rope which I foolishly had put at waist level and am laid up on ice and ibuprofen. Lots of memories and good stories but age and scar tissue wins in the end it seems. Best regards,
Sir Dennis, Buy a donkey for the details. I suffer from old connective tissue too. I packed mine out in 50-pound chunks on my back with an old freighter pack I used in the late 1980s in Alaska. I could handle 100 pounds back then, but to quote the raven, nevermore.
Still working on the idea of Gemmerizing a Winchester M70 .458 WinMag: Ramrod hung under barrel with brass fittings. Patch box inletted into buttstock. New priming system for muzzleloader: F-215 primer in an empty .458 WM is chambered before powder and bullet are loaded from the muzzle. Powder can be real BP or any BP substitute for 100% fill of the primed case. The off-the-shelf Parker 300-gr/.451" aerodynamic wonder bullet would be a perfect fit in the .450"-bore/ .458"- to .459"-groove of the SAAMI .458 WinMag with Blackhorn 209, ~ 100 grains by weight. For real BP, better use paper patch or grease-groove bullets from 480-gr to 550-gr, properly sized as previously mentioned.
A question about the relationship, if any, between H4895 and AA5744 in producing the same MV in a .458 Win. Since I've purchased some heavyweights (600g, 550g and 500g) as mentioned in yesterday's blog, my intent is to push them out the barrel of my #1 Ruger about 1850 fps for the 500, 1800 fps for the 550g and 1750 fps for the 600g (That's 100 fps faster than initially thought). I will likely start with about 64 grains of H4895 in each. What would be an approximate equivalent in results from AA5744?
My thinking is to give a fair try of each powder for accuracy. Of course, 5744 would result in less recoil.
To put a face on this: I'm planning a spring bear hunt over bait in the newly logged out area (That will be somewhat detailed in my next blog). Range will be somewhere between 65 to 85 yards.
Thanks for any suggestions.
We've had real winter conditions here for the past couple of weeks.
That is an excellent idea. From my previous testing with 400-gr to 600-gr bullets using H4895, I think your 64.0-gr charge will be perfect with your 500-gr to 600-gr jacketed bullets if you use the same seating depth for all of them, and make that 0.350". That is with or without extra cannelure, as long as you use your LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE.
The old "first generation" Hornady RNSN 500-grainer seated to 0.350" depth and 3.500" COL at 52*F:
64.0 grains of H4895 in my Ruger No. 1 with 24" factory barrel gave 1842 fps MV (corrected). 80.0 grains gave 2301 fps MV (my max). 61.0 grains gave 1746 fps MV (my min).
The Barnes Original 600-grainer seated to 0.350" depth and 3.700" COL at 48*F:
65.0 grains of H4895 in same Ruger No. 1 with 24" barrel gave 1810 fps MV (corrected) my minimum charge tried. 74.0 grains of H4895 gave 2051 fps MV, my maximum charge tried.
Same seating depth for all loads is important. Loading long helps unconfuse QuickLOAD and it is more accurate in predictions for the .458 Winchester Magnum. QuickLOAD makes no allowances for throat effects.
Here is what QuickLOAD says about 64.0 grains of H4895 compared to my reality above, same load specifics:
For the 550-gr Woodleigh, just use same 64.0 gr of H4895 or 48.0 grains of AA-5744 and interpolate. Should be pretty close to 1850 fps with 500-grainer 1800 fps with 550-grainer 1750 fps with 600-grainer.
And in honor of Sir Bob's hearing protection use while hunting, a portrait of The Magnificent Seven Special Operators, all in muffs, except Teddy who must be wearing plugs:
Thomas Jefferson, Ronald Reagan, George Washington, Donald Trump, Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and JFK according to artist Jon McNaughton.
I have tried to find 5744 powder to no avail, so I did my homework and found Shooters World Buffalo Rifle powder (Lovex D060-01). It is supposed to be identical to the earlier version of 5744 made by Lovex. It is relatively cheap still when you can find it. I scored a few pounds of it recently, and will give it a try. Some of you with 5744 data in the .458 could get some and compare.
Thank you very, very much for this! It's a confirmation. My intention is to load 64 grs of H4895 in each, and now 48 grs of 5744 and compare for accuracy. And all will be seated to the same depth.
Sir Bevan, That Buffalo Rifle by Lovex sounds good. I have always found AA-5744 at my local emporium. AA-5744 and H4895 are both great for reduced loads. AA-5744 is great for max loads with 250-gr bullets and H4895 is great for max loads with 400-gr to 750-gr bullets ! The mighty .458 WinMag could subsist well on those two powders only, but it is so exceedingly versatile with so many bullets and powders of all types ! More than I could shake a stick at.
Sir Bob, You now have more of those precious 600-gr B.O. bullets than I do. Save me some bullets by telling us what you get with the AA-5744. I have a pretty good idea how the H4895 is going to do. Mine were a perfect fit in the grooves of the Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag.
Sir Jerry did not want to get his beauteous .458 WM+ rained on so he took this after the whitetails yesterday:
That is a Pre-'64 M70 that was rebored from .270 WCF to .338-06 by JES. Another good recommendation for JES, it does 2800 fps with 210-gr Nosler Partitions and H380. Freshened up that barrel nicely !
I have a .338-06 Argentine M-98 in synthetic stock. I would load it to imitate the trajectory of whatever .458 WM load. Having a .458 WM is like having attention deficit disorder. There are so many good powders and bullets for it, always a new trick.
Speaking of new tricks, wear a neck gaiter if you have a white beard, so your face does not look like a deer's behind flashing a danger signal:
On the "Winchester M70 458 build" thread, Sir Larry came up with a term to describe a rifle with a Classic or FN M70 action for 7mm RM, .300 WinMag, or .338 WinMag that has been rebarreled to .375 H&H length cartridge, by merely unblocking back of box and shortening the ejector blade. A "Frankenstein."
He has observed that it ejects unfired, 3.600" COL cartridges run through the magazine, no problemo. Also loading through the unlengthened port is no problemo, just shove the rear ends of the cartridges into the rear end of the box and press them down. I like it, and that is how I would build a .458 WM+ with which to "open a can of whoop ass on a SAAMI .458 Lott" was/is my response.
This sort of lingo may be extended to a "Bride of Frankenstein" SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. Use the highly desirable Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action with bolt face opened up for the H&H case head, but leave magazine and ejector alone. If a virgin .458 barrel is used, the bride is honestly entitled to wear white. If a take-off CZ .458 WM barrel is used, the bride may wear whatever color she chooses.
We used to unblock the mag boxes and use the shorter ejector to make Make Mashburns and 3.6” 300 Wins. It’s so easy a Marine can do it without too much trouble or breaking much.
Sir Jerry did not want to get his beauteous .458 WM+ rained on so he took this after the whitetails yesterday:
That is a Pre-'64 M70 that was rebored from .270 WCF to .338-06 by JES. Another good recommendation for JES, it does 2800 fps with 210-gr Nosler Partitions and H380. Freshened up that barrel nicely !
I have a .338-06 Argentine M-98 in synthetic stock. I would load it to imitate the trajectory of whatever .458 WM load. Having a .458 WM is like having attention deficit disorder. There are so many good powders and bullets for it, always a new trick.
Speaking of new tricks, wear a neck gaiter if you have a white beard, so your face does not look like a deer's behind flashing a danger signal:
You bet Sir Ron, about an hour before dark it did indeed begin to rain more, if my 458 WM+ were to get a little wet in Africa tracking buffalo that'd be fine, but not on a little cow farm in Oklahoma hunting deer, that JES 338-06 rebore is one of my favorites for bad weather hunting, it's light as a feather and way more accurate than it needs to be, my 'Smith likes it too, while cerakoting all the metal, he threw in a stainless trigger adjusted to a clean 2lbs, LOL on the neck gaiter, great idea straight from the self preservation dept ; ]
We used to unblock the mag boxes and use the shorter ejector to make Make Mashburns and 3.6” 300 Wins. It’s so easy a Marine can do it without too much trouble or breaking much.
I done that right off the bat on my classic super grade 300 Win Mag, yes, very easy, 200gr partitions at 3.585" are perfect and shoot lights out.
We used to unblock the mag boxes and use the shorter ejector to make Make Mashburns and 3.6” 300 Wins. It’s so easy a Marine can do it without too much trouble or breaking much.
I done that right off the bat on my classic super grade 300 Win Mag, yes, very easy, 200gr partitions at 3.585" are perfect and shoot lights out.
It turns those silly 3.4 magazine'd 300 Win's and 7 Rem's into much more useful rifles that seem to be much easier to work with in my book.
And in honor of Sir Bob's hearing protection use while hunting, a portrait of The Magnificent Seven Special Operators, all in muffs, except Teddy who must be wearing plugs:
Thomas Jefferson, Ronald Reagan, George Washington, Donald Trump, Abe Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt and JFK according to artist Jon McNaughton.
Holy smokes, now that's a cool picture! Stole that one!
How much more performance can one get in a 3.6" vs a 3.3" 300 Win? I have a push feed Model 70 (last year before the CRF), and from the looks of it, the magazine could be unblocked the same way the CRFs can be.
How much more performance can one get in a 3.6" vs a 3.3" 300 Win? I have a push feed Model 70 (last year before the CRF), and from the looks of it, the magazine could be unblocked the same way the CRFs can be.
Well, I don't know about total FPS, but it allows the bullets to be started out near the lands. Most of the 300 Win chambers I have been around are quite long and seating to 3.4" really gives them a long way to jump which doesn't always hurt accuracy, but it does make it tougher to find accuracy sometimes with the 200+ grain bullets. Also, with a 3.6" mag box, I haven't really had much trouble getting 3100 from 180's and 3000 from 200's. I could do the same with the 3.4 box, but getting the seating node was a little tougher for me.
We used to unblock the mag boxes and use the shorter ejector to make Make Mashburns and 3.6” 300 Wins. It’s so easy a Marine can do it without too much trouble or breaking much.
Sir Scotty, Buy a donkey for further validation of the Frankenstein .458 WM+ concept. Even a Vietnam era Westpoint dropout USAF Flyboy can do it. Even a caveman can do it.
Glad you like the McNaughton. I too think it is the coolest thing he has done.
Sir Bevan, Ditto Sir Scotty on the .300 WinMag and PF conversion. I have not done one of those boltstops paired with plunger ejectors but it might even be simpler. All the rest is the same. The .300 WinMag has a leade-only throat, as do the .338 WinMag and .264 WinMag and .458 WinMag. Family trait. That said, I have a Ruger M77 Mk II .300 WinMag that is spooky accurate, no problems with that throat.
Sir Jerry has reported on some deer hunting Tuesday with his .458 WM+. The man has class.
"Trail through girls bedroom on the way to clearcut where I caught them shopping. Even the buzzards know a man carrying a .458 WM+ will have gut piles soon to follow. These birds were rewarded with three such piles today."
The second deer has a bigger exit wound, on shoulder I presume, and that might be some shoulder bone exit effects too:
The third deer moved as the trigger broke and looks like it nearly got cut in half, maybe the bullet motivated a big chunk of spine toward exit:
Entry points and range of impact would be interesting to know. I guess all the entry wounds look the same, about caliber size, tidy holes in hide, like the one on the deer I clobbered with a Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX at about 2350 fps MV.
The 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps of Sir Jerry's handload will expand better than a lesser sectional density bullet of same velocity. Even mo'better if both heavier for caliber AND faster at impact and same TSX-type HP.
I agree on the exit wound appearance.Certainly has the shape of a well expanded bullet with petal intact.
One has to appreciate a man that practices the principles of use enough gun and bullet. That is a thumper of a combination there.
The .458 WinMag does all very well indeed. The .458 WM+ does more. I just thought of using .458 Lott brass as the primer carrier for a muzzleloader, gemmerized .458 WM. Neck down the Lott brass to fit inside the .458 WM throat. What other good use is there for .458 Lott brass, besides cutting it off to 2.5" Length ? Old wishlist item is a fast-twist .458 WM with suppressor for subsonic and supersonic plinking with VLD bullets.
This thread does keep the 458 Winchester flame fed. I reminded me to check a new to me, near new New Haven, CRF M70 Super Express for feeding 500 grain Hornady factory loads. Feeds damn slick, as most M70’s that I have had association with. I certainly like the looks of this rifle.
The number of Lotts and Winchesters are now even in the safes. It is difficult not to like the 458 Winchester. Even though paper and rocks are all that I have shot with either the Winchester or Lott. There has only been a short break in not having a 458 Winchester for the past 20-25 years. That void was correct within a few months of absence.
I think those 350 grain North Fork Cup Point expanding solids are going to be my bullet of choice. I was unable to purchase the 400 grain. But, I don’t think these 350’s will lack in performance for North America. Those 402 grain Hammer bullets look very interesting also.
We used to unblock the mag boxes and use the shorter ejector to make Make Mashburns and 3.6” 300 Wins. It’s so easy a Marine can do it without too much trouble or breaking much.
Sir Scotty, Buy a donkey for further validation of the Frankenstein .458 WM+ concept. Even a Vietnam era Westpoint dropout USAF Flyboy can do it. Even a caveman can do it.
Glad you like the McNaughton. I too think it is the coolest thing he has done.
Holy smokes.. Now that is a great picture.. I could get away with having an ape like picture of me, but not even need to alter the picture
Jerry, awesome hunt buddy! Looks like you worked that 458 out properly! Man, you are hard to keep pace with big buddy!
Sir Jerry has reported on some deer hunting Tuesday with his .458 WM+. The man has class.
"Trail through girls bedroom on the way to clearcut where I caught them shopping. Even the buzzards know a man carrying a .458 WM+ will have gut piles soon to follow. These birds were rewarded with three such piles today."
Looks like mine which is electroless nickel plated and I have 2 stocks for it, walnut and plastic of course. A very practical .458 for any occasion.
Sir Woods, Aye, you have the most practical of rifles. For fun I like to think of ways to extend its range of applications, like trying it as a muzzle loader:
Before re-barreling a wondrous .458 WinMag to faster twist, for King of Two Mile competition, I figgered I should spiff up a disappointing .458 B&M that already has a 1:10" twist PAC NOR on it, by giving it a SAAMI .458 WinMag throat and loading it to a COL of 3.340". It will have the same net capacity and load capability as a .458 WM+ loaded to 3.6" COL. Thus shall be born the .458 BMW. Even with the 19.75" barrel length and 3.00" magazine length and rebated rim cases, it should serve as a surrogate for load trials, by single-shot loading. Hopefully the slightly fatter and shorter case of same gross capacity but with slight bottleneck does not cause any unpleasant surprises.
The Barnes data above is for .458 Lott with 26" barrel length. The .458 WM+ and .458 BMW ought to be capable of doing at least that with 24" barrels.
Sir Ron, many thanks for the pics and write up, doe 1 was hit very tight in the crease behind her left shoulder to exit flank, i wanted a clean hit to see if the big 450gr TSX would expand on such a light target, it did indeed as can be seen by the leather punch like pattern in the flank exit, range, 110 yards. Doe 2 was hit not as far back as i would like due to brush, i knew i was going to exit shoulder at the angle she was standing, fortunately not too much damage, range, 48 yards. Doe 3 was a cluster, any man here that's hunted a fair bit has had this happen, animal in weapon sight, committed to trigger pull, animals moves, OH SHIITTT!, BOOM, felt recoil...........all six of those actions happen at once, i ran over to have her look at me, one quick 300gr hard cast from the 454 at the base of the neck ended it, all within 30 seconds, range, 44 yards.
It was a hell of an exhausting fun day, my old butt dragging three deer out of a clear cut had me wishing for 35 years of age. i have one Arkansas buck tag left and iirc till the 19th of December to make it happen, there's a big tall wide and heavy horned 10pt that calls that area home, he may be holed up resting and eating after the rut.
Sir Larry, using this 458 WM+ on these light big game animals is perfect practice for Africa, i now know animals from the tiny 10 up to Buffalo and Hippo can be handled with 450gr TSX's at 24000+ fps, with a three inch high zero at 100 through the scope, large plains game can be easily had out to 300, pretty dang versatile setup.
LOL Big Scotty B, man it was a fun day, all three deer are hanging at butcher shop for 5 full days, he'll then work his magic getting them ready for the freezer, if i didn't mention it, all three dropped at the shot, not one step was taken.
Sir Jerry, Congratulations on your immediate successes. Excellent work as usual. You are ready for anything with your .458 WM+. Big buy a donkey for sharing the field test report.
Sir Jerry, Congratulations on your immediate successes. Excellent work as usual. You are ready for anything with your .458 WM+. Big buy a donkey for sharing the field test report.
Thank You Sir Ron, it remains my pleasure, as we all know, those Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solids at 2358+ fps held in reserve will easily handle anything else.
I would have zero hesitation about using the 458 on anything in North America. I believe in the “smoke ‘em if you got ‘em”. That 450 TSX at your velocity is definitely a performer. That hide exit certainly removes any doubt that bullet expanded. In my guesstimation, all bets are off to “the eat right up to the hole” once bone pieces are being flung around, regardless of bullet. I unzipped a coyote once, by a 338 Winchester 225 TSX traveling lengthwise down the spine. Coyote tenderloin was hanging 4’ high on spruce limbs behind him. Damnest hole I have ever seen.
You bet Larry, first animal on the list this fall up on the Limpopo is Red Hartebeest, Wife wants one, PH said they like to hang in the open and be prepared for up to 300 yard shooting, the 458 WM+ with 450's at 2400 will do it all, save for walking and shooting whatever other light game shows with a 1921 year model British 303 double and 215gr Woodleighs, if a large cape buffalo is found that will be a nice test for the 450 TSX's.
LOL on the coyote, i unzipped one a little lower kneeling and shooting between cattle, hit him in the tailpipe with 22-250 and 55gr ballistic tip, unzipped his guts, he spun counter clockwise circles biting at himself till the lights went out, wretched bastards anyway ; ]
Sir Ron, many thanks for the pics and write up, doe 1 was hit very tight in the crease behind her left shoulder to exit flank, i wanted a clean hit to see if the big 450gr TSX would expand on such a light target, it did indeed as can be seen by the leather punch like pattern in the flank exit, range, 110 yards. Doe 2 was hit not as far back as i would like due to brush, i knew i was going to exit shoulder at the angle she was standing, fortunately not too much damage, range, 48 yards. Doe 3 was a cluster, any man here that's hunted a fair bit has had this happen, animal in weapon sight, committed to trigger pull, animals moves, OH SHIITTT!, BOOM, felt recoil...........all six of those actions happen at once, i ran over to have her look at me, one quick 300gr hard cast from the 454 at the base of the neck ended it, all within 30 seconds, range, 44 yards.
It was a hell of an exhausting fun day, my old butt dragging three deer out of a clear cut had me wishing for 35 years of age. i have one Arkansas buck tag left and iirc till the 19th of December to make it happen, there's a big tall wide and heavy horned 10pt that calls that area home, he may be holed up resting and eating after the rut.
Sir Larry, using this 458 WM+ on these light big game animals is perfect practice for Africa, i now know animals from the tiny 10 up to Buffalo and Hippo can be handled with 450gr TSX's at 24000+ fps, with a three inch high zero at 100 through the scope, large plains game can be easily had out to 300, pretty dang versatile setup.
LOL Big Scotty B, man it was a fun day, all three deer are hanging at butcher shop for 5 full days, he'll then work his magic getting them ready for the freezer, if i didn't mention it, all three dropped at the shot, not one step was taken.
Awesome report Gunner. I believe I need to find some of them 450's! That was too damned cool to watch this unfold in words. I am sure you had a good time out there!
I once shot a bobcat at 25 yards range with a .223 Rem (Cooper single-shot bolt action) with a 50-gr Nosler Ballistic Tip. I was able to find the skull for mounting, happily with no teeth missing from the explosive death. As you were.
The .458 BMW has been born. Re-throated the .458 B&M with a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer. So simple a caveman can do it. Hand-reamed with barrel in place on the Winchester M70 Classic.
It is a short-barreled, ballistic research surrogate for a fast-twist .458 WM+ with suppressor and muzzle brake interchangeability. Heavy bullets subsonic and quiet for short range targets, or heavy bullets supersonic and LOUD for long range targets.
Stay tuned for exciting developments for the .458 WM+ and .458 BMW after muzzleloader deer season.
Definitely a versatile load. I hope a Big Buffalo gives you the opportunity. Agree on those coyotes. Their ability to adapt is pretty amazing. Sneaky little varmints.
Originally Posted by gunner500
You bet Larry, first animal on the list this fall up on the Limpopo is Red Hartebeest, Wife wants one, PH said they like to hang in the open and be prepared for up to 300 yard shooting, the 458 WM+ with 450's at 2400 will do it all, save for walking and shooting whatever other light game shows with a 1921 year model British 303 double and 215gr Woodleighs, if a large cape buffalo is found that will be a nice test for the 450 TSX's.
LOL on the coyote, i unzipped one a little lower kneeling and shooting between cattle, hit him in the tailpipe with 22-250 and 55gr ballistic tip, unzipped his guts, he spun counter clockwise circles biting at himself till the lights went out, wretched bastards anyway ; ]
Sir Ron, many thanks for the pics and write up, doe 1 was hit very tight in the crease behind her left shoulder to exit flank, i wanted a clean hit to see if the big 450gr TSX would expand on such a light target, it did indeed as can be seen by the leather punch like pattern in the flank exit, range, 110 yards. Doe 2 was hit not as far back as i would like due to brush, i knew i was going to exit shoulder at the angle she was standing, fortunately not too much damage, range, 48 yards. Doe 3 was a cluster, any man here that's hunted a fair bit has had this happen, animal in weapon sight, committed to trigger pull, animals moves, OH SHIITTT!, BOOM, felt recoil...........all six of those actions happen at once, i ran over to have her look at me, one quick 300gr hard cast from the 454 at the base of the neck ended it, all within 30 seconds, range, 44 yards.
It was a hell of an exhausting fun day, my old butt dragging three deer out of a clear cut had me wishing for 35 years of age. i have one Arkansas buck tag left and iirc till the 19th of December to make it happen, there's a big tall wide and heavy horned 10pt that calls that area home, he may be holed up resting and eating after the rut.
Sir Larry, using this 458 WM+ on these light big game animals is perfect practice for Africa, i now know animals from the tiny 10 up to Buffalo and Hippo can be handled with 450gr TSX's at 24000+ fps, with a three inch high zero at 100 through the scope, large plains game can be easily had out to 300, pretty dang versatile setup.
LOL Big Scotty B, man it was a fun day, all three deer are hanging at butcher shop for 5 full days, he'll then work his magic getting them ready for the freezer, if i didn't mention it, all three dropped at the shot, not one step was taken.
Sir Jerry, Congrats on the Success! Fill that Freezer, and Enjoy!
I would have zero hesitation about using the 458 on anything in North America. I believe in the “smoke ‘em if you got ‘em”. That 450 TSX at your velocity is definitely a performer. That hide exit certainly removes any doubt that bullet expanded. In my guesstimation, all bets are off to “the eat right up to the hole” once bone pieces are being flung around, regardless of bullet. I unzipped a coyote once, by a 338 Winchester 225 TSX traveling lengthwise down the spine. Coyote tenderloin was hanging 4’ high on spruce limbs behind him. Damnest hole I have ever seen.
I shot a coon once, that with five or six others were depleting my bear bait site of goodies for the bears. Since this was my friend's turn to shoot a bear (I'd killed one the previous week), I told him to shoot the coons, since coons don't come in numbers like that with a bear being close by. He shot a couple with his .308 win and the others scattered into the bush. I chased one down and shot it at about 25 yards using my "bear load" of a 500g Hornady RN at 2185 fps from the #1 Ruger in .45-70 LT. It literally exploded with bits and pieces hanging from the branches of trees! That's what I'd shot the bear with the previous week!
On a new deer lease with lots of coons messing with our feeder, one of our party set several traps around two feeders. The number of coons caught and dispatched was astounding! But, there were no coons around when the deer season began.
... That Linda Lovelace BMW may prove interesting. Your research is tireless.
Sir Larry, Buy a donkey for the flowers.
The tornadoes missed the farm but scattered some debris on it. I picked up a pit of metal roofing, vinyl siding, foam insulation, and fiberglass insulation on the far southwest field. Buildings were lost elsewhere ! The morning was shot by rain and wind. The afternoon was sunny and just a mild steady breeze with cold front coming.
I sat in the woods in a ground blind. A stupid little buck with one spike and a button came within 50 feet of me and studied me for about 5 minutes. Finally he put his nose in the air, snorted and turned away. He stopped 100 feet away and looked back at me through the trees. I waved bye-bye to him and he really hightailed it.
Wallking out at sunset a big doe waved bye-bye to me from 200 yards away across the middle field. I had spotted her and soon as I got my crosshairs on her I saw her swap ends and raise the white flag.
Gee, tornadoes and muzzleloader season is getting in the way of R&D.
7 pounds 2 ounces without the scope and rings. 8 pounds 14 ounces with the fun little 2.5-10x56mm Mildot "Eurolux" 30mm tube in medium height Burris XTR rings.
The .458 BMW is a .458 B&M retrofitted with a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat. This one has a 1:10" twist Pac Nor barrel 19.75" long, on a Connecticut Classic M70 300 WSM action. A .30-'06-length action and a longer barrel would be a further improvement, but as is, when loaded single-shot style, it will serve for extrapolation purposes to mimic a fast twist .458 WM+. The .458 BMW at 3.340" COL is equivalent to a .458 WM+ at 3.600" COL, with any bullet long enough to be loaded in both.
Interstingly, the .458 B&M in its short-throated proprietary version has a maximum brass length of 2.250", trim to 2.240". The .458 WinMag has a SAAMI chamber length of 2.520" for brass length accommodation, so a trim-to-length of 2.500" is appropriate for the .458 WM+, max brass 2.505". The .458 BMW should maintain a trim-to length of 2.240". The .458 BMW is 0.260" shorter in brass length than the .458 WM+, 2.240" versus 2.500". The two cases have the same gross capacity at these lengths when both utilize R-P brand brass. It is not surprising that both also have the same net capacity when the .458 BMW COL is 3.340" and the .458 WM+ COL is 3.600". Both are capable of opening a can of whoop ass on the SAAMI .458 Lott.
The .458 WM+ with 1:10" twist might be called the .458 WM+T, "T" for Twister.
Here are the throat gages I used to assess the perfect job of hand-reaming the throat of the .458 B&M into a .458 BMW:
IIRC, Jack Lott hand-reamed those SAAMI .458 WinMags into his wildcat .458 Lott, blending the 2.800"-brass acceptance into the residual SAAMI .458 WinMag throat.
The short-boxed .458 B&M works a 350-grain TSX through the mag box, but cannot handle the heavier TSX bullets except as a single-loader:
Allow it to go to 3.340" COL and it will shoot like Sir Jerry's and Sir Bob's .458 WM+ at 3.600": 450-grainers at +2400 fps MV:
Yes, and we do 500-grainers at +2300 fps and 400-grainers at +2500 fps, no sweat.
New territory, with subsonics and suppressors and "King of Two Mile Also Ran" supersonic VLD loads:
Remember that 500-gr TSX bullets can be found with BOL of 1.650" to 1.670". They would make serviceable 1000-yard plinkers for beginning practice for King of Two Mile.
I am glad you weathered the storms/tornadoes well. Many sad situations from those tornadoes. As mentioned before your work on the 458 Winchester rekindled my interest in the cartridge and the caliber itself. So, I dug out some factory loads that I have on hand. As we all know factory advertised velocities and actual can be a big difference.
Anyways reading from their box advertising:
Federal Premium 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw = 2250 fps These are the newer shiny silver ones. I have some older ones, not listed on the box; but I think they use to be a claimed 2300 fps.
Remington Safari Grade with 450 grain Swift A-Frame = 2150 fps These are probably 15+ years old.
Hornady SuperPerformance 500 grain DGX Bonded = 2140 fps These came with a used rifle that I bought recently.
458 Lott, Hornady 500 grain DGX = 2300 fps These are not listed as the Bonded nor as SuperPerformance.
My most interest in the 458 Winchester and Lott are with 400 & 450 grain bullets. But, also having a 45-70 and a son that really likes hiking with his 45-70. I decided to check out some of the lighter copper flat points for performance equal to or surpassing slightly the 420 / 460 grain hard casts, with maybe a little less recoil. I also wanted 400 grain monolithics for the 458’s. What I came up with is a compromise due to availability, North Fork 350 grain Cup Point Expanding Solids and Lehigh 380 grain copper flat points. From Michael’s testing and internet conversations with him, the 350 grain North Fork Cup Point may be plenty good for my intended use. I have a few Barnes 450 grain TSX. Visually it reminds me of the .416 350 TSX which I really like. My rifles in the Lott have magazines long enough that case trimming is not required.
It was also suggested to me to try the Hammer Bullets, Shock Hammer 402 grain for the 458’s. This appears to be an interesting bullet for a SAAMI Winchester & Lott. A shoulder repair has put progress on hold for a bit.
I too am very glad that Sir Ron is OK. I though that later today I'd give him a call but since he appears safe and sound, and is continuing his prodigious .458-cal pioneering work, I'll just say "Hi" to him and a prayer for his continued protection.
I too am very glad that Sir Ron is OK. I though that later today I'd give him a call but since he appears safe and sound, and is continuing his prodigious .458-cal pioneering work, I'll just say "Hi" to him and a prayer for his continued protection.
Better to laugh than to cry about it. So, to Sir Bob, Sir Tony, and Sir Larry:
The .458 Winchester Magnum is to the .458 Lott as a tornado is to a trailer park.
Sir Bob's blog reveals that the "newer" version of the Barnes 600-gr/.458-cal RNSN is different from the "Original." It is about 0.1" longer ! BOL ~1.650", comes with a cannelure, and a different ogive and less lead exposed at nose. It has a base like a Barnes Buster.
Should be very interesting at 3.8" COL in Sir Bob's Ruger No. 1 .458 WM+.
What are the powder coating advantages over the more traditional / old fashion bullet lube method ? I have a quantity of unlubed .458, 460 grain cast checked hard cast and same for revolver cartridges.
I know the powder coat is way prettier for the fashion conscious. Is friction is reduced ?
I have not much experience on the subject but reading some on it there is one thing to watch when buying this powder is to buy one that is not abrasive and that you have to undersize the bullet to compensate for the coating
Powder coating done well creates a slick surface on the bullet that also will survive the trip up the barrel very well. There are no drawbacks to the process. On sizing, cast bullets should be 1 or 2 thousands over bore diameter and you can run the bullet after coating through a Lee Sizer die if you wish. Since this is a 458Win Mag thread, you will find most off the shelf molds are .458 or .459 sized so the Powder coating helps get the bullet up to the .460 / .461 that you really want anyway. Of course you order custom molds in the proper diameter as well. Fear not. Coat away.
What are the powder coating advantages over the more traditional / old fashion bullet lube method ? I have a quantity of unlubed .458, 460 grain cast checked hard cast and same for revolver cartridges.
I know the powder coat is way prettier for the fashion conscious. Is friction is reduced ?
9ne advantage to.powder coating us no smoke from the lube when you shoot them
I have not much experience on the subject but reading some on it there is one thing to watch when buying this powder is to buy one that is not abrasive and that you have to undersize the bullet to compensate for the coating
Powder coating done well creates a slick surface on the bullet that also will survive the trip up the barrel very well. There are no drawbacks to the process. On sizing, cast bullets should be 1 or 2 thousands over bore diameter and you can run the bullet after coating through a Lee Sizer die if you wish. Since this is a 458Win Mag thread, you will find most off the shelf molds are .458 or .459 sized so the Powder coating helps get the bullet up to the .460 / .461 that you really want anyway. Of course you order custom molds in the proper diameter as well. Fear not. Coat away.
Thanks for the info. The rifle bullets are Cast Performance gas check .458. Though I have not confirmed the actual size. This seems to be the way to go.
The smoke reduction as jwp475 mentioned, would be particularly welcomed with the bigger bore revolvers.
The Cast Performance bullets sold retail are grooved, Gas checked, un-lubed and probably .458 or .459 so they are just begging for a coat or two of Powder coating. Bring them up a couple of thousands and don't worry about sizing them. Coat and shoot.
Better to laugh than to cry about it. So, to Sir Bob, Sir Tony, and Sir Larry:
The .458 Winchester Magnum is to the .458 Lott as a tornado is to a trailer park.
Sir Bob's blog reveals that the "newer" version of the Barnes 600-gr/.458-cal RNSN is different from the "Original." It is about 0.1" longer ! BOL ~1.650", comes with a cannelure, and a different ogive and less lead exposed at nose. It has a base like a Barnes Buster.
Should be very interesting at 3.8" COL in Sir Bob's Ruger No. 1 .458 WM+.
Sir Ron, This Has me all Shook up! I'll buy a Donkey! LOL!!!
Comments from The Square Table about powder-coat painting of cast bullets are appreciated. Collective Sirs: Buy a donkey. The PC paint prevents lead exposure in bullet handling, but wash your hands anyway ! It allows us to hang the grease grooves out in the .458 WM throat without the mess of exposed grease. Grease may be necessary to keep BP fouling soft, but not so with smokeless. Even BPCR loads may use PC-painted bullets, as long as the grease is used too !
Proof of water is proof of life for concept of .458 BMW surrogacy for .458 WM+ fast-twist testing: The .458 B&M was supposed to have a case length of 2.295" as originally conceived but B&M had to shorten it to 2.250" max, due to problems getting bullets to fit in the magazine. The .458 Lott suffers from same problem with some rifles. So the .458 BMW is trimmed to 2.240" brass length per standard safety practices, and it is a tiny bit under 95 grains H20 gross. The .458 WM+ is easily allowed to go to 2.505" max brass, trim to 2.500", and it is thus a tiny bit over 95 grains of H20.
Comparing the .458 WM R-P brass to Quality Cartridge .458 B&M brass, out of 10 carts, 3 were unusually heavy and of lesser capacity. So three pieces of brass made from R-P brass for .300 RUM were added in to make 10 pieces of similar weight, length and capacity. Quality Cartridge brass for the .458 B&M is most likely made from blank basic RUM brass from R-P:
Another possibility with 1:10" twist in a .458 WM+: Sabot loads with .358-cal. rifle bullets (not just .357-cal. pistol bullets) in .45-cal sabot.
Alrighty, copy that Elvis rendition, “Baie Dankie”. The powder coat information / material search shall get serious tomorrow. I think, basic black is the color preference. It just matches most any outfit, perhaps an occasional red for special events.
So’s, these CZ’s that we have, 458 Lott / CAL 458 WIN. MAG. are apparently the standard 458 Winchester that were rechambered to Lott here in the state. This one definitely has a Deep-Throat throat. Obvious to anyone that has stayed in a Holiday Inn. Watergate Hotel not required. I assume these cavernous, projectile hungry beasts have a standard twist of 1-14” ? It appears, the Barnes 450 grain TSX has to be seated at the 3rd groove to function in the magazine. Otherwise, that bullet with full length, once fired brass would fit with about half of the bottom of the solid shank in the brass.
The MRC Lott is definitely restricted to front groove seating with the 450 TSX, due to magazine length. And appears to have the standard Lott throat.
Comments from The Square Table about powder-coat painting of cast bullets are appreciated. Collective Sirs: Buy a donkey. The PC paint prevents lead exposure in bullet handling, but wash your hands anyway ! It allows us to hang the grease grooves out in the .458 WM throat without the mess of exposed grease. Grease may be necessary to keep BP fouling soft, but not so with smokeless. Even BPCR loads may use PC-painted bullets, as long as the grease is used too !
Proof of water is proof of life for concept of .458 BMW surrogacy for .458 WM+ fast-twist testing: The .458 B&M was supposed to have a case length of 2.295" as originally conceived but B&M had to shorten it to 2.250" max, due to problems getting bullets to fit in the magazine. The .458 Lott suffers from same problem with some rifles. So the .458 BMW is trimmed to 2.240" brass length per standard safety practices, and it is a tiny bit under 95 grains H20 gross. The .458 WM+ is easily allowed to go to 2.505" max brass, trim to 2.500", and it is thus a tiny bit over 95 grains of H20.
Alrighty, copy that Elvis rendition, “Baie Dankie”. The powder coat information / material search shall get serious tomorrow. I think, basic black is the color preference. It just matches most any outfit, perhaps an occasional red for special events.
Best buys are Harbor Freight Red, and Eastwood Ford Light Blue, with the latter being my favorite. I tried Harbor Freight Black and it just did not give good coverage/adherence. Maybe you can find a more expensive black color that works. Let us know if you do, please, Sir Larry.
So’s, these CZ’s that we have, 458 Lott / CAL 458 WIN. MAG. are apparently the standard 458 Winchester that were rechambered to Lott here in the state. This one definitely has a Deep-Throat throat. Obvious to anyone that has stayed in a Holiday Inn. Watergate Hotel not required. I assume these cavernous, projectile hungry beasts have a standard twist of 1-14” ?
Yes, 1:14" twist. Initially, CIP homologated the .458 Lott with the same throat as the .458 WinMag tacked onto the end of the longer chamber accepting 2.8" brass. Early CZ .458 Lotts were probably re-chambered with that reamer, so are actually longer than can possibly be fully "Long-COL" utilized in a 3.8" mag box. They are not the .458 Lott Like Jack Built, which can only be loaded to same length as the SAAMI .458 WinMag. CIP subsequently revised their .458 Lott chamber to match the SAAMI .458 Lott with short and tight throat.
It appears, the Barnes 450 grain TSX has to be seated at the 3rd groove to function in the magazine. Otherwise, that bullet with full length, once fired brass would fit with about half of the bottom of the solid shank in the brass.
True, for a 3.6" magazine length function with the .458 WM+. The 500-gr and 450-gr TSX bullets of same date of manufacture have the same nose shape and grooves down to the 4th groove on the 450-grainer being the last one. The 500-grainer has a 5th groove, and the base portion lengths on both bullets differ. If you have a 3.8" magazine length or a Ruger No. 1, the .SAAMI .458 WM chamber will accept the 500-grainer in the 5th groove for 3.78" COL. At that length it is "right near" or actually touching the rifling lands where they begin to stand proud near front end of leade. You will not be able to chamber it in a SAAMI .458 Lott, same for the current CIP .458 Lott.
The MRC Lott is definitely restricted to front groove seating with the 450 TSX, due to magazine length. And appears to have the standard Lott throat.
So your SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott by MRC has a mag box length of +3.600", probably 3.62" to 3.64" like most M70 Winchesters for H&H cartridges. Thus you are able to exceed the 3.600" SAAMI COL for the .458 Lott. Fair is fair, so we can exceed the 3.340" SAAMI COL with the .458 WM+ in the same rifle action. The .458 WM+ is the tornado. The SAAMI .458 Lott is the trailer park.
I will say kind words to the Super Express 458 Winchester. Yep, I think this MRC Lott is a touch longer than at least one M70 stainless 375 H&H that I have.
Regaining my composure here. ROTFL, at the eloquence of prose below.
—————————————————————————————
The .458 WM+ is the tornado. The SAAMI .458 Lott is the trailer park.
Buy a donkey for the literary criticism, Sir Larry.
I am surprised at not getting any ribbing for the "Eurolux" scope on the .458 BMW research mule. It makes some nice weight addition anyway. If it goes TU, there are both heavier and lighter options, either way probably more durable.
The .458 BMW in Tupperware stock with scope bases and open sights weighs 7-1/4 pounds, 7#4oz. In the 2 ounces lighter Ultimate Shadow stock it weighs 7-1/8 pounds, 7#2oz.
I like the Tupperware best, having always had outstanding accuracy with such stocks, even on kickers like .375 WBY and .458 WM. So let us call the .458 BMW a 7.25-pounder. Light scope & rings option (12 ounces) makes it 8.0 pounds flat, without ammo. Heavy scope and rings option (2.5 pounds, 40 ounces) makes it 9.75 pounds. Adding ammo and a slip-on pad will add another 12 ounces, so 8.75 pounds or 10.5 pounds field ready. Adding a suppressor will add another pound and turn a 19.75" barrel into a 27.5" length from breech to muzzle ! A suppressed 20"-barreled .458 WM+ would have a 28" effective barrel length and weigh close to 12 pounds, or more, depending on barrel contour. OH MY !
Until the .458 WM+ is fitted with suppressor, I am following Sir Bob's lead with the Walker Razors and keeping an ear to the ground for other auditory protection for proper research safety:
Above demonstrates Democrat technique of Covid masking: Nostrils exposed.
Anyone with a SAAMI .458 Lott or wildcat/proprietary .458 B&M who wants to make it more powerful and versatile with a greater range of bullets and powders may feel free to send it to me and I will lovingly re-throat it by hand as apprentice to my supervising local FFL. I'm just trying to help with his backlog.
Here is rough visual comparison at a glance for those who like pictures, like I do:
In quickLOAD the default case capacities of the .458 WM-2.5" and .458 Lott-2.8" are 95 grains and 110 grains of water respectively. No allowance for throat. Here is the allowance for throat: The SAAMI .458 WinMag has 0.1582" greater length than the SAAMI .458 Lott from breech/bolt face to first contact of a .458-caliber bullet with rifling of .458"-groove diameter. A right-cylindrical bullet of .458-caliber displaces 41.66 grains of water for each inch of its length. Thus the SAAMI .458 WM has a "throat-actualized" effective capacity of 6.59 grains of water greater than the SAAMI .458 Lott. So consider the SAAMI .458 WM to have 116.59 grains H20 gross and 2.5" brass length when calculating pressures and velocities with quickLOAD, for comparison to the same calculations for the SAAMI .458 Lott.
The .458 caliber world is a dedication and being that, it tends to keep writers away from it so this thread is not only important, it is more informative than a guest user or reviewer could ever provide and in detail never offered from any source. Thanks for the dedication Ron and Mike McGuire for starting this. John
PS: I don't see a fat lady anywhere at this point............
The .458 caliber world is a dedication and being that, it tends to keep writers away from it so this thread is not only important, it is more informative than a guest user or reviewer could ever provide and in detail never offered from any source. Thanks for the dedication Ron and Mike McGuire for starting this. John
PS: I don't see a fat lady anywhere at this point............
I seem to spend a good part of my time in writing, and thinking about what I'll write in blogs and with correspondents, as well as here - so I suppose I qualify - in an obtuse sense!
Certainly I've had my dedications in writing a few manuals, especially on .45-70s and the "great" .458 Win.
But there have been others in .338-cal, .35-cal, and now in 9.3 x 62.
This might be a slight digression, but I think it's time for a dedicated book or two - on the "great" .458 Winchester Magnum.
Surely, there is both enough talent and experience present here in the persons of Ron and Phil to produce at least one magnificent book dedicated to the .458 Win - each from their own experiences and perspectives: One more technical and the other more experience oriented. Not intended to suggest any lack of experience and knowledge on the part of either of these gentlemen.
Lacking a single collaborative book, two might be better still!
And this is NOT intended to ignore the excellent contributions by others to this thread who show both knowledge and experience in regard to the .458 Win.
I have to report the score for late muzzleloader season: Does three, Ron zero. My tripod stand had a moat around it yesterday, since it has been raining about half the time since the "Quad State Tornado of 2021."
As I was walking away from that, some geese came in from the north, flew over the soggy field
and came back from the south for a second look
and settled down behind the hedgerow:
I walked the other end of the farm along a boundary line of trees. What do I spy but a "Comfort Saddle" pool float made of foam rubber that has twigs piercing it like a pin cushion. It was blown there by the tornado last week, out of somebody's swimming pool gear to the southwest. As I stooped to pick it up, four fat and sassy does hightailed it from the border I was walking along, cutting across the field. They were about 200 yards away when my cross hairs jerked onto the biggest and highest hump in the bunch. That one must have been at apogee and was on the way back down as I fired. Clean miss. Looks like the only way I might get a doe this year is with a crossbow. For luck:
Finally got down into the 20s degrees F last night, a good frost.
Elmer Keith, His Life Story: "HELL, I WAS THERE!" Adventures of a Montana cowboy who gained world fame as a big game hunter. By Elmer Keith, who pronounced the .458 Winchester Magnum as superbly accurate and powerful enough for even Elmer, in his size 2 cowboy boots.
UNREPENTANT SINNER, The Autobiography of Colonel Charles Askins. By Col. Charles Askins, recollecting probably the earliest use in the field of the .458 WinMag in 1956, in Southeast Asia. The .458 WinMag went to Vietnam in early 1956. Being a gunwriter with a close family friend high up at Olin has advantages.
JAMES ".450" WATTS: RECOLLECTIONS OF MY LIFE as told to Cal Pappas.
I volunteer to interview Sir Phil for posterity. PHIL "458WIN" SHOEMAKER: RECOLLECTIONS OF MY LIFE as told to Ron Berry. Somebody needs to do it. Just not the caveman/Lottite please.
My vote is that the book must be done while it can be done. Phil’s life surely must be chronicled. I can think of nobody better to do it than Ron. “When Life gets Ugly”. The life, times and tools of Phil Shoemaker By Ron Berry.
Elmer Keith, His Life Story: "HELL, I WAS THERE!" Adventures of a Montana cowboy who gained world fame as a big game hunter. By Elmer Keith, who pronounced the .458 Winchester Magnum as superbly accurate and powerful enough for even Elmer, in his size 2 cowboy boots.
UNREPENTANT SINNER, The Autobiography of Colonel Charles Askins. By Col. Charles Askins, recollecting probably the earliest use in the field of the .458 WinMag in 1956, in Southeast Asia. The .458 WinMag went to Vietnam in early 1956. Being a gunwriter with a close family friend high up at Olin has advantages.
JAMES ".450" WATTS: RECOLLECTIONS OF MY LIFE as told to Cal Pappas.
I volunteer to interview Sir Phil for posterity. PHIL "458WIN" SHOEMAKER: RECOLLECTIONS OF MY LIFE as told to Ron Berry. Somebody needs to do it. Just not the caveman/Lottite please.
I’ve got Elmer’s and Charlie’s books, both signed by the author. I’d really like that Cal Pappas book. Maybe someone will reprint it some day.
And of course we know what the cover will look like. One Phil, one massive bear and one magnificent 458WM, beautiful to only its holder.
Phil is not known to toot his own horn. Hence the suggestion that he needs a nudge toward writing his autobiography. He has much to tell. Here is a note to Sir Phil from Sir Saint Finn that Charlie Sisk put up on the image gallery ...
528-gr Lehigh has BC = 0.871 and SD = 0.360 600-gr CEB has form factor that looks as good, at least, and heavier weight with SD = 0.409 and BC is directly proportional to SD for same form factor. (0.409/.360) X 0.871 = 0.990 Sleek form without all the grooves, that CEB "Lazer" might make it past 1.000 if the single "seal tight band" is not a BC killer.
Most accurate 600-gr Barnes Original load was at 2051 fps in 24" Ruger No. 1 with 74.0 grains H4895.
This is encouraging for Not Quite King of Two Mile. The 5-yard correction to MV for a BC of 1.000 and circa 2200 fps is 4 fps.
Sir Ron, Buy a Donkey for Missing the Running Doe! LOL! Lord knows if I had bought a Donkey for every running missed shot I had at Deer, and Game, I'd have a Stable Full! LOL! Haven't heard a thing from Sir Jerry,(gunner500), in a while! Hoping he's doing okay, and made it through those Nasty Tornadoes! Gent's, really enjoying this informative thread, and looking Fore Ward to the Future Book!
It is long past time for James Watts to be Knighted and Canonized. Not cannonized by shooting his ashes out of a howitzer, but recognized as a Saint, Saint Sir James Watts of the Knights of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood. His .450 Watts Short was released to Winchester after years of their dawdling post WW2. That became the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum in 1956. To add insult to injury, Jack Lott's first ".458 Lott" in 1971 was merely a .450 Watts Magnum of 2.850" brass length reamed by hand into a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber with no barrel setback.
It is long past time for Saint Sir James Watts to have the last laugh: The .450 Watts Magnum Number 2, aka the ".450 WM2." It is a .458/.375 H&H with 2.810" chamber length (max brass 2.790", trim to 2.785" to be precise) and with COL 3.800", so you only have to trim it shorter if you want it to fit in a shorter box with a long bullet. Crowding in a 3.600" COL happens routinely with the SAAMI .458 Lott. Not so with the .450 Watts Magnum No. 2. In fact, any SAAMI .458 Lott can be converted into a .450 WM2 by running a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into it, up to the belt. In fact, the .450 WM2 is just as powerful as the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum loaded long-COL, and more powerful than the SAAMI .458 Lott, when all are loaded to the same pressure.
Old Fugly is the world's first .450 Watts Magnum No. 2 and as such shall have its barrel stamped with "450 WM2" to supercede all else thereon. That will make it even fuglier !
Backtracking now to Old Fugly with a drop box. I will cast some 600-gr bullets to begin load development from subsonic to supersonic max. -1100 fps to +2125 fps MV. Old Fugly is a 1:14" twist but ought to handle the shorter cast lead bullets in that velocity range. Perfect. 2125 fps is well within accuracy and impact integrety limits for a hardcast, PC-painted, gas-checked, 600-gr/".458-cal" bullet. Suppressed subsonic will have to wait. King of One Mile will have to wait for the long, monometal VLD bullets in a 1:10" twist.
An overlapping range of AA-5744 loads for low-end to midrange velocity (no filler) and H4895 from 70% LR (with filler) for midrange to drop-tubed and compressed for top-end might gitterdun.
Whatever loads work in the .450 WM2 will also work in the .458 WM+. Just have to "go commando" with the .458 WM+ not wearing the brass panties to cover all of the bottom of the bullet.
Ron, so what was the maximum power acheived with the seated out 458 win? Say with 500 grain bullets. Sorry, still working my way through the pages.
158XTP, It is about time you picked your sir name. I recall your contributions and correspondence while this was going at the anchor baby's playpen. No offense meant by association there, please. Good time to review the state of 500-grainer loads for the .458 WM+.
Nowadays there is a plethora of powders and bullets to move 500-grains at 2150 fps MV inside of 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi, in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. Noncompressed ball powders or mildly compressed stick powders, take your pick. Either can be temperature stable.
This is best so far for the .458 WM+, with AA-2460 and the 500-gr TBSH, by Sir Jerry, and I will take credit for recommending AA-2460 to him after he recommended the 500-gr TBSH to me:
I have done not quite so fast with the 500-gr TSX and AA-2230. Sir Bob and Sir Jerry are in close pursuit on the 450-grain TSX with H335 and AA-2460. I have done a wee bit better with AA-2230 and the 450-gr TSX:
The 500-gr TSX at 2342 fps MV put two bullets in one hole, third was about 1 MOA to left, maybe I flinched ?
This is what I based the AA-2460 recommendation on, to Sir Jerry:
Noncompressed 93% LR load with AA-2460 was faster and more accurate than a compressed 103% LR load with H4895. 2265 fps and 2212 fps respectively. Seating depth was only 0.240" with the 543-grain FNGC. I might have to seat a 600-grainer a half inch deep. Might not be able to make 3.5" COL with the FNGC 600-grainer I am looking at, it is so fat forward. Might be able to make 3.3" COL in the SAAMI .458 Lott. Will be looking to AA-2460 most likely, for use in the .458 WM+ and .450 WM2. Oh shucks, I am changing the name of last one to the ".450 Watts Winchester Number 2." .450 WW2 sounds better than .450 WM2.
The .450 Watts Magnum was a member of the Post WW2 Baby Boom Generation. It gestated from 1938 gleam in James Watts' eye to 1949 birth. Yep, .450 WW2 is much more appropriate for the last laugh. It performs just like the .458 WM+ with heavy bullets, better than the SAAMI .458 Lott with birdshot and rat bullets, and the heavy bullets too.
Those CEB 600-gr Lazers cost about 3 bucks each. Better to use some 600-gr cast bullets for the ballpark powder checking. Time for me to cast some. BTW, having mentioned Sir Jerry's champ 500-gr TBSS load above, note that his Holiday Casting was an interesting scale up of the Saeco "Model of 1881" Gov't.-style 500-grainer from .458 to .512 caliber, in 16:1 alloy which sure do make pretty bullets. The 500-gr/.458 in whatever alloy grew to 715-gr/.512 in 16:1 alloy:
I am swagging that the weight-scale-up ratio for .458 to .512 would be a factor of (.512/.458) cubed = 1.39704 X So in same alloy, a 500-grainer would become a 699-grainer, pretty close. So I am suspecting the .458 Gov't. bullet in 16:1 alloy would weigh a little more than 500 grains, or about 511 grains ? Got a sexy sub-.458-caliber cast bullet to scale up to .458-caliber weight ?
600-ish-grain .461-caliber and 158-ish-grain ".357-ish-caliber" are on my Holiday Casting agenda, thanks to the picture with the pistol in it as a reminder to try the 6-cavity Lee mould while I am at it. I find that a 158-gr cast bullet at about 900 fps shoots to the same 25-yard POI as a 125-gr JHP at a modest 1250 fps in either a 4" Ruger Security Six or a 6" Colt Python. Good zombie headshot medicine. Hopefully a subsonic 600-grainer and a supersonic 600-grainer in the .458 WM+ or .450 WW2 can be found to have a useful POI combo at close range for zombie herd shooting when their melons get lined up.
Some Subsonic and Supersonic surrogates for those 3-dollar bullets, first the plain base 500-grainers in WW that will be a little lighter and bigger diameter when hardcast, for PC-painting and and sizing to .461":
Sir Ron, many Thanks, and yessir, the 500gr TBSS at 2360+ is a 500 grain world beater in my 458 WM+, that load should easily provide a complimentary tracheotomy to a fleeing cape buff shot in the tail pipe, this fall we may find out should i be able to find a 40 inch old hard bossed bull, and man you're good, my 1881 saeco .458" bullets to indeed weigh 508gr at 16-1 alloy, with 20 or 30-1 they'd weigh 510-515gr, not to sidetrack this great thread, but i wanted all those benefits for my 50 cal 22 twist Sharps rifles, may even have math cat buddy scale back to 40 cal for my 40-90 2-5/8ths SBN, that slug may weigh around 390-400gr at 16-1.
A great holiday casting session to break the monotony of hurry up and wait, hurry up and dont be late, hurry up then be stuck in a house with 60 people and 85 degree temps, lord have mercy on me! over eating, sometimes two times daily with family and friends is just what the Doc ordered, for me to only loose one bullet out of the 105 i cast was GREAT!, lost none to weight variances and the one under the glass that had a bit of trash in the groove, needed a hundred, now have 104?
Hope you had a great casting session with your 458-461+ and 357's, and thank the lord the holidays are behind us.
Sir Ron, Buy a Donkey for Missing the Running Doe! LOL! Lord knows if I had bought a Donkey for every running missed shot I had at Deer, and Game, I'd have a Stable Full! LOL! Haven't heard a thing from Sir Jerry,(gunner500), in a while! Hoping he's doing okay, and made it through those Nasty Tornadoes! Gent's, really enjoying this informative thread, and looking Fore Ward to the Future Book!
Sir Tony
Hello Sir Tony, i'm here my friend, have logged in a few times over the last month or so just to check pm's on sale/buy/donation projects, haven't posted much, but all good, hope same for you and yours, ready to pole vault over the holiday crush!
Sir Jerry: WOW ! That is some great casting control to cull only one bullet out of 105.
My latest casting session was rough as a cob. First time with three new moulds, alternating two moulds when casting. Even though I pre-heated moulds on a hoptplate, I culled half of my bullets. I will run it hotter and quicker with those aluminum N.O.E. moulds next time. Will do it again with 20:1 alloy too ! The corn cob alloy has its uses, and so does the prettier 20:1 ...
The AM 46-485N is and FNGC described by AM as: "Long front band for long throat 458 Win mag":
With gas check and PC paint it will be approaching 480 grains in the corn cob alloy.
Yes, Sir Jerry puts me to shame. Here are the 20:1 alloy castings of the the previous 92521-BHN25:
The highlight of the above, for me, is that 20:1 castings weigh very close to same in straight clip-on wheel weight alloy (WW).
For my next trick I am going to try the Saint Sir Bill Bagwell Bullet (Lyman PH "475-grainer") and some .45-caliber paperpatch bullets (up to nominal 550-grainer in WW) but cast in 20:1. The paper-patched might be loaded with duplexed BP in the .458 WM, or they might be "patched" with powder-coat paint, sized, and loaded with Blackhorn 209 in the CVA Paramount. Thus, both the .458 WM-BPCR and the inline muzzleloader might mimic the Creedmoor Era muzzleloaders and BPCR ballistics, same same. Accurate to 1000 yards ?
BTW, my goal with the .357 RemMag bullet is 1050 fps in either a 4" or 6" revolver barrel, whichever works best. Could be a useful all-purpose handgun plinker and defensive load. Afterall, Phil Shoemaker used his pocket 9mm Parabellum with 3.5" barrel to save the lives of fishing clients from a brown bear. That was a hardcast load from Buffalo Bore, 147-grain FN at about 1050 fps. His .355"/147-grainer worked. My .357"/158-grainer will have a slight sectional density, momentum and I dare say frontal area advantage after both squeeze through their barrels for same MV. How is that for fly specks in the pepper ? That is way less difference than the power advantage of the .458 WM+ and .450 WW2 over the SAAMI .458 Lott corruption of the .450 Watts Magnum.
Moral of the story: If brown bear hunting with a muzzleloader, bring your handgun to the dance.
LOL, i like those corncob ingots Sir Ron, that casting session you just had is more thana good enough for intended purposes, my weighing every bullet [+ - 1 grain with 700+ grainers] then visually inspecting for trash, bubbles, possible voids, even bullet bases for rotational imbalances applies to Sharps rifle barrel sight shooting so far for me to 900 yards, i have to try and remove [me/human] from the equation as much as possible, you do know i went to the Saint Bagwell School of Casting, man that dude was tough!
I have a 36 cal lee gang mould, it dumps 18 buckshot pellets with 22 BHN lead, 12 of those stacked neatly in 4 tiers of three pellets each in the low brass clear Fiocchi 2-3/4 inch hull is max payload for home defense 000 buck loads.
Sir Tony, many Thanks, i love a good casting session, on the recovery today, maul split and stacked near 2.5 rick of firewood on back porch yesterday, worn out as a pair of jumper cables at a hillbilly funeral this morning ; ]
Maybe the secret of Quality Control in Bullet Casting:
The Norma-made .458 WinMag brass I have is surprisingly greater in capacity, lighter in weight, and softer than the other makes of brass I use. I save the Norma brass for BPCR loads with real BP and paper-patched bullets in the .458 WinMag. I prefer Hornady, W-W, and R-P brass for smokeless loads.
Here are two bullets that will be great for trial with BP or Blackhorn 209 in the .458 WM-BPCR using Norma brass, or CVA Paramount .45-cal muzzleloader:
Gold color on bases of shiny silver Bagwell bullets is reflection of plywood next to bullets:
I may need to try a carefully tended, wood-fired melting pot to get a cull rate of 1 out of 105. I improved a bit with the last outing. I am still throwing about ten of the first hundred back into the pot.
With proper prep of the mould, that first dozen or so bullets as the mould and casting person get up to speed is the killer of a zero cull rate. After that, if one remembers how to position his tongue just right in his mouth as he is filling the mould, perfect bullets are about guaranteed. Even a caveman can do it.
Problem is, after about a hundred drops from the melting pot and ladle, fatigue and the munchies set in. So you stop for a snack and have to start all over again. Another instance of pot side-effects, the munchies.
Review of basics on beating the SAAMI .458 Lott with a SAAMI-chamberd .458 WinMag allowed the higher pressure of the Lott and whatever length for COL you like:
A match load with potential:
Three shots at 50 yards:
Two shots in one hole and then a flinch to the left:
Even a caveman can do it. The .458 WinMag makes it that easy.
There is slim hope for a year better than the last two, but there is hope. How could the next be worse ? We will probably find out soon enough.
LOL Sir Ron, wish i was good enough to cast with wood fire, that most certainly will remain comfortably above my pay grade , your bullets are looking good, Saint Bagwell would be proud, again with the Great 458 WM+, the possibilities are endless.
The hardcast are painted blue. The 20:1 are painted red.
One possibility is to size the 20:1 "Red Death" Bagwell Bullet down to .453" from .456" as cast. Then ram it down the .452" bore of the CVA Paramount, atop a charge of Blackhorn 209. Scope sighted muzzleloader might allow even a caveman to mimic Saint Sir Bill Bagwell's BPCR with barrel sights, in ballistics at least, even if not in superhuman accuracy. The caveman is still doing the aiming and trigger pulling.
The same bullet might also be paper-patched up to .459" and loaded with duplexed BP in the Norma .458 WinMag brass. That would be "special" in a .458 WinMag (1:14" twist) or the surrogate .45-100-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated (1:18" and 1:20" twist). I am thinking grease cookie, paper patch, PC paint, and smokeless starter under BP to match the compressed BP ballistics of .45-70 Govt. Could shoot all week and never have to blow or wipe.
Like Sir Jerry said, the possibilities are endless, with a SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag. I only have about a million unfinished projects lined up for it.
I was able to locate some .458 Win Mag brass! Not new but once fired Hornady, of three different weigh hardcasts: 390gr, 405gr and 485gr. And the loads were modest using H4895.
I went online and nothing new was found in Canada. But 40 Hornady once-fired cases, plus new looking Lee dies were offered for $65 Cdn only 1 and 1/2 hours drive from here. So I'll pick them up tomorrow. Since my plan is to do a lot of bullet testing in the spring of the new, heavy 600gr Barnes O, 550gr Woodleighs and 500gr Hornady DGX's, I was in need for some additional brass.
Since the once-fired brass has only endured modest loads, and mine will be mild, they should last "forever"!
"Whatever is good and perfect comes to us from God above" - James, the apostle ch 1:17 (NLB)
That is a great find. Hornady brass is my favorite, and W-W is number two on my hit parade. The seater plug on the LEE die is the best shape there is for any and all .458-caliber bullets. I have Redding, RCBS, Hornady, and LEE dies. The LEE set will do it all for the .458 WM, especially useful is the Factory Crimp Die by LEE. Just like a .458 WM Ruger No. 1 in the usefulness category. On your latest blog entry: AMEN ! Looking forward to part two on the single shot hunting rifle. I am a member of the choir you are preaching too.
Appearance of the shaked and baked bullets before sizing is shown below. PC paint adds about 1-2 grains weight. The Hornady .45-cal gas check weighs 8.17 grains on average. Call it 8 grains for GC and 2 grains for PC-Paint on the bigger bullets. Sizing will apply the gas checks where needed. Sizing will shine up the bearing surfaces of all of these bullets.
Bob, Great Blog post! I mourn for my Ruger #1 long departed to a friend who really "had to have it." It was perfectly suitable for anything I ever hunted with it. Frankly, I could reload it just a fast as the bolt guys who take the gun off their shoulder, which if you watch hunting video's seems to be almost everybody. Only needed to reload it once on a running bull elk. Some pretty poor shooting on my part as he ran across an Alfalfa field 90 degrees to me at 400+ yards led me to reload several times. Once I got the lead right, down he went. Also I have written on the "other" forum about pulling an unbroken stomach out of a doe deer with the 458 and FN cast bullet just like your story did on the bear. Shot in the chest at 15 yards or so as she ran out of a thicket. Bullet exited flank as did the stomach. I saw it and thought "oh no! What a mess this will be!" Nope bullet simply created the vacuum behind the diaphragm and out went the stomach behind the bullet with no mess at all.
Appearance of the shaked and baked bullets before sizing is shown below. PC paint adds about 1-2 grains weight. The Hornady .45-cal gas check weighs 8.17 grains on average. Call it 8 grains for GC and 2 grains for PC-Paint on the bigger bullets. Sizing will apply the gas checks where needed. Sizing will shine up the bearing surfaces of all of these bullets.
You are the master chef of powder coating! The more that I read on the powder coating, the more appealing it is.
What are you resizing with ? I see some recommend the sizing dies in a single stage press.
I do not currently have a Lubri-Sizer or such. I am considering the single sizing dies. If I can find the correct sizes.
That is some weird stuff for sure with bear intestine and deer stomach getting sucked out of the .458 exit hole. I once hit a fallow doe in the brisket at 342 yards. The full length of belly unzipped in midline and nearly completely gutted the animal on the hoof. My spotter watching through the laser range finder said: "Dang ! That deer's guts popped out !" I was using a Ruger No. 1 .416 Rigby with 350-gr X-Bullet. Of course my aim might have been better if I had been using a .458 WinMag Ruger No. 1. Confidence in a cartridge breeds accuracy.
Sir Larry, I am no master powder coater. It is just easy for a beginner to get decent results, even a caveman can do it.
I like the simple push-through dies from Lee and CH4D. Grab them off the shelf or custom order as necessary, whenever possible to place an order. Base-pusher-through-put installs gas check and sizes bullet. I use RCBS Ammo Master II single-stage reloading press for cast bullets,sizing down no more than 0.003". The PC-paint is the sizing lube, but bullets can also be lubed by rolling on a lube pad like brass cases. The water soluble RCBS Case Lube 2 on a Lyman pad works well.
If you start sizing jacketed and monometal copper bullets you will need the lube, and maybe a one-ton arbor press rigged to do it.
I have a Lyman Lubrisizer (nose pusher) but do not like the mess of grease lubes. Only for BPCR will I mess with grease instead of PC paint. I might someday try it without grease for PC-painted bullet sizing , or partial/nose-sizing, maybe ...
Expect the hardcast PC-painted bullets to spring back to about 0.001" bigger than the sizer die diameter. Soft lead alloy should size closer to nominal sizer die diameter.
Jacketed and monometal copper bullets spring back to about 0.002" larger than the sizer die diameter.
That is some weird stuff for sure with bear intestine and deer stomach getting sucked out of the .458 exit hole. I once hit a fallow doe in the brisket at 342 yards. The full length of belly unzipped in midline and nearly completely gutted the animal on the hoof. My spotter watching through the laser range finder said: "Dang ! That deer's guts popped out !" I was using a Ruger No. 1 .416 Rigby with 350-gr X-Bullet. Of course my aim might have been better if I had been using a .458 WinMag Ruger No. 1. Confidence in a cartridge breeds accuracy.
As a devout fan and defender of the .416’s. What more might one ask, than a round that guts ‘em for you ? If you had been using a 416 Remington, it would have likely skinned it as well as gutted. The 416 Ruger would have most likely done all the prior plus, packed it out for you. Truly, One must have confidence in the cartridge.
That is a great find. Hornady brass is my favorite, and W-W is number two on my hit parade. The seater plug on the LEE die is the best shape there is for any and all .458-caliber bullets. I have Redding, RCBS, Hornady, and LEE dies. The LEE set will do it all for the .458 WM, especially useful is the Factory Crimp Die by LEE. Just like a .458 WM Ruger No. 1 in the usefulness category. On your latest blog entry: AMEN ! Looking forward to part two on the single shot hunting rifle. I am a member of the choir you are preaching too.
Thanks Ron
I got them yesterday on the heels of a blustery day... Driving was rather miserable but worth it. It turned out that they had been resized and primed, but I don't yet know with what primer as his info didn't include that. They are silver in color and the WLRM are sort of a gold color. I don't want to de-prime them so will have to give them a try as is. The cases look excellent, and so does the LEE die set. And I do have the LEE crimp die. I'll be putting some loads together over winter.
Winter has arrived at the Mason Dixon Line, zero-degree-F wind chill last night. Drove me to reading the latest GUN DIGEST, 76th ed. of 2022.
Hooray ! We are winning. In all accounts found in that book there are no lies about the .458 WinMag. Even Terry Wieland has shut up about the .458 WM versus Lott Big Lie.
Joe Coogan's article "Guns of the African Professionals" shows that over the last 125 years, the top picks are the .458 WinMag and the .470 NE. More than 25% of the PHs loved that .458 WinMag. The list started with Finn Aagaard and ended 160 names later with Dougie Wright. Both first and last on the alphabetical listing preferred the .458 Win. Mag.
There is a nice piece by Phil Shoemaker, "HANDGUNS AND BEAR PROTECTION: A Master Guides' Opinion" in which he mentions longing for Old Ugly the .458 WinMag above all other artillery.
Patrick Sweeney article "How to Tune Your AR-15" reminds me of the great difference a throat can make. 5.56 Nato chamber digests loads that can be dangerous in the short and tight throat of a .223 Rem.
Just like a perfectly safe .458 WM+ load can be dangerous in a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Suppressors can give a free-bore-boost in velocity. I am thinking that is sort of why a .458 WM+ can beat a SAAMI .458 Lott with same 400-gr bullet, COL, and powder charge. The COL is that of the .458 Lott crimped on the factory bullet cannelure. The .458 WM with shorter brass and longer bullet projection produces identical powder compression at same COL as the .458 Lott.
400-gr Woodleigh PPSN loaded to 3.425" COL
.458 Lott gave only 2570 fps according to the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual.
My .458 WM+ with same bullet, powder, and COL gave +2620 fps, over 50 fps faster, and you know it has to be at lower pressure than the pressure in the SAAMI .458 Lott. Physics does not lie. Must be the FREE BORE BOOST EFFECT.
Bob, Great Blog post! I mourn for my Ruger #1 long departed to a friend who really "had to have it." It was perfectly suitable for anything I ever hunted with it. Frankly, I could reload it just a fast as the bolt guys who take the gun off their shoulder, which if you watch hunting video's seems to be almost everybody. Only needed to reload it once on a running bull elk. Some pretty poor shooting on my part as he ran across an Alfalfa field 90 degrees to me at 400+ yards led me to reload several times. Once I got the lead right, down he went. Also I have written on the "other" forum about pulling an unbroken stomach out of a doe deer with the 458 and FN cast bullet just like your story did on the bear. Shot in the chest at 15 yards or so as she ran out of a thicket. Bullet exited flank as did the stomach. I saw it and thought "oh no! What a mess this will be!" Nope bullet simply created the vacuum behind the diaphragm and out went the stomach behind the bullet with no mess at all.
Thanks Sir Dennis;
And I recall reading 'on the "other" forum' your remarks about the "unbroken stomach" following the bullet exit!
I have spent much of the day in a reread of many of these pages... It is well worth it! And thanks to all for contributions, and especially to Sir Ron for his prodigious work!
I'm off today to hunt the mighty Sambar deer and accompanying me will be 'Fatso', my beloved Zastava M70 in .458WM... The load I'm using will be the 450gn Woodleigh Hydro at a leisurely 2300fps... I just hope this load will provide enough penetration... ;-)
Will keep you all posted but I'm quietly confident Fatso will be up to the job...
Good Luck Sir Russ. We hope well for you and dear Fatso.
News from the world is that Hammer Bullets might be getting around to this special request soon. There is hope that we will soon see the real thing instead of my blurry mockup image.
Still awaiting what comes of the above suggestion. Yep, one planet, one bullet, a .458-cal 400-grain Shock Hammer at 2500 to 2600 fps from the .458 WM+. Probably could shoot it base forward and slow it down to 2400 fps for the rare elephant needing a brain shot, or for whaling insurance shots.
This lube appears to be clear powder coat. There is no oily / greasy feel to the bullets.
The Newer, Cast Performance bullets, from their website:
Never settling for second best, the result is a company whose bullets and cartridges will deliver exactly what you need every round, every time.
OUR PROPRIETARY CLEAR LUBE COATS THE ENTIRE SURFACE OF OUR CAST PERFORMANCE BULLETS. THEY ARE READY TO LOAD AS IS. Our hunting bullets are cast from LBT style molds. Our bullets are cast from virgin alloy and heat-treated to a Brinnel hardness of 18-21. This provides for a hard yet ductile bullet, which will not fragment, or blow-up on the toughest hide or even bone. We manufacture both gas checked and plain base for most popular handgun hunting calibers. Our gas checked bullets do not lead your bore. Our casting/lubrication process has allowed us to shoot our cast bullets in test rifles as fast as 3100 fps.
Good Luck Sir Russ. We hope well for you and dear Fatso.
News from the world is that Hammer Bullets might be getting around to this special request soon. There is hope that we will soon see the real thing instead of my blurry mockup image.
Still awaiting what comes of the above suggestion. Yep, one planet, one bullet, a .458-cal 400-grain Shock Hammer at 2500 to 2600 fps from the .458 WM+. Probably could shoot it base forward and slow it down to 2400 fps for the rare elephant needing a brain shot, or for whaling insurance shots.
Very interesting on the possible Hammer Bullets’ modification. I have been considering purchasing their current 402 grain Shock Hammer. But, the BC stalled me. I have a pretty good supply of 350 grain North Fork Cup Point expanding solids. I am not sure if the current 402 grain would have much advantage.
BadBoyMelvin, If you can hit the Sambar with that load, it should be yours with no follow up.
Our .458 450 grain NF and Punch loads with MV of 2150 fps used in our bullet testing Safari shot through several Cape Buff and a frontal brain shot on elephant went through the head and into the body - DRT.
Even a big bad Sambar should be no challenge for your loads.
The wound channel and exit hole size with that 450-gr HYDRO on a Sambar should be interesting. May the red gods smile on Sir Russ.
And Sir Larry has got me remembering to try a 400-grain hardcast-PCP-GC at 2500 fps. I am sure my alloy can handle it if some of the Cast Performance Bullets have been successfully used at 3100 fps.
I want to be able to use all sorts of 400-grainers at 1800 fps to 2600 fps. If a 400-grain soft is insufficient then a 400-gr FN solid of copper or brass monometal will back it up. If bullets from 250 to 550 grains are eminently practical then simplify it to 400-grainer for ultimate practicality ..
For close-range impacts inside of 50 yards, starting off at 2500 fps MV, the North Fork, or Hammer Bullet might be better.
And of course for the really serious work, in close, a brass or copper FN solid is required. 400-grains will do, but feel free to use a heavier solid if it makes you happy.
Maybe the 400-gr Shock Hammer will make a better FN solid when shot backwards, but the current 402-gr Shock Hammer might do in a pinch, no more than 2400 fps needed, and shortest COL practicable.
Might very well turn out that the 400-gr Shock Hammer is the one and only bullet needed for this planet. Time will tell. Only The Shadow knows, etc.
I also have some 380 grain Lehigh copper flat points. Originally purchased for 45-70 use. I have not measured the length. By eyeballing they look equal in length, or very close to, the Cast Performance 460 grain flat points. The Lehigh 380 grain at least looks as though, that it would slap the snot out of anything in North America. Whether fired from 45-70 or 458 Winchester.
The wound channel and exit hole size with that 450-gr HYDRO on a Sambar should be interesting. May the red gods smile on Sir Russ.
And Sir Larry has got me remembering to try a 400-grain hardcast-PCP-GC at 2500 fps. I am sure my alloy can handle it if some of the Cast Performance Bullets have been successfully used at 3100 fps.
I want to be able to use all sorts of 400-grainers at 1800 fps to 2600 fps. If a 400-grain soft is insufficient then a 400-gr FN solid of copper or brass monometal will back it up. If bullets from 250 to 550 grains are eminently practical then simplify it to 400-grainer for ultimate practicality ..
Sir Ron Great work on the cast bullets. The hammer test is a good one! Stands the test of time. Works on democracies too by the way but I digress. On alloy and effect; hardness and toughness are different critters and as game bullets toughness is the goal. As you speed those pointier bullets up hardness may get you accuracy but it won’t get you terminal performance. All bullets have to get weight forward bias inside the animal to be reliable performers. Hard pointy bullets won’t do that leading to the same kinds of performance problems you observed with the Barnes 500 tsx in your tests. They will deviate and or tumble to get weight forward. Cast needs to hit, expand a bit, and continue on weight forward through the animal for best results. That prefers a softer and tougher bullet over a hard one. I hope that we also can compress, get weight forward and survive our current hammer test as a Nation. Best regards Sir
Sir Ron Great work on the cast bullets. The hammer test is a good one! Stands the test of time. Works on democracies too by the way but I digress. On alloy and effect; hardness and toughness are different critters and as game bullets toughness is the goal. As you speed those pointier bullets up hardness may get you accuracy but it won’t get you terminal performance. All bullets have to get weight forward bias inside the animal to be reliable performers. Hard pointy bullets won’t do that leading to the same kinds of performance problems you observed with the Barnes 500 tsx in your tests. They will deviate and or tumble to get weight forward. Cast needs to hit, expand a bit, and continue on weight forward through the animal for best results. That prefers a softer and tougher bullet over a hard one. I hope that we also can compress, get weight forward and survive our current hammer test as a Nation. Best regards Sir
Sir, I'm not sure that i agree completely. I've killed Buffalo, bison moose and grizzly with hard cast flat points out of revolvers that were cast to maintain their shape as much as possible and they killed very effectively with most exiting.
We agree; most likely completely. I just did not use enough words to say it all. I too shot flat point "hard cast" meaning heat treated wheel weights out of the 44 mag through both front shoulders of an elk. That bullet however had both antimony and arsenic to make it tough and still was likely less than 16-18 BHN. We all shot "hard cast" out of the 44's and 45's back in the day. Fact is they were not all that hard. Secondly their shape helped them sustain their direction and integrity while in the elk. Look at the length of the 250 SW 44 or 45 caliber and compare it to the 400 - 500 .458 pills. The longer the bullet, the more it is likely to bend and then deviate all other things equal. Lastly, a 250 grain SW 44 can turn about in a game animal and you will likely never know as it goes base first just as well as it goes point first. Ross Seyfreid shot a tremendous about of BIG game with the flat point cast out of big revolvers. Some of those were very hard bullets. The last article I remember reading of his was something like, "In search of the perfect bullet." It was about casting a hard body and s soft nose on those revolver bullets. I will say my preference in a 458 cast bullet would still be for tough and softer than a hard as hubcaps linotype bullet, but indeed, it is at the end my preference. Anything I shoot at game will have as big of Flat point as I can load and feed for the same reason we all shot them out of the revolvers. Thank you for adding to the narrative!
I also have some 380 grain Lehigh copper flat points. Originally purchased for 45-70 use. I have not measured the length. By eyeballing they look equal in length, or very close to, the Cast Performance 460 grain flat points. The Lehigh 380 grain at least looks as though, that it would slap the snot out of anything in North America. Whether fired from 45-70 or 458 Winchester.
Out of stock and no back order wherever I have looked, boo hoo. But buy a donkey to Sir Larry for the reminder.
I say Sir Dennis and Sir John are on the same page, and I agree. The pointier and harder cast bullets are for varmint work. I have also noted that best accuracy comes when more than half of the bullet length is full diameter before the ogive taper starts. That favors the bigger FN meplats too.
I also have some 380 grain Lehigh copper flat points. Originally purchased for 45-70 use. I have not measured the length. By eyeballing they look equal in length, or very close to, the Cast Performance 460 grain flat points. The Lehigh 380 grain at least looks as though, that it would slap the snot out of anything in North America. Whether fired from 45-70 or 458 Winchester.
Out of stock and no back order wherever I have looked, boo hoo. But buy a donkey to Sir Larry for the reminder.
I just read an announcement that was on 4 January 2022. Wison Combat has purchased Lehigh.
Bill Wilson: First we will be increasing production, we have a fairly large backlog of orders that we need to fill. Then it will be signing up new customers and all the time working on new innovative products.
Bill Wilson: First we will be increasing production, we have a fairly large backlog of orders that we need to fill. Then it will be signing up new customers and all the time working on new innovative products.
Bill Wilson: The only significant change in the near term will be that we will no longer sell products directly to the consumer, rather we’ll direct them to our business partners like Brownells, Graf, Midway, Natchez and Wilson Combat for retail purchases. Eventually most operations will move to northeast Texas.
This is a 1994 publication of a sort of business guide for beginner gunsmiths. I think that one of my 1987-1988 adventures with an apprentice gunsmith of the author was thinly disguised as advice on what not to do to a customer's rifle:
The .450 BS barrel and action also came as a package deal. Willis Fowler had barrels and actions just gathering dust at his shop. He had Barnes Supreme reloading dies from RCBS and Barnes Ammo basic brass galore too ! Double lucky me ! Two birds with one stone and then some !
There is very little consistent information on the .450 Barnes Supreme. Above may be as good as it gets.
From JJ Donnelly:
From the defunct domain of AEM, it was once a promising thing:
Despite the text speaking of a sharp shoulder, the table of dimensions and drawing sure do not show it. 7*10' was calculated using RCBS software on the tabulated measurement in AEM.
Measuring my fire-formed brass and plugging it into RCBS shows 23 degrees per side for shoulder, or 46-degree cone angle.
Stay tuned for that 1958 brochure from Frank N. Barnes, and a picture of my fire-formed .450 BS shoulder.
The .458 Winchester Magnum was a scapegoat for commercialism, sacrificed for the sins of the many who lusted after wildcats. MEOW ! I am a sinner. My dalliance with Barnes Supreme demonstrates this purrrfectly.
The .458 Winchester Magnum has always been plumb righteous. It never was a failure except for when human sinners failed it by faulty factory ammunition or just plain old lies about it.
That 226 Quick Twist was well ahead of it's time! Man, that is some cool reading RC. Thank you!
Damn! man it'd be cool to hang at Sir Ron's place for a weekend looking over his pile of 400's and 458 rifles of one flavor or another, hell, i'll have butcher put us up 50lbs boneless country ribs, have Wife make us up a bucket of baked beans with vinegar bbq sauce and a bucket of coleslaw and 4 loaves of fresh rising wheat bread and rolls! you bring the beer! ; ]
I could get on his press and mash my .416 cal partitions down to .411" too!
That 226 Quick Twist was well ahead of it's time! Man, that is some cool reading RC. Thank you!
Sir Scotty, I found that very interesting too, 120-gr/.22-cal at 2700 fps from a 1:5-1/4" twist barrel, using surplus 50BMG powder in a .30-06 neck-down. If it were a true .226-cal with thick jacket, there would be a pencil of lead somewhere in the middle of it, nonbonded. If so, sectional density would be 0.336 and that there bullet would be a Roy Weatherby style buffalo buster.
Sir Jerry, I do have a humble colletion of mostly shop mule .458-cal rifles, but would be embarrassed by your armory, I am sure. A Square Table Picnic would be fun though, after a Square Table Hunt one of these days. Heck, we might even get the chickens involved for a Square Table Dance after the cookin' and feastin'.
Sir Dennis, You are invited too, but personally, I think Alaska has more to offer. The main difference is the scenery. I always stop in at the KFC in White Horse, Yukon when I drive. I was the only white guy in the place last time I was there. The natives love that greasy stuff. They don't have to dip it in seal oil. Hope this covid mess is over soon. Seems to be turning back into the common cold like it was 45 years ago in that microbiology course.
Besides the Barnes .226 Quick Twist (gee whiz) that Barnes brochure from 1957 does give an interesting glimpse of bullets and loads competing with the then new kid on the block .458 Winchester Magnum. The .450 B-J Express was out a few years before that, and nomenclature became fluid, with Barnes also calling it the ".458 B-J Express" and ".458 Winchester Improved." Stated: "Rifles chambered for this cartridge will also shoot the new .458 Winchester factory cartridge." And I bet they made some serviceable .450 BJE brass thataway.
Seems the .450 BS "Magnum" came after the .450 BJE "Short." Maybe Barnes got wind of the .450 Watts Short that followed the .450 Watts Magnum ? Whatever, undeniably everybody was riding on the coattails of James Watts. Any other fiction would be stranger than that truth.
Many of the Barnes-Johnson Express carts based on the 2.5" H&H-belted case were recommended for 3-5/8" (3.625") magazine length, from .276-cal on up, due to the long bullets seated out, long COL. Maybe Watts and Barnes-Johnson used the long-leade throat and Winchester copied it ?
The .416 Barnes Supreme seems to have been a post-1957 development. You know, after James Watts handed some .416/.450 Watts Short dummies to JackO'Connor, years earlier, who then gave them to Mr. Chatfield-Taylor.
Who was the Johnson of Barnes-Johnson ? Surely not Harold Johnson who got the idea for the .450 Alaskan from, yep, James Watts' .450/.348 WCF when Watts was building roads on the Kenai Peninsula. So James Watts claimed.
Bullets and loads of .458-cal interest from that 1957 Barnes brochure:
.45-70 Gov't. bullets, all with 0.032" jacket, RNSN 300-, 400-, 500-gr. .450 "Magnum" bullets, all with 0.049" jacket, RNSN 400-, 500-, 600-gr.
.458 Winchester Imp. and .458 B-J Express aka .450 B-J Express: 500-gr bullet, 78.0 gr IMR-4320, 2200 fps, 22" barrel
.450 Magnum or .450 Barnes Supreme: 500-gr bullet, 93.0 gr IMR-4320, 2400 fps, 24" barrel 600-gr bullet, 87.0 gr IMR-4320, 2200 fps, 24" barrel
On 15 Sept/09, I made loads for the CZ550 using the 500gr Hornady RN from six powders: 83 grs748, 78 grs H335, 80 grs AA 2460, 78 grs 4320, 78 grs Varget and 76 grs IMR4064.
The 78 grs 4320 gave 2165 fps (corrected to MV) with this note: "Not max." (Compared to Barnes data)
COL for all was 3.34".
The 78 grs of Varget gave 2158 fps (corrected to MV); 78 of H335 = 2204 and 80 of 2460 = 2206 (each corrected to MV). 83 grs of 748 was a big disappointment at 2076; 76grs of IMR4064 = 2108 fps corrected to MV - that was not max in MV but in compression. I did 79 grs H4895 later on Jan 7/10and got 2266 ( -7 *C) AA2230 wasn't available in this neck of the woods at the time.
The CZ had a 25" barrel. Just some history from my experience.
Sir Jerry, I do have a humble colletion of mostly shop mule .458-cal rifles, but would be embarrassed by your armory, I am sure. A Square Table Picnic would be fun though, after a Square Table Hunt one of these days. Heck, we might even get the chickens involved for a Square Table Dance after the cookin' and feastin'.
No judgment here Sir Ron, i would be a mere humble student listening to the stories, looking at the weapons, and maybe even reading over notes/documents/machine work of decades and decades of discovery and experimentation, all that uptake would surely split my wee pea brain!
LOL, was thinking the same thing when i typed that, swatter heavily marked with thick black permanent marker..........................458 WM+ PEST ELIMINATOR!!!!!
I don't know why, but I can't help to think about watching The Beverly Hillbillies, back in the Day, when Jed and Jethro were shooting Flies of the Entrance Gate, and that Goofy Banker, Mr. Drysdale asked what they were Doing and they explained that they were just shooting the wings off the flies, and Drysdale was just shaking his Head, with that goofy facial expression! LOL!!! My Brother in Law, and I, would laugh about that scene for years! LOL!!!
For Some Reason, I wouldn't be surprised if Sir Ron is that kind of Shot!!!! You just don't acquire that much knowledge, and experience, without being a good Shooter, and a Great Teacher, and Instructor, Influencer! To be willing to share this much knowledge, and take it another level, Certainly Impresses me! Sir Bagwell, would be Proud!
Craig Boddington has an article in the March Shooting times on the top 5 cartridges and his pick is the .458 Lott. Interestingly on page 43, he states, "I took an early .458 Lott to Zanbia in 1984, barrel work done by Jack himself".
He does not state whether he used handloads in his converted rifle, but being an early conversion, is likely.
With a 485 grain big flat nose cast slug, you don’t have to hit the fly. A close flyby will suck the wings off!😉
That was the gossip when the Armalite was new. Bullet tumbled and only had to pass close and you were done in. Made the news in the 1960's with the Wally Mellish 8 day siege at Glenfield in NSW. He asked for an Armalite and the Police Commissioner gave him one.
I don't know why, but I can't help to think about watching The Beverly Hillbillies, back in the Day, when Jed and Jethro were shooting Flies of the Entrance Gate, and that Goofy Banker, Mr. Drysdale asked what they were Doing and they explained that they were just shooting the wings off the flies, and Drysdale was just shaking his Head, with that goofy facial expression! LOL!!! My Brother in Law, and I, would laugh about that scene for years! LOL!!!
For Some Reason, I wouldn't be surprised if Sir Ron is that kind of Shot!!!! You just don't acquire that much knowledge, and experience, without being a good Shooter, and a Great Teacher, and Instructor, Influencer! To be willing to share this much knowledge, and take it another level, Certainly Impresses me! Sir Bagwell, would be Proud!
LOL, Yep. bet 'Ol Saint Bagwell is keeping a steady check on us ; ]
Craig Boddington has an article in the March Shooting times on the top 5 cartridges and his pick is the .458 Lott. Interestingly on page 43, he states, "I took an early .458 Lott to Zambia in 1984, barrel work done by Jack himself".
He does not state whether he used handloads in his converted rifle, but being an early conversion, is likely.
So, Craig "Shill" Boddington is at it again. Hawking for the commercial cabal as usual, pushing the weak sister .458 Lott. Some gunwriters are hopelessly, helplessly insane or evil. Like the sociopath or criminally insane for whom there is no hope except a religious conversion. With all other known religions of the world having failed them, a new transmogrification must be tried. I am now a practitioner of ".458 Winchester Magnum Shamanism," a holyman or witchdoctor, yes a shaman. This is a holistic practice to heal the insane that have been failed by religion and medicine.
To hell with modern medicine. I was never a "candy man" when I was one of them. My latest theory is that since they got busted for the opioid over-prescribing crisis business model, they are adopting the covid pandemic crisis as the replacement money maker. Problem is, they are cannibalizing the industry, driving their people away or into the stew pot. Cannibals ! Time for the shaman to re-emerge from antiquity.
I will meet in person or by telemedicine consultation with any .458 Winchester Magnum denier(s) desiring enlightenment. Yes, group sessions or individual treatment, whether they like it or not. Introductory screen for remote session is seen on television in background here:
Craig Boddington has an article in the March Shooting times on the top 5 cartridges and his pick is the .458 Lott. Interestingly on page 43, he states, "I took an early .458 Lott to Zambia in 1984, barrel work done by Jack himself".
He does not state whether he used handloads in his converted rifle, but being an early conversion, is likely.
So, Craig "Shill" Boddington is at it again. Hawking for the commercial cabal as usual, pushing the weak sister .458 Lott. Some gunwriters are hopelessly, helplessly insane or evil. Like the sociopath or criminally insane for whom there is no hope except a religious conversion. With all other known religions of the world having failed them, a new transmogrification must be tried. I am now a practitioner of ".458 Winchester Magnum Shamanism," a holyman or witchdoctor, yes a shaman. This is a holistic practice to heal the insane that have been failed by religion and medicine.
To hell with modern medicine. I was never a "candy man" when I was one of them. My latest theory is that since they got busted for the opioid over-prescribing crisis business model, they are adopting the covid pandemic crisis as the replacement money maker. Problem is, they are cannibalizing the industry, driving their people away or into the stew pot. Cannibals ! Time for the shaman to re-emerge from antiquity.
I will meet in person or by telemedicine consultation with any .458 Winchester Magnum denier(s) desiring enlightenment. Yes, group sessions or individual treatment, whether they like it or not. Introductory screen for remote session is seen on television in background here:
Hey, there is nothing wrong with playing with different rifles. I might get a CZ 550 Magnum re-barreled to .460 WbyMag but certainly would not sacrifice a CZ .458 WinMag for that. A CZ .458 Lott is a different story. That would become a .460 WbyMag yesterday, as long as I already had a .458 WinMag.
Craig Boddington has an article in the March Shooting times on the top 5 cartridges and his pick is the .458 Lott. Interestingly on page 43, he states, "I took an early .458 Lott to Zambia in 1984, barrel work done by Jack himself".
He does not state whether he used handloads in his converted rifle, but being an early conversion, is likely.
So, Craig "Shill" Boddington is at it again. Hawking for the commercial cabal as usual, pushing the weak sister .458 Lott. Some gunwriters are hopelessly, helplessly insane or evil. Like the sociopath or criminally insane for whom there is no hope except a religious conversion. With all other known religions of the world having failed them, a new transmogrification must be tried. I am now a practitioner of ".458 Winchester Magnum Shamanism," a holyman or witchdoctor, yes a shaman. This is a holistic practice to heal the insane that have been failed by religion and medicine.
To hell with modern medicine. I was never a "candy man" when I was one of them. My latest theory is that since they got busted for the opioid over-prescribing crisis business model, they are adopting the covid pandemic crisis as the replacement money maker. Problem is, they are cannibalizing the industry, driving their people away or into the stew pot. Cannibals ! Time for the shaman to re-emerge from antiquity.
I will meet in person or by telemedicine consultation with any .458 Winchester Magnum denier(s) desiring enlightenment. Yes, group sessions or individual treatment, whether they like it or not. Introductory screen for remote session is seen on television in background here:
Regarding the .458WM, how's this from the past? "...it is doubtful if more power is necessary until safaris are possible on Mars or some other planet." P. O. Ackley Vol 1 HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS & RELOADERS Page 500.
Regarding the .458WM, how's this from the past? "...it is doubtful if more power is necessary until safaris are possible on Mars or some other planet." P. O. Ackley Vol 1 HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS & RELOADERS Page 500.
What did those old timers know anyway ? They were killing things with 6.5 MS , 7x57 and 30-06's ? 🙄
I think we owe a lot to Remington, Barnes and even Swift in that 1988-89 period for the escalation of both big bore interest and the sum of more ballistically superior bullet profiles because up until then, the average consumer thought of the .458 as a 50-100 yard thumper with 500 grain round nose bullets and we now seldom consider them for overall use as they limit the potential of the cartridge.
Sure, the round nose heavy weight, my preferences being the 550gn Woodleigh, is a great thumper at the ranges it was intended for and on the game associated with close range hunting, but that is not the scope of use nor the potential value of the .458 case.
Because of that, sparked interested in pointed .458 bullets more more than 30 years ago, I learned pretty quickly that the 300gn X bullet could be loaded to a point blank of around 250 yards opening up its range capability to lots of field trials on Australia's feral game. Would liked to have taken more larger game but who wouldn't?
After using, 300, 325, 350, 400, 405, 450, 500, 550 and 600 grain bullets, the 400 grain weight became the best compromise if an all rounder was desired and then one only needed a very heavy game load based on opinion as the 400gn X at least for me, never failed to perform on animals up to near a ton and I would use it on anything I ever killed or may ever take.
I had a 200 yard range where I lived in the Colorado Rockies with a backdrop hillside of pine trees behind and to the side of the targets I used. These trees were around 18-24 inches in diameter and those Barnes 400gn X bullets I'd loaded up for my .458 and had no problem completely penetrating them at that 200 yard distance. Even at .460 Weatherby velocities on large game, 5 foot penetration on muscle and bone was had. The value of this thread is the collective input from various people who have done different things with the same bullets and cartridges as that collective is what generates the theme of confidence you can get before delving into perhaps previously unknown in bullets and cartridges.
Russ is hunting Sambar at the moment and is certainly not the first Aussie hunter to take a .458 for those elusive and tough deer. The objective being to drop them as fast as possible as they take off like whitetail and will even hide in water or thick brush including 1/4 acre blackberry thickets much taller than a man where they weave their way in and just sit down out of sight. When the sambar is found and earned, its up to the cartridge and bullet so here's to Russ and his .458.
Well said Mr Aussie brother. Facts and experiences build strong walls in the hunting/ shooting game. This thread was and still is the best example of the power of simple truth telling in the gun world that I know of. The liars and deniers can’t climb the mountain we have built here. Thanks for your contribution.
To all Knights of the realm, the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood realm, of course:
It is grand to see so many honoring the .458 Winchester Magnum.
I am volunteering to be the Shaman of the Realm, as well as handling secretary duties. Just like with my position as "Surgeon" at my local chapter of Sons of the American Revolution, there are essentially no duties except for making up something to do.
So, I am recommending that we of the Brotherhood adopt a motto: SEMPER FIDELIS QUATTUOR QUINQUE OCTO "Semper fi 4-5-8" for short. Always faithful to the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Like you can always depend on the USMC, you can always depend on the Four Five Eight. I am sure if Col. Craig "Shill" Boddington ever got out of line in the USMC, the USMC would set him straight. I will be looking for that March 2022 SHOOTING TIMES.
The way the world is going now, we must not falter in the crusade for truth. Be strong. Yes, Trump did win. Let's go Brandon.
I think we owe a lot to Remington, Barnes and even Swift in that 1988-89 period for the escalation of both big bore interest and the sum of more ballistically superior bullet profiles because up until then, the average consumer thought of the .458 as a 50-100 yard thumper with 500 grain round nose bullets and we now seldom consider them for overall use as they limit the potential of the cartridge.
Sure, the round nose heavy weight, my preferences being the 550gn Woodleigh, is a great thumper at the ranges it was intended for and on the game associated with close range hunting, but that is not the scope of use nor the potential value of the .458 case.
Because of that, sparked interested in pointed .458 bullets more more than 30 years ago, I learned pretty quickly that the 300gn X bullet could be loaded to a point blank of around 250 yards opening up its range capability to lots of field trials on Australia's feral game. Would liked to have taken more larger game but who wouldn't?
After using, 300, 325, 350, 400, 405, 450, 500, 550 and 600 grain bullets, the 400 grain weight became the best compromise if an all rounder was desired and then one only needed a very heavy game load based on opinion as the 400gn X at least for me, never failed to perform on animals up to near a ton and I would use it on anything I ever killed or may ever take.
I had a 200 yard range where I lived in the Colorado Rockies with a backdrop hillside of pine trees behind and to the side of the targets I used. These trees were around 18-24 inches in diameter and those Barnes 400gn X bullets I'd loaded up for my .458 and had no problem completely penetrating them at that 200 yard distance. Even at .460 Weatherby velocities on large game, 5 foot penetration on muscle and bone was had. The value of this thread is the collective input from various people who have done different things with the same bullets and cartridges as that collective is what generates the theme of confidence you can get before delving into perhaps previously unknown in bullets and cartridges.
Russ is hunting Sambar at the moment and is certainly not the first Aussie hunter to take a .458 for those elusive and tough deer. The objective being to drop them as fast as possible as they take off like whitetail and will even hide in water or thick brush including 1/4 acre blackberry thickets much taller than a man where they weave their way in and just sit down out of sight. When the sambar is found and earned, its up to the cartridge and bullet so here's to Russ and his .458.
To all Knights of the realm, the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood realm, of course:
It is grand to see so many honoring the .458 Winchester Magnum.
I am volunteering to be the Shaman of the Realm, as well as handling secretary duties. Just like with my position as "Surgeon" at my local chapter of Sons of the American Revolution, there are essentially no duties except for making up something to do.
So, I am recommending that we of the Brotherhood adopt a motto: SEMPER FIDELIS QUATTUOR QUINQUE OCTO "Semper fi 4-5-8" for short. Always faithful to the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Like you can always depend on the USMC, you can always depend on the Four Five Eight. I am sure if Col. Craig "Shill" Boddington ever got out of line in the USMC, the USMC would set him straight. I will be looking for that March 2022 SHOOTING TIMES.
The way the world is going now, we must not falter in the crusade for truth. Be strong. Yes, Trump did win. Let's go Brandon.
.458 Cal-400g Shock Hammer In stock and ready to ship! $65.00
We designed this big bore Shock Hammer on the request of a customer who wanted the one gun one bullet solution for Hammering anything in the world. Here is the result. A 3mm hollow point that will open easily and produce robust heavy petals with enough weight retention to give deep penetration on the toughest of animals.
That is like $2.65 per bullet. But that is nothing when they are worth their weight in diamonds. It will be easy to develop a loads with COL minimum of 3.24" to 3.54" that will run from 2400 fps to 2600 fps MV. You can run them at 3.34" COL and +2400 fps working through the standard .30-06-length magazine box, or load them long, single-shot-style, and they will still eject from the unaltered factory SAAMI .458 WinMag at up to 3.54" COL.
G1 BC estimate of 0.419
Those PDR bands by Hammer make for low drag. Will test at 2500 fps MV out to 600 yards to see if drop is close to what that BC predicts. Maybe get a young technofriend with Lab Radar on it too.
Flat rate shipping is $11.00 for quantities up to 500 bullets I reckon. That is 2.2 cents per bullet. Buy a thousand and they might ship for 1.1 cents per bullet.
.458 Cal-400g Shock Hammer In stock and ready to ship! $65.00
We designed this big bore Shock Hammer on the request of a customer who wanted the one gun one bullet solution for Hammering anything in the world. Here is the result. A 3mm hollow point that will open easily and produce robust heavy petals with enough weight retention to give deep penetration on the toughest of animals.
That is like $2.65 per bullet. But that is nothing when they are worth their weight in diamonds. It will be easy to develop a loads with COL minimum of 3.24" to 3.54" that will run from 2400 fps to 2600 fps MV. You can run them at 3.34" COL and +2400 fps working through the standard .30-06-length magazine box, or load them long, single-shot-style, and they will still eject from the unaltered factory SAAMI .458 WinMag at up to 3.54" COL.
G1 BC estimate of 0.419
Those PDR bands by Hammer make for low drag. Will test at 2500 fps MV out to 600 yards to see if drop is close to what that BC predicts. Maybe get a young technofriend with Lab Radar on it too.
Man that'll work Sir Ron, here is where i believe the AA-2230 powder will shine, in my guesstimated mind on a set and forget hunting scope i took the middle number of 2500 fps, +3 at 100 should zero around 210 yards and be 8 or 9 inches low at 300 yards, bullet should still be packing near 1800 fps and may be a little more than 2 feet low at 400 yards, with a Mil or MOA twist em up scope like a Nightforce or Bushnell LRTS hits to 500+ yards would be cake, good work Sir.
Congratulations Sir Ron on motivating Hammer Bullets to produce what may very well become the best 400gr/.458 ever!
Unfortunately we'll never see it in Canada in my lifetime with a cost like that. But maybe I could send a direct order from heaven!?
In the meantime, I've a question:
I've 49 VERY hard-cast bullets in .459" . BHN should be well over 20. The average weight is 410 grs, they are impregnated with a copper coat, one grease groove .30" from the flat base (with slight bevel, and no GC) and a crimp groove at .435" from a flat .30" nose; obviously made for the likes of a Marlin. I've had them "forever", getting them from an add in HANDLOADER over two decades ago.
It looks like I've only fired one - not sure why, but I think it sort of "key-holed" - it's vague with me now. The lube in the grease-groove is a pale red - not sure if it's still good. I'd like to try one (or more if that goes well) in the Ruger .458.
Question: What do you think? When you get 10 secs to think about it and give a short reply...
PS: They are 1.1" BOL and could be seated to a COL of 3.2" - 3.225" so case mouth is just above the grease groove.
Excellent to see a BC breaking .400 for the .458. !!
Are these designed for 80% bullet weight retention ?
Sir Larry, Yes, that is neato on the BC. Theoretical weight retention in complete bow-off of petals down to squared off at bottom of hollow point: 64% That was determined by putting one on a bench grinder until 100% meplat appeared at base of the HP. I will shoot some into 25-yard water buckets at various velocities, like 1600 fps, 2100 fps and 2600 fps MV, from the mighty .458 WM and .458 WM+ for starters. Seeing when the petals start to open up and when they come off completely may require further testing. Every other copper monometal HP seems to act like that. Will see if Shock Hammers behave any differently, like brass HP will blow off petals at low velocity and essentially same at high velocity.
With about 1/3 weight in petals as secondary missiles and 2/3 weight in FN solid cylinder shank penetrator, with a little boat tail at the other end to shift CG forward, or a mushroom with greater weight retention and frontal diameter ... either seems to be a recipe for success.
... AA-2230 powder will shine, in my guesstimated mind on a set and forget hunting scope i took the middle number of 2500 fps, +3 at 100 should zero around 210 yards and be 8 or 9 inches low at 300 yards, bullet should still be packing near 1800 fps and may be a little more than 2 feet low at 400 yards, with a Mil or MOA twist em up scope like a Nightforce or Bushnell LRTS hits to 500+ yards would be cake, good work Sir.
Sir Jerry, That is an excellent plan. 80.0 grains of AA-2230 ought to do it at sub-3.4" COL if the GSC 400-gr HV was any indication. Add more powder and longer COL to unnecessarily go faster than 2500 fps.
That is sort of like my old Berry's Bullets 409-gr/.459" FN grease lubed bullets, except mine are plain-base, have no copper-washed/plated base treatment.
Your Ruger No. 1 is .459"-grooved like mine, I reckon. It will shoot those bullets with OK accuracy only if you keep the velocity down to about 1200 fps. Mine key-holed at higher speed too. I used 26.0 grains of AA-5744 for a 7-yard instrumental velocity of 1172 fps and 3 shots into an inch at 50 yards.
Nice plinker, barely supersonic. Accuracy will get worse until keyholing assuredly at 1500 fps instrumental.
Alternatively: Degrease them and powder-coat paint them to make them 0.460". Still not the desirable 0.461" for best accuracy.
Alternatively alternatively: Shoot them in a .45-70 with .457" grooves using smokeless loads. SAAMI spec for .45-70 is 0.456" minimum groove, so you will find them with groove diameters from .456" to .459" and hopefully no greater than that !
Sir John, Sure would be nice if Hammer Bullets would do that for us. IIRC they have some videos of their bullets in that stuff, at their website. Steve Davis of Hammer Bullets proprietorship is excited about this bullet, mentioned thinking about necking up his "Fat Girl" wildcat series for it. Based on the .308/.300 Norma case, like a .338 Lapua Magnum improved shortened to about 2.49" case length. Imagine the .458 Fat Girl ! Maybe Kirby Allen will adopt it as his Varmint Dominator Bullet at 4000 fps from his .458 Maximus.
I'll be doing well to shoot them into water buckets. Water is like concrete at near 2600 fps impact.
That is sort of like my old Berry's Bullets 409-gr/.459" FN grease lubed bullets, except mine are plain-base, have no copper-washed/plated base treatment.
Your Ruger No. 1 is .459"-grooved like mine, I reckon. It will shoot those bullets with OK accuracy only if you keep the velocity down to about 1200 fps. Mine key-holed at higher speed too. I used 26.0 grains of AA-5744 for a 7-yard instrumental velocity of 1172 fps and 3 shots into an inch at 50 yards.
Nice plinker, barely supersonic. Accuracy will get worse until keyholing assuredly at 1500 fps instrumental.
Alternatively: Degrease them and powder-coat paint them to make them 0.460". Still not the desirable 0.461" for best accuracy.
Alternatively alternatively: Shoot them in a .45-70 with .457" grooves using smokeless loads. SAAMI spec for .45-70 is 0.456" minimum groove, so you will find them with groove diameters from .456" to .459" and hopefully no greater than that !
Thanks Sir Ron;
I'll do as you say using 26 grs of AA-5744, then try a few until I get a keyhole.
We've just had the worst winter storm so far this year. Looking forward to spring to get out and try some of those 550gr Woodleighs at about 1800. I expect to give a few a flat point of .25".
Sir John, Sure would be nice if Hammer Bullets would do that for us. IIRC they have some videos of their bullets in that stuff, at their website. Steve Davis of Hammer Bullets proprietorship is excited about this bullet, mentioned thinking about necking up his "Fat Girl" wildcat series for it. Based on the .308/.300 Norma case, like a .338 Lapua Magnum improved shortened to about 2.49" case length. Imagine the .458 Fat Girl ! Maybe Kirby Allen will adopt it as his Varmint Dominator Bullet at 4000 fps from his .458 Maximus.
I'll be doing well to shoot them into water buckets. Water is like concrete at near 2600 fps impact.
The gel is helpful in tracking the damage down by the petals and where they shed
I used the 220 HH in my 35 Whelen at 2911 FPS on deer this year shots were 180 to 200 yards. Their were very accurate and terminal damage was very large.
That is sort of like my old Berry's Bullets 409-gr/.459" FN grease lubed bullets, except mine are plain-base, have no copper-washed/plated base treatment.
Your Ruger No. 1 is .459"-grooved like mine, I reckon. It will shoot those bullets with OK accuracy only if you keep the velocity down to about 1200 fps. Mine key-holed at higher speed too. I used 26.0 grains of AA-5744 for a 7-yard instrumental velocity of 1172 fps and 3 shots into an inch at 50 yards.
Nice plinker, barely supersonic. Accuracy will get worse until keyholing assuredly at 1500 fps instrumental.
Alternatively: Degrease them and powder-coat paint them to make them 0.460". Still not the desirable 0.461" for best accuracy.
Alternatively alternatively: Shoot them in a .45-70 with .457" grooves using smokeless loads. SAAMI spec for .45-70 is 0.456" minimum groove, so you will find them with groove diameters from .456" to .459" and hopefully no greater than that
Too hard and Too small. Too hard to bump up with powder to the rear so you will have to ride the bore at low speed. Or if your good with a Hammer, take them out to the anvil in the Blacksmith's shop and whack them with a Two Pounder until they are .460+ enough to size again. The Hammer Test 2.0
Sir Bob, I enjoyed P3 of your blog on the Single shot Big Bores. I've never had a Ruger #1 in .458 but I did in little brother 338WM. I held two rounds between the fingers of my left hand on the forearm and one between the second and third fingers of my shooting hand. I always wear very light leather gloves and had grooves in them and my fingers I think for a few years. No problem reloading the #1 in 2.5 seconds for the second shot while leaving the butt on my shoulder. I would just lower the barrel as I hit the lever sending the brass either over my shoulder or it would hit me in the shoulder, and dropped the single out of the trigger handle in the hole and sweep the lever back as the bore came back up. I wasn't hunting charging buffalo but fleeing Elk so there's that but as you mentioned in your Blog; never had a failure to eject, load or fire with the old #1. dmw
From Col. Craig "Shill" Boddington in the March 2022 edition of SHOOTING TIMES magazine, "Boddington's Top 5 for the Big Five" pp. 38-43, starting on page 42, so as not to drown in the rest of the drivel, just consider what he says about the .458 Winchester Magnum. My interpretive comments on his ramblings will be in bold.
"The .458 Winchester Magnum arrived in 1956, at a time when Kynoch was discontinuing the big Nitro Express cartridges. It quickly became the world-standard big bore and probably accounted for more elephant than any other cartridge. TRUE. Its problem was that with propellants of the day in its short (2.5-inch) case, it was difficult to get it to the promised speed of 2,150 fps with a 500-grain bullet. FALSE. General Hatcher published the H. P. White Laboratory data showing HiVel #2 propellant of 1955 vintage did exactly what Winchester claimed for the .458 Winchester Magnum:
76 degrees F, Relative Humidity 59% Winchester brass/case Winchester No. 120 primer 71.0 grains HiVel #2 propellant ... NO COMPRESSION COL 3.340"
25" barrel, 0.4582" groove diameter, 0.4500" land diameter/bore
Velocity recorded at 20 feet, average of 10 shots = 2160 fps
Chamber pressure average of 10 shots = 50,410 psi
PROPELLANTS HAVE ONLY GOTTEN BETTER SINCE 1955.
"Reports drifted in of erratic ignition and compressed powder charges pushing bullets out."
In other words, the demand for .458 WinMag ammo was so great that the factory had trouble supplying such vast quantities and Quality Assurance went to hell. This smacks of the possibility that Democrat Party voters may have been hired at the factory during a shortage of good help.
"Even earlier, there were .458-caliber wildcats based on the full-length H&H case, including .450 Ackley and .450 Watts. Craig must prefer alphabetical rather than chronological order of those two wildcats. Why Winchester chose to shorten the case remains a mystery." Most mysterious to a small mind.
"My old friend, eccentric writer Jack Lott, experienced problems with the .458, including getting tossed by a buffalo! Craig does not mention that Jack's first shot on that buffalo was a gut shot with a soft nose bullet, and his second shot was with an FMJ solid that deformed and did not track true. Any higher velocity would have likely made that FMJ failure even worse. Moral of the story: The bullet construction matters and so does the bullet placement, especially on the first shot, before all hell breaks loose. Jack continued to hunt with his .458 WinMag after that 1959 incident in Mozambique with Wally Johnson. He continued using it until he was so original as to rechamber one of his .458 WM rifles for 2.8" brass. So his cartridge, the .458 Lott, developed in the early '80s, is ballistically identical to the Ackley and Watts. BALONEY !!! Jack shortened the .450 Watts Magnum (2.850") of 1949 and called it the .458 Lott (2.800") in 1971. Lott simply extended extended the .458 Win.Mag. case with little taper, so then-ubiquitous .458 Win. Mag. ammo could be safely chambered and fired and would generally feed. WHOO HOO !!! Craig makes it sound like it's a dirty thing that .458 WinMag ammo was "ubiquitous." It was still the standard bearer despite having killed more elephant than any other cartridge, like the 5000 or 6000 killed by one Ron Thomson, ditto Richard Harland, etc., two of many wielders of the .458 WinMag in conservation and other shooting. Case capacity easily allows 2,400 fps with a 500-grain bullet, Here Craig is confusing the 465-grain A-Square .458 Lott load data in which a 26" barrel barely made 2,421 fps at 62,300 psi, NOT A 500-GR BULLET. He wrote that section of the A-Square manual about the .458 Lott. but current factory loads are more conservative at about 2,300 fps, yielding 5,800 ft-lbs. Yes, 2,250 fps with a 500-gr bullet from a 24"-barreled .458 Lott at 62,500 psi is "about 2,300 fps." Power and penetration are amazing; the Lott is a thumper on both ends! I took an early .458 Lott to Zambia in 1984, barrel work done by Jack Lott himself. Ho hum. If it was an early wildcat then it probably had a .458 WinMag throat on it, the .458 Lott like Jack built. By the time Craig was writing it up in the A-Square manual of 1996, it had probably been re-throated to its present SAAMI chamber, which has the fingerprints of Art Alphin all over it.
"It was, and is an awsome cartridge. Craig says about his beloved .458 Lott. However, modern propellants and lighter bullets (for buffalo, not for elephant) (arguable) have cured most of the .458 Win. Mag.'s shortfalls. Shortfalls my adze ! There never were any shortfalls for the .458 Winchester Magnum. But at least Craig is getting close to honesty here. Unless hunting brontosaurus (or small armored cars), few of us need the power and recoil of the .458 Lott, much less the the several faster, larger-cased cartridges. In a big bolt-action rifle, primarily with elephant in mind, the .458 Lott is an easy choice. It still offers the option of using .458 Win. Mag. ammo in a pinch and for lighter recoil practice."
Well !!! That is some sort of faint praise for something, but I am not sure what. Poor old Craig, seen on his cable TV appearances, is starting to resemble Joe Biden tottering about, shilling first for this and then for that.
Sir Ron, well done on making a better version of the Barnes 400gr X bullet a reality. Your persistence has been rewarded.
It looks like a great bullet for many uses.
Sir Joe, Buy a donkey for your excellent discernment of a good bullet.
Such discernment reminds me of what a national treasure, nay world treasure was the prodigious Ross Seyfried, all around Gun Crank Extraordinaire and superb writer.
That was until he went whacko and denied the .458 Winchester Magnum. He denied it as surely as Peter's denial of Jesus, three times before the cock crowed. "In Defiance of the .458 Winchester" by Ross Seyfried, RIFLE 211, Jan-Feb 2004 Yet Just in the previous year he had been anthropomorphizing his love for the .458 WinMag onto a Ruger No. 1, saying that it loved paper-patched bullets:
"Paper Patched Bullets" HANDLOADER 220 Dec-Jan 2003, pp. 58-65.
"Modern rifles are often quite happy to use patched bullets. Once again, where it might be difficult to get reasonable accuracy from a .30-06 with bare lead bullets and velocity over 2000 fps, it can be very easy to approach the magical inch groups with paper patches. Further, while I have not pushed the system as far, others have achieved reasonable accuracy out of 'magnums' with velocity over 3,000 fps. I had a stock Ruger No. 1 .458 Winchester Magnum that was absolutely in love with patched bullets. Inch groups were the norm at 2,100 to 2,200 fps, even with pure lead bullets.
"One more bizarre use of paper patches, in conjunction with 'modern rifles' is making undersize jacketed bullets fit the rifle. I have successfully fitted .458-inch bullets to .470 Nitro rifles ..."
Is there hope that Ross will repent? Peter wept when the rooster crowed, and Jesus looked at him. I will weep for joy at the repentance of Ross.
Too hard and Too small. Too hard to bump up with powder to the rear so you will have to ride the bore at low speed. Or if your good with a Hammer, take them out to the anvil in the Blacksmith's shop and whack them with a Two Pounder until they are .460+ enough to size again. The Hammer Test 2.0
Good summary of the problem by Sir Dennis, but I suggest using a bench vice to squeeze the bullet to fatten it, instead of the 2-pound hammer. Put a torque wrench on the vise handle for repeatability. Just kidding.
Sir Ron, I think Bob and I can join you in praying for Ross to have a change of heart, including the truth of the magnificent 458 WM. He really was a masterful shooter and terrific writer. Worthy task for Knights of the Cross to undertake wouldn't you say? Along the lines of searching for the truth; maybe you could help me. I was a Guns and Ammo subscriber for a couple of decades 80's and 90's. In that time period a story appeared titled "The Witness Tree" or "Trees" maybe. The Author was Norm Nixon. All this from memory so... Terrific story and I have always thought from the writing style that it was really written by Ross Seyfried. I have looked and looked on Google without success. Thank you Sir.
Ross Seyfried was one of mt favorite writers - perhaps my favorite until he wrote nonsense on the .458 Win, basically saying the .416 Remington would bury it. I've written about his folly in that prognostication at least a couple of times. Then he disappeared as a writer from Wolfe Publications - what happened?
Thanks Sir Dennis for your support. Actually, when I was really into shooting my Ruger No.1 .45-70s, I was quite a bit faster than 5 sec mentioned in my last blog, but that was in my prime, not today!
I will keep an eye peeled for anything "Witness Tree" or "Tree," with Norm Nixon or Ross Seyfried relationship. What was the story about ?
Yes, all Knights of the Four Five Eight must semper fi on prayers for the soul of Ross Seyfried. Surely the devil made him do it. Did he have a pact with the devil that was called due when he defiantly "denied" the .458 Winchester Magnum ? A .458 Win Shaman exorcism is in order, unless our prayers work. Have buffalo robe, will travel.
Your new 400gr Hammer bullet is going to be a 2500+ fps five points of contact carpet bomb Sir Ron.
YES !!!
Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technologies, Ltd. (very Ltd.) has announced it is discontinuing 400-gr/.458-cal X-TSX production, now that the 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammer bullet is available from Hammer Bullets.
Barnes 500-gr/.458-cal TSX bullets will not be cut off at the base anymore, by BBMT, Ltd. (more limited now) Instead, those too-long-for-caliber bullets will only be shortened to 480-grainers by rhinoplasty. That makes an extremely tough, semi-soft nose FN bullet for magazine filling of .458 WM and .458 WM+ rifles.
BBMT, Ltd. will now shift operations to shortening of the 500-gr/.458-cal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid and remaining stocks of the brass Barnes Banded Solids to produce 400-gr and 450-gr FN solids, to match preferred "soft" bullet weights.
We can also use the semi-solid 400-gr/.458-cal Barnes Buster FN as a "tweener" bullet. It is in between soft and solid and will bulge its nose into a nicely stable shape with heavy impacts.
Ditto on Ross and the .340 Wby. When I first hunted Alaska in 1986 as a resident, it was with a Weatherby FiberMark .340 Wby, and a Freedom Arms .454 Casull Field Grade 7.5" with fixed sights. I had some adventures with those, feared no evil. Weatherby and McMillan were the first ever FACTORY combo for a synthetic-stocked big game rifle, Started circa 1984-1985, IIRC.
Would you be willing to travel for an exorcism if we can locate Ross ? If we fail with the religious approach, we can throw the 8-foot-square bison robe over him and threaten a blanket party if he does not repent. Better see if Sir Jerry can come along too as another spiritual inspiration with some muscle. LOL
Your new 400gr Hammer bullet is going to be a 2500+ fps five points of contact carpet bomb Sir Ron.
YES !!!
Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technologies, Ltd. (very Ltd.) has announced it is discontinuing 400-gr/.458-cal X-TSX production, now that the 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammer bullet is available from Hammer Bullets.
Barnes 500-gr/.458-cal TSX bullets will not be cut off at the base anymore, by BBMT, Ltd. (more limited now) Instead, those too-long-for-caliber bullets will only be shortened to 480-grainers by rhinoplasty. That makes an extremely tough, semi-soft nose FN bullet for magazine filling of .458 WM and .458 WM+ rifles.
BBMT, Ltd. will now shift operations to shortening of the 500-gr/.458-cal Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid and remaining stocks of the brass Barnes Banded Solids to produce 400-gr and 450-gr FN solids, to match preferred "soft" bullet weights.
We can also use the semi-solid 400-gr/.458-cal Barnes Buster FN as a "tweener" bullet. It is in between soft and solid and will bulge its nose into a nicely stable shape with heavy impacts.
Hail yes Sir Ron, pain petals shearing off at 2, 4, 8, and 10 o'clock, pinwheel center dogknot solid shank plowing on through! i'm going to take one of those 450gr TSX's you gave me, rum em at 2450+ fps from my 458 WM+ and smash a Cape Buffalo in Africa this fall, i'll have it filmed and send you a copy,
LOL, yes, that is funny Sir Tony, i may need to verify that math, it was off the top of my head, but still bet pretty close with Sir Ron giving us the b.c. number ; ]
I went to Alaska in March 1984 and left 7 years later.
Sir John, Our time in the Happy Hunting Ground overlapped some. Was yours military or civilian? Mine was first one and then the other. Mine was from 1985 to 1988 and 1992 to 1994, and I did 3 different 3-month work stints in Alaska after that, last one ending in April 2002. I'll be back in Heaven someday.
Originally Posted by jwp475
This is the exit in a deer of a 220 Hammer Hunter at 2911 FPS from my 35 Whelen with a 28" barrel 1885 Highwall
I went to Alaska in March 1984 and left 7 years later.
Sir John, Our time in the Happy Hunting Ground overlapped some. Was yours military or civilian? Mine was first one and then the other. Mine was from 1985 to 1988 and 1992 to 1994, and I did 3 different 3-month work stints in Alaska after that, last one ending in April 2002. I'll be back in Heaven someday.
Originally Posted by jwp475
This is the exit in a deer of a 220 Hammer Hunter at 2911 FPS from my 35 Whelen with a 28" barrel 1885 Highwall
Wow on that Hammer Hunter hole !
Mine was work related in Prudhoe Bay, Endicott and Melanie Point.
Ditto on Ross and the .340 Wby. When I first hunted Alaska in 1986 as a resident, it was with a Weatherby FiberMark .340 Wby, and a Freedom Arms .454 Casull Field Grade 7.5" with fixed sights. I had some adventures with those, feared no evil. Weatherby and McMillan were the first ever FACTORY combo for a synthetic-stocked big game rifle, Started circa 1984-1985, IIRC.
Would you be willing to travel for an exorcism if we can locate Ross ? If we fail with the religious approach, we can throw the 8-foot-square bison robe over him and threaten a blanket party if he does not repent. Better see if Sir Jerry can come along too as another spiritual inspiration with some muscle. LOL
I’m in on this trip. Ross Seyfried was a monster to my young eyes as a young man.
Anyone remember the 585 Nyatti he built? To a little kid from the hills that was mythical stuff.
Better get some of the 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammers too, before they are sold out and you have to wait for another run. You got me thinking about a bullet for my .264 Ripmoor wildcat now. The .264/.375 Ruger needs a better bullet also.
Ditto on Ross and the .340 Wby. When I first hunted Alaska in 1986 as a resident, it was with a Weatherby FiberMark .340 Wby, and a Freedom Arms .454 Casull Field Grade 7.5" with fixed sights. I had some adventures with those, feared no evil. Weatherby and McMillan were the first ever FACTORY combo for a synthetic-stocked big game rifle, Started circa 1984-1985, IIRC.
Would you be willing to travel for an exorcism if we can locate Ross ? If we fail with the religious approach, we can throw the 8-foot-square bison robe over him and threaten a blanket party if he does not repent. Better see if Sir Jerry can come along too as another spiritual inspiration with some muscle. LOL
I’m in on this trip. Ross Seyfried was a monster to my young eyes as a young man.
Anyone remember the 585 Nyatti he built? To a little kid from the hills that was mythical stuff.
Ross won a world championship in pistol Tactical shooting before writing. He was also a pioneer with the bore bore revolvers taking a Cape Buffalo 🐃 once with a 355 grain hardcast at 1495 FPS from his Seville 45 colt built by John Linebaugh. Ross wrote the first articles on the 500 and 475 Linebaughs
Witness Trees was about the old scraped up trees along the hunting trails up mountains. Seems like a simple thing but to a reader who has been there it moved me through time. Just very well written.
Better get some of the 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammers too, before they are sold out and you have to wait for another run. You got me thinking about a bullet for my .264 Ripmoor wildcat now. The .264/.375 Ruger needs a better bullet also.
Yes sir. They’re in the cart RC
What’s this Ripmoor? I probably need one…..
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by CZ550
Actually, it was Ross who got me interested in the .340 WBY. I never regretted that. And he was a very good writer.
Ditto on Ross and the .340 Wby. When I first hunted Alaska in 1986 as a resident, it was with a Weatherby FiberMark .340 Wby, and a Freedom Arms .454 Casull Field Grade 7.5" with fixed sights. I had some adventures with those, feared no evil. Weatherby and McMillan were the first ever FACTORY combo for a synthetic-stocked big game rifle, Started circa 1984-1985, IIRC.
Would you be willing to travel for an exorcism if we can locate Ross ? If we fail with the religious approach, we can throw the 8-foot-square bison robe over him and threaten a blanket party if he does not repent. Better see if Sir Jerry can come along too as another spiritual inspiration with some muscle. LOL
I’m in on this trip. Ross Seyfried was a monster to my young eyes as a young man.
Anyone remember the 585 Nyatti he built? To a little kid from the hills that was mythical stuff.
Ross won a world championship in pistol Tactical shooting before writing. He was also a pioneer with the bore bore revolvers taking a Cape Buffalo 🐃 once with a 355 grain hardcast at 1495 FPS from his Seville 45 colt built by John Linebaugh. Ross wrote the first articles on the 500 and 475 Linebaughs
His articles on the 475 are the best. You got me stuck on this danged JRH and I’m like a little kid with a brand new toy.
I will keep an eye peeled for anything "Witness Tree" or "Tree," with Norm Nixon or Ross Seyfried relationship. What was the story about ?
Yes, all Knights of the Four Five Eight must SEMPER FI on prayers for the soul of Ross Seyfried. Surely the devil made him do it. Did he have a pact with the devil that was called due when he defiantly "denied" the .458 Winchester Magnum ? A .458 Win Shaman exorcism is in order, unless our prayers work. Have buffalo robe, will travel.
Better get some of the 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammers too, before they are sold out and you have to wait for another run. You got me thinking about a bullet for my .264 Ripmoor wildcat now. The .264/.375 Ruger needs a better bullet also.
Yes sir. They’re in the cart RC
What’s this Ripmoor? I probably need one…..
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by CZ550
Actually, it was Ross who got me interested in the .340 WBY. I never regretted that. And he was a very good writer.
Ditto on Ross and the .340 Wby. When I first hunted Alaska in 1986 as a resident, it was with a Weatherby FiberMark .340 Wby, and a Freedom Arms .454 Casull Field Grade 7.5" with fixed sights. I had some adventures with those, feared no evil. Weatherby and McMillan were the first ever FACTORY combo for a synthetic-stocked big game rifle, Started circa 1984-1985, IIRC.
Would you be willing to travel for an exorcism if we can locate Ross ? If we fail with the religious approach, we can throw the 8-foot-square bison robe over him and threaten a blanket party if he does not repent. Better see if Sir Jerry can come along too as another spiritual inspiration with some muscle. LOL
I’m in on this trip. Ross Seyfried was a monster to my young eyes as a young man.
Anyone remember the 585 Nyatti he built? To a little kid from the hills that was mythical stuff.
Ross won a world championship in pistol Tactical shooting before writing. He was also a pioneer with the bore bore revolvers taking a Cape Buffalo 🐃 once with a 355 grain hardcast at 1495 FPS from his Seville 45 colt built by John Linebaugh. Ross wrote the first articles on the 500 and 475 Linebaughs
His articles on the 475 are the best. You got me stuck on this danged JRH and I’m like a little kid with a brand new toy.
I knew the article on the 475 was being written by Ross. Bowen was building me one and told me about the article and that it would be in the may issue if memory serves. I got mine in time to work up a long and I shot the first bear and moose ever shot with the 475 Linebaugh. To say that I was impressed with the performance is an understatement
Those might pair up well with the 160 Bitterroots I’ve got as well.
LOL, that'll work, and not to have Sir Ron beat me with a Buffalo rob for hijack, the 172gr Absolute Hammer can be driven at the same 3200 fps, i know, i cant leave well enough alone.
Been doing a lot of reading on Elmer Keith. Love him greatly but was disturbed to find him say that Jack Ashurst invented the .458/.375 H&H Magnum and implied that Watts did not. I cannot find anything on a .458 Ashurst, just other pretenders who came after James Watts. I might have the 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammers in hand Monday.
450 Ashurst From Unintended Consequences by John Ross.
".450 Ashurst," Kearns said immediately. "Full length .375 H&H case necked up to .458 caliber and blown out straight. Holds more powder than the .458 Winchester magnum, but only if you've got an action with a long magazine. Google produces pretty much nothing -- one thread on Cast Boolits confirming that John Ross didn't just make the name "Ashurst" up like authors sometimes do.
Jack Ashurst lived in Grangeville, Idaho, and took over Lyman McCrea's gunshop and cartridge line about 1941. He dropped the McCrea cartridge designs for his own. He had four .25 calibers, based on the .22 Savage HP, the .30-30, the .30-06 and the .275 H&H Magnum cases, and a .270, .280, 7MM and .300 cartridge series all based on the .300 H&H Magnum case. The cases featured the short necks and abrupt shoulders typical of wildcats of the period, although several of them retained the body taper of the parent cases. The usual blistering velocities were claimed for these creations. This from Wildcat Cartridges by Richard F. Simmons. I think P.O. Ackley described some Ashurst Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders. However, neither list a 6mm Ashurst.
Ross won a world championship in pistol Tactical shooting before writing. He was also a pioneer with the bore bore revolvers taking a Cape Buffalo 🐃 once with a 355 grain hardcast at 1495 FPS from his Seville 45 colt built by John Linebaugh. Ross wrote the first articles on the 500 and 475 Linebaughs
I understand Ross did win the first " World Championship " , but it began as more of a local get together of interested folks, rather than the real hotshots it attracts now. I understand Ross is a good shot with handguns and long guns but is not in the league of today's sponsored shooters. He never won it again . But his writing was good
Phil, to be fair Ross never seriously competed after winning his championship in South Africa in 1981. Look at who he competed against and you will pull in your horns or "taste the crow". It got him to Africa for the championship and that was his prime motivation.
The 1981 IPSC Handgun World Shoot V held in Johannesburg, South Africa, was the fifth IPSC Handgun World Shoot, and was won by Ross Seyfried of United States, using a relatively stock firearm compared to the highly tuned firearms of many other shooters. Well known in the U.S., Ross had previously won the 1978 U.S. National Championship, and was member of the US National Team who placed second in the previous 1979 World Shoot. The 1981 championship showed the Americans return with a vengeance when both Ross Seyfried took the individual World Title and the US National Team took gold in the team classification.
The Science of shooting has progressed rapidly in the heat of competition indeed. Doubt any old timer could just walk in and dominate today's game. However, Win the First one he did and that can't be taken away. Did it without a compensator and shooting a full sized Steel 1911. Winning back to back is a very hard thing and harder still without the advantages of technological leaps.
Better get some of the 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammers too, before they are sold out and you have to wait for another run. You got me thinking about a bullet for my .264 Ripmoor wildcat now. The .264/.375 Ruger needs a better bullet also.
Alrighty, ordered a Big handful of the .458, 400 grain Shock Hammers. The goal is to see if this will bring the mighty 458’s up to the high standards of the 416’s. - whoa, that was humor. Not intended as an insurrectionist comment. -
I shall “sheepishly” admit, these will be used not only in 458 Winchester chambers but, also 458 Lott chambers.
Thanks for that, pg. 134 of the excellent John Ross book. Read it so long ago the ".450 Ashurst" reference went "misunderestimated" by me. UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES strike again in the form of my ignorance. But it is a fictional conversation from supposedly August 12, 1961. I must read the book again.
The rest of it from your link is about all I have been able to glean too. Research continues. Elmer did a lot of great stuff, mentored Ross Seyfried, but he might have been slipping a bit on dates and facts in his later years. Research continues.
Alrighty, ordered a Big handful of the .458, 400 grain Shock Hammers. The goal is to see if this will bring the mighty 458’s up to the high standards of the 416’s. - whoa, that was humor. Not intended as an insurrectionist comment. -
I shall “sheepishly” admit, these will be used not only in 458 Winchester chambers but, also 458 Lott chambers.
Sir Larry,
Hallelujah ! There are at least three of us ordering them pronto. I won't hold the .458 Lott thing against you, weak sisters like your .458 Lott gotta have some fun too.
Lol - yep. I am anxious to receive them. This may very well be the replacement for the 400 grain TSX. I give up on those being in the marketplace. As mentioned, I am very happy to see a +.400 BC in a bullet that should give plenty of penetration on most anything on the North American continent. At a conservative muzzle velocity of 2400 fps, they should be plenty good to my maximum 225 yard shooting distances. And make an substantial impression at 100 yards and under. Looks like a big win for those of us that like the 400 grain type bullets. These may give my 416’s with the 350 grain TSX and TTSX some serious competition.
As much as I'd like to have some of those 400gr Hammers or TSX's (I've little resistance to the purchase of new bullets in .458-cal), and I've gone on record in stating that I think the best all-around hunting bullet in .458" would be something like the original 400gr X-Bullet, I'd never be content with a single bullet in .458-cal.
Due to owning several .45-70s, including a few single-shooters like #1 Rugers and NEFs, and now the .458, I've managed to collect something like 600 still on my shelves, including: 250gr Monolithics, 500gr FMJ, 480gr DGX's, and 500gr DGX's from Hornady (including several boxes of 350gr have been fired or sold); 350gr, 400gr and 500gr Speers; 450gr Swift AF's; 300gr TSX, 350gr TSX, 450gr TSX, 300gr Barnes O, 400gr Barnes SP, 330gr Barnes Banded Solids, 400gr Barnes Busters, 400gr Barnes-X, and 600gr Barnes O; 405gr Rems; 405gr WW; 400gr Hawks; and 550gr Woodleighs.
I figure if I shot 150 of those per year over the next four years, I'd be 90 and wouldn't have to sell them!
As much as I'd like to have some of those 400gr Hammers or TSX's (I've little resistance to the purchase of new bullets in .458-cal), and I've gone on record in stating that I think the best all-around hunting bullet in .458" would be something like the original 400gr X-Bullet, I'd never be content with a single bullet in .458-cal.
Due to owning several .45-70s, including a few single-shooters like #1 Rugers and NEFs, and now the .458, I've managed to collect something like 600 still on my shelves, including: 250gr Monolithics, 500gr FMJ, 480gr DGX's, and 500gr DGX's from Hornady (including several boxes of 350gr have been fired or sold); 350gr, 400gr and 500gr Speers; 450gr Swift AF's; 300gr TSX, 350gr TSX, 450gr TSX, 300gr Barnes O, 400gr Barnes SP, 330gr Barnes Banded Solids, 400gr Barnes Busters, 400gr Barnes-X, and 600gr Barnes O; 405gr Rems; 405gr WW; 400gr Hawks; and 550gr Woodleighs.
I figure if I shot 150 of those per year over the next four years, I'd be 90 and wouldn't have to sell them!
Now that's what I call a positive plan. We should all be that lucky to plan our shots until 90 year of age.......... All the very best to you and, your plan, Bob. John
As much as I'd like to have some of those 400gr Hammers or TSX's (I've little resistance to the purchase of new bullets in .458-cal), and I've gone on record in stating that I think the best all-around hunting bullet in .458" would be something like the original 400gr X-Bullet, I'd never be content with a single bullet in .458-cal.
Due to owning several .45-70s, including a few single-shooters like #1 Rugers and NEFs, and now the .458, I've managed to collect something like 600 still on my shelves, including: 250gr Monolithics, 500gr FMJ, 480gr DGX's, and 500gr DGX's from Hornady (including several boxes of 350gr have been fired or sold); 350gr, 400gr and 500gr Speers; 450gr Swift AF's; 300gr TSX, 350gr TSX, 450gr TSX, 300gr Barnes O, 400gr Barnes SP, 330gr Barnes Banded Solids, 400gr Barnes Busters, 400gr Barnes-X, and 600gr Barnes O; 405gr Rems; 405gr WW; 400gr Hawks; and 550gr Woodleighs.
I figure if I shot 150 of those per year over the next four years, I'd be 90 and wouldn't have to sell them!
I count it a privilege to learn from others here and still contribute something of my own experiences. It's been a real pleasure to read, learn and contribute without a lot of arguing and mud-slinging that too frequently happened on the "other forum". And I've also enjoyed the banter. Really, for me it's one-day-at-a-time, and that by the grace of God - to Him all credit belongs!
I count it a privilege to learn from others here and still contribute something of my own experiences. It's been a real pleasure to read, learn and contribute without a lot of arguing and mud-slinging that too frequently happened on the "other forum". And I've also enjoyed the banter. Really, for me it's one-day-at-a-time, and that by the grace of God - to Him all credit belongs!
Alrighty, ordered a Big handful of the .458, 400 grain Shock Hammers. The goal is to see if this will bring the mighty 458’s up to the high standards of the 416’s. - whoa, that was humor. Not intended as an insurrectionist comment. -
I shall “sheepishly” admit, these will be used not only in 458 Winchester chambers but, also 458 Lott chambers.
Sir Larry,
Hallelujah ! There are at least three of us ordering them pronto. I won't hold the .458 Lott thing against you, weak sisters like your .458 Lott gotta have some fun too.
The Hammer 400 grainers arrived. As to looks, dang fine looking bullet. After checking them out, I ordered more.
Your approval is appreciated, buy a donkey, and never kill the messenger unless the message is really, really bad, and he is the message.
90 % weight retention is claimed for the 402-gr Shock Hammer with shallow, 0.25"-diameter HP. The 403-gr Shock Hammer with 3mm HP about as deep as the full nose projection should be interesting, especially with that 0.419 BC G1 estimate. The PDR bands do not hurt BC. Also, residual oil on the bands: Leave it alone or degrease before loading ? Shoot both ways and see if there is any difference.
Residual cutting oil in the HP is said to enhance a visible vapor trail on videos of small-bore kills with Hammer Bullets.
Ross won a world championship in pistol Tactical shooting before writing. He was also a pioneer with the bore bore revolvers taking a Cape Buffalo 🐃 once with a 355 grain hardcast at 1495 FPS from his Seville 45 colt built by John Linebaugh. Ross wrote the first articles on the 500 and 475 Linebaughs
I understand Ross did win the first " World Championship " , but it began as more of a local get together of interested folks, rather than the real hotshots it attracts now. I understand Ross is a good shot with handguns and long guns but is not in the league of today's sponsored shooters. He never won it again . But his writing was good
Phil,
Ross won the 5th IPSC World Championship not the first (not exactly a local get together as it happened in South Africa) and was the last guy to win with an uncompensated pistol and with a 45 ACP.
Compensated 38 Supers carried more bullets and recoiled significantly less.
To down play winning a World Championship by saying he never did twice is a bit weird.
Robby Leatham, Brian Enos, or Mike Voight had nothing but respect for his shooting ability in a highly competative shooting sport.
I have seen Ross pull more than a few triggers and I have shot with the best "of today's sponsored shooters" (Dan Horner, Jerry Miculek, Kyle Lamb, The Army Marksmanship Unit) and know Ross was quite a bit better than a "good shot".
Sorry but I feel someone needed to set the record straight.
Sir Ron, as usual you are way ahead of me. The chi-com Lyman caliper and probably chi-com Hornady bullet comparator that I used for measuring.
I measured:
Overall bullet length Hammer at 1.441” 450 grain TSX at 1.516”
Base of bullet to ogive: Hammer .799 450 grain TSX .789
Sir Larry, Buy a donkey for the info, but are you off by about 0.100" over-shoot on that distance from base to ogive on the Shock Hammer 3 mm HP "400"-grainer ? I used a cheap digital/electronic scale for the weights. But my caliper did agree with the 1.44" Steve Davis quoted. No more than +/- 0.001" on length is good. Remember, measure twice, crimp once. From where I like to crimp, middle of first PDR trough/groove to base would be 0.660". Maybe you meant 0.699" instead of 0.799" from base to ogive ?
I hope JohnBurns can get in touch with Ross and tell him we are praying for his soul. As for Phil, well, I think we all need to chip in and buy him a Trump Glock for his next 9mm brown bear kill in defense of his fishing clients.
A Ross Seyfried commemorative Colt 1911 .45 ACP would be neat.
.799 is what I continue to measure with the 12-45 insert. Which is supposedly for .458. Maybe it is a generic .45 ??
I see these inserts are “comparator”. Which may be just that and not precise actual diameter to length measurements. I did not care for their .308/ 7.62 / 8mm insert. So I ordered a Sinclair stainless 8mm insert. I get significantly different length readings between the two. Apparently “specific point” does not mean the actual diameter point.
Lock-N-Load® Bullet Comparator Inserts Item #117 Bullet Comparator Inserts are designed for use with the Lock-N-Load® Bullet Comparator; it eliminates variables when measuring the over-all length of a bullet. Bullet length can vary a few thousandths due to material variation and tip finish.
The Lock-N-Load® Bullet Comparator Inserts allow the reloader to measure the bullet from the base to a specific point on the ogive, which has little variation, if any. This versatile system also provides the reloader with a much more consistent way to monitor the overall length of their reloads, allowing the reloader to build more precision into their handloads, that translates into better groups at the range and more meat in the freezer.
I concur with your in depth forensic analysis regarding the light machine oil on the outside and in nose cavity. Although light enough that it was not leaving a noticeable sign that I could detect when rotated in a paper towel. But, after doing this to several, I think I could sense a difference via the fingers, between then paper toweled and the fresh from the box. Nose cavity oil was found by rolling a corner of the paper up small and tightly, and feeding into the lengthy hollow point and rotating. Maybe 3/32” of the tip showed discoloration.
I assume all their bullets arrive as such. But, I have only heard very good accuracy. So likely not problematic as to accuracy ? Perhaps trace amounts of crisco at the most immediate point of impact expansion on critter ? Not sure if sanitation is necessary. Perhaps soak in Dawn dishwashing water ?? Or just send them.
I hope JohnBurns can get in touch with Ross and tell him we are praying for his soul. As for Phil, well, I think we all need to chip in and buy him a Trump Glock for his next 9mm brown bear kill in defense of his fishing clients.
A Ross Seyfried commemorative Colt 1911 .45 ACP would be neat.
[/quote] I would think Ross would love this thread and hope he shows up! A picture of his old Pachmayr 45 would be great as well. I remember a line from his writings about same that went something like "I never worried about the guys showing up with brand new guns, holsters or other gear. I worried about the guy who just spent $10,000 on Primers." Primers then were maybe $10 per thousand? As you can tell, that one stuck with me. Also Ross shooting style/position was very unique. He had the old Pachmayr pulled in close to his face, maybe 18 inches. It was a radical modification of the Weaver stance. It certainly worked for him. I tried it, liked it and shot a lot of 45 ball that way for a few years. It was very fast on target and between targets. You had to have wrists and forearms of steel to make it work and in my 20's I did. Once in a while when shooting fast multiples and wanting to whup a youngster, I still pull the old 45 back a bit and get in a hurry. I can only do it for little while nowadays.
Phil could kill three brown bears in defense of his fishing clients with a 15 round Glock. It would certainly Trump his Lady Smith's 6-7 he was carrying would it not?
I hope JohnBurns can get in touch with Ross and tell him we are praying for his soul. As for Phil, well, I think we all need to chip in and buy him a Trump Glock for his next 9mm brown bear kill in defense of his fishing clients.
A Ross Seyfried commemorative Colt 1911 .45 ACP would be neat.
I would think Ross would love this thread and hope he shows up! A picture of his old Pachmayr 45 would be great as well. I remember a line from his writings about same that went something like "I never worried about the guys showing up with brand new guns, holsters or other gear. I worried about the guy who just spent $10,000 on Primers." Primers then were maybe $10 per thousand? As you can tell, that one stuck with me. Also Ross shooting style/position was very unique. He had the old Pachmayr pulled in close to his face, maybe 18 inches. It was a radical modification of the Weaver stance. It certainly worked for him. I tried it, liked it and shot a lot of 45 ball that way for a few years. It was very fast on target and between targets. You had to have wrists and forearms of steel to make it work and in my 20's I did. Once in a while when shooting fast multiples and wanting to whup a youngster, I still pull the old 45 back a bit and get in a hurry. I can only do it for little while nowadays.
Phil could kill three brown bears in defense of his fishing clients with a 15 round Glock. It would certainly Trump his Lady Smith's 6-7 he was carrying would it not?
I [/quote]
Or Phil could go to a Sig P365XL with a 15 round magazine
I'm shooting the 220 HH in my 35 Whelen no oil of any kind was detected on them
I would not have noticed any on these, if not for Riflecrank’s comment. It took a thorough and in-depth forensic investigation to confirm residual trace evidence.
I just got off the phone with Eric from Hammer Bullets. He called to see if I wanted bulk packaging or individual boxes for this second order. Anyways, this discussion lead into a 400 grain.458 bullet discussion. He is definitely interested in any feed back on these bullets. On game performance and chronograph load performance. He said good or bad experiences. Honest feedback to see if anything needed to be improved. I will say their customer service and shipping is refreshingly top notch.
He also added, he was shipping some to Australia to be tested on Buffalo. Is the recipient among us ?? I am most interested in how these perform on those big beasts.
Good work. Good to hear the 400-gr Shock Hammers are going to Oz for bovines. I will surely be using them on anything and everything. One planet, one bullet.
Thanks for your fancy measurement from base to start of ogive. I would say you are within +/- 0.001" on that too. I had not even thought to try measuring that. I have no gadgets to get a good measure, just eyeball, caliper, and slug&rod methods with dummies into the lands. Hardly a worry with the .458 WinMag.
Shipping the bullets with remnant cutting oil on them is a relatively new thing at Hammer Bullets. The first bullets I got from them for .458WinMag, .44-40, and 9mm (thinking brown bear pocket pistol with that last one) had no oil on them. They seem to be a different color, more orange but still shiny. The oil coating on the new bullets is good for shipping and storage, will prevent the color change. This is not to say that the old orange ones are tarnished. Just that the new oil-coated ones probably still have the same color as just off the machines. I will degrease them before loading, by the batch.
The major diameter of the PDR bands is .458" at the summits, and about 0.448" in the valleys, approximately. They will have a nice, low start pressure without needing oil to grease the skids and lower velocity and pressure, as Sir John said. The .458 WinMag is not one of those over-bore, high-pressure, tight-throated rat calibers that might benefit from oiled bullets.
Length of ogive ahead of full bearing diameter is 1.440" - 0.799" = 0.641". Being well below half the BOL for that measure bodes well for accuracy, me thinks.
That full-bearing segment ahead of the first PDR trough will make a good grabber to start the bullet spinning at the end of the long-leade-only throat. Pressure and fouling relief by PDR bands. Seems to be the better mousetrap has been designed again by Hammer Bullets.
I am still not sold on the Hornady comparator insert. As to its actual diameter. It is definitely a constant point to measure from, and to compare different bullet lengths. As with the comparison of the 450 grain TSX to the Hammer 400(sounds like a Mopar motor). I will see if I can order a Sinclair stainless.458 insert. The stainless also is not grabbing / sticky like the aluminum.
The box that I opened, I would never noticed the machine oil if you had not mentioned it. I literally had to search for signs of it. But, it is there.
I think the Aussie Buffalo will be a true test of the bullet performance. I have seriously high hopes for its performance.
Steve at Hammer Bullets said the oil will not cause any problems so do not concern your self. I will be going on my first safari with the Hammer boys in April so we will be talking a lot about 458 bullets and later this year I will be working with the 400 and 450 loads, to cold now, the other day Brian told e there was a guy up in Alaska going to be testing on a brown bear so will be interesting to see what happens.next year I will go back and tackle a cape buffalo with Hammers. the trip we are taking in April will only be shot with Hammers for plains game. good shooting
I hope JohnBurns can get in touch with Ross and tell him we are praying for his soul. As for Phil, well, I think we all need to chip in and buy him a Trump Glock for his next 9mm brown bear kill in defense of his fishing clients.
A Ross Seyfried commemorative Colt 1911 .45 ACP would be neat.
I would think Ross would love this thread and hope he shows up! A picture of his old Pachmayr 45 would be great as well. I remember a line from his writings about same that went something like "I never worried about the guys showing up with brand new guns, holsters or other gear. I worried about the guy who just spent $10,000 on Primers." Primers then were maybe $10 per thousand? As you can tell, that one stuck with me. Also Ross shooting style/position was very unique. He had the old Pachmayr pulled in close to his face, maybe 18 inches. It was a radical modification of the Weaver stance. It certainly worked for him. I tried it, liked it and shot a lot of 45 ball that way for a few years. It was very fast on target and between targets. You had to have wrists and forearms of steel to make it work and in my 20's I did. Once in a while when shooting fast multiples and wanting to whup a youngster, I still pull the old 45 back a bit and get in a hurry. I can only do it for little while nowadays.
Phil could kill three brown bears in defense of his fishing clients with a 15 round Glock. It would certainly Trump his Lady Smith's 6-7 he was carrying would it not?
I
Or Phil could go to a Sig P365XL with a 15 round magazine
[/quote]
As much as I do love my old S&W 39's, the Sig 320 and 365 are my favorite 9mm handguns
So, build a better bullet and they will come, like "Field of Dreams." No need to thank me folks, I just gave them the idea based on the appearance of their 270-gr/.375-cal "Dangerous Game" Shock Hammer, scaled up to .458-caliber and about 400-grains, with a 3mm hollow point, which they had found reliable, and I bought a quantity sufficient to get them interested. Keep buying, guys, keep the bullet alive, please. Is everybody getting about 403.1 grains +/- 0.3 grains for the actual weight ? That is after you shake or blow the oil out of hollow points, of course.
The Hammer Bullets are an improvement on the GSC HV and Barnes TSX .458/400-gr bullets specifically and in all offerings in general.
I like the fact that the Hammer bullets are shipped in oil, a preservative to prevent tarnishing in storage. But I'll be damned if I am not going to at least shake the oil out of the hollow points and wipe the bullets with a paper towel before I load them into the brass case atop some powder.
I think Hammer Bullets will probably be making more than just that first run of the 3mm HP 400-grainer/.458-cal.
And furthermore, "The Walking Dead" reminds me of "The Walking Democrat Voters."
Sir Larry, This Indian persevered with the endeavor, despite the ankle biting, and succeeded. Now we must let them think it was all their idea. They have sent some of the bullets to South Africa as well as Australia.
I weighed the bullets as they came out of another box I opened, 25 bullets, some with oil filling the hollow point to within a few millimeters of the meplat some with no visible oil at all. Yes, highly variable oiling of bullet hollowpoints. 24 of the 25 were in the range of 402.9 grains to 404.0 grains, with oil. 1 bullet was an outlier: 400.2 grains
There was no discernible difference in the one aberrant bullet that I could measure. There was no oil in the hollow point. I would have to guess it was some sort of metallurgical flaw causing the one light bullet. I sprayed the one wild bullet with Gun Blaster degreaser/cleaner. Weight was unchanged, stayed 400.2 grains.
By grasping one of the oil-filled bullets by its base and slinging or flicking the hollowpoint at my thigh as I sit, it leaves a fine-line trail of oil several cm long across the fabric on my thigh. Black sweatpants show the slung oil as a dark line on the fabric Re-weighing before and after flicking bullets shows that they can come with up to 0.6 grains of oil in the hollow point.
Above weights on same cheap digital/electronic scale by me. I am going to have to break out my magnetic damping mechanical scale and weigh another box of 25. Watching for anymore outliers, of course.
The first sample of 10 bullets weighed, after being flicked and wiped of oil, averaged 403.1 grains +/- 0.3 grains, with no outliers in that sample !
Okay, after calibrating scale to 400 grain test weights. I re-weighed the original 2, and 3 others.
400.6 400.7 400.7 401.3 403.1
FWIW Gentlemen, from an accuracy/hunting standpoint, i was able to fire a 5 shot 10 inch group at 1100 yards with my 50-90 Sharps rifle with Hoke tang sight and Distant Thunder front sight, those 720 grain paper patch bullets from that casting session ran the needle on my RCBS 10-10 scale to + or - 1 grain, so two grains max difference total bullet weight still allowed me to easily hit the vitals on a bull elk, moose or buffalo at that extended range, i shot prone with bag under barrel and rifle against shoulder, perfect conditions, no wind and overcast skies.
Guys like Ranch13, Kurt71, Kenny Wasserburger and maybe even Saint Bagwell match shooting may not allow +/- 1 grain bullet weights to pass a casting session inspection, particularity in the 500/560gr weight class of bullets i wont allow it in 40 and 45 cal bullets, but plenty good enough in the Big 50 banging around on farm steel, i haven't and wont weigh the 450gr TSX's Sir Ron gave me, for 300 yard max hunting range it simply wont matter.
Absolutely agree. It for sure will have Zero effect on my intended “long range” of 250 yards.
I have not been curious enough to weigh my 350 grain TSX 416’s. I would think there would be more variations than the Hammers. But, they group impressively at 100 meters out of 3 different rifles and several various boxes and lot numbers.
Lol, I almost weighed some 458, 450 TSX. Because I had an open box of them by the scales. But, was not that curious.
Sir Metford pioneered the 1000-yard muzzleloader, and in the 1860s his rifle was the best available at 2000 yards too.
From page 49 of this thread:
A quote from William Ellis Metford is also included:
"I recommend weighing powder to a quarter of a grain. I find from careful experimentation that at 1,000 yards, 95 grains will throw the bullet nearly 4.5 minutes of angle higher than 90 grains and about 2.25 minutes of angle at 500 yards. This will equal 9 inches per grain at 1000 yards, and 2.25 inches at 500 yards. No flask will with any certainty throw its charges nearer than 1.5 grains. Many first-rate shots have thought they could throw charges to much less, but in every case where I have tested this belief I have found a variation of at least 1.5 grains before 12 charges were given."
However, William Ellis Metford only obsessed and compulsed when it mattered:
"The bullets supplied for my rifle are all weighed, and in any given box are within five grains of each other as the limit of difference. I find this is amply correct enough. Unlike the powder item, there happens to be, for moderate differences in weight of bullets, a compensating action, which exhibits itself especially at the long ranges."
His bullets were usually no more than 570 grains in the .45-ish bores. 5 grains is about 0.88% of a 570-grain weight. Sir Metford tolerated +/- 0.88% variation in bullet weight for 1000-yard shooting. This translates to +/- 3.52 grains in a 400-gr bullet, yes, overkill for 300-yard accuracy.
I surely weighed some TSX bullets in the past, will do it again if I can't find the old notecards, when I weigh another box of the Hammer Shocks.
I have decided. Leaving oil on the monometal copper bullets is a dumbadze thing to do with a serious rifle. That means one is not the sharpest tool in the toolbox if one does that. Just for starters, it messes with the friction grip of the case neck on the bullet. Any more bullets with oil that I weigh will be cleaned first. Hammer has mentioned an ultrasonic bath they use, hit or miss depending on which way the wind is blowing? I have a little Lyman-made parts cleaner thingy ...
Inspired by Sirs Larry and Jerry, I have recycled and old blurb by adding a 10-bullet sample weighing for each TSX. 450-gr TSX from the same lot that Sir Jerry's Huntin'Bullets comes from and 500-gr TSX of the longer variety:
10 bullets is a small sample, as I found with the Hammers, a sample of 50 is more telling.
Now the great break through, OIL-FREE SHOCK HAMMERS:
Weights measured with a brand new mechanical balance beam scale agreed well with the digital/electronic scale. For example, two bullets that weighed exactly 400.0 gr each on the electronic scale weighed 399.9 gr for one and 400.1 g for the other on the balance beam. Same two-bullet average for the two scales: 400 grains. Those were the lightest two of the "400-gr" Shock Hammers encountered in 50 bullets. Both came from the second 25-count box of bullets.
The balance beam is more laborious but the digital is close enough for sorting "light" bullets from "right" bullets, in a bi-modal distribution.
Sir Larry, Poking around looking for the Lyman ultrasonic cleaner (which I did not find) I found a Hornady LOCK-N-LOAD comparator set that I never opened the package on. Will have to learn how to use that.
Comment at the Hammer site, by me, stirring the pot:
I think it should be renamed the "403." Don't change a thing except figure out why about 10% of the bullets cluster tightly near 400 grains, and about 90% cluster tightly around 403 grains.
Of course, inside of 300 yards huntin'ranges whether 400 grains or 403 grains, no bullet sorting is required. Just sort out the dead meat.
But beyond 1000 yards at the target matches, sorting bullets might not hurt.
Those Barnes are very consistent weight wise. I am somewhat surprised. The Dawn is definitely a good non-industrial oil remover. I received the 2nd shipment of the 400’s today / late this evening.
Jwp475, Do you know the composition of Michaels Media?
Being inexpert at testing bullets in Media, our bullet testing team used a suspended 5/8 inch steel plate at 50 yards to test our .458 Elephant bullets to be sure they would penetrate into the brain on frontal brain shots and terminate the encounter in a rapid and final manner.(DRT). The bullets were fired at about 2,000 FPS MV and the only ones that shot through the plate were the 430 grain Brass Punch bullet and the 450 grain copper North Fork FPS bullet and both shot through leaving a daylight hole. Encouraged by this, our shooter in Africa reported one shot kills from 20 yards with no exceptions. Naturally, these bullets shot through all other DG game too, taking the fight out of several Cape Buff with one shot with no muzzle velocities over 2150 fps.
I suspect Michael will think our media somewhat crude, but we did find it to be practical and effective.
As I discovered at the B&M Forum, Sir Larry and Sir John are working on getting Michael McCourry at the McCourry Institute of Ballistics in South Carolina to test the 400-g/.458-cal/3mm-HP Shock Hammer for penetration in artificial media. With the vast amount of testing previously done by Doc M at MIB for comparison, that will be useful information.
Buy a donkey to those MEN OF THE SQUARE TABLE. That was mighty Knight of them.
Sir Charles,
The MIB test media of the past has been a form of wetpack, news print and magazines and such, sometimes with concrete blocks or bones and whatever thrown in, 50-yard indoor laboratory with instruments capable of pressure testing, etc. Will get updated.
Absolutely agree. It for sure will have Zero effect on my intended “long range” of 250 yards.
I have not been curious enough to weigh my 350 grain TSX 416’s. I would think there would be more variations than the Hammers. But, they group impressively at 100 meters out of 3 different rifles and several various boxes and lot numbers.
Lol, I almost weighed some 458, 450 TSX. Because I had an open box of them by the scales. But, was not that curious.
You bet ldmay375.
Sir Ron, many thanks for the Metford lesson, good stuff Sir, and yessir, i do weigh my Sharps rifle black powder charges, as in weighing big bore smokeless rifle bullets for 250-300 yard max hunting ranges, i do not weigh black powder charges for my original '86's in 40-65 or 45-70, they're max 125 yard hunting rifles.
As I discovered at the B&M Forum, Sir Larry and Sir John are working on getting Michael McCourry at the McCourry Institute of Ballistics in South Carolina to test the 400-g/.458-cal/3mm-HP Shock Hammer for penetration in artificial media. With the vast amount of testing previously done by Doc M at MIB for comparison, that will be useful information.
Buy a donkey to those MEN OF THE SQUARE TABLE. That was mighty Knight of them.
Sir Charles,
The MIB test media of the past has been a form of wetpack, news print and magazines and such, sometimes with concrete blocks or bones and whatever thrown in, 50-yard indoor laboratory with instruments capable of pressure testing, etc. Will get updated.
Going by the results that I got with the 220 grain Power Hammer Hunter (PHH) on 3 deer and 1 hog out of my 35 Whelen I'd wager that Sir Ron's creation (400 grain Hammer) will prove to be the best all around 458 bullet in existence
Sir John, The new Shock Hammer: BEST ALL AROUND Yes. May not be the best for a specific ballistic performance item like deepest penetration on blue whales but it will come closest to being best "all around."
Sir John, The new Shock Hammer: BEST ALL AROUND Yes. May not be the best for a specific ballistic performance item like deepest penetration on blue whales but it will come closest to being best "all around."
If it works like other Hammer bullet it will be fantastic. I noticed in ballistics gel the petals penetrates as deep as the shank. Deeper than most bullets with larger wound channels
If anyone wants to see it the 400 grain Hammer 400 will pass our ele brain shot test. send me a couple of spare bullets and I will test them when the sleet and snow ceases. I will report confidentially if they splatter on the steel plate. Some copper bullets from my .405 WCF have done just that, making little flat pieces suitable for hand made bracelets.
If anyone wants to see it the 400 grain Hammer 400 will pass our ele brain shot test. send me a couple of spare bullets and I will test them when the sleet and snow ceases. I will report confidentially if they splatter on the steel plate. Some copper bullets from my .405 WCF have done just that, making little flat pieces suitable for hand made bracelets.
Sir John, The new Shock Hammer: BEST ALL AROUND Yes. May not be the best for a specific ballistic performance item like deepest penetration on blue whales but it will come closest to being best "all around."
I am most anxious to see how they do on the penetration aspect. On the low end, if they penetrate as well as conventional premium 400 grainers, I can live with that. Of course, More is certainly welcome. The BC of these is what really caught my eye and interest. If the penetration is similar to a Barnes .416, 350 grain TSX, I will be Very happy.
80 grains of AA-2230 is my favorite for a COL around 3.4" with 400-gr bullets, whether GSC HV or Woodleigh PPSN. Normal practices: Start at 72.0 gr, work up to 80.0 grains for SAAMI standard loads with 400-grainer. AA-2460 will also do about same at same charges. H322 at slightly lower charges. H4895 at higher charge weights with compression.
All those powders are temperature insensitive and good choices for 400-grainers, AA-2230 is top pick for me.
80 grains of AA-2230 is my favorite for a COL around 3.4" with 400-gr bullets, whether GSC HV or Woodleigh PPSN. Normal practices: Start at 72.0 gr, work up to 80.0 grains for SAAMI standard loads with 400-grainer. AA-2460 will also do about same at same charges. H322 at slightly lower charges. H4895 at higher charge weights with compression.
All those powders are temperature insensitive and good choices for 400-grainers, AA-2230 is top pick for me.
Thank you ! I had just picked up 8lbs of the 2230. I was hoping that it would be suitable.
Edit: Should be no problem with that COAL in my 458 Winchester.
Guessing the 2230 will work on the 458 Lott also. I have to show it some compassion also.
Gotta be in the raw material. 9 to 1 ratio of 2 different alloys in the rods. QA would mean detecting a 0.75% difference in rod weights, assuming no mixing of the alloys within the same rod.
Yup, bullets are identical within 0.00005" of linear dimensions on checking by Hammer Bullets. Has to be some weight variation within the density/sp.gr. of the alloy.
It has to be some fixed discontinuity like between two different rods made of two different alloys. It is that clear. 400-grainer versus 403-grainer. Bi-modal, not a normal bell-shaped curve.
Great work as always Sir Ron of Ol Kentucky. I won't be much help to the 400 Hammer cause other than to say I do believe you are on the right track to get to where you designed you wanted to to. That will be as close to "One bullet for all" as one bullet can be. Of course this "One bullet" is being launched by the One True 458 WM the Magnificent which makes any bullet just a little bit better. Side thought as a question; How does bullet against Steel tests show us how bullet on Elephant heads work? I have never thought steel showed us much about bullets except how that bullet works on that steel so eager to learn.
Great work as always Sir Ron of Ol Kentucky. I won't be much help to the 400 Hammer cause other than to say I do believe you are on the right track to get to where you designed you wanted to to. That will be as close to "One bullet for all" as one bullet can be. Of course this "One bullet" is being launched by the One True 458 WM the Magnificent which makes any bullet just a little bit better. Side thought as a question; How does bullet against Steel tests show us how bullet on Elephant heads work? I have never thought steel showed us much about bullets except how that bullet works on that steel so eager to learn.
To penetrate steel speed is the most important aspect. Not bullet construction but speed. Yes bullet construction matters but with enough speed Varmint bullets will penetrate 1/2" A-36 steel plate
JWP475, That has been my experience as well, thus the question. Steel doesn't seem to give us much information about the matter at hand but always willing to listen and learn.
2. .458 Lott Among dangerous game cartridges, John Rigby’s .450 Nitro Express set the benchmark at the end of the 19th century, with a ballistic formula that has relied upon since its release. The .450 NE used a 480-grain bullet of .458-inch-diameter at a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps for just under 5,000 ft.-lbs. of muzzle energy; the American equivalent was the .458 Winchester Magnum, which—on paper—pushed a 510-grain bullet to 2150 fps, but didn’t quite get there at first. A short case and compressed powder loads made for some issues early on, and hunters sought a means to rectify the problem. Jack Lott saw a quick fix: instead of the 2.500-inch belted case Winchester used, he’d employ the full-length 2.85-inch case—same as the .375 H&H upon which it was based—to give room for additional powder capacity. Though the .458 Win. Mag. is a much better cartridge today than it was upon its release, I still prefer the .458 Lott design, as it will give a light bump in muzzle velocity without crushing the shoulder, and for the handloader it will be a piece of cake to achieve 2150 or 2200 fps with the big 500-grain slugs. If you’re a fan of the .458-inch-diameter cartridges, the .458 Lott is a great choice.
2. .458 Lott Among dangerous game cartridges, John Rigby’s .450 Nitro Express set the benchmark at the end of the 19th century, with a ballistic formula that has relied upon since its release. The .450 NE used a 480-grain bullet of .458-inch-diameter at a muzzle velocity of 2150 fps for just under 5,000 ft.-lbs. of muzzle energy; the American equivalent was the .458 Winchester Magnum, which—on paper—pushed a 510-grain bullet to 2150 fps, but didn’t quite get there at first. A short case and compressed powder loads made for some issues early on, and hunters sought a means to rectify the problem. Jack Lott saw a quick fix: instead of the 2.500-inch belted case Winchester used, he’d employ the full-length 2.85-inch case—same as the .375 H&H upon which it was based—to give room for additional powder capacity. Though the .458 Win. Mag. is a much better cartridge today than it was upon its release, I still prefer the .458 Lott design, as it will give a light bump in muzzle velocity without crushing the shoulder, and for the handloader it will be a piece of cake to achieve 2150 or 2200 fps with the big 500-grain slugs. If you’re a fan of the .458-inch-diameter cartridges, the .458 Lott is a great choice.
Ya, those damn 458 lott shoulders have confounded thousands of hand loaders millions of times! fillup massengill is an uninformed douche!
I read & re-read that post a few times. Isn’t he referring to the shooter’s shoulder ? As in slight velocity increase without kicking the shat out of your shoulder ? At first reading it, I thought case shoulder. That was a head scratcher. I am assuming he was referring to off the shelf factory ammo.
I read & re-read that post a few times. Isn’t he referring to the shooter’s shoulder ? As in slight velocity increase without kicking the shat out of your shoulder ? At first reading it, I thought case shoulder. That was a head scratcher. I am assuming he was referring to off the shelf factory ammo.
Lord i hope so, but mentioning compressed powder in the 458 WM had me thinking otherwise, gun writers are usually much more plain and don't leave open ended statements, my douche label still sticks, i'm sure Sir Ron will be along shortly to show him the error of his ways and set him straight ; ]
I read & re-read that post a few times. Isn’t he referring to the shooter’s shoulder ? As in slight velocity increase without kicking the shat out of your shoulder ? At first reading it, I thought case shoulder. That was a head scratcher. I am assuming he was referring to off the shelf factory ammo.
Lord i hope so, but mentioning compressed powder in the 458 WM had me thinking otherwise, gun writers are usually much more plain and don't leave open ended statements, my douche label still sticks, i'm sure Sir Ron will be along shortly to show him the error of his ways and set him straight ; ]
Been shooting compressed loads without issues for decades
I am sure the Author meant felt recoil. That is something people say when they don't have a provable point. Just misdirection for the lazy and uninclined to do their research and thinking for themselves. I get the burden of writing for the masses but I am always inclined towards the Truth and letting the willing hear.
Most brilliant comment on that February 1, 2022 DGR cartridge ranking:
" fillup massengill is an uninformed douche! "
Nothing left for me to say to top that. The Lottites are the ones beating their dead horse. And that Lottite can't even keep his brass length correct. Most likely he is a Democrat like the saboteurs at the Winchester ammo factory of yore.
Agree about the steel penetration being a useful test NOT for the "400-gr"/.458 Shock Hammer.
Hammer Bullets is now faced with a systemic problem that could affect all their bullets. Whomever is supplying the copper rods being used has some spectrographic analysis to do. That is reportedly the only way to get to the bottom of it. 400-gr samples and 403-gr samples need to be analyzed for the metallurgical variation. With +/- 0.00005" tolerance on the diameters and similar on the length measures of bullets, what else is left ?
For now, I have fewer 400-grain varmint bullets than 403-grain big game bullets. Not a bad problem for me, I can sort the bullets before sorting the dead meat. Troubling for the copper rod supply.
To be fair on the Barnes TSX bullets, might need to measure 50 each of those too, instead of just 10 each. Those bullets come from huge rolls of copper wire, and that wire must be pretty consistent. And the hammer forging and Dremel-tooling of the bullets ain't bad either.
I read & re-read that post a few times. Isn’t he referring to the shooter’s shoulder ? As in slight velocity increase without kicking the shat out of your shoulder ? At first reading it, I thought case shoulder. That was a head scratcher. I am assuming he was referring to off the shelf factory ammo.
Lord i hope so, but mentioning compressed powder in the 458 WM had me thinking otherwise, gun writers are usually much more plain and don't leave open ended statements, my douche label still sticks, i'm sure Sir Ron will be along shortly to show him the error of his ways and set him straight ; ]
Been shooting compressed loads without issues for decades
You bet, me too Big Buddy, but ms spring rains scented massengill vag wash is beating a 55 year old dead horse with the powders of the day compression deal in the 458 WM.
You crack me up Gunner. I’m laughing my butt off here!
LOL, it's really all in good fun big B, just like my old buddy with a Ruger #1 458 Lott, i told him if he wanted to shoot my 458 WM+ load with the 500gr Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer solid at 2358 fps stop by the feed store and bring out a 3 foot piece of 7/16ths all thread so we can beat the 458 WM+ case back outta his rifle with a 3lb shop sledge......................yo crazy muh-fugga!!!!!, he hasn't shown up yet.
Buy a donkey for the levity. You need an agent to get you some standup comedy bookings, maybe a 10-program contract with Netflix. Dave Chappelle had a nice gig there. We need someone to step up for another round.
Wife liked that homemade apple butter best of all. Need recipe for that and the King Arthur Sour Dough. That would make some great lady fingers for the next meeting of The Square Table.
And regarding the Shock Hammer bullet, Steve Davis said they have a handle on it. Problem affects only the largest size bar stock they use. So I got two new bullets. A 400-grainer and a 403-grainer with 3mm hollow point.
If the 400-gr BC is 0.419, then the 403-gr BC is 0.422 G1. Always look on the bright side.
Yes, I'd read that online and almost responded. But the real point of it all is that the "Truth" is still compromised by articles like that!
So WE must continue telling the "Truth" wherever and whenever we can! That's why I tell it often in my blogs as well as in person to any who will listen! Somehow this needs to be told in some of the more popular hunting/shooting mags. That should be our next push to get Sir Ron to do a write-up for one or more of them.
I'd like to Book Sir Jerry, for a Comedy hour! As his Agent, I'll donate all proceeds to the Knights of the Square Table, to Help Promote Sir Ron's Write ups! Here Here for the Push!
All the source data work is done. Maybe Mule Deer could be helpful in getting placement for Ron as well as some suggestions on length tricks of the trade stuff.
We at the 458wm table have learned to recognize the terms used as a knife against the 458wm. One of those is “compressed loads.” Not only are compressed loads not a problem but the Mighty 458wm does not and did not need loads compressed to reach 2150 with a 500 grain bullet. Simply not true. We stand united against “simply not true,” Best regards
All Y'all Knights: I will probably have to self publish. Trying to decide on whether 200 pages or 800 pages will be needed. Some original artwork will be required also, like cartoons of Lottites and realistic paintings related to the .458 Winchester Magnum. Need a little bit more load data with the 400-gr Shock Hammer.
What I am being told over at the Hammer Bullets site, is that they will replace my 400-grainers with the 403-grainers. Steve Davis said the light bullet comes from the off-spec copper bar stock. And I said:
I shall weigh all my bullets ! Find enough 400-grainers and 403-grainers for a shoot-off out to 600 yards. Might take that to "shoot the diff." Being very familiar with the .458 WinMag handloading in my rifles, I will make it simple. MY starting load is 80.0 grains of AA-2230 with the 3mm HP Shock Hammer at 3.38" COL. That is a load that any factory .458 WinMag can handle, even if it exceeds SAAMI COL by 0.040" !
Western Powders data in a 24"-barreled (1:14" twist) .458 WinMag: Barnes Old Original SSSP (0.049" jacket) Win case F-215 primer COL 3.140" 80.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2457 fps <<< 53,690 psi 80.0 grains AA-2460 >>> 2452 fps <<< 52,746 psi
I expect velocity about +2500 fps in my 25" (1:14" twist) Shilen barrel. The fancy stuff with COL 3.48" and 3.58" and higher velocity will wait until later.
I am loading ammo tonight and ice and snow are easing up here now. To the outdoor range with the Shock Hammers soon.
Sir Michael (aka "Doc M" Man of Science) is the latest Knight of The Square Table. Sir Larry has sent him some Shock Hammers. What with his indoor range/laboratory at McCourry Institute of Ballistics (MIB) in South Carolina, he may be the first to shoot the bullet, into his test media.
I am back to recommending the CEB 450-gr Safari Solid (brass FN, with flat base and BBW#13 nose profile with 67% meplat) as a magazine-filling backup to the 400-gr Shock Hammer loaded however you like in any standard .458 WinMag or .458 WM+:
A load that is tops in any factory .458 WinMag:
CEB Safari Solid 450-gr (BOL = 1.415") Hornady case 2.490" trim to COL 3.360″ (front two bands crimped ahead of case mouth, bottom two bands seated inside case) Seat depth = 0.545" F-215 primer 77.0 grains AA-2230 (minimal compression, locks bullet in place) at 55 degrees F in a 24-7/8" CZ take-off barrel installed on a Pre-’64 M70 .30-06 action (25" factory barrel set back 1/8" and re-threaded to smaller threads of M70):
5-shot average of 5-yard chrono: 2343 fps with std. dev. of 4 fps That is +2350 fps MV. 3-shots into 0.53 MOA (0.278" on centers for 3 shots at 50 yards)
Yep, that is my solid load to back up the 400-gr Shock Hammer, until there is a proper 400-gr FN solid available. That Woodleigh HYDRO sure would be nice, out of what has been available in past. Maybe they will make it available here again someday. Any word on Woodleigh Bullets ? "Sumbuddy who know ?"
Sir Ron, Looking forward with eager anticipation of the MIB laboratory testing results of the Hammer 400’s.
I think for solids, I am going to try the 380 grain Lehigh copper flats. These were originally bought for 45-70 use. I am guessing they should be plenty good for anything in Alaska at about any angle when fired from a 458 Winchester also. I have never given much thought to the solids’ use except for the 45-70. But, I will have a few to play around with it 458.
I do like the idea of the North Fork Cup Point expanding solids for closer ranges. If the Hammer 400’s / 403’s pan out, it is most likely going to be the one and done bullet for me.
All Y'all Knights: I will probably have to self publish. Trying to decide on whether 200 pages or 800 pages will be needed. Some original artwork will be required also, like cartoons of Lottites and realistic paintings related to the .458 Winchester Magnum. Need a little bit more load data with the 400-gr Shock Hammer.
What I am being told over at the Hammer Bullets site, is that they will replace my 400-grainers with the 403-grainers. Steve Davis said the light bullet comes from the off-spec copper bar stock. And I said:
I shall weigh all my bullets ! Find enough 400-grainers and 403-grainers for a shoot-off out to 600 yards. Might take that to "shoot the diff." Being very familiar with the .458 WinMag handloading in my rifles, I will make it simple. MY starting load is 80.0 grains of AA-2230 with the 3mm HP Shock Hammer at 3.38" COL. That is a load that any factory .458 WinMag can handle, even if it exceeds SAAMI COL by 0.040" !
