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I know a few on here shoot .400 Whelens. I am looking hard at the 400 Woodleigh as the projectile of choice.

For those that shoot it…I believe Woodleigh recommends a minimum impact velocity of 1800 fps. Starting at 2100-2150 or so it falls below that around 150 yards.

Do you feel the 1800 fps minimum is conservative, aggressive or about right?

Anyone taking game further with good results?

Not trying to make the .400 something it ain’t…just trying to get an idea of what is realistic should I move forward with the project (presently debating between a .375-06, .400 Whelen, .358 Norma and .416 Taylor…neither of which do I need, lol)
considering that woodleigh no longer exists, and bullets are drying up fast, maybe think about a different bullet.

But, I believe Mart has used that bullet for caribou well past 150 yards.

If you can be patient with bullet selection currently, it's a fun project. I'm likely building a 2nd gun soon with a short barrel to shoot the 300-360 range, basically ending up with a bolt action 405 Win, not an elephant gun.

With bullet selection being what it is right now, the 375 or 416 Taylor would be better choices. Dies for anything on your list, are going to be expensive and a loooong wait. In the classifieds though, a guy was selling 2 sets of 416/350 rem mag dies. It would fit right in with what you're looking at, and you can go buy the dies right now, which is the hardest part
Thanks for the heads up on Woodleighs being out of business. I figured it was just an import issue.

I saw those 416/350 dies. Would be fun for sure.

Hearing some good things about the 300 TSX in the .400.

gunner500 actually has a .416 Taylor available right now. Makes a guy think.

Thanks
Mile High Shooter mentioned the .405 Winchester.
I happen to shoot bullets of 210, 300, and 400 grains with my 1895 .405 WCF. There are also excellent 300 and 360 grain North Fork bullets for the .405.

The 300 grain NF takes big game like water buff nicely - one shot and DRT for me. This Cape Buff was taken in RSA with 400 grain Woodies at 2100 fps :
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

400 grain bullets have been driven with N133 to 2200 fps. With NF bullets of 300 and 360 grains, the 400 grain bullets may not be needed.

I also have a .405 DR and have so far taken Nilgai and red deer with it using 300 grain bullets at 2250 fps. It also regulates 400 grain bullets at 2100 fps, but I have not hunted with them yet.
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]




Very cool! Great looking rifles that are obviously effective on the big stuff!

I am thinking the smart way to go about this project is to get a supply of bullets and then go from there.
Woodleigh says they are rebuilding, though how long until they are in production again, no one can say.

I dont have experience with that bullet but having known Geoff the owner for 20+ years and used woodleighs in 416, 375 and 585 I will go out on a limb and say it just might work at the lower velocity. The Australian philisophy for bullets is positive expansion. A lot of todays modern premium bullets are made very tough. If they cant pass through 6 phone books, 12" of wood and 4ft of ballistic gelatin on a youttube video without 99% weight retention they are seen as'' failing''. Woodleighs are known for penetrating well on the bigger stuff, yet also shooting big holes in medium game like hogs etc. Geoff wanted good reports from all sorts of hunters when developing his bullets, the guy shooting the water buff as well as the fella plugging pigs with a 470 nitro for fun.

That said my own personal choice of your list would be 416 taylor since its still a neat tidy little elephant gun, removes all doubt with the velocities you need and also I can say 340-350 grain bullets in this calibre are fine for heavy game. A 350 grain bullet in 416 has a sectional density of .29 versus .3 for the 300 grain in 375 H&H, aka they are still serious penetrating options. If woodleigh gets back in on its feet 340 grain protected point is worth a look.
Thanks 158XTP. Hopefully they get running again soon!

Also, can’t argue with your sentiments on the .416 Taylor. Seems like a good one.
I don't remember if I've shot the Woodleighs or not, but if you're looking at the heavies, I sure understand the sentiments. Never shot any game with them.

I've settled on the 300 TSX in the 400 and haven't found the need to really mess with anything else after nine critters.
Originally Posted by HawkI
I don't remember if I've shot the Woodleighs or not, but if you're looking at the heavies, I sure understand the sentiments. Never shot any game with them.

I've settled on the 300 TSX in the 400 and haven't found the need to really mess with anything else after nine critters.


I have been exchanging PMs with another 300 TSX shooter and his sentiments are the same.

I have notifications setup on most of the major websites so if they ever come available again smile
Barnes used to make a 350gr. X. I found some, but not anywhere near a "discontinued" price.

I think a 350 or thereabouts would be perfect, but I've never found the 300 lacking whatsoever.
HawkI said " think a 350 or thereabouts would be perfect," Indeed.

I am experimenting with .458 North Fork 350 SS in my 45-70 and 45-90 handloads and they are accurate, but yet to be tried on Game.
The Woodleigh 400 grain performed beautifully at 250 yards on a caribou. Started out right at 2150 fps. I’m pretty certain the 1800 mark is conservative.

The bullet left a fist size exit wound behind the left shoulder. I know one animal doesn’t make an empirical test, but others shooting the same bullet have reported similar results.

Hawks 400 grain did a wonderful job on a cow moose at 75 yards. And the Barnes 300 grain TSX worked as designed on a caribou at 200 yards.

I have a lot of 400 grain Woodleighs as well as a good supply of 400 grain Barnes originals. I’d like to get a Hawk 350 into a moose or caribou. I have some loaded. Just need to get me, the rifle and a critter in the same place at the same time.
MR, we've spoke a bit about my 400 Whelen and 400gr woodleigh softs and solids, what i havent talked much about online and certainly didn't have videographer guy film was all the bullet testing after heavy African game was on the ground, can say the 400gr Woodleigh softs and solids are great, great bullets in the 400 Whelen at 2255 fps over CFE-223, the softs penetrated plenty deep on Cape Buffalo and Zebra testing, the solids went straight line length ways through both.

In the case of a 40 cal rifle with 400gr at 2400 fps would be my 400 H&H, tested .411" 400gr A-Frames and CEB #13 400gr solids on Cape Buffalo, Hippo and Zebra, penetration on the A-frames was plenty adequate, being perfect for herd shooting, all bullets were in the offside hide when taking out a shoulder on the way in, the BBW #13 solids were never recovered, a truly amazing penetrator, just something to think about should you ever find yourself booking an African hunt.

As Mart said, even at a comfortable 2150 fps, those 400gr Woodleigh weldcore softs will handily dispatch 'any' conus/Canadian/Alaskan game animal inside 250 yards.

Have fun, it's a great cartridge, and yes, when time, be sure to get the Petrov reamer for your Gunsmith.
This is all great information guys. I really appreciate it! Fingers crossed Woodleigh comes back on line someday.
Can you learned 400 whelen fellas advise me what its like from a gunsmithing point of view. Rebarrel of a 30-06 chamber gun with some extra work done? My only experience with it is what I oft read over the years about its headspace issues. Is this misquoted, real or easily dealt with?
Do a search for Michael Petrov’s articles on the 400 Whelen. He does a good job of dispelling the headspace myth. In short there is no headspace issue.

It depends on the gun. You may need to do do some work on the rails for feeding. My model 70 feeds fine without any work. Except for the short Hornady flat points and the 300 grain Hawks.
Mine will most likely be on a Montana Rifle Company 1999 Action that presently has a .35 Whelen barrel on it. Feeds great as a .35 Whelen so hoping the .400 will work equally well.
Here is the proper reamer for the G&H/Michael Petrov version:

[Linked Image]

Use the reloading dies from

CH4D "400 Whelen JGS" 2 Die Set Grp. F

or

RCBS "P/N: 57060 400 Whelen" Group J Full Length Die Set

Here is an even better reamer that works with the same reloading dies,
yet gives 0.003" more positive shoulder step.
and 0.122" longer free-bore length:

[Linked Image]
A Ruger M77 Hawkeye .35 Whelen was a simple re-barrel
with a Shilen No.5 Sporter, 1:14" twist barrel
23.6" long, muzzle diameter 0.725", slick barreled, no iron sights
7#14oz with no ammo and no scope&rings.
JGS reamer for Petrov/G&H version:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Results of .411/300-gr Hornady SP "405 WIN" bullet
R-P brass, COL 3.123", WLR primer, RL-10X powder charge = 57.0 grains,
gave 2324 fps MV (2308.3 fps for 10-shot average at 5 yards)
striking deer at 100 yards and 150 yards:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Two heart shots, each deer staggered about 10 feet and fell.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I was able to test a proof load of 400-gr Woodleigh at +2400 fps for at least one shot,
but do not recommend that load except as a proof load:

[Linked Image]






Of course I could not leave well enough alone.
Playing with the 400 Whelen-B is what got me interested in the .458 WinMag again after all those years of neglect.
Turning a 3.4"-boxed .270 WCF into a 3.6"-boxed ".400 W+" was good practice for turning a .30-06 into a .458 WM+.

[Linked Image]

This rifle also weighs 7#14oz with no ammo, and no scope&rings, slick-barreled:

[Linked Image]

That is a Shilen stainless No.4 Sporter barrel that is 0.660" diameter at 25" length to muzzle.
Shilen refused to make one so light for me next time I tried them, IIRC ?
Back to No. 5 Sporter for the Shilen .404-bore/.411"-groove barrels !

Remember that you can size a .416" bullet down to .409" in two steps (or three steps if desired for ease),
and bullet will spring back to 0.411":

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Sir Ron,
Thank you for the pix and text just above. You have reaffirmed my loading of .411 300 grain Hornady bullets to 2250 fps for my Winchester 1895 .405. NF bullets add to the killing power.
The Hornady 300 grain factory ammo box says 2225 fps so I just target my handloads close to that to maintain compatibility with factory ammo.
As demonstrated with your photos, that is adequate for much of the game in the US. It has provided one shot kills on Nilgai and 300 pound red deer/elk cross (yuumy too) here in Texas.

Plus, I agree with not pushing the 400 grain Woodies too hard. My 1895 405 used a 2100 fps 400 grain Woodie to take a Cape buff cleanly, so why tempt fate for another 300 fps? I have contacts loading their 1895 .405 WCF rifles with 400 grain Woodies to 2200 fps for cape buff and they too found that fast enough.


Great stuff Rifle Crank! I actually called Shilen a few days ago and they confirmed that the smallest they will do is a #5 even though I want it cut later to finish at 20-21”.

PAC-NOR said they will do one closer in a #4 contour so leaning that way.

The resizing of .416s definitely opens up some options.

Thanks again!
I did the resizing route with 416 bullets. Pain in the butt. They shot well but it really was a chore with the Lee push through dies. It can be done though.

There are an adequate number of good .411 bullets available and it is an awesome cast bullet round. Accurate Molds will make you a good mold if you're a caster. I would keep a close eye on Gunbroker for .411 bullets. They crop up pretty often.

Hawk Bullets has a 300, 350 and 400 grain. I have used the 400 grain on one cow moose. It worked fine. I'm carrying the 350 grain bullets in it now hoping to try them on caribou or moose or bear. The 300 grain is pretty short and didn't feed well in my rifle. Swift has a 350 and 400 grain A frame. I think the 350 A Frame would be outstanding. The Hornady 300 grains shot well but didn't feed well. My rifle likes them magazine length. Of course Barnes has their excellent 300 grain TSX. It can be loaded out long enough to feed well in my rifle.
Mart, have you tried the .411 300 or 360 grain North Fork bullets? Being copper, they are a bit longer than solid lead bullets. They will also shoot through most any critter. I like them in my 1895 .405 WCF .
I tried both of them. I liked them a lot but should have bought a few boxes of them when they were in business. I think I have a few of the 360s. Probably 8-10. Enough to load enough for a hunt. They both shot and fed well in my rifle.

I’m guessing either would shoot the full length of a moose or bear.
Mart, how was the accuracy of the Hawks in your rifle? What jacket thickness?
I use the .025 jacket. The 300 and 400 grain shot well but the first box of 350 grain gave me inconsistent results. A good group then a bad group. I was pretty disappointed because I thought 350 grains would be an optimal weight in the 400W. I ordered another box several month later and those have shot well. Consistently 1.5 inch groups. Which is what mine shoots with just about everything.

I’ve shot a lot of Hawk bullets in several calibers in load development and that one box of .411 350s have been the only ones to give me inconsistent results like that.
Mart said " I liked them a lot but should have bought a few boxes of them when they were in business."

Mart, North Fork is in business. Their bullet making machinery is in Sweden and bullets are being made there and shipped to various countries, including America.

I am presently loading and shooting the .458 350 grain SS bullets and found them accurate. I still have a good supply of 450 grain FPS loaded to 2150 fps, but they are DG ammo.
I thought North Fork shut down. I remember seeing the posting on their website. I’m didn’t know they were back in business. Same company or did someone else buy them out?
Mart,
as I remember, the founder, Mike Brady, sold the business to an American company who moved machines further north and west.
Then that group sold the business to a Swedish group who moved all operations to Sweden and this shut down operation for a few months. The Swedish group now is making the bullets and distributing them through distributors in different countries.
I do not know the names of the various distributors and get my information from Mike.
They do maintain an Internet site and can be located that way.

I use NF in my 1895 .405 WCF(.411 ) and in my 1886 45-90 (.458) . They are my favorite solids in those calibers. Their bonded bullets are tops also.
I’ll have to order some. I’ve wanted to try both the 300 and 360 on game.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Of course I could not leave well enough alone.
Playing with the 400 Whelen-B is what got me interested in the .458 WinMag again after all those years of neglect.
Turning a 3.4"-boxed .270 WCF into a 3.6"-boxed ".400 W+" was good practice for turning a .30-06 into a .458 WM+.

[Linked Image]

This rifle also weighs 7#14oz with no ammo, and no scope&rings, slick-barreled:

[Linked Image]

That is a Shilen stainless No.4 Sporter barrel that is 0.660" diameter at 25" length to muzzle.
Shilen refused to make one so light for me next time I tried them, IIRC ?
Back to No. 5 Sporter for the Shilen .404-bore/.411"-groove barrels !

Remember that you can size a .416" bullet down to .409" in two steps (or three steps if desired for ease),
and bullet will spring back to 0.411":

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]



Dang good stuff Sir Ron, i need to look into that and draw down a pile of .416 cal 400gr partitions and shoot em in my 400 Whelen, bet they'd be real penetrators at a leisurely 2255 fps over CFE-223 powder.
Sir Jerry,
You will not be disappointed.
A base-pusher sizer of 0.412" and then 0.409" will get you sprung back to 0.411" final diameter on the Nosler Partition 400-grainer.
Roll the bullets on a Lyman lube pad before each step, with RCBS Case Lube-2.
And that super load with CFE-223 will keep the rifle clean !
Win Win.
Thanks Sir Ron, can i do that with my load press, or do i need to mount it to a heavy steel shop table with a 4ft cheater pipe? think i have around 200 of the 400gr partitions, may need to do only half or none at all, and save for my 416 Taylor, had a couple people interested in it, dug it out of the safe for pics and forgot what a cool rifle it is, now i dont want to sell it. crazy LOL.
Originally Posted by mart
I’ll have to order some. I’ve wanted to try both the 300 and 360 on game.


https://reloadinginternational.com/search.php?s=North+Fork&x=14&y=16
Thanks Elk old buddy, if a man wanted to spend the money, work up a load, practice a bit and not waste, bet those .410/.411" 400gr Cup Point Solids would do it all, deer to Cape Buffalo.

Still waiting on that phone call to meet you halfway betwinxt your place and mine to hand you off a 26" barreled 500 Nitro so i can read about you bashing an elephant in the head! cool
Originally Posted by gunner500
Thanks Sir Ron, can i do that with my load press, or do i need to mount it to a heavy steel shop table with a 4ft cheater pipe? think i have around 200 of the 400gr partitions, may need to do only half or none at all, and save for my 416 Taylor, had a couple people interested in it, dug it out of the safe for pics and forgot what a cool rifle it is, now i dont want to sell it. crazy LOL.


If I was smarter I would just buy your .416 and forget this .400 Whelen project. You .416 is a great setup. Unfortunately I am infected with the Whelen bug and can't seem to shake it.
I’ve sold a fair amount of my rifles. Posterior cervical fusion C2 to T2 limits recoil tolerance. The only rifle I miss is a 416 Taylor. It is a wonderful cartridge and easy to shoot and load for. Shoot lots of cast bullets at almost full speed. The Speer 350 grain is an outstanding performer as is the hornady 400 soft.
The Lee dies have a tapered expander to neck up 7mm mag cases and make something useful out of them.
Killed a pile of bison with it, mostly two year old heifers at 1200 pounds. A few bulls in the upper teens weight wise. Just puts their nose in the dirt now. Somebody sent me a handful of 300 grain bullet made from 40 s&w cases swaged. Killed seven heifers, all head shots. No exits so a pretty soggy bullet. It was a fun rifle
Originally Posted by gunner500
Thanks Elk old buddy, if a man wanted to spend the money, work up a load, practice a bit and not waste, bet those .410/.411" 400gr Cup Point Solids would do it all, deer to Cape Buffalo.

Still waiting on that phone call to meet you halfway betwinxt your place and mine to hand you off a 26" barreled 500 Nitro so i can read about you bashing an elephant in the head! cool

Still waiting for a rich aunt or uncle to leave me mucho money. wink
Mart,

Good to hear you have Hawk another chance and the results were better. When I first read your post about the hawk bullets my first thought was "he tried those years ago and said they shot like crap?!"

I have been tempted to order some myself, but maybe a heavier jacket, possibly a very heavy custom jacket. The biggest detractors of Hawk seem to be pushing everything they shoot to extreme speeds. Hawk being old school tech, heavy weight and moderate speed seems to with just fine. If they will make a 350 with a .50 or .65 (i think that's the heaviest I've seen in their page) *should* equate to a decently stout bullet at whelen speeds.

I emailed NF and they're pretty far behind, but they're taking back orders. Just wish we could get them to offer more weights in 410/411. Seems the biggest variety is for those Miroku 1895's @.412/413
I was sure disappointed in the first batch of 350 Hawks. I’m glad I decided to try them again.

I think your assessment is on the mark. From what I’ve been able to garner from folks who have used Hawks more than me, is they perform well at moderate velocities.

I’m not sure how much expansion you’d get from a .050 jacket at Whelen velocity. Ought to penetrate well. My one moose with the 400 grain Hawk was a .025 jacket. The bullet exited and showed damage consistent with good expansion. It must have held together as I never found any shrapnel. No jacket slivers or slivers of lead.

I’m tempted to order some North Fork but to be honest I have so many Woodleigh and Barnes 400 grain it’s hard to justify buying more bullets.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by gunner500
Thanks Sir Ron, can i do that with my load press, or do i need to mount it to a heavy steel shop table with a 4ft cheater pipe? think i have around 200 of the 400gr partitions, may need to do only half or none at all, and save for my 416 Taylor, had a couple people interested in it, dug it out of the safe for pics and forgot what a cool rifle it is, now i dont want to sell it. crazy LOL.


If I was smarter I would just buy your .416 and forget this .400 Whelen project. You .416 is a great setup. Unfortunately I am infected with the Whelen bug and can't seem to shake it.


The 400 Whelen is a great cartridge, mine holds 5 down with one in the pipe, 400 grains at 2255 fps on an '06 sized case is the very definition of efficiency.
Originally Posted by elkhunternm
Originally Posted by gunner500
Thanks Elk old buddy, if a man wanted to spend the money, work up a load, practice a bit and not waste, bet those .410/.411" 400gr Cup Point Solids would do it all, deer to Cape Buffalo.

Still waiting on that phone call to meet you halfway betwinxt your place and mine to hand you off a 26" barreled 500 Nitro so i can read about you bashing an elephant in the head! cool

Still waiting for a rich aunt or uncle to leave me mucho money. wink


LOL, damnit Man! ; ]
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by gunner500
Thanks Sir Ron, can i do that with my load press, or do i need to mount it to a heavy steel shop table with a 4ft cheater pipe? think i have around 200 of the 400gr partitions, may need to do only half or none at all, and save for my 416 Taylor, had a couple people interested in it, dug it out of the safe for pics and forgot what a cool rifle it is, now i dont want to sell it. crazy LOL.


If I was smarter I would just buy your .416 and forget this .400 Whelen project. You .416 is a great setup. Unfortunately I am infected with the Whelen bug and can't seem to shake it.


The 400 Whelen is a great cartridge, mine holds 5 down with one in the pipe, 400 grains at 2255 fps on an '06 sized case is the very definition of efficiency.


You aren’t kidding there.


This thread is hard to watch. 400W has always been on my radar.
Originally Posted by beretzs
This thread is hard to watch.


Sorry....not sorry.

My 'smith just got all the parts today to put together a .358 Norma for me. I robbed a .358 barrel off a Montana Rifle Company 1999 .35 Whelen for that build so now I have a nice CRF action freed up for the .400 Whelen. The 1999 fed the .35 Whelen great so should be an excellent donor for the 400. While he was here picking up stuff we got to talking about possibly doing a Nilgai hunt in south Texas. Would be a fun hunt for the Norma or the 400. Maybe bring both and smack some pigs.
Man, AND the 358 Norma. Those are two I wanna do. I have barrels and all that jazz along with a Supergrade Classic action for the 358.

The 400 should be excellent. Kind of a nice darned big bore. Shouldn’t be a bad recoiler either with a decent made gun. Can’t wait to see how it comes out. What stock are you going to put on it?
The MRC 1999 was already bedded in an HS Precision so sticking with that for now. I think a little extra weight is not all bad in something spitting out 400 grain bullets. I would like to find a nice wood stock as well.
I agree. Should be a slick set up.

I need to find a donor for it but it’s always on my brain.
My road to the .400 Whelen and .400 Whelen-B of 2013 included this from 2000 AD:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

That would make a nice rebore to .458 WinMag.
I wonder if JES can do a 1:10" twist .458 rebore ?
I would shorten the barrel and thread it for suppressor if it could be re-bored with 1:10" twist.
To stay on topic: Cast lead bullet sizing is good in a regular single stage reloading press.
Jacketed and monometal copper and brass requires more, but it is cheap and easy to come by:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
If a person wanted to size some bullets down for paper patching to shoot in the 400 Whelen with duplexed BP,
I bet the right size could be found here, amongst this set of custom-ordered LEE bullet sizers:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Remember back when a person could do things like order bullet sizers from Lee and CH4D and expect to see them in a few weeks ?

I think the LEE and CH4D are both good sizers.
LEE sold them for a more reasonable price.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
My road to the .400 Whelen and .400 Whelen-B of 2013 included this from 2000 AD:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

That would make a nice rebore to .458 WinMag.
I wonder if JES can do a 1:10" twist .458 rebore ?
I would shorten the barrel and thread it for suppressor if it could be re-bored with 1:10" twist.


That’s a cool Ruger!

And very neat about the bullet sizing. Never done it. I should though.
Great stuff Riflecrank! My first Whelen (.35) is a Ruger 77 Stainless also.


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

I like that resizing setup. Interesting process.
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by gunner500
Thanks Sir Ron, can i do that with my load press, or do i need to mount it to a heavy steel shop table with a 4ft cheater pipe? think i have around 200 of the 400gr partitions, may need to do only half or none at all, and save for my 416 Taylor, had a couple people interested in it, dug it out of the safe for pics and forgot what a cool rifle it is, now i dont want to sell it. crazy LOL.