Western Powders data in a 24"-barreled (1:14" twist) .458 WinMag: Barnes Old Original SSSP (0.049" jacket) Win case F-215 primer COL 3.140" 80.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2457 fps <<< 53,690 psi 80.0 grains AA-2460 >>> 2452 fps <<< 52,746 psi
I expect velocity about +2500 fps in my 25" (1:14" twist) Shilen barrel. The fancy stuff with COL 3.48" and 3.58" and higher velocity will wait until later.
I am loading ammo tonight and ice and snow are easing up here now. To the outdoor range with the Shock Hammers soon.
I hope I'll be still around for Sir Ron's "self published" book on the great .458 WinMag. I'll be first in line for a copy. Mark me down for that, Ron!
Sir Larry, That 380-gr copper Lehigh copper FN is nice ... and out of stock ... The forerunner 402-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammer would work a lot like a cup point with the 0.25"-wide and shallow HP. Then there is the Barnes Buster that would mushroom some if velocity high enough. Hey it has a pinhole in the FN copper meplat and lead core. Buy a donkey for cajoling Sir Michael to test the new Shock Hammer whenever his schedule allows.
Sir Bob, You can be co-author. I have a lot of your data, been printing out your blog for years. It is filed in an Oxford binder entitled OOM BOB'S BLOG. "Oom" is Afrikaans for "Uncle." Buy a donkey for that.
So I flicked the oil out of 450 more of the bullets and wiped them with paper towels. Used a digital scale that agrees within 0.1 grain of both of my balance beam scales. I have weighed each and every one of 500 bullets. Some had as much as 0.6 grains of oil in their hollow points The weight of any residual oil on them will surely be "a wash" regarding uniformity checking.
I washed only 50 of them, as previously detailed. The rest will be left in ziplock bags until washed and returned to little plastic boxes from Hammer factory packaging, as needed for handloading. I got 10 little plastic boxes of 25 and one bulk cardboard box of 250.
Sometime this week they will be fired at range. Weather is getting good tomorrow but my 86-year-old mother needs some care-taking, not to mention my other Old Lady. Not all 86-year-olds are in as good shape as Sir Bob.
And just for old times sake, inspired by the "Projectile Dysfunction" video from CEB at B&M Forum:
The 500-gr/.458 TSX suffers from Projectile Dysfunction (PD). It may be an accurate target bullet in the .458 WinMag with 1:14" twist, but it is too long for stability after impact in some targets. With current economic conditions (let's go Brandon), it is smart to convert those 500-grainers to a more functional 480-grainer. Old picture below, bullet is now called the 480-gr/.458-cal eX-TSX. The .458 WIN-V 3.6" is now called the .458 WM+:
If you want a tougher "semi-soft" bullet, make it shorter and do not ream the hollowpoint, but put a chamfer on outside edge of meplat to reduce meplat to about 67% of caliber:
Since you are messing with the nose, not the base of the bullet, accuracy is easy:
Can't find an inkpad right now, but calipers and eyeball previously suggested this 480-grainer had close to a 70% FN meplat diameter. I must have done that on purpose, being familiar with the BBW research. The chamfer on the edge might get it closer to 65% to 67%.
That 480 grain 1.470 grain has looks appeal. Most interesting. Almost curious about a 450 grain with a similar treatment for a 420-430 grain bullet. Nice job on that 480 grain version.
That 480 grain 1.470 grain has looks appeal. Most interesting. Almost curious about a 450 grain with a similar treatment for a 420-430 grain bullet. Nice job on that 480 grain version.
Buy a donkey for the flowers, Sir Larry and Sir Dennis.
The 450-gr/.458-cal TSX is too nice a bullet to bubba-metamorphose. But shortening the nose of one of those by the same amount as was done to the 500-gr TSX would sure make a nice 430-gr semi-soft or semi-solid.
If Hammer was listening to me, they would have called it a "403" based on my sample. But, "404" does have a nice ring to it, close enough for "nominal" call of the bullet. Or maybe the new QC on the copper bar stock has tweaked it into a true 404-grainer, +/- 0.4 grains.
Anyway, kudos to Hammer Bullets on re-naming the 3mm HP .458 bullet to "404-g." Numerologically the "404" nominal has cachet in the DGR field. It is going to be outstanding in its field.
I have Larry Potterfield's Vol. 2 of "Short Stories" on the way and that 380-gr Lehigh copper WFN also to be studied firsthand. Sure looks like a great bullet for the .45-70 Gov't. rifles with .458" or .459" grooved barrel. There are some of those rifles needing feeding too, same as .458 WinMags.
Curious about the 404 hammer. What is your view of loading it up 5% from your 458 Win Mag load for my 348-450 Ackley improved? Five of those and I would guess either a bear or a moose would cry uncle and it probably would load well.
The 380 grain Lehigh Copper Flat Point was originally for my 45-70’s. It got my attention in Buffalo Bore’s factory loads. They are advertised at 2075 fps. Velocity only equaled by price. I bought a couple of boxes of the factory loads. Then ordered the bullets. WAG going by looks, it looks like it should penetrate well and cause a good trail of destruction along the way. I am eventually going to load some in the 458. 2300 fps should not be out of reason, maybe more. I am hoping for no issues with feeding in the bolt rifles.
I am not familiar with the Potterfield short stories. I assume a collection of his gun tips ?
So I flicked the oil out of 450 more of the bullets and wiped them with paper towels. Used a digital scale that agrees within 0.1 grain of both of my balance beam scales. I have weighed each and every one of 500 bullets. Some had as much as 0.6 grains of oil in their hollow points The weight of any residual oil on them will surely be "a wash" regarding uniformity checking.
I washed only 50 of them, as previously detailed. The rest will be left in ziplock bags until washed and returned to little plastic boxes from Hammer factory packaging, as needed for handloading. I got 10 little plastic boxes of 25 and one bulk cardboard box of 250.
Sometime this week they will be fired at range. Weather is getting good tomorrow but my 86-year-old mother needs some care-taking, not to mention my other Old Lady. Not all 86-year-olds are in as good shape as Sir Bob.
It's amazing, I feel great in comparison to last winter when I could barely lift a cup of coffee without shaking! That was the arthritis. Now I work out almost every day with nary a pain! I was on the phone yesterday with a member of our congregation who is the age of our oldest son, and we discussed the health issues from Covid - which both he and wife are recovering from - she was vaxxed 2x and he not at all. Anyway, I said the nurse who tended me after the fifth stent, said I had the heart of a 20-yr old, so would live a long time if I take care of myself - even into my nineties! I told him I didn't think I'd make a hundred, and he replied "Don't count it out, you're in good shape!" So I'm planning a bear hunt this spring.
But my wife is 85 and I ask prayer for her as she goes into the hospital for breast surgery on Monday due to cancer. She's very quiet about it and sombre, since she's nursed patients who've had the same surgery.
So I flicked the oil out of 450 more of the bullets and wiped them with paper towels. Used a digital scale that agrees within 0.1 grain of both of my balance beam scales. I have weighed each and every one of 500 bullets. Some had as much as 0.6 grains of oil in their hollow points The weight of any residual oil on them will surely be "a wash" regarding uniformity checking.
I washed only 50 of them, as previously detailed. The rest will be left in ziplock bags until washed and returned to little plastic boxes from Hammer factory packaging, as needed for handloading. I got 10 little plastic boxes of 25 and one bulk cardboard box of 250.
Sometime this week they will be fired at range. Weather is getting good tomorrow but my 86-year-old mother needs some care-taking, not to mention my other Old Lady. Not all 86-year-olds are in as good shape as Sir Bob.
It's amazing, I feel great in comparison to last winter when I could barely lift a cup of coffee without shaking! That was the arthritis. Now I work out almost every day with nary a pain! I was on the phone yesterday with a member of our congregation who is the age of our oldest son, and we discussed the health issues from Covid - which both he and wife are recovering from - she was vaxxed 2x and he not at all. Anyway, I said the nurse who tended me after the fifth stent, said I had the heart of a 20-yr old, so would live a long time if I take care of myself - even into my nineties! I told him I didn't think I'd make a hundred, and he replied "Don't count it out, you're in good shape!" So I'm planning a bear hunt this spring.
But my wife is 85 and I ask prayer for her as she goes into the hospital for breast surgery on Monday due to cancer. She's very quiet about it and sombre, since she's nursed patients who've had the same surgery.
Sir Larry, Those Potterfield books are coffee table books worth more than the $9.99 price he gets them out for. Sort of like the My Pillow Man's autobiography without the crack cocaine. Volume 1 is about his stories from safaris, NA, hunts and the time he got bit by a squirrel when he was 9 years old, and some gun tech stuff. Volume 2, will have to check out and report back. There is also a MIDWAY USA THE FIRST FORTY YEARS, glossy pictures galore and 191 pages, a real coffee table page turner.
Thanks for that tip on the testimony, will find it and watch it, Sir Bob.
The 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer has struck paper with my starting load.
I got out an hour before sundown on Thursday 2-10-2022 and turned on the auxillary chrono lights. Fired bullet #1 to verify on paper by bore-sighting at 50-yard target. Then an elevation adjustment of scope and shot #2 was fired. Then a windage adjustment of scope and shot #3 was fired. Third shot was an inch away from spot-on at 50 yards. With adequate fouling and the rifle and scope seeming to be functioning properly, three more shots were fired for 50-yard group and 5-yard chronograph. 48 degrees F Barrel: 25"-long Shilen, 1:14" twist, stainless, No. 5 sporter contour. CZ 550 Magnum with NightForce SHV 3-10x42mm in Burris X-Tac Low rings on 2-piece Picatinny bases. Hornady Brass F-215 primer COL = 3.480" (I relented on 3.380" COL due to discovering powder compression at that COL) Seating depth = 0.460" 80.0 grains of AA-2230 Instrumental velocities in fps: 2468, 2467, 2471 Mean = 2468.7 fps for BC = 0.419 G1, add 10.3 fps to correct to MV = 2479 fps Group at 50-yards was a cloverleaf of 0.430" on centers, equivalent to 0.82 MOA.
80.0 grains of AA-2230 is 100% fill or minimally compressed with no drop tube. I will use a drop tube and add more powder at same 3.480" COL. 81.0 grains ought to be over 2500 fps.
The PDR bands might be requiring more powder to get the pressure up. Just conserving expensive bullets here.
.. I am not sure the New Haven Super Express factory magazine is going to allow even a 3.340 coal length. Maybe.
For 404-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammer: Reduce COL by 0.100" and reduce powder charge by 4.0 grains of AA-2230. This is with Hornady, W-W and R-P brass, max charges to work up to:
3.28" COL: 72.0 gr 3.38" COL: 76.0 gr 3.48" COL: 80.0 gr 3.58" COL: 84.0 gr
Recall that the Norma-made brass might be 4 or 5 grains bigger in water capacity. With Norma brass I had to go up to 86.0 grains AA-2230 with the 450-gr TSX to blow a primer and get less velocity than 84 grains gave, at a COL of 3.565" IIRC. Looking back at page 34 of this thread:
83 or 84 grains AA-2230 with the lighter 404-grainer in the Norma brass at 3.580" COL, might be a safe way to work-harden that Norma brass.
I have been hunting hard with 'Fatso' (my Zastava .458) nearly every weekend trying to desperately collect a Sambar but alas, haven't got one...yet!
But I've seen a few and been I've honked plenty of times... bloody things!
However I was out again yesterday and although I saw no Sambar I did see a herd of Fallow deer about 100m away from where I was positioned. So I thought I'd see if a .458 Win Mag with 550gn Woodleighs was adequate for Fallow!
I crept to about 80m away from a doe feeding off from the group and carefully aimed. Just as I was about to shoot she looked up and saw me so I quickly fired. I lost view of her under recoil but the shot felt good. As I carefully walked to where I last saw her I saw a big pile of hair on the ground. I few more steps and I found her lying dead. I'd hit her just a bit off centre of the chest and the projectile had exited just behind the ribs. What was unusual was the hair was blown off the deer along where the bullet travelled. Interesting, I'd never seen that before...
So guys, I am here to tell you if you are hunting Fallow a .458 Winchester Magnum is adequate.
Sir Russ is a Wizard, does magic tricks with his .458 WinMag. I have never seen anything like that before. The .458 Winchester Magnum never ceases to amaze.
Was that a 450-gr HYDRO that shocked the hair off that deer hide ?
I have been frozen out of the range work again, I await warmer temps for next outing to try these loads with the 404-gr Shock Hammer and AA-2230 powder:
80-gr and 81-gr loads in W-W Super brass. 80-gr and 84-gr loads in Norma brass.
All at 3.480" COL and no compression in any of those with use of drop tube.
The Lehigh 380-grain Copper WFN has about a 78% meplat, which is too big to feed in my CZ .458 WM+.
Right you are! It was the 450gn Hydro... typo apologies gentlemen!
Stay posted my friends as I'm planning on doing a lot of hunting with Fatso this coming year - with the exception of my next hunt. My next hunt I'll be using the grand old .303 British to bag a deer. That is a bucket list thing of mine and I'm going to make it happen hopefully next trip!
But getting back to the excellent .458 Winchester Magnum, what a great load that 450gn Hydro is at 2300fps. It works well on Elephant down to little Fallow deer. Talk about having your bases covered. And recoil is not too bad for what you're getting in return... a truely sublime round.
Even at 2150 fps the 450 grain Punch and 450 grain NF FPS shot through the elephant head and on into the body. Besides, with a hotter load, that metal butt plate might pinch something!
Interesting on the 380 grain WFN Lehigh. I have not tried it in the 458 Winchester yet. It feeds with various seating depths, in my CZ 550 Safari Classic 458 Winchester / 458 Lott and MRC stainless 458 Lott.
Edit: The CZ had made a trip to AHR before I got it. Which may or not have an influence of its feeding. The MRC was bought used also, it looks totally unaltered. And of course, appeared few or any rounds through it when I bought it.
Sir Russ; For myself it was brown bear and Sitka Blacktail deer. . Yes, it works wonders. You guys ought to see how well it works with a 300 grain X or TSX at 2700 fps mv. It shoots like a 375 and kills like a 458.
BTW. I've decided that The Spruce King will get abbreviated when I get him back up and working for a living again. Barrel will be 16.5" long with a Harrell's muzzle brake added to the end of it. Finished total length will not exceed 18" And I'm going to try to find a nice slender stock for it. Maybe a McMillan ?? Possibly a Boyd's laminated stock that I slim down.
Yes. I has a canoe paddle stock on it. But I kinds messed it up in my youth🤔. It's been worked hard . But it's like a Timex. Takes a Licking and keeps on Ticking. I've had such good success with the 300 and 350 grain X and TSX. And they have a moderate recoil. Easily flat enough trajectory for 300 yard caribou. And ample thump an Dump for grizzly or brown bear at 20 feet. I should still get 2600 fps from a 16.5" barrel. With the 300 grainers. Who knows what the left is gonna do. Judging from the lack of components at the local toy store. We might need to focus down on the important parts of having a few great rifles that fill a multi purpose role. A pseudo scout bear thumper that can also blitz a coyote at 300 yards or put ruminates in the freezer or canning jars would be an A #1 rifle to keep handy. Few things as handy as a short little carbine.
Carbines are especially favored as the dunny gun for outhouse patrol, whether in Kentucky or Alaska. The Spruce King is indeed capable of all-purpose work, as Sir Spruce explains.
More loads to be tested when the freezing weather warms up again. Will use some W-W Super brass and some Norma brass at next outing. W-W Super is identical to Hornady for load work-up purposes, but the NORMA is quite different. Will eventually be trying to "shoot the diff" with 400-grainer and 403-grainer at 600 yards.
Meanwhile at McCourry Institute of Ballistics in South Carolina:
Carbines are especially favored as the dunny gun for outhouse patrol, whether in Kentucky or Alaska. The Spruce King is indeed capable of all-purpose work, as Sir Spruce explains.
Very impressive !! Thank you Sir Ron ! That scope on there is going down the road also ! That is the most troublesome scope I've ever owned in my life . 2.5 power Burris Fullfield. What a horrible thing ! It's been back to the factory 4 times. I call and talk to people at Burris. I did when I first got that scope. They assured me that I couldn't shoot a rifle powerful enough to break their scope. It is currently broken AGAIN !
BTW. I've decided that The Spruce King will get abbreviated when I get him back up and working for a living again. Barrel will be 16.5" long with a Harrell's muzzle brake added to the end of it. Finished total length will not exceed 18" And I'm going to try to find a nice slender stock for it. Maybe a McMillan ?? Possibly a Boyd's laminated stock that I slim down.
CTF,
Just be careful with the Boyd's laminate stock mate. A guy on one of the forums down here in Oz had one fitted to his .458 and a few of us were asking him how it went because we were thinking of fitting one to our .458's.. He told us that not too long after fitting, the recoil caused it to split down the centre. He warned us against fitting one to a .458 and he then fitted a McMillan to his rifle.
Buy a donkey for the levity. You need an agent to get you some standup comedy bookings, maybe a 10-program contract with Netflix. Dave Chappelle had a nice gig there. We need someone to step up for another round.
Wife liked that homemade apple butter best of all. Need recipe for that and the King Arthur Sour Dough. That would make some great lady fingers for the next meeting of The Square Table.
And regarding the Shock Hammer bullet, Steve Davis said they have a handle on it. Problem affects only the largest size bar stock they use. So I got two new bullets. A 400-grainer and a 403-grainer with 3mm hollow point.
If the 400-gr BC is 0.419, then the 403-gr BC is 0.422 G1. Always look on the bright side.
LOL, You're most welcome Sir Ron, glad you both enjoyed the grub, i'll check with wife on recipes, she may have to send your Wife a live sample of her science project she feeds each week, that's the thing that's been alive in Wifes family for more than 90 years now, glad you guys are coming along with the 400gr Hammers, i think my invite may have landed then got eighty sixed in the email trash bin or junk pile.
Had a great weekend enjoying the Boma i built for Wife last week, gonna rest up a few days now, sheet i'm getting old, spreading 15 ton of sand over a 30x35 foot oval with a shovel sucks, but well worth the effort!
CTF, Another stock option that you might consider is the Bell & Carlson for the Rugers. This has the full length bedding block and is for the “magnum” barrel contour, such as the 338 Winchester. I have had no issue with them fitting 375 & 416 Ruger. Your 458 barrel looks a bit bigger. I compared weight of a B&C Ruger, to a Ruger McMillian McSwirly with mag-fill in the action area. The B&C was surprisingly a few tenths of an ounce lighter.
Originally Posted by BadboyMelvin
Originally Posted by ColdTriggerFinger
BTW. I've decided that The Spruce King will get abbreviated when I get him back up and working for a living again. Barrel will be 16.5" long with a Harrell's muzzle brake added to the end of it. Finished total length will not exceed 18" And I'm going to try to find a nice slender stock for it. Maybe a McMillan ?? Possibly a Boyd's laminated stock that I slim down.
CTF,
Just be careful with the Boyd's laminate stock mate. A guy on one of the forums down here in Oz had one fitted to his .458 and a few of us were asking him how it went because we were thinking of fitting one to our .458's.. He told us that not too long after fitting, the recoil caused it to split down the centre. He warned us against fitting one to a .458 and he then fitted a McMillan to his rifle.
BTW. I've decided that The Spruce King will get abbreviated when I get him back up and working for a living again. Barrel will be 16.5" long with a Harrell's muzzle brake added to the end of it. Finished total length will not exceed 18" And I'm going to try to find a nice slender stock for it. Maybe a McMillan ?? Possibly a Boyd's laminated stock that I slim down.
CTF,
Just be careful with the Boyd's laminate stock mate. A guy on one of the forums down here in Oz had one fitted to his .458 and a few of us were asking him how it went because we were thinking of fitting one to our .458's.. He told us that not too long after fitting, the recoil caused it to split down the centre. He warned us against fitting one to a .458 and he then fitted a McMillan to his rifle.
Just wanted to share his experience.
Russ
Thank you. I plan on bedding and cross bolting the daylights out of it. I Really like the Boyd's Classic ( JRS) shape as it has the most comfortable grip. A good drop at the comb and the foreend can be slimmed without taking too much from the sides of the action area. My goal is a nice lively handling feel that is comfortable for carrying in my hand or with a Ching style sling. My primary dislike of the Ruger Zytel stock is the cramped grip.
Sir Jerry, I made a "Rooster Note" on how to please "Mama Chicken": Build her a 30x35 foot boma with concrete patio. Quite the Valentine there.
Sir Spruce, I have made the Boyd's and Richards Micro-Fit laminates work on harder kickers than the MIGHTY .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM. Not much difference in those two laminates, I reckon. They are still just wood between the epoxy gluing. They can crack along the wood laminations.
One was reinforced every-which-way after a crack developed at the tang on a .460 Wby. It lived on after a re-barreling to 470 Mbogo.
The other was used on a .500 Mbogo, reinforced at the start, no cracks yet. They can gain a pound with all the embedded steel allthread and epoxy in 3-D inside the stock. Can be slim but heavy.
I much prefer the B&C Medalist type stock as Sir Larry suggests. They weigh only 2.0 to 2.5 pounds for M70/M77 to CZ 550 Magnum, With the bedding block, no barrel lug is needed on a .458 WinMag, or any other man-portable piece.
I was able to do the Valentine's Day duty and fit in a trip to the range yesterday. It was a perfect "blue bird day," as a duck hunter would say. Calm and sunny and temps were 39 to 40 degrees F from start to end of shooting, finished about 90 minutes before sunset..
I have found a load to try at "shooting the diff" between 400-grainer and 403-grainer at 600 yards. This is with W-W brass having 94.4 grains gross H2O last time I checked:
80.0 grains of loose pour was about 100% LR at 3.480" COL with the Shock Hammer "404/.458." 81.0 grains with drop tube might be more efficient at 3.480" COL with the Shock Hammer in the W-W brass.
By comparison, the Hornady brass was 94.3 grains gross H2O and should be interchangeable for load data.
My lot of Norma brass is bigger at 98.8 grains H2O gross when checked same way as the W-W and Hornady methods.
To simplify and round to nearest grain of H20, when all brass is 2.500" long, 95 grains for W-W and Hornady 99 grains for Norma, my lot. The Norma manual claims 95 grains for their brass but might be for new, unfired, and shorter than 2.500" and/or might be a variation in lots over the years. I go by once-fired, not sized, and full 2.500" for my 95-grain simplification with the W-W and Hornady. BTW, that is the default case capacity assigned to the .458 WM by my QuickLOAD software, an old version. Discussion of R-P and Federal brass will be saved for later attempts at tedium along with the making of .458 WinMag brass from any belted case long enough, especially the .458 Lott. Heh heh.
Norma brass, same rifle, 39*F at start, 40*F at finish, all with "404"/.458, F-215, AA-2230
3.380" COL 78.0 gr >>> 2395 fps MV 80.0 gr >>> 2489 fps MV
3.480" COL 80.0 gr >>> 2425 fps MV 82.0 gr >>> 2496 fps MV 84.0 gr >>> 2545 fps MV
Compare to
Hornady Brass 3.480" COL 80.0 gr >>> 2479 fps MV at 48*F
W-W Brass 3.480" COL 80.0 gr >>> 2475 fps MV at 39*F 81.0 gr >>> 2517 fps MV at 39*F, charged with drop tube
My COAL looks like the SAAMI Max of 3.340” for the unaltered M70 458 Winchester.
So my velocity hopes out of the 22” barrel, shall be lower than your lowest achievement. I will be satisfied with 2300 fps. Anything over 2300 more happy.
At 2300, based on a BC of .410, I should still be slightly about 1900 fps at 200 yds with minimal trajectory concern.
Sir Jerry, I made a "Rooster Note" on how to please "Mama Chicken": Build her a 30x35 foot boma with concrete patio. Quite the Valentine there.
Sir Spruce, I have made the Boyd's and Richards Micro-Fit laminates work on harder kickers than the MIGHTY .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM. Not much difference in those two laminates, I reckon. They are still just wood between the epoxy gluing. They can crack along the wood laminations.
One was reinforced every-which-way after a crack developed at the tang on a .460 Wby. It lived on after a re-barreling to 470 Mbogo.
The other was used on a .500 Mbogo, reinforced at the start, no cracks yet. They can gain a pound with all the embedded steel allthread and epoxy in 3-D inside the stock. Can be slim but heavy.
I much prefer the B&C Medalist type stock as Sir Larry suggests. They weigh only 2.0 to 2.5 pounds for M70/M77 to CZ 550 Magnum, With the bedding block, no barrel lug is needed on a .458 WinMag, or any other man-portable piece.
Thank you Sir Ron . I got too sleepy to intelligently reply to Sir Larry last night. I will see if I can lay hands on one. The Spruce King has a big underbarrel recoil lug silver soldered well forward . Iirc around 12" in front of the receiver ring . But I'm sure some judicious use of a dremil tool can open a hole to fit it into.
Is the lowest impact velocity for expansion yet known/claimed for the new "404"gr/.458 ?
It appears from multiple examples cited by individuals (including myself) that the "book" claimed impact velocity for expansion doesn't always "fit" personal experience, both ways (above or below). Of course, the medium used (water, ballistic gel, animal flesh and bone, etc) is the greatest influence on real results.
Perhaps Sir Ron could chime in here for his view/experience, and/or any others.
My COAL looks like the SAAMI Max of 3.340” for the unaltered M70 458 Winchester.
So my velocity hopes out of the 22” barrel, shall be lower than your lowest achievement. I will be satisfied with 2300 fps. Anything over 2300 more happy.
At 2300, based on a BC of .410, I should still be slightly about 1900 fps at 200 yds with minimal trajectory concern.
Idmay375, Your requirements are easy to meet, as I too have a Model 70 with 22" barrel. Using the Barnes 400gn X bullet (Still have a batch loaded up) and a load of 74gn of H 4198, I chronographed 2434fps over my Oehler 35P. OAL is 3.345" My back up load used 76gn of H322 for 2380fps so exceeding 2300fps in the 22" barrel length is a done deal.
Just to demonstrate how versatile the .458 is with heavier loads, I found a couple of decent loads for the Barnes 450gn TSX bullets using 72gn of H 322 for 2381fps ( OAL was 3.338") and 68gn of H 4198 which achieved 2360fps. (OAL 3.434") I never correct velocities to Muzzle Velocity and the 35P is set at 15 feet from the muzzle to eliminate muzzle blast on the screens. John
I am somewhat optimistic that 2400 is doable. The H4198 & H322 are rare birds around here. IMR 4198 & H335 make somewhat frequent visits to the store shelves.
Once I get to the loading point, I have the Accurate 2230 & 2460 to try first. I keep an eye open for the H4198 & H322. But have not seen it in a very long time.
The 2400’ish FPS would be my idea of nearly perfect for my uses.
I have some of the 450 grain TSX. Until the new Hammer bullet came about it was going to be my default. As I pretty much had given up on finding a 400 grain type with a BC of .400. I have high hopes of this Hammer bullet as my do-all bullet.
Is the lowest impact velocity for expansion yet known/claimed for the new "404"gr/.458 ?
It appears from multiple examples cited by individuals (including myself) that the "book" claimed impact velocity for expansion doesn't always "fit" personal experience, both ways (above or below). Of course, the medium used (water, ballistic gel, animal flesh and bone, etc) is the greatest influence on real results.
Perhaps Sir Ron could chime in here for his view/experience, and/or any others.
I am not sure Bob. This bullet may or may not vary from their regular line of Shock Hammer bullets. But this is from their website.
All of the Hammer Bullets that are designed for hunting are impact tested down to 1800 fps impact velocity for proper deformation. We have not been able to impact a Hammer Bullet at too high of an impact velocity. They will retain the same weight at low and high velocity impacts.
"My COAL looks like the SAAMI Max of 3.340” for the unaltered M70 458 Winchester."
R: Are you sure? I just this minute slipped a 3.380" COL into the box of my unaltered M70 .458 Winchester Magnum Super Grade. My box is a little over 3.4" inside length. Most I have measured are about 3.42". Additionally I can single-load the 3.480" COL dummy and eject it after chambering.
"So my velocity hopes out of the 22” barrel, shall be lower than your lowest achievement. I will be satisfied with 2300 fps. Anything over 2300 more happy."
R: Maybe. But you do get more bang per grain of powder in a shorter COL. Cartridge Overall Length is your friend, short or long. The latest test with differing COL and all else same: 3.380" COL gave 2489 fps MV 3.480" COL gave 2425 fps MV Shortening COL by 0.100" gave 64 fps more velocity. That alone could compensate for about 3" of barrel shortening in the 20" to 24" length range. Shortening COL to 3.280" will get velocity even higher for same powder charge and barrel length. Just work up for velocity/pressure for your rifle with COL you prefer, as you please, looking for accuracy nodes.
Velocity for barrel length varies greatly among rifles. Tim Sundles has an 18" barrel and a 22" barrel that both produce about 2250 fps with his 400-gr TSX load for .458 WinMag, 22" velocity was 2247 fps. 18" velocity was 2250 fps, quoting his web site. His COL is 3.310" for the commercial load. Same load in my 24" Ruger No. 1 gave 2325 fps at 5 yards, 2338 fps MV for G1 BC = 0.324 so you never know until you try.
"At 2300, based on a BC of .410, I should still be slightly about 1900 fps at 200 yds with minimal trajectory concern."
R: Count those chickens after they are hatched. I am hoping to shed some light on the G1 BC estimate of 0.419 with some shooting at 100, 200, 300 and 600 yards.
"The Spruce King has a big underbarrel recoil lug silver soldered well forward . Iirc around 12" in front of the receiver ring . But I'm sure some judicious use of a dremil tool can open a hole to fit it into."
My comments to Sir Spruce: I used a B&C CZ 550 Mag stock on my second 500 Mbogo and it is about a pound lighter than the first one in reinforced laminate stock. I did have to use a Dremel Tool to cut a recess in the forearm for my custom barrel lug on that 500 Mbogo. The aluminum endoskeleton of the B&C stock had to be cut into there. It runs from near forearm tip to all the way back through grip. Good stocks from B&C. I prefer them over any other, especially for the value for dollars and strength for weight.
Attention getting meme to flag the start of page 90, no offense meant to Sir Bob who suffers under Fidel Trudeau. He might take some comfort in realizing he is not suffering O'Biden and Obamala as directly as his southern neighbors.
Originally Posted by CZ550
Is the lowest impact velocity for expansion yet known/claimed for the new "404"gr/.458 ?
I called Steve Davis at Hammer Bullets yesterday. They have not tested that particular yet, as they have just now produced it on my request, as a simple scale-up of their 270-gr/.375-cal "Dangerous Game" Shock Hammer. That bullet has reportedly performed very well in all regards, artificial media and field reports on game animal bagging. Bagged well.
Steve says the "404"/.458 SH might start opening up in the 1500 to 1600 fps range. He expects all the petals to blow off by 1800 fps, leaving a flat nose penetrator and secondary-wounding petals. No top end limit on speed, whether 1800 fps or 2600 fps from the mighty .458 WinMag. We shall see.
I would expect that sort of thing with a brass hollow point, but not the usual for a copper monometal.
Hammer Bullets are made from a special alloy, 99.8% copper and something else: Sulfur !!! Fire and brimstone !!! Steve Davis said they had the copper from GSC and CEB spectrographically analyzed. They say they tried those alloys and they did not work like they wanted. Somehow they hit upon a different alloy and it worked wonders. The copper rod suppliers thought they were crazy in wanting that alloy for bullet making.
I guess it machines beautifully, like "free-machining 360" brass, and reportedly makes the petals explode off similar to brass, only better than brass since the metal is denser than brass. This is all hear say, but I say it hears good.
To shoot water jugs and buckets at velocities from ~1500fps to ~2500 fps is my plan. The MIB tests in wetpack by Sir Michael are coming, Lord willing and the creeks don't rise. He is pretty good at recovering and photographing bullets for his immense data base.
Idmay375, Your requirements are easy to meet, as I too have a Model 70 with 22" barrel. Using the Barnes 400gn X bullet (Still have a batch loaded up) and a load of 74gn of H 4198, I chronographed 2434fps over my Oehler 35P. OAL is 3.345" My back up load used 76gn of H322 for 2380fps so exceeding 2300fps in the 22" barrel length is a done deal.
Just to demonstrate how versatile the .458 is with heavier loads, I found a couple of decent loads for the Barnes 450gn TSX bullets using 72gn of H 322 for 2381fps ( OAL was 3.338") and 68gn of H 4198 which achieved 2360fps. (OAL 3.434") I never correct velocities to Muzzle Velocity and the 35P is set at 15 feet from the muzzle to eliminate muzzle blast on the screens. John
Sir Woods, That is some excellent information, duly recorded for posterity. I do love the H322 and H4198, which never disappointed me in everything I have tried them in. Buy a donkey for that.
My SWAG on barrel length versus velocity in a .458 WinMag, assuming barrel length is the only variable:
From 20" to 28 " the average is about 15 fps per inch. 10 fps per inch on either side of 28" length. 20 fps per inch on either side of 20" length. Below 20" length: Rapidly increasing loss per inch of barrel shortening. Beyond 30" barrel length: Velocity is lost for each inch of barrel lengthening.
But here is the caveat: Barrels differ in internal dimensions and finish.
A particular 400-gr load in my 25" Shilen stainless barrel (0.4585" groove diameter) gave 2527 fps. Same load in my 23" McGowen stainless barrel (0.4580" groove diameter) gave 2511 fps, same day, same temperature, same gunsmith, same reamer, standard SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber.
I am considering my .458 BMW (.458 B&M-Win-Throated) for testing of the 404-g/.458 SH bullet. Barrel is by PacNor, 1:10" twist , stainless, 8-groove, 0.4580" groove diameter. Barrel length is 19.75 inches. When loaded to COL of 3.220" it has same case capacity net as the .458 WM+ with 3.480" COL. Maybe try 60% to 105% LR of H4895 and see how low and how high it will go. Knocking some velocity off with the shorter barrel will make it go lower more easily.
Comparing same loads to my 23"-barreled .458 WM+ at 3.480" COL will be interesting. Different barrel makers and different twists and groove numbers, but both are 0.4580" groove diameter.
Load data for .458 BMW ought to work "grain-for-grain" in the .458 WM+. SWAG 65 fps faster MV with the 23" barrel compared to 19.75" barrel. Better hatch those eggs before counting the chickens.
Saint Sir Metford sweated not bullet weight variation as much as he did powder charge variation.
He said there was a compensating factor with bullet weight variation.
My SWAG on his thought is that if two bullets are externally of same shape and linear dimensions but weights are different due to a uniform alloy difference in the two cast bullets with no voids or localized density variations within each bullet, no eccentricities or weeble-wobbles:
The slightly heavier bullet will have a proportionally higher BC and lower MV. Those two factors are compensating factors. The points of impact will be little different for the two bullets, out to 1000 yards muzzleloader target.
Sir Ron, You have a 10 twist 458 and a 14 twist 458 that you can launch bullets at the same muzzle velocity yet very different RPM. Should be interesting with the Hammers! Lot's of folks are interested in High RPM results in Game. I do think the Hammer bullets, designed to blow off Petals could be interesting. Certainly was in a 35 Whelen 10 twist on Deer as we have seen posted. No 35 Whelen 14 twist on Deer to compare. Tally HO!!
Rechecked / re-measured seated Hammer. It looks like 3.352” just fits in the magazine box of this Super Express. Possibly another couple of .001’s is available. But at 3.352” it very close to touching at the nose with the base of brass against the rear of the box. At 3.354 the nose rubs the front of the box. I think, I will go with the 3.340” to 3.345”. Hopefully it will fit any other 458 Winchester magazine box that I might deal with. Which I still have to check the Interarms Whitworth.
Sir Dennis, Yes, it will be interesting. Rather than shoot a water trap at 200-yard range with standard (14") twist and high MV, one could get close to same velocity and RPM at impact using faster (10") twist and slower MV at 25-yard water trap. Less likely to miss the jug and waste an expensive bullet ! Then to see if low RPM affects the shearing of petals at low impact velocity at 25-yard range I have that covered with a 20" twist rifle that can take the full range of powder charges used in the .458 BMW. Yes, the old .45-100-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated, re-invented in 2019, identical to the .45-70 Elko Magnum from C.I.P.in 1992.
Here is a story I wrote on another forum some time ago so I thought I'd post it here. It actually needs updating a bit as I wrote it a while ago now, but everything I wrote then I stand by now and I had fun writing it. I Hope it doesn't bore you all!
Hey guys,
I'm at home sick (not Covid!) and I'm bored so I thought I'd share my .458 journey with you all. I have personally owned 5 .458's over the years but my latest one is a keeper. Every time I've sold one I have ended up regretting it so I'm not selling this one!
My first .458 I bought after reading an article in Australian Shooters Journal magazine by John Woods. (AussieGunWriter) It was a CZ550 Safari Magnum with the hogsback stock. I fitted it with a Tasco 1-4x scope (hey, I didn't know any better at the time... but the scope survived!) and it was a nice rifle. It didn't feed that well but it was my introduction to big-bores. I fed this rifle a mixture of Winchester 510gn Super X ammo and some reloads consisting of the 300gn Sierra on top of a min load of AR2207 for a chronographed 2650fps. My intention was to originally ream this .458 to the .458LOTT - and I even got a quote for this job off a gunsmith, but when I found I was easily getting the velocity I was after out of the standard .458, I kept it as is, thus starting my love affair with the .458 Winchester. I owned this rifle for a while but I found that my reloads and factory ammo didn't feed through the mag that well, and instead of getting it fixed I eventually ended up selling the rifle... which I regretted.
The second .458 was also a CZ550 but with the American style stock. I spent a bit of coin on this rifle, sending it to the respected gunsmith/ gun maker Kudu Services in Melbourne for some custom touches. I had the fore-end shortened and a buffalo horn tip fitted for that safari look. Also has a couple of cross-bolts fitted and the action smoothed out as it wouldn't feed at all when first purchased. The barrel was shortened to 21" and a barrel-band sling swivel was added. It was topped with a Pentax 2.5 scope. This was a really nice looking rifle and was my introduction to hand loading long to suit the magnum sized magazine of the CZ. A very easy load of AR 2206H achieved a spot on 2150fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP through the 21" barrel. I ended up selling this rifle to a well known gun writer in Australia to fund my next .458 purchase... Looking at the photo's of this rifle I probably shouldn't have sold it...
My next .458 I purchased was a Winchester M70. This was a great rifle but before I owned it, it was apparently a bit of a lemon. I remember reading on forums about this actual rifle and how it had to be rectified to make it work satisfactory. So when I purchased it I felt like I knew it already. I fitted the same Pentax 2.5 scope to it and I fed this rifle the same loads I fed through the CZ - except they were too long. So what I did was seat the projectiles of these reloads deeper so that they would fit in the Winchester mag. These rounds were very compressed and chronographed over 2200fps and kicked accordingly. I ended up regretfully selling this rifle as I needed the funds and it just wasn't being used. I can happily say though that I have kept track of it and it's still going strong and killing the hell out of big stuff up in Queensland. I regret selling that rifle...
After selling the Winchester there was a void in my life because I no longer owned a rifle that could kill an elephant... so I rectified that by buying a Zastava M70 with the Walnut stock. I bought this rifle from a gunshop in Queensland (who were very rude) and was informed that this rifle was on its second stock - having split the first one before a box of shells had been put through it. I was then again rudely informed that if the second stock split it was my problem. I bought it anyway as the price was right. I paid $700 for this rifle and straight away took it to Bob at Kudu Services again to get the stock strengthened, cross-bolted and to get a buffalo horn tip fitted. Bob took one look at the stock and in his usual blunt, to the point style said it was a waste of his time and my money doing that work as the stock was rubbish! He then went out the back and brought out a Hogue pillar bedded synthetic stock and said I was better off fitting that. I left the rifle with him to fit as the safety needed modifications. This rifle also taught me a valuable lesson to having to buy quality scopes for big-bore rifles - as it chewed through 3 before I finally bought a Leupold 2-7x33 which survived. I fed this rifle a reload consisting of the Woodleigh 480gn RNSP over 74gn of 2206H which delivered a spot-on 2150fps and cloverleafed 3 shots at 50m. This rifle was built on a budget and I have to say that it fed and ejected flawlessly from the start - no 'smithing was needed.
It was about this time that deer hunting became my passion and as good as the .458 was, it wasn't the ideal deer rifle. So I ended up trading the Zastava for a Weatherby Vanguard in .300Wby to a young guy who worked at a gunshop I frequent. Talking to the guys who work there, apparently he took it out once - with my reloads, fired some and promptly said 'stuff that' then sold it! Who would've thought that an elephant gun kicked??? But inevitably that void of not owning a .458 soon hit me, so I began the search for another one. My poor wife agreed with the one proviso this was to be my last .458... I was chatting to a friend who put me onto some leads, but when googling I found that Owen's guns in Queensland had some brand new. And for only $940. I quickly purchased one and I now owned my 5th and last .458. The first thing I needed to do was replace the stock as experience told me that this would be necessary. I put out the feelers on Australia's largest shooting/ hunting forum that I was after synthetic stock to suit a FN Mauser and straight away found another Hogue stock - but this one had the full aluminium bedding block, not just the pillars. After modifying the safety myself (a simple 5min job) the Hogue was fitted and it was awesome. Nice and stiff and free floated. After my learnt lesson with scopes last time, I straight away purchased a Leupold 1.5-4 in Leupold mounts/ rings. I was told by a big-bore expert that these mounts weren't up to scratch so they were replaced with Warne rings and mounts. Even though the 480gn Woodleighs performed perfectly I wanted to try something different with this rifle, so I purchased some 550gn Woodleigh RNSP. I contacted Geoff McDonald of Woodleigh and he said to try 73gn of BM2 (BENCHMARK) for around 2100fps. This I did and got a chronographed 2080fps in my rifle... pretty close! I got a total spread of 4 fps! Recoil was pretty noticeable (sucked) with this load but once again (and this is a familiar story) it did put bullets in the same hole at 50m. To be absolutely honest this load, in this rifle, calculated to 80ft/lbs and exceeded my recoil tolerance shooting off the bench. Off hand its unpleasant, but manageable... just. I haven't tried this load on game yet, but I think it's obvious that it'll be pretty effective putting out 5200ft/lbs of energy. I actually think that this latest Zastava might be my favourite. It just feels perfect in my hands and I love everything about it. This one's a keeper.
When I purchased my latest Zastava and went to purchase some factory ammo I found out that Winchester had stopped making it's cheap Super X stuff with the 510gn Powerpoint. Brass - when you could find it was expensive and this left me with a dilemma... what to feed it! I called around and luckily came across someone who had an unopened case of some .458 factory ammo... from the 80's! It was the white and orange box stuff and I wondered if it would still be ok? Well, not only was it ok it also was the fastest factory ammo I'd personally ever fired through a .458. Most factory stuff - even fired through a 25' barrel of a CZ, only reached around 1970fps, where this stuff was doing 2015fps. This was only 25fps less than the box said. It was also super consistent and super accurate (like all .458's are) once again putting 3 bullets in one hole at 50m. To be truthful I only bought this ammo to shoot off as quickly as possible so I could use the empties, but this ammo was so good, I used it for all my deer hunting for quite a while. I've only now just started using the 550's - but this stuff has proved to be great.
So there's my .458 story. I love the .458 and it is without a doubt my favourite round. All the horror stories you have heard or read are ancient history and the .458 is a simple round to load. It's also super accurate.
Hope I didn't bore you and thanks for reading!
Russ
550gn Woodleigh handload at just under 2100fps... When you absolutely, positively need to put something on it's bum!
2 factory Super X rounds that completely penetrated a big Gum tree at 50m... coz everyone knows the .458 doesn't penetrate...
480gn Woodleigh vs Fallow at 150m
Sambar taken with the .458 loaded with factory stuff
[img]https://i.imgur.com/xiXKP9h.jpg[/img] My first Red taken with the .458 in miserable conditions... also with factory ammo
LOL, a new Boma for Mama will get you lots of back rubs and head scratchins Sir Ron, little Wife loves hers, going to be 60-65 for highs across the weekend, she'll have her toebones planted in the sand with good book, wine and fire again LOL.
Great work with the 400gr Hammers in the mighty 458 WM+, cant wait to see/read about the first animals smacked with that combo, also anxious to hear about M's penetration tests, i've been working with my Turnbull '86 in 50-110 WCF, have a 530gr greaser with 0.325" flat meplat cast with 16/1 alloy running 1361 fps over 110gr Swiss FG, should make a great hunting load, and one i can use out to 3-400 yards with the Smith ladder barrel sight.
Excellent on the .458 Hammer order. If these babies perform as well as they look, my searching / wishing for a 400 grain.458 bullet is over.
For my purpose in North America, this bullet should literally Hammer any moose or bear.
I anxiously await further test results by Sir Ron & the MIB results.
This Hammer bullet, the North Fork 350 grain Cup Point expanding solid, and the Lehigh 380 grain Copper WFN Flat Point solid, have regenerated my interest in the .458 caliber rifles. I am still keeping an eye out for 325 grain NF Cup Points to try in the 45-70 lever guns. But, the 350 grain version will serve well for the 45-70 & 458’s.
Russ, we need to get some of these Hammer 400/404 grain bullets in your hands. You whack a lot of animals, and trace the bullet performance, an excellent source for bullet performance from big to small animals.
Someone, somewhere, in Australia ordered some of these to test out on Buffalo. That should be about the ultimate test, probably the same for those big scrub bulls.
Here is a story I wrote on another forum some time ago so I thought I'd post it here. It actually needs updating a bit as I wrote it a while ago now, but everything I wrote then I stand by now and I had fun writing it. I Hope it doesn't bore you all!
Hey guys,
I'm at home sick (not Covid!) and I'm bored so I thought I'd share my .458 journey with you all. I have personally owned 5 .458's over the years but my latest one is a keeper. Every time I've sold one I have ended up regretting it so I'm not selling this one!
My first .458 I bought after reading an article in Australian Shooters Journal magazine by John Woods. (AussieGunWriter) It was a CZ550 Safari Magnum with the hogsback stock. I fitted it with a Tasco 1-4x scope (hey, I didn't know any better at the time... but the scope survived!) and it was a nice rifle. It didn't feed that well but it was my introduction to big-bores. I fed this rifle a mixture of Winchester 510gn Super X ammo and some reloads consisting of the 300gn Sierra on top of a min load of AR2207 for a chronographed 2650fps. My intention was to originally ream this .458 to the .458LOTT - and I even got a quote for this job off a gunsmith, but when I found I was easily getting the velocity I was after out of the standard .458, I kept it as is, thus starting my love affair with the .458 Winchester. I owned this rifle for a while but I found that my reloads and factory ammo didn't feed through the mag that well, and instead of getting it fixed I eventually ended up selling the rifle... which I regretted.
The second .458 was also a CZ550 but with the American style stock. I spent a bit of coin on this rifle, sending it to the respected gunsmith/ gun maker Kudu Services in Melbourne for some custom touches. I had the fore-end shortened and a buffalo horn tip fitted for that safari look. Also has a couple of cross-bolts fitted and the action smoothed out as it wouldn't feed at all when first purchased. The barrel was shortened to 21" and a barrel-band sling swivel was added. It was topped with a Pentax 2.5 scope. This was a really nice looking rifle and was my introduction to hand loading long to suit the magnum sized magazine of the CZ. A very easy load of AR 2206H achieved a spot on 2150fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP through the 21" barrel. I ended up selling this rifle to a well known gun writer in Australia to fund my next .458 purchase... Looking at the photo's of this rifle I probably shouldn't have sold it...
My next .458 I purchased was a Winchester M70. This was a great rifle but before I owned it, it was apparently a bit of a lemon. I remember reading on forums about this actual rifle and how it had to be rectified to make it work satisfactory. So when I purchased it I felt like I knew it already. I fitted the same Pentax 2.5 scope to it and I fed this rifle the same loads I fed through the CZ - except they were too long. So what I did was seat the projectiles of these reloads deeper so that they would fit in the Winchester mag. These rounds were very compressed and chronographed over 2200fps and kicked accordingly. I ended up regretfully selling this rifle as I needed the funds and it just wasn't being used. I can happily say though that I have kept track of it and it's still going strong and killing the hell out of big stuff up in Queensland. I regret selling that rifle...
After selling the Winchester there was a void in my life because I no longer owned a rifle that could kill an elephant... so I rectified that by buying a Zastava M70 with the Walnut stock. I bought this rifle from a gunshop in Queensland (who were very rude) and was informed that this rifle was on its second stock - having split the first one before a box of shells had been put through it. I was then again rudely informed that if the second stock split it was my problem. I bought it anyway as the price was right. I paid $700 for this rifle and straight away took it to Bob at Kudu Services again to get the stock strengthened, cross-bolted and to get a buffalo horn tip fitted. Bob took one look at the stock and in his usual blunt, to the point style said it was a waste of his time and my money doing that work as the stock was rubbish! He then went out the back and brought out a Hogue pillar bedded synthetic stock and said I was better off fitting that. I left the rifle with him to fit as the safety needed modifications. This rifle also taught me a valuable lesson to having to buy quality scopes for big-bore rifles - as it chewed through 3 before I finally bought a Leupold 2-7x33 which survived. I fed this rifle a reload consisting of the Woodleigh 480gn RNSP over 74gn of 2206H which delivered a spot-on 2150fps and cloverleafed 3 shots at 50m. This rifle was built on a budget and I have to say that it fed and ejected flawlessly from the start - no 'smithing was needed.
It was about this time that deer hunting became my passion and as good as the .458 was, it wasn't the ideal deer rifle. So I ended up trading the Zastava for a Weatherby Vanguard in .300Wby to a young guy who worked at a gunshop I frequent. Talking to the guys who work there, apparently he took it out once - with my reloads, fired some and promptly said 'stuff that' then sold it! Who would've thought that an elephant gun kicked??? But inevitably that void of not owning a .458 soon hit me, so I began the search for another one. My poor wife agreed with the one proviso this was to be my last .458... I was chatting to a friend who put me onto some leads, but when googling I found that Owen's guns in Queensland had some brand new. And for only $940. I quickly purchased one and I now owned my 5th and last .458. The first thing I needed to do was replace the stock as experience told me that this would be necessary. I put out the feelers on Australia's largest shooting/ hunting forum that I was after synthetic stock to suit a FN Mauser and straight away found another Hogue stock - but this one had the full aluminium bedding block, not just the pillars. After modifying the safety myself (a simple 5min job) the Hogue was fitted and it was awesome. Nice and stiff and free floated. After my learnt lesson with scopes last time, I straight away purchased a Leupold 1.5-4 in Leupold mounts/ rings. I was told by a big-bore expert that these mounts weren't up to scratch so they were replaced with Warne rings and mounts. Even though the 480gn Woodleighs performed perfectly I wanted to try something different with this rifle, so I purchased some 550gn Woodleigh RNSP. I contacted Geoff McDonald of Woodleigh and he said to try 73gn of BM2 (BENCHMARK) for around 2100fps. This I did and got a chronographed 2080fps in my rifle... pretty close! I got a total spread of 4 fps! Recoil was pretty noticeable (sucked) with this load but once again (and this is a familiar story) it did put bullets in the same hole at 50m. To be absolutely honest this load, in this rifle, calculated to 80ft/lbs and exceeded my recoil tolerance shooting off the bench. Off hand its unpleasant, but manageable... just. I haven't tried this load on game yet, but I think it's obvious that it'll be pretty effective putting out 5200ft/lbs of energy. I actually think that this latest Zastava might be my favourite. It just feels perfect in my hands and I love everything about it. This one's a keeper.
When I purchased my latest Zastava and went to purchase some factory ammo I found out that Winchester had stopped making it's cheap Super X stuff with the 510gn Powerpoint. Brass - when you could find it was expensive and this left me with a dilemma... what to feed it! I called around and luckily came across someone who had an unopened case of some .458 factory ammo... from the 80's! It was the white and orange box stuff and I wondered if it would still be ok? Well, not only was it ok it also was the fastest factory ammo I'd personally ever fired through a .458. Most factory stuff - even fired through a 25' barrel of a CZ, only reached around 1970fps, where this stuff was doing 2015fps. This was only 25fps less than the box said. It was also super consistent and super accurate (like all .458's are) once again putting 3 bullets in one hole at 50m. To be truthful I only bought this ammo to shoot off as quickly as possible so I could use the empties, but this ammo was so good, I used it for all my deer hunting for quite a while. I've only now just started using the 550's - but this stuff has proved to be great.
So there's my .458 story. I love the .458 and it is without a doubt my favourite round. All the horror stories you have heard or read are ancient history and the .458 is a simple round to load. It's also super accurate.
Hope I didn't bore you and thanks for reading!
Russ
550gn Woodleigh handload at just under 2100fps... When you absolutely, positively need to put something on it's bum!
2 factory Super X rounds that completely penetrated a big Gum tree at 50m... coz everyone knows the .458 doesn't penetrate...
480gn Woodleigh vs Fallow at 150m
Sambar taken with the .458 loaded with factory stuff
[img]https://i.imgur.com/xiXKP9h.jpg[/img] My first Red taken with the .458 in miserable conditions... also with factory ammo
Russ, Thanks for the article. This is the best reason to become a writer, to have the chance to help someone with a short cut, or help influence a decision to take that step into new cartridge territory. Because you took that step, we are all beneficiaries of your journey.
Yes indeed, great work in posting that by Sir Russ. No Lottite propaganda or fake news there ! Wonderful truth. I had gotten wind of it from Sir Woods and had read it at the other forum. I am sure glad Sir Russ did not make me beg him to post it here.
Great to hear Sir John has jumped on the wagon with Sir Larry in ordering some of the 404-g/.458 Shock Hammers. We won't be disappointed.
A little bit of "maths" tells me that a 1785 fps MV from a 1:10" twist when impacting a water trap at 25 yards will strike with the same spin rate and velocity as a bullet from a 1:14" twist at 2500 fps MV that impacts at 405 yards. Spin rate is about 2143 revolutions per second (RPS) = 128,580 RPM. Impact velocity is about 1743 fps. That would be a great test for a 400-yard killer.
I was able to do the Valentine's Day duty and fit in a trip to the range yesterday. It was a perfect "blue bird day," as a duck hunter would say. Calm and sunny and temps were 39 to 40 degrees F from start to end of shooting, finished about 90 minutes before sunset..
I have found a load to try at "shooting the diff" between 400-grainer and 403-grainer at 600 yards. This is with W-W brass having 94.4 grains gross H2O last time I checked:
80.0 grains of loose pour was about 100% LR at 3.480" COL with the Shock Hammer "404/.458." 81.0 grains with drop tube might be more efficient at 3.480" COL with the Shock Hammer in the W-W brass.
By comparison, the Hornady brass was 94.3 grains gross H2O and should be interchangeable for load data.
My lot of Norma brass is bigger at 98.8 grains H2O gross when checked same way as the W-W and Hornady methods.
To simplify and round to nearest grain of H20, when all brass is 2.500" long, 95 grains for W-W and Hornady 99 grains for Norma, my lot. The Norma manual claims 95 grains for their brass but might be for new, unfired, and shorter than 2.500" and/or might be a variation in lots over the years. I go by once-fired, not sized, and full 2.500" for my 95-grain simplification with the W-W and Hornady. BTW, that is the default case capacity assigned to the .458 WM by my QuickLOAD software, an old version. Discussion of R-P and Federal brass will be saved for later attempts at tedium along with the making of .458 WinMag brass from any belted case long enough, especially the .458 Lott. Heh heh.
Norma brass, same rifle, 39*F at start, 40*F at finish, all with "404"/.458, F-215, AA-2230
3.380" COL 78.0 gr >>> 2395 fps MV 80.0 gr >>> 2489 fps MV
3.480" COL 80.0 gr >>> 2425 fps MV 82.0 gr >>> 2496 fps MV 84.0 gr >>> 2545 fps MV
Compare to
Hornady Brass 3.480" COL 80.0 gr >>> 2479 fps MV at 48*F
W-W Brass 3.480" COL 80.0 gr >>> 2475 fps MV at 39*F 81.0 gr >>> 2517 fps MV at 39*F, charged with drop tube
I know it's apples and oranges. But with the Spruce King. 80 grains of 2230 gave me over 2400 fps with 400 gr Barnes X bullets and Barnes Originals. Both .032k and .049k jacketed. But the 32k gave higher pressures. But not horrible. I did drop my load to 78 grains of 2230. Which was still around 2380 fps . Measured with at least 2 different Shooters Chrony F1s at 18 to 20 feet. Now I know that barrel length is important. But SK's Shilen barrel is Fast COAL was 3.35 to 3.34 "
I dropped my load to78 gr before ( The Illumination) of the 458 Winchester happened. Tho I knew my rifle, I was still sadly influenced by the naysayers of The Great 458 Winchester Magnum. Likewise with the 300 grain X and TSX I easily got 2700 fps with IMR 4198.
Final report and photographs are pending from South Carolina, but for now, I have said this about preliminary report over at the B&M Forum:
Hip hip hooray! McCourry Institute of Ballistics comes through again. That is great news, if the shank is ending up beyond 20″ of the tough MIB test medium, with some massive trauma starting a few inches after impact. That is what I was hoping for, Doc M’s pronouncement of “buffalo capable.” A soft that is tough enough. The pictures of bullet shank and nose fragments should be very interesting, as well as the retained weight of the shank.
And no mention of veering so I assume the shanks stayed on a straight course?
High BC accurate low fouling and buffalo tough. What more could be asked of a 404-gr/.458 soft? If you need more penetration, back it up with an FN solid.
That was in response to this from Michael McCourry:
"It is going to be MONDAY at best before I can properly compile, photo, record data the way it should be done.
But I won’t keep you hanging that long without some clues…. now, I am going from memory and not referring to my notes……as they are tucked away with all the other gear right now.
OK, first 458 B&M ran the 400 Hammers at 2440 fps Or so, impact at 25 yards was 2350 or so…. Trauma began at around 3 inches, massive at 5-7 inches, and they started to slow up at that point. The “Petals”, they are not blades and do not radiate from center, they peel, break, and stay in the wound channel, being found anything from 7-8 up to 15+ inches inside the wound channel traveling with the remaining bullet. These were found at 22-23 inches. They lost some stability because instead of being flat across, they are somewhat rounded off on the edges…..All and all, they did very well, and are buffalo capable.
The 458 B&M EX is More of the Same. It seems we had shear at 2-3 inches, massive trauma from that point to around 7-8 inches, petals peeled, and on these two they peeled like two to three petals together. Petals were also found inside the wound channel from 8-17 inches. Trauma slows down at 8 inches or so, becoming a rounded off solid, found at 21-22 inches, as I recall. The velocity with the EX was 2608 fps and at 25 yard impact 2550 or so….
Photos, actual data, labels and what have you will have to wait until Monday……."
My further interpretation of the preliminary report above: The 2440 fps MV load penetrated about the same or an inch deeper than the 2608 fps MV load. 25-yard impact range for both, and impact velocity is not yet accurately defined above, should be about 50 fps less than MV for both. But the higher speed impact might have produced more massive wounding. The MIB test medium is wet pack of higher than first order resistance.
So, close to 2 feet of massive trauma with a 400-yard capable 400-gr Shock Hammer versus 5 to 6 feet of penetration with a 450-grain FN brass solid from CEB. That seems to cover all bases.
Did I mention that the Shock Hammer fouls way less than the Barnes TSX? Copper kind of fouling.
OK, Sir Spruce, you have a fast rifle for a 19.875" barrel length. Shilen must have done a good job on that one. The Spruce King magazine box and the one I have on my Alder Queen are the same. Get some 404-g/.458 Shock Hammers and set the COL at 3.380" with 79.0 grains of AA-2230 loaded with a drop tube. You can even single load them for special purpose use with a 3.480" COL and 81.0 grains of AA-2230, loaded with drop tube. Do so at your own risk. You will never want to shoot anything else.
So, close to 2 feet of massive trauma with a 400-yard capable 400-gr Shock Hammer versus 5 to 6 feet of penetration with a 450-grain FN brass solid from CEB. That seems to cover all bases.
Did I mention that the Shock Hammer fouls way less than the Barnes TSX? Copper kind of fouling.
Sir Ron, many thanks for pushing this Hammer bullet along. I am at ease now with the preliminary integrity/ penetration/ performance tests reported. It is a very good bullet. Finally an available, a plus .400 bc, 400 grain, .458 bullet that performs.
Edit to add: The prior tested .416 350 grain TSX penetration was 18” at 2387 fps impact velocity. This .416 TSX bullet is certainly no slouch at penetration. But, this fatter Hammer with a bit less sectional density and quite a bit more estimated BC surpassed it in penetration.
Great stuff Sir John and Sir Ron, do you guys know if anyone is set in stone on a date to actually try this bullet on a Cape Buffalo from the 458 WM+? if no more kung-flu BS arises i'll be headed to the little bush camp up on The Limpopo this fall, i haven't been shot in the arm for the plandemic, if travel requires it, i wont go.
OK, Sir Spruce, you have a fast rifle for a 19.875" barrel length. Shilen must have done a good job on that one. The Spruce King magazine box and the one I have on my Alder Queen are the same. Get some 404-g/.458 Shock Hammers and set the COL at 3.380" with 79.0 grains of AA-2230 loaded with a drop tube. You can even single load them for special purpose use with a 3.480" COL and 81.0 grains of AA-2230, loaded with drop tube. Do so at your own risk. You will never want to shoot anything else.
Spring is coming so I will be doing that. But will only load the 3.380 length because of my need to keep it simple. Very simple.
So, close to 2 feet of massive trauma with a 400-yard capable 400-gr Shock Hammer versus 5 to 6 feet of penetration with a 450-grain FN brass solid from CEB. That seems to cover all bases.
Did I mention that the Shock Hammer fouls way less than the Barnes TSX? Copper kind of fouling.
Sir Ron, many thanks for pushing this Hammer bullet along. I am at ease now with the preliminary integrity/ penetration/ performance tests reported. It is a very good bullet. Finally an available, a plus .400 bc, 400 grain, .458 bullet that performs.
Edit to add: The prior tested .416 350 grain TSX penetration was 18” at 2387 fps impact velocity. This .416 TSX bullet is certainly no slouch at penetration. But, this fatter Hammer with a bit less sectional density and quite a bit more estimated BC surpassed it in penetration.
I must have missed the +.400 BC part. I'll have to go do more reading.
How did the 4 naught 4 grain bullet weight come about on this Hammer bullet ?
That's what this forum is for, to inform you. All you have to do is read it.
That's GREAT.
Lots of info here seriously, so when you get a few minutes here and there, start at the beginning and it all comes together. Glad you like what you are seeing so far..........more to come as they say.
Sir Woods, Buy a donkey for that perfect straight shot to a Segway. The raw data and Doc M's interpretation of his findings will follow, with his permission, after the setup:
The McCourry Institute of Ballistics lab, here showing the lesser 25-yard impact range though capable of 50 yards:
Test media is newsprint, phonebooks, maybe some glossy magazines, by whatever consistent formula he uses, all soaked with water the night before and repeat-soaked on the morning of tests. He sometimes puts concrete blocks, 4x4 timbers, etc., into the media for, testing of solids for dinosaur hunting:
Doc M has a sense of humor too. Here is his setup for testing round nose solids:
1. Overall penetration of the remaining bullet, shank, or blunt trauma projectile, did not increase with additional velocity, at both impact velocities being roughly 200 fps difference, there really was no difference in penetration.
2. There was an increase of trauma with the higher impact velocity which would be expected.
3. The minor amount of instability at the end of penetration would be the result of the nose rounding off somewhat. And, it could also hinder depth of penetration as well, explaining why the increased velocity did not increase penetration. Remember a Solid becomes Front End Drive during terminals, and at this point it has become a solid.
Overall impression, from my standpoint, Sam may add something when he comes on, is that this is very typical copper type CNC machined bullet. Many of the Lehighs we worked with in 2006-2009 did exactly the same thing, pretty much, depending on velocity. Some of the Copper HP’s Dan did for Capo reacted exactly the same as these as well. Petals peel, break off and disperse along the length of the wound channel, main bullet either carrying them with it, or in some cases did not shear or peel until that point. From the massive and extreme trauma we saw at 3-7 inches, I would tend to believe we had shear at that point and the petals traveled with the main bullet. I do not believe they peeled along the way. There would be indications if that were the case.
There are no real issues with this mode of operation, and it can be devastating in the wound channel. I have shot buffalo with similar bullets and they hammered the tissue into submission. Personally I like the Raptor mode of operation better, and think that it does more outside damage to vessels and organ tissue outside the main wound channel, but the Hammer type bullet is way above conventional expanding bullets, and maybe a bit more destructive than an Expanding CPS… maybe between a Raptor and CPS would be a good place to be………
I would not hesitate to take the bullet for serious missions. As long as all other parameters where met, such as accuracy, pressures and blah blah blah………… This 400 Hammer is without doubt “Buffalo Capable”………………..Who would have considered that 15 years ago? Not me! But Bullet Tech has proven different. End quote of Sir Michael aka Doc M.
My hit and miss comments follow.
404-g Shock Hammer in .458 B&M at COL of 3.02", probably 18" barrel, maybe 20", probably 1:14 " twist, brass case length is 2.240", put a long-leade/WinMag throat on it and it becomes the .458 BMW:
404-g Shock Hammer in .458 B&M Express with 2.5" case length:
"Extreme trauma" was pictured above with the .458 B&M, about 3" wide wound in the wetpack. "Massive trauma" with nearly 200 fps faster velocity of .458 B&M Express was not pictured. It might have been bigger in diameter or wide wound might have extended a little further. It was not deeper in overall length, maybe an inch shorter with higher velocity. This shows the increased resistance of test medium with higher velocity. But speed still kills.
The stubby shanks retained only about 55%, but look to be CG-forward, and shorter projectiles are inherently more stable. Turning sideways at end of wound is a common event/non-event. Not quite an FN-boat-tailed solid remnant , but almost.
Comparison of the depth of penetration of this newcomer to some other known bullets is quite favorable for the Shock Hammer.
And BTW, apologies to Sir Larry who has been pushing copper WFN solid. That Lehigh 380-g/.458 copper WFN solid does feed well in all my .458 WM rifles, when I shortened the COL to 3.200″ instead of +3.300″. Sometimes just 0.1″ shorter COL makes a world of difference in feeding an FN solid. It feeds like poop through a goose in my .458 B&M at COL of 2.940″ which makes it a match for the .458 WM with COL of 3.200″.
Bless his heart, Doc M might even be thinking of testing that bullet for penetration too, and I am sure he could come up with ideas on improving the design. The best solid performance in MIB media is in the 5 to 6 feet of penetration range. That translates to about 8 feet or more of buffalo or elephant. The test media stops soft points much more quickly than FN solids, relatively speaking, just like critters. Round nose solids veer unpredictably, hence the joke about the angulation in the bullet trap, midway along, ha ha. Doc M refuses to test anymore of those!
To whom may wish to answer-- What is MIB media? Made In Boston?
I ask because I do not shoot bullets into inanimate media, but I do have a few stats on Elephant frontal brain shot penetration, Cape Buff lengthwise , and Water buff and Bison broad side penetration of NF, Kodiak, and Woodleigh Weldcore bullets at around 2100 fps.
I can not afford to waste good bullets on wads of wet paper, boards, cinder blocks, and oak trees.
I did shoot my .357 mag through a 6 inch oak tree once to show my son not to hide behind such fragile media.
Sir Ron, certainly no apology needed. I am glad you experimented with them. You have surpassed me on the seating depth fact finding mission. I wrote down “somewhere” the range of COAL that worked through my 458 Winchester Super Express. I need to organize all the 😳 paper towels😳 of information 😳. I am glad to hear that bullet will cycle for you.
I anticipate that wide meplat making an impression on what it hits. I hope the Professor of Bullet Technology is able to test it. I know that his testing is time consuming work and effort. My yard stick of measurement on it will be the 325 grain CEB BBW # 13.
I do not expect it to equal that #13, considering material & design. But, I am hoping a rather straight line penetration and a pretty good pathway of destruction from that WFN. At the least, I am hopeful for MIB “Alaska Capable” stamp of approval.
To whom may wish to answer-- What is MIB media? Made In Boston?
I ask because I do not shoot bullets into inanimate media, but I do have a few stats on Elephant frontal brain shot penetration, Cape Buff lengthwise , and Water buff and Bison broad side penetration of NF, Kodiak, and Woodleigh Weldcore bullets at around 2100 fps.
I can not afford to waste good bullets on wads of wet paper, boards, cinder blocks, and oak trees.
I did shoot my .357 mag through a 6 inch oak tree once to show my son not to hide behind such fragile media.
Thanks to whomever has the answer.
The info is in a few posts up, above the bullet pictures. McCourry Institute of Ballistics. Michael shot Literally Thousands of rounds of big bore ammo testing, and tweaking his bullet designs. He also shot several tractor trailer loads, if not train car loads of Cape and Australian Buffalo testing his bullet designs. Several beasts larger than Buffalo were also shot to field test and confirm design. I am sure he spent a shat-load of money and beaucoup time in bullet design. The man really should write a book.
Russ, we need to get some of these Hammer 400/404 grain bullets in your hands. You whack a lot of animals, and trace the bullet performance, an excellent source for bullet performance from big to small animals.
Someone, somewhere, in Australia ordered some of these to test out on Buffalo. That should be about the ultimate test, probably the same for those big scrub bulls.
Hey mate,
I'd love to test some! I don't have access to buffalo but Sambar, Fallow and Red deer are all on the cards!
Here is a story I wrote on another forum some time ago so I thought I'd post it here. It actually needs updating a bit as I wrote it a while ago now, but everything I wrote then I stand by now and I had fun writing it. I Hope it doesn't bore you all!
Hey guys,
I'm at home sick (not Covid!) and I'm bored so I thought I'd share my .458 journey with you all. I have personally owned 5 .458's over the years but my latest one is a keeper. Every time I've sold one I have ended up regretting it so I'm not selling this one!
My first .458 I bought after reading an article in Australian Shooters Journal magazine by John Woods. (AussieGunWriter) It was a CZ550 Safari Magnum with the hogsback stock. I fitted it with a Tasco 1-4x scope (hey, I didn't know any better at the time... but the scope survived!) and it was a nice rifle. It didn't feed that well but it was my introduction to big-bores. I fed this rifle a mixture of Winchester 510gn Super X ammo and some reloads consisting of the 300gn Sierra on top of a min load of AR2207 for a chronographed 2650fps. My intention was to originally ream this .458 to the .458LOTT - and I even got a quote for this job off a gunsmith, but when I found I was easily getting the velocity I was after out of the standard .458, I kept it as is, thus starting my love affair with the .458 Winchester. I owned this rifle for a while but I found that my reloads and factory ammo didn't feed through the mag that well, and instead of getting it fixed I eventually ended up selling the rifle... which I regretted.
The second .458 was also a CZ550 but with the American style stock. I spent a bit of coin on this rifle, sending it to the respected gunsmith/ gun maker Kudu Services in Melbourne for some custom touches. I had the fore-end shortened and a buffalo horn tip fitted for that safari look. Also has a couple of cross-bolts fitted and the action smoothed out as it wouldn't feed at all when first purchased. The barrel was shortened to 21" and a barrel-band sling swivel was added. It was topped with a Pentax 2.5 scope. This was a really nice looking rifle and was my introduction to hand loading long to suit the magnum sized magazine of the CZ. A very easy load of AR 2206H achieved a spot on 2150fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP through the 21" barrel. I ended up selling this rifle to a well known gun writer in Australia to fund my next .458 purchase... Looking at the photo's of this rifle I probably shouldn't have sold it...
My next .458 I purchased was a Winchester M70. This was a great rifle but before I owned it, it was apparently a bit of a lemon. I remember reading on forums about this actual rifle and how it had to be rectified to make it work satisfactory. So when I purchased it I felt like I knew it already. I fitted the same Pentax 2.5 scope to it and I fed this rifle the same loads I fed through the CZ - except they were too long. So what I did was seat the projectiles of these reloads deeper so that they would fit in the Winchester mag. These rounds were very compressed and chronographed over 2200fps and kicked accordingly. I ended up regretfully selling this rifle as I needed the funds and it just wasn't being used. I can happily say though that I have kept track of it and it's still going strong and killing the hell out of big stuff up in Queensland. I regret selling that rifle...
After selling the Winchester there was a void in my life because I no longer owned a rifle that could kill an elephant... so I rectified that by buying a Zastava M70 with the Walnut stock. I bought this rifle from a gunshop in Queensland (who were very rude) and was informed that this rifle was on its second stock - having split the first one before a box of shells had been put through it. I was then again rudely informed that if the second stock split it was my problem. I bought it anyway as the price was right. I paid $700 for this rifle and straight away took it to Bob at Kudu Services again to get the stock strengthened, cross-bolted and to get a buffalo horn tip fitted. Bob took one look at the stock and in his usual blunt, to the point style said it was a waste of his time and my money doing that work as the stock was rubbish! He then went out the back and brought out a Hogue pillar bedded synthetic stock and said I was better off fitting that. I left the rifle with him to fit as the safety needed modifications. This rifle also taught me a valuable lesson to having to buy quality scopes for big-bore rifles - as it chewed through 3 before I finally bought a Leupold 2-7x33 which survived. I fed this rifle a reload consisting of the Woodleigh 480gn RNSP over 74gn of 2206H which delivered a spot-on 2150fps and cloverleafed 3 shots at 50m. This rifle was built on a budget and I have to say that it fed and ejected flawlessly from the start - no 'smithing was needed.
It was about this time that deer hunting became my passion and as good as the .458 was, it wasn't the ideal deer rifle. So I ended up trading the Zastava for a Weatherby Vanguard in .300Wby to a young guy who worked at a gunshop I frequent. Talking to the guys who work there, apparently he took it out once - with my reloads, fired some and promptly said 'stuff that' then sold it! Who would've thought that an elephant gun kicked??? But inevitably that void of not owning a .458 soon hit me, so I began the search for another one. My poor wife agreed with the one proviso this was to be my last .458... I was chatting to a friend who put me onto some leads, but when googling I found that Owen's guns in Queensland had some brand new. And for only $940. I quickly purchased one and I now owned my 5th and last .458. The first thing I needed to do was replace the stock as experience told me that this would be necessary. I put out the feelers on Australia's largest shooting/ hunting forum that I was after synthetic stock to suit a FN Mauser and straight away found another Hogue stock - but this one had the full aluminium bedding block, not just the pillars. After modifying the safety myself (a simple 5min job) the Hogue was fitted and it was awesome. Nice and stiff and free floated. After my learnt lesson with scopes last time, I straight away purchased a Leupold 1.5-4 in Leupold mounts/ rings. I was told by a big-bore expert that these mounts weren't up to scratch so they were replaced with Warne rings and mounts. Even though the 480gn Woodleighs performed perfectly I wanted to try something different with this rifle, so I purchased some 550gn Woodleigh RNSP. I contacted Geoff McDonald of Woodleigh and he said to try 73gn of BM2 (BENCHMARK) for around 2100fps. This I did and got a chronographed 2080fps in my rifle... pretty close! I got a total spread of 4 fps! Recoil was pretty noticeable (sucked) with this load but once again (and this is a familiar story) it did put bullets in the same hole at 50m. To be absolutely honest this load, in this rifle, calculated to 80ft/lbs and exceeded my recoil tolerance shooting off the bench. Off hand its unpleasant, but manageable... just. I haven't tried this load on game yet, but I think it's obvious that it'll be pretty effective putting out 5200ft/lbs of energy. I actually think that this latest Zastava might be my favourite. It just feels perfect in my hands and I love everything about it. This one's a keeper.
When I purchased my latest Zastava and went to purchase some factory ammo I found out that Winchester had stopped making it's cheap Super X stuff with the 510gn Powerpoint. Brass - when you could find it was expensive and this left me with a dilemma... what to feed it! I called around and luckily came across someone who had an unopened case of some .458 factory ammo... from the 80's! It was the white and orange box stuff and I wondered if it would still be ok? Well, not only was it ok it also was the fastest factory ammo I'd personally ever fired through a .458. Most factory stuff - even fired through a 25' barrel of a CZ, only reached around 1970fps, where this stuff was doing 2015fps. This was only 25fps less than the box said. It was also super consistent and super accurate (like all .458's are) once again putting 3 bullets in one hole at 50m. To be truthful I only bought this ammo to shoot off as quickly as possible so I could use the empties, but this ammo was so good, I used it for all my deer hunting for quite a while. I've only now just started using the 550's - but this stuff has proved to be great.
So there's my .458 story. I love the .458 and it is without a doubt my favourite round. All the horror stories you have heard or read are ancient history and the .458 is a simple round to load. It's also super accurate.
Hope I didn't bore you and thanks for reading!
Russ
550gn Woodleigh handload at just under 2100fps... When you absolutely, positively need to put something on it's bum!
2 factory Super X rounds that completely penetrated a big Gum tree at 50m... coz everyone knows the .458 doesn't penetrate...
480gn Woodleigh vs Fallow at 150m
Sambar taken with the .458 loaded with factory stuff
[img]https://i.imgur.com/xiXKP9h.jpg[/img] My first Red taken with the .458 in miserable conditions... also with factory ammo
Russ, Thanks for the article. This is the best reason to become a writer, to have the chance to help someone with a short cut, or help influence a decision to take that step into new cartridge territory. Because you took that step, we are all beneficiaries of your journey.
John
Thank you John,
What a great reply and I appreciate you writing that. Yes, I'm glad I took the plunge with the .458 - and have never regretted it. And if I can ever help anyone with my little hunting/ shooting adventures, it just makes everything worth it.
Much to appreciate in that testing Sirs. Are they plans for 1500 fps'ish impact speed testing? If we have a 400 yard bullet, we would love to see what Terminal looks like out there. My bet is just fine.
I've worked on a ballistic profile for that bullet to 400 yards, with the following assumptions: 404gr, SD = .275, BC = .422, MV = 2550 fps. Environment: moose hunting this region in the fall 38*F, RH = 60%, Elevation 1200 ft.
At 400 yards = 1828 fps/ 2997 ft-lbs/ TE = 110 (Sir Ron's formula X 100 to make it very close to mine) compared to a 180gr at 2700 fps MV from a .30-06 = 40 TE at 300 yards (enough for an approximate 1000 lb moose at 2000 ft-lbs. Ballistics recommended by a professional at the MNR of Ontario for would-be moose hunters.)
As Sir Ron would say: "Close enough for horseshoes".
One mentioned earlier by Sir Larry, the 350-g/.416 TSX at similar velocity to the .458 B&M:
18" versus 22".
The 404-g/.458 beat it by 4". That would be about 8" or more of greater penetration of critter.
That pic resembles the 350 TSX, .458" I shot into 15.5" of tough media. MV was 2470 fps from my Ruger #1 in .45-70 LT, impact at 5 yards = 2457/ 4693 ft-lbs. It was stopped by the last cardboard panel of the box at 15.5" penetration, and retained 100% weight, with all four petals intact (looking about identical to the pic above, only a bit wider and slightly shorter being a .458" instead of a .416". However, the BC given by Barnes is only .278. My tests gave it at least .338.
Thanks for that Bob. I'll start it at 2400 fps your elevation and humidity are quite close to what we have here during moose season. Often time same temp also.
Buy a donkey for taking care of Sir Charles who surely was joking or drunk on something. Sir "Doc M" Michael, tycoon of South Carolina has more money and a bigger game bag than any dozen of us put together. He has been seriously at the business of "love of knowledge" for a long time. As evidence of his wisdom, here is the PhD he was awarded long ago, and he is still at it, on the cutting edge of bulletology.
That Lehigh 380-gr/.458 copper WFN is now my preferred bullet for herd shooting zombies. I bet if you get a dozen zombies' heads in a line, it will be more spectacular than shooting into a watermelon truck.
If we have a 400 yard bullet, we would love to see what Terminal looks like out there. My bet is just fine.
Sir Dennis, I think the simple water bucket test will do for that. I will use the 19.75"-barreled, 1:10" twist .458 BMW slow and low yardage to mimic the .458 WM at long range. Then maybe I can set up a water trap at 400 yards for the 1:14" twist started off at 2500 fps, Freezing rain here tonight. Creeks gotta go down and the mud needs to firm up a bit to truck into the artillery test range.
I'm amazed at the way these petal shed but penetrate and produce larger wound channels than traditional lead core expanding or even TSX or TTSX bullets. . The petals shedders in lighter weight penetrate deeper and leave larger wound channels, than traditional bullets. Amazing
I'm amazed at the way these petal shed but penetrate and produce larger wound channels than traditional lead core expanding or even TSX or TTSX buts . The petals shedders in lighter weight peneyrate deeper and leave larger wound channels. Amazing
Cant wait to see/read what it does on truly heavy game [read Cape Buffalo] it's going to have to be a World Star to better the 450gr TSX at 2463 fps from my 458 WM+
I'm amazed at the way these petal shed but penetrate and produce larger wound channels than traditional lead core expanding or even TSX or TTSX buts . The petals shedders in lighter weight peneyrate deeper and leave larger wound channels. Amazing
Cant wait to see/read what it does on truly heavy game [read Cape Buffalo] it's going to have to be a World Star to better the 450gr TSX at 2463 fps from my 458 WM+
I have some 416 Shock Hammer bullets and Micheal458 AKA MIB said that they will out penetrste the 350 grain TSX
I'm amazed at the way these petal shed but penetrate and produce larger wound channels than traditional lead core expanding or even TSX or TTSX buts . The petals shedders in lighter weight peneyrate deeper and leave larger wound channels. Amazing
Cant wait to see/read what it does on truly heavy game [read Cape Buffalo] it's going to have to be a World Star to better the 450gr TSX at 2463 fps from my 458 WM+
I have some 416 Shock Hammer bullets and Micheal458 AKA MIB said that they will out penetrste the 350 grain TSX
Good to know and comparing apples and oranges i know, but a .585" 750gr TSX from my 577 Nitro double at only 2076 fps went into a Tanzanian Cape Buffalo at last left side rib at 16 yards to be found as a lump under the hide on the front of the right shoulder, at the shot the bull collapsed and began his death bellow as i moved quickly left to give him a solid through both shoulders.
If the 400/403gr Hammers will do that as i believe the 450gr TSX's most certainly will you guys will have a truly amazing projectile.
I'm amazed at the way these petal shed but penetrate and produce larger wound channels than traditional lead core expanding or even TSX or TTSX buts . The petals shedders in lighter weight peneyrate deeper and leave larger wound channels. Amazing
Cant wait to see/read what it does on truly heavy game [read Cape Buffalo] it's going to have to be a World Star to better the 450gr TSX at 2463 fps from my 458 WM+
I have some 416 Shock Hammer bullets and Micheal458 AKA MIB said that they will out penetrste the 350 grain TSX
Good to know and comparing apples and oranges i know, but a .585" 750gr TSX from my 577 Nitro double at only 2076 fps went into a Tanzanian Cape Buffalo at last left side rib at 16 yards to be found as a lump under the hide on the front of the right shoulder, at the shot the bull collapsed and began his death bellow as i moved quickly left to give him a solid through both shoulders.
If the 400/403gr Hammers will do that as i believe the 450gr TSX's most certainly will you guys will have a truly amazing projectile.
Sir Jerry, I have trailed Doc M's ".458 Terminals" thread and found no 450-gr/.458 TSX testing. Maybe someday he will get big-bored enough to do it. I would be happy to supply him with both 450-gr and 500-gr TSX bullets and see if he would do them at the velocities that the .458 WM+ is capable of. He has a .458 B&M EX ("Express/Extra") that would be able to equal the mighty .458 WM+ most likely, without having to re-throat it, heh heh. I will offer to supply the bullets to him and suggest ~2400 fps for the 450-grainer and ~2300 fps for the 500-grainer, close enough to your loads:
The 400-gr Shock Hammer might be for us with less chest hair than the 450-gr TSX shooters of the .458 WM+. Both bullets will gitterdunn. I'll post the above picture at his forum, if allowed, to try egging him on.
so i think hornady, speer, sierra should make a regular 400 grain spitzer cup and core bullet for north american game!
That would be nice. If anything to have as a less expensive bullet to practice with.
Yes wouldn't that be nice. I am going to do a preliminary ladder of H4895, using up the old Speer 400-gr FNSP and Barnes Original SSSP 400-grainers. Thus, allowing to zero in on the lower velocity loads, then repeat with Shock Hammers. Save pennies. The .458 BMW (10" twist) at low MV and close range water trap will get a chance to imitate the .458 WM+ (14" twist) at high MV and long range.
Here's hoping he will dissect the loads and report on his findings. Then send the empties to me. That stuff looks old enough to have been from a time when the Democrat Party voters infiltrated the ammo factory to sabotage the loads, like they try to do to the USA at every turn. Might have pulled the bullets and squirted glue into the loose powder before finger-seating the bullets.
After his pronouncements on the 404/.458 SH, Doc M said:
With that said, I want to take you “Back In Time”, to a day when CNC bullets were in their infancy and we did not have a full understanding of how things worked just yet……….. And, this is directly connected to the tests with the Hammers above……….
This is one of our very early attempts at getting a proper .500 caliber bullet for buffalo. These bullets were made by David Fricke (Early Lehigh Beginnings) at my request through JD at the time. Very nice Copper, RN Hollow Point. This test was conducted in 2009, and I also used this bullet on a bunch of Australian Buffalo in 2009 with our very own Paul Truccolo. It was also the very first outing for the 500 MDM. I used this 470 gr Bullet, backed up with the 510 Solids. I had very serious concerns about the low SD and if these bullets were going to get me in a bind for penetration…..??? I mean a 470 gr .500 caliber bullet, SD of only .269 and everyone knows you have to have a minimum of .300 SD for buffalo, Right?…… :unsure: ……….. Well, test works showed pretty good? Should I trust the Test? Crap?????
After just slamming hell out of the first buffalo, bullets exiting right, left, front and ass, all those concerns about SD and penetration and effectiveness floated away like smoke floating in the air…………..After slamming another 13 buffalo with the 500 MDM and the results the same, we began to understand…………………..
Tell me Guys……. Does this look even vaguely familiar to anything you might have seen “Lately”……………. :unsure:
And another test using our new at the time Witness Cards (I am sure Ron Remembers these)………
Pay attention to where the “Petals” were found…………Take note of the “rounded edge” of the remaining bullet, although found nose forward with these, possibly a function of caliber? I don’t know…..but anyway….
Yep, Been there, got the T-Shirt…… This ain’t my first Rodeo……… LOL
More from Sir "Doc M" Michael 's back and forth at B&M Forum:
Expanding, Trauma Inflicting, NonCon, Raptors, Hammers, what have you…………
Lets take the example of 400 Swift or North Fork, or Premium Expanding bullet and look at Sectional Density Lets also take the example of our Recent 400 Hammer and look at Sectional Density…..
Wait a minute both have the same Sectional Density…… .272 Right?
Yes, But what happens AFTER Terminal Penetration Starts?
Sectional Density Changes…….. After 2 inches or so of penetration, all these bullets (not solids) change SD, they Expand, and or shear blades and or petals…… SD is changing…………..
400 Expanding Premium may expand to a diameter of .750….. it will still weigh 400 gr however, if it holds together, Swift and North Fork will.
Now the SD of that bullet is .102
The Hammer, sheds petals and is now a 220 gr .458 caliber solid…… it now has an SD of .150
SD changes with Trauma Inflicting bullets and or Expanding Premiums During Terminal Penetration……………..
My comments from the peanut gallery:
Brilliant illustration by Doc M. Static sectional density does not mean a thing when a bullet is stationary. It matters when it is flying through the air because its product with a form factor = BC. It matters at getting a conventional bullet to expand on impact as it drives expansion. After impact Static SD is gone for an expanding bullet, replaced by Dynamic SD inside the impact medium. Then new rules apply, mainly nose shape and retained velocity rules, not so much emphasis on retained weight of the shank. And boy oh boy do those light FN solids at high velocity prove that !
Sir Ron, I like the fact that the petals go with the shank. Micheal458 and Sam like the Raptors where the petals radiate outward. What is your preference?
so i think hornady, speer, sierra should make a regular 400 grain spitzer cup and core bullet for north american game!
I've contacted Hornady several times for such a bullet in 400gr spitzer/.458 with the RP nose, similar to their 286gr in 9.3 mm.
No response yet! I'm thinking they believe their 350gr RN and FP are adequate. But they are too short and blunt for adequate effect on large game beyond 200 - 250 yards. I would like to see something from Hornady, as the largest supplier in these parts import a lot from Hornady - in fact more than from any other US bullet manufacturer. In any shop one can find Hornady bullets. Barnes would be second. But the TSX's and Noslers are becoming almost prohibitive in costs for the average handloader!
Bob, WRT your statement that .458 350 grain bullets are too short and blunt for big game beyond 200-250 yards, do you also apply this to the North Fork 350 SS bullets? Have you seen or tested these NF 350 SS bullets? If not, take a look: https://www.northforkbullets.com/Our-bullets/Bullet-type/
Bob, WRT your statement that .458 350 grain bullets are too short and blunt for big game beyond 200-250 yards, do you also apply this to the North Fork 350 SS bullets? Have you seen or tested these NF 350 SS bullets? If not, take a look: https://www.northforkbullets.com/Our-bullets/Bullet-type/
Asking for a friend.
Does he have NF bullets of 350gr/.458 in hand?
My concern was regarding the 350gr RN and FP from Hornady with their very poor shape for ranges beyond about 200 - 250 yards. Their BCs are .189 (RN) and .195 (FP) which means they lose over 700 fps within the first 150 yards!! When started at 2500 fps they are around 1350 fps at 300 yards - not close enough for any expansion! Some tests in media by Michael McCourry show no expansion at 1600 fps, but starting expansion at 1800 fps, which would be around 150 yards when started at 2500 fps MV.
I was looking for something in 400gr with a spire/spitzer nose and a BC of about .400. We now have that in the 404 Hammer bullet, but those are very costly and will not be available in Canada for some time - if ever! Hornady bullets are common here, but Hornady doesn't make a 400gr SPRP in .458.
On the NF site they show three 350gr in .458 without any details of BC. So I have to assume a couple are solids (CPS and FP), and the other a semi-spitzer soft-point. The latter would be my choice of those for general hunting. But, I expect the 350 TSX to work as well - which I have in stock.
My response was to the poster who suggested a common cup-n- core in 400gr from Hornady, Speer or Sierra might satisfy a need for such a bullet in North America. What is the BC of that 350gr NF SS? When the 350 TSX is started at 2780 fps from my Ruger #1H, it's barely making 1600 fps at 400 yards - is that enough for expansion? I don't know. But on a black bear hit frontally at an impact velocity of about 2450 fps there was no evidence of bullet expansion. That bear went the farthest of any I've killed.
Bob asked "Does he have NF bullets of 350gr/.458 in hand?" Yes, and I do too.
I am shooting them in my 1886 45-90 and will shoot them in my Beretta 45-90 DR when it comes back from gunmaker. The DR was regulated with them.
I have shot them in 45-70 at rifle range and found them accurate at 100 yards. I have not shot them at game at 200+ yards, but I rarely shoot any game at that range with any rifle. With my .308, I shot a Mule deer at 300 yards and a white tail at 400 yards; my only two long shots ever!.
I just thought that you might like to test them at long range for your own use.
Sir Ron, I like the fact that the petals go with the shank. Micheal458 and Sam like the Raptors where the petals radiate outward. What is your preference?
Sir John, I think you have shown the secondary missile effects from photos of game dead by Shock Hammer. Seems to be working some mayhem. Maybe it is media dependent with the wetpack of MIB if they are not radiating outward like brass does. But the brass is brittle by comparison and blows off sooner, when the radial force vector might be greater at shallower depth. I am not sweating it. It does the job. From your post on the "Hammers": quote=jwp475: ".458 404 grain Shock Hammer. .416 300 grain Shock Hammer and .358 220 grain Hammer Hunter "
... and my comments there: ... that is a nice sample of Hammers, adequate to drive any spike. The view shows the .416 and .338 hollow point edges are a bit sharp, compared to the .458. Gives me the idea that a simple chamfering inside the .458 hollow point might make it more delicate for low velocity expansion. That would be easy to do with excellent concentricity and only a 0.1 grain weight change at each sharpening.. The "404-g/.458" of 403 grains actual (without the oil in the nose hole) would still be over 402 grains, no sweat. Petals might blow off sooner and have a greater tendency to radiate at shallower depth like brass.
The copper 404-g/.458 weighs 403 grains and is 1.440" long. Make it out of brass and it would weigh 394 grains. My maths tell me that it would need to be lengthened in the full bearing base section below the last PDR band by only 0.028" to weigh an actual 404 grains. 404-g/.458 "Brass Hammer" BOL = 1.468". LOL
I plan on trying the 404 Shock Hammer at 1700 to 1800 fps first, for low velocity expansion. If it won't expand at 1500 fps impact with water, will try the chamfer sharpening of the HP edge.
Doc M of MIB has done a priceless service in testing the 404 Shock Hammer. I do not expect he has anymore interest in the TSX bullets. But I do ! I will be taking the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo out of pasture to ride again.
First for a calibration run to compare to the MIB score of the 404-g Shock Hammer with high BC. Then a ride with the 450-gr and 500-gr TSX bullets. I want to see if the 500-gr TSX goes squirrely, and see if the 450-gr TSX goes deeper than the Shock Hammer. Compare it to the 402-gr/.458-cal "90%" retaining Shock Hammer of low BC also.
SirRon I look forward to your further testing with the Hammer bullet and the TSX. Obviously moose are not Cape or Australian / Asian buffalo. But, I have been very pleased with the 225gr TSX in .338, the 270gr TSX in .375, and the 350gr TSX in .416. Plenty good, plenty dead pretty damn quick, most like near instantly. I am sure I would have been pleased with the 400gr TSX, particularly if the BC was close to .400. The Hammer 404 fills that void and appears to perform stellar, particularly for my purposes. I am interested in the 450gr TSX performance and will not be surprised if it does not outperform the 500 grainer.
so i think hornady, speer, sierra should make a regular 400 grain spitzer cup and core bullet for north american game!
That would be nice. If anything to have as a less expensive bullet to practice with.
Yes wouldn't that be nice. I am going to do a preliminary ladder of H4895, using up the old Speer 400-gr FNSP and Barnes Original SSSP 400-grainers. Thus, allowing to zero in on the lower velocity loads, then repeat with Shock Hammers. Save pennies. The .458 BMW (10" twist) at low MV and close range water trap will get a chance to imitate the .458 WM+ (14" twist) at high MV and long range.
You bet Men, Speer could make a pointy hot-cor of bonded/fusion type bullet for cheap, a b.c. of .4 would be icing ; ]
I'm amazed at the way these petal shed but penetrate and produce larger wound channels than traditional lead core expanding or even TSX or TTSX buts . The petals shedders in lighter weight peneyrate deeper and leave larger wound channels. Amazing
Cant wait to see/read what it does on truly heavy game [read Cape Buffalo] it's going to have to be a World Star to better the 450gr TSX at 2463 fps from my 458 WM+
I have some 416 Shock Hammer bullets and Micheal458 AKA MIB said that they will out penetrste the 350 grain TSX
Good to know and comparing apples and oranges i know, but a .585" 750gr TSX from my 577 Nitro double at only 2076 fps went into a Tanzanian Cape Buffalo at last left side rib at 16 yards to be found as a lump under the hide on the front of the right shoulder, at the shot the bull collapsed and began his death bellow as i moved quickly left to give him a solid through both shoulders.
If the 400/403gr Hammers will do that as i believe the 450gr TSX's most certainly will you guys will have a truly amazing projectile.
Sir Jerry, I have trailed Doc M's ".458 Terminals" thread and found no 450-gr/.458 TSX testing. Maybe someday he will get big-bored enough to do it. I would be happy to supply him with both 450-gr and 500-gr TSX bullets and see if he would do them at the velocities that the .458 WM+ is capable of. He has a .458 B&M EX ("Express/Extra") that would be able to equal the mighty .458 WM+ most likely, without having to re-throat it, heh heh. I will offer to supply the bullets to him and suggest ~2400 fps for the 450-grainer and ~2300 fps for the 500-grainer, close enough to your loads:
The 400-gr Shock Hammer might be for us with less chest hair than the 450-gr TSX shooters of the .458 WM+. Both bullets will gitterdunn. I'll post the above picture at his forum, if allowed, to try egging him on.
LOL, Thanks Sir Ron, maybe he can get the velocity if he has case/mag box length to work with, a throat drilling would be most definitely out of the question i'll bet, i got my contract in the mail yesterday for Buffalo up on The Limpopo, if i dont hear different, there's a big buff up there somewhere that's going to meet a 450gr TSX at 2400+ fps, will be a fun hunt and test, i hired a video guy too, so we'll have some movies to watch.
My bad, "IWBB" pictured above had typo in caption. I meant to say "IWBE" with three boards per compartment. That is the Iron WaterBoard Elephant for testing FN solids from a 50 BMG.
I will use IWBE in testing the 500-gr TBSS at +2300 fps MV as per Sir Jerry's load for .458 WM+. Then, of course, I will cut that bullet down to 400 grains and test it at +2500 fps, in the IWBE, expecting the 500-gr TBSS to go deeper, I just gots to know by how much.
IWBB with one board per water bucket works for softs. IWBB with two boards per water bucket works for most FN solids. Might require IWBE with three boards per water bucket for the .458 WM+ with 500-gr TBSS FN. And I might eventually get to a .510/570-gr or 600-gr FN solid from my 50 BMG just for fun.
has some great reading regarding advantages of the .458 WM over lesser cartridges, meaning every other cartridge in the world. Sprinkled with some interesting load data too, from 250-grainer to 600-grainer. Light bulbs switched on in my head while I was reading that. His data is now my data.
This is not to say that all other calibers are useless. They are just not as useful as the .458 WM. Even Selous liked a 6.5mm aka .256 or .264, all of which are pretty much same-same. But he always kept some sort of .45/.46 bore soon as he gave up the 4-bore for nervous condition reasons.
Fanciful imitations of Selous' final .256 Mannlicher and 450 NE combo:
The 404-g/.458-cal Shock Hammer Varmint bullet (or Sheep Hippo Varmint bullet) makes the two rifle battery obsolete. Now you only need one rifle. The Selous Combo might now become a combo of one rifle (.458 WM) and two bullets: 404g/.458 SHV and whatever solid will do the job.
Listened to the state of dis-union address tonight. Memorable quotes: "... can't build a wall high enough to keep out a vaccine .." "... millions of nations ..." are unified in support of Ukraine against Russia. Applause erupted from Democrats many times during said speech. Spotted this on the internet after the speech:
It was not a solid speech to say the least. Speaking of solids, similar to Sir Jerry's "Selous Combo" pairing of the 450-gr TSX to the 500-gr TBSS, I reckon the 450-gr brass FN is best for coupling with the 404g Shock Hammer
I have no use for the 500-gr Nosler brass FN solid other than to cut it down to 400-grains That is the bullet best for "wasting" by cutting off the base to make a 400-gr brass FN,
And yeah, the State of the Union was such a friggin farce. He is a scumbag of the first order.
Didn't watch, if i want similar, i can always walk out the back yard gate and sleep on my belly face down in a fresh pile of usurping grand larceny BULLCHIT!
And yeah, the State of the Union was such a friggin farce. He is a scumbag of the first order.
Didn't watch, if i want similar, i can always walk out the back yard gate and sleep on my belly face down in a fresh pile of usurping grand larceny BULLCHIT!
And yeah, the State of the Union was such a friggin farce. He is a scumbag of the first order.
Didn't watch, if i want similar, i can always walk out the back yard gate and sleep on my belly face down in a fresh pile of usurping grand larceny BULLCHIT!
You’d have slept better than me as well Gunner.
You bet Big Buddy, they broke something in my head with the greatest theft in the history of the world, i trust no dept/agency/office anymore, and no longer a friend to any.
The distrust of the government has to be pretty high.
It’s tough being a minority these days with a job and paying taxes into the system. I believe there are a lot more voters who probably depend on our taxes for the handout than we even realize.
Diesel is nearly 4.00 a gallon right now. That just sets me off a bit more as well
I would agree Sir Ron on cutting the 500 Nosler Solid down to 400 grains. Paired up in the shell belt with the 404 SH, a magnificent 458WM swinging along in the hand, we can go forth and harvest anything, anywhere. If the Barnes 450 banded solid was still available that would work nicely too.
Sir Dennis, You have described Selous Combo #8. That would be for a stock standard factory .458 WinMag. 400-gr brass FN loaded to 3.340" COL @ 2400 fps MV in a 24" barrel for charge stopper, plus the 404g Shock Hammer at 2400 to 2500 fps and COL of 3.280" to 3.480" for Sheep, Hippo and Varmints. The longer COL will single-shot load. Two rifles in one. A magazine repeater and a single shot.
Lots to do. Sir Tony's red & yellow box WINCHESTER SUPER SPEED .458 WinMag ammo (500 gr FMJ) shall be fired through the chrono and dissected for posterity. The Iron WaterBoard Buffalo will be saddled up again. 500-gr brass FN bullets shall be cut down to 400-grainers, etc.
But first I have to attend to funeral affairs for a few days. Wife's Mother, my MIL, passed on at age 94, yesterday, I spent most of the day yesterday with my Mother getting a stent placed in one of her renal arteries. Much Old Lady business to attend to. None of us would be here without them. In a few days I will be back with a vengeance for Lottites and Democrats.
Thank you all, Kind Sirs of the .458 Brotherhood. It appears that my dearly beloved 94 y.o. Mother-In-Law died sooner than she should have, and suffered terribly due to a stupid medication error by a doctor who claimed he had never done such in 36 years in practice. I am recommending lawyering up, because I surely would not have skated on something like that while I was practicing. My wife was planning to spend a couple of weeks with her Mother starting just three days before it happened. She has been robbed. It was a tear jerker all around. She is still in Florida, but I am back with a vengeance, for MIL and the .458 WinMag.
The ammo that Sir Tony contributed to this trail was produced when MIL was 30 years old, and my wife was 8 months old. I examined it and fired 5 rounds of it at the range today. Excellent findings for +64 y.o. factory ammo. I also had on hand some 38 y.o. and 26 y.o. factory ammo for the .458 WM, all from W-W. The oldest stuff was best, and thanks again to Sir Tony for keeping it well preserved. If I can find a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle I'll get it to him, or I might settle for something cheaper, if he will. LOL.
No caking of powders, no loose bullets glued into the case necks. Primer sealant debris on the 1983 stuff is very peculiar. Sumbuddy who know what that could be ? Democrat Party boogers is all I can call it.
The rifle was The Alder Queen, Alderella Ruger-Shilen, M77 MK II with old Nikon SlugHunter scope with BDC reticle. She was left as sighted for dead on at 100 yards with the Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX at about 2350 fps, 25" barrel. Same as what killed the pedophile buck chasing the tiny doe this past deer season here. The targets below were at 50 yards.
Spotted at a gun show, 7 rifles purchased from a widow in Michigan. The deceased was related to the original Hoffman of Hoffman Arms, who employed James Howe, who made the original 400 Whelen in 1923 for Townie, as well as Elmer Keith's 400 Whelen in 1924. The very interesting fellow wearing the ostrich boots said he bought all seven of these rifles from the widow for $50,000.00, yes, 50K bucks. He will be showing them in Tulsa on April 2, 2022.
That 6.5 M-S reminds me of two more Selous Combos. One rifle two loads, why carry two rifles when a single .458 WM will do it all, from varmints and sheep to hippopotami:
As a stress reliever on the funeral trip to Florida, I sat in the hotel one night while wife was in the shower, and drew a bullet on a scrap of Holiday Inn Express note paper. I may not get to be a commercial pilot by staying the night there, but now I am a bullet designer !
A reference on copper and brass 450-gr/.458 FN solids:
Concept done on graph paper after I got home, here is a cutie that looks a lot like Sir Saint Bill Bagwell's PH hardcast of 475 to 480 grains in .458" diameter for BPCR ("Smoke Over Africa"). That killer-diller at 1300 fps was 1.22" long and had seven grease grooves on it, and a flat nose and base. My concept in copper could be exactly 400 grains and travel at 2500 fps, BOL 1.200"
The basic shape is the base frustrum of a right circular cone with 26-degree cone angle, 0.240" height, 0.458" base diameter, sitting on top of a right circular cylinder of 0.458" diameter and 0.960" height.
That basic shape in copper of specific gravity about 8.9 would weigh about 424 grains, I SWAG. After whittling away the Hammer PDR bands/grooves X 7 along the sides and radius-beveling the nose down to 0.300" meplat diameter (about 65.5% of caliber) and rounding the flat base edge, if anymore reduction in weight is needed to get 400-grains exactly: A tiny hollow in the base. This would work in the .45-70 Gov't. lever action with .458" groove and any other .458-cal rifle I know of. "405-g" would be OK too if a catchier number than plain vanilla "400-g" is desired. 400 grains or 405 grains, since 402 and 404 are already taken by Hammer .458 bullets.
This basically copies the BBW#13 FN solid nose shape of Sam Rose, Sir Michael "Doc M" McCourry, CEB, and North Fork. But with the PDR bands, I think the "nose projection" issue is a non-issue since with the low drag bands of Hammer Bullets, the whole length of the bullet becomes "nose projection." About 0.600" minimum of nose projection ahead of the "high drag" CEB bands is recommended for best penetration. How about twice that amount using PDR bands ?
I have used brass and copper solids and they both shoot through most anything, including 5/8 inch steel plates. For short cartridges, I prefer the brass Punch bullet with lead filled base. Otherwise, NF Copper has done well from my rifles.
Good news is that there are plenty of very good bullet deigns from which to choose.
Recovery of these bullets from dead game has become rare.
Thank you all, Kind Sirs of the .458 Brotherhood. It appears that my dearly beloved 94 y.o. Mother-In-Law died sooner than she should have, and suffered terribly due to a stupid medication error by a doctor who claimed he had never done such in 36 years in practice. I am recommending lawyering up, because I surely would not have skated on something like that while I was practicing. My wife was planning to spend a couple of weeks with her Mother starting just three days before it happened. She has been robbed. It was a tear jerker all around. She is still in Florida, but I am back with a vengeance, for MIL and the .458 WinMag.
The ammo that Sir Tony contributed to this trail was produced when MIL was 30 years old, and my wife was 8 months old. I examined it and fired 5 rounds of it at the range today. Excellent findings for +64 y.o. factory ammo. I also had on hand some 38 y.o. and 26 y.o. factory ammo for the .458 WM, all from W-W. The oldest stuff was best, and thanks again to Sir Tony for keeping it well preserved. If I can find a bottle of Pappy Van Winkle I'll get it to him, or I might settle for something cheaper, if he will. LOL.
Sir Ron, As you are well aware of All OUR Deepest sympathy for you, and your Family, and reading the Facts that you've enclosed, are Heart Wrenching! Life's Hard enough, as you understand more than most, with your Back ground and Medical Expertise.
If nothing else maybe the .458 WinMag ammo helped to take your mind off of things for a bit, and helped you to try to move fore ward a little. Great Di section of the Ammo, and What I think is great results! Yes you are Correct in the Ammo being well preserved,as we were taught by our Fathers, and the Likes. Your research here is Simply second to none, and we are all looking fore ward to your Possible Published Works! Move Over Previous Gun Writers. LOL!
I could see a Rondevous in our future, as a Meeting of the Knights of the Square Table,(now with the Covid stuff aside), as Sir Jerry has suggested, in the past. As Far as Pappy, heck Mammy, or her cousins will do just fine as we all can add to the Cellar, enjoying some of our favorite Home Made Recipes, and Such, and getting schooled in Person, by the Master Knight Him Self, and Enjoy a Little HOOH RAH! LOL! Sir Tony
Hey Sir Tony, Will you settle for a bottle of Buffalo Trace if I can find one ? I'll drink to that ! Sir Jerry will probably prefer the whisky instead of the whiskey.
Emailed Steve Davis since his telephone mailbox is full. He has been busy, off the Hammer Bullets forums. He did say Hammer could do that FN solid copper bullet.
With the 404-gr High-BC "Long Ranger" Shock Hammer and the 402-gr 90% Retention Shock Hammer, a 400-gr FN Solid Copper Hammer would complete the grand slam of .458 caliber bullets. Nothing else need apply for any job.
I await with bated breath. What will it be called in the catalog ? "Copperhead Hammer" ... deadly biter ... "Flat Head Hammer" ... to honor the Native American Tribe ... "Copper Hammer" ... better than a Brass Hammer ... "Solid Hammer" ... simply a solid performer ... I'll look at the catalog and see if there are any other solids already named. Short term memory of sometimers' disease is not for sissies.
Buy a donkey for that input. Hammer Bullets is in Kalispell, Montana, on the shore of Flathead Lake. That is a huge natural reservoir left by the glaciers and outflowing as the Flathead River. Smack dab in the middle of Flathead Country, as the locals call it. Oom John Buhmiller Country, Bauska and MRC, etc. McGowen Custom Barrels is in Kalispell too. It is the Rifleman's Mecca.
Flathead Hammer is what I am calling the bullet, maybe Hammer Bullets will do so too.
Damn, you guys are stepping all around nickname Dad had for me, HAMMERHEAD! LOL, nice to see the quality in the old 1957 FMJ's from WW, i knew i'd mess up diving behind a two ft diameter tree for cover from one of those, think i'd have got found ; ]
Sir Ron, Just a Kind Gesture to add to the Foray, and sit back and enjoy your work, Good Sir! As you know a Bottle is only good in the Company that's present, no matter what the Label. So your Kind Gesture, can and will be enjoyed at the Next Meeting of the square Table,by ALL, in Full Regalia. Septor and all, oh fine one! LOL! I think we can Satisfy Sir Jerry, one way or another.
As far as a name for the Hammer Bullets that we are all so very impressed with, you've come up with a couple good ones.IMO As much as I like the "Copperhead Hammer Bullets" it does remind me of the .22 cal. bullets of old, that we used to shoot a lot. "Flat Head Hammer Bullets", Honoring the Indian Tribes, is nice also. Lot's of good choices, as the Bullet itself won't let the Shooter down, regardless of the Name!
As a stress reliever on the funeral trip to Florida, I sat in the hotel one night while wife was in the shower, and drew a bullet on a scrap of Holiday Inn Express note paper. I may not get to be a commercial pilot by staying the night there, but now I am a bullet designer !
A reference on copper and brass 450-gr/.458 FN solids:
Concept done on graph paper after I got home, here is a cutie that looks a lot like Sir Saint Bill Bagwell's PH hardcast of 475 to 480 grains in .458" diameter for BPCR ("Smoke Over Africa"). That killer-diller at 1300 fps was 1.22" long and had seven grease grooves on it, and a flat nose and base. My concept in copper could be exactly 400 grains and travel at 2500 fps, BOL 1.200"
The basic shape is the base frustrum of a right circular cone with 26-degree cone angle, 0.240" height, 0.458" base diameter, sitting on top of a right circular cylinder of 0.458" diameter and 0.960" height.
That basic shape in copper of specific gravity about 8.9 would weigh about 424 grains, I SWAG. After whittling away the Hammer PDR bands/grooves X 7 along the sides and radius-beveling the nose down to 0.300" meplat diameter (about 65.5% of caliber) and rounding the flat base edge, if anymore reduction in weight is needed to get 400-grains exactly: A tiny hollow in the base. This would work in the .45-70 Gov't. lever action with .458" groove and any other .458-cal rifle I know of. "405-g" would be OK too if a catchier number than plain vanilla "400-g" is desired. 400 grains or 405 grains, since 402 and 404 are already taken by Hammer .458 bullets.
This basically copies the BBW#13 FN solid nose shape of Sam Rose, Sir Michael "Doc M" McCourry, CEB, and North Fork. But with the PDR bands, I think the "nose projection" issue is a non-issue since with the low drag bands of Hammer Bullets, the whole length of the bullet becomes "nose projection." About 0.600" minimum of nose projection ahead of the "high drag" CEB bands is recommended for best penetration. How about twice that amount using PDR bands ?
Sir Ron,
Very sorry for your wife, and whatever hits them, hits us too, so it is good to have some distractions. That's how I treat my blog writing. There's more than enough trouble for most folk, and to have grace from God to get up and go on is a good thing. You've demonstrated that many times. So I pray for you (and your wife) that you'll experience His grace from day to day.
Keep on keeping on with your good work, which, BTW, isn't limited to making bullets.
Damn, you guys are stepping all around nickname Dad had for me, HAMMERHEAD! LOL, nice to see the quality in the old 1957 FMJ's from WW, i knew i'd mess up diving behind a two ft diameter tree for cover from one of those, think i'd have got found ; ]
Good stuff Sir Ron, glad you're back.
A rock maple would work, but I fired a soft-nose 405gr/.458" from my Marlin at around 2000 fps into a 16" softwood tree about twenty years ago, from around eight feet, and it went completely through, landing 10 or 12 feet the other side making a furrow 6 to 8 feet long before burrowing itself, never to be found! So don't stand behind any trees is someone thinks you're a deer and firing a .45-70!
The mentioned tree was a tamarack. A number of years later I was testing some handloads from my Marlin (45-70) during the winter at my no.1 bear-bait location. At the time the bait was much closer than later years, at 36 yards from the blind. At 40 yards there was a dead-fall - a 10" spruce. It was showing it's age as most of the branches had fallen off or been broken by game - mostly deer. When a bear was approaching the bait it had to step over the dead-fall, giving away its distance from the blind. I did kill one bear there using my Ruger #1 45-70 LT.
However, what I'm talking about here is that test of bullets from the Marlin. The depth of snow was about to the lower side of the spruce, and I was shooting at the middle of it's diameter. These were not "pussy cat" loads, but Hot! In passing through the tree they were slowed enough to drop a bit and the frozen snow acted as a trap. I would then dig them out with a shovel (those I could find). One find was a 405gr Remington, with a slight mushroom, retaining 398.6 grains. I'll post a pic of it someday - that will be a first for that bullet.
A number of years ago I purchased 200 of those Remingtons. I'm down to about 40 now. I bought them at a bargain-basement price! Yet on bear and deer they are gold at appropriate ranges.
The point of this being we shouldn't despise bargains - they may turn out to be a bag of gold!
Sir Bob, Yes, Wife has been hard hit, she is still in Florida dealing with it all. The malpractice part is probably going to slide off into the 2-year statute of limitations, as tort reform in Florida made it unprofitable for lawyers to undertake cases for deceased elderly widows. "Free Kill Law" of Florida is what lobbyists against it call it.
MIL was a pastor's wife and a social worker, mother of five children with him. She loved dogs. We inherited her last one. A little over 3 years ago, her second husband (a WWII Navy Pilot), died at 98 y.o. She ended up in the "assisted living/dying home" at 91 y.o. but could not keep her dog, a Min Pin called Meika. MIL ended up getting a declawed cat as a pet she was able to care for in "the home." How sad. We took Meika in at 14-3/4 y.o. or 103 dog years. She made it to fully 17.5 y.o. or 122 dog years. She wasted from 16 pounds to 10 pounds, and was euthanized to end the suffering, and we cried lots with that. That was about 6 months ago, and MIL heard about it and recommended another dog. We dallied, but now in remembrance of her we have found not one but two pups to rescue from "Animal Control." In the spirit of carrying on, as you stated so gracefully, I vow to keep at least one dog at all times, and name them for rifle calibers, including retroactively.
Precious Meika in her prime at 17 y.o. or 119 dog years:
What luck to get sibling pups, male and female, 9 pounds each and 6 months old, according to "Kennel Card." I can pick them up Monday after they recover enough from their spaying an neutering. Ouch.
Those two are going to be trained as squirrel dogs, tree rat dogs.
If I outlive the rat terriers, I pray The Lord will allow me one more dog:
As you were. Sir Michael had the 400-gr/.458 Flathead Hammer run by his forum, and he offered some terminals of bullets with similar characteristics. He said the North Fork B&M version 450-gr/.458 might actually be a wee bit better than the CEB brass 450-gr/.458 FN, straight and true, a deep penetrator:
This 455-gr/.500-caliber copper FN has less sectional density than the proposed Flathead but it was faultless considering the low velocity, stayed straight on course.
Both copper and brass will deform on heavy bone. At 2500 fps or less there will be no noticeable expansion of either brass or copper on soft tissue or water impact. 1800 fps to 2500 fps in .45-70 Gov't or .458 WM ought to work with the Flathead Hammer.
Sir Jerry has acquired Sir Saint Bagwell's "Smoke over Africa" rifle from Mrs. Bill Bagwell. That is a Shiloh Sharps 1874 Montana Rough Rider .45-70. "It's one of five 20"-twist rifles Bill got Kirk up at Shiloh to tool up for."
Paper-patched load Sir Jerry has come up with has a standard deviation in fps of less than the number of shots fired, 2 fps for 3 shots. Excellent. Jerry claims he can do better, in his usual self-deprecating manner, but that is going to be a tough nut to crack.
Mould is a copy of an original Sharps factory bullet "500-grainer" that weighs 505 In Sir Jerry's alloy, and I am thinking might have been 511 grains in the alloy used by Sir Saint Bagwell.
Remember, if you have a SAAMI .458 WM or a .458 WM+ with 1:14" twist, you too can shoot paper-patched bullets with BP. But you gotta use a little harder alloy like 20:1 lead:tin. And you gotta have a slick of about .450" to .452" diameter (swaged rifle slicks of 530-grains are sold in .451" diameter at Buffalo Arms) and patch it up to .458" to .459" diameter. The .458 WinMag throat is thus perfect for paper patch work with BP or duplexed BP. Clean shooting with the duplexed BP, no wiping or blowing for 50 shots or more. The paper patch wipes it with each shot anyway.
The no-throat and slow-twist .45-70 requires a BPCR load as perfected by Sir Jerry.
Sir Jerry has acquired Sir Saint Bagwell's "Smoke over Africa" rifle from Mrs. Bill Bagwell. That is a Shiloh Sharps 1874 Montana Rough Rider .45-70. "It's one of five 20"-twist rifles Bill got Kirk up at Shiloh to tool up for."
Paper-patched load Sir Jerry has come up with has a standard deviation in fps of less than the number of shots fired, 2 fps for 3 shots. Excellent. Jerry claims he can do better, in his usual self-deprecating manner, but that is going to be a tough nut to crack.
Mould is a copy of an original Sharps factory bullet "500-grainer" that weighs 505 In Sir Jerry's alloy, and I am thinking might have been 511 grains in the alloy used by Sir Saint Bagwell.
That damned Gunner is an animal to keep pace with.
Thanks Sir Ron and Big Beretzs, working with Saint Bagwell's old rifle will be a fun and honorable project and will easily fill time from now to Africa as my 458 WM+ is like lunchmeat, always ready, no need to waste the ammunition, 450gr TSX's at 2418 fps are landing a foot low at 300 yards, the 500gr TBSS at 2350 fps land within an inch of the TSX's at 100 yards through scope, solids dead on at 50 yards with barrel sights, were a Buffalo to flee the 450gr TSX he would quickly be caught with a 500gr solid.
Sir Ron, Saint Bagwell gave me that mould to cast bullets for my two original 45 2-7/8's rifles, he had a man with the last name of Mos cut the mould, he spoke a lot of two of his favorite round nose paper patch bullets, one weighing 496gr, the other 511gr, he mostly cast and loaded with 50/50 wheel weights and pure lead, this bullet falls from the mould at 0.440 and patches up to 0.446 with Seth Cole 55W paper, i'll run all these soft at 40/1 alloy for deer and pigs this fall, it'll be the only Sharps rifle i hunt with this year.
The load is a mix of Starline brass i had plus 100 rounds Bill gave me, i annealed all cases, FL sized then trimmed at 2.100" CCI-BR2 primer 75gr KIK 2F black powder compressed 0.400" with 0.010" playing card wad on top 0.200" Black Magic grease cookie with another playing card wad on top Patched bullet hand seated then case mouth closed slightly with Lyman taper crimp die.
I was able to fire all three rounds with no wipe, no blowtube, also able to load then unload round number three before firing it, all that's necessary for hunting rifle loads.
I can do no better work, just want to honor the rifle and our Old Buddy Saint Bagwell.
Sir Jerry, Sir Bagwell will be proud once again, as you Honor the Man, the Saint, the Legend, that Some of us who Didn't get the Honor,or privilege, of His presence, or first hand knowledge, but truly enjoy the stories and facts of the Time well spent by you, and a few Lucky, and Fortunate others, Who are willing to share this advanced Tutorial, at our expense, Forth Coming!
No caking of powders, no loose bullets glued into the case necks. Primer sealant debris on the 1983 stuff is very peculiar. Sumbuddy who know what that could be ? Democrat Party boogers is all I can call it.
The rifle was The Alder Queen, Alderella Ruger-Shilen, M77 MK II with old Nikon SlugHunter scope with BDC reticle. She was left as sighted for dead on at 100 yards with the Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX at about 2350 fps, 25" barrel. Same as what killed the pedophile buck chasing the tiny doe this past deer season here. The targets below were at 50 yards.
Any reason why any of the above tested cartridges would NOT kill a Cape Buff or Elephant with proper shot placement?
Please keep in mind that in our African bullet tests the 450 grain .458 North Fork (copper) and Punch (brass) bullets fired from Winchester 1886 .45-70 at around 2000 fps both shot through the ele head and into the body. The same combination shot through most Cape Buff and killed all.
To this reader, it seems that the old .458 Win Mag ammo was sufficient to kill the big and bad DG way back when --IF the hunter placed the bullet properly.
Buy a donkey for the flowers. Are you bucking for Knighthood ?
Sir Charles, Ditto. About a half dozen times I have tested the latest Hornady DGX and DGS 500-grainers in 23" to 25" barrels, at various temperatures in various rifles, results are consistently agreeable, about 2125 fps to 2150 fps. They claim 2140 fps in their 24" barrel, and I claim they are spot on.
Here is the 400-gr/.458 FN solid bullet for the ages, my latest refinement to run by the Hammer Bullets Company, call it a FLATHEAD HAMMER or a HAMMERHEAD, or whatever they like I hope:
At the B&M forum they are stuck on the brass CEB solid bullets with the weird band structures and bore-rifing noses meant for short&tight-throated chambers and COL-challenged magazine rifles.
The Hammer PDR bands are a different approach. The more of them, the lower the pressure and fouling will be. They are a sinusoidal sort of oscillation between groove diameter and just barely below bore diameter. IIRC, the peak is 0.458" and the trough is 0.448" on that 404-g Shock Hammer.
The .458 WinMag throat is especially well suited to having the full bearing diameter well forward on the bullet. No big need for bore-riding nose to fit in a short and tight throat. No drive bands standing abruptly proud. The low drag PDR bands will fit into the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat all the way to 0.6725" forward of case mouth.
As Archimedes said right after his eureka! moment: “Give me a SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag and I will beat a SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott, when both are allowed same COL and same MAP.”
Summer is coming and I will do them alongside the Hammer bullets. Whatever medium I imitate MIB wetpack with will be calibrated by the MIB 404-g Shock Hammer result.
THREE RIFLES for All Hunting? My thinking… (March 12, 2022)
And still… it’s unbelievable that there are a few who think themselves “experts”, and write “articles” in magazine “rags”, who are really quite ignorant of the facts going all the way back to 1956! Or they are very prejudiced in favoring the .458 Lott over the .458 Win.
I say it’s “unbelievable” that today such drivel could still be spouted by those who make their living as “professional writers”! They are either very lazy or idiots! Or both! They deserve a big fat “F” on their homework! They should have known – without excuses – that the earliest tests of both Winchester factory 500gr loads and independent handloads, done by an independent lab (White’s) as reported in a LYMAN Reloading Handbook (the 2nd one from Lyman that I owned), revealed that not only were the claimed ballistics (in a 24″ barrel”) by Winchester fully met, but were EXCEEDED at less than 60, 000 psi! (The Lott is granted 62,500 PSI by SAAMI !) Yet the Win Mag is it’s equal or even better depending on how each is loaded, barrel lengths and psi! (I’ve written ALL that in my .458 Winchester Magnum manual back in 2008!)
I KNEW, from my experiences in handloading two Rugers No.1 in .45-70, that since the first (unmodified in any way) with it 22″ barrel could make over 2000 fps from the 500gr Hornady RN, at a tested safe psi, then surely a .458 Win Mag with the same length barrel could make 2200 fps from the same bullet within safe psi! And when my 2nd Ruger #1 in .45-70 with an improved throat could make 2200 fps from safe handloads of that 500gr, then surely my CZ550 in .458 Win could do 2300 fps from its 25″ barrel without undue stress, using several appropriate propellants! And not only did it accomplish that, but so will the Ruger No.1H in .458 with a 24″ barrel do the same… and a bit more!
A .25-06 (or 7-08) can make about 2700 ft-lbs from the muzzle firing a 120gr at 3200 fps. A 9.3 x 62 can make 4300 ft-lbs from a 320gr at 2460 fps from my rifle. And the .458 Win can make 5900 ft-lbs from a 500gr at 2305 fps. Those are top loads from those rifles firing those weight bullets.
I understand your dismay at the drivel that you reference. Could it be that those writers can write but cannot read? There are many such examples in life, but the ignorance shown by some people in the shooting field is hard to understand in an era where so many facts are available with just a bit of research on the Internet.
One of my favorite examples of this is the erroneous answers to the common firearms forum question about shooting 45-70 ammo in a rifle chambered for the 45-90 cartridge. The answer is YES, it is OK, and that was one reason that I bought my 1886 45-90 rather than and 1886 45-70. It seems to me that many lever gun "experts" skipped that part of their education and are just repeating what other uninformed "experts" have said.
A related attitude is that if you want more performance from your .458 rifle, buy a .458 Win Mag! Dummies, if I wanted a .458 Win Mag I would have bought one. Also, just because so many folks/sissies never learned to properly shoot a curved metal butt plate and recommend I cut mine off and put on a shotgun pad, does not mean that I will ruin the lines of one of my rifles!
A related attitude is that if you want more performance from your .458 rifle, buy a .458 Win Mag! Dummies, if I wanted a .458 Win Mag I would have bought one. Also, just because so many folks/sissies never learned to properly shoot a curved metal butt plate and recommend I cut mine off and put on a shotgun pad, does not mean that I will ruin the lines of one of my rifles!
Vent over!
Sir Charles is hereby awarded title of "Court Jester" at the Square Table.
The obvious approach, for me, is to use the .458 WinMag throat and, since I have long arms for my height and like it, a slip-on recoil pad over the steel crescent butt plate, should I wish to pursue other than nostalgic endeavors with the rimmed cartridges in lever-action and single-shot rifles. Re-throating is easy and slip-on LOP adjusters are reversible..
The .458 WinMag throat is especially well suited to having the full bearing diameter well forward on the bullet. No big need for bore-riding nose to fit in a short and tight throat. No drive bands standing abruptly proud. The low drag PDR bands will fit into the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat all the way to 0.6725″ forward of case mouth.
With objections over the dimple in the base of the bullet I said this:
The dimple on the base was only a fudge by me since I was allowing adjustment room for weight, based on my calculations using the equivalent of an abacus and removing my shoes so as to have 20 digits to add and subtract with.
By all means make it with a flat base, please ! I believe the Hammer Bullets design team has greater calculatory and prototyping abilities than I do. Ha ha, yes, I am trying to be funny.
Seriously now, please start at the flat meplat of 0.300″ diameter and a 13-degree angle at each side of the radiused nose, working toward base with the PDR bands at a wavelength of about 0.100″ like on the 404g Shock Hammer, and stop when you come to a flat base with the bullet weighing 400-gr minimum to 405-gr maximum. Radius flat base edge too for ease of seating. The similar radius on the nose at meplat edge aids feeding and penetration. That will be about as short a bullet as possible that will feed well and penetrate well for the 400-ish grain weight.
Must not the effects of the bands be considered in context? As in Viking Law, everything is relative and there are no absolutes.
Are PDR bands of varying wavelength ? I do not know. Such specifics are above my pay grade, like a diameter spec of .0005″ above groove diameter on the PDR peaks, which I was just made aware of again, having forgotten it if I read it previously.
If they are of constant 0.100″ from peak to peak or trough to trough, and I want a flat base and a maximized run of full diameter, i.e., no boat tail and no long ogive nor bore-riding noses. it still seems to me that the more the merrier for PDR bands, if they are of a fixed 0.100″ wavelength, which makes for such wonderful crimping locations.
I want to be able to crimp in a trough at 0.500″ from meplat and at 0.840″ from meplat. But troughs at 0.450″ and 0.850″ will be fine for making desired COLs (.45-70 and .458 WM). +/- 0.010″ is easily absorbed in brass trimming or sliding the crimp location, and I really like those PDR at 0.100″ apart, and crimping in the troughs.
I certainly see where fewer bands works to reduce start pressure and fouling when you have a lot of the bullet below full diameter as with bore-riding nose or a lot of sub-caliber ogive length and boat tail base. That is not desirable for as short and heavy as possible in an FN solid. This is not a sub bore bullet riding in the bands. Certainly in that case more bands increases the undesirables.
Hammer Bullets has a bullet with a mildly dished-out meplat that they call the "Claw Hammer." Sort of like the North Fork Cup Point, but less pronounced concavity of the wide meplat. They also have one with a cup in the nose a little deeper than the NF Cup Point that they call the "Jack Hammer."
Flathead Claw Hammer = Ripping Hammer = Framing Hammer = Carpentry Hammer ... So many possibilities.
Thanks to Steve and Brian at Hammer Bullets.
Fingers crossed on the "Parabolic Drag Reduction" bands not being an impediment to penetration on an FN solid.
LOL Sir Ron, i use a slip on leather cover with an old ruger half inch pad inside with 20 cuts to make it fit the contour of the crescent on my 50-110 WCF, not for recoil as i currently shoot a 530gr bullet to 1360 fps over black powder, but to get the rifle out in front and down on the buttstock so i can get behind the sights, i done the same thing on Saint Bagwell's rifle as he ordered his Sharps rifles with 13.5 LOP, 1800's men most likely weighed 140lbs soaking wet and were bony as a rail, 52 inch coat and 250lbs is all kinda different trying to make a rifle fit ; ]
FWIW i dont think the PDF bands will hinder penetration at all, that flat nose will blast matter 360 degrees away from the bullet body, small cases in point, open hand slap water next time you're standing in a pool or creek, i put finishers in two deer with my Colt SAA 45, those hard cast flat nosed bullets did not expand, but, i could fit a thumb in both sides of the ribcage on both critters, my thumbs are a hell of a lot larger than a half inch, leading back to something Saint Bagwell used to speak about a flat nosed bullet compressing a solid wall of material as it blasts it's way through an animal.
FWIW i dont think the PDF bands will hinder penetration at all, that flat nose will blast matter 360 degrees away from the bullet body, small cases in point, open hand slap water next time you're standing in a pool or creek, i put finishers in two deer with my Colt SAA 45, those hard cast flat nosed bullets did not expand, but, i could fit a thumb in both sides of the ribcage on both critters, my thumbs are a hell of a lot larger than a half inch, leading back to something Saint Bagwell used to speak about a flat nosed bullet compressing a solid wall of material as it blasts it's way through an animal.
Agreed. The FN will take care of any drag issues on the PDR bands in all ways except the absolute fact that drag does and will exist. I just don't think it will make a difference. We have been shooting the old Keith SW FN with sharp shoulder and multiple square grease grooves through things for many years. I read a study somewhere recently that concluded the Sharp shoulder doesn't even make contact in Game. Cuts paper but not meat. If correct, that means the FN is moving material out of the way.
Hammer Bullets magnanimously sent a hundred bullets to replace the 67 that were 3 grains light. What a deal ! And the "outlier" issue on the copper rod stock has been addressed. Noogies to the supplier.
I opened and weighed one box of 25. No oil noted on these, and I like that too.
Here is my solid bullet, if they will cut it off flat at the base and shorten and solidify the nose into the FN shape shown last above, to a length around 1.2", whatever makes it weigh from 400 to 405 grains.
I have a fetish for 400-grain .458 bullets, all types, same as some have for Pre-’80 Colt 1911s. I am going to pile my 400-grainers on the floor and roll on them like a dog on a dead bird.
Summer is coming and I will do them alongside the Hammer bullets. Whatever medium I imitate MIB wetpack with will be calibrated by the MIB 404-g Shock Hammer result.
Excellent. Thank you Sir Ron. I think between the 380 grain WFN copper solid, the CEB 325 grain brass solid Lever & Bolt Gun versions, and the North Fork 350 grain Expanding CPS; I am covered for any North American four-legged beast at closer ranges in 45-70 & 458’s. Add the sleek Hammer 404 grain to extend my distance to a bit over 200 yards with happiness of trajectory and impact velocity with the 458’s. I do have some mild curiosity about the Hammer 402 with the advertised 90% weight retention.
Ditto, Sir Larry. Sir John has done well. The Whitworth .458. WM is a great rifle right from the factory, most of the time. Mine had nice wood and excellent factory epoxy bedding and secondary recoil lug bedded too. Good crossbolts and a dynamic 8.5-pound package overall. Alas, mine had a few rings in the chamber and had to be converted to .458/.416 Ruger by re-chambering. That was a great sadness. One less .458 Winchester Magnum in the world. Here it is before the re-chambering, done simply with a reaming and no set back of barrel. At least it still has the .458 WinMag throat. It now needs a new mag box to work correctly with 3 in the box:
Side by side with a Super Grade, a dynamic duo, a pair of peers:
I have the parts for the new mag box, still on the to-do list. I also have a fold-down rear sight for the Whitworth when using the add-on receiver sight. Schizophrenically the 3-leaf express sight with fixed 100-yard leaf was left in place with the Lyman peep for the posing above.
I have 3ea of the Interarms Mark X / Whitworth. All have the island express sights. One is a 458 Winchester the others are 375 H&Hs. If I recall correctly all 3 have the additional barrel recoil lug. The maybe I will or not list is synthetic stock for the 458. I am not sure the present day Bell & Carlson stocks will accommodate the barrel recoil lug. Not sure what all the stock options are. I have thought about removing the forward lug and fitting to a present day B&C stock.
Edit to add: I have had others of these, 458 & 375. I sold a buddy a 375 H&H with a B&C stock, maybe 20 years ago. This was a very accurate rifle in an unbedded non-aluminum frame stock. After I sighted it in for him, I almost regretted selling it.
I'd be interested in a 375 length action Whitworth
They are opened entirely to the front versus the standard length .458 WinMag action on all the ones I have seen, Alas, even Ol'Fugly my .458 Lott corruption of a Whitworth .458 WM was likewise abused by the local gunsmith.
I am stirring the pot over at the Hammer Bullets Forum:
G'Day farleg,
The Ol'Ladies and new puppy dogs have made me tardy to reply, forgive me please.
Any use of the 404g/.458 Shock Hammer on any game will be greatly appreciated. This bullet and hopefully a matching solid is what I am hunting everything with henceforth, whenever I can get spells clear of the domestics !
You ask if the 404g can get above 2600 fps in the .458 WM+. I have done about 2625 fps MV with the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN at 3.425" COL using compressed H4895 and a 25" Shilen barrel with SAAMI .458 WM chamber. That was with the maximum load for the .458 Lott in the Woodleigh manual, same COL and same degree of compression as their .458 Lott load, just seated more shallowly in the .458 WM+. I SWAG the free-bore boost in the .458 WM allows higher velocity and/or lower pressure than in the SAAMI .458 Lott.
So, 2500 fps with the 404g is a modest MV with the 24"-barreled .458 WM+ at 3.480" COL. An extreme load with 3.58" COL and 2600 fps should be possible, just not much bullet left in the case. That load might be excessive in the short-tight-throated SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott, which is unlike the original .458 Lott LIKE JACK BUILT.
I also have other .458-caliber rifles that can get it well over 2600 fps, like the CIP .450 Dakota, and my wildcat .458/.338 Lapua Magnum should do about 2900 fps. However, I do have a crush on the .458 WM+.
I am mainly a "rifle crank" like some are crazy about boats, motorcycles, hotrods, antique cars, etc. I have about 2 dozen wildcats of my own including a couple where I re-invented the wheel done earlier by someone else: My .375/.338 Lapua Magnum I later called the ".375 Twister," after I found the ".375 Tornado" twin of it had been done by the Germans, and they copyrighted the name "Tornado" as applied to any weapon system, even jet airplanes ! I also did the ".45-100 Sharps 2.6" Winchester Throated" and then found the identical cartridge existed as the ".45-70 Elko Magnum" by CIP homologation decades earlier.
So, I am no great hunter but have killed 2 each of water buffalo, bison, and cape buffalo. Wish I had done that with the .458 WM. I was a sucker for .458 Lott propaganda, fake news about the .458 WM, back then. So I used a 460 Weatherby, .375 H&H, .416 Rigby, .500 A-Square, and my own .500 Mbogo wildcat, the latter being a neck-up of Dave Estergaard's 470 Mbogo, lengthened by about 0.05" in brass to a full 3" case length. Anything but a .458 WinMag !
Forgive me .458 Winchester Magnum. Henceforth I will be hunting all with that. My last two whitetail deer fell to the .458 WinMag. A doe running at 150 yards with a GSC 400-gr HV. A big buck at about 150 yards who had paused in chasing a tiny little doe, used a Buffalo Bore load of the Barnes 400-gr TSX that gave 2350 fps MV in 25" Shilen-barreled Ruger Mk II .458 WinMag. One and done with each.
Oh, I have killed moose and marmot with a .458 WinMag in the late 1980's before I succumbed to .458 Lott propaganda, used 500-gr Hornady RNSN handloaded to 2150 fps in a 24" factory rifle. The Hornady broke into two main lead chunks and an empty jacket on the moose. That was a spectacular bullet failure that killed the moose DRT bang flop.
Now there is the most useful .458-caliber bullet ever made in the 404g Shock Hammer. Most flexible near and far. The 402g Shock Hammer is great as a magazine filler at 3.340" COL in the .458 WM, for shorter ranges. The 404g Hi-BC Shock Hammer for near and far, may be loaded from 3.280" to 3.580" COL in 0.100" increments.
The 400-405g Flathead Claw Hammer is the solid for backup on anything in any .458 WM or .458 WM+ or even a 460 WBY. Could also be used in lever action .45-70 Gov't., same as could the 402g Shock Hammer with hollow point greater in diameter than the primer ahead of it in a tubular magazine. The Flathead Claw Hammer has a meplat of 0.300" diameter, well beyond the diameter of the recessed primer ahead of it in a tubular magazine.
Ron, I went over to the Hammer forum and read the thread. If the Hammer bullets are major diameter, .458+ and then machined PDR grooves, then your statement about pressure seems logical to me. I will be interested in hearing why it's incorrect as Mr. Davis indicates that it is.
Ron, I still have a hard time not typing RIP... I went over and read a lot more on Hammers, all good reading other folks thoughts always. What I can't tell from pictures or description is how the Hammer bullets PDR grooves-bands are actually formed and what they look like. I can't imagine a circumstance that isn't spinning a larger copper rod inside a CNC machine but still if you can shed light on that when you have time, I would greatly appreciate it. Best to you Sir, F01
Steve Davis has made no further comments on number of PDR locations. He spoke from the perspective of the boat-tailed, long-ogived, pointy bullets. On a flat-based-flat-nosed bullet we are absolutely correct. The more the merrier, as long as the wavelength of the PDR band is the same, repeating every 0.100" of run in the shank of the bullet, and not just increased in frequency to increase the number of the "bands and grooves."
What little I know about the patented PDR bands is that they work very well on a bullet. "Parabolic Drag Reduction" is what the acronym stands for, not "Physician's Desk Reference." Easy to remember acronym.
I SWAG they are a sinusoidal pattern with peaks and troughs like a wave form. Peaks are 0.0005"greater than groove diameter: 0.4585" for a .458-caliber. Steve Davis stated that recently, as you read. I SWAG the troughs are about 0.001" to 0.002" less than bore diameter, so 0.448" to 0.449" for a .450-bore. No confirmation of that by Hammer. Might be 0.0005" to 0.0015" sub bore. Not sure. Whatever it is they are working at 0.0001" capability, and I am working at 0.001" capability.
They buy the special alloy copper that they use in 10 or 12 feet lengths of rod. Surely they have to spin some length of the rod in the CNC machinery, advancing it as each bullet drops off the cutter end.
Oh yes, I also used a 404 Jeffery on one of those "buffalo," a bison. It was a 380-gr North Fork Premium Soft Point at about 2530 fps. One-shot. Recovered bullet under offside hide on a broadside heart-lung shot. Like using a 375 H&H soft point on steroids.
The 404g/.458 Shock Hammer at 2530 fps ought to work even better, except the bullet will pass through the offside hide on a similar shot. Will bleed out faster. Might be a bang flop DRT instead of a 50-yard stagger.
The water buffalo shot with a 460 Weatherby old 500-gr RNSN factory load (similar broadside, heart&lung) disintegrated the bullet and required a finisher in the neck with a .375 H&H, handed to me by my faithful gunbearer, Lemuel.
I shoulda had a .458 WinMag with a 404g Shock Hammer.
Oh yes, I also used a 404 Jeffery on one of those "buffalo," a bison. It was a 380-gr North Fork Premium Soft Point at about 2530 fps. One-shot. Recovered bullet under offside hide on a broadside heart-lung shot. Like using a 375 H&H soft point on steroids.
The 404g/.458 Shock Hammer at 2530 fps ought to work even better, except the bullet will pass through the offside hide on a similar shot. Will bleed out faster. Might be a bang flop DRT instead of a 50-yard stagger.
The water buffalo shot with a 460 Weatherby old 500-gr RNSN factory load (similar broadside, heart&lung) disintegrated the bullet and required a finisher in the neck with a .375 H&H, handed to me by my faithful gunbearer, Lemuel.
I shoulda had a .458 WinMag with a 404g Shock Hammer.
IMHO exists are more deadly and often leave a better blood trail if tracking becomes necessary
To stick the thermometer in the roasted .458 Lott, it would be nice to have more pressure data comparing the SAAMI .458 WinMag, SAAMI .458 Lott and the wildcat.458 WM+. Just sayin'.
Ponder this, all Lottites:
To illustrate that the run-of-the-mill 24″ Ruger No. 1 barrel with .459″ groove diameter and .450″ bore (measured by slugging and pin gauging) is no slouch, here are some results with Lab Radar, all same day and 80*F:
Federal 500-gr TBS Solid 3.550″ COL: MV: 2419, 2408, 2406, 2401, 2405 mean = 2407.8 fps MV 100-yard: mean = 2106.4 fps
KE at muzzle = 6,436 ft-lbs for the 500-gr TBSS at 2407.8 fps The .458 WM+ loads in a SAAMI .458 WM Ruger No.1 beats a .458 Lott. Throat, throat, throat: Free-bore-boost.
Those handloads would make for some interesting pressure tracings at MIB, just sayin’.
The 450-gr TSX and 500-gr TBSS combo are unbeatable. The 100 yard POI of the 450-gr TSX load was just 1" higher than the 500-gr TBSS load when I tested them at 100 yards, Sir Jerry is well armed with those bullets in his .458 WM+.
More gentlemanly loads will be possible with the 400-grainers from Hammer at 2500 fps or better. COL for those will be usable in 3.4" magazine box loading. And they will be sufficient for anything also.
The .458 B&M may be able to do with a 20" barrel what the SAAMI .458 WinMag does with a 24" barrel, almost ... Here is some data harvested from results circa 2013 at MIB, by Michael McCourry.
MIB pressure and velocity data for 20″ .458 B&M versus 24″ .458 WM test rifles using same bullet, one of my favorites, the North Fork 400-gr Premium Soft Point, COLs not listed but assume .458 B&M is 3.00″ or less and .458 WM is 3.340″ or less:
SAAMI .458 WM with 2.500″ brass length and 3.340″ COL allows 0.840″ bullet projection. Proprietary .458 B&M with 2.240″ brass length and 3.000″ COL allows 0.760″ bullet projection. Both cases have same gross case capacity. Extra bullet projection of 0.080″ in the .458 WM gives it a 3.3-grain H20 net case capacity advantage.
With .458 WM throat revision of the .458 B&M it becomes the .458 B&M+W. .458 B&M+W with COL of 3.340″ has same gross and net case capacity when using same bullet as the .458 WM+ with COL of 3.600″. Both will give higher velocities than the SAAMI .458 Lott when all are loaded to same pressure.
I SWAG that the SAAMI .458 WM throat gives about 5000 psi lower pressure than the .458 B&M when both are loaded to the same net capacity with the same bullet and powder charge. This is no doubt related to how the .458 B&M with 20″ barrel equals the SAAMI .458 WM with 24″ barrel. Just sayin’.
Seems like 70 gr of RL-7 (latest lot) is a lot like 80 grains of AA-2230 (post 2016) in MV results, and I am SWAGging pressures will be lower with the AA-2230.
Barrel rifling differences considered too: 80-g charge of AA-2230 in the .458 WM 400-gr GSC HV loaded to COL of 3.395″ Fired same day, 55*F:
Measuring bore diameters is above my paygrade. Have to take to gunsmith with pin gauges in .0005″ increments for estimate of that.
My .458 B&M+W barrel: 19.75″ PAC-NOR (0.4580″ groove diameter, 1:10″ twist, 8-groove, stainless) With the minimum-spec groove diameter it is not a slow barrel. Faster twist and 8-groove instead of 6-groove will have minimal effects on MV and pressure, I suspect.
Here is a pic of the 125-gr/.257-cal Hammer bullet (the one with 7 bands) next to another variety of Hammer. PDR wavelengths do vary if they are both Hammers. It still hope for 0.100" wavelength on the .458 Flathead Hammer solid. To reduce bearing surface with fewer bands would require less convenient crimping locations. If 7 bands works on the 447-gr Shock Hammer HP, Surely 6 or 7 of them at 0.100" intervals, starting about a half inch back from the meplat will be possible.
To stick the thermometer in the roasted .458 Lott, it would be nice to have more pressure data comparing the SAAMI .458 WinMag, SAAMI .458 Lott and the wildcat.458 WM+. Just sayin'.
Ponder this, all Lottites:
To illustrate that the run-of-the-mill 24″ Ruger No. 1 barrel with .459″ groove diameter and .450″ bore (measured by slugging and pin gauging) is no slouch, here are some results with Lab Radar, all same day and 80*F:
Federal 500-gr TBS Solid 3.550″ COL: MV: 2419, 2408, 2406, 2401, 2405 mean = 2407.8 fps MV 100-yard: mean = 2106.4 fps
KE at muzzle = 6,436 ft-lbs for the 500-gr TBSS at 2407.8 fps The .458 WM+ loads in a SAAMI .458 WM Ruger No.1 beats a .458 Lott. Throat, throat, throat: Free-bore-boost.
Those handloads would make for some interesting pressure tracings at MIB, just sayin’.
Thank you Sir Ron for all of that marvelous work! Unbeatable, and from a Ruger No.1 (like mine)! I'm persuaded to get a fresh can of AA2460. I have new boxes of the 600 Barnes, 550 Woodleigh and 500 DGX, 2460 should be the right medicine for those!
A lot of great work done here! These Hammer Bullet's sure are interesting.
I'm thinking the true test after all the Scientific experimentation from the Square tables Members, that the true test might be from Sir Jerry's Limpopo Adventure, coming up.
The 450-gr TSX and 500-gr TBSS combo are unbeatable. The 100 yard POI of the 450-gr TSX load was just 1" higher than the 500-gr TBSS load when I tested them at 100 yards, Sir Jerry is well armed with those bullets in his .458 WM+.
More gentlemanly loads will be possible with the 400-grainers from Hammer at 2500 fps or better. COL for those will be usable in 3.4" magazine box loading. And they will be sufficient for anything also.
You bet Sir Ron, near impossible to top, great works Sir!
Sir Tony, i'd have to get the okay from Sir Ron to order a box or two and try the 400gr Hammer bullets, i promised him i'd use the lifetime supply he so graciously gave me of 450gr TSX's at 2418 fps on buffalo this fall, that said, i'd happily give them a go if no one else has tested them yet, there's a spot up at the little bush camp on The Limpopo river a man can look dew North as far as the eye can see into Botswana, standing in the same spot looking to the North/Northeast one can see the mountains in Zimbabwe, some uninformed jackwad on here that said all of South Africa was under fence picked the wrong week to stop huffing paint ; ]...........again...
There's no telling what may come strolling into that camp, if i can find a 40+ inch buffalo, the Great 458 WM+ will get the job! lying in bed at night hearing the Bushbuck bark, Lions, Hyenas and Elephant cracking trees like they were toothpicks causes a chill to run down ones spine, GOOD STUFF my Friend.
The 450-gr TSX and 500-gr TBSS combo are unbeatable. The 100 yard POI of the 450-gr TSX load was just 1" higher than the 500-gr TBSS load when I tested them at 100 yards, Sir Jerry is well armed with those bullets in his .458 WM+.
More gentlemanly loads will be possible with the 400-grainers from Hammer at 2500 fps or better. COL for those will be usable in 3.4" magazine box loading. And they will be sufficient for anything also.
You bet Sir Ron, near impossible to top, great works Sir!
Sir Tony, i'd have to get the okay from Sir Ron to order a box or two and try the 400gr Hammer bullets, i promised him i'd use the lifetime supply he so graciously gave me of 450gr TSX's at 2418 fps on buffalo this fall, that said, i'd happily give them a go if no one else has tested them yet, there's a spot up at the little bush camp on The Limpopo river a man can look dew North as far as the eye can see into Botswana, standing in the same spot looking to the North/Northeast one can see the mountains in Zimbabwe, some uninformed jackwad on here that said all of South Africa was under fence picked the wrong week to stop huffing paint ; ]...........again...
There's no telling what may come strolling into that camp, if i can find a 40+ inch buffalo, the Great 458 WM+ will get the job! lying in bed at night hearing the Bushbuck bark, Lions, Hyenas and Elephant cracking trees like they were toothpicks causes a chill to run down ones spine, GOOD STUFF my Friend.
Sir Jerry, Yes Sir good Stuff indeed! You don't need me to tell you what to Shoot! LOL! As I'm sure your more than Equipped and ready to roll on your trip to the Great and Wonderful Limpopo. Having all the confidence in your weapon, and what your feeding it, as you are well aware of, is what it's all about! Most people only dream of a hunt and adventure of such great Magnatude. As far as any negative comments coming from unauthorized Jack in the Boxes, well,we'll just ignore that negative stuff as there's enough of that in the Fake Media B.S.!!!!!!!! We're positive people here and gonna keep it Rolling forward in the right Direction as you'll bring back some amazing stories, and the Wifey's documented accounts will make for some great reading!
The 450-gr TSX and 500-gr TBSS combo are unbeatable. The 100 yard POI of the 450-gr TSX load was just 1" higher than the 500-gr TBSS load when I tested them at 100 yards, Sir Jerry is well armed with those bullets in his .458 WM+.
More gentlemanly loads will be possible with the 400-grainers from Hammer at 2500 fps or better. COL for those will be usable in 3.4" magazine box loading. And they will be sufficient for anything also.
You bet Sir Ron, near impossible to top, great works Sir!
Sir Tony, i'd have to get the okay from Sir Ron to order a box or two and try the 400gr Hammer bullets, i promised him i'd use the lifetime supply he so graciously gave me of 450gr TSX's at 2418 fps on buffalo this fall, that said, i'd happily give them a go if no one else has tested them yet, there's a spot up at the little bush camp on The Limpopo river a man can look dew North as far as the eye can see into Botswana, standing in the same spot looking to the North/Northeast one can see the mountains in Zimbabwe, some uninformed jackwad on here that said all of South Africa was under fence picked the wrong week to stop huffing paint ; ]...........again...
There's no telling what may come strolling into that camp, if i can find a 40+ inch buffalo, the Great 458 WM+ will get the job! lying in bed at night hearing the Bushbuck bark, Lions, Hyenas and Elephant cracking trees like they were toothpicks causes a chill to run down ones spine, GOOD STUFF my Friend.
Sir Jerry, Yes Sir good Stuff indeed! You don't need me to tell you what to Shoot! LOL! As I'm sure your more than Equipped and ready to roll on your trip to the Great and Wonderful Limpopo. Having all the confidence in your weapon, and what your feeding it, as you are well aware of, is what it's all about! Most people only dream of a hunt and adventure of such great Magnatude. As far as any negative comments coming from unauthorized Jack in the Boxes, well,we'll just ignore that negative stuff as there's enough of that in the Fake Media B.S.!!!!!!!! We're positive people here and gonna keep it Rolling forward in the right Direction as you'll bring back some amazing stories, and the Wifey's documented accounts will make for some great reading!
Stay Healthy All!
Sir Tony
All good Sir Tony, i mean, all good except for the buffalo, 400 Hammer or 450 TSX, he'll be in a world of hurt, i'll do my very best to make sure it's over ASAP.
Gunner and all: You are right on with the effectiveness of your loads. This 1886 45-90 pushing 450 grain North Fork FPS at 2150 fps shot through Cape Buff, actually several, and on a frontal brain shot, through an ele head and on into the body -- DRT.
Sir Bob, Keep us posted on any AA-2460 results. I have not tried it with 550- and 600-grainers. Should do well.
I am still riding herd on a Flathead Hammer solid, new application of a previous photo to illustrate my wants:
That bullet is 1.330" long and has 6 PDR locations. Chop off the base flat and short, fill in the nose hole, shorten and form the nose to proper FN meplat ... Voila ! 400- to 405-gr Flathead Hammer. Either 6 or 7 PDR at 0.100" wavelength. That'll do.
Sir Jerry has no chance of ballistic failure on safari with his .458 WM+.
Sir Tony says that if Kit Carson could've he would've had a .458 Winchester Magnum.
The abuse I put up with elsewhere can be turned into fun:
"Riflecrank
If you're not going to shoot those rifles fast with hammer bullets you might want to let your sister do it😁 You can probably use your moped helmet as a stunt shooter helmet🤔🤔🤔"
Ha ha. There once was a guy who went by the handle "shootaway" at the Arab Anchor Baby's website. shootaway was a French-Canadian and claimed to actually use a "shooting helmet." He also physically and mentally resembled the Billy Bob Thornton character Karl Childers from "Sling Blade." I think shootaway liked mustard on his bullets, not biscuits, for his .458 Lott, because he claimed 50 shots would wear out a .458 Lott barrel. Must have been the mustard ... or the JB Paste he scrubbed his barrels with religiously.
The product of bullet weight in grains times velocity in fps has units of grains-fps, a nontraditional unit for momentum which is usually expressed as pounds-fps, or "pounds-feet" as Elmer would say it. So "grains-feet" is converted to "pounds-feet" by dividing by 7000. Other units for momentum include "kilogram-meter per second" and "slug-fps" with a slug = 32.1740 pounds in US customary units.
A 400-gr bullet at 2500 fps has 1,000,000 grains-feet of momentum. A million grains-feet ! A 450-gr bullet at 2222.2...fps has same. A 500-gr bullet at 2000 fps has same.
They are all going to be about equally fun to shoot. If these are nondeforming bullets of proper FN nose design, they are all going to penetrate well enough.
Finn Aagaard said a 500-gr bullet at 2000 fps will make a bloody big hole through anything, referring to his experience with the .458 WinMag.
He and Phil Shoemaker also noted that the old 400-gr Barnes X-Bullet did as well or better than any of the then available 500-gr soft-nose/expanding bullets. That was for penetration and disruption of artificial media AND for results on big game in the field.
The similarly designed 400-gr monometal copper bullet is going to be shorter, and inherently more stable for straight-line penetration than a longer bullet. It might make up for in extra stability anything it might lack in weight, for FN solid performance. And I won't even need a manbun helmet to shoot it.
Sir Bob, Keep us posted on any AA-2460 results. I have not tried it with 550- and 600-grainers. Should do well.
I am still riding herd on a Flathead Hammer solid, new application of a previous photo to illustrate my wants:
That bullet is 1.330" long and has 6 PDR locations. Chop off the base flat and short, fill in the nose hole, shorten and form the nose to proper FN meplat ... Voila ! 400- to 405-gr Flathead Hammer. Either 6 or 7 PDR at 0.100" wavelength. That'll do.
Sir Jerry has no chance of ballistic failure on safari with his .458 WM+.
Sir Tony says that if Kit Carson could've he would've had a .458 Winchester Magnum.
Thanks Sir Ron, indeed, no failure with the Great 458 WM+, my little 12 twist FN 257 Weatherby is the only concern right now, 100gr TSX bullets for plains game up to Blue Wildebeest will be some heavy lifting for the little Mauser, i could alleviate all that by bringing my old pre-64 300 H&H with Lyman receiver peep guiding 220gr npt's, a great companion for the 458 WM+ .
Gunner and all: You are right on with the effectiveness of your loads. This 1886 45-90 pushing 450 grain North Fork FPS at 2150 fps shot through Cape Buff, actually several, and on a frontal brain shot, through an ele head and on into the body -- DRT.
You are not under gunned, but just right.
Thanks CRS, good stuff with that '86, excellent bullets with great shooting get it done every time.
Gunner, No real choice there. You already said it: "my old pre-64 300 H&H with Lyman receiver peep guiding 220gr npt's, a great companion for the 458 WM+" F01
LOL, damn, ten four 44, one thing about it, if the bird falters one simply cant pull to the side of the road and get out..............................brings to mind back in the days of "one chute/one pistol!"
Fury, it would be a more than easy choice were the low bush veld not so thick up at that camp, it would be grand for a more open hunting area, just like the mighty sharps rifles on the Western plains, a 1000 yard open field with 50 black VW bugs parked about would make for some easy iron sight visibility and hunting, we all know we cant hit what we cant see, i still love those old receiver peep rifles, the 300 H&H goes with Africa like an ice cold Windhoek beer in the Boma after a long hot day in the sun.
Sir Allen, I would only return to Africa for elephant. I would go to Australia if I could cull a big bag of water buffalo. I hate bribing and tipping every step of the way and really prefer less of luxury camping and more of roughing it on my own say so. Whatever happens, the .458 WinMag be there.
Funny how some say that the ".458 WM is inadequate" and others say it is "overkill." Both concepts are oxymorons. If the crybabies cannot agree on that, the truth must be that the .458 Winchester Magnum is "just right," the Goldilocks rifle.
Thanks Fury, and yes, as Sir Ron just said, with the 458 WM+ being Goldilocks, i hadn't thought of it, but, with it's range of 300+ yards with a scope and 450gr TSX's at 2418+ fps and 500gr TBSS at 2350, a man could easily complete a safari with one rifle, all game, any angle, anywhere, from 1 to 325 yards.
Sir Allen, I would only return to Africa for elephant. I would go to Australia if I could cull a big bag of water buffalo. I hate bribing and tipping every step of the way and really prefer less of luxury camping and more of roughing it on my own say so. Whatever happens, the .458 WinMag be there.
Funny how some say that the ".458 WM is inadequate" and others say it is "overkill." Both concepts are oxymorons. If the crybabies cannot agree on that, the truth must be that the .458 Winchester Magnum is "just right," the Goldilocks rifle.
My pet load is one that I call the .458 Winchester Torpedo with a Lehigh 528 grain Match Solid over 83 grains of H335 and a COAL of 4.22 inches. Velocity out of a Ruger #1 is 2186 fps. It only works in non-magazine rifles, obviously. Energy is 5603 ft/lbs.
Gunner Yep the 458wm scoped can handle all your planned killin for you. The 300 hh and 220’s can be your walkabout partner. I can send you a box of 220 solids for it…
Fury, you bet, mighty 458 has it all covered, the old 300 H&H with solids would have me wanting to drill a Cape buffalo in the forehead LOL, how much you want for them? 220gr Woodleigh solids?
My pet load is one that I call the .458 Winchester Torpedo with a Lehigh 528 grain Match Solid over 83 grains of H335 and a COAL of 4.22 inches. Velocity out of a Ruger #1 is 2186 fps. It only works in non-magazine rifles, obviously. Energy is 5603 ft/lbs.
Damn, here's our 1000 yard steel gong load LOL, well done Maz,
220 Hornady solids. Copper over steel I think. Wdm Bell would love them. I’ll send them on a pay it forward deal. F01
LOL, hell of a deal Fury, and you can bet i'll pay it forward, many thanks Sir, you're gonna make me carry that receiver sighted 300 H&H just yet, it would be a no brainer if i were the type that would ask another to carry my spare rifle, alas i cant and wont even [tip] pay to have that done, were i the type, a quick grab of the mighty scope sighted 458 WM+ and any animal i couldn't get the irons from the 300 H&H would be in the salt!
If i take that 300 H&H and a big enough Cape Buffalo can be found and killed with the 458, you know i'm going to bust him in the hip with one of your solids and see how far they go, would be a hell of a deal if they went in at the back and gave a tracheotomy coming out the front.
My pet load is one that I call the .458 Winchester Torpedo with a Lehigh 528 grain Match Solid over 83 grains of H335 and a COAL of 4.22 inches. Velocity out of a Ruger #1 is 2186 fps. It only works in non-magazine rifles, obviously. Energy is 5603 ft/lbs.
The Maz,
You are Sir Maz here until you deny it. Buy a donkey for returning to The Mission here at The Square Table. I do recall your work, pressure tracing and all. Is about Mach 2 with that bullet good for accuracy with a 1:14" twist ? Subsonic use would require a faster twist. But how would your load do in a 1:10 Twist ? I gotta try that.
Buy a donkey for your two cents at the other website.. I am starting to realize that intellectual inbreeding occurs often on the internet. Good for some laughs is about all sometimes.
A .300 H&H and a .458 WM+ is for sure a great combo. A pair of 3.6" strokers is good. Mine is the .375 WBY and .458 WM+. My pair of 3.4" strokers would be the .300 WinMag and a .458 WinMag.
"Slug-jump" of C. Norman Brown's .35 Brown Whelen reamer at JGS = 0.095": Zero parallel-sided free-bore, leade starting at 0.361" base X 1*00'00" leade semi-angle.
Find a .358-caliber bullet around 225-gr to 250-gr with G1 BC of about 0.420 and download/restrict the .35 W+ to about 2500-2600 fps MV and VOILA ! Another set of ballistic training wheels for the .458 WM+ with 404-gr Shock Hammer, and trainer is loaded for bear to boot.
The .35 Whelen loaded long (.35 W+) can exceed the net case capacity of the .35 Brown Whelen with same bullet, since standard .35 Whelen gross case capacity = 73.3 grains (longer neck and narrower shoulder) and .35 Brown Whelen gross case capacity = 78.0 grains H2O. Both have max brass length of 2.494" and usual max COL 3.340". The .35 W+ wildcat beats the .35 BW wildcat.
gunner we are going to need a lot of pics, of your killing spree . I got my beer & popcorn on stand by LOL
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thanks Men, i've already sent the check for the videographer, good or bad it'll all be on video, will have to get Sir Ron or our buddy Pacecars to try and post the shots and any recovered bullet pics for data base building ; ]
I have no doubts what the 450gr TSX will do to Buffalo leaving at 2418+ fps, cant remember if the guys over at the Hammer Bullet site have someone set up to try Sir Rons 400gr Hammer bullet creation, if not, i could give it a go to if i can find a big buffalo.
A .300 H&H and a .458 WM+ is for sure a great combo. A pair of 3.6" strokers is good. Mine is the .375 WBY and .458 WM+. My pair of 3.4" strokers would be the .300 WinMag and a .458 WinMag.
3.6 Strokers, i like that Sir Ron, a lot of good choices, 264 and 338 WM hulls are perfect light lifters for the 458 WM+ as well, a lot of good stuff from Ma Winchester in that era.
I was glad to read Bob's blog on the Whelen. I too have thought about that Traditions light swing along but I have my old Springfield 35 Whelen with a 25.5" heavy barrel, Lyman Peep or a Heinsoldt 4x G&H scope mounts in that caliber today. Bought it 20+ years ago here in KS as one of the last two rifles in an estate that nobody seemed to want. As all the Whelens were made back in the 50's it has a "wildcat" chamber, as there was no standard at that time. Mine is a bit long but once you get the brass fitted, it fired the Barnes 225 X original at 2821 fps using AA 2015. The load was and is too hot for the old girl so not recommending that. However, look at the modern powders on the Speer site for some very nice loads if your searching for velocity. Of course you have to find Alliant Varmint powder or their 2000 series, maybe CFE 223 to get it done. I gave up searching for velocity in that faithful old friend and mostly shoot 280-290 Cast loads depending on alloy nowadays. I did load up some 250 Hornady sp's for Elk a couple of years ago but did not pull the trigger on one. She still takes her share of Whitetail just fine and 250 yards with Peep and BIG front sight work just fine for me. She fills the hand swinging along in the woods or over the prairie, both of us quite content. I did buy a keg of AA 2460 this winter and plan on giving it a try in my 35 Whelen and in, of course, the Magnificent and wonderful 458 WM Best regards,
Fury, that old Springfield sounds like a hell of a rifle, at dusk30 last night i sat a box up at 25 yards with a strip of black tape wearing a spray painted black dot on top, centered the old 300 H&H and gave it a gentle squeeze, center puched the tape, bullet landed around a half inch low of center on the ball, as i remember the trajectory of that rifle, that puts it at 3 inches high at 100, held 7 inches high and 6 inches into East wind of where i wanted the bullet to strike on my 300 yard gong, you guessed it, splat!................dead anything right there Sir, the 220gr partition leaves at 2750, that should handle any plains game animal if i can see it, even a big Eland or Zebra.
Sir Dennis, Yep, the plain ol'vanilla .35 Whelen gotterdun for me on a couple of 300- to 350-pound boars at a Tennessee game farm. One-shot-DRT-bang-flops, I now see my error in ever fiddling with the .35 Brown Whelen ... unless I was to put a scaled-down .458 WinMag throat on it. Then the .35 Brown Whelen would become worthwhile. As it is, the SAAMI .35 Whelen throat is all you need.
If you took the 404-gr Shock Hammer to Africa, you would need only one rifle. FN Solid bullets always go along, of course, for the south-end shots on north-headed game.
If you want me to send you some 404-gr Shock Hammers, you have to swear on Knight's Honor to make that bullet the first shot at a cape buffalo. Don't go and shoot it with a 450-gr TSX by mistake.
This would mean another load work up for your rifle, just when you thought you were ready to go. I would recommend keeping it simple by sticking to AA-2230 and for your rifle use 3.480" COL. AA-2460 will do the job too. 80.0 grains of either is where you start. Both will be close to 2500 fps in your 24" barrel. Maybe 5 fps slower and 1000 psi lower pressure and a little bulkier fill with AA-2460. You can work up from there, but might not need to change a thing. Hornady and W-W Super brass are interchangeable. F-215 and WLRM primers too.
Sir Ron, indeed, the 458 WM+ with either bullet will be a point and shoot to 250+ yards when zeroed 3 inches high at 100, one rifle safari easy as pie, trouble is i sure like using other rifles i have for light game animals there, if i wind up taking the 400gr Hammers they'll be the only soft bullets i bring for the 458, so no chance of a mess up, i agree with the 500gr TBSS solids, they'll be along in case, also have plenty of 2460 for another quick load workup, this may be a fun deal.......................for research and observation of course.
Hello Fury, got the 220gr Hornady solids in tonight's mail, many Thanks Sir, i loaded a test load with 65gr H-4831, will adjust powder charge on workup so they land with the 220gr partitions at 100 yards through the receiver sight, because of your generous gift, i have decided to take the old 300 H&H for plains game, little Wife volunteered to carry it so i can carry the scoped 458 WM+, a quick hand off as situations dictate will get it all handled, i expect these old Hornady solids to perform just fine, just like the old factory loaded 458 WM 500gr solids Sir Tony sent Sir Ron.
I sent some pics to Sir Ron, said he'd post em up for us tonight.
I ain't got the class of gunner500, but bear with me, we'll relate this back to the .458 WinMag eventually. I bought a .300 H&H Pre-'64 from a gunshop in Tallahassee, FL in 1990. Walt Sherman was a local gunsmith who re-barreled it to .375 H&H for me by 1991, with a Douglas stainless No. 3 sporter of 1:12" twist, left it in the walnut stock. It went to Alaska in 1992, kilt mah furst bar with that rifle. Had it put into a Brown Pounder stock and it went to Botswana in 2001. Kilt mah furst African plains game all with that rifle too. Then something came over me sometime after 2006 and I got a bee in my bonnet about my very own rifle caliber, the Three-Nine-Five. Five different wildcat cartridges exist of that caliber, that I know of, and I am to blame for all of them. The .395 H&H was the last of the five, believe it or not, on that Pre-'64 M70 .300 H&H action.
I jumped the shark with that one. My 3.6" stroker pair could just as well be a .395 H&H and a .458 WM+.
Since you are getting back to Africa before me, it would be magnanimous of you to use the 404-gr Shock Hammer on a cape buffalo. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. For science ! I can spare 3 boxes. Start with 81.0 grains of AA-2460 and use a drop tube, and COL of 3.480", W-W brass and F-215 primer. That might even be better than my AA-2230 loads. To be reviewed here while you are waiting to get the bullets.
Since you are getting back to Africa before me, it would be magnanimous of you to use the 404-gr Shock Hammer on a cape buffalo. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. For science ! I can spare 3 boxes. Start with 81.0 grains of AA-2460 and use a drop tube, and COL of 3.480", W-W brass and F-215 primer. That might even be better than my AA-2230 loads. To be reviewed here while you are waiting to get the bullets.
Yessir Sir Ron, will be glad to hunt my tail off looking for a big bull to bust with the 400gr Hammers, i greatly appreciate the gift as well, will start at 81gr 2460, will be looking for an accurate 2500-2550 fps, ten four on the 3.480" COL, also Thanks for posting the pics of the old 300 H&H, it's a great rifle and one of my favorites, it does indeed need to go for some plains game, will be looking forward to your review with the 2230.
I'll sleep easier tonight Gunner knowing the old faithful girl is being carried afield on the Dark Continent with a solid in reserve.
LOL, Thanks again Fury, i loaded up to 68.5gr H-4831 under those 220gr solids you sent me, they crossed the chrono at 2699 fps, man that's going to be a major hole driller, i'll shoot them side by side with the 220gr npt's and see where they land.
Since you are getting back to Africa before me, it would be magnanimous of you to use the 404-gr Shock Hammer on a cape buffalo. Couldn't happen to a nicer guy. For science ! I can spare 3 boxes. Start with 81.0 grains of AA-2460 and use a drop tube, and COL of 3.480", W-W brass and F-215 primer. That might even be better than my AA-2230 loads. To be reviewed here while you are waiting to get the bullets.
Yessir Sir Ron, will be glad to hunt my tail off looking for a big bull to bust with the 400gr Hammers, i greatly appreciate the gift as well, will start at 81gr 2460, will be looking for an accurate 2500-2550 fps, ten four on the 3.480" COL, also Thanks for posting the pics of the old 300 H&H, it's a great rifle and one of my favorites, it does indeed need to go for some plains game, will be looking forward to your review with the 2230.
On the burn rate chart that I'm looking at it is 2230 and then 2460. They are side by side, must be very simular burn rate
Yes, Sir Ron says about half the granules of the 2230 are slightly flattened somewhat altering burn rates between the two powders, i look at both as being slow burners for straight walled 458 WM+.
Prior to 2016 - when 2230 and 2460 were "reborn", I tested those powders along with H335 and H4895 (plus a few others). 2230 was significantly faster than H335 which was very close to 2460. Two grains more of 2460 gave nearly identical results of H335 from my tests shooting the 500gr Hornady in a CZ 550 (25" barrel).
My current understanding is that both the reformulated 2230 and 2460 are now made in the same plant in St Marks, Fl as H335. It's the only plant in N.A. that makes ball powders. I know as a fact, that for several years H335 made in the St Marks plant is significantly different from the "old" H335 that some complained about as "dirty" and not temp resistant. See Hornady on that powder for both the .458 Win and Lott.
I've used H335 in several .45-70s and in the CZ 550 in .458, and now my Ruger #1H, and it is, if not the best, then certainly one of the best! Not dirty nor unstable with changes in temps from summer to winter.
Since TAC and H335 have near identical burn rates, and since TAC has proven its worth in today's .35 Whelen, I intend to give H335 a try in my new .35 Whelen. It's burn rate is similar to H4895, which is stellar in both the .35 Whelen and .458 Win Mag.
And, Sir Jerry, I, too, am greatly interested in your African hunt, wishing you God's best and great success!
Prior to 2016 - when 2230 and 2460 were "reborn", I tested those powders along with H335 and H4895 (plus a few others). 2230 was significantly faster than H335 which was very close to 2460. Two grains more of 2460 gave nearly identical results of H335 from my tests shooting the 500gr Hornady in a CZ 550 (25" barrel).
My current understanding is that both the reformulated 2230 and 2460 are now made in the same plant in St Marks, Fl as H335. It's the only plant in N.A. that makes ball powders. I know as a fact, that for several years H335 made in the St Marks plant is significantly different from the "old" H335 that some complained about as "dirty" and not temp resistant. See Hornady on that powder for both the .458 Win and Lott.
I've used H335 in several .45-70s and in the CZ 550 in .458, and now my Ruger #1H, and it is, if not the best, then certainly one of the best! Not dirty nor unstable with changes in temps from summer to winter.
Since TAC and H335 have near identical burn rates, and since TAC has proven its worth in today's .35 Whelen, I intend to give H335 a try in my new .35 Whelen. It's burn rate is similar to H4895, which is stellar in both the .35 Whelen and .458 Win Mag.
And, Sir Jerry, I, too, am greatly interested in your African hunt, wishing you God's best and great success!
Thanks for the powder history enlightenment lesson Sir Bob, i have used H-335 in sammi spec'd 458 WM for more than 30 years, have a giant bag of 500gr partitions loaded up, they run 2160 from an old FN Browning Safari with 24" barrel, i need to get that setup to Africa after this trip, Thanks for the well wishes too Sir, it's going to be a great hunt, especially learning what Sir Rons brainchild of a bullet in the 400gr Hammer does to buffalo, i'll be looking for an accurate 2500+ fps with 2460 powder.
Damn good shooting with the 2230/Hammer combo Sir Ron, and Thanks for posting the pic, i'll send proof i've had my old 300 H&H and Africa on my mind for 20 years! it coupled with the 458 WM+ is a fine combination.
Loaded over 19 years ago. Must have had Africa with a .300 H&H on his mind for 20 years.
And proof that prices have risen on propellants, let's go Brandon and the horse he rode in on. $40 dollars a pound is gladly paid nowadays, if you can find the powder you want:
Some nickled R-P brass for the 404g/.458 Shock Hammer:
Starting at 78.0 gr of AA-2460 and working up is the wise thing to do with this component change. Sir Jerry's plan.
So many powders recently developed for the .223/5.56 etc. cartridges and they are all perfect for the .458 WM. Maybe not planned that way but it has happened ! And so many of the oldies are goldies too. No excuse for not being able to load a .458 WM. Even if we have to make our own BP and primers and cast our own bullets, the .458 WM is better than any other cart for that, all things considered. I would probably draw the line at having to convert .458 WM rifles to flintlock.
404g Hammer and smokeless cartridges do have some advantages.
Yessir, 20 years Sir Ron, looks like some of the adhesive on the Cabelas stickers is bleeding through, those rounds have been sitting on a safe top patiently waiting for too long, i'm going to use those loads on this hunt, brass is new and i know all components are still sound, it's time to get the old girl over for some light work, 458 WM+ and 404gr Hammers will handle the heavy lifting, speaking of, and iirc you said a b.c. of .419, if so and 2500 fps reached, +3 at 100 should be no lower than 7 inches at 300 yards and maybe around a foot at 325, vel should still be 1900 fps at 325, hope they would open at that speed, bet they would.
That nickle R-P brass is brand new, i FL sized then measured it, lengths were all over the place from 2.492 to 2.499, trimmed it all at 2.492, i'll still have plenty of working room with the 2460 drop tubed in with a COL of 3.480, she's gonna be a bitch burner of a load, Mr. Davis at Hammer bullets told me today to slam the biggest Buffalo i could find dead through both shoulders, i said even at 15 yards? YESSIR he said, then asked for video of the event, i'll get it to him on return.
I also had a lot of fun today loading that 40 pack of 2700 fps Fury-ous drill bits!
Old times. Look at the box the 220 H solids were in. I bought 7 boxes, 700, of them 10'ish years ago from a Classified Ad on the other website. He said he had a whole bunch more of them, but when I reached back out a few years later, he had made the trip over the Great Mountain Pass and all his stuff was gone.
I am stirring the pot at the B&M site as well as the Hammer site. They are on notice of gunner500's upcoming safari video of a Shock Hammer strike on a cape buffalo, Lord willin' and the creeks don't rise.
Good stuff Fury, Thanks again for the bullets Sir.
Sir Ron, yes, 40 bucks i paid for the H-4831 in a neighboring lgs, my old powder Bud treats me much nicer, 'more proof' on the way LOL, glad you're keeping a fire lit on other sites about the 404 Hammer/458 WM+ deal, i cant wait.
Use the .35 Whelen with 225-gr Nosler partition to duplicate trajectory of the .458 WM+ with 404g Shock Hammer. Sir Bob's latest:
That is a about a six-pounder with 22" barrel that I assume includes the length of the brake.
The CVA is an 8-pounder with 25" barrel that does indeed include the brake and scope base, Comes with a thread protector and it is 7#13oz and 23-1/4" with thread protector instead of brake. Muzzle diameter is 0.835" where it meets the brake/thread-protector. Pretty thick, though also fluted. Overall length of rifle is 40" with brake and 38-1/4" with thread protector replacing brake. LOP is 14.0" as shown here:
I wonder what the Traditions Outfitter muzzle diameter is where it meets the brake ? Amazingly light and handy that one.
LOL! all good here Sir Tony and 44MC, i stay on a slow simmer patiently awaiting liftoff, plenty of time to focus on the task [hunt] at hand, while very thrilling and much fun to go, a man absolutely has to place those shots with the upmost accuracy, that's job number one for me.
Sir Ron, Yes! 2460 is going to be a great fuel for the 404gr Hammer, i'll use the new can on the bullets you're sending, the rest of the old lot [near 1.5lbs in one can] will be used for the 450gr TSX/500gr TBSS loads as i have established it's load max with these bullets, my old powder bud is a retired postman and wont penalize me for 35 years of being a customer, not like nosler and sps!
Speaking of those 35W single shooters, i was at my 'Smiths yesterday too, i asked him what he ever did with that box of 310gr 358 cal Woodleigh Weldcores i gave him, he said giving them back to you, walked over to a shelf in the shop and handed them back to me, i believe those bullets loaded max in the 35 Whelen would be an all game basher out to 200 yards, and if allowed, would handily dispatch a Cape Buffalo, 2400 fps maybe possible with today's newer powders would do the deal.
LOL Sir Tony, you bet, man did i ever send Sir Ron a load of sweetness in pictures a couple hours ago, one thing about the 458 WM+, work up to max velocity and the thing is going to be a shooter, wait till you see the group i got with a 5-6 mph wind out of the S/SW firing dew North, holy damn those bullets shoot!
Steve Davis at Hammer bullets told me to slam the biggest buffalo i could find right in the shoulders, i asked even at 15 yards? YES, he said! ; ] if those bullets perform like they say they will, it's a done deal.
Nice work indeed and speedy ! Sir Jerry wasted no time, gotterdun pronto. He is ready and willin', now just waitin' for a cape buffalo. How he got started on the warp speed workup:
100-yard three-shot group was wind aided on one of the three holes. I'd say Sir Jerry has it pretty well zeroed for 3" high at 100 yards. No better hunter-shooter exists to blood the 404g Shock Hammer on cape buffalo for the first time.
100-yard three-shot group was wind aided on one of the three holes. I'd say Sir Jerry has it pretty well zeroed for 3" high at 100 yards. No better hunter-shooter exists to blood the 404g Shock Hammer on cape buffalo for the first time.
That’s a fact! That chrono should write a book it’s had so much variety over it
Yes indeed Sir Ron, good stuff, i bet if you checked the delivered time stamp from FedX until i fired you off the first round of pics was less than an hour, i dropped everything i was doing and went straight to the load shop! it all came together very easy, didn't bother with wasting bullets checking e.s. numbers, looks like it would have been a waste, didnt measure the group either, but, if we take .458" off center to center it's mighty small, and those bullets landing where the 450 TSX's land surprised me, who was it that said the 375 H&H was the only round that fired differing bullet weights in the same spot at 100 yards? LOL. This is going to be a really fun hunt/project, FOR SCIENCE!.
44MC, you got it Sir, no charges at all.
LOL Big B, yes, that's why that chrono is so dirty, bet it's still coughing black powder dust and grease cookie smoke from the big Sharps rifles ; ]
BTW, Sir Ron, i bet i'll have the 2500 fps vel in 95 degree Africa, 83gr 2460 is about all i could get into the nickel RP hulls, AA 2230 will give 2500 here right now and more over there, but dang i'm enjoying the lower pressures of 2460, just look how round those primers are, cases literally fell from the chamber, i also loaded the fired hulls right back into the chamber, no resistance, 55 degrees at shooting and 555' elevation here at the farm, 2500' elevation at the little bush camp up on The Limpopo for even a little flatter shooting than here.
God dang hard rock grinding bush hog blades to sharpen anyway, i'll put those back on this evening, now to more important things LOL, hell yeah Big B, both great powders, glad you grabbed some up, the trip is going to be a blast and thanks for the compliments on ole rube goldberg the mighty 458 WM+, that dang JES cut a hell of a rebore job, that thing shoots like it has a pac-nor super match barrel, threading the needle in the thick mopani thorn thickets will be cake if needed, i think the 404 Hammer will handle the rest.
JWP, perfect compact powder that builds a lot of power in the 458 case, particularly shooting the long 450 TSX with a COL of 3.310"
Heck, I just hope my rifles live up to the accuracy potential of the Hammer 404. Personal for my use, I could live comfortably with 2300 fps for my distances. But, like most; I will certainly take more velocity if it is to be had.
Shoot yeah LD, you'll be there, one thing about these big bores and shooting big animals this side of 300 yards, a two inch group at 100 will easily cover what needs done, one other thing i'll bet, even if you hit a moose or big brown bear at 2300 with a 400gr Hammer both will hit the ground, fast!
Shoot yeah LD, you'll be there, one thing about these big bores and shooting big animals this side of 300 yards, a two inch group at 100 will easily cover what needs done, one other thing i'll bet, even if you hit a moose or big brown bear at 2300 with a 400gr Hammer both will hit the ground, fast!
Boy would that be cool. Might have to find a McMillan for my 458
100-yard three-shot group was wind aided on one of the three holes. I'd say Sir Jerry has it pretty well zeroed for 3" high at 100 yards. No better hunter-shooter exists to blood the 404g Shock Hammer on cape buffalo for the first time.
That’s a fact! That chrono should write a book it’s had so much variety over it
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Use the .35 Whelen with 225-gr Nosler partition to duplicate trajectory of the .458 WM+ with 404g Shock Hammer. Sir Bob's latest:
That is a about a six-pounder with 22" barrel that I assume includes the length of the brake.
The CVA is an 8-pounder with 25" barrel that does indeed include the brake and scope base, Comes with a thread protector and it is 7#13oz and 23-1/4" with thread protector instead of brake. Muzzle diameter is 0.835" where it meets the brake/thread-protector. Pretty thick, though also fluted. Overall length of rifle is 40" with brake and 38-1/4" with thread protector replacing brake. LOP is 14.0" as shown here:
I wonder what the Traditions Outfitter muzzle diameter is where it meets the brake ? Amazingly light and handy that one.
Thanks Sir Ron for pointing out that the .35 Whelen is equivalent to the .35 Brown Whelen when bullets are seated long in the standard Whelen, I'd wondered about that. I've a friend at www.35cal.com with a .35 BW, along with a cabinet full of .35s. I introduced him to the idea of a .35 Whelen many, many years ago when he wanted to build his first rifle.
Anyway, the Traditions is 39" OL with the brake and 37" without it. Also, the brake is the same outside diameter as the muzzle, not as shown in the pic. Likely, in its original form, the muzzle brake was as in the pic. With a 2-8 x 32mm scope mounted with base and rings it weighs 7.25 lbs. I'll soon be posting a photo in an upcoming blog. It's been to the range this past Monday for getting on paper at 50 yards. Eight rounds, total, were loaded. It took four to get a 200gr Hornady on paper, and somewhere near center. It was no fun trying to bore sight a break-action. The four 200gr Hornady SPs were loaded over 60 grains of H4895 - not over the Chrony as I just wanted to get the scope setup somewhere near center of target at 50 yards. Estimated MV was 2850 fps. The next four, without any adjustments to the scope, hit a bit lower and left of center. They were the 225gr X-Bullet over 67 grains of RL-17. Estimated MV at 2700 fps. WLRM primers used throughout.
Felt recoil wasn't bad at all, both loads calculated around 27 to 29 ft-lbs with the muzzle brake. My new Walkers worked great! The rifle has excellent balance. The break-action is still a bit stiff but is improving with working it at home. The only negative at the range is one that I also experience with the Ruger No.1H in .458 - the trigger guard whacks my middle finger of my shooting hand under recoil at the bench, which I've not noticed in offhand shooting in the bush. But for the Ruger, I put a guard on the finger, and will do the same for the Traditions. I have small hands and the reach from the pistol grip to the trigger is a bit of a stretch for my trigger finger which is second in shortness of the four - the shortest being the little finger. If I consciously grip the pistol grip with force, the middle finger doesn't get whacked. But I have arthritis in that hand. I'll just remember to wear some kind of protection. Other than that, I very much like the rifle.
Those were not max loads in new Remington brass, and all eight had the same case head measurements after firing, and primers all had the same appearance, indicating stable pressures that were not extreme. So I was satisfied with that initial outing of the Traditions OUTFITTER G3.
Thought some might like to know some details of the first trial at the range.
Shoot yeah LD, you'll be there, one thing about these big bores and shooting big animals this side of 300 yards, a two inch group at 100 will easily cover what needs done, one other thing i'll bet, even if you hit a moose or big brown bear at 2300 with a 400gr Hammer both will hit the ground, fast!
Boy would that be cool. Might have to find a McMillan for my 458
Mickey that mother, pillar and steel bed everything, action tang, full length barrel channel, bottom metal, she'll shoot Big B, i have a standard COL 458WM on a 98 mauser that way, 3X heavy #4 reticle leupold in leupold short lever qd bases and rings, 500gr partitions at only 2160, but damn, that should do.
Shoot yeah LD, you'll be there, one thing about these big bores and shooting big animals this side of 300 yards, a two inch group at 100 will easily cover what needs done, one other thing i'll bet, even if you hit a moose or big brown bear at 2300 with a 400gr Hammer both will hit the ground, fast!
Boy would that be cool. Might have to find a McMillan for my 458
Mickey that mother, pillar and steel bed everything, action tang, full length barrel channel, bottom metal, she'll shoot Big B, i have a standard COL 458WM on a 98 mauser that way, 3X heavy #4 reticle leupold in leupold short lever qd bases and rings, 500gr partitions at only 2160, but damn, that should do.
That is pretty tempting Gunner. Your singing my song.
Thanks for the moral support at the Hammer Bullets site. Will see if anybody tries to bite YOUR ankle there. Nah, we are past that point now, in large part thanks to your "participation."
Having specialized in the .458 WM, I am now developing a subspecialty in 400-gr bullets for the .458 WM and .458 WM+ "wildcat." I am getting nostalgic about it already, remembering all the 400-gr bullets I have known. The quest for a proper 400-gr FN solid is ongoing. Doing good ain't got no end.
Sir Bob, After reading your blog on the .35 Whelen Traditions Outfitter,
I finally succumbed to a CVA Scout of same caliber.
It too seems to be a quality piece, great for the price. I will follow your work on the .35 Whelen with great interest.
I pulled out a tote of .358 bullets from a shelf in the garage, about 50 pounds of these: 300-gr Barnes Original RNSP 275-gr Barnes Original SpSP 250-gr Nosler, Swift, Hornady, Speer 225-gr Nosler 200-gr Barnes X & Sierra "Pro-Hunter"
Some are near perfect BC match for the 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer, about 0.420. Good for training aiming memory. All are good for just flat-out huntin' anything they are legal for.
Sir Bob, After reading your blog on the .35 Whelen Traditions Outfitter,
I finally succumbed to a CVA Scout of same caliber.
It too seems to be a quality piece, great for the price. I will follow your work on the .35 Whelen with great interest.
I pulled out a tote of .358 bullets from a shelf in the garage, about 50 pounds of these: 300-gr Barnes Original RNSP 275-gr Barnes Original SpSP 250-gr Nosler, Swift, Hornady, Speer 225-gr Nosler 200-gr Barnes X & Sierra "Pro-Hunter"
Some are near perfect BC match for the 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer, about 0.420. Good for training aiming memory. All are good for just flat-out huntin' anything they are legal for.
Those are a pile of great bullets
JWP is right about the 220 Hammer. Accurate as hell as well.
I’ve liked and used the Whelen since about 2003. To me, it’s been super easy to load for and while it’s not a sleep 338 it has been a workhorse on elk and even a few bucks.
Thanks for the moral support at the Hammer Bullets site. Will see if anybody tries to bite YOUR ankle there. Nah, we are past that point now, in large part thanks to your "participation."
Having specialized in the .458 WM, I am now developing a subspecialty in 400-gr bullets for the .458 WM and .458 WM+ "wildcat." I am getting nostalgic about it already, remembering all the 400-gr bullets I have known. The quest for a proper 400-gr FN solid is ongoing. Doing good ain't got no end.
That is good to hear ! Wow, for awhile there, Ron had the patience of Job.
Thanks for the moral support at the Hammer Bullets site. Will see if anybody tries to bite YOUR ankle there. Nah, we are past that point now, in large part thanks to your "participation."
Having specialized in the .458 WM, I am now developing a subspecialty in 400-gr bullets for the .458 WM and .458 WM+ "wildcat." I am getting nostalgic about it already, remembering all the 400-gr bullets I have known. The quest for a proper 400-gr FN solid is ongoing. Doing good ain't got no end.
You're most welcome Sir Ron, it's my pleasure, many Thanks to you again for the bullets, i'll put them to very good use, storms on the way, but when weather clears i'll make another homemade hartebeest and see where the 404gr Hammers land clear out to 400 yards, if the Hammer boys will turn you some 400gr flat nosed solids you'd be set for all game, including your return to Africa for Elephant.
Thinking about doing a long thought of 458 Winchester project. Re-barrel a Mark II 300 Winchester to 458 Winchester. Use the 416 Ruger barrel contour at a 22" length. Prospect donor rifle seems to feed the 458's fine.
Thinking about doing a long thought of 458 Winchester project. Re-barrel a Mark II 300 Winchester to 458 Winchester. Use the 416 Ruger barrel contour at a 22" length. Prospect donor rifle seems to feed the 458's fine.
That'll work LDM, i was wondering what kind of a 500 yard all game killer we could come up with if i could talk JWP into letting JES 458 bore his CZ 416 Rigby, talk about an ass kicker 450 Rigby Magnum with 404gr Hammers at 2950 fps and COL of 3.650 inch LOL!
Thinking about doing a long thought of 458 Winchester project. Re-barrel a Mark II 300 Winchester to 458 Winchester. Use the 416 Ruger barrel contour at a 22" length. Prospect donor rifle seems to feed the 458's fine.
That'll work LDM, i was wondering what kind of a 500 yard all game killer we could come up with if i could talk JWP into letting JES 458 bore his CZ 416 Rigby, talk about an ass kicker 450 Rigby Magnum with 404gr Hammers at 2950 fps and COL of 3.650 inch LOL!
Jeeeeeeze..... I can't imagine that sorta thunder....
Thinking about doing a long thought of 458 Winchester project. Re-barrel a Mark II 300 Winchester to 458 Winchester. Use the 416 Ruger barrel contour at a 22" length. Prospect donor rifle seems to feed the 458's fine.
That'll work LDM, i was wondering what kind of a 500 yard all game killer we could come up with if i could talk JWP into letting JES 458 bore his CZ 416 Rigby, talk about an ass kicker 450 Rigby Magnum with 404gr Hammers at 2950 fps and COL of 3.650 inch LOL!
Jeeeeeeze..... I can't imagine that sorta thunder....
Already thinking about doing that. That would put new meaning to the word HAMMER
Thinking about doing a long thought of 458 Winchester project. Re-barrel a Mark II 300 Winchester to 458 Winchester. Use the 416 Ruger barrel contour at a 22" length. Prospect donor rifle seems to feed the 458's fine.
That'll work LDM, i was wondering what kind of a 500 yard all game killer we could come up with if i could talk JWP into letting JES 458 bore his CZ 416 Rigby, talk about an ass kicker 450 Rigby Magnum with 404gr Hammers at 2950 fps and COL of 3.650 inch LOL!
Gunner, now That would be a sho-enough thumper. Near and far, big or small.
LOL, Hell yeah LDM, being that the 450 RM is a bottleneck, and in this case firing a 400gr bullet instead of 500, and being that the 458 WM+ thrives on 2460, lets move on down the burn rate chart to the slower powders, we could stop in and visit CFE-223/Power Pro 2000, if no love is found drop on down to Hybrid 100V and 6.5 Staball, both are slower than all the 4350's as well as RL-17, if that don't work we can bring the pain with a heavy coat, drop tube and RL-22/26, 7828, H-1000, Retumbo, etc, etc.................oh, and don't forget the gallon of ice cold liquid Advil!
LOL, Hell yeah LDM, being that the 450 RM is a bottleneck, and in this case firing a 400gr bullet instead of 500, and being that the 458 WM+ thrives on 2460, lets move on down the burn rate chart to the slower powders, we could stop in and visit CFE-223/Power Pro 2000, if no love is found drop on down to Hybrid 100V and 6.5 Staball, both are slower than all the 4350's as well as RL-17, if that don't work we can bring the pain with a heavy coat, drop tube and RL-22/26, 7828, H-1000, Retumbo, etc, etc.................oh, and don't forget the gallon of ice cold liquid Advil!
I don't think a bottle neck cartridge would need a 65% meplat for feeding. Probably go 70 to 80 percent and really bring on the slap down with mono solids. Hell yeah!
LOL, Hell yeah LDM, being that the 450 RM is a bottleneck, and in this case firing a 400gr bullet instead of 500, and being that the 458 WM+ thrives on 2460, lets move on down the burn rate chart to the slower powders, we could stop in and visit CFE-223/Power Pro 2000, if no love is found drop on down to Hybrid 100V and 6.5 Staball, both are slower than all the 4350's as well as RL-17, if that don't work we can bring the pain with a heavy coat, drop tube and RL-22/26, 7828, H-1000, Retumbo, etc, etc.................oh, and don't forget the gallon of ice cold liquid Advil!
You’re nuts big feller!
I’ll just be over here shooting my pipsqueak loads
LOL, Hell yeah LDM, being that the 450 RM is a bottleneck, and in this case firing a 400gr bullet instead of 500, and being that the 458 WM+ thrives on 2460, lets move on down the burn rate chart to the slower powders, we could stop in and visit CFE-223/Power Pro 2000, if no love is found drop on down to Hybrid 100V and 6.5 Staball, both are slower than all the 4350's as well as RL-17, if that don't work we can bring the pain with a heavy coat, drop tube and RL-22/26, 7828, H-1000, Retumbo, etc, etc.................oh, and don't forget the gallon of ice cold liquid Advil!
You’re nuts big feller!
I’ll just be over here shooting my pipsqueak loads
Buy a donkey all Sirs of the Square Table. A drove of donkeys to all ! Sir Woods has done the 500-yard game shooting with a 460 Weatherby and the Barnes monometal copper 400-grainers. Digging up some of his load data is a on the table for the hairy-chested. I have a greater love for the more gentlemanly 400-grainer at 2500 fps and 300 yards though the 404g Shock Hammer approaching 3000 fps in a sporting rifle does have some charm. Why not a crew-served .458 Steyr for approaching 4000 fps ? Kirby Allen's .458 Maximus or some such on the .505 Gibbs case should get past Mach 3 easy-peasy and single-man portable.
We are going to have to start over with the Greek alphabet when the 400-gr Flathead Solid is available for alphabetical listing:
LOL, Hell yeah LDM, being that the 450 RM is a bottleneck, and in this case firing a 400gr bullet instead of 500, and being that the 458 WM+ thrives on 2460, lets move on down the burn rate chart to the slower powders, we could stop in and visit CFE-223/Power Pro 2000, if no love is found drop on down to Hybrid 100V and 6.5 Staball, both are slower than all the 4350's as well as RL-17, if that don't work we can bring the pain with a heavy coat, drop tube and RL-22/26, 7828, H-1000, Retumbo, etc, etc.................oh, and don't forget the gallon of ice cold liquid Advil!
You’re nuts big feller!
I’ll just be over here shooting my pipsqueak loads
I am fighting the urge to take up the 460 Weatherby again, just for stunt shooting fun with the 404g ShockHammer at 3000 fps. But I am just having too much fun with the .458 Winchester Magnum.
A .458 WM on a Ruger No. 1 with 1:10" twist would be most practical for the VLD loads at 1000 yard targets. Also works for stubbier bullets of all weights for subsonic with suppressor can. 24" barrel on a Ruger No. 1 is about like a 20" barrel on a bolt action for overall length.
Pros: In the Ruger No.1 the 404g Shock Hammer at 3.580" COL would not be too delicate for nimble-fingered load at 2600 fps, and lower pressure than in the SAAMI .458 Lott. Ditto the 528-gr Lehigh brass match bullet at about 4.250" COL and 2200 fps, with screw-on muzzle brake. Delicate: The 300-gr Sierra ProHunter at 1000 fps, with 46 Bushwacker suppressor for head shots on small game. Near 100% meplat FN solid is not a feeding problem in a Ruger No. 1, and it will leave a mark on the game for sure.
Con: Twist of 1:10" would not be good for cast lead, but might work with 600-grain cast bullets at 800 fps, heh, heh. But we all have the 1:14" for cast bullet work, and 1:18" or 1:20" have been used with the .458 WM throat too.
Plenty to do yet with the .458 WM. The mind boggles when considering all the possibilities of .458-caliber bullet weights and makes from 250-grainer to 600-grainer and beyond.
Just to make it mentally manageable, that sample of 400-grain bullets will be broken down to classes of bullets below, listing each make with its Bullet Overall Length. Each sample of one bullet was coon-fingered and calipered by yours truly.
A. Remington FNSN BOL 0.998" B. Speer FNSN BOL 0.968" C. Barnes Original FNSN BOL 1.045" D. Barnes Original SSSP BOL 1.168" E. Swift A-Frame BOL 1.160" F. Woodleigh PPSN BOL 1.153" G. North Fork SSP BOL 1.294"
Second cannelures were added to E and F above. Seated shallowly with 3.425" COL, the Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN gave +2600 fps MV. 2500 fps is recommended maximum impact velocity for the Woodleigh (E). The North Fork (G) has no such limit, and needs no extra cannelures added, has plenty to pick from in its micro grooves.
H. Barnes X-Bullet Gen-1 BOL 1.354" I. Barnes X-FB Gen-2 BOL 1.355" J. Barnes X-FB Cannelured Gen-3 BOL 1.343" K. Barnes TSX-FB BOL 1.388" L. GSC HV BOL 1.440" M. Hammer Shock Hammer BOL 1.441"
The pinnacle of monometal copper soft point bullet development is the Hammer (M).
You just kinda got me thinking RC. I used to use that 400 grain Speer in the 45-70 around 1800. They were terrific bullets on deer. Kinda like a wad of bubble gum. I'd bet they'd stone a buck with some terrific energy of that fast expanding bullet at 458 sorta speeds.
What would be your pick for a deer bullet? Might try something with my Ruger #1 45-90.. That's kinda the next up on the loading block.
Sir Scotty, Any of them will do for deer. But that Speer is softer than the Remington. The Speer ought not be loaded any faster than 1800 fps MV. I have used 400-gr monometal copper on deer at +2500 fps MV (HV) and ~2350 fps MV (TSX), both with about 150-yard hits. Zips right through and causes a bang-flop at whatever angle of the shot. Of the two classes, leaded and non-leaded, my favorites would be North Fork 400-gr and Hammer 404-gr.
Continuing with some 400-ish-grain cast lead bullets below, also totally adequate for deer in a SAAMI .458 WinMag ...
N. Lee Hollow Base (459-405-HB) BOL 1.085" (405-gr in WW alloy, 373-gr in Linotype) O. Accurate Molds 46-410-M SOCOM BOL 1.097" (418-gr in WW alloy with PC paint and GC) P. Accurate Molds 46-410-M SOCOM BOL 1.105" (407-gr in BHN 25 alloy with PC paint and GC) Q. Accurate Molds 46-425-PG BOL BOL 1.240" (433-gr in WW alloy with PC paint and GC) P. Accurate Molds 46-425-PG BOL BOL 1.245" (411-gr in Linotype with PC paint and GC)
The 407-gr SOCOM (P) above is my favorite but all could have uses.
The 250-grain Hornady, 258-gr CEB, 300-gr CEB, 300-gr Hammers too ! So as not to get mind boggled, I am sticking with 400-grainers today. Bubba prefers to use 500-gr TSX to make these exactly 400.0-gr bullets, since that is no great loss. Cutting and drilling, reaming and chamfering a 450-gr TSX into a 400-grainer borders on unethical.
For the 400-gr X-TSX bullets by Bubba, 5 grooves means made from a 500-gr TSX. 4 grooves means made from a 450-gr TSX:
S. 400-gr X-TSX BOL 1.170" T. 400-gr X-TSX BOL 1.165" U. 400-gr X-TSX BOL 1.301" V. 400-gr X-TSX BOL 1.350" W. 400-gr X-TSX BOL 1.400"
400-gr X-TSX (W) made from a 500-gr TSX was preferred before there was a 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Finally, the 400-grain "solid" bullets, slim pickings:
X. Barnes Buster FN BOL 1.079" Y. Thompson Center Bone Crusher BOL 1.148" Z. BBMT's X-BBS Brass FN BOL 1.233"
The Barnes Buster has copper jacket filled with soft lead, with the FN meplat having a central pinhole sometimes visible. It will bulge the nose on impact at 2500 fps, might even rupture. Best at hot .45-70 Gov't. impact velocities.
The TC Bone Crusher comes from TC in a plastic sabot for use in .50-cal muzzleloaders. I SWAG it was made by Hornady for TC. It has the same construction as the Hornady "Encapsulated Solid" with RN brass/bronze capsule and copper base plug around lead core. That was abandoned when Hornady developed their ogived-FN DGS "solid" with steel jacket. The Bone Crusher being a round-nosed "solid" is bound to veer inside game even if it does not expand or fragment. The shortness of the bullet is its only plus for stability inside game. Funny thing that the Bone Crusher when crimped on the existing factory cannelure will give a 3.340" COL in the .458 WM. It must be an abandoned Hornady design for the .458 WM that TC bought out for stuffing muzzleloaders. Bless their hearts.
Thus Bubba had to cut off the "Barnes Banded Solids" to make a 400-gr brass FN. Either 450-gr or 500-gr BBS may be used. Bubba notes that the brass is easier to work with a bastard file than copper. He stopped at 400.2 grains on the specimen shown here. No nose-hole to ream or drill to get it exactly 400.0 grains. And the rebated base makes it hard to chamfer in 0.1 grain weight reduction increments. Breaking the sharp edge is about all that can be done, but it seats easily for hand loading. Bubba is going to be out of business if Hammer ever brings out the copper FN solid "Alpha Bullet."
I have been a bit preoccupied in helping my Wife deal with the death of her Mother. Will have to make another trip to Florida soon to square away some things. I am hoping Easter may be a great comfort for my Wife, she being a Methodist Minister's daughter and knowing both her parents are now gone to be with Jesus. The celebration of the resurrection of the .458 Winchester Magnum will continue in the Happy Hunting Ground also. Jesus has already built a Square Table there for the true believers. The Lottites will have some 'spaining to do, to Saint Peter at The Pearly Gates.
Thanks RC. I loaded the 250 FTX's at 2975 in my 458, no usage on bucks yet, but man they bust the hell outta rocks!
The 250gr MonoFlex (monometal) is in the docket for a bear... sighted, etc. A modest amount of 5744 gives it 2610 fps from my Ruger No.1H.
Since my former Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT would have been nearly identical to your 45-90 in use and effect, I loaded the 300gr TSX at 2650 fps for bear.
(Hope this doesn't detract from Sir Ron's excellent presentations on the all-around usefulness of 400s, especially the 404 Hammer, which I'd sure like to locate somewhere North of The Border!)
Thanks RC. I loaded the 250 FTX's at 2975 in my 458, no usage on bucks yet, but man they bust the hell outta rocks!
The 250gr MonoFlex (monometal) is in the docket for a bear... sighted, etc. A modest amount of 5744 gives it 2610 fps from my Ruger No.1H.
Since my former Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT would have been nearly identical to your 45-90 in use and effect, I loaded the 300gr TSX at 2650 fps for bear.
(Hope this doesn't detract from Sir Ron's excellent presentations on the all-around usefulness of 400s, especially the 404 Hammer, which I'd sure like to locate somewhere North of The Border!)
Thanks RC. I loaded the 250 FTX's at 2975 in my 458, no usage on bucks yet, but man they bust the hell outta rocks!
The 250gr MonoFlex (monometal) is in the docket for a bear... sighted, etc. A modest amount of 5744 gives it 2610 fps from my Ruger No.1H.
Since my former Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT would have been nearly identical to your 45-90 in use and effect, I loaded the 300gr TSX at 2650 fps for bear.
(Hope this doesn't detract from Sir Ron's excellent presentations on the all-around usefulness of 400s, especially the 404 Hammer, which I'd sure like to locate somewhere North of The Border!)
It’s very accurate in my rifle. I’d bet out to 300 or so it should be a good killer.
Need to run it into some jugs and see how it holds up to the speed.
No detraction at all Sir Bob. King .458 Winchester has instructed his hand to review the load data of Sir Scotty and that of Hand of the King, yours truly. Reference is also given to a load that was pressure-tested by Sir Michael at MIB. It was a CEB 250-grainer, but does illustrate low pressure with compressed H4198 and such a light bullet. Graph below: Green Line was done with Sir Scotty's 22"-barreled M70 Winchester rifle and a COL of 3.200" with the Hornady 250-gr Monoflex at 3.200" COL. Red Line was done with my 24" Ruger No. 1 and a COL of 3.340" with same bullet and larger charges of compressed H4198 required, to get same satisfactory pressure and velocity. Sir Scotty's loads and mine have been corrected to MV. The one load from Sir Michael is shown as a range of velocities (vertical ORANGE LINE) plotted from instrumental velocity and upward, as explained on the graph.
Sir Scotty has naught to fear for the integrity of the monometal copper Monoflex, however fast he wishes to drive it into deer. His only concern is to minimize meat damage by wise placement of the bullet. And I am sure that will be easy since it shoots accurately for him. Here is a sample indicating best accuracy with maximal H4198 and even better accuracy with the starting load of AA-5744 in my Ruger No. 1. Let this guide the quest for accuracy nodes in all the King's rifles:
The accuracy load with which your brass will last forever is detailed here. Since the BC of the bullet is so low, there is little gained by maximal loads with this bullet at practical hunting ranges.
.458 Cal-250g Shock Hammer This 250g Shock Hammer was designed specifically for the 45-70 Gov. This pure copper bullet will work well in the old trap door models as well as the lever action and modern rifles. With the big 1/4″ hollow point it will be a hard hitting performer with excellent velocity for hunting big game. Recommended minimum twist rate is 1-30″ Bullet length is .885″ Nose length is .4375″ Bullet weight is 250g Recommended use: Big Game Hunting g1-bc= .116 estimated
.458 Cal-300g Shock Hammer This Shock Hammer with it’s 1/4″ hollow point will be a heavy hitter in the 45-70 cartridge. Good weight with high vel will be tough to beat. This Shock Hammer should not be overlooked in the big .458’s for dangerous game. Hard hitting without excess recoil. Required minimum twist rate is 1-30″ or faster Preferred twist rate for dangerous game is 1-25″ or faster Bullet length is 1.05″ Nose length is .450″ Bullet weight is 300g Recommended use: Big Game Hunting / Dangerous Game Hunting g1-bc= .272 estimated
.458 Cal-674g Target Hammer We have been working with Kirby Allen of Allen Precision Shooting to develop an extreme long range bullet for his 458 Maximus. This is the 1st version that we settled on for his 1-12″ test rifle. He was able to run this 674g Target Hammer at 3220 fps from a 1-12″ twist 41″ Lilja barrel. This confirmed a bc of .540 g7 out to 2500y. At 3000′ elevation this will hold supersonic to almost 3200 yards! Simply amazing! This bullet has our patented PDR radius drive band design and is a bore rider style of bullet. This means that it will seat the boat tail junction in the case neck and be a single feed only bullet. Recommended minimum twist rate is 1-12″ Bullet length is 2.632″ Bullet weight is 674g Recommended use: Long Range Target Shooting g7-bc= .540 calculated from shot drops out to 2500y
Wonder how that PDR radius drive band affects obturation?
If applied to shorter bullets that shape would also have to be shortened proportionally I guess! The other surprise is how far back on the shank it is located.
Wonder how that PDR radius drive band affects obturation?
If applied to shorter bullets that shape would also have to be shortened proportionally I guess! The other surprise is how far back on the shank it is located.
Sir Woods, That bullet does have the look of a very short bearing length which is just ahead of the boat tail base. To obturate, it must be a little bigger than groove diameter, patented there, eh ? Then a wasp waist and bore-rider nose tapering to a pointy. If it can be used successfully in a .458 Maximus, then why not a .458 WM+ ?
According to the McGowen twist calculator, a 1:10.7" twist would stabilize that 674-gr Target Hammer at 1800 fps. The .458 WM+ with the common 1:10" twist ought to be able to handle that bullet. That has given me renewed interest in a Ruger No. 1 with 10" twist, make it stainless with a screw-on brake threaded same as for a suppressor. That would be the ultimate all-purpose rifle for the nimble fingered, except fast twist is not so good for cast bullets. Oh well, that is why everyone needs more than one .458 WinMag.
Buy a donkey for the flowers, Sir John. LET'S GO BRANDON and the horse/whores he rode in on. I've got to get a baseball cap with "LetsGoBrandon" on it, not "LGBTQIA."
Sir Scotty, Your 78-gr H4198 3.300" load is plenty good. Try a 65-gr charge of AA-5744 if you ever want for another fun load. Yes that 300-gr Shock Hammer looks to be a humdinger too, big-bear-capable inside of 200 yards.
Yep, I sure love that cap and bandana fashion statement. Review of another lightweight bullet from testing about 5 years ago, when we were Making America Great Again: The Shock Hammer 300-grainer has a higher BC than the TTSX-BT according to the makers' figures. TTSX-BT 300 gr, G1 BC = 0.236 Shock Hammer 300 gr, G1 BC = 0.272 Do PDR bands make the bullet that slick despite the 0.250"-diameter hollow point hole ? Data from the TTSX might work even better with the Shock hammer.
The higher BC of the 404g Shock Hammer will cut wind drift almost in half.
Here is the parts rifle used to shoot the 300-gr TTSX, Ms. Chimera WinCzechster, a re-barreled .30-06 Pre-'64 M70:
First it was converted to .300 WinMag by re-barreling a 1952 vintage .30-06:
Then a take-off CZ barrel from a .458 WinMag 550 Magnum was set back 1/8" and re-threaded to fit the M70:
The 300-gr TSX-FB has claimed G1 BC of 0.230 or 0.234 depending on the source. This load might be fully SAAMI compliant, with pressure under 60,000 psi and COL less than 3.340":
I'll sleep easier tonight Gunner knowing the old faithful girl is being carried afield on the Dark Continent with a solid in reserve.
CRAP!!!!! got word the vegetation is extra thick this year Fury01, going to be some tough receiver sighted rifle hunting, if i can see anything at all, dang, i wish i knew if little Wife could carry my scope sighted 458 WM+ for emergency dispatching of animals, she happily volunteered, i'd hate to wind up taking another scope sighted light rifle for light plains game after you gave me that box of solids.
Blowin' 'em outta the water Sir Ron, i can say the .451" 290gr version of that bullet is a stone cold buzzsaw killer at only 2100 fps from inline 50 cal and AR 450 Bushmaster, the blind could find the game, that's if they move at all after the hit, blood everywhere, devastating bullets made only worse with the 458 WM+'s extra velocity,
And Yessir, a big "buy a donkey" for lets go brandon, FU-K slow joe bidet, and the demotard donkey his diapered ass rode in on and the chit eating dog that followed!
Blowin' 'em outta the water Sir Ron, i can say the .451" 290gr version of that bullet is a stone cold buzzsaw killer at only 2100 fps from inline 50 cal and AR 450 Bushmaster, the blind could find the game, that's if they move at all after the hit, blood everywhere, devastating bullets made only worse with the 458 WM+'s extra velocity,
Good to hear that. The blue plastic tip makes for reliable expansion at low velocity even if it does not improve BC by much.
Keep in mind that critter penetration is usually double (or more) than the depth of MIB wetpack penetration.
Nice stuff with that 300 TTSX. That is a cool looking load.
I bet they’ll tear some stuff up as Gunner mentioned as well.
Yes they are pretty and effective, i.e., pretty effective bullets. The 404-gr Shock Hammer is a mo' prettier and I bet mo' effective bullet too, because it is mo' bullet but not too much mo', so it is a Goldilocks Bullet. Due to its copper color it could be called the Ginger Bullet.
Nice stuff with that 300 TTSX. That is a cool looking load.
I bet they’ll tear some stuff up as Gunner mentioned as well.
Yes they are pretty and effective, i.e., pretty effective bullets. The 404-gr Shock Hammer is a mo' prettier and I bet mo' effective bullet too, because it is mo' bullet but not too much mo', so it is a Goldilocks Bullet. Due to its copper color it could be called the Ginger Bullet.
For sure RC. Although I do like the looks of the expansion on that 300 TTSX….
This thread just keeps on delivering and would have to be the leading authority on the mighty .458 Winchester Magnum!
Wish me luck gentleman, as I will be out hunting the mighty Sambar again this weekend - and with me will once again be 'Fatso', my beloved Zastava M70 in .458WM. However, this time it'll be loaded with the 550gn Woodleigh at 2100fps... a formidable load in anyones language!
It's funny, every time I go out for Sambar I think to myself, "you should really take out the .338WM as experts will say it is nearly the perfect Sambar rifle!" Or "take out the .303 British for the cool and nostalgic factor..." but nearly every time it's Fatso that accompanies me. This is because Sambar hunting is tough and more often than not the shot that must be taken is in less than perfect conditions, and the .458 has come up trumps every time. Plus lets face it, it's just plain cool to hunt with an elephant gun. Fatso has now accounted for Sambar, Fallow and Red Deer and even with less than perfect bullet placement, the .458 just plain and simple puts things on their bum.
Yes sir Big B and Sir Ron, a great and cheaper alternative for light big game, the 404 Hammer should have no peer for reach 'with' heavy on game performance, almost makes me want to work up a load in my double rifle with it!
You and 'Fatso' go get em and have fun, 550 Woodies at 2100 is indeed a hell of a load, i tried to buy some 550gr Woodleighs here from Ohiofarmer awhile back, he pulled the add, dont really know what happened.
Gunner, It is your trip brother; your decision. No problem for me either way. When I hunt with my old Receiver sighted Springfield 35 Whelen in the dark or thick woods and have a standing shot, I often use my little 8x30's to pick a hole through the brush then simply set up on that spot and squeeeeze. Hasn't failed me yet!! Best regards, F01
Sir Russ using the 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN at 2100 fps on Sambar deer seems appropriate as heck to me. I have taken ground squirrel with the old Hornady 500-grain RNSN at 2150 fps and the squirrel did not complain a bit. The deer won't either.
Headsup on a handy, cheap and available, bullet sizer from Lee, thanks to Sir Jerry. It would be great for various lead bullet sizings in the .458 WM, from paper-patched slicks to hardcast-gas-checked-PC-painted. It can also be used to transform .509" to .505" brass Barnes Banded Solids, see here:
Gunner, It is your trip brother; your decision. No problem for me either way. When I hunt with my old Receiver sighted Springfield 35 Whelen in the dark or thick woods and have a standing shot, I often use my little 8x30's to pick a hole through the brush then simply set up on that spot and squeeeeze. Hasn't failed me yet!! Best regards, F01
Thanks Fury01, it'll be a tough decision, just wish i knew what the layout looked like before i left, and yessir, i unscrew the aperture at dawn and as dusk nears hunting the old receiver peep rifles, even '94 and '86 lever guns, if time allowed after spotting an animal the bino/range finder id would be very nice, African animals can sure be twitchy at times ; ]
Sir Jerry, Note that the 450-gr CEB Safari Solid is a better option than the 400-grainer designed for lever actions. The CEB brass 400-grainer wastes case capacity in both .45-70 and .458 WM, and does not take advantage of the magazine length allowed by SAAMI COL.
.458 WM+ loads are impossible with the "funny-banded" CEB 400-gr brass FN. The funny-banded 450-grainer with a longer nose will barely allow a COL of + 3.340". The 450-gr CEB at +2350 fps with COL of 3.380" is very functional in the average .458 WM rifle. The 450-gr CEB brass FN is about as good as it gets for a SAAMI .458 WM. MIB terminals here:
The 400-grainer was tested at only .45-70 Gov't. equivalent velocities:
Note that the bullet stayed straight. Some theoreticians say that the shortness of nose projection of the bullet may limit penetration when compared to longer nose projection ... I will not accept that until it has been tried with low drag PDR bands of Hammer Bullets, on an FN solid. I think even the CEB 400-grainer would score better at higher velocity.
OK....Its been years since I've owned a 458 WM....went and looked at what powders I have and really don't have the best to use what I've read hear....AA 1680 and IMR 4198 but have pounds to burn....only bullets sitting on the shelve I'am going to shoot are Hornady 250 gr. Flex-Tip for playing around with paper and Cutting Edge Bullets 258 gr. for hunting..... Was thinking that in Ohio you can use any 35-50 caliber straight wall cartridge for deer hunting.....458 WM fits the bill....
75 grains of CFE223 behind the Hornady 480 Gr DGS all on top of Federal 215 primers at 458 win magazine length. What velocity would be expected?
Sir John, I am going to guess that would duplicate classic 450 NE ballistics in the 2150 to 2200 fps MV range with a 24" barrel. Pressure would be quite low, plumb tropical. CFE223 is pretty slow for the .458 WM but energetic and cleans the barrel nicely, and your brass would last forever. QuickLOAD is quite useless in dealing with a .458 Winchester Magnum throat. Proof is in the tasting of the pudding. Have you chronographed that load yet ?
coyotewacker, King .458 Winchester Magnum requests your service as a Knight of the Square Table. What is your Sir Name ?
Originally Posted by coyotewacker
OK....Its been years since I've owned a 458 WM....went and looked at what powders I have and really don't have the best to use what I've read hear....AA 1680 and IMR 4198 but have pounds to burn....only bullets sitting on the shelve I'am going to shoot are Hornady 250 gr. Flex-Tip for playing around with paper and Cutting Edge Bullets 258 gr. for hunting..... Was thinking that in Ohio you can use any 35-50 caliber straight wall cartridge for deer hunting.....458 WM fits the bill....
What are some loads for both powders ?
IMR-4198 substitution for H4198 would not be too far off and that was covered not too far back with the 250-gr Hornady Monoflex. I think Sir Michael of MIB likes AA-1680 for the 258-gr CEB. I'll dig something up on that.
75 grains of CFE223 behind the Hornady 480 Gr DGS all on top of Federal 215 primers at 458 win magazine length. What velocity would be expected?
Sir John, I am going to guess that would duplicate classic 450 NE ballistics in the 2150 to 2200 fps MV range with a 24" barrel. Pressure would be quite low, plumb tropical. CFE223 is pretty slow for the .458 WM but energetic and cleans the barrel nicely, and your brass would last forever. QuickLOAD is quite useless in dealing with a .458 Winchester Magnum throat. Proof is in the tasting of the pudding. Have you chronographed that load yet ?
You can seat on the factory cannelure for a COL of about 3.200", and 75 grains of AA-2230 will probably get you over 2200 fps.
The 480-gr DGX is an accurate bullet, and AA-2460 is another good powder to use with it. Kissing cousin to AA-2230:
That is a 3-shot group at 50 yards. The DGX can't be all bad. Taken to extreme in a Ruger No. 1 with 24" barrel, 480-gr DGX-Bonded loaded to 3.560" COL with 83.0 grains of AA-2460 5 shots at 80 degrees F, LabRadar: 2408, 2408, 2406, 2404, 2402 fps MV mean = 2405.6 fps ES = 6fps st.dev. = 2.6 fps for the 5 shots
Agreed Sir Ron, funny driving band locations for max efficiency in the 458 WM+, lever gun yes, and even some slow [20] twist double rifles, the 400 safari solid would be perfect as iirc most of the .458 cal 480gr Woodleighs which are a Kynoch bullet copy externally with BOL's of 1.240-1.310"...............the 400's at 2250 ish should punch a respectably deep hole provided regulation is there.
Maybe the men at Hammer will see to it that a proper 400gr solid comes to light.
I put out a request for IMR-4198 and AA-1680 loads with 250gr Monoflex and 258gr CEB in the .458 WM & .458 B&M at the B&M Forum. Will see if I get a response.
Meanwhile, I will say that I tried AA-1680 with the 300gr Sierra ProHunter, a very soft bullet. Results for that bullet with 69.0 grains to 76.0 grains were kind of wild. 76.0 grains got it over 2800 fps MV at which point the bullet vaporized in my muzzle brake and destroyed a chronograph. One bullet before that actually made it to a 25-yard paper target as lead dust and read 2798 fps over the chrono before that last bullet. Generally wild extreme spreads. Best 3-shot load was 73.0 grains of AA-1680 giving 5-yard chrono readings like this: 2715, 2715, 2726 for ES 11 fps, st.dev. 6 fps. It might be a better powder for the lighter 250-258-gr bullets. I never worked with it again, but it might deserve a trial with 250-ish grainers. I would start with 66 grains and work up to 73 grains. Also, a standard large rifle primer might be tried instead of the F-215 magnum primer I used.
See mid page 104 of this thread for my preferred 250-gr Monoflex loads with H4198 and AA-5744. Those would probably work well with 258-gr CEB.
I see you get it. A proper 400-gr FN of copper or brass at 2500 fps will do all a solid will ever need to do.
Meanwhile, that CEB .458-caliber 575-grain Lazer at 2000 fps from a .458 WM with 1:10" twist would extend the hunting range. I want a Ruger No. 1 with 10" twist along with choice of muzzle brake and suppressor. Gotta think about what is left of my ears in old age.
RC, I’d bet the bonded 300 grain Speer would be the trick in the 458. They are pretty tough bullets for what they are. Way back when they took 2300 in a Marlin pretty easily. They’d likely be dynamite in a 458 a few 100 FPS faster
You bet Sir Ron, 400gr FN solids at 2500 fps is a whole different ballgame, should be outta sight penetration especially with the added stability from being only 1.250 inch long, damn, just dawned on me, 250 to 600 grains, dont think there is another caliber with such a wide bullet weight spread as .458, garden rabbits to elephant, you could always make that 10 twist #1 a 15lb back porch picnic table vermin exterminator, that would dampen recoil and wouldn't need a brake, 30 inch bull barrel should do it, maybe pac-nor has something.
Big B, good point, back in the day i couldnt tear up either 300gr Speer unicor in a long barreled 44 Ruger or a 454 Casull, i ran those slugs into all kinds of crap, much tougher bullet than the 300gr FA factory loaded bullet, it;s nice to run into reasonably priced bullets that are bar brawler tough.
Yeah, I did some testing in water jugs and the Speer was right behind the 300 Partition. I still have a couple 100 of them 300 .458 Partitions but haven’t tried them yet in the 458. I’d bet those would shock folks how well they penetrate. They’re a demon in the 45-70. I used the Speer to work up loads and match them to Partition to save what I did have.
I’d bet you could put a round ball in the 458 and it might even be a little lighter and a decent little plinker too.
Great suggestion on the Speer .458/300-gr, Sir Scotty. Probably more accurate and way tougher than the Sierra HP. The H4198 data would be good with the Speer. My bad with the Sierra 300-gr Pro-Hunter hollow point exploding bullet:
So next I tried AA-1680 and only got to 76.0 grains where the bullets started vaporizing one on the way to the 25-yard target at 2798 fps instrumental, the second one killed the instrument at 5 yards. I did not shoot the third one I had loaded with that charge. 76 grains of AA-1680 is about 95% LR/net fill, without use of drop tube, for 0.34" seating depth.
I can't say I am surprised by that Sierra myself RC. The 300 grain Hornady isn't all that much tougher either. The bonded 300 grain Speer might be fun to torment.
I haven't had the chance to run the 250 Hornady MonoFlex into anything yet. Any of you all have any experience or see what it expands like?
You bet Sir Ron, 400gr FN solids at 2500 fps is a whole different ballgame, should be outta sight penetration especially with the added stability from being only 1.250 inch long, damn, just dawned on me, 250 to 600 grains, dont think there is another caliber with such a wide bullet weight spread as .458, garden rabbits to elephant, you could always make that 10 twist #1 a 15lb back porch picnic table vermin exterminator, that would dampen recoil and wouldn't need a brake, 30 inch bull barrel should do it, maybe pac-nor has something.
Big B, good point, back in the day i couldnt tear up either 300gr Speer unicor in a long barreled 44 Ruger or a 454 Casull, i ran those slugs into all kinds of crap, much tougher bullet than the 300gr FA factory loaded bullet, it;s nice to run into reasonably priced bullets that are bar brawler tough.
Sir Jerry, Hell yes on the vermin exterminator, but maybe just 28" barrel and 10 pounds to make Creedmoor rules, with this bullet from CEB:
SealTite band hanging out into throat, 10" twist good for 1300 fps to 2000+ fps ... That dog would hunt too, as well as sit on a picnic table.
That's a damn good load at 3.340" JWP, all of this 458 WM+ goodness over the past year or so has caused me to pull a long left in the dark and dusty old .458 cal double rifle out of the big safe, been shooting it too lately, it regulates perfectly at 65 yards with the 480gr DGX at 2142 fps, no 458 WM+ of course, but i'd still shoot any Buffalo with it.
Get on it bluefish, 250 to 600 grains, it's all waiting to please!
From a B&M Forum member a load with 250-gr Hornady Monoflex using AA-1680 in a .458 WinMag, Ruger M77:
" ... figured out a load for my 458 WM using AA1680 ... At 76 gr. only 8 fps difference 2922 fps in 5 shots all into under 1 1/4″ at 50 yards with a peep sight. It been a long time since I used a peep sight, sure glad I brought the peep sight for the Ruger 77. Now that its tuned for the Hornady next time I’ll work on the CEB 258 gr. bullet…"
Well, it seems AA-1680 might be about as perfect as AA-5744 for use in the .458 WinMag with 250-ish grain bullets at around 3000 fps MV from a 24" barrel.
Here is the donor rifle for for a 1:10" twist .458 WinMag capable of handling the 575-gr CEB Lazer hunting bullet.
Maybe CFE-223 would be a good powder for that one. Sir Jerry has a doozy .400 Whelen load with that powder pushing 400-grainers to well over 2200 fps in a 23" barrel, at normal temperatures stateside and he had no trouble at ambient temp of 41*C, baking in Africa. That is 105.8 degrees F. That is brain-damage fever. Or compressed H4895 or non-compressed AA-2460 would get the 575-grainers past 2000 fps.
Barrel: My previous 1:10" twist, .458"-grooved (slugged by me), 8-grooved, No. 4 Sporter stainless "Super Match" barrel from Pac-Nor was cut to 19.75" on a .458 B&M, which has been re-throated with a .458 WinMag reamer. It is now a ".458 B&M+W" which is what I am calling it this week instead of a ".458 BMW." That will do lesser velocity trial loads with the 575-gr Lazer from CEB, when I load it like a shell-holder action (M70 short action for WSM).
Looks like I need another Pac-Nor like Sir Jerry suggested. This time a No. 6 Sporter "Super Match" to finish up at 28" length. Fitted with Creedmoor iron sights and a Picatinny rail it might be about 10 pounds. Lengthening the barrel from 24" to 28" only adds 0.33 pound according to the Pac-Nor barrel weight calculator. Don't gain much after 28" of barrel, start losing velocity about 30" barrel length with these new-fangled smokeless powders.
The .458 WinMag Creedmoor rifle is third in line at the Hilltop Gun Shop & Spa for Wayward Rifles. 1. 500 Jeffery Match CZ 550 Magnum for duplicating .50-140-3.5" BPCR loads with 1:20" twist McGowen stainless. 2. 400 Whelen Ruger M77 Hawkeye awaiting barrel hardware add-ons. 3. .458 WM Creedmoor Ruger No. 1.
Sir. Ron I got 2198 FPS using 75 grains of AA2230 with the 480 grain DGS. How much higher do you think my velocity will be with 76 grains at magazine length?
Sir. Ron I got 2198 FPS using 75 grains of AA2230 with the 480 grain DGS. How much higher do you think my velocity will be with 76 grains at magazine length?
Sir John, My experience is to expect about 20 fps more with another grain of AA-2230 added to your load of 75.0 grains with the 480-gr DGX. You got 2198 fps instrumental. If that was at 5 yards for chrono add 14 fps to correct to MV = 2212 fps. If 2198 for MV by Lab Radar, no correction needed.
My load of 78.3 grains giving 2297 fps MV was in a 25" Shilen barrel instead of your 24" Whitworth barrel. I got about 15 fps extra for my extra inch of barrel. 2297 -15 = 2282 fps for 78.3 grains AA-2230 expected in my rifle with barrel shortened 1 inch to 24". 3.3 gr X 20 fps/gr = 66 fps 2282 - 66 fps = 2216 fps for my rifle with 24" barrel and 75 grains AA-2230. My MV 2216 fps for 24" barrel calculated. Your MV 2212 fps for 24" barrel calculated. Pretty darn close !
I predict you will get about 2232 fps MV with 76.0 grains of AA-2230. Minus 14 fps for instrumental = 2218 fps.
Sir. Ron I got 2198 FPS using 75 grains of AA2230 with the 480 grain DGS. How much higher do you think my velocity will be with 76 grains at magazine length?
Sir John, My experience is to expect about 20 fps more with another grain of AA-2230 added to your load of 75.0 grains with the 480-gr DGX. You got 2198 fps instrumental. If that was at 5 yards for chrono add 14 fps to correct to MV = 2212 fps. If 2198 for MV by Lab Radar, no correction needed.
My load of 78.3 grains giving 2297 fps MV was in a 25" Shilen barrel instead of your 24" Whitworth barrel. I got about 15 fps extra for my extra inch of barrel. 2297 -15 = 2282 fps for 78.3 grains AA-2230 expected in my rifle with barrel shortened 1 inch to 24". 3.3 gr X 20 fps/gr = 66 fps 2282 - 66 fps = 2216 fps for my rifle with 24" barrel and 75 grains AA-2230. My MV 2216 fps for 24" barrel calculated. Your MV 2212 fps for 24" barrel calculated. Pretty darn close !
I predict you will get about 2232 fps MV with 76.0 grains of AA-2230. Minus 14 fps for instrumental = 2218 fps.
On June 11/19, temp 70*F, Rem brass, WLRM primer, 82 grains H4895 (max), 3.585" COL, Ruger No.1H 24" = 2353 fps/5900 ft-lbs from a 480 DGX, corrected to MV with Chrony at 15'.
Sir Bob, That is a great .458 WM+ load. Buy a donkey for that contribution. Seating depth is about a quarter inch, with a DGX-Bonded 480-grainer. Might be close to a tight fit in the .458 Lott throat. If one used the factory cannelure for a .458 Lott the COL would be about 3.500". Better advise any Lottites to use caution with your excellent .458 WM+ load, and be happy with their lesser loads for the .458 Lott. .458 WinMag beats all, in the all-around contest.
That .458-575 gr. CEB Lazer has a form factor about like the .510-750 gr. Hornady A-Max. The Hornady has a sectional density of 0.412 and G1 BC of 1.050 so the CEB with sectional density of 0.392 ought to have a BC of about 0.999, close to 1.000. That is if the SealTite Band (STB) sticking out there does not cause too much drag. TBD/"To Be Determined" as they say at CEB ...
Well, it seems AA-1680 might be about as perfect as AA-5744 for use in the .458 WinMag with 250-ish grain bullets at around 3000 fps MV from a 24" barrel.
Here is the donor rifle for for a 1:10" twist .458 WinMag capable of handling the 575-gr CEB Lazer hunting bullet.
Maybe CFE-223 would be a good powder for that one. Sir Jerry has a doozy .400 Whelen load with that powder pushing 400-grainers to well over 2200 fps in a 23" barrel, at normal temperatures stateside and he had no trouble at ambient temp of 41*C, baking in Africa. That is 105.8 degrees F. That is brain-damage fever. Or compressed H4895 or non-compressed AA-2460 would get the 575-grainers past 2000 fps.
Barrel: My previous 1:10" twist, .458"-grooved (slugged by me), 8-grooved, No. 4 Sporter stainless "Super Match" barrel from Pac-Nor was cut to 19.75" on a .458 B&M, which has been re-throated with a .458 WinMag reamer. It is now a ".458 B&M+W" which is what I am calling it this week instead of a ".458 BMW." That will do lesser velocity trial loads with the 575-gr Lazer from CEB, when I load it like a shell-holder action (M70 short action for WSM).
Looks like I need another Pac-Nor like Sir Jerry suggested. This time a No. 6 Sporter "Super Match" to finish up at 28" length. Fitted with Creedmoor iron sights and a Picatinny rail it might be about 10 pounds. Lengthening the barrel from 24" to 28" only adds 0.33 pound according to the Pac-Nor barrel weight calculator. Don't gain much after 28" of barrel, start losing velocity about 30" barrel length with these new-fangled smokeless powders.
The .458 WinMag Creedmoor rifle is third in line at the Hilltop Gun Shop & Spa for Wayward Rifles. 1. 500 Jeffery Match CZ 550 Magnum for duplicating .50-140-3.5" BPCR loads with 1:20" twist McGowen stainless. 2. 400 Whelen Ruger M77 Hawkeye awaiting barrel hardware add-ons. 3. .458 WM Creedmoor Ruger No. 1.
Yessir, CFE-223 in the little 400 Whelen was fail safe at 100+ degrees accurately placing the 400gr Woodie softs/solids and well within pressure limits at 2255 fps, PH proclaimed it to be the perfect low bush-veld all game rifle, because of vegetation, 200 yards is the absolute max range, Pac-Nor will have a hell of a barrel for your new Ruger #1 "Antii-Material Rifle" ..............it'll be fun to see what you realize with that beast.
Been lurking on this thread for while, has any one used the 425 gr. hard cast on game? I don't have a 458 Win Mag. But do have a 450 Howell, I have been using 458, 350 gr. Hornday S.P. and getting along fine but I am about out of them, I have had these hard cast for a long time as back up. loaded these to try today. will shoot and chrno them in the morning. Rio7
My Gunsmith Father in Law used to drill a small hole in the nose of the Bullet, before I met him, and make his own Hollow points!
He was on a fixed income, from early disability Retirement, and Former WWII Veteran, and made ends Meet!
He told me that they found out the hard way using solid lead on game wasn't the best choice, although the shock of the bullet would do some damage, his hollow points causing expansion of the bullet created a larger shock displacement, etc................ as we've learned today.
Yes sir I have used that mold's bullets on Game. The alloy I had weighed 433 but is of no matter. The work is done by that big flat point and it works fine on Game. Put one through, and I mean through because 99.99% of the time that is what happens, the vitals and you will have harvested what you shot at. Good hunting! F01
Rio7 Thanks for sharing the photos. That precisely is what one should do with a 458 bore. Go out and hunt whatever your hunting with it. Our First Love here is the incomparable 458WM but your Howell is getting the job done as well it seems! Lovely rifle.
Fury01, About this time every year I start reloading for the next hunting season, trying to do better than last seasons loads, the 450 Howell is a 458 Win Mag.+ P , in the field it's hard to tell them apart, kinda like the 300 win mag and the 300 Wby mag.. mine is fun as hell to hunt with. Rio7
Flat nose cast .458 bullets work from 1300 fps at the muzzle to around 2000 FPS in my opinion. You can run them faster but there is no real benefit on hunting loads. Alloys from 10-12 BHN up to 19 or so work great as long as the hard ones are not brittle. You have to have enough arsenic and Antimony in there to toughen them up. I prefer the softer ones myself. Most of my loads are between 1650 and 1900 fps, weights from 433 to 490. All of them kill whitetail about the same. No problem hitting where you want to at 250 yards as long as the shooter does his part. I shoot almost all my game sitting over sticks. Shot my buck last year offhand but he was the first in a while that way. Powders that work well for me are AA 2015, the old IMR 4759 which I still have a lot of!! and going to load some up with AA 2460 this year. Proven by Sir Ron as a good cast powder in the 458WM. Search this thread and you will find! All of those should be good in your Howell as well.
The 500 grain RN both soft and solid have done good work over the years in the mighty 458WM on African large game, the Big Bears up North and all sorts of game down under, all recorded in the pages of this thread by others. Also we know the flat Point is better in all phases of terminal ballistics and we are grateful for the bullets that have been developed along those thought lines. If you look at the Copper bullets with hollow points in their internal workings, you see rapid action to get weight forward and flat on front. Of course about every other type of bullet action is designed into someone's bullets but the key to through and through is to get weight forward and overcome tissue resistance. The Hammers do this by shedding petals that become secondary projectiles while the weight forward and flat pointed solid now moves on. Sir Ron and others have much to offer us in testing and research in this thread. Best Public Sourced work on these topics ever.
My Gunsmith Father in Law used to drill a small hole in the nose of the Bullet, before I met him, and make his own Hollow points!
He was on a fixed income, from early disability Retirement, and Former WWII Veteran, and made ends Meet!
He told me that they found out the hard way using solid lead on game wasn't the best choice, although the shock of the bullet would do some damage, his hollow points causing expansion of the bullet created a larger shock displacement, etc................ as we've learned today.
Sir Tony, No doubt that would be good for all sorts of handgun and rifle cast loads at relatively low velocity. I have s hollow-pointer mould from N.O.E. that has 3 different depths of HP as well as a smallish meplat FN plug for a full 600-grainer. I might try the "Hammer Hardness Tester" on the hollow-point versions of the 600-grainer NOE bullet. 4-pound hammer test of hardness, harder alloy blue, softer alloy red, 500-grainer and 600-grainer NOE bullets:
The handgun bullet on bottom is a .358"-158-gr bullet from a Lee mould, of about same hardness as the red-painted bullets.
RIO7, Sir, we do not offer O-7 rank at The Square Table but you have earned a seat there if you like. What would be your Sir Name ? The .450 Howell is a marvelous cartridge. Dr. Howell was a pillar of the community here, gone now to The Happy Hunting Ground. He too is to be inducted and canonized as Sir Saint Ken.
Would you agree that the .450 Howell has about 100 grains gross water capacity ? Would you possibly know the throat specs on the .450 Howell as designed by Sir Saint Ken ? Until further notice I submit the following:
And I have copied for handy reference your well composed photos containing cartridges and rifles:
Are those two same or different rifles in .450 Howell ?
Back to basic .458 WM loads with 350-gr Speer "tough enough" bullet as previously suggested, power enough for anything in NA:
And the good-for-lower-velocity loads with the 400-gr Speer, more suitable for .45-70 Gov't.:
400-gr Woodleigh at +2600 fps MV (3.425" COL) 400-ish-gr/.461" Hardcast-GC at 2150 fps MV 375-gr/.461" Linotype Hollow Base at 1400 fps MV The cast bullets are loaded to 3.340" COL, easily seated deeper for same velocities with those:
All have good accuracy in a SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag rifle with 1:14" twist.
David Walter, Until RIO7 gets back, yes, .404 Jeffery basis for .450 Howell, 2.500" case length, caliber length neck, and nice body taper. Its top ballistic performance will depend on how it is throated. Regardless, it should be a slick feeder that will hunt well, anything huntable.
Compare to the .458/.416 Ruger aka the .458 WinRuger:
Here is the GSC 400-gr HV at COL for magazine-length challenged rifle:
Targets are only 25 yards zeroing, just to compare what previous, good .458 WinMag loads would do for velocity in a larger case with same throat. The .458 WinMag was loaded to COL of 3.395" in a 23" McGowen barrel and did a bit over 2500 fps with 80.0 grains of AA-2230, with same 400-gr GSC HV:
Graphic summary of the above, +/- is for standard deviation, not extreme spread:
Gotta add a little extra powder in the 10-grains bigger case to equal the .458 WM at less than 3.4" COL, both throated the same for overall length from breech to start of rifling in the leade.
But the M98 magazine only holds 2 down with the wide-shouldered .458 WinRuger. Here is what I am going to do about that, like on this .510/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved that has Wiebe .500 Jeffery bottom metal:
Sunny Hill for the Whitworth .458 WM that had rings in its chamber from the factory and had to be re-chambered, using a properly piloted .375 Ruger reamer body and a .458 Lott reamer to extend the neck. The remnant .458 WinMag throat was good. Drop magazine will hang out below the pretty wood. Or maybe a Bell & Carlson stock would be better for such a batch of lemonade made from a lemon. Save the pretty wood for the flush floor plate.
Sir Ron, Please allow me to do some brain matter picking here, as I have learned a lot on this thread all ready, and continue to learn some more. As illustrated above, the 2 rounds shown, the .458 Win. Ruger, and the .458 Win. Mag. Both loaded with North Fork 450-gr. Semi Spitzer S. P. Bullets. My Question is that with the extra cannelure grooves exposed out of the case. How does this effect the possible drag on the flight of the bullet, pertaining to wind resistance, and velocity?
Please don't make me buy another Donkey, as the Stables getting crowded! LOL!!!
My 450 Howell, was given to me by Ken Howell, he had it about 80% built when he had his first stroke, he had planned to take it to Africa, he gave it to me, with a bunch of brass and bullets, and said finish this rifle and go kill something with it and send me a picture. With the help of Bob AKA ( kaywoodie) we finished the rifle, Miles Patton and Ed Bryant, helped me make 404 Jeffery brass into 450 Howell, and build some loads, after completing the rifle, i took it back to Ken, by then he was in a wheel chair after another stroke, and could no longer talk, he really enjoyed seeing the rifle and handling, we had a long visit passing notes back and forth, he passed away about 18 months later.
Sir Tony, Hanging out in the throat is same as hanging out inside the case for the North Fork drive bands. Same aerodynamics for external ballistics. They might not be as aerodynamic as the Hammer Bullets PDR bands, but nothing else is either. North Forks work quite well, however, even if BC is not as high as with the 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer.
Excerpts for book review purposes, book by Randolph S. Wright, cover and pp. 38 and 39:
Book review: Excellent book. It contains excellent information applicable to measuring the max COL of a cartridge possible in a rifle chamber. My comments were added to that last image above, hoping to goad RIO7 into measurement of the .450 Howell throat length, if he does not have a reamer drawing ...
Elkhunter AKA Ken, had a reamer and dies, made off of the brass and loaded rounds I gave him, he built a 450 Howell out of a Whitworth .375 Mag. I think, I will measure mine as i don't remember. Rio7
Visited The Gunsmith today. He might be getting ready to chamber a .500 Jeffery barrel to put on my CZ550 Magnum action. 1:20" twist. It should be a hoot for duplicating .50-140-3.5" BPCR ballistics with cast bullets and Blackhorn 209, or paper-patched and duplexed BP, or standard jacketed .500 Jeffery with the usual smokeless powders.
We also discussed a 1:10" twist .458 WM. He is not hot to do another Ruger No. 1. I blame myself for trying to get him to do a 20-gauge 3.5" on a Ruger No. 1 ... just a little bigger than a .577 NE rim ... ... extractor/ejector just would not work ... He now gets really big-bored when he sees me with a Ruger No. 1, even though he did several for me in smaller calibers, quite successfully.
He is more interested in barreling an FN Mauser or M70 Classic Stainless. I figure maybe to have a switch barrel with 2 barrels of 1:10" twist, a long and heavy 28" and lighter 20" barrel. Use the long one for the 1000-yard shooting with 575-gr CEB, single-loaded. Use the short one for subsonic suppressed, like the .45 ACP of rifledom. Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, at Gunsmith Pace.
26" heavy contour barrel (#6 sporter) on M70 classic.
Hedging the lengths so as to be useful for special purpose and general purpose loads.
And nowadays the 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi SAAMI .458 WinMag makes a bloody big hole through anything needing a bloody big hole, in the most practical manner.
26" heavy contour barrel (#6 sporter) on M70 classic.
Hedging the lengths so as to be useful for special purpose and general purpose loads.
And nowadays the 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi SAAMI .458 WinMag makes a bloody big hole through anything needing a bloody big hole, in the most practical manner.
I have no idea what the actual contours of the M70 Super Express at 22" and the Mark X / Whitworth at the near 24" equate to, but I like them both for a general purpose rifle. The Mark X / Whitworth may eventually receive a trim to 22 or 21".
I think the barrel contours for the Winchester 375 H&H Safari Express and stainless classics also are more appropriate to 458's. Though not too shabby in .416.
Edit = I fully agree on the 1-10". No idea how that would do with hard-cast powder coated bullets ??
if i could draw a tag for antelope or deer my top rifle too hunt with would be my Winchester classic safari 458 win mag with a350gr bullet and my reloads. I wish I would of bought a 458 win mag long a go when i was younger!
if i could draw a tag for antelope or deer my top rifle too hunt with would be my Winchester classic safari 458 win mag with a350gr bullet and my reloads. I wish I would of bought a 458 win mag long a go when i was younger!
No doubt about it, they are a lot easier to shoot when you are younger and your brain not as well developed. The more experience and years you get, the more you tend to challenge your own thinking.
Just joking of course........458 Caliber is a must for every gun safe.
Back to basic .458 WM loads with 350-gr Speer "tough enough" bullet as previously suggested, power enough for anything in NA:
I did a review of this bullet when first released maybe 30 odd years ago. What was memorable for me, was the accuracy and I clearly recall getting groups a shade over half inch at 100 yards even from a Marlin .45/70, though I have to check my notes to see whether I loaded it in the heavier .458's.
I shot a bear with that bullet from my first .458 Win Mag, at an MV of 2345 fps and a reduced load of AA2015. And that was from a bolt action 22" M77 Ruger. It's also a very good bullet from a single-shot Ruger #1 in .45-70 at around that same speed.
Hornady 480 gr DGS, 76 gr. AA2230 2232FPS out of Interarms MarkX
Originally Posted by jwp475
Riflecrank, thankfully you are back with a vengeance
Sir John, Buy a donkey for the flowers, and buy a donkey for your latest 480-gr DGS load too. I broke my foot on 4-26-2022 and have been letting it heal in steel-toed work boots. Had to drive my little pick-em-up truck to Florida and drive a U-Haul back with Wife's deceased Mom's treasures, loaded the truck too, with a broke foot. Limped 8 miles behind my lawnmower since then too, and gotta do it again in a few days. I am on the mend. When the foot is good again, I will bulldog the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo out to the creek for some tests of solid bullets, including the Lehigh 380-gr copper FN, CEB 450-gr brass FN, and lo and behold:
I have no idea what the actual contours of the M70 Super Express at 22" and the Mark X / Whitworth at the near 24" equate to, but I like them both for a general purpose rifle. The Mark X / Whitworth may eventually receive a trim to 22 or 21".
I think the barrel contours for the Winchester 375 H&H Safari Express and stainless classics also are more appropriate to 458's. Though not too shabby in .416.
Edit = I fully agree on the 1-10". No idea how that would do with hard-cast powder coated bullets ??
Sir Larry, I will be able to try some heavy cast bullets at low velocity in a 1:10" twist .458 soon. Fingers crossed. But the 1:10" will be forgiven if no good with cast, due to its special purpose utility. Certainly 1:14" is the best all-around twist for a .458 WM.
The M70 Super Express .458 WM is pretty close to a No. 5 Sporter contour, but so are the .375 and .416 M70 factory barrels. Good on the .458, but a bit heavier with the smaller bores, aye. The Whitworth is closer to a No. 4 Sporter at the muzzle on the .458 but is a bit beefier closer to the breech, nice contour for balance. Again, same profile on the smaller bores makes them heavier. CZ 550 Magnum is close to a No. 4 Sporter for .458, .416, and .375. Winchester, Whitworth, CZ all have their departures somewhere between breech and muzzle, differing in their tapering and swelling from the the more standard barrel maker contours.
if i could draw a tag for antelope or deer my top rifle too hunt with would be my Winchester classic safari 458 win mag with a350gr bullet and my reloads. I wish I would of bought a 458 win mag long a go when i was younger!
mooshoo, Pick your Sir Name. You deserve a seat at The Square Table.
Highly anticipated, the 400- to 405-gr Hammer FN solid will be so much better and an easy handloading task to match velocity to the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Can be used at 1800 fps to 2500 fps for Lever Action .45-70 to Bolt Action .458 WinMag. Seated deep in the SAAMI .45-70 Gov't., PDR bands "all in." Seated shallowly in the SAAMI .458 WinMag, PDR bands "all out." Well, more out than in. 2 or 3 PDR bands near base of bullet will be in. This allows greater room for a 101% net fill with AA-2230. That's impossible with the peculiar band structure of the CEB FN bullets. They recommend minimum of two bands inside the case, and when those two bands are near a half inch apart, it is not ideal, except for COL-challenged cartridges.
Highly anticipated, the 400- to 405-gr Hammer FN solid will be so much better and an easy handloading task to match velocity to the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Can be used at 1800 fps to 2500 fps for Lever Action .45-70 to Bolt Action .458 WinMag. Seated deep in the SAAMI .45-70 Gov't., PDR bands "all in." Seated shallowly in the SAAMI .458 WinMag, PDR bands "all out." Well, more out than in. 2 or 3 PDR bands near base of bullet will be in. This allows greater room for a 101% net fill with AA-2230. That's impossible with the peculiar band structure of the CEB FN bullets. They recommend minimum of two bands inside the case, and when those two bands are near a half inch apart, it is not ideal, except for COL-challenged cartridges.
How much AA2230 can you get behind the 404 gr Shock Hammer at magazine length for a Interarms MarkX
Sir John, With the 404-gr Shock Hammer, loosely poured and "shaken not stirred" AA-2230 for a full case at 3.340" COL is about 70 grains with W-W, Hornady, and R-P brass. If you use Norma .458 WinMag brass that figure is about 4 grains more. For 3.340" COL those respective figures are 70 and 74 grains. For 3.380" COL: 72 grains and 76 grains. For 3.480" COL: 76 grains and 80 grains. For 3.580" COL: 80 grains and 84 grains.
Increase your net case capacity by about 4 grains by loading 0.100" longer or by switching from W-W/Hornady/R-P brass to Norma brass.
Use a drop tube made from an aluminum arrow shaft with a funnel on each end and you can add a grain or two more without compression. Add a grain or two more on top of that for mild compression, enough to prevent bullet setback on battering. Good crimp on top of that prevents coitus interruptus of bullet and case.
Veritable orgy of bullets and brass pictured above.
Had to go to Nashville, TN for airport run yesterday. On the way home I stopped by the nearby Mt. Juliet shop, The Reloader's Bench, always fun in the past, but pickings are getting pretty slim nowadays. However I was delighted to liberate the last lonely bags of .458 WM and .45-2.6" brass. I was sort of hoping to find a remnant of 500 Jeffery brass, no luck there, but I sure got lucky with the .458 WM: Same headstamp as on the original 1956-1957 factory ammo ! 62 pieces for 60 dollars in a dusty, lonely, plastic bag. With the brass and ammo Sir Tony donated, I now have 77 pieces with same headstamp. Cheers ! Still looking for his bottle. I found a set of CH4D dies for the .458 WM also, for $50, new in dusty box. And a great book:
The 2006 book deals with the first 100 years of Winchester factory ammo boxes. Oliver F. Winchester became president of Volcanic Repeating Arms Company in December 1856, which was absorbed into the New Haven Arms Company on May 1, 1857, and Benjamin Tyler Henry was appointed as plant superintendent. The 44 Rim Fire and the Henry rifle kept the company alive until the bonanza of the Civil War. Relations deteriorated between O. F. Winchester and B. T. Henry, and Henry left New Haven Arms in May 1864, though he was paid through his 5-year superintendent contract period ending June 11, 1865. But Henry remained a large stockholder and in cahoots with the secretary of the company, C. W. Nott, while O.F. Winchester was away on business in Switzerland in summer 1865, a name change of the company was done. By power of attorney in Winchester's absence, New Haven Arms Co. became Henry Repeating Rifle Co. Less than a year later, through financial muscle flexing, Winchester changed the company name to WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS COMPANY, and Henry was out of the loop for good by 1866. So, Winchester was thus involved with cartridge boxes since 1856, even if those earliest boxes were made of tin and contained 200 of the ludicrous Volcanic hollow bullets with propellant inside the bullet.
Book review: Excellent book. Chapter 7 deals only with the Model 1885 "High Wall" and more than 70 chamberings. Does not include some other chamberings on this rifle action by the British, but the 50 Eley is listed, including a chamber drawing. Excerpt for book review is of the two pages that mention the .458 Winchester Magnum, first called out as the "Winchester .458 Magnum" marked "Experimental" and packaged in a 1954-style cardboard box of 20 rounds. That must be what H. P. White Laboratory and General Hatcher were testing for NRA in late 1955, for publication in 1956, verifying all claims, using old decrepit powders and bullets. We have it so much better now, in bullets and powders, in the most perfected of rifle cartridges, which cannot be improved upon by mere humans.
FYI Over on the Gunrunner Auction site, Lot #300 a Ruger #1 Tropical in the great 458 WM, currently @ $810 Bucks, and ends Tomorrow. Also lot # 347 has 80 Rds. of Federal Premium Safari, and Winchester 458 WM Ammo.
I know if Kit Carson Had a need he'd be in on it!
I have no Horse in this Race, but I have dealt with this small Auction House, with no trouble.
Trailcam from Sir Jerry: Fire breathing hybrid of bear and tiger !
Might just be a baby, but might could grow to this size:
All the more reason to keep a .458 WM+ handy.
Keep your magazine full of solids. Generally, only a single shot of the proper soft from a .458 WinMag or .458 WM+ is required for anything on this planet. But the possibility of some alien creature recently landed in Oklahoma makes it wise to be prepared for a quick followup shot. Keep an eye peeled for UFOs and beam me up Scotty.
Pac-Nor 1:10" twist "Super Match" stainless on an FN Mauser. SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber. Sunny Hill drop box hanging below a Bell & Carlson Medalist stock. Recknagel safety from NECG. Timney trigger. Sourdough front sight. Cerakote finish. Ol' Fugly the .458 Lott and Woodie the Whitworth .458 WinRuger can wait.
Man that's good stuff Sir Ron, especially the bit with Sir Tony's box of 1956 ammunition, i had never given it much thought, but competition, propaganda and pure parrot speak could be the reasons behind near 70 years of 458 WM hatred, it was/is just too good, funny how the light from the rising sun plays in the trail cam, that boney little Bearcat certainly isnt the fat one i have other pics of ; ]
Because of unforeseen events arising with another hunt offered, the great 458 WM+ and 404gr Hammers at 2500 fps will get all shooting duties this Safari, if very nice species of animals cant be found on the original Safari, i'll hunt an additional 5 days at another locale, the 404gr Hammers will do all to 350 yards save fleeing buffalo, he'll get 500gr TBSS's at 2350 fps, i know that will cause loss of steering resulting in a crashing buffalo in a cloud of dust.
That FN/Pac-Nor build is going to be sweet! cant wait to see it when you get it all screwed together.
Sir Jerry, That's great News extending the Safari as your able. Opportunity's knocking! I agree Sir Ron keeps Us all informed along with all the additional added info, from the Square Table's Knights!
Nov. 1955 published lab data on the factory 500-gr FMJ showed 2087 fps instrumental in a 25" barrel. See bottom line of load data below (from NRA, Gen. Hatcher's RIFLEMAN article):
My 2080 fps in a 25" Shilen barrel was corrected to MV. But I think the Shilen groove diameter might have been 0.4585" instead of the tighter original 0.4582". And my temp was 50*F instead of 76*F. Just about identical results considering those differences in test bed, after 64 years on the shelf for your 1957 vintage. Buy a donkey for taking such good care of that factory ammo.
Nov. 1955 published lab data on the factory 500-gr FMJ showed 2087 fps instrumental in a 25" barrel. See bottom line of load data below (from NRA, Gen. Hatcher's RIFLEMAN article):
My 2080 fps in a 25" Shilen barrel was corrected to MV. But I think the Shilen groove diameter might have been 0.4585" instead of the tighter original 0.4582". And my temp was 50*F instead of 76*F. Just about identical results considering those differences in test bed, after 64 years on the shelf for your 1957 vintage. Buy a donkey for taking such good care of that factory ammo.
Inspirational material for Sir Jerry:
Sir Ron, That's great informational Load Data on the 458 WM from 1955 proven tried and true. 26 degrees difference in temps. and not much difference in results. That in itself is interesting Data. Adding onto the Barn, making more room for Donkeys! LOL!
That is hilarious. I am starting on a barn in my backyard soon as I finish The Queen's sunroom.
Our hero, Sir Jerry, requested I mark the FN of a Hornady DGS 480-grainer for a "classified mission" in Africa. I did so, as well as the base of a DGX-Bonded 480-grainer, using my Chinese-made, AA-battery-powered "Scratch-It Pro" engraving pen:
Above you see the two bullets resting atop Sir Jerry's H&H Royal 500/450 NE. We will have to wait for his safari to find out what this is all about. He will be using his .458 WM+ and the 404gr Shock Hammer for all manner of game, backed up by 500-gr TBSS in case the need for a southward aimed Portuguese Heart Shot arises on southbound bovine.
I presume the nostalgic double rifle will be used ceremoniously to celebrate the .450 NE ballistics that changed everything. H&H got tired of having to use John Rigby's .450 Rigby Special cartridge in their rifles for adoring sportsmen, after the 1898 frenzy. They even had to re-throat some of their later .450 BPE Farquharson rifles that could handle the new Cordite and new brass, when sportsman clamored for it. They called it "coning up the breech." This allowed the stronger, heavier-barreled single-shot rifles to transition from .450 BPE to .450 NE ammunition. Shades of the .458 Winchester Magnum throat to come.
So H&H came up with something "bigger and better" the 500/450 "H&H Special/Smokeless" delivering same ballistics at lesser pressure. Now they had a great excuse not to further John Rigby's domination. Then came the British ban of .450 bores in rebellious areas of India and Africa, circa 1905, and the Nitro Express Renaming Race was on. Many more duplications of .450 NE ballistics in double rifles followed. Shades of the .458 Winchester Magnum domination, denial, and resurrection to come.
Sir Jerry's mission is beyond Top Secret. Cosmic Squirrel level clearance is required for details. We will just have to wait for it ...
Speer cases loaded with 75 grains AA2230 behind 404 grain Shock Hammer COAL is 3.354" Need new battery before I can chronograph this load in my rifle
Replaced the battery and recorded the velocity, slower than the DGS. Went to 81 grains, heavily compressed at 3.386" velocity is now good
Buy a donkey for that 3.354" load data, Sir John. The 404gr Shock Hammer at 2391 fps instrumental with 75 grains of AA-2230: About smack on 2400 fps MV from a 24" barrel. Anything over 2300 fps is gravy for the meat and mashed potatoes. Hope you have space in the barn for another donkey. We welcome all-COL load data for the .458 WM with that bullet from ~3.28" to ~3.58".
Sir Jerry, That's great News extending the Safari as your able. Opportunity's knocking! I agree Sir Ron keeps Us all informed along with all the additional added info, from the Square Table's Knights!
Sir Tony, you bet, this deal blew up out of nowhere, i had to jump on it, Sir Ron does an exemplary job on history lessons AND inspirational photos and content, Thanks for the lesson on the British 450's to Sir Ron, the 465's were the result of that india/sudan/kenya/uganda army ban garbage, yet where are they today? i think crying at the great 458 cals return LOL, funny is the Great 458 WM+ with 500gr solids at 2350 while the old double has to regulate at 2148 with 480's, i hope it has enough power for the task at hand ; ]
Sir Ron, I like that your taking care of your queen, not that you need my approval, but it's very important, as you know! I enjoyed the Winchester Refresher coarse earlier on this page, as I used to run into Giles and Shuey at the OGCA Shows, as both are fine gentlemen, and a tribute to their fine work. That "TOP SECRET WORK", that Sir Jerry is working on will test Secret Squirrel at his best! Lol! Keep the great Info. coming as we're all learning a lot, from this great reference! Even going back and re reading the past post are so informative! I smell a Book in the Works!
Sir Jerry, We can't wait for the Stories! Pics, and the likes! It's like waiting for another Ernest Hemingway story!
"Sir Jerry Hemingway"
Kinda has a ring to it, Don't it! I know buying another "DONKEY"! lol!!!
LOL, all good Sir Tony and 44, i'm just getting old and thought i best get this rifle to Africa while we can still legally hunt there and export animals back to the states, the back story on my old Holland from previous owner is it has killed ten elephants, so the rifle has definitely btdt, it's one of those rifles one buys and has a very special place of reverence in the gun safe, i have to place those two bullets Sir Ron autographed into the animal at the correct angles so that both can be recovered and sent back to him with a movie on thumb drive of the event, this is going to be a really cool double safari.
Thanks to this thread I have been inspired to get a 458 Win Safari Model 70 and it's been so much fun! It's a 1MOA shooter with TSX bullets, both 300 grainers at 2667 and H4198 and 350 grainers at 2480 and H322. It's also MOA with 400 grain A-Frames at 2400+ and H322. Way more fun to shoot than the 500 grain factory and they penetrate like crazy! What a great fire-arm and cartridge combo but I am only getting 2 MOA with the 400 Branes Original Spitzers and though they mangle up on close range hits they do expand past 200 yards. Pretty versatile rig and one of my most fun firearms. Thanks folks!
Sir Tony, yep, we are going to make a book out of the movie instead of making a movie out of the book. Sir Jerry is doing the screen play which will be adapted to book form. Johnny Depp need not apply for casting. Sir Jerry has it covered. Hope Johnny stays sober and busy with suing the Washington Post and ACLU next. BTW, my Wife lived next door to Johnny when he was a baby in diapers, before he got weird. I bet Amber Heard has learned a lesson: Never poop where you sleep, and for sure don't lie in it nor lie about everything else.
Thanks to this thread I have been inspired to get a 458 Win Safari Model 70 and it's been so much fun! It's a 1MOA shooter with TSX bullets, both 300 grainers at 2667 and H4198 and 350 grainers at 2480 and H322. It's also MOA with 400 grain A-Frames at 2400+ and H322. Way more fun to shoot than the 500 grain factory and they penetrate like crazy! What a great fire-arm and cartridge combo but I am only getting 2 MOA with the 400 Branes Original Spitzers and though they mangle up on close range hits they do expand past 200 yards. Pretty versatile rig and one of my most fun firearms. Thanks folks!
North61, Buy a donkey. That is worthy of Knighthood. Pick your Sir Name, please. As Hand of King .458 Winchester I keep the roll of membership at The Square Table.
A cast bullet meant for the .461 Gibbs muzzleloader made the transition to smokeless cartridge, in the .458 WinMag.
That was an actual bullet diameter for grease-lubed, and the muzzleloader bore diameter was .461" also. Paper-patched slicks would be patched up to .461" diameter also. The smack of BP obturated the rear third of the bullet into the grooves, and the front two thirds of the bullet became a bore rider. The same system was used in the .461 Gibbs BPCR where bore was .461" and groove was about .471".
Much simpler in the .458 WinMag where a .461" bullet is simply squeezed down by the more gradual burn of smokeless. .461" bullet goes into .458"-.459" groove diameter and .450"-.451" bore diameter.
Truly accurate and effective rifle shooting for sport (target and hunting) has been dominated by the .45-bore from its beginnings. Circa 1850 to now is about 170 years of dominance, from muzzleloader to BPCR to current smokeless breechloaders. Since there is nothing on the horizon to suggest otherwise, the .458 WinMag will likely still be top of the heap for the bicentennial.
Rimfire transitioned to centerfire circa 1866 with the .50-70 Gov't. leading to the .45-70 Gov't. of 1873, and all the Sharps and Remington, etc., cartridges galore. Even though the UK held onto their muzzleloader target rifles longer than we did, they had similar developments in sporting and military cartridges, most notably the BPE of .450 bore and 3-1/4" case length that became the .450 NE. More fun along the way:
One hilarious side trip on this roadtrip was the Winchester bomb below: 200 grains of BP !
Finally, smokeless in the .30-40 Krag, same as with the .303 British transition from BP:
Funny how Winchester started doing the belted brass case before H&H did it. The .458 Winchester should be seen as having more of a purely American heritage.
So, John Rigby proved the ballistics requirement to put away the ponderous big bores of the past:
And Winchester replaced the ponderous-for-other-reasons double rifles with a practical bolt action repeater. It still cannot be beat. Seeking to do so is a sure sign of bore envy.
Mauser M98 or Winchester M70 or Ruger M77 with fast twist will see the .458 Winchester Magnum into the future with single loaded VLD rounds for target and long range hunting, and suppressed squib loads. Magazine loading of SAAMI loads for everything else except loading cast bullets in fast twist is not cool. Not in the .458 Winchester Magnum or any rifle. So, no flies on the standard SAAMI .458 WinMag.
Sir Tony, Buy another donkey for those flowers. With your new barn there will be room.
BTW, another reason to do a 1:10" twist .458 WinMag is because the SAAMI standard twist for the .458 Lott is 1:10" and we must leave no stone unturned in demonstrating the superiority of the .458 WinMag. It is unfair in some cases to compare a 1:14" .458 WinMag to a 1:10" .458 Lott.
Lottites are handicapped in cast bullet shooting by both the short and tight throat, that cannot even chamber a cast bullet of .461" diameter exposed above the case mouth, as well as the fast twist handicap that is not the best with cast bullets.
The coned up breech of the .458 WinMag does well with cast and jacketed, all bullets, including allowing .458 WM+ loads of 3.6" length with jacketed and monometals that are both faster and lower pressure than in the .458 Lott. This latter fact needs to be emphasized by also doing it with the fast twist "handicap" in a .458 Winchester Magnum. Lottite apologists must have no excuses.
The 1:10" .458 WinMag test rifle will be allowed the triple SAAMI whammie. Longer COL, higher pressure, faster twist. All the same as for a .458 Lott aka the ".458 Lot O' Trouble."
All true Sir Ron and lead me to do exactly what i just finished this morning, i went to ""The Alter of the SAAMI spec'd 458 WM"" to see just how much i could do at 3.340" and 500grs of Partition bullet fueled by AA-2460 powder, pics on the way, it was/is indeed eye opening LOL, so all the saami spec'd 458 men out there, be not dismayed, if you have a drop tube, some Accurate 2460 powder and 500grs of copper and lead you too can drive 2298 fps if you see the need.
IIRC Hodgdons site calls the 74gr charge of Accurate 2460 under 500 grainers at 53,000 psi, not 55, not 58, not 60, not 65K like the little 308 and 270 Winchester, and not a primer pocket swelling 75K, a lowly 53K, the 458 WM is truly a remarkable chambering, i have no pressure testing eq, but do remember the primers from the 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS looked great at 2418 fps and 2350 fps respectively and the pockets are still tight, those loads happily eat 83gr 2460 with col's in the 3.560-3.580 inch neighborhood.
I would have never thought of even trying for near 2300 fps with any 500gr bullet in my old FN saami length Browning, i had already loaded a literal chit-ton of 500gr partitions at 2166 with H-335 long before hearing about 2460 powder or having the pleasure of meeting Sir Ron, but as you'll see on the target box, those old loads are accurate hammers, the 50 yard bullseye was hit with a 500gr TBSS at 2200 fps with 2460 powder and the factory barrel sights, i gave it a bit more speed to run with the 500gr pointer partitions to land within the group at 100 with the scope, which it handily does, i shot it first, then screwed the scope back on with QD rings for the 100 yard group with the 500gr partitions, also, how's that for a return to zero setup? ; ]
If one wanted to shoot the 500gr partitions or 500gr PP Woodleighs when they resume production at 2300 fps, or the 450gr TSX's at 2400+ fps you'd easily have ALL game load to 300-350+ yards, the 404 Hammers at 2500 would give you 400 yards if you know your drops, that's pretty damn versatile.
Sir Jerry's words about his reunion with the SAAMI .458 WinMag, sounds like he had more fun than happens at any 50th Anniversary High School Class Reunion:
All true Sir Ron and lead me to do exactly what i just finished this morning, i went to ""The Alter of the SAAMI spec'd 458 WM"" to see just how much i could do at 3.340" and 500grs of Partition bullet fueled by AA-2460 powder, pics on the way, it was/is indeed eye opening LOL, so all the saami spec'd 458 men out there, be not dismayed, if you have a drop tube, some Accurate 2460 powder and 500grs of copper and lead you too can drive 2298 fps if you see the need.
IIRC Hodgdons site calls the 74gr charge of Accurate 2460 under 500 grainers at 53,000 psi, not 55, not 58, not 60, not 65K like the little 308 and 270 Winchester, and not a primer pocket swelling 75K, a lowly 53K, the 458 WM is truly a remarkable chambering, i have no pressure testing eq, but do remember the primers from the 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS looked great at 2418 fps and 2350 fps respectively and the pockets are still tight, those loads happily eat 83gr 2460 with col's in the 3.560-3.580 inch neighborhood.
I would have never thought of even trying for near 2300 fps with any 500gr bullet in my old FN saami length Browning, i had already loaded a literal chit-ton of 500gr partitions at 2166 with H-335 long before hearing about 2460 powder or having the pleasure of meeting Sir Ron, but as you'll see on the target box, those old loads are accurate hammers, the 50 yard bullseye was hit with a 500gr TBSS at 2200 fps with 2460 powder and the factory barrel sights, i gave it a bit more speed to run with the 500gr pointer partitions to land within the group at 100 with the scope, which it handily does, i shot it first, then screwed the scope back on with QD rings for the 100 yard group with the 500gr partitions, also, how's that for a return to zero setup? ; ]
If one wanted to shoot the 500gr partitions or 500gr PP Woodleighs when they resume production at 2300 fps, or the 450gr TSX's at 2400+ fps you'd easily have ALL game load to 300-350+ yards, the 404 Hammers at 2500 would give you 400 yards if you know your drops, that's pretty damn versatile.
Great work by Sir Jerry.
100-yard 3-shot with scope:
50-yard bughole group with iron sights:
That Browning Safari FN M98 .458 WinMag might be the most lethal elephant rifle on the planet. Ron "Mahohbo" Thomson used one like it to take over 6000 elephant ... But who's counting among friends anyway? ... as he might ask.
Great job Sir John, you're getting it done at saami too with those 450 TSX's, that wont buff out ; ]
Sir Ron, Thanks for posting the pics tonight, and earlier enlightenment from the pics a few days prior, i looked at those yesterday between rain and run chore work, went out at dark and loaded the round at 3.340 inch, gave her a good pinch with Lee die and all night to grow, pushed the button on mic this morning and still at 3.340 inch, didn't move! went to bed thinking about your earlier pictorial and remembering what i read on some other forum, hell, it may have been this one, someone was talking about us jacklegs here running the 458 long col's, using single shots, mag length actions, and trying to compare it to the lott etc, etc.
When i loaded the round at dark i knew what i was going to get on this morning, the rain lifted around 9:30, i went to work, fired a couple on the chrono, headed to the pasture, pulled scope and let loose at the box with the barrel sights, that's minute of buffalo brain at 50 yards! LOL, carried box to 100 and reinstalled scope, fired three and was already laughing hard, could see the hole getting bigger after the second shot, and bigger still on number three, got up to go get the box for pics, saw the front sight hood squenching away from the sight base, laughed some more, tip, any of you guys that want to load the great 458 WM up to it's true potential, borrow a cotton ball from your woman, rubbing alcohol the rails of the front sight base as well as rail on the sight hood, apply red loctite in grooves, wipe off excess, that's what i had to do with my M-70 458 WM+ firing 500gr TBSS's at 2350 fps.
I had to see what was possible within acceptable pressure at saami length, i hate smart mouthed rude people, wont engage, another reason i dont post in the jungle at the top of the page any longer, no need, it really sucks to try and discuss in person with those types, sucks worse when you have to roll them over on their bellies so they wont choke to death on their teeth, BTDT ; ] that said, and no pissing match parrot speak, bitching, bickering or calling names, just went to see what the old stud 458 WM was capable of at saami length, i was not disappointed.
Also Sir Ron, i dont remember your formula for converting to true muzzle velocity, if at least 18 feet from the chrono, i may have exceeded a full 2300 fps, really nice, and Thanks again Sir.
Yup, For Sir Jerry's 500-gr Nosler Partition, BC = 0.389 as reported by Nosler. If 18-feet or 6-yard velocity = 2298 fps (instrumental) at standard atmospheric conditions, then MV = 2311 fps.
Done with a compressed load of AA-2460 and 3.340" COL in a .458 WinMag factory rifle with 24" barrel ! Your mileage may vary, so start with 74 grains and work up, for any handloaders.
Equal the SAAMI .458 Lott with a SAAMI .458 WinMag.
Beat the SAAMI .458 Lott with a wildcatted .458 WM+.
Good to go after anything, anywhere, anytime, anyhow, yup.
If only all gun threads could match the timber and quality of this one. Only to be expected though when we are led to the quest for truth about the Magnificent and Wonderful 458WM by the Knights of the Square Table. F01
Sir Dennis, Faithful Knight of the Square Table, you are wise to the ways of the universe.
Circa 2006, Hornady was loading their "Heavy Magnum" loads for the .458 WinMag. In a 24" barrel of 1:14" twist they advertised 2260 fps MV for 500-gr RN InterBond soft as well as for the 500-gr FMJ RN Heavy Magnum loads.
Hornady advertised same bullets loaded in the .458 Lott factory ammo in a 24" barrel of 1:10" twist producing 2300 fps MV.
Some shooters in real life claimed to get those velocities in their rifles, others got less.
Whatever was actually produced, that is the realistic velocity difference between the .458 WinMag and .458 Lott when both are restricted to their SAAMI specifications. About 40 fps.
It is little wonder that if we let the .458 WinMag go to as high a pressure as the .458 Lott MAP, even if the .458 WinMag is restricted to 3.340" COL, then the .458 Lott eats dust.
Sir Jerry has shown us an ultimate, winning combo, a 500-grain Nosler Partition at +2300 fps MV from a standard-actioned Mauser M98 with 24" barrel.
No more powerful load is needed, nor is any lighter and handier rifle needed. In fact, one could easily do anything desired with many lesser loads and some well-balanced weight added to that rifle !
Phil Shoemaker had an 8-pound .458 WinMag Whitworth Mauser named Old Ugly. He added some lead to it and it became a 9-pounder named Old Ugly. Did not improve the rifle's looks at all.
Yes, fun stuff FO1, as Sir Ron said, i have to believe a 500gr partition at 2300 fps would lay a mighty heavy blow on ANY animal one would use a soft point bullet on.
Thanks to this thread I have been inspired to get a 458 Win Safari Model 70 and it's been so much fun! It's a 1MOA shooter with TSX bullets, both 300 grainers at 2667 and H4198 and 350 grainers at 2480 and H322. It's also MOA with 400 grain A-Frames at 2400+ and H322. Way more fun to shoot than the 500 grain factory and they penetrate like crazy! What a great fire-arm and cartridge combo but I am only getting 2 MOA with the 400 Branes Original Spitzers and though they mangle up on close range hits they do expand past 200 yards. Pretty versatile rig and one of my most fun firearms. Thanks folks!
Agreed on the quality of information on this thread and documented research and exploration. Riflecrank rejuvenated my interest in the 458 Winchester sometime ago. I thank him profusely for championing & getting the 404 Hammer into production. The 400 grainers has been where my interest was in the 458's. After Barnes dropped their 400 grain offering, must interest waned. Occasionally perked up by the Federal factory loaded 400 grain Trophy Bonded. But it lacked a bit of speed and bc for my full buy in. The 404 Hammer bullet offers both. Now much to Sir Ron's distaste for the SAMMI Lott. I am going to attempt to settle on a load for it and the 404 prior to the 458 Winchester. Mainly because I have a rifle in the Lott that I am really try to like a lot. In hind sight, I should have skipped the Lott and put together a stainless 458 Winchester as I was originally going to do. Actually that is still on the agenda. After this Lott load is done. It will be time for the 458 Winchester. That should be simple & easy enough since the guys on here have already invented the wheel. And have it rolling along exceptionally well. This research definitely has me wanting for a stainless 458 Winchester on a 3.6" action. I think, I have the solution for that.
... Now much to Sir Ron's distaste for the SAMMI Lott. I am going to attempt to settle on a load for it and the 404 prior to the 458 Winchester. Mainly because I have a rifle in the Lott that I am really trying to like a lot. In hind sight, I should have skipped the Lott and put together a stainless 458 Winchester as I was originally going to do. Actually that is still on the agenda. After this Lott load is done. It will be time for the 458 Winchester. That should be simple & easy enough since the guys on here have already invented the wheel. And have it rolling along exceptionally well. This research definitely has me wanting for a stainless 458 Winchester on a 3.6" action. I think, I have the solution for that.
Sir Larry, Condolences on the .458 Lott rifle. I know the misery of such ownership. You will be able to load the 404gr Shock Hammer to 3.58" COL only. The .458 WinMag allows COLs of 3.28", 3.38", 3.48" and 3.58". The SAAMI .458 Lott with 3.58" COL cannot compete with the .458 WinMag at same COL. But, you'll do OK. Just be careful not to load the SAAMI .458 Lott to same max load as the .458 WinMag. That might damage the .458 Lott, unless you run that SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into it first.
Speaking of 3.380" COL with a .458 WinMag, capable of 2500 fps with the 404gr Shock Hammer:
Sir Ron, 458 Lott, 404 grain Hammer bullet, 79 grains of RL-10x, 3 shots 2596, 2596, 2593 fps
I have to pull the card for the others. But the was definitely the least extreme spread.
WARNING : this Lott load is Not pressure tested. Seems okay in my rifle. More to be done with this and the Lott.
Sir Larry, I told you that you would do OK, didn't I ? Well, that would be just over 2600 fps MV with great st.dev., since extreme spread is only 3 fps for 3 shots. If the .458 Lott will do that at 3.58" COL with the 404gr Shock Hammer, the .458 WM+ will do more, I am sure. Good to know some great load data like that. What brass case and primer were you using, please ?
More on the 458 Lott, 404 grain Hammer bullet & RL-10x: Additional loads of 416 & 375 Rugers.
Several shots did not register. I believe I registered several from an adjacent shooter. Here is what I believe was legitimate for the 458 Lott, 24″ barrel.
Now I've a question for Sir Ron: From a longtime correspondent who wanted my opinion on how far he might go in using AA2230 behind a molly-coated 405gr in his Encore Prohunter in .45-90. COL is 3.30" and the chamber allows up to 3.55". So far he's gone to 70 grains without issues. He didn't give MV. I told him I'd ask the expert on the Campfire, as I've no experience with such a bullet.
So if you care to respond, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Bob www.bigbores.ca (current blog involves Winchester's original series of their first four magnums - beginning, of course, with the father of them all)
More on the 458 Lott, 404 grain Hammer bullet & RL-10x: Additional loads of 416 & 375 Rugers.
Several shots did not register. I believe I registered several from an adjacent shooter. Here is what I believe was legitimate for the 458 Lott, 24″ barrel.
Sir John, My ultimate ideal goal is to have a consistent/accurate load of at least 2450 fps from a 22" barrel. If this MRC hangs around, the barrel will be cut to 22". 2450 fps will give the point and shoot trajectory and sufficient velocity for my "long-range" of 230 yds. No doubt the near 2600 fps would knock the lateral crap out most anything with this 404 Hammer. Sir Ron created a heck of a booster shot for the 458's with this bullet. One that really works.
Now I've a question for Sir Ron: From a longtime correspondent who wanted my opinion on how far he might go in using AA2230 behind a molly-coated 405gr in his Encore Prohunter in .45-90. COL is 3.30" and the chamber allows up to 3.55". So far he's gone to 70 grains without issues. He didn't give MV. I told him I'd ask the expert on the Campfire, as I've no experience with such a bullet.
So if you care to respond, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Bob www.bigbores.ca (current blog involves Winchester's original series of their first four magnums - beginning, of course, with the father of them all)
Sir Bob, Looking forward to that latest blog. Regarding the .45-90 TC Encore with 14" barrel and a muzzle brake, if he is doing well with 70 grains of AA-2230 at 3.30" COL, and could actually seat it out another 0.25" with that unspecified 405-gr with moly coating, he must have a bit of throat, more than usual on a .45-90 ?
That is a 2.4" case length and he would be hanging 1.15" of bullet length in front of the case mouth. That does not make sense with the usual cup & core 405-grainer being only about 1 inch long. I would tend to tell him to not go any higher in charge. Leave well enough alone.
Like you, I would want to know more specifics on the bullet and what velocity he is getting. Moly won't do much. Maybe his break-open action will handle about 50,000 psi with the .45-90, and he might be there with his 70 grains. Is his brass good stuff like Starline ? We are just whistling past the unknowns here.
Sir Larry, Thanks again for providing load data for the .458 Lott with RL-10X and the 404gr Shock Hammer. I cannot do all powders myself, but I can easily extrapolate SAAMI .458 Lott hot loads to .458 WM+ starting loads.
Remember that something as mundane as a compressed H4895 MAX load in the .458 Lott (from the Woodleigh manual) can be turned into a lower pressure and faster velocity load with the same bullet in a .458 WM+.
I am really starting to like the 24" barrel length. 23" is as short as I want to go. 25" is as long as I want to go. I am no midget or giant. 24" is just right, like Goldilocks prefers. My ancestors poked around with 44"-long barrels and lived to procreate despite Darwin.
I am also happy with any SAAMI .458 WM, as long as I can use it as both a single-shot .458 WM+ and as a magazine repeater with shorter COL. Non-stretched M98, M70, or M77 are fantastical in this regard. M70 Long Action, Magnum Mauser, or Ruger No. 1 all go bang for me too. What is not to like about the .458 Winchester Magnum, except for .458 Lott lovers needing to justify their pet ?
Your thoughts echo some of my own. I mentioned to him that the TC Encore should handle up to about 50,000 psi. Your suggestion that 70 grains of 2230 should be a limit, reinforces my thinking. Thanks.
On Friday past, I also fired about 20 handloads from my son's Traditions .44 mag. He registered results as I fired. That went well. Then, I also fired a few 225gr AccuBonds from my Traditions G3 in .35 Whelen. It's the load I've settled on for "come what may". Three into .67" at 100 yards from a corrected to MV of exactly 2850 fps. Formula: Rem brass, WLRM primers, 69 grains of CFE 223 at 3.45" COL.
And many "donkeys" for all you've done and still do: There's great stuff in those recent posts.
Sir Ron, As that song goes, I ain't asking for much. Standard length, stainless 458 Winchester, 22" barrel, 404 Hammer, and 2400 fps. That velocity could be 2350 fps and personal satisfaction could be achieved without sedatives being administered.
I think my near ideal .458 rifle idea is a stainless Ruger Mark II / Hawkeye re-barrel to 458 Winchester, with Ruger's 416 Ruger Alaskan barrel contour, 22".
Sir Bob's blog latest has a passage to make the deniers/liars weep:
"In my view, Winchester did a great job in producing that series of four in the late ’50s and early ’60s, that have really never been improved on by their “Short Magnums”, nor other brands and iterations. The .458 is still a factory standard for African DG firing a 500gr at 2130 to 2150 fps (over 5000 ft-lbs), and handloads that equal or surpass the Lott (to 6000 ft-lbs); the 300 is a world class cartridge for big game at any realistic range as well as a favorite for target shooting. The .338 is still a serious choice in Alaska for its overgrown moose and bears, and the .264, despite a lot of negative press and more than enough competition, is still alive and capable of “getting the job done” on anything to meet Winchester’s intentions – at stretched ranges.
"Long may they live! ...
"And despite its critics, the father of them all – the .458 is not only able to fulfil its promises, but is better than ever!"
Amen ! So said this choir receiving that message.
All of those Fabulous Four chamberings have leade-only throats with no parallel-sided freebore. The three smaller bores have more obtuse leade angles, but the diameter at the start of the leade is pretty much proportional to caliber in all. The chamber length of the .458 WM is 0.020" longer than brass maximum, but all three of the others (.338, .264, and .300 WinMag) have 0.024" for max brass length to stretch into on firing. Maybe that is because SAAMI limits the .458 WM to only 60,000 psi MAP while the other three get to go to 64,000 psi MAP, even greater than the .458 Lott MAP of 62,500 psi !
That tells me that the .458 WM+ ought to be allowed MAP of 64,000 psi and really leave the .458 Lott behind, eating dust.
Sir Scotty, If you have a Ruger No. 1 .45-90-2.4", just give it a SAAMI .458 WM throat and go to town with Starline brass in that strong rifle. Sir Bob equaled or exceeded SAAMI .458 WM loads with his .45-70-2.1" Long Throat Ruger No. 1. The .45-70 Elko Magnum of the 1990s, CIP homologated, is actually a .45-100-2.6" case with a .458 WM throat. I figure they meant 70 grains of smokeless instead of 70 grains of BP in calling it a .45-70, since they did call it a "Magnum" .45-70, after all.
Sir Ron, As that song goes, I ain't asking for much. Standard length, stainless 458 Winchester, 22" barrel, 404 Hammer, and 2400 fps. That velocity could be 2350 fps and personal satisfaction could be achieved without sedatives being administered.
I think my near ideal .458 rifle idea is a stainless Ruger Mark II / Hawkeye re-barrel to 458 Winchester, with Ruger's 416 Ruger Alaskan barrel contour, 22".
Sir Larry, 2400 fps with the 404gr Shock Hammer from a 22" barrel is no problemo, from either +3.340" box or +3.600" box. The Ruger mag boxes are a little over 3.400" inside length, about 3.42" IIRC. That stainless Ruger M77 Mk II/Hawkeye, 22"-barreled .458 WM will weigh 7 pounds or less in a Canoe Paddle stock. That is where you might want to download to 2350 fps with the 404gr. About like Buffalo Bore factory loads with 400-gr TSX. Tim Sundle claims about 2250 fps with his Buffalo Bore load from a custom 18" barrel, and same with a 22" factory barrel ... it happens, as Forrest Gump would say.
Anywho, Sir Jerry has paved the way. +2300 fps with a 500-gr Nosler at 3.340" COL from a 24" barrel. Your 22" barrel can easily do +2200 fps with a 500-grainer and shortCOL. Sir Jerry gets about 2350 fps with the 500-gr TBSS .458 WM+ at less than 3.600" COL, 24" barrel.
He has also verified 3.480" COL with the 404gr Shock Hammer to be accurate and functional at 2500 fps. You don't have to believe just me on that.
I can also do +2350 fps with a 450-gr CEB brass FN solid at 3.340" COL from a 24" barrel. Shorten that barrel to 22" and +2300 fps is still easy. 450-gr/.458 FN solids at 2300 fps are proven elephant killers.
Any .458 WM rifle, standard box or long, is capable of doing it all. That is why I am going with an FN Mauser for my 1:10" twist experiments. Saving the .375 H&H/Wby M70 Classic Stainless for a JES rebore at 1:14" twist, like Sir Jerry got.
1856 to 1956 was the century required for the .458 WinMag to be perfected. It has only gotten better with age, from new powders and bullets. Oliver F. Winchester was in on the ground floor, hiring and financing from 1856 onward in his lifetime. .22 Rimfire short by S&W in 1858. .44 Henry Rimfire in 1860, by New Haven Arms Co. .44-40 Winchester Centerfire in 1873, by Winchester Repeating Arms Co., won the west. .458 Winchester Magnum in 1956, by WRAC also, won the world.
Sir Scotty, If you have a Ruger No. 1 .45-90-2.4", just give it a SAAMI .458 WM throat and go to town with Starline brass in that strong rifle. Sir Bob equaled or exceeded SAAMI .458 WM loads with his .45-70-2.1" Long Throat Ruger No. 1. The .45-70 Elko Magnum of the 1990s, CIP homologated, is actually a .45-100-2.6" case with a .458 WM throat. I figure they meant 70 grains of smokeless instead of 70 grains of BP in calling it a .45-70, since they did call it a "Magnum" .45-70, after all.
Great G2 RC. I haven't jumped into the fire yet with that boomer due to a few other things going on but I will keep your PM box fired up once I get to it. It's a dandy of a rifle, as is my 458. Those big 45's are alot of fun. I didn't actually think I'd like to shoot them as much as I do. You all running every combo known to man is hard to watch, cause I wanna try them all!
Sir Ron, As that song goes, I ain't asking for much. Standard length, stainless 458 Winchester, 22" barrel, 404 Hammer, and 2400 fps. That velocity could be 2350 fps and personal satisfaction could be achieved without sedatives being administered.
I think my near ideal .458 rifle idea is a stainless Ruger Mark II / Hawkeye re-barrel to 458 Winchester, with Ruger's 416 Ruger Alaskan barrel contour, 22".
Sir Larry, 2400 fps with the 404gr Shock Hammer from a 22" barrel is no problemo, from either +3.340" box or +3.600" box. The Ruger mag boxes are a little over 3.400" inside length, about 3.42" IIRC. That stainless Ruger M77 Mk II/Hawkeye, 22"-barreled .458 WM will weigh 7 pounds or less in a Canoe Paddle stock. That is where you might want to download to 2350 fps with the 404gr. About like Buffalo Bore factory loads with 400-gr TSX. Tim Sundle claims about 2250 fps with his Buffalo Bore load from a custom 18" barrel, and same with a 22" factory barrel ... it happens, as Forrest Gump would say.
Anywho, Sir Jerry has paved the way. +2300 fps with a 500-gr Nosler at 3.340" COL from a 24" barrel. Your 22" barrel can easily do +2200 fps with a 500-grainer and shortCOL. Sir Jerry gets about 2350 fps with the 500-gr TBSS .458 WM+ at less than 3.600" COL, 24" barrel.
He has also verified 3.480" COL with the 404gr Shock Hammer to be accurate and functional at 2500 fps. You don't have to believe just me on that.
I can also do +2350 fps with a 450-gr CEB brass FN solid at 3.340" COL from a 24" barrel. Shorten that barrel to 22" and +2300 fps is still easy. 450-gr/.458 FN solids at 2300 fps are proven elephant killers.
Any .458 WM rifle, standard box or long, is capable of doing it all. That is why I am going with an FN Mauser for my 1:10" twist experiments. Saving the .375 H&H/Wby M70 Classic Stainless for a JES rebore at 1:14" twist, like Sir Jerry got.
Sir Ron, Pretty much my usual COAL in various Rugers has been 3.350". I have the donor rifle a Ruger Mark II stainless currently in 300 Winchester. It was a former boat-paddle. But, has a new B&C stock with the aluminum bedding block.
I don't recall the present weight. I am guessing, depending on what scope with rings, and sights go on it, that will add close 1.5 pounds. A similar set up in 300 Winchester with a 2.5-10x50 scope weighs 9# 4.9 ounces.
This MRC stainless 24" 458 Lott weighs 9# 9.5 ounces with scope and 1.4 ounces of lens covers. CZ 458 Lott, 22" barrel with same scope and lens covers is 9# 11.6 ounces.
I think, I will end up around 9-9.5 pounds. My 20" 416 Ruger in a McMillan weighs about 9# 10 ounces, with a 20 ounce scope. The somewhat surprise, some B&C with aluminum bedding block weigh slightly less than McMillians with molded in colors and mag-fill in the action/recoil area.
Ah ha, so that is LabRadar MV. Needs no 5-yard correction to MV.
Sorry, Sir Larry, you did not break 2600 fps MV with your .458 Lott. The .458 WinMag+ did it with a starting load, haha. No need for such speed. Lesser speed do kill. Your .458 WinMag build recipes are much more interesting than circumcising your .458 Lott to 22". Just my take. To each his own madness makes the world go round, haha.
I am interested in squib loads for the .458 WM, something to imitate function like its ancestors: .22 Short Rimfire and .44 WCF. For starting reference, the .44 WCF Cowboy Load with Trail Boss:
And a good load test snagged from an internet video, factory smokeless of recent make .44 WCF, still going after 149 years , just like the .45-70 G and the .45 LC:
Trail Boss loads for the .458 WinMag:
A barely subsonic 400-gr Lee Hollow Base FN of 20:1 alloy, PC-painted, might turn the .458 WM into a real rabbit rifle ! There may yet be a good use for the soft 400-gr Speers, subsonic and suppressed, for small game.
Reminds me how the US government screwed up a trial of the .458 1.3" belted with 500gr FMJ bullets at 1100 fps, for sentry elimination at 100 yards, in Vietnam. What a Rube Goldberg contraption they created ! 14 pounds and long barrel, they built a couple and scrapped the project with no bona fide field use. Silencer looked like a watercooled machinegun barrel shroud from WW1. Could have been done with a short-barreled, faster twist .458 WM 2.5" and a standard silencer. Could have been shorter overall length, and 4 pounds lighter. Might have been practical then.
Still no progress on a 400-gr FN copper solid from Hammer. Hammer does make a couple of other interesting bullets:
I might settle for the .427 Claw Hammer enlarged to .458-caliber and stretched to 400-grains with a flat base. That .355 Jack Hammer would make a good defensive load in Phil Shoemaker's pocket pistol for brown bear discouragement. Maybe the meplat could be filled in for an FN and likewise enlarged to .458-400gr Flat Base Flat Head. Call it the Flat Jack Hammer. Haha.
Sir Larry, you're gassing her up pretty well, if accuracy is there that'd be a great load at 2600 fps, nice work.
Sir Ron, us using the burn rates of 2230/2460 powders work mighty well with 450 TSX/Woodleigh etc and the 500 grainers, if you/we really want to push the 404 Hammers to max speed in the 458 WM+ mho is to use AA-2015, it's a hell of a great powder and will boost the lighter bullet faster and at safe pressures over the slower burning 2230/2460 powders.
Sir Jerry, Great idea. AA-2015BR is sometimes listed with the "Bench Rest" designation for its consistency and ignition characteristics. It is a single-base, extruded powder, burns faster but requires less powder weight to get higher velocity AND pressure than the AA-2230 or AA-2460s, both double-base spherical/ball powders. Interestingly AA-2460s has that "s" listed sometimes too, which I SWAG is to emphasize that it is the un-flattened, fully spherical form of AA-2230. AA-2230 is the one with about half of its granules "pre-compressed."
76 grains of 2015 probably gets slightly compressed like the max loads for 2230 and 2460 with 400-gr bullet and 3.140" COL as shown in the table below. 2015 gives the highest MV and the highest (submaximal) pressure in the modest data below for 400-gr Barnes "Old Original" SSSP:
AA-2015BR should be a good one. Only drawback might be temperature sensitivity. I don't know about that being any problem for most situations.
Burn Rate charts below suggest other good neighbor powders: Anything good in the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO. Alliant Power Pro 1200-R would probably be a humdinger with the 404gr Shock Hammer.
Sheesh, I wish I could do them all ! Just goes to show what a great cartridge the .458 WM is with so many good powders.
Sir Jerry, it will be a few weeks before I have the opportunity to shoot the rifle for groups at least 100. I am hopeful, this MRC does seem to want to shoot well.
I have also thought that 2215 might be a good choice for the Winchester. But, I was dang lucky to snag the 2230 & 2460 that I have. It was the Only that I have seen in months.
Sir Jerry, Great idea. AA-2015BR is sometimes listed with the "Bench Rest" designation for its consistency and ignition characteristics. It is a single-base, extruded powder, burns faster but requires less powder weight to get higher velocity AND pressure than the AA-2230 or AA-2460s, both double-base spherical/ball powders. Interestingly AA-2460s has that "s" listed sometimes too, which I SWAG is to emphasize that it is the un-flattened, fully spherical form of AA-2230. AA-2230 is the one with about half of its granules "pre-compressed."
76 grains of 2015 probably gets slightly compressed like the max loads for 2230 and 2460 with 400-gr bullet and 3.140" COL as shown in the table below. 2015 gives the highest MV and the highest (submaximal) pressure in the modest data below for 400-gr Barnes "Old Original" SSSP:
AA-2015BR should be a good one. Only drawback might be temperature sensitivity. I don't know about that being any problem for most situations.
Burn Rate charts below suggest other good neighbor powders: Anything good in the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO. Alliant Power Pro 1200-R would probably be a humdinger with the 404gr Shock Hammer.
Sheesh, I wish I could do them all ! Just goes to show what a great cartridge the .458 WM is with so many good powders.
Good stuff Sir Ron, i think the reason for more pressure with the old Barnes is because of it's pure copper jacket, akin to the Swift A Frames and pressure, mighty sticky/grabby alloy, massive bearing surface notwithstanding, the Hammers with their radiused/smooth grooves and harder less sticky alloy build much less pressure, example, the little 9mm bullet you showed, AA#7 is a world star powder in the 9MM with 135-147gr bullets, the little 137 Hammer will fly to max velocity at except able pressures with AA#5, same/same with 2015 vs 2230/2460 with the 404 Hammers, i bet it'd be a load for the ages.
Sir Larry, you bet, will be interesting to see what the targets say, in truth, anything between 2400-2600+ fps and beyond is going to be a hell of a load for anything, as Sir Ron said, we just dont have the time for it all, but damn we're having a blast with what we can get lit ; ]
F01, you bet Sir, i remember 2015 powder in a Rem classic 35 Whelen i bought new around 1995, i also remember the price delivered, 358 bucks, same as bore diameter LOL, i pushed 225gr partitions at exactly 2750 fps, it was a hell of a load that no one at the range could believe, first for accuracy then the velocity, no one that i knew of was doing that with the Whelen and 225 bullets in those days, particularly with 22 inches of barrel, it was a great rifle.
BTW, those 220gr solids you gave me will magnetize, Maw Hornady put steel in those boogers back in the day ; ]
Agree on the grabby/sticky "lubricity" (or lack of it) with the soft copper-jackets compounding the barrel friction with their full-bearing shanks. Swift A-Frames do that too. The Hammer PDR bands and GSC HV drive bands do seem to give higher velocity at lower pressures by my SWAG-ometer readings. Ditto the slick, bronze/brass banded Federal TBSS with lead core, and the banded brass bullets from CEB and the defunct Barnes Banded Solids. Extra bullet length allows getting pressures and velocities up by increased seating depth with lesser powder charge. One can make a 3.34" COL almost equal a 3.60" COL, but not quite. More powder and more recoil with the faster 3.6" COL. Hell's bells, a maximum load in a .458 WM+ is going to out-do a maximum load in a SAAMI .458 Lott in many ways.
On a different subject: Alas, my .375 H&H M70 Classic Stainless from New Haven was rechambered to .375 WBY long ago. A .458 re-bore by JES and rechamber won't clean up the chamber. Less case-body taper in the .375 WBY than in the .458 WinMag is the culprit. At 2.520" from breech face, the .458 WinMag chamber ends at 0.483" reamer max diameter, where the case mouth chamfer starts. At 2.407" from breech face , the .375 WBY reamer diameter is 0.496" max diameter, where the WBY shoulder starts "venturifying." That would make for a bulged and ringed .458 WinMag chamber if not set back. Looks like a new 1:14"-twist barrel is needed, for a switch-barrel .458 WM+/.375 WBY on the M70.
First comes the fast-twist M98 .458 WinMag with 24"-long, Pac-Nor No. 5 sporter contour, 1:10" twist. Heaviest bullets subsonic and suppressed for head shots on any varmint at 100 yards. No shortening of case to 1.3" with 2-foot-long, fat suppressor shroud around the barrel of a 14-pound rifle is needed. Just sayin'. AA-2230 was developed for the 223, haha.
It was 60 grains of AA2015 that gave over 2000 fps from a 500gr Hornady in my Ruger #1 in .45-70 (before the second #1 Ruger got the long throat). The specifics were sent to Accurate and they got nearly 2100 fps from 63,200 psi in a 24" test barrel with the bullet seated to 2.83" instead of the 2.93" of my load. (Their barrel had a shorter throat). Bill Falen Jr. phoned me later with the results and asked about the recoil - there were no concerns over the psi, as mine would have been a bit less, and due to the very strong action of the #1 Ruger. He was obviously impressed and had never seen those results previously. AA2015 was my favorite powder for a long time in .45-70s. It's ironic, I suppose, but the MV from that 500gr Hornady from my first #1 Ruger with a 22" barrel was 2015 fps from AA2015.
Like others here, 2015 became my favorite for my first .35 Whelen. I was getting ~2600 from 250s in the Rem M7400. Later, I went to RL-15.
I have a couple of pounds of AA-2015BR. I better try it with the 404gr Hammer. Looking for a +2600 fps load of less powder weight than 87 grains of compressed H4895. The reduced recoil will help with shooting long strings at benchrest matches. The .458 WM+ may be the next 6mm PPC.
Speaking of reduced recoil, I have never used Trail Boss. Stay tuned for subsonic 300 to 500 grainers. Could make the .22 rimfire obsolete.
The data above and below suggests maybe Alliant Power Pro 1200-R was the powder in the Federal 500-gr Fusion load.
1200-R is a faster powder than Alliant Power Pro Varmint, but a greater charge (compressed) of the Varmint gave higher velocity than with the 1200-R. For charges in a factory load, the non-compressed, lesser charge of the faster powder would likely be preferred, for ease of machine loading.
Might be a similar thing going on with AA-2015BR being slightly slower than AA-2200, but giving higher velocity with a greater charge. However, for the handloader, the larger charge of the AA-2015BR would be preferred, since it beats all other "AA" powders for MV with a 400-grainer in the .458 WinMag ShortCOL. Increasing the COL would allow even more powder with less or no compression. Sounds like a job for the .458 WM+, even though the SAAMI "governed" load will do just fine.
Old factory load data review with highlighted advertised MV for 6 loads, all are 5-shot averages in same rifle, same day, 46 degrees F: 24" M70 Super Grade .458 WM
All these factory loads will make bloody big holes in dangerous game, much to the chagrin of the deniers of the .458 WinMag. The Lottite proganda has failed, big time.
You'll get that 404 humming with AA-2015 Sir Ron, i'm quiet happy at 2500 fps with 2460, that load is so low pressured it wont matter if i'm tracking buffalo in 110 degree weather, i'm ready to go now, just finishing up paperwork for rifle registration.
That is hilarious. I am starting on a barn in my backyard soon as I finish The Queen's sunroom.
Our hero, Sir Jerry, requested I mark the FN of a Hornady DGS 480-grainer for a "classified mission" in Africa. I did so, as well as the base of a DGX-Bonded 480-grainer, using my Chinese-made, AA-battery-powered "Scratch-It Pro" engraving pen:
Above you see the two bullets resting atop Sir Jerry's H&H Royal 500/450 NE. We will have to wait for his safari to find out what this is all about. He will be using his .458 WM+ and the 404gr Shock Hammer for all manner of game, backed up by 500-gr TBSS in case the need for a southward aimed Portuguese Heart Shot arises on southbound bovine.
I presume the nostalgic double rifle will be used ceremoniously to celebrate the .450 NE ballistics that changed everything. H&H got tired of having to use John Rigby's .450 Rigby Special cartridge in their rifles for adoring sportsmen, after the 1898 frenzy. They even had to re-throat some of their later .450 BPE Farquharson rifles that could handle the new Cordite and new brass, when sportsman clamored for it. They called it "coning up the breech." This allowed the stronger, heavier-barreled single-shot rifles to transition from .450 BPE to .450 NE ammunition. Shades of the .458 Winchester Magnum throat to come.
So H&H came up with something "bigger and better" the 500/450 "H&H Special/Smokeless" delivering same ballistics at lesser pressure. Now they had a great excuse not to further John Rigby's domination. Then came the British ban of .450 bores in rebellious areas of India and Africa, circa 1905, and the Nitro Express Renaming Race was on. Many more duplications of .450 NE ballistics in double rifles followed. Shades of the .458 Winchester Magnum domination, denial, and resurrection to come.
Sir Jerry's mission is beyond Top Secret. Cosmic Squirrel level clearance is required for details. We will just have to wait for it ...
TTT for 6MMWASP, he wanted to see a pic of the old Holland Royal.
Hope the heat has not been too hard on your cattle. I saw the beef cattle were dropping by the thousands in Kansas. Sam's Club New York Strip was already almost $15 per pound. Let's go Brandon !
I am getting the AA-2015BR loads ready with the 404gr Shock Hammer. Been too hot lately. Sub-90*F range time desired for the initial experimentation. Sub-100*F heat index desired too, for a day that does not make me sweat like a Democrat trying to say something true.
Reading further in Giles & Shuey revealed the list of bullet weights Winchester used in the .45-70: 130, 140, 200, 230, 235, 240, 330, 350, 405 and 500 grains. That would include all types of smokeless and BP loads and lead and jacketed bullets. 140-grainer was a roundball of pure lead, 130-gr was a .45 Schofield revolver bullet of 16:1. I have some .457" Hornady roundball that weigh about 144 grains. Will try 20-ish grains of Trail Boss and similar amount of AA-5744. To keep it simple, no fillers, wads or gas seals, but I will powder-coat-paint-patch the balls to make them a little fatter. Should be fun.
Funny that Winchester had to play catchup on the .45-70, what with the Marlin Model 1881 arriving before the Winchester Model 1886. Winchester ammo boxes did not even call out for the "Model 1886" until 1894. "Prior to this, the '45-70 Marlin' loading was specified in the catalogs for M86s chambered in .45-70." So said Giles & Shuey.
Duplicating .45-70 ballistics with the .458 WinMag is fun. Whether aged 149 years or 66 years, they are both cartridges of enormous endurance and utility. Birds of a feather.
Sharps released the .45-2.6" about November 1876, and dropped it for the .45-2.4" about June 1877, loaded with same powder charge and bullet as the longer case. History is replete with many similar examples, and history keeps repeating itself. The .458-2.8" case has been dropped in favor of the .458-2.5" case.
Winchester manufactured ARMORY PRACTICE loads meant for .45-70 Trapdoor rifles, using BP and soft lead. Two are shown in Giles & Shuey:
First listed in 1892 ... 5 gr. of BP and 140-gr round ball of pure lead ... sort of like a .45-05-140-2.1" Sharps, haha.
Then in 1897 Winchester made one they actually called a ".45-20 Solid Head Centerfire Cartridge ... U.S. Government Standard for Armory Practice." It used the 130-gr 45 Schofield revolver bullet (16:1, lead:tin) atop 20 grains of BP.
Accuracy probably was not so important for parlor loads used at close range, and for "live fire" drills.
The 66-y.o. youngster has some catching up to do on the 149-y.o. regarding the light-weight "practice" bullets. Paper-patching of .45-cal handgun bullets might allow checking off a few more weights in the .458 WinMag.
Good reason for hunting Kodiak deer with a .458 WinMag: (from Newsweek web site today)
"Dying Bear Kills Russian Hunter That Shot It by Crushing His Skull" Robyn White - 7h ago
The 62-year-old hunter had attempted to kill the bear from a platform in the Tulun district of the Irkutsk region of Russia, shortly before the animal turned on him, Russian news agency Interfax reported.
As the hunter came down from the platform, the bear crushed the unnamed man's skull, and began clawing at him.
Having been declared missing, the hunter's bloodied corpse was found after a search party patrolled the forest.
He was discovered with claw and fang wounds. The bear's carcass was found about 54 yards away from the man.
"The mortally wounded predator managed to inflict an injury from which the hunter died," the regional office of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs told Interfax.
There are an estimated 13,000 wild bears in the Irkutsk region.
Between 1991–2017, there were 264 recorded bear attacks in Russia. Most of these occurred on the Pacific Coast and in Siberia, where bear populations are higher.
The .458 WinMag throat works wonders. Physics does not lie. Those who don’t believe it end up confused, or just get angrily defiant of the truth. Sort of like Joe Biden.
The .458 WinMag throat works wonders. Physics does not lie. Those who don’t believe it end up confused, or just get angrily defiant of the truth. Sort of like Joe Biden.
Interesting that no mention was made of just what weapon was used to try to kill the bear. ? spear, archery, pistol, rifle ??? Or why the hunter came down from the platform where the bear could get to him. ???
Agreed that the .458 win mag could handle the bear.
Sir Tony, Buy a donkey for that amen. The thread is still very much alive, despite summer interferences of several types. I have not shot a .458 WinMag for too long now, getting blue balls here.
Will use a 7.25-pound M70 Classic .458 WM+ (Marcella Winchester-McGowen) for the squib loads, looking for 1100 fps accuracy loads with the PC-painted lead. Same velocity with the Sierra 300-grainer and Speer 400-grainer might be useful for jacketed squib loads, so as not to over-expand/disintegrate those bullets either. Rook & Rabbit bullets.
The roundball, Hornady .457"/144-grainer swaged lead, has grown to .460"/145-grainer as a blue ball, after 2 coats of Eastwood Ford Light Blue. The LEE ".459-405-HB" is a 375-grainer in Linotype, will be sized to 0.461", shown un-sized above.
The 404-gr Shock Hammer is loaded with AA-2015BR. So as not to mix the barrel fouling, and so as to ease the recoil, the Hammers will be fired in a CZ 550 Magnum, Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ. This will allow comparison to a previous select load with AA-2230 in the same rifle: 81.0 grains of AA-2230 in 25" Shilen barrel, W-W brass, F-215 primer, COL 3.480", 39*F: MV = 2517 fps and accurate. I SWAG that the AA-2015BR will produce higher velocity, just as Sir Jerry predicted. A higher ambient temperature will not be a hindrance of this.
Sir Jerry has a great load with AA-2460s for Tropical safari use, about 2500 fps in his 24" stainless JES re-bore barrel. 83.0 grains AA-2460s, same COL, brass, primer, 2483 fps MV at 55*F, IIRC.
Interesting that no mention was made of just what weapon was used to try to kill the bear. ? spear, archery, pistol, rifle ??? Or why the hunter came down from the platform where the bear could get to him. ???
Agreed that the .458 win mag could handle the bear.
Sir Charles, Such details are not to be expected in a Lame Stream Media article. Maybe more details will show up elsewhere, but it it was not a proud moment for the Russian Darwin Award winner.
I always think of the "I could've had a V-8" vegetable juice ads when I see this detail from a David Wright painting ...
... and I imagine James Watts saying "I should've had a 4-5-8" as he is searching the stream for the holstered .45 Long Colt that the bear clawed off his waist as it barreled over him with a single .375 H&H bullet hole through it. Good thing the bear kept going and died on the other side of the creek. Black Rapids Creek.
It has been a long time since I have conversed on the greatness of the 458, having been a former C/D league participant in the discussion on the forum which shall not be named. It is good to see the mission is still in full force and am glad that I was able to find this forum.
I offer the following information. My family ended up on a safari in June that was planned and executed in a time frame of fewer than 3 months. Since I had little time to prep and no time to develop any new loads, I decided that I would participate with a 458 win mag Ruger No. 1 (2-7 Leupold) that had not been blooded in 27+ years of ownership with a load (below) that shoots well in it. Additionally, I would bring a double in 450 nitro express. For me, this was a 458 safari.
The 458 load was a 350 gr TSX, 77.2 gr of H4895, 3.44 oal. This achieves an average velocity of 2553 fps out of the 24” Ruger barrel (measured at 10 ft with no adjustment). Pedestrian compared to the 458 wm+, but effective nonetheless, out to 200yds on this trip. Photos here show a cape kudu and the entry-exit on a 110 meter shot.
A number of other animals were taken however none of these bullets were recovered.
As an aside, this particular load provides around 1970 fps out of a 458 win mag 15" encore pistol barrel.
The double 450, with Hornady 480gr DGXs, was used on a springbok at 100+ meters with the expected results. Furthermore, I was able to participate in culling some old cape buffalo cows from a friend's property and you will see below the DGX bullet after it had passed through one cow and through the spine of another. You will note that the petals were sheared from the shank and we were unable to locate them.
Those are two of my favorite bullets from the .458 - the 350 TSX and 480 DGX. For information only: ~2750 fps from the 350 TSX using a max dose of H4198, and 2353 fps from the 480 DGX using a max load of H4895 ("max" = a full load slightly compressed with bullets seated to 3.44" for the 350 and 3.58" for the 480.) AND, all that from a rifle identical to yours - a Ruger No.1H.
You were living large on safari with a Ruger No. 1 .458 WM and a .450 NE. Congratulations on your immediate success. Buy a donkey for the excellent additions to the thread. Much terminal ballistic info there. Kindly pick your Sir Name for a Knight's chair at the Square Table. Something unique, Joe and John are taken by other worthy ones.
About your comments on the other site, the reincarnation here could have some fun with the previous bumblings at the anchor baby site, no end to the nonsense there. Politics, religion, and the .458 Winchester Magnum can always be counted on to stir up a heathen Lottite.
Bob,, Excellent info and have always enjoyed your page. I was lucky enough to run into a significant quantity of TSXs in 458 cal of various weights so your data is appreciated. JRN
RIP, Good to hear from you and the work on the mission. Here are some additional terminal photos.
Black wildebeest - right at 100yds
Springbok - 80 yds. Granted a springbok is no match for the 458. Nonetheless, I don't like tracking animals (and neither do the PHs!).
I wish I had a photo of the one cape buffalo cow - at impact (18yds) from the 450 nitro (OG 458 - 480 gr) she flipped upside down with all four feet in the air. More decisive than my previous buffalo with a 375.
My sons used 375s. A great caliber, just not as great as the 458!
Sir Ron, as always many thanks for the history lessons and peek into your machine/gun shop, yes, all good here on the cattle, getting rid of a ginat split trunk red oak cattle killer tree has saved me no telling what, i dont have cattle insurance and certainly dont fill out whining and begging subsidy forms from uncle sugar, farming for fun a man has really got to keep a hard eye on his wares ; ]
All good and bearing down hard on Africa with the 458 WM+ and 404gr Hammers, it will do all the work save for one animal this year, near, or out to 350 yards.
Sir Tony, I thought it was funny too, will buy two donkeys, one for you and one for me. Sir Jerry alluded to some sweaty, good work on his cattle ranch, disaster averted.
My problem for the last two months was a disaster not averted, resulting in a blue ball of foot. The scene of my disaster:
The usually dry ditch had green algae slime in it and I did not look before I stepped into it. Ended up on my back with right foot kicking just wrong into point of a landscaping block overhanging other side of ditch:
I vividly remember feeling a couple of snap-crackles in my foot. I jumped up and looked to see if anyone had seen my vaudeville-worth slapstick gag, then finished mowing, walking on my heel, pretending like nothing happened.
I am feeling fit to shoot as soon as the heat lets up. Still mostly miserable here. I need to rock and roll on that right foot.
jrnicho, Buy a donkey ! More great stuff, proof that the 350-gr TSX at modest velocity is a killer-diller. Sir Joe has pointed me to some excellent results in Oz with the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN also. For one, a charge of 77 gr of H4895 (IIRC), which is a Woodleigh standard SAAMI-ish load giving 2350 fps MV, killed porcine, bovine, canine, and equine feral animals with aplomb. On a "broomie" horse it entered at point of shoulder and quartered back to offside hide across the body. One shot DRT and beautiful recovered bullet, etc.
Limping around here has allowed me to consider trying H4198 with the 404gr Hammer also, along with AA-2015BR suggested by Sir Jerry and highly recommended by Sir Dennis. H4198 is THE powder for the 350-gr TSX. Maybe the reduced bearing and drag of the PDR bands will allow it to be speedy with the 404gr Shock Hammer too.
That hoof looks a heck of a stone bruise. Definitely time to walk softly and carry a big stick. Another box of 400/404 Shock Hammers in the Palmolive Ultra Strength cleansing bath. The 350 TSX certainly seems like it would be a stone cold killer of anything in North America. If I recall correctly it penetrated 18" in the MIB test lab. I am pretty much sold on the 404 Shock Hammer for my one and done, do-it-all .458 bullet in bolt actions. Though, I do intend to load some of the 350 grain North Fork Cup Point Expanding Solids, the 380 grain Leigh Copper Flat, and the on back order since February CEB 325 grain Safari Solids.
Sir Ron, yes, cow killer tree on ground, split and piled to dry along with 4 hickory and two water oak, all GTG, will be looking forward to results on 2015BR and 404 Hammers, glad to see you're healing up, i have kind of a wide hoof, Thorogood composite toe pull on leather boots are great for working, water and shock proof, i never feel the safety toe covering, great boots made in the USA and priced right, iirc i got out of Gellco up in Ft Smith for less than 150 bucks.
Time is drawing near for Africa, i'll get little Wife to snap a couple pics of the 'Big Sticks' i'll be using on this Safari and send em to you for posting if you wish.
Sir Ron, Glad your doing better, as we all realize it could have been worse, and was Bad enough! Not Fun at All! Yeah too Hot for Shooting at the moment. Dealt with a Bum Heal for a Month in a Half, and Had to crawl to the private room one evening, (not fun), Achilles Tendinitis! Who Knew. Headin Down to the Feed Mill to Buy a Donkey for all US Old Timers! LOL!!!
Sir Jerry, Glad you got that Widow Maker Down, Looks like she'll burn pretty good! The African Adventure is getting Closer for you. Keep your Powder Dry!
In today's blog, you and Jerry get some honors. A blog dedicated to the grand .458 WM, and yes, H4198 (not IMR), gets quite a bit of recognition. I got my best velocity for the 400-X using it. No data given though on amount. It was "borrowed" and extrapolated!
Sorry for you about the foot! Yeah - getting "older" has it's adventures that aren't exactly memorable!
That hoof looks a heck of a stone bruise. The 350 TSX certainly seems like it would be a stone cold killer of anything in North America. If I recall correctly it penetrated 18" in the MIB test lab. I am pretty much sold on the 404 Shock Hammer for my one and done, do-it-all .458 bullet in bolt actions. Though, I do intend to load some of the 350 grain North Fork Cup Point Expanding Solids, the 380 grain Leigh Copper Flat, and the on back order since February CEB 325 grain Safari Solids.
Sir Ron, yes, cow killer tree on ground, split and piled to dry along with 4 hickory and two water oak, all GTG, will be looking forward to results on 2015BR and 404 Hammers, glad to see you're healing up, i have kind of a wide hoof, Thorogood composite toe pull on leather boots are great for working, water and shock proof, i never feel the safety toe covering, great boots made in the USA and priced right, iirc i got out of Gellco up in Ft Smith for less than 150 bucks.
Time is drawing near for Africa, i'll get little Wife to snap a couple pics of the 'Big Sticks' i'll be using on this Safari and send em to you for posting if you wish.
That is a heck of a pile of firewood. I think a hickory-stocked .458 WM/WM+ would be some great firewood. Will look for those Thorogood boots, have a Red Wing Pecos with steel toe, custom stretched for my own funny feet, and some Red Wing Engineer boots with buckles, yeehah ! Might have to get the right boots stretched again for my now funnier right foot.
Sir Jerry practices his quick draw safari manual of arms below:
In today's blog, you and Jerry get some honors. A blog dedicated to the grand .458 WM, and yes, H4198 (not IMR), gets quite a bit of recognition. I got my best velocity for the 400-X using it. No data given though on amount. It was "borrowed" and extrapolated!
Sorry for you about the foot! Yeah - getting "older" has it's adventures that aren't exactly memorable!
Thanks for the blog, last two weeks are great ones, to which I can only add AMEN.
Today is the anniversary of some Lab Radar data from 07-03-2021, shot with the factory barrel, 24", 1:14" twist, 0.459"-grooved, .450"-bored, 1980 vintage Ruger No. 1. That is a .458 WM+ rifle for sure:
I got excited when I saw the 500-gr TBSS 3-shot landed close to the 450-gr TSX 5-shot at 100 yards, looking through the 9X setting of the Nikon scope. I blew it on the last two shots with the TBSS. They were the last two shots of 25 shots of .458 WM+ handloads and 6 shots of factory .458 WM as a control that day, shot in less than an hour, while the young man who owned the Lab Radar stood by. Smart kid, a CAD/CAM machinist, son of my gunsmith, and I knew he had better things to do. That is my story and I am sticking to it. The Ruger No. 1 shoots better than I do, truth be told.
Yes, the Hornady .458 WM 500-gr DGS factory load was "right-on" by Lab Radar: 2140.3 fps MV and 1866.7 fps at 100 yards.
More anniversary review: With same center-of-target hold at 100 yards and no scope setting changes the Point-Of-Impact elevation differences of the loads are noted below:
.458 WM 500-gr DGS at 2140 fps: POI = + 9.5" (slow bullet, greater barrel time, greater muzzle elevation at barrel exit) .458 WM+ 480-gr DGX-Bonded at 2405 fps: POI = -4.5" (lower impact by 14") (83.0 gr. AA-2460 handload, 3.560" COL) .458 WM+ 450-gr TSX at 2459 fps: POI = -3" .458 WM+ 500-gr TBSS at 2408 fps: POI = - 4" approximately.
You bet Sir Tony, just yesterday i heard of a client getting himself killed and a PH badly wounded trailing up a bad hit Cape Buffalo, i have no details other than that, we as hunters HAVE a damn job to do for so many reasons, we must practice relentlessly and place killing shots on animals, we owe it to the animal, PH, trackers, our wives if they're along, and lastly to ourselves, drawing blood and not finding the animal will be another good kick in the balls when they pay the trophy fees even of no one is injured or killed, so yes Sir, trigger time aplenty and always pray for no component failures ; ]
Widow maker/Cow Killer will indeed put forth much heat for the Winter of '23.
Thanks for the honors Sir Bob, i'll check that page out when i get caught up a bit.
LOL! Sir Ron, Thanks for posting the pics Sir, i had to roll up a sleeve and tuck my damn shirt tail in to show my favorite way of carrying rifle, ammo on belt along with Bagwell Damascus Skinner out back, with bino over left hip, great setup for right handed shooters, a simple pull around with left hand can let me stand and glass with the rifles muzzles always pointing down, still not brave enough to rest one on top of my boot, also wont glass with rifle on shoulder top holding my muzzle swinging and turning all around with face in bino, just a safety deal for me.
Kneeling and glassing is all together different, butt in dirt and gaze away, i tell you these 10.5-11 pound rifles handle and point like fine bird guns, i suppose if one were glassing and something exploded out of the bush nearby you could certainly get it into battery PDQ holding safely down by stock wrist.
Those boots in the corner are black elephant, a favorite pair of moccasins i love to early bow, black powder and Sharps rifle hunt in before it gets to cold, the other pair are the only boots no one would wear if they weren't so comfortable, i mean, come on, yellow boots with knots all over! little Woman wears a size 7 LOL!
No offense to the Missus, didn't think about implying big feet on the petite lady. What a swell cook she is too. I see the moccasin boots are quiet for stalking. No sin in that, pun intended.
Serious now, cape buffalo killed a client and beat up the PH ? More details or a link, please ?
No offense taken Sir Ron i knew you were joking around, but you bet, 5'8" 122lb woman that runs like a doe deer and cooks like Aunt Jemima, the reason it's a daily struggle for me not to weigh 900 damn lbs, sadly, yes of the client/PH, i have no details at the moment, did reach to all outfitters that have booked my hunts, all their guys are good, bad deal man.
Just went and looked up in the African Forum, seems RinB has heard something too.
How's everyone doing ? Seems y'all have been busy killin ruminates, trees, almost feet and targets 😆💪 Good job. I wonder how 1/4" thick hickory boards , laminated together would work for a rifle stock ? Should be strong enough ! I can say that the .458 , 350 gr TSX and X bullets @ 2550 fps mv, slaughter big brown bear in a most satisfying way. I'm sure faster would be if anything even more instantaneous. As long as it didn't hinder follow up shots in rapid order. Just that there are times when more than 1 furry problem is inbound. Practice practice practice.
Sir Ron, 1 bad fall on March 30 2020 changed my life forever with blowing 5 tendons off my left rotator cuff. I think the most dangerous thing a person can do is fall down. Historically I've fell down a Lot. Stiff soled boots are great things . I wear Viberg 105 T when falling timber , arborist work and logging. Occasionally, if it's dry, I will wear my White Smoke Jumpers. Due to some knee injuries I need to find a low heel , stiff soled boot. Not as stiff or warm as my Koflack Infernos. The search is on. Hobbling around on 1 + 1/2 knee gets old and tiring fast. I'm still building our home. This summers job is a garage addition to the house. Once I can get the engine on my sawmill to start and run. Last I checked, 7/16" osb was $50.00 a sheet. I can make a bunch of 1"×8" boards for 50 bucks. So sheet goods will get passed over for this build. Winter is coming. We are in Red Flag Warnings here and mostly have been for a week.
Sir Ron, yes, cow killer tree on ground, split and piled to dry along with 4 hickory and two water oak, all GTG, will be looking forward to results on 2015BR and 404 Hammers, glad to see you're healing up, i have kind of a wide hoof, Thorogood composite toe pull on leather boots are great for working, water and shock proof, i never feel the safety toe covering, great boots made in the USA and priced right, iirc i got out of Gellco up in Ft Smith for less than 150 bucks.
Time is drawing near for Africa, i'll get little Wife to snap a couple pics of the 'Big Sticks' i'll be using on this Safari and send em to you for posting if you wish.
That is a heck of a pile of firewood. I think a hickory-stocked .458 WM/WM+ would be some great firewood. Will look for those Thorogood boots, have a Red Wing Pecos with steel toe, custom stretched for my own funny feet, and some Red Wing Engineer boots with buckles, yeehah ! Might have to get the right boots stretched again for my now funnier right foot.
Sir Jerry practices his quick draw safari manual of arms below:
Sir Scotty, You got that right. Sir Jerry's knuckles do not drag the ground, but if the buffalo does not drop dead with first shot on a close charge, Sir Jerry will bulldog it with bare hands.
All good here CTF, hope same for you and yours, was on woodpile again at dawn this morning, about to get her wrapped up for drying all year long, need to mow the yard, have soaker hoses laid in the garden, with all of it being planted, we know the sun will shine, i'll put the water to it hard and heavy, poor Wife will finally have enough of it and canning it all, i'll yank the plants and throw over the fence for the cattle to pilfer through, then pulverize with batwing cutter this Winter.
Pro Tip: for any of you men that have a Wife that gardens, soaker hoses are your friends, lay the water to it, overwhelm her with vegetables, you'll buy yourself an extra month of freedom leading into October hunting season! LOL.
Sir Ron, yes, cow killer tree on ground, split and piled to dry along with 4 hickory and two water oak, all GTG, will be looking forward to results on 2015BR and 404 Hammers, glad to see you're healing up, i have kind of a wide hoof, Thorogood composite toe pull on leather boots are great for working, water and shock proof, i never feel the safety toe covering, great boots made in the USA and priced right, iirc i got out of Gellco up in Ft Smith for less than 150 bucks.
Time is drawing near for Africa, i'll get little Wife to snap a couple pics of the 'Big Sticks' i'll be using on this Safari and send em to you for posting if you wish.
That is a heck of a pile of firewood. I think a hickory-stocked .458 WM/WM+ would be some great firewood. Will look for those Thorogood boots, have a Red Wing Pecos with steel toe, custom stretched for my own funny feet, and some Red Wing Engineer boots with buckles, yeehah ! Might have to get the right boots stretched again for my now funnier right foot.
Sir Jerry practices his quick draw safari manual of arms below:
That big galoot makes that 500 look small
LOL Big B, i failed to mention Holland & Holland built those rifles on the 22 Hornet action, it has 13 inch barrels, i'm 3'1" and 125 pounds, perfect symmetry, no?
Sir Scotty, You got that right. Sir Jerry's knuckles do not drag the ground, but if the buffalo does not drop dead with first shot on a close charge, Sir Jerry will bulldog it with bare hands.
I'll be tripping someone and trying to run my old butt up a tree Sir Ron ; ]
How's everyone doing ? Seems y'all have been busy killin ruminates, trees, almost feet and targets 😆💪 Good job. I wonder how 1/4" thick hickory boards , laminated together would work for a rifle stock ? Should be strong enough ! I can say that the .458 , 350 gr TSX and X bullets @ 2550 fps mv, slaughter big brown bear in a most satisfying way. I'm sure faster would be if anything even more instantaneous. As long as it didn't hinder follow up shots in rapid order. Just that there are times when more than 1 furry problem is inbound. Practice practice practice.
Sir Ron, 1 bad fall on March 30 2020 changed my life forever with blowing 5 tendons off my left rotator cuff. I think the most dangerous thing a person can do is fall down. Historically I've fell down a Lot. Stiff soled boots are great things . I wear Viberg 105 T when falling timber , arborist work and logging. Occasionally, if it's dry, I will wear my White Smoke Jumpers. Due to some knee injuries I need to find a low heel , stiff soled boot. Not as stiff or warm as my Koflack Infernos. The search is on. Hobbling around on 1 + 1/2 knee gets old and tiring fast. I'm still building our home. This summers job is a garage addition to the house. Once I can get the engine on my sawmill to start and run. Last I checked, 7/16" osb was $50.00 a sheet. I can make a bunch of 1"×8" boards for 50 bucks. So sheet goods will get passed over for this build. Winter is coming. We are in Red Flag Warnings here and mostly have been for a week.
Sir Spruce, Good to see you can take a break now and then to chip in here. I checked the Viberg 105T, White's Smoke Jumper, and Koflack Inferno boots: Too much boot for my current needs. I stopped by the local Redwing shop and no dice locally on the Thorogood boot Sir Jerry mentioned. If the boot fits, I will wear it, nice to be able to try some on. Besides the two Redwings I have two sets of Herman Survivors with steel toe, and my steel-toed tactical boot for lawn work. The pull-on Herman is a waterproof cowboy style with black rubber "street-tread" oil-proof sole, lighter than the redwing, favored for tree climbing. When I do the Valdez to Fairbanks hike will probably go in Kangaroo-leather upland boots, like I had from Browning and Cabela's brand most recently, and try not to fall down and kick a boulder. I have a new phobia of New Balance sneakers.
Sir Ron, yes, cow killer tree on ground, split and piled to dry along with 4 hickory and two water oak, all GTG, will be looking forward to results on 2015BR and 404 Hammers, glad to see you're healing up, i have kind of a wide hoof, Thorogood composite toe pull on leather boots are great for working, water and shock proof, i never feel the safety toe covering, great boots made in the USA and priced right, iirc i got out of Gellco up in Ft Smith for less than 150 bucks.
Time is drawing near for Africa, i'll get little Wife to snap a couple pics of the 'Big Sticks' i'll be using on this Safari and send em to you for posting if you wish.
That is a heck of a pile of firewood. I think a hickory-stocked .458 WM/WM+ would be some great firewood. Will look for those Thorogood boots, have a Red Wing Pecos with steel toe, custom stretched for my own funny feet, and some Red Wing Engineer boots with buckles, yeehah ! Might have to get the right boots stretched again for my now funnier right foot.
Sir Jerry practices his quick draw safari manual of arms below:
That big galoot makes that 500 look small
LOL Big B, i failed to mention Holland & Holland built those rifles on the 22 Hornet action, it has 13 inch barrels, i'm 3'1" and 125 pounds, perfect symmetry, no?
Soaker hoses. Sir Jerry, do you use the black spongy ones that weep all over or do you drill holes in a better-constructed length of hose ? Any tips on soaker hoses appreciated. Need to do some for the planned Victory Garden in the lower 40. Got the black spongy ones buried under lava rock in the front forty flower beds. Saw a DIY drilling holes in a garden hose on LIFE BELOW ZERO or PORT PROTECTION for Alaskan greenhouse farming ... or was that Mike on BETTER CALL SAUL ... I been binge-watching NAT GEO, HISTORY CHANNEL and NETFLIX lately.
And just to keep it related to shooting the .458 WinMag, sort of: My Gunsmith, builder of my .458 WinMags, invited me to go shooting for 4th of July, more fun than fireworks. It was 94 degrees where we were. He fired some of his handloads for .243 WCF over his Magneto Speed and his son's Lab Radar. No statistically significant difference between the two for MV readings. He was using Winchester STABALL powder.
The .458 WinMag was released hot on the heels of the .308 WCF and .243 WCF shorty successes. The coned-up breech on the .458 WinMag made it an immediate shorty success, absolutely able to beat a SAAMI .458 Lott if allowed same COL and MAP limits.
Advantage of Lab Radar is you can fire for groups while chronographing, and also get 100-yard velocities. Magneto Speed is handy but affects POI of loads, and cannot be used for handguns. My Caldwell G2 agreed well with my Oehler P35 (no statistical difference) but must watch for lighting conditions with both. Magneto Speed advantage over all of them might be a lesser susceptibility to errors from foam wad fillers, etc.
I rehabbed my foot in the heat with a Henry Classic H001 lever action, 18" barrel, .22 LR. Zeroed 1/2" high at 25 yards with Federal AutoMatch standard velocity ammo, 40-grainers (1232 fps mean at 5 yards), it is back on zero at 75 yards with a Nikon 1.5-4.5x20mm shotgun scope with Turkey Reticle. Rings big gong at 200 yards with hold on the bottom point of the diamond-plex. Then I drilled the center of a 25-yard paper target at 25 yards with 6" Colt Python. Remington Golden Saber 125-gr, brass-jacketed HP, 1385 fps mean at 5 yards. Excellent, mild recoil load, discontinued because it was too good ? Like the Winchester Black Talon stuff ? Democraps claimed coroners would open up the dead and find the Black Talons still spinning inside the corpse. Glad I bought the Golden Sabers by the case when I could.
Well, it was 99*F here yesterday and heat index is hitting 111*F here today. My foot is ready for the .458 WinMag when we get a little cooler. But the creek I was planning to get water from for the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo tests is bone dry.
Hopefully once the creek rises, you will be able to run the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo test on the 404 Hammer, high and low speed. If time permitting, perhaps the 380 grain Lehigh copper flat point. That Lehigh may have some potential for respectable velocity. Using the straight edge method it appears the .458 diameter begins at the first band. It would appear that the wide meplat would enhance significant tissue relocation at 2000 fps and above impacts.
Soaker hoses. Sir Jerry, do you use the black spongy ones that weep all over or do you drill holes in a better-constructed length of hose ? Any tips on soaker hoses appreciated. Need to do some for the planned Victory Garden in the lower 40. Got the black spongy ones buried under lava rock in the front forty flower beds. Saw a DIY drilling holes in a garden hose on LIFE BELOW ZERO or PORT PROTECTION for Alaskan greenhouse farming ... or was that Mike on BETTER CALL SAUL ... I been binge-watching NAT GEO, HISTORY CHANNEL and NETFLIX lately.
Yes Sir Ron, black spongy, 5/8ths diameter, cut to length, also get 5/8ths plastic nipples at parts store for fixing leaks, cut leak, install nipple, couple zip ties and back in business, if burying like you say, good lifetime water hose with holes punched in would definitely be more durable and long lasting.
Sir Larry, Yep, I want to do that Lehigh 380-gr copper FN, compare it to the 404-gr Shock hammer for penetration. Will make it simple and use same powder charge for both, pending AA-2015BR vs. H4198 Extreme comparison to what we already know about AA-2230 and AA-2460s. Finally rained yesterday, 60% chance today, 50% chance tomorrow, expected to be sunny and high in upper 80s Sunday. Happy days may be here again Sunday.
Sir Jerry, I Learn all sorts of things on this thread. Googled and Youtubed soaker hoses and drip irrigation tubing OTC, and DIY 1/16" drill through regular garden hose. For the reminder on attention to irrigation systems, buy a donkey.
First time in Botswana 2001, I was on a budget hunt that cost me $20,000 total after cheap taxidermy by a local VIP buddy. Second time in Tanzania 2010 the cost was much higher: I paid by sharing a tent with Walter and taxidermy out of Houston, TX. I would have hated to have paid for another cape buffalo mount. To get the skulls and hides home for personal arts and crafts would be my future plans.
Nothing attracts game like a cash cow, but I will have come into an inheritance to spend before I become a cash cow.
First two cape buffalo I took with humerus-heart-lung shots. They reacted identically to identical shot placement, first one with a .416 Rigby, second one with a .500 Mbogo, my pet wildcat. They bucked like a rodeo bull and ran about 50 yards away and died. All I can say now is I should've had a Four Five Eight. I expect the 404-gr Shock Hammer at ~2500 fps MV will work wonders for one-shot kills. Pay the insurance with either another one of those or your 500-gr TBSS at ~2300 fps from the magazine of your .458 WM+.
But wait, I am not done, both bullets were recovered, along with a heart that had one usual exit hole and another entrance&exit gash:
Those are the only photos of heart I have, and which side of heart that vertical gash was on, I am not sure, but I do not recall any other holes. Gerard Schultz was shocked by the pinched nose (me too) and redesigned the bullet after that.
Maybe not the bullet's fault. Maybe it was still yawing a bit at 5 yards and tilted on entry, bending and pinching nose of bullet. Twist was 1:10", meaningless after the bullet enters game. An FN solid would have had a better chance of staying on course before going to sleep in the ground on the other side of the buffalo, from whatever angle.
Sir Ron, I look forward to your test results. I am intrigued by the potential of the 380 Lehigh FP. Not because I have a "need" for a solid in the bolt guns. But, they certainly work within their trajectory and velocity comfort zones. 45-70 and bigger bore handguns as examples. Given bullet integrity and more velocity it would seem they would work better yet at tissue relocation.
Those 350 grain NF Expanding CPS are very impressive to me as to their performance in Michael's testing and others. Hopefully these will become a more common in-stock item.
Yesterday, I hit the .375 bullet jackpot in Eagle River. Finally a decent supply of the Barnes 270 grain LRX bullets. At 2650-2700 fps this is my new all-around N.A. 3/8" bullet. Pretty much a larger diameter 338 Winchester to 300 yards.
Not sure of what the length or bc would be, but a Tipped version of the .458 400 grain TSX might be interesting. I have not had enough interest to purchase the Buffalo Bore 400 TSX loads to purchase and pull a bullet to compare to the 404 Shock Hammer. Buffalo Bore advertises a 2250 fps muzzle velocity. Basically the same from his 18 & 22" rifles. I assume 2300 would be feasible from a 24" barrel, individual barrel dependent. I do not recall chronograph results from anyone. Tim does state he intentionally does not load this bullet to maximum with the powder that he is using. I suspect the TSX is less bc than the 404 Shock Hammer. The 404 Hammer seems a very easy 2350 fps from a 24" barrel. Not sure that I will develop enough curiosity to purchase the Buffalo Bores to explore.
My shots were offhand on both buffalo, 50 yards and 75 yards. We crawled a little each time then stood up and shot.
Day two in Tanzania I was allowed a second buffalo, but PH was a smoker needing a nicotine fix frequently. He knew the patterns the buffalo followed, and after we spooked a bachelor pod of dagga boys he knew where they would run. He wanted to get it done so he could smoke. He set up a tripod of spindly switches from tree limbs, top wrapped with innertube rubber band, on the side of a termite mound, told me they would come running through a clearing about 150 yards away, and if one paused I should take a shot. DOH ! Yup, yup, yup. One of them did stop. The tripod leaned and collapsed off the sidehill of the termite mound as I shot, counting coup on the fanny of the buffalo, with the 500 Mbogo. Searched high and low and found one drop of blood. But we had fun with repeated encounters for hours looking for a wounded buffalo. None was even limping. Moral of the story: PH suggestions are not always cool, even if he is smoking Cools. Sometimes he just wants to get it over with so he can smoke while taking you on a sightseeing tour.
I am intrigued by the potential of the 380 Lehigh FP. Not because I have a "need" for a solid in the bolt guns. But, they certainly work within their trajectory and velocity comfort zones. 45-70 and bigger bore handguns as examples. Given bullet integrity and more velocity it would seem they would work better yet at tissue relocation.
Yes, good in .45-70, better in .458 WM. Will be interesting to see how that WFN with sharp edges cuts through the IWBB. I also now have some 400-gr CEB brass FN "LEVER+SOLID" solids to compare at .458 WM velocities, thanks to Sir Jerry. Doc M never did them justice with high enough velocity at MIB, in his wetpack. They all need to go at least 2400 fps for full effect.
Those 350 grain NF Expanding CPS are very impressive to me as to their performance in Michael's testing and others. Hopefully these will become a more common in-stock item.
Those were done well at MIB and proven in the field too.
Yesterday, I hit the .375 bullet jackpot in Eagle River. Finally a decent supply of the Barnes 270 grain LRX bullets. At 2650-2700 fps this is my new all-around N.A. 3/8" bullet. Pretty much a larger diameter 338 Winchester to 300 yards.
Is Boondock Sporting Goods still alive and well in Eagle River ?
Not sure of what the length or bc would be, but a Tipped version of the .458 400 grain TSX might be interesting.
If only Hornady would take the opportunity to offer a .458-cal/ 400-gr GMX or CX ...
I have not had enough interest to purchase the Buffalo Bore 400 TSX loads to purchase and pull a bullet to compare to the 404 Shock Hammer. Buffalo Bore advertises a 2250 fps muzzle velocity. Basically the same from his 18 & 22" rifles.
Amazing but true, IIRC: 2247 fps in his 22" factory M70 barrel, 2250 fps in his 18" custom M98 barrel !
I assume 2300 would be feasible from a 24" barrel, individual barrel dependent. I do not recall chronograph results from anyone. Tim does state he intentionally does not load this bullet to maximum with the powder that he is using.
Buffalo Bore Factory load for .458 WM with 400-gr TSX, COL = 3.310", BOL = 1.390". My 24" Ruger No. 1 factory barrel at 87*F : 2320 fps at 5 yards, corrected for BC = 0.324 gives MV = 2333 for 5-shot mean. My 25" Shilen barrel at 64*F: 2336 fps at 5 yards, corrected for BC =0.324 gives MV = 2350 fps for 5-shot mean.
I suspect the TSX is less bc than the 404 Shock Hammer. The 404 Hammer seems a very easy 2350 fps from a 24" barrel. Not sure that I will develop enough curiosity to purchase the Buffalo Bores to explore.
404-gr Shock Hammer BC = .419 400-gr TSX BC = .324 Buffalo Bore is excellent factory ammo with the 400-gr TSX. I shot sub-MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards when zeroing that Shilen barrel for last year's deer season. Got a nice buck with it. BUT, if you have the 404-gr Shock Hammer to handload, you have no need for the 400-gr TSX from Tim Sundle's corner of the market.
A little drive in the bakkie for a smoke and then back onto the sightseeing trail:
We walked about for about 4 hours. Great sightseeing. Could have easily shot another bull if I had not counted coup on the buffalo butt earlier that day. Sure glad I did not have to pay for the taxidermy of a buffalo butt, though it would have made an interesting keepsake for dryfire practice of Portuguese Heart Shots.
Yes, good in .45-70, better in .458 WM. Will be interesting to see how that WFN with sharp edges cuts through the IWBB. I also now have some 400-gr CEB brass FN "LEVER+SOLID" solids to compare at .458 WM velocities, thanks to Sir Jerry. Doc M never did them justice with high enough velocity at MIB, in his wetpack. They all need to go at least 2400 fps for full effect.
I have the 325 grain Lever & Bolt Gun versions still on back order.
Is Boondock Sporting Goods still alive and well in Eagle River ?
Yep still open and doing business, one of my most favorite places. One of the few that large mediums to big bores still have a following.
If only Hornady would take the opportunity to offer a 400-gr GMX or CX ...
I would be in, for trying a GMX / CX 380-400 grain
Amazing but true, IIRC: 2247 fps in his 22" factory M70 barrel, 2250 fps in his 18" custom M98 barrel !
I assume 2300 would be feasible from a 24" barrel, individual barrel dependent. I do not recall chronograph results from anyone. Tim does state he intentionally does not load this bullet to maximum with the powder that he is using.
Buffalo Bore Factory load for .458 WM with 400-gr TSX, COL = 3.310", BOL = 1.390". My 24" Ruger No. 1 factory barrel at 87*F : 2320 fps at 5 yards, corrected for BC = 0.324 gives MV = 2333 for 5-shot mean. My 25" Shilen barrel at 64*F: 2336 fps at 5 yards, corrected for BC =0.324 gives MV = 2350 fps for 5-shot mean.
404-gr Shock Hammer BC = .419 400-gr TSX BC = .324 Buffalo Bore is excellent factory ammo with the 400-gr TSX. I shot sub-MOA for 3 shots at 100 yards when zeroing that Shilen barrel for last year's deer season. Got a nice buck with it. BUT, if you have the 404-gr Shock Hammer to handload, you have no need for the 400-gr TSX from Tim Sundle's corner of the market.
Definitely a good bullet and load. But, I am heavily vested in 404 Hammer. No regrets and don't foresee any with this Hammer. I personally think it is the best thing going in the 400 grain class for my purposes.
If the petals on the 404 Hammer reliably shear at 1800 fps: Figuring a conservative bc of .400. This would make it a a moose-masher out past 250 yards with a starting speed of 2350 fps. 2300 fps in a 22" standard magazine 458 Winchester should get me to my maximum visual distance of 230 yards.
Good stuff Sir Ron, you've got a handle on the watering and Buffalo anatomy, here's hoping for rain so we can see the effects on the iron buffalo, i'm going to slam a 480gr DGX into some 5 gal water buckets, will see how it holds up at 2148 fps from the old Holland.
The two 500 gr DGX bullets I used on my buffalo a couple years ago performed perfectly The first through the heart and the second through the neck. Both were under the far side hide , perfectly mushroomed and weighed over 400 gas
The two 500 gr DGX bullets I used on my buffalo a couple years ago performed perfectly The first through the heart and the second through the neck. Both were under the far side hide , perfectly mushroomed and weighed over 400 gas
Good stuff, Thanks for that info Phil, late yesterday evening before dark i let loose with a 480gr DGX at 2148 fps from the old double, i had:
3lb metal Kirkwood coffee can 1 gallon bleach jug 1 gallon apple cider vinegar jug 2 five gallon hydraulic oil buckets with lids 1 five gallon paint bucket with lid
All containers were filled with water and stacked lengthways butt to butt, shot from 15 yards, bullet found in the last 5 gal paint bucket, that is a massive level of penetration for a soft point bullet, it expanded shaped like a rectangular hammer head, haven't weighed it yet, but it looks great.
You bet Sir Tony, sending pics to beretzs right now, if he doesnt post em i'll send em to Sir Ron to see if he'll post if anyone wants to see them, the aftermath explosion of debris surprised the chit out of me, these 480 DGX softs will only be used on the one specific animal this trip after the solids are employed, the mighty 458 WM+ with 404 Hammers and 500gr TBSS [if needed] will be used if i can find a big Cape Buff.
Thanks for the report. I have read positive reports regarding the Bonded DGX bullets. Pictures of recovered bullets have shown that they hang together with a substantial frontal area.
I have a box of the 500 grain Bonded DGX that came with a 458 Winchester. This box advertises 2140 fps. I don't know if Phil's were factory or hand-loads. But, they obviously preformed well on the big-black-beast with attitude.
Another aftermath, my lot of AA-2015BR bites the dust:
Range rules changed, I got there an hour before closing and just decided to dig a ditch in the berm, just shot them through the Caldwell G2 at a spot between two target stands. First bullet crater in the dirt became the aiming point. Gotterdun in about 45 minutes with 2-minute cooldowns in AC of truck between 3-shot rapid fire bursts. H4198: 70, 71 and 72 grains H322: 76, 77 and 78 grains AA-2015BR: 76, 77 and 78 grains.
None of those loads showed any funny business for pressure signs. Maybe I can take a shovel to the range and recover some Shock Hammer stubs ... when the range master ain't lookin'.
Now I have a thought about using Norma brass, which has about 4.5-gr H2O capacity greater than the W-W Super and Hornady brass.
With Norma brass, in 25" Shilen barrel, 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.380" COL: 80.0-gr AA-2230 >>> 2488 fps MV 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.480" COL: 80.0-gr AA-2230 >>> 2425 fps MV So, 63 fps MV was lost by not increasing the powder charge with increasing COL to 3.480".
Next, again in Norma brass: 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.480" COL: 84.0-gr AA-2230 >>> 2545 fps MV
So, 120 fps MV was gained by adding 4 grains of AA-2230 at constant COL of 3.480". Using the faster powders might do more than AA-2230 ball, with minimal compression of the extruded "Extreme" powders in the Norma brass.
?? grains of H4198 or ?? grains of H322 in Norma brass at 3.480" COL might crack 2600 fps. AA-2015BR is too bulky, fine-grained extruded though it is. 74 grains of H4198 and 80 grains of H322 in Norma brass at 3.480" COL to start, and work upward, with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. They are slick bullets, need more steam to build some pressure.
87 grains of H4895 got the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN over 2600 fps with heavy compression, not ideal if it can be done with a lesser amount of a faster powder. And the 404-gr SH is too long in the boat tail for shallow seating. 3.480" COL or a little shorter, maybe 3.450" is ideal, for seating depths of 0.460" to 0.490" respectively. This allows good neck tension and bullet alignment, and the hammer PDR bands can be easily crimped in the trough in that range, with 2.500" brass. Seat anywhere and use a Lee factory Crimp.
I do recall that I had a primer fall out of the Norma brass with 86 grains of AA-2230 and the 450-grain TSX, using new, unfired brass. If I keep practicing at it, I'll get those primer pockets work hardened on the Norma brass, and the necks annealed.
Many Thanks for posting the pics Sir Ron, notice the bottom of that metal coffee can out front? it has no hole, the force of the bullet going in the top blew the bottom out of it as well as split the can down the middle, the 5 gal buckets were spun nearly 180 degrees, i had the filler caps at 12 o'clock, the bullet strike lined up perfect with shooting into a the smaller coffee can lid from the prone position, whole lotta crazy voodoo going on with that level of pressure LOL, i have no doubts about using those 480gr DGX's on any animal one would employ a soft nosed bullet on, plenty tough.
I had asked Wife to grab a set of headphones and come watch, she was at the backyard gate, when i retrieved the bullet to lay on rifle for a pic she pulled her 9mm round out that she had in her pocket, "here, put my flower you made me in the picture too!" aint i a romantic devil? ; ]
FWIW and off topic, no one i know [even factory] loads the 125gr Barnes hp's in 9mm, 6gr of Power Pistol easily fits for any col one needs for proper function, bullet leaves her P365's at 1100 fps, really easy for her to shoot, i shot through three 3lb Kirkland coffee cans lengthways with that load last week, had three one gallon olive oil jugs huddled around back of the last can, that little buzzsaw ate through three cans and took a bite out of one of the olive oil jugs then fell back into the third can, mighty fine SD carry load imho.
Damn! i had high hopes for the 2015/404 Hammer combo, another thing about being experiential men, we will find something else [powder] that will work very well, Thanks for posting the results Sir Ron.
quote=gunner500: Many Thanks for posting the pics Sir Ron, notice the bottom of that metal coffee can out front? it has no hole, the force of the bullet going in the top blew the bottom out of it as well as split the can down the middle, the 5 gal buckets were spun nearly 180 degrees, i had the filler caps at 12 o'clock, the bullet strike lined up perfect with shooting into a the smaller coffee can lid from the prone position, whole lotta crazy voodoo going on with that level of pressure LOL, i have no doubts about using those 480gr DGX's on any animal one would employ a soft nosed bullet on, plenty tough.
FINALLY HORNADY HAS MADE A GOOD DGR BULLET, bless their hearts.
I had asked Wife to grab a set of headphones and come watch, she was at the backyard gate, when i retrieved the bullet to lay on rifle for a pic she pulled her 9mm round out that she had in her pocket, "here, put my flower you made me in the picture too!" aint i a romantic devil? ; ]
Ah, that is so sweet !
FWIW and off topic, no one i know [even factory] loads the 125gr Barnes hp's in 9mm, 6gr of Power Pistol easily fits for any col one needs for proper function, bullet leaves her P365's at 1100 fps, really easy for her to shoot, i shot through three 3lb Kirkland coffee cans lengthways with that load last week, had three one gallon olive oil jugs huddled around back of the last can, that little buzzsaw ate through three cans and took a bite out of one of the olive oil jugs then fell back into the third can, mighty fine SD carry load imho. end quote
Recipe noted. I will load some for Wife's Glock 19, and mine ! Here is her concealed carry permit target. She shot better than all the men, boys and girls there that day, at Bud's Gun Shop & Range. Only one bullet of 20 outside the 5X ring. She got bored and yawned on that one.