If I was smarter I would just buy your .416 and forget this .400 Whelen project. You .416 is a great setup. Unfortunately I am infected with the Whelen bug and can't seem to shake it.


The 400 Whelen is a great cartridge, mine holds 5 down with one in the pipe, 400 grains at 2255 fps on an '06 sized case is the very definition of efficiency.


You aren’t kidding there.


This thread is hard to watch. 400W has always been on my radar.


LOL, it's a dandy big Buddy.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
To stay on topic: Cast lead bullet sizing is good in a regular single stage reloading press.
Jacketed and monometal copper and brass requires more, but it is cheap and easy to come by:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]


Many Thanks for all that Sir Ron, best i can tell it'd take around 400 bucks to get set up with the press and CH4D dies, i may have to regroup or rethink this project, iirc have between 2 and 300 of the 400gr partitions.
Sir Jerry,
If turning a few of the 400-gr/.416 Partitions into 400-gr/.411 Partitions is all you want to do,
send a sample to me and I will return them to you post transformation.
Or I'll just bring the equipment to the next Square Table Picnic.
MedRiver,
I do love the Zytel Canoe Paddle stocks. Indestructible and light weight.
Love the Ruger M77 too.
The only inaccurate one I ever had was an M77 Ultralight Pushfeed .270 WCF with a pencil barrel in a skinny walnut factory stock.
It would generally shoot into my hat size at 100 yards.

All of the CRF Mark II and Hawkeye M77s I have had were accurate, as was my first M77 Pushfeed .30-06 circa 1981,
which would shoot 3 shots into 0.5 MOA, and still does, over 40 years later.

A most accurate .300 WinMag in a Zytel stock, even with a Tasco "World Class" 3-9x40mm mildot scope,
I would not change a thing about her 9 pounds and 2 ounces as shown here:

[Linked Image]

Other Zytel Wunderrifles:
The .458 WM that weighs 9#4oz with the 2.5X Leupold scope:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

The bare-rifle weight with iron sights of a 20"-barreled .416 Ruger in Zytel stock is 7 pounds 0 ounces:

[Linked Image]

The bare-rifle weight with iron sights of a 20"-barreled .375 Ruger in Zytel stock is 7 pounds 5 ounces:

[Linked Image]

Ye olde Hogue factory stock weighs about 2.5 pounds. Zytel weighs about 1.5 pounds.
Easy one pound off the rifle.
Those silly laminated grip panel inserts would add an ounce and need to be checkered.
The standard Zytel grip panels are better.
I do like to have the noisy sling hangers replaced with Uncle Mike's studs.
And either a replacement recoil pad or a slip-on LOP adjuster is a treat.

[Linked Image]
Back to Whelens:

A factory Ruger M77 Hawkeye .35 Whelen weighed 7.0 pounds out of the box,
with 22" barrel of only 0.560" muzzle diameter (OH MY ! ):

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

That M77 Hawkeye was re-barreled to .400 Whelen (Petrov-G&H-JGS)
with a Shilen No. 5 sporter of 23.6" length and 0.725" muzzle diameter.
It weighed 7 lbs 14 oz in the factory walnut stock, slick-barreled/bare/dry/empty.
I let the gunsmith keep that .35-cal take-off barrel. I never fired the rifle as .35 Whelen, before the re-barrel to .400 Whelen.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
MedRiver,
I do love the Zytel Canoe Paddle stocks. Indestructible and light weight.
Love the Ruger M77 too.
The only inaccurate one I ever had was an M77 Ultralight Pushfeed .270 WCF with a pencil barrel in a skinny walnut factory stock.
It would generally shoot into my hat size at 100 yards.

All of the CRF Mark II and Hawkeye M77s I have had were accurate, as was my first M77 Pushfeed .30-06 circa 1981,
which would shoot 3 shots into 0.5 MOA, and still does, over 40 years later.

A most accurate .300 WinMag in a Zytel stock, even with a Tasco "World Class" 3-9x40mm mildot scope,
I would not change a thing about her 9 pounds and 2 ounces as shown here:

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Other Zytel Wunderrifles:
The .458 WM that weighs 9#4oz with the 2.5X Leupold scope:

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The bare-rifle weight with iron sights of a 20"-barreled .416 Ruger in Zytel stock is 7 pounds 0 ounces:

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The bare-rifle weight with iron sights of a 20"-barreled .375 Ruger in Zytel stock is 7 pounds 5 ounces:

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Ye olde Hogue factory stock weighs about 2.5 pounds. Zytel weighs about 1.5 pounds.
Easy one pound off the rifle.
Those silly laminated grip panel inserts would add an ounce and need to be checkered.
The standard Zytel grip panels are better.
I do like to have the noisy sling hangers replaced with Uncle Mike's studs.
And either a replacement recoil pad or a slip-on LOP adjuster is a treat.

[Linked Image]


Great looking rifles! My go to big game rifle has been a paddle stock .300 Win Mag for quite a while now. It has the new swivel treatment. Loses the aesthetics of the swivel but sure is nice to remove a sling easily or add a bipod.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Been a very accurate and reliable killer with the 180 TTSX
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Jerry,
If turning a few of the 400-gr/.416 Partitions into 400-gr/.411 Partitions is all you want to do,
send a sample to me and I will return them to you post transformation.
Or I'll just bring the equipment to the next Square Table Picnic.



That'll work, many Thanks Sir Ron.
The 400 looks like a fun cartridge.

Is the cylindrical brass the way to go? I know Mainer on here has had luck with his similar chamber simply necking up 9.3x62 brass. It is a bit smaller in the shoulder and not full 2.5 length but obviously very available.
Qual-cart offers 400 Whelen stamped cylinder brass, very easy way to go about it
I am going with the qual-cart for my project. Grafs has it in stock and with a dealer discount it is about $1.86/piece. Not cheap but not going to be banging at prairie dogs all day with it either.

Just had my 20 year anniversary and my wife wants me to build a rifle as her gift to me. Looks like I have some orders to place next week to get the barrel and dies in process smile
Makes sense. 100 pieces would likely last quite a while. What barrel are you ordering? Shilen #5 seems a good fit. .7ish at around 22-23”.


Anybody have issues shooting .410 bullets like the AFrame in .411 barrels? Sounds like folks are getting good accuracy with them?

Ron- what mag box mods did you do to get a 3.6” mag box? Do you just throat long for extra chamber capacity?

I picked up an old Mauser for some kind of “big bore” project. Originally thinking 9.3, then was cogitating on a 416 like the Ruger, but keep coming back to something like the 400.

A handy package with iron sights and maybe a reflex mounted to toss .4+ caliber bullets at a decent clip.
400’s at 2200, 350’s at 2300’ or 300’s at 2400 seems like a good spot.
Just put 400 Whelen in the Googler and this popped up:



I think I’ve seen that feller around here before…..😀
Originally Posted by MadMooner
Makes sense. 100 pieces would likely last quite a while. What barrel are you ordering? Shilen #5 seems a good fit. .7ish at around 22-23”.



I am going to order a pac-nor #4 with a target finished length of 20-21”
I had some fitment issues with the Qual Cart Basic brass (they should obviously be checked).

The cartridge diameter just in front of the extractor ring exceeded the diameter of the cartridge numbers (and that of every other '06 case drawing). They had to be turned just in that one area, some cases, not all, but a pain.

My barrel was done by Pac-Nor, pre fire, when they had a reamer. Yes, the reamer was specc'd correctly. Without this issue, basic brass should be trim to length, a trip through the FL (CH4D dies wont mess up the shoulder, ever) load and go.

I use 35 Whelen cases, most recently some Noslers. I use a 416 tapered expander in a Redding '06 class die. This is just to expand and the 416 expander brings the 35 case at the shoulder past .459, and then sized in the FL die.
Runout on the 35 Whelen Noslers are also quite a bit better than the Qual Carts as well and theres no trimming out of the gate either.
Originally Posted by MadMooner
Makes sense. 100 pieces would likely last quite a while. What barrel are you ordering? Shilen #5 seems a good fit. .7ish at around 22-23”.


Anybody have issues shooting .410 bullets like the AFrame in .411 barrels? Sounds like folks are getting good accuracy with them?

Ron- what mag box mods did you do to get a 3.6” mag box? Do you just throat long for extra chamber capacity?

I picked up an old Mauser for some kind of “big bore” project. Originally thinking 9.3, then was cogitating on a 416 like the Ruger, but keep coming back to something like the 400.

A handy package with iron sights and maybe a reflex mounted to toss .4+ caliber bullets at a decent clip.
400’s at 2200, 350’s at 2300’ or 300’s at 2400 seems like a good spot.





No issues getting accuracy here. I've even used some .409 Lion Loads without a hitch.

I've ran 300 TSXs just under 2500 for the entire time I've used the Whelen in the field, the chronograph reading 2485.
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter
Qual-cart offers 400 Whelen stamped cylinder brass, very easy way to go about it


You bet Gentlemen, cylindrical brass slowly necked down to leave a nice firm crush on bolt closing fit then trimmed to max length, load and fire, makes beautiful fully functional 400 Whelen brass, my fire form loads were so accurate i didnt bother to waste them, in fact, i took those fire form loads to Africa.
Originally Posted by MadMooner
Just put 400 Whelen in the Googler and this popped up:



I think I’ve seen that feller around here before…..😀


Damn, LOL Mooner, i would like to apologize for the open shirt, it was a million degrees that day, had been tracking buffalo for 7 dang miles when we came upon this nice Antelope buck, speaking of accurate 400 Whelen fire form loads, i hit my knee and shot this buck in the chest at 198 yards with a 400gr Woodleigh round nose Weldcore, the bullet exited left of his nut sack out back, i think i would have laid down too ; ]
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Back to Whelens:

A factory Ruger M77 Hawkeye .35 Whelen weighed 7.0 pounds out of the box,
with 22" barrel of only 0.560" muzzle diameter (OH MY ! ):

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That M77 Hawkeye was re-barreled to .400 Whelen (Petrov-G&H-JGS)
with a Shilen No. 5 sporter of 23.6" length and 0.725" muzzle diameter.
It weighed 7 lbs 14 oz in the factory walnut stock, slick-barreled/bare/dry/empty.
I let the gunsmith keep that .35-cal take-off barrel. I never fired the rifle as .35 Whelen, before the re-barrel to .400 Whelen.


A were i contemplating a build or on the fence about a purchase, i'd be trying like hell to send Sir Ron a check for this 400 Whelen, what a beautiful clean rifle, just look at that thing lying there, Damn!
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by MadMooner
Just put 400 Whelen in the Googler and this popped up:



I think I’ve seen that feller around here before…..😀


Damn, LOL Mooner, i would like to apologize for the open shirt, it was a million degrees that day, had been tracking buffalo for 7 dang miles when we came upon this nice Antelope buck, speaking of accurate 400 Whelen fire form loads, i hit my knee and shot this buck in the chest at 198 yards with a 400gr Woodleigh round nose Weldcore, the bullet exited left of his nut sack out back, i think i would have laid down too ; ]



Hah! Fear not, Gunner. My sensibilities took no affront. At least they wouldn’t if I had any.

Nice shooting.
I’m ordering a .411 Shilen #5 on Tuesday unless somebody talks me into something better before then.

Would like a mould to cast some bullets for it. Something with a big flat meplat.
Any suggestions?
I use a .417 375 gr. LFN LBT.

I just run it through a .413 sizer.
Originally Posted by MadMooner
The 400 looks like a fun cartridge.

Is the cylindrical brass the way to go? I know Mainer on here has had luck with his similar chamber simply necking up 9.3x62 brass. It is a bit smaller in the shoulder and not full 2.5 length but obviously very available.


Yep, i found the cylindrical brass price to be rediculous. A simple neck up of cheap 9.3 prvi brass to take .410 swift a-frames rather than the .411 of the whelen. The shoulder was plenty to head space off of. I didnt even fireform.......just hunted with them.

Every rifle loony should run 41 cal bullets on a standard case. Not at targets and forums, but really BIG fkn animals.

[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]
[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13233780/3
Originally Posted by MadMooner
I’m ordering a .411 Shilen #5 on Tuesday unless somebody talks me into something better before then.

Would like a mould to cast some bullets for it. Something with a big flat meplat.
Any suggestions?


I had Accurate Molds cut me one with 320 and 400 grain cavities. Their 41-320C and 41-400C bullets. My rifle likes both. If I were doing it again I’d have bought two molds instead of one mold with different bullets.
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Originally Posted by MadMooner

Anybody have issues shooting .410 bullets like the AFrame in .411 barrels? Sounds like folks are getting good accuracy with them?

Ron- what mag box mods did you do to get a 3.6” mag box? Do you just throat long for extra chamber capacity?


Dang, skip a day here and things get interesting.

MadMooner,

No problems at all with accuracy of .410-cal JACKETED BULLETS
in the Shilen barrels with .404" bore, .411" groove, and 1:14 twist.
In the .400 Whelen-B with skinny No. 4 stainless, 25"-long barrel and longer throat,
the 210-gr/.410 XTP shot a tiny cloverleaf group at 100 yards, 3 shots into 0.309" on centers,
2731 fps with 58.0 grains of H4198 at 69 degrees F.

[Linked Image]

That is 5-yard uncorrected chrono velocity, average of 20 shots fired from offhand and bench.
That was my fireforming load after necking down and trimming the QualCart brass.
That made a good sharp shoulder, and a good plinking and varmint load.
No bullets vaporized on the way to the target.
That load should also work well for fireforming in the "standard" .400 Whelen as by Petrov/JGS/G&H.

I prefer to use the backward-loaded 210-grainer to fire-form .35 Whelen to .400 Whelen.
COL = 2.777" in standard .400 Whelen jams the bullet base into rifling.

On initial fire forming of Qual Cart brass the meplat forward, usual loading direction of the bullet is reliable,
in either standard .400 Whelen or .400 Whelen-B.
COL is 2.950" for normally loaded bullet in both standard .400 Whelen and .400 Whelen-B.

[Linked Image]

The proof load was tested only in the longer-throated, 3.6" COL .400 Whelen-B.
400-gr Woodleigh at +2400 fps.
Primer fell out when the action was opened.
The .400 Whelen-B survived proof.
I did not "proof" the standard .400 Whelen.
I will not recommend that load for service in any .400 Whelen. LOL.

As for magazine, 3.4" versus 3.6" in my M70, same can be done with Ruger M77 MkII and Hawkeye by
substituting an M77 RSM .375 H&H box in the shorter action, and then shorten the bolt-stop/ejector to .375 H&H timing.
Dave Scovill did that and Phil Shoemaker has that .375 H&H Ruger M77 MkII now.
I used a Duane Wiebe XRM box in my M70 and got one extra round down
versus what can be done by unblocking the standard box.

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Great shot on the impala Sir Jerry, as usual.

Originally Posted by gunner500

... were i contemplating a build or on the fence about a purchase, i'd be trying like hell to send Sir Ron a check for this 400 Whelen, what a beautiful clean rifle, just look at that thing lying there, Damn!

Since I now have such a .458 WM habit to feed
I will consider parting with the Ruger M77 Hawkeye "standard" .400 Whelen
(23.6" No. 5 Shilen chromoly, matte black Cerakote, no barrel sights, 1:14" twist)
and a set of CH4D dies, and a starter quantity of QualCart brass, negotiable.
It is all pristine.

[Linked Image]

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I'll be holding onto the .400 Whelen-B "Classic" and the .35 Whelen Pre-'64:

[Linked Image]

Too bad Winchester never factory chambered the .35 Whelen Pre'-64 M70.
I fixed up one of my own.
I started down this road in 2012 when THE GUNSMITH got a bee in his bonnet for building his own .400 Whelen on an M98,
so we shared reamer and brass costs, and he got to work out the bugs and teach me how to load the .400 Whelen,
and build my .400 Whelens.

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As mentioned by HawkI, a .416-caliber neck expander works on necking up the noncylindrical brass like .35 Whelen R-P brass:

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Velocity of that fireforming load (48.5 gr IMR-3031 with backwards 210-grainer) was a mere 1733 fps instrumental at 5 yards, 52 degrees F.
It could surely stand some hotting up to sharpen the shoulder better.

Below is Rusty McGee's use of .280 Remington R-P brass to make .400 Whelen by using Cream O' Wheat and pistol powder:
I don't do that and do not know his specifics of technique.

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Drawing from Michael Petrov's book:

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The original .400 Whelen of 1923 had shorter brass and the bullet was 0.409-caliber:

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Brass, whether .35 Whelen necked up and then necked down
or the cylindrical Qual Cart with proper headstamp for .400 Whelen necked down,
both will benefit from annealing before fire forming.
Shoulders will be sharper with less pressure required to form:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Some amazing info shared so far. I am really enjoying all of it. Much appreciated!!!
Im thankful, to have avoided the bat-sht crazy, cream of wheat method. No time around here for reduntant, hobbyist bllsht at the reloading bench.
I assume that comment was directed at me since I detailed the COW process in my original postings of my first work with the 400 Whelen.

When I first had my rifle I had neither dies nor brass. I had the rifle, still in the white. Anxious to begin working up loads the only option I had to create cases was the COW method. I loaded 16.8 grains of Bullseye under enough COW to fill the case. I used LC Match brass. And yes, I jammed a crayon in the neck to hold the COW in place. It was quicker and easier than trying to plug it with paraffin.

Quality Cartridge was weeks to months out on back ordered 400 Whelen. I had dies as well as an expanding die ordered but if I wished to be shooting my new rifle, COW was my option. And I neck sized with a 41 magnum die, using a collar on the ram as a stop to control the depth of neck sizing. Shooters will do whatever is necessary sometimes to get a rifle shooting.

Since acquiring dies and a goodly amount of Qual Cart as well as some Norma 30-06 cylindrical I’ve not needed to use the COW method. But finding myself in a similar situation again I’d use COW again without hesitation.
Originally Posted by MadMooner
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by MadMooner
Just put 400 Whelen in the Googler and this popped up:



I think I’ve seen that feller around here before…..😀


Damn, LOL Mooner, i would like to apologize for the open shirt, it was a million degrees that day, had been tracking buffalo for 7 dang miles when we came upon this nice Antelope buck, speaking of accurate 400 Whelen fire form loads, i hit my knee and shot this buck in the chest at 198 yards with a 400gr Woodleigh round nose Weldcore, the bullet exited left of his nut sack out back, i think i would have laid down too ; ]



Hah! Fear not, Gunner. My sensibilities took no affront. At least they wouldn’t if I had any.

Nice shooting.



LOL, Thanks MM,, and not trying to sound like a wayward soul out lost and headed to a boy george concert, but man when you get in the bush over there tracking game in the dust and searing heat you want to pull your shirt completely off, thorns be damned, something very special about Africa, you get pulled in and it never lets go.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Great shot on the impala Sir Jerry, as usual.

Originally Posted by gunner500

... were i contemplating a build or on the fence about a purchase, i'd be trying like hell to send Sir Ron a check for this 400 Whelen, what a beautiful clean rifle, just look at that thing lying there, Damn!

Since I now have such a .458 WM habit to feed
I will consider parting with the Ruger M77 Hawkeye "standard" .400 Whelen
(23.6" No. 5 Shilen chromoly, matte black Cerakote, no barrel sights, 1:14" twist)
and a set of CH4D dies, and a starter quantity of QualCart brass, negotiable.
It is all pristine.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

I'll be holding onto the .400 Whelen-B "Classic" and the .35 Whelen Pre-'64:

[Linked Image]

Too bad Winchester never factory chambered the .35 Whelen Pre'-64 M70.
I fixed up one of my own.


Thanks Sir Ron, and yes on the Ruger, i'd buy that thing in a heartbeat were i looking, a 1.75-6 Leupold in the lowest Ruger rings possible with everything from 300gr TSX at 2400 fps to 400gr Woodleighs at 2255, what a cool banger it would make, nice and light too, 300gr TSX's at 2400 fps would make an easy ALL game rig to 300+ yards..................HMMM, never thought i'd have three 458 Win Mags either ; ]
Sir Jerry,
She is off the market.
I dug her out of the safe and I am in luv again.
Here is Ms. Meika Shilen-Ruger the .400 Whelen posing for some cheesecake this morning:

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That is what a Shilen No. 5 sporter of .411-groove/.404-bore, 1:14" twist looks like at the muzzle
when cut to 23.6" length, for diameter of 0.725", with a hunter crown.
She is 7 pounds and 14 ounces naked and starving for ammo.
Her crown looks a little rough, might need a smoothing, but did not affect accuracy.
And then some functional fashion accessories: Banded front sight and sling stud.
That Ruger walnut stock is really quite a good compromise for iron sights and scope.
With barrel hardware and receiver sight added she will weigh a few ounces more.
She won't be under 8 pounds anymore, but when a girl matures she gains some weight in the right places.
.400 Whelen barrel hardware possibilities:

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As for ammo to feed the poor starving girl, here are some ingredients for home cooking:

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I never got a mould for .400 Whelen, since I acquired 200 cast bullets from Rusty McGee,
and have yet to shoot them.
I will fix that !

The Accurate Molds suggested by Mart look like the perfect picks.

41-320C, designed for .405 WCF friendliness:

[Linked Image]

41-400C, looks perfect for .400 Whelen:

[Linked Image]
Am I understanding that you are shooting the cast at the .413 diameter or resizing down to .410 or .411 from .413?

I have never resized before. Does it strip the gas check in the process? Will new properly sized gas checks be needed?

Also, for those looking to order QC brass, I just tried to order 5 bags (100 total from Grafs). At checkout they only had four so guessing now they have none. May be worth a call to QC to let them know there is some demand. I plan to call tomorrow myself.
Originally Posted by mart
I assume that comment was directed at me since I detailed the COW process in my original postings of my first work with the 400 Whelen.

When I first had my rifle I had neither dies nor brass. I had the rifle, still in the white. Anxious to begin working up loads the only option I had to create cases was the COW method. I loaded 16.8 grains of Bullseye under enough COW to fill the case. I used LC Match brass. And yes, I jammed a crayon in the neck to hold the COW in place. It was quicker and easier than trying to plug it with paraffin.

Quality Cartridge was weeks to months out on back ordered 400 Whelen. I had dies as well as an expanding die ordered but if I wished to be shooting my new rifle, COW was my option. And I neck sized with a 41 magnum die, using a collar on the ram as a stop to control the depth of neck sizing. Shooters will do whatever is necessary sometimes to get a rifle shooting.

Since acquiring dies and a goodly amount of Qual Cart as well as some Norma 30-06 cylindrical I’ve not needed to use the COW method. But finding myself in a similar situation again I’d use COW again without hesitation.


Mart, no jab at anybody, just the process to .400 whelen brass. My 9.3 brass simply necked up, was enough bllsht for me. I cant stand reloading, been doing so for 20 years. The less time at the bench, the better.
Lol. Mainer, I’m with ya.

Dicking around with forming brass is fun, for a minute, then I want to buy some [bleep] and just shoot. I’m a fan of making schit simple.

Again, is there any reason not to run a 9.3x62 reamer into a .411 barrel and just use 9.3 brass with a .41 cal bullet shoved into the neck and lands? It honestly seems like the better route if the shoulder is sufficient. Any capacity difference would be next to nil.

Shoulder is I think .451 instead of .458.
7 thou gonna skunk up the works?