And, hey, my Wife was a track star in high school too. I sure liked watching the girls run. Our first date, she was 16 y.o. and I was an 18 y.o. "college boy" (aimless West Point dropout by the spring of 1973) and I followed the girls' track bus to an "away" meet in my 1966 Mustang. I gave her a ride home from the meet, about a 100-mile ride. 8-track tape player Moody Blues, Bread, and America (Horse With No Name) ... did the trick. Told my coach about that at the 50th reunion of our boys' state cross-country championship team of 1971, only 3 of 5 scorers still alive. Coach nearly had a heart attack himself, made me feel like I had done something wrong. If I hadn't dropped out of West Point after they announced they were getting out of Vietnam, I would not have met my Wife. Now we live in even more interesting times, as the Chinese curse goes ...
Here is a 450-gr FN solid copper bullet that can be loaded SAAMI @ +2300 fps, 3.340" COL or wildcatted to .458 WM+ ammo @ +2400 fps, 3.350" COL. Almost any factory .458 WM can thus be a .458 WM+:
Just as the 500-gr TBSS and 450-gr TSX shoot close to same POI, the 450-gr OFN and the 404-gr SH might too. I hear that at 2300 fps the 450-gr FN will pass through elephant with ease, almost as good as a 500-gr TBSS at 2300 fps, but with less recoil.
Those NF are beauties, my fave for big and bad game.
The 450 grain .458 loaded to 2150 fps proved to a one -shot-wonder on ele and several Cape Buff a few years ago on a Problem Animal Control outing in Southern Africa. Frontal brain shot on ele shot through head and on into body - DRT. Same load shot through most buff. Not a Magnum, just the old 1886 45-90.
Cool beans for sure ! What nose shape was on your 450-gr/.458 North Fork solids that sailed through elephant and buffalo with 2150 fps MV from your .45-90 ?
My old Ogived-FN might require 2300 to 2400 fps MV in .458 WinMag.
From Sir Jerry, yesterday's aftermath in OK, not today, OK:
Originally Posted by gunner500
Many Thanks for posting the pics Sir Ron, notice the bottom of that metal coffee can out front? it has no hole, the force of the bullet going in the top blew the bottom out of it as well as split the can down the middle, the 5 gal buckets were spun nearly 180 degrees, i had the filler caps at 12 o'clock, the bullet strike lined up perfect with shooting into a the smaller coffee can lid from the prone position, whole lotta crazy voodoo going on with that level of pressure LOL, i have no doubts about using those 480gr DGX's on any animal one would employ a soft nosed bullet on, plenty tough.
I had asked Wife to grab a set of headphones and come watch, she was at the backyard gate, when i retrieved the bullet to lay on rifle for a pic she pulled her 9mm round out that she had in her pocket, "here, put my flower you made me in the picture too!" aint i a romantic devil? ; ]
FWIW and off topic, no one i know [even factory] loads the 125gr Barnes hp's in 9mm, 6gr of Power Pistol easily fits for any col one needs for proper function, bullet leaves her P365's at 1100 fps, really easy for her to shoot, i shot through three 3lb Kirkland coffee cans lengthways with that load last week, had three one gallon olive oil jugs huddled around back of the last can, that little buzzsaw ate through three cans and took a bite out of one of the olive oil jugs then fell back into the third can, mighty fine SD carry load imho.
Thanks again Sir Ron.
Sir Jerry, Romantic Devil You! lol!!! Nice work, and thanks to R.I.P., for posting the pics. Your ready Good Sir. Stay in Tune and Healthy! Good Luck!
Nearly 5 years ago my resurgence of handloading the .458 WinMag included the North Fork 450-grain "FP Solid" since I had a bunch on hand. I had previously decided that bullet and all the North Fork 450-grainers were most fun in a .450 Dakota at either 2450 fps or 2600 fps. So, when Mike Brady offered his remaining stock of the original OFP solids at a discount when he sold North Fork, I jumped on them.
In Chimera WinCZechster, a Pre-'64 M70 with 24-7/8" CZ barrel, at 58*F:
450-grain NF-OFP in Hornady brass, GM215M primer, 3.480" COL: 76.0 to 81.0 grains of both H4895 and AA-2230 were tried, with MV ranging from 2292 fps to 2411 fps. Most accurate load was 79.0 grains of H4895 >>> 2335 FPS and 0.52 MOA for 3 shots.
I propose to try 77.0 grains of H4895 and COL of 3.340" for a SAAMI compliant load, sure to beat 2300 fps in a 24" barrel. Then work up some .458 WM+ loads.
I have not tried compressed H4895 with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Need too.
Ron, In Africa, they NF bullets were the 450 grain FPS.
In Texas on Water buff, it was 300 grain .411 CPS at 2250 fps. One shot at 45 yards tore up both shoulders and the front part of chest contents(made a bloody mess of the front end of the buff ) and it hit the ground dead - so limp that the head bounced!. That was a tough old beast, so we had to grind it into ground meat , but it was tasty!
All four generations of the FN bullets from North Fork were called "FPS" for "Flat Point Solid," so you gotta help me out here by recalling which of the four you had, please. I like them all !
Through the grapevine, I hear that there are dealers in Canada that may be getting Hammer Bullets. We can only hope they make it to Toronto where Sir Bob can find some.
Also, at .458Win, Sir Phil, some clarification of this is needed:
"[Addressee name deleted] ... if you talk with the professional ballisticians for the ammo companies, the guys with both the knowledge and equipment to measure pressures, you will find out that there is only around 60-80 fps difference in velocity between the Winchester and the Lott when loaded to equal pressures."
Surely Sir Phil misspoke. When the .458 Winchester Magnum is loaded to SAAMI standards with a 500-grain bullet at 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi and the .458 Lott is loaded to SAAMI standards with same 500-grain bullet (and whatever powder) at 3.600" COL and 62,500 PSI, there is only about 50 fps advantage to the .458 Lott, with both in same 24" barrel length.
Sir Phil's "60-80 fps" was not so far off, but his error in saying same pressure was way off.
If the .458 WinMag is allowed same pressure as the .458 Lott, and same COL, it will absolutely beat the .458 Lott.
Even the SAAMI "governed" .458 WM will easily do 2200 fps with 500-grainer in 24" barrel, with less than 60,000 psi, and with less powder burned, and less recoil than the .458 Lott doing the same. Sweet. THROAT THROAT THROAT And no accuracy flies on its sweetness.
In the cause of defending the brotherhood and the fairness inherent in our Knighthood; Phil did not say which direction the 60-80 fps difference in the 458wm and the 458 Lott was...
"...you will find out that there is only around 60-80 fps difference in velocity between the Winchester and the Lott when loaded to equal pressures." Long live the King 458WM and Long live Old Ugly! F01
Add 200 fps across the board for the .458 WM+ and beat the .458 Lott, if both are allowed up to 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi.
Neat trick: Establish loads in WW-Super or Hornady brass for 3.450" COL, then transfer same loads to Norma brass for .458 WinMag at 3.350" COL. Very close to same effective case capacity with both cases, and both loads are still .458 WM+ in both cases, pun intended. The Norma-cased loads will fit in a blocked-box M70 or standard Mauser, etc.
Top .458 WM+ loads with any bullets will be obtained by using the greater-capacity Norma brass and proper COL and proper powder at proper compression for just right pressure. To be continued.
Thank you Sir. I appreciate the comment. Thinking back over the last few years, I have read more of your work than of any other when I look in the “reading for pleasure “ category. Pleasure reading for me must contain both good writing and truth. You have provided both in full measure. No elephants found on the Great Plains again this year but the Whitworth is eager for fall and a Plains game hunt for the pot. Shalom to the Brotherhood. F01
Cranky Rifleman, The FPS bullets were the #5 in your picture. The ones with the many fine line/grooves.
I bought a good supply of the .411 and .458 for my rifles some years ago and since it takes only one shot per critter, I still have some left for both rifles.
I am also having fun with the 350 SS in my .458 DR as they make a very accurate and deadly combo. When the temperature drops below 90 degrees in Texas, I will shoot more and bigger critters.
Thanks for being more specific. Gen-3 FPS it was then. Good to hear that the truncated-cone-FN-copper solids pass through elephant and buffalo with such ease. I think they would all be quite sufficient in a .45-90 at 2150 fps, Gen-1, -2, -3, or -4 of North Fork FPS. They will all track straight and be within a few inches of each other, for where they stop in the toughest test media, when propelled by the mighty .458 Winchester Magnum. Also, that would be a pass through on broadside body or any angle head of any game, except maybe blue whale.
Interesting bit of trivia from Giles & Shuey, page 153: "Winchester High Velocity (WHV) loadings were introduced in this caliber [45-90 WCF] in 1903 in Soft Point only. The Full Metal Patch (FMJ) offering was added in 1905 and such boxes are rare. Interestingly, Great Britain used the M86 with 45-90 WHV rounds to shoot down German observation balloons in WWI."
Those .458-caliber, 300-gr., RN FMJ were somehow more adequate for WWI observation balloons than a 303 British ? Bigger hole must have made them deflate faster. Sort of like why one should use a .458 instead of lesser calibers for hunting.
Regarding penetration of solids, the science of McCourry Institute of Ballistics (MIB) has appeared at multiple sites on the internet. About time it was repeated here. Michael McCourry, aka Doc M of MIB, wrote as follows:
There are 8 Absolute Known Factors for Solid Penetration and are as follows in Order of Importance…..
#1 Meplat Percentage of Caliber Meplats that attain 65% Meplat of Caliber are terminally stable…. Above 70% Meplat bullets remain stable, however depth of penetration begins to decrease with every step up in meplat size. 70% Meplat or larger does increase trauma to, and destruction of tissue. 70% Meplats start to get difficult to feed, even in Winchester M70s…… From 65% Meplat to 68% Meplat is OPTIMUM for Stability, destruction of tissues, and feed and function in most quality rifles……….
#2 Nose Profile There are many and varied Nose Profiles of solids on the market today, from the angled Nose Profiles of CEB and North Fork, to the straight nose profile of the older North Forks and GSC, the Barnes/Hornady Profiles (like a RN cut off at the top) to many more… Not all of these are created equal, and some are better performers than others. In recent tests in comparison between the old North Fork Profiles and the Newer North Fork Profiles I was getting 20% deeper penetration with the Newer North Forks than the older, with the same bullet, just difference in Nose Profile is all…. John at North Fork agrees, and in their work there they were getting more along the lines of 25% deeper penetration. One major thing that I noticed here, the stability at the end of penetration was 100% better. In most all tests here the last 2 inches of penetration of the old style North Forks would be unstable. Now this is and was of no consequence at the very end of penetration. The depth of penetration of these older nose profile bullets was always so deep that it had long accomplished its mission before loss of stability right at the very end. This new NOSE PROFILE of North Forks remains DEAD STRAIGHT to the very last of penetration, and always found NOSE FORWARD……..
#3 Construction & Material Construction of a solid is a major part of its ability to penetrate. To deny this is foolish to say the least. Some of our solids out there, lead core, are very very weak in construction and absolutely do not have the ability to bust through heavy bone and reach their intended targets. I have seen and have in hand failures of these bullets from the field….. A shame as well, as some of these bullets are promoted as Dangerous Game Solids, and some of them flatten out like pancakes when hitting heavy dense material. Some FMJ Have steel inserts, while this solves a problem in one area, it creates problems in other areas…. Brass is harder than Copper… No surprise there, but I have busted elephant heads with both copper and brass, and never had one distort, but, these solids were of a very STRONG NOSE PROFILE as well…….. So you see, combinations of different factors work together to strengthen or weaken other factors….. A good strong Nose Profile, can overcome some material deficiencies and in the case of copper solids this is extremely important.
#4 Nose Projection Nose Projection above the top bands was the last factor discovered. There may be more factors, but currently they remain undiscovered at this point in time…. We found that nose projection above the top of the bands of current CNC monolithic bullets is very important to depth of penetration. Some bullets designed to work through lever actin riflers require a SHORT NOSE PROJECTION in front of the bands so that they can be loaded deep enough to work through the actions of these guns… Nose Projection of these same bullets for bolt guns, single shots, and double rifles are longer, from .600 to .700 in front of the top band. The LONGER NOSE PROJECTION solids will penetrate on average 25% deeper than the shorter nose projection. Now, these bullets already have all the other required factors for stability, nose profile, construction and radius, so it is ONLY DEPTH Of penetration that is effected with properly designed bullets.
#5 Radius Edge of Meplat We found that the radius edge of the meplat made a difference, small, but a difference none the less. A nicely radius edge penetrates about 5% deeper, and has more stability at the end than a sharp edged radius…. No more to go into here, thats it…….
All the Above Factors Deal with Bullet Design……..
#6 Velocity Velocity is a factor, but it also goes hand in hand with Nose Profile and Construction/Material. If we assume that the Meplat is optimum, the nose projection is optimum, and the bullet has a nice radius then velocity becomes a factor in combination with nose profile and construction/materials. Different Nose Profiles react differently with velocity. Some nose profiles at very low velocity cannot maintain stability, but this would be in the extreme, and other factors may come into play with some of this. In essence with some Nose Profiles, added velocity will equate to added depth of penetration, and of course trauma and destruction of tissue. Some nose profiles react better than others, but if properly designed, then all will get some gain from added velocity, UNTIL you reach the point that you get distortion of the meplat by TOO MUCH VELOCITY. Once you begin to distort that meplat, then all sorts of strange things begin to occur. One is depth of penetration will decrease, stability will decrease as well……. Normally you will only get this at extreme velocities at 2700-2800 fps or more, which in our big bore rifles is somewhat extreme………. Lead core bullets will be effected in a serious manner at extreme velocities, followed by copper, and then brass…….. Nose Profile and Construction & Material are very important for Factor #6………
#7 Barrel Twist Rate Barrel twist rate really only becomes a factor when Factor #1 is DEFICIENT……. If the meplat of caliber is undersized, less than 65%, then faster twist rates WILL INCREASE the depth of penetration by increasing the stability of terminal penetration. A 65% Meplat of Caliber can stabilize in slower twist rates of 1:18, or even slower…… I have seen 65% Meplat of Caliber stabilize with ZERO TWIST……. I have seen 50% Meplat of Caliber stability increase with faster twist rates, and have documentation to prove it, several times…… If you are using a properly designed Solid, then twist rate becomes less important, and more important if you are not using a proper designed solid. Fast Twist Rates can also increase stability of even RN Solids of decent design, hardly anything can increase stability of a more pointy RN FMJ…….
#8 Sectional Density Sectional Density will ONLY BE A FACTOR with two bullets that are exactly the same in every other Factor or aspect. Factors #1 and #2 far outweigh Sectional Density in the terminal performance of Solids. We can take a properly designed 458 caliber 325 gr Solid and far out penetrate in depth and stability a poorly designed 550 gr 458 caliber bullet……. My son recently shot a medium sized elephant at 10 yards, perfectly executed side brain shot, with a 350 gr .474 caliber properly designed solid at 2200 fps. This bullet exited the head on the far side and still may be going for all I know. A 350 gr .474 caliber bullet has a sectional density of .223, and I personally would choose this little 350 gr bullet over the Woodleigh 500 gr RN FMJ at .4725 (ones I have here) any and every day for any mission…………
These are undeniable facts, and can be proven over and over and over again in all test work, and these factors have been exercised in the field and have proven themselves in the field, many many times over…… These are the 8 Known Factors of Terminal Penetration of Solid Bullets……………..
As great as the Hornady DGX-Bonded 480-gr./.458-cal. appears to be, here is a disturbing report on a 500-gr DGX fired from Hornady factory ammo, known to be accurate and 2140 fps in a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag. Also from Doc M of MIB who copied from another site:
"This was posted on African Hunting, actually by a fellow in India I believe that is a Game Warden or whatever they call it………… Animal control or what have you……………. He seems to be a fairly reasonable chap from what I have read……"
UPDATE , 14th November 2020 : Hornady 500 grain DGS ( Dangerous Game Solid ) meplat nose copper clad steel jacketed solids ( used in .458 Winchester Magnum factory loads ) are completely unsuited for frontal brain shots on rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bulls . Gross deformation and bullet failure experienced at 30 yard range , on seven ton rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull . Animal had to be downed with borrowed .303 British ( standard forest department issue Lee Enfield ) and 215 grain meplat nosed nickel clad steel jacketed solids ( East Bengal Ordinance Factories production loading ) . Suggestions for improvement : Bonding steel jacket to alloy core , increasing jacket thickness , enclosing bullet’s rear end with steel jacket . Personal note : Extremely disappointed . Genuinely was under the impression that Hornady had improved the construction of all their bullets . Based on above experience , the Hornady DGS cannot be recommended for shoulder shots on Gaur bulls either .
Riflecrank comments on the above: I hope that the reportedly pictured DGS above has been subsequently improved by Hornady, like with thicker steel meplat and jacket, maybe bonding of lead core too, like they improved the DGX to DGX-Bonded. The color in the image above makes the bullet look like the previous attempt by Hornady, a brass-encapsulated, round-nosed, lead-cored "FMJ Solid" they called the "Encapsulated Solid" which was oxymoronic. But it must be the lighting of the image. That first DGS was a copper-washed, steel-jacketed, lead-cored, flat-nosed oxymoron of a solid. The author from "Africa Hunting" surely described it accurately, even if his image was off-color, as would be the verbiage from anyone thinking of using it for DG. DGS becomes DG $#!T in their mind.
Anyone care to conjecture what the pressures might be, of this ammo fired in a SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum ? I know one thing for certain: The pressure will be lower than when the same ammo is fired in a SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott. Kids, don't try that at home without adult supervision.
That is from a 24" factory-barreled Ruger No. 1 at 80 degrees F. Both loads with 83.0 grains of AA-2460. 500-gr TBSS at 3.550" COL, 450-gr TSX at 3.570" COL, just so as to be less than the .458 Lott max COL. Either WW-Super or Hornady .458 WinMag brass may be used. If you use Norma brass the COL may be shortened by 0.1", thus 3.450" and 3.470" respectively, which makes the Lottites even more envious. That will fit inside the Sunny Hill drop box for a standard-length Mauser M-98, FN or Whitworth Mk X, no weakening of action required.
As great as the Hornady DGX-Bonded 480-gr./.458-cal. appears to be, here is a disturbing report on a 500-gr DGX fired from Hornady factory ammo, known to be accurate and 2140 fps in a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag. Also from Doc M of MIB who copied from another site:
"This was posted on African Hunting, actually by a fellow in India I believe that is a Game Warden or whatever they call it………… Animal control or what have you……………. He seems to be a fairly reasonable chap from what I have read……"
UPDATE , 14th November 2020 : Hornady 500 grain DGS ( Dangerous Game Solid ) meplat nose copper clad steel jacketed solids ( used in .458 Winchester Magnum factory loads ) are completely unsuited for frontal brain shots on rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bulls . Gross deformation and bullet failure experienced at 30 yard range , on seven ton rogue Asiatic jungle elephant bull . Animal had to be downed with borrowed .303 British ( standard forest department issue Lee Enfield ) and 215 grain meplat nosed nickel clad steel jacketed solids ( East Bengal Ordinance Factories production loading ) . Suggestions for improvement : Bonding steel jacket to alloy core , increasing jacket thickness , enclosing bullet’s rear end with steel jacket . Personal note : Extremely disappointed . Genuinely was under the impression that Hornady had improved the construction of all their bullets . Based on above experience , the Hornady DGS cannot be recommended for shoulder shots on Gaur bulls either .
Riflecrank comments on the above: I hope that the reportedly pictured DGS above has been subsequently improved by Hornady, like with thicker steel meplat and jacket, maybe bonding of lead core too, like they improved the DGX to DGX-Bonded. The color in the image above makes the bullet look like the previous attempt by Hornady, a brass-encapsulated, round-nosed, lead-cored "FMJ Solid" they called the "Encapsulated Solid" which was oxymoronic. But it must be the lighting of the image. That first DGS was a copper-washed, steel-jacketed, lead-cored, flat-nosed oxymoron of a solid. The author from "Africa Hunting" surely described it accurately, even if his image was off-color, as would be the verbiage from anyone thinking of using it for DG. DGS becomes DG $#!T in their mind.
Sir Ron,
My impression is (despite the report from African Hunting) that the bullet in the pic is the former "Encapsulated Solid", not the current DGS. My take is based on the fact that I have a box of those brass solids, and the color is identical to that one in the hand, and secondly, the rifle grooves in that bullet is the same color as the jacket. If it were the current DGS, the external coloration of the jacket material (thin copper) and steel groove should be different.
And, that would not be the first time I've found African Hunting (I'm a member) to be off base, or "behind the times" in reporting.
I just don't believe that the bullet in the photo is the current DGS. And is somebody "grinding an axe"?
Added: And that appears to be an outdated report. (Fixed irt from DGX to DGS)
I have Norma brass coming, I'm going to compress as much AA2230 as I can and see how fast I can push 450 TSX
Sir John,
Your choice of COL will be interesting. I have not tried any 3.340" COL loads with that bullet. Starting at about 70.0 grains of AA-2230 with COL of 3.340" would be most interesting. My Long COL results:
Norma brass, F215 primer, 3.565" COL, 450-gr TSX, 3-shot averages starting with 80.0 grains AA-2230 in a Ruger No. 1 factory barrel, 24", 82*F, corrected to MV for BC = 0.369:
80.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2408 fps MV (second most accurate load)
84.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2464 fps MV (Most Accurate Load, a 50-yard bugholer)
85 and 86 grains gave less velocity, and only one shot with 86 grains was fired because the primer fell out of case on ejection.
Hornady brass, GM215M primer, 3.680" COL, 450-gr TSX, in a Shilen 25" barrel on a CZ 550 Magnum, 42*F:
84.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2469 fps MV (scope loose after 36 rounds fired, this bullet and 350-gr TSX also being tested same day)
WW-Super brass, F215 primer, 3.570" COL, 450-gr TSX, in same Ruger No. 1 factory barrel as above, 24", 80*F, LabRadar MV, average for 5 shots:
83.0 grains AA-2460 >>> 2459 fps MV (best 3 of 5 hasty shots landing at 100 yards were about 0.5 MOA on centers)
Lessons learned:
1. Check ring screws after every 20 rounds, at least, with kickers, and silicone adhesive between scope and lower ring half (at least) is a good idea to prevent loosening.
2. Norma brass may be loaded to a COL of about 0.1" shorter than Hornady or WW-Super brass to make roughly equivalent loads.
3. AA-2230 and AA-2460 both seem to have good ThermoBallisticStability, they are close to the same composition. AA-2230 is just AA-2460 with some flattened balls to make it pack easier and burn a little faster.
4. 83.0 grains of AA-2460 in Norma brass at 3.460" COL might be ideal.
5. How much AA-2230 can be burned behind a 450-gr TSX at 3.340" COL in Norma brass with satisfactory results is unknown to me, but needs to be discovered.
Sir Jerry's words about his reunion with the SAAMI .458 WinMag, sounds like he had more fun than happens at any 50th Anniversary High School Class Reunion:
All true Sir Ron and lead me to do exactly what i just finished this morning, i went to ""The Alter of the SAAMI spec'd 458 WM"" to see just how much i could do at 3.340" and 500grs of Partition bullet fueled by AA-2460 powder, pics on the way, it was/is indeed eye opening LOL, so all the saami spec'd 458 men out there, be not dismayed, if you have a drop tube, some Accurate 2460 powder and 500grs of copper and lead you too can drive 2298 fps if you see the need.
IIRC Hodgdons site calls the 74gr charge of Accurate 2460 under 500 grainers at 53,000 psi, not 55, not 58, not 60, not 65K like the little 308 and 270 Winchester, and not a primer pocket swelling 75K, a lowly 53K, the 458 WM is truly a remarkable chambering, i have no pressure testing eq, but do remember the primers from the 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS looked great at 2418 fps and 2350 fps respectively and the pockets are still tight, those loads happily eat 83gr 2460 with col's in the 3.560-3.580 inch neighborhood.
I would have never thought of even trying for near 2300 fps with any 500gr bullet in my old FN saami length Browning, i had already loaded a literal chit-ton of 500gr partitions at 2166 with H-335 long before hearing about 2460 powder or having the pleasure of meeting Sir Ron, but as you'll see on the target box, those old loads are accurate hammers, the 50 yard bullseye was hit with a 500gr TBSS at 2200 fps with 2460 powder and the factory barrel sights, i gave it a bit more speed to run with the 500gr pointer partitions to land within the group at 100 with the scope, which it handily does, i shot it first, then screwed the scope back on with QD rings for the 100 yard group with the 500gr partitions, also, how's that for a return to zero setup? ; ]
If one wanted to shoot the 500gr partitions or 500gr PP Woodleighs when they resume production at 2300 fps, or the 450gr TSX's at 2400+ fps you'd easily have ALL game load to 300-350+ yards, the 404 Hammers at 2500 would give you 400 yards if you know your drops, that's pretty damn versatile.
Great work by Sir Jerry.
100-yard 3-shot with scope:
50-yard bughole group with iron sights:
That Browning Safari FN M98 .458 WinMag might be the most lethal elephant rifle on the planet. Ron "Mahohbo" Thomson used one like it to take over 6000 elephant ... But who's counting among friends anyway? ... as he might ask.
LOL Big B, it'd take a chitload of jugs to catch either, there'll never be flies settled on even the saami spec'd 458 WM, 500gr at 2300 is anyone's hammer ; ]
Facts, Facts, Facts! Could you guys not make up some wild claims from time to time to give somebody something to cry "Foul!" to? A Thread on a gun forum not filled with BS and exaggerations is rarer than a Good Samaritan CCW holder who can place 8-10 on target in a crowded mall food court. Long live the King 458WM! Long live the freedom to live by truth! F01
Notice the lesser bearing surface on the 222 grain Hammer VS the 225 grain TSX in .358 diameter This is why one can use more powder to increase velocity with the Hammer bullets
Dang right JWP, another reason i think my 404gr Hammer bullet load with AA2460 at 2500 fps will be at 50K PSI or less, buffalo hunting 110 degrees all day long!
Dang right JWP, another reason i think my 404gr Hammer bullet load with AA2460 at 2500 fps will be at 50K PSI or less, buffalo hunting 110 degrees all day long!
Agreed, on that slickness of the Hammer bullets. At similar COLs, I noticed it took an extra grain of powder with the Hammer 404gr to get same velocity as with the 400-gr HV. The HV by GSC is a pretty low-friction bullet itself.
I also SWAG that the slickness of the PDR bands also translates to less drag in the air, as well as less drag in the barrel.
BTW, here are the only two parts one needs to convert a 3.4" M70 Classic .458 WinMag into a 3.6" magazine repeater. Drop-in gunsmithing and reversible to original parts. Even a caveman can do it:
Here is the .375 H&H box used in the newer Winchester M70 made by FN in South Carolina about 2012. The .458 WinMag Super Grade made by same folks uses a box like this with a block that fits in the folded rear of the box, and no folding inward of feed lips like on the older Classic:
Here is the .270 WCF box for an M70 Classic that still has the block installed at back of box, but has had a steel plate soldered onto front of box to prevent recoil denting, also the Wiebe XRM box for 3.6" and one extra round in box. The 270 WCF box holds 3 down in .458 WM, the XRM box holds 4 down in .458 WM:
I have since popped the block out of the rear of the M70 Classic .270 WCF box and it holds 3 down with .458 WM 3.6" COL.
That may be something I do in the future. I’ve done quite a few for M70 300 Wins and 7 Rems in the past. As RC says, so easy a Marine can do it, and not break much.
Sir Scotty, I started to do that to my standard SAAMI .458 WinMag M70 but since it is a later South Carolina/FN-Winchester, my Connecticut Classic mag box is a different fit. The mail-order parts at Midwest Gun Works out of Missouri are for the M70 Classic, not the SC/FN M70. I would have to rob another SC/FN .375 H&H rifle to make the switch. There are all sorts of possibilities ...
I will illustrate the SC/FN mag boxes and followers for .30-06, .338 WM, .375 H&H, and .458 WM ... to be continued. I am most comfortable with recommending a switcheroo on the Connecticut Classic M70, having done that myself, a .270 WCF 3.4" to .400 Whelen 3.6" which was as slick as your conversions to long box .300 WM and .338 WM.
But I take heart in this:
My SC/FN .458 WinMag has an inside box length of at least 3.410" which easily handles my 3.380" COL with 404-gr Shock Hammer, and 450-gr CEB Safari Solid at same 3.380" COL.
The unaltered rifle will also eject a single-loaded, unfired round with COL of 3.540". Easily ejects 3.480" COL with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. No change in ejector/boltstop required. No milling on the receiver required. No magazine box switcheroo required.
Having a +3.6" mag box is desirable but not necessary. The factory +3.4" box will handle a magazine feed of 3.380" ammo, no problemo.
Loaded with WW/Hornady brass the 450-gr CEB/3.380" gives +2350 fps in a 24" barrel. Loaded with Norma brass, the 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.380" COL gives + 2500 fps, equivalent to the preferred 3.480" load of 404-gr SH in the WW/Hornady brass.
The 404-gr Shock Hammer may be loaded to 3.480" COL with Norma brass, and that will be better than trying to load it to 3.580" in WW/Hornady brass. Not enough bullet remains in case for 3.580" COL with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Poor .458 Lott, it has a 1:10" twist barrel by SAAMI. But that is only about two-tenths of one percent worsening by higher pressure and lower velocity, not nearly the losses due to throat differences, compared to the SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber in a 1:14" twist barrel of same length.
GREAT NEWS ! Sir "DocM" Michael at MIB is doing pressure tests on the .458 WM+ ammo in a 20" M70 Classic barrel, cut down from 24" factory barrel. Comparing data on initial loads showed only a 72 fps loss from 24" to 20" barrel shortening. 18 fps average per inch over that range.
I might get his permission to copy and paste his pressure results here ...
It is with great sorrow that I must stop using the phrase "buy a donkey" as a phonetic representation for the Afrikaans language "thank you very much."
After a week of reading, I just got to here in this epic thread. Thanks for the pics and details above bout mag length.
Separately, if the Lott has a 1:10 twist, and was throated to match the SAAMI WM chamber, then it might do better with the very high BC bullets shown some pages back if one were inclined to do some very long range target shooting with their 458. Of course, you would want a heavier gun and probably a break or suppressor on the gun to make it a comfortable to shoot LR precision gun. Definitely outside the scope of hunting with these things the way most of us do. Just interesting to ponder.
I have taken notes on reloading throughout this thread. To recap though, what is the consensus on the best powder to choose for the 404 Hammer bullets? Can non magnum primers be used for range practice, or are magnums really required regardless?
Thanks to all of you for helping me get started in the 458 world!
It is with great sorrow that I must stop using the phrase "buy a donkey" as a phonetic representation for the Afrikaans language "thank you very much."
Sir Tony, sell those donkeys to the glue factory.
Sir Ron, Consider it Done! LOL! Needed the Space in the Barn anyway! LOL!
Sir Scotty, I started to do that to my standard SAAMI .458 WinMag M70 but since it is a later South Carolina/FN-Winchester, my Connecticut Classic mag box is a different fit. The mail-order parts at Midwest Gun Works out of Missouri are for the M70 Classic, not the SC/FN M70. I would have to rob another SC/FN .375 H&H rifle to make the switch. There are all sorts of possibilities ...
I will illustrate the SC/FN mag boxes and followers for .30-06, .338 WM, .375 H&H, and .458 WM ... to be continued. I am most comfortable with recommending a switcheroo on the Connecticut Classic M70, having done that myself, a .270 WCF 3.4" to .400 Whelen 3.6" which was as slick as your conversions to long box .300 WM and .338 WM.
But I take heart in this:
My SC/FN .458 WinMag has an inside box length of at least 3.410" which easily handles my 3.380" COL with 404-gr Shock Hammer, and 450-gr CEB Safari Solid at same 3.380" COL.
The unaltered rifle will also eject a single-loaded, unfired round with COL of 3.540". Easily ejects 3.480" COL with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. No change in ejector/boltstop required. No milling on the receiver required. No magazine box switcheroo required.
Having a +3.6" mag box is desirable but not necessary. The factory +3.4" box will handle a magazine feed of 3.380" ammo, no problemo.
Loaded with WW/Hornady brass the 450-gr CEB/3.380" gives +2350 fps in a 24" barrel. Loaded with Norma brass, the 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.380" COL gives + 2500 fps, equivalent to the preferred 3.480" load of 404-gr SH in the WW/Hornady brass.
The 404-gr Shock Hammer may be loaded to 3.480" COL with Norma brass, and that will be better than trying to load it to 3.580" in WW/Hornady brass. Not enough bullet remains in case for 3.580" COL with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Makes sense RC. Mines a Classic. I haven’t outgrew the 3.4” power level yet…. I might not ever
Michael McCourry aka Sir Michael, aka Michael458, aka Doc M of MIB (McCourry Institute of Ballistics) is the "M" of "B&M" rifle and ammo fame.
He has given permission to share his .458 WinMag handloading data here. Pressures and velocities are measured at the MIB laboratory.
Anyone handloading ammunition does so at their own risk. Rifles and components do vary, as do the reloading results involving them. Start about 10% below maximum load and work up, for any MIB data. I have been known to use Sir Michael's data to good effect. Children should not try that without adult supervision.
Slideshow below is my summary from reading the MIB data and copying photos:
Here are my results when copying the MIB load data with the 450-gr CEB FN brass solid and AA-2230 as propellant. I used only 5 bullets for complete workup. No other handload with that bullet need apply for my .458 WinMag.
We are awaiting more pressure data on a 20"-barreled .458 WinMag from MIB Laboratory. Some people like them short.
Good to know you only lose about 72 fps in chopping from 24" to 20". That means 2500 fps in a 24" becomes 2428 fps in a 20" with a low pressure 404-gr Shock Hammer at COL of 3.380" (Norma brass if WW/Hornady/RP too hot ?). That means 2349 fps in a 24" becomes 2277 fps in a 20" with a sub-59,000 psi 450-gr CEB brass FN at COL of 3.360" (WW/Hornady/RP brass: All good).
I SWAG that is about the velocity and pressure Doc M of MIB will find if he tests the CEB with two bands out of case, with post-2016 vintage AA-2230, F215 primer, and WW-Super, Hornady, or RP brass. WLRM primers will do fine, they are very close to F215 and the same-same GM215M.
Still waiting for Pac-Nor to send a 10"-twist barrel for 24" length for an FN Mauser 98 .458 WinMag. That will be tried for comparison (by me) against a Pac-Nor 1:10" barrel of 19.75" length on the .458 B&MW Winchester M70. Those two cartridges have same throat and have same case capacity when COL is adjusted properly with the specified bullet.
That fast twist will allow the long and pointy VLD bullets to be tested at supersonic speed, and all sorts of shorter bullets to be tested at subsonic speed. And the 24" Mauser will be threaded for suppressor. The Vietnam fiasco of the suppressed .458 WM-1.6"&1.3" with 500-gr FMJ at 1100 fps can be improved upon, no doubt.
Separately, if the Lott has a 1:10 twist, and was throated to match the SAAMI WM chamber, then it might do better with the very high BC bullets shown some pages back if one were inclined to do some very long range target shooting with their 458. Of course, you would want a heavier gun and probably a break or suppressor on the gun to make it a comfortable to shoot LR precision gun. Definitely outside the scope of hunting with these things the way most of us do. Just interesting to ponder.
Yes, it must be tried, for fun if nothing else.
I have taken notes on reloading throughout this thread. To recap though, what is the consensus on the best powder to choose for the 404 Hammer bullets? Can non magnum primers be used for range practice, or are magnums really required regardless?
For the 404-gr Shock Hammer, I think that it will be hard to improve on AA-2230 and AA-2460, kissing cousins. I also hope to test heavily compressed H4895, since it was fastest yet with the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN. I prefer to use magnum primers and a good crimp to insure uniformity and good ignition, especially with the preferred ball powders. But I would not hesitate to use the non-magnum, large rifle primers with the extruded likes of H4198 and faster powders, especially for range practice with any bullet suitable for plinking fun.
Thanks to all of you for helping me get started in the 458 world!
SLGPT, Join the Square Table and pick a SIR NAME, please.
Looking at bullet choices, will the CEB 450g solids shoot to a similar POI as the 404 Hammers, or might I be better off with the 400g solids instead?
There are no good 400-gr FN solids for the .458 WinMag at present, unless the Woodleigh HYDRO 400-grainer becomes available again, or some other maker (Hammer or CEB) decides to make one that has a band structure suitable for use in both .458 WinMag and .45-70 Govt. The Woodleigh HYDRO does that.
The 450-gr and 500-gr FN solids are best choices. You can make them work with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. the 450-gr TSX and 500-gr TBSS work a charm for the .458 WM+ at less than 3.6" COL. He-men like Sir Jerry like that combo. He also has a good load combo with the 404-gr SH and 500-gr TBSS. It is all good.
I like the idea of 3.38" COL or less in the +3.4" mag box found on most factory .458 WinMag rifles. Sir Jerry has demonstrated that too, in Browning Safari FN Mauser. See his copy to you. Hard to beat.
Oh yes, my broken foot is healing well. Just the second metatarsal was fractured mid-shaft, X-ray yesterday. I'll be hiking in good boots, might shoot some more deer with 404-grainer, before I get back to Alaska or Africa.
With the understanding that I am not an experienced 458 shooter and have nothing to add to this great caliber yet, how about Sir Roo?
I found some AA 2015 locally, but there is not much choice in powders around here. I like to keep as few powders on hand as possible so I look for versatile powders. Varget seems to be pretty universal. I used it in 308 many years ago, and now with 458 and 375 coming up for reloading, it seems to be a good choice. Anyone use it for these calibers? Better or worse than anything else? Any favorite loads? Is there a more universal powder I should look at?
Also, the only problem with this thread is trying to go back and find specific data!
Yessirree, Sir Roo it is. You get a Bill Bagwell Bowie tap on the shoulder at the Square Table Rendezvous, whenever that happens. Arise and sally forth with Varget. Many decent loads with that I am sure. It is my favorite powder in the .404 Jeffery with any bullet weight. Top performer in the .500 Jeffery too, from experience with one load there.
Alas, I have not tried it in the .458 WinMag, but if I did, I would first take the Woodleigh manual max loads for the .458 Lott using VARGET: 500-gr Woodleigh RNSN, 83.0 gr VARGET >>> 2220 fps, not compressed 500-gr Woodleigh FMJ, 83.0 gr VARGET >>> 2210 fps, mildly compressed 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN, 79.0 gr VARGET >>> 2110 fps, not compressed 550-gr Woodleigh FMJ, 77.0 gr VARGET >>> 2050 fps, mildly compressed Those .458 Lott loads would be close to 3.600" COL or less, and 62,500 psi or less. If you load a .458 WinMag to 3.600" COL with those bullets and powder charges, you will most likely have better performance regarding velocity and pressure. But start a little lower than max .458 Lott load with the .458 WM+, and you will be able to work up to max .458 Lott load at least !
Standard SAAMI .458 WinMag loads with VARGET follow (Woodleigh manual), not the fastest loads but not far off, and VARGET is supremely accurate and uniform, temperature insensitive, and works great with mild compression. The Woodleigh VARGET data for 24" barreled .458 WinMag at 3.340" COL or less and 60,000 psi or less, most likely:
400-gr Woodleigh PPSN: 74.0 gr VARGET >>> 2210 fps, not compressed 77.0 gr VARGET >>> 2310 fps, mildly compressed
480-gr Woodleigh RNSN: 72.0 gr VARGET >>> 2050 fps, not compressed 77.0 gr VARGET >>> 2150 fps, mildly compressed
500-gr Woodleigh RNSN: 70.0 gr VARGET >>> 2010 fps, not compressed 74.0 gr VARGET >>> 2110 fps, mildly compressed
550-gr Woodleigh RNSN: 69.0 gr VARGET >>> 1960 fps, not compressed 72.0 gr VARGET >>> 2015 fps, mildly compressed
I always go for VARGET as a replacement for RL-15, grain for grain, VARGET is the better powder. Hodgdon EXTREME.
Well, I just picked up my third .458 WM on Monday of this week. This is a running total for the past 30 years. This one is a semi-custom Ruger M77 Mark II. Came with dies and some brass. I am planning on deer hunting some with it. Anyone have any good Whitetail loads worked up?
I’m planning to use 250 Monoflexes and H4198 in mine. They shoot well and should air out a deer easy enough I think. They are just about 2950 if I remember correctly.
Well, I just picked up my third .458 WM on Monday of this week. This is a running total for the past 30 years. This one is a semi-custom Ruger M77 Mark II. Came with dies and some brass. I am planning on deer hunting some with it. Anyone have any good Whitetail loads worked up?
rodeojoe, welcome to the Fire, beretzs' load above will be great for low recoil flat shooting white tail deer.
Quick story about your AO, one cold winter night in 2013-2014 i was headed to a 24hourcampfire pig shoot in Monterrey Tenseness, a bit West of Cookeville i blew a #4 injector line on my dodge cummins, i called boss man, he asked what yardstick on I-40E i was at, i told him, in just a little bit two tan unmarked vehicles pulled in behind me with a rolloff wrecker behind them, i take it they were some kind of cops, do you guys have a TBI, state investigative service or some such?
Anyway, they got my truck loaded on the wrecker, i rode in the wrecker to the Dodge dealership right there in downtown Cookeville, the two tan cars went on and parked across the street as we turned into the dealership, we pulled around to the service bays, up walked a man in a grey work uniform smiling with a wad of keys in his hand, he unlocked and rolled up a big door, the wrecker driver dumped my pickup off on the ground, we pushed it backwards into the bay, the service guy went and got a new injector line, installed it for me right there, jumped in and we rode around the building to a detail bay, he fired up a pressure steam washer and washed some of the diesel fuel from under the hood and down the drivers side of my pickup.
I drove him back around front, he closed and locked the door, this all happened at 9 p.m. at night, the guy didn't charge me a dime, wouldn't even take a 100 dollar tip offer, the wrecker driver said no charges either, they shook my hand and sent me on my way, that was a chit load of great hospitality and service i experienced in your town and state that evening, you see, i was prepared to sleep all night in a cold pickup, i had a load of pretty expensive guns on board for the pig shoot, when i got back home, i told Wife if we ever leave this farm in Oklahoma, we're moving to Cookeville Tennessee!
As i pulled up on the get on ramp i noticed the two tan cars again, they followed me a for a few miles then exited up the interstate a bit, nice guys all around.
Thank you Sir Ron, for the hospitality as well as the load data. I have some 404 Hammers on the way and load data for them with the AA2015. I will incorporate the Varget data and see which works better. Just need to get some cast bullets now for cheaper practice. I suspect most of my shooting will be with 400g at around 2300, but I will just have to see.
I do have an Ontario Helles Belle to bring to the gathering, but no real Bagwell knives here, I am afraid.
Well, I just picked up my third .458 WM on Monday of this week. This is a running total for the past 30 years. This one is a semi-custom Ruger M77 Mark II. Came with dies and some brass. I am planning on deer hunting some with it. Anyone have any good Whitetail loads worked up?
rodeojoe, welcome to the Fire, beretzs' load above will be great for low recoil flat shooting white tail deer.
Quick story about your AO, one cold winter night in 2013-2014 i was headed to a 24hourcampfire pig shoot in Monterrey Tenseness, a bit West of Cookeville i blew a #4 injector line on my dodge cummins, i called boss man, he asked what yardstick on I-40E i was at, i told him, in just a little bit two tan unmarked vehicles pulled in behind me with a rolloff wrecker behind them, i take it they were some kind of cops, do you guys have a TBI, state investigative service or some such?
Anyway, they got my truck loaded on the wrecker, i rode in the wrecker to the Dodge dealership right there in downtown Cookeville, the two tan cars went on and parked across the street as we turned into the dealership, we pulled around to the service bays, up walked a man in a grey work uniform smiling with a wad of keys in his hand, he unlocked and rolled up a big door, the wrecker driver dumped my pickup off on the ground, we pushed it backwards into the bay, the service guy went and got a new injector line, installed it for me right there, jumped in and we rode around the building to a detail bay, he fired up a pressure steam washer and washed some of the diesel fuel from under the hood and down the drivers side of my pickup.
I drove him back around front, he closed and locked the door, this all happened at 9 p.m. at night, the guy didn't charge me a dime, wouldn't even take a 100 dollar tip offer, the wrecker driver said no charges either, they shook my hand and sent me on my way, that was a chit load of great hospitality and service i experienced in your town and state that evening, you see, i was prepared to sleep all night in a cold pickup, i had a load of pretty expensive guns on board for the pig shoot, when i got back home, i told Wife if we ever leave this farm in Oklahoma, we're moving to Cookeville Tennessee!
As i pulled up on the get on ramp i noticed the two tan cars again, they followed me a for a few miles then exited up the interstate a bit, nice guys all around.
Glad you enjoyed your trip to this part of the country. And I-40 thru Monterey is watched very closely for all kinds of trafficking, drugs being at the top of the list. They seemed to have overlooked my invite to the pig shoot that year. Great story, helps take away some of the shame of Al Gore coming from this part of the country!
Riflecrank, I have a New Haven CRF .458 M70, and I'd like the ability to load the 3.6" rounds. Thanks for your post on how to do it... I found the ejector online, but I can't find the #1110 box. I did find a #1450/1460 box at Midwest Gun Works, but don't know if it will drop into my Super Express. Any suggestions?
Also, at the risk of further digressing from the current bullet topic, as a thought experiment, is there any advantage to reaming a .458 Win throat for a cartridge such as a .458 WSM/B&M that is built on a short action with a 2.8" magazine limit?
Well, I just picked up my third .458 WM on Monday of this week. This is a running total for the past 30 years. This one is a semi-custom Ruger M77 Mark II. Came with dies and some brass. I am planning on deer hunting some with it. Anyone have any good Whitetail loads worked up?
rodeojoe,
Sir Joe is taken. How about Sir Rodeo ? I have a Ruger Mk II .458 WM with Shilen No. 5-1/2 Sporter contour barrel that can be switched from HS Precision to Zytel Canoe Paddle stock, depending on my mood. I love it, great rifle. What bullet weight do you want to hunt deer with ? My last two deer were taken with the Ruger Mark II and 400-grainers. We have loads aplenty here, but you gotta narrow it down to your druthers, so many possibilities with the incredible, versatile .458 WinMag, from 250-grainers on up.
Sir Jerry, That is quite a tale of VIP treatment. You must be quite the VIP. I have fond memories of Alan Wilson's Wilderness Lodge, four trips there over 20 years ago ...
Riflecrank, I have a New Haven CRF .458 M70, and I'd like the ability to load the 3.6" rounds. Thanks for your post on how to do it... I found the ejector online, but I can't find the #1110 box. I did find a #1450/1460 box at Midwest Gun Works, but don't know if it will drop into my Super Express. Any suggestions?
Also, at the risk of further digressing from the current bullet topic, as a thought experiment, is there any advantage to reaming a .458 Win throat for a cartridge such as a .458 WSM/B&M that is built on a short action with a 2.8" magazine limit?
Sir Bevan, Dang, the #1110 is discontinued. The #1450/#1460 (chrome-moly/stainless) look like the ones used in the FN/SC M70, not the Connecticut Classic. Best to just pop the spacer out of the rear of your current box. At MGW, #1030 looks like the Classic box and is specified for .458 WinMag, with block at back of box: NOT DISCONTINUED at MGW ! Get one of those to practice on, to preserve your original box. The rear block can be popped out with a sharp chisel, or you can drill out the four little spot welds to make it easy. Use a flashlight and look down into the block to see where the welds are. If you do not like having four little holes at the back of the box, they can be filled with solder and stoned smooth. The back of the box can be easily straightened up after any minor mutilation. With the block removed, there will be a split than can be JB-Welded or soldered and stoned smooth. Or just leave as is and just smooth and square the split so all is flush when held in the action by the fit into bottom of action.
My .458 B&M on a WSM M70 Classic has a 3.0" box and is limited to 2.95" COL. I thought it needed to be re-throated with a .458 WM reamer. It is now a .458 B&MW. It will single-load 3.34" COL now and has same case capacity as a .458 WM 3.6" when I do that, with same bullet of adequate length to reach.
LOL rodeojoe, yes, fun times on those pig shoots, i wish you could have made some, we would have had a blast, still not sure what kind of coppers those were, i didnt ask either, just happy they showed up.
Sir Ron, LOL, no vip here Sir, i dont know who Doc called or exactly what he said, but it may have been along the lines of "we need to do whatever it takes to get this crazy hillybilly redneck fixed up and sent on his way, and send me the bill" ; ] you see, i was carrying three double rifles, an 8 bore rifle, a couple three Sharps rifles and several handguns, i would have hated like hell to make a damn big mess along the roadways of Tennessee in the event of an attempted carjacking/robbery type deal.
The Wilderness Lodge was a fun place, i miss those gatherings with the 'Fire crew.
LOL rodeojoe, yes, fun times on those pig shoots, i wish you could have made some, we would have had a blast, still not sure what kind of coppers those were, i didnt ask either, just happy they showed up.
Sir Ron, LOL, no vip here Sir, i dont know who Doc called or exactly what he said, but it may have been along the lines of "we need to do whatever it takes to get this crazy hillybilly redneck fixed up and sent on his way, and send me the bill" ; ] you see, i was carrying three double rifles, an 8 bore rifle, a couple three Sharps rifles and several handguns, i would have hated like hell to make a damn big mess along the roadways of Tennessee in the event of an attempted carjacking/robbery type deal.
The Wilderness Lodge was a fun place, i miss those gatherings with the 'Fire crew.
Does anyone know what the mag length is on an Interarms Mark X? Any thoughts on these guns in general? How about compared to the Remington 798?
Sir Roo, The Whitworth Mk X from Interarms of Alexandria, VA that I have, when still in .458 WinMag from factory (two of them) were not opened up, had standard 3.4" mag box length. I had one with rings in the chamber and had to re-chamber to .458/.416 Ruger. It still has the original box which is too skinny to get 3 down in .458/.416 Ruger but handled .458 WinMag 3+1. I still have not windowed that box or replaced it, will put calipers to it or see if I ever measured and wrote it. Old Fugly you know about, had gunsmith open it to the front for .458 Lott when I was young and stupid. I don't know if the Remington 798 had an H&H box length for .458 WinMag. The Mk X when opened up to H&H length at the factory had it all done to the front, unlike the Pre-'64 M70 that was opened mostly to the rear, for .300 & .375 H&H.
Michael458, Plumb prolific of you. Nice additions to the spread sheet for the 20″-barrel data for 2022. It’s all good, the more powders the merrier. Thank you very much.
What powder do I like best with the 404-gr Shock Hammer ? AA-2230 of course. I am going to take your loads with the old AA-2230 with a grain of saltpeter, however.
Why did Western Powders have to reformulate the AA-2230 and AA-2460 in 2016 anyway ? Must have been a problem with the old formulae. The change was said to have made them more stable in the thermoballistic way, less temperature sensitive. That got my attention.
I never used any AA-2230 until 2017 when I had my .458 WinMag resurrection. AA-2230 was the most commonly recommended powder by many when I resumed reloading for the .458 WM, and I have not been disappointed.
I think AA-2230 and AA-2460 are the same chemical composition, my SWAG: The tiny balls of AA-2230 are about a 50:50 mixture of perfect spheres and flattened ones (oblate spheroids). All of the AA-2460 balls seem to be perfect spheres. The mixture of flattened granules and spherical ones allows the AA-2230 a more compact loading for same weight of powder, and there is a greater surface area on the flattened granules for quicker ignition. So AA-2230 is a slightly faster powder requiring no compression when same weight of AA-2460 requires some compression. Not much difference between them. Flatten half the granules in AA-2460 and you have AA-2230. I prefer AA-2460 for 450-500-grainers, and AA-2230 for 400-grainers.
404-gr Shock Hammer WW-Super brass 2.500″ trim F215 3.480″ COL (crimped on third of five grooves) 39*F 25″ Shilen barrel, .458 WinMag: AA-2230 81.0 grains >>> 2507 fps (5-yard), 2517 fps MV (estimated 20″ velocity = 2427 fps MV)
404-gr Shock Hammer NORMA brass 2.500″ trim F215 3.480″ COL (crimped on third of five grooves) 40*F 25″ Shilen barrel, .458 WinMag: AA-2230 84.0 grains >>> 2535 fps (5-yard), 2545 fps MV (estimated 20″ velocity = 2455 fps MV)
Here are faster-burner powders that might get pressures higher but seem trouble-free in same rifle as used above:
404-gr Shock Hammer WW-Super brass 2.500″ trim F215 3.480″ COL (crimped on third of five grooves) 86*F 25″ Shilen barrel, .458 WinMag: H4198 72.0 grains >>> 2504 fps (5-yard), 2514 fps MV (estimated 20″ velocity = 2424 fps MV)
404-gr Shock Hammer WW-Super brass 2.500″ trim F215 3.480″ COL (crimped on third of five grooves) 86*F 25″ Shilen barrel, .458 WinMag: H322 78.0 grains >>> 2500 fps (5-yard), 2510 fps MV (estimated 20″ velocity = 2420 fps MV)
SHORTER COL FOR HIGHER MV:
NORMA brass 80.0 grains AA-2230 with 404-gr Shock Hammer, 40*F, 25″ Shilen barrel 3.380″ COL >>> 2488 fps MV 3.480″ COL >>> 2425 fps MV … lost 63 fps by loading 0.100″ longer COL
MORE POWDER MAKES UP FOR LONGER COL MV LOSS:
Same day, same rifle, same 40*F temp, same 3.480″ load with 4 grains more powder 84.0 grains AA-2230 >>> 2545 fps MV … gained 120 fps MV (82.0 grains in 3.480″ COL is about equal to 80.0 grains in 3.380″ COL)
It is about a 10-hour drive to haul new-version AA-2230 to the MIB laboratory. I am thinking about it. Owe you for that steak dinner at DSC 2013.
Sir Ron, Thank you, I forgot that you had done some work with the Interarms yourself. I've heard that opening up the action from the front is not a good way to go. No idea if that is the case with the Mark X or if it is just standard length. Are you happy with the guns themselves? Better or worse than an M70 or anything else you like?
I am a pretty basic reloader, and though I used to load long-range ammo for a few different calibers, I currently only load hunting ammo for my 45LC revolvers. Why do you prefer 2230 for the lighter bullets and 2460 for the heavier bullets? I would have assumed 2230 across the board, or if anything, 2230 for the heavier and 2460 for the lighter bullets.
Well, I just picked up my third .458 WM on Monday of this week. This is a running total for the past 30 years. This one is a semi-custom Ruger M77 Mark II. Came with dies and some brass. I am planning on deer hunting some with it. Anyone have any good Whitetail loads worked up?
rodeojoe,
Sir Joe is taken. How about Sir Rodeo ? I have a Ruger Mk II .458 WM with Shilen No. 5-1/2 Sporter contour barrel that can be switched from HS Precision to Zytel Canoe Paddle stock, depending on my mood. I love it, great rifle. What bullet weight do you want to hunt deer with ? My last two deer were taken with the Ruger Mark II and 400-grainers. We have loads aplenty here, but you gotta narrow it down to your druthers, so many possibilities with the incredible, versatile .458 WinMag, from 250-grainers on up.
I picked up a box of 325 grain Hornady FTX to play with. I have not picked a powder for them yet. I can't take the recoil I used to but I won't need it for 100yd or closer shots. My M77 Mark II also has a Shilen barrel on it. It was on it when I picked it up.
My 458 Lott barrel arrived for my Blaser R8 the other day and I took it out this morning for a test run. Gun weighs 10.5# loaded and I shot Federal 400g TBBC as well as Federal 500g Swift A-Frames and one 500g Federal 458 Lott solid.
The 400g TBBC's were an absolute joy to shoot. I'll post a short video later if I can. I plan to do most of my shooting in the future with 400's. I would have shot a bunch of them today but I only have the one box so far.
The 500g A-Frames were less pleasant to shoot, but were just fine as well. I have about 120 of them to shoot up for brass.
The 458 Lott cartridge was a skosh more recoil than the WM, but really not a big deal. The R8 design handles recoil very well. I probably have 60 of these to make brass out of.
If I am lucky, a more traditional 458WM bolt gun should show up late next week and then I will compare the two side by side.
I'm not crazy about having the Lott chamber, but I probably won't be loading long ammo anyway, so hopefully it won't matter much. I am looking into have JES recut the chamber to improve the throat.
Is it going to be Sir Rodeo, Sir Cooke, or Sir What ?
Originally Posted by rodeojoe
I picked up a box of 325 grain Hornady FTX to play with. I have not picked a powder for them yet. I can't take the recoil I used to but I won't need it for 100yd or closer shots. My M77 Mark II also has a Shilen barrel on it. It was on it when I picked it up.
I have one good load for that bullet, it was another one-and-done 5-shot test over an Oehler 35P with a 100-yard target. That bullet is pretty soft, usually loaded to no more than 2100 fps in a .45-70, but you could start here and work down if it is too destructive of venison:
325-gr FTX COL = 3.300" seated long (seated on factory cannelure, COL will be about 2.990") H4198 71.0 grains, F215 primer, WW-Super brass (or Hornady or RP brass OK) 24-7/8" CZ barrel, 59*F 5-yard Oehler velocity, uncorrected to MV = 2550 fps
Starting with 55 grains of H4198 and 2.990" COL would probably be like a hot .45-70 Govt. load from the restrained .458 WinMag. You can play with low powder charge and +/- foam wad filler as well as COL to find an accurate load at desired velocity, I bet.
Sir Ron, Thank you, I forgot that you had done some work with the Interarms yourself. I've heard that opening up the action from the front is not a good way to go. No idea if that is the case with the Mark X or if it is just standard length. Are you happy with the guns themselves? Better or worse than an M70 or anything else you like?
I am a pretty basic reloader, and though I used to load long-range ammo for a few different calibers, I currently only load hunting ammo for my 45LC revolvers. Why do you prefer 2230 for the lighter bullets and 2460 for the heavier bullets? I would have assumed 2230 across the board, or if anything, 2230 for the heavier and 2460 for the lighter bullets.
Sir Roo,
Those Whitworth Mark X rifles have been great, except for that issue with rings in the chamber of one .458 WinMag. Factory reamer chatter is blamed.
I still have a half dozen Mark Xs in the safe: .358 STA, .375 WBY, .416 Barnes Supreme, .450 Barnes Supreme all on the "lengthened actions/3.6" mag boxes," and the two that started as unopened-up actions with 3.4" boxes for .458 WinMag. BTW, my unaltered Mark X factory box for the .458 WinMag measures 3.410" long inside the box, same as the SC/FN M70 Super Grade.
Great thing about those Mausers is the mag box integral to floor plate, and thicker front wall than the sheet metal M70. Factory Winchester M70 vs commercial M98 ? Both need some work done on them. Either one would satisfy me, ditto the Ruger M77 Mark II or Hawkeye, for a bolt action .458 WinMag. If you have unlimited gunsmithing dollars, the true Controlled-Round-Feed and Controlled-Round-Extraction of the M98 (and CZ 550 Magnum, BTW) give them an edge over the others that are CRF only without CRE.
I was perfectly happy with AA-2230 for 450-500-grainers, then I tried AA-2460 and found it just as good with a grain or two more powder, and for about same speed it gives slightly lower pressure with the heavier bullets, according to Western Powders maximum load data. Compress the AA-2460 a bit and it acts like AA-2230. I consider AA-2230 to be merely a pre-compressed form of AA-2460. AA-2460 grains are all spherical, maybe why I have seen it listed as "AA-2460s" some places. AA-2230 looks like AA-2460s with about half of the grains flattened into oblate spheroids, but I repeat myself, my SWAG.
My 458 Lott barrel arrived for my Blaser R8 the other day and I took it out this morning for a test run. Gun weighs 10.5# loaded and I shot Federal 400g TBBC as well as Federal 500g Swift A-Frames and one 500g Federal 458 Lott solid.
The 400g TBBC's were an absolute joy to shoot. I'll post a short video later if I can. I plan to do most of my shooting in the future with 400's. I would have shot a bunch of them today but I only have the one box so far.
The 500g A-Frames were less pleasant to shoot, but were just fine as well. I have about 120 of them to shoot up for brass.
The 458 Lott cartridge was a skosh more recoil than the WM, but really not a big deal. The R8 design handles recoil very well. I probably have 60 of these to make brass out of.
If I am lucky, a more traditional 458WM bolt gun should show up late next week and then I will compare the two side by side.
I'm not crazy about having the Lott chamber, but I probably won't be loading long ammo anyway, so hopefully it won't matter much. I am looking into have JES recut the chamber to improve the throat.
Sir Roo,
Very interesting. Did you chronograph any of the loads for posterity ?
Have you checked the throat length of your "CIP" .458 Lott ? Surely your .458 Lott barrel is made to current CIP which matches SAAMI. Wouldn't it be weird if BLASER was using an old CIP reamer which had same throat at the end of it as on the .458 WIN MAG ?
SAAMI and CIP homologations for the .458 WIN MAG have never differed, except SAAMI only allows 60,000 psi MAP while CIP allows a +62,000 psi MAP for the .458 WIN MAG.
Running a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into the chamber of a SAAMI/Current CIP .458 Lott is indeed a good fix, with non-cutting belt on that reamer. Then you will be able to safely fire all .458 WM+ loads in your .458 Lott.
I have not chrono'd those Federal loads, but I have more and can do so at some point. I have also not measured the throat but will get that done in the near future as well.
Until today, all of my 458WM experience was with a stock M70, and it was pretty nice. The R8 is a pretty amazing rifle though and I look forward to wringing it out more fully, and in comparison to a Mauser (soon) and an M70(who knows when).
Incidentally, the gun handles recoil so well, that the 12.75" LOP that is on it right now was no issue whatsoever. I had wanted it to be 13", but Blaser USA messed up a bit and took an extra .25" off. I'm still sorting though possible solutions to make it 13". I have a second Professional stock that is at Blaser now, hopefully coming home with a 13.25" LOP. We will see.
How fast are you guys shooting lead bullets and how hard are they? I remember seeing Sir Ron's coated and gas-checked bullets back in the thread, but is anyone using bullets that are only coated and not gas checked? I'm interested in shooting some 18 Brinnell powder coated bullets as fast as I can without getting any leading.
Does anyone have a commercial source to buy correctly hardened, PC and GC bullets? Thank you.
Is it going to be Sir Rodeo, Sir Cooke, or Sir What ?
Originally Posted by rodeojoe
I picked up a box of 325 grain Hornady FTX to play with. I have not picked a powder for them yet. I can't take the recoil I used to but I won't need it for 100yd or closer shots. My M77 Mark II also has a Shilen barrel on it. It was on it when I picked it up.
I have one good load for that bullet, it was another one-and-done 5-shot test over an Oehler 35P with a 100-yard target. That bullet is pretty soft, usually loaded to no more than 2100 fps in a .45-70, but you could start here and work down if it is too destructive of venison:
325-gr FTX COL = 3.300" seated long (seated on factory cannelure, COL will be about 2.990") H4198 71.0 grains, F215 primer, WW-Super brass (or Hornady or RP brass OK) 24-7/8" CZ barrel, 59*F 5-yard Oehler velocity, uncorrected to MV = 2550 fps
Starting with 55 grains of H4198 and 2.990" COL would probably be like a hot .45-70 Govt. load from the restrained .458 WinMag. You can play with low powder charge and +/- foam wad filler as well as COL to find an accurate load at desired velocity, I bet.
Sir Ron, lets go with Sir TNly Joe
I have H4198 powder under my reloading bench. Also picked up 1,000 of the F215 primers last year. Thank you for a starting point with the FTXers.
I have had this R8 for many years now, but have only really started to appreciate it more recently. Just got my 458 Lott barrel in and am planning to really just shoot WM ammo through it, though the Lott ammo is barely more noticeable than the WM. The R8 design really handles recoil well. My gun weighs 10.5# loaded, so not a lightweight.
What is the pronunciation of "TNly" that you prefer ? Like "Tennesseely Joe" or or like "Tee In Lee Joe" or just leave it unspeakable as symbolic of "The Artist Formerly Known as rodeojoe" ?
How fast are you guys shooting lead bullets and how hard are they? I remember seeing Sir Ron's coated and gas-checked bullets back in the thread, but is anyone using bullets that are only coated and not gas checked? I'm interested in shooting some 18 Brinnell powder coated bullets as fast as I can without getting any leading.
Does anyone have a commercial source to buy correctly hardened, PC and GC bullets? Thank you.
I think the PC paint acts as a sort of gas check on the bottom of a plain-base bullet. And the PC paint also reduces leading whether plain base or gas check. I have several plain base that I use with PC paint and no grease lube. No leading problems at under 2000 fps with those, and I suspect BHN 18 would do OK for that too, though mine are harder. 2200 fps with gas check, PC paint, and BHN 25 works nicely. I need to see if 2500 fps with my 400-ish-grainer hardcast/GC/PC-painted bullets work well too. Still have not done that. So many possibilities.
A .459" cast bullet might shoot OK at less than 1400 fps in a .458 WM. For top performance at +1400 fps in .458 WM with groove diameter of .458" to .459" you must use bullet diameter of at least .460" to .461" it is true.
Have not bought any cast bullets for rifle except some Berry's .45-70 bullets that were .459" greasers, about 405-gr FN hardcast, about BHN 18-19. The SAAMI minimum groove for .45-70 is 0.456", and many .45-70 rifles are .457", or .458"-grooved. The Berry's bullet works best in my .457"-grooved .45-70 rifles at 1400 to 1800 fps.
Thank you again Sir Ron. I have been using PC bullets for a number of years now in my revolvers, no gas check there, but at these higher velocities, it seemed that a belt and suspenders approach is what I saw most often in this thread. I would like to get higher velocities to match my hunting loads, so will see if I can source some GC, PC bullets at harder than 18. If not, then it sounds like 2000fps is what I need to shoot for.
What is the pronunciation of "TNly" that you prefer ? Like "Tennesseely Joe" or or like "Tee In Lee Joe" or just leave it unspeakable as symbolic of "The Artist Formerly Known as rodeojoe" ?
Sir Ron, you have to look at it like a vanity car plate.
Ha Ha Sir Bob, me too ! No reason in the world to load that 300-gr TSX to 3.200" instead of 3.330" to 3.340" unless you are wanting to keep the .458 B&M at 2.950" COL looking good against a .458 WinMag at 3.200", with the same bullet. Let it play out and we will hopefully get to some longer COL. Doc M is crazy like a fox. He is the reason the CEB Safari Solids have such crazy band structures, designed to perfection for a .458 B&M with 2.240" brass length and 2.95" Max COL.
Even at 3.200" COL, the .458 WinMag with 76.0 grains of H4198 is a hummer with the 300-gr TSX:
Remember the Western Powders data and load as long as your rifle will allow:
Rough rules of thumb being considered for the .458 WinMag:
1. 0.1" longer COL will reduce pressure about 2000 psi and velocity about 60 fps. Adding about two grains more powder will get your 60 fps back. Adding 4 grains more powder will get 120 fps back with that 0.1" longer COL. Pressures to be measured, I hope, someday. No problems indicated in my rifles ... so far.
2. 18 fps per inch of barrel is gained from 20" to 24". Lesser gain per inch above 24", greater loss per inch below 20".
Yes, the .458 Winchester Magnum at 3.600" COL is both bigger in case capacity than the .458 Lott at 3.600" COL and the .458 Winchester Magnum has a greater chamber + throat length from breech to contact with rifling than the .458 Lott. The .458 WinMag had a weak sister that begat a nephew to the .458 WinMag. That nephew is the .458 Lott monkey. Yes, the .458 WinMag is the proverbial monkey's uncle:
That little feller on the left above is named ".458 Lott."
Norma does same (CIP) MAP for both .458 WM and .458 Lott: 4300 bar or 62,365 psi. That is one set of shackles off the .458 Winchester Magnum, manacles off. I expect that they are both same construction in the head, for NORMA brass. COL restrictions = ankle chains. The .458 Winchester Magnum unchained is the .458 WM+: 62,500 psi and 3.600" COL, or even longer with some bullets, longer than can be done with a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Made some more 458 brass this afternoon and my first batch is in the ultrasonic cleaner now. Primers and powder are now here, hopefully, my bullets will be any day now too. I'm going to prep my brass later today and as soon as the bullets arrive, I will have my first test with my hand loads for the 458WM (currently shot out of a Lott but don't hold that against me). Maybe the 98 will get here this week for testing from a real 458WM chamber as well.
Pressure data coming soon from MIB, on the 300-gr TSX, 350-gr TSX (and 404gr Shock Hammer):
Damn! those 350gr Northfork's in my old 26" barreled lever Marlin 45-70 would be all conus/Alaska/Canada game wreckers, SWEET! wish i hadn't sold that rifle.
GUNNER, THE 450 GRAIN NF SOLIDS DID TAKE ELE AND BUFF WITH ONE SHOT KILLS FROM MY 26 INCH BARRELLED 1886 45-90. THAT OLD COMBO JUST KEEPS WORKING AT 2150 FPS MV..
You bet CRS, good stuff man, i have often thought about a little custom double rifle in 45-70 or 90, with of course 26" barrels for balance and pointability.
I am of the belief that the NF 350 gr Expanding-CPS would be decisive on anything in North America, out of anything.458. No idea of their BC, but the larger 458's should toss them out fast enough to perform at 200 yards.
Gunner, Pic of my 45-90 DR with 26 inch barrels - regulated with 350 grain NF 350ss at 45 yards by Aaron Little - still tight group out at 100 yards. very accurate with scope.
I am of the belief that the NF 350 gr Expanding-CPS would be decisive on anything in North America, out of anything.458. No idea of their BC, but the larger 458's should toss them out fast enough to perform at 200 yards.
Oh hell yes LDM, an easy 250 yard hide/meat/bone punch, that thing would strike a mighty blow!
Is anyone loading 458WM and 375H&H with the same powder? If so, what do you like? I'm looking at 300g bullets in the 375(jacketed for now, maybe lead later) and 400g (both lead and copper) in the 458.
Started to resize my cases after depriming, cleaning, primer pocket and charge hole cleaning. Lubed outside of the case as well as the inside of the shoulder, per the instructions. I'm using Lee dies and lube, though I have mostly used imperial in the past, but also that Oneshot spray on stuff. And then immediately stuck it in my die. Do you guys prefer a particular lube or method? Do you do the full length of the case (where normally you would not do the shoulder on a bottleneck)? Any tips or tricks would be much appreciated!
I think I have tried it all. I save the sizing wax and graphite for fussy and tricky low-volume or special-purpose jobs.
You hear a lot of belly aching about finger-rolling cartridges on a lube pad. Once I discovered there is a difference between lube pads, I quit belly aching. Hornady and RCBS pads are awful.
Lyman Case Lube Pad Item No. 7631302 is tops.
Load that pad with RCBS Case Lube-2 and that is as good as it gets.
Water soluble lube. Easy cleanup by washing or tumbling.
The simple Lyman pad and RCBS Case Lube-2 works for bullet sizing too, cup & core, copper and brass or copper monometals.
Is anyone loading 458WM and 375H&H with the same powder? If so, what do you like? I'm looking at 300g bullets in the 375(jacketed for now, maybe lead later) and 400g (both lead and copper) in the 458.
Sir Roo, In those bullet weights, H4895 is a versatile powder, for either reduced loads down to 60% of max (with or without filler) or for 110% compressed loads with the .458 WM+ and 400-grainer.
Ditto. I still have not done a thing with my Remington Spartan/Baikal Slumlord Double Rifle in .45-70 Govt. Thinking those brass 400-gr CEB FN gifted by Sir Jerry could backup my 409-gr hardcast, or just go with the Sir Saint Bagwell PH 475-grainer. I just need to keep them down to 28,000 CUP/PSI.
I should have 125 Norma 458 Winn mag cases in hand by Friday. I'll be getting down to business then and see how much speed I can't get at magazine length in my MarkX 458 Win
SLGPT I use Imperial Die Wax on just about everything including loading for double rifles. Never a problem. Use graphite inside, wax outside.
Sorry to hear you are stuck with One Shot.
I used the Lee lube on this run, just to try it out as I have had no experience with it. Came with the die set. One nice thing about Lee Dies is that if you do get stuck, it only takes a few seconds to get unstuck, so in this case, all I lost was brass and some confidence, lol. I have used Imperial for much loading over the years and will likely try it on these again.
I think I have tried it all. I save the sizing wax and graphite for fussy and tricky low-volume or special-purpose jobs.
You hear a lot of belly aching about finger-rolling cartridges on a lube pad. Once I discovered there is a difference between lube pads, I quit belly aching. Hornady and RCBS pads are awful.
Lyman Case Lube Pad Item No. 7631302 is tops.
Load that pad with RCBS Case Lube-2 and that is as good as it gets.
Water soluble lube. Easy cleanup by washing or tumbling.
The simple Lyman pad and RCBS Case Lube-2 works for bullet sizing too, cup & core, copper and brass or copper monometals.
Thank you Sir Ron, I will look into the RCBS case lube in conjunction with the Lyman pad. Do you lube the inside of the mouth at all?
Are you guys thinking that the only reason I got stuck was inferior lube? I hope that's the case. Can't think what else it could be, but I also figured the lee lube would work well. Guess not.
I got my .375 ejector and the replacement .458 magazine. Popped out the spacer and good to go with 3.6" rounds in the magazine. My question is...do I also need a shorter bolt stop like this one?
Is anyone loading 458WM and 375H&H with the same powder? If so, what do you like? I'm looking at 300g bullets in the 375(jacketed for now, maybe lead later) and 400g (both lead and copper) in the 458.
Sir Roo, In those bullet weights, H4895 is a versatile powder, for either reduced loads down to 60% of max (with or without filler) or for 110% compressed loads with the .458 WM+ and 400-grainer.
I think I have a line on a pound of 4895 and some RL15 to try. Hopefully between those two and my Varget and AA2015, I will find some happy loads. Also have some .460 405 grain lead on the way and will see how fast I can push the PC bullets. Thanks again for all the help!
Gunner, I LabRadar'd 2 rounds with the 350gr North Fork Expanding CPS at 2826 & 2822 FPS from the longer brass / shorter throat 458 type today. 380 Lehigh Copper Flat Point = 2735 & 2735 fps from the same brethren. Accurate 2460 Powder.
I just had a disturbing thought, is shooting 458WM out of a Lott barrel causing the brass to stretch abnormally? I will have to measure the fired brass and see how long it is.
Well, I fixed the stuck case issue. Switching back to Imperial made a huge difference. I will not be using the Lee lube again. I did order the stuff Sir Ron recommended, as I don't want to be quite as slow as the imperial requires.
Also, I measured my cases out of the gun, and then again after sizing. After firing, the cases were all right around 2.490. After resizing, they were all around 2.510. Does that sound normal? Trimming them after sizing to get them down to 2.490 took a bit of time, lol.
I got my .375 ejector and the replacement .458 magazine. Popped out the spacer and good to go with 3.6" rounds in the magazine. My question is...do I also need a shorter bolt stop like this one?
Yes, that should do the trick. I was pretty sloppy in saying ejector/boltstop needs to be shortened. That is two parts, ejctor and bolt stop. Three parts needing alteration if mag box is included.
Doggonnit, since I have caused so much aggravation here, I am going to order parts for two conversions of the FN/SC M70. I have run out of M70 Classics for conversion and am stuck with the FN/SC models.
The Super Grade .458 WinMag will be done for sure. Then, either an All Weather .338 WinMag, or a .30-06, the latter also requiring bolt face opening up.
Two will get the treatment to part switching: 1. Longer mag box, not blocked at back. 2. Shorter-length fixed ejector blade so cartridge is ejected at longer retraction backward. 3. Shorter-length breech bolt stop so bolt can be retracted farther backward to expose that fixed ejector. The .338 WinMag or .30-06 may also get re-barreled to .458 WinMag, after the M98 gets its Pac-Nor barrel. So many toys, so little time.
I should have 125 Norma 458 Winn mag cases in hand by Friday. I'll be getting down to business then and see how much speed I can't get at magazine length in my MarkX 458 Win
Sir John,
Great. We shall record results for posterity. The more verifications of the might of the .458 WinMag, the better to counter Lottite propaganda. Just using Norma brass is like turning a 3.340" actual COL into a 3.440" effective COL. etc.
Thank you Sir Ron, I will look into the RCBS case lube in conjunction with the Lyman pad. Do you lube the inside of the mouth at all?
Are you guys thinking that the only reason I got stuck was inferior lube? I hope that's the case. Can't think what else it could be, but I also figured the lee lube would work well. Guess not.
I don't inside-lube neck on .458 WM. What pad were you using to apply the lube?
I just had a disturbing thought, is shooting 458WM out of a Lott barrel causing the brass to stretch abnormally? I will have to measure the fired brass and see how long it is.
Sir Roo, The case mouth of the .458 WM fired in a .458 Lott chamber will be stretched a little wider than when fired in its proper chamber. Might result in longer cases after re-size. The .458 Lott is bad ju-ju for more reasons than one.
Sir Ron, I think you are correct on the chamber/brass issue (no surprise there). I will have to see about changing to a WM chamber, but that might take some doing. In the meantime, my Mark X will be here next week and I can start using a real WM and see how it goes.
I was just using my fingers with the Lee lube, as well as the Imperial. I have been told to lube the inside neck of the 458's, so I did. Redding just says to rub your Imperial finger over the mouth and that will be enough. Lee says to use a cotton swab and apply it to the inside. I followed both directions, Redding won.
But you would agree that .020 is too much trimming, especially on the first firing of factory ammo?
.458 brass grows when fired and resized like any other caliber. If the chamber is tight and die is a close match, doesn’t grow much. Chamber sloppy and die is something else, it grows. Remember the the Rcbs X die? It attempted to hold the length static while resizing. It disappeared so the market said it didn’t work. I never used one. The idea had merit though. As a side note, you maybe are trimming needlessly. Certainly are in a Lott chamber but many 458wm will accept brass longer than spec.
Norma cases, fed 215 primer, 81 grains AA2230, 404 Shock Hammer averaged 2422 FPS. COAL 3.3665" which just fits the magazine of the MarkX Mauser action
.458 brass grows when fired and resized like any other caliber. If the chamber is tight and die is a close match, doesn’t grow much. Chamber sloppy and die is something else, it grows. Remember the the Rcbs X die? It attempted to hold the length static while resizing. It disappeared so the market said it didn’t work. I never used one. The idea had merit though. As a side note, you maybe are trimming needlessly. Certainly are in a Lott chamber but many 458wm will accept brass longer than spec.
That is certainly a good point on not needing to trim for the Lott chamber. My thought was to just use WM spec ammo in all guns. Not only for compatibility in different guns, but also to avoid having to trim to different lengths, adjust seating dies and crimp...Also, after this first firing, maybe it won't grow as much, who knows?
I will hopefully get some velocity data on these loads later today, or tomorrow, as well as measuring (as well as I can) the throat of the Lott.
Yes Sir Ron, so very little time, that little double would be a world star with those 400gr lever solids, i'd gladly shoot everything with them, never mind a soft point load.
Damn good stuff LDM and JWP, we're ALL going to have to quit slamming steel and punching paper and go kill some meat somewhere.
I only resize enough to hold a bullet. However that is almost a full length resize. I don’t know of a belted mag die that would actually bump the belt so…. Your mileage might vary.
That's what I thought but a buddy with way more belted magnum experience than I have said it was an issue to avoid. He said his gun failed to fire a primer because of it, so he altered how he sets up the die. I set mine up like any other die, and followed the directions it came with.
Fall is coming and mine will take its yearly sacrifice of whitetail.
Perfect F01, i'm going to use Sir Ron's 404 Hammers on all manner of plains game and a big Cape Buffalo if i can find one, will be good tests for that new bullet, 2500 fps will let me hunt the plains game out to 350 yards, i would like to stalk in and slam the buffalo as close as possible, another small testament to the 458 WM+'s versatility.
Gunner, We all await the practical field application. I think that 404 Hammer is the top-dog for versatility. Near or far, big or small; it pretty much does it all.
Just got in from shooting the 458's over the radar. Out of my 23" barrel from the R8, the WM averaged 2125 at the muzzle, and the Lott averaged 2270 at the muzzle. Both were 500g Federal factory ammo. If there was any loss at all from the WM being fired in a Lott chamber, then I'm not sure why anyone buys a Lott today, lol. I will say though, that, unlike the first time I fired the Lott last week, today the Lott ammo seemed to be gentler than the WM ammo. Either way, if you can show me an animal that can tell the difference, under any circumstance within 100 yards, I'd be amazed. The difference in velocity at 100 yards, btw, was even less, 1924 for the WM vs 1980 for the Lott.
I will shoot the factory 400's for velocity as well, but I am pretty short on them right now and just didn't take them out.
Fortunately, my 405g cast bullets arrived today (.460) and I'm hoping I can get them over 2000fps without leading.
Gunner, We all await the practical field application. I think that 404 Hammer is the top-dog for versatility. Near or far, big or small; it pretty much does it all.
Yessir, i certainly intend to find out, unproven bullet yes, but massive thought/R&D factored in, will still be backed by a mag full of 500gr TBSS's at 2350, i dont expect a rodeo, but have no doubts they'll sort one out in short order.
Norma cases, fed 215 primer, 81 grains AA2230, 404 Shock Hammer averaged 2422 FPS. COAL 3.3665" which just fits the magazine of the MarkX Mauser action
Sir John, More good work noted. Last two loads above must surely be a continuation on the 404gr Shock Hammer. Is your barrel the factory Whitworth or a custom ? Length is 24" or maybe 23.6"/600mm if factory ?
Yes, great speed and work Sir Ron, another pointer that my load with the 404gr Hammer at 2500 with 2460 has to be extremely low pressure, i cant wait to loose it the first time.
I am sure you won't be gut-shooting that cape buffalo at close range like Jack Lott did in 1959 with a .458 WinMag. And your 500-gr TBSS from the .458 WM+ will not go squirrely like Jacks's followup RN-FMJ from a .458 WM, even if you were to somehow shoot as poorly as Jack did. Terrible mishaps do happen. You might have a meteorite strike next to your feet just as you touch off and wobble your aim or cause a reflex flinch from meteorite impact. Funny how Jack and his buddies kept hunting with their .458 WinMags for over a decade before concocting the stories about .458 WinMag failures. That BS was all about shooter failure and poor bullet construction unable to stand up to the mighty power of the .458 WinMag. Excuses to sell some wildcats, like the .458 Lott and .460 G&A.
Sir Roo, I would blame your fingers for misapplication of the Lee Lube. But Lee lube is less good than RCBS Lube-2. Lee Liquid Alox might be OK for lazy man cast bullet lubrication of a bucket full of handgun plinkers, but man oh man is it ever messy in cleanup, if tried for bullet sizing of jacketed and monometal brass and copper. Ditto STP Oil Treatment, never again.
Too much of whatever lube gives lube dents, too little gives stuck case. Lyman pad is best at uniform light lubing of cases, with RCBS Lube-2. Roll seven at a time for good luck. Roll with light pressure for one complete revolution forward, then backward,to where they started on pad. Make sure you hold your tongue just right as you do it. Then each case can be picked up off the pad and twisted and twirled between fingers of other hand on the way to going into sizing die, which is especially satisfying if you like coon-fingering the lubed brass like me. Keep a rag or paper or cloth shop towels draped over your thigh as you sit there, rolling and fingering, to wipe the lubed fingers on now and then.
H&H belt: I once tried to order some fancy dies billed for special care of H&H belt. Unavailable/out of stock at the time, years ago. So, I forgot about it. I just FL size as with any other non-belted case and never had a problem. Same brass works in all my many .458 WM rifles, never a missfire or difficulty in chambering.
Yes, great speed and work Sir Ron, another pointer that my load with the 404gr Hammer at 2500 with 2460 has to be extremely low pressure, i cant wait to loose it the first time.
Yes, Sir John is shooting .458 WM+ loads at ~3.37" COL in his standard SAAMI .458 WinMag with standard mag box. ~2500 fps with AA-2230, 3.37" COL, in 24" barrel, in Norma brass. ~2500 fps with AA-2460, 3.48" COL, in 24" barrel, in Winchester, Hornady, or RP brass. Both loads have about same effective case volume, due to brass difference, wee bit larger in the WW/H/RP at 3.480".
Exact velocities and pressures depend on the rifles, of course. Remember Tim Sundles 400-gr TSX Buffalo Bore factory load for .458 WinMag getting 2247 fps in his 22" factory M70 and 2250 fps in his 18" custom M98 with Marquart barrel, and possibly a tighter throat, tighter/smoother rifling, and possibly higher pressures. He does not say much about that. Custom rifle.
My Ruger No. 1 barrel, 24" factory barrel, gave 2336 fps MV (2323 fps 5-yard chrono), 10-shot average with Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX load. That was with factory load COL of 3.310". My Ruger No. 1 is intermediate in speed to the two rifles of Tim Sundles, correcting for barrel length.
That 400-gr TSX was pulled from factory ammo and loaded to 3.540" COL (last groove crimp). Loaded with 80.0 grains AA-2230 the MV was 2405 fps (2392 fps 5-yard chrono) 5-shot average. That was just about a full case load at longCOL. I SWAG that the Buffalo Bore factory load is with 76.0 grains of AA-2230, compressed at 3.310" COL.
Do not worry about powder compression unless you bulge the case on seating the bullet, or have signs of high pressure on firing, of course. MIB pressure data on that 20" .458 WM and some .458 Lott is pending.
R, Thank you for the testing and results. Thank goodness someone can and will do it!
I usually just find something that works and go kill game without creating any lasting record, other than pix of dead game!
So, here are two pix of unusual game taken with my 100 year plus rifle design : PS the hunter behind the cat is NOT a beginner. Rifle: 45-90 cartridge with NF bullet: Also lots of Cape Buff, but pix of them are very common.
Belted cases which also have a shoulder should be resized like any other non belted case and fitting the shoulder to the chamber. Likely that is what your buddy was referring to. The 458wm always hEad spaces on the belt so we can’t sent chamber crush on the shoulder because there isn’t one. I do wish Lee would make me a 458wm collet die but alas they only go up to .375.
Thank you again for the help. Sir Ron is probably correct that the lube issue was a loose nut behind the press, but though it was my first time trying the Lee lube, I did follow directions and if anything, I thought it might be too much lube. Didn't get any dents though. At any rate, Imperial saved the day, and once my Lyman/RCBS hybrid shows up, I will give that a try as well.
If anyone has any thoughts on the velocity I was getting, I would be interested to hear them. 145fps difference hardly seems worth anything, and at 100 yards, only a 64fps difference. Can't imagine the Lott showing any difference at all on game, over the great 458WM. The Blaser design is pretty unique, and it allows for things not possible with a conventional bolt gun. In this case, the bolt throw and overall length are not negatively affected by using the Lott, and in those two areas, using the WM provides no benefit. In a conventional bolt gun, of course there are differences that can matter to some. Looking forward to my Mark X arriving Monday.
Sir Charles, Great photos, great memories, eh ? Yep that .45-90-2.4" of yours is almost up to .458 WinMag-2.5" snuff. Makes a laughing stock of anyone claiming the .458 WinMag is inadequate.
Just got in from shooting the 458's over the radar. Out of my 23" barrel from the R8, the WM averaged 2125 at the muzzle, and the Lott averaged 2270 at the muzzle. Both were 500g Federal factory ammo. If there was any loss at all from the WM being fired in a Lott chamber, then I'm not sure why anyone buys a Lott today, lol. I will say though, that, unlike the first time I fired the Lott last week, today the Lott ammo seemed to be gentler than the WM ammo. Either way, if you can show me an animal that can tell the difference, under any circumstance within 100 yards, I'd be amazed. The difference in velocity at 100 yards, btw, was even less, 1924 for the WM vs 1980 for the Lott.
Originally Posted by SLGPT
If anyone has any thoughts on the velocity I was getting, I would be interested to hear them. 145fps difference hardly seems worth anything, and at 100 yards, only a 64fps difference. Can't imagine the Lott showing any difference at all on game, over the great 458WM. The Blaser design is pretty unique, and it allows for things not possible with a conventional bolt gun. In this case, the bolt throw and overall length are not negatively affected by using the Lott, and in those two areas, using the WM provides no benefit. In a conventional bolt gun, of course there are differences that can matter to some. Looking forward to my Mark X arriving Monday.
Sir Roo, My thoughts first of all came to what was the factory loaded bullet used in each of those loads, 500-grain Federal Fusion soft nose or TBBC or TBSS or Woodleigh HYDRO, etc., in both the .458 WinMag and .458 Lott ?
I have tested the .458 WinMag 500-gr Federal Fusion soft nose and the 500-gr HYDRO Federal factory loads in a 24"-barrel of M70 Super Grade from SC. Way faster than advertised for the Fusion: 2192 fps MV (2177 fps 5-yard) average for 5 shots at 46*F. For the HYDRO: 2062 fps MV (2046 fps 5-yard) average for 5 shots at 46*F, same rifle, same shooting session.
That is a good point and I'm embarrassed that I left the info out. The WM was a Swift A frame, and the Lott was a Capped Hydro. I can redo the shoot with ammo using the same bullets, either Swift or Hydro, whichever I have for both. Actually, I don't think they load the Swift in the Lott. I also have some Trophy bonded sledgehammers in both, I think. Only have TBBC in 400g WM.
Sad state of affairs for rifle brass availability in general. Maybe it is time to start necking up and blowing out any .375 H&H based cartridges that can be made to work. That is a lot of possibilities with the .458 WinMag. A mini chop saw will work wonders on .458 Lott brass as a first step.
Getting a mould for heeled bullet .375- caliber at base and .460-caliber above would be fun to use on .375 H&H brass. Could be used as plinking and potshot loads. Fire-form then chop saw, FL size and finish trim to 2.5" and anneal.
The neck wall thickness would be thicker at 2.5" than at 2.8" ...
I am sure you won't be gut-shooting that cape buffalo at close range like Jack Lott did in 1959 with a .458 WinMag. And your 500-gr TBSS from the .458 WM+ will not go squirrely like Jacks's followup RN-FMJ from a .458 WM, even if you were to somehow shoot as poorly as Jack did. Terrible mishaps do happen. You might have a meteorite strike next to your feet just as you touch off and wobble your aim or cause a reflex flinch from meteorite impact. Funny how Jack and his buddies kept hunting with their .458 WinMags for over a decade before concocting the stories about .458 WinMag failures. That BS was all about shooter failure and poor bullet construction unable to stand up to the mighty power of the .458 WinMag. Excuses to sell some wildcats, like the .458 Lott and .460 G&A.
That is some funny stuff Sir Ron, barring an equipment failure, simply cant fathom one being so afraid of their rifle they cant hit a VW beetle bug behind a front tire parked sideways, hell, i/we could hit a buffalo with a damn rock at 50 yards LOL, lott undoubtedly lacked A LOT, must have been how the fraud was hatched to be famous and invent a cartridge in one's name to massage a narcissistic and fragile ego.
I am very sad to report chit shooting is still alive and well today, the 'client' just before little Wife and me landed in that camp in Tanzania 2020 had made a pile of messes, PH told me he shot a blaser in 375 H&H and was from Utah, he:
Gut shot and lost a Cape Buffalo Hit a Leopard bad, PH had to press the barrel of his 450 Rigby against the cat and blow it off one of Trackers Went prone with bi-pod on his blaser to shoot a bull Hippo on dry ground only 26 yards away, PH yanked him up by his belt telling him he was going to get both of them killed! PH finished the bull Hippo blaser guy managed to place crap hits but trackers eventually found a wildebeest and waterbuck
So yes, with all that crap still very alive and well today some other genius is liable to invent us all a new cartridge, it'll be the greatest of all time!!!!! LOL
I am not too proud to beg for some of your science.
Please consider 404gr Shock Hammer pressure test in 20″ .458 WM with F215 primer if possible, WLRM would be good too, just so all are done with same primer:
NORMA brass: 3.280″ COL with 80.0 grains AA-2230 3.380″ COL with 82.0 grains AA-2230 3.480″ COL with 84.0 grains AA-2230
WW-SUPER brass: 3.480″ COL with 81.0 grains AA-2460 3.480″ COL with 82.0 grains AA-2460 3.480″ COL with 83.0 grains AA-2460
Those WW-SUPER (brass case) loads with AA-2460 would be a check on the load for Sir Jerry (gunner500) who is going after cape buffalo soon, with same bullet, same COL, same brass, same powder.
The NORMA (brass case) loads with AA-2230 would be a check on me. I liked that 3.480″ COL with 84.0 grains AA-2230, but would be willing to settle for less if pressure too high.
A drop tube and heavily compressed H4895 is another favorite, no different than a .458 Lott load with a certain 400-gr bullet from Woodleigh, same degree of powder compression with same bullet and COL.
Here is the MIB rifle and laboratory being used to test a 20" barrel for velocity and pressure. M70 Classic factory rifle customized to 20" barrel length:
I wonder how that 20" M70 balances. I used to be all about short barrels, and they did a lot of good work for me but I seem to prefer the balance of a longer tube these days.
Thanks Sir Ron, would be interesting to see the pressure data on my 404gr Hammer buffalo load, in the name of Aunt Jemima, i poured the rest of the better part of a pound of old 2460 into a large plastic pail with two pounds of new 2460, mixed them all up very well by hand, used funnel to pour new mixture into the two new bottles, works like a champ, and with basically ragged hole three shot groups, im GTG!
Sir Jerry, I did note the AA-2460 I bought in 2019 had yellow trim on the label and the 2022 purchase had red. Should be same stuff starting in 2016. Your mixing of multiple 1-pound cannisters is a good practice. I learned that trick from Sir Saint Bagwell. He recommended it for BP to smooth out any lot-to-lot variation.
At the Hammer site:
"We have had several clients take Cape buffalo with Hammers."
We are waiting to find out what lesser calibers than the .458/404gr Shock Hammer were used.
Seems the bloke at Hammer site is not forthcoming except to say .416 Rigby and might have been Aussie buffalo. Might take some digging there to get more specifics. Sir Jerry may be the first on cape buffalo yet as long as he shoots straighter than Jack Lott did. Maybe a first with the 404gr Shock Hammer to boot.
Seems the bloke at Hammer site is not forthcoming except to say .416 Rigby and might have been Aussie buffalo. Might take some digging there to get more specifics. Sir Jerry may be the first on cape buffalo yet as long as he shoots straighter than Jack Lott did. Maybe a first with the 404gr Shock Hammer to boot.
Sir Ron, many thanks for all the work you've done, and are still doing, in regard to the 404gr Shock Hammer.
Don't know when that item will be available in Canada, but there is a shop in Toronto that has dealings with Hammer.
I went looking for another can of CFE-223 yesterday at a shop south of here where I've done a lot of business over the years (and where I purchased my first 1-lb can), and all they had in store were four 1-lb cans (total) of gun powder. Two of which they'd just received - and NO CFE-223!
At the range a week ago, a discussion was had, prior to the commencement of shooting, about the extreme shortage of handloading components, mostly in primers and powders as well as bullets and brass.
My son shared his delima in locating any primers for his Traditions in .44 Rem Mag. He did finally succeed at a small shop, but was told by the shop owner that a client had only on the previous day bought most of his primers for $11,000 (that's eleven thousand). That client will never personally, ever, use that many but will resell at about 2x the cost to himself!
There's a LOT of hording going on based on fear and greed!
You bet Sir Ron, i wont let You, the guys at Hammer, my PH or the buffalo down, you all have a chit-ton of work, money and R&D to expect anything less than the very best, i'll be punching vitals as fast and accurate as possible.
My 404 Hammers arrived today. I was just starting to think about calling them, as it took two weeks to get here. Doing the math with these expensive bullets, it seems like it will cost a bit under half as much to load them (components only), compared to buying a similar factory loading. Might be a bit expensive for normal practice, so I hope to get my cast load sorted out here soon.
Does anyone have any loads for a 405g cast bullet, using AA2015? I only have the smallest amount of Varget left to experiment with, and no signs of getting any more.
Sir Ron, or anyone else, where can I find the actual videos of Sir Bagwell hunting in Africa? I'd like to hear the BP/Sharps stuff for sure, though the pics are very nice.
Sir Ron, or anyone else, where can I find the actual videos of Sir Bagwell hunting in Africa? I'd like to hear the BP/Sharps stuff for sure, though the pics are very nice.
Sir Ron, or anyone else, where can I find the actual videos of Sir Bagwell hunting in Africa? I'd like to hear the BP/Sharps stuff for sure, though the pics are very nice.
Took the Mark X out for her inaugural spin this evening. First shot popped the floorplate open and dumped the ammo. not quite ready for a DG hunt, lol. Other than that, pretty nice gun to shoot. It will need floorplate reinforcement, as well as a few other things that I prefer, but a short trip to the smith should make her right. Lighter than my R8 by about a pound but still very pleasant to shoot. Should make a good squirrel and rabbit gun for my 9 year old.
You bet Sir Ron, i wont let You, the guys at Hammer, my PH or the buffalo down, you all have a chit-ton of work, money and R&D to expect anything less than the very best, i'll be punching vitals as fast and accurate as possible.
Sir Jerry, I am sure you will serve King Four Five Eight as well as Jerry served King Ezekiel on The Walking Dead. BTW, at Hammer site they are saying that cape buffalo has been taken with .416-caliber Hammers. No one yet has counted coup with the 404gr/.458 that I can tell.
Sir Ron, many thanks for all the work you've done, and are still doing, in regard to the 404gr Shock Hammer.
Don't know when that item will be available in Canada, but there is a shop in Toronto that has dealings with Hammer.
I went looking for another can of CFE-223 yesterday at a shop south of here where I've done a lot of business over the years (and where I purchased my first 1-lb can), and all they had in store were four 1-lb cans (total) of gun powder. Two of which they'd just received - and NO CFE-223!
At the range a week ago, a discussion was had, prior to the commencement of shooting, about the extreme shortage of handloading components, mostly in primers and powders as well as bullets and brass.
My son shared his delima in locating any primers for his Traditions in .44 Rem Mag. He did finally succeed at a small shop, but was told by the shop owner that a client had only on the previous day bought most of his primers for $11,000 (that's eleven thousand). That client will never personally, ever, use that many but will resell at about 2x the cost to himself!
There's a LOT of hording going on based on fear and greed!
Sir Bob, I only follow in your footsteps. As to the scarcity of all components lately, I can only say LET'S GO BRANDON.
At least the .458 WM is more flexible and versatile than any other cartridge I can think of. I am going to start making brass from .375 H&H and such. Bullets galore, home cast or hard bought. Powders: Yes anything from Trail Boss, Blue Dot & Blackhorn 209 for ball and shot, AA-5744 for 250-grainers at 2700 fps to 3000 fps, and just about any powder of slower burn rate than that, right on up to CFE-223 for the 500-grainers and heavier. That is a great powder with which to exceed .450 NE ballistics. My oh my we at the Square Table have it better than most. I will admit the .458 Lott might be more useful for birdshot loads, but that is all.
Does anyone have any loads for a 405g cast bullet, using AA2015? I only have the smallest amount of Varget left to experiment with, and no signs of getting any more.
Sir Roo, AA-2015BR is a great powder for Sir Dennis with hardcast FN at a bit under 2000 fps for venison harvesting. It is a bit bulky for getting top velocity with the long monometals, despite its fast burn rate. But it seems to be the cat's meow with a short COL load of a stubby 400-grain jacketed. Western powders data showed a jacketed 400-gr Barnes Original SSSP at 3.140" COL, 24" barrel, Win. brass, F215: 68.4 grains AA-2015 >>> 2172 fps 76.0 grains AA-2015 >>> 2468 fps <<< 57,584 psi Try 63.0 grains AA-2015 for about 2000 fps with your 405-gr hardcast. Use a foam wad filler cut from caulk backer roll to work down to accuracy, or work up for higher velocity. That reminds me to try for 2500 fps with my BHN 25 400-ish grainers, gas-checked and PC-painted. 2100 to 2200 fps is good with those, using the bulky and slow AA-2495.
Thanks for posting the you tube of Sir Saint Bagwell.
About the bang flop noted by Sir Allen: Sir Saint Bagwell admitted that was the only time he had a PH veer off course in the animal. Shoulder bone hit must have deflected the bullet up into the spine. High spine and other vitals taken out. All that can be done by a 480-gr, 50:50 (WW:lead), FN greaser at 1300 fps MV. Lyman PH and BPCR .45-70 Shiloh Sharps 1874. And the Lottites say the .458 WinMag is lacking ?
And about the conversion to 3.6" .458 WM+, of the 3.4" SC/FN M70 Super Grade, my rifle is converted.
I ordered a stainless ejector from MGW and switched it out. Saved some work in shortening the OEM part. The .375 H&H ejector is 0.2" shorter than the .458 WM ejector. Same part for Classic and SC/FN ?
The breech bolt stop I got was the wrong one, maybe the Classic and SC/FN are different in that part ? So I put the OEM part on a grinder and filed some and shortened it 1/4": Perfectly timed ejection and bolt stop now.
A stainless .375 H&H mag box #1460 replaced the OEM, blued #1914 which was windowed at top of sides and blocked at rear. No windows or block on the #1460. Seems when rear of cartridge gets to go farther back in the action, it makes more room up front and the windowing of box is not needed. Holds 3 down of 3.6" cartridges with ease. Feeds the bluntest of FN bullets too. Slick. I am happy I did it.
I need a B&C Medalist stock and a stainless floor plate, so as to save the gold leaf on the current floor plate of this 50th Anniversary Cabela's model, and preserve the wood from abuse. It already has a NEAR, MFG. picatinny on it, with integral recoil stop on the underside front of the rail. Stainless bottom metal would be a fashion statement too, like on Sir Jerry's Ruby Goldberg and my Chimera WinCZechster. Ruby is the one going after cape buffalo with Sir Jerry, wielding the 404gr Shock Hammer .458 WM+.
Here a different Sir Jerry wields a different Shock Hammer:
The Walking Dead does so remind me of the walking Democrap voters.
Yeah, I've seen the short clips on youtube, but I'm wondering where the entire video can be found.
I borrowed the DVDs from Sir Saint Bagwell. Sent them back to him after I viewed them. I am not saying I copied the files to 'puter, or that I lost them in a 'puter crash, nope. I do not know if one or more of the DVDs are GOEX owned/copyrighted. I do not know if Mrs. Sydra Bagwell might be able to sell the DVDs, but that would certainly be nice if they were made available. So, I guess I don't know.
Does anyone have any loads for a 405g cast bullet, using AA2015? I only have the smallest amount of Varget left to experiment with, and no signs of getting any more.
Sir Roo, AA-2015BR is a great powder for Sir Dennis with hardcast FN at a bit under 2000 fps for venison harvesting. It is a bit bulky for getting top velocity with the long monometals, despite its fast burn rate. But it seems to be the cat's meow with a short COL load of a stubby 400-grain jacketed. Western powders data showed a jacketed 400-gr Barnes Original SSSP at 3.140" COL, 24" barrel, Win. brass, F215: 68.4 grains AA-2015 >>> 2172 fps 76.0 grains AA-2015 >>> 2468 fps <<< 57,584 psi Try 63.0 grains AA-2015 for about 2000 fps with your 405-gr hardcast. Use a foam wad filler cut from caulk backer roll to work down to accuracy, or work up for higher velocity. That reminds me to try for 2500 fps with my BHN 25 400-ish grainers, gas-checked and PC-painted. 2100 to 2200 fps is good with those, using the bulky and slow AA-2495.
Yep, I agree Sir Ron;
I'm sitting here in a swivel chair, at my desk, surrounded by all kinds of paraphernalia, a good part of which I'll never use again. But near my left elbow there are hundreds of bullets in .458", and below that several cans of powder suitable for the GREAT .458 Winchester Magnum, that will outlast me! The main propellants for the .458 in hand are: H4895, H335 and H4198. I still have an old can of 2230. Others suitable are H322, A5744, Rl-15 and CFE-223. Plus, I still have several hundred WLRM primers, so I've no need to cry over the politics of Canada or the USA in that regard. But having just settled on CFE-223 for the Whelen, I was hopeful for another can as a backup - but I haven't yet contacted all sources in this area. For the 9.3 x 62, I use RL-17 exclusively, which could also be used in the Whelen in a pinch. I did use that one in an early trial of the Whelen with a 225gr X-Bullet, and it worked well enough, but just a tad too slow. I still have about 75% of that can left, and only use enough to create some new reloads for the 9.3 Mauser when needed for hunting, so will have some left over as a spare for the .35 Whelen if push comes to shove.
Getting ready for bear baiting. Season starts Sept 1 and runs to Nov 30. Wolf/coyote, Sept 15 to Dec 31. Then a new license (if wanted) to Mar 31/23.
I have some but haven't used it in my 458 yet--just in 500 S&W. But it is very close to 5744. As usual, just back it off 5 percent to start from book 5744 loads and you'll be fine.
Good if it is available, looks just like AA-5744, a favorite of mine:
FIREARM CALIBER CASE WEIGHT PROJECTILE COL ST LOAD ST VEL MAX LOAD MAX VEL MAX PSI BUFFALO RIFLE Rifle 45-70 Government Starline 405 405 GR. LC RNFP 5 SAECO 2.560 24.0 1,185 27.0 1,317 17,390 Rifle 45-70 Government Starline 405 405 GR. LC RNFP 10 SAECO 2.550 30.0 1,425 34.5 1,608 28,000
Hey-hey-hey, subsonic to +Mach 2 with a .30-06 and 168-gr SMK:
FIREARM CALIBER CASE WEIGHT PROJECTILE COL ST LOAD ST VEL MAX LOAD MAX VEL MAX PSI BUFFALO RIFLE Rifle 30-06 Springfield Jagemann 168 168 GR. SIERRA SMK 3.245 10.0 1,074 38.0 2,550 57,871
Probably do 2700 to 3000 fps with the 250-gr Hornady Monoflex, like with AA-5744.
Good if it is available, looks just like AA-5744, a favorite of mine:
FIREARM CALIBER CASE WEIGHT PROJECTILE COL ST LOAD ST VEL MAX LOAD MAX VEL MAX PSI BUFFALO RIFLE Rifle 45-70 Government Starline 405 405 GR. LC RNFP 5 SAECO 2.560 24.0 1,185 27.0 1,317 17,390 Rifle 45-70 Government Starline 405 405 GR. LC RNFP 10 SAECO 2.550 30.0 1,425 34.5 1,608 28,000
Hey-hey-hey, subsonic to +Mach 2 with a .30-06 and 168-gr SMK:
FIREARM CALIBER CASE WEIGHT PROJECTILE COL ST LOAD ST VEL MAX LOAD MAX VEL MAX PSI BUFFALO RIFLE Rifle 30-06 Springfield Jagemann 168 168 GR. SIERRA SMK 3.245 10.0 1,074 38.0 2,550 57,871
Probably do 2700 to 3000 fps with the 250-gr Hornady Monoflex, like with AA-5744.
I kinda figured you might be interested. It was available at PV as of this morning.
Thank you Sir Ron, I didn't realize they were a DVD only proposition (it sounds like it anyway). If anyone has them and is willing to loan them for a viewing, I would be very grateful. I will get in touch with GOEX and see if they can be secured through them. Searching before initially posting did not turn up a link to order them.
Also thank you for the 2015 information. I have a similar load that I got from Hodgen's site that I will use with the Hammers to start with and then attempt with the cast bullets.
Possible powders I can use include 2015, Varget, and IMR 4198. Loading for this rifle has reminded me why I got out of rifle reloading, lol.
I picked up the Hodgden Annual yesterday and much to my disappointment, there were no .458WM loads offered at all. Not a one. I did find a few jacked bullets to try out though, so that was good.
I picked up the Hodgden Annual yesterday and much to my disappointment, there were no .458WM loads offered at all. Not a one. I did find a few jacked bullets to try out though, so that was good.
Yes, a sad commentary on the times. 2021 was the last edition containing .458 WM, but not even .458 Lott then. Top of the food chain for 2022 at Hodgdon Annual Manual:
450 Bushmaster 458 SOCOM 45-70 Government (Lever Actions) 45-70 Government (Modern Rifles) 470 Nitro Express 50 Browning Machine Gun
Gone is the 50-140 Sharps too. I blame the Democraps.
I will bring more from MIB shortly. Might as well go ahead and trump the .458 Lott pressure levels with the .458 WM+. If the 270 WCF can be allowed a 65,000 psi MAP, so can the .458 WM+.
Can we draw any conclusions about the longer col loads versus the shorter? If not we are seeing 2460 creating more pressure than 2230 and that means faster burn rate. Great data and many thanks to all providing it!!!
LOL on that walking dead hand Sir Ron, he's damn sure putting away the whale blubber ; ] never saw the show, also very surprised at the pressure differences between WW and Norma brass, crazy stuff.
[quote=gunner500) ".... also very surprised at the pressure differences between WW and Norma brass, crazy stuff.[/quote]
Shows the fallacy of relying on a single source. Personally, I'd like to have seen results from a 24" - 25" barrel. There are too many variables to jump to firm conclusions. If we take Accurate as a source, the results from MIB are disappointing in comparison... as well as Hodgdon's older results. Then again, this test was of a single new 404gr. And thanks to Sir Ron for his expert analysis and getting this done.
I have no answer except to think there is something different about the lot of powder MIB has for AA-2460.
Sir Jerry worked up to excellent results in his rifle, even went to 83 gr and backed off to 81 grains. He had a different lot of powder is the biggest difference. And we are only talking about a difference of one or two grains of powder. The rifle chamber and barrel differences alone could do that. Still scratching my head over that one. I would use Sir Jerry's loads in Sir Jerry's rifle without reservation, and know they are as good as it gets for all practical purposes.
More data from MIB will be forthcoming. I trust the work there. Michael McCourry is good.
You bet Sirs Bob and Ron, i have to wonder about the WW brass having less powder capacity, the smaller combustion chamber could account for the higher pressure, but velocities being so close between the two makes me wonder, only other thing i can come up with is due to the smaller capacity, maybe some of the 2460 granules are being crushed just enough to speed up the burn rate, same/same with compressing black powder.
It all remains good, i'll stick solid with my 404gr Hammer load at 2500+ fps, have already let the rifle and ammo cook on a concrete slab for four hours at 101 degrees, all good, i need to find a heavy hard bossed 40+ inch Cape Buffaol bull to give them a good working out on, cool proofing on the way shortly.
Just a thank you to the Knights and our factual and faithful leader Sir Ron for the investment in learning and sharing that goes on here. Because of this tone and timbre, we have met and appreciated a great group of solid people that we would have never known otherwise. Just the tested results of 2230 and 2460 alone submitted to one’s brain are foundational to much learning and proof of same, about the loading of smokeless into cartridges. It’s just joyful to be part of such cadre. Best regards, F01
Just a thank you to the Knights and our factual and faithful leader Sir Ron for the investment in learning and sharing that goes on here. Because of this tone and timbre, we have met and appreciated a great group of solid people that we would have never known otherwise. Just the tested results of 2230 and 2460 alone submitted to one’s brain are foundational to much learning and proof of same, about the loading of smokeless into cartridges. It’s just joyful to be part of such cadre. Best regards, F01
Couldn't agree more, I appreciate all the great info and the help. I Just fired my first 6 reloaded rounds, and am heading out to do some more radar and group testing in a few minutes. The first 6 hit my intended velocity right off the bat with a starting load of 2015, so now I have to do some accuracy testing with that load, as well as another bullet I picked up. Used Sir Ron's lube technique of 7 cases on the Lyman pad with RCDS2 lube. Worked a treat, and much faster than the Imperial I used on the first batch of cases. That Lee must have been bad or something, never had an issue like that before. I have only used One shot on my 45-70 cases and never had a problem with that either.
When you guys finish resizing, do you prefer to wipe the cases off and drive on, or do you tumble or ultrasound them again before trimming, priming, etc?
Just a thank you to the Knights and our factual and faithful leader Sir Ron for the investment in learning and sharing that goes on here. Because of this tone and timbre, we have met and appreciated a great group of solid people that we would have never known otherwise. Just the tested results of 2230 and 2460 alone submitted to one’s brain are foundational to much learning and proof of same, about the loading of smokeless into cartridges. It’s just joyful to be part of such cadre. Best regards, F01
Couldn't agree more, I appreciate all the great info and the help. I Just fired my first 6 reloaded rounds, and am heading out to do some more radar and group testing in a few minutes. The first 6 hit my intended velocity right off the bat with a starting load of 2015, so now I have to do some accuracy testing with that load, as well as another bullet I picked up. Used Sir Ron's lube technique of 7 cases on the Lyman pad with RCDS2 lube. Worked a treat, and much faster than the Imperial I used on the first batch of cases. That Lee must have been bad or something, never had an issue like that before. I have only used One shot on my 45-70 cases and never had a problem with that either.
When you guys finish resizing, do you prefer to wipe the cases off and drive on, or do you tumble or ultrasound them again before trimming, priming, etc?
I throw them in the a mix of corn/walnut media for about a half hour.Then i remove them from the media with my hands.Very simple.
I can't attach any photos, or I would show you my 50 and 100 yards load development targets. Using a 410g Hornady bullet (strictly a less expensive practice load), I am getting a little over MOA at 100 yards, with all bullets almost touching. AA2015 is giving me a bit over 2100fps with a starting load. Seems like a good cheap practice load. Thanks again to all for the help getting me started on reloading the great 458WM. Now I have to go load some more, lol.
Thank you Swiftshot, I think that is a popular way to do it. I never did get into tumbling as I started with an ultrasonic cleaner. I have used that to remove lube in the past, no problem. For the .458, I am only loading relatively small amounts at a time, so I have been just wiping the cases down. Just curious how others do things.
Thank you Swiftshot, I think that is a popular way to do it. I never did get into tumbling as I started with an ultrasonic cleaner. I have used that to remove lube in the past, no problem. For the .458, I am only loading relatively small amounts at a time, so I have been just wiping the cases down. Just curious how others do things.
Sir Roo, That is good. I wipe with paper towel and shoot'em too, for small batch trial. Aside from the corncob & walnut shell media, I also have the stainless steel pin tumbler using water +/- the capful of brass cleaner additive. That is really spiffy for large batches or small. I reckon Swiftshot is shootaway from the anchor baby site. I am surprised he gave you such sensible advice. Should Swiftshot beg for Four Five Eight Knighthood it will have to be put to a vote requiring majority of The Square Table.
I know a guy who is getting good results in his .243 WCF with Winchester Staball 6.5, close to the 4350's, touted for excellent TBI. I bet you could concoct some nice high recoil, low velocity, heavy bullet loads for the .458 WinMag if you want to burn that powder in it.
I can't attach any photos, or I would show you my 50 and 100 yards load development targets. Using a 410g Hornady bullet (strictly a less expensive practice load), I am getting a little over MOA at 100 yards, with all bullets almost touching. AA2015 is giving me a bit over 2100fps with a starting load. Seems like a good cheap practice load. Thanks again to all for the help getting me started on reloading the great 458WM. Now I have to go load some more, lol.
Sir Roo, Good to hear, but sure wish you would be a little more forthcoming with details on your loads, for the recording of hallowed .458 WinMag data. If you want me to post some photos in a gallery here, send me a PM, and I'll do it for you or moi to post here.
I looked up the Hornady Sub-X bullet. I was ignorant of that development. Subsonic 410-gr/.458-cal cool.
Sir Ron, I apologize, and will add detail for the load tonight when I get home. I have always thought the SS pins were a neat way to clean cases, but I won a smallish ultrasound from Hornady at a match and have just always used that. It probably saves me a step or two compared to the pins, but also probably doesn't do as good a job as the pins.
The StaBall 6.5 seems like a pretty good idea as far as powders go. Don't think I have seen any 458 loads with it, but it looks good for .375H&H. In mediums, I also like 350RM and 9.3X62 and I don't think I have seen it there either. I will admit to not understanding powder very well. Why would a powder be good in a small case like 6.5C, as well as 375 H&H, but not in something like 9.3X62, or 350RM?
Sounds like it would not be good in 458 either, lol. I'm just looking for more universal powders still, as Varget seems to be impossible these days.
Apologies for the dearth of info on my first reload! The load that I have started using for range practice is a 410 grain bullet with a flexible rubber tip. They are bulk packed at Midway, so I'm not sure who makes them, but I think they are Hornady. Federal brass, Fed 215 primer, 68.4g AA2015, loaded to 3.190 COAL. This is listed as a starting load, and I'm averaging 2100fps at the muzzle. The book calls for 3.140 for a 400g bullet and I made this to basically match the COAL of a federal 400g load that I have a little of. I assume (please correct me if I am wrong), that if this was the same bullet as the 400 in the book, that I would be reducing pressure and velocity very slightly by loading it longer than listed. Since this is not the same bullet, I thought that this COAL would either reduce the pressure slightly or maybe equal out given the slight extra weight/length. I prefer not to mess with loading data, and just use it exactly as it is in the book, but since I can't find data for some of the components I have, I did wing it a bit. I also assumed that since this is a starting load, and the pressure is already fairly low, that I would be safe. Seems to be the case.
Sir Roo, Great addition to the armamentarium. Must surely be the Hornady Sub-X, bulk pack of blems. They are available at MidwayUSA. I will have to get some of those.
Surely a tougher bullet than the Sierra 300-gr HP that vaporizes at muzzle exit at 2800 fps. Good for expansion down to 800 fps, designed for 1100 fps MV subsonic use. Would make a good surrogate bullet to test at up to 2500 fps MV on paper targets to save on the Hammers.
Here is another good bullet for pairing with the the 380-gr WFN from Lehigh, Sir Larry's favorite. Both bullets have the same overall length and could be used at same COL, maybe, in SAAMI .458 WM:
I was afraid of that WFN not feeding well but it works fine in my bolt-action rifles including the M70 Super Grade converted to .458 WM+, which still handles SAAMI .458 WM just fine, in its SAAMI .458 WM chamber. Firing SAAMI .458 WM in a SAAMI .458 Lott causes minor technical issues and some loss of performance. Always fun to get a dig in at the .458 Lott pretender.
Sir Ron, I have definitely taken a strong liking to that 380 Lehigh. So far have only fired it in the nemesis of the 458 Winchester. But, it seems to have the potential for accuracy. I will add, the 404 Hammer seems Mighty accurate. Impressive indications when firing slightly different seating depths and various powder charges. More work to be done with it after the MIB laboratory work is complete. I think with The Hammer in the grand ol Winchester, I will be very content with 2375-2400 fps. Especially from 22". I should make a severe impression on any moose or bear from point blank through 200 yards. One has to love the bc and performance. You did well, Very well !!
Sir Larry, I would not settle for anything less than 2400 fps with that 404gr Shock Hammer in your .458 WinMag with 22" barrel. As for the .458 Lott ... ho hum ... heh heh. That Lehigh will work great in .45-70 Gov't. or .458 WinMag at plenty fast speed. Until the Lehigh gains 20 grains of weight: Bubba offers substitutes for the unobtainium 400-gr FN monometal solid in .458 caliber.
Very interesting Sir Ron, to be a fly on the wall of your machine/load shop, LOL!
Shell belt loops loaded tight for ease of extraction, final zeros checked, 458 WM+, 404 Hammer/500gr TBSS at 2500-2300+ fps respectively, old Holland double 500-450 3-1/4" Nitro Express ready with 480gr Hornady DGS/DGX's at 2148 fps over 105gr H-4831, it's a 75gr Cordite rifle, i'm much lower than that with the H-4831 pressures, plus, they'll stay put in all temp extremes.
Shell belt loops loaded tight for ease of extraction, final zeros checked, 458 WM+, 404 Hammer/500gr TBSS at 2500-2300+ fps respectively, old Holland double 500-450 3-1/4" Nitro Express ready with 480gr Hornady DGS/DGX's at 2148 fps over 105gr H-4831, it's a 75gr Cordite rifle, i'm much lower than that with the H-4831 pressures, plus, they'll stay put in all temp extremes.
I wouldn't want to be a fly on the safari tent, prefer to be a bateleur following the action with 8X vision, soaring overhead as the carcasses pile up. Good luck to Sir Jerry.
Good work as usual Sir Ron, i really like the mass that makes up the petals on that Hammer, will really bring the pain at shear and follow through, the shank should exit, LOL on Bateleur, sounds french ; ]
"We will be working on solids soon. They will not be traditional as the traditional thinking is over a hundred years old and flawed. The current Shock Hammers in the 400g class will out perform a solid of the same weight. The Shock Hammers shedding weight will out penetrate a solid of the same weight that does not shed weight due to terminal stability. The solid will turn or tumble sooner inhibiting it's penetration.
There have been more Cape taken than we can keep track of now. I know one individual that has taken around a dozen himself plus his hunting partners taking about the same. These all with Shock Hammers. There is no doubt about the capability of Shock Hammers on dangerous African game.
Brian will be taking a cape in a couple weeks. We have a prototype 303g Shock Hammer in the 416 cal currently ready for the 416 Wby. If we can find time we will do a solid in our current vision. One of these two will get the nod. I really want to get the solid running. We already know the capability of the Shock Hammer design."
And I said this in reply:
Hallelujah !
I'll pass along the info on Cape Buffalo Shock Hammerings to Sir Jerry. He will not feel under gunned with the 404-gr./.458-cal. Shock Hammer at 2500 fps MV.
Will be interesting to see what your design looks like. Until then I ordered a couple of boxes of the 447-gr Shock Hammer for Bubba to "hand-tool" into 405-gr./.458-cal. FN Solid Hammers.
Really now, the facts you are alluding too about the Shock Hammer stubs abilities to penetrate are the very basis for superiority of lighter solids at higher velocity versus the old heavyweights.
So easy to make a 405-gr FN Solid Hammer from this. Even Bubba can do it with a hacksaw, bastard file, and thimble-type case mouth chamfering tool. Take off 40 grains from the HP ogive walls, chamfer 2 grains off the base edge, and shoot it backwards in a pinch. I am sure you can do much better at optimizing the FN solid nose shape than Bubba chamfering bullet bases.
(Brian and Steve are the entrepreneurs creating Hammer Bullets.)
This one is a .500 Bateleur (.510/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved):
My next .458 WM rifle will be similar to this but with iron sights added, and muzzle threading will be for suppressor more so than for brake. The .458 WM is so much easier on my shoulder than a .500 Bateleur. Should be a joy. I will call her New Fugly Joy.
My Bell and Carlson stocks are color-coded. Black with grey webbing for FN Mausers. Red with black webbing for Winchester M70s. Green with black webbing for CZ 550 Magnums, heh heh.
Oh yes, new business. Since elimination of the phrase "buy a donkey" due to the donkey pox endemic in USA government, (fomite is Democrap, fecal oral spread), unintentional association, unfortunate for sure, and since we now have a new totem animal with French name, bateleur:
I hereby move that a new phrase meaning "thank you very much" be accepted for Square Table business. Spoken as Elvis would say it in French: "Mercy bo coop." Will anyone second the motion ?
For a while, I've been wondering which combination of solid bullet weight and velocity from a 458 Win results in maximum bullet penetration. This would represent an inflection point in the graph. Of course, the bullet nose would stay unmolested as the bullet was shortened from the back for each tested weight. How light/fast or slow/heavy of a bullet would be the winner?
Great! a french/african acrobatic eagle LOL, the joined for life deal is cool too, Thanks for the definitions Sir Ron.
And yes on the b.a.d. deal, politicans, liberals, kweers and smart mouthed people RUIN everything they touch, or come in contact with, "Thank You Very Much" is more than fine by me.
Well, Michael458. it was wise of you to not go any higher than 86.0 grains AA-2230.
So I have no need to load to 3.580″, will stick to the 3.480″ max COL loads in the .458 WM-Hammer. The only way I can make sense of the .458 Lott winning by such a large margin, faster and lower pressure with 2 grains more powder at 3.590″ COL, is to think that the extra 0.3″ of brass length swells out to increase the volume of the combustion chamber, to greater effect in the .458 Lott than the effects of the longer throat in the .458 WinMag can allow. Uncle ! Of course there may be differences between the rifle barrels that are more than just length, but I won’t go there.
But wait : Michael458, Does that .458 Lott have the original CIP chamber that actually has a .458 WinMag throat tacked onto the 2.8″ chamber, or is it a standard SAAMI chamber for the .458 Lott with short/tight throat ? When was the rifle made and have you checked it for throat length ? CIP homologated the .458 Lott before SAAMI. After SAAMI homologation, CIP changed to match SAAMI chamber.
(I suspect a long throat on that .458 Lott at MIB.)
The MIB .458 Lott showing surprisingly better results with the 404gr Hammer was built before there was a SAAMI standard for the .458 Lott. Hopefully we will get to some measure of its throat. The 1984 to 2005 era CIP homologation for the .458 Lott gave it a WinMag throat and 2.8" brass. That might beat a WinMag throat with 2.5" brass, you think ?
Amazingly fast service from Montana to Kentucky, on a sample of 447-gr./.458-cal. Shock Hammers. Mercy bo coop to Steve and Brian.
Some musings: About the only way to improve the 405-gr/.458-cal. “Backward Solid” Hammer (my BS Hammer) would be to make the FN meplat 0.300″ diameter inside the edge bevel (about 66% of bullet diameter), stretch the nose forward in length, maybe eliminating the first PDR wave, 6 instead of 7 troughs might do, eliminate hollow in base and shorten the base portion length, making a true flat base. A nose projection of 0.450″ when crimped at centerline of first PDR trough would be perfect for all .45-70 Gov’t. rifles.
For a while, I've been wondering which combination of solid bullet weight and velocity from a 458 Win results in maximum bullet penetration. This would represent an inflection point in the graph. Of course, the bullet nose would stay unmolested as the bullet was shortened from the back for each tested weight. How light/fast or slow/heavy of a bullet would be the winner?
Sir Bevan,
That there is some complex musing, good question.
More weight, more momentum: more penetration. More weight, longer bullet, less stable terminally: less penetration More velocity, more momentum: more penetration. More velocity, greater resistance from reactive/higher order media like game animals/aqueous media: less penetration More velocity: even a brass FN begins to deform when impacting water at 2800 fps: less penetration
I do not have the answer except to go middle of the road with a 400-grainer at 2400 to 2500 fps. Maybe refer to BULLET PENETRATION by Duncan MacPherson. My next homework assignment ... I refuse to try calculus after all these years, and just can't do all the experimental shooting required for an answer just yet, heh heh.
Starting with that TBSH 500-gr FN and filing it down to lighter weights would be a start ... The 500-gr and 450-gr Barnes Banded Solids, then filed down to 400-grains by Bubba ... loading them all to equal momentum levels ...
Sir Jerry, May the bateleur be the omen of good luck for your .458 WM+. Keep count of how many times you spot one watching you from the sky. Break a leg ! Anticipating your bon voyage is killing me.
For a while, I've been wondering which combination of solid bullet weight and velocity from a 458 Win results in maximum bullet penetration. This would represent an inflection point in the graph. Of course, the bullet nose would stay unmolested as the bullet was shortened from the back for each tested weight. How light/fast or slow/heavy of a bullet would be the winner?
Sir Bevan,
That there is some complex musing, good question.
More weight, more momentum: more penetration. More weight, longer bullet, less stable terminally: less penetration More velocity, more momentum: more penetration. More velocity, greater resistance from reactive/higher order media like game animals/aqueous media: less penetration More velocity: even a brass FN begins to deform when impacting water at 2800 fps: less penetration
I do not have the answer except to go middle of the road with a 400-grainer at 2400 to 2500 fps. Maybe refer to BULLET PENETRATION by Duncan MacPherson. My next homework assignment ... I refuse to try calculus after all these years, and just can't do all the experimental shooting required for an answer just yet, heh heh.
Starting with that TBSH 500-gr FN and filing it down to lighter weights would be a start ... The 500-gr and 450-gr Barnes Banded Solids, then filed down to 400-grains by Bubba ... loading them all to equal momentum levels ...
Sir Ron,
Loading to equal momentum levels--that's it. Eliminating that variable in testing is the way to begin. Thank you.
Thanks to Sir Ron, I've now converted my New Haven M70 to a .458WM+. I've been wanting to do this for a long time, and with Sir Ron's coaching on this thread, I got it completed. Also, previous to this and years ago, in correspondence with Sir Bob, I wondered about getting a .458 Lott, and his response was to instead, get a .458 WM and load long since it had a better throat. Standing on the shoulders of giants...
This is the new magazine box:
After popping out the rear spacer with a wood chisel, it looks like this compared to the original box:
The new, shorter ejector compared to the original, longer ejector:
The new, shorter bolt stop compared to the original, longer bolt stop.
Finally, look at how much more space is now available! For common reference, the cartridges are vintage Remington 510 SP ammo.
Very interesting Sir Ron, to be a fly on the wall of your machine/load shop, LOL!
Shell belt loops loaded tight for ease of extraction, final zeros checked, 458 WM+, 404 Hammer/500gr TBSS at 2500-2300+ fps respectively, old Holland double 500-450 3-1/4" Nitro Express ready with 480gr Hornady DGS/DGX's at 2148 fps over 105gr H-4831, it's a 75gr Cordite rifle, i'm much lower than that with the H-4831 pressures, plus, they'll stay put in all temp extremes.
Sir, are you certain your Royal 500/450 is a 75gr Cordite rifle? I haven't seen one that is, and mine is a 70gr Tropical Load rifle (delivered 1906), as was TR's.
Sir Jerry, May the bateleur be the omen of good luck for your .458 WM+. Keep count of how many times you spot one watching you from the sky. Break a leg ! Anticipating your bon voyage is killing me.
Will do Sir Ron, and Thank You very much, put in 18 hours syesterday getting work done, plus any work i can do in advance, like the 20 quarts of venison little Wife canned last weekend, the toil wont spoil!
BCElliot, that conversion looks great, hope you get her set and running like a greased glass rod, very easy to do to utilize the full length factory chamber of the 458 WM+, enjoy, it's a blast.
Very interesting Sir Ron, to be a fly on the wall of your machine/load shop, LOL!
Shell belt loops loaded tight for ease of extraction, final zeros checked, 458 WM+, 404 Hammer/500gr TBSS at 2500-2300+ fps respectively, old Holland double 500-450 3-1/4" Nitro Express ready with 480gr Hornady DGS/DGX's at 2148 fps over 105gr H-4831, it's a 75gr Cordite rifle, i'm much lower than that with the H-4831 pressures, plus, they'll stay put in all temp extremes.
Sir, are you certain your Royal 500/450 is a 75gr Cordite rifle? I haven't seen one that is, and mine is a 70gr Tropical Load rifle (delivered 1906), as was TR's.
How does that load regulate?
Thanks, Chris
Hello Chris, You Sir are exactly right, i had to go look and refresh my memory, my rifle and TR's are only a few numbers apart on the serial numbers, a few ones, nines and a zero LOL, i'm getting the rifles i have looked at mixed up with mine, one in particualr is a 450 #2 Nitro Express George out at Champlins has for sale now, it's an 85gr Cordite rifle.
The load shoots to beautiful regulation at 65 yards, i would add powder and shoot till both barrels came to snake eyes at that range, for example, if a right barrel is printing high and right, it's going to slow, then tested both barrels with all solids, then all softs in both barrels, great setup and plenty accurate for double rifle ranges, the extra 48 fps over the stated 2100 fps for 480gr max 70gr Cordite rifles may be due to my rifle having 26" barrels.
It's the only rifle i've ever owned that looks like it's traveling 100 MPH sitting on a table, those Brits knew what they were doing there.
In any case, the H-4831 will yield much lower chamber pressures, i wore an ammo belt loaded with cartridges around the farm one day with a rec'd charge of 70gr 3031 and 3gr pufflon, looks like a cotton ball, that said and before dinner that day, i could shake the contents inside the case, the pufflon had let go and the powder was no longer being held against the primer, pulled the bullets, dumped the powder and worked up loads with H-4831, fills the case nicely, and keeps the powder where it should be, against the primer, i couldn't imagine being on Safari and having the ammo fall apart on the inside like that, a hangfire disaster waiting to happen, i use H-4350 and H-4831 in all my doubles save for one little 303 British double, it runs nicely on RL-15.
Thank you Sir. I will try that. Best To date I have run RE15 and Kynoch wads in that and a nice 500 3 1/4” Royal Dlx Ejector I used to own. I use same powder in the 375 H&H Flanged Barrels (by H&H) that go with the 500/450.
I found H4350 wasn’t giving me the correct velocity for the load/pressure, I think pressure was too low for the velocity, but that’s another story!
My 500/450 is close to 50 below TR’s, and my 500 3 1/4” was four below that.
BCElliot, that conversion looks great, hope you get her set and running like a greased glass rod, very easy to do to utilize the full length factory chamber of the 458 WM+, enjoy, it's a blast.
Nitro Express load data always welcome. I used RL-15 with filler for a while in a .470 NE Merkel, but found I liked H4831 better in that one too. If doing it again with a foam wad filler I would use Varget, about grain-for-grain same as RL-15, but better temperature stability and less lot-to-lot variation.
Yes indeed, Sir Bevan, great work. When I did mine, I had to get a third hand to tap the final roll pin back in while I held the parts and the punch. My wife has now done some gunsmithing with a little brass hammer.
I have appropriated and labeled your excellent images, for the Square Table:
Homework assignment completed, book report on Duncan MacPherson's BULLET PENETRATION. Excerpts below for book review: Excellent book. Some notes by me are inserted.
The truncated-cone nose shape was best penetrator in the handgun bullets, by a small margin.
Nitro Express load data always welcome. I used RL-15 with filler for a while in a .470 NE Merkel, but found I liked H4831 better in that one too. If doing it again with a foam wad filler I would use Varget, about grain-for-grain same as RL-15, but better temperature stability and less lot-to-lot variation.
Thank you Sir. I shall load some of Sir Gerry’s big medicine and look forward to doing so.
Thank you Sir. I will try that. Best To date I have run RE15 and Kynoch wads in that and a nice 500 3 1/4” Royal Dlx Ejector I used to own. I use same powder in the 375 H&H Flanged Barrels (by H&H) that go with the 500/450.
I found H4350 wasn’t giving me the correct velocity for the load/pressure, I think pressure was too low for the velocity, but that’s another story!
My 500/450 is close to 50 below TR’s, and my 500 3 1/4” was four below that.
Happy hunting!
Hello Chris, you're most welcome, and Thanks You too Sir, i use H-4350 in 500 and 577 Nitro doubles only, it regulates the 570gr TSx and Banded solids to a beautiful 2168 fps in the 500, and a Buffalo and Hippo smashing 2076 fps in the 577, both rifles have 26" barrels, went with H-4831 in the 500-450 because of it being a bottleneck cartridge, you're going to smile big when you hear the thunderous BOOM it lets off at firing, my Wife calls my Holland "Big Thunder" LOL.
Speaking of bottlenecks and wads, i had reserves in doing so as i couldn't figure how the wad would handle the neck juncture of the case, while easily understanding how easy wads work in straight walled hulls, a half inch wad tucked neatly in a 458 neck may indeed hold the powder down just fine, i just wondered about pressure spikes at the "draw down" area of case body to neck to exiting the cartridge hull, no worries at all with H-4831, it carries nice warm pressure [read low] all the way down the barrels, i like the even barrel warming temp with hand wrapped around barrels, guess i'm trying to say i sure like "even smooth" Sir.
Sir Jerry, Good Luck, on your Safari!!! God Bless you and your Wifie! , and Team!!!
Thanks Sir Tony, it's going to be a blast, done quick drill with Wife again yesterday evening, she insists on tracking buffalo and other dangerous game with me, my only order to her is to stay on my back like a little monkey in the event of a rodeo, i need to know where she is, she grabs those long linear muscles we have running down our sides under arm pits and hangs on with arms outstretched, i know which way i'm going to move long before she does, try as i might, i cant outstep/fake her out, i guess a 122lb chicken that can run 26 miles in a marathon is laughing inside at an old man still trying to move!
BCElliot, that conversion looks great, hope you get her set and running like a greased glass rod, very easy to do to utilize the full length factory chamber of the 458 WM+, enjoy, it's a blast.
Nitro Express load data always welcome. I used RL-15 with filler for a while in a .470 NE Merkel, but found I liked H4831 better in that one too. If doing it again with a foam wad filler I would use Varget, about grain-for-grain same as RL-15, but better temperature stability and less lot-to-lot variation.
Well Thank You Sir Ron, expecially any NE load data for 458 cals ; ]
If the guys at Hammer get around to making you up a solid, a 458 cal flat, or cup nose at around 405gr would be absolute perfection, they make a little cup nosed 137? gr bullet in 9mm, that little booger would be a barrier hole drilling bone breaking exiting all vitals for sure and certain on two legger felons hellbent for a new air conditioned bed that slides in the wall down at the coroners office.
Sir Jerry, Good point. Pun intended, on the cup point. Since CEB is doing a longer-nosed 400-gr FN solid in brass, a 400-ish grain "Claw Hammer" with shallow cup point might be the better request for Hammer.
Nitro Express load data always welcome. I used RL-15 with filler for a while in a .470 NE Merkel, but found I liked H4831 better in that one too. If doing it again with a foam wad filler I would use Varget, about grain-for-grain same as RL-15, but better temperature stability and less lot-to-lot variation.
Well Thank You Sir Ron, expecially any NE load data for 458 cals ; ]
If the guys at Hammer get around to making you up a solid, a 458 cal flat, or cup nose at around 405gr would be absolute perfection, they make a little cup nosed 137? gr bullet in 9mm, that little booger would be a barrier hole drilling bone breaking exiting all vitals for sure and certain on two legger felons hellbent for a new air conditioned bed that slides in the wall down at the coroners office.
3.580" COL with the 500-gr TSX is nowhere near max for a .458 WM+ load in a Ruger No. 1 or CZ 550 Magnum, etc. Could go to 3.780" in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber. The SAAMI .458 Lott chamber cannot do that.
Excellent 400-gr Swift loads at 3.262" COL. Remember to add at least 72 fps to correct the 20"-barrel velocity to 24"-barrel length.
AA-2230 is just too slow for the 350-gr TSX at 3.230" COL. H4198 is where it is at with that bullet, and longer COL in a .458 WM+ load.
"Remember to add at least 72 fps to correct the 20"-barrel velocity to 24"-barrel length". I typically add 100 fps as an average. Not that I've had a 20" .458 WM, but largely based on experiences of two distinct Marlins in .45-70:several in 22" and one in the 18.5" GG. When pushed to the limit (probably over 40,000 psi), but safe in my rifles, the 22" would give ~2120 fps from the 405 Rem, and the 18.5" barely made it over the ~2000 fps mark. A loss of about 100 fps from a 3.5" shorter barrel.
I don't have as much to add as you guys do, but I have been steadily shooting my 458 Blaser and it is only getting better. My Mauser needs to go to the smith for a little cleaning up, and then it will be shot more as well.
I like a short LOP on my rifles, and the Blaser chassis/stock I have it in right now goes 13". I let a friend shoot it yesterday, and did not give any instruction, as he has shot that Blaser stock before, and he has a 416 Rigby of his own. We have shot big bore rifles together a few times, from 404's to 470NE's. Well, that was a mistake as he scoped himself something fierce. Both his forehead and the bridge of his nose were cut up and bleeding a fair bit. I felt terrible about it and will make sure to caution people in the future, regardless of what shooting experience they have. We were shooting federal 500g Swift A-frames, which I think of as pretty pleasant loads, but lesson learned! He handled it well, and still shot two more rounds after that, all in a tight group.
"Remember to add at least 72 fps to correct the 20"-barrel velocity to 24"-barrel length". I typically add 100 fps as an average. Not that I've had a 20" .458 WM, but largely based on experiences of two distinct Marlins in .45-70:several in 22" and one in the 18.5" GG. When pushed to the limit (probably over 40,000 psi), but safe in my rifles, the 22" would give ~2120 fps from the 405 Rem, and the 18.5" barely made it over the ~2000 fps mark. A loss of about 100 fps from a 3.5" shorter barrel.
Sir Bob, I do not doubt your finding. Below 20" barrel length, a lot more is lost per inch subtracted. Above 24" barrel length, a lot less is gained per inch added. Bullet weight versus powder burn rate is mostly a wash.
good day RIP, hey going to Africa next June and will be shooting the 404 Hammers for Buff but was thinking about using their 300 grain Hammer bullet for Zebra and Kudu out to about 200-250 yards and wonder what AA2230 weight charge I should start at? I have not shot the Hammers yet but was using 79 gr of 2230 for the Hornaday 350 but would like to get the Hammers up to about 2700-2800 fps, what do you think. thanks Jim, buy a donkay
good day RIP, hey going to Africa next June and will be shooting the 404 Hammers for Buff but was thinking about using their 300 grain Hammer bullet for Zebra and Kudu out to about 200-250 yards and wonder what AA2230 weight charge I should start at? I have not shot the Hammers yet but was using 79 gr of 2230 for the Hornaday 350 but would like to get the Hammers up to about 2700-2800 fps, what do you think. thanks Jim, buy a donkay
I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead if 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same brass
For the lighter bullets I think a faster powder is needed
good day RIP, hey going to Africa next June and will be shooting the 404 Hammers for Buff but was thinking about using their 300 grain Hammer bullet for Zebra and Kudu out to about 200-250 yards and wonder what AA2230 weight charge I should start at? I have not shot the Hammers yet but was using 79 gr of 2230 for the Hornaday 350 but would like to get the Hammers up to about 2700-2800 fps, what do you think. thanks Jim, buy a donkay
Hydehunter, Have you not chosen your Sir Name for the roll to be called of Knights of the Four Five Eight at the Square Table ?
As Sir John has stated, AA-2230 may be too slow to get you to 2700 to 2800 fps with the 300-grainers. I do not go there without H4198 Extreme. Hope you can find that powder. But I would prefer to use the 404gr Shock Hammer for buffalo and plains game. Compare:
The 300-gr TSX at COL of 3.330" from a 25" Shilen barrel at 72*F: Hornady brass case F-215 primer H4198 78.0 grains >>> 2790 fps at 5 yards, 2810 fps MV (G1 BC 0.230) H4198 79.0 grains >>> 2831 fps at 5 yards, 2851 fps MV (G1 BC 0.230)
While we are showing and telling of Hammers, here is the "Jack Hammer" Sir Jerry told of, a cup point:
Seems the shallower cup point is called a "Claw Hammer" as with these:
To make the .44-40 WCF a better winner of the west:
And here is a .416-caliber Claw Hammer:
Scale that up to .458-caliber and shorten and flatten the base to make 400-ish-grains weight. Wouldn't a 400-grain/.458-caliber Claw Hammer be nice in a .458 WinMag ?
well RIP, how does Sir James work out? have been working with my CZ550 for the last couple of years. was looking at the 300 gr as it looks to be flatter shooting at 200-250 yards but I do like the the 404 shock hammer and talked about it with Steve on our trip to Africa this last April and will be ordering some when he gets back next month
I agree with Sir Ron that the best powder for both the 300 and 350 TSX's is H4198, so also for the 300 Shock Hammer. IMR 4198 is NOT an equivalent powder.
In my 24" Ruger 1H, I was able to safely attain up to 2980 fps from the 300 TSX, and into very tight and consistent 3-shot groups at 100 yds. And, from the same H4198, 2780 fps from the 350 TSX shot into sub-MOA. I'm not authorising psi, but those appeared completely safe in my rifle, and I wouldn't shun from using them in the field. In fact, the 300 TSX became one of my all-time favorites from that rifle. Alas, I shot them all up in load development and practice.
However, agreed that the 400 Shock Hammer is preferred as an "all-rounder".
well RIP, how does Sir James work out? have been working with my CZ550 for the last couple of years. was looking at the 300 gr as it looks to be flatter shooting at 200-250 yards but I do like the the 404 shock hammer and talked about it with Steve on our trip to Africa this last April and will be ordering some when he gets back next month
Sir James it is then. Sir Saint James Watts will have to stick to his triple moniker Sir Name. Good to hear you are infiltrating the Hammer crew by going on safari with them. There is an idea for more chances to pester for the 400gr Claw Hammer, heh heh.
I agree with Sir Ron that the best powder for both the 300 and 350 TSX's is H4198, so also for the 300 Shock Hammer. IMR 4198 is NOT an equivalent powder.
In my 24" Ruger 1H, I was able to safely attain up to 2980 fps from the 300 TSX, and into very tight and consistent 3-shot groups at 100 yds. And, from the same H4198, 2780 fps from the 350 TSX shot into sub-MOA. I'm not authorising psi, but those appeared completely safe in my rifle, and I wouldn't shun from using them in the field. In fact, the 300 TSX became one of my all-time favorites from that rifle. Alas, I shot them all up in load development and practice.
However, agreed that the 400 Shock Hammer is preferred as an "all-rounder".
Sir Bob, Ditto all the above including a double-ditto for emphasis on the H4198 over IMR-4198. RL-7 might do it too, only with more lot-to-lot variation and more temperature sensitivity/instability than with good ol' H4198.
We are working on a unified field theory of hunting ballistics. It all comes together in the 400- to 405-grain .458-caliber bullet at 2400 to 2500 fps. Requires three legs on the tripod to determine the plane of the seat of common sense. No fancy extra-dimensional hocus pocus. First Leg: 404-gr copper Shock Hammer from Hammer Bullets: It's done Second Leg: 400-gr brass FN "Safari Solid" from Cutting Edge Bullets: It's out for delivery to MIB. Third Leg: 400-ish-gr cup point from Hammer or CEB: Still at the begging stage for this one.
Word from MIB is that AA-2230 is available from MidwayUSA in 1-pounders and 8-pounders. That is a good sign in this Let's Go Brandon economy. Get it while it lasts.
with 400-405g bullets, 2230 seems to give slightly lower pressures for the velocity than 2015, with slightly more powder. Does the difference between the two matter in any way?
Loaded some Hornady 480 grain flat point solid with a lightly compressed load of AA2230 will scope the 458 and sight in at 💯 yards and accuracy test at 💯 yards
with 400-405g bullets, 2230 seems to give slightly lower pressures for the velocity than 2015, with slightly more powder. Does the difference between the two matter in any way?
Sir Roo, Your call. With AA-2230 you get better temperature insensitivity as well as higher velocity and lower pressure without the compression of AA-2015. The post 2016 lots of AA-2230 have seemed to be quite uniform in their properties, consistent with the above. AA-2460 and AA-2230 were supposedly reformulated for 2016 for better ThermoBallistic Independence.
Loaded some Hornady 480 grain flat point solid with a lightly compressed load of AA2230 will scope the 458 and sight in at 💯 yards and accuracy test at 💯 yards
Great, Sir John. Will look back and see if I ever did that to compare notes.
Any preferences between IMR 4198 and AA2230? Higher velocity with 2230, lower pressure and less powder with 4198.
Depends on bullet weight 400 grains and up AA2230, 350 and 300 grains H-419>
Sir Roo, Sir John gives good advice. Sure you can use H4198 with 400-grainers, but you will get higher pressure (not lower) with less powder, and might blow a gasket trying to get same velocity as with AA-2230. If you want about 100 fps slower, with less powder, less recoil, and excellent results otherwise, use the H4198.
Reviewing my 480-gr DGX-Bonded loads with AA-2230 and AA-2460, I found something I never explained. 78.3 grains of AA-2230 gave about same results as 77.0 grains of AA-2460. Same rifle, and all other specifics same except negligible temperature difference. Seems to indicate AA-2460 is not a tad slower than AA-2230. Stay tuned:
I like to see .458" holes like that! And I've seen a few from my .45-70s and .458s! And the 480 DGX is one of the best! I couldn't find more in these parts, so came home with a box of the 500 DGX's. Have yet to fire one of those. I think the DGX is a great bullet for mega fauna, but slow them down and they'll work too. Penetration was awesome in tough media.
How many of you guys use your 458 for basically everything? How many use it just for specialized hunts?
I want to use it for more than just DG, and will use it for deer this year, but I also use a 6# 308 for most of my hunts which are on foot and involve packing out the animal.
My 458 is used for whitetail every year and I’m a still hunter in the Great Plains prairie. I use a jet sled for solo retrieval nowadays. I have put a few in the backpack in doe season by boning them out.
Very cool! I have used a Jet Sled for winter packing, but not on the Prairie where I hunted for years. I do bone them out (gutless method) and then carry them in my pack. I just don't want to leave them on the ground, walk back to the truck, then walk back to the animal with the sled. My 458's are a bit heavy for how I like to hunt out west, but for still hunting or stand hunting on my property in the mid-west, no problem.
Hunting alone I have left the sled in the truck and I have staged it at the morning sit spot. I sit on the ground, never in a tree. I understand the value of a tree stand, just not my thing. I have shot a lot of deer and elk off the canyon rims of my home state of CO so I understand the value of elevation but just don't like tree sitting. I hunt in heavy cover and open prairie. With the 458wm and Cast bullets, there are some shots I would pass up that I would make with my '06 or 260 Remington but I carry the 458WM on it's full share of days. Last year it only needed one day to fill my buck tag so... can't complain about that. I also shoot sitting over sticks a lot and with that setup, I have no problem with a 250 yard shot with the Whitworth. 250 yards covers a lot of deer killing country. My dad killed a lot of deer with Iron sighted 30-30 and 32 Win Specials so I have that plus a scope to work with. Not a problem in my book. I really need to use my old man's rifle, the 260 Remington more but the 458WM weeps in the closet if I don't take her out. I have near a 1000 cast bullets to use up so I'll just keep proving the 458WM can do it all. Don't really care if anyone other than the Round/Square table agrees with me or not. I'm happy. She's happy. Good hunting to you sir, F01
Your hunting sounds a lot like my hunting. Can't stand blinds, treestands, etc. and prefer to hunt on foot, on the ground. I will set up at the base of a tree or something and stand hunt for a bit, but the modern stuff is not for me. My first deer was actually taken while I was standing, hoping to see one on a trail I found. 1911/.45 one shot dropped her on the move at 13 yards. I'm looking forward to hunting with the great 458 this year, good luck to you as well! Hopefully we will all have a good time and pics of nice meat to show for it.
Sir Jerry has reported on some deer hunting Tuesday with his .458 WM+. The man has class.
"Trail through girls bedroom on the way to clearcut where I caught them shopping. Even the buzzards know a man carrying a .458 WM+ will have gut piles soon to follow. These birds were rewarded with three such piles today."
Sir Jerry has reported on some deer hunting Tuesday with his .458 WM+. The man has class.
"Trail through girls bedroom on the way to clearcut where I caught them shopping. Even the buzzards know a man carrying a .458 WM+ will have gut piles soon to follow. These birds were rewarded with three such piles today."
Here you go SLGPT
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Three 450-gr TSX bullets at +2400 fps MV, three dead deer, three exit wounds:
First deer seems to have been hit at left forward ribcage and bullet made exit on right flank rearward:
Exit wound zoomed in, actually looks to be shaped like the frontal view of four-petal TSX expansion star:
Sir Jerry will have to correct any misinterpretations by me, supply the range-of-impact, and add any other pertinent points.
The second deer has a bigger exit wound, on shoulder I presume, and that might be some shoulder bone exit effects too:
The third deer moved as the trigger broke and looks like it nearly got cut in half, maybe the bullet motivated a big chunk of spine toward exit:
Entry points and range of impact would be interesting to know. I guess all the entry wounds look the same, about caliber size, tidy holes in hide, like the one on the deer I clobbered with a Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX at about 2350 fps MV.
The 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps of Sir Jerry's handload will expand better than a lesser sectional density bullet of same velocity. Even mo'better if both heavier for caliber AND faster at impact and same TSX-type HP.
Sir Jerry, Good point. Pun intended, on the cup point. Since CEB is doing a longer-nosed 400-gr FN solid in brass, a 400-ish grain "Claw Hammer" with shallow cup point might be the better request for Hammer.
It will be a World Star straight line penetrator Sir Ron, straight and DEEP ; ]
I'm with both of you guys on that F01, i had a beautiful black bear at 14 yards on the ground last year with my Dan Toelke Montana Whip longbow, it was the coolest thing ever, cant believe he didnt hear my heart pounding, i could hear him breathing, he looked past me a half dozen times, never directly in the eyes, but knew i was there, you see, he lives just over a barbed wire fence on the mountain behind the house, doesnt bother new calves or anything, i wasnt going to arrow him for his coat, it was one of the coolest things i've ever experienced.
Yes, i had a 45 ACP with 200gr Lehigh penetrators on my belt, but still plenty spooky LOL!
Good show Sir Jerry. For Sir Roo, take note. If you want light rifle carry, here is as light as I like to go in a .458 WM:
Marcella is an M70 .416 RemMag action re-barreled to .458 WM with a No. 4 sporter contour McGowen of true .458" groove, cut down from 26" to 23" at the muzzle end of the barrel blank. It is almost as fast as a 25" Shilen which has closer to 0.459" groove. 400-grainers at +2500 fps was no problemo in either barrel, with AA-2230. This will be my deer rifle this year, with the 404-gr. Shock Hammer at 3.480" COL. But I will add the weight of a scope and more:
The 400-gr GSC HV handload was at + 2500 fps from the Shilen. Same rifle did about 2350 fps with the Buffalo Bore factory loaded 400-gr TSX. Both killed deer with results similar to Sir Jerry's illustration.
This one needs some accessories added to it for extra weight:
Same as the CIP homologated .45-70 Elko Magnum, with Starline brass for .45-2.6" it is 2 grains H2O bigger than the .458 WM. The slow twist comes from re-chambering a .45-70 Gov't., and note that Ruger makes those with the same groove diameter as their faster-twist .458 WM barrels, even though SAAMI minimum is 0.456" for .45-70 Gov't.
Nicely set up guns, no doubt! My Interarms goes to the gunsmith next week. Can't wait to get it back and compare shooting it to the Blaser in a more balanced way.
Good luck to your really good rifle (Mk X Mauser .458 WinMag) going to the gunsmith. You will probably put the Blaser away for keeps after your first shot with the Mauser.
Great news from South Carolina. A shipment arrived from Idaho. Waiting for a care package to Kentucky now.
There seem to be some subtle differences in the band structure with this new 400-grainer, much more than the obvious, at-first-glance appearance comparison with any of the other BBW#13 .458-caliber solids picture above, and it’S ALL GOOD MAN !
Actually looks like the major and minor diameters of the new 400-grainer have a lesser spread. This allows the 400-grainer to be shorter for weight. That won't hurt stability. I will put calipers to it when I can. Michael McCourry of MIB in SC might do it before I do.
I might even be able to load the new bullet "one-band deep" for Longer COL, .458 WM+, meaning base band only inside case, maybe with or without a paper patch between base band and third band on the shank, heh, heh (insert Bevis and Butthead sound effect here).
Those look so good! I wonder which of the Safari Solids (325, 400, 450 grain) will penetrate the deepest at close range when momentum is held constant.
Take it as a joke, of course. There are many of us who enjoy teasing Blaser owners. You do get forgiveness points for having a .458 WM barrel on your Blaser.
Those look so good! I wonder which of the Safari Solids (325, 400, 450 grain) will penetrate the deepest at close range when momentum is held constant.
Sir Bevan, That 400-gr Safari Solid looks like a contender for sure. We expect to see some tests from MIB on all those CEB brass FN solid bullets, as well as the Lehigh 380-gr WFN copper solid. I cannot do any better than Doc M at MIB, will see what paces he puts them through. When I get some of those 400-grainers I will load it longer than he shows here:
Load data with pressures should be first to arrive from MIB. Penetration tests will come later. keep in mind that net case capacities of the .458 B&M and the .458 WM are the same when COL is +0.260" for the .458 WM. A 3.00" COL with .458 B&M is equivalent to 3.26" COL with the .458 WM. Is the shorter and fatter B&M more efficient than the WM ? Maybe. Does the longer throat of the WM give it an advantage over the B&M ? Yes. Is the .458 Lott being used at MIB a long-throated, pre-SAAMI version ? Probably so. That is the only way it can do higher velocity at lower pressure than the .458 WM in some of the MIB data. All load data should be taken with a grain of saltpeter. That last line was a joke, just like a Blaser meme. This is a seriously good use for a Blaser R8:
You'll be on fire with those new 400gr solids Sir Ron, good stuff man, speaking of good stuff, i sent one of your 404gr Hammers at 2500+ fps to the 300 yard gong after wearing out conformation targets from 50 to 250 yards, +2.5" @100 zeros dead on at 200 yards, exactly -10" at 300, bullet still trucking along at 1950+ fps at the 300 yard line, dont know Hammers minimum bullet velocity for expansion but i believe i'm gold at 1950 and maybe a good bit less.
I held 10 inches into around an 8-12 mph East wind shooting dew North, bullet landed about 2 inches left of dead center, seems Hammers estimated b.c. of .41 is pretty accurate, especially so here at 555 ft. elevation, that combo is a hammer that still packed enough freight to knock the holy dog crap out of that 300 yard steel, a lot of momentum left in reserve, i'll find a big buffalo if one's there and we shall see what it does on the real thing ; ]
You'll be on fire with those new 400gr solids Sir Ron, good stuff man, speaking of good stuff, i sent one of your 404gr Hammers at 2500+ fps to the 300 yard gong after wearing out conformation targets from 50 to 250 yards, +2.5" @100 zeros dead on at 200 yards, exactly -10" at 300, bullet still trucking along at 1950+ fps at the 300 yard line, dont know Hammers minimum bullet velocity for expansion but i believe i'm gold at 1950 and maybe a good bit less.
I held 10 inches into around an 8-12 mph East wind shooting dew North, bullet landed about 2 inches left of dead center, seems Hammers estimated b.c. of .41 is pretty accurate, especially so here at 555 ft. elevation, that combo is a hammer that still packed enough freight to knock the holy dog crap out of that 300 yard steel, a lot of momentum left in reserve, i'll find a big buffalo if one's there and we shall see what it does on the real thing ; ]
I figured as much since you had mentioned that you had no experience with the Blaser rifle, but thought I should ask anyway. The Blaser can be very polarizing.
You'll be on fire with those new 400gr solids Sir Ron, good stuff man, speaking of good stuff, i sent one of your 404gr Hammers at 2500+ fps to the 300 yard gong after wearing out conformation targets from 50 to 250 yards, +2.5" @100 zeros dead on at 200 yards, exactly -10" at 300, bullet still trucking along at 1950+ fps at the 300 yard line, dont know Hammers minimum bullet velocity for expansion but i believe i'm gold at 1950 and maybe a good bit less.
I held 10 inches into around an 8-12 mph East wind shooting dew North, bullet landed about 2 inches left of dead center, seems Hammers estimated b.c. of .41 is pretty accurate, especially so here at 555 ft. elevation, that combo is a hammer that still packed enough freight to knock the holy dog crap out of that 300 yard steel, a lot of momentum left in reserve, i'll find a big buffalo if one's there and we shall see what it does on the real thing ; ]
Great info ✔️👍
Yep, take note. Sir Jerry is the "Talent" or exhibition shooter for the .458 WM+. He is the pro bono hired gun. He works gratis for the common good.
Just think of all of them being the size of a baseball, about 3" diameter, at the center of the brain location, and be able to hit it offhand at 50 yards. Avoid horns on buffalo. A buffalo brain is about 6" wide and long and only about 3" tall. Kind of a flat pattycake shape, squeezed in under those horn bosses. Hippo and lion brains are more oblong but the baseball size will work on them too. Heck, even works on an elephant, just imagine a baseball at the center of a huge loaf of wide-pan bread, but go for center, aim small miss small. Now get out your copy of THE PERFECT SHOT and study brain location, Sir Roo.
"Yellowstone" Prequel called "1883" ... Just finished watching the TV series "1883" and was shocked to see that a starring rifle in that show was a Winchester 1885 High Wall being fired by the hero and heroine during the year 1883. John Moses Browning designed the prototype in 1878, in Utah, and Winchester bought the design from him in 1883, made some improvements, and released it in 1885. That is how I understand it. I bet our hero from Tennessee got an original John Moses Browning 1878 rifle out of Utah. Somehow he had one when he set out for Oregon in 1883. That would make for a good fictional adventure in itself, for gunnuts. Eh ? Otherwise, I am calling "blooper."
Another tiny blooper in the show is that Starline brass was shown in closeup of headstamp on .44 WCF ammo that our hero bought in a Commanche camp. The ammo box itself might have been correct, but I gotta check "The Book" on that.
The puny ballistics of the .44 WCF from rifles and revolvers on that show must be why so many of the fictional characters survived their gunshot wounds. Gotta say no human, deer or elk survived a hit from the High Wall in that fiction. That rifle looked to be .45-cal. from the muzzle hole glimpses. Shades of the .458 WinMag Superiority.
Thank you Sir Ron. No anatomy studying needed just yet, as no brains are being injured at this time. Just curious for some drills I'm running with the big rifle. I had previously been told 6" for a Buff brain, maybe I assumed it was more circular, rather than 6X3.
Thank you Sir Ron. No anatomy studying needed just yet, as no brains are being injured at this time. Just curious for some drills I'm running with the big rifle. I had previously been told 6" for a Buff brain, maybe I assumed it was more circular, rather than 6X3.
Sir Roo, Look at the thickness of bone and horn protecting the cape buffalo brain:
The 400-gr #13 FN from CEB has been test-fired in the .458 WM and .458 B&M. Note the COL used for the .458 WM was only 3.185". The COL used for the .458 B&M was not revealed. If 3.185" is possible with 1 band out of case, as Doc M specified with the .458 WM, then with 2 bands out of the case a COL of 3.285" should be the ideal loading length for the .458 WM.
Comparing the .458 WM to the .458 B&M, both with 20" barrel, using 400-gr CEB #13 FN:
I proposed to load the .458 WM to COL 3.340" or even 3.350" with the 400-gr CEB #13 FN:
Got the 400-gr #13 early today and just finished Old Lady Duties. Then ran to local emporium to buy ammo boxes to house the precious gems. The ones for .45 LC work nicely.
A .458 B&M 2.240″ case made by Quality Cartridge or from RUM brass has same capacity as Hornady or W-W or R-P .458 WM brass at 2.500″. They are all about 95.0 grains gross H2O when once-fired and not-resized, at those lengths respectively. It’s almost like somebody planned it that way ! Use the Norma brass at 2.500″ and the .458 WM is a few grains bigger than the .458 B&M 2.240″ (Qual Cart or RUM). Maybe Norma-based .458 B&M brings that back to parity ? Case capacity should be considered to be identical if BLM (Brass Loaded Matters) parity is practiced. Any internal ballistic differences between the two carts will be due to more efficient case shape of .458 B&M versus longer throat of the .458 WM. I think we could home-cook loads to favor either one of them, HEH HEH.
My .458 B&M with a .458 WM throat can handle 3.340″ COL and is exactly identical to a .458 WM with 3.600″ COL for net case capacity, with a long enough bullet to do that. That is 1.100″ nose projection for both, not coincidentally ! Both will beat a SAAMI .458 Lott at 3.600″ COL.
I will get dummied up shortly to see if equivalent case capacity loads can be made for the .458 B&M and .458 WM using the 400-gr #13 and the existing bands. Knowing the COLs used for the .458 B&M pressure data would help in comparing it to the .458 WM. Just eye-balling, it looks like 0.650″ and 0.750″ projection are possible with one band and two bands ahead of the case mouth. .458 B&M COLs: 2.890″ and 2.990″ .458 WM COLs: 3.150″ and 3.250″
That is perfect for net case capacity match, if both are loaded with same seating depth, not coincidentally. COL has to be 0.260″ longer with the .458 WM for it to equal the .458 B&M case capacity. If brass is trimmed to 2.230″ and 2.490″ respectively, max COLs become 2.980″ and 3.240″ respectively.
If the third band is seated hard up against the case mouth, 0.850″ of nose projection might be possible. I am still eye-balling this. Then the respective COLs with the “trimmed-to” brass become: 3.080″ and 3.340″ I am going to try it, to give the .458 WM its full SAAMI due. Don’t laugh. I had a 360-gr./.500-cal., tipped Raptor put 3 shots into 0.3 MOA at 300 yards, once upon a time, with only one band inside the case mouth and a boat tail hanging below that ! In the .458 WM I am going to have the base band down in case with a taper crimp above it, running into the bottom of the third band for a hard stop. The bullet pull may be weak but the bullet stop will be strong. I doubt I will have to paper-patch between the base band and third band for a tighter grip. This ain’t no double rifle ammo, so the bullets won’t get pulled when riding in a magazine. Alignment and concentricity should not be an issue either, with a Lee Factory Crimp.
The spectacular 400-gr #13 has a length of only 1.224″ on a sample of one I just picked out of the bulk bag. Seating depth is only 0.374″ if bullet projection is 0.850″ ahead of case mouth. The minor diameter of the bullet currently being coon-fingered (0.449″) is right on 0.001″ less than bore diameter (0.450″). The band diameter is right on groove diameter minimum of 0.458″. Keeping the optimized 3 + 1 band structure, there is hardly any other way to build this bullet. It is totally optimized. I will never look this gift horse in the mouth.
Sir Ron, Your Absolutely correct on the 1885 Stuff. I also noticed that a while back when we watched it.
I didn't notice the Starline brass though, good observation.
Sir Tony, You ought to enjoy this: They started off at Fort Worth:
But not sure what route they took to get onto the Oregon trail, film showed them crossing the Brazos River early on ???
The Model of 1885 being used in April of 1883:
It might have been a .45-70 Gov't. Killing Machine:
The ammo for the more survivable firearms used in the gunfights:
Sir Ron, Enjoying every dog gone minute of it!!!! Wishin we could "Buy a Donkey" for it!!! LOL!!! I now notice the Starline Brass on the "Replica Winchester Model 1873" Box! Thanks for the great work, "RIP"
You'll be on fire with those new 400gr solids Sir Ron, good stuff man, speaking of good stuff, i sent one of your 404gr Hammers at 2500+ fps to the 300 yard gong after wearing out conformation targets from 50 to 250 yards, +2.5" @100 zeros dead on at 200 yards, exactly -10" at 300, bullet still trucking along at 1950+ fps at the 300 yard line, dont know Hammers minimum bullet velocity for expansion but i believe i'm gold at 1950 and maybe a good bit less.
I held 10 inches into around an 8-12 mph East wind shooting dew North, bullet landed about 2 inches left of dead center, seems Hammers estimated b.c. of .41 is pretty accurate, especially so here at 555 ft. elevation, that combo is a hammer that still packed enough freight to knock the holy dog crap out of that 300 yard steel, a lot of momentum left in reserve, i'll find a big buffalo if one's there and we shall see what it does on the real thing ; ]
Great info ✔️👍
Yep, take note. Sir Jerry is the "Talent" or exhibition shooter for the .458 WM+. He is the pro bono hired gun. He works gratis for the common good.
LOL, Thank you Sirs, i hit the 350 yard Ram and 400 yard gong this morning at first light, well past operating range of the bullet i'm sure, but shows what can be done if a man knows his drops.
Sir Ron, those 400 grain solids will be gold and perfect littermates to the 404 Hammers ; ]
Sir Jerry, They will be good for pairing with the 400-gr softs, aye ! Your 500-gr Sledgehammers in the .458 WM+ might penetrate farther, but even the 400-grainer will be elephant-capable. That Doc M at MIB is working hard at it, already has some "terminals" with the new bullet, and lots of results with other bullets to compare:
Here is the gold standard for comparison:
And a couple of inches deeper here:
Incredibly the 325-gr #13 FN is just an inch or two short of the 400-grainer at same impact velocity and, more understandably, no improvement as velocity is increased past a certain point with the 325-grainer:
Exponential increase of resistance as velocity goes up ? A velocity wall dependent on the greater-than-first-order test medium ?
That one inch less with the 325-grainer than with the 400-grainer's penetration is adequate for elephant:
It takes an elephant skull frontal shot plus an elephant body to catch one of those little 325-grain boogers !
6 feet of hippo was enough to stop the 450-gr CEB Safari Solid on one occasion:
So the 400-gr CEB Safari Solid ought to be able to do the work if both the 325-gr and 450-gr CEB brass FNs of same caliber can do it.
Very impressive, this proves that a properly designed mono metal solid doesn't need to be 500 grains and the folly of falling for the SD nonsense
Yep, even the 325-gr/.458 brass FN of CEB with a BBW#13 nose shape projecting 0.6" ahead of first band is better than the old 500-gr/.458 RN FMJ "solid," even at same impact velocity, even at 2000 fps or less. Lessons from MIB.
Here is the WFN copper Lehigh 380-grainer. The sharp-edged, ~.35-caliber meplat may not penetrate as deeply as the BBW#13 nose profile, but it will track straight and dump energy faster, put more hurt on a big brown bear not needing as much penetration as an elephant. It still does plenty of penetrating. Feeds in my bolt actions if I keep them seated deeply enough. That was the only surprise about this bullet for me:
Buffalo brain shot lesson at top of next page, Sir Roo will like that, done with Blaser R-8 in the lesser-caliber .375 H&H. Even works on tuskless cow PAC elephant:
300-gr CEB Safari Solid head shot exited, angled side brain to offside neck near ear. One shot and done, at less than 10 yards range ! 300-gr TSX shot well with the CEB solid load also.
Buffalo was shot at 40 yards range, broadside body hidden by brush, long grass and thorns, head visible and watching hunter, head erect but turned slightly to buffalo's right side, buffalo watching hunter, thinking he was hidden well enough in the thicket. Aim point was to right of center of brain pan. Batter up ! Bullet: 300-gr/.375 TSX, from Blaser .375 H&H I think it exited back of buffalo's head, passing under thickest part of skull and bosses. Will notify if not so.
Grand, old dagga boy:
Sir Toby, above, just got back from Africa. For some reason he is replacing his Blaser R8 .375 H&H barrel with a .458 WinMag barrel and has started shooting .458 WM+ loads with 450-gr TSX at 3.565" COL. The Blaser magazine handles .375 H&H COL afterall. His first loads were fired today, in his Blaser R8 !
Very cool stuff, thank you. The advantage of the 375 in an R8 is a much lighter gun. I would assume that a proper solid in it will be indistinguishable from the great 458 if each is placed properly. I have a 375 barrel for my wife and daughters to shoot. Hard to go wrong with the 375 for hunting in the U.S. or elsewhere.
Barnes 450gr TSX TAC powder. COL 3.565 crimped in second groove from bottom. 75gr 2083fps 77gr 2140fps 78gr 2166fps 80gr 2204fps
I stopped at 80gr. This is 1.5gr under the Barnes book max for 458 Lott. I see no signs of pressure, and extraction is easy. Primer pockets still tight after 3 loadings on one of the cases I was keeping track of. I was only able to get 2140fps with this bullet in my 21″ Winchester 70. This R8 has a usable barrel length of 22.5″. So I think I should be able to do better, but not really that concerned. I’m betting the CEB Raptors and Solids will give better velocities as they have in the past with my 21″ gun. I was easily getting 2250fps with that gun and the 420 Raptors. Now with being able to use the Talon tips in this R8, I should be able to come up with a heck of a load."
My suggestion for the 450-gr CEB Safari Solid, 420-gr CEB Raptor is same bullet with 30-gr of HP removed at meplat:
This load ought to be just a wee bit over 2250 fps in a 20″ barrel, and it is only a wee bit over 3.340″ COL: 3.360″ COL. If you were using a .458 Lott, it would require a heavier powder charge and have more recoil to get it that fast, and as Michael said, you don’t need it any faster. This was my starting load and my only .458 WM+ load with this bullet:
20″ velocity estimate, about 2275 fps. Maybe increasing the COL from 3.360″ to 3.370″ or even 3.380″ would slow it down to 2250 fps, HEH HEH.
Now getting ready for some 400-gr CEB Safari Solid to go with the 404-gr Shock Hammer ...
Good show Sir Jerry. For Sir Roo, take note. If you want light rifle carry, here is as light as I like to go in a .458 WM:
Marcella is an M70 .416 RemMag action re-barreled to .458 WM with a No. 4 sporter contour McGowen of true .458" groove, cut down from 26" to 23" at the muzzle end of the barrel blank. It is almost as fast as a 25" Shilen which has closer to 0.459" groove. 400-grainers at +2500 fps was no problemo in either barrel, with AA-2230. This will be my deer rifle this year, with the 404-gr. Shock Hammer at 3.480" COL. But I will add the weight of a scope and more:
The 400-gr GSC HV handload was at + 2500 fps from the Shilen. Same rifle did about 2350 fps with the Buffalo Bore factory loaded 400-gr TSX. Both killed deer with results similar to Sir Jerry's illustration.
This one needs some accessories added to it for extra weight:
Same as the CIP homologated .45-70 Elko Magnum, with Starline brass for .45-2.6" it is 2 grains H2O bigger than the .458 WM. The slow twist comes from re-chambering a .45-70 Gov't., and note that Ruger makes those with the same groove diameter as their faster-twist .458 WM barrels, even though SAAMI minimum is 0.456" for .45-70 Gov't.
How do you like the red dot? I'm looking at one for a Whitworth .458. I would love to find one that would cowitness but haven't seen anything like that so far.
Very impressive, this proves that a properly designed mono metal solid doesn't need to be 500 grains and the folly of falling for the SD nonsense
Yep, even the 325-gr/.458 brass FN of CEB with a BBW#13 nose shape projecting 0.6" ahead of first band is better than the old 500-gr/.458 RN FMJ "solid," even at same impact velocity, even at 2000 fps or less. Lessons from MIB.
Here is the WFN copper Lehigh 380-grainer. The sharp-edged, ~.35-caliber meplat may not penetrate as deeply as the BBW#13 nose profile, but it will track straight and dump energy faster, put more hurt on a big brown bear not needing as much penetration as an elephant. It still does plenty of penetrating. Feeds in my bolt actions if I keep them seated deeply enough. That was the only surprise about this bullet for me:
Sir Ron, I think this 380 Lehigh will work out well for the 45-70 and faster 458's. The bc is not near what the 404 Hammer is, but for the limited visibility areas this bullet should knock the crap out of moose and/or bear from nearly any angle.
Whole LOTTA good from you Sir Ron and Doc M, agreed on the 400 Hammer solids as well as LDM's 380 grainers, they both will do the job anyone would ever call on a solid bullet to do, also agree with Sir John on the sec/den deal, it certainly does not apply to solids, i'll find and slam hard a buffalo with the 404 Hammers, wont cut it any slack, if straight broadside through the shoulders is presented, that's exactly where i'll send it, i dont foresee and problems, should any arise after two solid hits 'if needed' from the 404 Hammers the 500gr TBSS's will finish it.
How do you like the red dot? I'm looking at one for a Whitworth .458. I would love to find one that would cowitness but haven't seen anything like that so far.
DesertMuleDeer,
Not an issue for me. I just eyeballed where the red dot is, hanging a little above the front sight, and then just ignore the front sight. It is a backup sight I was merely toying with. Very light and handy and better for poor light conditions than a peep sight. That one has worked well on a Glock 10mm Auto. Should survive well on a rifle too. I like scopes best of all.
[quote=Riflecrank] Sir Ron, I think this 380 Lehigh will work out well for the 45-70 and faster 458's. The bc is not near what the 404 Hammer is, but for the limited visibility areas this bullet should knock the crap out of moose and/or bear from nearly any angle.
Sir Jerry, I will tell Doc M about the appreciation he is getting over here at 24hr. If you ever want to join his private forum, you were invited and vouched for by many, IIRC. They say that an Eskimo woman gets tattoos on her chin to show that she is a "serious woman." Your reputation as a "serious man" has spread far and wide. No need for you to get a tattoo on your chin ... heh heh, sometimes I just can't heppit, trying to be funny, but it goes off the rails.
Here is someting you and Sir Tony will like:
Top rifle above is a Browning Bros. M1879 serial no. 509, chambered for .40-70 something or other. Rifle below it is Winchester M1885 serial no. 87, chambered for .45-70 Gov't. In this situation, the model numbers might match the year of production. Picture is from R. L. Wilson's book, "WINCHESTER An American Legend" which brings us back to the topic of the .458 Winchester Magnum. I bought R.L. a hotdog and an ice cream cone at the 2016 NRA Convention. We heard Trump and Pence and Ted Nugent that day in Freedom Hall. R.L. died soon after that. Hope the hotdog and ice cream cone did not have anything to do with his death.
Another trick with a CEB bullet, loading with either one band or two bands inside a case, even when the bullet has a boat tail, it can be done:
Seeing how well a 325-gr/.458 CEB #13 FN brass solid penetrates gives me new respect for the 300-gr Raptor shot backwards for use as FN solid.
No, I do not need a 400-gr/.458-cal. CEB ESP Raptor with Talon Tip. But it would be fun, even if BC could not be as high as the 404-gr/.458-cal. Shock Hammer.
A comparison of a Lehigh Defense trick bullet to a couple of even trickier CEB bullets:
CEB has a 650-gr/.458-cal. Lazer also, but enuff is enuff. The Lazer bullets fracture into 3 large petals at the tip, reportedly at velocity as low as 1200 fps impact.
Sir Jerry, I will tell Doc M about the appreciation he is getting over here at 24hr. If you ever want to join his private forum, you were invited and vouched for by many, IIRC. They say that an Eskimo woman gets tattoos on her chin to show that she is a "serious woman." Your reputation as a "serious man" has spread far and wide. No need for you to get a tattoo on your chin ... heh heh, sometimes I just can't heppit, trying to be funny, but it goes off the rails.
Here is someting you and Sir Tony will like:
Top rifle above is a Browning Bros. M1879 serial no. 509, chambered for .40-70 something or other. Rifle below it is Winchester M1885 serial no. 87, chambered for .45-70 Gov't. In this situation, the model numbers might match the year of production. Picture is from R. L. Wilson's book, "WINCHESTER An American Legend" which brings us back to the topic of the .458 Winchester Magnum. I bought R.L. a hotdog and an ice cream cone at the 2016 NRA Convention. We heard Trump and Pence and Ted Nugent that day in Freedom Hall. R.L. died soon after that. Hope the hotdog and ice cream cone did not have anything to do with his death.
You are Correct Sir Ron, That's one of my favorite pages in that Book! A "Serious Man" tatoo might be hard to come by. As Sir Jerry might already have one in an inconspicuous place! LOL!!!
Sir Jerry, I will tell Doc M about the appreciation he is getting over here at 24hr. If you ever want to join his private forum, you were invited and vouched for by many, IIRC. They say that an Eskimo woman gets tattoos on her chin to show that she is a "serious woman." Your reputation as a "serious man" has spread far and wide. No need for you to get a tattoo on your chin ... heh heh, sometimes I just can't heppit, trying to be funny, but it goes off the rails.
Here is someting you and Sir Tony will like:
Top rifle above is a Browning Bros. M1879 serial no. 509, chambered for .40-70 something or other. Rifle below it is Winchester M1885 serial no. 87, chambered for .45-70 Gov't. In this situation, the model numbers might match the year of production. Picture is from R. L. Wilson's book, "WINCHESTER An American Legend" which brings us back to the topic of the .458 Winchester Magnum. I bought R.L. a hotdog and an ice cream cone at the 2016 NRA Convention. We heard Trump and Pence and Ted Nugent that day in Freedom Hall. R.L. died soon after that. Hope the hotdog and ice cream cone did not have anything to do with his death.
You are Correct Sir Ron, That's one of my favorite pages in that Book! A "Serious Man" tatoo might be hard to come by. As Sir Jerry might already have one in an inconspicuous place! LOL!!!
LOL, very funny stuff Sirs Ron and Tony, chin tats would be out as i have whiskers on my chin, you see, one butt crack is enough, i grow whiskers to hide the one on my face, plus shaving it then leaves two tiny red chapped hiney cheeks on one's face, who wants that??? ; ]
Great rifles those 1885's, betting the 40-70 is either a 40-70 Sharps Straight or 40-70 Sharps Bottleneck, great guns!
HAHAHAHA! Glad your laughing with us Sir Jerry. Yeah I agree with the 40-70 Sharps Straight, as Winchester and Remington, both used it occasionally in their Single Shot Rifles back then, more so than the 40-70 Bottleneck, from what I understand, but I wouldn't rule it out either. I especially am a fan of the Thick side receiver on the Browning vs. the Paneled receiver on the High Wall. Hence, their both nice Rifles and Desirable!
Great shooting Sir Roo, and a really slick presentation on the Blaser R8 with redeeming social value. For adults only. I am happy for you but hope you don't have any ideas about grooming kindergarten kids toward Blasers without first presenting the full curriculum and pedagogy for parental approval. Live and let live, everybody has got to be crazy about something. But ! You will never catch me grooming kindergartners into Blaser tendencies, like they do at NAMBLA: North American Man Blaser Love Association.
The CEB fantasy bullet is really kinky. Bear with me, do not bare with me. Inspiration of the fantasy:
No Blaser intruded on my fantasy:
Ideally, bullet is going to be about 1.400″ long, 5 bearing bands of 0.458″ diameter, minor diameter 0.449″. Accepts same Talon Tip as on the 300-gr ESP Raptor, for extra-long BOL. That would satisfy my 400-gr bullet fetish for a little while. Until then it takes two to tango: 400-gr CEB #13 and 404-gr Shock Hammer. Someday, one stone for both birds. One bullet for everything .458. Not in the same sense as Deputy Barney Fife got to carry only one bullet in his shirt pocket, however.
I would love to shoot that little lightweight you have there, right up my ally. Before trying it though, show us on the doll where the bad Blaser touched you. You're safe now.
I'm pretty sure Sir Ron can take a joke as well as make them.
Not much of a joke
Not much of a sense of humor on your end, it seems.
Sir Ron has been teasing about the Blaser for some time. This time he talked about "grooming." My response was exactly in line with his line of teasing. Do you really not understand this?
I'm pretty sure Sir Ron can take a joke as well as make them.
Not much of a joke
Not much of a sense of humor on your end, it seems.
Sir Ron has been teasing about the Blaser for some time. This time he talked about "grooming." My response was exactly in line with his line of teasing. Do you really not understand this?
I understand that it ain't f'ing funny. Do you understand
Now, now, funny is in the eye of the beholder, just like with a Blaser fetish. Moving on to more serious business:
The ultimate bullet. It doesn't have to be the ultimate penetrator or have the highest BC. It just has to do any job at hand, by switching the direction of loading, forward or backwards in the cartridge case. Another idea is just to stretch the 300-gr CEB ESP Raptor in length sufficient to make it 400 grains. Done here by photo distortion only, it will obviously need some tweaking:
Sir Ron, Your exploration is tireless. It will be interesting to see how the 400 gr CEB #13 pairs with the Hammer 404. I am also looking forward to working with the 380 gr WFN Lehigh. I except this to become my primary bullet for limited visibility areas. The 404 Hammer for more varied terrain. Both of these seem to be accurate in my Lott. Though with my loads, POI differences were pretty significant.
Yes, SSK for B&M proprietary. Yes, it is funny, in a good way. I expect to do about 2300 fps with the 404gr Shock Hammer from the ~17" barrel, with same powder charge that does about 2500 fps in a 24" .458 WM+.
That will make this .458 B&M+ give about same velocity at 200 yards as the .458 WM+ does at 300 yards. +1900 fps impact for pretend 300-yard impact on Bambi at 200 yards. The short-barrel handicap is about about 100 yards for plains game.
For DG at spitting distance there is no handicap at all if the 400-gr Brass FN can do 2300 fps MV from the 17" barrel. Now that's funny ! Yes, it is funny, in a good way.
Here is the 2.990" COL for the 450-gr #13 (top), 400-gr #13 (middle), and 3.220" COL for the 404-gr Shock Hammer (bottom) for the .458 B&M+:
Those are equivalent to 3.250" and 3.480" COLs in the .458 WM+, using R-P brass in the former and Hornady or W-W or R-P brass in the latter.
Here is my guesstimate on how the shortening of barrel to 16.875" will affect MV for .458 B7M+ or .458 WM+, same same:
Here is how the .458 B&M+ did in the Tupperware stock, when barrel was 19.75", 5 shots with 450-gr #13 at 50 yards, mean 5-yard velocity =2203 fps mean of 5 shots. 77.0 grains AA-2520, 3.015" COL, I pulled one:
Same specifics for the 420-gr FB/HP "Raptor", for three shots only, I pulled third shot so quit there, 2223 fps mean of 5 shots, however, Very close to same POI for the 450-grainer and 420-grainer using same powder charge:
wondering if you load the 404gr Shock Hammer base forward will it act like a solid? asked Steve at Hammer bullets and he did not answer just said he would like to design a solid weighing 300-350 grains he thinks it might be better
HAHAHAHA! Glad your laughing with us Sir Jerry. Yeah I agree with the 40-70 Sharps Straight, as Winchester and Remington, both used it occasionally in their Single Shot Rifles back then, more so than the 40-70 Bottleneck, from what I understand, but I wouldn't rule it out either. I especially am a fan of the Thick side receiver on the Browning vs. the Paneled receiver on the High Wall. Hence, their both nice Rifles and Desirable!
LOL, you bet Sir Tony, all good here, love all '85's, i have a very temperamental '74 40-90 Sharps bottleneck, i'll get back on it this winter after hunting season, if that drama queen doesn't line out i'll send it to JES and have him run a half inch drill bit through it, a half round half octagon 50-90 Sharps will be a very good thing and very easy to get along with, just like my other two.
404 Hammer/500 TBSS buffalo time is drawing near, i and the mighty 458 WM+ are more than ready for all comers out to 325+ yards.
wondering if you load the 404gr Shock Hammer base forward will it act like a solid? asked Steve at Hammer bullets and he did not answer just said he would like to design a solid weighing 300-350 grains he thinks it might be better
Too wide at meplat backwards and too perfect a bullet when loaded properly ... 't'would be a shame.
I could use some pointers on the .40-90 SBN. Got one made by re-chambering a Pedersoli .40-65 WCF, their 1874 Silhouette version, plain Jane heavy octagon. Have not loaded ammo for it yet. Paper patch or greaser, whatever Sir Jerry can get to work, I'll try it.
Yep. I use 3 balls and 18.5 grains of BLUEDOT from a 1.6cc Lee dipper. All three balls will group inside the head of a zombie at 25 yards.
Next trick will be to use the Speer .45 Long Colt shot capsules to increase birdshot capacity of the .458 WinMag to greater than that of the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Heretofor the only area of superiority of the .458 Lott has been with rat-killin' shot loads. That too is now in jeopardy.
I could use some pointers on the .40-90 SBN. Got one made by re-chambering a Pedersoli .40-65 WCF, their 1874 Silhouette version, plain Jane heavy octagon. Have not loaded ammo for it yet. Paper patch or greaser, whatever Sir Jerry can get to work, I'll try it.
Sir Ron, those Pedersoli's have great triggers and lock works, my rifle is a 16 twist, i have 400gr paper patch and a 350gr grease groove bullet, have learned all powder, grease cookie and wads need to be kept in the neck, finicky little hard fouling beach to say the least.
Sir Jerry, Good, my barrel is 1:16" twist also, 30" long, straight octagon all the way, about 12 pounds weight rifle. 0.400" bore, 0.408" groove, 6-groove, double set trigger, tang Soule sight. I will be most interested in paper-patching 20:1 alloy, 400-ish grainer slicks, by the same methods as you and Saint Sir Bill Bagwell employ(ed) for the .40-cals. Mine is on the backburner due to RADD (Rifle Attention Deficit Disorder).
GUNS Magazine, Dec. 2022 is out. pp. 50-53: "Jack O'Connor's .450 WATTS" by Wayne van Zwoll
Some tired old propaganda and false narratives were regurgitated as usual, like Democrap gaslighting, as reliably as the gaffs and pratfalls of Joe Biden ushered in for a puppet show performance. The most glaring of this misinformation was to say that the .458 Winchester Magnum "hurls 500-grain bullets about 200 fps slower" than the .458 Lott ! The "ammunition expert," Wayne van Zwoll, was typing up the wrong tree on that one. He once published a book showing a Hornady factory load for the .458 WinMag with 500-grainer at 2260 fps.
Sir Jerry has verified .458 WM+ ammo at about 3.560" COL (IIRC) with 500-gr TBSS at +2300 fps. If the SAAMI .458 Lott does that it will be at higher pressure than in the .458 WM+. I have LabRadar-ed that same bullet at 2408 fps MV from a 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag with W-W Super brass and 3.550" COL. That was a 5-shot mean with st.dev. of 6.9 fps at 80*F.
2300 fps with the 500-gr FN solid is good in the .458 WM+. So is 2500 fps with the 404-gr Shock Hammer, and probably nothing more than 2400 fps with the 400-gr FN solid by CEB at 3.350" COL is needed. Somewhere between impact at 2200 fps and 2500 fps penetration might be maxed out for an FN solid.
The natives are getting restless at the Hammer Bullets web site, so I printed this there, when some of them griped about no blood and guts yet, and also claimed the .45-90 was of greater case capacity than the .458 WM. To the Hammer Heads:
I'll be hunting deer soon with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. The zone I am in has no limit this year, 4 was the limit last year, they need thinning out. I should be able to get some necropsies on deer. Sir Jerry's report on cape buffalo and African plains game with the 404-gr SH is in the pipe, be patient. Twice to Africa for me has been enough, I want more Alaska. I will never get enough of Alaska, and the 404-gr SH is perfect for anything there. Might even make a great sheep and goat bullet from the right rifle. I'll get a lot of mileage out of that concept.
.45-90 is a 2.4" rimmed cartridge case. If it is bigger than the 2.5" case of the .458 WM, that is a surprise to me. Starline .45-2.6" brass, for the .45-100-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated aka the ".45-70 Elko Magnum" exactly as shown in CIP, is 2 grains water bigger than the .458 WM.
In W-W Super, Hornady, or RP brass cases, trimmed to 2.500" after firing and not re-sized, gross water is 95 grains, just like the default in QuickLOAD says. However, the Norma .458 WM brass case is bigger in gross case capacity than those, by about another 4.2 grains H20. So, 95.0 to 99.2 grains H20 gross for the .458 WM depending on brass.
So a 3.380" COL with Norma brass gives same net case capacity as 3.480" COL with W-W Super or Hornady brass in the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Those are good COLs with the 404-gr Shock Hammer using 2.500" brass when crimping on the 2nd and 3rd troughs of the 5 in the PDR bands.
Here are some loads chronographed from a 25" Shilen barrel with the 404-gr Shock Hammer in W-W Super (Winchester) brass, at 3.480" COL F-215 or GM215M primer at 86*F corrected to MV from 5-yard chronograph (BC = 0.419), consider these maximum or too hot for your rifle until proven otherwise, starting from 10% below:
At 39*F, earlier date, other load specs and rifle same as above:
AA-2230 81.0 grains: 2517 fps
At 40*F, earlier date, other load specs and rifle same as above, except using greater capacity Norma brass:
AA-2230 84.0 grains: 2545 fps
From 25" to 20" barrel shortening, subtract about 20 fps per inch as estimate. Below 20" barrel length, losses increase more rapidly per inch. Above 25" length, gains decrease more rapidly per inch.
Remember that these results are made possible by the throat of the SAAMI .458 WM. I put that same throat on my .45-2.6"-100 Sharps (Ruger No. 1) and thus recreated the .45-70 Elko Magnum. That "70" in the Elko must be for 70 grains of non-compressed smokeless like H4198 instead of for 70 grains of compressed BP. Heh heh. Any loads for the .458 WM that might be over 60,000 psi or over 3.340" COL I call .458 WM+ loads. Load data for the .458 WM+ (with W-W Super brass) and the .45-2.6-100 SWT (with StarLine brass) are interchangeable. COL is just 0.100" longer in the latter.
Sir Jerry's results on the Cape Buffalo are certainly anxiously awaited. I anticipate outstanding bullet performance from the 404 Hammer.
I am going to shoot for 2350-2400 fps from my 22" 458 Winchester standard magazine length and the 404 Hammer. That should be a relatively light recoiling load, have a suitable trajectory arc for my purposes, and should rapidly let the air out of anything in Alaska within 225 or so yards. I probably never would have tried the Hammer, had Barnes responded favorably to the pleadings for the 400 TSX production after dropping the 400 X-bullet. Water under the bridge. But, at this point the 404 Hammer fits my wants better anyways. I was hooked after opening the first box. The MIB penetration testing, and groups on target sealed the deal for me. Plus they do seem to copper foul the barrel very little. Though personally have never complaints about X or TSX. Certainly no more than A-Frames in my .375, 416, and 458 rifles. Which, I still like A-Frames and found them to group very well in my rifles. As stated by many, many times; Lots of good to great bullets on the market now. Of course being in stock may be a different story.
Yep, the 404-gr Shock Hammer is destined to be the ultimate Mountain Goat Bullet. Remember Mr. Chadwick's Stone Sheep from early last century ? It was said to be the greatest North American trophy of all time, still No. 1 Stone Sheep in B&C last I heard. Mr. Chadwick used a 300-gr bullet from his 404 Jeffery to draw first blood on the sheep. So what if his guide finished it off with a .30-06 while Mr. Chadwick was huffing and puffing to catch up at that altitude ? Numerology of the 404 Shock Hammer says it is to be the ultimate sheep bullet from a .458 WinMag.
I used to jokingly call the 404 Jeffery the ultimate "African Sheep Rifle" because of Mr. Chadwick. Since advent of the .458/404-gr Shock Hammer, the .458 Winchester Magnum has become the ultimate "GOAT Rifle" as in Greatest Of All Time Rifle.
Tim Sundles gets 2250 fps from his 400-gr TSX Buffalo Bore proprietary load whether in his 18"-barreled (Marquart barrel) custom Mauser .458 WinMag or in his 22"-barreled M70 Winchester factory rifle, with same ammo. Bore and groove specs, surface finish of those barrel internals, throat specs, slop in chamber, etc. all interact in MV versus chamber pressure, whatever the barrel length.
I get closer to 2330 -2350 fps with the same ammo in 24" to 25" .458 WinMag barrels, custom and factory. That puts the speediness of my rifles midway between Tim's fast and slow rifles, when corrected for barrel length. BTW, upon dissection of his factory load, it looks like he is using the midrange charge of AA-2230 as listed in the Western Powders handloading manual for the old Barnes Original 400-gr Barnes SSSP.
Of course my data is only a guide, for adults who are not drinking beer while handloading.
Here is what Bob Mitchell said on his blog today, a God Wink:
I'm thinking that any differences in handloaded ballistics between the 7 x 57 and 7-08 will depend on the length of individual barrels, free bore, tightness of bore, COLs, powder used, psi, and the personality, goal and experience of the handloader - and NOT inherent differences in the cartridges.
The .280 Remington is, of course, a larger case that can hold ~10 grains more of the same powder, or a slightly slower powder like RL-22, so it's expected - all else equal, including barrel lengths and psi - that it could/should give a minimum of 100 - 200 fps increase in MV over the others. And I would not restrict the 7 x 57 nor the .280 to SAAMI specs in psi. The 7-08 is already at max of 62,000 psi (SAAMI) but it too could be safely pushed to 65,000 psi if the .270 is safe at that pressure according to SAAMI.
Of course, all that depends on the individual rifle and the handloader's experience for reading any excessive psi. ALL manuals make reference to excessive pressure "signs"! SO! IF pressure signs can't be "read", why do ALL manuals make reference to it? They even make DISCLAIMERS re their loads! YOU and I are on our own, they've abandoned us in that regard! That's an overload in REDUNDANCY since many on the forums who may have results greater than the manuals use the disclaimer: "And there were NO SIGNS of excess pressure"!!
So one handloader might claim 2750 fps for a 140 from his "precious" 7 x 57, and another might claim 3000 fps for a 140 from his "precious" 7 x 57... and both might be using safe handloads - NO SIGNS of excessive pressure!
Here is the deer-shusher ammo dummy, top cartridge below:
This will allow me to save on .458 WM brass for a little while. I only have 20 pieces of the Qual-Cart brass with proper head stamp. Happy to convert any .300 RUM brass to .458 B&M anytime. My .458 B&M+ work will easily translate to SAAMI .458 WM and .458 WM+ load data.
Yep, the little .458 SOCOM does at 35,000 psi what the .45-70 does at 28,000 psi. Nilgai is on my bucket list. Seems perfect for a .458/404-gr Shock Hammer inside of 400 yards, How much inside of 400 yards I cannot say. That will depend on whether I shoot it while wearing my pajamas. How a nilgai would ever get into my pajamas I cannot say either. A nilgai is sort of like a huge goat, for the GOAT Rifle.
My friends and I have shot a few Nilgai - all within 100 yards. A UT buddy has ranch near Raymondville and killed all he could because they ate the grass intended for his cattle. He actually ran one down with his pickup truck-- broke the truck. My last one was shot at 10 yards with .405 DR. It all depends on where and how you hunt. Good campfire story. We hunt them in heavy cover, not in open country.
Nilgai at spitting distance or way out yonder, the 404-gr Shock Hammer will gitterdun. It's all good, except for the part about the broken pickup truck from running'em over.
In reviewing this MIB data prior to trying my 19.75" barrel chopped to 16.75" I found a great illustration of fundamental science.
AA-2520 charge of 77.0 grains was the load I tested years ago in the .458 B&M with the 450-gr CEB BBW#13 FN and 420-gr CEB BBW#13 HP. I picked that load because it looked nice in the MIB data.
Velocity loss per inch of barrel shortening from 20" to 18":
450-gr bullet: 21.5 fps per inch 420-gr bullet: 23.5 fps per inch
Confirmation that with barrel shortening, heavier bullets lose less velocity than lighter bullets, heh heh. I also reckon that loads with faster-burning powders also lose less velocity per inch of barrel shortening, heh heh. But we usually use faster powders with lighter bullets, so it is a wash, pretty much, heh heh.
Here are some loads I will be testing in the .458 B&M+ comparing my previous 19.75" barrel length to the 16.875" length, using AA-2520 77.0 grains with the 450-gr FN and 420-gr HP from CEB. Then will try the 404-gr Shock Hammer with AA-2230 and H4198 loads that previously gave about 2500 fps in a 24" .458 WM+ for both powders. This might show that the faster-burning H4198 loses less velocity with barrel shortening than AA-2230.
I promise to gitterdun before Halloween, in between muzzleloader and modern gun season. I want to hunt deer with the .458 B&M+. Same thing as the .458 WM+ if you load them accordingly. Speaking of Halloween, Jon McNaughton is an artistic genius:
Here is an interesting comparison of velocities for 3 different rifles with 18", 20", and 24" barrel lengths for the .458 B&M, which is short throated. Michael McCouury pressure tests his loads and considers these loads not excessive, in his rifles.
Loads for the .458 B&M are good in the .458 WM with 0.260" longer COL for equivalence.
Surprising thing for me in the table above: Different bullet types with same weight differ wildly in same rifle with same powder charge for delta Velocity per inch of Barrel Length, dV/dBL. Not to mention that all three rifle barrel lengths (18″, 20″, 24″) are from different rifle barrels, and all that entails. Complex ! Whatever gets the largest area under the time-pressure curve in the least time is going to lose less velocity per inch in a given rifle ? Just a SWAG. Factors like bullet material and bearing surface area, barrel bore and groove diameters and bore area and rifling twist and finish on the rifling surfaces, etc., chamber slop and throat variations, etc., assuming identical loads fired in all the rifles, still a lot of room for variation in the dV/dBL.
My Miroku M1885 .45-70 Gov’t. has 0.457″ groove diameter, 6-grooves, 1:18″ twist, for example.
I guess the MIB rifle was a re-barrel of the M1885, for .458 B&M with 24″-barrel length ?
Best to start with one barrel and compare it at various length cut from long to short, nothing else changing, including throat.
Confession: My .458 B&M+ started off with a request for 0.400″ length of PSFB, and it had a 19.75″ barrel. The extra Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore of 0.400″ would be expected to lower velocity (and pressure) for the same load as tested in the MIB 20″-barreled standard chamber (short throat), and it did, more than the trivial 0.25″ shortening would cause. My 19.75″ velocities (.458 B&M+ 0.400″ PSFB) with AA-2520 77.0 grains, at 60*F:
450-gr CEB BBW#13 FN: 2203 fps at 5 yards, for BC = 0.190 corrects to 2224 fps MV 420-gr CEB BBW#13 HP: 2223 fps at 5 yards, for BC = 0.180 corrects to 2246 fps MV
MIB instrumental velocities of 2249 fps and 2254 fps respectively, if 5-yards chrono, would correct to MVs of 2271 fps and 2277 fps respectively, at assumed 70*F standard laboratory conditions.
I got more difference between heavier FN and lighter HP. Throat effect ? My twist of 1:10″ instead of 1:14″ is another trivial factor, less important than throat.
The 16.875″ barrel has been throated a bit longer still, with a .458 WinMag throat. That is the confession. New baseline for my rifle. Will make allowances for that.
Just have to shoot it to find out the difference with barrel shortening. This prediction stuff will give one a headache.
Buffalo Bore Ammo is good stuff. That 400-gr TSX load has a COL of 3.310" and satisfies SAAMI. The 450-gr TSX loads do too. However, that 450-gr TSX has a nose projection which is perfect for the SAAMI .458 WinMag, but when loaded in brass trimmed as usual for the .458 Lott, it won't fit SAAMI. Tim Sundles violated his usual standards of making ammo compliant to SAAMI, if a SAAMI standard exists. It happens. His .458 Lott load with the 450-gr TSX has a COL of 3.617". Just another example of special treatment to make the .458 Lott look good, via higher pressure and longer COL, when we all know the .458 WinMag is better. It will do all that is needed at shorter COL and lower pressure and it whips the .458 Lott if both are loaded to same COL and pressure. I do love Buffalo Bore Ammo, many great loads there, just a little sample:
One day of muzzleloader deer season and I am hanging it up. Farming patterns and deer patterns changed on me. The tripod produces not in the mornings.
A sit on the ground at a half hour before sunset produced only a +400-yard shot wobbled from my sitting position. Clean miss landed near the doe's feet.
I am inspired to put a long bipod on a .458 WM+ and continue with the 404-gr Shock Hammer at +2500 fps for my deer hunting. Sir Jerry will surely prove it on African plains game afar and cape buffalo up close. Shortened barrel comparison for .458 B&M+ will also be done for informational purposes. The short range shots I was hoping for on deer are not in the offing for me, sure as the sun sets in the west, on the other side of the pecan tree where I was sitting.
Spectacular artwork from Africa, thanks to Sir Jerry:
Sir Jerry is back after a slam dunk Shock Hammer Safari. Or should we say he hit 9-straight hole-in-one shots and it was no putt-putt course ?
Game shots from his 404-grain/.458-caliber Shock Hammer Safari follow, in the order of this list, noting one redacted item taken with 12-gauge buckshot.
All exits and dead right there or within 10-, 16-, and 33-yard run by three of the nine: Wildebeest, Zebra and Sable, respectively. Other six were DRT, including Cape Buffalo. All shots were pass-throughs, no Shock Hammer was recovered on nine animals, from warthog to cape buffalo.
Ranges were from 33 yards to 189 yards. Cape buffalo dropped to the single shot at 33 yards range and went nowhere. Cape buffalo was a pass-through on shoulder shot, any further details might come from gunner500.
All this was accomplished with the 404-gr Shock Hammer from gunner500's .458 WM+ Winchester M70, a speedy and accurate rifle and rifle operator. It takes three to tango: Bullet Rifle Shootist
Warthog cull, Sir Jerry may have shot this warthog in his pajamas. How this warthog got into his pajamas, I do not know. It was shot from 111 yards, between the north-looking eyes, bullet exited its southern end:
WOW! Pretty Impressive by All Accounts. Sir Jerry, Congrats all around. Very Successful by all means. Great Pics. Some Nice Shooting there. What a great collection of Game. We can't wait to hear some stories. Sir Ron, Thanks for posting Pics. and keeping us abreast.
Hello Sir Ron and all you other Men as well, many Thanks for posting the pics Sir, and Thanks for the compliments everyone, i appreciate it greatly, this trip was a blast, the 404gr Hammer bullet at 2518 fps took no prisoners, unbelievable performance and accuracy.
Funny stories about the warthogs, the cull was at PH's instruction for camp meat and because it had crooked teeth, he wanted it out of the gene pool, i hit the pig and the PH hollered, now that snaggle bostard had Fok-ol, i think i knew what that meant!
The other Warthog was hit just outside my hut before breakfast, i was at the sink with toothpaste and brush about to lay down a bead of paste, Wife hollered, come here!!! i thought she saw a scorpion or spider, was going to give it a Courteney stomp, she had been drinking coffee looking out the window and saw the Warthog, i grabbed my rifle and slipped around the front door, circled back to find a nice tree to rest, no range finder, no time to notify the PH's or anyone else in camp, i held for 200 yards and loosed a 404 Hammer, the pig melted, my description above is incorrect, hit him mid rib on his right side, exited neck/shoulder juncture on left side, one camp jack was putting on his pants when the 458 BOOMED, he dropped his glasses and fell in the floor, the 19 year old kid said later, that was a hell of a wakeup call Uncle Jerry, LOL!
I found the PH's and confessed my sins knowing i most likely broke camp rules, they both said.........IF IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ANYONE ELSE SIR!!!!!..........i'll take that.
All in all it was a great and grand trip, Sir Ron's predictions with this bullet design were/are spot on, he and the Hammer guys have a real winner here, the PH's kept repeating, who in hells hectacre shoots a G.D. four five eight 200 yards and kills all with one shot? i took that as a compliment.
I sure do wish I would have been lucky enough to meet the Late Great St. Bagwell, as I know we would have gotten along, and I would have learned a lot! The ones who got to meat and deal, and Enjoy his company, and Craftsmanship, along with his, Knowledge, sure is Lucky in my opinion.
That's the rifle that the Lyman 457121PH bullet is made for!
It's also the perfect hunting bullet for any .45-70 BPCR. Saint Bagwell turned me onto that bullet cast in 20:1.
Ed
Amen. Blessed is the Lyman 457121"PH" for BPCR. All hail Saint Bagwell !
Actually the "Ultra-Modern" CVA Paramount & Accura.45-cal muzzleloaders with 291-grain, AeroTip Power Belt with BC of about 0.333, at 2200 fps MV could shoot the same bullets as the Pedersoli Mortimer Whitworth. Just about identical bore, groove and twist. My druther would be paper-patched in the CVA muzzleloader, maybe with Blackhorn 209 ! The Volunteer or a slick patched up to 0.450"-0.451" diameter, either one has to be soft lead in order to muzzleload with a ramrod and obturate on firing. Yep, 20:1 alloy will do with real BP, maybe with Blackhorn 209 too ?
McCourry Institute of Ballistics wetpack testing on the 404-gr Shock hammer was done with impact speeds of about 2350 fps and about 2550 fps. Penetration did not increase in depth with higher velocity, stayed about 23" for both impact speeds, just increased the explosive trauma from about 3" to 7" depth along the wound channel. Petals came off by about 3" depth for both impact velocities. Here is the lower velocity impact results, per MIB:
Michael McCourry's work.
The sleek copper nose allows high BC for high-velocity delivery at impact, down range. Then it leaves a wicked-short penetrator with CG forward, still going pretty fast, not a perfectly square nose, slightly rounded off and slightly widened. Good enough for live game. Near 2 feet of MIB wetpack is good enough. Slow-Mo video of the 404-gr Shock hammer in ballistic gelatin sure would be interesting.
Hey, Sir Jerry, many mercy bo coops again. May I copy your latest comments to the Hammer Bullets web site or do you want to do it ? I see that you were not in your pajamas when you shot either one of the warthogs, just brushing your teeth on the second one. My bad.
Thanks Sir Tony, and yes Sir you may Sir Ron, i cant remember my password on the Hammer site, i'm going to try to put together a short vid of all the kill shots for posting here and over at Hammer.
Saint Bagwell's old 45-70 Shiloh Roughrider is zeroed and ready to go hunting this season, a belt of 40 rounds is hanging on the nail in the brick wall behind me, 520gr flat nosed paper patch bullets cast with 16/1 alloy over 75gr KIK 2F are leaving at 1265 fps, soft fouling, excellent accuracy and no US animal will hold one.
Sir Jerry, aka gunner500, posted this at 24-hr Campfire where he got wind of the Hammers. He gave permission to copy it here. He is now the Professional Shootist for Team .458. For him, the work is more like play, he would do it for peanuts, but prefers bullets. He said:
"Hello Sir Ron and all you other Men as well, many Thanks for posting the pics Sir, and Thanks for the compliments everyone, i appreciate it greatly, this trip was a blast, the 404gr Hammer bullet at 2518 fps took no prisoners, unbelievable performance and accuracy.
"Funny stories about the warthogs, the cull was at PH's instruction for camp meat and because it had crooked teeth, he wanted it out of the gene pool, i hit the pig and the PH hollered, now that snaggle bostard had Fok-ol, i think i knew what that meant!
"The other Warthog was hit just outside my hut before breakfast, i was at the sink with toothpaste and brush about to lay down a bead of paste, Wife hollered, come here!!! i thought she saw a scorpion or spider, was going to give it a Courteney stomp, she had been drinking coffee looking out the window and saw the Warthog, i grabbed my rifle and slipped around the front door, circled back to find a nice tree to rest, no range finder, no time to notify the PH's or anyone else in camp, i held for 200 yards and loosed a 404 Hammer, the pig melted, my description above is incorrect, hit him mid rib on his right side, exited neck/shoulder juncture on left side, one camp jack was putting on his pants when the 458 BOOMED, he dropped his glasses and fell in the floor, the 19 year old kid said later, that was a hell of a wakeup call Uncle Jerry, LOL!
"I found the PH's and confessed my sins knowing i most likely broke camp rules, they both said.........IF IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ANYONE ELSE SIR!!!!!..........i'll take that.
"All in all it was a great and grand trip, Sir Ron's predictions with this bullet design were/are spot on, he and the Hammer guys have a real winner here, the PH's kept repeating, who in hells hectacre shoots a G.D. four five eight 200 yards and kills all with one shot? i took that as a compliment."
Hello Sir Ron and all you other Men as well, many Thanks for posting the pics Sir, and Thanks for the compliments everyone, i appreciate it greatly, this trip was a blast, the 404gr Hammer bullet at 2518 fps took no prisoners, unbelievable performance and accuracy.
Funny stories about the warthogs, the cull was at PH's instruction for camp meat and because it had crooked teeth, he wanted it out of the gene pool, i hit the pig and the PH hollered, now that snaggle bostard had Fok-ol, i think i knew what that meant!
The other Warthog was hit just outside my hut before breakfast, i was at the sink with toothpaste and brush about to lay down a bead of paste, Wife hollered, come here!!! i thought she saw a scorpion or spider, was going to give it a Courteney stomp, she had been drinking coffee looking out the window and saw the Warthog, i grabbed my rifle and slipped around the front door, circled back to find a nice tree to rest, no range finder, no time to notify the PH's or anyone else in camp, i held for 200 yards and loosed a 404 Hammer, the pig melted, my description above is incorrect, hit him mid rib on his right side, exited neck/shoulder juncture on left side, one camp jack was putting on his pants when the 458 BOOMED, he dropped his glasses and fell in the floor, the 19 year old kid said later, that was a hell of a wakeup call Uncle Jerry, LOL!
I found the PH's and confessed my sins knowing i most likely broke camp rules, they both said.........IF IT WOULD HAVE BEEN ANYONE ELSE SIR!!!!!..........i'll take that.
All in all it was a great and grand trip, Sir Ron's predictions with this bullet design were/are spot on, he and the Hammer guys have a real winner here, the PH's kept repeating, who in hells hectacre shoots a G.D. four five eight 200 yards and kills all with one shot? i took that as a compliment.
LOL, good stuff Sir Ron, love the humor and Thank You Sir.
Thank You too Sir Bob, it was my pleasure.
TBGH, you bet my Friend, the hunt was a blast, you guys went above and beyond again, we'll see each other again soon, my Wife is still talking about the Safari ; ]
Here is that early morning warthog as detailed by Sir Jerry, entrance at right ribs and exit at left neck-shoulder juncture:
Entrance wound:
Exit wound behind left ear in this view:
Lessee now, if MV was 2518 fps for the 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer with BC said to be 0.419 and rifle was zeroed for 200-yards, and warthog was at 174 yards ... impact velocity and trajectory ordinate, and remaining KE are pending a ballistic calculator tool ...
Man, oh, man this bullet has it all, zeroed for DG at 25 yards, and back on zero at 200 yards. Point and shoot warthogs to 250 yards.
404-gr Shock Hammer from 24" barrel of .458 WM+ 2518 fps, as per Sir Jerry:
BC = .419 1.5" sight height
Max ordinate = 2.56" at 113 yards Launch angle = 0*06'18" Point Blank Range = 250 yards Zeroed at 200 yards (199.8 yards)
0 yards: -1.5" 2518 fps KE 5687 ft-lbs 25 yds: +0.05" 2466 fps KE 5456 ft-lbs 50 yds: +1.24" 2415 fps KE 5232 ft-lbs 75 yds: +2.06" 2365 fps KE 5015 ft-lbs
100 yds: +2.49" 2315 fps KE 4806 ft-lbs 150 yds: +2.13" 2217 fps KE 4408 ft-lbs 200 yds: -0.01" 2121 fps KE 4037 ft-lbs 250 yds: -4.08" 2029 fps KE 3691 ft-lbs 300 yds: -10.26" 1938 fps KE 3370 ft-lbs 350 yds: -18.76" 1850 fps KE 3071 ft-lbs 400 yds: -29.79" 1765 fps KE 2794 ft-lbs
Supersonic to about 900 yards.
The 400-gr CEB brass FN solid with same powder charge shoots only a few fps faster at the muzzle, and lands at 50 yards within a fraction of an inch from the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
that sounded like a great trip, going to SA this next April for Kudu, Warthog,Zebra Blue Wildebeest and a cow Cape buff, just received my first 404 Shock Hammers this past Monday and loaded them up at 80 gr of AA2230 for length 3.377 (if I remember correctly) velocity was 2446 at 13 feet should be I think about 2460fps sighted in 1 inch high at 50 yards. I wanted to take these out to 200 and 300 yards but off the bench was starting to get a head ache so will wait till next week. talked with Steve at Hammer the other day and kind of looks like they will not be making a 400 solid at this time. so congrats on the safari and nice write up. Sir James
Sir Larry, Heh-heh, the two boo-boo bullets in the batch of CEB FNs was explained by Sam at B&M. The stub ends of the brass rods. I am eternally grateful to Doc M for getting CEB to make that 400-gr brass FN bullet. What a job !, Rushed through so fast that a couple of bullet stubs were not sorted out, in the sorting, heh-heh. Machining was great: 400.08 grains mean for 10 bullets, all within 399.8 to 400.2 grains. That much variation could come from the metallurgy, eh ?
Will load some more .458 B&M+ loads with those, fully interchangeable with .458 WM+ loads, as long as COL is 0.260" difference.
400-gr FN: 2.990" COL in the .458 B&M+ for magazine feeding = 3.250" COL in the .458 WM+ 404-gr SH: 3.220" COL in the .458 B&M+ for single loading = 3.480" COL in the .458 WM+
So here is data for the .458 B&M+ with 16.875" barrel, using TAC, that can be used in the .458 WM+:
So, I am going to see if the short-barreled .458 B&M+ can get to 2300 fps with the 400-gr FN which might be close to 2500 fps in the 24"-barreled .458 WM+, even if it takes 3.350" COL to get there, heh-heh. I am still waiting for that Pac-Nor 1:10" twist barrel to turn into a 20" to 24" .458 WM+ Mauser, New Fugly. No, I have not gone totally off the deep end on the short-barrels, still waffling.
Shorter barrels in the .375 & 458's, I am a fan. But, the 20-22" are my comfort lengths so far. So, I am at the moderate shortness level. I do like the compactness of the pistol cartridge lever guns in 16-1/4" lengths.
Hooray ! Pac-Nor shipped my barrel yesterday. Ought to be here by Halloween to become a .458 WM+ on an FN Mauser action. Same rifling as on the .458 B&M+, but is a no. 5 sporter instead of no. 4 sporter. That will provide another comparison of short barrel to longer barrel for velocity. This assumes the .458 B&M+ with 3.000" COL is equivalent to the .458 WM+ with 3.260" COL, etc.
Man, oh, man this bullet has it all, zeroed for DG at 25 yards, and back on zero at 200 yards. Point and shoot warthogs to 250 yards.
404-gr Shock Hammer from 24" barrel of .458 WM+ 2518 fps, as per Sir Jerry:
BC = .419 1.5" sight height
Max ordinate = 2.56" at 113 yards Launch angle = 0*06'18" Point Blank Range = 250 yards Zeroed at 200 yards (199.8 yards)
0 yards: -1.5" 2518 fps KE 5687 ft-lbs 25 yds: +0.05" 2466 fps KE 5456 ft-lbs 50 yds: +1.24" 2415 fps KE 5232 ft-lbs 75 yds: +2.06" 2365 fps KE 5015 ft-lbs
100 yds: +2.49" 2315 fps KE 4806 ft-lbs 150 yds: +2.13" 2217 fps KE 4408 ft-lbs 200 yds: -0.01" 2121 fps KE 4037 ft-lbs 250 yds: -4.08" 2029 fps KE 3691 ft-lbs 300 yds: -10.26" 1938 fps KE 3370 ft-lbs 350 yds: -18.76" 1850 fps KE 3071 ft-lbs 400 yds: -29.79" 1765 fps KE 2794 ft-lbs
Supersonic to about 900 yards.
The 400-gr CEB brass FN solid with same powder charge shoots only a few fps faster at the muzzle, and lands at 50 yards within a fraction of an inch from the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
You're dead on with that ballistics program Sir Ron, i was exactly 10 inches low on the 300 yard steel prior to going on Safari, if it'll open down to 1850 the 404 Hammer is indeed an all game bullet out to 350 long yards, and that's exactly the cut off range i had in mind shooting off sticks for this trip, great stuff!
Hooray ! Pac-Nor shipped my barrel yesterday. Ought to be here by Halloween to become a .458 WM+ on an FN Mauser action. Same rifling as on the .458 B&M+, but is a no. 5 sporter instead of no. 4 sporter. That will provide another comparison of short barrel to longer barrel for velocity. This assumes the .458 B&M+ with 3.000" COL is equivalent to the .458 WM+ with 3.260" COL, etc.
10-4 on the big Pac-Nor, that'll make a dandy on that FN 98.
Ironman, Glad you have dug out of the post safari pit enough to post again. You are a legend. Cue Tennessee Ernie Ford singing "Big Jerry" but with lyrics about safari ...
Here is something funny. The .458 B&M+ with 16.875" barrel gave 2367 fps MV with the 404-gr Shock Hammer and a charge of 80.0 grains of AA-2230. That is in a Pac-Nor 1:10" twist stainless "Super Match." I SWAG that increasing the length to 24" would add 150 fps. Velocity would become 2517 fps. Just 1 fps below your fps for the Safari Load.
The new Pac-Nor will be installed on a .458 WM+ Mauser, 24". .458 B&M+ is same as .458 WM+, only shorter. Of course, I will have to compare the AA-2460 max load to the AA-2230 standard load with the 404-gr Shock Hammer as well as the 400-gr CEB #13 FN.
Western Powders data shows 80.0 grains of AA-2230 as a very safe maximum load with 400-gr Ol’Barnes Original SSSP loaded to COL of 3.140″ in a 24″-barreled .458 WinMag of 1:14″ twist Winchester case, F-215 primer, AA-2230 charge of 80.0 grains MV = 2452 fps chamber pressure = 52,746 psi That is a much shorter bullet than the solid brass FN 400-grainer. That might be a factor. Whatever, I have great results with 80.0 grains of AA-2230.
If you are loading the .458 B&M to 2.990″ COL with the 400-gr #13 FN, you need to load the .458 WinMag to 3.250″ COL to give equivalence. Using Norma .458 B&M brass will also require using Norma .458 WinMag brass, etc.
Here is what I got with my .458 B&M+ 16.875″ barrel of 1:10″ twist:
This was fire forming with new brass from R-P .300 RUM as per MIB instructions for the .458 B&M. Accuracy will be better with proper brass, once-fired, etc., of course. This was the best of my four loads yesterday:
The fact that I was able to get 3 out of 4 of the standard deviations below 5 fps for a 5-shot group is promising. H4198 did do better than AA-2230 in that regard, but this is such a small sample, no conclusions until tried with post-fire-forming brass.
Simple color-coding of primers, with Sharpie markers,to identify the two fixed powder charges used:
Fired primer appearance, little difference between the two powder charges, with the two different bullets:
No brass extrusion at the ejector slot of boltface, no stickiness. I consider these good loads. I expect that 2367 fps with the 404-gr Shock Hammer in a 16.875″ barrel will become 2517 fps in a 24″ barrel, whether .458 B&M+ at 3.220″ COL or .458 WM+ at 3.480″ COL. Pac-Nor 24" .458 WM+ Mauser, yep, I can always cut it shorter if it is too cumbersome, heh-heh.
AA-2230 primers above, H4198 primers below:
Running QuickLOAD for barrel shortening might be one of the things it is good for, noting no absolutes and it depends, some 18″ rifles are faster than some 22″ rifles, and so on. Doing that simulation for H4198 and AA-2230 fps in a 24″ barrel and a 16.875″ barrel, H4198 was 100% burnt in 16.875″, AA-2230 was only 99.44% burnt in 16.875″ barrel. H4198 lost 147 fps from the chopping. AA-2230 lost 150 fps from same barrel shortening.
Results agree very well with what has been reported for the shortening of the MIB .458 WinMag from 24″ to 20″.
H4198 load giving 2424 fps with 400-gr bullet in 24″ barrel: 24″ to 22″ loses 17 fps per inch 22″ to 20″ loses 19.5 fps per inch 20″ to 18″ loses 22.5 fps per inch 18″ to 16.875″ loses 25.8 fps per inch.
AA-2230 load giving 2493 fps with 400-gr bullet in 24″ barrel: 24″ to 22″ loses 17.5 fps per inch 22″ to 20″ loses 20 fps per inch 20″ to 18″ loses 22.5 fps per inch 18″ to 16.875″ loses 26.7 fps per inch.
My comments: This data compared to the standard (short-throated) .458 B&M with 20″ barrel makes perfect sense. I lose a little more velocity than expected from the shortening of the barrel only. Expected loss is 75 fps due to barrel shortening from 20″ to 16.875″. From 20″ to 18″ = -45 fps, from 18″ to 16.875″ = -30 fps. 45 fps + 30 fps = 75 fps. Maybe 5 fps is lost to faster twist, and whatever else may be attributed to longer throat, when comparing the standard .458 B&M loads fired in the .458 B&M+ Long Throat + Fast Twist.
The long throat allows making up for excess losses when we can add more powder safely.
If one should ever run a SAAMI .458 WinMag reamer into one of his .458 B&M rifles to re-throat it, I SWAG he would find that AA-2230 gives higher velocity at lower pressure than H4198 does. Free bore reduces pressure and creates the internal-ballistic effect of greater net case capacity, not just imaginary.
Shortening from 24″ to 20″ also would produce only about 75 fps loss, with proper handloads. Therefore, a 24″ barreled .458 B&M+ would be about 150 fps faster than my .458 B&M+ with 16.875″ barrel. A 2350 fps load in the short barrel becomes a 2500 fps load in the 24″ barrel, with 400-grain bullets. That is the result many of us get with our SAAMI .458 WM rifles with 24″ barrel, and non-SAAMI handloads. Shucks, we might be over 60,000 psi by a little, and also might be a tad longer than 3.340″ COL with some loads. No worse for the wear than with a SAAMI .458 Lott.
The 2350 fps MV 404-gr Shock Hammer gives up only 75 yards to the 2500 fps MV load with same bullet. At 75 yards the faster load is down to 2347 fps, if G1 BC = 0.419.
The difference is even less with the lower BC 400-gr #13 FN, less than 30 yards advantage for 150 fps extra velocity, if G1 BC = 0.170. At 30 yards the 2500 fps MV load is down to 2349 fps.
Yep, critters will hardly be able to tell the difference, whether you are shooting short barrel or long barrel.
Ironman, Glad you have dug out of the post safari pit enough to post again. You are a legend. Cue Tennessee Ernie Ford singing "Big Jerry" but with lyrics about safari ...
Here is something funny. The .458 B&M+ with 16.875" barrel gave 2367 fps MV with the 404-gr Shock Hammer and a charge of 80.0 grains of AA-2230. That is in a Pac-Nor 1:10" twist stainless "Super Match." I SWAG that increasing the length to 24" would add 150 fps. Velocity would become 2517 fps. Just 1 fps below your fps for the Safari Load.
The new Pac-Nor will be installed on a .458 WM+ Mauser, 24". .458 B&M+ is same as .458 WM+, only shorter. Of course, I will have to compare the AA-2460 max load to the AA-2230 standard load with the 404-gr Shock Hammer as well as the 400-gr CEB #13 FN.
LOL, ironman these days is a quickly fading memory, i may have been a pretty good dog 30 years ago, but holy crap, "Papa Time" is a damn thief!
This is all very good stuff, you keep fooling with those 16 barreled rifles, you'll have to book a hunt in dot head land for a giant Gaur in the magic carpet land thickets ; ]
Sir Jerry, If you are feeling your age, you just need to rest up a bit more. Gaur ... now that is one heck of a bovine fantasy. Mercy bo coops.
I think a 16.9" .458 B&M+ will tone it down at the muzzle to about what your 24" .458 WM+ was doing at 75 yards. Knocking off about 150 fps at the muzzle might allow a lower impact velocity on long shots at game. Gotta handicap the 404-gr Shock Hammer somehow. Might have to slow it down even more to catch one.
Halloween should be a treat for me when the Pac-Nor barrel arrives, then we shall get back to .458 WM+.
LOL, i am Sir, decided to give the deer a break this morning, will take the mighty 58 cal round ball Hawken for the final walk this evening as MZ season closes, cant wait to see/read about the new FN 458 WM+..............also, if you get tired of looking at that stone fox Ruger 400 Whelen, i have vault space ; ]
I am soon seeing a Master Gunsmith/Mechanical Engineer, no extended pinky finger stuff except on his flintlocks. I will ask him how it goes.
I have one like yours and do not have the heart to change it. Perfect little .338 WinMag under 7 pounds bare/empty. I do have the heart to change this one, soon as the FN M98 is done:
The stock on the MRC is not as good as the one on the All Weather M70 (B&C). No bedding block, but I will make do. At least it will be easier to hog out the barrel channel for a fluted N0.6 Sporter (or fatter) if I can find one. It will be no light weight. Make it 24" long, of course.
I am taking up Revolutionary War Re-enacting. Went to a grave marking of my ancestor yesterday, near Berry's Lick, KY. I wore a tri-corner hat and street clothes. Even dressed so, they let me march in the color guard and carry one of the 16 battle flags. Said I could go buckskinner next time. No $3000 uniform required. I can use my Beck-School Flintlock Rifle made by the same Builder of my .458 WinMags, instead of a Brown Bess. No, I will not be allowed to carry a .458 WinMag, even if I load it with a BP blank.
Reverence was had by all. Enoch and Margaret had 12 children including an Enoch, Jr., if I am reading that correctly. That is some reverence right there. They think Enoch Berry, Senior is buried within a 6-mile radius of the marker.
Sir Ron, It’s actually a Winchester Ultimate Shadow, which comes in an unfluted barrel. I’ve always like 338s and 340s but like them less today. This rifle is just sitting in one of my safes not doing anything so I figured I’d turn it into a 458. I’d probably just make it a 21 inch 458. I usually make my length of pull 13.25” and put some sort of decent visibility shallow V sights on it. The stock would have to go. I am knee deep in rifle projects but I guess the more being worked on the more likely I’ll get one back sooner then later. Stainless barrel cerakote. Any ideas on who can do 458 work with sights would help. Regarding your reenactment adventure, that is really really cool. It’s fun talking to some of those guys! S.
Sir smallfry, Rusty McGee is a year older than me and a year wiser. He thinks life is too short to work on any guns except those of customers he meets face-to-face. Lucky me. Sounds like you have several gunsmiths working for you out west. Don't suppose you want to visit Rusty in person, do you ?
I had the new barrel for about 3 hours before driving it over to Rusty today, to be installed on the FN Mauser:
1:10" twist is a special purpose twist for the .458 WM. My plan is for subsonic loads with common low-BC bullets of any weight up to 600 grains, suppressed, and supersonic loads with some VLD bullets of any weight short enough in length to stabilize. That is to be determined, 575-grainers for sure, heavier maybe.
1:10" twist is not meant for use with cast bullets. The standard 1:14" twist is good for that with hardcast sized to .461" using smokeless powders. Slower twist (1:18" to 1:20") might be better for softer alloys and paper-patched with BP in the .458 WinMag, and 1:14" is passing good there too.
A chicken in every pot and a .458 WinMag (or a dozen) in every gun safe is what I say.
Sir Ron I thought Rusty was in Texas! I will have to determine barrels, stock, bottom metal and sights… and find someone to screw it together. I really don’t quite understand something though… the front and rear bridge and hole spacing. Will the modern 338 action M70 need the rear bridge cut? And… do I use a standard reamer? S.
1-12 should work fine with properly sized, + 2 thousandths cast either well lubed or painted at 1400-2000 fps in the Magnificent 458 WM. I also shoot quite a few 30-06 cast at 1-10 at same velocities and that works fine too. What Ron says is in the correct direction though, he is not intending to use his 1-10 458 for cast when he has a plethora of 1-14's that will be better for that purpose. Gentler RPM is better on cast most folks agree.
Sir Dennis, you are probably right on, I just have not tried the hardcast in a 1:12" twist, but I do have one such barrel on a .458/.338 Lapua Magnum. I might give it a try later, after deer season and fall chores.
Probably would work OK in a 1:10" twist if 600-grainer used at 1100 fps. PC-painted, gas-checked and sized to .461". Substitute them for the preliminary workup for some of the jacketed 600-grainers and suppressor use.
Lots of mention of longer barrels but I think a rifleman needs to decide what best suits as I find the standard 22" barrel on the Model 70 makes the rifle feel maneuverable and that can be a plus in dense timber and brush hunting where fast reflexes are an asset.
Having said that, I wouldn't be against a pair of .458's with one barrel longer than 22" for ballistic sake, of course.
Speaking of 22"-barreled .458 WinMag glory, that circa 1968 pushfeed M70 .458 WM was the real star of the 1971 movie DIRTY HARRY. It had a 22″ barrel and retained the “African” model rear sight (like on the original 25-incher) to fake everybody out:
Counter-sniper night-op on church roof in San Francisco. Who would have thought they would have a church in San Francisco ? Must have been a Church of Satan.
Both Finn Aagaard and Harry Selby used the pushfeed M70 .458 WM in Africa quite a bit.
I bought a pushfeed M70 .458 WinMag with 22″ barrel in 1984, while living in Missouri, where elephant control was rarely needed. I was at least 50 miles east of the Kansas City Zoo. The African rear sight had been long since replaced with the XTR-type fold-down.
Wisner was making those reproduction African rear sights for use on the Weatherby DGR. Weatherby went to a different rear sight for the later DGR Mark V rifles, so Wisner quit churning them out. He had gotten down to only two in stock when I called him, and said he did not know when or if there would be another run. I bought those two. Honestly, I prefer a fold down rear sight so as not to be in the way of peep sight use. Sacrilege, I know.
Cut a 24" barrel to 22" and you only lose about 35 fps MV, cut a 22" barrel to 20" and you lose another 40 fps. And so it goes, losing a little more per inch below 20" of barrel length, for each further inch of shortening of the .458 WM, all other factors in the rifle and ammo being constant.
So, for the latest data below, from MIB, for 20"-barreled .458 WM M70 shooting the new 400-gr brass FN #13 from CEB, add 75 fps for 24"-barreled MV, if all other factors in rifle and ammo were constant. Some rifles are faster than others and some might get 100 fps more in a 24" barrel than this 20-incher .458 WM:
Note how increasing the COL from 3.185" to 3.290" prevented bulging the case in compressing the 78.0-gr charge of AA-2460 powder ! With the longer COL by 0.105" the pressure dropped only 700 psi but MV (by LabRadar) went up by 2 fps : 60,800 psi and 2342 fps MV for the 3.290" COL. There is much picking of the black pepper needed here.
Powders behave differently for sure. All loads are to be considered as done with Winchester brass and F-215 primer unless specified otherwise. MV by Lab radar unless specified otherwise.
Now for an eye opener, consider 80.0 grains of AA-2230, same day measurements on 11/03/2022:
COL 3.185": 57,800 psi >>> 2368 fps COL 3.290": 61,100 psi >>> 2399 fps
Pressure and MV both increased with the 0.105" decompression of the AA-2230. Apparently AA-2230 does not like compression. 2400 fps from a 20" barrel is perfect at 3.290" with the 400-gr FN 24" barrel would be 2475 to 2500 fps MV depending on speediness of rifle.
Make the COL 3.250" to 3.350" in the .458 WM+ with the 400-gr brass FN#13 from CEB. Check out the TAC loads above: 80-, 82-, 84-, 86-grain loads. COLs 3.180" to 3.290", TAC behaves predictably. No bulged cases when COL increased. Pressure and velocity dropped with COL increase. Adding enough powder back allowed increased MV and submaximal pressure for a SAAMI .458 WM load even with compression of the TAC, no fly poop to pick out of this Blue Pepper.
84.0 gr TAC: 3.290" COL: 53,700 psi >>> 2369 fps (0 fps ES for 2 shots)
86.0 gr TAC: 3.290" COL: 58,700 psi >>> 2418 fps (7 fps ES for 2 shots)
24" MV with 400-gr brass FN #13: Even closer to 2500 fps at lower pressure !
Dang, if I didn't have 24 pounds of AA-2230 I would be stocking up on TAC.
For the even lighter bullet fans, more MIB data:
Good ol' H4198 is good enough for me with any 250-gr to 350-gr .458-caliber bullets.
Lots of mention of longer barrels but I think a rifleman needs to decide what best suits as I find the standard 22" barrel on the Model 70 makes the rifle feel maneuverable and that can be a plus in dense timber and brush hunting where fast reflexes are an asset.
Having said that, I wouldn't be against a pair of .458's with one barrel longer than 22" for ballistic sake, of course.
I have seemed to landed on 22" lengths in 458's. I am debating on a re-bore to 458 Winchester. The present barrel is around 21-3/4". I may leave as is, or go to ~20-3/4". Which would be just behind the rear screw of the front sight on this M70 Frankenstein rifle. I leaning towards, waiting until after the re-bore is done. Then make that decision. Heck, I still have to decide, 1-10 or 1-12" on the rate of twist.
I tried to learn to ski on a Colorado bunny slope when I was well past 60 years old. One bounce of my helmeted head off the hard ice of the slope and I was done. Kids practically teach themselves to ski, and it is with them for life, bless their hearts and destroyed knees. I still have good knees, despite a mere lateral collateral ligament sprain from side-hilling on moss-slippery rocks while hunting pigs with a spear in Tennessee. It healed well. I value my knees too much to try snow skiing again. Might do it on water ... used to be able to water ski ... I learned that as a kid.
Sir Jerry revealed the secret to .458 WinMag shooting skill in the recent ".378 WbyMag Recoil" thread: Start young.
Originally Posted by gunner500
Bought a Mark V in 1987 at Carter Country Sports in Houston for 800 bucks, the guy had me take it out back to their range to fire it to make sure i knew what i was about to get my young self into, my right thumb popped my nose pretty well, i came back in with a smile and said i'll take it.
It had already been tapped 8-40 screws, guy mounted dual dovetail bases and rings, a gloss 2-7 Leupold lived on that rifle till i shot the barrel out, great rifle i loaded 235 speers, 270 hornadys, 300gr Sierra, Hornady and partitions, great round, have a bud after more race car parts, he has a 340, 378 and a monster 460, all with brass, dies and powder, a damn big Mark V may be falling in my lap again, recoil isnt bad at all, although recoil velocity is very fast, as is muzzle blast, that may be where some of the concern with the round comes from.
Sir Jerry, If you come across a spare .460 Wby I will swap a .400 Whelen for it, give you some boot. It would be a hoot. I was almost 30 years old when my first .460 Wby taught me how nice the .458 WinMag was. Sorry I got rid of it now. I would use the .460 Wby just to see if the 404-gr Shock Hammer can break 3000 fps, a lot of fuss for an extra 500 fps, just for a hoot. So will add once a year on my birthday, shoot it for group with my old accuracy load of 500-grainer at 2500 fps.
LOL, will do Sir Ron, old race car bud has his eye on one of my spare new old stock Mert Littlefield 14-71 Super Charger with high-helix Kobelco rotors and a Enderle hat alcohol injector, he may wind up having to pile up all those Weatherbys, brass and dies as well as a wheelbarrow fulla gun powder to get them, he did say the big 460 has 10 brand new boxes of brass in the Weatherby Elephant boxes. ...............200 sticks ought to damn well do it all for a 460 WBY LOL!
500 grains at 2500 fps would certainly keep the icing on a birthday cake nice and melted year after year ; ]
Sir Jerry, What a renaissance man you are ! Your race car parts would make a NASCAR champ drool. Just guessing since it sounds like you are speaking a foreign language to my level of understanding. Thanks.
LOL, onewithnosenseman is what i be Sir Ron, those are alcohol drag race Hemi parts, Keith Black and TFX blocked fire breathing monsters, best run back in the day when i did that was 6.60 sec and 221 mph in the quarter mile at Tulsa............................now back to the fun, think i'm going to take the old FN Safari Browning saami spec'd 458 WM for a few walks this season, deer, one particular monster boar black bear and pigs best beware, it's old load with 500gr partitions at 2166 fps over H-335 is still a poleaxer!
Well now, that would have been a hell of a ride. Short but Way fast !!
I still admire those Browning FN Safari rifles. I drooled and blank stared over those when I was a kid. Then in the early 90's they were fairly common around here on the used racks. Just did not have the money to spend on them at the time. I still recall a 458 Winchester that I held during those times.
I have never bought a 458 in the FN Safari. But, I did a 30-06 type in excellent condition a few years ago. The only alteration being a Decelerator pad on the butt.
The standard magazine version 458 Winchester, is a mighty fine round. The very good to great 350 & 400 grain bullets certainly add to the versatility.
Yep, FN Mauser .458 WinMag in the hands of Ron "Mahohboh" Thomson probably culled more elephants than any other single rifle in history, about 6000. More than any "double rifle" too, heh-heh.
For those obsessed with short barrel and light weight, here is my experience with my two lightest and shortest rifles of equal cartridge ballistics, 6#10oz .458 B&M with 16.9" barrel and 7#10oz .458 WM with 23" barrel reported at the B&M site, copied here:
Assuming same scope and ammo load on the 6#10oz rifle and the 7#10oz rifle (add 1#6oz to each rifle) and easily obtainable velocities with same powder charge and bullet:
16.9″-barreled, 8-pound field-ready rifle with 400-gr bullet at 2350 fps with 80 grains of powder: Recoil = 68.7 ft-lbs @ 23.5 fps 23″-barreled, 9-pound field ready rifle with 400-gr bullet at 2500 fps with 80 grains of powder: Recoil = 66.8 ft-lbs @ 21.8 fps
Velocity loss from my barrel shortening does not reduce recoil as much as the 1-pound reduction in weight increases recoil. Slightly more recoil with the shorter barrel if velocity loss was 150 fps with the 6.1″ barrel shortening, observed between these two rifles, with barrel differences: 16.9″ Pac-Nor 1:10″ twist .458 B&M+ 23″ McGowen 1:14″ twist .458 WM+
Not enough difference for most insensitive brutes to perceive at shoulder. The midget rifle will kick a little harder and need a 75-yard handicap to be on par with the longer barrel.
The average .458 WM with 24" barrel will be closer to 10 pounds scoped and topped off with ammo. Recoil of the 10-pounder for the speedy 400-grainer versus the classic 500-grainer:
400-grainer at 2500 fps with 80 grains of powder: Recoil = 60.1 ft-lbs @ 19.66 fps
500-grainer at 2150 fps with 72 grains of powder: Recoil = 63.4 ft-lbs @ 20.2 fps
(500-gr Hornady RNSN load: 72.0 gr AA-2230, 3.305" COL, not compressed, 53,808 psi, 24" barrel, Winchester brass, F-215 primer. The 400-gr speedy load may require .458 WM+ handloading techniques, but is easily accomplished even from a short magazine box by single loading the standard SAAMI .458 WinMag. No SAAMI .458 Lott need apply, please. Recoil will be heavier with the Lott because more powder will be required to do the same MV as the .458 WinMag can do at modest pressure.)
For elephant hunting, us sissy boys would rather use a 400-gr brass FN solid at 2500 fps from a .458 WM/.458 WM+. 3.3 ft-lbs less recoil is detectable at the shoulder by us sensitive types. That is 5.2% less recoil. It hurts our shoulders that much less than a 500-gr bullet at 2150 fps from a SAAMI .458 WinMag. And a .458 Lott firing a 500-grainer at 2150 fps hurts even more, boo hoo.
I still have 21 left of a box of 50, 330gr Barnes Banded Solids. They are solid brass or bronze. I tested a bunch of .458" bullets in Oct/2017. The test media was 15.5 inches of dry hardcovers and magazines, plus 2 wood planks. The 330gr Barnes Banded leaving the muzzle of my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT at 2400 fps MV, hit the first box at around 2370 and penetrated the full 15.5" like the proverbial "hot knife through butter" and was lost in the background, never to be found. In comparison, a 350gr Hornady FT was stopped at 4" and lost its core, just the flattened jacket left. Its MV was 2250. A 500gr SPEER AGS was stopped at 6", losing its front core, weighing 310gr.
The hole made by the 330gr was bullet size in a straight line out the back of the second and last box. It may still be going. The FDA (?), or whomever, told Barnes they couldn't make those flat-nose brass bullets anymore... they were too dangerous.
330gr BBS = 1.025" length, meplat = .30", shank = .445", bands = .4565". They were slightly undersize.
I have an upcoming new test from the Ruger No.1H in .458 in a similar test setup at the same location as soon as the deer hunters are done - and the weather cooperates: 600gr Barnes, 550gr Woodleigh, 500gr DGX and 250gr Monoflex, and (added) the 450gr AF. (any predictions?) I predict that the 500gr DGX will out-penetrate the 600gr Barnes and 550gr Woodleigh, and probably the 450 AF.
In the test of 2017, the 480gr DGX (pre-bonding), it too sailed through that former setup, like the 330gr BBS, impacted a ledge beyond and left a perfect imprint of its nose - it too was never found!
From all accounts that I am aware of the Barnes 330 grain was a very good bullet. Agree, too bad they are no longer available. No bets placed. Though, I will be surprised if the 450 A-Frame does not perform well in that line up.
"I have an upcoming new test from the Ruger No.1H in .458 in a similar test setup at the same location as soon as the deer hunters are done - and the weather cooperates: 600gr Barnes, 550gr Woodleigh, 500gr DGX and 250gr Monoflex, and (added) the 450gr AF. (any predictions?) I predict that the 500gr DGX will out-penetrate the 600gr Barnes and 550gr Woodleigh, and probably the 450 AF.
You are going to have to tell us what MV you are starting each bullet. Is the 500-gr DGX the Bonded one ? Should be interesting, whatever you do with those bullets.
Well now, that would have been a hell of a ride. Short but Way fast !!
I still admire those Browning FN Safari rifles. I drooled and blank stared over those when I was a kid. Then in the early 90's they were fairly common around here on the used racks. Just did not have the money to spend on them at the time. I still recall a 458 Winchester that I held during those times.
I have never bought a 458 in the FN Safari. But, I did a 30-06 type in excellent condition a few years ago. The only alteration being a Decelerator pad on the butt.
The standard magazine version 458 Winchester, is a mighty fine round. The very good to great 350 & 400 grain bullets certainly add to the versatility.
Yes Sir, tried to find a hobby after i retired that would feed an old adrenalin rush habit i was hooked on, drag racing is not scary enough LOL, will be at the shop again in the morning, putting finishing touches on a '69 year model Chrysler 440 block, just a simple 0.030 over aluminum headed roller street build, should make 550 HP on the dyno, will be fun in the old '69 roadrunner street car with A833 4 speed.
I love the FN Safari Brownings too, i got near 2300 fps with a 500gr partition at 3.340 inch, took a drop tube and AA-2460, but it made it, that would be a hell of a saami spec all game load, that '06 sounds like a dandy.
404gr Hammers paired with a good 400gr flat nosed solid would indeed do it all, especially at 2500+ fps.
There Sir Jerry goes again, talkin' way over my header. Drag racing lingo of which I am ignorant. Oh well, I'll stick to busting rocks and such. Speaking of which ...
Remember that a .458 B&M+ with COL of 3.220" with the 404-gr Hammer has same case capacity as a .458 WM+ with COL of 3.480" with same bullet. So this is like Sir Jerry's Safari load. The 16.9" barrel makes it about 150 fps slower at the muzzle than a 24" barrel. The shorter and fatter .458 B&M case is possibly more efficient than the longer and skinnier cases, especially the .458 Lott, heh-heh.
If I can slow the 16.9" barrel down to 2350 fps MV, impact velocity will be down to 1795 fps at 300 yards. Realistic range for me to hit a deer. Should work on deer the size of elk and moose out to that range. Step it up to Sir Jerry's +2500 fps MV and make it a 400-yard elk and moose hammer, 404-gr Shock Hammer. I can keep a magazine full of the 400-gr FN from CEB at 2.990" COL in the M70 WSM action, and a buttstock carrier full of 3.220" COL Hammers for single loading.
Yep, makes a good gun for deploying from inside a sleeping bag when the big bear presses his nose on your tent. Great for latrine duty too as a "Dunny Gunny" where it is advisable to have no longer than a 20" barrel length, like on the Ruger Hawkeye Alaskans in .416 and .375 Ruger:
Some countries won't let a single hunter bring 2 rifles of same chambering. Good backup for the .458 WM+ when you are not allowed to bring two of them. Gotta get that shoat rifle shooting more accurately. All of my longer-barreled .458 WM+ rifles and loads have done better, But they were in rifles that were glass bedded properly. The .458 B&M+ shoat is being used dropped into Tupperware with original hotglue bedding crumbling there. Time to properly epoxy bed it in ... maybe the Ultimate Shadow plastic stock that has been "re-textured" with truck bed coating paint.
There is no greater good than keeping the peace and no place where peace is more valuable than in the outhouse. So; said another way; “there is no mere duty.” Duty always bears the same weight. F01
"I have an upcoming new test from the Ruger No.1H in .458 in a similar test setup at the same location as soon as the deer hunters are done - and the weather cooperates: 600gr Barnes, 550gr Woodleigh, 500gr DGX and 250gr Monoflex, and (added) the 450gr AF. (any predictions?) I predict that the 500gr DGX will out-penetrate the 600gr Barnes and 550gr Woodleigh, and probably the 450 AF.
You are going to have to tell us what MV you are starting each bullet. Is the 500-gr DGX the Bonded one ? Should be interesting, whatever you do with those bullets.
Sir Ron,
The idea is to have all four bullets (600gr, 550gr, 500gr and 450gr) hit the medium with approximately the same energy (3300 - 3400 ft-lbs). This will be at a simulated hunting range hit of between 150 to 200 yards - of course, BC of each will be a significant factor in that, so I'm leaning on what is published. Momentum will rank in order from the heaviest (600gr) to the lightest (450gr). Penetration and general destruction of the media (at 5 yards) will be recorded as well as bullet weight retained. The 250gr MonoFlex will be an entity unto itself - that will be my current hunting load. The 500 DGX is bonded.
The 500-gr DGX-Bonded should be the greatest penetrator of the listed softs. 250-gr Monoflex will go less than half as deep. This is my SWAG, from deepest to shallowest: 500-gr DGX-Bonded 450-gr AF 550-gr RNSN 600-gr B.O. 250-gr Monoflex
If it's not a blizzard or hurricane, I'll be starting the test on Monday, Nov 21, one week from today. We've had very good weather for the latter part of October and early November. Lately it has turned much colder with some light snow.
I think Sir Ron's SWAG will be close.
The media will be nearly 2 feet of tightly packed dry, glossy magazines. MV will be to simulate impact ranges of 160 to 190 yards depending on the BCs of the particular bullets.
The former test from my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT fired the 500gr Speer AGS and 480 DGX (non-bonded) at close to the same MV using the same load for each: 1750 for the Speer and 1780 for the DGX. As mentioned, the 500 Speer was arrested at 6.5" having lost it's front core, and the 480 DGX passed completely through impacting a ledge behind the setup leaving an imprint not larger than it's caliber. The 350 TSX penetrated the complete setup but stopped at the last panel of the last box fully expanded (15.5"). They left the muzzle at ~2470 fps.
The new test will have more depth and more magazines of at least 24" or more.
Hoping the weather cooperates, and that no other matters interfere - if so, I'll merely reschedule it.
Sir Bob, If your 500-gr DGX-Bonded had MV of 2150 fps and your test medium is like a 5,000- to 10,000-pound critter, it would probably perform like this 480-gr DGX-Bonded did, for a time-traveling dinosaur hunter working on his dinosaur grand slam. This hunter wishes to remain anonymous for reasons we do not want to discuss:
Hornady should get credit for making some good DG bullets, finally, after all these years, bless their hearts.
You bet Sir Ron, i am very thankful for them, those bullets are perfect in both double rifle regulation and performance, after the Woodleigh fire, they are the only game left in town for my old British Double, that said, and the way these two bullets acted, i can't see myself going back to Woodleigh in this double, the flat nosed solids do penetrate deeper AND straighter than the round nose, i also don't believe the round nosed Weldcore softs would go as deep as this bonded DGX did, great, great performance at 2148 fps from the old doubles 26" barrels.
Sometime in April of this year I came across a rare find at my favorite gun emporium: some boxes (50 count each) of 550gr Woodleigh Weldcore SPs, Barnes Original 600s and Hornady 500gr DGX. The Barnes Os had 20 each per box - I bought two at $34.99 each, and one box each of the Woodleighs and Hornadys, at $97.99 for the 50 Woodleighs and $2 more for 50 DGXs. So that worked out to about $2 per bullet, plus tax, including the 550 Woodleighs which, according to the date of manufacture on the box, were made in June/96.
So far, only one (1) of those 140 bullets has been fired - a 550 Woodleigh over 48 grains of 5744 at a recorded 1657 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle on June 10/22. Two others have been loaded the same for tests. Plus 3 of the 550s over 64 grains of H4895. Three 600gr Barnes are loaded with 48 grains of 5744, and three 500 DGX over 64 grains of H4895, plus three 450gr Swifts over 65 grains of H4895. The 250gr MonoFlexs sit on 65 grains 5744 (that has been tried at the range several times and sighted in my Ruger .458 for bear at ~2680 fps. I might yet add the 450 TSX to this test.
But overnight, we just had our first snow storm (not flurries). Not a lot - about 10 cm (4"), and flurries are forcast for the rest of the week with temps just hovering the freezing mark. But I'm still planning on the test, God willing!
Thanks Sir Ron for those pixs of the 480 Hornady's at work! It confirms my beliefs. And thanks to Sir Jerry for using them!
Hornady should get credit for making some good DG bullets, finally, after all these years, bless their hearts.
I agree also! Been enjoying their ammo for years like many others here. It just seems that they really do try to take their products to the next level. Great Quality Control, that's truly missing from much of society, and what we buy Today!
For sure, Sir Tony, Hornady deserves more respect, just like the .458 WinMag at a .458 Lottite tea party.
Here is some more good poop on the 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer. Impact velocity of 1950 fps at 200 yards, it expands perfectly explosively even on the little resistance of a little buck that needed to be removed from the gene pool:
The 24"-barreled .458 WM+ load at +2500 fps with the 404-gr Shock Hammer, as proven by Sir Jerry in Africa, has 400-yard killing potential, more potential than I am capable of.
I was shock hammered myself by the lack of blood spew from either entrance or exit wound on the deer. I was looking for a lower velocity impact here. Higher velocity impacts might show more blow back or blow out of blood. Of course this deer did not take another breath nor another step after the impact. So, there was no blowout of air from respirations while running. No blood trail is a good thing in this case.
Mercy bo coops, Sir Dennis. You doing the Jet Sled thing like me ?
The 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer is good as it gets in any .458-caliber rifle, even a .458 B&M+ with 16.9" barrel in a Tupperware stock with hotglue bedding of action lug only. Wear of electronic earmuffs is recommended when shooting supersonic, non-suppressed loads with Griffin EZ-Brake. I am going to reward the little .458 B&M+ with a new B&C Medalist stock and proper glass bedding.
Now back to full-blown .458 WM+ with adult barrel length. There will be no Lottite tea parties at The Square Table.
If, I manage 2350 fps with the 404 Hammer from my standard SAAMI 458 Winchester with 22" barrel, I should have a few fps either side of 1900 at 230 yds.
The 230 yds is my target of "long-range" bullet performance. I "think" the 2350 fps muzzle velocity will be easily obtained. I am staying conservative / reserved on my guesses, until I chronograph this rifle.
My optimistic side says 2375 Fps will be no-sweat condition achievable. The 404 Hammer bullet is #1 !!
Sir Larry, You will have absolutely no problem getting 2350 fps from a 22"-barreled .458 WM, even if you want to keep it loaded as short as 3.280" COL. That is a good plan for a DG-scope-sighted rifle. With the 404-gr SH at 2350 fps MV, if max ordinate is 3.00" at 113.28 yards, you will be dead on at 200 yards and 25 yards. Only 3" low at 235 yards. That will handle most situations. Only bullet you need except for maybe elephant or whaling.
Sir Larry, You will have absolutely no problem getting 2350 fps from a 22"-barreled .458 WM, even if you want to keep it loaded as short as 3.280" COL. That is a good plan for a DG-scope-sighted rifle. With the 404-gr SH at 2350 fps MV, if max ordinate is 3.00" at 113.28 yards, you will be dead on at 200 yards and 25 yards. Only 3" low at 235 yards. That will handle most situations. Only bullet you need except for maybe elephant or whaling.
Excellent, I see no reason for a solid in this hemisphere
Yes sir on the jet sled! I love it. With my jet sled I don’t need anybody. I might need more time but I don’t need help. I like help especially if my son is the one helping. He moved to Colorado so I’m on my own this year. I hate sitting in trees and have never used a tower but doubt I would like it. I like the ground. Rim rock or prairie hillsides, fallen trees all make me happy. I will reserve one tag for the magnificent 458WM pushing a 485 fn cast bullet again this year. She has never Failed me. Best regards, F01
Yes sir on the jet sled! I love it. With my jet sled I don’t need anybody. I might need more time but I don’t need help. I like help especially if my son is the one helping. He moved to Colorado so I’m on my own this year. I hate sitting in trees and have never used a tower but doubt I would like it. I like the ground. Rim rock or prairie hillsides, fallen trees all make me happy. I will reserve one tag for the magnificent 458WM pushing a 485 fn cast bullet again this year. She has never Failed me. Best regards, F01
Hope you bleed one with that big cast slug F01, i'm going to take my saami FN Browning 458 WM for a walk on the mountain in the morning, it's opening day here, 500 grains of Partition at 2166 awaits!
And those 500gr Partitions... are they for a whitetail, Sir Jerry? I had a chance to buy a single box recently - almost did it, but already have too many others in .458". Some expansion on deer expected?
Yes, Sir Bob, that's the only soft point load for that rifle, in the name of simplicity, it and the 450gr BBW#13 solids have the old FN well covered, it will work on deer or Cape Buffalo, i dont expect much expansion, if able, i'll angle the shot to quarter in or out or lengthways to exit.
I bought a lot of these years ago when sps ran a sale, iirc i have around 200 left, that should do it.
November 30 opening day for me! Still doing the which rifle dance but the old Whitworth will get the Nod in the first 3 days somewhere. Doe season starting Jan 1 is a certain thing for her duty time as well. F01
Excellent, I see no reason for a solid in this hemisphere"
Unless you are shooting exotics such as Water buff or Cape Buff in Texas. I used my 1895 .405 and 300 grain NF CPS at 2200 fps on Water Buff with good success. The CPS should work fine on Cape Buff too.
I used my 1886 .45-90 on Bison (450 grain NF at 2150 fps) for a shoulder shot at 45 yards: complete shoot through that dumped the running Bison head over heels. Great eating too.
Yes sir on the jet sled! I love it. With my jet sled I don’t need anybody. I might need more time but I don’t need help. I like help especially if my son is the one helping. He moved to Colorado so I’m on my own this year. I hate sitting in trees and have never used a tower but doubt I would like it. I like the ground. Rim rock or prairie hillsides, fallen trees all make me happy. I will reserve one tag for the magnificent 458WM pushing a 485 fn cast bullet again this year. She has never Failed me. Best regards, F01
Hope you bleed one with that big cast slug F01, i'm going to take my saami FN Browning 458 WM for a walk on the mountain in the morning, it's opening day here, 500 grains of Partition at 2166 awaits!
Originally Posted by crshelton
Excellent, I see no reason for a solid in this hemisphere"
Unless you are shooting exotics such as Water buff or Cape Buff in Texas. I used my 1895 .405 and 300 grain NF CPS at 2200 fps on Water Buff with good success. The CPS should work fine on Cape Buff too.
I used my 1886 .45-90 on Bison (450 grain NF at 2150 fps) for a shoulder shot at 45 yards: complete shoot through that dumped the running Bison head over heels. Great eating too.
Excellent stuff Sirs !
The 500-gr NosPart with BC = 0.389 at 2166 fps MV and 5208 ft-lbs KE will arrive at 200 yards with 1779 fps and 3512 ft-lbs. Guaranteed effective point and shoot out to 220 yards if zeroed about +2.61" at 100 yards. Recoil is only a few ft-lbs more than 404-gr SH at 2500 fps. Sir Jerry will not be able to tell the difference.
All kinds of Buffalo Medicine is welcome at The Square Table, .458-caliber preferred, of course, like Sir Charles' North Fork load.
I am going to see if I can get decent accuracy out of the 407-gr Accurate Molds hardcast/GC/PC-painted at 2500 fps. First from a .458 WM (1:14" twist) with adult length barrel. Only if necessary, I'll try them in the 1:18" and 1:20" twists of .45-100-2.6" aka .45-70 Elko Magnum. That will save on practice loads, as substitute for Shock hammers.
And now a new technique learned from the January 2023 issue of GUNS Magazine, pp. 54-55, "Beagling Bullets the bulletcaster's best friend" by Alan Garbers. He got it from John "Beagle" Goins at
This uses aluminum foil tape as shims between the mould block halves. Can add .003" to .004" to diameter of cast bullet from that mould. The bullets may not be perfectly round, but hardly any cast bullet is. They will be cast large and sized down a bit in sizers that probably are not perfectly round either, to the nearest micron. From the PDF: "Even elliptical bullets are rounded during the sizing process, especially if sized in one of the newer tapered sizer dies. Accuracy is just as good as with completely round bullets. Even though these bullets may be slightly out of round, they still maintain balance when fired."
With this technique I might be able to turn the Bagwellian Lyman PH .457"/475-grainer into a hardcast .461"/485-grain PH with which to Bagwell using smokeless loads for the .458 WM.
Agreed Sir Ron, the 500 npt is perfect for saami spec, loading it long would require rolling on another crimp groove, plus, the 450gr TSX at 2400+ and the 404gr Hammer at 2500+ have no peers imho for a soft in the 458 WM+, when one wants to load for a little extra range, they're king heavy game takers, i carried that old FN up and down the mountain twice today, had a great day, didnt see anything i wanted to burn a tag on, my tail is dragging LOL.
Speaking of dragging, mountain hunting a 458 is much easier than throwing on at least 8 ricks of firewood, had 2 rick on the pickup alone, and at least 6 on the little 20' bumper pull utility trailer, i was beat this time yesterday evening LOL, this wood is what i cut, split and piled on the hill to dry last July, the old Cow Killer red oak along with a few water oak and hickory are seasoned up and ready to keep that cold natured chicken i live with warm all winter, probably 4 rick left to load.
That 475gr Lyman greaser of Saint Bagwell's wont let you down.
Good shooting Sir Ron, and I wish you good eating as well! We have been travelling too much lately and am missing most of the first season. I will have to use my 458 on a doe when that season opens up. Then a 45C Linebaugh during pistol season. Better go load some 404's now.
We're getting hammered with a snowstorm, and it's not even winter yet, so says the calendar! Upper New York State and Southern Ontario got hit yesterday with the worst on record = 6 feet in Buffalo! My .458 (Grace) is tucked away in a nice warm place and will not likely see action until April, if this kind of weather keeps on till then!
Sir Ron thank,s for the tidbit on shimming a mold good info 👍
Found a roll of "Aluminum Foil Tape" at Menards. The foil plus paper is 0.006" thick before the non-stick paper backing is peeled off. Peel off the backing and it leaves adhesive on one side of foil. I cut a little strip off and measured thickness of the foil and adhesive only, squeezed between my calipers: 0.003" Should be fun.
... Speaking of dragging, mountain hunting a 458 is much easier than throwing on at least 8 ricks of firewood, had 2 rick on the pickup alone, and at least 6 on the little 20' bumper pull utility trailer, i was beat this time yesterday evening LOL, this wood is what i cut, split and piled on the hill to dry last July, the old Cow Killer red oak along with a few water oak and hickory are seasoned up and ready to keep that cold natured chicken i live with warm all winter, probably 4 rick left to load ...
Marital advice from Sir Jerry:
Heck, let's just call that a bit of "Cowboy Counseling," worth what you pay for it.
We're getting hammered with a snowstorm, and it's not even winter yet, so says the calendar! Upper New York State and Southern Ontario got hit yesterday with the worst on record = 6 feet in Buffalo! My .458 (Grace) is tucked away in a nice warm place and will not likely see action until April, if this kind of weather keeps on till then!
RIPing In preparation, I did go out and put 5 485's in one big hole at 50 yards over my sticks. Was nice to see them landing right where they are supposed to be so I can snipe at 250 should the need arise as it did at Sir Ron's hunt. On a less windy day, we will repeat at 200 to confirm Zero. Here on the Great Plains, one hunting the woods can still be presented the need to reach out and touch a further target on any given day. I never worry about that though as the old girl has not let me down yet. Opening day hunt has been scheduled on Public hunting grounds with ground that benefits a longer rifle so the Whitworth will be standing duty on the private farm and woods lands later in the week. I have one spot that is pretty dense, hard to hunt that others don't like so I get the run of it. Looking at retirement early 2023 and I have vacation to use in 2022 so I took the whole Deer season off. Still have to go to a leaders meeting on one day but; looking at a lot of woods and prairie walking!! Best regards, F01
Is there an equal to the 404 grain Shock Hammer as an all round bullet for the 458 Win on dangerous game?
I think not
The 404 Hammer with its bc and performance caused me to knock the dust of my 458.
I always thought the 400 grain weight range was ideal for North America. But, the available bullets were lacking bc. The 404 Hammer provided the bc and performance regardless of continent.
; ] thanks Sir Ron, this is just one small project i've been trying to get caught back up on after Safari, i welded in a new 14 gauge metal floor, bought 4 new tires, welded on chain on back ramps, safety chains on front, welded pin loops from a piece of pipe for more ramp security, removed then straightened crossbar at the back the ramps roll on, a new hitch jack was installed, rewired the whole thing complete with new tail lights...................dang, that work done now i get to go load the damn thing LOL!
All good and thanks for posting the pic.
It never really ends for a married man, it just gets dark ; ]
Well, I managed to do the bullet tests today. Most of it went quite well. Cloudy with temp at +1C. About 3 - 4" snow on ground. Will send some pics to Sir Ron later. Black aiming dots (black marker) on end of box looked like the five on dice. Range to box = 10 ft. Box length = 19". Total weight = 50 lbs. Fired in this order:
2nd dot bottom left = 600gr BO/missed box low , knew it would shoot a bit low because sighted for the 250 MF, but also the separation between bore and scope.
3rd dot upper left - 550 Woodleigh/ 1685 fps/ Penetration = 5"/ expansion .82"/ wt retained = 351gr - 64% (There were 2 small pieces next to the bullet. Total = 429 grs.
Those magazines were wedged in place; glossy covers and pages, like bone. I'd multiply the penetration in flesh and bone by 7 to 10. As expected, the 500 Hornady DGX out-penetrated the others by 2 to 3 inches and cracked and bulged magazines al least a couple inches beyond that. But it didn't begin to expand until penetration was 2.5 - 3".
And I was impressed with the "little" 250gr MonoFlex, it was flattened but retained nearly all it weight (even to some of the red plastic point).
The last magazine with a clear penetration of about 1" in diameter was by the Hornady, and the others hadn't even shown a dent in it.
Some pics tomorrow to Sir Ron if he wants to put some up here.
Obviously, the 500-gr DGX-Bonded would be the most devastating on the biggest of game. That 250-gr Monoflex with 94% weight retention at such high speed is mighty impressive, impressive expansion too. Half the weight and half the penetration but wider wound channel. That is going to leave a mark inside of the animal yet not on the shooter's shoulder.
Yep, pics would be interesting. Happy to post pics if you want them in a gallery here at 24hr.
Sent them yesterday but returned to me with message: MAIL couldn't find address! So, unless you've changed your email...? Email me if you need or want to. Thanks. Or did I make a mistake? It was checked twice...
Yes, "A picture is worth a thousand words" is a cliche that started circling the globe about 1920, according to my source. Strange that you got bounced from my email box, always worked for you before. Maybe it was some interference from the Democraps: They are always first on the suspect list as culprits for anything undesirable. Or maybe the files were too large ? Try emailing them one at a time, if that does not work then reduce file size. The gallery here has a 2 MB size limit on images to upload. PM-ing my email address to you now.
What rifle chambering offers the best in practicality in the coming years ? With the Democraps doing a bang-up job running the supply chain, we may have to get back to paper-patched cast bullets and making our own black powder at home. The .458 WinMag cannot be beat for such applications, as well as being tops with smokeless and jacketed bullets, should any ever get to shelves at your local emporium. There are more possibilities for making brass from stray H&H-belted cases than with any other all-arounder. The .458 WinMag is indeed the winner on so many levels. One thing that bothers me is the primer supply chain, let's go Brandon.
A couple of mistakes in ascribing weight % : The Swift AF retained 350 grains = 78%, and the 550 Woodleigh retained only 287 grains = 52%. Depths of penetration and expansion dia. were correct.
Sorry about that error... which got switched somehow in my initial notes. So don't blame Sir Ron!!! He doesn't make mistakes like that! Apologies to him, and many thanks.
No problemo. Erroneous info in last part of the pictures post above has/have been deleted. The corrected info will appear shortly on the recovered bullet pictures, looking more consistent with the pictures.
That is some really good stuff Sir Bob, have shot hard glossy Wife magazines for years, packed tight in a box like you just did, adding some cattle bones is always a treat and a real test for soft point bullets, as well as straight wound track checking for solids, good work Sir.
Thanks for posting the pics for us Sir Ron.
Sir Larry, yes, the 480's from Hornady are geared more for the 458 cal double rifles and do have more shank in the case, those are the exact bullets i fire in my old Holland double, very thankful for them.
Thanks Sir Jerry. I assume that the Lee Factory Crimp could provide for a bit more powder space. If the 20 grain difference in bullet weight would make for any significant velocity gain.
I did have an enjoyable review of MikeMcGuire and AussieGunWriter posts regarding their experiences.
I am sorry Mike doesn't post more here, he is far more knowledgeable than the majority of writers and is an unbelievably accurate shooter I witnessed from the neighboring benches, for several years going back to the late 80's. His experience and understanding of barrels, powders and bedding is staggering by any comparison. He like Ron, has qualified opinion.
Sir Woods, Good to see you here, and Sir Mike too, we can only hope. The .458 WinMag does it all. Even if they don't let Brandon go free (Let's go Brandon) we know how to make paper-patched and BP work in the .458 WinMag, if it ever becomes a necessity. While we can still get smokeless powder, and needing to conserve on premium bullets as inflation turns them into worth their weight in gold, it would be good to imitate the ballistics with hardcast. I have never gotten the 400-ish-grainer hardcasts up to 2500 fps, to see if it is practical regarding accuracy and whatnot for practice and plinking. I plan to do it from 72.0 to 80.0 grains or more of AA-2230, AA-2460, or H4895 up to 110% compression, whatever it takes ...
Previous experiments around 2000 to 2200 fps MV with these were excellent, using AA-2495 benchrest powder.
You should have no problem getting 2500 FPS powder coat is the easy bullion. It will take a proper lube for a greaset. I would start with LBT Blue, of course the hardness may need to be increased
I am very curious to see what your powder-coated lead experiments turn up. I have not loaded any lead yet in the great .458, and will admit that I don't want to deal with leading. If you can get 2300 or better with no leading, I will have to start using my lead bullets more.
I am very curious to see what your powder-coated lead experiments turn up. I have not loaded any lead yet in the great .458, and will admit that I don't want to deal with leading. If you can get 2300 or better with no leading, I will have to start using my lead bullets more.
Done correctly 3000 FPS can be obtained with hardcast bullets
Thanks to all ye Knights of The Square Table for your interest in fast cast loads. About any 400- to 600-grain bullet can be used accurately at 1400 fps to 2200 fps, with no leading noted after 50 rounds, according to Square Table findings on the .458 WinMag. Just has to be a .461" diameter bullet for .459"-groove, and properly hard. Powder-coat paint and gas check ought to seal the deal for 2500 fps. Will start with the long and pointy 411-grainer and H4895, long COL, and work my way down to the 407-grainer at 3.260" COL with the AA powders. The stubby 407-grainer is my favorite.
Temps in the 40's F and raining all week here. Might as well do this:
In a question about collector's value for the
GUNS & AMMO ACTION SERIES 1983 Volume 1, Number 1, BIG BORE RIFLES 0-8227-2335-2: Copyright 1983 by Petersen Publishing Company
The legendary wordsmith and professional hunter Phil Shoemaker had this to say:
Originally Posted by 458Win
I have seen them advertised for $250 but don’t know if they ever got that. It is a very interesting edition as it was Edited and primarily written by Jack Lott and he describes his infamous dustup with a Cape buffalo that tossed him. In it he credits Wally Johnson , using Jack’s 458 Win, for saving his life. He also admits that he gut shot the buffalo and that the 458 Win worked perfectly! In the second edition, that came out a few years later, Jack was promoting his 458 Lott wildcat and wrote a completely different story ! And years later, in an article published by Wolfe Pub, Jack blamed the 458 Win !
Bravo for that literary gem written as succinctly as if from Ernest Hemingway.
Mozambique, September 18, 1959, along the south bank of the Revui River: A day that will live in infamy.
That 1983 version does indeed have the greatest elaboration of the story about Jack Lott's 1959 adventures with the .458 Winchester Magnum. An abbreviated version of the truth appeared in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, January 1972. It was the last two paragraphs of Jack Lott's article "Why Magazine Big-Bore Rifles are Best" under a subheading: "Injury not always avoidable."
A four-paragraph version of the story also appeared in the 1984, 10th Edition, HANDLOADER'S DIGEST. The end of that passage says "... In two weeks I was back on safari -- limping and a bit shaky, but otherwise functional -- with a great interest in rifle power." Yet Jack Lott hunted Africa again with the .458 WinMag and a .375 H&H each time, in 1962 (Malawi), and 1963 (Zimbabwe).
It should be mentioned that lack of "rifle power" was not the problem with the .458 Winchester Magnum. The 500-grain .458 WM solid that Jack fired as his second shot, before being butted and tossed by the buffalo, was driven too powerfully by the .458 WM factory load. MV was so high that the steel-jacketed RN FMJ "solid" deformed into a "knoblike mushroom" that "deflected into the paunch" after it "had struck centrally on the shoulder." Jack's first bullet, 510-gr factory soft ended up there too ... "mangled itself into a shapeless blob in the water-logged stomach grass."
Jack gut-shot the buffalo twice, the second time by no fault of his own, just poor bullet construction, state of the art in commercial ammo of the day. But if you shoot a buffalo twice in the gut, for whatever reason, he is going to be mad.
The bullets painted with blue are loaded with 80.0 grains of AA-2230, 20 rounds of the 411-grainer (AM 46-425PG) The bullets painted with red are loaded over 81.0 grains of AA-2230, 15 rounds of the 411-grainer, and 15 rounds of the 401-grainer (AM 46-410M).
I forgot that I tested the 407-grainer (AM 46-410M) back in August 2021 with 80 grains of AA-2230. 5 shots averaged 2477 fps at 5 yards from the muzzle of a 24" Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag. The 100-yard target was marred by vertical stringing as the forearm hanger screw had become bent and stripped. See pages 48-49 of this thread:
I was so dashed by it all that I suppressed the memory. I fixed the Ruger No. 1, and now check the screw after every 20 rounds. 44 rounds were fired on the day when the screw stripped and bent.
No need to do it all again with a "ladder" of powder charges. I just need a stepstool of one more grain of powder increase. And I will use a 25" Shilen barrel this time, going for +2500 fps MV with accuracy. Soon as I can get a day with no precipitation nor freezing temps at the outdoor range. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
Mercy bo coop, Sir John of the Square Table. I am going to have to get more organized. Can't even remember what I have done in years past. I hereby resolve, for 2023, to finish building that .500 Jeffery I started collecting parts for in 2003. Twenty years is long enough in the wine cellar. Also, to write a reloading manual for the .458 WinMag for my own benefit if nothing else. 50 cast bullet shots coming up, 3 different loads. No fouling issues expected using .461" hardcast/PCP/GC in .459" groove, 1:14" twist. Shoots clean as a whistle. Like paper-patched and duplexed BP with a grease cookie. Shoot all day without wiping. I will check action screws after 15 to 20 shots with each load.
From August 6, 2021: 5 shots chronographed (with 5-yard optical) fired at 100-yard target when forearm screw was bent, stripped, loose, accuracy problem was not just a problem with the nut behind the trigger.
mean = 2477.2 fps Standard deviation = 13.0 fps Extreme Spread = 30 fps
We shall do better on the accuracy with tight screws, and same nut behind the trigger. Standard deviations of 15-shot and 20-shot samples will be interesting. Better for zeroing the rifle also.
RIP Put me down as a buyer for that loading manual! I’m sure it will be a square deal. F01
Ditto! Wish Sir Bob still had his manual in print, and I would get that one as well. Perhaps a combined printing? Shall we pass around the hat/offering plate to help get it done?
OK, for The Square Table Knights then, this will have to be done in two volumes. First a compilation of load data, just to get it started. Easy to get started on. Second volume will be history, full of facts and Lottite fiction for the aficionados.
LkHntr, are you a Knight of The Square Table ? State your chosen Sir name if so. Long live the .458 Winchester Magnum.
OK, for The Square Table Knights then, this will have to be done in two volumes. First a compilation of load data, just to get it started. Easy to get started on. Second volume will be history, full of facts and Lottite fiction for the aficionados.
LkHntr, are you a Knight of The Square Table ? State your chosen Sir name if so. Long live the .458 Winchester Magnum.
This will be epic, the greatest work ever on the 458 Win mag
If the 400-gr TSX Buffalo Bore at 2350 fps MV, impacting at 2105 fps, can do this to a deer, I think 407-grain hardcast at 2500 fps MV should be interesting in the .458 WinMag.
That would be the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN at +2600 fps with compressed H4895 of course.
Can’t wait Sir. Mine is headed out on Jan 1 for nice doe. Went out yesterday and shot some pumpkins sitting in the pasture to assure my super cold weather function & zero. Sitting over sticks got my tail cold and damp but got 4 pumpkins killed. Good to go. Best regards, F01
Good stuff Sir Ron, glad to see you gents are running along full steam ahead with all things 458 Win Mag, a buddy tried to buy my 458 WM+ i took on last safari after i showed him the pics of all the one shot stopped animals...........i didn't slap him LOL!
OK, for The Square Table Knights then, this will have to be done in two volumes. First a compilation of load data, just to get it started. Easy to get started on. Second volume will be history, full of facts and Lottite fiction for the aficionados.
LkHntr, are you a Knight of The Square Table ? State your chosen Sir name if so. Long live the .458 Winchester Magnum.
I am not so sure I would consider myself a Knight, but after reading and learning about the great 458 Winchester Magnum I have become a member of the 458 WM club. I have a 458 WM barrel for my Blaser R8 that I plan on shooting this weekend for the 1st time. I also have 308, 30-06, 300 WM, and 9.3x62 barrels, along with a few other rifle platforms. I am going to start reloading and just placed an order for a Co-Ax press. As for being a Blaser fan, I know! I know! hopefully God will forgive me?
Only Heaven has just one door. The Square Table of the 458WM can be entered through many ways. The willingness to accept the truth of its magnificence is all that is required. F01
I am one of those poor souls that have crossed over to the dark side. I am a Blaser fan, I admit I have a problem, and I could not be happier, enough so that I have sold many rifles, pistols, and revolvers to support the barrel addiction. Here are some specs on this particular setup. Obviously it starts with the 458 WM barrel. I had the stock cut 1 inch, the insert reinstalled, and a 1" Limbsaver grind to fit recoil pad installed by the folks at Limbsaver for a total LOP of 14". I replaced the Blaser low scope rings with Leupold low scope rings that let the scope sit a good bit lower. The Leupold rings had to be drilled and tapped to make them work. I attached a Schmidt & Bender Zenith flash dot 1.1-4x24 with a Reticle No. 9. The rifle, scope, and fully loaded weighs 10lbs 4.6oz. The OAL is 41". The total barrel length is 23 3/4", the effective barrel length from the bolt face to the end of the barrel is 23". Center of Gravity for the complete setup is 5 1/4" forward of the trigger. I shot this setup today for the first time. I used DoubleTap 350GR Barnes TSX Ammunition, and the kick was not much harder than my similar setup with an Elmer's 300WM barrel installed, which is the same length but thinner and weighs less. Since the same bolt face and magazine insert are used for both these barrels, loosening the two captured nuts, replace 1 barrel with the other, tighten the captured nuts, and you are good to go in less than a minute. By the way the magazine insert is the same for the 458 Lott so there is plenty of room to load long. I eyeballed the scope with the Iron Sights, then fired 2 shots at the stump shown in the pics which was ten yards away, and then fired a third shot with the open/iron sights. I have to admit I was a bit nervous touching off the 1st round, to say I was happy with results and recoil is an understatement. Moving up to 400GR will be the next step and should be as heavy as I will need to go for my purposes. If this qualifies me to become a member of the Knights of The Square Table, I will choose a shortened version of Blaser to "Sir Blase".
I just want to clarify I was not shooting for accuracy in any way, form, or fashion. Since I am unfamiliar with the 458 WM, the sole purpose of this exercise was to get a feel for the recoil of the 458 WM using a low weight bullet at a moderate velocity. I will properly sight in the scope and test for accuracy hopefully sooner than later.
The dinosaur hunter would do well with a .458 WinMag and proper-bulleted load.
Michael McCourry is pictured below with his 18"-barreled .458 B&M proprietary chambering (short throated) that, with 3.000" COL and 2.240" brass length (based on RUM brass), can almost equal an 18"-barreled SAAMI .458 WinMag with 3.340" COL and 2.500" brass length.
Michael is trying to induce a charge from the T.rex, holding fire until he gets a scrotum shot. Behind him is PH Andrew Schoeman of Baobab Hunting Safaris saying “Wait wait wait …”
If we put a .458 WinMag throat on the .458 B&M and load it out to 3.260" COL (.458 B&M+) and load the .458 WinMag out to 3.600" COL (.458 WM+), then they both have the same case capacity as the .458 Lott, and both will beat the .458 Lott for higher velocity or lower pressure or both, due to the throat, if all three chamberings are used in barrels of identical length and rifling characteristics.
OK then, Sir Blase as in blazing fire. Glad you did not claim "Sir Blaseralott," but even if you had, and still had a .458 WinMag barrel on your R8, you would be good. "Sir Shootalot" or "Sir Launchalot" or "Sir Boomalot" anyone ?
A more usual bag with the .458 B&M 18" barrel shooting 450-gr brass FN solids by CEB, Sir Michael again:
I report that the magnificent 458 WM is a great spot and stalk coyote gun. A 485 grain flat nose delivered to the back of neck shoulder junction exits the throat and coyote dies just fine. The hunt for a tasty doe continues. F01
Jolly good show, Sir Dennis ! The .458 Win Mag wins again ! Coyote, venison, or elephant, no worries.
Here is an interesting copper monometal solid to push some envelopes: Meplat too small for best performance, but would be a slick feeder in rifles that balk at the perfect FN. It has the overall shape and length of an Accurate Molds 485-grainer in WW alloy, IIRC:
The elephant killer load from Sir Michael's .458 B&M/18"-barrel
"Same load for many years, proven over and over again……… 76/TAC……….. 450 #13 and in this case I think around 2210 fps or so…… "
(That would be using the R-P .300 RUM brass cut and necked to 2.240" length.)
"Broadside heart shot, burned through the elephant like he was hot butter, exited far side and still may be roaming around Zimbabwe as we speak… ... centered heart, continued on for maybe 30-35 yards and down……….."
If that is a pass-through on elephant broadside, heart shot, then it will be more than sufficient for any brain shooting.
Richard Harland reported many good results on elephant with brass FN solids of 450-gr weight at 2300 fps MV from the usual barrel length in SAAMI .458 WinMag.
Another bullet for any .458-caliber rifle from .458 SOCOM on up:
(Above photos by Michael McCourry of MIB.)
From a 9mm Glock 19, the 90-gr Xtreme Defense gave a "triple-wide" wound channel and 18" penetration in ballistic gelatin compared to a 115-grain Xtreme Penetrator that gave a "single wide" wound channel and over 30" of penetration. Both are impervious to hollow-point-plugging-pinching due to not having hollow points, hydrodynamic fluting at tip instead.
The CEB brass Raptor is impervious to plugging-pinching too, due to Talon Tip initiation and certain petal shear at all velocities slightly greater than if thrown by hand. The proposed 4-band brass CEB Raptor of 250-ish-grain weight with Talon Tip installed (adds about 8 grains weight) will be particularly good in the .458 WM and .458 WM+. Get your orders in here if it ever gets done. Recoil reduction with effectiveness retention. Muzzle brakes need not apply.
Hey Riflecrank, is there a possibility you could include the James Watt biography in the .458 Winchester reloading manual that you are going to have printed? It would be a wonderful source of history to go with the .458 data...just a thought. Thanks.
......whether you include the James Watt material or not, when do you think your .458 manual would be printed?
Hey Riflecrank, is there a possibility you could include the James Watt biography in the .458 Winchester reloading manual that you are going to have printed? It would be a wonderful source of history to go with the .458 data...just a thought. Thanks.
......whether you include the James Watt material or not, when do you think your .458 manual would be printed?
Oh, alright. Based on Cal Pappas' biography, the pertinent chapter could be distilled. Would not be right without it. Same for a chapter about Sir Jerry's pioneering use of the 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer in Africa, first ever, and he is still alive to edit. No publication date to tell about yet, only have about 20 pages in the can so far, going over 36 years of notes on .458 Winchester Magnum shooting and handloading is a labor of love, too often interrupted by chores and Old Ladies. I will announce it here when the time grows nigh.
Dave93, Do you wish to have a seat at the Square Table ? I don't believe anyone has claimed "Sir Dave" as yet, if you are indeed a champion of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Looking forward to your 4 5 8 reloading manual. Not sure if I’m worthy sir material as the biggest rifles I’ve owned are mediums. I definitely follow your writing with a great deal of interest. Thanks for providing such great reading....you sir are on fire...🔥
Pity poor swiftshot, formerly known as shootaway. Here is his doppleganger, so similar in appearance:
Compare to the real "man":
Charles Darwin approves that he has not reproduced.
I may have to self-publish, but the truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum must be told. I am working on it but have a lot of "home improvements" to be completed and other whatnots like bad weather hindering the hobbies. I'll gitterdun.
Pity poor swiftshot, formerly known as shootaway. Here is his doppleganger, so similar in appearance:
Compare to the real "man":
Charles Darwin approves that he has not reproduced.
I may have to self-publish, but the truth about the .458 Winchester Magnum must be told. I am working on it but have a lot of "home improvements" to be completed and other whatnots like bad weather hindering the hobbies. I'll gitterdun.
I'm lurking... with so much "stuff" going on for the past month or so, involving self, wife and extended family, I've hardly had time to think about blog writing, let alone getting something published on weekends. Life gets too busy sometimes even when in your late eighties! Nuff said!
And with the government wanting to steal our rifles... my Ruger #1 in .458 on their list, living starts to taste bitter.
Anyway, if anyone can showcase the great .458 Winchester Magnum as it deserves, it's Sir Ron. It's timely and needed. Thanks Ron for your friendship, and sharing with us your great gifts of knowledge and skill with words and photos. I'm humbled to know something about you and in graciously sharing your company with us here.
If I'm still around, I'll greatly prize your books/manuals on the great .458 Winchester Magnum.
Bob www.bigbores.ca (My blog on Saturday will make some comments about REAL BALLISTICS vs Hearsay, and the .458 Win Mag is used as one example.)
Good to know you’re up and running sir. Shabbat Shalom
Thanks very much Sir Dennis. I' m looking forward to the next decade, and then at 97, if the LORD doesn't return before that, I'll not get out alive! Hahaha!
Good to know you’re up and running sir. Shabbat Shalom
Thanks very much Sir Dennis. I' m looking forward to the next decade, and then at 97, if the LORD doesn't return before that, I'll not get out alive! Hahaha!
Found an 8-pound jug of CFE 223. Nice powder for heavy bullets in the .458 WinMag, .400 Whelen, .35 Whelen, .416 RM and etc. Even if it may be a bit temperature sensitive, it would be hard to get in trouble with this powder, for high velocity at low pressure and no compression required in the SAAMI .458 WM or .458 WM+.
Anything made for the .223 Rem works very well in .45-70 and .458. And this time in .35 Whelen, CFE 223 is a stella performer. And, therefore, in 9.3 x 62 in which I'm planning to give it a try come spring along with some tests in .458 Win Mag.
I've not seen any 8 lb jugs yet, but I did manage to secure two more 1 lb plastic bottles. Looking forward to your trials, Sir Ron.
From the grapevine came all the excellent loads for other cartridges by Sir Bob, Sir Jerry and Sir John. So, I did not hesitate to grab this next time I saw one:
They seem to show up one at a time locally, about every six months. Here is how it ranks on the relative burn rate scale of powders I find useful (whenever available) in the .458 WM:
Yep, slowest, therefore probably best for the heavier bullets in the efficient cartridges such as the .458 WM .308 WCF .223 RM I pieced that list together from these two charts:
Interesting that the only two propellants tied for the same burn rate (125) in chart above were Alliant Varmint (compact ball powder) and AA-2495 (bulky stick powder). IMR-4166 (stick powder) ranked one notch slower than AA-2495 on the chart below, so I assigned it a score of 126 to fit into the chart above, where it was omitted.
Once upon a time, Hornady had a factory load for the SAAMI .458 WM that propelled a 500-gr RN InterBond at a claimed 2260 fps MV from a 24" barrel. That would be at 3.340" or shorter COL and 60,000 psi or less pressure, if it satisfied SAAMI. I am thinking this can be replicated with either CFE 223 or Alliant "Power Pro" Varmint, based on two loads I tested at 3.480" COL, so as to allow for "work-down" in COL rather than "work-up" in powder charge:
The Federal data shows 2213 fps with the 1.400"-long, 500-gr TBSS and COL of 3.275" from a 24" barrel:
What the hey! Might as well use the TBSS 500-grainer at 3.340" COL or wherever the crimp lands near that. Will do, first thing after firing those cast bullet loads sitting in the queue. Winter is almost out of here. Chore list is getting shorter.
About that temperature sensitivity thing: CFE 223 is about like the excellent Varget in the range from 32*F to 68*F, but above that range it takes off like a rocket. This is according to what is found here:
That is a neat set of articles, containing some neat graphs and tables, a sample:
Shows how good H4895 is too, over the entire range of temps tested. H4895 can be used to do 60% LR loose loads or 110% LR compressed loads after use of a drop tube. But the ball powders sure do meter well and don't require any effort to seat the bullet over them.
IMR-8208 XBR is remarkably stable and has "super short grains" of extruded that meter very well, and at #117 is very close to AA-2230 (#115) and AA-2460(#116) on the relative burn rate scale.
How about the Alliant AR-Comp and IMR-4166 stick powders ??? with velocities decreasing as temperature goes up in some of those graphs, etc., ??? Lots to ponder there.
Chapter 2 Father of the .458 Winchester Magnum: James A. Watts
The first book written by Calvin R. Pappas (1996) was entitled: JAMES “.450” WATTS: RECOLLECTIONS OF MY LIFE This was essentially a transcription of a half-year of Sunday evening, tape-recorded conversations from early winter 1994 to late spring 1995. James “.450” Watts passed away at age 82 on December 19, 1995, in his Anchorage, Alaska home. Sadly, for all hunters and firearms enthusiasts, Cal “.600” Pappas was called to the Happy Hunting Ground too soon, at age 66, on May 22, 2022 at his home in Willow, Alaska. These two men had much in common. Their collaboration on the book was a God Wink. I like to think they are continuing their conversations at the hunting camp they now share up there.
Here is the story of how James Watts conceived the .450 Watts Magnum (2.85” H&H-belted case) and .450 Watts Short (2.50” H&H-belted case) and pestered WRAC until they homologated the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. Cal also reported on James Watts’ inventions of the “.450 Alaskan,” “.416 Taylor” and “.40-348 Watts Improved.” I believe Watts was the first wildcatter to fire-form a .375 H&H to .458-caliber, full-length, straight-tapered dangerous game stopper in 1949. He may have had his first glimmerings of doing so in the summer of 1939. Watts was then arising from a dunking in a creek after a charging grizzly he had fully perforated with a .375 H&H struck him with paw. That swipe tore the .45 Long Colt revolver off his hip as the bear ran over him and died on the other side of the creek. That was the inspiration. Baptism by bear.
James A. Watts was born in 1913 in Mulvane, Kansas. His father (George) was a Methodist minister and his mother (Rebecca) was a school teacher. James was an All-American boy, well-adjusted, adventurous, energetic, intelligent, loved outdoor pursuits, hunting, camping, and firearms. He started shooting at 8 y.o. with a Stevens single shot .22 RF. Before graduating high school he had graduated to a .45-70 Springfield Trapdoor and a Savage M95 .30-30 WCF. After college he taught history and English in western Kansas and owned a 12-gauge Western Field pump and a Winchester Model 71 .348 WCF. He ordered a Winchester Model 70 .375 H&H in 1937 and by the spring of 1938 he was planning an Alaskan adventure. James said his .375 H&H was the seventeenth M70 made in that caliber.
Young James’ first contact in Alaska was none other than Judge E. B. Collins, mayor of Fairbanks, who had facilitated the introduction of bison from Yellowstone park to the Delta Junction area in 1928. The Judge’s daughter, Mrs. Mary Lou Howard, had relocated to El Dorado, Kansas and spoke in church of her Alaskan experiences. She provided the contact information also for a Methodist minister in Alaska through whom James also explored employment prospects. After mailing and receiving replies to several letters, James headed for Alaska with his .375 H&H Winchester M70, having sold his .348 and .30-30 WCF.
He traveled by bus from Kansas to Seattle, Washington. Then a freighter carrying railroad materials took him by steerage passage to Seward, Alaska. There he met the Methodist minister during a ten hour layover, drove around the Kenai Peninsula a bit with the pastor, then hopped back on the ship headed for Valdez ...
Someone had posted on a different forum, that the Hammer Bullets are now cleansed of the machine oil. Referenced Weatherby's request. I received some .358, 203 grain Shock Hammers the other day. Not a hint of oil on these. Personally, that is my preference. Saves me the cleansing ritual.
Interesting stuff in this thread. However, I have never had an interest in the .458 win mag. I recently saw one that I almost bought. Built on a mauser 98 action, in a cheap (but nice) synthetic stock. Shop wanted $349.99 for it. That shop actually just got in a bunch of Whitworth's, some of them chambered in 458WM. Beautiful rifles, priced around $1,000-1,500.00. Then I know of a certain pawn shop that has ammo and reloading supplies for it. Hmm. Should work well on jackrabbits??
Interesting stuff in this thread. However, I have never had an interest in the .458 win mag. I recently saw one that I almost bought. Built on a mauser 98 action, in a cheap (but nice) synthetic stock. Shop wanted $349.99 for it. That shop actually just got in a bunch of Whitworth's, some of them chambered in 458WM. Beautiful rifles, priced around $1,000-1,500.00. Then I know of a certain pawn shop that has ammo and reloading supplies for it. Hmm. Should work well on jackrabbits??
You wouldn't like one at all BSA...
I mean what could be fun about hunking 250-600 grain bullets with unreal accuracy from a good rifle, that LD mentions is good nuff from mice to T-Rex's
Interesting stuff in this thread. However, I have never had an interest in the .458 win mag. I recently saw one that I almost bought. Built on a mauser 98 action, in a cheap (but nice) synthetic stock. Shop wanted $349.99 for it. That shop actually just got in a bunch of Whitworth's, some of them chambered in 458WM. Beautiful rifles, priced around $1,000-1,500.00. Then I know of a certain pawn shop that has ammo and reloading supplies for it. Hmm. Should work well on jackrabbits??
You wouldn't like one at all BSA...
I mean what could be fun about hunking 250-600 grain bullets with unreal accuracy from a good rifle, that LD mentions is good nuff from mice to T-Rex's
Interesting stuff in this thread. However, I have never had an interest in the .458 win mag. I recently saw one that I almost bought. Built on a mauser 98 action, in a cheap (but nice) synthetic stock. Shop wanted $349.99 for it. That shop actually just got in a bunch of Whitworth's, some of them chambered in 458WM. Beautiful rifles, priced around $1,000-1,500.00. Then I know of a certain pawn shop that has ammo and reloading supplies for it. Hmm. Should work well on jackrabbits??
You wouldn't like one at all BSA...
I mean what could be fun about hunking 250-600 grain bullets with unreal accuracy from a good rifle, that LD mentions is good nuff from mice to T-Rex's
Hmmm. Will one reach out to 400 yards??
Of course it will reach.
Don’t look at all these guys like Gunner and similar hammering stuff with 700+ grain Blackpowder loads running 1300-1400 FPS..
If you rewind this thread some, you’d see some terrific shooting by some of these posters.
Interesting stuff in this thread. However, I have never had an interest in the .458 win mag. I recently saw one that I almost bought. Built on a mauser 98 action, in a cheap (but nice) synthetic stock. Shop wanted $349.99 for it. That shop actually just got in a bunch of Whitworth's, some of them chambered in 458WM. Beautiful rifles, priced around $1,000-1,500.00. Then I know of a certain pawn shop that has ammo and reloading supplies for it. Hmm. Should work well on jackrabbits??
You wouldn't like one at all BSA...
I mean what could be fun about hunking 250-600 grain bullets with unreal accuracy from a good rifle, that LD mentions is good nuff from mice to T-Rex's
Hmmm. Will one reach out to 400 yards??
Of course it will reach.
Don’t look at all these guys like Gunner and similar hammering stuff with 700+ grain Blackpowder loads running 1300-1400 FPS..
If you rewind this thread some, you’d see some terrific shooting by some of these posters.
Ah, ha. Thanks for reminding me. I have not looked at this whole thread, but remember Gunner texting me some pics of some groups he shot with some of his heavy bullets and iron sights at long range. That guy hammers schidt way out there... Geez, you guys are enablers!!! Should I buy a nice Whitworth or a cheap plastic stocked rifle? And a better dental plan, for when my fillings fall out... ha ha..
Whitworths are designed not to kick that hard. My whitworth is a pussy cat. Kicks less than most of my 338s. I have Parker Hale Safari that will kick you pretty hard. I have heard that the Browning Safari 458s kicked very much like that mean cross-eyed girl with cowboy boots from the third grade- the one that wanted to be Nellie Olson.
Interesting stuff in this thread. However, I have never had an interest in the .458 win mag. I recently saw one that I almost bought. Built on a mauser 98 action, in a cheap (but nice) synthetic stock. Shop wanted $349.99 for it. That shop actually just got in a bunch of Whitworth's, some of them chambered in 458WM. Beautiful rifles, priced around $1,000-1,500.00. Then I know of a certain pawn shop that has ammo and reloading supplies for it. Hmm. Should work well on jackrabbits??
You wouldn't like one at all BSA...
I mean what could be fun about hunking 250-600 grain bullets with unreal accuracy from a good rifle, that LD mentions is good nuff from mice to T-Rex's
Hmmm. Will one reach out to 400 yards??
Of course it will reach.
Don’t look at all these guys like Gunner and similar hammering stuff with 700+ grain Blackpowder loads running 1300-1400 FPS..
If you rewind this thread some, you’d see some terrific shooting by some of these posters.
Ah, ha. Thanks for reminding me. I have not looked at this whole thread, but remember Gunner texting me some pics of some groups he shot with some of his heavy bullets and iron sights at long range. That guy hammers schidt way out there... Geez, you guys are enablers!!! Should I buy a nice Whitworth or a cheap plastic stocked rifle? And a better dental plan, for when my fillings fall out... ha ha..
He sure does. Just like everything else, takes the rifle set up, but with the set up some of these fellas are running with the 404 Hammers at 2400-2500 trajectory isn't so much different than a 35 Whelen with a 250 grain bullet or similar. While not a flatliner, it'll still get some distance!
bsa1917hunter, The correct thing to do is get both the shopmule Mauser and the Sunday-go-to-meeting Whitworth .458 WinMags. A man can never have too many .458 WinMags. I agree wholeheartedly with all the good advice you received from the other Square Table Knights above. Soon you may have a seat too.
About some fun shooting with the .458 WinMag, one can duplicate or exceed anything from Trapdoor to .458 Lott, subsonic 600-grainers to +2500 fps 404-grainer with high BC, etc.
Here are some videos showing the .458 SOCOM ringing steel at 350 yards and penetrating more than 12 one-gallon jugs of water, all with a 600-grain FN cast bullet at 1050 fps:
The 404 gr Shock Hammer at a no-sweat / easy 2300 fps, scope sighted 2" high at 100 yds, seems like a very easy 200 yard trajectory, wind drift, and remaining velocity for about anything with hooves.
For me this bullet upped the 458 uses. Thanks again to Sir Ron for his tenacity to get this bullet into production.
The 404 gr Shock Hammer at a no-sweat / easy 2300 fps, scope sighted 2" high at 100 yds, seems like a very easy 200 yard trajectory, wind drift, and remaining velocity for about anything with hooves.
For me this bullet upped the 458 uses ...
Amen, Sir Larry. That is essentially what I did for my most recent deer cull.
I consider the .458 B&M+ with COL of 3.08" to be identical to the .458 WinMag at COL of 3.34" with whatever bullet is being used, regarding load data and results.
My load with the 404-grainer starting off at about 2350 fps passed right through that deer at 200-yards, dead on and dead right there. The 80.0-grain AA-2230 charge will give about 2350 fps in an 18" barrel and about 2500 fps in a 24" barrel of a .458 WinMag shooting that 404-gr Shock Hammer. Make it 3.38" COL to work in any factory .458 WinMag magazine box, or 3.48" COL if you and your rifle like that COL better. If you go as short as 3.28" COL then less powder will be needed to equal those velocities in the .458 WinMag.
Usual safety disclaimer: Whatever COL you like, work up from 10% below my favorite charge of 80.0 grains AA-2230, for goal of 2300 fps to 2500 fps MV with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
The 404 with a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps, at 200 yards should Hammer anything in North America. It is still plenty above the velocity threshold for petal shear and lots of penetration.
Gunner's African critter slaying / field trials certainly provided some great examples of this 404 grain bullet's worthiness.
This 404 Shock Hammer is definitely a do-all bullet in the 458 for non-solid duties. It was instant like at opening a box of that first order.
The 404 Hammer, the 380 grain Lehigh Copper Flat Point, the 350 grain North Fork Expanding Cup Solid, and the CEB 325 #13 Safari Solid are my present favorites. I do want to give the CEB 400 grain #13 Safari Solid a shot at the range. I am interested to see the potential POI match up with the 404 Hammer.
Cabin fever overcame me Sunday at 1 PM as the sun was out and it was in the mid fifties F. So even though the trees were waving all about in the wind, I went to the public range. At the concrete shooting bench, a 50-round box of ammo more than half full was tipped over by a gust when I opened the lid. Oh well. I hung a sandbag under the tripod of the Caldwell G2 chronograph and fired 5 shots with each of 3 loads. Good enough for now. Saving the rest to compare POI with the Shock Hammers on a calm day. Both of these hardcasts shoot about same. The shorter one will be good in a .458 SOCOM, it was designed for that use.
The 25" Shilen contour No. 5.5 barrel as equipped for the shoot:
Dress her like this to take about a pound off:
Sadly, the Nikon scopes were discontinued, happily the 6.5-ounce Leupold 2.5X was still available last time I checked.
I told the Range Master to remind me not to visit when the wind was blowing like this. He told me I might as well quit shooting then, as it is always windy there. He was exaggerating just a little.
Cabin fever overcame me Sunday at 1 PM as the sun was out and it was in the mid fifties F. So even though the trees were waving all about in the wind, I went to the public range. At the concrete shooting bench, a 50-round box of ammo more than half full was tipped over by a gust when I opened the lid. Oh well. I hung a sandbag under the tripod of the Caldwell G2 chronograph and fired 5 shots with each of 3 loads. Good enough for now. Saving the rest to compare POI with the Shock Hammers on a calm day. Both of these hardcasts shoot about same. The shorter one will be good in a .458 SOCOM, it was designed for that use.
The 25" Shilen contour No. 5.5 barrel as equipped for the shoot:
Dress her like this to take about a pound off:
Sadly, the Nikon scopes were discontinued, happily the 6.5-ounce Leupold 2.5X was still available last time I checked.
I told the Range Master to remind me not to visit when the wind was blowing like this. He told me I might as well quit shooting then, as it is always windy there. He was exaggerating just a little.
Cool info. Were you shooting at 50 yards, just because of the wind?
1. It is the only spot at local public range where terrain allows my chrono to be set up high enough on tripod to allow readings at 5 yards and be able to shoot into a target. Only other option there is to go down to 600-yard bench where the ground is flat, without a significant drop-off in front of the bench. I have two functional optical chronos (Caldwell G2 and Oehler 35P) and will not pay for a Lab Radar until I shoot those opticals into nonfunctionality. I have killed two chronos in the past with shotgun wads. Waiting to kill two more. With Lab Radar I could shoot from any bench.
2. At 50 yards the big bore rifle goal is to get three bullets into the same hole. 50 yards is the critical spot-on range for a big bore DGR for offense or defense. Screw the 5-shot groups for group size with the big bores whether at 50 yards or 100 yards. 5 shots takes too prolonged a concentration on shooting technique to be as much fun as 3 shots. 5 shots per load is done only in looking for the magical standard deviation of less than 5 fps for those 5 shots. Depending on the rifle's accuracy node, that could have decent accuracy potential and functional load potential.
3. Yes wind drift at 50 yards might only be 2" on a bad day, but it would be closer to 4" at 100 yards. Horizontal stringing including lulls and gusts could be whatever the stated drift is plus any shooter error plus any rifle&ammo error. More frustrating at longer ranges: Was it me or was it the wind ?
My latest chronographing was good enough to prove a load of 81 grains AA-2230 with my hardcast, PC-painted, gas-checked bullets. Accuracy potential is there. When I go back to shoot a final zero in comparison to Shock Hammers, I now know the loads with those bullets and the Shock Hammer are interchangeable. And I will do it on a calm day !
I do have 1:18" and 1:20" twist rifles chambered for .45-2.6" StarLine brass fired in chambers with .458 WinMag throating. They are only 2 grains of water bigger than the .458 WinMag Dave Manson reamer will so alter any .45-70 Govt. chamber. Identical to .45-70 Elko Magnum of CIP homologation. Slower twist might be better for cast, but the 1:14" .458 WinMag twist is doing well enough, even at +2500 fps with 400-ish-grainer. Probably could kill a deer with that .458 WinMag and the Hi-Vel Hardcast, might work for woodchucks too. For sure a good practice load to save on Shock Hammers.
1. It is the only spot at local public range where terrain allows my chrono to be set up high enough on tripod to allow readings at 5 yards and be able to shoot into a target. Only other option there is to go down to 600-yard bench where the ground is flat, without a significant drop-off in front of the bench. I have two functional optical chronos (Caldwell G2 and Oehler 35P) and will not pay for a Lab Radar until I shoot those opticals into nonfunctionality. I have killed two chronos in the past with shotgun wads. Waiting to kill two more. With Lab Radar I could shoot from any bench.
2. At 50 yards the big bore rifle goal is to get three bullets into the same hole. 50 yards is the critical spot-on range for a big bore DGR for offense or defense. Screw the 5-shot groups for group size with the big bores whether at 50 yards or 100 yards. 5 shots takes too prolonged a concentration on shooting technique to be as much fun as 3 shots. 5 shots per load is done only in looking for the magical standard deviation of less than 5 fps for those 5 shots. Depending on the rifle's accuracy node, that could have decent accuracy potential and functional load potential.
3. Yes wind drift at 50 yards might only be 2" on a bad day, but it would be closer to 4" at 100 yards. Horizontal stringing including lulls and gusts could be whatever the stated drift is plus any shooter error plus any rifle&ammo error. More frustrating at longer ranges: Was it me or was it the wind ?
My latest chronographing was good enough to prove a load of 81 grains AA-2230 with my hardcast, PC-painted, gas-checked bullets. Accuracy potential is there. When I go back to shoot a final zero in comparison to Shock Hammers, I now know the loads with those bullets and the Shock Hammer are interchangeable. And I will do it on a calm day !
I do have 1:18" and 1:20" twist rifles chambered for .45-2.6" StarLine brass fired in chambers with .458 WinMag throating. They are only 2 grains of water bigger than the .458 WinMag Dave Manson reamer will so alter any .45-70 Govt. chamber. Identical to .45-70 Elko Magnum of CIP homologation. Slower twist might be better for cast, but the 1:14" .458 WinMag twist is doing well enough, even at +2500 fps with 400-ish-grainer. Probably could kill a deer with that .458 WinMag and the Hi-Vel Hardcast, might work for woodchucks too. For sure a good practice load to save on Shock Hammers.
Thanks for answering my question regarding range shot. That makes sense, especially if using and setting up an old chrono. However, yours is a lot newer and easier to set up than the one I use. I don't shoot the big 458, that may change, but I'd probably just shoot 3 shots per group and call it good, but 50 yards and 5 shots makes sense. Especially in the wind. I don't use a chrono much because mine is old and a PITA to set up, like it sounds like yours is. Mine may be older though, and it only gives me velocity readings. I have to shoot through a stupid window in cardboard inserts that go into the chrono. Maybe using a chrono is more important with those cast bullets, but I rarely need to use one with jacketed bullets in my hunting rifles. Groups tell me what I need to know. If I need to know velocity for dope and data, so be it. I'll pull the PITA chrono out and get some numbers. Velocity numbers, I could care the fu ck less about sd/es, as the group will tell me if those numbers are good. Just how it is.. Been tested and verified.
BSA, Mighty good 'ol boy of you, thanks. That is a practical method. The smallest st.dev. load won't always be the most accurate load in a rifle, but sometimes it is, when it happens to be at the sweet spot for the rifle harmonics. Still it is one measure of internal ballistic uniformity and reproducibility, whatever the pressure and velocity of the load. Handy shorthand communication.
Yesterday winds were gusting to 50 mph, almost made me homesick for Alaska.
Public Service Announcement:
A SAAMI .458 Lott can be transformed into a more powerful rifle by re-barreling it to SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
Chambering designation on barrel of above rifle:
From Czech Republic by way of Kansas City, MO, USA, a few years before they quit making them, CZ must not have wanted to change the tooling used to make .458 Lott rifles. Original CIP homologation date for the .458 Lott appears to have been on or before August 24, 2000. The CIP revision of May 15, 2002 continued to show the Deep Throat version. The CIP revision of May 16, 2006 finally shows a short throat that matches the SAAMI version of the .458 Lott. CIP and SAAMI homologations of the .458 Winchester Magnum have always been identical, except that CIP allows a higher Maximum Average Pressure. Same MAP for both .458 Winchester Magnum and the .458 Lott according to CIP.
Here is my other .458 Lott that got re-barreled to a more powerful chambering:
That Leupold 6x36mm Compact scope has been known to withstand prolong use on the .577 Tyrannosaur. The rig pictured above with that scope will be most trouble free for .458 Win. Magnum varminting. Just check all screws for tightness after each 20 shots ... or less ... depending on OCD severity.
Another load tried in the same Ruger Mk II .458 WinMag, about 5 years ago, will be used to illustrate initial 50-yard shooting and chronographing for 5-shot st. dev., and 3-shot group at 100 yards, despite a not so terrible crosswind varying between 10 and 20 mph:
An initial fouling shot (#0) chronographed at 5 yards = 2531 fps and went low on target. The next 5 shots settled down to lower velocity with tiny variance, 5-yard readings: #1 = 2515 fps #2 = 2516 #3 = 2514 #4 = 2516 #5 = 2516 Rounded to nearest fps, instrumental mean = 2515 fps, Standard Deviation = 1 fps for 5 shots. +12 fps for BC = 0.372, 5-yard correction, gives MV = 2527 fps, in 25" Shilen barrel. Estimated 24" Shilen barrel velocity = 2512 fps.
Call it a nominal 2500 fps MV load for the generic 24"-barreled .458 WinMag, and about 2350 fps MV for 18"-barreled .458 WinMag.
First 3-shot group at 100 yards had variable winds:
Second 3-shot group at 100 yards had less variable wind, closer to steady wind:
A total of 18 HV bullets were used for this exercise. Those Hardcast-Hi-Vel bullets will save some money in substituting for the HV and Hammer bullets with same powder charges in practice loads for varmint shooting. Whatever a .223 Wylde can do, so can a .458 WinMag. Same powders work well in both with slightly different charge weights.
where can we find these HV Bullets thanks Sir James
Sir James, The .458/404-gr Shock Hammer is what you want. It has a better BC, and Sir Jerry proved its terminals as a DRT cape buffalo bullet.
It actually took longer for me to get some of the GSC cataloged 400-gr HV bullets than it did for me to start from scratch with Hammer Bullets, begging them to produce a new .458/400-ish grainer patterned after their .375/270-gr, a simple scaling up of that, with a 3 mm hollow point.
I am a new guy here and after reading the first 21 pages, I find the information very rewarding. But the question I have is, are there any loads for the 458 using the Berry's 350 gr plated bullet? The loads would need to be under the 1.950 fps maximum velocity. The rifle I have is a Winchester mdl 70 CRF, and the brass I will be using is reformed & trimmed 300 WM. It looks there is a worldwide shortage of the 458 brass.
Do you have any of these powders sir? IMR or H4198, Accurate 2015, either of the 4895 powders? The 60% rule on 4895 works in the 458WM just fine and the others I listed are easy to light and highly probable to be able to develop the light load you want in only short experiments over a Chronograph. I personally use AA 2015 in my cast loads for about 1750 FPS with 485 grain bullet using 51 grains. I would guess that somewhere between 60-65 grains would launch a 350 at your 1950 fps target speed. Sir Ron will chime it with lots of help at his first opportunity I am sure. Best regards, F01
Some of the powders I have are: Accurate and IMR4064, Accurate 2015, and Accurate 2230 powders. I should have some 4895, I will have to look. The plated bullets are relegated to lower velocities, these are spec'ed for the 45/70 and have a knurled crimp groove. What I have been finding is loads for the 450 Marlin and 45/70 using this bullet, and even a lot of these loads exceed 1,950fps. Will these "light" loads be a problem in the larger 458 case? IE hang-fires, or erratic velocities? Would there be a need to use fillers with these lighter loads to get consistent ignition and velocities? I would like to keep the velocity around 1,800 fps to prevent the plating from coming off.
Asante sana-sana, Sir Dennis, for the flowers. (We are switching the Elvis lingo to Swahili, as a nod to the "African" history of the King of Cartridges. No more Afrikaans donkey crap, and French just ain't cricket.)
The Old Virginian, You have earned a seat at the Square Table. Pick your Knight handle please. Sir Virginian ? That would be quite the honorable sobriquet, IMHO. My Father's folk started out from Jamestown in 1607. Kentucky was a county of Virginia until 1792, etc., etc.
The Berry's Bullets that I tried in the .458 WinMag were their old version of 405-grainers FN grease-grooved. With the blue lube, they weighed 409 grains, had a diameter of .459" and BHN 20. Great bullets for the .45-70 Gov't.
Maybe you have the copper plated 350-grainers ? Probably also best in .45-70 Gov't.
SAAMI .45-70 spec is for a groove diameter minimum of .456". Many factory .45-70 rifles will be .457" to .458", in groove diameter, with twists of 1:18" to 1:21" usually, and almost no throat. Your Berry's 350-grainers at 1950 fps would be ideal in such a rifle.
My experience with the Berry's 405-gr greasers in the .458 WinMag was that they would shoot acceptably well if velocity was kept down to no more than 1400 fps, and 1200 fps was even better for accuracy. 26 grains to 30 grains of AA-5744 is all you need for that. That ballistics killed off herds of bison in the 1870s. It will sure do the same for deer in the woods now.
I would recommend trying the 350-gr Berry's Bullets by starting with 26.0 grains of AA-5744 in the .458 WinMag. Work up from there. Should be a fun load.
Jacketed or monometal copper/brass 350-grainers would be needed for best results in the .458 WinMag at higher velocities. Higher MV, faster twist, long throat, and bigger groove diameter were not kind to my .459" Berry's Bullets. I save those for .45-70 Gov't. use. Harder alloy, PC paint, gas check, and sizing to .460" to .461" for .458" to .459" grooves works better in the .458 WinMag.
Load data from any load manual or website can be used. Full-metal jacketed, lead bullet, or plated bullet load data can be used as long as the following standards are adhered to:
The data contains the correct grain weight of bullet.
Berry's max recommended velocity is not exceeded. (This info is displayed on bullet boxes and product webpages.)
Standard Plate Bullets Max Velocity: 1,250 fps.
Thick-Plate Bullets (TP) Max Velocity: 1,500 fps.
Do not over-crimp the bullet. Crimping so tight that bullet deformation occurs, or plating is separated causing visible exposure of the lead core will cause tumbling, key-holing, and reduced accuracy.
Load data containing bullet descriptions such as Plated (P,) Berry's Bullet (BERB,) Total Metal Jacket (TMJ,) Copper Plated (CP,) or CPJ (Copper Plated Jacket,) refers to plated bullet data.
Cartridge Overall Lengths (COL) are found in the load data being used. DO NOT EXCEED SAAMI MAX COL SPECS.
Buyers and users assume all risk, responsibility and liability whatsoever for any and all injuries (including death), losses or damages to persons or property (including consequential damages), arising from the use of any product or data, whether or not occasioned by seller’s negligence or based on strict liability or principles of indemnity or contribution. It is the buyer's responsibility to educate themselves in safety standards associated with handloading ammunition.
Above specs are from Berry's Bullets web site. They do not say that applies to .458 WinMag.
Those 350-grainers must be heavily plated. Might be able to try in the .458 WinMag by starting low and working up, watch what happens to accuracy. Would consider H4895 max load of 80 grains with 350gr bullets as a conservative max baseline, about 2400 fps in your .458 WinMag with 24" barrel. Starting load would be 48 grains H4895 for a higher velocity (1800 fps maybe ?) low pressure starting load. H4198 starting at 40 grains with a filler would be a good starting point too. I would use a foam wad (caulk backer rod) filler with H4198 or H4895.
I am kind of stuck on 400-grainers. Have not used the 350-grainers much except testing to 2800 fps with the 350-gr TSX. H4198 is the powder there, at doses up to 81.0 grains , seated long.
72.0 gr of H4198 is a good 2526 fps MV load for the 350-gr. Hornady RNSP at COL of 3.165" in WW brass with F215 primer. Might try backing down from that with a filler, looking for accuracy at no more than 1950 fps. Maybe around 50 grains with filler.
Above specs are from Berry's Bullets web site. They do not say that applies to .458 WinMag.
Those 350-grainers must be heavily plated. Might be able to try in the .458 WinMag by starting low and working up, watch what happens to accuracy. Would consider H4895 max load of 80 grains with 350gr bullets as a conservative max baseline, about 2400 fps in your .458 WinMag with 24" barrel. Starting load would be 48 grains H4895 for a higher velocity (1800 fps maybe ?) low pressure starting load. H4198 starting at 40 grains with a filler would be a good starting point too. I would use a foam wad (caulk backer rod) filler with H4198 or H4895.
I am kind of stuck on 400-grainers. Have not used the 350-grainers much except testing to 2800 fps with the 350-gr TSX. H4198 is the powder there, at doses up to 81.0 grains , seated long.
72.0 gr of H4198 is a good 2526 fps MV load for the 350-gr. Hornady RNSP at COL of 3.165" in WW brass with F215 primer. Might try backing down from that with a filler, looking for accuracy at no more than 1950 fps. Maybe around 50 grains with filler.
Those in blue are the bullets I have. Yes they are for the 45/70, and I just measured them at .458"-4575" diameter. My goal is to develop just a blasting load, to get trigger time with the rifle.
I bought the rifle to take to S.A. but I couldn't get the paperwork done in time. I ended up using the PH's rifle. Confession time, I was actually in the market for a 458 Lott, but this gun came up. The more I shoot it the more I realize I ended up with the better caliber. One thing is I wouldn't be able to form Lott cases from anything I have.
My plan is to down-load the cartridge to a power level to be usable here in the east. 458 American or 45/70 is what I have in mind. Like everyone else, I have been struggling to find reloading components, that is why I bought these plated bullets. I don't plan to add any more calibers, so I will need to use the plated bullets in my 458 WM.
From what I have read so far, those here shoot from Cape Buffalo to Ground Hogs with their 458s. :-) I am here to learn all I can about this versatile caliber. I am far from new to guns and reloading. just new to the 458 WinMag.
That will work for a plinker. FortuneCookie45LC used a soft-cast, PC painted and lubed 340-grainer sized to .458" as a barely supersonic plinker from his .458 WM, using 16 grains of Unique and no filler. The Berry's plated bullet should work as well or better.
AA-5744 might do even better (no filler needed), and don't forget to try H4198 and H4895 with filler. Speaking of H4895, here is an abbreviated re-run of "No Name Handloader's" work:
H4895 can be used for just about anything good, bad or ugly in the .458 WinMag.
Thinking about No Name Handloader's work with H4895 ... it does give me a place to hang a starting load quite safely with 730-gr bullets in the .458 WinMag. Using his recommended maximum charge of 56.0 grains (based on one shot), backed up by his firing of 2 shots of 54.0 grains, and one shot of 52.0 grains ... For the lowest reduced load to safely try with H4895: 0.60 X 56.0 grains = 33.6 grains Heck fire, make it 35 grains for an extra margin of safety against detonation kaboom. Work up 1 grain at a time instead of 2, the better to discern any accuracy nodes along the way.
I am giving up on expecting gilt-edged accuracy from my 400-ish-grain HiVel-HardCast. Here is the best I got at 100 yards, last time out:
The slightly harder version in BHN25 alloy might be more accurate, or dare I think of heat treating to +30 BHN ? No matter. The silver lining in this cloud is that the 400-ish grainer HardCast/PC-painted/GC bullets work well as surrogate bullets in another way: Load development for ladder workups with a chosen powder to establish expected velocity with the super-premium bullet. Good substitute for an expensive bullet like the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Near identical results on velocity per grain of powder.
I will be satisfied with my former combo:
579-grainer at about 1400 fps MV, zeroed at 50 yards will allow an accurate and practical trajectory for the 407-grainer at about 2170 fps MV, out to 200 yards with same sighting, whether irons or scope.
To review, where both loads land at 50 yards with same scope setting:
Zero this one at 100 yards and it lands a couple of feet low at 200 yards:
The 1400 fps/579-gr load is the kind of trajectory Sir Saint Bill Bagwell could use effectively at 500 yards. That would make a bloody big hole through any critter. An H4895 ladder with this 579-gr bullet is not quite as interesting to me as doing the same thing with the 407-grainer. Check velocity starting with 48.0 grains + filler in 1-grain steps until 72.0 grains, then go for compression until 2500 fps reached. Just for kicks.
That will work for a plinker. FortuneCookie45LC used a soft-cast, PC painted and lubed 340-grainer sized to .458" as a barely supersonic plinker from his .458 WM, using 16 grains of Unique and no filler. The Berry's plated bullet should work as well or better.
AA-5744 might do even better (no filler needed), and don't forget to try H4198 and H4895 with filler. Speaking of H4895, here is an abbreviated re-run of "No Name Handloader's" work:
H4895 can be used for just about anything good, bad or ugly in the .458 WinMag.
The 56 grain load gives 4761 foot pounds of energy I calculate.
The 56 grain load gives 4761 foot pounds of energy I calculate.
Sample loads for momentum comparison:
730 grains at 1714 fps >>> 4761 ft-lbs KE <<< 179 lbs-fps Momentum (WFN cast-bullet freight train will be hard to stop.)
Compare to Sir Jerry's .458 WM+ TBSS from a 24"-barreled .458 WM M70 with 3.545" COL, 83.0 gr AA-2460, WW brass/F215:
500 grains at 2368 fps >>> 6225 ft-lbs KE <<< 169 lbs-fps Momentum (Quite the penetrator too, no doubt.)
400-grainer at 2122 fps >>> 4000 ft-lbs KE <<< 121 lbs-fps Momentum 500-grainer at 2122 fps >>> 5000 ft-lbs KE <<< 152 lbs-fps Mo' Momentum 600-grainer at 2122 fps >>> 6000 ft-lbs KE <<< 182 lbs-fps Most Momentum
Other favorites: 400-grainer at 2627 fps >>> 6129 ft-lbs KE <<< 150 lbs-fps Mo 400-grainer at 2599 fps >>> 6000 ft-lbs KE <<< 149 lbs-fps Mo 400-grainer at 2500 fps >>> 5551 ft-lbs KE <<< 143 lbs-fps Mo 400-grainer at 2400 fps >>> 5116 ft-lbs KE <<< 137 lbs-fps Mo 400-grainer at 2373 fps >>> 5000 ft-lbs KE <<< 136 lbs-fps Mo
I have some evidence suggesting that after 5 firings of full house loads maybe we should retire our .458 WinMag brass to plinking loads.
An acquaintance shooter of .223 Remington bolt action bugholer experienced this at the shooting bench next to mine. His 100-yard, 5-shot groups would fit into one of my bullet holes ...
Maybe CFE 223 would have been a lower pressure load for same velocity and accuracy. IMR-3031 is pretty fast burn rate for a 77-grainer .223 Rem load. However, the front half of the separated case fell out of the rifle when the rifle was raised to vertical with bolt open. No indications of excessive pressure ever noted according to the victim. Use once-fired brass to make up your "safari handloads" even if it is a .223 Rem safari rifle. To take a .458 Winchester Magnum along as backup, on any hunt is also a good idea. Like Uncle John said:
That kind of separation is stretching isn’t it? That always hits my mind as the fault of the reloader first and the brass second. Your thoughts sir?
Sir Dennis,
Yes, stretching, and trimming, repeatedly until a separation occurs is the usual mechanism, suggesting maybe a little slop in the excess-headspace department bringing it on more quickly ...
Here is the factory "Precision Rifle" by Savage that suffered the insult:
Something like that format would make a good "shot mule" for testing .458 WinMag accuracy loads, heh-heh-heh.
I once had a case head/body separation on the first shot when fire-forming .410/404 Jeffery. Sizing down a 404 Jeffery case in a 450/400 NE 3" FL die. That produced a very weak shoulder, since the 450/400 NE 3" shoulder is even less abrupt than the 404 Jeffery. Using the .410-caliber pistol bullet in usual direction allowed the loaded cartridge to be driven deeper into the chamber. The primer lit and powder burned, pressure was achieved. Forward part of case stayed in chamber after bolt was opened to eject. Rear part of case fell out of the CZ 550 Magnum that had a .410-caliber Douglas barrel chambered with a Manson .410/404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express wildcat reamer. I never did that again. Reversed the Hornady pistol bullet and head-spaced on base of bullet jammed into the rifling. Flawless fire forming thereafter.
Makes one wonder about the precision of our head-spacing on the belt of the .458 WinMag, and the gimmick die to handle the belt more precisely. I have about a thousand cases fired three times. Segregating cases and keeping track. Have some new cases saved for once-firing before safari. Have some .458 Lott brass needing cutting down to 2.5" also, heh-heh-heh.
Sir Ron, Every chamber an individual indeed. I find my 458WM chamber to accept 2.515 brass just fine. So I have not trimmed in a while, as in did it once and quit... I also try pretty hard to not size any further down than it takes to hold a bullet, again trying not to move brass around too much. Sure wish Lee would make a collet "neck" size die for it. I guess they don't think enough of those would sell. I was thinking just yesterday about that belt to bolt face measurement dilemma in our 458's and stretching. I have never lost a case but probably have only 4 maybe five reloads on the older ones. Let's hope this is a problem of the "maybe" only and the magnificent 458WM is just as terrific to the brass as it is to the launched bullets yes? Best regards, F01
Sir Dennis, Good advice there for long brass life, minimal working of the brass.
Your rifle must be in SAAMI spec, eh ? That allows for chamber length of 2.520", 20-thou longer than SAAMI max brass. I still like to allow at least 10-thou for brass stretching on moderate loads. I never trim shorter than 2.500" brass max if I can "heppit," and will let my brass grow to 2.505" before trimming back down to 2.500". For low pressure loads I would be happy to let it go to 2.510" before trimming.
How I got a case head separation on initial fire-forming of Norma 404 Jeffery JRNE brass to 410/404 JRNE:
Note the Wisner floor plate above is required to get that sixth Jeffery-based cartridge into the mag box, yet still too tight. Not so if the rifle was a .458 WM+. It would easily become a 6+1 Slick-Seven-Shooter.
Lessons learned, nostalgia is so much better the second time around, settling on the .458 Winchester Magnum instead of diddling with anything else like this:
All of that trouble for .410/400-grainers at 2150 to 2400 fps seems silly, mea culpa, when the .458 WinMag in a factory rifle easily does +2500 fps with .458/404-grain Shock Hammers.
That way lies madness. The .458 Winchester Magnum is a much better choice. I am going to go see if the .458 WM rim comes anywhere near to working on that 404 Jeffery bolt face ...
He has an unfoundedly poor opinion of Hornady .458 WM brass IMHO. I hope he knows more about Peterson brass than he knows about Hornady brass, to wit: I am ordering some Peterson basic cylindrical. I also responded to the Hornady insult with this:
Hornady factory "Heavy Magnum" loads were loaded to SAAMI standards with their 500-grainers at 2260 fps (24" barrel) way back in 2006. They may have been using W-W brass when they first started loading the .458 WM, but they have had plenty of time to perfect their .458 WM brass. Current factory loads by Hornady are an honest 2140 fps with 500-grainers from a 24" barrel, with flawless Hornady brass performance. Unfortunately the bullets used for those old "Heavy Magnum" loads were "crap." Bless their hearts, Hornady finally learned to make decent bullets with their DGX-Bonded and DGS. Their older SN bullets came apart badly at high velocity, and any RN FMJ is not optimal. I think the Lottite movement just could not tolerate top .458 WinMag performance. Lottites are known for sensitive egos and shoulders. (Hornady .458 WM loads doing only 40 fps less than the exalted .458 Lott and doing it at shorter COL and 2,500 psi less pressure was more than the Lottites could tolerate, especially Ross Seyfried, bless his heart too.)
Cutting the Peterson down to 2.5" will be interesting to compare to the Hornady, Winchester, Remington, and Norma. Oh, yeah, I never did check the Federal case capacity, but have a small bit of that from Federal factory loads, plain and nickel-plated. Never did find any Federal .458 WM component brass for sale. Then I have some old Norma and Hornady basic cylindrical, Hornady .458 Lott, Remington .416 RM, etc. The possibilities are more than I can shake a stick at. Case capacity comparisons to come. I'll surely be quick to buy more Hornady .458 WM brass whenever they do another run.
The case capacity results will be informative. Most of my 458 Winchester brass are WW. I bought in bulk many years ago, following a dry spell of seasonal production runs.
I stated using Hornady brass out of necessity for the 375 & 416 Ruger cartridges. All I can say is, I have not shat-canned the cartridges because of terrible brass. No it is not Laupa, but seems workable.
The Hornady brass is all I have for the 458 Lott. It is not a pretty or perfect as a couple of other brands, but plenty useable for me. Until Michael458 helped me out, I definitely ran some higher pressures than intended or spec'd for the 458 Lott.
The bonded .458 DGX seems to be a very usable bullet. Yep, bless their hearts, Finally!!
Thanks for the interest, Sir Larry. Peterson brass is on the way. I dug out some other brass and was getting ready to weigh some water when a storm knocked out power here. 20,000 customers in my grid area lost power. I'll get to it when they get the downed trees off the power lines. Sheesh! Typing on cellphone in the dark.
Storm knocked out power to over 400,000 in KY, some still don't have electricity. I only went about 17 hours without it. Winds were up to 80 mph gusts, Alaskan style usual breeze. Blew some shingles off a relative's house, need to help her with that. Lot's of folks repairing their knocked down fences, etc. Next day was calm and sunny and same today. I fired 10 rounds of Federal ammo today to get some cases to water-weigh. Peterson stuff will be here in a day or two maybe. Here is how I am going to cut it off to 2.5", multiple methods, with electricity:
Good to hear regarding the Peterson brass. Always good to have another option. Not much differences in the brass capacities until the Norma. Hopefully, Norma will have a bit more presence in the USA once their headquarters relocation is completed.
The .416 325 grain Maximus is still awaiting bc testing results. Though, CEB estimated/guesstimated "around .450". To be determined. No doubt the .416 325 grain Shock Hammer fills the slot. But, still nice to have another option. I don't think there will be much meaningful differences in terminal performance.
I have been and next month will be going to So Africa for Cow Buff. 404 Shock Hammer 80 gr AA2230 Fed215 primer loaded to 3.680 coal for 2460 fps out of a stock CZ550 at 15 feet. sighted in a 1 1/2 high at 50 yards it is right on at 200 and broke my 5/8 AR 500 plate so this should be fine to go. Would like to get a few more down range for grins but the snow is to deep to get out to the targets now
Good to hear that. May the red gods smile upon your safari. Break a leg and bon voyage, etc. For any reports on dead buffalo, asante-sana-sana in advance.
If the Peterson brass formed to .458 WinMag comes out with smaller case capacity than any other I have measured, seating the bullet out by 0.100" will add 4.166 grains of water capacity for each step. With Winchester, Hornady, Remington and Federal brass, case capacity is 94-95 grains. Norma brass is 99-100 grains. Could Peterson be as small as 90-91 grains ? Even if so, equivalent net case capacity roughly: Norma: ~3.280" COL W-W, R-P, Hornady, Federal: ~3.380" Peterson: ~3.480"
Or use them all with same COL and use less of same powder in the Peterson ... more velocity per grain of powder would come from the Peterson. Less recoil for velocity achieved. Less is more with the .458 WinMag. That is why the Lottites flinch so much.
I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead if 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same bras
I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead if 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same bras
Sir John, Good .458 WM+ load. Probably less than SAAMI MAP for the .458 Lott, so it is less than R.I.P. MAP for the .458 WM+. When I get the Peterson brass fired, I will check the gross water capacity, once-fired and not re-sized, and trimmed to 2.500" or corrected by calculation if short, as is customary for my comparisons. The QuickLOAD default case capacities use that sort of value. If default .458 WM brass is 95.0 grains, then NORMA brass would be 100.0 grains. Peterson brass TBD.
I have some dummy cartridges loaded for M70 Super Express Classic. 404 Shock Hammer, COL 3.3395" seems reliable function. Though, I am going to seat somewhere between there and slightly less. This magazine box is unaltered and seems a bit short, particularly at the top. I will investigate further, but good enough for the present.
I may try an H&H magazine box or another of the same type. But, I think 2350 fps + will be comfortably achievable as is with the 22" barrel. I am going to start with either 74 or 75 grains of A2230 using virgin WW brass.
The Interarms Mark X that I have will take a COAL that will not fit in the classic Super Express's magazine box.
Sounds like a good plan, Sir Larry. You'll get more velocity per grain of powder with the 404-gr Shock Hammer seated like that than what Speer shows here:
Weird is all I can say about the short M70 Super Express mag box. Could it be one of those Monday or Friday rifles circa Connecticut closing in 2006 ? Maybe one of the depressed employees grabbed the wrong box in assembly ? Close, but no cigar on that one ?
Speaking of mag boxes and assembly, my FN Mauser with 24", 1:10" twist Pac-Nor is finally moving in the one-man assembly line at Hilltop Gun Shop and Spa for Wayward Rifles. Gunsmith messaged a blurry photo yesterday asking if this was OK:
I said it was swell, looks like a Westley Richards front sight ramp placement. Stylish. He used the barrel sights that came off of my 19.75"-barreled .458 B&M+, with No. 4 sporter Pac-Nor, 1:10" twist, when I had it cut down to 16.9" barrel length. That is where the old front sight fitted on a No. 5 sporter Pac-Nor cut to 24". Sweet. So I will eventually have a 24" fast twist .458 WinMag to compare to a same maker/twist 16.9" barrel on the .458 B&M+. Mag box on the .458 WinMag is a Sunny Hill that is about 3.470" inside length, IIRC, drop box. Should be interesting. Both can share the same suppressor or muzzle brakes. One or the other might be better for subsonic work or VLD supersonic plinking, will see eventually, heh-heh-heh.
Having to make .458 WinMag brass out of "wildcat tubes" got me thinking about the .458 WinRuger again. I never did it justice since it was done half-heartedly to clean up a .458 WinMag chamber that had factory chatter rings in the chamber. It may need a second look to make use of the Hornady-Ruger brass lying about. A review, comments welcome:
I cannot fully explain the differences between my .458 WinMag results, compared to the .458 WinRuger. Maybe a second trial with formed brass would allow the .458 WinRuger to handle more AA-2230 ? Maybe it is a result of the one rifle I have tried in .458 WinRuger (Whitworth Mark X) having some idiosyncracy? It was put together by re-chambering the .458 WinMag with a Ruger-body reamer and a .458 Lott reamer for neck, leaving the remnant .458 WinMag throat. I am quite certain the unimproved Ruger-body is sufficient, producing adequate shoulder. Neck length of .375" might be criticized as relatively better than what is on a .500 Jeffery. The .416 Ruger neck length is .339" and it does well.
The effective throat on my prototype .458 WinRuger is only 0.080" shorter than on the .458 WinMag, due to the brass difference: 2.580" max versus 2.500" max. I need a new barrel and a purpose-built reamer to be fair to the .458 WinRuger.
Wildcatter264 is our newest Four-Five-Eight Fellow, Knight of the Square Table, Sir Khulu (Ndebele for "old man") might be interested in doing this, to add to his experience with a 404/.416 Ruger, .458 WinMag, 460 G&A, .450 Rigby, etc. Most old men usually settle on the .458 WinMag, after the new wears off the others. But a .458/.416 Ruger with a .458 WinMag throat makes good enough sense. Sir Khulu has mentioned having JES do a .458 re-bore of a .416 Ruger. Shazam !
The Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan with the 20” bbl is currently at JES undergoing rebore to 458. Soon as it’s back it’ll be pressed into experimental service to determine feasibility of making the Zim trip in July. Reports on load development will follow then, using the CEB BBW #13 450 & 500 grain monolithic solids.
Agree with Sir Ron’s capacity measurements for the 458 Ruger preliminarily formed from Ruger 375-Basic brass but not yet fireformed. I use BL C-2 as the volume measuring medium, as its specific density is very close to water equivalence and doing so saves wet case dry outs. Based on my tests with the Hornady brass which I use for this class of cartridge - 375, 404, 458 based on the Ruger case - capacity measured to base of a seated bullet - not to the shoulder-neck junction or mouth of case - with the BBW #13 450 grain 87.0 grains and with the 500 grain it’s 81.0 grains. Both are based on COAL = 3.4” limited by the Hawkeye’s magazine and bullet groove crimp locations. These parameters allow use of the unmodified Hawkeye magazine box and based on preliminary tests in a Hawkeye African, buttery smooth feeding. Capacity is 3 down and 1 in the chamber. - the classic 4 quick shots, if needed in the herds.
Most of the experimentation will be focused on defining the appropriate burning rate powders to achieve 100% load density with little to no compression. Will probably start with RL-17 and H-4350. Both work well in the 404-375 Ruger but may prove slow with the 458 Ruger. RL-16 and possibly IMR 4451 may be candidates if faster burning rates are required.
Anything .458 caliber is cool IMHO, from .45-70 and SOCOM to .460 G&A and Weatherby. Always interesting to hear how which bullet at what MV did at what range to what critter.
IMR-4451: I have not tried it, but might have put some in the powder locker. Or was that IMR-4166 ? Would have to dig to see. IIRC, IMR-4451 burn rate is a tad slower than IMR-4350. and IMR-4166 is a tad slower than IMR-4895, but faster than IMR-4064. But both are Enduron powders that cut copper fouling and have good temperature insensitivity.
IMR-8208 XBR is slightly faster than IMR-4895, super-short-grained, tops in temperature insensitivity, and I can vouch for a lot of good load data with that in .458 B&M, .458 WinMag, and .458 Lott, pressure tested and chronographed by Michael McCourry in South Carolina. That would be my next choice to test in the .458/.416 Ruger.
As suggested by Sir Bevan: Another good one to consider is CFE 223, ball powder, good for +2200 fps in the .458 WinMag with 500-grainers, at 3.340" COL or less and 60,000 psi or less. Ought to be great with heavy bullets in the .458/.416 Ruger.
Peterson Cartridge Company H&H-Belted Wildcat Tube fire-formed to .458 Winchester Magnum, with a delightful, low-recoiling, very uniform starting load for the .458 WM+:
A Ruger M77 Mk II with 25" Shilen, 1:14"-twist barrel, was used. Scope was a Nikon 3-9x40mm SlugHunter with 75-yard parallax, in medium-height Ruger extension rings:
Not quite ready for King of Two Mile, but this is the brass to use for the competition. When I get the 1:10" twist FN Mauser out of the spa, some experimenting with supersonic VLD heavy bullets is in order. I got a taller tripod and now I can chronograph at the 100-yard public range position, where the ground drops off more in front of the bench, as long as I hang a sandbag under the tripod to keep the wind from blowing it over.
Sir Bob and Sir Larry, Asante-sana-sana. Peterson brass will definitely be my pick for King of Too Far shooting with the .458 WinMag. 10-pound weight limit and 3-pound trigger rule. We'll put those contestants from King of Two Mile to shame. They are invited to the match, bring on the .375 Chey-Tac, but they have to make the weight limits. An FN Mauser .458 WinMag (still at the spa) will be my entry.
Sir Khulu is building a .458 WM Hawkeye. It will be backup for his .460 G&A safari. He will be leaving his .458 WM ammo with his wise PH who favors a .458 WM. All the ammo will all be elephant-adequate, I am sure.
THE ILLUSTRATED BOOK OF GUNS, edited by David Miller, shows a model for a modern revival of Creedmoor-style rifle matches, to be called the Forty-Five-Moor Matches. Rifle below is going to have to go on a diet to make weight after getting some new sights:
Any .45-Bore, 10-pound rifle with 3-pound trigger. Same ranges and targets as used in 1874. BP or smokeless, it's all good. Any bullet type, any bullet weight, barrel twist to match bullet as needed. Any sight type, irons or scopes. Shooting may be done from prone or back position or sitting ... with shooting sticks allowed. Muzzle brakes and suppressors OK too.
One possible entrant is still a work in progress, a .458 WinMag, FN Mauser, 24" barrel, 1:10" twist, for use with smokeless and VLD match bullets:
It would be fun to catalog some "accuracy node" loads for particular .458 WinMag rifles and other .45-bores. Could be a guide for contestants preparing for the Forty-Five-Moor Matches that are sure to be the next shooting craze. Folks are going to be tiring of the 6.5 Creedmoor craze none too soon.
Replaced the magazine in the classic Super Express. Best guess on the shorter coal limitation, piss poor manufacturing / forming of original magazine.
The rifle fed fine, doubtful if factory ammo would have ever been an issue with coal. But, the ends on the forward most top are bent inward, one of the rear top was also, the upper top end of magazine was about.040's less length than the bottom 3.4".
The replacement should comfortably allow 3.350-3.360 coal of the 404 Hammer.
Sir Ron, This one definitely should have been a cull from the get-go. Although with factory loaded COAL's it was not noticeable. And if the cartridges fit, feeding was a non-issue.
Anyways, I have some space in there now. I landed on the Hammer 404 at 3.370". I could have went longer. But, this gives me some slack inside. And, I liked the location the case mouth landed in the 2nd groove.
Preliminary loads of A2230 are 76, 78, 80 grains. The weather is still not cooperating as to snow and temperatures for a chronograph session.
Will review data and load a few of the 380 Lehigh Flat Points and 350 North Fork E-CPS tomorrow.
Sir Larry, That is optimum for the .458 WM+ with 404 SH, 3.370" with 2.490" brass length or 3.380" with 2.500" brass length.
The FN Mauser with Sunny Hill mag box was found to feed well from the right side of box but problems on the left side of box ... a minor delay in completion to correct this. Gunsmith will work his magic on the Mauser feed rails.
After working for the last couple of weeks on rebarrelling my Ruger Hawkeye African from my 404-375 Ruger wildcat I designed and used in Africa to 458 WM, I finally shot it today with a variety of test loads.
Although I already have a Ruger M-77 PF TS 458 WM, I have never been satisfied with the way it feeds cartridges, especially the CEB BBW#13 solids I prefer. It’s spotty. Thus, I decided to modify one of the Ruger #1 458 WM barrels I had on the bench to fit my Hawkeye action. Also modified the Rimrock stock to accommodate the heavier barrel. Finished weight for the ‘new’ Hawkeye 458 WM is 10 lbs 9 oz, with 3 in the mag and one in the chamber. Just right to make it portable and easy on the shoulder.
After today’s session I now feel that I have a true 458 WM DGR. Perfectly timed CRF feeding with the BBW #13s, quite controllable from the bench for testing and groups at 25 yds cutting holes. Not bad for a used barrel. It’ll need rebluing at some point but for now it gives the rifle character.
The longer mag box in the Hawkeye allows COAL up to 3.420”, though I settled on 3.380” with the BBW #13 450 grain solids I used in today’s initial test fire. MV ranged up to 2222 fps from the 24” barrel with very easy extraction and enough room in the case to push it further.
Final interesting finding today was the final firing. I had 2 left over cartridges from last year loaded with Barnes 500 grain solids and 74 grains AA-2230. MVs were 2295 & 2302 fps measured at 20 ft from the muzzle. COAL with these was shorter as they were originally loaded for the M-77’s PF TS shorter mag box. I’ll plan to try 1-2 grain less powder and 3.390” COAL next time with 500 grain CEB BBW #13 solids, as the MV is more than I expected and not the silky extraction of the 450 grain BBWs. I suspect this is loaded hotter than I want in a DG hunting load.
An interesting experiment so far. If the next couple of range sessions work out like this one, I’ll plan to take this rifle as the Zim backup in a few months. It’s turned out pretty good so far.
I have a spare Portuguese M70 in 338 WM, who can convert into 458 WM. I figure I can get a Pacnor on it but who can do the sights/rest of it? S.
Gene Simillion in CO does very good work on turning Win M-70s into reliable DGRs. He’ll talk to you if you call him or email him. Pretty quick turn around time.
Edit: the original one had ML stamped on the side.
New new magazine box is going to require tuning for the 380 grain Lehigh Flat Points. It feeds the Hammers fine at longer lengths.
But, not the flat point Lehigh. The original ML magazine box has the upper forward corners angled inwards. This new one needs the same. Regardless of the numerous coal that I tried, feeding is from not happening to terrible at best.
The angled bends guide the fat flat point to center of feed ramp and feeding is smooth at the desired length, and longer or shorter. The ML box allows longer COAL than I will be using for this flat point.
I don't think adjusting the 1030 box will be too difficult. While still maintaining the longer coal to accommodate the intended Hammer COAL. We shall eventually see. A back up 1030 has been ordered. I have not been able to locate a ML box. Meanwhile the ML box is reinstalled and flat point solids are the near future project.
Sir Goober, You have earned a seat at the Square Table for that.
I am having internet connectivity problems, got a service call coming tomorrow. I got temporarily reconnected seems to die after 15 minutes. Will see how long it lasts, hopefully long enough to post a review the Colt Sauer Grand African .458 WinMag. Lots more great stuff here by the other Knights of the Square Table for us to ponder too ...
From Sir Ron’s sublime - the Grand African - to a ridiculous non sequitur, my current project - the Ruger Hawkeye African 458 WM working DGR. It’s a Ruger Hawkeye African rebarreled with a used Ruger #1 458 WM barrel. The plan is to carry this rifle as part of a 2 gun battery in Zim this summer.
Current status, with pics below, was to get the rifle to operational DGR status. That is flawless feeding and ejection with modern FP monolithic solids and accurate out to DG ranges. So, it shoots accurately with both open irons and rear peep sights out to 25 yds so far, feeds and ejects reliably, and handles well in the Rimrock/Pacific Research stock I carried over from when this rifle was a 404-375 Ruger.
The exterior appearance - the ridiculous part - is not pretty, but businesslike with past use in its prior life obvious. When I get back I’ll have the barreled action properly polished and reblued. Next task is to develop loads with the 500 gn CEB BBW #13 solids, aiming for 2150-2200 fps MV. Given the longer mag box of the Hawkeye, AA-2230 should get me there. Pushing the range out to 50 and 100 yds should complete the testing.
Sir Tony, Here are some more that were undo-able until I got a new 'puter modem and could shrink them to gallery-capable size here. First, across the thigh of a nice lady who did her hubby a favor on the AfricaHunting.com forum:
Some years ago I came across this SCI rifle somewhere on the web:
Nostalgia. Before the time of the Lottite quislings. Sure would have been easy to convert the Grand African to a .458 WM+. If it had a .458 Lott SAAMI chamber it would not be Grand anymore.
I applaud your project with the Hawkeye-No.-1-Hybrid rifle, not to mention the other project of yours in converting a Ruger M77 "Mark I" into a "Mark II" CRF .458 WinMag, WOW !! That will be a remarkable feat for us to try to copy.
You will have no problems reaching your goals with the Ruger No. 1 barrel on the Hawkeye. That Ruger No. 1 barrel will be stiffly accurate ! Sir Bob and I have lots of Ruger No. 1 .458 WM+ load data that might save you some powder and bullets.
My rediscovery of the .458 WinMag Wondergun started with something similar, a CZ 550 Magnum barrel fitted to a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action from 1950. The CZ 550 Magnum barrel is whippy by comparison to your barrel. However, accuracy can be tuned into even a whippy barrel. This will be a good chance to show an accuracy node illustration for a .458 rifle ...
... not to mention the pressure ring in diameter changes bouncing back and forth along the barrel from breech to muzzle at +18,000 fps, whatever the speed of sound is in the barrel steel !
The three-shot St.dev. for the 2250 fps load was 6 fps. For the 2342 fps load the St.dev. for three shots was 5 fps. Not statistically significant, OK, but hints that mean velocity level is important for the sweet spot, more so than the standard deviation of whatever higher or lower velocity. Every record-keeping, velocity-checking handloader looking for best accuracy in a particular rifle has noted that fact. For the rest it is just a happy accident, we hope.
Good information, Sir Ron. I’ll take you up on the load data. I’ve found that powder data for the Barnes Banded Solid produces extremely similar MVs with the equivalent weight CEB BBW#13. That finding was reproducible with the 570 grain 0.509” in the 500 NE 3” with different powders, within the same burn rate range. I’ll have to look at my data for the 404s to remind me if that was the case in those cartridges as well.
Experienced good news/bad news today. USPS dropped off the Win M-70 Classic Gene Simillion built for me in 460 G&A. The quality is exactly what I expected. I’ll post some pictures and details in a few weeks. The bad news is that the mail handlers had cracked the stock clean in 2 at the wrist. Curses!!!
As soon as I let Gene know he immediately said - send it back and he’ll replace the stock and bed it again. Still have high hopes the G&A will make it to Zim, but based on the Hawkeye’s performance so far, I’m leaning to using each rifle for each tuskless. Shows the value of always having a plan B because nature tends to be perverse.
Sir Khulu, Condolences on the broken stock. $#it happens. I had some early CZ 550 Magnum "Safari Classic" rifles from circa 2006.
I shot them a few times, just test fired, then I dutifully sent them to a wonderful gunsmith for crossbolts, pillars and glass bedding that the factory neglected. He was moving from a shop in Knoxville, TN to Murfreesboro, TN at same time he got the job done. He drove them in the back of an SUV to Nashville, TN where I met him for the pickup. The .404 Jeffery emerged from the transport with a broken stock, the .505 Gibbs was fine. Bad grain structure in the Jeffery's wood is all I can figger:
CZ-USA replaced the stock free of charge. I got a "Kevlar" synthetic as they called it back then. They renamed it the "Aramid" after the Kevlar folks wanted royalties on the name, I guess. Bell & Carlson has been making them all along for the CZ 550 Magnum, and subsequently selling them for about 2/3 the price that CZ was getting. Those broken pretty stocks probably hastened the demise of the CZ 550 Magnum, bottom line thing.
Lesson learned, this is how I pay insurance on wooden stocks:
I gave the same treatment to a CZ 550 Magnum walnut stock with better grain in the grip and have perfect confidence in it. I would recommend this for any really powerful rifle like a .458 WM+. It is, afterall, more powerful than a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Other important securities to be considered in magazine-repeater bolt action rifles:
Not all rifles have bottom metal built like a bank vault, but some can be rebuilt like a brick dunny:
RL-7 should be speedy with those 380-gr WFN coppers. 53.0 grains of that in my 45-70 Marlin 1895 22" gave over 2000 fps with 400-grainers. Same charge of IMR-3031 was just a little over 1800 fps, satisfied Elmer just fine. I guess Sir Larry will be working up towards 70 grains of RL-7 in the .458 WM. Keep us posted, please.
Yesterday I started looking for loading dies for my 350 RM reamer that I have.
Ended up looking at 458 Lott light loads.
A 350 Speer and a starting load of RL 7 makes a nice 45-70!
Dang, what a way to burn up powder.
Yes, those .458 Lott's do waste more powder and kick harder than a .458 WinMag when both are loaded to duplicate the .45-70. Funny how you can have your cake and eat it too, with a .458 WinMag. The SAAMI twist for the .458 Lott is 1:10". Just one of many reasons why a SAAMI .458 WinMag is better with cast bullets than a SAAMI .458 Lott. However, I am awaiting a .458 WinMag build with a 1:10" twist, just to show how the .458 WinMag can overcome this handicap better than a .458 Lott.
Those who favor the SAAMI .458 Lott are like "woke" sheep, serving a nefarious agenda, like the K-12 kids being brainwashed by these teachers:
Nose ring:
Horus has no nose ring because it thinks it has a beak, and drilling a nose ring hole in a hawk beak is like fingernails on a chalk board:
Nose ball stud is same as a nose ring for IQ indicating sign:
Lower education has new meaning. Pray for the children. A Lottite can only be helped by a religious conversion.
From the cyclical reading of the Torah today. The guidance is clear as is the consequences to persons and nations. F01
21 You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.
24 “Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean, 25 and the land became unclean, so that I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you shall keep my statutes and my rules and do none of these abominations, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you 27 (for the people of the land, who were before you, did all of these abominations, so that the land became unclean), 28 lest the land vomit you out when you make it unclean, as it vomited out the nation that was before you. 29 For everyone who does any of these abominations, the persons who do them shall be cut off from among their people. 30 So keep my charge never to practice any of these abominable customs that were practiced before you, and never to make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God.”
From the cyclical reading of the Torah today. The guidance is clear as is the consequences to persons and nations. F01
21 You shall not give any of your children to offer them to Molech, and so profane the name of your God: I am the LORD. 22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination. 23 And you shall not lie with any animal and so make yourself unclean with it, neither shall any woman give herself to an animal to lie with it: it is perversion.