I’m wanting a big bore on an old school Mauser.
400 grains at 2200 is perfect for what I want. Just trying to get there as efficiently as possible.

As well, sorry if I missed it, but what is a 400 Whelen B?
Whelen Brown?
As I said, in the early stages there was no brass and no dies. COW and a 41 mag die was the route to shooting my rifle.

I'm on the other end of the spectrum from you though. I love reloading. And have been doing for 46 years. I have it quiet in my gun room. No radio, no TV. Just quiet. After my careers with all the ambient noise, escaping to the gun room helps me relax. Even though I'm retired and out of the noise, there's only so much TV noise I can take. It feels like an intrusion. Just the opposite of my wife. She has to have it on all day. I don't love all aspects of it. Trimming brass is a pain. Swaging primer pockets on 5.56 brass ain't the funnest thing in the world either.
The 400 Brown Whelen has a little less neck, (I think) and a .461 shoulder as opposed to the .458 shoulder of the 400 Whelen in its original form. The 30-06 is .441 at the shoulder.
Madmooner,
My prvi 9.3 brass measures .454 at the shoulder. Ive no use for .411 bullets because i like the .410 swift a-frames. I also use .410 pistol bullets for target practice.

Been up till midnight for the last three days handloading all sorts of pistol and rifle ammo. I hope to never touch this time sucking, garbage for at lesst another three years. 40-50 hours of handloading, should buy me three years.
quote MedRiver: "Am I understanding that you are shooting the cast at the .413 diameter or resizing down to .410 or .411 from .413?"

Cast bullets work best for accuracy and non-leading if they are +.002" (greater) in diameter than the rifle barrel groove diameter.
Jacketed bullets and monometals work best at groove diameter or maybe even - .002" (lesser) than groove diameter.
Certainly a .410" diameter jacketed or monometal bullet will do very well in a .411"-grooved barrel.


"I have never resized before. Does it strip the gas check in the process?"

No. The gas check is actually applied and crimped into place as the cast lead bullet is sized by a base-pusher sizing die,
like LEE or CH4D. Very simple and easy. Even a caveman can do it.


"Will new properly sized gas checks be needed?"

Maybe, depending on the mould.
The Hornady .416-caliber gas check may do.
I got some .41-caliber gas checks from Bullet Swaging Supply, Inc. in Louisianna.
I use those on my .397" cast bullets for my .395-caliber wildcats.
I do not have a 41-400C mould form Accurate Molds ... yet.


"Also, for those looking to order QC brass, I just tried to order 5 bags (100 total from Grafs). At checkout they only had four so guessing now they have none.
May be worth a call to QC to let them know there is some demand. I plan to call tomorrow myself."

That is good to know.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
quote MedRiver: "Am I understanding that you are shooting the cast at the .413 diameter or resizing down to .410 or .411 from .413?"

Cast bullets work best for accuracy and non-leading if they are +.002" (greater) in diameter than the rifle barrel groove diameter.
Jacketed bullets and monometals work best at groove diameter or maybe even - .002" (lesser) than groove diameter.
Certainly a .410" diameter jacketed or monometal bullet will do very well in a .411"-grooved barrel.


"I have never resized before. Does it strip the gas check in the process?"

No. The gas check is actually applied and crimped into place as the cast lead bullet is sized by a base-pusher sizing die,
like LEE or CH4D. Very simple and easy. Even a caveman can do it.


"Will new properly sized gas checks be needed?"

Maybe, depending on the mould.
The Hornady .416-caliber gas check may do.
I got some .41-caliber gas checks from Bullet Swaging Supply, Inc. in Louisianna.
I use those on my .397" cast bullets for my .395-caliber wildcats.
I do not have a 41-400C mould form Accurate Molds ... yet.


"Also, for those looking to order QC brass, I just tried to order 5 bags (100 total from Grafs). At checkout they only had four so guessing now they have none.
May be worth a call to QC to let them know there is some demand. I plan to call tomorrow myself."

That is good to know.


Thanks for clearing that up for me! Do you find the lead bullets spring back at all the way you have described jacketed bullets doing?
Originally Posted by MadMooner

As well, sorry if I missed it, but what is a 400 Whelen B?
Whelen Brown?


See the reamer drawings at about the middle of page one of this thread.

.400 Whelen = .400 Whelen "standard" as per Michael Petrov chamber casting of an original G&H rifle.
That is the A-Team .400 Whelen.
That chamber had changed significantly since the 1923 version by Townsend Whelen.

.400 Whelen-B = .400 Whelen-Berry NOT .400 Brown Whelen.
The .400 Whelen-B is the B-Team .400 Whelen, my design.
It uses same reloading dies but different chamber reamer than the A-Team.
Same shoulder diameter.

Differences:

A-Team chamber length minimum = 2.501", max brass 2.490" trim to 2.480".
B-Team chamber length minimum = 2.509", max brass 2.490" trim to 2.480"
B-Team has 0.008" greater room for brass length stretching on firing or could have 0.008" longer brass max, however you like it.

A-Team parallel-sided free-bore is 0.412" diameter and 0.188" long
B-Team parallel-sided free-bore is 0.412" diameter and 0.300" long

A-Team chamber neck taper is 0.004": Neck-2 (at mouth) = 0.437" and Neck-1 (at shoulder juncture) = 0.441"
B-Team chamber neck taper is 0.001": Neck-2 (at mouth) = 0.437" and Neck-1 (at shoulder juncture) = 0.438"

The B-Team chamber gives a 0.003" STRONGER SHOULDER.
It is silly to give up 0.003" of shoulder to neck-1 difference as in the A-Team chamber reamer.
Undeniable, but of little consequence.
Also of little consequence is the miniscule increase in free-bore length and a specified Maximum COL of 3.600" for the B-Team.


I promise to not mention the .400 Whelen-Berry again.
I am sticking with the A-Team on this thread henceforth.
Originally Posted by MedRiver

Thanks for clearing that up for me! Do you find the lead bullets spring back at all the way you have described jacketed bullets doing?


Welcome.

Soft lead alloy bullets might have no spring-back and stay at the nominal size of the sizer.

My hard alloy (BHN 25) springs back by 0.001".
I push them through a 0.460" sizer die and they come out as 0.461".
That is a happy thing.

Most .458 WinMag rifles have a groove diameter of 0.459".
SAAMI standard is 0.458" MINIMUM groove diameter, so 0.459" groove diameter is "in spec."
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Jerry,
She is off the market.
I dug her out of the safe and I am in luv again.
Here is Ms. Meika Shilen-Ruger the .400 Whelen posing for some cheesecake this morning:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

That is what a Shilen No. 5 sporter of .411-groove/.404-bore, 1:14" twist looks like at the muzzle
when cut to 23.6" length, for diameter of 0.725", with a hunter crown.
She is 7 pounds and 14 ounces naked and starving for ammo.
Her crown looks a little rough, might need a smoothing, but did not affect accuracy.
And then some functional fashion accessories: Banded front sight and sling stud.
That Ruger walnut stock is really quite a good compromise for iron sights and scope.
With barrel hardware and receiver sight added she will weigh a few ounces more.
She won't be under 8 pounds anymore, but when a girl matures she gains some weight in the right places.


LOL, man i knew it Sir Ron, couldn't figure on how a rifle that sweet just sit there unused, cant wait to see the finished product, it's going to be a dandy.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by MedRiver

Thanks for clearing that up for me! Do you find the lead bullets spring back at all the way you have described jacketed bullets doing?


Welcome.

Soft lead alloy bullets might have no spring-back and stay at the nominal size of the sizer.

My hard alloy (BHN 25) springs back by 0.001".
I push them through a 0.460" sizer die and they come out as 0.461".
That is a happy thing.

Most .458 WinMag rifles have a groove diameter of 0.459".
SAAMI standard is 0.458" MINIMUM groove diameter, so 0.459" groove diameter is "in spec."


Again, thanks for all the help. Lots of new territory for me on this project. Not quite ready to start casting my own but the number of .416 cast bullets available seems pretty decent and most are pretty heavy.
Was getting my specs ready for pac-nor and thought a discussion about twist rate might be helpful. Pac-nor only offers an 8 groove 1:16". I believe Shilen only offers 1:14". I have been exchanging PMs with a fellow that had a re-bore done at 1:18" and his shoots everything well up to 400 grains. He indicate that Fred Zeglins 411 Hawke was spec'd at 1:20.

Is there a twist rate that doesn't work, lol?

Anybody having trouble with heavies in a 1:16?
Looking at cast options, I called Montana Bullet Works (www.montanabulletworks.com). They have a couple good looking .416 diameter bullets in 350 and 400 grains. I ordered 100 of each to resize to .412 or .413.

Bruce at MBW recommended NOE bullet molds (www.noebulletmolds.com) as a source for economical sizing dies that will work with a single stage press. He said they use them in their commercial operation. One die body, a push rod and then whatever bushing you want in .001 increments. I ordered the die body, push rod and 5 bushings for $118.75 and they were in stock. Cast should be simple. Will see how they work on a well lubed jacketed bullet.
MedRiver,

I do not recall gunner500's twist, or whether it is a JES rebore or what.
Maybe he will remind us?

Rusty McGee and I went through the same thing you are going through on the barrel selection.
Shilen was it for us.
No. 5 sporter, 1:14" twist, just because.
First was chromoly.
Second one they slipped up and made a No. 4 stainless one for me.
Strangely they decided they would not do that anymore.
Maybe they got wind of my +2400 fps 400-gr Woodleigh proof load ?

I once got excited about getting some N.O.E. sizers, but they did not have anything I needed at the time,
since I did not know about them when I was collecting sizers from LEE and CH4D.
I am going to keep them in mind for future,
as well as checking out their moulds for the .400 Whelen.

A-Team all the way.
I gotta think about a backup to my .458 WinMag.
The .400 Whelen will be a nice one for old age.
This looks a lot like the mould Rusty McGee has had good results with:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

This could be a great fire-former, bison-killer, silhouetter:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

They are .412" in clip-on WW alloy.
Would be .413" to .414" cast in my hard alloy, maybe even .415" after PC-painted.
That would be perfect for sizing down to .413" for smokeless cast bullet loads.
My previous comments on bullet sizing were about smokeless loads, of course.
BPCR and paper-patching is a different kettle of fish.
Bill Bagwell and gunner500 taught me all I know about that.
I still have plenty to learn about that.

Sir Ron, paper patch bullets can be used with smokeless powder as well. Several years ago Ross Seyfried wrote an article about using paper patch bullets in smokeless rifle cartridges
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Was getting my specs ready for pac-nor and thought a discussion about twist rate might be helpful. Pac-nor only offers an 8 groove 1:16". I believe Shilen only offers 1:14". I have been exchanging PMs with a fellow that had a re-bore done at 1:18" and his shoots everything well up to 400 grains. He indicate that Fred Zeglins 411 Hawke was spec'd at 1:20.

Is there a twist rate that doesn't work, lol?

Anybody having trouble with heavies in a 1:16?


Good work MedRiver, my 400 Whelen barrel is a 16 twist Kreiger, no problems at all with 400gr Woodleigh bullets, FWIW, my 40 cal Sharps rifles have 16 twist, they'll easily stabilize 425gr bullets even with low black powder velocities of 1300 fps, i cant see you having any trouble with 16 twist.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
MedRiver,

I do not recall gunner500's twist, or whether it is a JES rebore or what.
Maybe he will remind us?

Rusty McGee and I went through the same thing you are going through on the barrel selection.
Shilen was it for us.
No. 5 sporter, 1:14" twist, just because.
First was chromoly.
Second one they slipped up and made a No. 4 stainless one for me.
Strangely they decided they would not do that anymore.
Maybe they got wind of my +2400 fps 400-gr Woodleigh proof load ?

I once got excited about getting some N.O.E. sizers, but they did not have anything I needed at the time,
since I did not know about them when I was collecting sizers from LEE and CH4D.
I am going to keep them in mind for future,
as well as checking out their moulds for the .400 Whelen.

A-Team all the way.
I gotta think about a backup to my .458 WinMag.
The .400 Whelen will be a nice one for old age.


16 twist Kreiger Sir.
Originally Posted by jwp475

Sir Ron, paper patch bullets can be used with smokeless powder as well. Several years ago Ross Seyfried wrote an article about using paper patch bullets in smokeless rifle cartridges


Agreed, Saint Bagwell worked up both paper patch and grease groove loads with 3031 powder for folks with 40-65 and 45-70 rifles, one was a guy that lived in Alaska and used the load in his '86 Winchester to kill several bears and caribou, the other was a lady hunter in Texas with a red dot sight on her Marlin lever action, low recoil, very effective load for her.
What the heck is with all the sir, saint and lady stuff?

Sir is for the Knights Of The Square table.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
This looks a lot like the mould Rusty McGee has had good results with:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

This could be a great fire-former, bison-killer, silhouetter:

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

They are .412" in clip-on WW alloy.
Would be .413" to .414" cast in my hard alloy, maybe even .415" after PC-painted.
That would be perfect for sizing down to .413" for smokeless cast bullet loads.
My previous comments on bullet sizing were about smokeless loads, of course.
BPCR and paper-patching is a different kettle of fish.
Bill Bagwell and gunner500 taught me all I know about that.
I still have plenty to learn about that.

That flatnose one should kill well but I wouldn't waste any money on the pointy one for any reason but plinking. You guys use .416" Hornady gascheks?..mb
Originally Posted by Mike78
What the heck is with all the sir, saint and lady stuff?


What jwp475 aka Sir John said.
Knights of the Square Table are champions of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Saint is for those Knights gone on to the happy Hunting Ground.
Lady is just for good manners, not all is tongue in cheek.

BTW, Sir John,
Not saying smokeless won't work with paper patched bullets.
It is just a different kettle of fish regarding bullet diameters and whether the bullets are
heavy-for-caliber and soft versus light-for-caliber and hard,
and other variations to boot,
including jacketed versus cast lead, and BP versus smokeless.

I do have an article by Ross Seyfried filed away, pertinent to paper patch and smokeless loads:
"Paper Patched Bullets" HANDLOADER 220 Dec-Jan 2003, pp. 58-65.

"Modern rifles are often quite happy to use patched bullets.
Once again, where it might be difficult to get reasonable accuracy
from a .30-06 with bare lead bullets and velocity over 2000 fps,
it can be very easy to approach the magical inch groups with paper patches.
Further, while I have not pushed the system as far,
others have achieved reasonable accuracy out of 'magnums' with velocity over 3,000 fps.
I had a stock Ruger No. 1 .458 Winchester Magnum that was absolutely in love with patched bullets.
Inch groups were the norm at 2,100 to 2,200 fps, even with pure lead bullets.

"One more bizarre use of paper patches, in conjunction with 'modern rifles'
is making undersize jacketed bullets fit the rifle.
I have successfully fitted .458-inch bullets to .470 Nitro rifles ..."
Originally Posted by Magnum_Bob
... You guys use .416" Hornady gascheks?..mb


Rusty McGee used Hornady .416 gas checks on his cast bullets sized to .413".
Better to be a few thou bigger than a thou or two too small with the gas checks.

Sir Ron, should have known you were way ahead of me.
Thanks for the twist rate feedback! I will get the barrel ordered tomorrow. No real loyalty to pac-nor…they are just the only ones willing to do a lighter contour. Can’t quite bring myself to warm up to the idea of packing around a #5.

PacNor makes good barrels
Mines a 24” #5 Shilen. I haven’t minded packing it. It wouldn’t be my choice for a sheep hunt but I pack it caribou and moose hunting.

Perhaps you might consider an extra bowl of wheaties on occasion. 😁
This thread is full of good G2. Man, it’s such an easy cartridge it seems.

Was Elmer Keith’s 400 on a Springfield?
Originally Posted by beretzs
This thread is full of good G2. Man, it’s such an easy cartridge it seems.

Was Elmer Keith’s 400 on a Springfield?


I was up close to it when they had it at the Boise Cabelas. I’m pretty sure it was. The 400 wasn’t on my radar strong at the time so I didn’t look real close at it.
Originally Posted by mart
Mines a 24” #5 Shilen. I haven’t minded packing it. It wouldn’t be my choice for a sheep hunt but I pack it caribou and moose hunting.

Perhaps you might consider an extra bowl of wheaties on occasion. 😁


Ha! Probably the best advice I have got so far on this thread wink
Got the dies ordered yesterday which they had in stock. I exchanged a couple emails with CH4D to verify the dies I would receive would match the reamer I plan to use for the project.

So far I have jacketed pistol bullets coming, 350 and 400 cast bullets, 80 QC cases, bullet sizing dies, 2-Die set, an action, stock and scope (Leupold 2-7x33 with heavy duplex).

Thinking all I need is the tube, reamer and some time at my ‘smith’s while I wait to track down some jacketed 300-400 grain bullets. May be able to get familiar with it this summer and hunt it a hit next fall.
Congratulations MedRiver, you got it lined out well.

A 1:16" twist might be a bit better for cast bullet shooting than 1:14",
but somehow I will manage to get by, if I use hard alloy and powder-coat paint.

This bullet designed for the .400 H&H will also do for a .400 Whelen, from Accurate Molds:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Yes, on the N.O.E. 412-363-FN GC, that is the Rusty McGee bullet with Hornady .416 gas check.
The gas check heel on that one is 0.397" diameter.

And I am no longer infatuated with the N.O.E. 412-400-RN PB, thanks to Magnum Bob.
Prefer the AM 41-410HG now.
The gas check heel on that one is 0.391" diameter and might require a Gator Gas Check meant for .41-cal handgun bullets and such.
Will have to try and see, unless sumbuddy who know ?
Originally Posted by mart
Originally Posted by beretzs
This thread is full of good G2. Man, it’s such an easy cartridge it seems.

Was Elmer Keith’s 400 on a Springfield?


I was up close to it when they had it at the Boise Cabelas. I’m pretty sure it was. The 400 wasn’t on my radar strong at the time so I didn’t look real close at it.


Yes, it was a Springfield built by James Howe of G&H in 1924, right after Townie announced it in 1923.
Elmer wrote about it in the April 15,1924 edition of THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN.

Elmer was still writing about it in THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN January 1936, starting on page 18.

Maybe this is legible enough to read with magnification, maybe not:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
The 400 Whelen in Africa, written up in early 1924 by Townsend Whelen, THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN,
don't strain your eyes:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

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[Linked Image]

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I do not have the articles themselves to get better scans.
Those files came to me over the internet from Michael Petrov himself, Leader of The A-Team.
Good man, may he Rest in Peace.
"I like to do all my hunting before my shooting" as timely now as then..mb
Thanks for sharing those articles Riflecrank. Very interesting reading.
Thanks for the article Riflecrank!

Med, welcome to the club!
Yes, many Thanks Riflecrank, imagine what can be done with today's bullets Gents.
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter


Med, welcome to the club!


Thanks! Got the barrel ordered today. Pac-nor 1:16” #4 stainless super-match with a few tweaks to the contour to get me to a 21” finished length with a little shorter shank.
Outstanding. You’re about to embark on one of the most enjoyable rifle projects. I have thoroughly enjoyed my 400 Whelen journey. I’ll never get to use mine in Africa but I have many more seasons here in Alaska to go, God willing.
Glad those of you with good eyes were able to read those articles.
Originally Posted by mart
Outstanding. You’re about to embark on one of the most enjoyable rifle projects. I have thoroughly enjoyed my 400 Whelen journey. I’ll never get to use mine in Africa but I have many more seasons here in Alaska to go, God willing.


You're the very reason i had my 400 Whelen built Mart, reading about your hunts was very interesting, when those 98 Mauser Dumoulin actions became available it was a done deal ; ]

Thanks!
Originally Posted by mart
Outstanding. You’re about to embark on one of the most enjoyable rifle projects. I have thoroughly enjoyed my 400 Whelen journey. I’ll never get to use mine in Africa but I have many more seasons here in Alaska to go, God willing.


With any luck mine will be on a bush plane heading towards moose country in your neck of the woods Sep 2023.
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by mart
Outstanding. You’re about to embark on one of the most enjoyable rifle projects. I have thoroughly enjoyed my 400 Whelen journey. I’ll never get to use mine in Africa but I have many more seasons here in Alaska to go, God willing.


You're the very reason i had my 400 Whelen built Mart, reading about your hunts was very interesting, when those 98 Mauser Dumoulin actions became available it was a done deal ; ]

Thanks!


Yup. Same reason it’s never left my brain as well.

Might need to call Krieger and get a barrel on order. With the long wait, it’ll give me time to sort out the rest.
Yep, you may want too check with SARCO to see if they have any more of those actions left.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter


Med, welcome to the club!


Thanks! Got the barrel ordered today. Pac-nor 1:16” #4 stainless super-match with a few tweaks to the contour to get me to a 21” finished length with a little shorter shank.


Which did you order? Bore and Groove? I was thinking a Krieger #4?
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter


Med, welcome to the club!


Thanks! Got the barrel ordered today. Pac-nor 1:16” #4 stainless super-match with a few tweaks to the contour to get me to a 21” finished length with a little shorter shank.


Which did you order? Bore and Groove? I was thinking a Krieger #4?


I'd go with a 12 twist. 12 twist gives the best straight line penetration in 416 caliber.
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter


Med, welcome to the club!


Thanks! Got the barrel ordered today. Pac-nor 1:16” #4 stainless super-match with a few tweaks to the contour to get me to a 21” finished length with a little shorter shank.


Which did you order? Bore and Groove? I was thinking a Krieger #4?


I'd go with a 12 twist. 12 twist gives the best straight line penetration in 416 caliber.




JWP, you know I ain’t scared of twist so it’ll be a 12 or better. Just me.
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by mart
Outstanding. You’re about to embark on one of the most enjoyable rifle projects. I have thoroughly enjoyed my 400 Whelen journey. I’ll never get to use mine in Africa but I have many more seasons here in Alaska to go, God willing.


You're the very reason i had my 400 Whelen built Mart, reading about your hunts was very interesting, when those 98 Mauser Dumoulin actions became available it was a done deal ; ]

Thanks!


Yup. Same reason it’s never left my brain as well.

Might need to call Krieger and get a barrel on order. With the long wait, it’ll give me time to sort out the rest.


Thanks guys. I was just wanting to share my 400 journey. I have truly enjoyed following the journeys of other 400 fans. There’s been a lot of good information put forth in recent years.
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter


Med, welcome to the club!


Thanks! Got the barrel ordered today. Pac-nor 1:16” #4 stainless super-match with a few tweaks to the contour to get me to a 21” finished length with a little shorter shank.


Which did you order? Bore and Groove? I was thinking a Krieger #4?


I'd go with a 12 twist. 12 twist gives the best straight line penetration in 416 caliber.




JWP, you know I ain’t scared of twist so it’ll be a 12 or better. Just me.




I'm going to rebarrel my 416 and I'm going 10 twist
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter


Med, welcome to the club!


Thanks! Got the barrel ordered today. Pac-nor 1:16” #4 stainless super-match with a few tweaks to the contour to get me to a 21” finished length with a little shorter shank.


Which did you order? Bore and Groove? I was thinking a Krieger #4?


.411 bore, 8 groove. The only option they had. I was surprised at how limited twist options were…seemed a lot of manufacturers only offered one. One I forgot to check was McGowen (my .25/06 wears a McGowen) and I checked tonight and they have several twist options.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter


Med, welcome to the club!