24 “Do not make yourselves unclean by any of these things, for by all these the nations I am driving out before you have become unclean, 25 and the land became unclean, so that I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you shall keep my statutes and my rules and do none of these abominations, either the native or the stranger who sojourns among you 27 (for the people of the land, who were before you, did all of these abominations, so that the land became unclean), 28 lest the land vomit you out when you make it unclean, as it vomited out the nation that was before you. 29 For everyone who does any of these abominations, the persons who do them shall be cut off from among their people. 30 So keep my charge never to practice any of these abominable customs that were practiced before you, and never to make yourselves unclean by them: I am the LORD your God.”
"Then those who feared the LORD talked with each other, and the LORD listened and heard. A scroll of rememberance was written in his presence concerning those who feared the LORD and honored his name.
"On that day when I act", says the LORD Almighty, "they will be my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as a father has compassion and spares his son who serves him. And you will again see the distinction between the righteous and the wicked, between those who serve God and those who do not." (Malachi 3: 16 - 18)
Yesterday I started looking for loading dies for my 350 RM reamer that I have.
Ended up looking at 458 Lott light loads.
A 350 Speer and a starting load of RL 7 makes a nice 45-70!
Dang, what a way to burn up powder.
Yes, those .458 Lott's do waste more powder and kick harder than a .458 WinMag when both are loaded to duplicate the .45-70. Funny how you can have your cake and eat it too, with a .458 WinMag. The SAAMI twist for the .458 Lott is 1:10". Just one of many reasons why a SAAMI .458 WinMag is better with cast bullets than a SAAMI .458 Lott. However, I am awaiting a .458 WinMag build with a 1:10" twist, just to show how the .458 WinMag can overcome this handicap better than a .458 Lott.
Those who favor the SAAMI .458 Lott are like "woke" sheep, serving a nefarious agenda, like the K-12 kids being brainwashed by these
Lower education has new meaning. Pray for the children. A Lottite can only be helped by a religious conversion.
Twist rate . Very interested in your up coming q in 10" twist 458 Winchester Sir Ron ! Very interested !
Not all rifles have bottom metal built like a bank vault, but some can be rebuilt like a brick dunny:
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I've been adding the same epoxy resin to my B&M caliber rifles since around 2010 they're about....it helps any feeding problem with Winchester Model 70 about the only problem that can be found with a Big Game rifle....
Twist rate . Very interested in your up coming q in 10" twist 458 Winchester Sir Ron ! Very interested !
Sir Spruce, You must have got the house done. Congrats. Yep, fast twist may not be much good with cast, like in a SAAMI .458 Lott, but playing with heavier and longer monometal bullets at both super- and sub-sonic will surely be fun. Reminds me of my inspiration for a renewed interest in .458 WM+:
The varmint bullet for the 30x113mm "Apache":
So versatile, for busting tanks and bunkers or bunny rabbits, just pick the right bullet for the job with the 30x113mm. For the .458 WM+, the 404-grainer will do it all:
Electric primer version of Big Bro':
Percussion primer version, note the BP starter charge ahead of the cap:
Whether 4000 grains at 2600 fps with the 30x113mm "Apache" or 400 grains at 2600 fps with the .458 WM+, the family resemblance is unmistakable. Fraternal twins !
"Whether 4000 grains at 2600 fps with the 30x113mm "Apache" or 400 grains at 2600 fps with the .458 WM+, the family resemblance is unmistakable. Fraternal twins !"
Request input from the Knights of the Square Table. I am in a quandary as I have now gone from a dearth of proper 0.458” elephant rifles for the Zim July hunt to 3. A matter of unanticipated gremlins and favorable but unplanned timing.
I have the Ruger Hawkeye African 458 WM which I’ve described here and which must make the trip because I will take 458 WM ammo for my PH to use in his Win M-70 Classic and so a rifle in that caliber must accompany the ammo. But now the 460 G&A I had built on a Win M-70 Classic action arrives tomorrow. And the Ruger RSM 450 Rigby Rimless Magnum which I had planned to take as my primary rifle, but developed feeding problems, has been repaired very rapidly by NECG’s Mark Cromwell and it arrives next week.
So here’s the problem I’m asking input from my brother Knights - which rifle rides in the case with the Hawkeye 458 WM? I have shot the RSM quite a bit and have a proven load with the 500 grain CEB BBW #13 at 2350 fps. I like this rifle. Because the RSM seemed out of action and it was not clear it would be ready in time, I had the 460 G&A built. Now both are ready and both will deliver a true 2350 fps MV with 500 grain monolithic solids.
I’m an inveterate wildcatter so the 460 G&A for an elephant hunt is very alluring. However, the RSM has a slimmed down stock that fits me quite well.
So THE QUESTION for the Square Table - which rifle would be your choice? The 450 Rigby RSM or the Win M-70 460 G&A?
It's not done but it's livable and paid for. And the work continues. As breakup is upon us . The starter gun has been fired. It's a mad dash to freeze up !!!! 😢😢💪
"Whether 4000 grains at 2600 fps with the 30x113mm "Apache" or 400 grains at 2600 fps with the .458 WM+, the family resemblance is unmistakable. Fraternal twins !"
😂 😂 I can see it !!!
Sir Larry, You are very discerning in your observations. Asante sana sana for playing the straight man to my schtick !
I now have another pet cartridge, just don't have a rifle for it yet. Until then I am sticking with Little Brother .458 WinMag.
Fast twist experiments coming for Little Brother with 24" barrel and 16.9" barrel on Cussin' Cousin .458 B&M+ with same net case capacity and same throat, both with 1:10" twist.
Of HIGH INTEREST to me: a M70 Super Grade .458 Winchester Magnum Cabela's 50th Anniversary just sold at my favorite emporium for $2500 less one dollar! It is like new with a KAPS 2 - 8 x 42 scope and lots of fine touches! It was "in" and "out" within 24 hrs.
Goes to show that .458s are still in high demand!
And the purchaser was obviously waiting for such a distinct buy because there were many other listed DGRs. Examples: a MerKel SxS in .375 H&H for $8999; Serengeti African .416 Rem $8999; H&H Magazine Rifle in .375 H&H (terrible drop at comb) for $25,000 less $1.
Obviously, the proposed buyers of those others would be sentimental art lovers. And there were several other .416s, .375s and .338s. Only the .338 WMs were relatively cheap.
https://ellwoodepps.com/winchester-model-70-super-grade-cabelas-50th-anniversary-edition.html Winchester Model MODEL 70 SUPER GRADE CABELAS 50TH ANNIVERSARY EDITION Calibre 458 WIN MAG Calibre Group Dangerous Game Barrel Length (inches) 23.5 Shots 4 Condition Excellent Legal Classification Non-Restricted Action Bolt Action Detail CHECKERED GRADE IV/V SATIN FINISHED WALNUT STOCK, BLACK GRIP CAP, RED RUBBER RECOIL PAD, SLING SWIVEL STUDS, BLACK FOREND CAP, MATTE BLUED FINISH, IRON SIGHTS, CONTROL FEED ACTION, HINGED FLOOR PLATE, WITH EAW QUICK RELEASE MOUNTS AND RINGS, AND KAPS 2-8X42 SCOPE, 30MM TUBE. CABELAS 50TH ANNIVERSARY EDITION ONLY 500 MADE, HINGED FLOOR PLATE HAS ENGRAVING AND GOLD ACCENT WITH CABELAS 50TH ANNIVERSARY LOGO. Sold This item has been sold.
Asante sana sana for your recent blogs, what with a shared interest in the .338-.375 mediums.
New powder of interest for the .458 WinMag and lesser calibers: Staball Match Hopefully this Winchester-labeled powder will get some use. It is a little faster than CFE 223. Supposed to be temperature stable and copper cleaning too.
Funny how you can find the new powders when the old standbys are scarce. I am not complaining. The .458 WinMag benefits from any of the powders good in the currently popular small bores.
$2499 Canadian was a steal for this, with EAW QR mounts and a KAPS 2-8x42mm scope, like new by looks of it:
I would still rather have the Canadian-made (Alberta) Near Mfg. Picatinny with a 25-MOA tilt for 1000-yard Creedmoor Match shooting with the .458 WinMag M70. The integral recoil stop on the bottom of the Picatinny is patented genius:
Nostalgic wood and 2.5X scope go well together. Using a 2-pound synthetic stock would allow for more scope and still make the 10-pound weight limit, for the 150th Anniversary "Creedmost" match. The 1956 model African was a stock smasher, quickly remedied by 1957 with addition of barrel lug and second crossbolt:
Just some guidance for the upcoming 150th Anniversary "Creedmost" Match:
10 pounds maximum rifle weight with any type sights (no ammunition on board). 3.0-pound minimum trigger pull weight. Any powder, smokeless or black or a combination. Any monometal copper, brass, lead or jacketed lead bullet whether greaser, paper-patched, or metal-patched, w/wo add-on ballistic tip. Sub-caliber sabot loads not allowed, but plastic-skirted, full-bore "Power Belt" bullets allowed for inclusivity of muzzle loaders, .40-.50-caliber, in case the UK/Irish Team shows up.
Nice link on a case capacity reference from Sir Khulu, but the author notes they are approximate, and "The values are averages from several sources." Still it is excellent reading and instruction on technique for measuring case capacities oneself, and it's the way I do it.
Here is a very specific case of case capacity comparison for the .458 B&M to the .458 WM. My technique was same for both, done at same sitting. One lot of brass for each, and the final result was corrected from the average length, shorter, case length actually used (once-fired brass with spent primer sealing bottom of case) to a specified maximum case length desired for comparison. This uses a .458"-diameter right cylinder of water 1.000" tall with weight of 41.66 grains water to fill that volume. Therefore, each extra length of case neck of 0.010" adds 0.4166 grains to case capacity. True that, in this case of cases.
As originally conceived, the .458 B&M was to have a maximum case length of 2.295" and COL max of 2.995", IIRC. In practice it had to be shortened to 2.240" max brass length and it still works within the constraints of 3.000" magazine box length. It also had a very short throat. Almost no throat.
Average for 10 cases of .458 B&M from Quality Cartridge: 2.295" brass = 97.3 grains water 2.240" brass = 95.0 grains water The .458 B&M brass formed from shortened .300 RUM cases from R-P have same case capacity. Same flavor of brass.
Average for 10 cases of .458 WM brass from R-P: 2.500" brass = 95.3 grains of water 2.490" brass = 94.9 grains of water
So for all practical purposes, case capacities are identical for .458 B&M at 2.240" brass length and .458 WM at 2.500" brass length
Just call it 95 grains water, like the default value in QuickLOAD for 2.500" .458 WM brass.
Norma .458 WM brass actually measured was 99.3 grains water. Norma .300 RUM brass turned into .458 B&M might also be bigger.
Peterson Wildcat Tube brass once-fired and corrected to 2.500" length held 93.8 grains water.
That is a good relative comparison, as good as any, not absolute, just relative. That is no theory of relativity, it is Viking Law. So, when loading the same bullets in those two cases of those trims, both will have the same net case capacity when the .458 WM COL is 0.260" longer. A .458 B&M with COL of 2.995" and a .458 WM with 3.255" have same net case capacity. A .458 WM with 3.340" COL will have a greater net case capacity by 3.541 grains of water.
To equal the case capacity of a 3.340" COL .458 WM with same bullet, the .458 B&M+ (long throat) must be loaded to COL of 3.080" The .458 B&M+ loaded to 3.340" COL has same case capacity as the .458 WM at 3.600" COL with same bullet, same seating depth. Both will beat a SAAMI .458 Lott at COL 3.600" with same bullet. Higher velocity or lower pressure or both.
Thank you. So if the Speer manual is correct, the 375 Ruger/ 416 Ruger brass should have a slight more capacity in equal calibers.
Yes, both by calculation and actual measurement, the 375 Ruger case has significantly more capacity than the 458 WM case. I routinely load 83-85 grains of extruded powders in the 375 Ruger or in my wildcat 404-375 Ruger with monolithic solids - which are long for weight - or Barnes TSXs . No significant powder compression is needed to load these bullets and stay withing the COAL required in the MKII/Hawkeye magazines of 3.390-3.40".
Getting that much powder into the 458 WM case and then seating a 450 grain monolithic solid requires significant compression, unless you stick to spherical powders, like AA-2230. I was able to load 80 grains of 2230 behind a CEB BBW#13 today at COAL = 3.390" without trouble but the same charge with Varget required significant compression with the same bullet.
Thank you. So if the Speer manual is correct, the 375 Ruger/ 416 Ruger brass should have a slight more capacity in equal calibers.
Yes, both by calculation and actual measurement, the 375 Ruger case has significantly more capacity than the 458 WM case. I routinely load 83-85 grains of extruded powders in the 375 Ruger or in my wildcat 404-375 Ruger with monolithic solids - which are long for weight - or Barnes TSXs . No significant powder compression is needed to load these bullets and stay withing the COAL required in the MKII/Hawkeye magazines of 3.390-3.40".
Getting that much powder into the 458 WM case and then seating a 450 grain monolithic solid requires significant compression, unless you stick to spherical powders, like AA-2230. I was able to load 80 grains of 2230 behind a CEB BBW#13 today at COAL = 3.390" without trouble but the same charge with Varget required significant compression with the same bullet.
True, all that. The RCBS Cartridge Creator algorithm shows .416 Ruger = 101.5 gr water .458/.416 Ruger = 104.2 gr water That is for a simple necking up of the .416 Ruger and keeping max brass length at 2.580" for both.
My fire-formed .458/.416 Ruger brass comes out 2.565" in length. Measured case capacity for that average is 104.47 grains water. Correcting to 2.580" max brass length gives 105.1 gr water.
Mine is a .458 Win Ruger and can be loaded to same long COL as the .458 WM+, which is a longer COL than the SAAMI .458 Lott can handle.
Since this has turned into a wildcatting thread, just a reminder that the .458 Win can have a 3.8" COL without messing with brass or barrels in some "standard" formats like the CZ 550 I once owned and now in my Ruger No.1H. Bob www.bigbores.ca
I just had a .50 B&M made up. Capacity is the same as the .458 win.
Sounds like an interesting rifle. What are you planning to hunt with it? How is the bullet selection?
Bullet length and depth of seating determines useable case capacity. In my Ruger No.1H, all bullets are seated 1/4" into the case, and that includes the long 500gr monolithics.
Agree on the seating depth / Usable case capacity. The 3.4'ish magazines with the longer bullets, I use 3.37 to 3.38" COAL. Some of the shorter and dependent on nose projection, I am at 3.225". Some of the lighter / shorter ones the rear shank diameter and length limits me from seating longer.
In the 458 Winchester, the 325 grain CEB Safari Solid is my shallowest seated bullet. I have not done the math subtraction. I am guessing there about a 1/4" of bullet in the brass. This is seated about 1/2 way on the 2nd band, allowing 2 full bands inside the brass. This bullet seems very secure without crimping. Though I do a light crimp the a Lee factory crimp die.
Yep, some of my WFN/blunt-nosed, +500-gr, hardcast bullets will barely fit inside of 3.340" COL in the .458 WinMag. And since they are sized to .460" or .461" to fit in a .458" or .459" barrel groove, for best accuracy and least leading, they will not even fit into a SAAMI .458 Lott throat at all !!! I would have to load them to a little over 2.8" COL in the .458 Lott. Deep seating, heh-heh-heh. The SAAMI .458 WinMag opens a can of whoop-ass on the SAAMI .458 Lott again.
BTW, to Sir Bob, when comparing the .375 carts: The only homologation of the .375 Weatherby that I am aware of is by CIP and the Pmax there is 4400 bar = 63,800 psi. .375 H&H is 4300 bar = 62,350 psi, by CIP Pmax. The SAAMI homologation for the .375 H&H: Pmax = 62,000 psi (and the older spec was 53,000 CUP)
That brings us back to the .458 WinMag versus .458 Lott homologations. SAAMI .458 WinMag: 53,000 CUP and later refined to 60,000 psi SAAMI .458 Lott: 62,500 psi, necessarily pumped up to allow it to compete with the .458 WinMag.
CIP Pmax for both .458 WinMag and .458 Lott is 4300 bar = 62,350 psi, and that makes good sense. The CIP .458 Lott chamber eventually got revised to match the SAAMI .458 Lott's short and tight throat, nonsensical as that is.
African Dangerous Game Cartridges by Pierre van der Walt is a fun book. It has listings of "Relative Capacity" in tables starting each chapter on a particular cartridge. Good comparison tool for gross case capacity in grains of water.
.577/450 Martini-Henry (solid/drawn brass case version introduced 1875, UK): 120.0 gr
.45-70 Government (introduced 1872, USA): 73.6 gr
.450 Nitro Express 3-1/4" Rigby (introduced 1898, UK): 136.0 gr
In perusing Pierre van der Walt's book I noted a highlighted passage. He says John Rigby brought out the .45-2.4"-Match cartridge in 1870. Done on a shortened .45 BPE 3-1/4", might have been with coiled brass case ? Something to look into ... Who did the .45-90-2.4" with drawn brass case first ? John Rigby or Sharps ?
Update on the progress of the Ruger Hawkeye African 458 WM, fired today with CEB BBW #13 450 grain monolithic solids.
The 2 powders used in today’s session were AA-2230 and Varget, because they had shown the greatest likelihood of reaching the target MV of 2300-2350 fps in the 23” barrel. All firing was from the bench, seated at 25 yds with rear peep sight. I continue to be pleasantly surprised at the accuracy of this barrel with the Ruger #1 barrel. Thanks to Sir Ron for the Varget suggestion - it works.
With Varget, using same bullet and MV measured at same distance 76.0 grains (MV = 2254 fps), 78.0 grains (MV = 2297 fps), 80.0 grains (MV = 2348 fps). I’ll probably use the AA-2230 load as it requires minimal compression to load 80 grains.
Small modification to the magazine box opening in the stock was the placement of a steel shim in front of the mag box backed by an aluminum spacer to prevent any movement of the box with recoil. Feeding is flawlessly smooth now, with a 375 H&H follower which locates the bullets very close to the centerline of the magazine.
This is the 25 yd target showing the result of CEB BBW #13 450 grain bullet 2 shots with AA-2230 80.0 grains and 2 shots each with Varget 76.0 & 80.0 grains. 6 shots total with the Hawkeye African 458 WM.
Who did the .45-90-2.4" with drawn brass case first ? "
I dunno , but glad they did! It is very effective across a broad range of bullet weights and animals.
Yes, the .45-90 WCF used light bullets and slow twist. Referring to the books, the 2.4" case was first produced by WRA Co. in 1884. Offered in the M1885 High Wall single shot and then the M1886 lever action. Cartridge was cataloged until 1913. Jacketed bullets became available in 1892, in addition to the usual grease-grooved cast lead. In 1895 both smokeless and BP loads were offered. In 1903 Winchester High Velocity (WHV) in soft point, then in 1905 the Full Metal Patch (FMJ) arrived. 300-grain FN FMJ !!! Great Britain used the M1886 with .45-90 WHV rounds to shoot down German observation balloons in WWI, according to Giles & Shuey. Heh-heh-heh.
Sharps Company, from Frank Sellers: ".45 CALIBRE 2.4-INCH STRAIGHT While this cartridge is commonly called the '.45/90' by today's collectors, the Sharps Company never loaded it with less than 100 grains of powder. It was used exclusively as a target load in the Model 1874, Model 1877, and Model 1878 Long-Range rifles. The cartridge was introduced on June 8, 1877. The common load was in this was .45/100/550 paper patch."
Sharps had introduced the ".45 CALIBRE 2.6-INCH STRAIGHT" in November of 1876. It used the same load, .45/100/550 paper patch. Replaced by the 2.4" loaded with more of the bullet hanging out in the bore. Throat did not matter since the paper-patched bullet was patched to bore diameter and was smacked on the bottom by BP to obturate the rifling grooves. IIRC, the old Sharps just had a 5-degree or 7-degree angle at the end of chamber neck, leading into the rifling. Just a wide-based leade going abruptly into the rifling, sort of like the cone on the front end of a shotgun chamber. Heh-heh-heh.
OK, if John Rigby was doing a .45-2.4" in 1870, as van der Walt says, it must have been a coiled brass and paper case. Must have been one of those early experiments with that new-fangled central fire instead of rim fire. I have found citations indicating that circa 1880 John Rigby was using both .45-2.4" and .45-2.6" drawn brass cases for his "Match" cartridges. Must have been trying to keep up with the .461 Gibbs No. 1 and .461 Gibbs No. 2. Keeping up with the Gibbses, heh-heh-heh.
The .45-2.4" has a rich history. It obsoleted the .45-2.6" Sharps Straight just like the .458 WM+ obsoletes the SAAMI .458 Lott. Heh-heh-heh.
Update on the progress of the Ruger Hawkeye African 458 WM, fired today with CEB BBW #13 450 grain monolithic solids.
The 2 powders used in today’s session were AA-2230 and Varget, because they had shown the greatest likelihood of reaching the target MV of 2300-2350 fps in the 23” barrel. All firing was from the bench, seated at 25 yds with rear peep sight. I continue to be pleasantly surprised at the accuracy of this barrel with the Ruger #1 barrel. Thanks to Sir Ron for the Varget suggestion - it works.
With Varget, using same bullet and MV measured at same distance 76.0 grains (MV = 2254 fps), 78.0 grains (MV = 2297 fps), 80.0 grains (MV = 2348 fps). I’ll probably use the AA-2230 load as it requires minimal compression to load 80 grains ...
This is the 25 yd target showing the result of CEB BBW #13 450 grain bullet 2 shots with AA-2230 80.0 grains and 2 shots each with Varget 76.0 & 80.0 grains. 6 shots total with the Hawkeye African 458 WM.
Excellent. More load data for the Square Table Manual. No doubt it will have to be self-published. Heh-heh-heh.
Jolly good show old man, Sir Khulu. Take notes and photos on the entrance and exit holes from those CEB FNs passing through the elephant. Another chapter for the Square Table book.
The FN M98 .458 WinMag is feeding well after the Gunsmith worked his magic. Waiting for finish work.
Jolly good show old man, Sir Khulu. Take notes and photos on the entrance and exit holes from those CEB FNs passing through the elephant. Another chapter for the square table book.
The FN M98 .458 WinMag is feeding well after the Gunsmith worked his magic.
How much AA2230 behind the CEB BBW #13 in am Interarm MarkX?
got back from Africa 2 weeks ago so I have to get in gear and post a full report but need to figure out how to post pictures as I am a dork when it comes to doing things on the computer. but here is how the cape buff hunt went with my 458 plus P. 404 gr shock Hammer bullet 80 gr AA2230 for 2460 fps. came across the buff standing looking at me with death on his face at about 20 yards PH said shoot him, put a bullet in the left shoulder that went thru the heart we found out later and he spun and ran about 50 feet and went down, got behind him and put the insurance shot between the shoulders and done. neither bullet was recovered. this was a plains game hunt with a cow buff on the plate for 3000 but the Safari owner said if we could come up with an old bull broken horn or not wide I could take him for 5000 instead of the normal 8500 he quoted months ago. I did not tape him but I would say he was about 38 inches but the boss was a good 14 plus inches, wide huge bull. we guessed his weight at about 17-1800 pounds and he was very old probably his last year, a great animal. also took Sable, Kudu, Zebra, and 2 huge warthogs was a great trip to the East Cape
Jolly good show old man, Sir Khulu. Take notes and photos on the entrance and exit holes from those CEB FNs passing through the elephant. Another chapter for the square table book.
The FN M98 .458 WinMag is feeding well after the Gunsmith worked his magic.
How much AA2230 behind the CEB BBW #13 in am Interarm MarkX?
Sir John, I use 78.0 grains with the 450-gr CEB FN loaded to COL of 3.360" in 2.490" Hornady brass, F215 primer. 5-yard chrono was 2343 fps for 5-shot average with st.dev. = 4 fps for those 5 shots, 12 fps ES. That was in a 24-7/8" barrel at 55*F, Chimera WinCZeckster. Corrected to MV = 2365 fps for G1 BC = 0.190. Subtract only 15 fps per inch of barrel shortening in the 22" to 25" range. But of course, different strokes for different rifles, YMMV.
got back from Africa 2 weeks ago so I have to get in gear and post a full report but need to figure out how to post pictures as I am a dork when it comes to doing things on the computer. but here is how the cape buff hunt went with my 458 plus P. 404 gr shock Hammer bullet 80 gr AA2230 for 2460 fps. came across the buff standing looking at me with death on his face at about 20 yards PH said shoot him, put a bullet in the left shoulder that went thru the heart we found out later and he spun and ran about 50 feet and went down, got behind him and put the insurance shot between the shoulders and done. neither bullet was recovered. this was a plains game hunt with a cow buff on the plate for 3000 but the Safari owner said if we could come up with an old bull broken horn or not wide I could take him for 5000 instead of the normal 8500 he quoted months ago. I did not tape him but I would say he was about 38 inches but the boss was a good 14 plus inches, wide huge bull. we guessed his weight at about 17-1800 pounds and he was very old probably his last year, a great animal. also took Sable, Kudu, Zebra, and 2 huge warthogs was a great trip to the East Cape
Sir James, Send me a PM and I would love to post your pictures in the gallery here. I have been posting from my phone today, on the road visiting a friend in ICU. He is not out of the woods yet so I will be driving 200+ miles again tomorrow, or later today, to spell his wife. I'll be on the 'puter again after that trip.
I have been posting from my phone today, on the road visiting a friend in ICU. He is not out of the woods yet so I will be driving 200+ miles again tomorrow, or later today, to spell his wife. I'll be on the 'puter again after that trip.
Beautiful trophies ! Really nice Buff ! Sounds like a 400 ish grain mono metal bullet at 2400+ fps works AWESOME ! Especially considering no bullets were recovered ! What optic is on your CZ ?
that is a leupold VX Patrol 1.5-4 with a variable size red dot called Firedot it worked great for an low priced scope and has been holding up to the recoil of up to 2400 FPS using 450 grain bullets
that is a leupold VX Patrol 1.5-4 with a variable size red dot called Firedot it worked great for an low priced scope and has been holding up to the recoil of up to 2400 FPS using 450 grain bullets
Thank you. I'll look for one. For years I had a VX 2, 1-4 x20 on my Spruce King. Killed Tons of animals with it. But , the non illuminated reticle screwed me a few times. It finally died and I decided all my scopes would be I r from then on.
I am posting this over at the Hammer Bullets forum to let them know. It is on "The .45-90 a Tale of Two Rifles" thread, hence the kissing up to the .45-90 WCF:
Here is the second known cape buffalo taken with the 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer. It happened in Late April 2023 in RSA. Sir James did it, aka Hydehunter, with a CZ 550 Magnum .458 WinMag:
"...here is how the cape buff hunt went with my 458 plus P. 404 gr shock Hammer bullet 80 gr AA2230 for 2460 fps. came across the buff standing looking at me with death on his face at about 20 yards PH said shoot him, put a bullet in the left shoulder that went thru the heart we found out later and he spun and ran about 50 feet and went down, got behind him and put the insurance shot between the shoulders and done. neither bullet was recovered."
Sir James loads the 404-gr long and keeps velocity down and accuracy good in his long magazine box. At a COL of 3.380" we easily get +2500 fps in 24" barrels with 80 grains of AA-2230 in Hornady/Winchester/Remington/Federal brass cases. That is crimped on the second PDR trough of the 5 troughs (grooves) and six peaks (bands) in the PDR sinusoidal wave of the 404-grainer. The .45-90 can be loaded crimped on the third trough for a COL of 3.380" also. You can even go one more and load to COL of 3.480" with crimp on the fourth trough, if the throat of your .45-90 allows it. To leave two or more peaks (bands) inside the case, for bullet alignment/concentricity/accuracy/sufficient tension, you crimp at the middle of the fourth band for maximum COL With 2.4" case in .45-90, useful COLs: 3.180", 3.280", 3.380", 3.480" With 2.5" case in .458 WM, useful COLs: 3.280", 3.380", 3.480", 3.580"
If your throat is like on the .458 WinMag, The longer COL .45-90 WCF will beat a shorter COL .458 WinMag. Almost like a .458 WinMag loaded to the same COL as a SAAMI .458 Lott will beat the .458 Lott. This is possible with the 404-gr Shock Hammer and the SAAMI .458 Lott both loaded to 3.580" in a 3.6" mag box. Dang, that 404-gr Shock hammer is the perfect bullet.
Two shots, two dead cape buffalo bulls, two different hunters getting very similar results on two different safaris. Sir Jerry and Sir James, asante sana-sana.
Buddy is heading home today, thank GOD ! I made four roadtrips to the ICU lately, stopped by Knob Creek, right on the way yesterday. Found two more interesting Federal factory loads to check out for posterity. Shown below are the previous two chronicled here, and two new ones. 500-grain HYDRO advertised at 2050 fps, gave 2062 fps MV in 24" M70 Supergrade. 500-grain "Fusion Safari" advertised at 2090 fps gave 2192 fps MV in same rifle, same day !!!
Next two for checkin'on: 400-grain Trophy Bonded advertised at 2250 fps ... 500-grain Barnes Banded Solid advertised at 2050 fps ... Will do in same rifle, 24" M70 Cabela's Commemorative.
After ammo purchase I stopped in restroom before hitting the road again. Delightful urinal sticker, and lots of other clippings plastered on the wall above the urinals:
I had a chance to get to the range to sight in the Ruger Hawkeye 458 WM 2 days ago. Set up the 35P and shot through the screens. MV with the 450 grain CEB BBW#13 loaded with AA-2230 corrected is 2400 FPS. The rifle is ready and has turned me into a believer in the 458 WM chambered in the right rifle. No question this is an elephant DGR. It’s a true DG cartridge, as Winchester should have loaded it and fit it into a proper CRF platform. Somewhat belatedly, the Ruger Hawkeye with the No. 1 barrel has proven to be a proper system.
The Win M-70 460 G&A has proven a bit of a challenge. MV 2350 FPS with a 500 grain bullet has been easily achieved but setting up the sights with a stock designed for scopes has been a bit of a challenge, because the minimal drop at heel is not conducive to iron sights. I’ve now installed a Holosun 530G mounted on a factory QD base in a modified steel Weaver pattern scope base. It aligns well with the stock’s straight design. Next week it should be sighted in and finally ready.
A backup NECG peep will require some further modification but should be ready, in the unlikely event of optics failure.
Sir Ron, Your Post's never seem to get old. Besides the fact they are Factual and informative but are also amusing! Glad to hear your friend is doing better as we at the square Table continue to send Prayers! Long live the .458 WM
I had a chance to get to the range to sight in the Ruger Hawkeye 458 WM 2 days ago. Set up the 35P and shot through the screens. MV with the 450 grain CEB BBW#13 loaded with AA-2230 corrected is 2400 FPS. The rifle is ready and has turned me into a believer in the 458 WM chambered in the right rifle. No question this is an elephant DGR. It’s a true DG cartridge, as Winchester should have loaded it and fit it into a proper CRF platform. Somewhat belatedly, the Ruger Hawkeye with the No. 1 barrel has proven to be a proper system.
The Win M-70 460 G&A has proven a bit of a challenge. MV 2350 FPS with a 500 grain bullet has been easily achieved but setting up the sights with a stock designed for scopes has been a bit of a challenge, because the minimal drop at heel is not conducive to iron sights. I’ve now installed a Holosun 530G mounted on a factory QD base in a modified steel Weaver pattern scope base. It aligns well with the stock’s straight design. Next week it should be sighted in and finally ready.
A backup NECG peep will require some further modification but should be ready, in the unlikely event of optics failure.
Outstanding. The 450-grain CEB at 2300 to 2400 fps will pass through an elephant on any side-on body or any angle of head shot. I am just curious if you could reach the brain of an elephant with a Texas Heart Shot ?
Sir Tony, Asante sana-sana for the flowers, and the old yellow and red box loads you sent for sampling. Here is some more factory load dissections. Your 1957 Winchester 500-gr FMJ loads were still up to snuff 64 years after they left the factory. Recall that they used 67.0 grains of a short-grained extruded powder. Current propellants:
little changed from 1957, see below.
Yesterday I got to the range one hour before closing and set chronograph at 5 yards and targets at 50 yards. Had to bore sight the little 2.5x20mm Leupold in QRW rings on a Near Mfg. Picatinny with 25-MOA tilt. I swift-kicked my own arse for wasting 2 shots into the dirt and finally getting onto paper with the third shot. It shot high with the 25 MOA tilt. Plenty of adjustment in the little scope though. I got off 20 shots by closing time. Wind was a bit gusty, 11 mph or more. Throwing out the first two shots into the dirt, I got an average for 8 hots with the "400"-gr TB Bear Claw, closer to a 390-grainer !
Interesting that with the 400-grainer at 2345 fps MV landing about 1.4" high at 50 yards, the scope was not changed/adjusted and the 500-grainer at 2102 fps was landing about an inch higher than that at 50 yards. Barrel time and recoil effects.
Using the 2.5X scope at 1000 yards: Holdover on the billboard-sized target with standard duplex reticle, and 25-MOA rail. Aiming above the 3-feet-square bull. Easier than with barrel sights on 1-power. Heh-heh-heh. Rifle likes brass fouling:
Hood is still tight on the front sight ramp. I am not messing with it until it flies away spontaneously. Recoil is light with a 10-pound rifle, with a 3-pound trigger. Heh-heh-heh.
Got to the range this morning to decide which sights to use and zero the rifle. It continues to impress with the consistent accuracy delivered with the CEB BBW #13 450 grain FP monolithic Solid. I decided to install one of my old tried and true Leupold 1-4x25 scopes on factory Ruger rings. This scope had been on one of the 404-375 Hawkeyes in the past.
Settled on the scope because the alignment of the comb and cheek weld are ideal. At 1x there’s a very adequate FOV, though scopes are not my favorite solution for elephants in a herd. It’ll work though. BTW, the loads in the cut-off Lott cases have identical POI as the 458 WM cases.
Here’s the 1st and final target with this load and scope from the bench at 25 yds at 4x:
Next time I’ll fire it at 50 yds and never return to the bench!
Still working out the sights for the Win M-70 G&A. Today I settled on a Holosun 530C mounted on the factory QD mount on a modified Warne steel base on the front receiver ring. The shots with different sights as I adjusted them are visible on the left hand target in the lower photo.
I’ll finalize the sight setting next week. BTW the 460 now has 12 ounces of lead in the buttstock - quite an improvement in recoil speed!
Next week they’ll both be ready for elephants. I received an order of Berry’s 350 grain SOCOM 0.458” diameter bullets today which will constitute the bulk of the practice loads @ around 1500-1600 fps with H-4895, from both rifles. Preparation for the hunt, with 5-10 full power loads each session.
Excellent work Sir Khulu. Any elephant work with a .458 is going to be interesting. Maybe I will get to do that one day, but I have a grudge to settle with a Kodiak first. Sir Tony and Sir Bob, asante sana-sana. Sir Bob sent this from his club house, instructive for those who think a 24" barrel is cumbersome on a .458:
Here is my latest 24" barrel:
8.0 lbs as shown without scope or ammo, 24" barrel Pac-Nor No. 5 Super Match Stainless, 1:10" twist, 8 grooves, .458"/.450". This the next candidate for the 2024 Creedmost Match. It will allow 2 lbs of slip-on LOP adjuster, scope and rings. Weaver steel cross-slot bases (S46 and S45), known to work well on another FN M98, no shim required:
If Near Mfg. makes a rail for FN M98, I will switch scope bases. There is weight-limit room to play with. Trigger is a Timney adjusted to 3-1/4 lbs, legal !
I am going to shoot it before the Cerakote, which hopefully won't add too much weight. Stock is B&C Medalist, 2.0 lbs. Proper wood to cover the drop belly mag would be too heavy for this one.
It is a handy size: terminal 5/8" of barrel is threaded 5/8"-24 tpi and OD is 0.750", a scant bit larger than the 0.720" barrel diameter where the threading ends. The Super Grade muzzle diameter on the M70 24-incher is 0.730". No. 5 sporter is a happy contour for a .458 whether from McGowen, Douglas, Pac-Nor, or Shilen, all pretty close to the Winchester contour.
Excellent work Sir Khulu. Any elephant work with a .458 is going to be interesting. Maybe I will get to do that one day, but I have a grudge to settle with a Kodiak first. Sir Tony and Sir Bob, asante sana-sana. Sir Bob sent this from his club house, instructive for those who think a 24" barrel is cumbersome on a .458:
Here is my latest 24" barrel:
8.0 lbs as shown without scope or ammo, 24" barrel Pac-Nor No. 5 Super Match Stainless, 1:10" twist, 8 grooves, .458"/.450". This the next candidate for the 2024 Creedmost Match. It will allow 2 lbs of slip-on LOP adjuster, scope and rings. Weaver steel cross-slot bases (S46 and S45), known to work well on another FN M98, no shim required:
If Near Mfg. makes a rail for FN M98, I will switch scope bases. There is weight-limit room to play with. Trigger is a Timney adjusted to 3-1/4 lbs, legal !
I am going to shoot it before the Cerakote, which hopefully won't add too much weight. Stock is B&C Medalist, 2.0 lbs. Proper wood to cover the drop belly mag would be too heavy for this one.
Left side, cocked and not loaded:
Looks nice Sir Ron ! And here I was just thinking about a 16" barreled 458. It's all wishful thinking at this point as I'm neck deep in more home building projects for this summer. And I need to get in this winters firewood. . It would be very nice if I could be wrapped up by moose season.
Understand your joust with a Kodiak. Mine lasted 4 trips before one fell to a Hawkeye Alaskan - all of 20” bbl - then still in 375 Ruger. A single Barnes 300 grain TSX at 18 yds. Angling left to right shot produced a broken on shoulder, hole through the heart and bullet recovered from the far last rib just under the hide. He lasted all of 3-5 seconds.
One of the main reasons I rebored the Alaskan Hawkeye to 0.423” - the 404-375 Ruger - was a desire to have another go at another brown bear. Got busy with Africa - used the Hawkeye African then as a 404-375 Ruger on a Cape buff - and now I realize that going after another brown bear will never happen. Worthy goal though, as I see brown bears as the Cape buffalo of the Far North. Doesn’t seem you can carry too much gun when you’re up close.
However, a proper 458 WM DGR certainly qualifies as “enough gun.”
Sir Spruce, Just joking. Those 16" barrels versus 24" do have their charm. Subsonic suppressed with heaviest of bullets being one good reason. I will be comparing a 16.9" .458 B&M+ to a 24" .458 WM+, same net case capacity, same powder charge and bullet, both with 1:10" twist Pac-Nor barrels. Finally getting around to it, a potential Creedmost Match bullet:
Another Lehigh, not to mention offerings from CEB and Hammer Bullets for Creedmost:
Constructing a bill board target at 1000 yards is in the works.
That should be a very interesting experiment. I've never taken the time to zero in on accuracy with Spruce King. I had an Interarms , Whitworth Express that a shot a 5 shot , 1 5/8" group at a measured 100 yards . Using iirc, 510 gr Winchester soft nose. And this is the kicker. Factory Express sights. Shot from a bench , using a milk crate and a boat cushion for a rest.
I'm certain that with a scope I could have taken at least 1" off that group size.
A friend of the Family was over the other day and we got talking Hunting as we usually do and he asked "me what Rifle in the great .458 Win. Mag would be the preferred choice to buy as the most comfortable to shoot"? Naturally as the discussion furthered we also determined that he would want great accuracy and a very nice looking Rifle. Cost really isn't an issue as he's willing to step up. I have a few thoughts in mind but I told him I would ask here and really get some valuable opinions from experienced Shooters. I explained to him my opinion on beauty being in the eye of the holder/owner as we all have our own opinion's on that. I would appreciate any and all comments. Thanks, HS 58
There was a guy who posted on AccurateReloading as Ozhunter who posted a few pics of what I thought was the most proper 458WM I had ever seen. Perhaps a search would reveal the pic. It was on a 98.
I am not anywhere as experienced with the 458 WM as a lot here, but "comfortable to shoot" to me means a well fitting rifle, with some weight to absorb recoil. I went with a CRF Winchester model 70. As for a "nice looking rifle", the Ruger number 1 is hard to beat. That is next on my wish list. The traditional Mauser style bolt guns, are what I think of in a 458 WM. In my opinion the Safari Express model 70 in Super Grade, is about as beautiful and functional as it gets. My dream 458 WM would be a Mannlicher/Stutzen stocked Model 70 with a 20" barrel, in French Walnut.
I just looked, and Winchester doesn't show the Super Grade chambered in 458 WinMag now. I guess that might be a limited production gun.
A friend of the Family was over the other day and we got talking Hunting as we usually do and he asked "me what Rifle in the great .458 Win. Mag would be the preferred choice to buy as the most comfortable to shoot"? Naturally as the discussion furthered we also determined that he would want great accuracy and a very nice looking Rifle. Cost really isn't an issue as he's willing to step up. I have a few thoughts in mind but I told him I would ask here and really get some valuable opinions from experienced Shooters. I explained to him my opinion on beauty being in the eye of the holder/owner as we all have our own opinion's on that. I would appreciate any and all comments. Thanks, HS 58
Since Winchester started it all, I'd suggest an M70 from their custom shop.
I tried a new Winchester Safari in 375 a client hunter had left my PH.The thing was super accurate and without the recoil of a 458.The trigger was nice too.
A friend of the Family was over the other day and we got talking Hunting as we usually do and he asked "me what Rifle in the great .458 Win. Mag would be the preferred choice to buy as the most comfortable to shoot"? Naturally as the discussion furthered we also determined that he would want great accuracy and a very nice looking Rifle. Cost really isn't an issue as he's willing to step up. I have a few thoughts in mind but I told him I would ask here and really get some valuable opinions from experienced Shooters. I explained to him my opinion on beauty being in the eye of the holder/owner as we all have our own opinion's on that. I would appreciate any and all comments. Thanks, HS 58
Since Winchester started it all, I'd suggest an M70 from their custom shop.
Beauty is more than just form in a firearm, same as with many things. Function is beauty too. Any .458 Winchester Magnum that is a proper shooter is a thing of beauty. Some even look good. Good to add some images here, any of these would do:
Mauser M98s have a special beauty with CRF&E, especially this one by Joe Smithson:
It is set up for a red dot sight on the barrel too, on the rear barrel sight base.
If this rifle weighs 9 pounds as shown, unloaded, with barrel sights only, you would have to add a strap-on comb to use a scope in the Creedmost Match, might be tough to make weight with a scope and Smithson scope mounts. Might have to use some Soule sights and back position with that one.
Wouldn't it be nice if Lipsey's asked for a run of .458 WM Hawkeye Africans ?
While I am fantasizing about a new "offering":
That would be ideal when loaded for bear. The .458 Winchester Magnum is first choice for Alaskan Research Biologists. A favorite illustration from a serious publication, not a Far Side cartoon:
For the Alaskan bears, however, I would favor the SS synthetic stock version configured as the one below, with 20” heavier contour barrel to weigh 9 lbs loaded
I am a fan of that rifle combination. I often ponder upon a re-barrel of a Mark II or Hawkeye. I think the 416 Ruger barrel contour might work with a 20 or 21" barrel.
That seems like a great weather resistant and handy rifle.
I am a fan of that rifle combination. I often ponder upon a re-barrel of a Mark II or Hawkeye. I think the 416 Ruger barrel contour might work with a 20 or 21" barrel.
That seems like a great weather resistant and handy rifle.
Used that Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan on a brown bear in Alaska. Very good rifle in that weather. Back then it was a 375 Ruger but now it’s a 404-375 Ruger. At 20” it’s very handy and now even more decisive.
I’m considering installing the 23” Hawkeye African barrel which came off the now 458 WM Hawkeye African, on the stainless Alaskan action. About 75 fps more MV with any of the 400 grain bullets used on brown bears. The expanded bullet in the photo is a Barnes 300 gain TSX extracted from the offside hide of an 8’ 8” square brown. Not huge but respectable.
Rebarreling that action to 458 WM would work quite well.
I think you should buy a Mauser 98 Diplomat in 450 Rigby (500g solid 2500 ft/s 6941 ft/lbs).
-Joe
Joe, If you want want a seat at the Square Table (Maybe Sir Spook ?), you are going to have to make better suggestions than that ! What could a .450 Rigby do that a .458 WM+ cannot ? Besides, I am heavily biased towards the .450 Dakota that came before the me-too .450 Rigby upstart. She is a safe queen:
If only it would appreciate like one of these did ...
From 310 bucks to 8000 bucks over a mere 60 years:
For the Alaskan bears, however, I would favor the SS synthetic stock version configured as the one below, with 20” heavier contour barrel to weigh 9 lbs loaded
Sir Khulu and Sir Larry, The M77 Mark II and Hawkeye seem to be faultless for conversion to .458 WinMag. B&C recently started offering a Medalist to fit the Hawkeye. My .400 Whelen is shown here in one of those, a work in progress. It has a Shilen No. 5 sporter contour barrel of 23.6" length. It weighs 7#14 oz. The stock weighs only 1#14 ounces, amazingly. Bored to .458, the rifle would be about 7.75 lbs. Easy to make Creedmost Match weight even with ammo, iron sights, and scope onboard:
Here is that Mark II .458 WM with Shilen 5-1/2 Sporter Contour at full 25" barrel length:
Mark II and Hawkeye seem to have the same magazine dimensions, perfect for feeding .458 WM. They will even eject single-loaded rounds up to 3.54" COL if not fired, topping off a mag box full of solids with a 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.480" COL is cool.
Mark II and Hawkeye seem to have the same magazine dimensions, perfect for feeding .458 WM. They will even eject single-loaded rounds up to 3.54" COL if not fired, topping off a mag box full of solids with a 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.480" COL is cool.
Sir Ron, I agree on the B&C stocks for the Rugers. I have them on a few Mark II / Hawkeye rifles. I would probably have them on more, specifically the 20" 375 & 416 Rugers. But, they were already bedded in H-S Precision stock by the time the B&C stocks were available. Prior to the changes at McMillan, they were my most used.
On my scales: 416 Ruger Alaskan = 8lbs 1 ounces in a bedded H-S Precision. If I recall correctly the rubber Hogue was 1 or 2 ounces more.
30-06, Ruger Guide Gun, with muzzle brake threads cut off, bedded in a B&C stock = 7lbs 13.2 ounces I believe this is the same barrel contour as the 375 Rugers. I think the 416 is fatter past the fore end.
The Mark II's & Hawkeye's, 300 Winchester through the 416 Ruger have fit the same. I think B&C gets confused on the 375 & 416's fitting. The confusion seems to be with the Ruger Safari Magnum.
Sir Larry, I was happily surprised to find the B&C weighed so light on a Ruger Hawkeye. But it was same weight as the slim walnut stock that came on a factory Hawkeye .35 Whelen, after the spritely walnut was glass bedded on a fatter .400 Whelen barrel: 1#14oz The B&C stock had a wide barrel channel that dropped in the No. 5 Shilen sporter too. No sanding required.
Going by muzzle diameters and comparing to Pac-Nor sporter contours as a close match:
.416 Ruger M77 Hawkeye Alaskan, 20" muzzle diameter = 0.755", about like a Pac-Nor No. 5, barreled action wt. = 5.5 lbs. .375 Ruger M77 Hawkeye Alaskan, 20" muzzle diameter = 0.675", about like a Pac-Nor No. 3, barreled action wt. = 5.75 lbs. .375 Ruger M77 Hawkeye African, 23" muzzle diameter = 0.675", about like a Pac-Nor No. 4, barreled action wt. = 6.0 lbs.
Stock weights I have noted on Hawkeyes and Mark II M77 Rugers:
Rebore a .416 Ruger Alaskan stainless 20" to .458 caliber and you will lighten it by 0.17 pound = 2.72 ounces. Put it in an unadulterated canoe paddle stock and it will be 6.83 lbs = 6 lbs 13.28 oz, complete with open sights, barrel-band sling stud and integral scope bases.
That would be an easy .458/.416 Ruger. Use a Pac-Nor No. 5 sporter cut to 20" and chamber it for .458 WinMag for same liveliness. Hubba hubba.
It seems the M77 Hawkeye with a 24" Pac-Nor No. 5 sporter chambered for .458 WinMag might be a great Creedmost Match rifle. Lengthening barrel from 20" to 24" adds about 3.2 oz, and using the B&C Medalist stock would add 6 ounces more than the canoe paddle. Approximate weight becomes 7 pounds and 6.48 ounces, less than 7.5 lbs. That leaves 2.5 pounds of add-ons to make 10# business weight.
Sir Ron, Thank you for the simplifying the details on barrel contours.
Perhaps, a PacNor #5 or a duplicate of the 416 Ruger Alaskan is what I am looking for. I am thinking 21" length. Splitting the difference on the indecision of 20 or 22.
For conversational purposes: I will dig out an early 375 Ruger African, without sling stud barrel band, presently in a B&C and weigh it within the next couple of days.
You can even calculate weights with fluting. No need to go larger and flute, IMHO, just use a No. 5 Sporter and any length from 16" to 26": muzzle diameter from 0.800" to 0.700" respectively, weights 2.65 lbs to 3.48 lbs respectively, for a .458-cal Pac-Nor with 1.200" cylinder shank that is 3" long. Yep, split the difference for 0.750" muzzle diameter at 21" length, and about 3-lbs-2-oz of barrel. Handy. Phil Shoemaker's Ol'Ugly has a 21" barrel.
Originally Posted by ldmay375
... I will dig out an early 375 Ruger African, without sling stud barrel band, presently in a B&C and weigh it within the next couple of days.
That is the same early Hawkeye I have. Barreled action weight should be 6.0 lbs. Subtract that from rifle weight in stock and you get B&C stock weight. My bare, unloaded rifle with 23" barrel in slim walnut stock weighs 7.75 lbs. Does your early .375 Ruger rifle in B&C stock weigh 7 pounds and 14 ounces ? Did the B&C stock have a roomy "magnum" barrel channel ? I like that. I would rather fill a barrel channel with epoxy than have to sand and scrape to get a barrel to fit.
Just weighed the early 375 Ruger Hawkeye 23" in the unbedded B&C: 7# 13 oz even, on my scales
The stock does have the roomy magnum barrel channel. I consider the shank / barrel channel fit just right, has some room for barrel bedding. But not excess, as if a meth-headed beaver carved on it.
One old school, also without barrel band sling stud, 416 Ruger Alaskan in a bedded 13-1/4" LOP H-S Precision weighs: 8# 1.1 oz
A 375 Ruger Alaskan, with barrel band sling stud, in a bedded H-S Precision: 8# 0.9 oz
Asante sana-sana Sir Larry, Your weight for rifle is within 1 ounce of what I got here. 200 lbs at the North Pole becomes 198 lbs at the equator, about a 1% error, so our difference would be on the order of a quarter percent based on our local gravitational constants corrected for latitude and centrifugal force effects of Earth's rotation. Well under a half-ounce by geographic correction.
Even if our 1-ounce difference is in the wrong direction, This confirms that the B&C Hawkeye stock is indeed light, having a slim profile and big barrel channel making it very user friendly. My 1#14-oz versus your 1#13-oz could be instrumental and eyeball related, or amount of paint on stock, etc. Close enough for horse shoes and hand grenades to 1#13.5-oz, or 1.84375 pounds on average.
With the strength of the B&C Medalist (recently made available) added to the many strengths of the Ruger M77 Hawkeye, not the least of which is the integral scope base, IMHO the top .458 WinMag of the current era would have to be a stainless Hawkeye.
Now what is the ultimate scope to go on that ultimate .458 WinMag ? That is a tougher nut to crack due to the human factors. Different buttstrokes and eyebrow strokes for different folks.
Agree, our weight results are definitely close enough. I also agree that a stainless Mark II / Hawkeye configuration in synthetic stock is about as good as it gets for a rugged, weather resistant, minimal maintenance rifle.
One thing that I noted when handling 23" barrel in the B&C, I have to bare down pretty hard on the stock for the iron sights. Not the case with the 20" versions in a B&C nor in the H-S Precision. May be unique to me.
Scope wise, since this would not be intended for The Long Range match, I have several on hand choices. All in the lower powered variables. 1.1-4x24's, 1-5x24, 1-6x24, and 1-8x24. The 1.1-4 & 1-5 are more suitable for my purposes.
Scope selection is an interesting question. Due to available scopes on hand and intended use for the 458 WM Hawkeye I settled on a Leupold 1-4x25 mm mounted on vertically split lever QD Warne steel rings.
Initially mounted it on Ruger lever QD rings but the front ring lever actually loosened under recoil. We’ll see how this arrangement holds at the next range session.
I like the straight 30mm tube 1-4,5,6,8. They usually give me adequate magnification and low light use for the terrain and distances that I moose hunt. Though I have used 1.5-6x42 on a 416. It presently have a 1-6.3x24 on it, which will probably be a permanent fixture. Currently I have a 20" 375 Ruger with a straight tube 1-8x24 and a 23.5" with a 1.5-8x42.
Yep, the scope choices are a mud pit of their own. I think my 458 Winchester will probably get 30mm tubed 1.1-4x24's.
Edit: I experienced one 300 Winchester Hawkeye rifle that had issues with the front ring mounting. It appeared either the top rib and/or recessed depths were out of tolerance. I tried different sets of 2 different brands of quick detachable and none would securely tighten on the front ring. Deceivingly close, but not secure. The standard as issued Ruger rings worked without issue.
Occasionally the Ruger ring main mounting bolt may need some clean-up to be secure, torqued properly. Have seen it supposedly happen on the internet, but never to me. I suppose "it happens" as Forrest Gump would say.
Here is an idea for a little more versatility of scope, compared to the 2.5x20mm Leupold 6.5-ouncer which is always a good choice: The Leupold FX-Freedom 1.5-4x20 mm with Pig-Plex or MOA-Ring reticle. It only weighs 9.6 ounces. If the Creedmoor 1874 shooters could do it with iron sights of 1X surely the Creedmost 2024 shooter can make do with 4X for a 3-square-feet bullseye at 1000 yards. Hard to find 5" of eye relief as well as the requisite durability. Learn to tolerate tunnel vision parallax reduction.
I am a fan of that rifle combination. I often ponder upon a re-barrel of a Mark II or Hawkeye. I think the 416 Ruger barrel contour might work with a 20 or 21" barrel.
That seems like a great weather resistant and handy rifle.
The Hawkeye Alaskan contour at 20” would work in 458. My current Alaskan was rebored from 375 to 404 (0.423” groove diam). There’s sufficient wall thickness left out to the muzzle for a 458, but not for a threaded sight mounting, as I recently discovered. Easily solved problem by either using a rear NECG receiver mounted Ruger peep sight or a silver soldered RS base with a blade insert on the barrel.
For the hardcore Hawkeye fans, the Ruger factory RS is usable with a simple tapped and threaded steel mounting block. Will try that combination later next week on the 460 G&A -secured with Loctite Black Max 480- and will post some pics, if it survives under recoil.
Sir Khulu, The VX-Freedom 1.5-4x20mm Pig-Plex and MOA-Ring from Leupold are a new discovery for me. I am old school with about a half-dozen each of the 2.5x20mm, 1.5-5x20mm, and 2.5-8x36mm under my belt. None have ever failed me with abuse up to full-power .500 A-Square use. Common traits: light weight, smaller-than-hog objective lens and 1" tube, adequate eye-relief. I'd like to get a half-dozen of the newer 1.5-4x20mm VX-Freedom for $299.99 each and give them a whirl.
Sadly the Nikon scopes are discontinued. Michael McCourry rated them better than Leupold for toughness. One of my 3-9x40mm SlugHunter scopes started to extrude the little O-ring buffer at the front of the 40mm objective lens, after 400 rounds or more of up to 500-grains at +2300 fps .458 WM+. It still shot tiny groups and tracked true to adjustment to the end. Nikon replaced it for free with the P3 Shotgun scope that obsoleted the SlugHunter. Now Nikon is no more in rifle scope biz.
Vortex ? Resurrected Tasco and then some, made in Phillipines. Nothing there is as attractive as the Leupold 1.5-4x20mm with ring reticles and MOA trim.
SWFA has a 9.5-ounce 2.5-10x32mm "Ultralight" scope but eye-relief is only 3.35"-2.56" !!! Should be good on a .22LR rimfire.
I strayed from the .458 WinMag over the two decades from 1984 to 2004. As late as 2003 I bought a .450 Dakota. I even thought it was cool to turn a Whitworth Mk X .458 WinMag into a .458 Lott, ditto what I did to a CZ 550 Magnum .458 WinMag in my prodigal days.
A factory .460 Wby Mk V lasted from 1984 to 1996, sold after a .460 Wby was built on a BBK-02 action in 1993, by Kelly Olson of Eagle River, AK. Kelly was an excellent gunsmith, of proud Norwegian heritage from Minnesota. I lost interest in the .460 Wby after getting a couple of .500 A-Square copycats done in 1999-2000 by Kevin Jenkins of Murfreesboro, TN, excellent young smith then, since turned into an MD pathologist, bless his heart.
That BBK-02 .460 Wby got re-barreled into a .470 Mbogo in 2003 when I met Master Gunsmith Rusty McGee. The 26" take-off barrel got set back a full 3" and installed on a CZ 550 Magnum. Rusty did that in 2004, cutting, re-threading, wildcat chambering, and stock work. Previous metalwork by Kelly Olson included barrel hardware and muzzle machining that was unmolested. Kelly Olson's stamp was unfortunately lost, but not forgotten, in the breech bobbing:
That was the last .458-cal stray cat I brought home until I discovered some chamber rings in a Whitworth Mk X .458 WinMag and was driven mad enough to re-chamber it to .458/.416 Ruger. The "45/.338 Lapua" is named "Thumper" in honor of Ted Williams. It is a shooter.
The above was presented for the technical aspects in considering potential Creedmost Match rifles. At 9.5 pounds it might be tough to make the weight limit with a scope on Thumper. Placing it in a B&C Medalist stock might be over the 10-pound limit even with the 2.5x20mm Leupold in CZ rings. Nevertheless, I am still very fond of Thumper.
Anyway, Ms. Bobbarella, a CZ 550 Magnum with a No. 5 Shilen of 25" length chambered for .458 WinMag is also to be considered:
Might be neat to cut her down to 23" and install same sights as on Thumper, but use muzzle threading for accessories. Probably will lose about 30 fps MV by shortening from 25" to 23". Ms. Bobbarella has done 2627 fps MV with the Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN from 25" barrel. She ought to be able to do 2600 fps with the 404-gr Shock Hammer from a 23" barrel as a .458 WM+.
SWFA has a 9.5-ounce 2.5-10x32mm "Ultralight" scope but eye-relief is only 3.35"-2.56" !!! Should be good on a .22LR rimfire.
I have a couple of the SWFA scopes. Super light, quality not as good as Leupold 2.5-8 that it competes with for me. I have one on a 6.5C (Tikka T3X) that has worked very well so far and another on a Tikka T1X. I would not go above 308 recoil with them, but if your form is good, they will not bite.
I'm still waiting patiently for my 458 Mauser to return from the smith. Once it does, I have a Nightforce 1-4 that I'm going to try on it. If that doesn't work out for some reason, then it will either get a fixed Leupold, or a 2.5-8, IDK. 8X is overkill for my intended use, but 2.5-4 or 5 should be pretty handy.
Sir Roo, I liked the NXS 1-4x24mm except I read it weighs 17 ounces and has ER of 3.5" max ? I could make that work, however. No scope has ever made me bleed. Knock wood. I just mount them forward and make do with the tunnel vision, assuming it helps me reduce parallax when I get the tunnel centered. The old Nikon 3-9x40mm shotgun scopes had 5" ER and weighed 15.2 ounces. You pay for the increased eye relief with decreased FOV, about same as the tunnel vision with a short eye relief scope. I can make do.
Sir Roo, I liked the NXS 1-4x24mm except I read it weighs 17 ounces and has ER of 3.5" max ? I could make that work, however. No scope has ever made me bleed. Knock wood. I just mount them forward and make do with the tunnel vision, assuming it helps me reduce parallax when I get the tunnel centered. The old Nikon 3-9x40mm shotgun scopes had 5" ER and weighed 15.2 ounces. You pay for the increased eye relief with decreased FOV, about same as the tunnel vision with a short eye relief scope. I can make do.
I don't remember the eye relief, but 3.5 does seem short. I'm checking with a friend there since I recall that the scope was designed as a DG scope originally. Mine weighs 16 oz, so no question it is heavier than my other options, but my Mauser 458WM is not designed to be as light as possible. I just mount everything for correct eye relief and then hold on! Haven't been hit yet, fingers crossed!
Hello Gentlemen - I've tried to read most of the posts here before posting myself, but I couldn't wait. I have a newly acquired Ruger M77 458 WM that I bought here on the Fire from DrDeath. According to the serial number it was made in 1978. As you can see, it is in mint condition with a gorgeous piece of wood on it! This is my first 458, but not my first big bore - I have two 45-70s, a Ruger No.1 Tropical and a Marlin 1895. I've been reloading for about 25 years, so reading all the good info here has given me lots of ideas of where I want to go with this beauty. I'm not sure I'm ready for full gusto, baby steps I have a RCBS mold for a 405gr FNGC that I'm hoping will work, as well as an assortment of other cast and jacketed bullets that I use for the 45-70. This thread has been highly entertaining and informative, thanks for sharing your vast knowledge on all things 458!
That's a beauty! Had one just like it. My first .458 and let it get away - should have kept it. Have had a CZ550 and now a Ruger No.1H - this one stays until I can't walk anymore. Pic on the header of my blogs.
GunLoony88, Joining us at the Square Table, eh ? What is your Sir Name ? I think you might have a Creedmost Match contender if that Circassian walnut is not too heavy. Anyway, it is about perfect in conformaton for a safari rifle, for anything on the planet. I missed out on those Ruger M77 RS and "RSC" rifles, having gone with the Ruger No. 1 and the pushfeed Winchester M70 and Remington M700 for my first three factory .458 WinMags, in that order.
I hear they did the Circassian walnut for 1976-1978, after they started making the .458WinMag RS in 1973 ? A factory letter on the internet shows one made in 1975 in Newport, NH. One book source said they started the steel bottom metal in 1976 for .458 WM while all the other M77 tang-safety models (since 1968) had aluminum, though I had always figured the .458 WinMag M77 had all-steel bottom metal from the start.
The barrel profile seems to be a bit slimmer toward the breech on the M77 than the Ruger No. 1, but do they both have similar muzzle diameter, exclusive of the band for front sight ? My Ruger No. 1 is 0.815" at 24" muzzle diameter. Does your bare, naked rifle weigh 9 pounds or 9.25 pounds ?
A set of low Ruger rings for the M77 (a #3 and a #4) weighs in at 4.3 ounces. With a 6.5-ounce 2.5x20mm you should be under 10 pounds. Whatever the exact weight, it will be a marvelous shooter.
Originally Posted by GunLoony88
Hello Gentlemen - I've tried to read most of the posts here before posting myself, but I couldn't wait. I have a newly acquired Ruger M77 458 WM that I bought here on the Fire from DrDeath. According to the serial number it was made in 1978. As you can see, it is in mint condition with a gorgeous piece of wood on it! This is my first 458, but not my first big bore - I have two 45-70s, a Ruger No.1 Tropical and a Marlin 1895. I've been reloading for about 25 years, so reading all the good info here has given me lots of ideas of where I want to go with this beauty. I'm not sure I'm ready for full gusto, baby steps I have a RCBS mold for a 405gr FNGC that I'm hoping will work, as well as an assortment of other cast and jacketed bullets that I use for the 45-70. This thread has been highly entertaining and informative, thanks for sharing your vast knowledge on all things 458!
Your 405gr FNGC will serve you well in the .458 WinMag if you cast it hard and size it to .460" or .461" diameter, +.002-.003" over groove diameter for the .458 WinMag. Whether your barrel is a Douglas or a Wilson is unknow. Another unknown is whether it is .458" or .459" in the grooves. My Ruger No. 1 is 0.459" in the grooves. 0.461" hardcast bullets work well in either 0.458" or .459" grooves that I have tried. My alloy is BHN 25 and springs back 0.001" on sizing. I push a 0.463" casting that has been powder-coat painted through a 0.460" base-pusher die with gas check and it comes out 0.461". It works. PC paint is preferred over greasers for best results in smokeless .458 WinMag loads. If you just want to plink with 1400 fps loads, about any alloy and lube combo will work.
Soon you will be flinging 404-gr Shock Hammers at 2500 fps. Add a good FN solid to that and ... one rifle, one planet, etc.
Sir Ron - not sure I deserve a spot at the Square Table just yet :-)
I have a Leupold 1.5x5 in Ruger low rings that I "borrowed" from my tanger M77 .243 (my first deer rifle) - it may never go back.....
I believe this one is Circassian walnut, but the original box doesn't have RSC on it. Regardless, it's beautiful to me. I haven't weighed it yet, but it's lighter that I expected based on my calibrated arm. It does have a steel floorplate - my .243 has an aluminum one.
Thanks for the info on the cast bullets - I haven't used PC, but it's on my list for experiments. I have about 1000lbs of wheel weights that my Dad scrounged years ago, so I may not be able to get them to a BHN of 25 easily, but I doubt I'll need a bullet to handle 2400fps for a while. Any recommendations on a sizing setup? My dad has a Lyman .458 setup, but as you mention, .460 or .461 would work better.
Mine didn't have the fancy walnut that was still rather light in color, but it had the steel bottom metal. Also, it had a diagonal steel brace in the forearm: one end attached to the barrel and the other farther back into a channel in the forearm that had a bolt through the forearm bottom that could be removed in disassembly of stock from the barreled action. Also the barrel was 22". The rifle looked very unused - not sure if some of what's been described was the work of a gunsmith, but the barrel band sight was in place without any sign of work on it or barrel was noticeable.
But it was, perhaps, the "toughest" rifle I'd ever owned. And accurate with those 500gr Hornady RNs. I used two similar loads for those 500s: 68 grns of H4895 and 69 of RL-15 for just under 2000 fps. At one time I shot six of those into a ragged hole at 100: three each from those two loads. I did shoot a young bear with a reduced load of the 350gr Speer at 2345 fps as it walked away at 70-75 yds. Hit in the liver and bullet came out near back of head removing part of the skull after removing several inches of spine.
I loved that rifle but muzzle blast caused deafness to my right ear from that hunt (I shoot from my left side). So it got traded for my first Ruger No.1 in .45-70. Still, I learned some lessons from that experience that I've talked about in some past blogs.
In any case, a well built and balanced .458 Win is always a good choice. For a handloader, it can serve a lifetime of fun and adventure.
GL88, Don't be fearful of trying those wheel weights. More important than BHN is filling up the grooves on your rifle and Sir RC's advice on size is good. Powder coating also is a good thing in the cast rifle load world and the paint does add some size with two coats it seems. The Push through Lee sizer is a good choice, but I don't think they are doing "custom" sizes like .460 or .461 in their shop anymore. Sadly. Here's to hoping your mold drops a nice big .460 bullet and you can Paint it up and enjoy your new magnificent 458 WM.
GunLoony88, Of course you are worthy. Might as well go ahead and pick your "Nom de Knight." 1.5-5x20mm Leupold in low Ruger rings would be perfect on your rifle. I don't know if "RSC" was ever marked on the box of an RS with the special wood, 1976-1978 only, just from readings. Still looking for a box with RSC on it here. The old clip-on wheel weights can be heat treated to over 30 BHN, if needed.
Like Sir Dennis said: Shoot as-cast without sizing if they come out of your mould at 0.460"-0.461". Water-dropping then will give harder WW bullets than air-cooled. But to apply a gas check, best is to get a simple 0.460" base-pusher sizer from CH4D if LEE is not making them right now. Might look at NOE too. Use any reloading press with these push-through sizer dies. My ".45" sizers are from LEE, good enough, and less expensive than CH4D.
As the source for all 458 WM knowledge I suspect you’ll know the answer to my current conundrum.
I was fortunate to source an OEM Win M-70 Safari Express rear sight assembly which will arrive tomorrow. I plan to install it on my Win M-70 Classic 460 G&A as the primary sighting system for my Zim trip.
Do you know the sight radius - rear surface of front sight to rear sight blade - on a Win M-70 Safari Express 24” barrel? I’d like to duplicate the sight radius.
Sir Ron - thanks for the info, collecting quite a bit of data from reading all the past posts. So much info here!!
A little Rifle Loony background - As Mule Deer is one of my favorite gun writers, a lesson learned from him started my quest for a 458 here on the 'Fire about 3 years ago while scanning the Classifieds. I found a chap selling 458WM brass and dies for a good deal, so it started there. So with brass & dies in hand, I start the search for the suitable launch platform. I briefly thought of sending a Mauser 1909 Arg action I have off to be worked on, but when I started calculating the costs, it got outta hand FAST! I'm sure it would have turned out beautiful, but with 2 kids in college, I came to my senses. I started to scan GB every few days for about a year, finding all sorts of interesting ideas. After seeing a few Ruger M77s, my focus shifted there, as the styling just suits me. I found a few, but just couldn't "pull the trigger" as it were. Time went on, then just a couple of weeks ago, low and behold, a fellow member here on the 'Fire had the Ruger above for a great deal, so she now has a new home.
I'll probably never make it to Africa, so the Southern whitetail will be my first quarry. My first "trophy" buck was taken with a Marlin 47/70 using a Hornady 325gr FTX at about 2000fps years ago, so I'll probably focus on the lighter side of 458 to start. I do have some 500gr RN cast bullets saved from my No.1 45/70 loads that should do nicely if I want to shoot through a pine tree or two :-).
If allowed, my "Nom de Knight" name can be Thomas.
I was fortunate to source an OEM Win M-70 Safari Express rear sight assembly which will arrive tomorrow. I plan to install it on my Win M-70 Classic 460 G&A as the primary sighting system for my Zim trip. Do you know the sight radius - rear surface of front sight to rear sight blade - on a Win M-70 Safari Express 24” barrel? I’d like to duplicate the sight radius.
More useful techniciana: A .416 RemMag M70 Classic Safari Express (CT-made) walnut and matte black: Nominal 24" barrel is actually 23-3/4". Muzzle to front bead = 1.25" Breech face to rear sight notch = 4-5/8" (single standing fixed leaf, with insert adjustable with tiny screws on leaf) Sight radius = 17-7/8" = 17.875"
A .375 H&H M70 Classic Stainless (CT-made): Nominal 24" barrel is actually 23-3/4". Muzzle to front bead = 1.25" Breech face to rear sight notch = 4-1/4" (fold-down single leaf, adjustable with tiny screws on leaf insert) Sight radius = 18"
A .458 WinMag M70 Super Grade (FN/SC-made): Nominal 24" barrel is actually 23-3/4". Muzzle to front bead = 1.25" Breech face to rear sight notch = 5-9/16" (2-leaf pivoting on base, one up and one down, drift for windage, solid leaves filed for elevation, or change front bead) Sight radius = 16-15/16 = 16.9375"
Answer: Based on my sample M70s, it varies some, maybe depending on type of rear sight, all front sights same. 17" to 18" would be a good ballpark for sight radius for a "24-inch" barrel.
Sir Thomas, Yes, Mule Deer/Barsness is a National Treasure. I've got all his books through GUN GACK III, need to check on what the latest is ... What did he say that got you on the quest for a .458 WinMag ? You made good choices along the way, congratulations again.
I called Richard Near of Near Manufacturing on the Summer Solstice. He had what I needed on the shelf. His Picatinny rails, 20-MOA, stainless steel, nitride black finish, for an M70 Classic WSM actioned .458 B&M+ and an M98 FN/Parker Hale commercial Mauser .458 WinMag.
For anybody doing Creedmost Match Rifle weight calculations, those weigh about 4 ounces, for a M70 Classic long action. I will try to get weights on all three rails when in possession. They have an integral recoil stop on bottom of rail, super duty.
More trivia: I weighed a set of two Burris Xtreme Tactical rings, one-inch LOW rings. They each registered 991.6 grains on a digital scale capable of 1500 grains. Precise Chinese manufacture, eh ? Anyway, a set of two of them weighs 4.533 ounces, call it 4-1/2 ounces. 30mm LOW pair of same make = 4.8 ounces.
Recall that a set of LOW Ruger rings (3&4) for M77 = 4.3 ounces A set of LOW Ruger rings for the No. 1 (3&3) = 4.1 ounces
A 9-pound Ruger No.1 with a 9.6-ounce 1.5-4x20mm Leupold and 4.1 ounces of rings = 9 lbs 13.7 oz. Creedmost Match worthy and then some.
Very helpful. The dimensions you provided for sight radius are very similar to what I had in mind for the 460 G&A and the total rear sight height works quite well with the stock.
Measuring my barrel I note that the diameter at the point where the 6-48 screw which attaches the sight base to it is 0.960”. After calculating the barrel wall thickness (0.251”) a tapped hole of 0.10”-0.120” depth should work - about 4-5 threads engaged - and still leave sufficient steel for safety. Will probably reinforce the installation with Loctite Black Max 480.
Do you have any experience with a sight mounted with a screw at that depth on your 458s?
Sir Khulu, For a Winchester rear sight base 4-5 threads engaged should do well with your Loctite. If not: J-B Weld. I had a Ruger No. 1 quarter rib (rear sight, scope and rings for recoil action-reaction abuse) come off the barrel of a .475 Linebaugh factory Ruger No. Never a problem after J-B-Welding.
Sir Ron - it was something along the lines of grading the amount of "Rifle Loonyism" someone has. Like "have you ever started a project because you got a good deal on brass?" which is how I got started on this quest :-)
Just saw the photos of you M-77 TS 458 WM. Quite a piece of wood you have there! To my untrained eye it certainly seems like Circassian, with the grain pattern very reminiscent of the Ruger RSMs.
My TS 458 has a totally unremarkable, plain but straight-grained and dense light stock. Its DOM is 1978 and it too has a steel floor plate. These are nice rifles. My biggest peeve is magazine length set at 3.340”. My rifle’s ramp configuration is unfriendly to FP monolithic, so I feed it Barnes RN 500 grain solids when the situation calls for it. However I prefer to shoot Berry plated RN 350s in this one and reserve the FP Solids for the Hawkeye.
Very nice rifle you’ve acquired to launch your Square Table quest. Kudos, Brother Knight. I’ll leave the formal welcome to Sir Ron.
Sir Ron - it was something along the lines of grading the amount of "Rifle Loonyism" someone has. Like "have you ever started a project because you got a good deal on brass?" which is how I got started on this quest :-)
Been there done that, Sir Thomas. Sounds perfectly sane to me.
For Sir Khulu: I was only joking about the "Dirty Finn Rifle" as a substitute for a "Dirty Harry Rifle."
Turns out Finn Aagaard had a "Clean Finn Rifle." His first .458 WinMag rifle was indeed a Dirty Harry that he cleaned up by removing the ARSE (African Rear Sight Equipment) and installing the Lyman 48 to use as a ghost-ring peep sight. I will go load up some historically significant images ...
Well, that may make no sense to anyone but me, but my sense of humor likes it, the Dirty Finn Rifle versus the Clean Finn Rifle made from a Dirty Harry Rifle, heh-heh-heh.
The factory ammo tested in Saint Sir Finn's rifles:
The four rifles used by Saint Sir Finn for chronographing velocities of the factory loads:
The results:
Note the "free-travel distance" in throat of the various rifles. This would be for free-travel movement of bullet to first contact in the rifling at bullet = groove diameter, which should be at minimum 0.6725", with no slop in a SAAMI chamber and assuming bullet diameter = groove diameter = 0.458". Saint Sir Finn's .425 WR rifle re-barreled to .458 WinMag had a very short throat, allowing higher velocities and pressures. He thought pressures were never excessive in this rifle or any of his rifles with any and all factory loads he had ever used.
This might be a young Saint Sir Finn on the right below, sometime after 1967:
Ditto Sir Scotty. Saint Sir Finn first appeared in AMERICAN RIFLEMAN in 1981 after he submitted an unsolicited manuscript "Matching the Bullet to the Game," or something like that. He became a regular after that. In 1983 he did an article about "The Professional's Rifle" that was probably the inspiration for Phil Shoemaker's Ol'Ugly.
Just for fun, here is why sportsmen were so eager to put away the 4-bore for the .450 NE, and the .458 WinMag is all of a .450 NE and more:
Very convincing evidence of the strength of the Near rail mounting system.
I have avoided one piece mounts on my heavy caliber DGRs because access to the loading port - both for ejection and reloading - are a higher priority for me in close quarters with DG than the last measure of long range accuracy. YMMV
As much as I’ve gotten to better understand the 458 WM’s capabilities - largely through Sir Ron’s sharing of his encyclopedic knowledge with the Square Table - my use for the 458s, whether in WM, WM+, and now (for me) in 450 Rigby Rimless and 460 G&A chamberings- is definitively dealing with DG inside 50 yards, most often closer.
No matter how good at anatomical shot placement a DG hunter might be, many large DG animals don’t instantaneously collapse at the shot and that 3rd or 4th cartridge, which sometimes requires topping off the magazine and launched rapidly, does frequently save the day.
Having had a chance encounter with a large kudu, now hanging on my wall, at 240+ yards with a DGR 404-375 Ruger in my hands, I appreciate long(er) range accuracy. But IME it’s not my first priority.
Not arguing against the choices described, just offering a complementary perspective. As JOC observed a generation and 1/2 ago, let’s remember that “shooting and hunting is about fun and games,” deadly serious sometimes I would add, but preferences vary as much as our own individuality.
More power to the folks that can make 458s into long range cannons - they are the leading edge of innovation and progress.
Here is a history of the model names used for the post-1963 Winchester Model 70 .458 Winchester Magnum rifles.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Cabela's rifles turn into collector rifles as they did at least at that time, try to do everything right and there are some great rifles out there with wonderful wood for factory rifles. My Cabela's 7x57 is one of the 2 most accurate rifles I have ever shot, the other being a Model 70 Stainless in .300 RUM. So many under half inch groups between them. Wish my eyes could still do it.
Very convincing evidence of the strength of the Near rail mounting system.
I have avoided one piece mounts on my heavy caliber DGRs because access to the loading port - both for ejection and reloading - are a higher priority for me in close quarters with DG than the last measure of long range accuracy. YMMV ...
Sir Khulu, I used to fret like that too, until I learned that Ross Seyfried saw no problem with a partially obstructed port, I call this the "Seyfried-Single-Schtick" because only the rear base is schticking out over the port:
This is what drove me to Near Perfection:
Could a Near, Mfg. rail for the CZ 550 Magnum be next ? I bet Richard Near could come up with something better than my J-B-Welded monstrosity. Until then, I'll get by.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Cabela's rifles turn into collector rifles as they did at least at that time, try to do everything right and there are some great rifles out there with wonderful wood for factory rifles. My Cabela's 7x57 is one of the 2 most accurate rifles I have ever shot, the other being a Model 70 Stainless in .300 RUM. So many under half inch groups between them. Wish my eyes could still do it.
Sir Woods, I like that ! As out of the box, my Cabela's .458 WM could not be improved except by that NEAR MFG rail.
I have avoided one piece mounts on my heavy caliber DGRs because access to the loading port - both for ejection and reloading - are a higher priority for me in close quarters with DG than the last measure of long range accuracy. YMMV
I also refrained from using a Picatinny rail on my Mdl-70 for the same reason. I wanted the action as open as possible. But Sir Ron does have me looking hard at the Near rails. Almost all of my other rifles have rails on them, that sure makes scope swapping easier.
Also, as far as rings, I went with the Leupold Mark4 rings to mount a VX-5HD 1-5x 24mm scope. I figured that a little extra weight would help some of the recoil, but I have been thinking about replacing those rings with the Quick-Release Leupolds, for tool-less scope removal. What is the opinion of the group on rings?
In the past, I thought about a 458 American or a Siamese Mauser in 45/70, for a large bore bolt gun, but this forum makes me glad I got the 458 WM. That is a much more versatile caliber than the others. It truly is a mice to moose rifle.
Yep, no rifle can be perfect for everything, beyond Near Perfection, heh-heh-heh. You gots to make your choices. I like the Leupold QRW better than Talley, especially since they work on the Near Picatinny. I have busted Talley rings, more than once. Never busted a Leupold QRW on recoil as high as .500 A2 and 12gaFH. I like the Burris Xtreme Tactical rings too, but have to carry a pocket socket tool with them to fit the 1/2" nut. Strong, great value for the bucks, uglier than the QRW from Leupold. No rifle can be perfect in every way for all jobs, even if it is a .458 WinMag, which comes closest of all, near perfect.
Here are some Leupold QRW rings that have survived me and recoil:
The ocular bell on the 30mm tube might have required the medium height rather than low. Or maybe I didn't have the low 30mm QRW rings at hand ... but I do now ! Sometimes you have to go higher to allow the bolt handle to clear the bell on working.
The Near Picatinny sure does makes it easy to swap a scope for a backup scope or a red dot, with various ring spacings, etc.
I have found an old collection of cast .458 bullets in multiple weights and styles, from 500gr to around 325gr, maybe 200 total. They were lubed with a red colored lube of unknown origin. I would like to remove the lube and try to PC them. Anyone have a good way to get the lube off of 200+ bullets without taking all year? Do I now waste my time and just re-melt them and cast new bullets?
Sir Thomas, Rooster Red ? I have never tried to remove the lubes from greaser bullets for PC painting. I could imagine kerosine soak followed by Gumout spray of your choice then a hot water wash with Blue Dawn, and rinse, rinse, rinse. But what a bunch of trouble and expense ! Not to mention, what hardness are the various bullets ?
Since you want to PC paint them, I would not risk leaving traces of lubes, solvents or detergents after all the elbow grease of trying to get them squeaky clean. All that old lube will make excellent flux in the melting pot. Stir it all in and skim it all off the top. Check for hardness of the batch and use appropriately.
Sir Ron - Do you have any experience with these Talley 2-piece Picatinny rail mounts? I was thinking of something that would allow switching between a scope and a reflex red dot sight. I haven't tried to figure out if the 1.35" length of the front rail is enough for mounting an RMR-type reflex sight.
I modified a front extended Warne Weaver-pattern steel mount by milling the forward slot to accommodate the lever-actuated QR OEM base on my Holosun 530C. That along with gluing the base with Loctite Black Max 480 and 8-40 torx screws held in place for 21 shots of 500 grain solids at 2400 fps yesterday.
The rear base is unmodified and spaced to hold a Leupold 1-4x25 scope in Warne steel lever QR rings as a backup.
TOV,
The Warne lever steel rings are a replacement for Leupold lever lever QRs which allowed the 1-4 scope slide on recoil from the 460 G&A. I had the same rings on heavy medium bores in the past with good results but not on this DGR.
Sir Ron - Do you have any experience with these Talley 2-piece Picatinny rail mounts? I was thinking of something that would allow switching between a scope and a reflex red dot sight. I haven't tried to figure out if the 1.35" length of the front rail is enough for mounting an RMR-type reflex sight.
Sir Hannay, Most excellent to see you still at it. I have not been using any of the Talley stuff since their vertical split rings went south on me. Now that they have modernized to cross-slot bases and horizontally split rings I say they deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Though I completely agree with you about horizontal split rings being superior, I have used the vertically split Talley's for many years without issue. On some guns they just fit better than pic rings. What happened to yours?
Inspired by your observations about the Leupold Freedom 1-4x25 I’ve been looking for one and found my preferred model, the MOA Ring reticle, today.
It’s now mounted on the Hawkeye African hybrid 458 WM on the steel Warne rings. I’m staying with the principle that light scopes tend to fare better in hard recoiling DGRs. IIRC This scope weighs about the same as the reliable old Leupold 2-7x28 Compacts I’ve used for many years.
Plan to sight it in this week and will also check the new FS as a backup.
Those new Talley mounting nuts look a lot like a slight variant of the Ruger ring mounting nuts.
Now that I think about it, the Talley’s follow many of the Ruger integral-base mounting system principles - clamp mounting base, recoil lug and double torx screws on the horizontally split rings.
The more things change, the more they remain the same.
Hannay, I modified a front extended Warne Weaver-pattern steel mount by milling the forward slot to accommodate the lever-actuated QR OEM base on my Holosun 530C. That along with gluing the base with Loctite Black Max 480 and 8-40 torx screws held in place for 21 shots of 500 grain solids at 2400 fps yesterday.
Well now, a not-too-heavy, none-too-light, teeter totter balanced on a central single base, with a handy little lever to lock it in place, we hope.
Though I completely agree with you about horizontal split rings being superior, I have used the vertically split Talley's for many years without issue. On some guns they just fit better than pic rings. What happened to yours?
Sir Roo, I still use Talley vertical splits in a couple of cases, where the firearm was already equipped for such. I go easy on them. I will dig up some broken Talley ring pics. To be continued ...
The Warne lever steel rings are a replacement for Leupold lever lever QRs which allowed the 1-4 scope slide on recoil from the 460 G&A. I had the same rings on heavy medium bores in the past with good results but not on this DGR.
I see this as the only good reason to use the Warne vertical splits instead of the Leupold QRW horizontal splits:
.500 Mbogo No. 1 took cape buffalo with above above setup. .510-cal./450-grainers at 2650 to 2850 fps.
... It’s now mounted on the Hawkeye African hybrid 458 WM on the steel Warne rings. I’m staying with the principle that light scopes tend to fare better in hard recoiling DGRs. IIRC This scope weighs about the same as the reliable old Leupold 2-7x28 Compacts I’ve used for many years. Plan to sight it in this week and will also check the new FS as a backup.
9.5 ounces is great, advertised at 9.6 ounces, hooray !
I got the same scope with the MOA-Ring reticle, will be trying it on the FN M98 Creedmost .458 WinMag.
My final comments for today on scopes and mounts on a .458 WinMag: There is no excuse for a scope sliding in the rings: Use silicone adhesive inside the rings. With the QRW, only the lower ring half need be glued. This makes disassembly and cleanup easy if your long-surviving scope needs to be changed in ring placement. That only happens if it is not on a Near Mfg rail.
The .470 Mbogo above does 2700 fps with 500-grainers. It can also be loaded down to .470 NE ballistics, using same loads as used in a .470 NE. Same case capacity. The lightning bolt checkering pattern on the forearm is my first and last self-taught checkering job.
You still need to use the silicone, but not the J-B Weld with a Near Mfg rail. Using J-B Weld on a Near Mfg rail would really be gilding the lilly.
Your depiction of the Holosun as a teeter totter was exactly how it struck me when I first mounted it. As a result I mounted it on a much lower QD mount. I reverted to the taller OEM mount because it has 2 recoil lugs which now fit into the modified Warne base while the lower base relied solely on the cross bolt for the dual purpose of tightening the base claw and locating the mount on a single cross slot. The thing didn’t inspire confidence in long lasting stability.
The problem that developed with the lower base was loosening of the original front 6-48 screw. That’s the reason I converted the bases and the receiver to 8-40 screws and glued the front mount with Black Max 480.
This week’s single range session consisted of 21 rounds of 500 grain solids at 2400 fps MV. Neither the base nor the QR lever, which locks in place and is purposely positioned forward have failed to perform as designed. I’m not concerned about the optic yet as it has been tested under much higher forces than to ~80 lbs-ft recoil the 460 generates in this rifle.
Understand the concerns and rationale while learning from the sage council you’re providing.
Ron, Wildcatter264 - thanks for your ideas and information. I haven't made any decisions yet. I have an Aimpoint Micro-H1 that sits closer to the rail and only weighs 3 oz. The Trijicon website says an RMR weighs 1.2 oz, thought they give the same weight with and without a Picatinny rail mount. Lots to think about...
IMHO the most significant factors in deciding which red/green dot optic to select and how to mount it are the intended use of the rifle and the recoil level.
Though it’s a bit more expensive and larger/heavier than the micro optics I opted for the Holosun 530G because I use my DGR in the field where dirt, brush, etc are always an issue for the sights. it’s a closed emitter system so stuff between the projector and screen will not put it out of commission. The titanium body, electronic components and mechanicals seem to hold up well to physical forces and battery life and replacement are very favorable.
If the rifle were predominantly intended for the shooting range I would have probably gone with a light, open emitter model and the mounting problem would have been much simpler.
The most significant hurdle for me to overcome was the decision to mount any optics on a close quarters DGR. Scopes - even low power non magnifiers - constrict FOV in the periphery, especially the strong side - and can pose a real problem with target fixation, even shooting with both eyes open. The non-magnifyiging digital projectors reduce the problem significantly but don’t eliminate it completely.
My preference for large caliber DGRs is still iron open sights. However, as my PH observed, I grew up, like most modern American hunters, shooting with a scope and since we all revert to our training, an optic seems worth considering. YMMV
Check out this Custom (Winchester Custom Shop or Unknown Custom Gunsmith ? ) Super Express .458 WinMag of Sir Woods. Will the mystery ever be solved, before .458 WinMag history becomes .458 WinMag archeology ?
I'm pretty sure that if Dirty Harry went to Alaska he would want one of these in his kit, and I want dibbs on it should Sir Woods grow tired of it:
The only way I could improve it for my tastes would be to put a Near Mfg. Picatinny on it and pack an assortment of optics and a peep sight to interchange on the rail for backup. Note that I said for my tastes, and that YMMV as Sir Khuku said.
Sir Woods has the littermate to the Cabela's .458 WinMag Super Grade here:
Though I completely agree with you about horizontal split rings being superior, I have used the vertically split Talley's for many years without issue. On some guns they just fit better than pic rings. What happened to yours?
Mine and others. Must have been a bad bit of metallurgy and/or design problems. Going to cross-slot bases and horizontal split rings is one way to improve.
On a lighter note, the 380-gr Lehigh monometal copper FN bullet from Lehigh, loaded by Buffalo Bore for the .45-70 Gov't. is sufficient for cape buffalo. This is according to "Tank" Hoover in the AUGUST 2023 issue of GUNS magazine. Tank went on safari with Tim Sundles. Tank killed the buffalo with one shot at "just over" 100 yards range, using a peep-sighted Ruger-Marlin. MV must have been "just over" 2000 fps.
And the Lottites say the .458 WinMag is useless ?
Sir Khulu, Sorry about the "Sir Khuku" typo above. Totally accidental. It would take a comedian with more talent than I have to do that on purpose.
That Buffalo Bore, 45-70 380 Lehigh is hauling arse. I am hoping to get a hand-loaded meager, in comparison, 1850 fps in my 20" 45-70. Which will still should be more than sufficient for my purposes, even with the 18" barrels. I have some of these BB factory loads to chronograph and compare, once I get other projects done.
Of course, I have these 380's loaded for the range trials in both 458 Winchester & Lott. Time and favorably weather have been an issue this summer. I believe this may be the ultimate all-around flat point solid for anything North American sized.
I am very grateful for Michael's load development and testing of this bullet in the 458's.
Sir Larry, Same situation here with weather and the figurative creeks having risen. We'll gitterdun eventually. I own more .45-70 Gov't. than .458 WinMag rifles. Though I am working on correcting that, it may never happen, and I'll be no worse off either way.
Sir Ron, I have JM marked Marlins in 20" blued and walnut, 20" stainless / laminate, and another unfired as issued blue/walnut. I carried the older blued out this spring for a walk-about. The first time it has been out it many years. The unmolested one was going to be a .50 conversion, that I decided not to do.
It is a toss up for me between unscoped versions of lever guns and bolt rifles with 20" barrels. I guess it depends on the day. I hiked around with the older blued one quite a bit, 20 or so years ago. But, my heart is more into the bolt rifles. I have a few revolver cartridge levers but they are mostly in the fun-gun category. Heck, I actually have some other levers. But, still prefer bolt rifles.
Sir Larry, I have similar lever action proclivities as you. Thutty-thutty Mahlon was my first. Pop's last 1894 before the safety and angle eject BS started is a treasure, as is the Ted Williams made by Winchester for Sears and Roebuck, that I found at Biff's Gun World before Biff lost his FFL due to sloppy paperwork. That is my only worn-silver "antique." All the rest are modern resurrections. 30-06, .348 WCF, 38-55 WCF, .405 WCF, 44-40 WCF, 45 LC, .45-75 WCF, and mostly .45-70 Gov't. Had .444 Marlin and .450 Marlin briefly, but decided .45-70 was better. Bought the .348 to convert to .500 B&M Alaskan but figured the .45-70 was good enough.
Maybe I should not be so displeased by those vertical split ring makers. They might be OK if you check every screw and lever or nut after every shot.
I thought I was done with wildcats. Not. James Watts needs to be honored with an undoing of the .458 Lott. The .458 Watts Express. 2.7" case fitted into the .458 WinMag chamber with no lengthening of the existing Throat.
This corrects the silliness of lengthening the brass by 0.3" while only lengthening the magazine box by only 0.2".
Muzzle diameter is 0.730", just right according to Goldilocks, or was that Goldilands ?
IIRC, this was a fast rifle, and an accurate rifle, with Sir Jerry's handloads. Sluggin' the bore and checking the throat length and twist rate is next. The barrel length is actually 24-1/4" by my measure, with action cocked and measuring rod in bore. That is same length as the 1:10" FN Mauser that was recently liberated from Hilltop Gun Shop and Spa for Wayward Rifles. First order is to compare the presumed 1:14" Karab. 98b MV to the 1:10" twist FN. The latter rifle is now named Freki, like the other wolf of Odin. Freki rhymes with trekkie. Geri and Freki, fraternal twins, wolf littermates, heh-heh-heh.
As you were. Using the Hornady factory ammo with verified 500-gr MV of 2140 fps in other 24" rifles of 1:14" twist should be informative.
Thanks for the reply, bluefish. Here is something that would be another proper fashion accessory for Knights of the Square Table at any formal gatherings:
Sir Ron, Once again an Enjoyable read! Rest in Peace Mr. Bagwell as he truly left a tremendous Mark upon those who met and knew him. He is one of those gentlemen I wished I would have met! I know I would have learned a lot from Him! Some Day I will own one of his Gem's! The hunt for one is all the fun. I'm a little picky and I know their hard to come by and I passed on one that I liked but didn't have to have as it was nice but not my first choice if I had one. Truly an Artist! 'Keep Your Powder Dry"!
Very nice rifle. I do not own one of the Butler Creek stocks. But, if they would have continued production, I probably would have one or more of them. Once upon a time, there was the Gun Nutt or similar spelling in Anchorage. He put together quite a few Interarms Mark X / Whitworth with the Butler Creek stocks. The mid-east oilfield reconstruction paid more considerably for his talents than gunsmithing so he closed and moved on. He was a most enjoyable character.
Although not exactly a 458 WM, on the way back from the last practice session with my African ready DGRs 3 days ago, I found one of its interesting children on a brief stop at a LGS.
This is shop owned by a frequent Africa hunter with a couple of NA sheep grand slams on the wall. Not uncommon to find consignment custom DGR bolts and sometimes SxS DRs.
The rifle I saw a couple of days ago is a 416 Taylor by Dakota Arms. For the few uninformed in wildcatting lunacy, that’s a necked down 458 WM case. It was outfitted with an exhibition grade black walnut stock and most interestingly, the bolt was marked as a Shot Show rifle.
Execution was flawless, both in metal and in the ribbon fleur-de-lis checkered stock. To my hands it seemed somewhat heavy for caliber - probably at or close to 11 lbs - with a 24” barrel profiled very similar to a Douglas 5A and a 30 mm Leupold scope.
Beautiful DGR to handle and behold, but I’ll keep my workaday Ruger Hawkeye 458 WM for field use, a task it will undertake shortly.
got back from Africa 2 weeks ago so I have to get in gear and post a full report but need to figure out how to post pictures as I am a dork when it comes to doing things on the computer. but here is how the cape buff hunt went with my 458 plus P. 404 gr shock Hammer bullet 80 gr AA2230 for 2460 fps. came across the buff standing looking at me with death on his face at about 20 yards PH said shoot him, put a bullet in the left shoulder that went thru the heart we found out later and he spun and ran about 50 feet and went down, got behind him and put the insurance shot between the shoulders and done. neither bullet was recovered. this was a plains game hunt with a cow buff on the plate for 3000 but the Safari owner said if we could come up with an old bull broken horn or not wide I could take him for 5000 instead of the normal 8500 he quoted months ago. I did not tape him but I would say he was about 38 inches but the boss was a good 14 plus inches, wide huge bull. we guessed his weight at about 17-1800 pounds and he was very old probably his last year, a great animal. also took Sable, Kudu, Zebra, and 2 huge warthogs was a great trip to the East Cape
For clarification on the not recovered bullets, were they exits ? Or not pass throughs and the bullets were not found during the processing?
Reported here on 10/17/2022, Sir Jerry's Safari. He was the first man on earth to kill a cape buffalo with the 404-gr Shock Hammer, page 137 of this thread:
And he left some .458 WinMag 404-gr Shock Hammers with his PH. PH might have single-loaded the 3.480" COL, circa 2500 fps MV ammo, if his .458 WinMag is standard 3.4" boxed. It worked out, shot into onside shoulder of a ~3300-pound bull giraffe:
"I shot him right on the shoulder and the bullet traveled right through the animal. On the other side of the skin it got stuck, and that's what I got back" ...
... "I only found one of the petals but it worked really well. It's like I said, it traveled right through the animal ... both the lungs were gone. So yeah, they really work. Thank you very much. Just wanted to share that with you."
Sir Ron, I'd like to stand as best man for the bride and groom.
Sir John, The King would be honored. You must merely accept appointment to the position of "Gentleman to the Bedchamber of the King." Don't worry, nothing gay about it, just sort of ambassador-at-large/advisor position. Dress for all attendee Knights will be armor and sword or baseball cap and Bowie knife.
Sir Tony, A triple for me too, to Sir Jerry's health.
Here is the rest of the poop on Geraldine aka Geri: The Leupold QR mounts were loose, and the rearmost screw was stripped. This will be fixed by J-B WELD of some steel Weaver bases onto Geraldine. The rear bridge base holes as present will not allow enlargement of the 6x48 to 8x40. Since Sir Jerry was getting by with only 3 of his 4 base screws working, I think the J-B WELD and 4 new 6x48 screws will do. Geri will be solidly sighted.
The set of Leupold QR bases and low rings weighed 5.013 ounces total for front and rear. Removing these and replacing with a set of steel Weaver bases only (1.711 ounces for the pair) gives a rifle weight of 8# 2- or 3-ounces. Removing the naval bronze from the bore, now spotless-clean, made the weight of rifle with scope bases only = 8 pounds and 2 ounces. That is what my scales say now, and I am sticking to it, heh-heh-heh.
Squeaky-clean bore was lubed with an oily patch (BreakFree CLP) and slugged with a .50-cal. soft lead ball. Bore was uniformly tight throughout to my feel. Six grooves 0.458" groove diameter 0.450" bore diameter 1:14" twist.
A SPECIAL THROAT WAS FOUND ! It is non-SAAMI, making it a ".458 WinMag Special." It is more than twice as long as a SAAMI .458 Lott throat.
Overall Geri is quite SPECIAL. She is superbly balanced and rugged as it gets. I expect her to be speedy and accurate. I like the old Winchester XTR-type rear sight. Good with peep.
Geraldine had her rear worked over more than once, somewhere in the past. Numbering her rear 4 holes, from #1 to #4, from stripper clip cut forward to rear of bridge, #1 and #3 were 6x48 and usable for FN rear base screws. #2 was a boogered 8x40 hole that needed some burrs filed flush. #4 was a a 6x48 hole nicely filed with a plug screw. I could not find holes to fit at rear bridge for a Near Mfg. Picatinny. Not enough steel left in the bridge for more or larger holes. No worries, she has a tight rear base now, and a solid front base too, glued and screwed:
Sir Jerry had a load for Geraldine with Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid 500-grainer, single-fed, may have been a bit longer than 3.340" COL, but still fit nicely in Geraldine's shorter-than-SAAMI throat. 2325 fps and no signs of pressure with his .458 WM+ load in this rifle.
The shorter-than-SAAMI throat and minimum groove diameter (0.458") of this ".458 WM Special" might explain Geraldine's speediness and accuracy, though one might guess pressure might be over 60,000 psi, might even be as high as the MAP of the SAAMI .458 Lott, heh-heh-heh.
So any comparison of 1:14"-twist Geri to 1:10"-Freki will have to bear in mind the throat difference too. More than one variable ! Better to compare both Geri and Freki to the Cabela's Super Grade .458 WinMag of all SAAMI standards.
For comparison of Freki's 1:10"-twist, SAAMI-throated results to those of 1:14"-twist rifles, using same 500-gr Hornady factory loads:
Both rifles will also be trialed for Creedmost Match shooting. They both are under 10 pounds, just need triggers adjusted to 3 pounds, no less. That Leupold Muzzleloader scope is a stand-in for the Nikon SlugHunter, InLine, and P3 Shotgun scopes. Nikon got PC and went out of the rifle scope business ?
Interesting tests for "TBI" (ThermoBallisticIndependence) of some powders in the .223 RM with heavy bullets for caliber (64gr and 75gr) by "Mr. T " (T_the_Tinkerer, of Hammer Time Forums):
Any propellant good in the .223 RM is good in the .458 WM. Many excellent new ball powders have been developed recently. The .458 WM just keeps getting better and better.
AA-2230 and AA-2460 post-2016 have mediocre TBI compared to some, but they are still quite good compared to how ball powders used to be in the past, and a lot better than the old IMR stick powders. Still top performers in the .458 WM, just be aware of the "not bad TBI" and make allowance for heat.
Get a load of the "paradoxical" AR-Comp, with velocity increasing in extreme cold, leveling off in the midrange temps and increasing very little in extreme heat.
Ditto Benchmark, the "Extreme" stick powder by Hodgdon, but even better TBI, almost a flat and level line for velocity from -8*F to +162*F.
X-Terminator used to be identical to AA-2230, some say, still pretty close, and has better TBI.
IMR-3031 was the old standard for .458 WM and 500-gr bullets, easy to do 2150 fps in a 24" barrel, even back in the dark ages. Hodgdon's Benchmark Extreme may be substituted grain for grain in the .458 WM to replace the IMR-3031. This should be done by no later than yesterday.
I hear the rampaging transexual shooter at the church school in Nashville was stopped by a cop with a Vortex 1-6x24mm Strike Eagle on his AR. True 1X with illuminated AR BDC 3-MOA reticle, like a red dot and a BDC capability for near and far.
I wonder if illuminated reticles should be trusted on the .458 WM ? Will they hold up to such moderate recoil as that ? That scope weighs 18.5 ounces per spec sheet. Not bad. Geri and Freki both could make sub-10-pound weight with that.
If it is good for a rampaging trannie in a school room, ought to handle about any DG duties well on 1X, and still have 6X available for PG duties.
And the Democraps are still hiding the transexual shooter's manifesto ... I wonder why ?
I hear the rampaging transexual shooter at the church school in Nashville was stopped by a cop with a Vortex 1-6x24mm Strike Eagle on his AR. True 1X with illuminated AR BDC 3-MOA reticle, like a red dot and a BDC capability for near and far.
I wonder if illuminated reticles should be trusted on the .458 WM ? Will they hold up to such moderate recoil as that ? That scope weighs 18.5 ounces per spec sheet. Not bad. Geri and Freki both could make sub-10-pound weight with that.
If it is good for a rampaging trannie in a school room, ought to handle about any DG duties well on 1X, and still have 6X available for PG duties.
And the Democraps are still hiding the transexual shooter's manifesto ... I wonder why ?
I’d likely trust illuminated made by Trijicon on our 458’s…. They’ve seemed to got that figured out.
I have an old, discontinued Trijicon 1.25-4x24mm that has a 1" tube and amber triangle aiming point. Good eye relief and light weight. An old review found on the web said it had stood up to .375 H&H and .416 Rigby for 6 years. Owner was so happy he bought a second and lamented the discontinuation.
They now make a 1-4x24mm with 30mm tube, heavier and more expensive, boo hoo, (eye relief 4.8" and weight 14.4 ounces) but lots more reticle options, red, green, amber, G4, duplex, mildots and chevron and horseshoe-topped trees, etc., yippee ! If I do another Trijicon, it might have to be an ACOG with a low mount. Such might exist at Optics Planet. They are very light weight. 3x30mm with high mount only 9.8 ounces. 3x24mm with low mount only 7.9 ounces.
Eye relief reports vary according to source from 1.9" to 3.6" quoted on a 3x30mm, huh ? Civilian versus military models or just typos ?
3.5" eye relief quoted often allows me to use it at a full 5" from my eyeball.
Anyway, Sir Scotty is probably right about the non-electronic, no-battery, dual illumination by Trijicon, with tritium and fiber-optic-piped ambient light ... probably as durable as it gets for "illuminated."
I have several of the Trijcon 1.5-4x24mm scopes all with green posts there on Ruger 77 458 WM, Winchester 70 50 B&M SS, H&R 12 ga. slug gun, T-C muzzleloader plus 2 sitting in boxes new just incase theres a failure or a new gun needing one.... Sure wish Trijcon would bring back the 1.5-4x24mm scope I've even put one on my Excaliber crossbow....
3.5" eye relief quoted often allows me to use it at a full 5" from my eyeball.
Not typos. Some ACOGs have incredibly short eye relief. None have a lot. I found them to be sub optimal on an M4 when work issued them to me, I can't imagine using them on a 458WM, but anything is worth trying. They have grown on me over the years, but...
Not typos. Some ACOGs have incredibly short eye relief. None have a lot. I found them to be sub optimal on an M4 when work issued them to me, I can't imagine using them on a 458WM, but anything is worth trying. They have grown on me over the years, but...
Ouch ! But I am a glutton for punishment. Just have not been able to get to range lately for many reasons ...
Comparisons of twist, throat and barrel-length effects coming up:
Freki the .458 WM 1:10" versus Cabela .458 WM 1:14", both with "24-inch" barrels. Geri short throat .458 WM Special 1:14" versus Cabela SAAMI throated .458 WM 1:14", both with "24-inch" barrels. Freki the .458 WM 1:10" with 24" barrel length versus Toot-Toot .458 B&M+ 1:10" with 17" barrel length: Same case capacity, same throats.
Can briefly report that a 450 grain 0.458” CEB Safari Solid fired from the Ruger Hawkeye African 458 Win Mag at 2400 fps MV breaks the near shoulder of a mid-sized elephant at ~52 yds and exits in a straight line behind the far shoulder. Same performance as the 400 grain 0.423” CEB Safari Solid from a 404 Jeffery at 2500 fps MV.
Hopefully will be able to post details of this tuskless encounter on the Africa forum next week. Details of the 460 G&A’s performance will follow.
"Can briefly report that a 450 grain 0.458” CEB Safari Solid fired from the Ruger Hawkeye African 458 Win Mag at 2400 fps MV breaks the near shoulder of a mid-sized elephant at ~52 yds and exits in a straight line behind the far shoulder ..."
YIPPIE KI-YAY SIR KHULU !!! That elephant died hard. The bards of the Square Table will sing your story forever. Will look up that BC and get an impact velocity. That will be arbitrarily assigned as one unit of elephant penetration for that bullet.
Would add that the 500 g SS CEB BBW#13 fired from the 460 G&A penetrates completely through on frontal and side brain shots as well. Because that is not a bona fide 458 WM I’ll save that report for the ‘Africa ready DGR’ thread on the Africa forum.
If G1 BC = 0.190, that CEB BBW#13 brass FN 450-grainer at 2400 fps MV would be down to 2174 fps at 52 yards, 2183 fps at 50 yards. Lessay that was actually 2400 fps instrumental at 5 yards. Corrected MV = 2422 fps Impact velocity would be 2195 fps at 52 yards, 2203 fps at 50 yards.
Will check the Africa forum here for Sir Khulu's reports.
Robert Ruark would surely feel that way.
I bet he would approve of this too:
Above boy is Sir Jerry at age 3 y.o. He was big for his age. The old man taught him well. Among varmints he took with his .458 were a full bag of African plains game.
Both the 450 gr & 500 gr are corrected MV 2400 fps. Impact distance for the 450 was 52 yds and for the 500 gr it was 30 yds. The roaming of elephants, wind and terrain decide how far we need to shoot.
The 52 yd shot is my longest on ele but a clear shot and the circle dot reticle made the shot, off sticks, ethical and easy.
The 30 yd shot was in fairly thick brush with milling eles around the tuskless and the anticipation of a pass through- as happened - made the use of a Leupold 1-4x duplex reticle quite useful.
The only bullet recovered was a 500 gr Woodleigh Hydroshock fired by my PH from his Win M-70 Classic 458 WM into the 2nd tuskless’ pelvis after it was down from a frontal brain shot. Recovered under the hide on the off side.
Thanks for that Sir Khulu. 50 yards being a long shot on ele is why the call it dangerous game, eh ?
I guess your PH might have been using Federal Premium factory loads if he was shooting the 500-gr HYDRO from a .458 WinMag. Here is a dissection of that load:
I think you had a much better load in your .458 WinMag, your handload. Did you leave some for the PH ? I am guessing Woodleigh made the 500-gr/.458 HYDRO on an exclusive contract with Federal factory ammo maker.
Here is that 500-gr/.458 CEB used in your 460 G&A:
The 500-gr HYDRO without feed cap is 1.525" long, with feed cap about 1.680", too long for my .458 preferences.
At the CEB site here is a 570-gr/.510 brass FN recovered from "elephant shoulder":
I am guessing it came from a .500 NE and probably had MV no more than 2200 fps and would lose about 100 fps for each 25 yards initially. 570-gr/.510 sectional density = 0.313 with greater meplat diameter 500-gr/.458 SD = 0.341 with smaller meplat, for greater "Penetration Index" at similar velocity. No wonder the .510 was recovered and the .458 was not, if we consider similar resistance from a .510 shoulder shot and your .458 head shot ... But if your bullet was impacting at higher velocity it had to overcome a higher initial resistance from the impact media ... Which it did.
If a 220-gr/.458 nubbin left over after the explosion of a 404-gr Shock Hammer can make it to the offside skin of a 3300-lbs giraffe after breaking the onside shoulder, I am betting this special run of 400-gr CEB brass FN might be adequate for elephant:
The BOL is relatively shorter on this one, compared to the 450-gr and 500-gr CEB brass FNs, because the inter-band and nose "bore-riding" minor diameters are increased to .449" instead of the CEB usual of 0.440". Shorter is good for inherent stability and greater net case capacity, of course. Maybe the extra velocity won't go to waste on impact.
The reaction of this year’s 1st tuskless to impact of the 0.458” 450 gr bullet compared to that of the 0.422” 400 gr bullet on last year’s tuskless was markedly different. MV of the 0.422” bullet was 2500 fps vs the 0.458” at 2400.
Bullet placement and trajectory was the same for both bullets - through the near right shoulder, through the ventricle of the heart and exit immediately behind the far left foreleg. Elephant size was very similar as was speed of travel - slow left to right walk. The 0.458” bullet impact point was about 10 yds further from the muzzle.
The ele struck with the 0.422” immediately turned and reversed 180 degrees backtracking about 40-50 yds (est) where we found it. It didn’t stagger, merely turned.
With the 0.458” 450 grain bullet, the ele clearly staggered and almost fell before turning about 60 degrees left before the follow up shot struck. It went about the same distance as the prior ele before falling. Speed and direction of movement up to impact was the same.
The specific phase of the stride seem nearly identical based on trajectory so it appears that the major variables are related to bullet properties. I have seen this stagger and turn once before, on a large bull shot in 2010 at 17 yds with a 570 gr 0.509” CEB BBW #13 fired from a 500 NE 3” with a MV = 2175 fps from the right barrel.
Even though these 3 events represent an observational series rather than a controlled experiment, my conclusion is that the 2 larger diameter large-bore bullets seem to produce a greater effect on an elephant than the heavy-medium class of bullet/cartridge combination.
Open to countervaling opinions based on data and/or information, in the interest of advancing the knowledge base of the Knights of the Square Table.
At the CEB site here is a 570-gr/.510 brass FN recovered from "elephant shoulder":
I am guessing it came from a .500 NE and probably had MV no more than 2200 fps and would lose about 100 fps for each 25 yards initially. 570-gr/.510 sectional density = 0.313 with greater meplat diameter 500-gr/.458 SD = 0.341 with smaller meplat, for greater "Penetration Index" at similar velocity.
Sir Bob,
Could you post that link to the CEB site? I looked through the gallery and couldn’t find it.
Ian curious because the 2nd shot on the bull ele I mentioned previously was a frontal brain shot with precisely this bullet which penetrated next to his right eye, as he turned to his right after the shoulder shot, dropping him. The bullet was recovered after about 3 feet of straight line penetration, from the base of the neck at the shoulder.
I sent CEB a photo of the recovered bullet, as well as an explicitly prepared experiment using the shoulder and humerus of that elephant, wrapped in its hide and fired from about 15 yds. It broke the bone, exited through front and rear layer of hide and buried itself in a mopane tree, many inches deep.
Just as the bullet you posted the frontal shot recovery could easily be reloaded.
At the CEB site here is a 570-gr/.510 brass FN recovered from "elephant shoulder":
I am guessing it came from a .500 NE and probably had MV no more than 2200 fps and would lose about 100 fps for each 25 yards initially. 570-gr/.510 sectional density = 0.313 with greater meplat diameter 500-gr/.458 SD = 0.341 with smaller meplat, for greater "Penetration Index" at similar velocity.
Sir Bob,
Could you post that link to the CEB site? I looked through the gallery and couldn’t find it.
Ian curious because the 2nd shot on the bull ele I mentioned previously was a frontal brain shot with precisely this bullet which penetrated next to his right eye, as he turned to his right after the shoulder shot, dropping him. The bullet was recovered after about 3 feet of straight line penetration, from the base of the neck at the shoulder.
I sent CEB a photo of the recovered bullet, as well as an explicitly prepared experiment using the shoulder and humerus of that elephant, wrapped in its hide and fired from about 15 yds. It broke the bone, exited through front and rear layer of hide and buried itself in a mopane tree, many inches deep.
Just as the bullet you posted the frontal shot recovery could easily be reloaded.
Dear Sir, I take it that your reference is to Sir Ron, so I expect him to show up shortly with the answer to your request.
Apologies to all, especially to you and Sir Ron for the breach in knightly etiquette.
Of course I was referring to Sir Ron. Wrote that note from an airport at the tail end of a very long journey back home and the old processor was not functioning quite up to specs.
Sir Khulu, I am honored to be addressed as Sir Bob in your Freudian slip, Ron will do. You are quite experienced as an elephant hunter. Good to have your input at the Square Table, where the .458 Winchester Magnum gets a square deal.
There is no link, known to me, other than the picture of recovered bullet found here:
Maybe it is a photo of a bullet recovered by you ? Within the realm of possibility as you did recover the angling frontal brain/facial-shot 570-gr/.510 bullet from the elephant's base of neck at off-side shoulder. CEB simplified the legend/label on photo ? They use the same photo as an illustration with the .458 brass FN bullets too. Easier to recover a .510-caliber than a .458-caliber CEB brass FN on elephant, I reckon.
I would never swap my 416 Rem M70 for the same in 458 Win.
Originally Posted by RinB
EdM I’m with you R
Just sour grapes or recoil shy ?
Originally Posted by jwp475
Never swap, acquire both
Amen, Sir John. The only .416 Rem. Mag. I have on hand is one of the Winchester M70 Big Five rifles with a gold cape buffalo adorning the floor plate. My other M70 Classic .416 RemMag got rebarreled to .458 WinMag, I call her Marcella, sub-8 pounds bare weight. The .458 thump is so much more pleasing on both ends than a .416, and the .458 WinMag is the most versatile sporting rifle of all time, from sub-Trapdoor level loads (paper-patched-BP, FN cast or VLD jacketed subsonic smokeless loads, etc.) to supersonics at .45-70 levels or leaving the .458 Lott in the dust. The 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer with BC of .419 and MV of +2500 fps leaves nothing to be desired for any game not requiring a solid bullet.
The .458 WinMag does not require a SAAMI MAP of 65,000 psi like the .416 RemMag, bless its heart.
I have kept some other .416-caliber rifles on hand too, just for fun: .416 Taylor .416 Ruger .416 Dakota .416 Rigby .416 Weatherby Magnum .416 Barrett
I will never swap my .458 Win Mag for anything. Period. In fact, I've already written my last blog - but it will only appear at the right time, when I'm ready to "pack it in". The title is: "Why my .458 Winchester Magnum will be the last to go".
In the meantime I'll play with some other toys, but NEVER with the intention of "substitution"! As I've written too many times already: "The .458 Winchester Magnum is the most versatile rifle extant". Offensive? So be it! I've handloaded a majority of common cartridges from .22 Hornet to .458 Win Mag... Line 'em all up, and if I could only have one, knowing what I do now know, it would be a .458 Winchester Magnum... being a handloader. I've knowingly picked the .45-70 and .458 Win as my BIG BORES, not something less or more.
I started reading this thread out of curiosity and it pushed me to search out a 458 WM. I now have a late 70’s vintage ruger 77RS tang safety enroute to my ffl. Hopefully I didn’t make a bad choice there.
My plan is to use a 400-450 for everything as I’m planning to use the 300 tsx in my 375 so will go a bit heavier here.
Looks like I better start researching this thread further for load ideas but if anyone has a good one I would appreciate the guidance.
The pictured tasco will come off immediately as I have a vari-x 1.75-6x32 sitting loose that will get the call atleast for now.
I started reading this thread out of curiosity and it pushed me to search out a 458 WM. I now have a late 70’s vintage ruger 77RS tang safety enroute to my ffl. Hopefully I didn’t make a bad choice there.
My plan is to use a 400-450 for everything as I’m planning to use the 300 tsx in my 375 so will go a bit heavier here.
Looks like I better start researching this thread further for load ideas but if anyone has a good one I would appreciate the guidance.
The pictured tasco will come off immediately as I have a vari-x 1.75-6x32 sitting loose that will get the call atleast for now.
(bigger picture needed)
MallardAddict, Welcome to the Square Table, pick your Sir Name for Knighthood.
Great rifle and scope combo you are getting set up there. I am saving an old Leupold 1.75-6X36mm ER with heavy duplex reticle for a .458 WM too. That is another ideal .458 scope for one and done.
What powder and what bullet weight to start with ? If you are leaving it to me to specify: AA-2230 at 72.0 to 80.0 grains with any 400-ish grainer, and any COL you like.
The .458 WinMag is probably the most versatile cartridge in the world for loading. About any fast to medium burn rate powder and any bullet from 250-gr to 600-gr (or heavier, just for kicks) can be used in the .458 WinMag in some excellent combination. Any powder good in a .223/5.56 will be outstanding in the .458 WinMag. Just pick one and go to town with it.
Got any preferences ?
Just kidding. With all the lies told against the .458 Winchester Magnum, a little levity in this vein is only fair.
Will be trying Winchester STABALL with some 528-gr Lehighs for supersonic in "Tootsie" the .458 B&M+ of 1:10" twist with 17" barrel length (16.9" actual). She has same case capacity and throat as the .458 WinMag. Same loads can then be tried in Freki the .458 WM (24.25" barrel length, 1:10" twist). Both barrels are Pac-Nor, #5 Sporter on Freki, #4 sporter on Tootsie. Both have Near Mfg rails and interchangeable scopes. This will give another check on how shortening from 24" to 17" affects MV, this time with a heavier bullet and slower powder, ought to be a wash, about the same as with a lighter bullet and a faster powder, and this time with same twist. The difference between 1:10" and 1:14" is near insignificant, of course. 1:10" might be of use with the subsonic-suppressed plinking with the long bullets. Here is 1:10" twist Tootsie:
Tootsie makes a better sleeping-tent/latrine rifle with a little red-dot on her rail, or maybe a little flashlight and laser needs to be hung at the forend tip, like on Ol'Fugly.
You know, the SAAMI standard twist for the .458 Lott is 1:10" twist. It should not make much difference, but it does cause slightly higher pressures/lower velocities than the 1:14" twist. That is part of the reason a .458 WinMag can do 2250 fps with 500-grainers at 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi, whereas the .458 Lott, bless its heart, can only do 2300 fps with 500-grainer at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi. Freki with 1:10" twist and SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber/throat will not suffer in comparison to a SAAMI .458 Lott. This is Freki:
Geri with 1:14" twist has same 24.25" barrel length as Freki, but Geri has a throat that is 0.2" shorter than SAAMI. Comparing Freki to Geri with standard .458 WinMag Hornady factory loads ought to show Geri to be the faster rifle. Freki will lose a little velocity to both longer throat and faster twist, for same factory load. Here is predicted winner on MV, Geri:
Adding the scope caps and with both Freki and Geri wearing same scopes (different rings and bases) they both weigh about 9#3oz as shown here. Freki: #5 Pac-Nor Geri: #5A Douglas (?) has a little heavier barrel contour, Tootsie weighs about 8#9oz as shown above, #4 Pac-Nor cut to 16.9" length, and a few ounces heavier of scope. All of that is on my Gander Mountain meat scale so not exact but pretty close. All three rifles have 0.458" groove diameter.
Two other .458 WinMag rifles are available for comparison, both with 0.458" groove diameter: McGowen-barreled 23" length, 1:14" twist SAAMI chamber/throat and a Winchester factory M70 (FN/SC) with 23.75" barrel length, 1:14" twist.
After seeing you sing the praises of the B&C Medalist stocks, I’m considering one as a rough country alternative for my wood stock in the Win M-70 460 G&A - the acacia and dense mopane are the best sandpaper to inflict fine scratches on the buttstock.
Also thinking about one for whatever 0.458” wildcat iteration the Ruger #1 416 Rigby chambered barrel, currently stacked on the workbench, assumes in the next DGR.
Sir Khulu, The B&C stock for the Ruger M77 Mk II/Hawkeye is a relatively new thing. They make it with a big barrel channel that easily accepted a #5 Shilen Sporter. You won't have to do much sanding to fit a fat .458 barrel. They call it a "free-float magnum" barrel channel, 2.0 lbs stock weight, 13.625" LOP with 1" Decelerator.
I had to sand the B&C Win M70 Short/WSM stock quite a bit to get a #4 Pac-Nor Sporter to fit, 2.25 lbs approx. stock weight, 13.625" LOP with 1" Decelerator.
The B&C Win M70 Long Action had a little bigger barrel channel, about a drop-in for #4 McGowen Sporter, 2.0 lbs stock weight, 13.75" LOP with 1" Decelerator.
The B&C CZ 550 Magnum stock is a drop-in fit for the factory contour, same on all, .375, .416, .458. 2.5 lbs stock weight, 14.125" LOP, aluminum endoskeleton runs from rear of grip through forend tip sling stud attachment. I sanded one of these out to fit a McGowen barrel made to Pac-Nor #6 Sporter contour with shortened breech cylinder/knoxform:
Grip circumference on the CZ 550 Magnum palm swell is just a smidge bigger than that on the Ruger M77 and Winchester M70 models. I like that Ruger M77 MkII/Hawkeye stock just fine.
Here is the B&C Medalist used on the Winchester M70 Extreme Weather (FN/SC) in .338 WinMag, factory rifle.
I can vouch for the aluminum alloy bedding block extending all the way to forend tip on the CZ 550 Magnum model. I had to cut through it to sink the barrel lug on that .500 Mbogo above.
This makes me wonder if the tang-safety Ruger M77 African had same bedding system as the first model Ruger M77 Magnum MkII aka RSM Generation-One ? I never owned one of those, tang-safety M77 Africans, I am sad to say. MallardAddict is going to need to have a look at his bedding when he gets the rifle. I hope he can take some photos to post here.
I am guessing it might have some similarities to this prior to a glass bedding job, Gen-1 and Gen-2 RSMs:
Gen-3 glass bedded, same would be done for Gen-2 with fatter barrel:
(Actual angle on the Ruger front action screw is not 45*, I forgot what it is, but the point is, it is not a 90* straight up angle.)
So, does the tang-safety African .458 WinMag have the standard recoil lug on the action, or does it have one of those cantilevered recoil plates in the forearm ?
I would love to remodel a B&C M77 MkII stock to fit a tang-safety African .458 WinMag. I will do the work on that job, as long as I get to keep the rifle. Heh-heh-heh.
The other, older Medalists I have tried and liked, not as much write-up on them at the B&C site, the newer Ruger stock got special treatment on the torquing instructions:
In response to your question, “So, does the tang-safety African .458 WinMag have the standard recoil lug on the action, or does it have one of those cantilevered recoil plates in the forearm ?” the Ruger M-77 TS 458 WM, indeed has a version of the steel forend flat bar/integral recoil lug/angled front action screw arrangement that was later used in the RSM. I have not compared measurements of the steel recoil systems in the TS and RSM. I plan to do that at some point just to know. I suspect that the RSM recoil bar/foreend lug evolved from the TS 458 WM.
Without the intact system in place the RSM will split the stock on the first shot, at least in 450 Rigby @ 2400 fps - don’t ask me how I know. Fortunately Numrich still carries 2 versions (Gens 1 & 3) of the RSM stock but not the recoil bar. My current RSM is a Gen 2 stock.
Sir Khulu, Thanks for confirming that. The M77 TS African bedding system went on to become the RSM Gen-1 system.
That is actually a more robust system than came on the later Gen-2 and Gen-3, since the barrel-banded sling stud had a secondary recoil lug built into it, embedded in stock forward of the cantilevered primary recoil lug.
I can well imagine the result of shooting an RSM-2 or RSM-3 without the recoil lug contraption in the stock. No recoil lug at all. One could put a Kimber Caprivi/Rem M700 type washer recoil lug on it and get rid of the contraption. But that RSM-2/3 single lug set up was extremely accurate. My .416 Rigby RSM-2 never cracked its stock, knock wood.
My Gen-2 version .416 Rigby shot so well as it came out of the box, I never messed with it. I just kept screws tight to no more than 65 inch-pounds, being a weakling, that is about all I can do with a Fat Wrench screwdriver. I only tested one powder charge with a half dozen bullets ranging from 380 grains to 410 grains, all in one session, 3 shots with each bullet, and settled on a load that afternoon, for my first safari in 2001. All the bullets were accurate enough, roughly zeroed to check a 3-shot group at 115 yards. Hey, the bulldozer driver was either drunk or confused on meters versus yards when he made a first attempt at a 100-yard berm at the public range. Choice load, same powder charge as John Buhmiller and Jack O'Connor liked for 400-grainers:
Corrected to MV, that would be closer to about 2530 fps, 2509 fps instrumental.
Here is the rifle that did it with a 1.5-5x20mm Leupold in Ruger rings:
About the buffalo taken with that .416 Rigby, even though the .458 WinMag would have made me happier:
One shot, broke his left shoulder and his heart and exited offside ribs, he ran 50 yards and fell, gave the death bellow promptly in the mopane of Botswana's Okavango. PH Ronnie McFarlane (supervising my Appy PH) gladly took my spare ammo off my hands when I left. He had an original John Rigby & Co. .416 Rigby he was using for backup on elephant. Hopefully it found good use for him. While I was there, his client made a bespoke .500 NE H&H Royal fire both barrels at once, and the elephant still died.
The RSM has a weird bedding system, but it is prone to excellent accuracy.
Stuart Ottesen, THE BOLT ACTION Volume II, page 139, about the Ruger Model 77 (tang safety), said this:
"While the recoil lug under the receiver ring is relatively small, optimum advantage is gained from what cross sectional surface it does have. The patented front guard screw works on a rearward diagonal of thirty degrees to physically draw the lug back into full contact with the stock."
Thus also is the cantilevered recoil plate of the M77 TS .458 WinMag "African" and all the RSMs, bearing the primary recoil lug, snugged into full contact when that 30* rearward diagonal screw is tightened. Angle in front of that screw is 30* from perpendicular, viewed from the side, screw tilting rearward.
Thus also is the cantilevered recoil plate of the M77 TS .458 WinMag "African" and all the RSMs, bearing the primary recoil lug, snugged into full contact when that 30* rearward diagonal screw is tightened. Angle in front of that screw is 30* from perpendicular, viewed from the side, screw tilting rearward.
That's a description of my first .458 Winchester Magnum: a Ruger M77 TS. I should have kept it.
I would never trade my 416 Rem M70 for a 458 Win. There is no comparison in versatility.
Sir EdM,
Would you like to elaborate on that since this is a thread on "The Great .458 Winchester Magnum...", and some of us believe a fair comparison could be attempted but that, all things considered, the .458 Win would win! I've already done such comparisons in an unbiased manner - no axe to grind - and have concluded that the .458 is the best all-around, given the choice of bullets from 250gr to 600, and at any speed possible from black powder vintage to today's best.
I would never trade my 416 Rem M70 for a 458 Win. There is no comparison in versatility.
Sir EdM,
Would you like to elaborate on that since this is a thread on "The Great .458 Winchester Magnum...", and some of us believe a fair comparison could be attempted but that, all things considered, the .458 Win would win! I've already done such comparisons in an unbiased manner - no axe to grind - and have concluded that the .458 is the best all-around, given the choice of bullets from 250gr to 600, and at any speed possible from black powder vintage to today's best.
I want to qualify some of the above: I'm certainly not assuming that all on this thread believe as I do, but "some", and I think that would include Sir Ron. But my conclusions are not arrived at by feelings or emotions, but by facts. I'm very "hard-nose" in being objective. Some of my .458 Win loads are equivalent to BP loads: less than 2500 ft-lbs, while others are up to 6000+ ft-lbs: a 350gr TSX at 2780 fps/6005 ft-lbs as one example, etc, with dozens of loads in between.
And a lot of that has to do with the SAAMI "free bore" of the .458 Win Mag which easily makes it equivalent to or better than the .458 Lott.
As a dyed in the wool fan of the 404s, it is difficult for me to assert that there is a better ALTERNATIVE DGR caliber. However, after working fairly extensively now with the 458 WM (both standard and +) I will give the 'devil' his due and recognize both the versatility of the 458 WM(+) and the apparently greater effect of the larger diameter bullet, exerting higher KE/power based on a balance of velocity and projectile mass.
Undoubtedly the 404s I've routinely used (404/375 Ruger, 404 Jeffery) are powerful DGR cartridges and MAY confer a bit greater range vs the 450-500 grain 0.458" bullets I use in my 45 DGRs (458 WM & +, 460 G&A, 450 Rigby Rimless), but bullet weight selection in the 45s and greater close-in power rebalance the scales.
I am happy with both the 45 and 404 DGRs. I use a couple of 416s (Rem Mag & Rigby) but not sufficiently to comment on their efficacy. It would seem that functional differences between the 416s and 404s would be more a matter of preference than actual objective reasoning. YMMV
Amen to Sir Bob and Sir Khulu. Knave EdM is spouting juvenile comments again, just does not play well with others.
The idea that a .416 RemMag is more versatile than a .458 WinMag is just ludicrous. As well as the smokeless loads from sub-Trapdoor to super-Lott levels as Sir Bob pointed to, remember the BP and paper-patched loads, shot capsule loads for snakes (single or double .45LC), single or triple PC-painted .457" round-ball "buck shot" loads, etc. Let alone the supreme 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2500 fps in any rifle made for SAAMI .458 WinMag.
The variety of .45-cal projectiles alone beats any .416 handily.
I like the .404 Jeffery too, have used it on bull bison. Even have a .423/.416 Rigby wildcat I call the "404 RIP" (Rigby Improved Plus). It is obvious. None of them can hold a candle to the .458 Winchester Magnum which shines like the sun.
got back from Africa 2 weeks ago so I have to get in gear and post a full report but need to figure out how to post pictures as I am a dork when it comes to doing things on the computer. but here is how the cape buff hunt went with my 458 plus P. 404 gr shock Hammer bullet 80 gr AA2230 for 2460 fps. came across the buff standing looking at me with death on his face at about 20 yards PH said shoot him, put a bullet in the left shoulder that went thru the heart we found out later and he spun and ran about 50 feet and went down, got behind him and put the insurance shot between the shoulders and done. neither bullet was recovered. this was a plains game hunt with a cow buff on the plate for 3000 but the Safari owner said if we could come up with an old bull broken horn or not wide I could take him for 5000 instead of the normal 8500 he quoted months ago. I did not tape him but I would say he was about 38 inches but the boss was a good 14 plus inches, wide huge bull. we guessed his weight at about 17-1800 pounds and he was very old probably his last year, a great animal. also took Sable, Kudu, Zebra, and 2 huge warthogs was a great trip to the East Cape
For clarification on the not recovered bullets, were they exits ? Or not pass throughs and the bullets were not found during the processing?
I see from a post on another forum, both shots were definitely exits. Outstanding bullet performance, and outstanding buffalo and other animals. Great pictures!
Speed trial today with Hornady Superformance 500-gr DGX factory load for .458 WinMag, 11 shots with each rifle chronographed at 5 yards, targeted at 50 yards on a very windy day, after the rain let up.
Temperature = 86 degrees F
both rifles have 24.25" barrel length and 0.458" groove diameter
Geri has 1:14" twist and a throat with 0.200" less free-travel than SAAMI standard, so Geri has 0.4725" slug jump for .458-cal slug
11-shot mean = 2183.2 fps instrumental, St.Dev. = 11.4 fps
Freki has 1:10" twist and a SAAMI throat with 0.6725" slug jump for a .458-cal. slug
11-shot mean = 2132.5 fps instrumental, St.Dev. = 8.18 fps
The .461"/407-gr cast bullet shown below, beside the DGX load, will not chamber in Geri, bolt won't close, jammed into lands. It fits into Freki, but not tested in 1:10" twist which is deemed too fast for cast. Maybe next time when the wind is not blowing so hard, just for fun.
1:10" twist does not have much effect on velocity or pressure in a SAAMI-throated .458 WinMag. Correct the instrumental velocity to MV and the 1:10" twist makes the Hornady-advertised 2140 fps quite easily, just like many other 1:14" twist SAAMI .458 WinMags of .458" to .459" groove diameter and 24" barrel length.
Shortening the throat by 0.200" (to what is still about twice as long as the .458 Lott throat) has a greater effect on pressure and velocity.
Beware, perfectly good .458 WM+ loads may be too much for safety in the SAAMI .458 Lott.
I was just getting velocities today, no groups to write home about, with wind and rain and limited time, for initial scope/bore sighting and getting on paper, first time for me with each rifle. Identical scopes and rifle weights for both rifles. But, it is looking like Geri might be more accurate than Freki with the 500-gr DGX, at 50 yard target. Maybe that is because Geri was well broken in by Sir Jerry, with 500-gr TBSS at +2300 fps.
After action report: After bore sighting each rifle, two shots were fired on paper at 50 yards to get initial scope adjustments.
Then the next three shots from each rifle were shot at a 50-yard target, shown below.
Geri is 51 fps faster than Freki using same ammo and same barrel length. Different throats and different twist rates for each of these .458 WM Special rifles.
Groups were too-variable-wind-aided to be called groups, even at 50 yards. Chronograph was blown over onto ground one time during this joyful outing, just as I was about to hang a sandbag beneath the tripod. No harm, just a foul wind.
Do you know whether the Hornady 500 grain DGS ammo is factory loaded with Superformance powder?
Had an interesting discussion with my Zim PH a few weeks ago about the Win M-70 Classic 458 WM he carries routinely for backup. This was in reference to elephants.
He prefers Woodleigh Hydroshock 500 grain solids but tells me that the new Hornady 500 DGS works very well and provides very good straight line penetration. He distinguished the performance of the new DGS from prior iterations of same as a marked improvement.
Sir Khulu, The older Hornady solid bullets: After the 500-gr RN steel-jacketed FMJ "solid" of yore they briefly tried an encapsulated 500-grainer that had brass/bronze outer coat at 2260 fps MV, "Heavy Magnum" loads. That may have been a RN with brass over steel and lead core. That experiment is the one I read about using "Superformance" powder and a proprietary loading technique. Huh ? Did they mean a drop tube and a compressed load ? Anyway, those did not do well. Solids would not track straight, fish-tailed and flattened their hind ends, and the RNSP paired with it simply could not handle 2260 fps MV.
The latest iterations as the Dangerous Game Solid (DGS) has a good-sized flat meplat and ogive leading up to it, pretty good at feeding. Very thick steel meplat with a wash of copper or gilding metal over it. Performs well as a solid. The Dangerous Game eXpanding soft nose-- DGX -- was not bonded at first, now is. Steel jacket bonded to lead core with copper/gilding wash on jacket: "DGX-Bonded" they now call it. Flat meplat of lead bonded to a tapering steel jacket makes it a solid-performing soft. Ain't gonna explode or lose its core. Steel base of that bullet is thick and solid.
In .458-caliber, Hornady has finally made good DG soft and solid bullets on their third try. 480-gr and 500-grain pairs for 450 NE and .458 WM. The noses are short enough to fit into even the magazine-length-challenged .458 Lott without having to trim the .458 Lott brass shorter, as must be done with the Barnes Banded Solids. These bullets leave room to spare for fitting into the SAAMI .458 WinMag magazine length when using the factory cannelures.
The powder they are loaded with as "Superformance" Dangerous Game loads is by my SWAG AA-2230 or something very like it. It's a ball powder with about half the spherical grains flattened into oblate spheroidal. The DGX-Bonded bullet (1.390") is slightly longer than the DGS bullet (1.380"). And the DGX is seated slightly deeper than the DGS to boot. DGX COL is 3.265": used 70.0 gr powder DGS COL is 3.280": used 72.1 gr powder So, there is (0.010" + 0.015")X(41.66grH2O/In) lesser net case capacity in the DGX load = 1.04 gr H2O. 2 grains less powder for 1 grain less case net water gave both bullets of same weight about same velocity ? Oh yeah, that pressure lowering throat requires more powder than expected to get pressure up.
Sir John posted this on page 138 of this thread. I can only say these came from a close range impact of the 480-gr/.458 DGX and two DGS solids with a huge DG animal, body shots.
Originally Posted by jwp475
Recovered DGS & DGX from Sir Jerry's 500-450 Holland &Holland Royal velocity was 2150 FPS
The 25" Shilen was not as fast as the 24.25" barrels of Geri and Freki with the factory loads, different rifles different conditions, and different measurements of powder on the dissections: Variances by me or by the ammo ? Anyway, close enough for horseshoes:
Agree with your findings that with the DGX-Bonded near 2300 fps is quite achievable.
I have not tried that combination but in the Ruger Hawkeye 458 WM+ with nominal 24” barrel the CEB BBW #13 450 gn Safari Solid + 80 gns AA-2230 and the Federal 215 primer produces 2375 fps (corrected MV = 2400 KE = 5756). This barrel has the SAAMI spec chamber throat and the action accommodates a 3.480” COAL in the MK II OEM magazine.
Elephant fodder in any company including the Lott & Rigby variants. No need to suffer from further recoil in reasonable weight rifles when these MV/KE levels will do admirably because in any land dwelling DG - other than a Botswana-type elephant bull - any excess KE will only serve to disrupt air flow on the far side of the target.
Sir Khulu, Great to hear that your chimera of Ruger Hawkeye action and Ruger No. 1 barrel can handle 3.48" COL. No problem at all with +2300 fps and 480-grainers in that .458 WM+. I will post some data reviewing results from a factory Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag, 24", 1:14" that are +2400 fps with longer COL. Even the 500-gr TBSS beats 2400 fps MV, and that data is with Lab Radar, for MV and 100 yard velocities, no BC correction required, allows estimating G1 BC for comparison to claims.
Asante sana-sana, Sir Bob and Sir Dennis. I just got back from a road trip to the National SAR commemoration of the Battle of Blue Licks, last battle of the Revolutionary War in Kentucky, August 19, 1782. The superior British force of Canadians and Indians massacred the Kentuckians. Daniel Boone's son Israel got an arrow through the neck and died there on the banks of the Licking River. Yes, we took a licking there. Daniel Boone escaped and returned a few days later to bury the dead, including his son. Daniel Boone called his rifle "Tick Licker" 'cause it could lick a tick off a hound at 100 yards. Daniel Boone took a lot of lickings and kept on ticking. Just like has happened to the reputation of the .458 Winchester Magnum. There now, we are back on topic.
Rather than post some more notecard scribblings, here is the skinny on a comparison of W-W Super "White Box" ammo to the latest Hornady factory ammo by Lab Radar with the 24" Ruger No.1, 80 degrees F, same day and same rifle as used for the 83.0-gr AA-2460 handloads above.
510-gr RNSP Winchester W-W Super .458 WM, COL = 3.330", advertised MV = 2040 fps Lab Radar: MV = 2035.3 fps 100 yards = 1804.7 fps Factory claimed G1 BC =0.284 Calculated G1 BC = 0.316
The W-W ammo was over 20 years old, and the Hornady just a few years old, both having recently come off a local emporium shelf. They both seemed to keep pretty good. Nowhere near as bad as the Lottites would have us believe.
Funny how Winchester caved to the lies and downloaded the ammo. The original 1956 ammo was about equal to the Hornady load for MV with the W-W 500-gr RN FMJ. Bullets are better nowadays. Powders are better. Many great choices for handloads, and several good factory loads have been produced in the recent past, in this century and last.
The Hornady DGX-Bonded 500-gr .458 WM factory ammo also does an honest 2140 fps. I bet it works as well as Sir Jerry's 480-gr DGX-Bonded handload at 2150 fps from his 500/450 NE H&H Royal. Recovered from thick-skinned DG weighing in the tons:
Water trap recovery of same bullet, same handload recipe, by Sir Jerry:
You really do not have to load this 480-gr bullet to +2400 fps in the .458 WM+, but you can if you want to.
Those factory loads showing 2035 fps and 2140 fps for the W-W and Hornady ammo do add credibility to the +2400 fps for the .458 WM+ handloads from same rifle, same day. Seems like Lab Radar is pretty trustworthy.
AA-2460 is a great powder for loading in longer COLs. AA-2230 is a great powder for loading in shorter COLs, AA-2230 is like pre-squashed AA-2460, easier to pack in a smaller case capacity. So many other good ball powders and stick powders too are super performers in the .458 WM+/-.
Sir Ron i was able the get 2500 FPS with the 404 Hammer in a 458 Win mag with AA2230 at 3.380 COL in an Interarms MarkX and 2298 with the 480 DGS
Sir John, Just about exactly what I do, except I am now going to recommend only the DGX-Bonded 480-gr and 500-gr bullets, not DGS I am forgetting the DGS after considering Michael McCourry's testing at MIB. Stick to monometal FN solids like the CEB and North Fork if you can get them. The dang Hornady bullets are 2 dollars or more each, not just cheap plinkers as they used to be. DGX-Bonded GOOD. DGS not so good: CEB brass FN solids cost less and are as good as it gets for solid performance. The .458/450-gr CEB Safari Solid at +2300 fps from a .458 WM+ cannot be beat. Ditto 400-gr @ +2400 fps.
Of course the 404-gr Shock Hammer obsoletes every other soft in .458 WM+, loaded like Sir John does it.
I believe this to be the failed second generation Hornady "solid," aka "Encapsulated Solid," used briefly in "Heavy Magnum" factory loads circa 2006. This one was reportedly recovered from an elephant and has been circulated at many web sites during this century.
See next post for some observations on the "Encapsulated Solid" bullet construction.
The DGS is the third generation of Hornady solids. It is an improvement, but ... In MIB tests it performed unreliably, sometimes penetrating as well as a CEB brass FN, sometimes not.
Our SWAG is that the meplat diameter is marginal at about 60% of caliber on the DGS. 67% to 68% is the optimal meplat based on results with CEB (brass) and North Fork (copper) monometals, both of which are big-boringly reliable for solid performance.
If the DGS swerves it fishtails, can flatten its tail and stop short and off course. Very disturbing, this, from an elephant shoulder:
Amazing that such a thick steel jacket around the lead core in the tail can flatten like that.
Remember, DGS not so good. DGX-Bonded good. CEB Safari Solid best solid. 404-gr Shock Hammer best soft.
Q: What is the Hornady factory DGS ammo for .458 WinMag good for ? A: Checking chronographs for reliability.
In my limited experience with elephants (1 bull and 4 tuskless) the CEB BBW #13 SS penetrates in straight line fashion and breaks whatever bone is needed along its path.
This based on the 0.510” 570 gn @ 2175 fps, 0.423” 400 gn @ 2500 fps, 0.458” 450 gn and 500 gn both @ 2400 fps - all brass Safari Solids. Haven’t felt a need to try any other solids for elephants but I know that a few others may work as well.
My 458WM arrived today. It’s nothing fancy, just a Ruger 77 RS ‘79 model that looks unfired. Scope is an older vari-x iii 1.75-6x32 that’s been through the custom shop for a heavy duplex reticle. I’ve got 300 PCs of virgin Win brass and (150) 450gr tsx and lots of cfe-223 to get me started.
Being that it’s a shorter action I doubt I can shoot the hotter loads that some of you guys are but should be fun anyways for elk and bears in the timber here.
My 458WM arrived today. It’s nothing fancy, just a Ruger 77 RS ‘79 model that looks unfired. Scope is an older vari-x iii 1.75-6x32 that’s been through the custom shop for a heavy duplex reticle. I’ve got 300 PCs of virgin Win brass and (150) 450gr tsx and lots of cfe-223 to get me started.
Being that it’s a shorter action I doubt I can shoot the hotter loads that some of you guys are but should be fun anyways for elk and bears in the timber here.
I just acquired one just like that :-) I've been loading on the light side of things - 45-70 level loads. Haven't even shot it yet!
My 458WM arrived today. It’s nothing fancy, just a Ruger 77 RS ‘79 model that looks unfired. Scope is an older vari-x iii 1.75-6x32 that’s been through the custom shop for a heavy duplex reticle. I’ve got 300 PCs of virgin Win brass and (150) 450gr tsx and lots of cfe-223 to get me started.
Being that it’s a shorter action I doubt I can shoot the hotter loads that some of you guys are but should be fun anyways for elk and bears in the timber here.
MallardAddict,
Like Sir Larry said, 3.38" COL and 2500 fps with the 404-gr Shock Hammer makes your rifle a 300-yard Elk Killer.
You need a Sir Name for The .458 Winchester Magnum Square Table. Knighthood awaits you. We have a Sir Larry already, but no "Sir Curly" nor "Sir Moe." Come on man, humor us and pick any Sir Name you like, we will just try to avoid duplications, but if a Sir Name is already taken that you insist upon, we can add "The Second" or "Of (insert locale)," etc.
My 458WM arrived today. It’s nothing fancy, just a Ruger 77 RS ‘79 model that looks unfired. Scope is an older vari-x iii 1.75-6x32 that’s been through the custom shop for a heavy duplex reticle. I’ve got 300 PCs of virgin Win brass and (150) 450gr tsx and lots of cfe-223 to get me started.
Being that it’s a shorter action I doubt I can shoot the hotter loads that some of you guys are but should be fun anyways for elk and bears in the timber here.
I just acquired one just like that :-) I've been loading on the light side of things - 45-70 level loads. Haven't even shot it yet!
Sir Thomas, Good man ! Life happens. I need to shoot some more too, most fun whenever it happens.
I have this old .470 Capstick that would make a nice .458 WM+ by re-barreling:
I might be able to reduce this 10.75-pounder to a 9-pounder with the proper barrel. Even lighter if a B&C stock is used, with the proper barrel for balance. Alas, since it was made to feed well with .470 Capstick, I need to try .458 WM+ dummies first ... make sure it retains and feeds. Anyway, here is a walnut stock bedding example that is recommended for the .458 WM+, more powerful than a SAAMI .458 Lott. Marine-Tex done by an excellent gunsmith:
The only thing this stock lacks is a grip bolt of steel allthread inserted under the grip cap and angled toward the rear pillar, embedded in epoxy:
Sir Matt, Save the H4198, best for 250-350-grainers. CFE-223 is excellent with 500-grainers. Should be about perfect for the excellent 450-gr TSX too. Will review my data after domestic chores are done.
Sir Matt, Save the H4198, best for 250-350-grainers. CFE-223 is excellent with 500-grainers. Should be about perfect for the excellent 450-gr TSX too. Will review my data after domestic chores are done.
I don't have any load data for CFE223 in the 458 Win mag, but I have a lot of it
Is it literally a matter of a new barrel if one has a M70 NH Classic 300 Win Mag?
Should be all it takes. I did that to a 7mm RemMag, and it fed fine as frog hair, a .300 WinMag ought to do as well or better. Glad to do it to a 7mmRemMag, would hesitate on a .300 WinMag merely out of loyalty to the WinMag line.
Sir Matt, Save the H4198, best for 250-350-grainers. CFE-223 is excellent with 500-grainers. Should be about perfect for the excellent 450-gr TSX too. Will review my data after domestic chores are done.
I don't have any load data for CFE223 in the 458 Win mag, but I have a lot of it
Oh yeah ... The 450-gr TSX is a great bullet if you do not have a 404-gr Shock Hammer. I still have not beaten AA-2230 and AA-2460 with either of those bullets for top speed, though there are many powders yet to be tried. Heavily compressed H4895 might do it, but that is a bit of a bother. Other powders can clean the bore and might be more temperature independent, and the ball powders do pack better, etc. Really, anymore than 2300 fps MV with 450-grainers is gravy anyway. That might be possible with CFE 223, and I hope Sir Matt will try it and report here on chronograph results ...
Here is a medium speed load with compressed H4895 and the 450-gr TSX, loaded with long COL, so seating depth is about like the Hornady RNSN above:
Compare the Alliant Varmint powder to CFE 223, both with same rifle, same day, same 500-gr RNSN at 3.480" COL, Varmint is faster with less powder too.
Here is a list of my favorite powders for the .458 WinMag, add to this Winchester STABALL MATCH with about same burn rate as Win 748 (#137) which is on the slower side, close to CFE 223 in the list:
CFE 223 is a super powder in cartridges like the 400 Whelen with heavy bullets. Here is a Sir Jerry load:
CFE 223 might be the powder to use for 600-gr and heavier (!) bullets in the .458 WinMag.
If you load the 450-gr TSX to short COL about 3.340" you ought to have room for about 65.0 grains of CFE-223 without compression. I say start there and work up to no more than 105% Loading Ratio/Net Fill. Use a drop tube like Sir Jerry did in the 400 Whelen. He got 68.0 grains of powder in the smaller case with a similar COL and seating depth relationship!
Please do tell of any results with CFE 223, please. I'll add it to my list of loads to try with 450-gr TSX.
BENCHMARK might be a good one for 400 to 500-grainers. It has about best ThermoBallisticIndependence from overall take on published trials. It would be good to make up a load that gave about 2150 fps with 500-grainer 2250 fps with 450-grainer 2400 fps with 400-grainer from a "standard .458 WinMag rifle." Benchmark Loads, pun intended. Used as standard measuring sticks for comparing MV of different rifles of whatever barrel length/twist/groove/etc. at whatever temperature.
Sir Ron I'm loading 77 grains of AA2230 behind the 450 TSX at 3.380 COAL
And getting right near 2300 fps MV, great load, Sir John. Works in any standard aught-six-length mag box I know of. Loading longer COL you have to add more powder and pay the price.
2300 fps MV with a 450-grain CEB brass FN zips through elephant or 10 feet of bison, when shot inside of 50 yards. (I am guesstimating 5 feet of MIB test medium equals 10 feet of bison, from tail to throat.)
A 450-gr TSX at 2300 fps Mv would be a longer range option, almost as good as a 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2500 fps MV, maybe 2600 fps MV to push the envelope.
Sir Ron I'm loading 77 grains of AA2230 behind the 450 TSX at 3.380 COAL
And getting right near 2300 fps MV, great load, Sir John. Works in any standard aught-six-length mag box I know of. Loading longer COL you have to add more powder and pay the price.
2300 fps MV with a 450-grain CEB brass FN zips through elephant or 10 feet of bison, when shot inside of 50 yards. (I am guesstimating 5 feet of MIB test medium equals 10 feet of bison, from tail to throat.)
A 450-gr TSX at 2300 fps Mv would be a longer range option, almost as good as a 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2500 fps MV, maybe 2600 fps MV to push the envelope.
You are spot on!
I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead of 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same brass
Sir John, Good load that one, since you are using the Norma brass that has gross water about 4 to 5 grains greater than most .458 WM brass. I SWAG your pressure is less than the SAAMI MAP of the .458 Lott, bless its heart.
I succumbed to the charms of a Ruger-Marlin 45-70 Govt yesterday.
I need another 45-70 like I need a hole in my head.
Going back over some notes from 2019, I find these results from H335 in my Ruger No.1 in .458:
450gr "X", 83 grs H335 = 2385 fps at MV
450gr TSX, 83 grs H335 = 2327 fps at MV
450gr Swift AF, 84 grs H335 = 2414 fps at MV
Going back before I had my CZ550 in .458: 75 grs H335 in my Ruger No.1 .45-70 LT under the 500gr Hornady = 2210 fps cprrected to MV; and 2317 fps for 76 grs H335 for the 450gr Swift AF corrected to MV. It had a 22" barrel. All signs indicated LESS psi than a load tested by Accurate for my previous No.1 (unmodified) in .45-70 firing the 500gr Hor at 2015 fps from the 22". Bill Falen Jr. pronounced that load safe that tested 2096 fps in their 24". The powder was AA2015.
I started using H335 in the No.1 with the long throat because I could use more of it than H4895 that was too bulky.
Some nostalgia, but was the basis for my use of H335 in the CZ 550 in .458 and later in the Ruger No.1 in .458. I learned a lot from that trail of experiences. One thing I learned was that safe pressure can be estimated from a number of sources - not from books when there is NO data (and there was none for my Ruger No.1 in .45-70 (modified). The second is that some others will follow pioneer work and build from it. It wasn't long thereafter that several sources began publishing results for H335 in .458s that far surpassed old data - Hornady the first who declared it best in the .458 Win and Lott. And that was well after 2230 had appeared on the scene. Now both are made in the same plant in St Marks, Flordia.
The point: Let's not forget that H335 is STILL one of the best in the great .458 WM using 450s and 500s.
Sir John, Good load that one, since you are using the Norma brass that has gross water about 4 to 5 grains greater than most .458 WM brass. I SWAG your pressure is less than the SAAMI MAP of the .458 Lott, bless its heart.
I succumbed to the charms of a Ruger-Marlin 45-70 Govt yesterday.
I need another 45-70 like I need a hole in my head.
I succumbed to the charms of a Ruger-Marlin 45-70 Govt yesterday.
I need another 45-70 like I need a hole in my head.
Marlin JM - my "cowboy" rifle. 430g LGC @ +/-1860 FPS pretty snappy in a light rifle - could not make it through 10-rounds and just shot mild 405g loads thereafter.
BENCHMARK might be a good one for 400 to 500-grainers. It has about best ThermoBallisticIndependence from overall take on published trials. It would be good to make up a load that gave about 2150 fps with 500-grainer 2250 fps with 450-grainer 2400 fps with 400-grainer from a "standard .458 WinMag rifle." Benchmark Loads, pun intended. Used as standard measuring sticks for comparing MV of different rifles of whatever barrel length/twist/groove/etc. at whatever temperature.
Sir Ron,
BENCHMARK is also great for the 550's too! Using 73gn behind the 550gn Woodleigh l'm getting just under 2100fps (2080fps to be exact) This is from a 24" barrel out of my 'standard' Zastava and loaded to an OAL of 3.340"
Asante sana for the load data good Sirs. I have about 150 pieces of once-fired brass prepped. CFE 223 with 450 TSX Benchmark with 404 Hammer and 400 CEB StaBALL Match with 528 Lehigh are on deck.
Asante sana for the load data good Sirs. I have about 150 pieces of once-fired brass prepped. CFE 223 with 450 TSX Benchmark with 404 Hammer and 400 CEB StaBALL Match with 528 Lehigh are on deck.
Sir John, I am doing great, just too many caretaking duties getting in the way of hobbies. Girlfriend of over 50 years (same one who has been wife of 48 years) and my other Old Lady (88 y.o. Mama), have honey-doos scheduled. Best buddy just lost a leg, and he is slowed up a bit on his enabling of my hobbies. A big tree fell over in backyard and another one is leaning ... about $30,000 of fence and sheds underway soon as trees disposed of ... and Wife and I are meeting a high school team mate and his wife tomorrow at Longhorn for steak and taters.
Lately, a 76 y.o. good buddy has decided he needed to take up elk hunting and got a .300 WinMag that I am coaching him on. He thought a .30-06 was a kicker. Monday we went to the range and I chronographed some +20 y.o. handloads of mine for the .300 WinMag, and got his new rifle zeroed. That was a good illustration of what might have started some bad poop on the .458 WinMag factory loads of yore, you know, from when the Democrats were running the ammo factory. Details to follow.
Meanwhile all Knights of the Square Table are encouraged to grab a horn of meade and share anything that comes to mind about how wonderful the .458 WinMag is, especially any chronographed load data and terminal results on game. Any jokes about the SAAMI .458 Lott are also greatly appreciated.
I've got some great news for ya - life doesn't get simpler and easier as ya get older! My Doc says "Bob, you need to take ALL ya meds - your sugars are too elevated!" "But Doc", says I, "that makes me spend too much time in the bathroom! There's other matters I need to get done, like shootin', handloading 'n huntin'!"
Jack flggerd out how bad the 458 lott was and had to pop a cap on the dude that invented it
Good one from Sir Allen !
Sir Bob, I hear ya. You are the Iron Man of the North.
Dang if I don't have to walk 8.1 miles behind my self-propelled mower today to cut a tortuously sloped and obstacled yard.
And dang if there ain't an air show this weekend with the USAF Thunderbirds instead of the USN Blue Angels. I can't miss that. Darn more time away from the rifle range !
On 10-26-2000:
I tested my 140-gr XBT handload for the .300 WinMag, gloriously SAAMI throated with a leade-only throat. It is a scaled-down and more abrupt version of the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat. The rifle was a Ruger M77 Mk II stainless "All-Weather" with sights on barrel and in a Zytel canoe paddle stock, Ruger rings. 24"-long factory barrel of 1:10" twist. SAAMI .300 WinMag Throat: 0.3150" diameter at start of leade, 1*26'37" leade angle (hemi-angle of the cone)
That ammo put 5 shots into 0.375" (center-to-center) at 115 yards. It was a new range and as previously told the bulldozer driver was either drunk or confusing his yards and meters, or both, when he pushed up the berms, later corrected. Those 5 shots chronographed for mean velocity of 3301.8 fps at 5 yards. St. dev. = 4.0 fps Extreme Spread of 9 fps. MV corrected for G1 BC of 0.398 = 3315 fps MV
COL was 3.400" easily working through the Ruger .300 WinMag box length. Powder charge was 74.0 grains IMR-4350, 1.5 grains below Barnes #2 manual maximum. W-W Super brass, F-215 primer. I was not sophisticated enough to record temperature on that October day nearly 23 years ago. Probably about 70*F here in Kentucky. I did use the ammo to kill two whitetails, one with a precise heart shot from 200 yards: Heart exploded into a 3-leaf shamrock shape and bullet kept going. The other deer kill was a messy running butt shot at 160 yards. It quickly bled to death from femoral artery bleeds, both femoral arteries IIRC. Wasted a lot of meat on that one.
Forward to 09-11-2023, a somber 22nd anniversary salute:
33 rounds of the above handload sat unused in a plastic case in a footlocker in my garage, not climate controlled for almost 23 years. Temperatures varying from scorching to freezing for over two decades. Humidity ?
5-shots chronographed in same good rifle I'd never part with or change: mean = 3222.6 fps at 5 yards, MV = 3237 fps ES = 134 fps !!! Temp = 81*F, RH = 58%, 30.08 in Hg Probably hotter than October was almost 23 years earlier. But mean velocity decreased and Extreme Spread greatly increased, on the aged handloads. Would H4350 have done any better than IMR-4350 in the aging process ?
So, 23 years and velocity mean decreased from 3315 fps to 3237 fps: Lost 78 fps. Accuracy went to hell too.
This suggests that aging in poor storage of what may have been Democrat-loaded factory ammo for the .458 WinMag contributed to anecdotes of .458-caliber bullets bouncing off the dirt on the way to a second bounce off of the elephant. Especially when the Democrat-loaded ammo came from machinery that spilled powder out of the case instead of into it, and the loosely seated bullets were sometimes glued into place at the factory, and sometimes a defective powder lot was congealed into a compressed and solid mass inside the case. Then there is the factor of riding on the dash board of the bakkie for years before a slovenly PH tries the ammo for backup.
Probably best to shoot up your handloaded ammo in a year or two and keep it in proper HVAC storage for comfort. Same conditions for the ammo as the hunter likes to sleep in, and all will sleep better.
That 64 years and 4 months old ammo that Sir Tony donated to the Square Table must have been stored well. 500-gr FMJ Winchester factory load gave 2066 fps at 5 yards for 5-shot mean. That was at 49*F on 03-29-2022. Correcting to MV for G1 BC = 0.295: 2080 fps MV from a 25" Shilen barrel.
Advertised velocity from the 25" Winchester M70 African barrel back in 1957: 2125 fps, assumed 70*F
Those Republicans loaded good factory ammo before the Democrats started messing things up.
They don't make the 140-gr Barnes XBT anymore. But there are from Hammer Bullets a .308 Cal. 154-gr Hammer HHT, 160-gr Hammer Hunter, 165-gr Power Hammer and CEB Maximus 165-grainers, and a Barnes TTSX 168-grainer, to name but a few.
As with the .300 WinMag handload re-tested this week, I will clean my barrel and fire 2 fouling shots before shooting for record on .458 WinMag handloads coming up.
Sir Ron, That 64 and 4 month old ammo was stored well and the practices of doing such were passed down by a well healed military man and all around good Father in Law. Pretty amazing results from that batch. Amazed at the .458 WM results but not surprised. Keep up the good work Knights.
"Sir Bob, I hear ya. You are the Iron Man of the North"
No... more like "the Rusty Tin Man of the North"!
Anyway, Sir Ron keep up the good work of defending and promoting "the Great .458 Winchester Magnum" - and I'm serious about that. I've enjoyed your recent work with "new" powders. Looking forward to your latest yet to come.
Sir Ron, You may be onto something regarding the BLR and 458 Winchester. I have not handled one of the newer models in awhile. Don't they have some sort of new fangled hammer operation ?
It seems that I have read of someone doing a bigger bore cartridge on the new BLR. I don't recall the chambering though. No doubt the 458 Winchester would make that rifle all that it could be.
Without that grinder, that stump would still be a Lott of work.
CFE 223 in the .458 WinMag is like the Old Bull. The young bull wants to run down the hill and cut a heifer out of the herd. The Old Bull prefers walking down and cutting them all. The CFE 223 pokes paper well.
65 gr = 1726 fps hit about 3" low 68 gr = 1845 fps hit about 4" low faster shot lower with the 450-gr TSX. Scope was adjusted for elevation only, 32 clicks up for next 6 groups, no windage adjustments. Pretty well zeroed at 50 yards for 71-grain charge (1943 fps) with no other adjustments. Calm day, might need two clicks to the right.
Sir Larry, Might take two TakeDown rifles, a long action and a short action Find a .300 WinMag BLR TakeDown and see if the .450 Marlin Barrel could be transplanted ? Then is there enough meat in the .450 Marlin barrel to lengthen chamber by 1/2" ?
If not, re-throating the .450 Marlin would certainly be a worthy project.
Very cool #1 RC! Looks like that big hammer wants to hunt!
Sir Scotty,
Beam us up, then to anywhere on the planet and Daisy will make a bloody big hole through any critter. One planet, one Daisy.
Recall that by allowing her a COL of 3.480" with the 500-gr Hornady RNSN InterLock (BOL 1.330") she was able to digest 85 grains of CFE 223 with no powder compression, producing 2169 fps MV (52*F) and a 3-shot, 50-yard group of 0.63 MOA.
With the short COL of 3.340" and the much longer 450-gr TSX (BOL 1.520") even as little as 74 grains of CFE 223 is pretty heavily compressed. Hence the slower velocity with the lighter bullet is about all Daisy can do, when "governed" by SAAMI COL limit. CFE 223 is slow, needs a smaller bore and/or higher sectional density bullet to get pressures up. CFE 223 in the .458 WinMag with 450-gr TSX would be hard to get pressure over 60,000 psi, unless the rifle had a problem with some funny business, like the SAAMI .458 Lott suffers from.
I know how much you like CFE 223 in the .416 RemMag with SAAMI MAP 65,000 psi. Good powder there, probably allows top speeds at lower pressures there. Accurate but slow in the .458 WinMag, might be better with 550-600 grainers. Might be able to get pressures up to 60,000 psi SAAMI MAP for .458 WinMag.
Daisy used 83.0 grains of AA-2460 and a COL of 3.570" to get the 450-gr TSX up to 2459 fps MV, and same charge powder with a COL of 3.550" to get 500-gr TBSS up to 2408 fps MV at 80*F. Those were LabRadar velocities, no correction for BC needed. Both bullets also go to same zero at 100 yards, with same powder charge, and slightly different COL, fired from Daisy.
AA-2230 and AA-2460 are speedy powders, and behave very close to same in the LongCOL loads for .458 WM+. AA-2460 just takes up a little more case capacity than AA-2230 with the latter's pre-flattened granules.
BTW, CFE 223 and AA-2230 look similar in granules, and they meter about identically. 72 grains weight fills the same case volume with both.
CFE 223 surely seems to live up to the Copper Fouling Elimination.
Once again the .458 WinMag at 3.340" COL shows that the long throat is no impediment to accuracy. It's all good, in the .458 Winchester Magnum, King of Cartridges.
Here is a better view of my replacement for the forend hanger screw on the Ruger No.1 which I did because the original slotted head screw got stripped and bent by keeping a firm grip on the forearm during lots of shooting, including 500-grainers at +2400 fps:
The hardware used was the sliding ferrule from the CZ 550 Magnum barrel recoil lug contraption, from a take-off barrel, and high-quality socket screw. Forearm was full contact bedded to action and barrel except for the cut-out for the hanger arm. My accurizing and strengthening method could be done to a walnut or laminated stock also. BTW, the quarter rib was also removed and re-attached with J-B Weld. J-B Weld, original formula, was used for all glass bedding and refinements, including the Schnabel Blobbel with inset, black paint and clear epoxy overlay. A labor of love for your rifle.
From the previous shot, the above screw was replaced with stainless screw and a washer added under the socket head:
... screw length might be perfect as found or need trimming to length, parts is parts.
My next trick will be some standard SAAMI-satisfying loads using Hodgdon BENCHMARK with the 400-gr CEB FN solid and the 404-gr Shock Hammer. That combo should be as useful as Archimedes' lever, in the standard bolt action .458 WinMag. EUREKA !!!
Will give Daisy a rest and let her try them later.
True. Hard to beat it. Many come close in the versatile .458 WinMag. One way that BENCHMARK might be superior is in ThermoBallisticIndependence (TBI), if that matters.
The BENCHMARK loads will be of interest mainly for establishing whether a given rifle is a fast one or a slow one for whatever the ambient temperature is that day. The BENCHMARK loads will be benchmark loads, pun intended. Will have to be 3.340" COL and with a MAP about 60,000 psi by best SWAG. No .458 Lott pressures and COLs allowed for the benchmark loads with BENCHMARK.
After that I will have to get back to beating the SAAMI .458 Lott with the .458 WM+. Maybe even a .458 Watts Express 2.7" if I ever succumb to wildcatting madness again.
If a Lott is a rechambered 458 Win mag then all is good with the Lott, otherwise 👎
Sir John, That is not true. The .458 Lott can be improved with the new throat, becoming able to equal the .458 WM+, but it still suffers in another way. When you take a cartridge meant for a 3.4" mag box, lengthen the brass by 0.3" and then stick it in a rifle with 3.6" mag box, only 0.2" longer, you are screwing up by 0.1". That is a pretty sloppy tolerance for gunsmithing. It stinks ! Like engraving the rifle with a brick !
By SAAMI spec, the .458 Lott is missing 0.1" of nose room for bullet fit. You either have to trim the Lott brass shorter or accept exceeding SAAMI COL for something as simple as using the 450-gr TSX bullet in the .458 Lott.
Nowadays the bullet makers have shifted to shorter-nosed .458 bullets so as not to hurt the feelings of the .458 Lott crybabies.
The smart thing to do if wanting to upstage the .458 Winchester Magnum by sticking it in a 0.2"-longer rifle action would be to make the brass 0.2" longer, not 0.3" longer. The answer is the .458 Watts Express 2.7". That is a cross of .450 Watts Magnum (2.850" brass) with .458 Winchester Magnum (2.500" brass). 2.7" brass case and .458 Winchester Magnum throat same distance from breech face. Re-chamber a .458 WinMag with no setback of barrel.
New name for this wildcat: .458 Watts-Winchester = .458 WW for short. Splitting the baby on that would be a 2.675" case length, but 2.700" is NO PROBLEMO.
This adds no power to the top-end .458 WM+ loads with heavy bullet, unless used in a single-shot or +3.8"-length magazine. But it will allow use of 250-grain bullets at faster velocities and lower pressures than the .458 Lott, could even better the .458 WM+ with the proper 250-grainer, allowing longer seating depth and longer COL. Allows better grip on a 404-gr Shock Hammer at longer COL.
404-gr Shock Hammer loads: .458 WM+: 3.38" COL and +2500 fps .458 WW: 3.580" and +2600 fps SAAMI .458 Lott: 3.580" and less than 2600 fps at higher pressure due to SAAMI Lott throat, short and tight.
The .458 Lott is still the champ with bird shot, almost as good as a .410 shotgun up close. Excellent for rats and snakes at close range.
Want to get higher velocities with the 450-gr TSX and the self-cleaning CFE 223 in your SAAMI .458 WinMag ?
Load that TSX to 3.680" COL by crimping in the last cannelure, the 4th groove. Pour in more CFE 223 with a drop tube. Single load the cartridge into your bolt-action or single-shot rifle. You will beat the SAAMI .458 Lott in either higher velocity or lower pressure, maybe both if splitting hairs.
Three cheers for EdM for the side table display. Hip-hip-hooray. I once rebarreled a .416 RemMag to .458 WinMag. She was a Winner. EdM's rifle would be a lot more interesting if it was a .458 Winchester Magnum that shoots 404-gr Shock Hammers of about 0.419 G1 BC at faster MV than a .416/400-grainer can do from a .416 RemMag at 65,000 psi SAAMI MAP. Hence the .458 WM+ housed in the M70 Long Action would have a flatter trajectory and greater impact at all ranges. It could certainly beat the .416 RemMag at lesser pressure, whatever MV is desired. The standard SAAMI .458 WinMag of 3.340" COL pushes 400-grainers to +2400 fps MV at 60,000 psi MAP. Assume 24" barrels all around.
Jacketed and monometal bullet weights from 250 grains to 600 grains: .458 Win Cast bullet versatility outstanding, even paper-patched and BP, with even greater weight range: .458 Win Subsonic to near Mach 3: .458 Win Greater powder variety versatility: .458 Win
Back to Square Table business now, at the center of the great room.
Order in the great room please.
I make a motion to accept a new BENCHMARK benchmark as a Square Table standard for the King of Cartridges.
The WOODLEIGH BULLETS LOADING MANUAL has tabulated BENCHMARK 2 (ADI) = BENCHMARK (Hodgdon) loads for the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum. First the powder tables to show equivalence of the ADI and Hodgdon powders, always showing same loads and results for these two powders in the Woodleigh Bullets load data to follow:
All the load data benchmarks are in the Woodleigh data for 400-grainer to 550-grainer. There is even a separate tabulation aimed at regulation loads for the .458 WinMag double rifles circa 1970 to 1990, before the flanged cartridges revived, short lived as it may have been.
Consider this load data to be SAAMI satisfying for the .458 Winchester Magnum, this is correctomundo IMHO for 3.340" Max COL 60,000 psi MAP 24" rifle barrel length 1:14" twist 0.458" to 0.459" groove diameter Hornady, W-W Super, or Remington brass of 94 to 95 grains water gross, and Large Rifle Magnum Primer of the F215/WLRM/CCI250 types.
Here is the double rifle regulation load data for 26" barrels and 480-grain bullets:
And a further illustration of the short-nosed 480-grain bullet suitable for the true .450 NE with no throat, also works in the .458 Lott shortie-tightie throat with brass too long for a 3.6" magbox, whereas the longer-nosed bullet is desirable in the .458 WinMag:
Do I hear a second to the motion to accept the WOODLEIGH BULLETS LOADING MANUAL, 2014 edition, as the BENCHMARK benchmark for .458 Winchester Magnum, with bullets from 400 grains to 550 grains ?
Reference to that data will be used for comparison of any rifle shooting same BENCHMARK load without regard to ambient temperature. By extension, other bullet makes of same weight may be considered for effects on MV. Ditto for effects of differing seating depths. Ditto the effects of shorter and longer barrels. It is a place to hang the thinking caps of the Knights of the Square Table.
Do I hear a second to the motion to accept the WOODLEIGH BULLETS LOADING MANUAL, 2014 edition, as the BENCHMARK benchmark for .458 Winchester Magnum, with bullets from 400 grains to 550 grains ?
Reference to that data will be used for comparison of any rifle shooting same BENCHMARK load without regard to ambient temperature. By extension, other bullet makes of same weight may be considered for effects on MV. Ditto for effects of differing seating depths. Ditto the effects of shorter and longer barrels. It is a place to hang the thinking caps of the Knights of the Square Table.
I'll second you RC!
Man, you definitely have that old 458 sorted out. Really a great thread.
I move that all data, experimentation and JB welding concerning the magnificent 458WM submitted by RifleCrank aka RIP, be considered “The Benchmark” on said topics until gasoline is $0.99 a gallon at Walmart at which time the floor will again be open for consideration. F01
With a second from Sir Scotty and a third (and more) from Sir Dennis, a telepathic vote has been taken. The aye's have it.
Resolved: Woodleigh BENCHMARK (Hodgdon) aka BENCHMARK 2 (ADI) loading data is henceforth considered to be the standard "Benchmark Load" for comparison of rifles conforming to SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum homologation standards. This may be done without regard to piddly differences in ambient temperature.
This will assume use of Woodleigh Bullets cannelures for actual COL of less than or equal to 3.340", 60,000 psi MAP 24" rifle barrel length 1:14" twist 0.458" to 0.459" groove diameter Hornady, W-W Super, or Remington brass of 94 to 95 grains water gross, and Large Rifle Magnum Primer of the F215/WLRM/CCI250 types.
The Benchmark Load will be the baseline for the individual rifle, indicating its relative speediness. Differing load characteristics, non-SAAMI chamber, or rifling variations may then be interpreted, thus facilitating any 'splaining to be done ... like how the .458 WM+ so thoroughly trounces the .416 RemMag and .458 Lott.
The .460 S&W with 1.8" case (lengthened .454 Casull) has a MAP of 65,000 psi.
The milder mannered .450 Bushmaster has a fatter case head, shorter 1.7" case (shortened .284 Winchester reprobated), and a MAP of 38,500 psi SAAMI. It is much loved due to working in the ARs and bolt actions that Bubba can afford without a sponsorship from Big Horn Armory.
Please bear with me. We are about to get to something interesting.
Finally a ho-hum on the .45-70 Gov't., at least they mention it as a favorite chambering for their customers:
I think Ray Livingston would do better with a .45-70 Govt. and all kinds of different rifle bullets available for it, if he is a handloader. He would probably not get a sponsorship for carrying a Winchester 1886 with a .458 WinMag throat to handle up to 2.8" COL. Maybe Ruger-Marlin will sign him up and he can tacticool one of those in .45-70 LT. Either of those would be able to kill cow elk and coyote at close range, like he has been doing with his .460 S&W M90. I think he has a the 22" barreled one and he has been using a suppressor that adds about 8" or more to that. Like a 34"-barreled Sharps for overall length. Mountain Man style tacticool.
The velocity changes on the .45-70 Gov't. are interesting.
from 27" to 13": -267 fps/14" = -19 fps per inch for that huge range.
from 27" to 20": -75 fps/7" = -13 fps per inch
from 20" to 13": -147 fps/7" = -21 fps per inch
from 24" to 22": -4 fps/2" = -2 fps per inch
from 24" to 23": +1 fps/1" = +1 fps per inch of barrel shortening.
That is with 405-gr Remington FNSP and H4198. The .458 Winchester Magnum might be very similar to that. Maybe just shift the curve to the left by an inch to allow another inch of barrel for burning of the bigger charge of powder. 28" to 14" for the .458 WinMag Encore, heh-heh-heh.
I did read the MGM article, but I didn't see how many shots were fired at each length. Did they only fire one shot, or did they fire a number of shots to improve the statistical average? Three to five shots would be nice, and ten per cut would be a fantastic number to give good data.
As I re-read my post it may come across as smart-ass or snarky, and that is not my intention. I have only posted a few times, but I have read every page. I find this site a true wealth of ballistic information for the 458 Win Mag, along with other bigger bores.
BENCHMARK or BENCHMARK 2 (BM2) as it's known in Australia is all l use in the mighty .458 now...
And in regards to the velocity the excellent Woodleigh manual state, here's what l got from the 24" barrel from my Zastava loaded to 3.340"
550gn Woodleigh and 73gns reached 2080fps which was only 30fps under what the manual stated And 450gn Hydro and 75gns reached 2320fps which was 40fps above what the manual states. (I now load 73gns - same as my 550gn load which gets me spot on 2280fps)
BENCHMARK is a truly wonderful powder for the king of cartridges.
I did read the MGM article, but I didn't see how many shots were fired at each length. Did they only fire one shot, or did they fire a number of shots to improve the statistical average? Three to five shots would be nice, and ten per cut would be a fantastic number to give good data.
The Old Virginian, You make a good point. I could not tell either, how many shots per inch. A local custom handloader did the loading and shooting for MGM. MGM did the barrel cutting and cleaning. With that division of labor, surely they did at least 3-shot groups.
They did say that there was some vertical stringing and unexplained velocity variation in some of the GROUPS shot with the .460 S&W.
This suggests 3-shot or more-shots than that per load, per inch of barrel cuts.
One-shot data points would be bogus indeed. 10-shot groups would have smoothed those "curves" out nicely.
Pick your Sir Name and pull up a chair at the Square Table, please.
Asante sana sana for that. Close enough. I am sure Woodleigh did not do all their data in the same test barrel. Who knows, maybe they let a 26-incher do their 550-grain data and a 22-incher did their 450-gr HYDRO data. Or they had all 24-inchers and some barrels are faster or slower than your 24-incher. Powder lot variability is going to be as minimized as possible with the ADI Benchmark 2/Hodgdon Benchmark. Are reported velocities corrected to MV from what range, etc. ??? We cannot control for everything, but this is as good as it gets. Your results are excellent.
Woodleigh did single out BENCHMARK as the best single powder choice for the .458 WinMag. You too.
Revised from a work by Nick Harvey about the .458 Lott, a hand-drawn sketch by Jack Lott was spiffed up by a professional draftsman. Thanks again to Australia. The dimensions in red below have been altered by -0.100" and +0.100" to correct the debauchery of reaming a .458 WinMag to 2.800" brass.
Yes, the .458 Watts Winchester takes brass that is 2.700" long. Long COL loads for the .458 WM+ are perfect in the .458 WW, same-same, though might be excessive in the SAAMI .458 Lott.
The only way to improve on the .458 WM+ with heavy/long bullets is to increase the MAP to 65,000 psi and/or use a particular bullet that can be loaded to longer COL in the .458 WW than in the .458 WM+.
Sir Ron, I have no Benchmark but I am satisfied with AA2230. Excellent velocity at 3.380 COAL and fine accuracy
Sir John, So far, that is my top load too, or you can use AA-2460 with a wee bit of compression, or H4895 with a lot of compression. 2500 fps with 404-gr Shock Hammer is superb. I better get to work on some Benchmark loads with 400-ish grainers to see how the "standard" load compares to this. I have neglected Benchmark too long.
BTW, here is the only clue to .458 Winchester Magnum Denial Syndrome that I was ever able to dig up:
The guy above on the right is also fond of the SAAMI .458 Lott, but he thinks the .458 WinMag kicks too much. Go figger ! Same character flaws for the guy shooting a .577 Trex below:
I'm using Norma cases and a compressed load of AA2230 with the Hammer 404 grain for 2523 FPS.
Very good. Norma brass was 4.7 grains greater in gross water (99.3 gr) than Hornady (94.6 gr). Increasing the COL of the .458 WM+ from 3.380" to 3.480" will add 4.2 grains of water gross. So a 3.480" COL with Hornady brass is very like a 3.380" COL with Norma brass.
Using Norma brass and the 404-gr SH with AA-2230, I found that increasing the COL from 3.38" to 3.48" caused a velocity loss of -63 fps. Adding 4 more grains of AA-2230 to the 3.480" COL boosted that reduced MV by +120 fps.
Seems that you need to add about 2 grains of powder for each 0.1" of extra COL to keep same MV/pressure. Likewise, use of Hornady brass case requires about 2 grains less powder than a Norma brass case at same COL for both, for about same MV.
I believe the 404-gr Shock Hammer benchmark-BENCHMARK load ought to be with COL set at 3.340", wherever the crimp may fall. And it ought to use the more standard 94-ish-grains brass instead of the 99-ish-grains Norma brass. This should be compared to the "Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual" results for 400-gr PPSN with the crimp in the factory cannelure: 78.0 grains (compressed) Benchmark/Benchmark 2 for 2340 fps MV. Seems kind of slow for the manual data. Like what Sir Russ found with his rifle and 450-gr HYDRO.
My listing, again, of findings for brass makes, once-fired, not resized, and mathematically corrected to 2.500" brass length for gross water capacity:
I think I will save the Peterson Wildcat tube for the .458 Watts-Winchester 2.7": 102.1 grains H2O gross. MAP for the .458 WW will be 65,000 fps, same as the .416 RemMag. So it will really leave the .458 Lott in the rear view mirror, with same loads as the .458 WM+ that uses a SAAMI chamber.
Yes, about right, Sir Bob, if you make the COL 3.580", maximum possible for the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Probably an underestimate for the MV of a HIGH PRESSURE load with 77 grains at 3.480" COL
In my 25" Shilen barrel on Bobbarrella the CZ 550 Magnum, at 86*F:
W-W Super brass GM215M primer 3.480" COL (BOL 1.440", seat depth 0.460") 404-gr Shock Hammer (G1 BC 0.419)
24" barrel would be mighty close to 2500 fps. From 70.0 to 72.0 grains of H4198, velocity increased exactly 40 fps, about 20 fps per grain. Adding 5 more grains for the 77.0 grain charge might add 100 fps: 2600 fps unless there are diminishing returns after 72.0 grains. Or a primer fell out of the expanded primer pocket !
Bumping the COL out to 3.58" might give 2550 fps in 24" barrel with 77.0 grains of H4198. Using Norma brass at 3.480" might work too.
70.0 grains of H4198 with W-W Super brass and 3.380" COL might be a great load for the 404-gr Shock Hammer. And so the powder burns and the world turns.
Some elaboration on the point to EdM on another thread needs to be posted here for its pertinence to the history of the .458 Winchester Magnum:
You can even make better birdshot/snake loads with the .458 WinMag than with a .416 RemMag. I will concede the .458 Lott might make a better shotgun.
.416/400-gr SD = 0.330 .458/500-gr SD = 0.341
.416 RemMag: 400-gr at 2400 fps and 65,000 psi
.458 WinMag: 500-gr at 2200 fps at 60,000 psi:
The .458 WinMag will out penetrate the .416 RemMag on game animals if a proper FN monometal solid is used. When you get to 2200 fps little is gained on penetration by going faster, other than shock and awe, more to the shooter than the shootee.
Thus the .458 WinMag is better at long range with 404-gr Shock Hammer. It is better on elephant at close range with a 500-gr FN.
Those are routinely attained MV's with 24" barrels. Winchester is loading the 500-gr Nosler Partition and Solid at 2,240 fps. Hornady used to offer 500-grainers at 2260 fps, soft and solid, when their bullets could not handle it. Lately they have backed off to 2140 fps with better bullets.
This reminds us of a possible explanation for why Winchester reduced the MV of .458 WM factory loads from 2125 fps with their 500 & 510-grainers (standard from 25" barrel since 1956), to only 2050 fps in 26"-barreled double rifles. They were catering to the .458 WinMag double rifle craze that sprung up when the rimmed DR ammo got scarce. It was not because of any problems with the .458 WinMag. It was because of the abuses of the ammo by shooters of double rifles, lower pressures for the delicate things. Factory goofs and bad storage of aged ammo can explain any anecdotes of the .458 WinMag bullets dropping to the ground right out of the barrel in deepest Africa
The .458 Winchester Magnum is without peer. It is the King of +.40-bore hunting rifles. Everybody ought to have at least one of them as a show of good judgement. Re-barrel or re-bore your .416 RemMag to .SAAMI .458 WinMag, and you will have two rifles in one. A SAAMI .458 WM and a .458 WM+.
Some elaboration on the point to EdM on another thread needs to be posted here for its pertinence to the history of the .458 Winchester Magnum:
You can even make better birdshot/snake loads with the .458 WinMag than with a .416 RemMag. I will concede the .458 Lott might make a better shotgun.
.416/400-gr SD = 0.330 .458/500-gr SD = 0.341
.416 RemMag: 400-gr at 2400 fps and 65,000 psi
.458 WinMag: 500-gr at 2200 fps at 60,000 psi:
The .458 WinMag will out penetrate the .416 RemMag on game animals if a proper FN monometal solid is used. When you get to 2200 fps little is gained on penetration by going faster, other than shock and awe, more to the shooter than the shootee.
Thus the .458 WinMag is better at long range with 404-gr Shock Hammer. It is better on elephant at close range with a 500-gr FN.
Those are routinely attained MV's with 24" barrels. Winchester is loading the 500-gr Nosler Partition and Solid at 2,240 fps. Hornady used to offer 500-grainers at 2260 fps, soft and solid, when their bullets could not handle it. Lately they have backed off to 2140 fps with better bullets.
This reminds us of a possible explanation for why Winchester reduced the MV of .458 WM factory loads from 2125 fps with their 500 & 510-grainers (standard from 25" barrel since 1956), to only 2050 fps in 26"-barreled double rifles. They were catering to the .458 WinMag double rifle craze that sprung up when the rimmed DR ammo got scarce. It was not because of any problems with the .458 WinMag. It was because of the abuses of the ammo by shooters of double rifles, lower pressures for the delicate things. Factory goofs and bad storage of aged ammo can explain any anecdotes of the .458 WinMag bullets dropping to the ground right out of the barrel in deepest Africa
The .458 Winchester Magnum is without peer. It is the King of +.40-bore hunting rifles. Everybody ought to have at least one of them as a show of good judgement. Re-barrel or re-bore your .416 RemMag to .SAAMI .458 WinMag, and you will have two rifles in one. A SAAMI .458 WM and a .458 WM+.
Man, you put a bayonet right into the heart RC! I like it!
My comment of 77 grains of H4198 for a 404 SH at ~2550 was due to some experience with the original 400 X-Bullet over 78 grains of the same powder at 2590 fps (corrected to MV) from the 24" barrel of the Ruger No.1.
I'm not recommending it, but IF I were going "North" again for a bull moose, that might be my load. I'd have no qualms in using it. The COL was 3.65". The 404 has a BT so would be seated a bit deeper, but since I've none at hand, I don't know where the first groove would be, Soooo, I'd estimate 77 max for the 404. But would make any compromises essential to safety and accuracy within reason. I still have a bunch of those "longed for" 400 Xs.
The 404 being the best replacement - thanks to your good work... as always!
Sir Bob, You make good sense as usual. Here is a repeat on the COL, BOL, and seating depths sort of like me doing a commercial for Hammer Bullets:
Poor ol' .458 Lott gets to work with only one COL, 3.580". I heard Sir James (Hydehunter) used a 3.68" COL, in his CZ 550 Magnum .458 Winchester Magnum, for a fast and low pressure load one-shot cape buffalo bull kill with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Sir Jerry stuck with a 3.480" COL and 2500 fps in his M70 .458 WM+ using AA-2460. There are more ways to load a .458 WM+ than to skin a cat like the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Speaking of the .458 Lott. I heard Jack Lott's significant other was named Mona. They had fun by going to a restaurant without reservations. They would wait on the bench in the entrance foyer for the hostess to call them:
"Table for Jack and Mona Lott."
They enjoyed hearing everyone in earshot bust out in laughter as they arose and sauntered in, Jack and his sister Mona high-fiving as they followed the red faced hostess to their table.
I finally got some range time with my newly acquired Ruger M77 458. It's a beautiful rifle - looks practically brand new although the serial number shows it was built in 1978! I added a Leupold 1.5x5 scope I've had for several years.
Anyway, I loaded some very light loads to start out with - 45-70 level stuff. I didn't get to do much accuracy testing, only had time to get it on paper at 25 yards. I was very surprised when I only had to make a few clicks right to get things lined up.
I had 2 loads, both using the Hornady 325gr FTX:
30.0gr AA5744 w/CCI 250 primer COL 3.319 - averaged a leisurely 992fps. Recoil was nonexistent. I probably need to add some powder, but it's fun to have a subsonic 458!
48.0gr H4198 w/CCI250 primer COL 3.319 - averaged 1846fps. Should knock the snot out of our Southern Whitetails.
I may up the charge to get an even 2000fps, similar to a factory Hornady Leverevolution 45-70 loads.
Here's the FTX at 3.319, seated to the groove, and a 45-70 load for reference. Looks like some ICBMs to me!
I still have 30 of a box of 50 of those 325gr FTX's. They were bought 15 yrs ago for my NEF single-shot in .45-70, which I took wolf hunting in January. Never shot a wolf but they were accurate at ~2400 fps. Have never loaded any since nor fired any in my .458s. I'd donate them to someone handy in Ontario.
But the Hornady 250gr MonoFlex is a bullet I like very much from my Ruger No.1 Tropical in .458. It's very accurate and punches well above its weight. I've two loads for it, and neither is max: One from Sir Ron that shoots into sub-moa - 65 grains of A5744 at ~2610 fps, and a load I put together using H4198: 69 grains of H4198 at ~2708 fps. That too is sub-moa. Using a max load of H4198 I've gone over 3000 fps with that bullet, but there's little point as the velocity drops off rather quickly due to a rather poor BC. However, using Sir Ron's load, I test fired it into a very tough media (dry glossy magazines) from 10 ft and it retained 94% of it's unfired weight. So, that's one of my "go-to" loads for this area where shots will never be more than 150 yds. It's also very mild in recoil at about 30 ft-lbs, less 15% from the Mag-na-ports = about 25 ft-lbs - about the same as a heavy load in an 8 lb .30-06. A5744 is not quite as good as H4198 in resistance to extremes in temps.
That bullet was made by Hornady for the Marlins in .450 and .45-70 at around 2200 - 2300 fps max... and recommended for elk, moose, bears, etc. The 325 FTX has a lead core and is much more frangible.
All of that is somewhere earlier in this thread, but this may save having to read the whole document - which you should anyway.
Sir Bob - thanks for the recommendations! I have a couple of 45-70s, a Marlin 1895 w/22" barrel and a Ruger #1 Tropical, so I already had the FTXs Having 1 bullet for 3 rifles works pretty well. I'll keep them around 2000-2100 max for sure. I've shot a couple of pigs and a nice 10 point with the Marlin and the FTX really wacks them.
I'll probably never get to Africa, so it may be a while before I start loading heavier loads, but that's one of the great things about the 458 - you can make it whatever you want!
p.s. I have read all the pages of the thread, it's great reading! Such a great source of knowledge of all things 458
good day eveyone, that reminds me of a couple customers that I had, when they came in even though I knew their names I always had to ask and not chuckle. Harry and Cherry Crack was their names
good day eveyone, that reminds me of a couple customers that I had, when they came in even though I knew their names I always had to ask and not chuckle. Harry and Cherry Crack was their names
Sir James, Asante sana sana.
Now to figure out a double date joke of some sort for the Lotts and the Cracks. Here are Harry and Cherry Crack in a meme revised so as to be more socially redeeming:
Now accepting any comedy writing to work the Lotts and the Cracks into a skit together, tag team style or double date, or ttwhatever.
"When Jack and Mona Lott Met Harry and Cherry Crack" could be a movie starring Hunter Biden as Harry Crack. Might already exist on Hunter's laptop.
The .375 H&H M70 Winchester and a Colt revolver in .45 LC were on James Watts, until the grizzly shot by the .375 ran over him and clawed the pistol belt and holstered gun off James Watts' hip in the middle of a creek. The bear did die on the other side of the creek across which he had charged. James got wet and bruised by a paw swat that knocked him over. In his mind the .375 H&H and the .45 Long Colt had a baby, in the Summer of 1939.
After 1939, WWII and other factors intervened, so James Watts did not have a shooting .450 Watts Magnum rifle until 1949. But he did get to shoot a lot of 50 BMG guns, installing them in bombers and zeroing them.
The gunsmith Harvey Anderson who built the first .450 Watts Magnum, on an FN Mauser in 1949, copyrighted the cartridge in 1950, and did fair business making .450 Watts Magnum rifle for others. He and James also produced other cartridges including the .450 Watts Short. By 1953 the .450 Watts Magnum had been written up in magazines and Jack O'Connor had used it as a Safari Rifle. About 1954 Watts said he signed "a release" to WRAC for them to go ahead with what would become the .458 Winchester Magnum, shooting by 1955, all over the world by 1956. Watts had been begging Winchester to do something like that since 1947.
Some joker without a clue must have written this in 1953 to get it into the 1954 edition of GUN DIGEST:
This is akin to stolen valor, like with Jack Lott inventing a replacement for the .458 WinMag in 1971 after his gut shot to the buffalo in 1959, though he and his buddies continued using the .458 WinMag in the interim, with much better success than Jack's first outing with it.
Nowadays you can buy factory loads with 500-grainers that produce 2240 fps from a 24" barrel. Jack had trouble handling 2125 fps with 500- and 510-gr bullets from his 25" barreled M70 African. After a soft to the buffalo's gut, the RN steel FMJ "solid" went squirrely. Jack moaned a Lott after that. He should have blamed his own shooting and the lousy RN FMJ "solid." But no, he blamed the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge 12 years later, a likely excuse for face saving and self aggrandizement, naming a cartridge after himself. Finally, suicide was the only way out. Very sad.
Sir John, Components are sitting on the reloading bench. Too many ol'lady things going on lately. Will do. The Woodleigh manual actually has data for BENCHMARK with the 400-gr PPSN. Will try that at 3.48"-3.58" with the 404-gr Shock Hammer in the 2.5" brass of the .458 WinMag.
I will do it properly this time, starting low and working up. Last time I started with H4895 and the maximum .458 Lott load with 400-gr PPSN in the .458 WinMag with COL of 3.425", IIRC. COL with that bullet in the .458 Lott should be about 3.470". Loading Manual MV for the .458 Lott was supposed to be 2570 fps. I beat that with the .458 WinMag at COL that was 0.045" shorter than in the Lott.
.458 Lott: 2570 fps MV, 3.470" COL crimped on factory cannelure. .458 WinMag: 2627 fps MV, 3.425" COL crimped on a secondary cannelure,
That was with 87.0 grains of H4895, compressed load in the .458 Lott also. To be fair, my .458 WinMag had a 25" barrel. The Woodleigh .458 Lott barrel might have been 24". A one inch barrel differenece from 24" to 25" ought to add no more than 15 fps. No excuse. The .458 WinMag still wins.
Instead of starting at the top with heavily compressed H4895 and Woodleigh bullet, I will start low with BENCHMARK and work up. with 404-gr Shock Hammer and BENCHMARK.
Sir John, Just kind of inconvenient when you have to use a drop tube and compress it that much. The .458 Lott has 0.045" length of powder column advantage, which is piddly. H4895 is heavily compressed in the .458 Lott also, when you load it to crimp on that Woodleigh cannelure with the 400-gr PPSN.
Stay tuned, I have a plan for the Benchmark comparison. Funny that SWIFT BULLET COMPANY RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER TWO has Benchmark data for their 400-grainer in the .458 Lott but not the .458 WinMag !
Good summary on the .458 WinMag. Just the facts, no Lottite BS.
I have always noticed the Swift A-Frame is bit sticky in the barrel and gives a little slower MV (and/or higher pressure) than a slicker bullet like the Nosler Partition of same weight. Must be lubricity difference of pure copper versus gilding metal ? Just my observation. The 404-gr Shock Hammer with magic copper alloy and PDR bands will be more slippery.
So, some short-COL loads to satisfy SAAMI. Note brass used above was Federal and barrel was 1:14" twist and 24" length, by Wiseman. The .458 Lott data that follows is where the Benchmark loads were found. Note brass used was Norma and barrel was a 1:10" twist and 24" long, by Wiseman.
Historical note above about the .458 Lott is faulty in not telling that Jack Lott waited over a decade to suddenly realize in 1971 that the .458 Winchester Magnum was faulty, even though he and his friends continued to use it successfully from 1959 to 1971. After he helped his buddy create the .460 G&A circa 1970, he realized he needed a new Schtick too. Thus the .458 Lott was sold by badmouthing the .458 WinMag and totally ignoring the .450 Watts Magnum. The note is excellent in noting the part that the A-Square Company had in commercializing the .458 Lott in 1989, shamefully from Kentucky location at the time, and SAAMI homologation in 1995.
So, we have Woodleigh data with Benchmark propellant in the SAAMI .458 WinMag and Swift data for the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Recall that I tested two .458 WinMag Mausers, Freki and Geri, as examples of 1:10" and 1:14" twists, both with 0.458" grooves, both with 24" barrel length (or 24-1/4" to be more precise), but Geri has a 0.200" shorter-than-SAAMI throat while Freki has SAAMI throat for the .458 WinMag.
Predictably Geri was faster in MV, with the Hornady 500-gr DGX factory load advertised at 2140 fps MV. Geri: 2196 fps MV Freki: 2145 fps MV
So 1:10" twist has no significant speed impediment according to that. My previous testing of other SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag rifles of 1:14 twist, whether 0.458" or 0.459" in groove diameter, all showed about 2140 fps MV for 24" barrel. Honest Hornady.
I will use Freki to test the Benchmark, in Norma brass to be most like the Swift data. I will start at 3.28" COL and 78 grains of Benchmark for the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
3.280" COL 78.0 gr Benchmark 3.380" COL 80.0 gr 3.480" COL 82.0 gr 3.580" COL 84.0 gr
Will fine tune from there. Equivalent loads with the W-W/Hornady/Federal/R-P brass would need COLs 0.100" longer than above. Maybe skip any 3.680" COL. That is a bit of a stretch.
Oops, their I go again, started with a Woodleigh max load for 400-grainer in .458 WinMag. However, I am starting low and working up to more than the .458 Lott max load in the Swift manual. Tell your kids not to try that at home.
I've often wondered if the "sticky" A-frame bullets could be powder coated (and sized after if needed) to reduce pressure and increase velocity. A direct comparison with all other variables held constant could be interesting.
I've often wondered if the "sticky" A-frame bullets could be powder coated (and sized after if needed) to reduce pressure and increase velocity. A direct comparison with all other variables held constant could be interesting.
Sir Bevan, Interesting. I never thought of that. There will be some spring-back. Soft copper jacket and soft lead (bonded) cores with a thick copper partition in the middle. If it springs back by .002": A .458 A-Frame pushed through a 0.455" sizer might spring back to .457" and get painted up to .458" after degreasing. Or, squeaky clean bullet painted to 0.459" then pushed through a 0.456" die might spring back to 0.458". Yep, latter sounds better.
Having a set containing .455", .456", .457", and .458" sizers would be a good start. It seems when I size a .463" PC-painted BHN25 hardcast with a 0.460" sizer, it springs back to 0.461". Soft lead sizes true: 0.000" TSX springs back 0.002", IIRC. Probably A-frame 0.002" also. A worthy experiment. Would have to try and see.
Forgot to mention Swift data for CFE 223 and 500-grain A-Frame in the .458 Lott:
The .458 Lott requires compression of CFE 223 (109% LR) to get over 2200 fps. Use same powder charge (or more) with 3.600" COL, easy with the longer bullet in the .458 WM+ and a second cannelure on the 500-grainer. Reduce copper fouling with CFE 223, or use PC-paint and proper sizing. Ought to be able to outrun the .458 Lott with CFE 223 in the .458 WinMag using 500-grainers. .458 Lott max load is .458 WM+ starting load. Heh, heh, heh.
Sir Bob, Glad you like it. Funny how they had to use compressed loads with 6 out of 9 powders in the .458 Lott. AND they did not even crack 2240 fps MV which is available as a factory load for the SAAMI .458 WinMag and 500-gr Noslers.
The Square Table theme is the quest for the Holy Grail. Like Monty Python we do a bit of tongue in cheek here, especially when it comes to the .458 Lott. Never with the .458 Winchester Magnum, especially when pulling the trigger on one. Might bite tongue off.
The rifle that got me excited again about the .458 WinMag after "decades of denial" fueled by the lunatic ravings of exalted Gun Guru Ross Seyfried:
The pristine .458 WinMag take-off barrel resulted from the "decades of denial." Bought that CZ 550 Magnum just to re-barrel it to some feral wildcat.
Not all goes well, with those efforts to make lemonade from a lemon, to undo the violation of a .458 WinMag. I had another .458 WinMag that I thought was good after I had a .458 Lott reamer run into it, during the "decades of denial." I was hoping it might be salvageable by shortening by 0.3" at the breach. Alas, the relief cut required to get the barrel off messed that up. It still took 2400 ft-lbs of torque to unscrew the barrel, as unbeknowst it had been epoxied into the action at the CZ factory. I think the Czechs discovered J-B Weld long ago.
One .458 WinMag take-off barrel was resurrected. However that one that had been turned into a .458 Lott (the devil made me do it) sure went to hell in a handbasket. Might have saved another one but for the unknown epoxy installation of barrel by CZ on the innocent original .458 WinMag chambering.
At least the deceased .458 Lott barrel was able to donate an organ. Marcella got a banded front sight out of the deal. Hard to find a lighter front sight with banded ramp than on a CZ, especially after some of the rear end of the ramp is hacksawed to shorten it:
I now use that .458 Lott barrel as a cheater pipe on an arbor press. Could also be used in place of rebar for concrete reinforcement. Or as a garden stake.
Good news on the Hodgdon BENCHMARK (ADI Benchmark 2).
Rifle was Freki the FN Mauser with 24-1/4" Pac-Nor No. 5 Sporter, 1:10" twist. Scope: Leupold FX Freedom 3-9x40mm Muzzle Loader UltimateSlam Reticle, Scope Mounts: Near MFG Rail, 8x40 screws, Burris Xtac Low Rings
400-gr CEB Safari Solid "Special" Brass FN: COL 3.360" BOL = 1.225" G1 BC = 0.180 Norma brass GM215M primer 69*F 78.0 gr Benchmark with drop tube: Not Compressed, ~ 99% fill 5-yard chrono for 5 shots, mean = 2481.8 fps ... corrected to MV = 2506 fps 5 shots went into one hole at 50 yards.
404-gr Shock Hammer: 3 different COLs, 3.380", 3.480" and 3.580", just could not bring myself to do 3.280". BOL = 1.440" G1 BC = 0.419 Norma brass GM215M primer 69*F
COL 3.380" 78.0 gr Benchmark (mildly compressed): Chrono 2453 fps mean ... MV = 2463 fps, accurate 80.0 gr Benchmark (more compressed): Chrono 2589.8 fps mean ... MV = 2600 fps, not as accurate
COL 3.480" 82.0 gr Benchmark (mildly compressed): Chrono 2610.25 fps mean ... MV = 2620 fps, accurate
COL 3.580" 84.0 gr Benchmark ("full case"): Chrono 2602 fps mean ... MV = 2612 fps, most accurate
Target pictures and further discussion to follow.
Stocking up on Hodgdon BenchMark is recommended. Excellent for 400-gr to 550-gr bullets in the SAAMI .458 WinMag and same with .458 WM+ loads. Best level TBI. Tiny little extruded grains meter very well, like the ball powders.
I just wish all the .458 Win Mag 'haters' would visit this thread... but they'd probably be still in denial!
I should know - I've been arguing with people on various forums for 20 years now over my beloved .458 Win Mag. I've written hunt reports, articles, stories and even given load data and people still refuse to believe on just how good the .458 Winchester Magnum is...
I honestly believe that this thread is without a doubt the leading authority on the .458 Winchester Magnum in the world today, and for this I thank Sir Ron, Sir Bob and all the other knights from the bottom of my heart.
I just wish all the .458 Win Mag 'haters' would visit this thread... but they'd probably be still in denial!
I should know - I've been arguing with people on various forums for 20 years now over my beloved .458 Win Mag. I've written hunt reports, articles, stories and even given load data and people still refuse to believe on just how good the .458 Winchester Magnum is...
I honestly believe that this thread is without a doubt the leading authority on the .458 Winchester Magnum in the world today, and for this I thank Sir Ron, Sir Bob and all the other knights from the bottom of my heart.
To everyone who's contributed... Thank you.
Russ.
Sir Russ, King Four Five Eight wishes for me to tell you that you bring him tears of joy.
Thank you very very much beyond all words such as "buy a buy a donkey," "mercy boo koo boo koo," or "asante sana sana." Long live the King of Cartridges !
The rifle used yesterday with Hodgdon Benchmark/ADI Benchmark, 24-1/4" barrel length, 1:10" twist Pac-Nor No. 5 sporter contour, FN Mauser action (started as a Herter's .30-06), Sunny Hill BM in a B&C stock with NECG 3-pos safety and Timney trigger, it has yet to be Cerakoted:
The optics and scope mounts (Near Mfg rail and Burris low rings) were no impediment to shooting.
One shot to verify newly installed scope is on paper, then a scope adjustment and two more shots to finish fouling, one more scope adjustment then final 5 shots at smaller diamond:
Next five shots with 2 more grains of powder compressed into same COL, 3.380":
That was a surprising increase of velocity for only two grains of powder. Next the COL was increased by 0.100" and two more grains of powder added to the +4.166 grains H20 case capacity increase, accuracy seemed to improve with less compression at 3.480" COL:
Final five shots with the 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.580" COL and 84.0 grains Benchmark, close to a full case load with no compression. "Swift Reloading Manual Number Two" with 400-gr Swift bullet and about "one-caliber" seating depth used 82.5 grains Benchmark for a 93% Load Density (LR/net fill) in Norma brass and 2511 fps MV. That is supposed to be 62,500 psi or less.
The extra throat of .458 WinMag and lower friction of Hammer bullet with PDR bands beats the .458 Lott by just over 100 fps with 1.5 grains more powder:
Last five shots of the day, after two shots to foul with brass bullets since the copper PDR bands left hardly any fouling. Brass is slicker than copper, but the bearing surface of the CEB bands are much greater than the Hammer PDR bands. A non-compressed charge of 78.0 grains Benchmark thus was able to get higher velocity with 400-gr CEB than same charge did with mildly compressed load of 404-gr Shock Hammer:
There were no pressure signs with any of these loads, primers were flattened no more than before they were fired. The Norma brass had very tight primer pockets to start with. By the time the primer was seated, it was pretty well flattened and below flush with the case head's face. There was no cratering of the primer indentations. There was no brass extrusion onto the case head face, no ejector slot smears or bright marks. No stickiness of bolt lift. The cases ejected smoothly, effortlessly, falling out of the chamber.
The Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual singled out Benchmark from the seven propellants they tried in the .458 Winchester Magnum: "Benchmark gives excellent results in this cartridge." That was in reference to Woodleigh bullets from 400-gr to 550-gr. Benchmark offers many possibilities for loading more than just the 404-gr Shock Hammer and 400-gr CEB brass FN at various COLs and performance levels.
Benchmark is the temperature stable powder very close to burn rate of IMR-3031. IMR-3031 was the old standby for the .458 WinMag and 500-grainers at 2150 fps from a 24" barrel. I was doing that in the last century, before the dark age of .458 WinMag denial descended upon the world.
IMR-3031 was an old favorite for use in reduced loads with fillers in the huge Nitro Express cases. Same could be done with Benchmark, for low velocity loads in the .458 WinMag, from .45-70 Gov't. to beyond .458 Lott.
Bless Jack Lott's heart. He always meant for his wildcat to be done in an existing SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber with no setback of the barrel. After he saw what Art Alphin and SAAMI did to the .458 Lott throat, he just could not bear it.
Ron, many thanks for this information! A few questions (definitely too many all at once):
First, where can I get some of those CEB 400 solids? What Lee factory crimp are you using? Are the Norma cases with their extra capacity necessary for use with Benchmark to get these velocities with these 400 grain bullets? Can you see any downside in using the softer Norma cases with high pressure loads? Finally, at this point in your research, do you consider Benchmark a better performer with 400 grain brass bullets than 2230?
Sir Bevan, CEB makes a 400-grain Lever Solid that differs in having a shorter nose projection so it will fit in lever actions. Otherwise it is constructed like the 450-gr and heavier solids. This "Special" 400-gr brass FN was made with the bands moved baseward for a greater nose projection, and also differs in having a greater interband Minor Diameter that is larger, 0.449", only 0.001" less than bore dimeter so it is closer to riding the bore. Michael McCourry designed it for use in his .458 B&M which has less nose room and shorter throat, as well as helping me out by getting something better for loading in the .458 WinMag with 3 bands ahead of case mouth, crimped right up against the bottom of the third band. Trimming brass to 2.490" and seating even closer up against that third band, you can make it 3.340" COL instead of my 3.360". Or seat it with only 2 bands ahead of case mouth and make the COL 3.250".
CEB would have to be asked to make another run of these, they are not a regular catalog item. If I were doing it specifically for the .458 WinMag I would want an even greater nose projection. Move the bands even more baseward, so as to crimp between the 2nd and 3rd bands and get a COL of 3.340". Then I could still crimp behind the third band and get a LongCOL .458 WM+ load also, heh-heh-heh.
The Lee Factory Crimp Die for the .458 WinMag is a standard, regular production item. Used to be about $15. In the Biden economy they are probably a lot more now. Made for many standard calibers. If I see one that I don't have I buy it, whether on dusty shelf or on internet sales catalog.
This batch of Norma .458 WM brass gives no indication of softness. One fire-forming ought to make it hard. I will anneal case mouths after third firing.
Benchmark seems to be as good as AA-2230/AA-2460 and supposed to be more temperature stable, though AA-2230 /AA-2460 ain't bad in any way. Try both and see what you like best.
Given the performance of the CEB BBW#13 450 grain 0.458” bullet @ 2400 fps MV, the 400 grain @ 2500 fps seems interesting.
Sir Khulu, I bet your elephants would be just as dead with the 400-grain CEB FN at 2500 fps MV as they were with 450-grain CEB at 2400 fps MV. The great thing is that the .458 WinMag in your hands can do both.
Benchmark might be a little more bulky than AA-2230/AA-2460, same weight filling a little more volume, but not much. Norma brass is greater capacity, a little more than 4 grains water. Take your pick of Hornady/W-W/R-P/Federal versus Norma. It is all good. The .458 WinMag can do it all with great ease.
Thanks again for all that helpful information. If you had to pick one available 400 grain solid right now (not including the 45-70 CEB), what would it be?
IMR-3031 was an old favorite for use in reduced loads with fillers in the huge Nitro Express cases. Same could be done with Benchmark, for low velocity loads in the .458 WinMag, from .45-70 Gov't. to beyond .458 Lott.
Sir Ron - Would you think any filler would be needed for a light Benchmark load?
Sir Thomas, Yes do use a filler with any Benchmark load of less than 85% LR/net fill. In the .458 I like the caulking backer foam rod of 1/2" diameter, sliced with a fillet knife on a cutting board. It vanishes on firing, no flurry of dacron snow, no flaming toilet paper. If you have any air space to fill slice off a disc of that foam at least twice as tall as the air space and poke it into the case mouth with a dowel. You won't go wrong with that.
Sir Bevan, No good answer other than go heavier with 450-gr CEB. A 400-gr CEB Brass (or copper!) FN with band spacing best for .458 WM versatility is still needed. I will dig up some images related to the quest for this other Holy Grail, for discussion.
Compare the 0.460" nose projection (length ahead of case mouth to meplat flat) on the 400-gr Lever Gun Solid to the 0.750" projection of the 450-gr Safari Solid:
Here is that one-off run of a 400-gr "Special Solid" by CEB and Michael McCourry:
Above are my measurements of single bullets with my verynear calipers.
This is why bands are like that on the 400-gr Special, to keep COL less than 3.0" on the .458 B&M:
"#13" is a generic term for "Bastardfile Bullet Works Nose Profile Number 13" or BBW#13, regardless of length of nose projection. When the nose projection becomes short enough to work in a Marlin M1895 .45-70, it becomes a "Lever Gun" solid instead of a "Safari Solid."
Since it isn't likely I need a heavy solid for anything I am likely to shoot here in the lower 48, how effective would the CEB 325 grain safari solid be when driven fast from a .458 Win?
Sir Bevan, I think you know the answer to that. Actually it performs about as well as the 400-grain "Special" Safari Solid. Just to clarify it for my mind, I reviewed the McCourry Institute of Ballistic "Terminals." There is a 325-gr Lever Gun Solid with 0.460" nose projection and a 325-gr Safari Solid with 0.650" nose projection like on the latest 400-grainer. Nose projection includes the first band in length of projection beyond the case mouth. Short nose projection does not penetrate as well as longer, somewhere over 0.600" does better, seems to be optimum according to MIB "Terminals" for the .458-caliber solids in the high-order test medium tougher than critters by depth of penetration.
Marlin .45-70 velocity, about 2000 fps impact: ~ 37" penetration, 325-gr Lever Gun Solid
Whether 2200 fps or near 2500 fps impact: ~ 52" penetration, 325-gr Safari Solid
Higher velocity and same penetration has to go into some other form of energy dissipation/wound trauma/heat/noise ...
Unfortunately the lower velocity with the Lever Gun solid confuses the issue, but MIB research assures us that longer nose projection (ahead of first CEB band) improves penetration.
Dead elephant shot in skull as a test of 325-gr Safari Solid:
Here is the comparison for 380-gr Lehigh Copper WFN, near 2200 fps impact: ~ 41" penetration
The wider, sharper edged meplat transmits trauma to tissues well if not aiding penetration.
After 450-grains of FN solid, little is gained by increasing weight, a shorter bullet is inherently more stable:
The Bastardfile Bullet Works #13 (BBW#13) nose profile is the better nose profile with meplat of about 67% of caliber (65% to 70% of .458" is 0.300" to 0.321" for about optimum), and 13* hemi-angle on the truncated nose cone, 26* cone angle.
Brass is harder than pure copper, but the Hammer Bullets copper, which has a little sulfur alloyed (fire and brimstone), ought to be hard enough for use as FN solid, if only Hammer bullets could be convinced to do their first ever FN solid.
Maybe use the BBW#13 nose profile on top of a Parabolic Drag Reduction shaft. The entire length of bullet might become "nose projection." Crimp in second PDR trough for use in a no-throat .45-70 Gov't. chambering, load longer for .458 B&M, even longer in .458 WinMag, heh-heh-heh ...
... or see if CEB will make the 400-gr Safari Solid with 0.750" nose projection, and spread the bands equidistantly instead of the 3+1 with big gap ahead of base band. Keep all the diameters same as on the latest "special order" CEB .458-caliber 400-grain brass FN ...
The McCourry Institute of Ballistics report on the .458 Winchester Magnum from 10/13/2023 is greatly appreciated, as is the entire body of work at MIB.
20″ M70 barrel, Winchester brass, F215 primer, 78 grains of Benchmark
400-gr CEB brass FN solid with 0.650″ nose projection (not Lever Gun solid) 3.330″ COL
MV mean for two shots: 2399 fps 3 fps ES
Pressure mean for two shots: 64,200 psi 1200 psi ES
Since I used the larger case capacity Norma brass, and longer COL, and am prepared to load to 65,000 psi like with the .416 Remington Magnum and .270 WCF, I am quite happy with that. Benchmark should ease any fears of pressure excursions in the equatorial and polar regions of the planet. One planet, one rifle. Ought to work on Mars too.
My brass lots compared for once-fired, not resized, 2.500"-length (mathematical correction): W-W Super (post 1996) = 94.9 gr H2O gross Latest Norma: 99.3 gr H2O = 4.4 grains bigger
94.9/99.3 = 95.57% volume for W-W compared to Norma
PV = nRT
If pressure with W-W = 68,500 psi then pressure with Norma = 65,465 psi
Changing COL from 3.420" to 3.580" for longest COL with 404-gr Shock Hammer:
Loading 0.160" longer COL adds 6.7 gr H20 to net case capacity.
Norma brass plus 0.160" longer COL will increase net case capacity by 11.1 grains H2O, versus W-W at shorter COL.
Net case capacity with 0.52" seating depth in W-W brass = 73.2 gr H2O at 3.420" COL. Net case capacity with 0.36" seating depth in Norma brass = 84.3 gr H2O at 3.580" COL.
PV = nRT
(68,500 psi) X (73.2/84.3) = 59,480 psi for my 2612 fps accuracy load in a 24-1/4" Pac-Nor barrel.
That is if Universal Gas Law can be applied like this. Heh-heh-heh.
Since it isn't likely I need a heavy solid for anything I am likely to shoot here in the lower 48, how effective would the CEB 325 grain safari solid be when driven fast from a .458 Win?
Sir Jerry is still alive, been busy planning his next safari, among other things. Here is his 7mmRemMag FN Browning Medallion that has been fired three times since it left Belgium in 1965.
He finally scoped it, maybe it is his Wife's rifle ? We know Jerry has that rifle's twin (almost) in .458 WinMag:
We also know Sir Jerry favors a .458 WM+ Winchester Model 70 Classic in .458 WinMag:
Blesbok at 176 yards meets 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2518 fps MV:
Exit wound:
Maybe Sir Jerry will get his video clips on Youtube one day. Until then, we enjoy low resolution pics of pics of pics of pics of pics. But it is all good.
Very helpful info on the solids, and many thanks, Sir Ron. For the life of me, though, I can't figure out why a greater nose projection yields greater penetration. Is it because weight is shifted back with the full-caliber driving bands, and so gives a more stable spin?
Very helpful info on the solids, and many thanks, Sir Ron. For the life of me, though, I can't figure out why a greater nose projection yields greater penetration. Is it because weight is shifted back with the full-caliber driving bands, and so gives a more stable spin?
Sir Bevan,
Though it has been empirically proven by MIB, I do not fully understand the science behind longer nose projection increasing penetration, for two CEB BBW#13 brass solids of same weight and impact velocity. 0.650" nose projection penetrates better than 0.460" nose projection, quite well demonstrated with the two 325-grainers, Lever Gun Solid and Safari Solid, ditto the 400-gr Lever Gun Solid (0.460" NP) and the 400-gr "Special-Order" Safari Solid (0.650" NP). I am thinking it has more to do with the drag being reduced by the optimum meplat size (67%) with a rounded bevel on edge of meplat, 13* hemi-angle of the truncated cone sides, and a long enough nose projection. Maybe the nose projection is only involved as the bullet slows down and the "super-cavitation bubble" collapses and the sides of the bullet nose begin getting wetted? A longer smooth nose would then reduce drag ... maybe ?
But it seems that the Lever Gun Solids were tested at "Marlin Velocities," 2000 fps and 1900 fps impacts, while the Safari Solids were tested at "Bolt Action Velocities," in the 2200 to 2500 fps range, IIRC.
It would be interesting to see how the short NP and long NP of same weight CEB brass FN compare when both impact at same velocity, lower velocity like 1800- to 2000-ish fps for both. If only I could find that in the MIB lab data somewhere, I have missed it so far ...
That high velocity impact of the 325-gr/.458 Lever Gun Solid versus Safari Solid is the link that I was missing. The missing link that proves the theory of evolution. Long Nose Projection Evolution. Doc M is on the ball, or on the bullet, on call 24-7, I asked and he provided. Many thanks to the McCourry Institute of Ballistics.
Same impact velocity,
same caliber and weight of monometal brass FN solid,
same nose shape except length of parallel sides below the truncated cone portion
and
longer projection penetrates better than short projection:
Sir Jerry shot a cape buffalo at 31 yards. It was a "high shoulder" hit in the tall grass, with 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2518 fps MV from .458 WM+ load. Rifle barrel was 24" long, a JES rebore of a stainless .375 M70 Classic barrel on an M70 Classic action, walnut stocked, with SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber.
The bullet exited the offside shoulder. The dagga boy dropped dead right there.
Just before bullet impact at 31 yards:
Puff of dust (powdered dagga) comes off the bull at impact:
Sir Ron, that same velocity data with the lever gun vs safari solid penetration is fascinating. Does this mean that if one turned down the front driving band on either bullet to the bullet nose diameter, one could instantly gain 6-8 inches of penetration? Seems almost like magic.
Seems also that this is another reason that the 458 WM+ is superior to the Lott: it allows a longer nose projection with these solids, yielding deeper penetration.
Sir Bevan, Hard to understand that nose projection thing but understand we must. The 400-gr/.458 with 0.750" NP might out-do the 400-gr/.458 with 0.650" NP ... Hoping to find that with a lot of help from MIB and CEB.
When CEB specifies a Nose Projection for the brass FN solids at their web site that includes the width of the leading band (about 0.050") I do believe. So a 0.650" NP has 0.600" smooth length from meplat to start of first band. A 0.460" NP has 0.410" smooth length. The 0.750" NP would be slick for the first 0.700", same as on the 450-gr/.458 Safari Solid.
The latest explanation of theory from Doc M (Michael McCourry) at MIB, quoted below:
A little more information, or theory, whichever.. concerning the Nose Projection.
As we see the comparison of the .458 caliber 325 gr bullets at over 2500 fps the longer nose projection really proves itself. I believe in the “Bubble” created by the big Flat Nose Solids………. The bubble is what the bullet rides in, and if the meplat is perfectly shaped and aligned the bullet rides for a long deep journey in its terminal state. Lots of things can disrupt the bubble during the ride, if the bullet is not perfectly designed.
Now, Nose Projection, one of the very last factors discovered. This can be two part, or considered in two ways, both leading to the same conclusion. The shorter nose projection makes the base of the bullet longer behind the nose projection. With this, I believe the bubble is collapsing on the base of the bullet, causing drag on the rear, perhaps collapsing just in front of the bottom band. While straight line penetration is not really effected, this drag slows the bullet faster and does not allow it to penetrate as deep. Now, the longer nose projection has a shorter bullet base, pushing the bubble out and around the base of the bullet, collapsing behind the base of the bullet, no drag at all…… deeper penetration.
Now, next step is very low velocity, lets just say less than 1800 fps for a starting point. If we take the 325 .600 longer nose projection and drop the velocity to close to 1600 fps, we find that it basically equals the depth of penetration of the short nose projection 325 at a much higher velocity of over 2500 fps…… We know that the higher velocity creates a bigger, longer lasting bubble, and with no drag on the longer nose projection the more velocity, deeper the penetration….
While the longer nose does penetrate some deeper at lower velocity, the amount of that is much less than the higher velocity, so velocity becomes a factor in nose projection as well, with both designs. However, less effect with the short nose projection from low to high velocity………
Now, lets look at some work done with the Short Nose projection 400 gr #13 Solid, Lever Solid………
Here we have a rather high velocity test at 2370 fps in the 1:14 twist rate 458 B&M. We see 40-41 inches penetration.
Here tested in 458 Super Short same 1:14 twist rate, velocity 1819 fps……… I don’t believe there is any substantial difference here, while the super short might be two inches more, I think that is more of a difference in test medium than anything else…….
And last a test in Sam’s double rifle at 1679 fps, unknown twist rate at test time……… and again, 40-41 inches of penetration.
Velocity has made no change in the 400 gr short Lever Nose Projection bullet. Perhaps ? the bubble is collapsing further up on the bullet base basically causing all to react the same? I really don’t know. Perhaps if we broke that 2500 fps mark with the bullet we would see some depth increases. We just don’t see it between 1679 and 2370…….
Now enter our latest new Solid, the 400 gr CEB #13 Safari, longer nose projection solid at 2300 fps……… Depth of penetration showing up with the longer nose projection, bubble collapsing behind the bullet, instead of causing drag on the base.
Now one might argue, or consider… why did SD not take over with the 400 Long Nose as opposed to nearly the same penetration with the 325 longer nose?????? Take a look at the VELOCITY……. The 325 started out at 275 fps faster than the 400……Still making SD the “Last” factor in solid penetration…….. Velocity trumped SD………
So velocity does aid penetration with the FN solid in the MIB test media, but the NOSE PROJECTION must be factored in too, relative to the base length of the bullet. More important than weight for caliber/SD.
I bet it works the same on bovine, hippo, rhino, giraffe, elephant, bears, walrus and for whales.
Here is hoping that CEB catalogs a regular offer of 400-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid with longer nose projection than the 400-gr/.458 CEB Lever Gun Solid. Cheers.
Very, very good information. Thank you, Sir Ron. I think in the absence of the 400 grain long nose, I will try out some of those 325 Safari Solids. Since I have never shot a lighter weight bullet than 400 grains in my .458, and since velocity has been shown to be important with this bullet, which powder would be optimal for highest velocity at reasonable pressures?
So velocity does aid penetration with the FN solid in the MIB test media, but the NOSE PROJECTION must be factored in too, relative to the base length of the bullet. More important than weight for caliber/SD.
I bet it works the same on bovine, hippo, rhino, giraffe, elephant, bears, walrus and for whales.
Here is hoping that CEB catalogs a regular offer of 400-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid with longer nose projection than the 400-gr/.458 CEB Lever Gun Solid. Cheers.
Yes, but how much and with which bullet? There were two different velocity penetration tests with the 325 grain Safari Solid on the same day.
Velocity Impact 2472 fps = 52"
Velocity Impact 2226 fps = 51 & 52"
An extra 246 fps did not provide much to any additional penetration in the test media.
Sir Bevan, My first thought is: Use H4198 with the 325-gr Safari Solid.
Sir Bob and I have used up to 81 grains of H4198 with the 350-gr TSX getting to +2800 fps with that bullet in the .458 WM+. I loaded mine to 3.440" COL.
Here are some low pressure loads with the 325-gr CEB Safari Solid in a 24"-barreled Winchester M70 .458 WM, MIB data done by Doc M in 2013:
Standard-capacity brass, not Norma, most likely Winchester brass case, Short COL, 3.340" or less F-215 primer
65 gr H4198, 2 shots: 2413 fps and 2412 fps, ES 1 fps, mean velocity = 2412.5 fps, mean pressure = 47,805 psi 69 gr H4198, 2 shots: 2547 fps and 2546 fps, ES 1 fps, mean velocity = 2546.5 fps, mean pressure = 54,605 psi
You can do similarly with RL-7 grain-for-grain, possibly giving slightly higher velocity at slightly lower pressure, but with greater lot-to-lot variability and temperature instability, greater ES and maybe not as accurate.
I would need only H4198 for the 325-gr Safari Solid, starting with 70 grains and working up.
I tried AA-1680 with light bullets and it was wild in the .458 WM. Save it for handgun loads.
There were two different velocity penetration tests with the 325 grain Safari Solid on the same day.
Velocity Impact 2472 fps = 52"
Velocity Impact 2226 fps = 51 & 52"
An extra 246 fps did not provide much to any additional penetration in the test media.
I saw other examples where the 450-gr Safari Solid gave similar penetration at 2200-ish fps impact and 2400-ish impact. I attributed that to higher order impact media getting more resistant at higher velocity, like real game animals. Could be variability in the impact media beyond Doc M's control. Overall we are seeing a picture of speed increasing the penetration, but that doesn't mean I have stopped scratching my head and wondering about statistical significance of 2, 3, or 4 shots. Maybe one more bullet test is needed. 400-gr/.458 with .650" NP versus .750" NP at low velocity and high velocity. Heh-heh-heh. It sure is hard looking the gift horse in the mouth, but eventually we must.
I believe there could be a velocity "wall" regarding resistance. But, is it unique to each bullet weight ? What single factor or combinations of factors in the design minimizes or maximizes it, or neutralizes it ? All beyond my level of investigative capabilities.
The .458, 325 grain Safari Solid is impressive to me. It is the poster child for sectional density is not the single holy grail factor for penetration. Perhaps that is why I am so fond of it. Plus as a hard cast flat point fan, I think it is one handsome bullet. The lever gun version certainly enhances the 45-70.
The limited-penetration solids as in the .458 North Fork Expanding Cup Point Solids in 325 & 350 grain would be pretty potent for anything in North America. The 350 grain in the 458 Winchester & Lott gets my vote for the In-The-Timber bullet.
The .458's pretty much have a bullet for all occasions.
I believe there could be a velocity "wall" regarding resistance. But, is it unique to each bullet weight ? What single factor or combinations of factors in the design minimizes or maximizes it, or neutralizes it ? All beyond my level of investigative capabilities.
Super-Penetrator Imaginary Bullet:
The CEB Safari Solid is about as perfect as yet to be found, according to the MIB tests, but still questions remain about that asymptote ...
The .458, 325 grain Safari Solid is impressive to me. It is the poster child for sectional density is not the single holy grail factor for penetration. Perhaps that is why I am so fond of it. Plus as a hard cast flat point fan, I think it is one handsome bullet. The lever gun version certainly enhances the 45-70.
The limited-penetration solids as in the .458 North Fork Expanding Cup Point Solids in 325 & 350 grain would be pretty potent for anything in North America. The 350 grain in the 458 Winchester & Lott gets my vote for the In-The-Timber bullet.
The .458's pretty much have a bullet for all occasions.
Can't disagree with any of that.
I am stuck on the 400-grainer for everything, but always willing to give any .458 bullet a go in the .458 WinMag. No doubt the most versatile rifle in the world if judged by greatest range of useful bullets from 250-gr monometal to 750-gr cast, and many many in between. 405-grainer is where we started with the .45-70 Gov't. 150 years ago. In 400-ish-grainers alone I can now find one for most uses of the .458 WinMag. A sample of 400-grainers along the way to the 404-gr Shock Hammer and 400-gr CEB Safari Solid:
Scorned by Hammer for an FN Solid, so far ... Had to shorten a Barnes Banded down to 400-grains with my bastard file.
I will add the 404 Shock Hammer has my vote for the best on the market, one-and-done expanding bullet choice. It pretty much covers beaver through buffalo exceptionally well.
I've been both satisfied and impressed with the performance of the CEB BBW #13 SS FP in the 0.458" cartridges. For the 458 WM, especially when magazine constrained to 3.340", the 450 grain SS retains all the practical penetration of the 500 gn SS and yields 2400 FPS.
The relationship of the exposed nose length and meplat, as Sir Ron has already discussed, is key to straight line penetration. It is especially so when tough bones must be either perforated or shattered on the way to the vital target organ.
For the larger 0.458" caliber DGR cases I have experience with - 460 G&A, 450 Rigby Rimless - and by extrapolation 450 Dakota, 460 Wby, etc. - the 500 gn BBW #13 SS FP, yields 2400 fps or greater, with the attendant additional straight line penetration. Splitting hairs, but for bull elephants I prefer the 500 gn in the larger cases and for the tuskless, the 450 gn in the 458 WM or WM+, as they seem the optimally efficient choices. No need to resort to undue powder compression or overly high chamber pressures with these bullet to achieve stellar results in the field.
No aspersions on the 458 WM/WM+ for bull elephants, but if a loony has a bigger hammer, why not nail bigger eles with it? After all, it's about fun and games, even when up close and in among them!!
...Referring to the ,458WM. Quiz question: Who made the following statement in print? "Several improved versions have appeared which are made by firing factory loads in the improved chamber. These versions make it possible to increase the velocity slightly, but it is doubtful if more power is necessary until safaris are possible on Mars or some other planet."
Sir Khulu, Yep, it is all good, as long as it is not a SAAMI .458 Lott. Even the original wildcat .458 Lott "Like Jack Built" is a good one. I shot my first "buffalo" with a 460 WbyMag and factory ammo, 500-grain RNSP. What fun ! Now I prefer the .458 WinMag above all else, even if restricted to 3.4" mag box length instead of 3.6" or 3.8". It's all good there too.
Originally Posted by TSIBINDI
...Referring to the ,458WM. Quiz question: Who made the following statement in print? "Several improved versions have appeared which are made by firing factory loads in the improved chamber. These versions make it possible to increase the velocity slightly, but it is doubtful if more power is necessary until safaris are possible on Mars or some other planet."
Sir Ele Hunter, nice trivia:
P.O. Ackley in the comments blurb with the load data in his 2-volume book, when he got to the .458 Winchester Magnum listing. Page 500, Vol. I of his HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS & RELOADERS. A favorite passage.
(Sir John, it was a joke. P.O. Ackley had a sense of humor.)
On page 501, next in the listings is the .450 Watts Magnum. P.O. Ackley states that the .450 Watts Magnum was the forerunner of the .450 Ackley Magnum. Cheers!
Toughest animal to encounter a 404-gr Shock Hammer on Sir Jerry's .458 WinMag Safari, one of the 3 (out of 9) that ran a few yards, not DRT on impact:
Sable, shot at 88 yards, had the longest run after impact: 33 yards.
Grazing until turning broadside:
Bullet impact:
Hunches:
Jump start of the 33-yard run:
We have some better images coming up, related to Sir Jerry's next safari battery, the two FN Brownings (7mm RemMag and .458 WinMag) and maybe he or his Wife will take a third rifle, something really special. A 1949 vintage Winchester M70 Super Grade in .22 Hornet !!! Perfect set of training wheels for the M70 African .458 WinMag.
Bullets: 175-gr Speer Grand Slam for the 7mmRemMag. 450-gr CEB Safari Solid for the .458 WinMag. 45-gr Barnes TSX for the .22 Hornet. To be continued
...Referring to the ,458WM. Quiz question: Who made the following statement in print? "Several improved versions have appeared which are made by firing factory loads in the improved chamber. These versions make it possible to increase the velocity slightly, but it is doubtful if more power is necessary until safaris are possible on Mars or some other planet."
Sir Ele Hunter, nice trivia:
P.O. Ackley in the comments blurb with the load data in his 2-volume book, when he got to the .458 Winchester Magnum listing. Page 500, Vol. I of his HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS & RELOADERS. A favorite passage.
(Sir John, it was a joke. P.O. Ackley had a sense of humor.)
On page 501, next in the listings is the .450 Watts Magnum. P.O. Ackley states that the .450 Watts Magnum was the forerunner of the .450 Ackley Magnum. Cheers!
Bear with me, we will eventually get back to the .458 WinMag. Yesterday in OK:
Sir Jerry has a .458 WinMag FN Browning, yep the one like Ron "Mahohboh" Thomson used to cull 5000 or 6000 elephant, and carried in backup on thousands more. "Anyway ... what does it matter? What's a few thousand elephant between friends!" (Mahohboh quote.)
But yesterday Sir Jerry was getting his light rifle ready for the safari with two FN Brownings, a 7mm RemMag and a .458 WinMag. I suspect his wife might be using the 7mm.
That 7mmRemMag load is the maximum load in the Speer Handloading Manual Number 15. Speer ballisticians used COL of 3.220" with the 175-gr Grand Slam, same as Sir Jerry, apparently he was influenced by the Speer manual. They got 2954 fps from a 24" barrel. Sir Jerry got 2948 fps. G1 BC of the bullet is 0.436. That would add about 10 fps to get his MV if he did not correct chrono to MV. Close enough. H870 too, bless its heart !
I suspect Sir Jerry used this .22 Hornet as his training wheels for the M70 .458 WM+, which he shot just as accurately.
Nice pairs. Two excellent combos of an elephant rifle and a pest rifle. FN Brownings and M70 Winchesters. The man has great taste.
Favorite quote from Richard Harland, another culler of five or six thousand elephant in his long career as game ranger, also favoring an FN M98 Mauser .458 Winchester Magnum, a custom one-off:
"If a WattLottAckleyWeatherbyRigbyDakotaWhatsitWildcat is what you cannot live without, get it and be happy. If you own a .458 WM rifle though, rest assured you already have one of the best elephant calibres ever designed."
Oh yes, almost forgot. Sir Jerry said he was planning to use the CEB 450-gr Safari Solid in his FN Browning .458 WinMag on his next safari, ready for elephant:
A review:
If I find any specifics on Sir Jerry's load (believed to be about 2300 fps with 450-grainer), i will post it here if he doesn't mind.
Sir Khulu has already proved the bullet at 2400 fps from a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag, IIRC. Kills elephant, no problems.
Hello Sir Ron, many thanks for posting the pics of a couple pairs of rifles for use in future safari's, the two FN Browning's will go together, the mighty 458 will handle the heavy lifting, 7mm for plains game up to and including Eland, maybe even a big 450lb kitty cat.
The little 22 Hornet was took out and checked so it can go with the 458 WM+ i used on last safari, i only have two of the tiny ten, the Hornet can handlle the other eight species with ease out to 200 yards with 45gr TSX's at 2922 fps, again, the 458 WM+ will easily handle the rest.
Those Browning FN's long extractors are beautiful. For my eye appeal they are near or at the top of the list. I was star struck with them as a kid. I was able to acquire a very good condition Safari Grade in 30-06 a few to several years ago. One in 458 Winchester would be top dog.
My pleasure, Sir Jerry. I wonder if one could find a bullet and MV in the .22 Hornet to mimic the trajectory of the 404-gr Shock Hammer at about 2518 fps ? Training wheels load for practice on the field course. Might not tear up the rest of the Tiny Ten on the ticket. Think of taxidermy charges for repairing the hides. Sort of like playing putt-putt golf to keep your putt accurate. Heh-heh-heh.
Speaking of your great photography over the years, here is a killer still life, includes your Bagwell Bowie:
Also the .458 WM+ loads in your Winchester M70 Classic, rebore by JES:
That 500-gr/.458 Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer is only 1.400" long, about 0.015" shorter than the CEB 450-gr/.458 Safari Solid.
That Lab Radar data came from the 24"-barreled Ruger No. 1, a SAAMI .458 WinMag rifle, at 80*F, GM215M primer.
It is still a tough choice between the CEB 450-grainer at 2300 to 2400 fps (3.360" COL) versus the TBSS 500-grainer at 2300 to 2400 fps (3.550" COL) from a .458 WM+ handload in a 24"-barreled rifle chambered with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer.
I used to laugh when a Lottite claimed to be getting 2400 fps with a 500-gr bullet in his SAAMI .458 Lott with 24" barrel. The SAAMI .458 WinMag with .458 WM+ handload can certainly do that at lower pressure than a SAAMI .458 Lott.
I am wishing upon a star tonight for a CEB 400-gr/.458 Safari Solid with 0.750" nose projection including that first band. That will likely decide me for the 400-grain/.458 FN solid at 2500 fps and 3.360" COL in a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag.
I am wishing upon a star tonight for a CEB 400-gr/.458 Safari Solid with 0.750" nose projection including that first band. That will likely decide me for the 400-grain/.458 FN solid at 2500 fps and 3.360" COL in a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag.
I am wishing upon a star tonight for a CEB 400-gr/.458 Safari Solid with 0.750" nose projection including that first band. That will likely decide me for the 400-grain/.458 FN solid at 2500 fps and 3.360" COL in a 24"-barreled .458 WinMag.
Hala Loua, I want some of those
Amen. COLs possible with those CEB bands (belts) and 0.750" nose projection from a 2.500" case length: 3.250" two belts in one belt out 3.350" two belts out and one belt in 3.450" all three belts forward of case mouth and suspenders crimp on 0.449" minor diameter below that third belt. Belted only or belted and suspendered.
Here is hoping that CEB catalogs a regular offer of 400-gr/.458 CEB Safari Solid with longer nose projection than the 400-gr/.458 CEB Lever Gun Solid. Cheers.
Maybe we could persuade CEB to make the 400 grain with a group buy
I never get tired of reading these great informative posts and viewing the great eye candy. Especially the Bagwell Bowie Sir Jerry kindly displayed for us to view.
Sir Ron your work is exemplary of a constant Love for a very rewarding Hobby for many.
Sir John, Let us see what Doc M at MIB in SC can get Dan at CEB in ID to do. Dan was out hunting past week, and will need some time to unpack, catch up with his email backlog, etc. There is hope.
Sir Tony, Asante sana sana, truly the love is for the .458 WinMag, best hobby in the world.
There is word from Doc M of MIB that Dan at CEB is on it. They will call it "something like DGBR 458 400 LNP." LNP is for Long Nose Projection of 0.750", same as the nose projection on the 450-gr/.458 Safari Solid. Next time they run the .458-caliber bullets there should be a new one.
There is word from Doc M of MIB that Dan at CEB is on it. They will call it "something like DGBR 458 400 LNP." LNP is for Long Nose Projection of 0.750", same as the nose projection on the 450-gr/.458 Safari Solid. Next time they run the .458-caliber bullets there should be a new one.
PART # 40624 458 WINCHESTER MAG. 500GR SAFARI PARTITION AMMUNITION BE THE FIRST TO REVIEW THIS PRODUCT 458 Winchester Mag. 500gr Safari Partition® Ammunition $196.49 OUT OF STOCK
About $10 for each trigger pull. No wonder Jim Shockey used a one-shot technique for scope adjustment:
Yes, one-shot kill. Ammo cost per bear = $10.
DG at 250 yards is not DG you say ? More like a meat hunt for the local village, and dollars paid by Shockey/Nosler contribute to protecting the bears from the hungry comrades. Well, that is the way the Russians do it, and Shockey does in Rome what the Romans do, regrettably spouting Marxist drivel at the conclusion of the episode. Hopefully that was just tongue in cheek ironic humor from a capitalist invader, sponsored by Nosler.
Only $5 per trigger pull, and "it will keel" as well as the Nosler ammo for half the price. The only way to improve on the value (better quality at lower price) is to handload !
A closer look at the "Norma Swift" factory load with 500-gr A-Frame bullet:
Nice "Factory Crimp" on the factory ammo. Short-grain extruded powder is right at base of bullet when loaded, no compression, about 100% LR/net fill. That is 0.3 grains over maximum of the Reloading Manual for Norma 201. If we let the brass grow to 2.500" and seated and crimped at same seating depth, COL would be 3.335" which rounds to 3.34" heh-heh-heh.
Loos like a good Cape buffalo and probably brown bear load. The Swift AF, at least in 0.423” driven at MV 2375+, is definitive on buffalo. Great penetration, rapid results.
No reason to believe the 0.458” 500 gr won’t deliver the same results.
The current problem is that in 0.423” 400 grain form, the Swift AF has proven an elusive target. I’m hoping Swift doesn’t make itself totally irrelevant in the reloading market due to “Out of stock,” just about everywhere I’ve looked. Is the 0.458” 500 grain readily available as a reloading component?
I’m hanging on to my last dozen for an unexpected exigent opportunity with one of the 404s, probably the 404-375 Ruger in the Alaskan, if I make it back to the Great Land for a go at another brown!!
I’ve been cogitating on a Near rail for the Win M-70 460 G&A Pachy Slayer. Is there sufficient clearance at the loading port for rapid reloads? The current Leupold scope on it now is very similar in size to your 2.5x.
I consider it no impediment to loading with my nimble fingers. But do not blame me if it gets you killed, heh-heh-heh. It is so trustworthy, having recoil stop on bottom, that I trust it with no J-B Weld and no change of 6x48 to 8x40 screws, whether optic is 2 pounds or 2 ounces:
You can get them with zero tilt or 20 MOA, 25 MOA, etc., custom tilts. Above is either 20 MOA or 25 MOA, but does have one or the other of those commonly requested tilts. I have 3 of them now and am starting to get confused.
Should be helpful for hitting 3-foot square bullseye at 1000 yards, with a 2.5X scope.
Bullet availability: I will do some looking. Like you, I have some old stock, but not enough !.
The celebrity known as jwp475 aka Sir John is on the mend from double pneumonia and an awfully painful pleurisy. Best wishes for a speedy recovery and no lapse in his spreading of pearls of wisdom. Here he is cutting his teeth on moose and griz with the first .475 Linebaugh revolver from the shop of that other John circa 1988:
In a very educational and entertaining telephone call with jwp475, we talked about how Otto Candies, Jr. took a huge bull elephant with a .475 Linebaugh Revolver, whether 1.4" or 1.6" (.475 Maximum) I don't recall. Maybe jwp475 can elaborate. Anyway, the interesting thing was that Ross Seyfried had tried cutting the 500-gr/.475 Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer down to 400 grains, by whacking off the base of the bullet. Ross could not get his loads to not jump the crimp. John Linebaugh was able to perfect the load for Otto Candies, Jr. He applied LOCTITE in the cannelure before applying the crimp. The cut-down TBSS worked on a frontal brain shot on the big bull elephant of Otto Candies, Jr.
What kind of LOCTITE ? Blue, green or red ? This technique may be useful for me in the future. Seal your primer with lacquer and seal your crimp with LOCTITE.
Maybe some of that faulty Democrat-loaded .458 WinMag ammo from the Jimmy Carter era could have used a better glue on the bullets that could be twirled in the case mouth with fingers ?
The celebrity known as jwp475 aka Sir John is on the mend from double pneumonia and an awfully painful pleurisy. Best wishes for a speedy recovery and no lapse in his spreading of pearls of wisdom. Here he is cutting his teeth on moose and griz with the first .475 Linebaugh revolver from the shop of that other John circa 1988:
In a very educational and entertaining telephone call with jwp475, we talked about how Otto Candies, Jr. took a huge bull elephant with a .475 Linebaugh Revolver, whether 1.4" or 1.6" (.475 Maximum) I don't recall. Maybe jwp475 can elaborate. Anyway, the interesting thing was that Ross Seyfried had tried cutting the 500-gr/.475 Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer down to 400 grains, by whacking off the base of the bullet. Ross could not get his loads to not jump the crimp. John Linebaugh was able to perfect the load for Otto Candies, Jr. He applied LOCTITE in the cannelure before applying the crimp. The cut-down TBSS worked on a frontal brain shot on the big bull elephant of Otto Candies, Jr.
What kind of LOCTITE ? Blue, green or red ? This technique may be useful for me in the future. Seal your primer with lacquer and seal your crimp with LOCTITE.
JWP will get better pretty quick I’d bet. He’s a tough hombre!
Maybe some of that faulty Democrat-loaded .458 WinMag ammo from the Jimmy Carter era could have used a better glue on the bullets that could be twirled in the case mouth with fingers ?
I still have a partial box of Remington Safari Grade, 450 grain A-Frame 458 Winchester that a few of the cartridges have that free-spin crimp. I think these are sometime maybe mid 1990's. I do recall not being overjoyed with that twist.
Thank you Sir Ron for the well wishes. Otto used the Maximum case at 1.6".John Linebaugh loaded the ammo for Otto. My revolver in the picture was built by Hamilton Bowen in 475 Linebaugh. That hunt was 1988
Maybe some of that faulty Democrat-loaded .458 WinMag ammo from the Jimmy Carter era could have used a better glue on the bullets that could be twirled in the case mouth with fingers ?
I still have a partial box of Remington Safari Grade, 450 grain A-Frame 458 Winchester that a few of the cartridges have that free-spin crimp. I think these are sometime maybe mid 1990's. I do recall not being overjoyed with that twist.
Sir Larry, Clinton era ammo saboteurs too, you say ? Handloads only then, when POTUS is a Democrap.
Sir John, Oops. Makes sense you had a Hamilton Bowen firstie .475 Linebaugh. If it was a John Linebaugh first-off it would be in a museum. Please excuse my brain fart. Blue LOCTITE on .475 Linebaugh for TBSH revolver ammo crimping is what I am thinking. Maybe red LOCTITE on any remanufacturing of Democrap era .458 WinMag ammo.
I am not able to find any H4198 powder to use with the 325 grain CEB safari solid in 458 Win. Would IMR4198 be a good alternative, or is there a better option for this application?
I have some trial loads of 458 Winchester with the 325 grain CEB Safari Solid loaded with Reloader 7. At the rate that I and winter are progressing, it might be spring before I get them to the range. I have had them loaded since this past spring.
Sir Ron, Those Remington Safari loads are quite possibly clinton-era loads.
I have some trial loads of 458 Winchester with the 325 grain CEB Safari Solid loaded with Reloader 7. At the rate that I and winter are progressing, it might be spring before I get them to the range. I have had them loaded since this past spring.
Sir Ron, Those Remington Safari loads are quite possibly clinton-era loads.
Sir Larry, Clinton era sabotage is definitely suspected.
At Sir Bevan's powder choice, you and Sir John got the two alternatives I would suggest first, IMR-4198 and RL-7. I used those early on in .458 WinMag with 400-grainers, and IMR-3031 with 500-grainers. Now prefer the H4198 and BENCHMARK replacements respectively for IMR-4198 and IMR-3031. With a bullet as light as 325-grainer, RL-7 might be the cat's meow, awaiting results from Sir Larry.
I always had better results, for one reason or another with H4198, even with bullets as light as the 250-grainer (GMX) and 300-grainer (TSX). H4198 is a tad slower, right next to IMR-4198, and two tads slower than RL-7, but more temperature stable and less lot-to-lot variation, and responds better to mild compression if you want to go faster, IMHO.
H332 is a tad slower than, right next to, H4198 but has same excellent qualities of the EXTREME line from Hodgdon. And don't forget BENCHMARK, and H4895. From 60% to 110% LR/net fill, H4895 will do it all, right on up to 2600 fps with 400-grainer in a 24" barreled .458 WM+ handload. Might work well for fair to middlin' loads with the 325-grainer if you compress it some. If you want faster MV, use IMR-4198 or RL-7 until you can find the H4198.
And then there is all that new stuff, bunch of ball powders, many touted with temperature stability, many having copper-fouling-eliminator additives, etc. All being better at packing a greater weight of powder in a given space, Especially those with flattened balls or a mix of round and flattened balls. Any powder good for the .223/5.56 is good for the .458 WinMag. What's good for General Bull Moose is good for the USA, that kind of thing.
And great news has come from Sir Larry that there is a new Ammo Supplier to compete with Buffalo Bore. Boy howdy do they !
Aria Ballistic Engineering: "ABE Ammo" is hopefully honest as Abe. They have a physical address, telephone number and email on contact page.
Using Hammer, CEB, TSX and hardcast/gas-checked bullets that are loaded for the .458 WinMag is of most interest. Whether they are using a SAAMI MAP or a CIP MAP, well they are a USA maker. They are also loading same bullets in the .458 Lott at almost .458 WM+ levels. I think they must have been reading here and at the Hammer Bullets forum.
The 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer was conceived at this 24hr Campfire thread and birthed at Hammer Bullets in 2022. I made the first order for those bullets on January 18, 2022, had them in hand six days later. Already it has taken the world by storm. No mere component bullet now. It is in commercially loaded ammo by ABE. The 404-gr Shock Hammer and CEB 450-gr Safari Solids may not be pictured below, but can be found in the listings for each cartridge. This suggests that the website photos were taken before those two were added to the offerings. CEB Raptors, Hawk bullets, and the ELR bullets by CEB and Hammer may also be found in various cartridge offerrings. Lots of rifle, handgun and shotgun offerings. Whew !!!
404-gr Shock Hammer MV & KE from the selected loads below, as listed by ABE:
.460 Weatherby Magnum (CIP COL and MAP) 23.5" barrel: 2700 fps/6473 ft-lbs
Once again we see hints at the HORNADY lab data that drove Ross Seyfried insane, resulting in his "denial" of the .458 Winchester Magnum: If the .458 WinMag and the .458 Lott are kept to SAAMI standards, the .458 Lott has only a 50 fps MV advantage over the .458 WinMag with a 500 grain bullet. 2250 fps MV versus 2200 fps MV respectively. That is with a longer COL and higher chamber pressure for the .458 Lott. If we allow the .458 WinMag same COL and MAP as the .458 Lott it becomes the .458 WM+ and leaves the .458 Lott far behind in its dust. (Where is the kissmyazz emoji when you need one ?)
In the ABE example here, the .458 Lott got a half-inch longer barrel, and the results were the same MV difference, only 50 fps. This suggests that the .458 Lott advantage over the .458 WinMag is miniscule, at SAAMI standards restrictions, and it decreases as bullet weight decreases. This is something that we have long know in regards to comparing the .375 Weatherby Magnum to the .375 H&H, etc. Heh-heh-heh.
Is it true ? Sir Larry has suggested it should be verified by home testing. I will get around to it, dissect a round and chronograph for .458 WinMag, 45-70 Gov't., .458 SOCOM and even the 450 Bushmaster of pistol caliber .45 if CEB or Hammer loaded:
Powder charge appearance and weight and corrected MV for a barrel of what length ?
I have yet to shoot that Norma .458 WinMag ammo with 500-gr Swift A-Frame. Maybe I will get to it when checking the deer rifle zero this week, same rifle, but the deer bullet is the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Deer season and honey-do lists sometimes interfere with Bubba Science.
Sir Ron, thanks for posting this. I was totally unaware of this company until I stumbled upon their website.
I was pleasantly surprised to see their 404 Shock Hammer loads. Impressive velocities. I would still be impressed if they were 100 fps less, and consider them top-dog in the world of factory loads.
They do have many different cartridges listed with top tier bullets at very good velocity.
Reminder to the faithful here; Truth is a mighty Oak, slow growing but deep roots that hold against the wind. Lies grow like wildfire but are swept away by their own wind. Sir Ron’s planting of the 458wm truth took some time to spread out but is holding well and we can enjoy the shade it provides while resting from the heat of the lies. All is well. F01
Reminder to the faithful here; Truth is a mighty Oak, slow growing but deep roots that hold against the wind. Lies grow like wildfire but are swept away by their own wind. Sir Ron’s planting of the 458wm truth took some time to spread out but is holding well and we can enjoy the shade it provides while resting from the heat of the lies. All is well. F01
If these folks' "in house powder blends" give consistent velocity and psi in the vicinity of SAAMI MAP, their 458 Winchester 404 Shock Hammer load is spectacular. 22.5" barrel = 2550 fps I would have a big smile at 100 fps less than advertised.
"Norma Swift" factory load with 500-gr A-Frame was chronographed. I sure am glad I never bought a Lab Radar. Excuse was that I had not destroyed all my optical chrono's yet. Now when that happens I am going for a Garmin Xero. Speaking of cash, at five bucks per pop, one round dissected and 9 rounds fired is fifty bucks. I blame the Swift A-Frame for not living up to 2116 fps MV. They are either slower or develop higher pressure if velocity is achieved. Apparently the .457" diameter of this bullet does not get the MV advertised. Heck of a good bullet otherwise. G1 BC = 0.361
That was shot with the Ruger1 No. 1, Miss Daisy, 24", 1:14" twist. 50 yard target. She is not slow. Nine shots of Swift produced some copper fouling of note. Had to sight my deer rifle with the Hammer bullet today too. Used Freki for that so as not to mix the fouling.
The 2600 fps long COL loads are fun in Freki too, seems to be her accuracy node with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Reminder to the faithful here; Truth is a mighty Oak, slow growing but deep roots that hold against the wind. Lies grow like wildfire but are swept away by their own wind. Sir Ron’s planting of the 458wm truth took some time to spread out but is holding well and we can enjoy the shade it provides while resting from the heat of the lies. All is well. F01
Yes, it will allow 2 bands in and 2 bands out of the case for 3.34″ COL .458 WinMag with 2.490″ brass (satisfying SAAMI homologation), and 3 bands in and 1 band out of the case for 2.99″ COL .458 B&M with 2.240″ brass length (as per MIB homologation).
Let the brass go to 2.500″ long in the .458 WinMag and it becomes a .458 WM+ load with 3.35″ COL, heh-heh-heh.
With the belt and suspenders crimp a 3.45″ COL is possible now in the .458 WM+. That adds 4.166 grains of water to net case capacity, versus 3.35″ COL. That is about the same increase in net capacity as realized in using the Norma brass instead of the other common brass for the .458 WinMag, both at same seating depth. Sadly, other common brass for the .458 WinMag is not so common lately. Trim the .458 Lott to 2.5" length whenever possible. That is like asking the space aliens to eat the Canadians first. It's a joke, Sir Bob. We all love Canadians here, except for Fidel Castro's son.
That extra 0.100″ of bore-riding nose projection on the 0.700″ version also will add to effective throat length versus the 0.600″ bore-rider nose. More effective case capacity or pressure let-off than with the 0.600″ version when both are loaded to same COL. Might have to use more than 78.0 grains of Benchmark to get it to 2500 fps at 3.350″ COL in 24″ barrel. Accuracy of the longer-nosed bullet will hopefully be as good as with the shorter-nosed bullet. To be determined.
Quote from Sir Michael of McCourry Institute of Ballistics in South Carolina, Doc M at MIB:
There are many good reasons to be in possession of properly designed Solids for every endeavor in the field, and there are NO good reasons for not having them.
The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom."
Sir Ron, I definitely like the nose projection & band location on this 400. It will be most interesting, if testing is conducted to see the penetration comparison compared to the shorter nose. I am presently sitting out on the 400's.
The 325's will more than handle my wants. And of course not to forget the 380 Lehigh. The 380 with the big meplat might turn into my closer range general use bullet for my local area.
Very nice work Gentlemen of the Four Five Eight Round Table, 404 Hammer coupled with 400gr CEB flat nosed solids will indeed do it all, and do it to 400 yards if a man knows his drops. i also agree with Doc M at MIB, i love solids and have loads worked up for them in rifles from 9.3x62 to 577 Nitro Express.
We are not afforede the luxury of asking ANY game animal to pose for the perfect shot angle!
ABE Inc is a great outfit, as a matter of fact, a 'Smith there, a nerd lab boy that hangs out down at Ratheon in Sherman, and a Baptist minister out of Iowa built my 500 Linebaugh single action revolver ; ] a hell of a mind bending collaboration.
Sir Larry, Understood on all that. Got a feeling that MIB will do the test. Sorry about calling you out as Assistant Chaplain to the Square Table, meant Sir Dennis, of course. Just a typo brainswoggle due to all the praying we are doing for your first cousin Sir John. He is not out of the woods yet. We pray for him to be returned to good health. Amen.
If we have a Chaplain and Assistant Chaplain, seems I ought to volunteer as Surgeon of the Square Table, sort like of my "no-duties" office at the local chapter of the SAR.
Very nice work Gentlemen of the Four Five Eight Round Table, 404 Hammer coupled with 400gr CEB flat nosed solids will indeed do it all, and do it to 400 yards if a man knows his drops. i also agree with Doc M at MIB, i love solids and have loads worked up for them in rifles from 9.3x62 to 577 Nitro Express.
We are not afforede the luxury of asking ANY game animal to pose for the perfect shot angle!
ABE Inc is a great outfit, as a matter of fact, a 'Smith there, a nerd lab boy that hangs out down at Ratheon in Sherman, and a Baptist minister out of Iowa built my 500 Linebaugh single action revolver ; ] a hell of a mind bending collaboration.
Sir Jerry, much appreciated verification of ABE. They need to sign you up as celebrity endorser, like Jim Shockey used to do for Nosler, Leupold ... and too many other companies to shake a stick at.
Sir Bevan, I am not one to ask for a mile when allowed an inch. 3.250" COL with 2.5" brass length gives seat depth of 0.476". 3.350" COL: 0.376" That is good, more neck on the bullet than in a .500 Jeffery. Also allows surpassing 3.340" COL with regular crimp, by a whopping 0.010".
To go to unconventional "belt & suspenders" crimping below the third band gives COL of 3.450" and seating depth of 0.276". I like that. No need for more.
Would need more bullet to go longer. For the FN solid it would mean more weight, destroying the "non-con" magic of the 400-grainer at 2500-ish fps.
The 404-gr Shock Hammer is "more bullet" in length. No need to mess with that magic either.
Two perfect bullets that together will do all.
No need to limit ourselves, however, as there are nearly infinite numbers of satisfactory propellant and bullet combos with King Four Five Eight.
Sir Bevan, I am not one to ask for a mile when allowed an inch. 3.250" COL with 2.5" brass length gives seat depth of 0.476". 3.350" COL: 0.376" That is good, more neck on the bullet than in a .500 Jeffery. Also allows surpassing 3.340" COL with regular crimp, by a whopping 0.010".
To go to unconventional "belt & suspenders" crimping below the third band gives COL of 3.450" and seating depth of 0.276". I like that. No need for more.
Would need more bullet to go longer. For the FN solid it would mean more weight, destroying the "non-con" magic of the 400-grainer at 2500-ish fps.
The 404-gr Shock Hammer is "more bullet" in length. No need to mess with that magic either.
Two perfect bullets that together will do all.
No need to limit ourselves, however, as there are nearly infinite numbers of satisfactory propellant and bullet combos with King Four Five Eight.
With no objections to Sir Dennis' Chaplaincy of the Square Table as backup for Sir Bob, onward to new business. I have been out of touch for a few days, now putting bandaids on my briar scratches and resting my geriatric joints. Ten more days of deer season remain, modern gun here. I am all for making the highways safer for motorists by accessing a no-limit season on does in an area I have access to next. Some enlightenment was obtained at the latest outing where the limit was four deer, or one buck and three does. More to follow on my latest .458 WinMag and 404-gr Shock Hammering of a doe at a mere 50 yards.
I had to get on my brakes and horn as Bucky's twin crossed the highway that night, headed home, after I shot the doe. I would rather bag one with the .458 WinMag than with my truck.
I sat in this condominium with 88 y.o. "Geri Harry" (not Dirty Harry mind you) on Saturday and Sunday:
Saturday Harry shot this small buck about 100 yards:
It was a spine shot with a .243 Winchester (born in 1955 a year before the .458 WM) Ruger M77 and Leupold 1.5-5x20mm in Ruger rings, handloaded with Speer 100-gr 6mm GrandSlam SP and enough StaBall 6.5 to give +2800 fps MV from the 22" barrel. Rifle and ammo provided by McGee Acres Game Farm proprietor. The deer dropped like a sack of rocks.
No outwardly visible entrance wound and a small spot of blood visible as exit wound. Small bit of backstrap meat loss. Sunday Harry shot a doe, again at about 100 yards. It was hit in a single lung(right side) and then into gut on left side. It went down then bounced up and ran off, about 100 yards into a cedar thicket and dropped for good. Harry was satisfied with enough backstrap for taking back to the Florida Keys by return flight Tuesday, allowing Monday for solid freezing of meat.
So Sunday afternoon I left Harry in the condominium blind and walked a few hundred yards west to a ladder stand:
Right before sundown a doe popped out of a cedar thicket only 50 yards away and was reflexively shot with the .458 WinMag.
She was hit in the left side, low in chest, getting only both sides of lungs and ribs, no heart, great vessels nor shoulder bones nor meat. She went straight up in the air a few feet upon bullet impact and then ran as if uninjured, back into the cedar thicket. I blood trailed her for 50 yards up a low hill and then lost the blood in the darkness, and besides, Harry showed up. Making sure he did not fall in the woods, I decided to let the deer wait until morning, since it was frosting heavily overnight.
Entrance wound of 404-gr/.458 Shock Hammer at 2468 fps MV, 50-yard impact:
Exit wound may have been augmented overnight by a 'possum nibbling on its edges, but otherwise no meat was lost. Doe was found lying like this, exit wound up:
Moral of the story is that a double-lunged deer might go 100 yards whether shot with a .243 Winchester and 100-gr Speer GrandSlam impacting about 2700 fps or a .458 Winchester Magnum and 404-gr Shock Hammer impacting about 2400 fps. Whitetail does are about as tenacious to life as a cape buffalo, they just do not offer as much resistance to bullet.
Freki the Doeslayer leaned against a big cedar tree:
Of course, the .458 WinMag is more capable of dropping a cape buffalo DRT with one shot, as proven by Sir Jerry and Sir James, than is the .243 Winchester. There is that to recommend it, the .458 WinMag.
Sir Dennis, My 55"-long Jet Sled got some use. Nice size for a doe. Don't you think ?
Sir Larry, Weird exit wound. One broad rib exposed in center of 3"-wide oval of missing hide. One rib rearward had a chip off its edge adjacent to the hole. The lungs were a bloody mess. Suggests a doe is pretty narrow chested and the petals had not spread out much by the time the bullet base and all petals passed out the offside hide, between the ribs, except one petal or the bullet base grazed/chipped a rib ? The clean hole suggests a 'possum chewed the edges of the exit wound, maybe got scared off the carcass by me returning early AM. Tender, succulent venison. I have made three meals of the meat already. 'Possum got merely a nibble. I got the rest.
Got rained out today and probably tomorrow. I shall be gunning for more meat, Lord willing and the creeks don't rise, and the holiday, etc.
I have a new CVA Scout in .45-70 Gov't. Bob Mitchell pioneered the .45-70 Long Throat on a Ruger No. 1. He could shoot 500-grainers at 2200 fps with that, pressure tested sub 60K psi by Western Powders lab.
There is another cartridge called the .45-70 Elko Magnum, a CIP homologation of the 1990s. I discovered that after I re-created the wheel with a .45-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated, my reamer name (from Dave Manson) was ".45-100 SWT." Ruger No.1 X2 for those, a 22" light barrel (1:20" twist) and a 28" heavy barrel (1:18" twist).
The CVA Scout is factory-marked simply ".45-70" so it will be easy to add "Elko Magnum" to the barrel. This brings honesty. The .45-70 EM came before the .45-2.6" SWT. I can no longer copycat without giving Mr. Elko his due. It would be akin to stolen valor.
The "70" means 70 grains of smokeless powder in the .45-70 Elko Magnum, versus 70 grains of BP in the .45-70 Government. Whatever the .458 WM+ can do, the .45-70 EM can do, despite the 0.100" longer COL. No problem in the single-shot rifle, of course.
Sir Ron, no telling what feasts upon prime immobile venison at night.
I suppose this is where I have to question, is a 458 Winchester adequate for use as a whitetail stopping cartridge 😂 ??
I see on the Hammer site where there were a couple of folks seemingly concerned they did not have immediate drop on the spot shots, on deer. Heck, some were surprised at the animal moving less than 50 yards. Edit: This was with smaller caliber fast moving bullets.
My take is if the bullet did its job, and poi was suitable, the reaction / action is animal specific. Some animals just do not give up, and distances traveled are impressive considering damage done.
Sir Ron Nice doe and I too have the xl Jet Sled as my retrieval tool. I have an old camper shell / topper on my old 1986 Chevy 4x4 with about 3” lift on it. I can no longer grab a big floppy dead buck and hoist into the back but I can load the deer and the jet sled as a unit by lifting the front onto the lowered tailgate and then getting behind the load lift and lever then push it all in! Keeps me able to hunt and retrieve alone!! Note: yes the 458wm is an excellent deer stopping rifle. I was charged by a fleeing doe a few years ago. When she exited the thicket right at me I placed a 485 fn cast bullet in her neck Chest junction whereupon she hit the ground dead with her entire stomach existing her body through the exit hole. Since the stomach was not penetrated, I think the bullet vacuumed it out. Never seen anything like it. 👍🏼👍🏼
My take is if the bullet did its job, and poi was suitable, the reaction / action is animal specific.
True. . . and bullet specific.
I've done a significant amount of testing .458-cal bullets in various media - the last two in glossy dry magazines wedged tightly in strong cardboard boxes. That was not to simulate penetration in live game, but to compare bullets with each other in penetration, weight retention and expansion.
Date:Oct 31/17 Rifle: Ruger no.1 in .45-70 LT Test media: 2 boxes of dry magazines + some hard-cover books + two 2" softwood planks. Total lenth of test media = 21". Firing distance = 5 yds., and MV to simulate impact on game at 75 yds. Bullets fired in this order and results: 500gr Speer AGS: MV = 1750 fps. Penetration into 1st box only = 6". Retained wt = 62%/310 grs. 480gr DGX (non-bonded): MV = 1785 fps. Complete penetration of 1st box (14') missed 2nd box and wood, impacted ledge behind and left a perfect imprint of the nose at about .458" . Bullet lost. 500 Hornady SP Int.: MV ~ 2000 fps (from a previous handload) Turned box upside down, no pieces found and no exit. A lot of confetti though! 400gr Barnes Buster: Mv = 2250 fps. Complete straight-line penetration of both boxes and 2 planks. Lost in background. 330gr Barnes Banded: MV = 2400 fps. Complete penetration of test media, in straight-line. Lost in background. 350 Hornady RN: MV = 2250 fps. Penetration 3.5 - 4". Lost core and retained 51% (jacket only) 350 Barnes TSX: MV = 2470 fps. Complete penetration, stopped at last panel of 2nd cardboard box, fully expanded and retained 100%. It did more damage than any of the other bullets, with the possible exception of the solids that just kept on going.
For my bear hunt in May 2024, I'm thinking of using the 400gr Barnes Buster at about 2250 fps from my Ruger No.1H in .458 Win.
Since the stomach was not penetrated, I think the bullet vacuumed it out. Never seen anything like it. 👍🏼👍🏼
And that happened with a bear I shot using a 500gr Hornady RN. It was from the Ruger No.1 in .45-70 LT mentioned above. MV was 2185 fps. It was quartering to me, and from 40 yds I hit it behind the left front shoulder and the 500gr Hornady took exit in the offside flank with a two foot loop of bowel on the outside, not ruptured, punctured or torn. What a time I had getting it back inside through a nickel-size hole! The Hornady was too tough and never expanded but it killed the bear that went about 20 yds.
Thanks Bob for the supporting evidence. I think the force involved to be vacuum. I can’t see how it would happen any other way as the doe went straight down and dead. F01
Sir Ron, no telling what feasts upon prime immobile venison at night.
I suppose this is where I have to question, is a 458 Winchester adequate for use as a whitetail stopping cartridge 😂 ??
I see on the Hammer site where there were a couple of folks seemingly concerned they did not have immediate drop on the spot shots, on deer. Heck, some were surprised at the animal moving less than 50 yards. Edit: This was with smaller caliber fast moving bullets.
My take is if the bullet did its job, and poi was suitable, the reaction / action is animal specific. Some animals just do not give up, and distances traveled are impressive considering damage done.
Sir Larry, Ditto. There is no reliable DRTRN (DeadRightThereRightNow) upon bullet impact unless the CNS (brain or spinal cord) are smacked. This does lead me to wonder about hydrostatic shock delivered to the heart or great vessels that could be transmitted to the brain and stroke the animal out in the brain by sudden massive hemorrhagic stroke, brain bleed. Not just any heart shot, has to be when a valve is open and the valveless great vessels are always an open conduit for the "blood hammer." Top of the heart and great vessel area hit is most likely to blood hammer a brain. Shock Hammer bullets don't always do it, even with a high heart hit on a whitetail deer, not quite the cape buffalo DRTRN's we have seen from Sir Jerry and Sir James.
My latest on Thanksgiving Day morn was an unlucky duo of a button buck I thought was a doe and a larger buck with a deformed knob for his left antler. The little guy got his heart touched and both lungs deflated and three ribs trashed on the offside He simply wheeled around 180 degrees and bounded back into the woods, went 10 yards and collapsed. The bigger knobhead buck had been right behind the button buck, hence enforcing the idea of the doe. He froze at the edge of the woods, then turned to sneak away slowly between the trees. Freki is a voracious wolf of a rifle, she lunged at that deer too. He got a similar though mirror image shot just behind the heart since he was creeping slowly away. Both lungs and three broken ribs on the off side. He went 30 yards at a run after being hit. No leap straight up as I have seen two cape buffalo do, as well as that first doe that I reported on earlier this season. She was double lunged and went straight up off the ground on impact. No explaining except reflex reaction of intact nervous system.
Laser range from my stand to the button buck was 133 yards. Knobhead was on the same latitude line. Bullet was 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2468 fps MV with Benchmark 78.0 grains in Norma brass, a moderate load for the .458 WM+ at 3.380" COL.
First use for my unfinished 10'x20' he-shed is for home-processing of this meat with temporary suspension at back end of shed, processing tables, grinder, slicer installed since this photo:
The other two deer were commercially processed. This button buck gets more respect. I suspect the knobhead buck was a homopedophile who tricked me into thinking he was following a doe. He needed to be removed from the gene pool.
Another mishap, it happens. Day before Thanksgiving I was aiming at a doe 200 yards away. My scope looked right over the top of a tree branch ten feet from the rifle muzzle:
Sir Ron Nice doe and I too have the xl Jet Sled as my retrieval tool. I have an old camper shell / topper on my old 1986 Chevy 4x4 with about 3” lift on it. I can no longer grab a big floppy dead buck and hoist into the back but I can load the deer and the jet sled as a unit by lifting the front onto the lowered tailgate and then getting behind the load lift and lever then push it all in! Keeps me able to hunt and retrieve alone!! Note: yes the 458wm is an excellent deer stopping rifle. I was charged by a fleeing doe a few years ago. When she exited the thicket right at me I placed a 485 fn cast bullet in her neck Chest junction whereupon she hit the ground dead with her entire stomach existing her body through the exit hole. Since the stomach was not penetrated, I think the bullet vacuumed it out. Never seen anything like it. 👍🏼👍🏼
Sir Dennis, Ah ha. DRTRN deer. Wish you had a picture of the stomach exit after straight-on neck-chest-juncture frontal shot. Spinal cord shock or autonomic fainting from vagal nerve trauma along its course down the neck to stomach ? I would faint too if my stomach suddenly popped out of my body.
Jet Sled. Yep, I am getting the biggest one I can find. The knobhead buck was a poor fit in my medium:
That will be very interesting. Any 400-gr/.458 bullet is highly esteemed, as is your shooting and hunting prowess. You put Geri Harry to shame. That ungrateful 88 y.o. whom I packed and skinned for had the gall to say "Whatever your medical specialty was, I know it was not surgery." Since he was unable to do so many things for himself, his criticism was funny, the old coot ! I admit, I have grown rusty from using commercial game processors. Boning up on my boning out skills now.
I see you have the "roped and tied" down pat for Jet sled and bucks. The bigger they are the better you need to tie them here in the hill and gully hunting fields to keep the dreaded tip over and dump the load down the hill deals. I have replaced the pulling ropes with a real rope, long enough to use to secure the head/horns to the pulling force. Seems to keep them less floppy. I tie three legs like a calf to both bundle them up and lessen the flopping around. I use hay twine for that. A real deal to see... by the looks on others faces!! I don't care, it works for me; as does the magnificent 458WM as a Great Plains Whitetail rifle!! F01
Sir Dennis, I went and got the "XL" size Jet Sled for coming late muzzleloader season, maybe crossbow too ? I also paid the extra $30 bucks for the brown camo version, good for hauling decoys into a duck blind. Heck, at 65" long and 30" wide it is a regular dingy, might use a kayak paddle in a puddle with it.
I will remember the 3-leg hog tie trick, and a loop around head/horns in the pull rope tension train. Paracord 500-pound test. Cheap, thick poly rope 300-pound test. Hay twine if you got it for the hog tie, I have the paracord.
I replaced the dinky pull cord with poly ropes, two 15-foot lengths that loop to each side of sled front. Put a loop around each shoulder, then a gloved hand grips each one like a thumb under your suspenders. So I end up pushing each rope loop with palms forward in front of shoulders, a triceps and pecs workout. That is good for the muscle pocket where a rifle butt caresses the shoulder in recoil. So I stagger a hundred steps then rest until breathing returns to normal. Repeat for a half mile per deer. Hoping for snow for late ML season. .45-cal ML, of course, heh-heh-heh.
Let it be known that Sir John aka jwp475 is rehabbing from a bad bout with pneumonia. It has been touch and go for a while, but he is whipping it, it is not not whipping him. He sends his regards to the Square Table.
Pneumonia was always called "the old man's last friend" but Sir John has given it the boot, not needing a friend like that when he has so many here.
So Sir John is back in his home town at a rehab facility, taking showers with female physical therapy personnel. The showers are greatly enjoyed and cause him to think many thoughts, a good sign that his usual higher brain function is intact. He is also talking long and hard as usual, another good sign, as per telephone conversation today. We also discussed race horse heart size, Secretariat's was huge, and the X-ray techniques used on the Alaska Pipeline welds, back in the day when Sir John was working on it, compared to the new digital techniques used on 42″ diameter pipe welds today. Digital like on the chest X-rays he has been getting since his ordeal started on October 25, 2023. Digital like on the Keystone Pipeline canceled by the Dims ASAP in 2021. Let’s go Brandon !
Muzzleloader for deer: .45-cal CVA Paramount I am still stuck with the Pointy Power Belt and Blackhorn 209 good to 200 yards or more. The grooves and twist of the Paramount are very like the original rifles of Sir Joseph Whitworth. A soft lead/tin, 480-gr, paper-patched to bore diameter might be made to obturate into the .450" bore/.462" groove rifling of 1:22" twist Would Blackhorn 209 do it or will I have to use real BP ? Celebrating the origins of the .458 WinMag in this way is on the bucket list.
Turning a .458 WinMag CF rifle into a muzzleloader (hang a ramrod under the barrel): Gemmer WinMag ? Nah, kaboom.
Sir Reverend Bob, Great blog, latest installment especially ! You really gave the Lottites some hellfire and brimstone in that sermon, amen ! Understandable that you feel "slow catching up" here, as busy as you have been with your writing and related hunting and gun pursuits, Iron Man Bob. Keep us posted on the 400-gr Barnes Buster, please.
Speaking of bullets:
Now Buffalo Bore has followed suit with a .600 NE combo of Shock Hammer and Safari Solid:
They have both 100-gr "tropical" and 110-gr Cordite equivalent loads with softs and solids, I reckon.
Zeroed at 200 yards for deer, little meat is wasted with the .458 WinMag and 404-gr Shock Hammer. A modest load of 78.0 grains of Benchmark does fine, at a mere 2468 fps MV, whether at 0 degrees or 100 degrees F, I reckon.
Correction: UltimateSlam reticle and 3X magnification. MV of 404-gr SH 2500 fps. Zero 20" high at 100 yards, using center crosshair. 20-MOA tilt rail should make that easy. Use the lower post point for aiming at 1000-yard bullseye. Should be right on for Creedmost Match.
It is funny how the personal craziness of an individual changes over time. Some start off crazy for double rifles of .620-caliber and 15 to 20 pounds in the hands. Apparently there is still a market for ammo to feed those cravings:
Others of us shift our craziness to a bolt action of much greater handiness and versatility. Something that can be 10 pounds or less in weight field ready, and with a trigger pull weight of 3 pounds.
404-gr Shock Hammer at 2500 fps MV from a standard .458 WinMag. Leupold 3-9x40 mm muzzleloader scope with UltimateSlam reticle, set at 3X magnification.
20-MOA Near Mfg rail allows scope to be very "NEAR" its optical center if bullet strikes +20.0" (high) at 100 yards (+19.1 MOA). Center crosshair of reticle will be zeroed at 598.4 yards, very near 600 yard gong for zero checking. Then the bottom post point will be the hold for the 1000-yard billboard-sized Creedmost Match target.
The bullet will rise no more than +42.9" at 328 yards, maximum ordinate. Launch angle is 0 degrees and 23.0 minutes, 0*23'00". That is a lot flatter shooting than what they had in 1874. Also, 3X scope is a lot better than 1X eyeball with iron sights. No wonder they had such big targets.
My Whitworth seems to be a wounded deer finder. Found a wounded 10 point yesterday. I put him out of his misery after watching him limp for a couple hundred yards. He was just barely walking. I caught up to him as he went down a gully on a deer trail. I grunted as he walked away, he stopped and looked back over his shoulder at me. I put my 485 cast in the crease of his turned neck at 150 yards and his suffering ceased. Had I not shot him, the coyotes would have eaten him alive in the night. F01
Sir Dennis, Very good of you and your rifle. You just step out with the .458 Whitworth and it leads the way. Surely you have a pet name for the old girl ? If I ever knew it I forgot. What is the name of your poison slinger ? Buffalo Bill called his "Lucretia Borgia." Daniel Boone called his "Tick Licker."
Late muzzleloader season here opened yesterday with rain and mud. So I only pretended to hunt yesterday. Instead I took a Marco's Pizza XL Deluxe to the farm owner's house for lunch.
My public range is closed by some complaints from a cattle farmer whose pasture lies about a mile from the firing line. I will devote this muzzle loader season developing some paper-patched loads for the CVA Paramount .45-cal. Use it next year. I have three deer in the freezer. Don't need anymore right now, unless I rush out and buy another freezer ...
Also the handloads for the 404-gr and 400-gr soft and solid combo, to verify the new solid with longer nose projection, from CEB. Using Benchmark in the Norma brass at shorter COLs below 3.4". Goal is a flat 2500 fps with both bullets. Also to verify that the .700" nose projection (ahead of first band) is as accurate as the 0.600" nose projection on the CEB brass solid. Anything over 3.340" is a .458 WM+ load, where pressures as high as in a .458 Lott are permissible, heh-heh-heh. Doc M at MIB has purchased some fresh Benchmark, he also has some 2012 or 2013 vintage. That is what mine is, 2012-2013 from an 8-pound keg. Seems good as new. Hope to see from MIB what the 10 years and lot change does to Benchmark. He will be testing standard .458 B&M and .458 WM ammo for pressure and velocity.
The .458 B&M+ at 0.260" shorter COL equals the .458 WM+ at whatever COL. Both will beat a SAAMI .458 Lott, heh-heh-heh.
From Sir Bob's blog, latest installment, linked above, some highlights:
"... we now have the 404gr Shock Hammer from Hammer Bullets, in .458-cal, at .419 BC. At near 2600 fps it’s capable of taking large game, like moose or eland, to 500 yds!"
RIFLE: Ruger No.1H
Cartridge: .458 Win Mag
Bullet: 404gr Shock Hammer
SD = .275
BC = .419
MV = 2580 fps/ 5972 ft-lbs (what I’ve gotten from the original 400gr X-Bullet in my Ruger No.1H)
100 = 2385/ 5102 ft-lbs/ +3.8″
200 = 2199/ 4377 ft-lbs/ +3″
300 = 2021/ 3664 ft-lbs/ -5″
400 = 1852/ 3077 ft-lbs/ -21.5″
500 = 1693/ 2572 ft-lbs/ -48″
"The ambient conditions for the above data would be average for my area. The heat of Africa would much improve those numbers."
Yep. Load the 404-gr Shock Hammer to 3.58" from 2.5" brass in a .458 WinMag chamber and do not worry about pressure at 2580 fps. Putting that same load into a SAAMI .458 Lott chamber is going to be dicey.
3.58" COL for the 404-gr Shock Hammer is a nice COL to work with in a Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag, aka .458 WM+.
Sir Ron, Yes she has a name one most glorious and one that brings a hushed reverence when spoken. When she is called to duty, I speak these words to the gun room, “458, come forth!” The is her name. Cleopatra had no better label than she. Best regards, F01
Sir Dennis, "458" or "The" which is it ? Maybe "The 458" ? Ha ! I reckon that is a pet name for all .458 Winchester Magnum rifles, and a good one it is. The first and the best .458. THE 458 !!!
Back to 1000-yard Creedmost sighting.
The Leupold MOA-Ring reticle has a -30 MOA tick mark when set on 4X.
The Nikon P3 Shotgun, SlugHunter and InLine with BDC 200 reticles can be used on 5X setting for 1008 yards on the bottom post.
The NightForce SHV 3-10x40 with MOAR reticle has a -30 MOA tick mark when set on 10X. Yeeha.
Get your 404-gr Shock Hammer doing 2500 fps MV. Use a 20-MOA rail and sight rifle 19.1 MOA (20") high at 100 yards. Rifle is now zeroed at very near 600 yards (OK, 598 yards), and will strike the 1000-yard bull with a 30-MOA holdover. The 10X scope setting will give some advantage over the iron sights used in 1874.
The SHV weighs 20.8 ounces. Rail weighs 4 ounces. Rings weigh 4 ounces. Rounds to 29 ounces total add-on for optics, 1#13oz. That leaves 8#3oz for bare rifle weight to make the 10# limit with no ammo. That is exactly the weight of Freki and Geri, two contenders, both Mausers: 8#3oz bare. Take advantage of every ounce. 10 pounds is perfect.
Looking through the recent posts in this thread, it appears that several members who responded to my query about their favorite .4** calibers are providing input here as well. This doesn't surprise since it was many of your comments that convinced me to give the .458 Win Mag a try. I enjoy new projects and stepping off of this particular cliff seemed really interesting. As the new kid on the block, I feel like a bit of an interloper in this thread full of gurus but since you prevailed in converting me to your way of thinking, I thought you might be as curious as me to see how this all pans out.
Anyway, as the first step in this journey, I thought I would introduce you to the new love in my life that I picked up earlier this afternoon:
1999 Ruger M77 MkII LH
She's been suffering from a chronic case of anemia for 25 years but I'm hoping that pulling the 7mm RM barrel off of her & replacing it with a McGowen 1:14 twist No. 5 in .458 WM will cure that. Barrel length hasn't been decided yet so feel free to throw suggestions my way if you like. I know I'll want to reinforce the stock but my intention is not to be shooting any of the primer-blowing loads that are flirting with a threshold that have been tested elsewhere in this thread. PG not DG is currently the intended goal.
Having said that, I will be moving this rifle up in power so any practical advice, caveats or suggested upgrades is always welcome. I didn't know if for example RH vs LH twist on the rifling is a consideration since I'm shooting off of my left shoulder. Research on the question of measurable torque for large powerful bullets wasn't definitive. Initially I'm going to try to keep the original laminate stock & see how it works before considering a replacement with something else like synthetic. I'm assuming I might make some rookie mistakes but, like most things, I'm hoping they'll be fixable with time, effort & money.
Hopefully at some point in the future I'll have an improved rifle that's fun to shoot. If I can hit that mark, then I'm going to name her Ophelia & find her a spot in my safe.
Congrats on your new rifle! A good find and its future looks bright as Ophelia. I'd keep that stock if possible, adding some crossbolts and bedding for strenth and stability. And I think a 23" barrel would look nice and suit your intentions. And overall weight ready to hunt should come in around 9.5 to about 10 lbs - because with experience you may want to shoot some of those heavyweights at worthwhile speeds.
I'm sure others will chime in with more detailed suggestions and/or advice.
Thanks Bob! This will be fun since I've never done anything like this before. I had put in an order to MidwayUSA earlier this week for some other stuff so I went ahead and grabbed a pair of Talley crossbolts in anticipation of this project. I'm going to be slow & methodical. Hopefully it'll be something nice when I'm done.
Well, it is about time we had a Sir Darryl at the Square Table. Do you accept the title, odonata ?
The McGowen on my M70 is 23" long and is only a few fps slower than the 25" Shilen for MV. The McGowen slugged at a true 0.458" groove diameter, minimum for SAAMI. The Shilen is closer to 0.459" in groove diameter, SAAMI satisfying, exceeds the minimum by less than 0.001"
What makes for a faster barrel if both have the same length, chamber, throat and twist ? Tight and smooth rifling, I guess, and the McGowen is tighter and at least as smooth as the Shilen, I guess. The 23" McGowen and the 25" Shilen both did +2500 fps with the 400-gr GSC HV and 80.0 grains of AA-2230. That was in pre-Hammer days.
Anyhow, speaking of speediness, here is the 404-gr at 2600 fps JUSTIFIED for the .458 WM+:
Look at the Woodleigh manual for the .458 Lott using the 400-gr PPSN cup&core, WeldCore. That is a short bullet, 1.152" BOL, short nose projection, crimped on the cannelure the COL in the .458 Lott is 3.465". They use 83.0 grains of Benchmark as a maximum load giving 2500 fps MV and 87.0 grains of H4895 (COMPRESSED) for max load giving 2570 fps MV.
The 450-gr HYDRO (BOL = 1.452") was loaded to COL of 3.6" or less and used 85.0 grains of Benchmark (COMPRESSED) as max load: 2480 fps Same bullet with 86.0 grains of H4895 (COMPRESSED) was also a max load: 2450 fps
All of those max loads are supposed to be less than 62,500 psi.
Seems like the 404-gr Shock Hammer (BOL = 1.440") loaded to 3.580" with 84.0 grains of Benchmark in Norma brass might be a quite reasonable load regarding pressure (in the .458 WM+) since the bullet is shorter and lighter than the HYDRO that was loaded with 1 grain more powder, in smaller capacity brass case. Low drag PDR bands on the Hammer might be as slick as the brass HYDRO, maybe slicker. And there is that thing about the longer throat on the .458 Winchester Magnum too.
I do believe this is a practical load for single-loading in any .458 Winchester Magnum, Bolt Action or Ruger No. 1:
404-gr Shock Hammer Norma Brass Case F-215 primer COL = 3.580" Propellant = BENCHMARK 84.0 grains MV = 2612 fps One-hole 3-shot group at 50 yards.
That was in a Pac-Nor 1:10" twist of 24.25" length, SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber. Pac-Nor slugged same as McGowen. Twist has insignificant effects on pressure and velocity for the small difference of 10" versus 14". Generally in the 20" to 25" range of barrel length, you only lose about 15 fps per inch of barrel shortening, with a given barrel chambered for the Mighty .458 Winchester Magnum. You'll lose more per inch for shortening below 20" and gain less per inch for lengthening above 25".
Fill a magazine box with this 3.360" COL, might be .458 WM+ by a whopping 0.020":
Zero the 404-grainer for 200 yards. The 400-gr FN solid load will be near dead-on at 50 yards. Like horse shoes and hand grenades.
Nice things will happen also with the 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2500 fps and 3.38" COL still zeroed for 200 yards, only 2.5" high at 100 yards. 50-yard POI will be very close to 50-yard POI of 400-gr FN solid at same velocity.
Also the 2500 fps 404-gr Shock Hammer can be resighted with a switch of scopes for 20" high at 100 yards, to hit dead-on at 600 yards, and then hold 30-MOA high for a 1000-yard billboard target with 3'x3' square bullseye. That's a prettier bunch of numbers to work with.
Well, it is about time we had a Sir Darryl at the Square Table. Do you accept the title, odonata ?
My love of long comprehensive replies backed by quantifiable data compels me to accept this honor! Sir Ron, thanks for the detailed reply on the various options to consider.
I'm going to pick up my newly acquired LH Winchester 70 Safari Express in .375 H&H later today so it's been a good week over here. I look at it differently now that I know it would make a great .458 WM if I ever feel it's too wimpy at some point in the future.
I'm feeling so celebratory right now I might just burn a vacation day tomorrow & make it a 4-day weekend starting now...
The 404 Shock Hammer & 400 Safari Solid should make a smashing combination.
The 404 Shock Hammer seems to be winning hearts and minds as it's use grows. You did well Sir Ron, very well. I still believe it is the best all-purpose non-solid 458 bullet that I am aware. Pretty amazing what this little sub-500 grainer accomplishes. Add the CEB #13 solids, CEB Raptors, the North Fork 350 grain Expanding Cup Point Solids, and the more conventional bullets on the market, the .458 is bullet rich.
Congrats on finding the two lefties, especially the Win M70 in 375 H&H.
On your Ruger 458 conversion, if I may I’d suggest you try to buy the Ruger SS factory banded front sight base, banded sling swivel base and rear sight that Ruger fits to their SS Alaska/Guide guns in 375R and 416R. Then have the 458 barrel profiled to fit the factory parts. It would really look the part, a SS Ruger in 458 WM.
Congrats on finding the two lefties, especially the Win M70 in 375 H&H.
Thanks! I'm not going to lie when I say I'm really excited about the M70. It has such a great heft & feel about it. This purchase all started when a hunting buddy kept talking about taking a trip to Africa and that dream collided with my fondness for classic calibers. So I asked a question about the versatility of using more powerful rifles like this on thinner skinned game. One recommendation that came from some more experienced hunters was that I would get a lot of mileage out of a 30-06 / 375 H&H combo if I ever decided to go hunting for plains game. So my Sako 85 Hunter & the newly-acquired Winchester M70 now cover that possible scenario:
I'm really looking forward to taking the M70 out to the range tomorrow & see how she shoots. I took the Sako out last Sunday & was really pleased when my last three shots off a bean bag at 100 yards made a single hole. For my terrible eyes, that's about as good as it ever gets (i.e. don't ask me to repeat this feat ).
Originally Posted by JFE
On your Ruger 458 conversion, if I may I’d suggest you try to buy the Ruger SS factory banded front sight base, banded sling swivel base and rear sight that Ruger fits to their SS Alaska/Guide guns in 375R and 416R. Then have the 458 barrel profiled to fit the factory parts. It would really look the part, a SS Ruger in 458 WM.
The only "problem" that the first thread created was it piqued my interest in some of the larger .4** size calibers and that lead to a second thread that wound up with me surprisingly deciding to build a 458 WM. I don't think I properly appreciated the versatility of this particular round until some of its enthusiasts started recommending it. For me, having puzzles to think about is always a good thing. I generally take any project I decide to do and then start by making it as involved, time-consuming & over-complicated as I possibly can . I don't do anything quickly. One of my last little fun side projects was cobbling together a stereo system and I took almost a year to get that task accomplished.
So trying to make this new build look special is going to be a fun challenge. One of the first hurdles is that the majority of the barrel bands & sights I've seen are either blued or in the white. Stainless is not as common. The one that is at Midway USA below, has an inside diameter of .560. As you pointed out in my previous thread, you need ~0.125" of barrel around the bore, so .560 - (2 * 0.125) = .310". It appears that this front sight was designed to go around .308 caliber barrels with a .560 muzzle. To mount it on a .458 muzzle, either the tip of the barrel or the inside of the sight would have to be filed down considerably to the point of possibly being unsafe or unusable. Locating the exact ones that are used on the .416 Ruger Guide Gun might be more appropriate and a fun scavenger hunt to try to accomplish. I'll keep you posted if I can make some progress.
Sir Larry, Asante sana sana to you and to Hammer Bullets and to CEB and and to Michael McCourry for making it happen with CEB. Best regards to Cousin JWP.
Let the gunsmith order the barrel-band front sight after he gets your barrel squared away. Fitting is a little ticklish, done properly. Doesn't have to be stainless front sight on a stainless barrel, just get it matte-blacked whatever steel it is. NECG is the place to start for sight parts. All-time favorite front sights: If not a gold patridge/sourdough, then this:
The open rear sight is not so important to me anymore. I would just as soon have a fold-down rear like on the Winchester M70 XTR . Makes it easy to use a peep rear sight, again from NECG is a dandy "ghost ring" that attaches to the integral Ruger scope base.
I also prefer a forend tip stud for sling instead of the barrel-banded type:
That laminate stock will be perfect if you do this:
Red dot on forend above represents side view of a hidden piece of steel all-thread to back up the recoil lug on the barrel, a good idea for walnut an laminate stocks without a full bedding block surrounding the action.
That is the MOAR reticle from Nightforce. Zero the center for 600 yards, hold on the -30 MOA tick mark for 1000 yards with 10X scope setting.
Top of reticle only goes up to 10 MOA on the vertical crosshair at 10X power. Dialing power down to 5X will make the top hash mark into +20 MOA. 20" high at 100 yards will come in just below that top hashmark, After checking at 100 yards, go to 600-yards for fine tuning on 10X power.
That laminate stock will be perfect if you do this:
Red dot on forend above represents side view of a hidden piece of steel all-thread to back up the recoil lug on the barrel, a good idea for walnut an laminate stocks without a full bedding block surrounding the action.
That Ruger Mk II M77 .458 WinMag belonging to Sir Gus has a 20" barrel. So if a 24" barrel does 2500 fps with a fair to middlin' handloaded 404-grain Shock Hammer or CEB 400-gr FN, the 20" jungle carbine might do 2440 fps, all else being equal except barrel length. Not too shabby. Would a 20" barrel do 2540 fps with the 2600 fps load from the 24" barrel ? Maybe so.
I bet swiftshot said something brilliant, just above this post. I have him on ignore.
Freki has been weighed with the Nightforce SHV 3-10x42mm scope, Burris Low 30mm X-Tac rings on a Near Mfg. 20-MOA rail and a Griffin Armament silencer mount on the muzzle threads instead of thread protector: 10 pounds exactly. Add the rubber lens caps and she is 1.5 ounces overweight, unless the Griffin mount is replaced with the thread protector.
Whenever the holidays, weather, and a shutdown of the local public range get cleared up, I will be zeroing Freki at 600 yards. With a 30-MOA holdover should be pretty close at 1000 yards. 'Puter says 29.93 MOA is needed. Holding the 30-MOA tickmark a gnat's eyebrow below center at 1000 yards should do. Might have to set up a billboard for a 3-feet square "bullseye" at 1000 yards, if Farmers Smith or Jones, one or the other, will allow it.
Geri is the other .458 WinMag M98 of equal weight and barrel length, though 1:14" twist instead of 1:10" like Freki, and 0.2" shorter throat than SAAMI .458 WinMag. That is still about twice the throat length of a SAAMI .458 Lott. Re-throating is only a few twists of a reamer.
Geri will be next at 1000-yard shooting. Geri and Freki both will get loads of Benchmark fine-tuned for 2500 fps MV with the 404-gr Shock Hammer.
Freki and Geri are the names of the "Wolves of Odin," as well as the "rat terriers of the Square Table."
Sir John, Great to see you posting. Hope you are getting back on the horse and riding the range as usual, with your trusty .458 WinMag in the scabbard.
Yes, the Square Table is truly square. Oaken planks are added to two sides of the table whenever it grows for new membership. Whatever carpentry and finest oak that it takes to keep it true and square, it shall be done, in honor of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
A .458 WinMag suitable for any game, whether Sheep-Hippo-Varmint or 1000-yard Creedmost Match:
MOAR reticle on the 3-10x42mm SHV (Sooter-Hunter-Varmint) scope from Nightforce: Dial the 10X down to 5X and the subtensions in MOA will double, theoretically:
Sir Ron, I think your about ready to go "Creedmoor" with that rig. On the Square versus Rectangle; wise choice. A Square table allows room for each knight in the growing membership to line up their 458WM's in front of their place irrespective of the number they bring. My one Whitworth has room to breath sitting across from your Wolf pack and all their friends on our growing square table. If the table was a rectangle we might have a problem with space! My Favorites are the Ruger Canoe Paddle Stock and the #1 but if I got a call to Judea & Samaria, I might like to borrow Freki and a bucket full of the 400 twins. Should be sufficient as a stopping rifle all the way up to Toyota's. F01
Sir Dennis, Maybe it should be called the CreedMOAR Match and see if Nightforce will kick in for sponsorship. Jim Shockey for MC heh-heh-heh. The Square Table measures 30 feet on each side, and growing. That is a 120 linear feet to scoot up 40 chairs. One more Knight and we will enlarge it to 40 feet square for elbow room.
Excellent idea about providing overwatch in Gaza. Shock Hammer will be great for rats fleeing the flooding of the tunnels. A CEB Safari Solid for the Toyota "Technicals" at closer ranges, after softening them up with the Shock Hammers at longer ranges. Ultralites and hang gliders carrying the two-legged rats should make for some good sport.
Creedmost, CreedMOAR, or CreedMOA-QUAD ? Depends on whether either Nightforce or SWFA make the best sponsorship offer, heh-heh-heh. SWFA scope shown here might give the most bang for the buck, check it out at swfa.com ...
Creedmost, CreedMOAR, or CreedMOA-QUAD ? Depends on whether either Nightforce or SWFA make the best sponsorship offer, heh-heh-heh. SWFA scope shown here might give the most bang for the buck, check it out at swfa.com ...
I have about a dozen between the 6X and 10X SS's. They are really tough to beat for the money. Mine are all the mil versions but I haven't ever had a lick of trouble with one of them. I use the old hose washer trick to make a hasty zero stop in them. They have alot going for them, and the 6X with the excellent Mil Quad reticle will let you shoot a bunch further than you would think and they're better in low light.
Sir Scotty, Good review of SWFA I see. Fixed 6X is sold out, so must be others who share your enthusiasm. The MIL-QUAD is also amazing:
Happy to be finally catching onto SWFA scopes. The bullseye at 1000 yards is one mil square, but this old dog is stuck on MOA for the Creedmoa Match at 600, 800, and 1000 yards.
Maybe someday a .458 WinMag will go to King of One Mile. The best VLD bullet for that is yet to be decided. Maybe pair a 60-MOA tilt rail with a MIL-QUAD reticle for that heh-heh-heh.
Apparently Lab Radar has a resale value of zero now. Glad I never bought one now. Not so for the Garmin XERO C1 PRO. It seems to be the Dick Tracy's Watch of chronographs. The "Pocket Clock-it" is what the developers jokingly call it. Soon as logistics permit I will get a .458 WinMag out and clock it. Should be helpful for fine tuning the Creedmoa Match loads, if it is as good as they say. I bit the bullet and got one before killing off my opticals. Seems so simple even a caveman can do it.
Apparently Lab Radar has a resale value of zero now.
Sir Ron,
Thanks for the link to the new product. I was planning on getting a new chronograph soon & this does look very interesting. Recently, my friend John & I were doing some plinking at the cabin in between squirrel hunts and using his LabRadar connected to a Microsoft Surface. Fancy schmancy combined with aggravating & glitchy made it a mildly annoying setup. I'm glad that there might be a superior option now as I don't think I would have bought a LabRadar after using his:
I went out & read a few reviews of the Garmin & the overall feedback has been very positive. In the list below from Outdoor Life, the pros are long & the single con will probably disappear soon:
I got a tip from my Gunsmith's CNC-CAD-CAM-Machinist son on 12-21-2023. There were 9 units in stock at www.wallsrifles.com in Florida. I jumped on it and ordered one. It arrived 12-26-2023, a day earlier than tracking initially predicted. I would normally not order 4 days from Christmas, but I dared it for the Garmin Xero C1 Pro. What a present for myself ! Thank You Jesus !
The young man, Austin, who tipped me off is a Genius Gunsmith himself, tutored by his Pop since he was able to walk around in the shop. He is a match shooter and prefers long-range rigs of rat-caliber. Everybody is crazy about something I reckon, or they lead dull lives. For some the craze is the .458 Winchester Magnum, which can also be used for rats, and anything else.
I looked at the WallsRifles site after mine arrived and there was only one unit left. Out of stock everywhere else I looked. There will be more I am sure.
Austin also recommended a couple of storage cases for the Garmin Xero. The "Nanuk 904" is from Canada, about $40 (USD) via Amazon, this is Austin's:
The "Apache 1800" is from China, for $12.98 from the hometown Harbor Freight store, here's mine:
Keep the Mighty 458 WM fires burning on through 2024 and beyond Gentlemen, may all have a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year!
Never fear, Sir Jerry, the fire that was lit in 1956 will burn proudly into the New Year as an eternal flame. King Four Five Eight was shooting in 1955, shipping out all over the world by May 1956. Arbitrarily, considering the royal gestation, January 1, 2024 will be named as the 68th birthday of King Four Five Eight.
BTW, shooting deer at 436 yards with a .300 PRC and a 230-gr Hornady A-Tip match bullet is considered good practice for the .458 WinMag deer rifle.
Don't feel bad about not using your .458 WinMag for everything. Sir Jerry shows where to shoot them, with either rat-caliber or .458.
Keep the Mighty 458 WM fires burning on through 2024 and beyond Gentlemen, may all have a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year!
Never fear, Sir Jerry, the fire that was lit in 1956 will burn proudly into the New Year as an eternal flame. King Four Five Eight was shooting in 1955, shipping out all over the world by May 1956. Arbitrarily, considering the royal gestation, January 1, 2024 will be named as the 68th birthday of King Four Five Eight.
BTW, shooting deer at 436 yards with a .300 PRC and a 230-gr Hornady A-Tip match bullet is considered good practice for the .458 WinMag deer rifle.
Don't feel bad about not using your .458 WinMag for everything. Sir Jerry shows where to shoot them, with either rat-caliber or .458.
LOL Sir Ron, yes, hunted a monster all season, just filling meat tags as time is running out, will hit zone 11 and 13 over in Arkansas tomorrow looking for two more old barren in the withers grey faced doe deer. may as well turn that paper into meat, big cut i set up on is 757 yards wide, wish i was good enough to cover that with a 458 WM, but alas, i must yield to .8 b.c. at 2930 fps with range finder and twisty scope knobs ; ]
Keep the Mighty 458 WM fires burning on through 2024 and beyond Gentlemen, may all have a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year!
Never fear, Sir Jerry, the fire that was lit in 1956 will burn proudly into the New Year as an eternal flame. King Four Five Eight was shooting in 1955, shipping out all over the world by May 1956. Arbitrarily, considering the royal gestation, January 1, 2024 will be named as the 68th birthday of King Four Five Eight.
BTW, shooting deer at 436 yards with a .300 PRC and a 230-gr Hornady A-Tip match bullet is considered good practice for the .458 WinMag deer rifle.
Don't feel bad about not using your .458 WinMag for everything. Sir Jerry shows where to shoot them, with either rat-caliber or .458.
LOL Sir Ron, yes, hunted a monster all season, just filling meat tags as time is running out, will hit zone 11 and 13 over in Arkansas tomorrow looking for two more old barren in the withers grey faced doe deer. may as well turn that paper into meat, big cut i set up on is 757 yards wide, wish i was good enough to cover that with a 458 WM, but alas, i must yield to .8 b.c. at 2930 fps with range finder and twisty scope knobs ; ]
They have re-stocked. 12 in stock just now, Garmin Xero C1 Pro.
You’re going to love it. No more nonsense. Set it on the bench and shoot. It doesn’t miss a shot. Best thing I’ve gotten for shooting in a long time. Next to the SuperTrickler.
Xero is looking to be everybody's hero. Such a tough and compact item that the Apache 1800 is overkill, let alone the Nanuk. Mainly the little hardcase is to keep it from getting lost in a pants pocket.
Dang it just two days left to finish that 500 Jeffery that has been a WIP since 2003, if I want to get it done in 2023. Ah well, I am past the 20-year mark anyway. Shooting for 2024 now. Meanwhile, the next .458 WinMag, a so much more versatile chambering:
Sorry it is a .300 WinMag instead of a 7mm RemMag.
I saw some pictures of a Winchester Model 70 from 1951 recently, pristine, like brand new in an aged 72-y.o. original cardboard box. Chambered in 7x57mm Mauser, it used the same action as used on the African .458 WinMag of 1956. Little African, Big African. Karamojo Bell would have loved to brain elephants with the Little African.
I might be able to post some images of the Little African if the man who recently adopted it doesn't mind. But right now I am having some internet connectivity issues slowing me down. Beautiful rifle, that Little African.
Internet working OK. The man says OK to post pictures. He does not care about showing his serial number, not paranoid. But just trying to be polite I hid the last 3 digits of his 6-digit SN from 1951 production.
Sir Jerry is the man. He is a highly skilled gunnecologist who does thorough gunnecologic exams on 72-year-olds in a most professional manner. Forearm screw hole exam:
Buttstock fiddleback exam:
Obviously she is a cherry of a Standard Rifle.
Marvelous how they also used the same standard M70 action on the African model for the first time in 1956. Both a 7x57mmM and a .458 WM using the same bolt stroke. Simply mahvelous.
What a beautiful rifle. Thanks Sir Ron for posting. And one pic that shows chrony results at 2534 fps for that ancient ammo - say, I must be ancient too! My first bought centerfire was an in-grease Brasilian Mauser in 7 x 57. When cleaned up it was at least as beautiful as that M70 - but of course not as a sporting rifle. I bought a box of CIL 160grs and took it deer hunting. But, alas, It needed a scope for my purposes and I refused to spoil it by having to alter some pieces (bolt handle) and mount a scope by removing some wood and changing its appearance. It was returned where purchased for a '98 Military Mauser chambered to .30-06. BUT, I was confident that 160gr roundnose bullets at ~2600 fps was adequate for moose where they play hide 'n seek.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but it brought back memories. BTW, I did fire it twice at a running deer through woods - missed both shots. That helped persuade me it (or I) needed a scope.
Sir Bob, Thank Sir Jerry for that. I lusted after an as-original Modelo Argentino M98 7x57mm Mauser once upon a time. Had the owner wanted to part with it I would have used it for Karamojo Bell cosplay. Pith helmet, step ladder for shooting over the elephant grass, and a 7x57. What fun. No scope needed for elephant braining inside of 50 yards. Too bad elephants were scarce in New Brunswick. Heh-heh-heh.
Sir Tony, Welcome, my pleasure to post no mere gunporn here. Sir Jerry's stuff has highest order social value, as usual.
Making the 10-pound weight limit for CreedMOA Match, or just keeping your .458 WinMag light and lively, here is some trivia:
That is the sort of scope that has survived Phil Shoemaker's Ol'Ugly .458 WinMag and Alaska PH-ing for about four decades. With that scope in old original Weaver "steel strap" rings he had to add about a pound of lead to his fiberglass stock for comfort. Is Phil recoil shy, or did he add lead for balance, or both ? Heh-heh-heh.
The little rubber bikinis (scope condoms) that go in your pocket when weather is good are my favorites.
Mixture of 1" and 30mm LOW rings above are a starting point for comparison, of various heights and diameters. Note that you will add 2 to 4 ounces of cross-slot, steel bases or rail to fit all but the Ruger OEM rings. CZ rings on integral bases also are another can of worms, with OEM "high heavies" and aftermarket rings, etc.
Now that I have discovered SWFA, I see that they also sell rings that are twins of the Burris Xtreme Tacticool rings. Good price, like Burris, I wonder if they are made in China like Burris ? Japanese SWFA scopes are great buys. I am going to have to try another one of the SWFA scopes when a certain sold-out model is back in stock. Will be sure to get some of their rings for a try too. I now have one SWFA scope, late to the party.
That is definitely a fine looking M70 7mm. The 7x57 is nice mild mannered cartridge. This jogged my memory, I have a Ruger Round Top 7x57 in the safe. I bought it from a local pawnshop in the early 1990's. I replaced the aluminum floor plate that was cracked where the action screw goes through. If I recall correctly, I replaced the Weaver rings which had one or more screws stripped. Retained the 4x Leupold that was on it. Bought some Norma brand 154 grain (I think), carried it to range, and amazed myself and my neighbor with the 5 shot groups it shot. He had to shoot it to believe it. I think that was the last time that I fired it. I should get some brass and dies for it.
Sir Ron, I think your future stainless Ruger 458 Winchester should be a fine one. What are your barrel and stock plans on that one ?
Here is that SWFA scope, weight exactly as advertised by SWFA:
It shaves a whopping 0.6 ounce off of the NightForce SHV:
SWFA 10x42mm SS HD: 140 MOA of adjustment for elevation and windage, 3.9" eye relief, parallax adjustable with in-line rear focus 10m to infinity MOA-Quad reticle to -40 MOA at 10X (second focal plane)
NF 3-10x42mm SHV: 90 MOA elevation/80 MOA windage adjustment, 3.5" eye relief, parallax side focus (old non-illuminated model) 25m to infinity MOAR reticle to -30 MOA at 10X (second focal plane)
The newer SHV has illuminated reticle and parallax fixed at 125m, and is advertised at 22.2 ounces.
So, the SWFA has an easy 20 MOA to spare without needing a tilt base. Dial from 100-yard zero to 600-yard zero. Being a fixed 10X it is probably more rugged than a variable.
I suppose the NF SHV might handle it too by dialing without a tilt rail, if using those integral Ruger or CZ bases without the weight-adding steel rails ...
Some other interesting scopes for 1000-yard CreedMOA Match shooting with .458 WinMag, they have reticles usable at lower powers, but still, it is better than 1X iron sights, whether the eye is young or old:
See-through rings are usually found on the rifle of a beginner, on his first centerfire, which is usually a Marlin .30-30 WCF. That was my story but I did not stick to it. Now I am trying it again, either as a test of the definition of insanity (doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results) or simply as my second childhood in old age.
It barely works to clear that huge ocular bell on the Vortex 2-7x32mm, allowing use of peep sight:
It also allows a check on squash down when the aluminum tunnel collapses, use feeler gauge to measure distance between peep and scope after each shot. Heh-heh-heh.
Many Thanks for the kind words Gentlemen, the old 7mm is way past time to put it to work, i dont think it'll mind being pulled up off that lifetime retirement program it's previous owner assigned it, the load chronographed is a load i put together for Wife's tang safety Ruger 77 with 175gr Hornady round nose bullets, in case she ever wants to hunt.
I wont fire the vintage ammunition, willl pull bullets and save for later, dump powder, knock out the primers, resize with fresh primers and build a hunting load with IMR-4350 and 175gr Speer Grand Slams, they should come in around 2650-2700 fps with 48-49 grs IMR-4350, easy 350 yard hunting with the 4X Unertl Hawk scope, that old WW brass from those days is gold to me and a sheer pleasure to work with.
The saami spec'd FN Browning 458 WM's old loads are the 500gr Partitions at 2155 fps and 450gr BBW #13 flat nosed solids a hundred fps faster, i have Ele and Lion on my mind, those two with a hefty bag of plains game will be a very fitting Safari for those two rifles, any situation from a full out rodeo to clean quick kills can be handled, i have no performance concerns from either rifle or loads capabilities.
Looking forward to Sir Ron's Creedmost results ; ]
Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year to You and Yours Gentlemen.
That is definitely a fine looking M70 7mm. The 7x57 is nice mild mannered cartridge. This jogged my memory, I have a Ruger Round Top 7x57 in the safe. I bought it from a local pawnshop in the early 1990's. I replaced the aluminum floor plate that was cracked where the action screw goes through. If I recall correctly, I replaced the Weaver rings which had one or more screws stripped. Retained the 4x Leupold that was on it. Bought some Norma brand 154 grain (I think), carried it to range, and amazed myself and my neighbor with the 5 shot groups it shot. He had to shoot it to believe it. I think that was the last time that I fired it. I should get some brass and dies for it.
Sir Ron, I think your future stainless Ruger 458 Winchester should be a fine one. What are your barrel and stock plans on that one ?
Sir Larry, Asante sana for asking. Either McGowen or Pac-Nor No. 5 sporter, stainless, 1:14" twist, 20" length. The factory "All Weather" stock will be used first, with the 5/8"-thick pad replaced by a 1" Decelerator. A front sight and peep not finalized yet. The B&C Medalist stock might replace the factory tupperware, I have one on hand that weighs in at a tad less than 2 pounds.
Altogether about like a Ruger Alaskan Guide but in a better chambering, .458 WinMag.
RC , when you have the time will you share the make and mod. of the peep sight on the marlin please
Sir Allen, Those are the standard Ruger-Marlin factory peep and rail and a tritium-powered green fiber optic front bead. No modifications. Like XS Sights factory installed.
What I really need is some high QRW rings from Leupold as long as the ocular bell clears the peep. I did not have any of those on hand, always bought lows or mediums. Whatever scope and QD Levers will clear the peep will be used if the see-through rings with Vortex crash and burn.
In any case, a slight add-on comb riser will be used, weld cheek hard for peep, caress cheek for scope.
Sir Jerry, You might be my hero, and a most august Knight of the Square Table, but I have to correct you on the "Pastor." That would be for Sirs Bob and Dennis that have the Chaplaincy Commissions at the Square Table. My office here is merely that of "Surgeon" with no duties other than unofficial Hand of King Four Five Eight. As such I am pretty much a most common sinner undeserving of the title "Pastor." But you can call me "Doc" by which I have been addressed since 1982. Having an MD on your rap sheet is not a proud thing nowadays, just a funny thing, good for a laugh at a party. Given the ways of the medical mafia of late, crime-bossed by big pharma and big government, I am sure glad to be retired and do not have to participate in the present ghoulishness.
Anyway, so glad you are playing along.
You are so right. CREEDMOST is what it must be called. Call it CREEDMOA and the CREEDMIL guys get upset. CREEDMOST it must be !!!
BTW all .44-bore and larger rifles will be allowed, including .50-bores, just has to be a 10-pound rifle or lighter in weight and a 3-pound or heavier trigger.
Firing will be from prone, or sitting or standing with portable shooting sticks that are not attached to rifle. Shooting sticks as only rest allowed. Back position will also be permissible.
600-, 800- and 1000-yard bullseye is 3-feet square, black-painted plywood attached to white billboard backer, maybe just an outer 8-feet square of plywood. This is CREEDMOST Match rules still in the fluxing stage.
Should we allow the .50-bores and larger to have a 12-pound weight limit ? Might give them a fighting chance against a 10-pound .458, heh-heh-heh.
More for Sir Allen's question about the XS Sights factory installed by Ruger on their Marlin, remembering that 400- and 404-gr bullets work wonders in the .458 WinMag, and the .45-70 Gov't. lead the way with that 405-grainer in 1873:
advertised at 7.3 pounds, mine weighed 7.25 pounds.
That is definitely a fine looking M70 7mm. The 7x57 is nice mild mannered cartridge. This jogged my memory, I have a Ruger Round Top 7x57 in the safe. I bought it from a local pawnshop in the early 1990's. I replaced the aluminum floor plate that was cracked where the action screw goes through. If I recall correctly, I replaced the Weaver rings which had one or more screws stripped. Retained the 4x Leupold that was on it. Bought some Norma brand 154 grain (I think), carried it to range, and amazed myself and my neighbor with the 5 shot groups it shot. He had to shoot it to believe it. I think that was the last time that I fired it. I should get some brass and dies for it.
Sir Ron, I think your future stainless Ruger 458 Winchester should be a fine one. What are your barrel and stock plans on that one ?
Sir Larry, Asante sana for asking. Either McGowen or Pac-Nor No. 5 sporter, stainless, 1:14" twist, 20" length. The factory "All Weather" stock will be used first, with the 5/8"-thick pad replaced by a 1" Decelerator. A front sight and peep not finalized yet. The B&C Medalist stock might replace the factory tupperware, I have one on hand that weighs in at a tad less than 2 pounds.
Altogether about like a Ruger Alaskan Guide but in a better chambering, .458 WinMag.
I will be interested to see how the All Weather stock holds up in the recoil lug area. I believe it was Phil Shoemaker that told me they did not do well with the 416 Ruger. I was considering the use of one, but culled the idea.
Sir Larry, Besides a new recoil pad it would have a piece of steel allthread to back up the action recoil lug and J-B Weld bedding. Pillars from Brownells.
The B&C would be the no-brainer, lighter too after the add-ons to the "All Weather" plastic, until I have to use a slip-on pad for LOP adjustment on the B&C: Adds about 4 ounces.
Two stocks are better than one. Anything but a Hogue !
Lol on the Hogue. I used an Alaskan 416 Ruger one year with the Hogue factory stock. My 2 complaints about it were, the wide-arse forend and the too compressible recoil pad. It as though the recoil pad would bottom out. I will say the rifle grouped well with it. I guess that I could have adapted to the wide forend. But, the recoil pad on this one would have had to be replaced. I fired 375 Rugers with the same model stock and never noticed the pad issue.
Since the McMillan's are no longer in my stock ordering line up, I have used B&C and H-S Precision for the Rugers.
Sir Ron, As #2 I have some Good News for you, as you said: “ As such I am pretty much a most common sinner undeserving of the title "Pastor."” you are fully paid up in dues for any position or title should you so choose. The sacrifice that was made was made for all who accept it. Sir Bob as #1 will be sure to agree that he and I are “most common sinners” as well. I’m glad to see the Creedmost rules included shooting sticks. We, my 458 and I, never leave home without them! F01
Lol on the Hogue. I used an Alaskan 416 Ruger one year with the Hogue factory stock. My 2 complaints about it were, the wide-arse forend and the too compressible recoil pad. It as though the recoil pad would bottom out. I will say the rifle grouped well with it. I guess that I could have adapted to the wide forend. But, the recoil pad on this one would have had to be replaced. I fired 375 Rugers with the same model stock and never noticed the pad issue.
Since the McMillan's are no longer in my stock ordering line up, I have used B&C and H-S Precision for the Rugers.
It'll be nice when Bansner starts inletting for the Rugers. He seems to have a nice line up of stocks that are functional and light.
I agree RC, you better be up early in the morning if you wanna stay ahead of Gunner!
I agree on the Bansner. Lightweight & Tough. I have a M77 that was modified to a Mark II type for a 375 Ruger. I like the stock a lot, the modification work not so much. Ahh, but the modifier screwed up a McMillan that was McMillan inletted for an identical rifle. Anyways, I handled and shot the Bansner enough that I am a fan of their products. From pictures that I have seen and feed back from one owner that I knew, Wayne York's stocks also seem top notch.
thank you Sir Ron , that looks like it is made on the rail. I need one that clamps to a scope base . my nephew is giving me a side lock BP gun that is D&T from the factory that i want to put one on it
thank you Sir Ron , that looks like it is made on the rail. I need one that clamps to a scope base . my nephew is giving me a side lock BP gun that is D&T from the factory that i want to put one on it
LOL, ten four Sir Ron, Dr/surgeon of the mighty 458 WM it will be, i always looked at educators/professors of information as speakers for the cause, hence Pastor/Reverend, all in good fun, glad we have a few men of the clergy here, Lord knows my cigar smoking foul mouthed dirty joke telling redneck self needs it.
Hey, wasn't there a song about not messing with a missionary man?
Sir Ron, As #2 I have some Good News for you, as you said: “ As such I am pretty much a most common sinner undeserving of the title "Pastor."” you are fully paid up in dues for any position or title should you so choose. The sacrifice that was made was made for all who accept it. Sir Bob as #1 will be sure to agree that he and I are “most common sinners” as well. I’m glad to see the Creedmost rules included shooting sticks. We, my 458 and I, never leave home without them! F01
"Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners - of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his immense patience as an example of those who would believe in him and receive eternal life." - the Apostle Paul in 1 Timothy, chap.1, vs 15 - 16 (NIV)
Heh, heh, heh, I am a backslid Southern Baptist. They did not allow drinking or dancing, even though the church deacons worked at the local distillery. So I married a Methodist preacher's daughter and never did learn to dance. Amen to Brother Sir Jerry and the Reverend Sir Bob.
You know, the Ruger-Marlin is a tough one to scope appropriately and still have ready access to the peep as backup. I am about to give up and just put a red dot on it ! A bolt-action or a Ruger No. 1 can handle about anything, including any of the following:
Here is a shocker, found at a gun show for sale price of 59.95 USD (MSRP at Amazon was about 20 USD more). The rings that come with it are trash, possibly useful for a .22 Short, but dust covers do keep the dust off:
Advertised at 6.3" and 6.5" from different sources, whatever, it is adequate.
Another gun show find for 249.95 USD with a laser bore-sighter for .45-70 thrown in for free:
Weight on the dwarf 3-9x42mm with 30mm tube is about 17.6 ounces, less than the 3-10x42 NF SHV and 10x42 SWFA. It sure would look different on a .458 WinMag, just sayin'. Eye relief is plentiful for sure, about as long as the scope itself. Field of view and internal adjustment ranges are nothing to write home about, however. Everything costs something.
The upside-down Christmas tree is a ranging device. Horizontal lines are about 7.5 MOA apart to my eyeball, evenly spaced vertically, not specified in manual. The top one is 18" wide at 100 yards, on 9X, IIRC. Then each one below it is same width at 25 yards more: 125, 150, 175, 200, 225, 250 ... better check the manual on that. A Vietnam era style "man kill" reticle for jungle clearing ranges. 18" being about width of enemy torso, or depth of game animal chest, I reckon.
LOL Sir Ron, you're having too much fun with all those wares, BTW, if you ever get tired of that Marlin Trapper i have a cousin looking for one, you'll get that Creedmost match handled just fine, still thinking of my saami FN Browning 458 WM and safari, iirc i did get, or very near 2300 fps with 500gr Partitions and AA-2460, man that's hard to beat at 3.340"
I need to find some Woodleigh 215gr solids for my little 303 British double, even little doubles need a good solid load, also iirc, Bell slew some Ele's with those too.
Sir Jerry, Asante sana for noticing. I am OCD about guns and hunting and I will do what I can about it. I am sure you know the feeling. If I can't go shoot something, I am preparing to, to no end. Here is another funny, the Dwarf Scope on the Dwarf Rifle, a .458 B&M+ (Winchester Throated), which, if barrel was not just 16.9" long, could run with your Big Dog FN Browning .458 WM:
Fits perfectly on the Near Mfg. 20-MOA rail with LOW QRW. That rail is same length on Freki the FN M98 .458 WM+, works there too. Those rings get the scope tube about 0.30" above the top surface of the rail. Large objective bell has to taper over end of the rail so full bell diameter is out in front of the end of the rail. Barely works ! Would have to use it in the scout-scope location on the Ruger-Marlin peep-rail, and with higher rings, too funny ! Near 9" of eye-relief on 3X, near 5" on 9X, heh-heh-heh.
Please tell your cousin to keep the faith on the Ruger-Marlin, and keep looking ! I waited over 2 years for the local emporium to get one and they never did. Must have been a long waiting list and I was nowhere near the top of it. Then I strolled into a non-local emporium and they had 2 in stock for 2 days, before I left with the last one at full MSRP+.
BTW, those Low QRW 30 mm rings have been lying fallow since 2013, when I walked into an emporium in Las Vegas and spied them. Finally found a use for them. Only time I have been to Sin City and what did I do ? Look for gunshops and Elvis impersonators. Oh, yeah, flew over the Grand Canyon on a helicopter ride with the Wife. Not enough gunshops in Las Vegas to make me ever want to go back there.
Well, since the .458 Winchester Magnum is my favorite, and I'm a long-time handloader, I'll make a comment or two:
I too like Ron Spomer comments even though they are often quite amateurish. He's a good talker and a friendly type guy. That's my first comment.
My second is this: I would never recommend this video to anyone interested in a .458 Winchester Magnum. He is simply too amateurish. All that he said and presented came from very limited research (available to anyone) and no personal experience. Many of the bullets for handloading that he talked about, he knew nothing about, like the MVs possible and their use. And he's giving advise to handloaders?! having never handloaded a .458 . . . has he ever fired a .458 Win?
Well, since the .458 Winchester Magnum is my favorite, and I'm a long-time handloader, I'll make a comment or two:
I too like Ron Spomer comments even though they are often quite amateurish. He's a good talker and a friendly type guy. That's my first comment.
My second is this: I would never recommend this video to anyone interested in a .458 Winchester Magnum. He is simply too amateurish. All that he said and presented came from very limited research (available to anyone) and no personal experience. Many of the bullets for handloading that he talked about, he knew nothing about, like the MVs possible and their use. And he's giving advise to handloaders?! having never handloaded a .458 . . . has he ever fired a .458 Win?
Quite superficial as it was, at least he has begun to pay some respect to the King of Cartridges. "Everyman's big bore" and "Most versatile ..." did cross his lips. However, he is strangely confused about whether .452-caliber handgun bullets may be satisfactorily used in the .458 WinMag, and he does not even include the 404-gr Shock Hammer in his list of bullets for the .458 WinMag !!!
A basic comment would be to tell that even in 1955-dated H. P. White Laboratory testing using that antique HiVel #2 powder (71.0 grains NOT COMPRESSED), a 500-grain WRA FMJ RN was propelled to 2160 fps from a 25"-barreled .458 WinMag at 3.340" COL, at low pressure of 50,410 psi. That was an instrumental velocity 20 feet from the muzzle, average for 10 shots. Corrected to MV that is 2174 fps, assuming BC 0f 0.295. 24" barrel velocity would be about 2159 fps MV.
That was reported to General (Ret. USA) Julian Sommerville Hatcher, Technical Editor for THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN, circa Nov. 8, 1955. Did Hatcher typo the CUP to psi in reporting that ? Even if it was actually 50,410 CUP, that is still much less than 60,000 psi, and less than the 53,000 CUP limit used back then, equivalent to 60,000 psi current SAAMI standard, which Ron Spomer had so much trouble remembering.
Also took him the longest time to remember the 460 Wby and 577 Tyrannosaur are more powerful than the .458 WinMag. He must be star-struck by his new discovery of the .458 WinMag. Maybe he will actually shoot one and handload some ammo for one, someday. If he does it and documents it with another Spomer-style video, we shall invite him to have a seat at the Square Table.
That last video would lead one to believe the .458 WinMag was plagued by super-compressed loads that pushed bullets out of the cases at the most inopportune times. Not so. There are all kinds of gossip out there, undocumented except by hearsay. Propaganda from the little old ladies promoting the .458 Lott.
Any factory ammo problems for the .458 WinMag were caused by sabotage, meaning the same quality control standards and incompetence, or malicious intent, as a Joe Biden voter. What competent handloader has ever been disappointed by the .458 WinMag ?
You guys are gassin' on it so hard i had to pull my little 303 double out of the safe and work up a solid load for it for the very first time, thread below, ALL things Africa belong in the King 458 WM thread imho ; ]
I would recommend the 303 British Double Rifle for shooting off of your step ladder in the elephant grass. Great for braining elephants according to Karamojo Bell. Many more great elephant hunters kept both feet on the ground and used a .458 WinMag. Some of them had bags 3 times the size of Bell's, and I do not mean their scrotums.
Make up some practice loads with those to match the .458 WM+ trajectory. Practice with scope and iron sights if you got 'em.
The only 7mm rifles in my cache are the 7x57mm Ruger M77 Mk II walnut & blue and a 7mm STW Remington M700 stainless/synthetic. Both are accurate shooters. Accuracy is about the only thing the 7mm STW has going for it.
Yes Sir, those solids would also be perfect for the tiny ten, plus, if a bull Eland, Wildebeest, Gemsbok, Zebra stallion etc turned to run after a soft nose bullet hit i bet busting them on the butt with that solid would roll them and may even exit the front.
A great addition to do the light lifting while the mghty 458 WM handled the hard work.
A followup on SWFA rings I said I wanted to try after discovering their scopes, late to the party:
If the crossbolt is square on both sides, or at least allows nuts on left side of rifle, then they do beat Burris X-Tac. Flat top too is an improvement, though Burris Picatinny tops come at extra cost. 1" inserts in 30mm rings is OK too, for free with every set ! All for a price that beats Burris. Cheap ! I have a new favorite ring, even if it is made in China like Burris.
Will be checking them out. Just ordered some. Probably made in the same Chinese factory as Burris X-Tac, but SWFA is trying harder with features and pricing.
Yep, I need to get out more often. Late to the party on many things, but ... Like a farm boy happy for bad weather so he can goof off ... I have just come into a collection of literature dating back into the middle of last century. Gun and hunting magazines. Wolfe pubs, NRA pubs, Precision Shooting, Muzzle Blasts, etc. These were from a faithful subscriber to many pubs who feels he has learned all he can from this thousand pounds of pulp. I will catch up on the issues I missed when I was working too many hours and moving about the country for school and jobs. I was hit or miss on subscriptions and newstand visits except for NRA pubs since the 1980s. Time to return to the past to marvel at how things used to be. Mostly better then than now. I do love my feeble, 89-y.o. Mother and being her care-taker, but man-oh-man am I going hunting if I out-live her.
So due to extenuating circumstances I am still ordering parts and planning another build. If I don't get to the M77 Hawkeye .458 WinMag soon, I am going to finish that .500 Jeffery CZ 550 Magnum out of boredom, and convert the CVA Scout .45-70 Gov't. into another .45-70 Elko Magnum (CIP) aka .45-2.6"-Sharps-Winchester-Throated (RIP), and window the Whitworth Mark X magazine box on the .458/.416 Ruger aka .458 Win Ruger (RIP), so it will hold 3 down instead of only two. If I screw that up, Sunny Hill Enterprises might have another #430 Assembly available, maybe holding 4 down. Pinching pennies comes first.
Parts is parts, here's a bargain, available for Ruger M77, wish they did this for Winchester M70 and Mauser M98:
And here is a 1905 vintage 404 Jeffery, the first ever supremely capable DG bolt-action magazine-repeater, the one that spawned the me-too .425 Westley Richards of 1909, .416 Rigby of 1911 and .375 H&H of 1912, ultimately leading to the victorious .458 Winchester Magnum of 1956, and it is missing some magazine parts !!!:
That steel plate on the front of the magazine well would be cut off from the M98 box and stuck on with J-B Weld if I did something like that. I don't need to go to that extreme, just need to figure out the best sidewall windowing pattern, similar to the .375 H&H above, or like the windows on the Winchester M70 RUM actions, heh-heh-heh.
So I posted the information on a Ruger No. 1-H Tropical Rifle in the great .458 Win. Mag. in the Single Shot Thread as to inform others on the Gunrunner Auction site in Burton Ohio about an hour from me as I've dealt with them before and have had no issues. Too bad I don't need another Rifle as I do like it! I know that might be Blasphemy here on the fire but what can ya do? Like Cochise "I speak the Truth"! LOL!!!
Sir Tony, Asante sana. She has been rode a bit hard, but just shows how useful she was for any game:
DESCRIPTION Ruger No. 1-H Tropical, .458 Win. magnum cal. falling block rifle. Serial #132-08095. Good condition. 24" heavy barrel has an excellent bore, fixed front and flip-up adjustable rear factory sights. Fitted with a Bushnell Scope Chief VI 3-9x40 scope with a duplex reticle and clear optics. 95% blue finish on the barrel with light muzzle wear. The right side of the receiver has excellent finish, the left side has heavy finish wear with some peppering. Checkered wood forearm and stock are in good shape with wear to the left side and has some scattered scratches and hits. Has a Ruger pistol grip cap and Ruger marked red rubber butt pad. Comes with a leather sling. Perfect for dangerous game on the Dark Continent or big brownies! You can load up it up or down and eat right to the holes!
By serial number she is of early 1981 production. My first one was acquired in 1984, my first "big bore." My last one was of 1980 production by SN, acquired in 2018, finally righting a wrong. Daisy was like new for about $800, a great find.
Sir Ron, Nice job following up to show the Square Table Members just what I was talking about. I agree she was rode a little on the harder side of the trail and possibly up hill at that. These dog gone things have always caught my eye. It's still not a pre. 64 Model 70 which to me would be no comparison along with a few others in this great caliber. We never know if someone is wanting to scratch that itch. She's still at $720.00 with a day and a half left at auction.
I made it through the holidays & I'm still hunting deer in MS on the weekends but now it's time to turn my attention back to my 7mm RM -> 458 WM conversion that I started last month. I've had a nice chat with my gunsmith, have a few more parts ordered plus got a cool Christmas present for myself when my new Garmin Xero from Walls Rifle (thanks for the tip Sir Ron!) arrived last week. I'm snowed in right now so I've been getting a lot of reading done on this thread, Sir Bob's blog & one of Mule Deer's books (The Big Book of Gun Gack...another Christmas present to myself). I had a couple of questions that I was trying to find the answers to but so far I haven't been able to quite cobble together the comprehensive answer I was looking for even though I had fun reading a bunch of posts with a lot of other useful information. So I finally decided to ask a few questions that I have been pondering on.
The rifle I'm converting is a Ruger M77 which has a magazine that is 3.425" (87mm) long. Some of the loads mentioned in these posts have a longer COL suitable for single-loading in a bolt action or Ruger No. 1. But for the questions below, I'm interested in handloads that are closer to the standard 3.340" (84.84mm) length that fit this magazine and would feed well. Per Bob's recommendation, I'm planning on putting a new 23" barrel on the rifle.
Q1: In several of these posts, the 404gr Shock Hammer is mentioned as an all-purpose round useful in many situations. For this bullet, what would be a good "mild" load powder-wise for hunting game like deer & hogs in the southeast? A larger plain games load? A powerful DG load? Not only am I new to the 458 WM but I'm also new to reloading so I have a lot to learn. For example, I'm assuming that limiting the COL to 3.340" could have a bearing on how long a projectile you want to use since it would affect the amount of powder you could put behind it. If I use a 1.44" Shock Hammer then that limits the room in the case to 1.9", I don't know how that might negatively affect creating the more powerful option or possibly require a different powder selection in order to do so.
Q2: The 404gr Shock Hammer & the CEB Solid are mentioned as a complimentary pairing of bullets to cover a variety of situations. Is the powder load for the CEB identical to the Hammer to achieve a similar trajectory? Or is a slight adjustment required to get them close to matching? Or do I simply determine that requirement on my nifty new chronograph & test that question for myself?
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
I do love my feeble, 89-y.o. Mother and being her care-taker, but man-oh-man am I going hunting if I out-live her.
Q3: Since I moved my 87-y.o. mother in next door to me this past July, my world has gotten a bit smaller (hopefully for many more years!) as my brother & I tag-team on her care. Travelling across the planet has come to a halt & my vacations have become shorter & more akin to a nearby "staycation". Since smaller lighter game closer to home will be my primary target for the foreseeable future, expanding your view past the vaunted 404gr Shock Hammer, are there any recommended loads using other bullets (e.g. Sir Bob's 250gr MonoFlex handload for deer & bear) that would yield results similar to a 45-70? The "...if I out-live her" part of the above quote made me laugh since I spent 4 days last year in a CCU staring at the ceiling after a heart attack. It's a coin flip as to who's going to last longer, so I just try to enjoy every day as much as possible.
Q4: If you wanted to launch a bullet from this rifle at a sheet of metal many hundreds of yards away and make a ringing sound, what would that round look like? Basically the goal being prioritizing accurate shootability with less drift & drop over terminal energy (which would probably still be substantial ). In what seems to be a trend amongst my peers, one of my hunting buddies has retired to spend more time at the family pecan farm in central AR helping out his parents. I think skeet shooting & long-distance target practice across the fields with a river levee for a backdrop is going to start being a common pastime in the near future.
Holiday time at the range with a wimpy 303 British, 9.3x74r & a pair of 375 H&H's
Sir Darryl, Good on you for getting that Garmin Xero. It will help immensely in getting you up to speed on your handloads, sort of a pun intended. I have not even had a chance to use mine yet, looking forward to the luxury. Count your blessings that you have a Brother nearby to share Mom. My three ne'er-do-well siblings do long-distance "love" only.
Q1: Do not fear limited case capacity even with 3.34" COL. Until you say what bullet and powder you want to use, I could flap about forever. AA-5744, H4198, Benchmark, AA-2230, AA-2460, H4895, and any powder good in the .223/5.56 Nato: Lots and lots of powder lots, just about any lot you got. Those are just a few of my favorites. I could do it all with H4895 from 60% of max SAAMI loads to +110% of max loads, if willing to load to pressures and lengths within the limits allowed for the .458 Lott. Make of brass too must be specified. Norma is over 4 grains H2O bigger and Peterson is about 1 grain smaller than all the following makes: Federal, Remington, Winchester, Hornady are all about the same, in the 94-95 grains H2O range. Also, do not think you are limited to 3.34" COL in your 3.425" inside length of magazine. Crimping locations that work well with the 404-gr Shock Hammer are 3.28", 3.38", 3.48", even 3.58" at the extreme. I like my CEB 400-gr FN loads at 3.36" COL. Your rifle will eject loaded, unfired rounds up to 3.54" COL, bullet tip clears to eject in the standard M77. Loads up to 3.395" COL work like a charm through your magazine repeater.
Q2: The 404-gr Shock Hammer and 400-gr CEB brass FN may use the same powder charge, but it all depends on factors mentioned in Q1.
One possible load combo with 78.0 grains of Benchmark: GM215M (same as F215) primer Norma brass case 24-1/4" barrel 1. 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.380" COL: 2463 fps MV (starting load) 2. 400-gr CEB Brass FN at 3.360" COL: 2506 fps MV (one and only load tried 5 holes in one at 50 yards) Differing charges and COLs: 3. 404-gr Shock Hammer at 3.580 COL with 84.0 grains of Benchmark: 2612 fps MV (Max load) Also 5 holes in one at 50 yards and only 1/2" above the CEB load, very near same POI. Close enough for pairing at 100 yards too, but when one bullet has a G1 BC 0f less than 0.2 and the other one is greater than 0.4, think dead-on at 100 yards with the FN and then 2 to 3 inches high with the pointy one.
Q3 & Q4: The 250-gr Monoflex at 2700 fps with either AA-5744 (not your usual reduced load) or H4198 is practical. +3000 fps not necessary but possible. A really fun load that duplicates the old BP 45-70 pretty closely and is good for banging gongs out to 600 yards: The old Lyman "Government" bullet, plain base, cast in Linotype and sized to .461" and powder-coat-painted as only lube, it weighs 487 grains like that. Load it to 3.375" COL with 36.0 grains of AA-5744 and NO FILLER. 24-7/8" CZ take-off barrel on a Pre-'64 M70, Oehler P35, 5-shot standard deviation = 3 fps, 1436 fps MV.
Pick up your load manual for the .458 Winchester Magnum and start low and work up, in your rifle. Let that Garmin Xero be your guide. 72.0 to 80.0 grains of AA-2230 is the short-COL SAAMI-satisfying charge range for the Barnes Original 400-grain cup&core SSSP.
Many here at the Square Table will be able to address any specific load suggestions for a given bullet, powder and brass combo. Soon you will too.
And hey, a pocket plate for the Ruger M77 has gone from Big Lake, AK to Anchorage, headed for KY, and I don't mean KY Jelly. Might be a good addition to your WunderRifle too, to turn it from a 4-shooter into a 5-shooter.
I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead of 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same brass
I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead of 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same brass
There you go. Sir John Load, for a 24" Whitworth Mk X. Might be 23.6" (600mm) or 24" to nearest inch. Specifics include bullet, brass, powder charge, primer, and COL. That is precise, good data.
Any scope good on a Ruger-Marlin .45-70 might be even better on a .458 WinMag. Here is the Brian Pearce choice:
That is from he that used a Marlin .45-70 Gov't. lever action on cape buffalo and wrote it up in the 2004 RIFLE #211 & #212, a two-parter. I have finally gotten the chance to read the second part, found in my new half-ton library addition. Pearce was using a Nikon 1.5-4.5x20mm in traditional location not complicated by the "peep&rail."
The 30mm tubed 1-5x24mm Leupold is 10.8" long and weighs 14.7 ounces and has less eye relief than the 2.5x20mm Ultralight (8" and 6.5 ounces). Pearce has mounted the big one ahead of the peep, proving that tunnel vision is better than a poke in the eye.
Illuminated reticle and parallax fixed at 150 yards is a mixed blessing. FireDot Duplex and huge internal adjustment range could be used for Creedmost 1000-yard shooting, but would require "Tennessee Holdover" using the "uncluttered" reticle on 5X. Dialing might be advisable with this scope.
RIFLE #211 is ironically where Ross Seyfried wrote "In Defiance of the .458 Winchester." What ? The .458 WinMag totally inadequate for Ross ? Or was Ross totally inadequate for it ? Meanwhile, Brian Pearce was bowling over cape buffalo with 405-gr Cor Bon FP PEN solids at about 1800 fps MV from his Marlin .45-70 Gov't.
"The recovered bullet on the left completely penetrated both shoulders of an old bull, traveled 7 yards and then went through both shoulders of a cow. The bullet on the right penetrated from rump to brisket of the ancient buffalo."
The CEB 400-grainer would be a better penetrator, even in a .458 WinMag, despite Ross Seyfried's opinion. Opinions, everybody has one. The 400-gr short-nosed version for lever actions has long been available. The 400-gr longer-nosed version was a special order from Michael McCourry greasing the skids. Hopefully CEB will make it a regular offerinng.
Elvis was last sighted at the KFC in Whitehorse, Yukon, headed for interior Alaska. He was heard to be saying "thank you very much" as he left with his to-go bucket of fried chicken. He spoke that in central Denaakk'e Athabascan dialect: Enaa Baasee' I think he has been watching Life Below Zero spinoffs on TV.
Here is the picture of the FMJ FN "solids" from Cor Bon. They have a 0.340" meplat, according to Brian Pearce. They are not as non-deformable as the CEB brass solids, and the 74% meplat will not penetrate as well as the 67% CEB BBW#13 nose profile, but still one bullet passed through a bull and a cow on broadside shoulder shot:
Pearce's Marlin was a 1972 version with 22" barrel of 1:20" twist and had 12 grooves and lands. His stated MV was 1793 fps, not 1650 fps as advertised for the factory load. And here is his Williams peep sight accuracy, almost as good as he did with the Nikon scope:
The cropped off text is finished here, as copied from above, goes with first image in this post: "The recovered bullet on the left completely penetrated both shoulders of an old bull, traveled 7 yards and then went through both shoulders of a cow. The bullet on the right penetrated from rump to brisket of the ancient buffalo."
Buffalo hunt was in Part II of "The .45-70 in Africa" RIFLE #212, March 2004. Finally I have read it and another amazing feature of the #211+#212 combo is that in #211 Dave Scovill wrote of converting a Ruger M77 MKII .338 WinMag to .375 H&H, and in #212 he followed up with the telling of how Phil Shoemaker absconded with it to Alaska.
"It didn't take long for the stock to crack ..." They replaced the factory walnut with a Ruger factory synthetic stock and off it went to Alaska. I am only 20 years late in reading about that, though I knew from Phil's posts here that he and his guides got that rifle.
The killer with Marlins, and I have owned, used and reviewed many of them since 1972, was the overall feel of the rifle, which included stock design, drop at heal, the pad provided and the low comb when using a scope, was never as comfortable or natural to the hold for me compared to a.458 Model 70.
My last one was a Cowboy version with the 26" octagon barrel which I reviewed when released. It was a great rifle but even the straight grip as per the 1972 model was not as natural to grasp as the inbetween designs with the pistol grip and the 22" barrels.
Loved the long barrel and the 10 rounds it held but it really needed to be limited to milder loads for shooting comfort. Also, the POI shifted as the magazine emptied, not enough to miss game but enough to be able to record a variable when shooting off the bench.
I sold mine and kept the .458.Model 70, something I never regretted.
Ditto Sir Woods. The rifle would string vertically as the 10-round magazine emptied, eh ? Serviceable, but not as perfect as a good .458 WinMag.
Mike said it best as the OP, everyone should experience a .458. Not firing off a shot and handing it off, but playing around with it, experimenting with bullet weights and powders and then using it in the field. The more years you give it, the more respect you will afford it.
Name the animal, we'll name the load. It's that easy.
Given the discussions and experience on this thread with the 45-70 I thought I would take advantage of the advice the Knights might be willing to provide.
Planning to use the Ruger #3 200th liberty anniversary 45-70 I inherited from my late brother for whitetail next Fall. I haven’t reloaded much for the 45-70 and haven’t thought of it as deer rifle. But I’m limited to a single shot rifle, so this seems like a reasonable choice to consider.
I would value recommendations from the Square Table on specific bullets which will expand reliably out to 200-250 yds, if needed, on large Upper Midwest whitetails and deliver a definitive blow at those ranges. Preliminary review seems to suggest 300-350 grain SP or HP bullets. Does that sound like the right direction or is a 400-405 grain bullet a better choice?
I have a fair amount of AA2230 which I use for the 458 WM, so thinking about starting with that powder. Other choices I might consider with these bullets?
The 350 grain Hornady FP with RL7 or H4198 is a great shooting combo in a few 45-70's I have used it in. Runs around 1900-2000 FPS and should shoot through a couple deer if needed. You'd need something to dope that 250 range, but out to 200 with smart zeroing could get you there fairly easily. Good luck, the ol 45-70 is pretty keen to please.
Wildcatter264, A flat nosed bullet in 458 caliber doesn’t need to expand to kill deer at 250 yards. I use cast in my 458wm at 1750-1950 fps and it kills just fine. Sir Bob has a lot of 45-70 loads he can share using a Ruger #1 and jacketed bullets.
H-4198 under 250gr monoflex for 2600 fps or 300gr TTSX for 2450 fps, either would clean 250-300 yards with ease, AA-2230 may get you there too, albeit compressed loads, which i dont mind at all.
As with Odonata's brace of rifles containing the 303 British, 9.3x62 and a pair of 375's, augmenting arms to go with the great 458 WM is all part of the fun, being accused of being a facilitator is never a bad thing, the 45-70 is certainly in this group.
Excellent inputs from the Square Table Knights above.
The only thing I might add is that some of those Ruger No. 1 rifles have very short throats, and sometimes need to have the throat lengthened a bit in order to use all bullets without trimming brass short, etc. A 350-gr Hornady RNSP might jam into the rifling when crimped on cannelure in some rifles, whereas the 405-gr Remington FNSP has an ogive designed for "no-throat" and chambers with ease.
I like a 400-grainer at 1800 fps in a Marlin 1895 or Winchester 1886, but not less than 2000 fps in a Ruger No. 1. Cast bullets or solids do kill well with little or no expansion, and so will about any other bullet of .458 caliber ! A 250-grainer at 2600, is pretty neat from a Ruger No. 1. Almost as much fun as the .458 WinMag downloaded to 2700 fps instead of 3000 fps. Higher velocity is mostly wasted for practical purposes.
Sir Bob did a .45-70 LT (Long Throat) and could handle 500-grainers at SAAMI .458 WinMag levels in his Ruger No. 1. Rechambering the Ruger No. 1 .45-70 Gov't. by adding the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat onto a .45-2.6" chamber = .45-70 Elko Magnum, CIP homologated, fully capable of beating the SAAMI .458 Lott, just like the .458 WM+ does. I called it the .45-100-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated before I knew it had already been invented as the .45-70 Elko Magnum. Here is a 22"-barreled, 7.25-pounder that can still fire factory .45-70 Gov't. ammo in a pinch, heh-heh-heh:
I received a box of the Hornady 250 grain SP from Midway a couple of days ago and picked up the last box of Hornady 325 grain FTX at the local Academy Sports today. I plan to test a number of these powders with these bullets. I also have a fair number of Berry’s plated 350 grain 0.458” SOCOM bullets IIRC which I use for practice loads in the 458 WM and will also try for the same purpose in the 45-70.
I’ll plan to use the COAL Hornady case gauge so I can measure throat with the different bullets. If the throat is short lengthening it should be fairly straightforward.
Last decision about the rifle is which scope to mount. Thinking about a Leupold 4x sitting on the bench currently. Should be just about right for the ranges involved and will add a bit of weight to the old #3, something it definitely can use.
I had planned to convert this #3 to a #1 as I have the pieces needed for that and an almost finished stock I’ve been working on for the 500 NE 3” #1. I just might swap it and not have to worry about the lever and the light weight of the carbine.
We’ll see how ambitious the project becomes.
Great info from the Knights and the Square Table King!!
CEB .458 300-gr ESP Raptor may be used with or without its plastic ballistic tip as a "soft" or turned backwards for use as an FN solid. Could be made to work in a Ruger No. 1 .45-70 Gov't. having no throat, just has to be seated deeply and give up some case capacity. Fun bullet in a .458 WinMag.
One set of SWFA rings is worth at least 4 sets of the Burris X-tac rings, probably way more than that, and the SWFA rings cost less than Burris. Many better features on the SWFA also. My starter sample:
Burris X-tac is like some old taxidermy that needs to go to the barn:
'Possum I clubbed with a stick, coyote bagged on the run at 200 yards with my .25-'06 Remington M700, both were professionally mounted by a VIP Taxidermist (of course nowadays I hunt coyote with a .458 WinMag). The 'coon is roadkill mounted by a rank amateur. Jackalope buck and doe came from Wall Drug in SD, on the way back to KY from AK.)
It was a cold & dreary day so I decided to go hang out in a friend's barn & do a little work on Ophelia while he worked on his sailboat. I cranked up some Van Morrison on the Bose SoundLink & started to try to figure some things out...
The first thing I did was drill some test holes in a piece of scrap pine & to find the right drill bit to countersink my Talley crossbolt heads:
In several online reviews I heard mixed stories about adding pillars to a Ruger M77 stock. Some people had a perfect fit while others complained that the pillars were too long & needed to be shortened. There must be some variance in stock sizes between specific models because a new recoil pad I ordered wasn't even close to a good fit. Both of my pillars were too long and I had to use a file to get them to the correct length. I was just dry fitting them & using a Sharpie to mark the area that was proud of the wood & needed to be removed:
I found some 4" (10cm) stainless bolts to strengthen the grip & used a bench grinder to remove as much of one of the heads as possible:
Pat used one of his really long bits to drill a pilot hole before switching to a larger bit that was still slightly smaller than the stainless bolt:
With a slightly smaller hole, the stainless threads were able to grip the wood enough to screw the bolt in from the base of the butt to behind the tang. The ground down Phillips head was countersunk into a slightly larger hole:
So now I have about half of the items that Sir Ron suggested I install back on page 182. Drilling the crossbolt holes will give me something to do later this week. So progress! I don't know if I'm doing everything right since I'm making this up as I go along but it's been fun getting it to all fit together tightly.
It was a cold & dreary day so I decided to go hang out in a friend's barn & do a little work on Ophelia while he worked on his sailboat. I cranked up some Van Morrison on the Bose SoundLink & started to try to figure some things out...
The first thing I did was drill some test holes in a piece of scrap pine & to find the right drill bit to countersink my Talley crossbolt heads:
In several online reviews I heard mixed stories about adding pillars to a Ruger M77 stock. Some people had a perfect fit while others complained that the pillars were too long & needed to be shortened. There must be some variance in stock sizes between specific models because a new recoil pad I ordered wasn't even close to a good fit. Both of my pillars were too long and I had to use a file to get them to the correct length. I was just dry fitting them & using a Sharpie to mark the area that was proud of the wood & needed to be removed:
I found some 4" (10cm) stainless bolts to strengthen the grip & used a bench grinder to remove as much of one of the heads as possible:
Pat used one of his really long bits to drill a pilot hole before switching to a larger bit that was still slightly smaller than the stainless bolt:
With a slightly smaller hole, the stainless threads were able to grip the wood enough to screw the bolt in from the base of the butt to behind the tang. The ground down Phillips head was countersunk into a slightly larger hole:
So now I have about half of the items that Sir Ron suggested I install back on page 182. Drilling the crossbolt holes will give me something to do later this week. So progress! I don't know if I'm doing everything right since I'm making this up as I go along but it's been fun getting it to all fit together tightly.