Thanks! Got the barrel ordered today. Pac-nor 1:16” #4 stainless super-match with a few tweaks to the contour to get me to a 21” finished length with a little shorter shank.


Which did you order? Bore and Groove? I was thinking a Krieger #4?


.411 bore, 8 groove. The only option they had. I was surprised at how limited twist options were…seemed a lot of manufacturers only offered one. One I forgot to check was McGowen (my .25/06 wears a McGowen) and I checked tonight and they have several twist options.



Pac Nor will do any twist you want. They make their own buttons in house . Therefore they can make a button for any twist rate you want.
Interesting. I specifically asked if 1:16 was the only option and was told it was. The gentleman I spoke with did indicate they are still limited on tooling after the fire and slowly getting everything back in order.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Interesting. I specifically asked if 1:16 was the only option and was told it was. The gentleman I spoke with did indicate they are still limited on tooling after the fire and slowly getting everything back in order.


That's true,about limited because of the fire. They lost their other twist buttons in the fire. I was told they just needed to make another one. I told them that I wanted a 10 but could settle for a 12 if I had to.
Any of you guys read the Sports Afield article by the guy that bought Elmer’s 400 Whelen? My copy is boxed up, so I can’t reference it but the new owner took it elk hunting with some of Elmer’s reloads. He had to make a slight sight adjustment when checking zero. A Speer bullet over WW748......maybe 350 gr? Do you think Speer made those especially for Elmer? My guess is probably so.
The new owner successfully took a nice bull elk and said he’d probably use the rest of the loads assembled by Elmer for more hunting. When those were used up, he would retire the rifle.
Originally Posted by Dave93
Any of you guys read the Sports Afield article by the guy that bought Elmer’s 400 Whelen? My copy is boxed up, so I can’t reference it but the new owner took it elk hunting with some of Elmer’s reloads. He had to make a slight sight adjustment when checking zero. A Speer bullet over WW748......maybe 350 gr? Do you think Speer made those especially for Elmer? My guess is probably so.
The new owner successfully took a nice bull elk and said he’d probably use the rest of the loads assembled by Elmer for more hunting. When those were used up, he would retire the rifle.


I haven’t read it but man, I’d like to!
X2
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Interesting. I specifically asked if 1:16 was the only option and was told it was. The gentleman I spoke with did indicate they are still limited on tooling after the fire and slowly getting everything back in order.


That's true,about limited because of the fire. They lost their other twist buttons in the fire. I was told they just needed to make another one. I told them that I wanted a 10 but could settle for a 12 if I had to.


They responded today that they can do other twists but the buttons are $500 each. I told them for $500 I would be happy with my 1:16 smile
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Interesting. I specifically asked if 1:16 was the only option and was told it was. The gentleman I spoke with did indicate they are still limited on tooling after the fire and slowly getting everything back in order.


That's true,about limited because of the fire. They lost their other twist buttons in the fire. I was told they just needed to make another one. I told them that I wanted a 10 but could settle for a 12 if I had to.


They responded today that they can do other twists but the buttons are $500 each. I told them for $500 I would be happy with my 1:16 smile


I meant to call Krieger today to see what they’d do. If I think about it I’ll do it Monday.

Anybody ever called Benchmark about what they might do? They did a 1-9.5 .358 barrel for me.

I talked a Pac Nor employee today and he said that he thought his boss making a 10 twist button for .416 caliber.
Mart is the reason I have one as well haha. That 30 page thread on AR piqued my interest to jump on the bandwagon
Because of this thread, i'm going to dig my 400 Whelen out of the safe, wipe it off, chrono a load, shoot three Woodleigh softs at 100, one Woodleigh solid at 100, then one solid at 50 with the express sights off hickory shooting sticks, measure muzzle dia. on the 23 inch barrel, weigh it on Wifes canning scales, then see if Riflecrank will post us up some pics, may give you guys on a build some ideas.

I can say ft lbs of muzzle energy is basically a useless term to me, sells a lot of rifles, pistols and ammo, but, 4500 ft lbs of it with a 400gr bullet at 2255 fps on basically an '06 sized hull is another testament of extreme efficiency, i'm no Elephant or Rhino hunter, but wouldn't hesitate either with my rifle and loads, that also means any critter under those two is more than fair game, and that's anything that walks. smile

It's a little basher!
Gunner,

You are so right. Essentially we have a magazine fed 450-400 Nitro Express. Same ballistics with the same bullets. I don’t know that I’ve ever hear a disparaging word about the 450-400. It made its bones and then some.

Originally Posted by gunner500
Because of this thread, i'm going to dig my 400 Whelen out of the safe, wipe it off, chrono a load, shoot three Woodleigh softs at 100, one Woodleigh solid at 100, then one solid at 50 with the express sights off hickory shooting sticks, measure muzzle dia. on the 23 inch barrel, weigh it on Wifes canning scales, then see if Riflecrank will post us up some pics, may give you guys on a build some ideas.

I can say ft lbs of muzzle energy is basically a useless term to me, sells a lot of rifles, pistols and ammo, but, 4500 ft lbs of it with a 400gr bullet at 2255 fps on basically an '06 sized hull is another testament of extreme efficiency, i'm no Elephant or Rhino hunter, but wouldn't hesitate either with my rifle and loads, that also means any critter under those two is more than fair game, and that's anything that walks. smile

It's a little basher!


Looking forward to the shooting report and pics!

Looking forward to torching off a few of my own later this year. I am thinking when I eventually draw a bison permit this would be a fun candidate for the job….just because.
Looks like Buffalo Arms has cylinder brass in stock.

https://www.buffaloarms.com/30-06-cylindrical-reformed-cas-3006cyl.html

Little cheaper then QC. The pic shows it as Hornady .35 Whelen but who knows.
SirJerry,
Please do!
We need to have your CFE223 400-grainer load specifics in full detail to put up at www.ammoguide. com.
I am the .400 Whelen Secretary of Load Data there by default.
I will post a bunch more on the.400 Whelen later today.
Originally Posted by mart
Gunner,

You are so right. Essentially we have a magazine fed 450-400 Nitro Express. Same ballistics with the same bullets. I don’t know that I’ve ever hear a disparaging word about the 450-400. It made its bones and then some.


You bet Mart, i'll also hazard a guess we're at the old Kynoch factory loads for the 404 Jeffrey, iirc they were 400gr at 2150 fps, as we all know, 40 cal and 400 grains from 2050 to 2400 fps [416 Rigby] has been getting it all done in Africa for well over 100 years, in fact, one of my PH's said 40 cal and 400 grains is one of the top penetrators in all of Africa, man i like that.

MedRiver, i hope to read about your buffalo hunt and see pics, that'll be a blast, let me get you some casehead and rim measurements of the Qual-Cart cylindrical brass to make sure the Baco reformed stuff is correct in size, i want full chamber support [snug casehead] running the pressures i run in my rifle.

Sir Ron, you bet, and Thank You Sir, i'll start taking pics, measurements and chrono shortly! cool will have to wait till tomorrow to do some shooting.

And ten four on the load data, i'll grab my load book ; ]

Gunner500, what about a Hammer 350 or 400 in the Whelen?
Haven't looked into those buddy, do they make .410/.411 dia bullets? if so,, they may be a real deal, as would 300gr TSX at 2400 fps, that's some easy 300 yard all game hunting right there.
Gunner500 said "Haven't looked into those buddy, do they make .410/.411 dia bullets? if so,, they may be a real deal, as would 300gr TSX at 2400 fps, that's some easy 300 yard all game hunting right there."

Gunner and all; the factory standard for my Winchester 1895 .405 WCF is a .411 300 grain bullet at 2200 fps and it is easy to safely hand load higher than that.

I found that a 300 grain North Fork bullet at that velocity is deadly on water buffalo and all other game in the US. So, I loaded my .405 WCF with 400 grain .411 Woodie Weldcores to 2100 fps and went to Africa and killed a Cape Buff. This is the velocity equal of the well known 450/400 double rifle which has taken all the game in Africa. It is also 400 Whelen velocity, therefore the sky is the limit for you Wheelies in the US, Africa, and elsewhere!!! Also true for my .405 WCF with appropriate bullets.
Good stuff CRS, glad to hear all that, just in from pics and chronoing, 400gr Woodleigh broke 2267 fps 20 minutes ago, hows that for stability in ammo loaded for Safari back in the summer of 2015? cool

As we always say, it wont spoil!

BTW, 12 fps extreme spread has never been a bad thing, pics are on the way to Sir Ron as we speak.
Originally Posted by crshelton
Gunner500 said "Haven't looked into those buddy, do they make .410/.411 dia bullets? if so,, they may be a real deal, as would 300gr TSX at 2400 fps, that's some easy 300 yard all game hunting right there."

Gunner and all; the factory standard for my Winchester 1895 .405 WCF is a .411 300 grain bullet at 2200 fps and it is easy to safely hand load higher than that.

I found that a 300 grain North Fork bullet at that velocity is deadly on water buffalo and all other game in the US. So, I loaded my .405 WCF with 400 grain .411 Woodie Weldcores to 2100 fps and went to Africa and killed a Cape Buff. This is the velocity equal of the well known 450/400 double rifle which has taken all the game in Africa. It is also 400 Whelen velocity, therefore the sky is the limit for you Wheelies in the US, Africa, and elsewhere!!! Also true for my .405 WCF with appropriate bullets.



Olsa Johnson killed 3 Cape Buffalo 🐃 and turned the heard as her husband filmed with 1895 Winchester in 405
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Nice^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 18 pics just landed at Sir Rons, it'll be good stuff for the guys here building, or thinking about building a 400 Whelen, it is a little hammer, plain and simple.
It is an amazing work of art, wait for all 18 and then if questions gunner500 can elaborate.
His rifle may be a roadmap for others.

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Some reframing of above for emphasis:

Below is a 2.490" case length crimped into a 400-gr bullet ready to fire for first time.
The caliper is spread 2.501" wide.
The reamer chamber length MINIMUM is 2.501", but a few thou of slop in that direction would not be harmful.
One should never let his brass grow longer than 2.490" to avoid a pressure excursion.
Trim to minimum length of 2.480" to 2.485" for safety.
Also, gunner500 may get away with hunting with his fire-forming loads,
but his rifle and die combo may be special, you never know about those tolerances with slop or lack of slop.
Best to fire form your brass with a paper-punching and rabbit hunting bullet
then make serious hunting ammo out of the first reload of said brass.

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What I have to say about photo below: Wow.
I will enter that load at www.ammoguide.com

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The fire-formed case is a beautiful thing, ready for serious work.
What was that thing about form following function?
In this CASE, function follows FORM, pun intended.

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Just a reminder of the many possibles for .400 Whelen bullets: Any .416-caliber bullet, and there are many.
If Sir Jerry has a hankering for some .411" Nosler partitions made from the 400-grainer .416s, no problemo.

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Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Just a reminder of the many possibles for .400 Whelen bullets: Any .416-caliber bullet, and there are many.
If Sir Jerry has a hankering for some .411" Nosler partitions made from the 400-grainer .416s, no problemo.

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You’re an expensive friend to hang around RC. whistle
And man, Gunner that is a sweetheart. What a great set up.
Many Thanks for posting the pics Sir Ron, and also the offer to draw down some 416's to 411, i appreciate that very much, that partition at 2255 should be a mighty blow striker, speaking of velocities, i dont know what your magic formula is for converting to true muzzle velocity, if 2267 fps at 18 yards away, i was wondering what the true velocity/energy numbers would be, that fired hull on the chrono is a thing of beauty, the primer is perfect, no bolt raceway smear, no firing pin protrusion, the case fell from the chamber like they always have, and pockets remain tight, casehead measurement before and after firing remains negligible.

Notice the load recipe workup, at 68gr i was about to fall into a node spot and wasn't even looking for one in a 250 yard hunting rifle, 65, if i would have loaded 66, 67 and 68 grains gave a rise of only 20 fps per grain of powder, i knew when i picked CFE-223 i'd most likely have a winner with the 400 Whelen, the powder is very compact and dense, packs really well in the case, and to my mind any powder with a burn rate slower than Varget in what is a near straight wall hull will indeed behave like a very slow burning powder in an overbore cartridge.

Thanks for the tip on trim length, i'll go back and trim all fired cases to 2..480 inch and call it good for i bet several more firings, the cases shouldn't grow much at all with that abrupt shoulder, speaking of shoulder, i'll take .459" all day long as i only size .411" length of the neck on fired brass.

That rifle is a little 9.5 lb all up with 6 rounds on board, accurate, great functioning machine, my old 'Smith did a fine job as usual.

Thanks again Sir,

Gunner
Originally Posted by gunner500
Many Thanks for posting the pics Sir Ron, and also the offer to draw down some 416's to 411, i appreciate that very much, that partition at 2255 should be a mighty blow striker, speaking of velocities, i dont know what your magic formula is for converting to true muzzle velocity, if 2267 fps at 18 yards away, i was wondering what the true velocity/energy numbers would be, that fired hull on the chrono is a thing of beauty, the primer is perfect, no bolt raceway smear, no firing pin protrusion, the case fell from the chamber like they always have, and pockets remain tight, casehead measurement before and after firing remains negligible.

Notice the load recipe workup, at 68gr i was about to fall into a node spot and wasn't even looking for one in a 250 yard hunting rifle, 65, if i would have loaded 66, 67 and 68 grains gave a rise of only 20 fps per grain of powder, i knew when i picked CFE-223 i'd most likely have a winner with the 400 Whelen, the powder is very compact and dense, packs really well in the case, and to my mind any powder with a burn rate slower than Varget in what is a near straight wall hull will indeed behave like a very slow burning powder in an overbore cartridge.

Thanks for the tip on trim length, i'll go back and trim all fired cases to 2..480 inch and call it good for i bet several more firings, the cases shouldn't grow much at all with that abrupt shoulder, speaking of shoulder, i'll take .459" all day long as i only size .411" length of the neck on fired brass.

That rifle is a little 9.5 lb all up with 6 rounds on board, accurate, great functioning machine, my old 'Smith did a fine job as usual.

Thanks again Sir,

Gunner


Sounds like CFE works excellent Gunner. I kinda wonder if Leverevolution isn’t the same or nearly the same powder. Every time I run across data for about any cartridge they’re both used in it’s damned near a spitting image. Might be another option too. Having options these days doesn’t stink.

That’s a slick rig buddy.
Originally Posted by beretzs
And man, Gunner that is a sweetheart. What a great set up.


Thanks Big Buddy B, i call it the "Weak Sister" to guys i've hunted with, then i drag a deer over that's been train wrecked length ways by a 400gr Woodleigh. LOL
That Lever may be a star too, that load you gave me for my 35 Remington really sings, and you're exactly right, doesn't hurt to have several choices these days trying to build hunting/defense loads.
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by beretzs
And man, Gunner that is a sweetheart. What a great set up.


Thanks Big Buddy B, i call it the "Weak Sister" to guys i've hunted with, then i drag a deer over that's been train wrecked length ways by a 400gr Woodleigh. LOL


Only you would name it the weak sister. Geeeeze….
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Just a reminder of the many possibles for .400 Whelen bullets: Any .416-caliber bullet, and there are many.
If Sir Jerry has a hankering for some .411" Nosler partitions made from the 400-grainer .416s, no problemo.

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You’re an expensive friend to hang around RC. whistle


LOL, if he charged me to draw down that pile of 400gr partitions he dang sure would be! cool
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by beretzs
And man, Gunner that is a sweetheart. What a great set up.


Thanks Big Buddy B, i call it the "Weak Sister" to guys i've hunted with, then i drag a deer over that's been train wrecked length ways by a 400gr Woodleigh. LOL


Only you would name it the weak sister. Geeeeze….


Weak sis my ass one of those guys said LOL
Thanks for the pics and for all the information. Really great stuff!

Glad to see the .416 Barnes size down ok. Certainly opens some options. Was just looking at some .416 Hammers and could be some good choices there. I think I am going to be glad I bought bullet resizing dies.

Anybody done any terminal tests with the 400 grain Hornady RN?

I have actually seen them pretty regular on GB. Not cheap but at least available.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Thanks for the pics and for all the information. Really great stuff!

Glad to see the .416 Barnes size down ok. Certainly opens some options. Was just looking at some .416 Hammers and could be some good choices there. I think I am going to be glad I bought bullet resizing dies.

Anybody done any terminal tests with the 400 grain Hornady RN?

I have actually seen them pretty regular on GB. Not cheap but at least available.


That 416 400 Hammer drawn down might be a little demon.

https://hammerbullets.com/product/416-cal-400g-shock-hammer/

I gotta learn that operation. Never done it.

Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Just a reminder of the many possibles for .400 Whelen bullets: Any .416-caliber bullet, and there are many.
If Sir Jerry has a hankering for some .411" Nosler partitions made from the 400-grainer .416s, no problemo.

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You’re an expensive friend to hang around RC. whistle


LOL, if he charged me to draw down that pile of 400gr partitions he dang sure would be! cool


Uh, you ain’t cheap to be friends with either. I really need to turn my internet off sometimes when you all start spouting about all this cool stuff.
Brand new custom bespoke '74 Shiloh Sharps 50 2-1/2"...................................my pleasure Friend LOL!
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Thanks for the pics and for all the information. Really great stuff!

Glad to see the .416 Barnes size down ok. Certainly opens some options. Was just looking at some .416 Hammers and could be some good choices there. I think I am going to be glad I bought bullet resizing dies.

Anybody done any terminal tests with the 400 grain Hornady RN?

I have actually seen them pretty regular on GB. Not cheap but at least available.


That 416 400 Hammer drawn down might be a little demon.

https://hammerbullets.com/product/416-cal-400g-shock-hammer/

I gotta learn that operation. Never done it.

Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Just a reminder of the many possibles for .400 Whelen bullets: Any .416-caliber bullet, and there are many.
If Sir Jerry has a hankering for some .411" Nosler partitions made from the 400-grainer .416s, no problemo.

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You’re an expensive friend to hang around RC. whistle


LOL, if he charged me to draw down that pile of 400gr partitions he dang sure would be! cool


Uh, you ain’t cheap to be friends with either. I really need to turn my internet off sometimes when you all start spouting about all this cool stuff.


I can see drawing down Partitions but I'm not sure about a solid copper bullet
Originally Posted by jwp475
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Thanks for the pics and for all the information. Really great stuff!

Glad to see the .416 Barnes size down ok. Certainly opens some options. Was just looking at some .416 Hammers and could be some good choices there. I think I am going to be glad I bought bullet resizing dies.

Anybody done any terminal tests with the 400 grain Hornady RN?

I have actually seen them pretty regular on GB. Not cheap but at least available.


That 416 400 Hammer drawn down might be a little demon.

https://hammerbullets.com/product/416-cal-400g-shock-hammer/

I gotta learn that operation. Never done it.

Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Just a reminder of the many possibles for .400 Whelen bullets: Any .416-caliber bullet, and there are many.
If Sir Jerry has a hankering for some .411" Nosler partitions made from the 400-grainer .416s, no problemo.

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You’re an expensive friend to hang around RC. whistle


LOL, if he charged me to draw down that pile of 400gr partitions he dang sure would be! cool


Uh, you ain’t cheap to be friends with either. I really need to turn my internet off sometimes when you all start spouting about all this cool stuff.


I can see drawing down Partitions but I'm not sure about a solid copper bullet




Looks like RC got it to work.
Originally Posted by gunner500
Brand new custom bespoke '74 Shiloh Sharps 50 2-1/2"...................................my pleasure Friend LOL!



You got me but good.
Originally Posted by jwp475

I can see drawing down Partitions but I'm not sure about a solid copper bullet


It’ll be interesting to see what he can do with them.
Some .400 Whelen Secretary Ammoguide business first:

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whelenhunter has been busy since last I looked at the loads list.

Sir Jerry,

Check your load "view" here and tell me if I need to change anything:

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The 400-gr Woodleigh RNSN is a mildly compressed load in unfired new brass, and just about exactly 100% LR/net fill with fire-formed brass.
I might ought to edit out the "C" next to the 68.0-gr powder charge if the velocity of 2255 fps was done with once-fired brass.
I might ought to leave it in and say the load is a fire-forming load, mildly compressed and probably over 50,000 psi,
since it gives such a pretty shoulder. LOL.
Originally Posted by beretzs

You’re an expensive friend to hang around RC. whistle


Sir Scotty my friend,
Thanks for ordering some 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammers,
the one-planet-one-bullet bullet.
You will not be sorry.
Originally Posted by beretzs

That 416 400 Hammer drawn down might be a little demon.

https://hammerbullets.com/product/416-cal-400g-shock-hammer/

I gotta learn that operation. Never done it.


Those shallow, sinusoidal "PDR" drive bands on the Hammer bullets
would get their rounded peaks flattened, might spoil the magic.
Probably would be an easy squeeze, but better to wait for a Hammer .411 factory bullet.
Remember you can replicate .400 Whelen ballistics with the .458 WinMag and those 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammers,
and G1 BC might be 0.419 or thereabouts. LOL
Yes, a 1-ton arbor press will size 400-gr/.416-cal TSX to .411" diameter.
Use .412", .410", .409" dies and springs back to .411" to stay.
Not saying a 2-ton arbor press would not make it any easier.
Might get one of those one of these days.



So you loose 2 1/2 thousands in the dept of the grooves drawing down a .416 TSX to
411.

Will that be enough depth for the rifling to not be engraving the body of the bullet?
Sir John,

The diameter in the grooves of one of those Barnes TSX 400-gr/.416-cal bullets
that I sized down to .411":

0.395" +/- 0.001" after the sizing down, about same before sizing down, just now confirmed.
Gerard Shultz used to laugh about how much under bore diameter the TSX grooves were.
He said those grooves were cut with a bank of Dremel Tool cutting wheels
after the bullets were hammered out of a piece of copper wire.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir John,

The diameter in the grooves of one of those Barnes TSX 400-gr/.416-cal bullets
that I sized down to .411":

0.395" +/- 0.001" after the sizing down, about same before sizing down, just now confirmed.
Gerard Shultz used to laugh about how much under bore diameter the TSX grooves were.
He said those grooves were cut with a bank of Dremel Tool cutting wheels
after the bullets were hammered out of a piece of copper wire.


Then the depth is enough to accommodate the squeeze.

Thanks.

I've seen how Barnes makes their TSXs they go through 6 form dies with punches. WWll bullet making machines. Then they are automatically go onto a spinning machine and metal cutting wheels one in and cut the grooves.





Originally Posted by gunner500
... if 2267 fps at 18 yards away, i was wondering what the true velocity/energy numbers would be, that fired hull on the chrono is a thing of beauty, the primer is perfect, no bolt raceway smear, no firing pin protrusion, the case fell from the chamber like they always have, and pockets remain tight, case head measurement before and after firing remains negligible ...
... i'll go back and trim all fired cases to 2.480 inch and call it good for i bet several more firings, the cases shouldn't grow much at all with that abrupt shoulder, speaking of shoulder, i'll take .459" all day long as i only size .411" length of the neck on fired brass ...
That rifle is a little 9.5 lb all up with 6 rounds on board, accurate, great functioning machine, my old 'Smith did a fine job as usual.