Inspirational of Sir Darryl. Enaa baasee'. I am getting out the wood working tools and attacking the stock in picture he posted above, of my .500 Mbogo, first ever. Will enlarge the barrel channel to fit a fatter barrel on a ".500 Jeffery Match" rifle, to be completed after 20 years of WIP.
The only thing I do different is make the long-axis grip screw hole big enough for the epoxy-coated allthread to slide in with a gush of epoxy overflowing. If you don't have a grip cap to cover the bottom of grip, flush finish of epoxy over the rod, or you can drill from the action side before the rear pillar goes in. I did the latter on the stock above, hiding the grip rod entirely.
Another thing maybe not discussed enough is to be sure there is tang relief behind the tang. I like to make that the final bedding touch after all else is done. Use two thicknesses of vinyl electrician tape around the side surfaces of the tang and set it in epoxy bedding covering the wood around the tang.
Well, this one is looking a little tight, will be re-done:
Hog out old epoxy, masking tape on stock exterior, two layers of vinyl electrical tape on tang plus release agent, sanded to finish after hardening. I now recall that a professional gunsmith did this stock bedding not me, though I have done many others since learning from him and others. I want a little more relief at tang.
Also note even a professional can get some chipping of laminated wood when counter-sinking the cross bolt heads:
At least this proves a laminate stock can survive +8000 ft-lb loads with bullets from 450- to 777-gr. That was with a secondary recoil lug on the barrel, however. The old .500 Mbogo has a skinny enough barrel to go in a new B&C stock. The secondary recoil lug on barrel is superfluous with a full-metal endoskeleton in the stock.
Thankfully I am not left handed. If I crack my Ruger MKII or Hawkeye stocks, there is a B&C for them too. If I were left handed, there is always a way to convert a righthand stock to a lefthand, however.
Another thing maybe not discussed enough is to be sure there is tang relief behind the tang. I like to make that the final bedding touch after all else is done. Use two thicknesses of vinyl electrician tape around the side surfaces of the tang and set it in epoxy bedding covering the wood around the tang.
In my previous thread about favorite 40+ caliber rifles that got the ball rolling on this particular project, JFEmentioned tang relief as part of a helpful punch list below that had some overlap with your suggestions in this thread. I've been making note of all the useful advice I've been getting (which was the point of asking all these questions in the first place) but it's still nice to see some actual photos of what other people have done whenever I'm in DIY mode.
Originally Posted by JFE (in another thread)
There are a number of things that can be done to strengthen the stock. Pillar bedding front and rear action screws (use the kit ex Brownells) Bed a threaded rod in the pistol grip Add another factory crossbolt behind the mag box. Use care in fitting this as there is not a lot of wood. Relieve the stock at the rear of the tang to avoid the tang becoming a wood splitter As RC mentioned, reinforcing the front of the mag box would be a good idea. Bear in mind that while laminated stocks are stronger in some areas they can chip easily, particularly near the notch for the bolt handle.
Lacking professional scraping tools, just took a couple of hours to use wood chisels and 80-grit sandpaper wrapped around wooden dowels to remove about two ounces of old epoxy and wood from the barrel channel of the CZ Phat American stock. No. 6 Light Target McGowen contour with straight taper to 0.820" muzzle diameter at 24" length required a little elbow grease. The .500 Jeffery Match heavyweight rifle is in the middle of the "workshop" photo below:
1:20" twist like CIP but with some extra throat instead of the CIP .500 Jeffery no throat. I might use this as a BPCR with greasers or paper-patched, saves me from ever wanting a 50-140-3-1/4" Sharps 1874.
There is no recoil lug on the barrel, but there will be soon. Not done yet.
With a heavy barrel and a heavy stock, the .500 Jeffery Match is not a sheep rifle. Field-ready, scoped and loaded, a .458 WinMag will be about 3 pounds lighter. That is the ultimate sheep rifle.
Just a few comments re: powders for the .458. I learned from my .45-70 days, including the Ruger No.1s, that almost anything that would work in a .223 Rem would do so in a .45-70 and a .458 Win. However, from considerable experience - and any limitations of powders being available in this area - I settled on three Hodgdon propellants that were usually available locally: H4198, H335 and H4895. I've never needed anything other than those three. I still have 'em, though H4198 is getting low. It (H4198) is far more useful in those two .458-calibers than realized by most .458 WM or .45-70 fans. And it is very temp resistant (IMR 4198 is NOT the same).
Comming up this Saturday (God willing); My blog is: Comparing two African greats, The .375 H&H and .458 Winchester Magnum. In the .458, I showcase one load; the 404gr SH for a moose hunt to 500 yds! It's based on my test results in the Ruger No.1H firing the former Barnes 400gr X-Bullet... thought some might be interested.
Certainly will be watching for that, Sir Bob. I get email notice when you make a blog entry. I print them out and put them in an Oxford file folder after I have read them. Always interesting, and good competition for my half-ton of recently acquired pulp.
In the Fall 2000, Number 4, RIFLE Magazine's HUNTING ANNUAL, Thomas McIntyre had a piece called "Borrowed Rifle Blues," pp 36-41, 105. His last book in 2023 was THUNDER WITHOUT RAIN A MEMOIR WITH DANGEROUS GAME--GOD'S CATTLE, THE AFRICAN BUFFALO. RIP Thomas McIntyre.
A highlight of the article above was the author's description of Australian PH Bob Penfold's loaner armory of eight rifles in .458 WinMag. These were used by Penfold and his guides, and any client pitching up in need of borrowing a buffalo rifle. Henceforth, both Sir McIntyre and Sir Penfold join the Square Table as Honorary Knights and/or Saints. Maybe Sir Woods has kept tabs on Bob Penfold's status. He may also be declared a Saint if gone to the Happy Hunting Ground.
Circa 1987 to 1988, Sir McIntyre had just sold a "post-64" M70 .458 WinMag, but found himself headed for a buffalo hunt with Sir Penfold. "No worries," he was assured of a proper loaner in the Northern Territory. Sir Penfold had eight identical .458 WinMags to grab from for PH and client. He designed both rifles and the handloaded ammo for all. ... "strong and reliable ... light to carry ... and fast handling."
Penfold's design: Mauser 98 action with bolt face, rails, ramp, magazine and follower fitted for .458 WinMag. Bolt knob enlarged and bolt handle lengthened by 3/4", swept down for scope clearance. Slim barrel cut back to 20" and Mag-na-ported. Chet Brown fiberglass stock painted flat black with "spray can" paint. Timney trigger set at 4 pounds. Side safety. Front sling swivel was sweated onto barrel. Scope mounts were Australian-made Lynx "bridge mounts." Scope was Leupold 1.5-5x, with several spares on hand to change out. Lynx mounts had not failed in 15 years, but "several" scopes had, on these eight rifles. Ammo: 510-gr Woodleigh softpoints and "just enough fast-burning powder" to provide 2000 fps from the 20" barrel. Penfold was "convinced that no buffalo or banteng was going to be able to tell the difference between a bullet traveling at that speed and one traveling at 2150 fps."
It all worked well for Sir McIntyre, on pages 38-39:
"Needless to say, when I actually got to use one of these creme de la creme borrowed rifles, the results were anticlimactic. After three or four days of hunting, looking over hundreds of buffalo a day, we finally spotted a very good bull slipping through the cover of paperbark and tea trees along a dry watercourse. We managed to circle downwind of him, and to get within probably 75 yards, where I then was able to get a rest on a tree trunk and hold the reticle of the Leupold scope on an opening in the cover. As the bull's shoulder passed through the opening, I thumbed off the safety and squeezed that Timney trigger. Just before the bullet hit the buffalo, it struck a twig I hadn't seen and started to upset. Still it went in right behind the shoulder, and the bull just rocked forward and crashed to the ground. I bolted a second round in an instant, but I never needed it."
Now a plug for Alaska Arms. Seems to be a great company. Nice business card in the box with the part delivered in a velvet pouch from Alaska to Kentucky. Front of card: Back of card:
Sadly, Bob Penfold has also passed. He had a hunting concession in Arnhem Land about 250km from Gove (now Nhulunbuy) in the Northern Territory. He sold the guiding business to Matt Graham who has since passed away suddenly at a very young age.
I recall seeing one or two of those 458’s when I was at Matt’s camp. They were in poor condition at that point (2013) as they were quite old and camp rifles tend to get no love whatsoever. Like ol’ Ugly they were built on Mark X actions but the barrels were very light. I think these rifles were something like 7-7.5lbs all up and were primarily designed for guides taking long walks in the tropical heat and humidity. They were designed to be carried a lot and shot infrequently.
A point not often mentioned about cross-bolts is that where no factory cross-bolts are fitted you might like to try to fit one of Recknagel’s square section cross-bolts at the front of the action. These need to be fitted very carefully. In flat bottom receivers (like 98’s) the square section is supposed to fit up against the recoil lug and action flat, providing more support than a round section cross-bolt. The old military 98’s had something similar.
Enaa baasee', Sir Joe. So it is Saint Sir Penfold. And he had a bunch of Ol'Ugly rifles knocking about the Australian bush maybe a decade before Sir Phil's hit the Alaskan bush. Early 1970s versus 1980s.
Saint Sir McIntyre described what he could see of the rifles and ammo plus whatever Saint Sir Penfold told him. Bedding and reinforcement of the Chet Brown fiberglass stocks was not mentioned. Maybe they had the military M98 or Recknagel steel embedded ? Something was done right well if they survived 4 decades for you to find them still in service in 2013. The Alaskan Ol'Ugly has served for 4 decades too. Krylon paint over wingwalk paint has worked for Sir Phil.
I apologize as I have not kept up on all 156 pages of this treasure trove! I have, however, just started playing with a new-to-me .458 WM. This is Colombian M98 that someone did a nice job of converting to .458 Win mag. It had a cheap plastic stock so I restocked it with a used McMillan that is pillar and glass bedded. With some very minor alteration to the feed ramp it now feeds everything up to 500 grain RN very well. It has a 26" barrel that will likely be cut back a fair bit and a ruger banded front sight installed. The scope is just for some initial testing and I am thinking different bases for QD rings and a 1.5-5x20....or maybe just irons.
Anyway, I loaded up some rounds with Accurate 2230 using Hornady data and their 500 RN FMJ. The book shows a max load of 78.3 grains at around 2200 FPS from a 24" barrel for the DGS and DGX bullets. I broke 2300 FPS with just 76 grains and a 26" barrel in 40 degree weather with the FMJs. With the .458 bore I wouldn't expect much gain/loss between a 24" and 26" barrel so was pretty surprised at how hot these loads were, especially given the cool temps I was shooting in. Even though bolt lift and extraction were fine, I am going to back off some.
Has anyone found extreme lot to lot variation with the Accurate powders?
Enaa baasee', Sir Joe. So it is Saint Sir Penfold. And he had a bunch of Ol'Ugly rifles knocking about the Australian bush maybe a decade before Sir Phil's hit the Alaskan bush. Early 1970s versus 1980s.
Saint Sir McIntyre described what he could see of the rifles and ammo plus whatever Saint Sir Penfold told him. Bedding and reinforcement of the Chet Brown fiberglass stocks was not mentioned. Maybe they had the military M98 or Recknagel steel embedded ? Something was done right well if they survived 4 decades for you to find them still in service in 2013. The Alaskan Ol'Ugly has served for 4 decades too. Krylon paint over wingwalk paint has worked for Sir Phil.
Lads, I dont get to the Campfire often enough...
Re the Penfold 458s. My recollection is hazy, but the original was called "Black Max" and was featured in a hunt where Col Allison and Bob Penfold took the prototype rifle along for a New England pig hunt and Bob Penfold blooded it on a medium sized pig. From what I think I can recall, they featured in the Outdoors magazine (long gone) probably circa very early 1980s. I was likely reading the article in Mr Gaughan's French class, hidden inside the French text book.
The details of these rifles elude me, but pretty sure what was mentioned previously is about correct.
Here is one that I grabbed after Matt Graham's camp was dismantled ... its Leupold 1.5-5x is due refurbishment.
A thing of beauty in its own ugly way, and if only it could speak of its adventures. Cheers... Con
When purchased (after Matt Graham passed away) I pulled it apart to clean ... under the stock line it was full of bull dust from years of travel on the utes. Pure 100% working rifles. Cheers... Con
Thanks for chiming in, Con. It always good to get some first hand info and pics of the subject matter. I’m sure RIP will be along soon with a few questions. The first thing that strikes me is that it’s an ex mil 98 and not a Mark X.
That rifle has some real character. If you saw it at a bar it would probably just look up from its drink slowly, look you square in the eye and say, "Yeah, I saw some stuff"...then slowly look back down at its drink.
Thanks for chiming in, Con. It always good to get some first hand info and pics of the subject matter. I’m sure RIP will be along soon with a few questions. The first thing that strikes me is that it’s an ex mil 98 and not a Mark X.
My recollection of the build specs was that they definitely (obviously) used M98 actions ... I suspect it was ex-mil or whatever could be sourced to do a build. I cant recall the first Black Max being named as a Mark X action, some may have been though.
Personally I think its novel that its magna-ported.
Big ol' enaa baasee' to Sir MedRiver and Sir Con for the latest contributions to the Square Table. Sir Names are now assigned by the Hand of the King unless said Sir wants to change it.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
I apologize as I have not kept up on all 156 pages of this treasure trove! I have, however, just started playing with a new-to-me .458 WM. This is Colombian M98 that someone did a nice job of converting to .458 Win mag. It had a cheap plastic stock so I restocked it with a used McMillan that is pillar and glass bedded. With some very minor alteration to the feed ramp it now feeds everything up to 500 grain RN very well. It has a 26" barrel that will likely be cut back a fair bit and a ruger banded front sight installed. The scope is just for some initial testing and I am thinking different bases for QD rings and a 1.5-5x20....or maybe just irons.
Anyway, I loaded up some rounds with Accurate 2230 using Hornady data and their 500 RN FMJ. The book shows a max load of 78.3 grains at around 2200 FPS from a 24" barrel for the DGS and DGX bullets. I broke 2300 FPS with just 76 grains and a 26" barrel in 40 degree weather with the FMJs. With the .458 bore I wouldn't expect much gain/loss between a 24" and 26" barrel so was pretty surprised at how hot these loads were, especially given the cool temps I was shooting in. Even though bolt lift and extraction were fine, I am going to back off some.
Has anyone found extreme lot to lot variation with the Accurate powders?
Sir MedRiver, I would not be surprised if you had a variant, short chamber, maybe even as short as a .458 Lott. You need to put an inverted, flat-based bullet with a long shank in a 2.500" case and see how long you can stick it. SAAMI slug jump is 0.6725" from a 2.500" case mouth with a 0.458" diameter of right cylinder slug. Also slug for groove diameter and check twist of the barrel. If all is SAAMI, you have a great barrel. Going from 24" to 26" will gain you only about 10 fps per inch, and lesser gains past 26". 20" to 24" is about 15 fps per inch of barrel length. Shortening below 20": 20 fps per inch and greater loss rate the shorter you go.
I have not seen or heard of much lot-to-lot variation in AA-2230 of 2016 or later vintage when it and brother AA-2460 were reformulated for better ThermoBallisticIndependence (TBI).
In SAAMI chambered .458 WinMag, verified by me,
500-gr TSX at 3.78" COL (longest possible) in a 24-7/8" CZ barrel for .458 WinMag: 2342 fps corrected to MV: 83.0 gr AA-2230, Hornady brass/F215
500-gr Trophy Bonded Sledghammer Solid at 3.550" COL in a 24" Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag: 2408 fps LabRadar MV: 83.0 gr AA-2460, W-W brass/F215
The TBSS was at 80*F, and same session the Hornady Factory 500-gr DGS load gave exactly 2140 fps MV by LabRadar, from same 24" Ruger No. 1.
I do not doubt your results a bit. If you use Norma brass you will be able to shorten the long COL loads by 0.100" of COL and have same net case capacity as the longer COL loads with W-W, Hornady, or R-P brass. Just a reminder.
Re the Penfold 458s. My recollection is hazy, but the original was called "Black Max" and was featured in a hunt where Col Allison and Bob Penfold took the prototype rifle along for a New England pig hunt and Bob Penfold blooded it on a medium sized pig. From what I think I can recall, they featured in the Outdoors magazine (long gone) probably circa very early 1980s. I was likely reading the article in Mr Gaughan's French class, hidden inside the French text book.
The details of these rifles elude me, but pretty sure what was mentioned previously is about correct.
Here is one that I grabbed after Matt Graham's camp was dismantled ... its Leupold 1.5-5x is due refurbishment.
A thing of beauty in its own ugly way, and if only it could speak of its adventures. Cheers... Con
Originally Posted by Con
When purchased (after Matt Graham passed away) I pulled it apart to clean ... under the stock line it was full of bull dust from years of travel on the utes. Pure 100% working rifles. Cheers... Con
Sir Con, Wonderful. Helps with the timeline too. Early '80s. Still could be Sir Phil Shoemaker's inspiration, or great minds think alike. Like Sir Joe, I noticed the thumbcut like on a milsurp. Not the first time someone has done that to a commercial M98, however. Sir Phil ?
So you got the version with deluxe camo paint job and you cleaned the buffalo dust from the stock recesses, did you notice any Recknagel or milsurp Mauser bedding steel ?
Q: So who needs more power than a 20"-barreled .458 WinMag ? A: Nobody except a stunt shooter (rhetorical answer).
Firstly, the rifle in it's working dress... this is its original scope.
Trigger is certainly a Timney...
I think I found some original bluing, underneath and hard up by the receiver.
Bedding as is ... no idea obviously if this is original or it was re-bedded. But its certainly held up. I had a Zastava placed in a Butler Creek, and the gunsmith that did the bedding was confident it would never split.
Weight in grams... not that funny ounce thing that makes kids smarter as they need to know fractions. This is personally where I think the all-rounder 458WinMag needs to weigh to enable it to comfortably use all loads.
Lastly, barrel length ... I'm calling it 21.25inches because there's something special about odd number length barrels.
Removing the scope mounts, no markings on the receiver or anywhere I can see to indicate its origins. One thing I love that I didnt photograph specifically but can be kind of seen in teh picture weighing the rifle, is the bolt handle bends nicely away from the stock, giving your hand ample room to avoid being struck under recoil, and awesome leverage to work the bolt in an authoritarian manner.
Sad that both Bob Penfold and Matt Graham have left us now...
In case readers are wondering why there’s no open sights - that’s because removing the scope mount exposes two fixed studs in the base that would interefere with the use of open sights. The mounts are adjustable for windage. They are also likely the toughest mounts available at the time, especially in a bridge mount.
Damn, it's all right here, any plainer would be a cast iron skillet in the face, Con, JFE and Melvin are our Brothers in OZ, the states have plenty of 458 WM hands, buffalo in Africa and OZ, 458 WM only, what a pair of hunts that would be!
Even though I started grade school in Mississippi, I eventually learned to do the 3 R's. Your weight of 3811 grams = 8 lbs 6.15 oz, scoped with Lynx bridge mounts and Leupold VX-III 1.5-5x20mm, well under 9 pounds with 4 rounds of ammo on board. Excellent.
Might be some all-thread steel hidden under and behind the action recoil lug, or maybe not. Chet Brown stocks must not need it. No secondary recoil lug on the barrel either, apparently. The Mauser spacers on the action screws could be glued in as pillars, or left as the original compression preventers ?
Are you showing a barrel that is 54cm from muzzle crown to front of action receiver = 21.25" ? If so I am guessing it would be closer to 56cm to breech face of barrel = 22.05". Saint Sir McIntyre was mistaken, oh well, he was only human at the time. Stick a rod down the barrel with action closed and cocked to get firing pin retracted. Mark the rod at muzzle and see if it is closer to 56 cm, pretty please.
I now rephrase my rhetorical question:
Q: Who needs more power than a 22"-barreled .458 WinMag ?
Damn, it's all right here, any plainer would be a cast iron skillet in the face, Con, JFE and Melvin are our Brothers in OZ, the states have plenty of 458 WM hands, buffalo in Africa and OZ, 458 WM only, what a pair of hunts that would be!
How far below the magazine box does the Alaska Arms extra round floor plate protrude? Sounds like it uses the original MK II follower and mag spring - is that correct?
How far below the magazine box does the Alaska Arms extra round floor plate protrude? Sounds like it uses the original MK II follower and mag spring - is that correct?
Sir Khulu:
Some say to add about 0.025" to the calculated width or depth of box to allow a plus tolerance. The Alaska Arms coffin plate does this and more.
This grainy old photo was an Easter egg found at the bottom of page nine of the book, it being punctuation to end the prologue to the 2nd ed.:
Vic Pedersen, Northern Territory Conservation Commission Game Ranger in program to reduce buffalo numbers, was also described as a shooter in the meat industry and gunsmith. He worked with Dave Linder who started Ranger work in 1965. Maybe Dave snapped the pic of Vic with his instamatic ? Maybe Vic did some gunsmithing for Saint Sir Penfold ?
Sir MedRiver, I would not be surprised if you had a variant, short chamber, maybe even as short as a .458 Lott. You need to put an inverted, flat-based bullet with a long shank in a 2.500" case and see how long you can stick it. SAAMI slug jump is 0.6725" from a 2.500" case mouth with a 0.458" diameter of right cylinder slug. Also slug for groove diameter and check twist of the barrel. If all is SAAMI, you have a great barrel.
I am coming up with just shy of a 1:18" Twist, .458" groove and an inverted flat base extends from a 2.495" case about .395".
Sir MedRiver, Good Work. You have a ".458 Winchester Magnum Special." You get higher velocity and pressure per grain of powder and accuracy does not suffer. I have a Mauser 98 (Geri) that has about same throat as yours, just a little more, at 0.473" of slug jump. It gives roughly 55 fps greater MV than a SAAMI-throated .458 of same length barrel. I take pleasure in knowing it has more throat than a .458 Lott. About twice as much. IIRC, JGS had a .458 WinMag reamer with about 0.400" length of parallel-sided freebore. That is about 0.1" longer than a SAAMI .458 Lott throat which is also a parallel-sided "modern throat" very different from the original wildcat .458 Lott like Jack built.
Tim Sundles has an 18"-barreled .458 WM custom rifle that produces 4 fps greater MV than his 22" factory M70 rifle, both with same Buffalo Bore 400-gr TSX load. The custom has a Marquart barrel ... and maybe a .458 WM Special reamer was used to cut the chamber ? I doubt that a mere difference of internal barrel finish (as Tim guesses) could make that much difference. Any difference with 0.458" versus 0.459" groove diameter is minimal regarding pressure and velocity. Twist rates of either 1:10" or 1:18" make no significant difference in velocity and pressure, compared to 1:14" standard.
Your note on magazine box geometry prompted me to measure the mag box Gene Simillion built and installed on my M-70 Classic when he built the 460 G&A. That cartridge is based on the 404 Jeffery case, the example you provided. The mag box is wider and completely enclosed on its sides, front and back; there are no windows.
Interestingly, though it fits flush with the belly of the M-70 factory wood stock, it fits 4 460 G&A cartridges. The stock recess for the box has been slightly enlarged laterally internally, though almost imperceptibly. As a test I also confirmed that the box accommodates 5 belted magnum cartridges. This magazine also uses a custom made follower which has a subtly formed shallow groove which causes the left sided cartridges to straighten into the middle of the feed ramp as they feed. Interesting idea which makes for extremely smooth and reliable feeding.
Seems there are several interesting ways to skin the increased mag capacity cat. I like the flush fit because it preserves the lines of the stock. However, that’s a purely aesthetic personal consideration.
Your note on magazine box geometry prompted me to measure the mag box Gene Simillion built and installed on my M-70 Classic when he built the 460 G&A. That cartridge is based on the 404 Jeffery case, the example you provided. The mag box is wider and completely enclosed on its sides, front and back; there are no windows.
Interestingly, though it fits flush with the belly of the M-70 factory wood stock, it fits 4 460 G&A cartridges. The stock recess for the box has been slightly enlarged laterally internally, though almost imperceptibly. As a test I also confirmed that the box accommodates 5 belted magnum cartridges. This magazine also uses a custom made follower which has a subtly formed shallow groove which causes the left sided cartridges to straighten into the middle of the feed ramp as they feed. Interesting idea which makes for extremely smooth and reliable feeding.
Seems there are several interesting ways to skin the increased mag capacity cat. I like the flush fit because it preserves the lines of the stock. However, that’s a purely aesthetic personal consideration.
For sure, the magazine box cat can be skinned more ways than I can shake a knife at that cat, to mix metaphors. The Ruger Hawkeye box width at back is only 0.925" which is too narrow according to Mauser Cosine Rule. Think of all the big bores done by various commercial makers. None other than Heym makes a cartridge specific box, even up to .505 Gibbs size, from what has been reported. One of the few perfect boxes I know of was the Pre'-64 M70 .300 H&H and .375 H&H. They held 4 down in .375 H&H while the M70 Classic from Connecticut held only 3 cartridges down in the box. There the Pre- had a wider box and same depth. etc.
Mayfair Engineering in the UK makes different size Mauser actions for the trade. They claim to make the magazine assemblies to suit specific cartridges, including internally contouring the boxes to fit the cartridge shoulder, where required. They’re an expensive action but look to be very well thought out and built.
WC264 - thanks for mentioning your rifle build. Would it be possible see pics of your mag box and follower, along with the box dimensions? Thanks.
Meanwhile, in imitation of some Australian .458 WinMags, I am getting close to the proper weight:
2000 AD vintage Leupold has taken a licking and is still ticking. Licked a cape buffalo in Botswana in 2001 on a Ruger M77 MKII RSM .416 Rigby, and licked a bull bison in Nebraska circa 2003 on a Win M70 Classic Stainless 404 Jeffery.
I stumbled across some Federal Ammunition reloading data for the 458 Winchester and Federal's 500 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer. I do mean stumbled, pretty easy to find up through.308 info, but finding the .416 & .458 load data was a challenge for me.
24" Test Barrel
Alliant Power Pro™ Varmint, OAL 3.275", Fed 215 Fed Brass
... we did a little bit on CFE 223 on this thread on 2/26/21 or then-abouts.
Same load and rifle specifics using Alliant Power Pro VARMINT:
Federal offers this SAAMI-compliant load data with VARMINT: Note the 500-gr TBSS at + 2200 fps and less than 3.340" and less than 60,000 PSI:
CFE 223 works great for cleaning your barrel. It requires greater recoil with heavier charges than can be done with favorites like AA-2230 and AA-2460 for same velocity, and may not get as high velocity as possible with those two AA powders. Use some CFE 223 to clean your rifle of TSX fouling ?
Everything is relative and it depends. Using 3.340" or lesser COL will allow you to get higher velocities with less powder.
Note the 90 grains of compressed ball powder with the .458 Lott at 3.580" COL to get over 2300 fps with the 500-gr TBSS. The same load could be used in the .458 WM+ at 3.575" COL. But those .458 Lott ballistics were beaten by Sir Jerry at 3.545" COL with only 83.0 grains of AA-2460 in his 24"-barreled .458 WM+.
QuickLOAD is very unreliable for the .458 WinMag. It makes no allowances for throat.
Best approximation with QuickLOAD for the .458 WIN is to pretend that the .458 WinMag has a case capacity of 108 grains of water instead of 95. 95 grains water is the default case capacity for the .458 WinMag in QuickLOAD.
Sir Bob, All bets are off on your powder charge for the new version of the 400-gr TBBC. Totally new bullet is hopefully closer to 400 grains than the old one that weighed 390.5 gr., specimen of one. New bullet is grooved and nickel-plated. New bet: Federal is using Alliant Power Pro Varmint in the new load. You need to pull one of the bullets and weigh the powder and bullet for us please. Safest "weigh" to do that is to weigh the loaded cartridge and subtract bullet weight and weight of primed case after the powder is dumped = weight of powder. Just in "case" any grains go astray in the pulling process. Or just be very careful to not lose any powder and weigh the powder directly. I am sure you will get good pics of the new bullet and the powder grains. For the new bullet, length of bullet (BOL) and the loaded ammo COL would be nice for posterity. And while you are at it, what brass length did they use at the factory, 2.490"? Finally, a chronograph reading when the risen creeks have gone down ?
Federal is still claiming 2250 fps MV for their 400-gr TBBC factory load. Component bullets of that species are not available in their 2024 ammo catalog that I found at SCI Nashville yesterday.
Sir Larry, With the line for autographs being never-ending, did not have time to get around to bashing, not even bashing of the .458 Lott. Jim did hunt Russian bears with a .458 Winchester Magnum.
Federal ammo, old versus new packaging, more than the boxes have changed:
BTW, the FN Barnes solids are back in some form as components or loaded ammo of some kind, according to the run-by of the Barnes Bullets exhibit at SCI 2024. The RN solids still linger, for whatever reasons.
A loaded Federal factory 400-gr TBBC cartridge sitting on manual of the AA-2230 powder company:
If they are truly keeping velocity down to 2250 fps from a 24" barrel, Varmint 73.3 grains sounds about right. If it were the 1200-R of same appearance (flattened grains of ball powder), I SWAG it would be going much faster.
The partial range of powders eminently useful in the .458 WinMag:
Federal had to trim the brass short by a lot to make the COL same as with old TBBC: 3.315" 2.415" new BrassOL, 2.490" old. That suggests the ogive of the new bullet is longer.
Old nose projection = 3.315" - 2.490" = 0.825" Old seating depth = 1.266" - 0.825" = 0.441"
New nose projection = 3.315" - 2.415" = 0.900" New seating depth = 1.281" - 0.900 = 0.381"
If they load that bullet into a .458 Lott they will have to trim the brass to no more than 2.700" to make 3.600" COL.
Federal is still listing the BC of the new TBBC 400-grainer as same as the old "390-gr" TBBC: 0.353 New form factor + heavier weight + drag from grooves = Same BC ? Quite the coincidence.
I have decided to embrace the suck of my one and only .458 Lott. Ol'Fugly is changing her name back to Miss Piggy Warthog. She is the MKX Mauser .458 WinMag that was opened up in length and re-chambered to .458 Lott Like Jack Built. I blame my youthful ignorance for that.
Any SAAMI .458 Lott owners can cure their affliction by throating to match the original .458 Lott wildcat.
Load like a .458 WM+ and just trim the .458 Lott brass to fit the mag box length if ogive length requires it.
LOL, funny stuff Sir Ron, you know, one of my PH's in Africa had a factory FN Browning Safari 458 WM chambered for 450 lott, action opened up too, the whole nine yards, saving grace is it already had the 458 WM throat of course, i left him a dozen rounds of my 458 WM+ loads with 404 Hammer at 2518 fps at 3.575 COL, he used one of those on that 3300 lb bull Giraffe in the video he sent, good stuff Sir.
Sir Ron, I've sent two more pics: 1) Of plastic package containing 19 cartridges of the 400gr TBBC (the 1 missing was dissected). 2) Of the reassembled 400gr TBBC cartridge. Bob www.bigbores.ca
LOL, funny stuff Sir Ron, you know, one of my PH's in Africa had a factory FN Browning Safari 458 WM chambered for 450 lott, action opened up too, the whole nine yards, saving grace is it already had the 458 WM throat of course, i left him a dozen rounds of my 458 WM+ loads with 404 Hammer at 2518 fps at 3.575 COL, he used one of those on that 3300 lb bull Giraffe in the video he sent, good stuff Sir.
Enaa baasee' to Sir Jerry too, for that reminder. Hero Sir Jerry is now joined by Hero Sir Jim. Jim Shockey may not be as expert a shot as Sir Jerry, but he does pretty good. And he has bagged 376 of the +400 huntable species according to SCI "dead reckoning." That is IIRC. I was not taking notes at the seminar. According to Jim Shockey no other hunter in the world has a higher species total than his.
That is some serious conservation efforts, extending to Somaliland, to establish North American game conservation methods and their first-ever National Park, with the help of anonymous wealthy donors, etc., etc. ...
Since Jim Shockey, like Sir Jerry, has sallied forth with the .458 Winchester Magnum on his globe-trotting hunting trips, he is officially getting a seat at the Square Table as "Sir Jim."
Original grey parkerized metal finish from 1993 has been touched up with Krylon spray paint. Brown Precision bare fiberglass was covered with epoxy and roughed up in grip panels more so than everywhere else, then spray-painted, more than once ! She was rechambered to .458 Lott in 1993, the year of Jack Lott's death by suicide. Hopefully he did not do it due to hearing about Ms. Piggy. Ms. Piggy waited until 2005 to have action/magazine lengthened and a secondary recoil lug added to barrel. Recknagel safety and Shoemaker torch rail were last "improvements." The barreled action came from Boondock Sporting Goods in Eagle River, AK, where Kelly Olson was the first smith. Rusty McGee started in on her in 2005, at Falls of Rough, KY. He has always been good at humoring my folly. My best facilitator for over 20 years now.
I have decided to embrace the suck of my one and only .458 Lott. Ol'Fugly is changing her name back to Miss Piggy Warthog. She is the MKX Mauser .458 WinMag that was opened up in length and re-chambered to .458 Lott Like Jack Built. I blame my youthful ignorance for that.
Any SAAMI .458 Lott owners can cure their affliction by throating to match the original .458 Lott wildcat.
Load like a .458 WM+ and just trim the .458 Lott brass to fit the mag box length if ogive length requires it.
Regarding the Lott: I skimmed through an article titled .458 Lott in Rifle, May-June 1991 by G. Sitton. Per the article, with collaboration of David Miller & Curt Crum. Sitton used a a Ruger #1 458 Winchester that David Miller re-chambered to 458 Lott. Of the powders of the time, that they used, Sitton stated that IMR 4320 was the only powder that gave him a comfortable 2,300 fps with a 500 grain bullet. He states that Jack Lott and David Miller, both arrived at 84 grains of IMR 4320 being the answer for 500 grains at 2300 fps. He also states, that David Miller "had to give some of his rifles as much as .600 inch of freebore to cross the line without pressure frights."
I don't have the free bore / throat dimensions of the 458 Winchester re-chambered to 458 Lott committed to memory. I would have guessed of the top of my head, there would have been more the .600" from end of case to rifling on a re-chamber. ??
Sir Larry, Enaa baasee' for that reference. I will look for it.
About the throat lengthening: Were they using the "modern" throat of parallel-sided free-bore of 0.001" greater diameter than bullet diameter, like what is used on the SAAMI .458 Lott ?
Since the SAAMI .458 WinMag has a leade-only throat of wide base and shallow angle and zero parallel-sided free-bore, one must specify throat length by either length from maximum brass length to first bullet contact in lands or when fully engraved at bore diameter. That would be the free travel of a "right cylinder slug" (of .4580" diameter) from a distance of 2.5000" from breech face to a) first contact with lands at .4580" diameter or b) to where the lands have tapered down to 0.4500" bore diameter.
Slug travel to start of engraving (a) = 0.6725" (SAAMI minimum) Slug travel to full engraving (b) = 1.1500" (SAAMI minimum)
If brass grows to 2.800" long in the same .458 Winchester Magnum with same throat as on the 2.500" chamber, just subtract 0.3000" from (a) and (b) above:
(a*) = 0.3725"
(b*) = 0.8500"
So it is apples to oranges in free-bore comparisons of parallel-sided versus leade-only throats. But 0.6000" length of parallel-sided freebore of 0.4590" diameter ought to set a SAAMI .458 Lott free, good to know. That would be an additional 0.4000" of parallel-sided throat added to the 0.2000" length on the SAAMI .458 Lott.
Thank you Sir Ron. Technical aspects of the re-chamber dimensions are lacking in the article. There are some loads listed and a bit of the typical chatter on Lott recoil.
I have previously thought that a total of .458 to .460" of the existing parallel sided .4590" diameter free bore would put the Lott in a good spot. Thought .458" length was a cool number. But, then thought the .460" to ensure the proposed .458" length.
Sir Larry, A parallel-sided throat of about caliber length and only 0.0006" to one thou bigger in diameter than bullet caliber would be about like the .375 Wby Magnum and 6.5 Creedmoor. No flies on that ! That is way more generous throat than you find on a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Back to the Gary Sitton article, found it in my three-ring binder of .458 articles. In 1990 to 1991 when the article was written (published for the May-June 1991 issue, RIFLE 135) the .458 Lott was a wildcat still, with Art Alphin lobbying SAAMI to homologate it.
Sitton developed his own load data in a Ruger No. 1, factory .458 Winchester Magnum, re-chambered by David Miller who "simply pulled the barrel, ran the Lott reamers into the .458 Winchester chamber, replaced the barrel, and I went shooting."
Note that he said "reamers" plural. A rougher and a finisher ? A case body reamer and a separate throating reamer, or what ? A non-belt-cutting, throat-merging, single reamer is what Jack Lott used to do the same conversion. Very imprecise of Gary to not define his rifle's throating more specifically, or maybe even realize that he might have a residual .458 WinMag throat in his rifle, like the original Jack Lott wildcat ? Lott of kissing up to good buddy Jack Lott was done nevertheless.
Note also that Sitton said his chamber allowed brass to stretch to 2.820", not like the SAAMI .458 Lott chamber that has 2.810" respective measure. More like the SAAMI .458 WinMag that allows 2.520" stretch-to of the 2.500" brass.
Looking at the original drawing Jack did for his wildcat reamer, it allowed 2.650" ahead of the non-cutting belt stop. Add 0.220" for the height/length from breech face to top of belt and total chamber length would be 2.650" + 0.220" = 2.870" HOLY COW ! That is what the .450 Watts Magnum requires, if allowing 2.850" max brass to stretch to 2.870". So Jack used a .450 Watts chamber and changed brass length to 2.800" maximum, because that was easiest for fire-forming .375 H&H brass which shortened on fire-forming. Trimmed up nicely to 2.790" trim-to and 2.800" maximum being a nice round number for squaring up the case mouths.
At the time the article was written, IMR-4320 had already been discontinued, the only powder Sitton could find to get his 500-grainer over 2300 fps.
Now we have so many better options and no need to re-chamber to .458 Lott. The .458 WM+ loads in a factory Ruger No.1 SAAMI .458 WinMag will beat a SAAMI .458 Lott like a kid with a wooden spoon and pots and pans on New Year's Eve.
So, the ".458 Lott Like Jack Built" was actually a .450 Watts Magnum superimposed in a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber with no barrel setback, and brass shortened to 2.800" maximum instead of the more difficult to make 2.850". Ms. Piggy is blushing about that one.
Jack Lott just became more understandable regarding his suicide. 1. He used a pre-existing .450 Watts Magnum reamer 2. in a pre-existing SAAMI .458 WM rifle, 3. trimmed the brass 0.050" shorter, and voila, named the "new" cartridge for himself. Then he developed the backstory. 4. Did not tell that his first shot at a cape buffalo in 1959, with his new .458 WM M70 African, was a gut shot with the 510-gr RNSP. 5. Did not tell that his second shot with the 500-gr FMJ "Solid" from WRAC deformed and went squirrely because of the excessive muzzle velocity generated by the SAAMI .458 WM. 6. Exaggerated the extent of his injuries from the sick buffalo for sympathy and as raison d'etre for more velocity with crummy bullets that were not able to withstand the warp speed of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Sextuple Stolen Valor. Victims of it were James Watts, the .458 Winchester Magnum, and all of us. Oh the shame of it all.
Since I posted my last update on the conversion of Ophelia to a 458 WM a couple of weeks ago, I snuck in a final weekend of deer hunting in Mississippi to see if I could put one more deer in the freezer. I had my Ruger No. 1A in 9.3x74r with me but unfortunately the only deer I saw were a bit too young so I decided to let them grow for another year.
Earlier this week I did a goose hunt in NE Arkansas but unlike last year, we had limited success. I still had a lot of fun sitting on an inverted 5-gallon bucket in a puddle of icy water for 12 hours.
While waiting for the Superbowl to start today, I worked on getting the crossbolts installed. Having never done this before, I was proceeding cautiously. I decided to get the rifle reinforced in its original configuration. Once I achieved that, then I was going to get the barrel replaced & fit it to the stock as the next step.
I used masking tape wrapped around the stock to align drilled guide holes & trace hardware sizes to gauge the placement of internal bracing. For a rookie effort, I was pleased with the results. The tolerances were tight & the rifle reassembled & functioned well. But the real test will come when I start firing some more powerful cartridges.
Sir Darryl, Looks impeccable from here ! Strong work. Same on the waterfowl hunting. I learned to fill my Red Ball chest waders in Truman Reservoir, MO, thanks to some kindly USAF Master Seargents who tried to teach me. I wax nostalgic ...
From 1982 when men were men and rifles were rifles.
I'm sure that the photo of the left side of that rifle was probably taken because it was a good fit for the composition of his book cover...
...but for personal reasons, I like the right side of that rifle better. Mainly because I have an affinity for nice-looking bolt handles & that one definitely qualifies.
In the recent past, I've been on a scavenger hunt for a LH bolt action rifle in a larger caliber which is what ultimately led me to this thread. I didn't really have a pressing need for one, I just thought it would be a fun project to try to build a 458 WM. So I've been looking at a lot of rifles that would be suitable for hunting in Africa including those where the bolt is on the "wrong" side. While perusing, I saw this David Miller M70 in 375 H&H below at auction & thought that was some particularly nice engraving. He does good work.
Noticed the gold inscription No1 on the left side of the action. Wonder if there was a N02? A .375 perhaps?
There were five rifles total in the series. They were sold as one-of-a-kind customs at the SCI (Safari Club International) conventions from 1982~1986:
David Miller of the David Miller Co. in Tucson, Arizona came up with the idea of commissioning other master gunmakers to create five one-of-a-kind rifles, each to commemorate a separate dangerous African big game animal.
Each rifle would feature the finest engraving, gold relief and gold line work based on original oil paintings by well-known artists who supported SCI.
Each would be fitted in a one-of-a-kind exotic wood and leather case, complete with appropriate accouterments, and each gunmaker would sign a certificate of authenticity guaranteeing the purchaser that the rifle would never be duplicated.
Since David Miller Co. was instrumental in creating the project, they would build the first and last rifle. The David Miller cased rifle set the standard for the other three gunmakers.
The first rifle in the series, called “The Elephant Rifle,” was based on a square-bridge Mauser action and chambered in .458 Winchester Magnum. It sold at the 1982 SCI Convention for $41,000. That was the highest price ever paid for a modern bolt-action rifle at the time.
The first rifle is the one pictured in the previous post above. Information on the other four rifles in the series is below:
Rifle Number Two, called “The Rhino Rifle,” was built by Champlin Firearms, Inc. of Enid, Oklahoma. The receiver was built entirely by Champlin and the octagon barrel was chambered for .375 H&H. That rifle brought $43,500 at the 1983 SCI Convention.
Rifle Number Three, called “The Buffalo Rifle,” was built by the Friedrich Wilhelm Heym Company of Germany. It was a side-by-side double rifle based on a Heym Model 88BSS action. That rifle brought $65,000 at the 1984 SCI Convention.
Rifle Number Four, called “The Lion Rifle,” was built by Paul Jaeger, Inc., of Jenkintown, Pennsylvania. It was built on a pre-1964 Winchester Model 70 action and was chambered for the .375 H&H cartridge. That rifle brought $140,000 at the 1985 SCI Convention.
Rifle Number Five, called “The Leopard Rifle,” was made by The David Miller Co. of Tucson, Arizona. It was based on a redesigned Model 70 action that Miller helped design with U.S. Repeating Arms Co. – a redesign that now is known as the Winchester Model 70 Classic action. It was chambered in .338 Winchester Magnum. That rifle brought $201,000 at the 1986 SCI Convention.
So the series had our beloved 458 Win Mag, three 375 H&H rifles and a 338 Win Mag. If I was going to do a similar collection of rifles for myself, I would have probably picked a more varied assortment like 7x57, 300 H&H, 9.3x62, 375 H&H, 404 Jeffery, 458 Win Mag, etc. similar to the Boddington series of Ruger No. 1 rifles.
So, the Heym double rifle (buffalo) and the Champlin pushfeed (rhino) were both chambered in .375 H&H ? Thank goodness the Paul Jaeger (lion) was a Pre-'64 M70 .375 H&H. Way too much .375 H&H going on there for sure ! David Miller's M98 (elephant) .458 WM and M70 (leopard) .338 WM, #1 for 1982 and #5 for 1986, are a complete battery, bookends for the light reading in between them, though I certainly would not kick the Pre-'64 M70 .375 H&H out of her bed for eating crackers.
Sounds like SCI rifle #5 might have been the prototype for the Connecticut Classic M70 ?
Then the Winchester Custom Shop got the big head and did their own Big Five series with a greater variety of chamberings:
If I could have 3 of the 5, it would be the top three: They are all practical and spaced well. The .470 is a talk-about rifle that has little support and could do nothing that the .458 couldn't do. And the .416 is between the .375 and .458 in never never land that's inferior to the .458. Anything less than what the .458 needs doing can be amply handled by the .375 of .338. YMMV.
If I could have 3 of the 5, it would be the top three: They are all practical and spaced well. The .470 is a talk-about rifle that has little support and could do nothing that the .458 couldn't do. And the .416 is between the .375 and .458 in never never land that's inferior to the .458. Anything less than what the .458 needs doing can be amply handled by the .375 of .338. YMMV.
Since the last few posts have discussed African series collections, in my previous post I had mentioned the 2008 Boddington Africa Adventure Series of Ruger No. 1's as an example of a more diverse collection of calibers: Leopard - 7x57 Kudu - 300 H&H Lion - 375 Ruger Buffalo - 450/400 Elephant - 450 Nitro Express 3 1/4"
But as to be expected, everyone would probably want to tweak that caliber selection to reflect their personal preferences. Obviously, if I could only switch one, I would change the Elephant to 458 Win Mag. I imagine that most followers of this particular thread would agree that this would improve the collection. Ruger's unflinching support for their 375 Ruger as a preferred replacement for the 375 H&H makes their selection for the Lion rifle understandable. I wouldn't be surprised if Ruger never makes another 375 H&H again as it might be seen as an admission that the 375 Ruger is somehow wanting. It would negate a lot of marketing to persuade hunters otherwise if they ever chose the classic over their own creation. Maybe they selected the 300 H&H for the Kudu as a way to appease anyone who was disappointed the 375 wasn't an H&H.
I'm assuming variety wasn't as much of a concern for the SCI collection since there was no expectation that a single person would buy all five rifles. Looking at it that way, having the highly-popular 375 H&H as the most common repeated cartridge makes a bit more sense.
Everybody's different but if I had been in charge of a series, it probably would have looked something like this. The fourth slot would be the tough choice that I might have to puzzle over for a while. Of course my collection would be available in both RH & LH models : 7x57 9.3x62 375 H&H 450/400 or 404 Jeffery or 416 Ruger 458 Win Mag
This is reflective of my biases and somewhat resembles what I already have in my small gun safe: Ruger No. 1 RSI - 275 Rigby Ruger No. 1A - 9.3x74r Winchester Model 70 Safari Express - 375 H&H Winchester 1885 Traditional Hunter - 405 Winchester Ruger M77 - 458 Win Mag
Everyone might not like my choices but hey, Vive la différence! I enjoy shooting them. As it was pointed out in the preceeding posts, taking the 458 WM from the top end & combining it with a single rifle from the lower end gives you two-rifle battery that covers a lot of situations often making the middle options somewhat superfluous.
As an observation and point of interest: EPPS sold four M70s overnight. All in very good to excellent condition. I can't give the exact designations but all were in nice wood: a .458 Win as excellent, two .375s, and a .416 Rem. They also sold a NIB M70 .338 Win Mag "special" for +$2300. The others went from $1700 to about $2000.
I suspect the four were from an estate sale, and obviously they went to a collector or another business. It's apparent they are in high demand.
Edit: I also suspect that whoever bought them didn't pay those full amounts since it's apparent they all went to the same buyer.
If I could have 3 of the 5, it would be the top three: They are all practical and spaced well. The .470 is a talk-about rifle that has little support and could do nothing that the .458 couldn't do. And the .416 is between the .375 and .458 in never never land that's inferior to the .458. Anything less than what the .458 needs doing can be amply handled by the .375 of .338. YMMV.
Sir Bob, Get that .375 H&H slick so you can work the longer bolt throw fast as you work your 9.3x62mm.
Sir Ron, thanks for the encouragement. Actually, I am working on that. The challenges are several: It's a LH bolt-action which should be normal since I shoot from that side, but I've used RH bolts most of my life and I only tried to switch by trading three in RH for two in LH. They were Browning A-Bolts SS with 26" barrels in .375 H&H and .300 Win Mag. The .300 worked out great but, as I've written on several occasions, the .375 had a serious flaw - the bore was off-center. It went back to the dealer for a copy in .338 Win Mag that became my .340 Wby, which I kept for ten years and put 1000 handloads through it. The .300 had previously been sold. Their actions were very smooth and bolt lift was only 60*.
The .375 H&H M70 Zastava had a rather rough LH action with a 90* bolt lift. But I'm getting used to it and rather like it now - but it's still getting worked over. No hang-ups or resistance in chambering. And extraction is excellent. I do believe the slopping cartridge has merit in those tasks.
Edit: It will go as my back up to the .458 in the Spring Bear hunt.
Since the last few posts have discussed African series collections, in my previous post I had mentioned the 2008 Boddington Africa Adventure Series of Ruger No. 1's as an example of a more diverse collection of calibers: Leopard - 7x57 Kudu - 300 H&H Lion - 375 Ruger Buffalo - 450/400 Elephant - 450 Nitro Express 3 1/4"
But as to be expected, everyone would probably want to tweak that caliber selection to reflect their personal preferences ...
Sir Darryl, Enaa baasee' again. Good to know that chamberings list of the Boddington No. 1 series. I have a baker's dozen of Ruger No.1 rifles, but nary a Boddington amongst them, from 6.5 Creedmouse to .500 A-Square. At least I was able to snag the standard production version of 450/400 NE 3" and I was able to have a .458 Lott re-chambered to .450 NE 3-1/4", cleaned it right up, even though Daisy the .458 WinMag puts them all to shame.
The Ruger No.1 extractor/ejector handles all case types with aplomb. Simply mahvelous rifle.
Funny story about the Boddington series for Ruger No. 1:
Early on in the chamberings expansion of the Ruger No. 1 post 2000 A.D., Ross Seyfried lobbied for Ruger to do the 450/400 NE 3-1/4" instead of the true origin cartridge, the 3" version done by Jeffery in 1897 as the .400 S. Jeffery, before the Nitro Express nomenclature even existed. Craig wanted the 450/400 NE 3" instead, and Ruger went with that, and by golly a whole series named for Craig Boddington !
Ross got his misguided feelings hurt by the snub from Ruger. The 450/400 NE 3-1/4" was just a me-too that came after the 450/400 NE 3", and it was a problematic cartridge compared to the original 3" version, that was made with the thicker-headed, shorter brass.
Ross Seyfried tried to deny the 450/400 NE 3" just like he denied the .458 WinMag. Laugh or cry ?
In the search box I put in "1956-04" and found the April 1956 issue of AMERICAN RIFLEMAN and that is the earliest mention I have found, so far, of the ".458 Winchester." Will look some more.
The Major General Julian S. Hatcher, USA (Retired) article from August 1956 is next, at top of page 191, placed there as a locator aid for this never-ending thread.
Page 24 of the August 1956 AR, split into 3 sections and pieced back together for enlarging within the size limits of the 24hrcampfire photo gallery and working with the resolution limits of the source web site:
(My comment from the peanut gallery: Tail slap on a round-nose solid helps keep it going in a straight line. Solid oak thus favors a RN solid in a way that aqueous media and live soft tissue do not.)
When Winchester released the .458 Winchester Magnum in 1956 , factory loaded ammunition had an advertised velocity of 2130 FPS (a chronograph test in an HP Laboratory in 1961 documents the actual velocity as being 2087 FPS, out of the 25 inch barrel of a pre '64 Winchester Model 70) . Loads were a 510 gr soft nose and 500 gr steel jacketed round nose FMJ . When Remington started manufacturing .458 Winchester Magnum factory loaded ammunition in 1961 , advertised velocity was also 2130 fps . Offerings were a 510 gr soft nose and a 500 gr steel jacketed round nose FMJ (with a thinner steel jacket than those offered by Winchester) .
Now , when fresh ammunition was used , These velocities were indeed accomplished (or at least, close enough to get the desired effect) . The problems arose with ammunition, which was a little old ( Like a year or two ) . The Compressed olin powders led to clumps . This resulted in erratic velocities ( Often lower than 1900 FPS ) . Bullets would also slowly get pushed out of cartridge cases , as well . This caused feeding problems in short actioned rifles ( FN Browning , Interarms Whitworth Express , etc ) .
In '73 , Winchester and Remington BOTH lowered the advertised velocity to 2120 FPS , in an attempt to increase shelf life . However , the problems were still there .
In '78 , Winchester and Remington Both lowered the advertised velocity to 2040 FPS , in another attempt to increase shelf life . Shelf life was improved , but now the Winchester and Remington factory ammunition was inadequate for frontal brain shots on big bull elephants ( and Matriarch cow elephants ) , and frontal heart shots on Cape Buffalo . Also was inadequate for Rhino and Hippo on land .
The Elephant cullers working for the game departments in the National Parks ( Like Clem Coetzee and Mike LaGrange ) in Zimbabwe ( Then , Rhodesia ) and the cullers working for Tseste Fly control and Cape Buffalo eradication culls found this out the hard way ( From the 1970s to the 1990s ) .
Art Alphin ( Owner of A Square ) decided to help the game departments , by providing them with specially loaded .458 Winchester Magnum ammunition . These were Remington Peters cartridge cases , loaded with 500 gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids . They were loaded to early Winchester's original advertised velocities of 2130 FPS .
These were performing satisfactorily , but the original problems found in the pre '78 Winchester and Remington ammunition began to resurface ( Short shelf life ) .
In '87 A Square ditched the 500 gr Hornady round nosed steel jacketed FMJ solids , and began to load their ammunition with 465 gr monolithic solids . This accomplished a velocity of 2200 FPS . But again , if the ammunition sat around for a couple of years in a shelf or a closet , then velocities became erratic and the bullets started slowly getting pushed out of cases . A Square monolithics also caused excessive strain on rifle barrels ( Rifle barrels were getting shot out , only after less than 500 firings ) .
In 1992 , Federal started offering their Trophy Bonded Bear Claw and Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer Solids in .458 Winchester Magnum . These used a 500 gr bonded soft nose or a 500 gr bonded steel jacketed round nosed FMJ solid . However , these loads accomplished little above 2000 FPS , and frequently below 1950 FPS . Also , when Jack Carter stopped being involved with Trophy Bonded Bullets , the bullet construction notoriously deteriorated .
After 1995 , Hornady started offered factory loaded ammunition for the .458 Winchester Magnum . This was called their " Heavy Magnum " line and were loaded with round nosed steel jacketed FMJ 500 he solids and 510 gr soft nose . Advertised velocity was 2230 FPS . How ever , shelf life was only 6 months . This high pressure ammo was also causing extraction problems on bolt action rifles in humid climates ( Like Zambezi Valley ) .
In 1996 , Remington stopped offering their 500 gr FMJ loading , altogether . The discontinued the offering , and only offered a 450 gr Swift A Frame loading , for a few more years . Then , they discontinued their .458 Winchester Magnum ammo line , altogether .
Finally around 2006 , Hornady fixed the problem by releasing their DGS and DGX line . These were a 500 gr Flat Nose bonded steel jacketed FMJ solid and a 500 gr soft nose bonded bullet . Advertised velocity is 2140 FPS . The shelf life problems have ( largely ) been taken care of . Because Hornady uses a special fine grain cool burning powder . However , you occasionally still get reports of fluctuations in velocity . Hornady DGS solids also have a small propensity to distort on Frontal brain shots or shoulder shots on big bull elephants and shoulder shots on Cape Buffalo .
The best solution nowadays is to hand load and ditch the 500 gr bullet , and use a 480 gr bullet ( As sold by Hornady and formerly Woodleigh ) . These improve case capacity enough to solve the shelf life problems , permanently .
In 2009 , Winchester listed two different loads for their .458 Winchester Magnum factory loaded ammo : - A 500 gr Nosler Partition Soft nose , which was advertised as only accomplishing 2010 FPS - A 500 gr Nosler monolithic solid , which was only advertised as accomplishing 2010 FPS .
Needless to say , neither offering was a success. In 2010 , Winchester dropped their .458 Winchester Magnum ammo line , altogether .
Avoid monolithic solids in the .458 Winchester Magnum. Monolithic solids need to be longer than a conventional FMJ solid in the same weight ( In layman's terms : A 500Gr monolithic solid will need to be longer , than a 500Gr FMJ ) . Thus , increased powder space gets compromised . In a caliber like the .458 Winchester Magnum ( Which is already well known for case capacity issues ) , this becomes a huge problem . If you gotta use monolithic solids in the .458 Winchester Magnum, then stick to 450 - 465Gr monolithic solids . Nothing heavier .
My reply nearly 2 years later is Square Table fundamentals:
Hunter-Habib, Nice write up, but you forgot to mention the original H. P. White Laboratory tests in 1955. Julian S. Hatcher, Major General U.S. Army, Retired was Technical Editor for the NRA's AMERICAN RIFLEMAN then. WRAC sent him "the pilot model" .458 Winchester Magnum and ballistics reports: "... no shortcomings in ballistics were noted." This was a recollection recorded in HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK.
He recalled that he got the package from WRAC on November 8, 1955, rifle and ammo and lab data.
His first article on the .458 WinMag in the NRA pub was entitled "For the Biggest Game" and subtitled "A report on the .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge and rifle," in the August 1956 issue of AR.
The .458 WM exceeded all advertising claims regarding ballistics: 25" barrel 76 degrees F, 59% RH Bullet: 500-gr WRA FMJ RN COL: 3.340" Winchester cases and Winchester 120 primers Propellant: 71.0 grains of HiVel #2, NOT COMPRESSED Velocity average for 10 shots: 2160 fps, intstrumental velocity 20 feet from muzzle Pressure average for 10 shots: 50,410 PSI
Assuming G1 BC was 0.295, corrected to MV = 2174 fps KE at MV = 5247 ft-lbs
Any of the terrible stuff that happened in the decades after that can be blamed on slobs of one sort or another, mostly at the ammo factories, but end-user abusers as well.
On March 9, 2022 test-fire and dissection of 1957 vintage ammo from WRAC was done by me. Date code on end flap of the red and yellow Winchester SUPER SPEED box was 91MM8, indicating Nov. 8, 1957 ammo lot date. Enaa baasee' to Sir Tony for graciously supplying the ammo. Advertised MV was 2125 fps for the WRAC 500-grain FMJ RN This .458 WinMag factory load was 64 years and 4 months old when fired.
25" Shilen barrel 51 degrees F Bullet: 500-gr WRA FMJ RN COL: 3.331" (brass length = 2.494") Winchester case, red sealant around primer Propellant: 67.0 grains of extruded, small grain tubular, charcoal-grey-black color 5-yard chrono for 5 shots: 2072, 2072, 2061, 2065, 2059 Mean = 2066 fps If G1 BC = 0.295: MV = 2080 fps
Ammo was stored in homes with central HVAC climate control FOR OVER 64 YEARS. If that had been HiVel #2 powder, 4 more grains of it might have been nice. Anyway, not bad stuff, factory loaded before the Democrat voters took over the factory.
Nowadays powders and bullets are so advanced as to allow handloaders near endless options.
This is undeniable: Load the .458 WinMag to same COL and higher pressure (MAP) as the .458 Lott is allowed by SAAMI, and the .458 WinMag will give higher velocity or lower pressure or both, compared to the SAAMI .458 Lott. It is all in the throat and a bullet long enough to make the span. Physics does not lie. Slick up your action and you can work the longer action fast, don't feel bad about using an H&H-length action for your .458 WinMag.
Here is a funny. The .458 Lott had its brass lengthened by 0.3" and was meant for primary use in an action only 0.2" longer. That is a bit cramped. Don't get me started on using a 3.000" case length (extra 0.5" length) in an action that is only 0.2" longer (long action) or even 0.4" longer (true magnum action).
Bullet weight: 404-gr Shock Hammer easily does +2500 fps from a 24" barrel at COL of 3.380". Nice trajectory. For the CEB 400-gr brass FN, 2500 fps is fast enough at less than 3.380" COL. A shorter solid has more inherent stability in an elephant skull. Fine and dandy in a 3.4" (standard) action length.
Even with the old factory ammo (lousy bullets) Richard Harland and Ron Thomson slew thousands of elephants in control work with their .458 WinMags, circa 1960 and onward. Thomson guessed he had made 5000-6000 kills, and backup on many more. "But what is a few thousand elephant among friends" he said, or something like that.
Really, the saddest thing about the whole deal is how James Watts gets so little credit for starting it all with his .450 Watts Magnum with 2.850" case length, and .450 Watts Short with 2.500" case length, long before anyone else. Alas, the "Winchester Magnum" moniker was necessary for WRAC to get started on their .458, .338, .264, and .300. Watts signed a release to get WRAC going on it.
Jack Lott used a .450 Watts Magnum chamber reamer in a .458 Winchester Magnum barrel with no set back. He was using 2.800" brass length in a chamber of 2.870" length, meant for 2.850" brass. Stolen valor.
And this afterthought by me about the Hornady ammo, more old hat at the Square Table, but some on other forums have not heard it:
Hornady, bless their heart, continue to improve their bullets. The DGX and DGS are their best so far. We can only hope someday they will get it all alright.
What they do produce in the way of internal and external ballistics needs no improvement. It is just the terminal ballistic performance of the bullets that is still wanting.
I have been checking MV of the Hornady 500-gr DGS factory load for the .458 WinMag over the last 5 years. Hornady claims 2140 fps MV in a 24" barrel. They are RIGHT ON. Ruger No. 1 with factory 24" barrel, 1:14" twist DGS 500-gr, 5-shot mean = 2145 fps MV at 52*F
Winchester M70 Super Grade (Cabela's) with factory 23-7/8" barrel, 1:14" twist DGS 500-gr, 5-shot mean = 2135 fps MV at 46*F DGX 500-gr, 5-shot mean = 2146 fps MV at 46*F
Custom FN M98 with Pac-Nor 24-1/4" barrel, 1:10" twist DGX 500-gr, 10-shot mean = 2145 fps MV at 86*F Standard deviation = 7.42 fps Whenever st.dev. in fps is less than number of shots fired, that is excellent.
Same lot of ammo for each DGX or DGS above. Several other rifles tried over the last 5 years. 23" to 25" barrel lengths. Twist 1:14" for all but the one 1:10" twist. Groove diameters all within 0.458" to 0.459". All have SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambers. Temperatures all within 40*F to 90*F range.
All results very much equivalent to Hornady advertising claims for 500-grain bullet MV. They got that right.
One ".458 Winchester Special" custom KRAB 98 Mauser rifle I have has a shorter throat by 0.200" than the SAAMI .458 WinMag chambering. I got it used, said to be Douglas barrel, has a 1:14" twist, groove is 0.458, barrel length 24-1/4" from breech face to muzzle crown.
Custom KRAB M98 with Douglas 24-1/4" barrel, 1:14" twist, non-SAAMI short throat: Hornady factory ammo: DGX 500-gr, 10-shot mean = 2196 fps MV at 86*F
Pressures and velocities were higher with the shorter throat. That is how the .458 Lott works. The SAAMI .458 Lott throat is even shorter than the one on my .458 Winchester Special.
I bought 100 each of the DGS and DGX factory loads about 2018. The last reported MV above was done in the latter half of 2023. Shelf life of Hornady .458 WinMag must be pretty good. At least 5 years with no worries. Stored at about 70*F and normal central heating and AC home humidity.
The 1957 vintage Winchester ammo was good for 64 years. Sometime after 1957, the Democrat voters took over the ammo factories. Last edited: Yesterday at 3:35 PM
Were it so that we had an elephant invasion on the southern border instead of what we do have. Some great warm weather testing would be available in Texas. Alas… F01
This H. P. White Laboratory data was previously found in HATCHER'S NOTEBOOK of 1962 edition. The way it read there, I thought he had gotten this on Nov.8, 1955. Maybe not, may have come later, first published in early 1961 ?
That beloved HiVel#2 load was sourced from this table, it is load #2 here, not compressed. Loads 3,4,5 are compressed. The sixth load here is that factory load from WRAC.
I just got done reading your responses and contributions on africahunting.com. I've been a member there for a few years. Well done Sir Ron!
I almost went to the range today, it's been relatively warm and sunny at 10*C, but didn't feel completely ready. I want to try some of those 400gr TBBC, and I've loaded some 250 TTSX over BIG GAME for my .375. Barnes shows a max of 84.3 grs for their 270gr TSX and LRX, so I loaded 83 for the 250 TTSX, and that seemed highly compressed. If that works out for accuracy, I should be getting well over 2900 fps. The .375 will serve as back-up for the .458 on the Spring Bear Hunt. I've been contributing to the thread on a Ruger No.1 in .375 H&H for black bear. Very interesting thread, even if a bit contentious!
Sir Bob, I am headed to the range tomorrow, Lord willin' an'th'cricks don'razz. First outing for a Garmin XERO. I'll figure something to test for comparison to past results, maybe even some new stuff. Buddy needs an elk load for his .300 WinMag, maybe a starting load for that. Cannot talk him into a .458 WinMag so far, but I am working on it, heh-heh-heh. Will look for your .375 H&H thread ...
Correction to the above: Two different threads on Hunting and Shooting: The one on bears - grizzlies in particular, was: 9.3 x 62 or .338 Win Mag - which would you rather have in your hands when confronted . . .? The other was on a Ruger No 1 in .375 H&H for African game (including DG). I've contributed to both. Both interesting and informative. Hunting and Shooting - Africa for the Ruger No.1 in .375 H&H, and Hunting and Shooting - Rifles, for the 9.2 x 62 vs the .338 Win Mag.
Sir Bob, I am headed to the range tomorrow, Lord willin' an'th'cricks don'razz. First outing for a Garmin XERO. I'll figure something to test for comparison to past results, maybe even some new stuff. Buddy needs an elk load for his .300 WinMag, maybe a starting load for that. Cannot talk him into a .458 WinMag so far, but I am working on it, heh-heh-heh. Will look for your .375 H&H thread ...
That new Garmin makes it fun to get speeds. While expensive it’s really handy and just catches everything.
Just joined AH.com because after seeing your link, curiosity got the better of me.
Unintentionally, I probably added some more fuel to the 458 Lott fire you lit. But, have to call a spade a spade based on my experience with that cartridge. Personally I have no use for a cartridge requiring a true magnum length action which doesn’t deliver any added performance to a 458 WM loaded with proper powders and modern bullets, especially with monolithic solids, when pachyderms are on the list.
For those who truly think they need more power, see the 460 G&A or 450 Rigby. Or, for radicals, throw in the 500 NE 3”. Sometimes, more is more.
Recall that Ms. Piggy Warthog (aka Ol'Fugly) began life as a .458 WinMag barreled-action, Whitworth MKX, purchased from Boondock Sporting Goods in Eagle River, AK circa 1987. She was inspired by Phil Shoemaker's Ol'Ugly which I had read about in 1985.
Over the decades she morphed into a .458 Lott with residual .458 WinMag throat, re-chambered using a SAAMI .458 Lott reamer with no set-back of the SAAMI/CIP .458 Winchester Magnum chamber.
She is not a SAAMI .458 Lott with tight throat and 1:10" twist. I prefer to call her a .458 Watts Winchester 2.8" abbreviated as ".458 WW." Her practical advantages over the .458 WM+ amount to only being better with stubby varmint bullets and birdshot loads. She makes a better rat gun. However, she can also handle any heavy load for the .458 WM+, even those that may be excessive in the short-throated SAAMI .458 Lott.
That was the ammo tested above, and some shootin' results below. Ms. Piggy was never zeroed with this Leupold 1.5-4x20mm until bore sighted at the 50-yard target. Her first three shots with .458 WM+ ammo:
I was aiming at the big central bullseye and got really close to the lower left little diamond. Scope was adjusted to zero with true clicks on the Leupold. Five shots with the .458 WW (2.8" brass) were fired then at 50-yard target, central bullseye, and windage was true, elevation of POI was about 2-1/2" high, attributable to greater muzzle rise from greater recoil (4 grains more powder) and only minimally faster MV:
Here is a XERO summary of that .458 WW target above:
Paint-typed tabulation of all six loads fired, two handloads and four factory loads:
The 500-gr DGX .458 WM load only lost 40 fps from being fired in the longer .458 WW chamber, and had a std dev of only 2.4 fps for 5 shots. The 500-gr DGS .458 WM load similarly lost 51 fps with 3.1 fps std dev. That is excellent factory ammo velocity consistency. In a SAAMI .458 Lott the tighter throat would make for less velocity loss/higher pressure.
Ms. Piggy is good, bad and ugly, even with lipstick.
Ms. Piggy refuses to be photographed when wearing this:
She is threaded 5/8"x24tpi at the muzzle. I am thinking this thing is a pretty effective muzzle brake after all, just not the right shade of lipstick for Ms. Piggy. You'd think it was hair curlers when a camera comes near her.
Sir Jerry, Enaa baasee' for the reply. Ms. Piggy Warthog and the XERO had a good time. They want to do it again. Back to AA-2230 and AA-2460 in the Hornady .458 WM 2.5" brass cases for .458 WM+ loads and in the Hornady .458 Lott 2.8" brass for .458 WW loads. A mere 2500 fps MV is all that is desired, whether from 2.5" or 2.8" case with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Ditto the 400-gr CEB brass FN. Never know when a herd of fentanyl-packing pachyderms might invade the southern border.
Ms. Piggy may have the handicap of about minus 50 fps MV due to the longer chamber, but maybe she can overcome that with some extra powder. At least there is some use for the 2.8" brass without having to cut it down to 2.5". Just making lemonade from the lemon.
Ms. Piggy is a .458 Watts Winchester 2.8". Her throat has 0.1582" longer free travel of bullet than a SAAMI .458 Lott. But there is zero parallel-sided free-bore, all of that free travel is in a gradually tapering leade ending at 0.458"-diameter first touch of the bullet by rifling.
Right cylinder slug jump to contact for three chamberings:
.458 Winchester Magnum 2.500" (SAAMI homologation): 0.6725"
I hereby relinquish the .458 Watts Express 2.7" idea. The .458 Watts Winchester 2.8" takes over now as simply the .458 Watts Express: .458 WE
Will be letting rip again with Ms. Piggy Warthog using some .458 Lott loads from data of bullet makers like Barnes, Hornady, Woodleigh, Federal or others where the specified bullets and powder match what I have on hand. Need to get rid of all those obsolete bullets, making way for the 400-gr CEB Safari Solid and the 404-gr Shock Hammer, at a nice 2500 fps. One planet, one rifle, the .458 WM. Or make do with the .458 WE if you were foolish in youth and re-chambered your .458 WM to .458 L. Make lemonade. Don't squeal all the way home like the other little piggy, "wee wee wee." Think "makin' bacon and lemonade, what a treat !"
Maybe a Sierra, .458 350 grain HPBT Matchking for your Creedmoor rifle. Supposedly good for 1-12" twist, with a .805 bc.
Sir Larry, In what multiverse ? Maybe a .458-.375 sabot ?
Unfortunately it would have to be a sabot. I misread their labeling. Disappointed abounds. Dang, I thought it was a .458". Scratch that idea. I guess the single load CEB types will be the option. Unless there is are other custom options.
Too much fun Sir Ron, you're rippin' it, no pun intended ; ]
Great info Sir.
Sir Ron, I agree with Sir Jerry! No Pun Intended!
Just Rippin at it!
Long Live the Square Table!
HS 58
Yep, i pulled my model 70 458 WM+ out of the safe last night and gave it a good wipe down, bet those 404 Hammers at 2520 will still tear the top out of a Redfield diamond at 100.
I have a slightly 'svelter' twin to miss piggy, 416 Taylor, they are ugly, but, it sure dont take pretty to save ass hide.
Sir Jerry, That is a humorous way to put it, saving ass hide, touche'. Ms. Piggy ought to be good for that even if she is not much to look at. Ms. Piggy the .458 Watts Express.
I am going to pull the old bullets from that old Hornady .458 Lott ammo, dump the powder, de-prime and FL size the "new" brass, prime with F215 and load them with maximum manual loads for the .458 Lott, with bullets and powders matching the manual.
Maximum .458 Lott loads are starting loads for the .458 WE. Then we find the best-balance 400&404 loads for the .458 WE at a modest +2500 fps. Maybe same as your 2520 fps loads for the .458 WM+ 404-gr Shock Hammer. I am guessing AA-2460 may be tops in the .458 WE.
LOL, you bet Sir Ron, my 458's are like lunchmeat, always ready!
Correct, 2460 powder for the win, you'll get the virgin piggy tuned up and singing in no time, i'm still waiting on that smartassed welder bud of mine to take me up on the offer of multiple buffalo, elephant, hippo and rhino hunts, he's been pretty quiet lately!
I'm shooting the 404 grain Shock Hammer @ 3.383" COAL in Norma brass Federal 215 primer ahead of 85 grains of AA2230 new manufactured powder for 2523 FPS. This load may be a bit over SAAMI MAP, but has worked fine in my rifle with repeated loads in the same brass
Excellent .458 WM+ loads from Sirs John and Bob. The .458 Watts Express should handle those loads just fine. Might take a little more powder and kick a little harder to get same MV as Sir John, just like with a .458 Lott henceforth to be known as the .458 L, L for Loser. But Sir Bob's load should translate directly into the .458 WE with very similar velocity and pressure. That H4895 will be vying with AA-2460 for top honors with 400-grainer, methinks. Getting Benchmark past 2500 fps might raise pressures to .458 L levels. Oh no !
Here are Terry Wielands loads for his pet .450 Ackley Magnum with 22" Douglas barrel:
The Clymer reamer print I saw for the .450 AM showed 0.400" length of parallel-sided free-bore of 0.460" diameter at the end of the 2.870" chamber length, then 2.5-degree leade angle. That gives the .450 AM a longer slug jump than the .458 WE. Maybe the extra 1-3/4" of barrel length on Ms. Piggy the .458 WE will allow her to submaximally achieve the submaximal results of Terry Wieland's .450 AM with 22" barrel. To quote Ms. Piggy (she speaks French): "WEE WEE WEE" And I say let her rip, heh heh heh.
But we will not be breaking 2800 fps with Sierra 300-gr Pro Hunter hollow points, since they vaporized at 2800 fps from a .458 WM+.
Timeline: 1939: James Watts standing in a creek near Black Rapids, Alaska shoots charging grizzly with .375 H&H Winchester Model 70 and bear claws Watts' .45 LC revolver off his hip as bear runs him over, then fleeing bear dies on "far side" of creek.
1945: At end of WWII, James Watts begins writing to WRAC asking if they can make a .458/.375 H&H M70 Winchester, and begins visiting Buhmiller, Ackley and Barnes for components.
1949: James Watts with enabler-gunsmith Harvey Anderson creates and fires first .450 Watts Magnum rifle with 2.850" maximum case length, soon followed by 2.5"-cased .450 Watts Short.
1950: Harvey Anderson copyrights .450 Watts Magnum name.
1954: James Watts signs release clearing WRAC to develop .458 Winchester Magnum.
1956: .458 Winchester Magnum is released upon the world.
1959: Jack Lott gut-shoots cape buffalo with 510-grain .458 WinMag factory load, then continues hunting with same cartridge for more than a decade.
1971: Jack Lott uses .450 Watts chamber reamer and a SAAMI .458 WinMag rifle to whip out the .458 Lott, and 22 more years pass ...
1993: R.I.P. Jack Lott.
June 4, 1998, a day that will live in infamy: SAAMI homologation of the .458 Lott as engineered by Art Alphin of A-Square.
2002: Hornady and Ruger produce ammunition and rifles for SAAMI .458 Lott, and 22 more years pass ...
2024: The .458 Watts Express (2.8") gets righteous, 75 years after the .450 Watts Magnum (2.85") started it all.
I have a Lottite calling me "darling" over at AH forum, so I am having some fun with the facts over there:
hoytcanon,
No need for you to call me darling for your own pleasure, I am not into that kind of stuff. You may call me "Sir" or just "hey you" will do.
When CIP first homologated the .458 Lott pretender, they tacked the full SAAMI .458 WinMag throat onto the chamber for 2.800" brass. For some reason that did not last long after the SAAMI short-throated version came out. CIP changed to match SAAMI.
SAAMI short throat .458 Lott allowed pressures and velocities to get up to 62,500 psi and 2250 fps with a 500-grain bullet and 3.600" COL. SAAMI .458 WinMag was doing 60,000 psi and 2200 fps with same 500-grain bullet and 3.340" COL. That was with same powders (minimal or no compression) in same barrel length of 24". Sure, the SAAMI .458 Lott twist was 1:10" (an obvious sign of Art Alphin's A-Square shenannigans as a member of SAAMI) while the SAAMI .458 WinMag has a twist of 1:14". But that twist difference is insignificant. Going from 1:14" to 1:7" has been found to cause less than one-half of one percent difference in velocity and pressure by military artillery studies. Faster twist theoretically may increase pressure and decrease velocity, I have .458 rifles of both 1:10" and 1:14" and no discernible effects. I save the 1:18" and 1:20" rifles for being gentler on cast bullets.
If you use the original CIP long-throated .458 Lott in a bolt action rifle meant for 3.6" COL, you are wasting effective case capacity of the long throat, and at same time imposing the pressure lowering effects of same throat. You end up with a slow rifle. Your supposed 2300 fps 500-grainer will not break 2200 fps MV. I had one of those once, an early CZ 550 Magnum .458 Lott chambered at the factory with the earliest CIP reamer. Shot 500-grainers at about 2150 fps instead of the factory standard of 2250 fps.
It is really silly to take a 2.5" case meant for use in a 3.4" magazine length then add 0.3" to brass length yet add only 0.2" to magazine length. Use a 2.8" case in a 3.6" magazine. Ha ha.
The old standard bullet nose projections have to be shortened, bullets made more blunt, or the bullets seated more deeply, or drastically lightened by overall shortening of bullet, or the brass trimmed short. It is what it is, maybe some of it not a bad thing.
If you want to use a long-throated .458 Lott, you have to use a single shot to get full benefit. And then you will probably have to change the powders, use more of a slower powder, get even greater recoil than what is generated by merely increasing bullet MV.
I think the optimum would be a 2.7" case in 3.6" magazine, like the 2.5" case in a 3.4" magazine. But even the 2.5"-cased SAAMI .458 WinMag can be loaded in the CZ 550 Magnum or Ruger No. 1 to a COL of 3.780" or 3.760" with a 500-grain TSX crimped in the 5th/last cannelure/groove on that bullet. Individual lots of that bullet have varied by about 0.020" in overall bullet length over the years. 2342 fps with that bullet was my top load in a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber with 24-7/8" barrel length, CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action.
The shorter 500-grain TBSS at 3.58" COL does +2400 fps in a 24" barreled Ruger No. 1, factory barrel. That is a non-SAAMI handload called the .458 WM+ in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber.
.458 WinMag rifles X 6 and a 7th in the works .458 B&M with throat lengthened = .458 B&M+ X 1 .458 Watts Express (.458 WM rechambered for 2.8" brass) X 1 .450 Barnes Supreme (like a .450 Ackley Magnum from the 1950s) X 1 .458/.416 Ruger wildcat X 1 .45-70 Elko Magnum (.45-100-2.6" Sharps with SAAMI .458 WinMag full throat tacked on) X 2 .450 NE 3-1/4" (rechambered .458 Lott stainless/laminate Ruger No. 1-H) X 1 .458/.338 Lapua Magnum (.460 Weatherby barrel set back and rechambered) X 1 .450 Dakota SIG Arms Magnum Mauser 98, Mauser Banner, Prechtl action X 1
The wood on the last one is too pretty to abuse, so I limit it to .458 WM+ equivalent loads. It weighs 9.5 pounds unloaded, no scope, express sights only. I have .458 WinMags that are field ready with scope, ammo, and sling that weigh less and are shorter in length.
That may be why I am working on my seventh SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum that shoots .458 WM+ handloads, or the standard Hornady factory ammo , 500-gr DGX-Bonded and DGS, that does 2140 fps from a 24" barrel. My favorite handload is 400-gr to 404-gr bullet at +2500 fps and 3.38" COL. Mild for 23" or 24" or 25" barrel lengths in SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag. My 7th .458 WinMag will have a 20" barrel to prove the load can be hotted up to 2500 fps in that barrel length: .458 WM+
Sir Bob, What the heck, we better hear more from you or a search party will be sent out !
Methinks the tide is turning over at AH, and the Lottite flotsam is washing out to sea.
I need to copy some of it here:
Q: "What do you consider the best factory ammo for the 458? Hornaday since it gets to 2150fps (sic) or Federal still at 2090fps but with Swift A-Frames if you don't handload?"
A: Hornady is excellent for uniformity (St.Dev. for a 5-shot group being on the order of 3 fps) and in actually delivering 500-grainers at 2140 fps MV from a 24" .458 WinMag barrel. The DGS and DGX-Bonded are good bullets but there are better bullets.
Buffalo Bore Ammunition has excellent .458 WinMag ammo with a 400-gr TSX advertised at 2250 fps in Tim Sundles' 18" custom rifle and 2247 fps in his 22" factory rifle. I tried it and got 2336 fps MV in a 24" factory Ruger No. 1 barrel, and 2350 fps MV in a 25" Shilen barrel.
Buffalo Bore also loads 450-gr TSX and a 450-gr copper FN solid at advertised 2200 fps MV.
404 Gr. Hammer Bullet – “Shock Hammer” @ 2,550 FPS / 5,832 LBS / TKO – 67 Fantastic big Game bullet with great extended range capabilities. This bullet is a perfect all copper fragmenting and deep penetrating Game stopper!!! (20 Round Box) $117.50 (Excluding Tax)
450 Gr. Cutting Edge – Brass Solid @ 2,450 FPS / 5,996 LBS / TKO- 72 Great deep penetrating, bone crushing and accurate Big or dangerous game load! (20 Rounds) $115.00 (Excluding Tax)
500 Gr. Hornady – DGS @ 2,200 FPS / 5,372 LBS / TKO – 72 This is a great flat nosed profile solid with copper clad steel jacket, absolutely one of the deepest penetrating bullets with true dangerous or heavy Game capabilities! (20 Rounds) $117.00 (Excluding Tax)
etc.
You are missing out if you don't handload the .458 WinMag. CEB and Hammer bullets galore.
Q: "What is the go to Hodgdon or IMR powder for it? Those seem to be the only brands I can sort of reliably find."
A: Hodgdon from faster to slower below: H4198 H322 Benchmark H335 (ball) H4895 Varget
Except for H335, those are all extruded "EXTREME" powders of good Thermo-Ballistic-Independence, Benchmark maybe the best of all in regards to TBI. H335 ain't bad in any way, however.
AA-2230 and AA-2460 fall right between H335 and H4895. They are supposed to be formulated for improved TBI in lots since 2016. I think AA-2230 is made from AA-2460 with half of the balls flattened to make it burn a little faster and pack into a smaller space.
Anything good in a .223/5.56 is good in the .458 WinMag, so the black rifle fad has been a boon to the .458 WinMag. From AA-5744 to CFE 223, for light to heavy bullets.
If I had to pick one powder it would be H4895. You can use it at 60% of a maximum load and requires no filler, for all sorts of light loads. You can also use it at 110% compressed after drop tube and get well over 2600 fps with a 400-grainer:
You use the maximum Woodleigh manual load for the .458 Lott with 400-gr PPSN: 87 grains COMPRESSED H4895
Crimp the bullet in the Woodleigh cannelure for the .458 Lott. Roll another cannelure onto the Woodleigh bullet 0.3" below the factory cannelure, using a CH4D Cann-Tool. Then load the .458 Lott and the .458 WM+ with same powder and same degree of compression to same COL: 3.425" The Woodleigh 400-gr PPSN has a short nose projection of only 0.625" in the .458 Lott load with seating depth of 0.530". In the .458 WM+ load, the nose projection is 0.925" and seating depth is only 0.230" with this stubby cup & core bullet. This is just a stunt to prove a point. I did it.
Woodleigh manual result for a .458 Lott with unspecified barrel length, probably 24" = 2570 fps My result for .458 WM+ load in 25" Shilen barrel with SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber = 2627 fps MV
Stay tuned for a review of the article by Ganyana in AFRICAN HUNTER Vol. 12 No.3: "THE .458 ... A Cartridge I Love to Hate! This was sent to me by Sir Woods. I did not have that issue, but I did have Vol. 12 No. 6 with another article by Don Heath: "The .458 Lott One of Africa's More Versatile Cartridges?"
I like that question mark at the end of the title. Don Heath did that, not me. Ganyana was the pseudonym of Don Heath. It means "one born with the gift of patience" or "King after a long war" or some such in Swahili.
I think (CENSORED Lottite's handle) is upset that he cannot load his .458 Lott to as short a length as the .458 WinMag, yet the SAAMI/CIP .458 WinMag chamber can be loaded to longer COL than the current SAAMI/CIP .458 Lott chamber. Shooting non-SAAMI ammo in a SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber is not fair, according to (CENSORED).
The biggest shame of the .458 Lott is that Jack Lott used a 1949-designed .450 Watts Magnum chamber reamer for 2.850" brass in a .458 WinMag barrel and called it what he did, after shortening the brass to 2.800" in 1971. Then Art Alphin came along and short-throated it for SAAMI version of 1998. Art must have gotten the idea from his Army days when he got short-sheeted by barracks mates. Art also stole the .510 Buhmiller Magnum and called it the .500 A-Square.
Nice article by Don Heath aka Ganyana in AFRICAN HUNTER Vol. 12 No. 3. Picture above from that article.
At least James Watts told WRAC in 1954 that it was good of them to call the .450 Watts Short by a new name, ".458 Winchester Magnum" finally released in 1956. WRAC might even be responsible for throating it that way.
Also great to see "A late 1950's vintage .450 Watts magnum factory load." Funny that the .450 Watts brass looks to have been trimmed to shorter length than the "modern .458 Lott round."
Could it be possible that some ammo factory trimmed .450 Watts Magnum brass to less than 2.850" and still called it a .450 Watts Magnum ?
I no longer weep about having mutilated a .458 WinMag by re-chambering to .458 Lott. All it took was renaming it to ".458 Watts Express."
I am very happy with my .458 Watts Express which was made by running a SAAMI .458 Lott reamer into a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum rifle with no set-back of the barrel. That cleans up a SAAMI .458 Lott throat, transforming it to leade-only. A totally new cartridge ! Slightly different and better than the original wildcat Jack Lott did. It has chamber length of only 2.810" instead of the 2.870" chamber length of the first ".458 Lott." Trimming my brass to 2.790" makes more sense.
The .458 Watts Express and the SAAMI .458 Lott are both better for imitating a .410 shotgun. You can get a bit more birdshot into the 2.8" case than the 2.5" case.
Very interesting is that he used a lathe to turn the old flat-based, non-cannelured 400-gr X-bullet into a boat-tailed version of 300-gr weight:
Here are Ganyana's .458 Lott loads, all of which can be equaled or surpassed by the .458 WM+, of course:
Standard SAAMI .458 WinMag loads with powders and bullets of today are no practical difference from a SAAMI .458 Lott. Still no love lost for a Lottite, I am sure.
You are missing out if you don't handload the .458 WinMag.
Years ago, I lived in a big rambling 1891 Victorian house but as I got closer to retirement and the kids moved out, I downsized to a much smaller & cozier place. I really like it but part of the trade-off was I have limited room available to me for some of my hobbies. Since I mainly hunt and don't shoot large quantities of rounds at the range, I decided that I would continue to get by with commercial ammo since my needs were not too demanding and this was an adequate solution. However, this has gradually started to change. Now that I have more time to do what I want, I find myself shooting & hunting a lot more. Another thing that has piqued my interest is the usage of larger calibers (e.g. 9.3, 375 & 458) for a wider range of applications which obviously makes handloading not only more attractive but pretty much a necessity if I really wanted to explore & test these caliber's potential.
So with this new rearranging of my priorities, I decided to give reloading a try. One of my early purchases was the Garmin Xero which looks like a really nice tool to use. I'm looking forward to getting out to the range again now that hunting season has ended & the weather is getting really nice. But unfortunately, I wasn't paying close enough attention to the details of this new pastime & I think I may have miscalculated a bit. The increase of ammo on the shelves and what "appeared" to be the availability of needed supplies gave me the impression that some of the critical shortages of the recent past had abated enough where it was possible to attempt to get started with this new hobby.
But once I seriously started to shop for presses, scales & other supplies, the fact that it appeared that I could only get large quantities of needed primers from sites that required payment in BitCoins & via Zelle gave me a moment of pause.
It looks like there may still be some obstacles for a newbie to start loading 458 WM cartridges.
Since my new 458 WM barrel hasn't arrived from McGowen yet & I have zero 458 WM ammo, I might as well buy some from these guys for initial testing & plinking. It'll be a few months before I'll be able to let you know how it goes but it's great that getting the 404gr Shock Hammer is an available option.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
No riled up Lottites have replied there yet. But I am hopeful for a bite eventually, at:
I just got finished reading that thread. It appears that referring to a 458 Lott as a 458 Loser was the correct bait to get a bite. It's nice to see you making new friends on other forums.
Sir Ron - the shot capsule got my attention - do you have any experience with those? I would imagine a capsule full of #9s would be useful for rats. Not sure any other cartridge can span that far - mice to elephants and anything in between!
I would imagine a capsule full of #9s would be useful for rats. Not sure any other cartridge can span that far - mice to elephants and anything in between!
If it’ll handle a load of Morton Iodized Salt I could retire my Bug-A-Salt & declare my 458 WM the undisputed all-around weapon of choice. Or is shooting the 458 WM indoors finally taking things a step too far?
Sir Ron - the shot capsule got my attention - do you have any experience with those? I would imagine a capsule full of #9s would be useful for rats. Not sure any other cartridge can span that far - mice to elephants and anything in between!
Sir Thomas,
I have the shot capsules, have not tried them yet, but did try 400-grains of No. 7-1/2 shot with a Circle Fly Nitro Card wad over powder (18.5 grains of BLUE DOT) and an inverted gas check over shot. Did OK in the .458 WinMag, but might do better with shot capsules and smaller shot, OK for mice.
Sir Darryl, Better not retire the Bug-A-Salt. Even a Lottite would admit the .458 WinMag might be too powerful for flyswatter use, inside home or camp tent. Go for it outdoors !
Here is what Ganyana said about his trials with the Speer shot capsules:
"Then I tried Speer's shot capsules intended for use in the .45 Colt revolver round. Putting two capsules in a case proved a failure. One opened and the other punched a neat .45 caliber hole in the target. Loading the supplied wad on top of the powder, filling the case with shot, and seating the rest of the capsule (again filled with shot) to form a 'bullet', so the round would feed from the magazine, produced acceptable results with a load of 15grn S265. The best results though, came by combining a .410 cup on top of the powder and the top half of the Speer capsule squeezed in to form the 'bullet' and hold extra shot. The shotgun wad took up a fair amount of space, so I could only get 300grn of No 7 pellets into these rounds, but the cup and capsule provided better protection of the shot from the rifling, and the pattern was better out to fifteen metres despite the lighter payload."
I will have to try that in the .458 Watts Express, like the .458 Lott 300 grains of No. 7 shot, versus my way for 400 grains of No. 7-1/2 (or No. 9 ?) in the mighty .458 WinMag. Heh-heh-heh.
Ganyana reported zeroing his .458 Lott 450-gr TSX bullet (2380 fps) for 50 meters. Then his single, hardcast lead roundball (.460" diameter, 150 grains) load was spot on at 20 meters. 800 fps from 12 grains of South African powder called MS200. Higher velocity and the ball skids in rifling and accuracy goes south. "25 yard load at best." Touted as a small game load, feeds well from magazine too. "To make up one of these rounds, resize the case -- bell the mouth slightly; prime; tip in the powder; and seat the ball tightly by finger pressure alone. The case does not need resizing after shooting with such light powder charges, and a simple `Lee Loader' de-capping punch and a primer seating base is all the equipment required for endless fun and practice."
I bet even a .458 Winchester Magnum could be used for that.
My first screw up here was in using three of the .451" balls with a gas check under them in a .458 WinMag with 18.5 grains of BLUE DOT.
Those were soft swaged lead balls of too small diameter.
Hardcast roundball of 0.460" diameter at 800 fps seems to be the recipe for accuracy, for head shots on guineafowl and squirrels and such. The Garmin XERO will make that easier to arrive at.
.460 ball of softer alloy likely would be better Sir Ron. A good bump in the rear from your pistol/shotgun powder to fill the grooves would be better than even a small skid of a harder ball as it hits the riflings. In either case; great experiment! Best regards! F01
Sir Ron, this thread continues to provide useful insights into so many issues about the 458 Win Mag. Thanks for your continued efforts.
I had read about isolated ignition problems in the early years but I did not realise that this was a persistent, widespread problem (in Africa) over many years. Shelf life of 458 Win Mag ammo was a huge concern as savvy users insisted on freshly produced ammo. This raises a few questions:
1. Did other cartridges suffer the same problem or was it isolated to the 458 Win Mag. You only ever hear of 458 Win Mag ammo problems.
2. I suspect it had to do with powder compression and perhaps the primers used that might have lead to ignition problems. In those days magnum rifle primers probably weren’t widely available and more to the point, did Winchester even make a magnum rifle primer back in the day?
These days there are hotter primers for improved ignition and more suitable powders that can be loaded without compression, with some also being temperature stable. Add to this a wide range of better bullets and the 458 Win Mag is a better choice today than at any time in the past.
.460 ball of softer alloy likely would be better Sir Ron. A good bump in the rear from your pistol/shotgun powder to fill the grooves would be better than even a small skid of a harder ball as it hits the riflings. In either case; great experiment! Best regards! F01
Sir Dennis, I like your thinking, and lacking a roundball mould for .460" hardcast alloy, I am trying the .457" swaged lead ball from Hornady but powder-coat painting them to at least 0.460" diameter. I have a batch of them done already, lying fallow, meant for either the .458 WinMag or the .458 Watts Express.
Seems the most practical thing to do for a squib load is Ganyana's single ball at 800 fps, .460" ball with 12 grains of SOMCHEM MS200 or same charge of one of these as a stand-in: ADI: AP50N Hodgdon: HP-38 Alliant: Red Dot IMR: PB Winchester: W231 Accurate Arms: AA2 Vihtavuori: N320
With just a pinch of powder, a primer, and roundball seated by finger pressure only, there is nothing to confuse a Garmin XERO. Fun fun fun.
Michael McCourry has informed me of leading problems with the snakeshot loads. Never knew the leading could be so bad, but after only a few shots it decreases MV and changes POI of hi-power loads. My gascheck and birdshot sandwich loads would surely be awful, unless the gaschecks leading and following the shot did some scraping of lead ? Emergency use only for snakes and mice. Each snake load followed by a hi-power scrubber bullet. Insurance shot on varmint. Most good PHs will fire their rifles one shot once a month to clean them, whether the rifle needs it or not !
I do have some No. 9 Lawrence Brand Magnum shot, about 2 pounds of it. 150-grains of that shot is the most I can cram into one of the Speer .45-cal shot capsules with cap installed. Maybe I'll be happy with a light charge of the tiny shot if it patterns well at 10 feet to 10 yards !
Sir Ron, this thread continues to provide useful insights into so many issues about the 458 Win Mag. Thanks for your continued efforts.
I had read about isolated ignition problems in the early years but I did not realise that this was a persistent, widespread problem (in Africa) over many years. Shelf life of 458 Win Mag ammo was a huge concern as savvy users insisted on freshly produced ammo. This raises a few questions:
1. Did other cartridges suffer the same problem or was it isolated to the 458 Win Mag. You only ever hear of 458 Win Mag ammo problems.
Might have something to do with volume of ammo produced by yayhoos at the defective factory and the volume of that same ammo subsequently abused by yayhoos in the field. It was a popular cartridge until the yayhoos screwed the pooch.
2. I suspect it had to do with powder compression and perhaps the primers used that might have lead to ignition problems. In those days magnum rifle primers probably weren’t widely available and more to the point, did Winchester even make a magnum rifle primer back in the day?
Defective powder lots and defective loading techniques by the yayhoos. Reports abounded of factory loads with mixtures of ball and extruded powders in different cartridges in the same 20-count box of ammo. Reports have been heard of factory ammo machines run amuck and spilling as much powder as was loaded into the case. Yayhoos take smoke breaks and have to get away from the line now and then. Used to be the WLR primer from Winchester was for standard and magnum loads, including .458 WinMag. Now they have the WLRM for magnum applications.
These days there are hotter primers for improved ignition and more suitable powders that can be loaded without compression, with some also being temperature stable. Add to this a wide range of better bullets and the 458 Win Mag is a better choice today than at any time in the past.
Amen, Sir Joe. No flies on the .458 WinMag nowadays. A 2006 "Heavy Magnum" .458 WinMag load from Hornady was advertised for 500-gr RN InterBond at 2260 fps MV. Ganyana tested the ammo and chronographed it at 2230 fps (instrumental I presume) in a Zimbabwean .458 WinMag. Funny thing Ganyana said was that Hornady told him the shelf life of the HEAVY MAGNUM loads was only six months. After that period of time no guarantees. Ha ha ha. That was a short-lived offering by Hornady factory, pun intended.
The 64 year-old WRAC factory .458 WinMag ammo that I tested, made in 1957, was still doing +2080 fps with 500-grainer, same as the H. P. White test of same factory load that was published in 1961.
Sir Ron, Powder life is one of those topics that bring out the full range of opinions very quickly in gun forums. I find it logically and observably true that not only do, and or did, some powders have issues but heavy compression is an additive problem to powder life. Heat also is poison in the mixture. My one example is 65 grains of h414 in an ‘06 case turned solid in around 5 years. At least that is when I found it… I have an old 30-06 that used that much behind a Barnes 165 x to get up to speed. Very accurate and my father in law slew whitetail with it quite successfully. After he passed away I was going to shoot up the last of the ammo and had both a near squib and a full failure to fire. Pulled a bullets to find a solid mass of “melted” powder. Best regards F01
Brings new meaning to "Better living through chemistry" i.e. propellant chemistry. Colossal flubs have happened. $#IT HAPPENS, even in a .30-06 loaded with H414, eh ? Could've happened to any cartridge if the factory was run by Democrats.
Trail Boss is a little faster and way fluffier than MS200. 10 to 12 grains of it might be suitable for a Ganyana Ball at 800 fps ?
The Bubba in me is wanting to test some new concoctions. I drove 6 road trips back and forth between Lower 48 and Alaska during 1985 to 1994 period, from KY, MO, and FL. Somewhere along the way I came into possesson of a circa 1993 Canadian publication that really caught my attention:
I also have a 1954 GUN DIGEST article about the ".458 MCW Express" (wildcat cartridge used in the sabot experiments above, along with the .458 WM) that totally ignores the 450 Watts Magnum of 1949, just like Jack Lott did. Now that we have the .458 Watts Express to run side-by-side with the .458 WM+, life is good.
Sir Ron, Powder life is one of those topics that bring out the full range of opinions very quickly in gun forums. I find it logically and observably true that not only do, and or did, some powders have issues but heavy compression is an additive problem to powder life. Heat also is poison in the mixture. My one example is 65 grains of h414 in an ‘06 case turned solid in around 5 years. At least that is when I found it… I have an old 30-06 that used that much behind a Barnes 165 x to get up to speed. Very accurate and my father in law slew whitetail with it quite successfully. After he passed away I was going to shoot up the last of the ammo and had both a near squib and a full failure to fire. Pulled a bullets to find a solid mass of “melted” powder. Best regards F01
65gn of H414/760 would be a hot load in any .30/06 I tested with a 165gn bullet. Most topped out at 59-61 grains and even then, velocity was leaning on high 2900's. Hope no-one attempts to load this high.
Well Sir Ron, If you come up with a sabot material, I have some 220 Hornady solids… F01
Sir Dennis,
I have no hope of .458/.308 sabots unless I make my own like Bosselmann did. His article is fascinating. I am thinking I might have to settle for experimenting with the .45/.35 muzzleloader sabots.
The time has come for me to pick my termite hill to die on: 400-gr CEB solid and 404-gr Shock Hammer to do it all. That would be for 2500 fps MV (or a little faster) in the .458 WM+ or .458 Watts Express. Even a SAAMI .458 Loser can do that too, if we must practice DEI or DIE.
I am limiting my serious .458 hi-power loads to that bullet weight class, 400-ish grains, which I find most interesting. New bullet technology that is thoroughly reliable and all in for all tasks. Any other handloading is just for yucks, including the ball & shot & sabot loads.
That is a .40-cal 200-gr inside the sized-down .45 ACP brass sabot. Maybe slit the .45 ACP case with a hacksaw in hopes of changing a non-discarding into a discarding sabot. R&D continues, just for yucks.
Maybe try the Power Belt (plastic-skirted) .45-cal muzzleloader bullets inside a .458 WM case ?
My local range died and I am joining a better place come April Fools' Day. Will be pulling those decrepit SAAMI .458 Loser bullets and loading up some .458 Watts Express to shoot from the termite hill or at the new range, whichever I can get to first.
Yep, it was 4 grains over the other ‘06 in the stable. I figured all the folks on this thread know the facts of reloading etc. The powder was under heavy compression and the bullet seat at max magazine length, crimped with a Lee FCD to hold it in, and fired in a very much shot barrel with throat beyond the OAL of this bastard load. The chrono showed normal 165 grain speeds and lastly the old Pump 760 loaded and ejected just fine. Indeed nobody should attempt to replicate. Best regards, F01
For all the Sirs at the Square Table, especially Sir Ron who has been so helpful in many ways in getting this done:
It finally got warm enough for my thin skin to make it to the range today - barely warm enough. I left the house at -1C/about 30F. Fifty minutes later I arrived at the range with temps around +3C (further south and closer to Lake Ontario that's always warmer than up where we live in the winter and spring. Summer is probably hottter up here because down there they get breezes off the lake. Anyway by the time I got set up (first one there) and waiting for everyone else to get their targets in place about 9:30 am, temps were up to 5-6*C. When I left 1 & 1/2 hrs later they were all the way to +10C. When I did my shooting it was somewhere between 6 - 8*C/ about 45*F. With about 15 to 20mph wind in my face I got chilled. So shooting temps were gradually warming but nonetheless cold to me after a winter of mostly indoors.
First up were those Federal factory 400gr TBBCs. I placed the Chrony so I could shoot at 50 yds. It took two to get on paper because it was last sighted for those 250gr MonoFlex at about 2685 fps, so I knew the 400s would be quite low of the sighting. Nonetheless, I put the crosshairs on center and squeezed of the one I'd disassembled and put back together again. It went "bang" and recorded the MV, but missed the target low. I tried a second that was recorded but missed low again as my thinking was to confirm a missing the target low. I aimed reticule to the top/center of the target, which recorded MV and came within 2" of center diamond, slightly right. Then the last two I overdid the correction but put two touching at near the bottom of the target. Because I was chilled, I'm planning another trip as soon as the weather starts to settle into the mid teens, then I'll make a group very slightly over center at 50 yds. As I said, the last two fired (I planned on shooting 5 total today) were touching with a spread of 0.393". There's promise there.
Here are the MVs, 1st to last shot: 2298, 2233, 2290, 2284, and 2248: corrected average to MV = 2282 fps/4624.8 ft-lbs. Recoil about 45 ft-lbs, minus the Mag-na-porting = ~40.5 ft-lbs with the rifle at 10.25 lbs with a single cartridge loaded and none in the stock cartridge holder. With 4 more +1 in chamber add 8 oz to total weight. That would add 1/2 lb to field weight but also reduce felt recoil by about 2 ft-lbs. Federal advertised the 400gr TBBC at an MV of 2250 fps, so my chronograph readings beat that by ~ 32 fps average of five.
I also fired two new loads in my .375 H&H. The first load reduced from last years load by 1 gr because it appeared to give less extreme spread: 3 into 0.963" at fifty - not great. The next load was the star of the show: 3 into 0.382" - a ragged hole. Average corrected to MV = 2847 fps from the 250gr Barnes TTSX. Pleasant to shoot. 83 grs of BIG GAME. Recoil: `41 ft-lbs with one in the chamber single loaded = 9.75 lbs. Will make some tweeks to put the group just over center at 50 yds. My bear bait will be at 40 - 50 yds from my blind. Bears are out already yet there's almost 2 months before hunting starts!
Will summarize details in tomorrow's blog with a few pics.
Enaa baasee' Sir Bob, The lore of the .458 Winchester Magnum is duly annotated with latest Federal Factory Premium Safari Trophy Bonded bear Claw 400-gr MV in 24" barrel (Ruger No. 1) at 45*F: MV = 2282 fps.
The Federal Factory ammo with old version TBBC 400-grainer was also advertised at 2250 fps MV but in my 24" barrel (M70 Winchester) at 77*F 8-shot instrumental average = 2333fps, MV = 2345 fps for BC = 0.353. Standard deviation for those eight shots = 23.9 fps. As usual, we know we can do better with handloads.
At least the new TBCC seems to be a better bullet than the old one, and they are getting closer to hitting the advertised velocity, exceeding it by a lesser amount, not bad, heh-heh-heh. Probably can't get them as component bullets (?) for hotting up to .458 WM+.
Oh LORDY Sir Ron, let those AH boys have their fun, i wouldn't soil a 458 WM Bore with plastic, hell, i'm so retarded i wont even shoot a plastic tipped bullet in any factory pre-64 model 70 or fine FN Belgian Browning!
404gr Hammers 450gr TSX 500gr Partitions 500gr Woodleigh PP's 500gr TB Solids......................Do a 458 WM bore 'very' good, and do animals VERY, VERY bad ; ]
RC, hope I don't thread drift too much, but I wanted to show you all the Woodman Arms Patriot. They use a Brux 1-18 barrel and they are .452's (don't kick me off the Roundtable).
I had to monkey around a bit sizing the 300 grain Parker's down to fit my bore since this rifle was meant for smokeless..
Ended up hunting with the 60 grain load this past season.
Took a couple coyotes and a meat deer for an old family friend.
Finally got around to shooting the last two loads I had left over before I cleaned it up and decided to check it with the Garmin.
So I guess what I am saying is the little Woodman thinks its a mini 458 Winchester
Sorry for the thread drift, but I know some of you all appreciate odd stuff now and again and it is a .45 caliber and alllllllmost a .458
Back in the 90's (doesn't seem that long ago) I playing with a few light bullets in the .458. 300gn Remington, 300gn Hornady, both kinds as they changed the ogive shape, 300gn X bullet, 400gn Woodleigh Spire Point weld Core, 400gn Speer, 400gn X bullet and 405gn Remington as well as a bunch more, 17 in all and 13 powders. Factory rounds additional.
I hit on a terrific load as many others have, so it's not an exclusive fluke on my turf, but THE load in the .458 was the Barnes 400gn X bullet loaded to 2434fps using 74gn of H 4198, Fed 215 with an OAL of 3.345". Still have rounds loaded for the right time and ready to go.
The road was muddied along the way when Barnes TSX's in 350 and 450gn were being sold online for about $20 per hundred and then you have the 250 and 300gn Barnes Cave Points designed for the .45/70, Woodleigh Weldcores in 550gn, Barnes Traditionals in 600gn and whatever else I have forgotten, but the point it, for a supposed dangerous game cartridge, the amount of options is incredible. Although most here will take medium game in volume, compared to the larger animals we'd all like a crack at, it's nice to know we always have the right cartridge in our hands anywhere grass grows and there is a bit scrub to hide behind.
We are at a point of dilema as US users are limited by game laws and seasons and costs that prohibit much hunting and Aussies who can hunt 365 days minus snake days, are limited by bullet option and handloading costs which are around double what the US is complaining about. Put the 2 together, and we'll get by, so I am glad Mike started this thread and Ron seized upon it as an outlet for himself for consolidation of information.
If such enthusiasm was done across each caliber AND their cartridges as regardless of contribution errors, these are mutually exclusive, gun writing would become largely superfluous.
One thing is for certain, there never has been a writer who knew more than a fraction of that contained within this thread. Colaboration is its finest form. Well done all and most importantly, not done yet.
Back in the 90's (doesn't seem that long ago) I playing with a few light bullets in the .458. 300gn Remington, 300gn Hornady, both kinds as they changed the ogive shape, 300gn X bullet, 400gn Woodleigh Spire Point weld Core, 400gn Speer, 400gn X bullet and 405gn Remington as well as a bunch more, 17 in all and 13 powders. Factory rounds additional.
I hit on a terrific load as many others have, so it's not an exclusive fluke on my turf, but THE load in the .458 was the Barnes 400gn X bullet loaded to 2434fps using 74gn of H 4198, Fed 215 with an OAL of 3.345". Still have rounds loaded for the right time and ready to go.
The road was muddied along the way when Barnes TSX's in 350 and 450gn were being sold online for about $20 per hundred and then you have the 250 and 300gn Barnes Cave Points designed for the .45/70, Woodleigh Weldcores in 550gn, Barnes Traditionals in 600gn and whatever else I have forgotten, but the point it, for a supposed dangerous game cartridge, the amount of options is incredible. Although most here will take medium game in volume, compared to the larger animals we'd all like a crack at, it's nice to know we always have the right cartridge in our hands anywhere grass grows and there is a bit scrub to hide behind.
We are at a point of dilema as US users are limited by game laws and seasons and costs that prohibit much hunting and Aussies who can hunt 365 days minus snake days, are limited by bullet option and handloading costs which are around double what the US is complaining about. Put the 2 together, and we'll get by, so I am glad Mike started this thread and Ron seized upon it as an outlet for himself for consolidation of information.
If such enthusiasm was done across each caliber AND their cartridges as regardless of contribution errors, these are mutually exclusive, gun writing would become largely superfluous.
One thing is for certain, there never has been a writer who knew more than a fraction of that contained within this thread. Colaboration is its finest form. Well done all and most importantly, not done yet.
Something I was curious about: would the momentum of Sir Ron's "400"gr TBBC at 2345 fps be nearly the same as the momentum "400"gr TBBC from my Ruger No.1 at 2282 fps since the "400" TBBC from Sir Ron's tests were not really 400gr but 390.5 gr and mine were 10 grs heavier at 400.5 grs. It turns out that, indeed, the momentum of each load is nearly identical. Mine averaged 2282 fps for five, and if Sir Ron's Federal's TBBC were 400.5 grs, based on momentum at the muzzle, they would have been making 2286 fps average from eight. Very close! Plus, the 400.5 gr has a slight advantage in sectional density at .2724 vs .2656 for the 390.5 gr.
Some questions (added): Do Federal make their own brass and bullets? Were there technical reasons for those slight changes or "happenstance"? From a sales perception, it appears to be the same product, and from a hunter's view it might not matter anyway. But the 400.5gr bullet appears to be better in some ways.
Back in the 90's (doesn't seem that long ago) I playing with a few light bullets in the .458. 300gn Remington, 300gn Hornady, both kinds as they changed the ogive shape, 300gn X bullet, 400gn Woodleigh Spire Point weld Core, 400gn Speer, 400gn X bullet and 405gn Remington as well as a bunch more, 17 in all and 13 powders. Factory rounds additional.
I hit on a terrific load as many others have, so it's not an exclusive fluke on my turf, but THE load in the .458 was the Barnes 400gn X bullet loaded to 2434fps using 74gn of H 4198, Fed 215 with an OAL of 3.345". Still have rounds loaded for the right time and ready to go.
The road was muddied along the way when Barnes TSX's in 350 and 450gn were being sold online for about $20 per hundred and then you have the 250 and 300gn Barnes Cave Points designed for the .45/70, Woodleigh Weldcores in 550gn, Barnes Traditionals in 600gn and whatever else I have forgotten, but the point it, for a supposed dangerous game cartridge, the amount of options is incredible. Although most here will take medium game in volume, compared to the larger animals we'd all like a crack at, it's nice to know we always have the right cartridge in our hands anywhere grass grows and there is a bit scrub to hide behind.
We are at a point of dilema as US users are limited by game laws and seasons and costs that prohibit much hunting and Aussies who can hunt 365 days minus snake days, are limited by bullet option and handloading costs which are around double what the US is complaining about. Put the 2 together, and we'll get by, so I am glad Mike started this thread and Ron seized upon it as an outlet for himself for consolidation of information.
If such enthusiasm was done across each caliber AND their cartridges as regardless of contribution errors, these are mutually exclusive, gun writing would become largely superfluous.
One thing is for certain, there never has been a writer who knew more than a fraction of that contained within this thread. Colaboration is its finest form. Well done all and most importantly, not done yet.
Sire Woods, Enaa baasee'. You warm the cockles of my cranky heart with your summary appraisal of reality. Some people can't handle the truth, not so at the Square Table. Nice H4198 load for sure. Noted.
Sir Jerry, Don't worry, I will wrap the .45-caliber sabots and shot capsules with paper, so they do not touch the barrel. My paper-patching lessons from Saint Sir Bagwell and you shall not be wasted.
Sir Scotty, You are an inspiration for me to try some muzzleloader projectiles. I will have to google your rifle and projectiles to learn more about them. I am thinking I could load the Paramount .45-cal loads in a .458 WinMag, paper patch over the plastic skirts, and full charge of Blackhorn 209. Here is another varmint bullet for short-range use:
Sir Bob, Good thought on the old TBBC 390-grainer versus your new TBBC 400-grainer: Same momentum, and the new bullet is an honest 400-gr and still betters the advertised MV.
390-gr @ 2345 fps: MO = 130.6 lbsXfps 400-gr @ 2282 fps: MO = 130.4 lbsXfps Those for SAAMI factory loads of moderation.
For some .458 WM+ non-SAAMI handloads loads allowed reasonable MAP and COL to work in any SAAMI-chambered .458 WinMag with 24" barrel: 400-gr @ 2500 fps: MO = 142.9 lbsXfps 450-gr @ 2400 fps: MO = 154.3 lbsXfps 500-gr @ 2300 fps: MO = 164.3 lbsXfps I think I am seeing a pattern here.
In preparation for +4000 fps sabot loads in the .458 WM+, another Jack L wannabe needs to be mentioned, a co-creator of the ".458 MCW Express." Surely his ignorance of the .450 Watts Magnum is feigned, for self-aggrandizement. Author is MacFarland. MCW stands for MacFarland, Corbett and Wells the three gunsmiths collaborating on this. One or more of them must be watching over Mr. MacFarland in the gunsmith shop, identities otherwise concealed to protect the innocent:
That 2800 fps MV with a 250 grain 0.358” bullet is a stretch, even for the 358 NM, and unattainable in a 35 Whelen, regardless of barrel length. Didn’t know they had crack available when that article was written, but the author was obviously on some psychedelic fantasy trip.
The 358 MAN, my wildcat based on a 300 Win Mag case modified along the lines of the Gibbs case model and fired in a 22” barrel will yield an honest 2750 FPS MV with a 250 grain SP bullet, without launching the pieces of the rifle and shooter into a reddish haze. However, the case capacity of the 358 MAN is a bit over 90 grains of water to the body-shoulder junction.
That ancient article was a hoot to read. Wonder if the chronograph cited was a ballistic pendulum.
That 2800 fps MV with a 250 grain 0.358” bullet is a stretch, even for the 358 NM, and unattainable in a 35 Whelen, regardless of barrel length. Didn’t know they had crack available when that article was written, but the author was obviously on some psychedelic fantasy trip.
The 358 MAN, my wildcat based on a 300 Win Mag case modified along the lines of the Gibbs case model and fired in a 22” barrel will yield an honest 2750 FPS MV with a 250 grain SP bullet, without launching the pieces of the rifle and shooter into a reddish haze. However, the case capacity of the 358 MAN is a bit over 90 grains of water to the body-shoulder junction.
That ancient article was a hoot to read. Wonder if the chronograph cited was a ballistic pendulum.
Wrong 2800 FPS is obtainable in the 358 Norma mag. My friend chtongraphs 2800 FPS in his 358 Norma
Using CFE223 I get 2700 FPS with a 250 grain bullet in my 35 Whelen 1885 Highwall
Sounds like experiences vary. Suspect chamber pressures, barrel lengths and bullets make a difference.
I would be curious to know the chamber pressure, regardless of powder, to get a 250 grain bullet to 2700 FPS with a 35 Whelen or 2800 fps in a 358 NM case. North of 70K psi I suspect.
Physics of volume:pressure and potential:kinetic energy conversions are stubborn things.
Using CFE223 I get 2700 FPS with a 250 grain bullet in my 35 Whelen 1885 Highwall
Sounds like experiences vary. Suspect chamber pressures, barrel lengths and bullets make a difference.
I would be curious to know the chamber pressure, regardless of powder, to get a 250 grain bullet to 2700 FPS with a 35 Whelen or 2800 fps in a 358 NM case. North of 70K psi I suspect.
Physics of volume:pressure and potential:kinetic energy conversions are stubborn things.
My load of CFE223 behind a 250 grain bullet pressure tested at 58,000 PSI below the SAAMI max average pressure
Lessee if this is legible, H. E. MacFARLAND's wildcat is featured, bless his heart:
Karl Bosselmann concluded that he needed a faster twist than 1:14" for the 220-gr.308/.458 sabot load from his Ruger No. 1 .458 WinMag. Since it is easy to do +3000 fps with a 250-gr monometal GMX bullet in a .458 WinMag, maybe the 250-gr.358/.458 sabot load could work in a 1:14" twist .458 WinMag. I also have a 1:10" twist. Maybe AA-5744 full-case load, or good ol' H4198, either one might work, both so good with the GMX 250-grainer. April Fool's day is coming and maybe I will have shooting range access by then.
Sir Scotty A 5.5-pound hammerless, waterproof muzzle loader for Blackhorn 209 or H4198 up to 45,000 psi with, with 1:18" twist, for 300-grain bullet is a winner for sure.
Interesting implications for any .45-caliber rifle work, might find application in turning any .458 WinMag into a muzzleloader when the zombie apocalypse or other chaos comes and make-do must make-do.
IIRC, Woodman Arms offer a "full bore" option or whatever they called it, with cut rifling instead of the usual McGowen button rifling ? I assume this is for non-sabot, non-Power Belt, jacketed bullet that obturates into the rifling ? How is that bore & groove different. What kind of fitting of bullet to rifling did you have to do to get such great results ?
I am stuck on the .45-cal CVA Paramount but might be able to adapt some of your techniques to that.
I remember an article on how it was difficult to get cast bullets to shoot accurately in the 458. Then I read strong replies from shooters on how that’s not so. I’m probably too old to go to Africa and I have no “need” for a 458. But if I buy one, cast bullets is what I’d have in mind.
What’s your favorite cast bullet loads in the 458?
...I have no “need” for a 458. But if I buy one, cast bullets is what I’d have in mind.
What’s your favorite cast bullet loads in the 458?
I really hope that "needing" a rifle never becomes a requirement for buying a new one because that will throw my entire acquisition strategy into disarray.
I'm a new convert to the 458 WM having been intrigued by the enthusiasm of some of the other poster's love for this particular cartridge. This thread has been an invaluable resource that really could be condensed into a small book on the topic. But sometimes it can be a bit unwieldy to locate particular information. As a computer nerd, I usually go to Google & drop in a search like the one below:
site:www.24hourcampfire.com "The Great 458 Winchester" "cast bullets"
This will return the 2,040 times that "cast bullets" were mentioned in this thread with the top 49 results on the first page. Any phrases in double quotes has to appear on the page so sometimes I use it to find a post by a particular person. When I open the first link, I hit <Ctrl><F> to find that phrase. Whenever I open another link to go to a new page / post, I can always hit the <F3> shortcut key to toggle through every mention of that phrase on the new page without having to type anything in. It will just repeat the previous search. Doing something like this, allows me to locate specific items quickly and jump through thousands of posts focusing only on the topic I'm researching.
I don't know if anyone will find this useful or not, but if it helps at least one person, then I thought it was worth a mention. For some people, tricks like these just makes things more confusing. As someone who writes code all day, I have a tendency to be very keyboard-centric and efficient about searching for things. Since I was unable to answer Bugger's question directly, I thought I would share how I've been sifting through the copious information here.
On a side note, while surfing around earlier this weekend, I stumbled across this gem below from Gary Larson and The Far Side. My first thought was "Hey! It's Sir Ron putting a Shock Hammer to good use". I've never met any of the Knights of the Square Table but this is kind of what I visualize some of them are like based on their posts.
...I have no “need” for a 458. But if I buy one, cast bullets is what I’d have in mind.
What’s your favorite cast bullet loads in the 458?
I really hope that "needing" a rifle never becomes a requirement for buying a new one because that will throw my entire acquisition strategy into disarray.
I'm a new convert to the 458 WM having been intrigued by the enthusiasm of some of the other poster's love for this particular cartridge. This thread has been an invaluable resource that really could be condensed into a small book on the topic. But sometimes it can be a bit unwieldy to locate particular information. As a computer nerd, I usually go to Google & drop in a search like the one below:
site:www.24hourcampfire.com "The Great 458 Winchester" "cast bullets"
This will return the 2,040 times that "cast bullets" were mentioned in this thread with the top 49 results on the first page. Any phrases in double quotes has to appear on the page so sometimes I use it to find a post by a particular person. When I open the first link, I hit <Ctrl><F> to find that phrase. Whenever I open another link to go to a new page / post, I can always hit the <F3> shortcut key to toggle through every mention of that phrase on the new page without having to type anything in. It will just repeat the previous search. Doing something like this, allows me to locate specific items quickly and jump through thousands of posts focusing only on the topic I'm researching.
I don't know if anyone will find this useful or not, but if it helps at least one person, then I thought it was worth a mention. For some people, tricks like these just makes things more confusing. As someone who writes code all day, I have a tendency to be very keyboard-centric and efficient about searching for things. Since I was unable to answer Bugger's question directly, I thought I would share how I've been sifting through the copious information here.
On a side note, while surfing around earlier this weekend, I stumbled across this gem below from Gary Larson and The Far Side. My first thought was "Hey! It's Sir Ron putting a Shock Hammer to good use". I've never met any of the Knights of the Square Table but this is kind of what I visualize some of them are like based on their posts.
you hit it out of the park with that likeness of RC .it fits him to a tee
I haven’t tried them in a 458, but for a small game load instead of Ganyana’s round ball load a lightweight SWC in 458 might be another option. I have a CBE mould designated 458260. I think it was originally designed for an obscure English BP Express cartridge. I bought it years ago to make plinking loads for a 45/70. It’s a PB SWC style design that would likely be more accurate and easier to load than a round ball.
CBE no longer list that mould but I’m sure something similar could be had from Accurate in the US. Something like an upsized version of Keith’s 452424 with a diameter of 0.462/3 out the mould would be the ticket.
Hah ! Great work from Knights of the Square Table !
About any cast bullet will work well in the .458 WinMag with smokeless if it is sized to .461" in hard alloy. PC-paint and smokeless is the modern version of paper-patch and BP. If using paper-patched and BP in the .458 WinMag, you need to patch up to groove size (0.458" -0.459") instead of bore size (0.450").
If you go through this thread you will see I learned a lot by trial and error. When you push a really hard cast bullet (my 25 BHN alloy that is bigger than 0.462" diameter) through a 0.460" base-pusher sizer, it springs back to 0.461". PC paint can add about 0.001" diameter per coat. PC painted hardcast bullets size nicely, with or without lube. etc., etc.
If stuck with using .459" diameter store-bought cast bullets, grease-lubed, meant for .45-70 (SAAMI minimum groove for .45-70 Gov't. is 0.456") they will work fairly well if you keep velocities below 1400 fps.
Properly sized and properly hard bullets with gas checks and PC paint are good to 2200 fps at least, with excellent accuracy in the .458 WinMag with smokeless powders.
I have been shooting cast for a long time. Actually as long as I’ve shot jacketed. I don’t remember which was first. But I’ve never been tempted to use paint instead of lube. I know some really like it.
My brother (deceased) used to shoot cast bullets in excess of 2,000 fps with heat treated wheel weights, gc’s, and lube. He won cast bullet match’s with that combination.
I’ve not tried to push past 1,600 fps. The 45’s I have are either lever or falling block. I’m thinking a good bolt action in 45 might be the thing I “need”. The only common bolt action 45 is the 458, I believe.
Eastwood Ford Light Blue powder-coat paint, hard alloy pushed through 0.460" sizer makes a 0.461" diameter bullet, optimal in 0.458" to .459" groove diameter .458 WinMag. Two very accurate loads, PC painted and pushed through a 0.460" sizer (Lee or CH4D), the base pusher rod installs the gas check with the easy sizing pass, no lube except the powder-coat paint. Scope is zeroed for the heavy bullet at 100 yards, and then the lighter bullet is dead-on at 200 yards.
That light bullet can be loaded to 2500 fps but is not as accurate, it strings vertically, but does not lead the barrel, PC paint and gas check foul very little. Good cheap bullet for practice with the feel of 400-gr and 404-gr solid and soft at 2500 fps.
From page 2:
From page 5: Harbor Freight Red powder-coat paint, hard alloy PC-painted and pushed through 0.460" sizer makes a most accurate 0.461"-diameter boolitt for the SAAMI .458 WinMag.
I have many more boolitts and loads yet to be tried, and more trial with favorites need doing. Going to the range on April Fools' Day. Cheers for Saint Patricks Day today !
As Sir Ron has posted, a FN cast bullet properly sized to fill the grooves works very well in the magnificent 458 WM. If you read the fine print in Ron’s posts you will see he uses foam rod material to hold the powder column up against the primer. I use Dacron for the same purpose and it does make a difference in my rifle. I use aa2015 and imr 4759 and my 485 grain FN runs between 1750 and 1950. I also use a softer alloy 12-15 bhn without problems. I don’t know if they expand in deer because I can’t catch one inside a deer…. They do expand inside a 200 pound tub of protein supplement! An excellent test medium that you can leave in the woods for the deer after your done with it. I have a couple hundred powder coated and some aa2460 I’m going to try this year to run the velocity up a bit. No need to but just for fun. Good shooting to you sir! F01
Sir Dennis, Very good plan. The 480-grainer is the best weight for the entire spectrum of Ballistics with which to Bagwell, like Saint Sir Bill Bagwell did with his .45-70 Sharps. From the Whitworth rifle of the 1850's to the .450 "S Rigby" Nitro Express standard setter for excellence, all same 480-gr weight. If you cannot do 450 NE ballistics with your current 485-gr bullet when PC-painted, I will be surprised. I have a 485-grainer yet to be tried that will be gas-checked, hardcast, and PC-painted. I think 2150 to 2200 fps with 485-grainer will be the perfect modus operandi. Let us call that the Nitro Express Modus Operandi: NEMO
I move that The Square Table consider a classification of cast bullet loads, .458 Winchester Magnum Cast Bullet Modi Operandi, with this provisional suggestion, based on a 23" to 25" barrel length (average 24"), any COL, short or long:
Light Express: 400-480 grain bullet at 1800 to 2200 fps: LEMO Nitro Express: 480-500 grain bullet at 2150-2200 fps: NEMO Heavy Express: 500-600 grain bullet at 2150-2200 fps: HEMO Bullseye Express: Any bullet weight at any velocity that shoots accurately, and is not covered by other MO brackets: BEMO
That should cover everything.
Do I hear a second of the motion ?
As an example, here is a BEMO load: Bullseye Express
Scope was adjusted to raise POI and then a 3-shot group at 100 yards was only 0.16" low. With only a few rounds of loaded ammo left, the final 3-shot group at 200 yards:
Here is the HEMO (Heavy Express) barely qualifying on the velocity bracket but easily beats that with more powder added:
Same bullet at increasing powder charge of AA-2460 on a different day and the 3.485" COL was increased to 3.600" COL for higher MV with more powder, AA-2460 was not compressed, H4895 was compressed slightly:
I need to look for that 75-grain charge target, to see why I thought it was good, at 2190 fps instrumental velocity from a 25" Shilen barrel. I found it. It was only a 50-yard target for that chrono session and the 3-shot group was 1.91 MOA (correct MOA, calculated for 50 yards)
544-gr at 2137 fps instrumental, 3.485" COL, 72.0 gr AA-2460: 1.04 MOA 3-shot, 100-yards, 25" barrel
543-gr at 2190 fps instrumental, 3.600" COL, 75.0 gr AA-2460: 1.91 MOA 3-shot, 50-yards, same 25" barrel.
Your barrel harmonics may be different, your mileage may vary, etc.
So, I have neglected to do a NEMO (Nitro Express Modus Operandi) load with cast bullets: 480-500 grains at 2150 to 2200 fps Shame. Should be easy to do.
Sir Dennis seconds the motion that The Square Table consider a classification of cast bullet loads, .458 Winchester Magnum Cast Bullet Modi Operandi, with this provisional suggestion, based on a 23" to 25" barrel length (average 24"), any COL, short or long:
Light Express: 400-480 grain bullet at 1800 to 2200 fps: LEMO Nitro Express: 480-500 grain bullet at 2150-2200 fps: NEMO Heavy Express: 500-600 grain bullet at 2150-2200 fps: HEMO Bullseye Express: Any bullet weight at any velocity that shoots accurately, and is not covered by other MO brackets: BEMO
That is good enough for Four Five Eight Winchester Magnus Rex. By Magnus Rex decree, consider it considered and adopted by the Square Table.
Nitro Express (NEMO) cast bullet loads coming up.
BENCHMARK would be a good benchmark for removing temperature considerations. AA-2460 as suggested by Sir Dennis for the 485-grainer, would be a lower pressure load for same velocity. H4895 could be used for any of the four classes of cast bullet loads. So many good powders for the .458 WinMag that it boggles the mind ...
Good Morning Sir Ron and the Knights of the Square Table!
I have a couple of loads for the Bullseye Express category, since all of my work has been on the low side. Sorry - don't have the nice pictures that Ron usually includes
All loads were fired from my recently acquired Ruger M77 Tang Safety 458WM with a 24" barrel.
415gr RNFP Powder Coated Plain Base - 20gr Unique - 1260fps avg. Mold/origin is unknown, found these in a box of my Dad's, powder coated them and ran them through a .460 Lee sizer.
Enaa baasee' Sir Thomas. Nice deer-killing ballistics for sure. Turning the mighty .458 WinMag into a Springfield Trapdoor .45-70 Gov't. equivalent, Bullseye Express, is a great thing to do. Stay tuned for my next attempt.
That will be the Lee 459-405 Hollow Base FN cast in Linotype, PC-painted and sized with same .460" Lee sizer. It comes out at only 375 grains. Trying that with 30 grains AA-5744 and hoping for about 1400 fps. Even if it does not expand on a deer, it will make a bloody big enough hole to do the job, as Sir Dennis alluded.
Trying another snake shot load too, with those shot capsules. Just one capsule, filled with No. 9 shot. 18 grains of Blue Dot.
And a squirrel load with 145-gr lead ball PC-painted up to 0.460" diameter, powered by 12 grains of Trail Boss.
Then I am chasing the Nitro Express bracket with six different bullets, five of them in BHN-25 alloy, plus one in soft, 20:1 alloy. Two plain-based, four gas-checked, all PC-painted.
Five shots each bullet, all with same powder charge: 72.0 grains AA-2460. Bullet weights from 468 grains to 494 grains. COLs from 3.250" to 3.395". Loading ratios from 95% to 105% net fill, no drop tube, just mild compression of the loose powder on three of the six loads.
With that much horse crap in the corral, I am bound to find a pony fit to ride.
So we see that when a 410 Ga shot cup wad is used in the proper orientation, with the maximum recommended weight of shot for that wad, per manufacturer, the 2.5" brass case is longer than really necessary. One still has to add some filler wadding under the shot cup. The wasted space is twice as much if using 2.8" brass cases. More trouble with the .458 Lott, bless its heart. Once again the .458 Lott is the .458 Loser in this horse race.
I shall hie me to the open range with that Express Pony, soon as I can lasso him out of the corral. It's getting kind of deep in there.
Good doings Gents, you all keep popping those primers burning powder and sending copper/lead downrange! i'm on the IRL for awhile, will be back to blasting soon ; ]
Eagerly awaiting your findings Sir Ron! I know the rifling in my Taurus Judge really spreads a .410 shell with #8s, and that's with a 3 inch barrel! No telling what a 20-24" spin cycle will do!
Any of those Bullseye loads will work just fine on deer as well. F01
Thanks Fury, just trying to get a +P+ equivalent of a factory Hornady LeverEvolution 45/70 load. It clocks about 1700fps out of my 22" barrel Marlin 1895. That FlexTip bullet should expand nicely going 200fps faster
Good doings Gents, you all keep popping those primers burning powder and sending copper/lead downrange! i'm on the IRL for awhile, will be back to blasting soon ; ]
Sir Jerry, Your forbearance of plastic in the bore is appreciated, regarding the 410 Ga shot cup wads, both backwards and forwards, as well as the plastic shot capsules. Please be as gracious when we get to the 45-cal-to-35-cal muzzle loader sabot loads, and plastic skirted "Power Belt" softies with Blackhorn 209 in the .458 WinMag. Could be the start of equipping .458 WinMag Gemmer rifles with a ramrod, and making one brass case last forever. Be well.
Eagerly awaiting your findings Sir Ron! I know the rifling in my Taurus Judge really spreads a .410 shell with #8s, and that's with a 3 inch barrel! No telling what a 20-24" spin cycle will do!
Sir Thomas, Here's hoping that the .458 WinMag bore is loser than the .45LC/410 Judge and the shot cups and capsules will do some skidding on the rifling and not as much spinning. The fact that Ganyana tried 2 shot capsules in a single load and one of them made a .45-cal hole in the target is worrisome.
I typo-ed above, meant to say the .458 WinMag bore is hopefully "LOOSER" (not "loser") than the .45LC.
The NEMO trial conclusion: 72.0 grains of AA-2460 is too much for a "480-ish" grain bullet.
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The pointy NOE HTC 459-500 plain base, 494 gr./.461", with PC paint, shot into a group about the size of my hat at 50 yards. It must be intended for subsonic use. The long and pointy AM 46-485Z was worse than the shorter FN version AM 46-485N. Too shameful to show. None as good as the AM 46-410M (SOCOM) has been so far, and it was best at about 2150 fps, and it can be fired at 2566 fps MV into a vertically strung 2-MOA 3-shot "group" at 100 yards. Use same powder charge as used with the 404-gr Shock Hammer. Good for Shock Hammer practice loads to save dollars.
Before dirtying the barrel with lead shot, I did try the Lee Hollow base (# 459-405-HB) and the single lead ball load, both PC-painted:
The load for the round ball and the snake shot might be better in the .458 Lott. That is the only possible reason I can think of for keeping a .458 Lott if you have a .458 WinMag.
Interesting Sir Ron. The pointy cast have to be perfect and pressed into the rifling straight to avoid problems is the general take on that form. I believe big flat nosed and short with a leading edge shoulder that takes command of the bullet the instant it enters the rifling is “best.” A RN with a good leading shoulder can work well too but I think the FN has an edge in the barrel and in game of course. I sure appreciate the work and the write up. I’ll start below 70 grains of 2460 for sure. F01
Interesting Sir Ron. The pointy cast have to be perfect and pressed into the rifling straight to avoid problems is the general take on that form. I believe big flat nosed and short with a leading edge shoulder that takes command of the bullet the instant it enters the rifling is “best.” A RN with a good leading shoulder can work well too but I think the FN has an edge in the barrel and in game of course. I sure appreciate the work and the write up. I’ll start below 70 grains of 2460 for sure. F01
Amen, Sir Dennis.
Now a correction on previous:
I typo-ed the weights of the two Accurate Molds bullets, mixing up their bare, naked weights, as-cast for the properly painted and gas-checked weights. Corrected in the average weight below and in the bullet picture, which might be a little more accurate now:
To cut down on my confusion, it is now down to 2 bullets only, and the powder charge is reduced to 70.0 grains of AA-2460 for both.
Below are the specs on both bullets from Accurate Molds:
Approximate weight and linear dimensions are supposed to be what you get with clip-on wheel weight alloy. My BHN25 alloy casts bigger and lighter. The average bullet weight to be tried with same powder charge is now = 484.5 grains That ought to pass for Nitro Express Modus Operandi.
... and that is the "PH" bullet made famous by Saint Sir Bagwell. But it is several thou fatter than the "PH" so it will be sizable to .461" after PC paint of BHN25 alloy. It is accurate and a killer as a greaser in wheel weight alloy with the .45-70 Sharps 1874 from Shiloh. Hardcast for .458 WinMag and loaded long, and light, at about 450 grains in BHN25. EET WEEL KEEL. EET WEEL BAGWELL.
BHN25 and PC paint seems to make the plain base need no gas check, even at NE velocities. With that thought, maybe this whacky boolitt will come out close to 480 grains in BHN25, no gas check to be added, and that slight boat tail should be fun:
Note the major diameter is 0.464" !!! That will be easily sizable to 0.461" in WW alloy. I might have to lube the PC-painted BHN casting to avoid elbow grease in sizing the hardcast to .461" Also will produce a tiny length of drive band at the sloping base of the nose, leading into the leade of the .458 WinMag.
70 grains of AA-2460 with the 478-grainer and 491-grainer is next for the NEMO trial. Leave the gas check off of the 491-grainer and it will be about 482 grains. Exactly 480-grain average for those two bullets then. Rebated plain base with PC paint versus gas check. Heh-heh-heh.
Stormy weather. Us "farm boys" get to play when its storming. Ordered that Accurate Molds mould and dithered this up:
I pulled one of those three shots, blame me, not the PH.
My new mould is going to be a brass 2-cavity with the two designs in one mould, "Lyman inspired" AM 46-467L and "whacky" AM 46-502D. That whacky AM 46-502D might qualify for Nitro Express Modus Operandi if cast in lighter BHN25 instead of WW.
457121 Lyman Ph bullet; have you tried two coats of powder coat to size it up? Not that the paper patched is not just fine as you loaded it. Thanks for the work and write up Sir! F01
Good stuff Men, im studying a 1956 Model 70 Super Grade in the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum, the rifle is a Doc Quincy's, hope it passes the autopsy! ; ]
Sir Dennis, Yep tried two coats, not enough diameter even with the harder/lighter/bigger-diameter alloy. So, I am saving the Lyman PH for 50:50 Pb/WW or 20:1 Pb/Sn and the smack of duplexed BP on its hind end.
However, a double coat of PC paint might replace the paper patch, then I don't have to size them way down to .452" before patching them up to .459". Sizing down more than 0.003" is supposed to be a no-no, but I got by, with the paper patch smoothing things out.
Might be able to get by with the soft lead alloys PC-paint-patched, greased in the grooves and smacked with duplexed BP and a grease cookie ? Even if the soft alloy was painted up to only a .458" sizing, that might obturate in a .458 WinMag with .459" grooves. But won't work with smokeless ...
6-week lead time on the Accurate Molds order, according to their web site. Will see.
If need be, a custom mould for a Lyman-PH-inspired bullet that has the base band lengthened enough to cast in BHN25 at 480 grains weight sure would be nice. Should be no more than 0.1" longer bullet overall. Will see how the AM 46-467L casts in BHN25 for diameter and weight, and go from there. Will commence to calculating. Yahoo.
Good stuff Men, im studying a 1956 Model 70 Super Grade in the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum, the rifle is a Doc Quincy's, hope it passes the autopsy! ; ]
Sir Jerry, The first-year "African" is the Holy Cow ! Trivia I don't know: How many did they make that first year ? 1226 made from 1956 through 1963. Please send photos ! Could be a pretty penny for that one.
From the Hammer Bullets web site, this youtube video. Mr. OutdoorEdventure has a great method of trapping a 203-gr/.358 Shock Hammer from a .358 WCF AR-10, at +2400 fps MV. Modeling clay in a plastic jar with a piece of leather glove at entry and a box of sand behind the clay:
SLO MO of bullet impact, bullet base and most of shrapnel retrieved
That was a daisy from 1956 (SN: 380868), priced at $9,999.00 and now item is out of stock. How many were "in stock" to start with ? Heh-heh-heh.
Highly collectible since it did not undergo the factory recall to replace the fancy walnut with a straighter grained (stronger) walnut and have a secondary recoil lug added to barrel. Lots of split stocks in the first run. Learning curve for WRAC.
The single-steel-crossbolted, early 1956, stock got replaced with a stock having two Bakelite plugs ! Plastic ! I believe the learning curve eventually took WRAC to two steel crossbolts ...
Some small images in natural sunlight showing the delicate beauty a little better, of 380868, Miss 1956:
Description copied and pasted from pre64win.com:
This is a Winchester model 70 African rifle chambered in the powerful .458 Winchester magnum cartridge. It was produced in 1956, the first year for the cartridge, the African style rifle, and the short magnum receiver.
The .458 Winchester Magnum cartridge was introduced in 1956 and was the first of a series of proprietary Winchester magnum cartridges Winchester introduced for the model 70. The .458 was followed by the .338 Win Mag, .264 Win Mag and .300 Win Mag. These cartridges were based on the H&H magnum cartridge, but were shortened to the same overall length as the .30-06 class of cartridges so they would work in the standard length model 70 action, with minimal modifications. Each of these rifles was given a new and name. The .300 WM and .338 WM were called "Alaskan". The .254 WM was called "Westerner". And the .458 WM was placed in a class of its own. Only produced in the Super Grade style, and embellished with several unique high-end features, the .458 WM was designated as the "African". In addition to the unique new magnum chambering, the African also had a 25" #2 barrel with a front sling swivel base attached directly to the barrel, and special sights, and was stocked in superior grade walnut with more figure than any other model 70 rifle. Only 1,226 African rifles were produced, making this the third rarest chambering for the model 70, with only the .300 Savage and .35 Remington being produced in fewer numbers.
This particular rifle possesses certain features which are present on only a few of the earliest African rifles. Specifically:
This rifle lacks the secondary barrel-mounted recoil block which was added in late 1956. This rifle has the extra fancy walnut stock and a single steel cross-bolt. Both of these features only appeared on the earliest African rifles, and most of these were later re-stocked into the later style stocks as a result of a recall* by Winchester.
*The recall of early African rifles: In mid 1956, with some African rifle owners complaining of cracks appearing in some stocks, Winchester issued a recall of all .458 African rifles. In the recall, Winchester replaced the fancy walnut stock with a single steel crossbolt with a more traditional straight grain American walnut stock, fitted with 2 Bakelite dowels for cross-bolts.
As a result of Winchester's recall of the earl African rifles, very few retain the early, highly figured stocks with the single steel cross-bolt.
The metal on this rifle grades in NRA very good to excellent condition with no noted wear or defects. The bluing grades at 95% with a few light scratches on the bolt handle but no other notable defects. There is almost no edge wear, and the bluing is dark and even. The bolt body, extractor, and magazine follower are all correctly jeweled.
The bore of the 25" barrel is in excellent condition with no visible wear and only very minor evidence of use. We rate this bore a 9 out of 10 under borescope examination.
The Monte Carlo stock is beautifully figured and is in near perfect condition following restoration in our shop. There was a small split in the inletting bridge between the trigger and the magazine box, which has been repaired. The original recoil pad is in very good condition. The original checkering is clean and crisp.
Except as noted above, there are no modifications or defects noted for this rifle. All parts and finishes appear to be correct for the .458 Win and original to the rifle. The bolt is correct and serial number matched to the receiver.
Good stuff Men, im studying a 1956 Model 70 Super Grade in the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum, the rifle is a Doc Quincy's, hope it passes the autopsy! ; ]
Sir Jerry, The first-year "African" is the Holy Cow ! Trivia I don't know: How many did they make that first year ? 1226 made from 1956 through 1963. Please send photos ! Could be a pretty penny for that one.
Yes Sir, hope it pans out to be a true, good and unaltered specimen with no stock splits/cracks, many thanks for the history lesson Sir Ron.
A very fitting pair, The Mighty 458 Winchester Magnum in the very rifle it was designed for, i can't think of a better setup for Lion and Ele, 404 Hammers at 2500 for the cat and all manner of other plains game, 450gr CEB BBW#13 or 500gr Trophy Bonded solids for Ele, it would be a dream pairing ; ]
And No Sir, if my PH sent the flat nosed expanded solid remains from a 404 Hammer after shedding petals and found against the hide of a 3300LB bull giraffe after double shoulder punch, that bullet at 2500 fps would blow that guys clay bucket and sand box to hell and back.
Double the bullet weight, 100 fps faster, 0.100" larger diameter, it would junk it all.
Good stuff Men, im studying a 1956 Model 70 Super Grade in the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum, the rifle is a Doc Quincy's, hope it passes the autopsy! ; ]
Sir Jerry, The first-year "African" is the Holy Cow ! Trivia I don't know: How many did they make that first year ? 1226 made from 1956 through 1963. Please send photos ! Could be a pretty penny for that one.
Yes Sir, hope it pans out to be a true, good and unaltered specimen with no stock splits/cracks, many thanks for the history lesson Sir Ron.
A very fitting pair, The Mighty 458 Winchester Magnum in the very rifle it was designed for, i can't think of a better setup for Lion and Ele, 404 Hammers at 2500 for the cat and all manner of other plains game, 450gr CEB BBW#13 or 500gr Trophy Bonded solids for Ele, it would be a dream pairing ; ]
And No Sir, if my PH sent the flat nosed expanded solid remains from a 404 Hammer after shedding petals and found against the hide of a 3300LB bull giraffe after double shoulder punch, that bullet at 2500 fps would blow that guys clay bucket and sand box to hell and back.
Double the bullet weight, 100 fps faster, 0.100" larger diameter, it would junk it all.
According to Louis Luttrell over on the WACA site, when he spoke with Roger Rule years ago, Roger sent those records back to a Winchester employee at the time, without making copies and there's no record at the Winchester McCracken Library of the total number of how many, 458 Win. Mag in the model 70 Super Grade, were mfg. in 1936. Not that their not there, they haven't surfaced is all. All of Roger Rule's information was based on these records. The number of 1226 being shipped is correct but as far as the total number that were mfg., well this number could be different.
What I got from Rule was that the "African" did not sell as well as expected for 1956-1957, one key reason being the price tag. It was $295.00 when a Super Grade of lesser caliber offerings was $184.65, and a Standard Rifle sold for $124.45. They made more receivers in 1956 than they needed for the .458 WinMag. So, some 1956 serial numbers ended up in later years assemblies of .458 WinMag, .338 WinMag and .264 WinMag. That surplus of the "short magnum" actions might have facilitated arrival of the Alaskans and Westerners, eh ?
He did tally up some shipping records for the .458 Win. Magnum African:
Then came the pushfeed Post-'63 and all the other makes of .458 WinMag, when any gunsmith could do one on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 or standard M98 ... and all the big makers could too ... and they did, starting about 1956 most likely ! Ammo sales were so brisk that, to keep up with demand, they had to hire Democrat voters now and then at the ammo factory. Big mistake.
A .30-06 and a .458 WM on matching M70 actions of whatever vintage does make a fine combo.
Serial numbers for M70 receiver year produced, above.
They made a few experimental rifles in 1955, had barrel-marking roll stamps for .458 Win. Magnum ordered by Nov. 2, 1955.
A bit of levity for anyone paying attention to the details above, the whacko Lottites were out protesting for their rights to have abortions last week. Was that about keeping the abortion pill OTC ?
Must be the type that wants tampon dispensers in all the men's public restrooms worldwide ! Men can menstruate too don'tcha know, NOT.
Thanks Big B, Sirs Tony and Ron, it'll be a fun rig if the purchase happens, couldn't help but hunt/shoot it, even if it doesn't have barrel lug, going to be a careful subject, if it has no splits or cracks, don't want to damage it, but, as I've told Sir Ron, there's only one "Safe" Queen here, and she wears lipstick and dresses ; ]
Studying and blade following that back black collar line of pink shirt in first pic, coming in hard with 11.25" bladed Bagwell Damascus Bowie from right and exiting left would relieve that idiot of all that ails it, but, someone would have to happen by with a good snow shovel and scoop up 12lbs of stupid rolling about in the street!
Well, you know whenever a Lottite hears that the .458 Lott is an abortion of the .450 Watts Magnum, they get all huffy and go protest for abortion rights.
Earliest .458 Winchester Magnum rifle image that I know of was on a presentation of the WRAC engineering department no doubt to impress admin and bean counters to keep the project alive:
The mention of ".458 Watts" reminds me of Richard Harland, mainly because he is the only author that I have seen use the term ".458 Watts." It is in his book NDLOVU, wherein he writes an honest account of the .458 Winchester Magnum, backed by his immense experience with it in elephant hunting. Gotta review that.
Just like a blind hog finding an acorn now and then, a RNFMJ solid kills an elephant or buffalo now and then. Might not have recovered four out of four solids from four dead critters if they had been FN brass solids.
The One-Bolt African looks to have the barrel tie-down bolster integral to barrel and the screw and escutcheon in the forearm to mate.
Seems a recoil "plate" like a reversed Ruger RSM contraption (but smaller and simpler) could be added to the African. The bolster and plate that hooks over it is the only recoil lug on a Ruger RSM.
Then add the hidden allthread cross bolt between magazine and trigger wells instead of the visible second cross bolt. Pillar bed and full contact glass from tang to barrel bolster.
All work wood be to strengthen stock and invisible externally. Sure wood be a lot classier than a Two-Bolt African with Bakelite plugs.
Convert currency US$ 44.23 Shipping From United Kingdom to U.S.A.
I read the books of John Hunter from a Morehead, KY grade school library when I was in the fifth grade and the world was sane. It will be a miracle to find NDLOVU at a library nowadays, unless it is in your own personal library. Too many Democrat librarians nowadays. I have it on good authority that the creature with man boobs and profane hat on the previous page was a GS-13 at the Library of Congress, curating the vast collection of LGBTQ+ books there.
Opening paragraph of Appendix I of NDLOVU by Richard Harland:
What he is saying, in the first sentence, is that hearing the fake news about the .458 Winchester Magnum from the Lottites is getting boring. In the very next two sentences he acknowledges that the .450 Watts Magnum of James Watts was conceived in 1947 and aborted by Jack Lott in 1971. Then the act of stolen valor was facilitated by Art Alphin who sold the Zimbabwe Game Department a load of bad .458 WM ammo. But I elaborate. Tricky Art was lobbying to get the .458 Lott into SAAMI, the faulty final design of which was no doubt his brain fart, straight out of A-Square. Sabotaging the .458 WM would be good for his business. Was Art a Democrat ?
...from another web site "I'm gonna' respond in a way I trust no one gets his/her panties in a wad.
First of all, I have had the opportunity to shoot a "goodly" number elephant on control. I've killed elephant utilizing the following cartridges (Note: should've been calibers. Author noted 4/24) .416 Taylor, .458WM, .450 Rigby, and .505 Gibbs. The Taylor and WM are M-70's, the Rigby was a Ruger RSM, and the Gibbs was Granite Mountain Arms Conventional wisdom would almost certainly have the Gibbs as the forerunner "best in class" for dealing with elephant.
Indeed , the Gibbs is all it's touted to be. If I were a p/h (and could afford one) the Gibbs would be my preferred back up rifle. The .450 Rigby is what the Lott should have been. You know, 2450fps as opposed to 2250fps. More velocity is better...right? HA!
The .458WM will always have its nay sayers. Blah, blah, blah.
The .416 Taylor, or any 40cal is far and away better than the .375H&H. Unless you're Harry Manners.
All the elephant I shot with these four calibers were killed. Obviously, the ones brain shot dropped in their tracks. Body shots to the heart/lungs, most didn't run more than 50-60 yds before succumbing. After evaluating the type shooting in which I was involve, any one of the calibers were adequate to achieve the end result.
The amount of empirical experience I have is limited by the total number I have successfully shot/killed. (If you're interested in the number, well, it is 12% of the total John Buhmiller shot.)
Regardless of graphs, and old history, and SD, and BC and fps...I chose the "Worthless, underpowered, should have been, etc, etc." .458Winchester Magnum. I have never felt under gunned.
My rifle is a Winchester M-70 with a 24" barrel. Loads are 500gr solids @ 2185fps.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
I wrote this for another site a couple of years ago and I thought it would read well on the Fire.
Sir Ele Hunter, Enaa baasee'. Perfect rifle and load for ele. Federal publishes load data showing an easy 2200 fps with their 500-gr TBSS, satisfying SAAMI with COL 3.340" and MAP of 60,000 psi from a 24" barreled .458 WinMag. My Ruger #1 with 24" barrel might exceed that COL and pressure by a little bit, and it did 2408 fps MV by LabRadar, with just 83.0 grains of AA-2460 at COL of 3.550", crimped on the bottom cannelure of the 500-gr TBSS.
John Buhmiller was the man who created the .460 Weatherby before Roy Weatherby commercialized it. He did the .510/460 Weatherby before Art Alphin claimed it as the .500 A-Square, etc., etc. Even John Buhmiller with his big tally of original wildcats as well as elephant culls, even he carried a .458 WinMag as backup rifle, and killed more game with it than with any other cartridge.
Defective powders that clumped in the sabotaged factory ammo of yore would have clumped in any other cartridge so abused.
...I, by chance, met John Buhmiller in 1973 two years prior to his death. I was in Kalispell visiting a friend and was invited to meet a retired local gun maker. I had no idea who this gentleman was.
I mostly was a listening participant to the conversation. I do remember Mr. Buhmiller mentioning how flat nosed bullets would penetrate better than conventional round nose bullets. he also related a story how he was shooting buffalo and had two bulls standing side by side. He said the first bull dropped at the shot, and the second ran a few yards and also fell over. I have no recollection of what rifle, or caliber he was shooting at the time.
I recall his wife was growing tomatoes, and she was using discarded rifle barrels as tomato stakes. Obviously, some of the Buhmiller barrels didn't measure up!
Hunting in Africa was at that time was only a dream and I had no knowledge of big bore rifles/bullets. Pity I couldn't appreciate "Uncle John's" wisdom.
Oom Jannie sold some barrels to an African getting his smithing done in deepest darkest. One thing led to another and he got invited to do some culling, and Ooom Jannie accepted the invitation, returning many times after that.
Sir Richard Harland's summary at the end of Appendix I of NDLOVU:
AA-2460 and AA-2230 were doing well 20 years ago. They now have improved temperature stability (since 2016) and are still top performers. That Alliant Power Pro series of powders works quite well too. Anything that will goose a .223 Rem/5.56 Nato will gander a .458 WM. The development lately of lots more great choices in powders is a happy coincidence/synchronicity/God wink for the King of Cartridges.
Damn good load data Sir Ron, Thanks, iirc i did get 2300 fps with the 500gr Partition in my old SAAMI spec FN Browning with AA-2460 at 3.340 inch, man that's a blaster of a hard hitting load, shows what's lying on the table and available to all with the Mighty 458 WM, even at SAAMI length.
Good stuff Men, im studying a 1956 Model 70 Super Grade in the mighty 458 Winchester Magnum, the rifle is a Doc Quincy's, hope it passes the autopsy! ; ]
This last week I was sailing out in the Atlantic & off the grid a bit so now I'm catching up on emails, this thread, Sir Bob's latest blog post & perusing auctions. It was an interesting read on the previous page where Sir Ron talked about the 1956 African & the recalled stocks. It was like déjà vu when I wandered by the RIA website shortly thereafter & saw one with a single crossbolt coming up for auction next month. I wonder how accurate that estimated price is (Click Here!):
Way back on page 190 of this thread we were discussing the custom guns that were auctioned at the SCI conventions back in the 1980's. The .375 H&H Rhino Rifle that sold for $43,500 was made by Champlin Arms in Enid, OK. I noticed in that same RIA auction they had a less fancier & more affordable version of that rifle but it was chambered in a much better caliber this time (Click Here!):
Enaa baasee'. You have brought gravitas . That One-Bolt 1956 African surely is mis-under-estimated for price. Has the factory box that is "fine" just like the rifle is. Crazy !
In two days from now (Saturday, April 13/24), Part 1 of a 2 part series, is titled: "Why I Still Promote the .458 Winchester Magnum". It contains a bit of personal history with three of 'em, and handloads, in particular from the CZ 550 and my current Ruger No.1H; in case anyone is interested.
Thanks Sir Ron for all of the recent work related to those historic books, along with your much appreciated comments.
Very nice odonata, you should be bidding on that pre-64 458 with credit card in hand! ; ]
Great find.
Seems one of old guys kids may kill the sell on the pre-64 458 i have been looking at, no way to ethically approach a situation about a man's guns and his kids. oh well, i have always believed things happen for a reason, and, if you have to force it, it's not meant to be.
Sir Jerry, I've been in you're position more times than I usually mention as ethically all we can do is the right thing, of course. I've had the kid's contact me down the road and we've worked a few things out to satisfy everyone just because I didn't upset the apple, cart so to speak. We can't and won't get in between on those things, as it's all about doing what's right as I know you are. You never know how things work out and I know that you consider yourself lucky to have viewed a fine specimen as you did.
Very nice odonata, you should be bidding on that pre-64 458 with credit card in hand! ; ]
Great find.
I'm very fond of my Winchester Model 70 Safari Express in 375 H&H. This particular auction had fifty-one Model 70's to choose from many of them desirable pre-64. They even had several of the rare .35 Remington & .300 Savages that Sir Ron mentioned in his early post (pictured below).
So it's at times like these all I can do is curse my crappy right eye & left-handed shooting as I sigh wistfully at all of these really nice right-handed rifles that are pretty much useless to me. Who wants a stupid 1957 Super Grade in 7mm Mauser anyway? Not me!!!
...looking through my files, I had a single x-bolt M-70 African, S/N 365661. I purchased this rifle and a S/G .257 Roberts for the princely sum of $2500. The date was 10 Apr 1985. My original plan was to keep the African and sell the Roberts.
A year later I was attending a gun show in CO and a fellow asked me if I had a pre'64 M-70 .458 African rifle, and I said I did. I had brought the rifle with me and had it in a gun bag under my table. This fellow asked if he could examine the rifle, and I retrieved said rifle and removed it from the bag. The fellow examined it from stem to stern, and asked if I was interested in selling it. Well, at the time I had no plans to part with my third rarest caliber M-70 and picked a number I thought would be out of reach, so I said, "Yeah, I'd have to have $3500 for it" thinking my "buyer" would flinch and return the rifle to the table. NOPE! He produced thirty-five old dead presidents and walked off with my African.
That was 1986. In the years since, I've owned four other .458 Africans, but only one had the single x-bolt. Sometimes it's best to keep one's mouth shut.
Sir Ron: When I began hand loading the .458WM, the bullet choices were limited, and dealing with the short case length, I had to prioritize case capacity vs velocity. Based on the information and components which were available at the time I decided to load to the same velocity as the forty-five caliber NE cartridges. Basically, 2150fps with a 500gr FMJ from a 24" barrel.
My rifle was/is a 1994 Winchester CRF M-70. Brass, Winchester. Primers Federal 215. Powders: AA2230, H-335, IMR 4320, H-4895, IMR 3031. Thirty odd years ago, if I had had the in depth information you've provided, I could have saved myself a lot of grief.
However, all things considered, I successfully accomplished my goal and actually exceeded all my expectations. Most of the bullets used in load development were 500gr FMJ Hornady. Early on, I was shooting Jack Carter's original TBSH bullets. Then I switched to Speer AGS. My PAC load was minimum 2100fps @ 30yds. Twenty-two hundred fps was readily attained with no pressure signs, but I found that 2185fps was the optimum in my rifle.
As an aside, the following are some factory 500gr FMJ ammunition. Velocities across the screens and corrected to muzzle. Five shots each.
Through the years I've listened to the experts bad-mouth the .458WM and attempt to convince everyone (who'll listen) the Lott is SO much better. I long ago dismissed their collective ignorance and moved on. To each their own.
Sir Ele Hunter, Enaa baasee'. The original Winchester ammo of 1957 production (500-gr FMJ), from Sir Tony's donation to the Square Table, was over 64 years old when I tested it in a 25" Shilen barrel, got exactly what you got, 2080 fps MV. It used a small-grained extruded powder that showed no compression or clumping.
If we repeat the truth often enough maybe it will finally get ahead of the lies about the .458 Winchester Magnum.
In memoriam of Jack Lott, here he is just a few weeks after being tossed by a cape buffalo. His corneal abrasion from that twig that poked him in the eye healed and he was able to resume hunting with his M70 African .458 WinMag and an M98 .375 H&H. He vowed to keep an eye open (at least one of them) the next time he pulled the trigger on a cape buffalo, and to shut his eyes tightly the next time he got tossed into the treetops by a gut shot cape buffalo.
Notice how the picture below shows that factory .458 WinMag ammo shot more accurately in Jack's wildcat .458 Lott than the .458 Lott handloads did. Also the picture caption is good in pointing out: The slower bullet had greater barrel time and shot to higher point of impact at 50 yards: Rock&Roll
Images above from HANDLOADER'S DIGEST, 10th Edition.
Mahohboh's expert opinion of the .458 WinMag coming up ...
The many Ron Thomson books are widely available in e-book form for cheap including MAHOHBOH. Hardcover editions of MAHOHBOH are listed for about $125 to $250 on Amazon. I suspect the many nimrods carrying MAHOHBOH hardcopies in the field did it for the elephant anatomy images. The Square Table's main interest is in what he had to say about his trusty .458 Winchester Magnum:
Those Browning FN long extractor are great looking rifles, even without the lipstick. I am more enthralled by them than most M70's. I only have one, a non-lipstick version 30-06. I definitely think of it as a fine representation of days past of rifle production. I would be very tempted, if locally I run across a good condition 458 Winchester. I use to see a few locally in the early 90's.
Sir Larry, Enaa baasee' for helping us get to the 200 page mark on this thread. I have that magazine article in a pile. Your link is going to save me some scanning to get a 24hr photo gallery of that .450 Watts. Stand by.
In late May/2019/ Temp 54F @ 3.56″ COL/ 81 grs H4895/ 500gr Hor. = 2317 fps corrected to MV.
On June 11/2019/ Temp 21C @ 3.617″ COL/82 grs H4895/ 500gr Speer AGS = 2312 fps corrected to MV.
On June 11/2019/ Temp 21C @ 3.53 COL/84 grs H335/ 450gr A-Frame = 2403 fps corrected to MV.
On July 23/2019/ Temp 20C @ 3.325″ COL/82.5 grs H4198/ 300gr TSX = 2958, 2961 and 2959 fps (instrumental) -v. accurate! Corrected average (Chrony 15′ from muzzle) to MV = 2980 fps/5915 ft-lbs.
From my CZ 550 and it’s 25″ barrel, I got a high average of 2283 fps (corrected to MV) from the 500gr Hornady RN at 15 feet from the muzzle = 5786 ft-lbs. (5800 ft-lbs is claimed for the .458 Lott). That was from 81 grs of H4895 in winter weather and temps. COL was 3.44″.
On Jan 7/2010/ Temp at -7F, @ SAAMI COL/79 grs of H4895/ 500gr Hor = 2266 fps corrected to MV.
On June 30/2008/ Temp at +20C, @ 3.44″ COL/80 grs of H4895/500gr Hor = 2286 fps corrected to MV, etc.
My next outing is with my Ruger No. 1 with the second try at NEMO/BEMO/LEMO/HEMO cast bullet loads. Primarily looking for accuracy at 2150-2200 fps with 480-ish grainers: NEMO, Nitro Express Modus Operandi.
The .450 Watts O’Connor used on his 1953 safari began life as a standard 1898 Mauser. Tom Burgess did the extensive metal-smithing. Harvey Anderson barreled it; Albin Oslin stocked it.
Jim Stiehl bought the rifle, but not the claim. When it arrived, the floorplate “was a big surprise!”
Fitted with an aperture sight and a 2½x Lyman Alaskan scope in a Griffin & Howe QD side mount, the .450 saw action on buffalo without the optic.
The .450’s extended tang is unusual, added for a tang safety. There’s none in the slot. The original Mauser flag safety would have been as convenient. “I have a .450 that might have been Jack O’Connor’s.”
The .450 Watts (center) was the wildcat predecessor to Winchester’s .458 (left). The .458 Lott (right) is slightly shorter than the Watts, essentially the same ballistically. All are based on the .375 H&H.
This photo shows the .450 and O’Connor’s 1953 Cape buffalo. Note the engraved floorplate. “Always use solids for buffalo,” said Don Ker. Jack had not.
Dr. Jim Stiehl (left) donated the long-lost Mauser to the Jack O’Connor Center in Lewiston, Idaho. Wayne is in the middle and at right is Buck Buckner, who helped Lou Scharbau track it down.
Text of the article by Wayne Van Zwoll in GUNS Dec 2022:
JACK O'CONNOR'S .450 WATTS COMES HOME 'ALWAYS USE SOLIDS FOR BUFFS' WRITTEN BY WAYNE VAN ZWOLL
“They buried the boots and the feet.” It was all they could find of the man, reported Don Ker. The buffalo had wiped the earth with the rest of him, until there was nothing left but stained soil. “Always use solids for buffs.”
It was an unnecessary caution to Jack O’Connor, after m’bogo had shed the effects of his softnose to seek revenge. The tale “Buffaloes Shoot Back!” would appear in the January 1954 issue of Outdoor Life magazine.
Don Ker, of the famous outfitting firm Ker & Downey, was guiding Jack with Herb Klein and Red Early, on a two-month safari in the summer of ’53. They’d disembarked at Nairobi and driven south into Tanganyika, toward the Simiyu River.
The buffalo was spotted from the safari car as “a great black object” in grass and thorn on a low hill. Don saw it too, and was impressed. He motored on, so as not to disturb it.
As buffalo landed just below lion on Jack’s list, he’d secured a suitable rifle in .450 Watts. Winchester had yet to unveil its .458, so this was a custom project coming together in Washington state. Tom Burgess of Spokane had opened an 1898 Mauser action for the long cartridge and “fitted a Holland & Holland floor plate, magazine and trigger guard….” Harvey Anderson chambered and installed the barrel in his Yakima shop, slotting the muzzle to tame recoil. Clarkston’s Albin Oslin made a “good, strong” eminently shootable stock of plain walnut with cross-bolts book-ending the magazine. A Jaeger trigger, Lyman receiver sight and 2 ½x Lyman Alaskan in Griffin & Howe’s QD rings completed the package.
Wildcats
The .450 Watts was reportedly developed in 1948 by James Watts, a schoolteacher and big game hunter. An Alaska resident after 1936, he refined its design with Harvey Anderson, who built rifles for it on ’98 Mauser and 1917 Enfield actions. Watts took a rifle in .450 to Rhodesia and shot heavy beasts with it. O’Connor’s use of the cartridge gave it more exposure.
Unlike the .450 Ackley, the .450 Watts is not straightened or necked with a slight shoulder. It is most like the .458 Lott, inspired in 1959 when a buffalo ignored the persuasion of the new .458 Winchester Magnum and gave Jack Lott a toss. The Winchester, on a .375 H&H hull cut to 2.50″ to fit standard rifle actions, holds much less fuel than the Lott’s 2.80″ case and hurls 500-grain bullets about 200 fps slower. On some charts, the .450 Watts and .458 Ackley, both wildcats, trump the Lott, SAAMI-approved in 1995. But wildcatters can be optimistic and aren’t held to pressure ceilings. P.O. Ackley lists velocities of 2,470 fps for the Watts and Ackley, with 500-grain bullets driven by 90 grains of IMR 3031 — and even higher speeds with 95 to 98 grains 4320. But these are frothy loads. In sum, the .450 Watts, .458 Lott and .458 Ackley all land a harder blow than the .458 Winchester and the 450- to 475-caliber British double-rifle rounds to which it’s compared.
O’Connor wrote the .450 Watts cartridges he used were made from .375 H&H hulls run into a .450 Watts die, then loaded with 82 grains of No. 4895 powder and 480-grain bullets developed for the .450 Nitro Express. With a muzzle velocity of 2,175 fps, they carried 5,050 ft-lbs of energy — a ballistic match for “the great .470 Nitro Express, Africa’s favorite game cartridge, which uses a 500-grain bullet [at 2,125 fps], with 5,030 ft-lbs of energy.”
Impressive energy. But the buffalo had looked very big.
A kilometer past the animal, Don stopped the car and grabbed his .475 double as Jack thumbed the big .450s into his Mauser. They sneaked back through the bush. The buffalo was still there, no doubt waiting, speculated O’Connor, “to toss and pound an innocent dude hunter.”
The hunters had inched well within iron-sight range when a shot alley opened. The bull was lying down, quartering off. Kneeling, Jack steadied the sight in the aperture. The big Kynoch’s impact behind the shoulder “almost turned the buffalo over.” The animal slumped forward.
“Again,” Don directed. Jack sent another. And again the great body rocked. Looking down to top off the magazine, O’Connor had his thumb on the stack when suddenly the beast rose. “Then he lowered his head and came for us.” The two rifles thundered at once. The bull turned, staggered a few feet, and as the .450 fired once more, piled up. Jack’s first softnose had struck as intended, high in the lungs. It had flattened on the spine. “The buffalo is genuinely a tough character,” wrote O’Connor. “Among the professional hunters of British East Arica, it is generally agreed that [a young hunter is lucky] to get knocked down and kicked about a bit early in his career by a buffalo.” Caution follows.
After this safari, the .450 Watts rifle gave way to others in Jack’s writing and sometime after the 1953 hunt in Tanganyika, O’Connor parted ways with his Watts.
Home Base
Jack and Eleanor and their four children had moved to Lewiston, Idaho in 1948. Their house on Prospect Avenue would be their last. Jack died in 1978, Eleanor a few months later. In 2006, the Jack O’Connor Hunting Heritage and Education Center was established nearby, overlooking the Snake River in Hells Gate State Park on Lewiston’s southwest hem. The Center’s mission, inspired by its namesake’s career, was to extend his vision of hunting, writing and conservation to future generations. The museum displays 65 of his hunting trophies, also several O’Connor firearms: his Biesen-stocked “Number Two” .270, his favorite .30-06, Eleanor’s 7×57 and others.
This past June, the .450 Watts that had accompanied Jack on safari 69 years ago turned up at the Center’s annual fundraising event.
Homecoming
“I came by it incidentally,” said Dr. Jim Stiehl, whom I met during the gun show kicking off the weekend. Jim had traveled from his Illinois home to attend. “In 2003 a South African colleague I had worked beside in Zurich asked me to take delivery of a .318 Rigby he had bought from a man in Idaho. So I phoned the seller to arrange shipment. With more African hunts in mind, I asked if he had any big-bore rifles to peddle. He told me of one that might have been O’Connor’s. I wasn’t looking for anything that special; besides, how would I verify its provenance? But the price was right. Imagine my surprise when the rifle arrived! The floorplate was boldly engraved JO’C!”
So began Stiehl’s search through for a description and photo of the rifle. He found both. Buck Buckner, one of the Center’s founders and an authority on the writer, had thoroughly described the rifle in a 2002 Safari Press book, Jack O’Connor, by Robert Anderson. Also, there were photographs of Jack with the rifle and his buffalo in the 1954 magazine article and in the book Jack O’Connor’s Big Game Hunts (Outdoor Life and E.P. Dutton, 1963).
But Stiehl wouldn’t learn of the Center for another decade. Meanwhile, O’Connor enthusiast Lou Scharbau had taken the trail of the .450. Jack’s son Bradford, who lives not far from Scharbau in western Washington, referred him to Buckner. Buck had Dr. Stiehl’s name in his notes but an outdated address. In March 2019, after years of diligent sleuthing, Scharbau was on the phone with Stiehl, who confirmed he had the rifle. Immediately, Scharbau invited the retired surgeon to the Center. Two years of interrupted travel delayed the visit.
“I haven’t hunted with it,” Jim Stiehl said, unzipping the case. “It has value beyond utility.” Then, with a grin: “It’s home now.” And so he donated it to the Jack O’Connor Center, along with two boxes of Watts loads from Quality Cartridge in Hollywood, Maryland. “I’ve fired it,” he continued, handing me the rifle, “but only at the range, with modest loads. It shoots quite comfortably for a rifle so powerful!”
The .450 comes to cheek naturally. Fine balance, a straight comb and a slim wrist brings it alive in hand. The barrel’s heft steadies it. The Alaskan’s post reticle came instantly to eye. Flipping the G&H tabs and sliding off the scope, I slipped the Lyman stem and aperture into the rear sight base, a switch taking but seconds.
Jim Stiehl owns and uses other rifles. He could have carried this one afield. Instead, he preserved its fine condition. His generous donation brings to the Jack O’Connor Center not just a vintage post-war custom rifle but a slice of history.
Once, when Tanzania was Tanganyika, and hunters plied British East Africa on two-month safaris, this .450 helped the pre-eminent gun writer of his day stop “a big, square-built, blocky, low-slung animal, as black as sin,” coming very fast!
To learn more about the Jack O’Connor Hunting Heritage & Education Center, visit jack-oconnor.org or phone 208-743-0543.
"O’Connor wrote the .450 Watts cartridges he used were made from .375 H&H hulls run into a .450 Watts die, then loaded with 82 grains of No. 4895 powder and 480-grain bullets developed for the .450 Nitro Express. With a muzzle velocity of 2,175 fps, they carried 5,050 ft-lbs of energy ..."
JOC looks to have had a full-blown integral muzzle brake on that rifle, slotted fish gills. Looks like 5 pairs of those slots on the sides of the barrel near muzzle.
Of course we know he was shooting a reduced load compared to what can be done with a SAAMI .458 WinMag nowadays, even limited to 3.34" COL and 60,000 psi.
The 480-gr soft he was using was too soft it seems, from the description of the lung shot mashing up against the spine of the buffalo that charged them. Of course if he had been using a 404-gr Shock Hammer at 2500 fps MV from a .458 WinMag, that first shot would have killed the buffalo DRT.
I killed my first cape buffalo with a .416/380-gr GSC FN (SOLID) at 2506 fps MV. I killed my second cape buffalo with a .510/450-gr GSC HV (SOFT) at 2654 fps MV. One shot kills.
My next one will be sort of an average of both of those loads for caliber, mass and velocity. It is a SOFT bullet that converts to a SOLID after impact. .458/404-gr Shock Hammer HP blows off nose in chest cavity of buffalo and the cylindrical base solid destroys spine, if entering at angle of JOC's first shot. How could that possibly fail ? Only by muffing the shot. A gut shot with any bullet might not go well for either the shooter or the shootee. I am sure we all can recall a story about a gut-shot cape buffalo that got angry about it ...
Cast Bullets in the .458 WinMag continues with the question, just what length of a .461" diameter right cylinder can be fitted into a SAAMI .458 WinMag throat ?
A little less than 0.5" length. Keep it down to about 0.4" and it is an easy fit. For a SAAMI .458 Lott, the corresponding length in inch units is ZERO.
Using an Accurate Molds drawing "Inspired" by the Lyman 457121 PH proves to be very good for modeling the PH cast in 1:20 alloy, PC painted and sized to 0.459":
Previous flirtation with 72.0 grains of AA-2460s and deeper seating proved to be of too high velocity for the two "46-485" bullets from Accurate Molds. They exceeded the 2200 fps maximum for Nitro Express Modus Operandi. So next, the load is decreased to 70.0 grains, and seating depth is decreased to 0.355" for both. Now they both have air space in their cases, identical LR/net fill of about 93%. That is a 478-grainer at 3.340" COL, quite lovely, and the 491-grainer at 3.480" COL, a wicked witch of a bullet. This requires just a taper crimp and no roll crimp into the full diameter bullet, right in the middle of bearing band. Both are hard alloy, BHN25, Eastwood Ford Light Blue PC paint, and have gas checks.
One often sees a little "s" tacked onto the "AA-2460s" name, and not the "AA-2230." I finally figured this must be code for AA-2460s having all spherical grains of the same stuff that is in AA-2230. AA-2230 has about half of its grains squashed flat to make it pack into a smaller space and burn a little faster. I am going to try to remember to type the little "s" henceforth: AA-2460s
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, between the both of us I know we'll get it done, and no trouble if I shear some screws, this rifle wont wear a scope when hunting Africa, I don't need optics to shoot a couch at 20 yards, just like my 505 Gibbs, those 600 grain Woodleighs are scope killing some-b's.
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