Sir Jerry,
Using BC for the Woodleigh 400-gr RNSN as 0.307 G1,
plug and chug in RCBS external ballistics calculator:

MV = 2315 fps and KE = 4760 ft-lbs if 18 YARD velocity was 2267 fps. HOLY COW.
Did you mean 18 feet or 6 yards ? Truly at 18 yards ?

You might have gotten one of those long-brass-pinches with brass stretch on firing (springs back if no bad-kaboom happens),
and got your pressure/velocity up even if not severe enough to cause problems.
I am especially strict on brass length since a teachable moment happened to me. I am self-taught on this one.

I once was tooling around on purpose with a cartridge very much like the .400 Whelen-Petrov
except that it had a chamber minimum length of 2.509" instead of 2.501",
and it had same neck-2 diameter (case mouth) but a neck-1 of 0.003" tighter at shoulder junction,
and it had 0.112" longer parallel-sided free-bore than the .400 Whelen-Petrov's 0.188" length.

On purpose, like a dumb adze, I was tooling around with firing brass cases that were all trimmed to 2.504" to 2.505"
A dumb adze is not the sharpest tool in the toolbox.
Let us say I successfully fired 3 loads of 400-gr .411 Woodleigh RNSN at a 100 yard target, with so-so accuracy,
then on the 4th shot velocity spiked a bit and the primer fell out of the case when the bolt was opened with no difficulty.
MV of that 4th shot was a bit over 2400 fps.

The average of all 4 shots was only 2398 fps MV, helped a lot by that 4th shot.
That 4th shot might have been a little longer in the brass than the others, like 2.505" instead of 2.504".
But maybe they were all stretch-pinching at the case mouths on firing.

Trimming all .400 Whelen-Petrov brass to 2.480" and letting it grow to no more than 2.490" is written in stone for me now.
From Elmer's GUN NOTES Vol. 1:

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From the internet:

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Man, that 400 of Elmers is a helluva nice one. Holy smokes.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
whelenhunter has been busy since last I looked at the loads list.

Sir Jerry,

Check your load "view" here and tell me if I need to change anything:

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The 400-gr Woodleigh RNSN is a mildly compressed load in unfired new brass, and just about exactly 100% LR/net fill with fire-formed brass.
I might ought to edit out the "C" next to the 68.0-gr powder charge if the velocity of 2255 fps was done with once-fired brass.
I might ought to leave it in and say the load is a fire-forming load, mildly compressed and probably over 50,000 psi,
since it gives such a pretty shoulder. LOL.


That looks good Sir Ron, wish they had a starting load column, the 400gr Woodleigh solid gives a bit more compression because of length, the action is a modern built Dumoulin-Herstal 98 Mauser, they were 300 bucks at Sarco, makes a great action to build on, i'm looking forward to seeing your M-77 Ruger rigged out and slinging lead! ; ]
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by gunner500
... if 2267 fps at 18 yards away, i was wondering what the true velocity/energy numbers would be, that fired hull on the chrono is a thing of beauty, the primer is perfect, no bolt raceway smear, no firing pin protrusion, the case fell from the chamber like they always have, and pockets remain tight, case head measurement before and after firing remains negligible ...
... i'll go back and trim all fired cases to 2.480 inch and call it good for i bet several more firings, the cases shouldn't grow much at all with that abrupt shoulder, speaking of shoulder, i'll take .459" all day long as i only size .411" length of the neck on fired brass ...
That rifle is a little 9.5 lb all up with 6 rounds on board, accurate, great functioning machine, my old 'Smith did a fine job as usual.

Sir Jerry,
Using BC for the Woodleigh 400-gr RNSN as 0.307 G1,
plug and chug in RCBS external ballistics calculator:

MV = 2315 fps and KE = 4760 ft-lbs if 18 YARD velocity was 2267 fps. HOLY COW.
Did you mean 18 feet or 6 yards ? Truly at 18 yards ?

You might have gotten one of those long-brass-pinches with brass stretch on firing (springs back if no bad-kaboom happens),
and got your pressure/velocity up even if not severe enough to cause problems.
I am especially strict on brass length since a teachable moment happened to me. I am self-taught on this one.

I once was tooling around on purpose with a cartridge very much like the .400 Whelen-Petrov
except that it had a chamber minimum length of 2.509" instead of 2.501",
and it had same neck-2 diameter (case mouth) but a neck-1 of 0.003" tighter at shoulder junction,
and it had 0.112" longer parallel-sided free-bore than the .400 Whelen-Petrov's 0.188" length.

On purpose, like a dumb adze, I was tooling around with firing brass cases that were all trimmed to 2.504" to 2.505"
A dumb adze is not the sharpest tool in the toolbox.
Let us say I successfully fired 3 loads of 400-gr .411 Woodleigh RNSN at a 100 yard target, with so-so accuracy,
then on the 4th shot velocity spiked a bit and the primer fell out of the case when the bolt was opened with no difficulty.
MV of that 4th shot was a bit over 2400 fps.

The average of all 4 shots was only 2398 fps MV, helped a lot by that 4th shot.
That 4th shot might have been a little longer in the brass than the others, like 2.505" instead of 2.504".
But maybe they were all stretch-pinching at the case mouths on firing.

Trimming all .400 Whelen-Petrov brass to 2.480" and letting it grow to no more than 2.490" is written in stone for me now.



I am braindead Sir, 18 feet, six long steps away from the chrono to sit and fire on the back porch load shop slab.

I trim new brass to 2.500", neck down enough to have a good crush on bolt closing fit, re-check and trim back to 2.500" after neck down, load and fire, most cases are at 2.490" after fire form, i thought that was GTG, but will trim another 0.010 off cases for safety and uniformity, all loaded cases after fire form load and unload like greased glass, can still barely feel that 0.459 shoulder at closing, PERFECT, i dont touch it when re-sizing only 0.411/0.412 of the neck length for plenty of tension to hold without crimp.

I've never felt any bind/pinch sort of deal, we can see from the load recipe workup i was only getting an increase of 20 fps per grain of powder with those 2.500" cases when i stopped at 2255 fps, that told me all was smooth sailing.
Sir Jerry,
OK, I am going to edit and add your 60, 63, 65, 67 charges to the 68.0-gr charge as max load.
Separate line for each powder charge is how they do it at ammoguide.com.
They are all going to be commented on as fire-forming loads with only the 68.0 grain charge shown as compressed.
After fire-forming, the loads will differ little in velocity or pressure and no question of utter reliability on headspacing.
I will note your comments on neck sizing to maintain full shoulder diameter.
And I will put a corrected to MV note in the comments but show the chrono velocity at 6 yards in the load table entry.

BTW, to correct a 6-yard velocity of 2267 to MV with a BC of 0.307 G1, add 16 fps >>> 2283 fps, 4629 ft-lbs KE.

Whelenhunter's load with the 400-gr Swift A-Frame in a different rifle, though also using CFE-223 is a different kettle of fish.
I did not know the bullet existed, wonder if it might be a re-sized .416", will have to look at his comments on the load.
My "Swift Reloading Manual Number Two" shows a 350-gr/0.410" A-Frame used in .405 WCF loads.
That would be a good bullet in the .400 Whelen.
Minus .001" is fine for jacketed bullets, might reduce pressure and velocity.
Matching bullet diameter to groove diameter is better: .411" in .400 Whelen-Petrov.
Shooting +.001" or .412" in a .411" groove with jacketed bullets gets pressures up.
Captain obvious told me so.
Sir Ron,

Perfect, sounds great, an hour ago i went and grabbed a fire-formed and reloaded round with 400gr Woodleigh soft with 68gr CFE-223 and gave it a shake next to my ear, what do you know, i heard the powder, it's not even compressed after fire-form, Great!
Then forget the fire-forming mumbo-jumbo. 5 loads from 60.0 to 68.0 grains with 68.0 grains being a full case, non-compressed load, noted as maximum.
The velocities are ballpark anyway for anyone with a different rifle, and are not much different from fire-forming to formed-case firing,
in the .400 Whelen-Petrov case, another weak pun intended.

If anything, that would be a safety margin with the use of fire-formed brass for assembling the real-deal, hunting ammo.
I SWAG your 68-grain load is less than 60,000 psi.

Looks like the slower burning, heavier-charged, more compact CFE-223 ball powder
gives the faster burning, lighter-charged, bulkier H4895 a run for the money.

Which of the two powders is more temperature independent is a possible bonus for H4895.

BTW my "proof-of-goof" load was with compressed H4895, 67.0 grains,
only about 107% LR/net fill compressed without drop tube use,
in that cartridge so similar to the .400 Whelen-Petrov.
DON"T TRY THAT AT HOME WITHOUT ADULT SUPERVISION.

Will report back here when I get the CFE-223 loads posted at ammoguide.com.
I don't think the Hammer 400gr would work in the 400W. Monometal bullets are LONG. RC's 400 B would likely work, but in a standard Whelen its just likely too long. Heh even 400 gr North Forks that are partially lead, are extremely long for that case.

I did contact Hawk, and they'd be happy to try the 350 and/or 400 RN with .50 or .65 jackets to make a tough- game worthy bullet. A spitzer they said is difficult, and while not impossible (i mean they make a SP in 416...) they'd likely pass on the project.

Ideally, if what's currently cataloged, the NF 360 would be the best all around 400W bullet. 360 puts it right at .3 SD, you only need to go up to about 2250 and maybe a bit more to hit that mythical 4000 ft-lbs, and it would have slightly better "long" range performance compared to those R2D2 looking 400gr round noses. But they're back ordered, and EXPENSIVE
I have a fair amount of experience with a 416 Taylor on bison. Used the Hornady 400 grain soft nose and Speer 350 soft. They both worked very well. Only remember recovering one Speer. Nicely expanded and five feet of penetration. The Hornady 400s all went out.
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Here is how Sir Jerry's submaximal loads are detailed, all referring to more details in the final, max load:

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Here is Sir Jerry's max load with some extra 'splainin' done:

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In this book Elmer Keith 'splained that he fire-formed his brass by hunting rabbits and paper targets with 300-grainers,
then loaded the tougher 350-grainers hot, for elk and such:

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Another favorite passage from the book.

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And here is that beloved passage from the 1936 THE RIFLEMAN article on the .400 Whelen:

"I like to do all my hunting before I shoot, and the .400 Whelen, an old Sharps Creedmoor .45-120-550,
and two Winchesters in .35 and .405 caliber, are the only rifles I have been able to do this (with) when hunting elk."


Of course Elmer got out a bit more and tried some other rifles after 1936.
Also note that in 1936 Elmer referenced his .400 Whelen rifle by James Howe which he wrote up in an early 1924 article.
But in the 1946 book he recalled he got it in hand in 1925.
The rifle could have been held onto by Howe for a while as a display at his shop,
or Elmer is carefree in dating, +/- one year is OK.
There are a couple of articles on the .400 Brown Whelen from 1991 and 2006 publications.
The author of the latter basically followed what the former author did.
Their load data are the weak sisters to what the .400 Whelen-Petrov does with aplomb.
The whole purpose of the .400 Brown Whelen seems to have been fear caused by
improperly chambered and loaded "supposed .400 Whelen rifles" of the past.
After Michael Petrov the .400 Brown Whelen has become more obscure.
Best thing about those two articles is how well they illustrate the "reversed XTP" fiire-forming method,
which is how I do it.
Why heck, I might have learned how to do it from them.

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If one were fearful of the .400 Whelen headspacing, one could make the reamer shoulder diameter 0.461" minimum instead of 0.458".
One could also get rid of the neck taper in the .400 Whelen-Petrov chamber,
make a zero-taper neck with same Neck-1 and Neck-2 diameter minimums in the chamber..
I have a feeling that is what the .400 Brown Whelen did, but I have never seen a reamer drawing for it.
The .400 Whelen-Petrov is little different, but it is less prone to failure in combat feed mode,
in untidy environments and impolite situations.
Also have killed a pile of bison with 1895 in 405WCF. The Hornady 300 grain flat nose is pretty soggy so went to the RCBS 350 grain gas check sized to .413. That worked real well on elk, deer and black bear. Cast from tire weights, water dropped and aged. Never recovered one of those either in an animal.
Mr. Keith certainly loved his 400 Whelen as did his father.
Great articles RC. I especially like the Keith write up.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by Mike78
What the heck is with all the sir, saint and lady stuff?


What jwp475 aka Sir John said.
Knights of the Square Table are champions of the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Saint is for those Knights gone on to the happy Hunting Ground.
Lady is just for good manners, not all is tongue in cheek.

BTW, Sir John,
Not saying smokeless won't work with paper patched bullets.
It is just a different kettle of fish regarding bullet diameters and whether the bullets are
heavy-for-caliber and soft versus light-for-caliber and hard,
and other variations to boot,
including jacketed versus cast lead, and BP versus smokeless.

I do have an article by Ross Seyfried filed away, pertinent to paper patch and smokeless loads:
"Paper Patched Bullets" HANDLOADER 220 Dec-Jan 2003, pp. 58-65.

"Modern rifles are often quite happy to use patched bullets.
Once again, where it might be difficult to get reasonable accuracy
from a .30-06 with bare lead bullets and velocity over 2000 fps,
it can be very easy to approach the magical inch groups with paper patches.
Further, while I have not pushed the system as far,
others have achieved reasonable accuracy out of 'magnums' with velocity over 3,000 fps.
I had a stock Ruger No. 1 .458 Winchester Magnum that was absolutely in love with patched bullets.
Inch groups were the norm at 2,100 to 2,200 fps, even with pure lead bullets.

"One more bizarre use of paper patches, in conjunction with 'modern rifles'
is making undersize jacketed bullets fit the rifle.
I have successfully fitted .458-inch bullets to .470 Nitro rifles ..."



Thanks, fantasy roll play for old guys.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Then forget the fire-forming mumbo-jumbo. 5 loads from 60.0 to 68.0 grains with 68.0 grains being a full case, non-compressed load, noted as maximum.
The velocities are ballpark anyway for anyone with a different rifle, and are not much different from fire-forming to formed-case firing,
in the .400 Whelen-Petrov case, another weak pun intended.

If anything, that would be a safety margin with the use of fire-formed brass for assembling the real-deal, hunting ammo.
I SWAG your 68-grain load is less than 60,000 psi.

Looks like the slower burning, heavier-charged, more compact CFE-223 ball powder
gives the faster burning, lighter-charged, bulkier H4895 a run for the money.

Which of the two powders is more temperature independent is a possible bonus for H4895.

BTW my "proof-of-goof" load was with compressed H4895, 67.0 grains,
only about 107% LR/net fill compressed without drop tube use,
in that cartridge so similar to the .400 Whelen-Petrov.
DON"T TRY THAT AT HOME WITHOUT ADULT SUPERVISION.

Will report back here when I get the CFE-223 loads posted at ammoguide.com.


Great, Thank you Sir Ron, BTW, Swift does make a .410" 400gr Aframe, i used that bullet in my 400 H&H at 2400 fps Sept/Oct-2020 in Tanzania to take:

Leopard, 70 yards, out of blind.
Warthog, 169 yards off sticks.
Hartebeest, 221 yards, prone.
Waterbuck, 228 yards off sticks.
Zebra, 277 yards, prone.

These 40's are great rifles too.

Those that worry about long bullets in the 400 Whelen, fear not, the 400gr Woodleigh solid is 1.412 long, my rifle with standard Petrov chamber will take that bullet at a COL of 3.325" long, may even go 3.340", never let it out that much, meaning any spitzer shaped bullet should run fine at max mag box length of 3.340"

Another reason i have no fear using the 416 cal 400gr partitions after Sir Ron draws em down for me, that bullet at 416 dia is 1.485 long, no problem, the .411" 400gr A-Frame is 1.405 inch, the .411" 300gr Barnes TSX is 1.290 inch, let er rip men, you have room to work.
Originally Posted by beretzs
Man, that 400 of Elmers is a helluva nice one. Holy smokes.


Yessir it is Big B, rich history and knowledge can be gleaned in these old documents.
Yeah man. I love reading those old articles.
Gunner the bullets you listed indeed will work fine. I was specifically talking about the mono's or mostly brass bullets being too long. This is the 300 TSX, 400 Woodleigh and 400 North Fork CPS. The NF is noticeably longer, and I think a 400 gr mono spitzer is going to be even longer still

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
gibbet crossword
Give me RL-15 in the big 400 (66.5 in Remington cases with 300 grainers), all else is twaddle.
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter
Gunner the bullets you listed indeed will work fine. I was specifically talking about the mono's or mostly brass bullets being too long. This is the 300 TSX, 400 Woodleigh and 400 North Fork CPS. The NF is noticeably longer, and I think a 400 gr mono spitzer is going to be even longer still

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]
gibbet crossword


Ten four MHS, agreed on the 400gr monos, same/same with .338, 375, .416 and .458, several PH's in Africa have told me the TSX/TTSX 225 in 338, 270 in 375, 350 in 416 and 450 in 458 penetrate straight and plenty deep enough, seems the really long expanding bullets want to swap ends according to them, they may not have enough twist to keep em spun up tight enough for straight line penetration.

After shooting a 400gr Woodleigh solid through a dead cape buff length ways, then slamming him in the shoulder with a 400gr woodleigh soft at 10 yards only to have the bullet cut from the offside hide, i'm more than satisfied, if 300 yard hunting range was a concern, that could easily be met with the available 300gr TSX, 2500 fps would be a great load in the 400 Whelen.

A faster twist will keep the heavy weight monos straight. But I don't see the need since dropped down in weight gives plenty of penetration.
Originally Posted by jwp475

A faster twist will keep the heavy weight monos straight. But I don't see the need since dropped down in weight gives plenty of penetration.



Yep, bet it'd take an aftermarket barrel, don't know if factory twists in the calibers mentioned will buck the load.
G500, agreed. The heavy mono's seem to be made to satisfy the old guards who just CAN'T fathom anything but heavy for caliber bullets, because that's what's worked for over 100 years, and they gloss over the fact that mono's are a different beast. In fact THOR bullets does this, they offer the 300gr bullet because shooters areso dead set on old ideas they refuse to change, even though his 250's perform better all around. The twist rate abd velocity can become a giant issue if hunters flat refuse to accept that modern bullets behave differently and you need to adapt.

Also agreed if you need more than 250 yards regularly, the 300 TSX is a 1 stop shop. I just have a feeling that 360 NF is the goldilocks bullet that can do a buff at 50 yards and an elk at up to 375-400ish (if your gun shoots them *)
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter


... I just have a feeling that 360 NF is the goldilocks bullet that can do a buff at 50 yards and an elk at up to 375-400ish (if your gun shoots them *)


Yep, that 360-gr/.411" North Fork SP would be JUST RIGHT in a .400 Whelen-Petrov.
Third from right below:
[Linked Image]
That 350-gr Hornady SP makes 3"-diameter exit holes in deer ribs at 100 and 150 yards and explodes the hearts along the way,
at a little over 2300 fps MV.
Plumb gentlemanly killer.
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter
G500, agreed. The heavy mono's seem to be made to satisfy the old guards who just CAN'T fathom anything but heavy for caliber bullets, because that's what's worked for over 100 years, and they gloss over the fact that mono's are a different beast. In fact THOR bullets does this, they offer the 300gr bullet because shooters areso dead set on old ideas they refuse to change, even though his 250's perform better all around. The twist rate abd velocity can become a giant issue if hunters flat refuse to accept that modern bullets behave differently and you need to adapt.

Also agreed if you need more than 250 yards regularly, the 300 TSX is a 1 stop shop. I just have a feeling that 360 NF is the goldilocks bullet that can do a buff at 50 yards and an elk at up to 375-400ish (if your gun shoots them *)


With You and Riflecrank on all that, be sweet if Hammer ever puts out a 350 grain .410/.411" slug, drive it hard and fast and see where it lands, also be nice to know what Hammers minimum expansion velocity window is.
might be worth asking them what they'd need for a group test order. I mean we'd probably get 4-5 guys from this thread alone willing to commit. I'm part of a few Facebook groups as well with a handful of 400W shooters I could ask
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter
might be worth asking them what they'd need for a group test order. I mean we'd probably get 4-5 guys from this thread alone willing to commit. I'm part of a few Facebook groups as well with a handful of 400W shooters I could ask


I’m in on that
My cast bullets showed up. Once I got a little lube in the bushing it was no trouble getting them through the .413 NOE bushing with my Rockchucker. The .412 bushing got them to .413. Probably could have went straight to the .412.

Looks like a great bullet that should knock the snot out of some pigs.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Having asked in August 2021 for my dream bullet from Hammer (400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammer) it was realized in January 2022.
I have much work to do with that bullet.
Sumbuddy else's turn to champion a .411-caliber at Hammer Bullets.
My bullet budget is busted for a while.

Until I recover, will work for food.
gunner500 sent me a package of delicious creations from his Wife's kitchen,
arrived Friday along with some bullets he wanted "drawn down" from .416" to .411".
Saturday I listened to the basketball game on the radio while pulling the press handle,
(Kentucky beat 5th-ranked Kansas by 80 to 62 at Kansas, yay)
then I worked on my TV viewing while polishing the sized bullets and packaging them for return to Sir Jerry.
("Life Below Zero" and "The Walking Dead" are my cultural literacy project,
catching up on all those years I missed while working 20-hour days before retiring, thank God.)

[Linked Image]

When finished, there were only 174 bullets, but Sir Jerry admitted he had "coon fingered" one of the bullets
just before mailing them to me and he forgot to put it back in the package.
He has a "before" bullet to compare to 174 "after" bullets:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Reference material:

[Linked Image]

BBMT provided measurements from samples of one bullet each of the two above.

400-gr/.411" ex-Nosler Partition: BOL = 1.485", seat depth with crimp at cannelure =0.725", COL with 2.490" brass = 3.250"

350-gr/.410" Swift A-Frame: BOL = 1.285", seat depth with crimp at cannelure = 0.575", COL with 2.490" brass = 3.200"

[Linked Image]

A 400-gr/.410" Swift A-Frame would be even more sure to obturate to .411" groove, since sectional density drives expansion for any given velocity.
It is much better to shoot a jacketed or monometal bullet that is .001" to .002" smaller than groove diameter
than to shoot one that is 0.001" or more over groove diameter.
The 0.423" North Fork bullets worked well in my 0.425"-grooved McGowen barrels, sub-MOA capable.
A tighter fit might have increased velocity AND pressure with monometal copper/jacketed bullets.
Not like the smokeless loads with lead bullets that are not at their best until 0.002" greater than groove diameter,
for any reasonable rifle bullet diameter, of course, like .400-cal and up.
That is where reasonable starts.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
My cast bullets showed up. Once I got a little lube in the bushing it was no trouble getting them through the .413 NOE bushing with my Rockchucker. The .412 bushing got them to .413. Probably could have went straight to the .412.


Probably so. Lead bullets are easily done in a single stage reloading press.
A draw down of 0.003" is never criticized in bullet sizing lore that I have known.
That is the acceptable limit according to most know-it-alls.
I too have found that the hard alloy lead bullets do spring back to about 0.001" bigger than the sizer.
Soft enough lead alloy sizes true to sizer diameter.

The springback of all the jacketed and monometal copper bullets I have tried is 0.002".
Worked that way again on Sir Jerry's bullets.
I am so grateful for the food he sent I will slip another 26 of the 450-gr/.458-cal TSX into the empty slots in the bullet box.

And furthermore, "The Walking Dead" reminds me of "The Walking Democrat Voters."
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter
might be worth asking them what they'd need for a group test order. I mean we'd probably get 4-5 guys from this thread alone willing to commit. I'm part of a few Facebook groups as well with a handful of 400W shooters I could ask


I’m in on that


^^^^^^^^^^^Yep^^^^^^^^^^^^
GREAT! many Thanks for the tidy and quick work Sir Ron, and the new bullet boxes, beats my zip-loc all to hades, man i appreciate it greatly! also want to Thank You for the extra 450gr TSX's, the 400gr Hammers you've worked so hard for may be well worth the effort, in the meantime, i'm more than sure the 450gr TSX will easily pull any slack and handle any heavy lifting fired from my 458 WM+ at 2450+ fps.

LOL, little Wife says you're most welcome on the grub from her kitchen, she says there's more where that came from ; ]

You may now know when i say it's a daily struggle for me not to weigh 900 LBS i'm not slingin' bovine fertilizer! wink

Thanks again Sir.
Sir Jerry,

I cannot in good faith get you addicted to the 400-gr Hammer Shock by supplying them to you.
I do hope you will use the additional 450-gr TSX "fix" that is on its way to you
to help wean yourself off that bullet after you have killed some game with it.

Then you may consider the 400-gr Hammer Shock for future use in your .458 WM+
at COL up to 3.580" and MV in the 2500 to 2600 fps range, whatever your rifle likes best.
But remember to purchase them responsibly and use them wisely.
One planet, one bullet.
Of course you could say the same thing about the 450-gr/.458-cal TSX.
But I have a vested interest in the 400-gr Shock Hammer's success.
I am sure that you understand.

Now I wonder how CFE-223 will do with the 400-gr/.411-cal eX-Nosler Partition
in the .400 Whelen-Petrov, whenever you can get around to it.
RC,

So are you saying I'd be better off trying the .408 Hammer bullets than the .411 TSX or 300/360 NF's in my .410 bbl? Or is it just more a matter of loading up in smaller powder charge steps and paying very close attention to what my brass and chrono are telling me?
Inquiry sent into Hammer, we'll see where it goes
Originally Posted by MileHighShooter
RC,

So are you saying I'd be better off trying the .408 Hammer bullets than the .411 TSX or 300/360 NF's in my .410 bbl? Or is it just more a matter of loading up in smaller powder charge steps and paying very close attention to what my brass and chrono are telling me?


Yes and yes.
The .400 Brown Whelen boys railed against .412-caliber jacketed bullets in their .411 barrels, noting pressure fears.
but they were not very sophisticated since they were messing with the .400 Brown Whelen anyway.

The SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum has a minimum groove diameter of .458" with .450" bore/land diameter.
But a .459" maximum bullet diameter is allowed for jacketed bullets by SAAMI.
The .458 WinMag does have "free-bore" protection, but you can certainly work up carefully with .411" in your .410" groove.
What usually occurs in reality is that the factory .458 WinMag has a .459" groove diameter (in spec for minimum of .458")
and gets used with .458"-diameter bullets, in spec for maximum bullet diameter allowed of 0.459".

I noticed Hammer has a 296-gr/.408-cal. "Pittman Hammer" (and 2 lighter weights also) meant for use in muzzleloaders.
Maybe that is for sabot in a .45-or .50-cal ?
It has a high BC supposedly, very pointy with 1.5mm HP.
Might work in a .410/400 Whelen with fast powder and high velocity.

But you are blessed in having the 350-gr/.410-cal Swift A-Frame perfect for your rifle.


yea the A-Frame would be great if they were actually in stock anywhere haha.

Hammer emailed back, they don't think the .408 will seal
Well, of course they would say that about their .408 bullets in .410 grooves.
But those PDR bands are pretty slick and minimal drag and less likely to grab in a .410 groove
than would be a grabbier bullet with greater bearing surface and start pressure.

My Douglas .410"-grooved barrel that has a .400" bore/land diameter, 1:14" twist, stainless,
is on a CZ 550 Magnum .410/404 Jeffery wildcat.
I could try those .408" Hammers in that.
Such a tight bore might make it work with loose grooves.

I also have a .408 Chey-Tac sporter on an MRC M1999 action with Dan Lilja fluted 1:13" twist
and a .408/.338 Lapua on a BRNO ZKK-602 with McGowen 1:13" twists.
Both of those are .408"-grooved/.400"-bore/land diameter.
Come to think of it, Chey-Tac used to sell a pointy 300-gr/.408-cal monometal copper solid bullet.
They called it the "Battlefield Dominator" bullet (anti-personnel) and paired it with the 400-grainer for anti-materiel.

The 296-gr/.408-cal/1.5mm-HP Pittman Hammer might be a "Gamefield Dominator" in any of the above rifles.

For peace of mind, push a 300-gr/.411-cal TSX through a .408" sizer and I bet it would spring back to .410" diameter and stay there.
I'll swap you those for any .408-cal bullet leftovers you try and find unsatisfactory.
Bullet for bullet,
or will work for food.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Jerry,

I cannot in good faith get you addicted to the 400-gr Hammer Shock by supplying them to you.
I do hope you will use the additional 450-gr TSX "fix" that is on its way to you
to help wean yourself off that bullet after you have killed some game with it.

Then you may consider the 400-gr Hammer Shock for future use in your .458 WM+
at COL up to 3.580" and MV in the 2500 to 2600 fps range, whatever your rifle likes best.
But remember to purchase them responsibly and use them wisely.
One planet, one bullet.
Of course you could say the same thing about the 450-gr/.458-cal TSX.
But I have a vested interest in the 400-gr Shock Hammer's success.
I am sure that you understand.

Now I wonder how CFE-223 will do with the 400-gr/.411-cal eX-Nosler Partition
in the .400 Whelen-Petrov, whenever you can get around to it.


LOL, no Sir, i'm most happy to watch from the sidelines at what you guys can get done with the 400gr Hammers, that said, and having heard about someone taking them to Africa this fall for buffalo, should something happen to that hunt, i'd be more than happy to buy some and try them on cape buffalo on my hunt, can get it on film too, that is of course with your approval, i already told you i'd use the 450gr TSX's you graciously gave me on buffalo in my 458 WM+ cool.

CFE-223 will be the bomb under those ex-partitions, can easily load and shoot out to 3.340" in that rifle, the pointier nose will give more room than the bulbous nosed Woodleighs, i should check with Qual-Cart and get some new cases just for the 400gr partitions you made me, at roughly 2250 fps they will penetrate for weeks!
RC,

That 410/404 , is that the wildcat dcpd has talked about? using 450/400 dies? I'm also VERY tempted to try that as well. As I understand it he just uses a 450-400 reamer into the .410 bbl. I have a spare M70 375 just sitting around waiting for a new barrel, it was between that and the 400 h&h but dang are those dies pricey

Sir Jerry,
I knew you would understand.
You da man with the plan for the 450-gr TSX.

Originally Posted by MileHighShooter
RC,
That 410/404 , is that the wildcat dcpd has talked about? using 450/400 dies? I'm also VERY tempted to try that as well. As I understand it he just uses a 450-400 reamer into the .410 bbl. I have a spare M70 375 just sitting around waiting for a new barrel, it was between that and the 400 h&h but dang are those dies pricey


Yes, that is the one, ".410/404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express" aka the .410/404 JRNE aka the ".410 Journey."
It was quite the journey.
Use 404 Jeffery Rimless brass from Norma or Hornady and the 450/400 NE 3-Inch handloading dies from Hornady.
Treat it just like the 400 Whelen by fire-forming with backwards handgun bullets.
Shoulder step may be bigger but it is only about 7.5-degree hemi-angle compared to stronger 23-degree angle on the Whelen.
Just back to find a box on the porch, many Thanks Sir Ron, i called old 'Smith that built my rifle back in 2015, he informed me i had a 14 twist Kreiger barrel, ran a twist calc over a Berger bullets, seems the now 1.485 long .410" bullet with what i gave a .425 b.c. fired at 2255 fps from 14 twist barrel at +555' sea level okleehoma is spun up plenty tight with stability number SG 2.83..................that'll keep 'em boring straight for all they're worth!

Many Thanks again Sir, the new bullet boxes look very nice, Oh, BTW, i could learn a thing or 1000 from You on shipping contents/container's! wink
Originally Posted by Riflecrank

Sir Jerry,
I knew you would understand.
You da man with the plan for the 450-gr TSX.

Originally Posted by MileHighShooter
RC,
That 410/404 , is that the wildcat dcpd has talked about? using 450/400 dies? I'm also VERY tempted to try that as well. As I understand it he just uses a 450-400 reamer into the .410 bbl. I have a spare M70 375 just sitting around waiting for a new barrel, it was between that and the 400 h&h but dang are those dies pricey


Yes, that is the one, ".410/404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express" aka the .410/404 JRNE aka the ".410 Journey."
It was quite the journey.
Use 404 Jeffery Rimless brass from Norma or Hornady and the 450/400 NE 3-Inch handloading dies from Hornady.
Treat it just like the 400 Whelen by fire-forming with backwards handgun bullets.
Shoulder step may be bigger but it is only about 7.5-degree hemi-angle compared to stronger 23-degree angle on the Whelen.



My idea with that one was have the barrel stamped 400 Jeffrey Rimless and have RCC brass custom stamp their 404 Jeff as 400 Jeff. easy peasy if you need to travel with the rifle!
Sir Jerry,

Do the bullets measure .411" or .410" by your caliper ?
Might get by with "410/404 RNE" on the barrel if sticking to Norma brass that is head-stamped "404 RNE."
Or maybe "400/404 Jeffery" on the barrel if sticking with Hornady brass with "404 Jeffery" head stamp.
Both are good brass.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Sir Jerry,

Do the bullets measure .411" or .410" by your caliper ?


Good evening Sir Ron, X-partitions mic at .410.5" for me, perfect! iirc those four boxes of 400gr A Frames out on the shelf are .410, they shot perfect in my 400 H&H, these X-partitons will fly well for either rifle, lucky i guess, but both are really accurate rifles.

Thanks again Sir.
Good.
400-gr/.416 Nosler Partitions are easier to push through the dies than 400-gr/.416 TSX bullets.
I was getting about 0.4115" after the .410" die,
and about 0.4105" after the .409" die, though that was just eyeballing between the lines.
So, I bit the bullet and called that last one 0.411" to the nearest thou, not a hard decision.
I had not done any Nosler Partitions before.
Easier to push through the dies, spring back about 0.0015" instead of 0.002" with the TSX.
Good learning experience for me.
Buy a donkey for the educational opportunity, Sir Jerry.
Just got an email notification that midway has 350 grain .416 TSX in stock for those interested in them. I am going to hold off on resizing anything other then cast until I absolutely have to.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Good.
400-gr/.416 Nosler Partitions are easier to push through the dies than 400-gr/.416 TSX bullets.
I was getting about 0.4115" after the .410" die,
and about 0.4105" after the .409" die, though that was just eyeballing between the lines.
So, I bit the bullet and called that last one 0.411" to the nearest thou, not a hard decision.
I had not done any Nosler Partitions before.
Easier to push through the dies, spring back about 0.0015" instead of 0.002" with the TSX.
Good learning experience for me.
Buy a donkey for the educational opportunity, Sir Jerry.


Good to know Sir Ron, i spose were one in a bind they could draw down the .416 cal 350gr TSX to .410/.411 for shooting in the 400 Whelen or 400 H&H if no suitable Hammer bullets are made, you're most welcome Sir, and many buy a donkeys to you too LOL.
[Linked Image from up.picr.de]
These are the light .411s, made from shortened Barnes .411 TSX bullets.
I have 270,240 and 210 grainers, they all shoot well out of my .405B [belted]
I like choices!

Is there a current list of Dies and reamers that go together?
BS2 very cool! I was thinking of trying to cut down the North Fork solids so they'd actually fit, but I don't have a good saw to accurately cut them down.
Originally Posted by BS2
[Linked Image from up.picr.de]
These are the light .411s, made from shortened Barnes .411 TSX bullets.
I have 270,240 and 210 grainers, they all shoot well out of my .405B [belted]
I like choices!

Is there a current list of Dies and reamers that go together?


Nice work BS2.
We at Bubba Bullet Metamorphosis Technologies, Ltd. (very limited) applaud your work.
I like the BBMT 480-gr eX-TSX made by grinding the nose tip off of a Barnes 500-gr/.458-cal TSX.
There is now little call for the BBMT 400-gr eX-TSX may by chopping off the base of same 500-grainer,
what with the 400-gr/.458-cal Hammer Shock being available now.

The .400 Whelen-Petrov reamer is available from JGS, PT&G, and Manson Precision.
Both RCBS and CH4D make excellent dies to match the proper reamer.
"The .400 Whelen-Petrov reamer is available from JGS, PT&G, and Manson Precision.
Both RCBS and CH4D make excellent dies to match the proper reamer."

Added to my 400 Whelen File!

Thanks for the Kind Words!
The reamer is also available here…

https://4drentals.com/product/400-whelen-petrov/

I used 4D for my .30 Gibbs and they were excellent to work with.
You might be interested in an article that John Krinfield wrote regarding the 400 Brown Whelen.
BTW: when I had a 35 Brown Whelen I compared the fired cases to 280AI cases - as far as I could see or measure the cases were close to identical except for the neck diameter.
Originally Posted by Bugger
You might be interested in an article that John Krinfield wrote regarding the 400 Brown Whelen.
BTW: when I had a 35 Brown Whelen I compared the fired cases to 280AI cases - as far as I could see or measure the cases were close to identical except for the neck diameter.


Definitely interested. Any links to the article?
It’s in a book that I have titled something like “Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges”, most of the articles in this book are from “Handloader” or “Rifle” it seems to me. I’m laid up right now (just had back surgery and didn’t take my med’s this morning so as to get a rifle to USPS.) - I’ll get more info to you later.
I did a search on the internet, the following is an answer to a question regarding the 400 Brown Whelen on another forum “Graybeard Outdoors.”

I sort of expected that this article would have come originally from another source.


“Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges"by Wolf Publishing has an article on the .400 Brown Whelen it. In this case the author (John Kronfeld) did not find any problem with headspace in an older Ruger M77 (not a controlled feed version) and seems to have concluded that (my words not his) in a properly chambered and loaded .400 Brown Whelen headspaceing is not a problem. YMMV.

Results 300g Barnes Spitzers at 2370fps and 400 Barnes RN at 2200fps (best loads. 22" barrel.

Not a bad little gun. Good cruncher and a M98 / M77 / M70 M700 etc that is chambered for the 30-06 can be converted. With the added advantage of having one or two more rounds in the chamber then a standard belted mag.

Example my .35 Brown Whelen drives a 250 Sierra at 2600fps from a 20.5" and holds one up the spout and at least 5 in the mag. Not many .338 Win/Whby mags will do that.
--
Grendel
I’ve been trying to limit the number of different calibers/bores and have not yet come to the conclusion that I might “need” a 40 caliber. My 375 Whelen AI uses the same diameter bullets as my 375 Winchester and my 375 H&H AI. Besides I have 375 molds and jacketed choices of bullets are plentiful. ([bleep] Hornady bean counters for discontinuing the 220 grain flat nose!)
Otherwise, building a 400 Brown Whelen sounds like a hoot. Even with cast bullets it should be deadly for anything on this hemisphere.
Originally Posted by Bugger
It’s in a book that I have titled something like “Big Bore Rifles and Cartridges”, most of the articles in this book are from “Handloader” or “Rifle” it seems to me. I’m laid up right now (just had back surgery and didn’t take my med’s this morning so as to get a rifle to USPS.) - I’ll get more info to you later.


Hope you heal up ok!
Originally Posted by MedRiver


Hope you heal up ok!


Thanks
Like most rifle projects this .400 Whelen is evolving somewhat.

My original intent was to take the .358 Whelen barrel off this Montana Rifle Company action, use the barrel for a .358 Norma build and simply rebarrel the MRC action to .400 Whelen and put it back into the HS synthetic stock.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The .358 Norma was going to go in a Garret Accur-LT stock (very lightweight...kinda like a McMillan Edge). As that project has progressed I have liked the idea of a heavier stock on the Norma for balance and recoil reduction. I was a little nervous about the lightweight stock holding up to a big boomer also.

I called my gunsmith today and we are going to use the HS stock above for my Norma (Model 70 Classic Stainless action) and it will be one of two dedicated "Alaska" rifles...with the other being a lightweight .35 Whelen.

I am still going to use the MRC action with a #4 stainless Pac-Nor for the .400 Whelen but the goal now is to pick up a nice Winchester post-64 Super Grade stock and get the metal cerakoted in something that will look close to blued. I see this rifle being used more in Texas for pigs then Alaska and a nice walnut stock for a classic cartridge seems like a good fit. I can always toss it in a synthetic down the road if I decide to use it for a foul weather rig.

If anyone has a well figured model 70 stock laying around gathering dust I am officially "in the market" smile
Well, looks like my barrel will be here tomorrow so I have some decisions to make. Since my last post on this thread I acquired a .270 JC Higgins 51 (FN Mauser) in really nice shape. The stock has a little character and there is some minor bluing loss but overall a nice solid classic rifle.

In addition to the FN and MRC action (which is already sans barrel)...I have a Model 70 Classic Featherweight .30-06 that I recently discovered has a cracked stock (split along the grain between the front of mag box and the forward action screw). That would also make a possible donor.

MRC

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Pros- Nice trigger, ready to thread barrel on
Cons- Model 70 stocks need some minor inletting


FN

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Pros- Classic, nice condition, could simply use the existing stock
Cons- Needs new trigger or trigger work, possible safety conversion, less stock options (McMillan only makes flat tops if I go that route)


Winchester Classic

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Pros- Nice modern action with CRF, trigger is nicely adjusted, existing stock could be used with some repair work although the forend is a little narrow.
Cons- Hate to chop up a 5 Digit Classic Featherweight with a nice barrel


Thoughts?
I’m curious, “Are you going with iron sights or scope?”
If scope which one?
I have Lyman aperture sight and a post front on my 375 Whelen AI. But I’ve wondered if I should have mounted a scope….
My intention is a lower power optic. I put a 2-7x33 Wide Duplex Leupold on my .358 Norma. I really like that setup and I may actually run that optic on this Whelen. I also have a 2.5-8x36 VXIII that is on the short list. If I could find the right deal, something along the lines of 1.5-5x20 Leupold wouldn't suck.
To me the Mausers are getting less attractive as donors. Now that McMillian is basically out of the game (flattops only, as you said), the stock options are limited and more expensive, at least until Bansner gets their molds up and running. The bottom metal options are limited (and heavy). It's $300-ish (with shipping/installation) to get a safety that works like a model 70 safety. The only easily available aftermarket triggers are timneys etc, meaning no more M-70 open trigger (if you care about that).

...At least this is where I've landed in the past few months. I would vote Winchester.
Thanks for the input. The Timney doesn’t bother me near as much as the safety on the FN. I am sure the stock safety is functional but would take some getting used to.

The Winchester really has the most “plug and play” options.
My 375 Whelen AI was not expensive. I bought a desirable between the wars receiver from a friend who to me is a Mauser guru. Bought a barrel from Shaw, threaded for the Mauser. I rented a reamer chambered it myself and then I inlet and shaped the stock. I had a steel Lyman aperture sight and I bought a post front sight from Brownells. I paid a friend/gunsmith $40 to mount the sights. I altered the action so that it would feed the fire formed and the pre-fire forming ammo. There was no need to alter the safety as I won’t be mounting a scope. This rifle was a little work but it means a lot more to me than a re-barreled factory rifle.

If I were going to use a factory action it would be a push feed so that it would be easier to get the ammo to feed correctly (if needed). The actions I’d consider and in this order would be a Remington 700, a push feed 70, a tanger Ruger.

But mainly with factory rifles I just remove and replace the barrel, sometimes the trigger and sometimes the stock. It’s more of an assembled or put together rifle than a build. I am lousy at checkering. So the stocks I inlet/shape are w/o checkering. I mainly shape a stock so as to fit me, otherwise I have gotten used to most factory stocks so they work for me. The only factory stock that does not work for me is the Ruger 77 - the comb is too low for a scope for me.
Big fan here of the 1.5 x 5 x20 on big guns. Have them on my Whitworth 375 and my CZ 550 9.3 x 62. You want to talk about easy to use....mb
Just got an email that Reloading International got in some North Fork Bullets. I went with some 360gr Semi-Spitzers....now excuse me while I go refinance my house. Ouch.


Also, my Pac-nor tube arrived. I am very happy with the way it turned out. The contour is nice and trim...even looks like it will fit nicely in my Garrett Accur-LT fiberglass stock if I decide to go the model 70 or MRC route. With a .411 hole it really lightens up the barrel smile I may wish I had a little more meat when I actually touch it off but for now I am happy.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

That stock painted brown with a red pad and the metal cerakoted matte black with a matte leupold 1.5-5x20 would look sharp methinks.
I think it looks wicked.

Saw that same email, was wondering if you grabbed some.
Yes, good stuff MR, congrats! CFE-223 will get those 360gr NF drill bits cooking for ya!
Originally Posted by gunner500
Yes, good stuff MR, congrats! CFE-223 will get those 360gr NF drill bits cooking for ya!


Not sure which is harder to find…jacketed .411” bullets of CFE 223….Let’s Go Brandon!!!
LOL, WORD! the life and times of a slow joe bidet usurping residential nwo installment! that said, old powder bud scored me two cases of h-1000 and h-4831sc, just yesterday i delivered 600 rounds of 223 i loaded for a guy who's passed away dad was a gunsmith and quite the shooter/reloader, i used his brass, primers, bullets and powder, for my labor, he gave me a giant bag of lyman treated walnut hull media, two 5lb jugs of rl-22 powder, three boxes of 375 cal 300gr partitions, 1000 wlr primers, as well as the remaining 1400 winchester small rifle primers from the two 1000 count boxes he originally brought over for me to load his ammo, that's some pretty good pay for a couple half days of labor. cool
Score!
Dropped the parts off with my gunsmith today at church. Went with the MRC 1999 action for a number of reasons after giving it some thought.

1) This action is a little heavy. A little heft when flinging 360-400 grain bullets seems appropriate
2) Excellent trigger
3) I had used the HS stock that was inlet for this action on my recent Norma (model 70) project. Going to a model 70 from a 1999 leaves some gaps in the inletting around the bottom metal and near the bolt release. I am going to use it on this action so the inletting should be perfect once the glass bedding is milled out. When done I will have a quality all-weather stock with a little heft and a full length bedding block that can take some abuse.
4) I am from Montana...seems kind of fitting.

No idea how long the machine work will take. He does quality work so I don't bug him...he just tells me when he is done. After the barrel is installed and cut (thinking somewhere around 20-22") I will send it to get cerakoted.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by gunner500
Yes, good stuff MR, congrats! CFE-223 will get those 360gr NF drill bits cooking for ya!

Not sure which is harder to find…jacketed .411” bullets of CFE 223….Let’s Go Brandon!!!

Scored an 8 pounder of CFE223 today from Midsouth. Sounds like it is moving forward at the gunsmith also. I believe he has the reamer in his hands now.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Good stuff MR, you're on the way to some big fun, cant wait for you to see/hear how hard that 400 hits game ; ]
First major (kinda) setback of the project...

I ordered a SS barrel from Pac-Nor. It was invoiced as such and even stamped on the breach as such. It is all fitted to my action and the stock has been glass bedded to the barreled action. Since the MRC action is coated I asked my smith to test and see if it is stainless or CM. If it was stainless I would just bead blast the whole works...if the action is CM I would get the barreled action cerakoted to match. He ran the test with some cold blue gel on the receiver and it is CM...he put a little on the barrel and it turned out to be CM too!

I called pac-nor and they have been very responsive about making it right. They are willing to take the rifle back and do the rebarrel in-house so I am not out the work twice. No issues with them whatsoever but now I have a rifle that is 95% complete and being a .400 I am a little cautious on who actually puts it together since there isn't much margin for error on the headspace. Basically, I would be paying for work from a smith that I trust but having someone I don't know complete it.

A good portion of this rifles intended purpose revolves around Alaska and wet miserable conditions...thus the desire for stainless. I know CM rifles don't disintegrate at the first hint of moisture....heck, I think Mart hunted his "in the white" a bit if I am not mistaken???....but I have to decide whether I can live with the CM barrel or if it will bug me that my custom isn't exactly what I spec'd.

I did visit with a buddy that had a wildcat put together by Pac-nor and he has had no complaints with the work they did. His .17 Practical rifle shoots amazingly well.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
A good portion of this rifles intended purpose revolves around Alaska and wet miserable conditions...thus the desire for stainless.

I'll never own another blued hunting rifle for coastal AK use.

.400 Whelen is pretty cool stuff. You definitely want to pick Mart's brain on this chambering.
I did indeed hunt mine in the white. But it was good weather and only turned out to be a one day hunt. Before the next season I had it rust blued.

I have since hunted it in all kinds of bad weather. Inland and coastal. I’ve never had a spot if rust on it. I keep it cleaned and protected. I wipe it down liberally before the season with paste wax. It seems to do a fine job of protecting the finish.

Cerakoting is a good option for a CM barrel if you want some good protection. I have several rifle so treated.

My 400 has been my all time favorite project and remains my favorite big game rifle.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
First major (kinda) setback of the project...

I ordered a SS barrel from Pac-Nor. It was invoiced as such and even stamped on the breach as such. It is all fitted to my action and the stock has been glass bedded to the barreled action. Since the MRC action is coated I asked my smith to test and see if it is stainless or CM. If it was stainless I would just bead blast the whole works...if the action is CM I would get the barreled action cerakoted to match. He ran the test with some cold blue gel on the receiver and it is CM...he put a little on the barrel and it turned out to be CM too!

I called pac-nor and they have been very responsive about making it right. They are willing to take the rifle back and do the rebarrel in-house so I am not out the work twice. No issues with them whatsoever but now I have a rifle that is 95% complete and being a .400 I am a little cautious on who actually puts it together since there isn't much margin for error on the headspace. Basically, I would be paying for work from a smith that I trust but having someone I don't know complete it.

A good portion of this rifles intended purpose revolves around Alaska and wet miserable conditions...thus the desire for stainless. I know CM rifles don't disintegrate at the first hint of moisture....heck, I think Mart hunted his "in the white" a bit if I am not mistaken???....but I have to decide whether I can live with the CM barrel or if it will bug me that my custom isn't exactly what I spec'd.

I did visit with a buddy that had a wildcat put together by Pac-nor and he has had no complaints with the work they did. His .17 Practical rifle shoots amazingly well.

They would be sending me a new barrel and paying what it cost me with the smith.
Originally Posted by mart
I did indeed hunt mine in the white. But it was good weather and only turned out to be a one day hunt. Before the next season I had it rust blued.

I have since hunted it in all kinds of bad weather. Inland and coastal. I’ve never had a spot if rust on it. I keep it cleaned and protected. I wipe it down liberally before the season with paste wax. It seems to do a fine job of protecting the finish.

Cerakoting is a good option for a CM barrel if you want some good protection. I have several rifle so treated.

My 400 has been my all time favorite project and remains my favorite big game rifle.

Mart, which wax do you prefer?

Thanks
I've never been worried about the exterior of a barrel rusting.
Johnson's paste wax is what I have on hand. Same can I've had for 20 years. It doesn't take a lot.
Thanks mart!
A little update...I decided to keep the Chrome Moly barrel and the rifle is complete enough to shoot. My 'smith tested it out today. He didn't have any H4895 or CFE 223 (I should have sent some with the gun) but he tested with H335 under the 360 grain north forks. Brass formed well but he was not impressed with the consistency in the primer pockets of the QC brass. Virgin cases varied from nice and firm to loose. 50 yard accuracy was acceptable for a fire form loading of various powder charges...basically a ragged hole (albeit .41 caliber bullets can make a BIG ragged hole).

He started at 55 grains and worked up to 63 grains. Max velocity was 2230. It was not showing any pressure signs as far as bolt lift or extraction. However, when he resized and reprimed the brass anything over 61.0 grains had loose pockets and the 63.0 grain load pretty well blew the pocket. He figures a max working load with that powder is around 2100 to 2150...a tad slow for a 360.

He described the recoil a substantial but slow...very similar to his .450 Marlin. Having owned a .450 before and familiar with its recoil impulse I am actually pretty excited to touch this off. Seems more then manageable.

I am not the least concerned about the velocities as that H335 was not even on my radar for a powder choice. I am however a little disappointed to here about the consistency, or lack thereof, in the QC brass. Having to cull a bunch when paying $2/case doesn't give a guy a lot of warm fuzzies. Luckily I also recently bought a bunch of virgin .35 Whelen brass so may just fireform a bunch of that for general shooting and then save a nice stash of properly headstamped .400 brass for if I ever travel internationally. I have 120 virgin .400 cases so should get 70-100 "tight" pockets I would hope...more then enough for a LOT of hunting.

The barreled action will be sent off to cerakote soon and I am picking up the stock and shipping it to HS precision to have it painted brown w/black webbing and have them install a red decelerator. Could be burning powder by the end of July!
Originally Posted by MedRiver
A little update...I decided to keep the Chrome Moly barrel and the rifle is complete enough to shoot. My 'smith tested it out today. He didn't have any H4895 or CFE 223 (I should have sent some with the gun) but he tested with H335 under the 360 grain north forks. Brass formed well but he was not impressed with the consistency in the primer pockets of the QC brass. Virgin cases varied from nice and firm to loose. 50 yard accuracy was acceptable for a fire form loading of various powder charges...basically a ragged hole (albeit .41 caliber bullets can make a BIG ragged hole).

He started at 55 grains and worked up to 63 grains. Max velocity was 2230. It was not showing any pressure signs as far as bolt lift or extraction. However, when he resized and reprimed the brass anything over 61.0 grains had loose pockets and the 63.0 grain load pretty well blew the pocket. He figures a max working load with that powder is around 2100 to 2150...a tad slow for a 360.

He described the recoil a substantial but slow...very similar to his .450 Marlin. Having owned a .450 before and familiar with its recoil impulse I am actually pretty excited to touch this off. Seems more then manageable.

I am not the least concerned about the velocities as that H335 was not even on my radar for a powder choice. I am however a little disappointed to here about the consistency, or lack thereof, in the QC brass. Having to cull a bunch when paying $2/case doesn't give a guy a lot of warm fuzzies. Luckily I also recently bought a bunch of virgin .35 Whelen brass so may just fireform a bunch of that for general shooting and then save a nice stash of properly headstamped .400 brass for if I ever travel internationally. I have 120 virgin .400 cases so should get 70-100 "tight" pockets I would hope...more then enough for a LOT of hunting.

The barreled action will be sent off to cerakote soon and I am picking up the stock and shipping it to HS precision to have it painted brown w/black webbing and have them install a red decelerator. Could be burning powder by the end of July!

Hell yeah! That's awesome stuff MR!

I am as excited as you to see this finished rifle!
Finally got the rifle back from cerakote and just waiting on the install of the irons. I went with a thin contour barrel so we are riding the ragged edge on having enough barrel thickness to drill for the screw holes on the front sight. The smith left the decision in my hands after explaining the risks. I am set on having sights so we are throwing caution to the wind and going for it. I guess if we have a major issue I may end up with a 19" .400 smile

Hoping it will be 100% done next week so I can start shooting it. Would like to at least shoot a doe or two with it this season.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Finally got the rifle back from cerakote and just waiting on the install of the irons. I went with a thin contour barrel so we are riding the ragged edge on having enough barrel thickness to drill for the screw holes on the front sight. The smith left the decision in my hands after explaining the risks. I am set on having sights so we are throwing caution to the wind and going for it. I guess if we have a major issue I may end up with a 19" .400 smile

Hoping it will be 100% done next week so I can start shooting it. Would like to at least shoot a doe or two with it this season.

You could install a front sight like the Ruger 77's have
Sweat on a banded front sight?
I discussed that option but since this one was just coated and would need to be recoated I opted against that. He felt it was adequate so should know soon enough smile
'Smith texted to tell me that he ordered a different style drill bit with a blunt cutting face and a bottoming tap to get as close to the bottom of the hole as possible. With those he was able to successfully install the front site and felt it was solid. ***Big sigh of relief***

He went to mount the rear sight and it uses a goofy 8-36 screw which is about the only thread tap he didn't have. He is rounding one up and as soon as he has that in his hands the sights (and the total rifle) will be finished shortly thereafter.

With any luck I will be burning some CFE223 soon and then trying to punch a .411 hole through a whitetail doe.
^^^^^^^^^^^^Great!!!!! aaways nice to get a rifle finished and put to work, you're going to love the 400 Whelen.
Sweat on barrel band for front sight if you are worried about barrel thickness at the muzzle. While cerakote works for the exteriot of the metal I choose stainless more for the bore of the barrel. When remote the exterior can be wiped down but the bore is more difficult to prevent rust.
Originally Posted by bobmn
Sweat on barrel band for front sight if you are worried about barrel thickness at the muzzle. While cerakote works for the exteriot of the metal I choose stainless more for the bore of the barrel. When remote the exterior can be wiped down but the bore is more difficult to prevent rust.

Agreed. Had ordered stainless but Pac-nor sent me a CM barrel...something we discovered way down the road in the process. Pac-nor has made it right but I have decided to keep the CM. Not ideal but it is something I can live with.
Was able to pick up my rifle on the way home from a successful elk hunt today. Makes for a pretty nice day all the way around.



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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Was very happy with the way it turned out and the weight and balance.

The only bummer is the feeding didn’t work out as smooth as hoped. The smith spent about 15 hours tweaking things and got it to where it will feed the 360 Northforks consistently but only with three down. Hopefully Barnes or Woodleighs will do better if I can ever get my hands on some.

Hoping to get it scoped this weekend and load up some CFE 223 loads to see what she will do.
Beautiful rifle.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Was able to pick up my rifle on the way home from a successful elk hunt today. Makes for a pretty nice day all the way around.



[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


Was very happy with the way it turned out and the weight and balance.

The only bummer is the feeding didn’t work out as smooth as hoped. The smith spent about 15 hours tweaking things and got it to where it will feed the 360 Northforks consistently but only with three down. Hopefully Barnes or Woodleighs will do better if I can ever get my hands on some.

Hoping to get it scoped this weekend and load up some CFE 223 loads to see what she will do.
Sweet!!
That’s a good looking rifle. Congratulations.
Very nice rifle. That’s a 400 made to hunt. I dig it.
Med River.....very cool rifle.
Med,

I don't think cfe 223 will give you acceptable velocity using 350 grainers from a carbine barrel. Its too slow.

I've got over 7 years of handloading and hunting a similar cartridge doing exactly what your about to do: 350 grainers from a 20" barrel.

Tac was too slow, 2230 was too slow. About the best I found, was slightly compressed loads of rl 10x. Better velocity and less recoil too.
Now you need a personalized plate to match.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
Originally Posted by mainer_in_ak
Med,

I don't think cfe 223 will give you acceptable velocity using 350 grainers from a carbine barrel. Its too slow.

I've got over 7 years of handloading and hunting a similar cartridge doing exactly what your about to do: 350 grainers from a 20" barrel.

Tac was too slow, 2230 was too slow. About the best I found, was slightly compressed loads of rl 10x. Better velocity and less recoil too.

Thanks for the heads up. I actually think I have a little 10X around here.
Originally Posted by mart
Now you need a personalized plate to match.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

Now that’s dedication to a cartridge!
You might consider aa2015 if you need a faster powder.
I had a great 35 Whelen 225 load. 60k+ load though.
I would think it well suited for a bigger bore 400 Whelen and a 350.
That's a great rifle MedRiver, you'll have lots of fun with the 400.

Mart, it looks as thought you've settled in.
Originally Posted by Storm
Mart, it looks as thought you've settled in.

Getting there. Still have a garage full of boxes. We did quite a bit of painting and flooring work before we started moving in. I need to get with Fish and Game to see what I need for a hunting license to call coyotes this winter until I qualify as a resident.
VX3 1.5-5x20 with Heavy Duplex and QD rings. Seems like a good fit.

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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

My neighbors horses hang out a 175 yards. At 5x the heavy duplex works great. Should be great for a moose rifle.
2.5X Leupold Alaskan on mine in G&H mounts.
Medriver and Elkhtr, both are good choices on a 400. Mine wears a Redfield 2 3/4x post and crosshair.
I tried the backwards .41 Mag bullet yesterday with H4198. I had some Virgin R-P .35 Whelen brass that necked up easily with a single pass in the .400 sizing die.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The shoulder looks like a perfect .458” to me.

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Looks great. Some H4895 and some 300, 350 and 400 grain bullets and you’re ready to hunt the world.
You bet Mart.

Great looking setup MedRiver, that turned out great, when i get all my Woodleighs shot up i cant wait to load the used to be .416 cal 400gr partitions Riflecrank drew down to .411" for me, imho, they will take no prisoners on any game animal up to Elephant.
Originally Posted by gunner500
You bet Mart.

Great looking setup MedRiver, that turned out great, when i get all my Woodleighs shot up i cant wait to load the used to be .416 cal 400gr partitions Riflecrank drew down to .411" for me, imho, they will take no prisoners on any game animal up to Elephant.

With the current state of the component market, swaging down .416 bullets seems to be one of the most viable options.
Exactly right MR, and with .com being down for repair the last few days, i went to the shop this afternoon to see what i could do with the 400 Whelen at 3.340" COL.

I had a few sticks of formed but not fired QC brass, seated in some FED-215's, loaded 68gr CFE-223 under all 400gr bullets, sent Riflecrank a pic, maybe he can post it after while.

Bullets in pic left to right are:

400gr ABW bonded Kodiak
400gr Swift A Frame
400gr Nosler Partition
400gr Woodleigh Weldcore
400gr Woodleigh Solid
400gr CEB BBW#13 Solid

Some if not most of these bullets are not directly out there for purchase from online dealers right now, all but the 400gr [Thanks Riflecrank] partition can be had, the rest are out there, a man just has to watch for them, the 400gr BBW#13 solid was loaded at 3.350" COL because of length, it still ran fine through my rifle, that said, if CEB makes a 350 grainer it would indeed be perfect and more than one would ever need from a 40 cal Solid.
Great stuff Jerry.

I actually just ordered 150 Hawks today. 100 350s and 50 400s. At just over $1 each they are actually a pretty affordable option…and they will be shipped next week after their production run.

I went with the 0.035” jacket. Hoping they feed well and are reasonably accurate. The ability to match the jacket to the game seems appealing if they will shoot to the same POI.

Sounds like they should open up down to 1600 fps or so…maybe less. That gives a little extra range for a guy shooting a stubby rifle at modest velocities.

My rifle feeds best with a shorter OAL so I had to back off some powder charges to avoid overpressuring. Velocities still seemed decent when I shot over the chrono yesterday afternoon with Reloder 10x (thanks Mainer) and a 360 North Fork. The extra freebore compensating for the capacity loss????

Pressures seemed good in the 2225-2275 range with sized, trimmed, and annealed Virgin QC brass. Stepped up to a tad over 2300 and the primer was flat. Never had any extraction or bolt lift issues.

Decided to be kind to the brass and stuck at 2225 which will keep the NF above 1800 fps to 200 yards. The shoulder is closer to .459” with these loads and a little sharper versus the 210s I was using with H4198 which made a .458” shoulder on non-annealed R-P .35 Whelen brass.

Sighted in 2-3 inches high and it is point and click out to a bit over 200 yards.

After hunting season will play with other combos for velocity and accuracy.

This rifle really is a pussycat with the 360s at 2225. I shot it interchanging with my .358 Norma today and would take the .400 everytime. Just a much more pleasant recoil impulse.

Lined up permission today on a farm with lots of deer. After thanksgiving hoping to shoot 2 or 3 does with this combo.
Originally Posted by gunner500
Exactly right MR, and with .com being down for repair the last few days, i went to the shop this afternoon to see what i could do with the 400 Whelen at 3.340" COL.

I had a few sticks of formed but not fired QC brass, seated in some FED-215's, loaded 68gr CFE-223 under all 400gr bullets, sent Riflecrank a pic, maybe he can post it after while.

Bullets in pic left to right are:

400gr ABW bonded Kodiak
400gr Swift A Frame
400gr Nosler Partition
400gr Woodleigh Weldcore
400gr Woodleigh Solid
400gr CEB BBW#13 Solid

Some if not most of these bullets are not directly out there for purchase from online dealers right now, all but the 400gr [Thanks Riflecrank] partition can be had, the rest are out there, a man just has to watch for them, the 400gr BBW#13 solid was loaded at 3.350" COL because of length, it still ran fine through my rifle, that said, if CEB makes a 350 grainer it would indeed be perfect and more than one would ever need from a 40 cal Solid.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Below, L to R: ABW Bonded Kodiak, Swift AF

[Linked Image]

Below, L to R: Nosler Partition, Woodleigh Weldcore

[Linked Image]

Below, L to R: Woodleigh Solid, CEB #13 brass FN Safari Solid

[Linked Image]
While we are at it, this rifle is believed to be the first .400 Whelen made by G&H for Townie,
and some more stuff here from Michael Petrov and elsewhere:

[Linked Image]

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Thanks for the pics RC. Great stuff.

Beautiful old rifle
Oh, about that bullet "draw down," it works great for jacketed and monometals, copper and even brass.
Review:
For .416" down to .411", get a 1-ton arbor press for cheap at Harbor Freight.
Lube the bullets by rolling on a Lyman case-lube pad with water-soluble RCBS Case Lube 2.
Go in steps of 0.003" to 0.002", 0.001" steps are very easy:
.413"
.411"
.409"
The last step down to 0.409" allows spring-back to 0.411".
A last step of 0.408" will allow spring-back to 0.410".
May as well throw in for .412" and size those .416" lead bullets to either .413" or .412",
whatever works best for your rifle.
The cast bullets do not spring back,
except the really hard ones to a small degree.
Regular reloading press works for them, with the base-pusher sizers.
And, maybe the Nosler Partition only springs back 0.0015" if the monometals do a full 0.002".

Last of my details from Townie's .400 Whelen rifle:

[Linked Image]

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[Linked Image]
Here is another idea for hardware to go on my slick-barreled .400 Whelen Ruger Hawkeye procrastination,
more of a simple flavor, more like Townie's rifle sights.
Remove the single standing leaf (dove-tailed with locking screw) for use of peep sight:

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BTW, if Sir Jerry chronographs any of his CFE-223 loads with various new bullets and new COLs
it would make for some new entries at AmmoGuide dotcom.
Such is the trust we all have in his reporting, but of course the loads will be attributed to "gunner500,"
even if they are entered by "ripr."
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Oh, about that bullet "draw down," it works great for jacketed and monometals, copper and even brass.
Review:
For .416" down to .411", get a 1-ton arbor press for cheap at Harbor Freight.
Lube the bullets by rolling on a Lyman case-lube pad with water-soluble RCBS Case Lube 2.
Go in steps of 0.003" to 0.002", 0.001" steps are very easy:
.413"
.411"
.409"
The last step down to 0.409" allows spring-back to 0.411".
A last step of 0.408" will allow spring-back to 0.410".
May as well throw in for .412" and size those .416" lead bullets to either .413" or .412",
whatever works best for your rifle.
The cast bullets do not spring back,
except the really hard ones to a small degree.
Regular reloading press works for them, with the base-pusher sizers.
And, maybe the Nosler Partition only springs back 0.0015" if the monometals do a full 0.002".

Last of my details from Townie's .400 Whelen rifle:

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Man, that is one beautiful rifle!
Those Hawks will be great fun and economical practice MR, the 360 NF's should do the rest with plenty to spare.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Here is another idea for hardware to go on my slick-barreled .400 Whelen Ruger Hawkeye procrastination,
more of a simple flavor, more like Townie's rifle sights.
Remove the single standing leaf (dove-tailed with locking screw) for use of peep sight:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

BTW, if Sir Jerry chronographs any of his CFE-223 loads with various new bullets and new COLs
it would make for some new entries at AmmoGuide dotcom.
Such is the trust we all have in his reporting, but of course the loads will be attributed to "gunner500,"
even if they are entered by "ripr."



LOL, damn, like minds Sir Ron, just got in from the chrono before dark, results:

400gr ABW Kodiak, 2259 fps
400gr Swift A Frame, 2276 fps
400gr Nosler Partition, 2260 fps
400gr BBW#13 Solid, 2232 fps

Both 400gr Woodleighs average 2255 fps, the pointed ABW's, NPT's and SAF's will give this rifle another 50-75 yards effective range, iirc the SAF's will expand down to 1650 on heavy game animals, a 250-275 yard middleweight that punches like a heavyweight with recoil next to nil packing 6 rounds on board is ready for anything, it's one of the most accurate rifles i own.

Yessir Big B, beautiful old classic rifle.
Numbers like that with 400 Grainers kinda gives me the feels goods all over. Thanks for sharing that info Jerry.

When I decide on “the” bullet. I think I will ship this rifle off for some additional work on the feeding. Would really like to load a little longer and see what she will do.
From gunner500:

"400gr ABW Kodiak, 2259 fps
400gr Swift A Frame, 2276 fps
400gr Nosler Partition, 2260 fps
400gr BBW#13 Solid, 2232 fps

Both 400gr Woodleighs average 2255 fps, the pointed ABW's, NPT's and SAF's will give this rifle another 50-75 yards effective range, iirc the SAF's will expand down to 1650 on heavy game animals, a 250-275 yard middleweight that punches like a heavyweight with recoil next to nil packing 6 rounds on board is ready for anything, it's one of the most accurate rifles i own."


I will get those put up at AmmoGuidedotcom.
I won't be correcting to MV, just reporting chrono velocities at what, 5 to 6 yards ?
Previous gunner500 loads were reported as with 23" barrel, same now ?

The handle "whelenhunter" has posted loads for 24" barrel.
I posted some "mart" loads with 24" barrel too.
My rifle has 23.6" barrel, to distinguish loads by me and Rusty McGee, Gunsmith: Not Kris Kristofferson's lyrics for the Janis Joplin song.

Rifle mileage varies of course, a shorter barrel may be faster than a longer one, etc.
Bullet "lubricity," seating depth and bearing surface all figure in on the same-powder-charge-and-same-bullet-weight loads.
Those AmmoGuide loads will be a good guide.

Will order some new barrel hardware for the Hawkeye .400 Whelen,
next in line after the Mauser .458 WinMag gets done up at the "Hilltop Gun Shop and Spa for Wayward Rifles."
Rusty does not think my name for his smithy is funny.
CFE-223 does a great job of keeping the copper fouling out of a barrel,
and I reckon I will be using CFE-223 for 400-grainers in the .400 Whelen.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
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I had to go back and get these, was thinking about this last night drifting off to sleep, that chrono shot was a 400gr Woodleigh solid, 18 feet from the muzzle.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
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These too, case head miked at .466" on virgin unfired QC cases, then .466" again on the 400gr solid load at 2267 fps says CFE-223 is the powder for 400gr bullets in my rifle, no over pressure problems here men.
Sir Ron, yes, 18 feet from muzzle and 23" barrel.
Just off the top of my head using the 400gr Swift A Frame at 2280 fps, i bet:

+3 at 100 would zero at 200 and be a foot low at 300 still packing Swift's minimum rec velocity for expansion of 1650 fps.


Would i slam a giant Eland bull in Africa or a once in a lifetime bull Moose in Alaska at 300 yards with this load, you bet! cool
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Numbers like that with 400 Grainers kinda gives me the feels goods all over. Thanks for sharing that info Jerry.

When I decide on “the” bullet. I think I will ship this rifle off for some additional work on the feeding. Would really like to load a little longer and see what she will do.


You bet MR, given your AO i'd look hard at the 300gr TSX too and study powder burn rate charts topping out at CFE-223 burn speeds looking for quicker burners than it, your rifle should easily 3.350" rounds.
She is a virgin no more…

After a fairly slow day the action got good about a half hour before dark. Ended up filling all three of my deer tags within about 20 seconds. All three dropped at the shot. The 360 makes a heckuva “WHOP” but damage is not excessive at all.

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Wasn’t able to fireform much brass though or work on my tracking skills frown smile smile
Great buck Med River! That’s the way to break a new rifle in!

Congrats and the rifle looks great laying over the buck!
That is the way to cull the herd to maintain its health and prevent roadkill.
I hope the third one was Bambi, along with Mom and Pop.
Culling of family units is always best, whether elephant or whitetail.
The .400 Whelen could handle either species, with the right bullets.
Great first blood on your .400 Whelen.
Congratulations.
Thanks! The third was actually a “button” buck and the doe was 3.5 and dry.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Thanks! The third was actually a “button” buck and the doe was 3.5 and dry.
A buck, a doe and a bambi.
You did proper culling.

I tried to post the latest gunner500 loads at ammoguide and had connectivity issues.
I will try again later and post the entire table here when possible.

Will also add my favorite fire forming load too,
reversed 210-grain Hornady XTP.
Same bullet loaded in usual direction makes a grood varmint plinker: 210-gr XTP near 2800 fps.
That is a tougher bullet than the 300-gr/.458 Sierra Pro Hunter which vaporizes at 2800 fps.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Thanks! The third was actually a “button” buck and the doe was 3.5 and dry.
A buck, a doe and a bambi.
You did proper culling.

I tried to post the latest gunner500 loads at ammoguide and had connectivity issues.
I will try again later and post the entire table here when possible.

Will also add my favorite fire forming load too,
reversed 210-grain Hornady XTP.
Same bullet loaded in usual direction makes a grood varmint plinker: 210-gr XTP near 2800 fps.
That is a tougher bullet than the 300-gr/.458 Sierra Pro Hunter which vaporizes at 2800 fps.

I used your load with the backwards XTP and H4198. Worked great.
You know how to break in a new rifle my friend. Outstanding!!
Here is the updated AmmoGuide load list:

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Here is a sample of the details from the "view" button on each load:

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View more at www.ammoguide.com
Thought you guys might like to see a few necropsy pics…

This is from the large doe that was basically full broadside. High shoulder shot. 360 NorthFork at 150 yards. Impact velocity around 1900 fps with energy at 2900 ft/lbs.

Entrance

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Inside (hit spine)

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Exit

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Obvious signs of expansion despite a relatively low resistance target (will cut up the very small button buck tomorrow). Very distinct “whoomph” sound on impact and obviously the deer went straight down…same as if hit with a .223 in the same place.

Total meat loss was not significant for that type of placement. I didn’t weigh it but would be shocked if it was much over a couple pounds…three at the extreme end.

My main concern with the NF was that it might be too tough for smaller game at the outer edges of its velocity window.

So far I think it is a winner on the small stuff.
Has anyone had JES rebore a rifle to 400 Whelen and how did it work out for you?
Man that's great stuff MR, congrats on the deer and maiden voyage with your 400 Whelen, yours has done exactly as mine has, puts game down right now, congrats Sir.

Sir Ron, thanks for the load data posting, it could come in handy saving some headaches and expense.

Speaking of headaches, that long 400gr BBW#13 solid load i put up at 3.350" has been kinda bugging me, so today, i took 5 sticks of new brass trimmed to 2.489 inch, drop tubed in 68gr CFE-223, set COL at 3.370 inch, loads ran like greased glass rods in and out of the rifle, i'll chrono and shoot for groups when the weather clears.

68gr's CFE-223 from a drop tube is just up to the bottom of the neck, that long solid seated for 3.370 inch is just barely compressing the powder, no bulges or any problems, if these bullets will run 2250 or better they'll shoot through any heavy game animal, would be kinda cool to go bust a bull Ele with the solids and a lion with a big Woodleigh round nose Weldcore soft, matter of fact, those two animals are all i have left for the Big V completion, hmmmmm ; ]
Well, just hit the bullet stability calculator, seems a 14 twist barrel with a bullet length of 1.508 long at 2250 fps gives a stability number of 2.66, PERFECT!!!!!, that's spun up tight enough to drill through anything.
Very cool Jerry! Doubt I will ever tackle the Big 5 but someday a buffalo might make the hit list. Sounds like plenty of gun for that!

Better take a camera guy to video when you tackle the last two on your list. Would love to see that footage.
Thanks and you bet, i'll have it videoed, speaking of drilling a buffalo, Cutting Edge Bullets is running a Black Friday sale, i just got 15% off and free shipping on several boxes of 400gr .411" BBW#13 solids, as well as 350gr .416" and 450gr .458" cal. solids for a couple PH buddies, if you have a good stash of 360gr NF's, that 350gr BBW#13 solid in .411" would be a perfect pairing, i'd tackle anything with those two.

Took some shop pics of today's experiment, Sir Ron says he'll get 'em posted up for us in a bit.
Cut up the lil’ fella today. No major bones were hit…just ribs. Very little mass to initiate expansion and the 360 NF still opened up very well and took him strait down. He did get to his feet and struggled for a few yards but it was all over in seconds.

At 125 yards or so impact velocity would be about 1950 fps and over 3k ft lbs of energy. Actually really happy to see this kind of expansion with very little resistance.

Entrance
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Inside entrance
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Exit side interior
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I did find some trauma away from the exit in the offside ribs. No idea if it was part of the jacket or maybe rib from the impact side?
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The bigger buck was taken at 185 which would be just over 1830 fps. I didn’t hang that one as my dad had never seen the gutless method in person so I took it home to show him and process the quarters without taking pics. That was a face on shot with a slight quartering angle and the bullet exited behind the offside shoulder. That bullet also opened very well.

I am thinking if these bullets are opening this well with minimal resistance at 1950 and decent resistance at 1830 they have a very good chance of opening well on much larger game somewhere below the magic 1800 fps mark.
Here gunner500 gives us a tutorial on turning a .400 Whelen into an elephant rifle, and as usual he does not disappoint:

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MedRiver said:
"I am thinking if these bullets are opening this well with minimal resistance at 1950 and decent resistance at 1830 they have a very good chance of opening well on much larger game somewhere below the magic 1800 fps mark."

Yes, those North Forks are great.
And now there are four different Shock Hammers from Hammer Bullets in .411-caliber:

250-gr:

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293-gr:

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326-gr:

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377-gr:

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That last one (377-gr) has a G1 BC = 0.425 !

Oh shucks, it is 1.61" long with a nose projection of 0.7599" and there are 9 PDR troughs along the shank.
It is the only one not suitable for most .405 WCF rifles.
Recommended twist for Dangerous Game is 1:14" or faster.
For Big Game 1:16" twist or faster recommended.
For DG you gotta spin the bullet faster when the bullet is that long.
For mere BG, not so much.

Heh-heh-heh.
Can't help but think of a slightly longer-throated ".400 Whelen+" to fit into a +3.6" mag box on an M70.
Forgive me.
As penance I am ordering the NECG barrel hardware for my Ruger M77 Hawkeye .400 Whelen right now!
Those CEB’s look like some penetrating SOBs. Chances of them feeding in my rifle at the moment…I would put right at 0% but you never know. Thanks for putting the pics together Gunner and RC!

Those hammers may be the cat’s meow. An all-copper 326 grainer might be the do-all for a North American guy, particularly when availability is such an issue.
How do the hammers compare to Barns triple shock?
Originally Posted by Dave_Spn
Has anyone had JES rebore a rifle to 400 Whelen and how did it work out for you?


I guess that's a no, but at least you guys can take pretty pictures.
Originally Posted by FNWhelen
How do the hammers compare to Barns triple shock?

They tend to blow the front end off of them and leave behind a Wide, flat shank that penetrates like crazy.

Originally Posted by Dave_Spn
Originally Posted by Dave_Spn
Has anyone had JES rebore a rifle to 400 Whelen and how did it work out for you?


I guess that's a no, but at least you guys can take pretty pictures.

I haven’t myself, but IF JES can do it, I’d expect less than 0 issues. He’s done quite a few of them for me at this point without a problem and they’ve all shot real well.
Originally Posted by Dave_Spn
Originally Posted by Dave_Spn
Has anyone had JES rebore a rifle to 400 Whelen and how did it work out for you?


I guess that's a no, but at least you guys can take pretty pictures.

He did my .35 but I don’t know if he does .400s or not. I don’t know of anyone with a JES .400 but he is good about calling back if you leave a message.
Yes he does 40 calibers. Close as a phone call. HINT1
Originally Posted by ElkHtrNevada
Yes he does 40 calibers. Close as a phone call. HINT1

That might cost me. With Hammers out there it’s nice to know you can get some hunting bullets pretty easily. I have a SS Classic 06 with a grey laminate on it. Might make a dandy 400.
Great wound track with that 360gr NF Judd, i believe the 326gr Hammer would be a fine bullet, and yes, as you said, "in stock and ready for delivery," that means a chit-ton today.
I need to reach out to JES and see what he says about the 400.

I’d imagine he’d have to set it back a thread to make it correct?
Many Thanks for posting those pics Riflecrank, the brass after fireforming is iirc around 2.485 inch, perfect imho, yessir, that one pic had 5 rounds in the belly of the beast, ran em quick through the rifle, damn near hit the south wall of the shop on eject, any guesses why i've told my Wife to NEVER vacuum the carpet in my load shop? with the spilled powder over the decades, live and dead primers, i think that Dyson of hers would be a bomb on wheels ; ]

Ordering from NECG's for that 400 Whelen of yours is next to a fresh baptism from the pastor in a cool summertime creek! cool cant wait to see it when finished, 377gr Hammers at 3.585" from a long action Model 70 would be kickass, our old friend AA-2460 would be a worldstar propellant for the lighter weights in the 400 Whelen, it's near a straight walled hull like the mighty 458 WM+ and we all know what it will do with 2230 and 2460 powders.
Originally Posted by beretzs
I need to reach out to JES and see what he says about the 400.

I’d imagine he’d have to set it back a thread to make it correct?


Maybe not Big B, rent and have sent to JES that 400 [Petrov] Whelen reamer, look on Quality Cartridge's website for cylindrical brass, CH4D for dies, slowly neck down to get a firm crush fit on bolt closing, trim to 2.490 then fireform, easy as pie Sir.

As Riflecrank said, my fireform loads were/are accurate enough to hunt Africa, iirc longest shot on 2015 Safari was an Impala Ram dead in the chest at 200 yards off sticks with 400gr Woodleigh Weldcore, bullet exited left of nutsack, he never moved, no need wasting the powder and lead.
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by ElkHtrNevada
Yes he does 40 calibers. Close as a phone call. HINT1

I have a SS Classic 06 with a grey laminate on it. WOULd make a dandy 400.

Fixed it for ya!
Originally Posted by gunner500
…any guesses why i've told my Wife to NEVER vacuum the carpet in my load shop? with the spilled powder over the decades, live and dead primers, i think that Dyson of hers would be a bomb on wheels ; ]

Perhaps the most impressive thing I have seen posted is that you have to tell your wife NOT to clean up your shop. The chances of my wife cleaning up my gun room….zero!

I don’t go in her crafting room except to steal stuff out of her mini fridge so I guess it works out.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by beretzs
Originally Posted by ElkHtrNevada
Yes he does 40 calibers. Close as a phone call. HINT1

I have a SS Classic 06 with a grey laminate on it. WOULd make a dandy 400.

Fixed it for ya!

Ha! Thanks MR!
Solid copy Gunner. I’ll give Jess a ring.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by gunner500
…any guesses why i've told my Wife to NEVER vacuum the carpet in my load shop? with the spilled powder over the decades, live and dead primers, i think that Dyson of hers would be a bomb on wheels ; ]

Perhaps the most impressive thing I have seen posted is that you have to tell your wife NOT to clean up your shop. The chances of my wife cleaning up my gun room….zero!

I don’t go in her crafting room except to steal stuff out of her mini fridge so I guess it works out.


LOL, my Wife is a busy little bee always getting into something, have to keep an eye of here around here, she runs marathons for crying out loud, way too much energy, be damned, my Wife is into crafting too, we may need to get Wives introduced while you and i go out and shoot something, hmmm ; ]
Originally Posted by beretzs
Solid copy Gunner. I’ll give Jess a ring.


Ten foe Big B, hope your '06 barrel has enough fat to make JES comfortable with his 40 cal drill bit.
BTW, winds blowing a million miles an hour out of the S/SW today so no reason to try and hunt deer or shoot for groups for that matter.

Ran out to the shop and drop tubed in another 68gr CFE-223 under some homemade .411" 400gr partitions, seated them at 3.370 inch, five went into the belly and ejected just fine, average of 2267 fps 18 feet from the chrono for three shots with a e.s. of 14 fps, man i'll take that, has a lot to say about Riflecranks talent running the draw down dies, fine work Sir.

I used that longer partition bullet to show how easy the shorter and sometimes available for purchase the .411" 400gr A-Frames will run in a 400 Whelen, all game worldwide up to elephant head shots and this side of 300 yards is well covered here.
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by beretzs
Solid copy Gunner. I’ll give Jess a ring.


Ten foe Big B, hope your '06 barrel has enough fat to make JES comfortable with his 40 cal drill bit.

Yeah, me as well. It’s a Winchester Sporter barrel. I’ll have to measure it and see what it goes.
Originally Posted by gunner500
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by gunner500
…any guesses why i've told my Wife to NEVER vacuum the carpet in my load shop? with the spilled powder over the decades, live and dead primers, i think that Dyson of hers would be a bomb on wheels ; ]

Perhaps the most impressive thing I have seen posted is that you have to tell your wife NOT to clean up your shop. The chances of my wife cleaning up my gun room….zero!

I don’t go in her crafting room except to steal stuff out of her mini fridge so I guess it works out.


..we may need to get Wives introduced while you and i go out and shoot something, hmmm ; ]

Sounds good to me!
Originally Posted by gunner500
BTW, winds blowing a million miles an hour out of the S/SW today so no reason to try and hunt deer or shoot for groups for that matter.

Ran out to the shop and drop tubed in another 68gr CFE-223 under some homemade .411" 400gr partitions, seated them at 3.370 inch, five went into the belly and ejected just fine, average of 2267 fps 18 feet from the chrono for three shots with a e.s. of 14 fps, man i'll take that, has a lot to say about Riflecranks talent running the draw down dies, fine work Sir.

I used that longer partition bullet to show how easy the shorter and sometimes available for purchase the .411" 400gr A-Frames will run in a 400 Whelen, all game worldwide up to elephant head shots and this side of 300 yards is well covered here.

Is there anything your Mauser won't eat??? Good stuff Jerry.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
My rifle feeds best with a shorter OAL so I had to back off some powder charges to avoid overpressuring. Velocities still seemed decent when I shot over the chrono yesterday afternoon with Reloder 10x (thanks Mainer) and a 360 North Fork. The extra freebore compensating for the capacity loss????

Pressures seemed good in the 2225-2275 range with sized, trimmed, and annealed Virgin QC brass. Stepped up to a tad over 2300 and the primer was flat. Never had any extraction or bolt lift issues.

Decided to be kind to the brass and stuck at 2225 which will keep the NF above 1800 fps to 200 yards.

You're welcome, you did good. The foolishness of jamming a bunch of slow ball powder in a lightweight short-barrel carbine/ 400 Whelen, only increases recoil with no increase in velocity. As you've experienced, the 2,300 fps sweet-spot using RL-10x, is a good place to be. Recovery from recoil is quick.

You have a very good Alaskan rifle. I've made a couple long shots with a 1.5-5 on a 9.3x62 mauser.. A 500 yd shot on a bull moose, and a 400 yd shot on a winter caribou. It's a well suited scope for typical ranges you'd shoot with a 350 grain 41 caliber.
"The foolishness of jamming a bunch of slow ball powder in a lightweight short-barrel carbine/ 400 Whelen, only increases recoil with no increase in velocity. "

Yeh, but the thrill of the fire ball.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by Dave_Spn
Originally Posted by Dave_Spn
Has anyone had JES rebore a rifle to 400 Whelen and how did it work out for you?


I guess that's a no, but at least you guys can take pretty pictures.

He did my .35 but I don’t know if he does .400s or not. I don’t know of anyone with a JES .400 but he is good about calling back if you leave a message.


Thanks, but I wasn't asking if he does it, I know he does, I was asking if anyone has had a 400 Whelen done by him.
QC on the Left - RP .35 on the right

Pretty signifanct difference in case head design. Anyone have any insight on that???

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Originally Posted by MedRiver
QC on the Left - RP .35 on the right

Pretty signifanct difference in case head design. Anyone have any insight on that???

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


The quality in Quality Cartridges has always been suspect to me.
Here is the latest from gunner500:

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No insight on the brass but at least the Qualcart has a thicker rim and correct headstamp.
I also have some AHR Howell Basic I used to make .400 Whelen.
Just necked it down, have not fired it.
QC, R-P, AHR: Will take a pic(s):

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Originally Posted by MedRiver
I know a few on here shoot .400 Whelens. I am looking hard at the 400 Woodleigh as the projectile of choice.

For those that shoot it…I believe Woodleigh recommends a minimum impact velocity of 1800 fps. Starting at 2100-2150 or so it falls below that around 150 yards.

Do you feel the 1800 fps minimum is conservative, aggressive or about right?

Anyone taking game further with good results?

Not trying to make the .400 something it ain’t…just trying to get an idea of what is realistic should I move forward with the project (presently debating between a .375-06, .400 Whelen, .358 Norma and .416 Taylor…neither of which do I need, lol)
Originally Posted by MedRiver
I know a few on here shoot .400 Whelens. I am looking hard at the 400 Woodleigh as the projectile of choice.

For those that shoot it…I believe Woodleigh recommends a minimum impact velocity of 1800 fps. Starting at 2100-2150 or so it falls below that around 150 yards.

Do you feel the 1800 fps minimum is conservative, aggressive or about right?

Anyone taking game further with good results?

Not trying to make the .400 something it ain’t…just trying to get an idea of what is realistic should I move forward with the project (presently debating between a .375-06, .400 Whelen, .358 Norma and .416 Taylor…neither of which do I need, lol)


I have a set of c4hd 40) Whelen griffin & Howe for sale if you like.
Thanks for the pics and info as always RC. That variance between the three brass manufacturers is interesting. I was actually thinking about a factory crimp die yesterday and put a .405 Winchester LFC die in my midway cart but haven't checked specs to see if it would work or not.
I have a friend with some Swiss screw machines, looking for work.I have suggested he turn brass solids for some of these more rare caliber sizes. Thoughts?
Originally Posted by Iclimb
I have a set of c4hd 40) Whelen griffin & Howe for sale if you like.

I appreciate that but already have a set.
21”

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Beauty!
Yep, mighty nice, Iclimb.

And here is the latest load revision
and the 43-load list for the 400 Whelen at AmmoGuide:

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That data is invaluable RC. Thank you curating that!
Originally Posted by MedRiver
That data is invaluable RC. Thank you curating that!
Welcome, my pleasure.
If you want your 360-gr North Fork load spelled out there:

-Bullet (Bullet overall length and BC also helpful if known)
-Brass
-Powder Charge (comment as to whether non-compressed or compressed)
-COL
-Any chrono results (and distance to chrono unless LabRadar or other direct MV)
-Barrel length
-Any alterations to G&H/Petrov chamber, such as re-throating,
or any and all other information to be detailed in the comments, such as Pac-Nor barrel make and twist, etc.

I would be happy to give you credit in the comments at AmmoGuide.
Going for 44th load in the list.
I appreciate that. I am actually planning to send this rifle off to get some feeding work done to it so that I can hopefully work with a longer COL. Will get more serious on load data after that.
Thanks for that data!

Riflecrank, any suggestions where I can find the dies to draw out the bullets? I see the setup with the arbor press etc…I reckon I need die’s
Iclimb,

What is the barrel length on that beauteous .400 Whelen ?

I use LEE and CH4D base-pusher, bullet-sizing dies, collected over the years.
I have not been able to find any of the N.O.E. sizers that I need, so have not tried them.

LEE are less expensive than CH4D, if you can find them.
Used to be able to custom order those.
Same for the CH4D.
I got some ready-made off the shelf by internet order, some by telephone call to ask/custom order, etc.
The same dies are useful for sizing lead bullets too, as well as applying the gas checks.
Soft lead sizes true.
Hard lead alloys might spring back .001".
Jacketed and Monometals of brass and copper might spring back .0015" to .002".
My hardcast ".458-caliber" bullets pushed through a .460" sizer will end up at .461" diameter,
whether using a LEE or CH4D bullet sizer.

Here are my CH4D dies for going from .416- to .411- to .408-caliber:
.412
.410
.409
.408
.407
.406

Just to show that I like LEE dies too, for going from .408- to .395-caliber (pet wildcat),
I use these LEE dies:
.405
.400
.397
.396
.395
.394
21”-22” actually can’t remember hahahah I’ll look. It swings awesome. Ok I’ll have to get ahold of CH4D and see what they have. So is the pusher universal? I assume the sizing pieces listed are like bushings of sorts and the piece they fit in is like a universal die? I need to find some info. Please forgive my naivety…
The standard CH4D and LEE bullet-sizer dies are a one-piece, steel die body with proper sizer hole bored through it
plus a pusher rod for each sizer.

NOE has a die body that accepts different sized inserts.
I hope they are-all steel parts.

LEE has recently added a new type sizer that is similar to the NOE in being a die body with inserts.
Aluminum parts house the steel inserts for the LEE, however.
I have tried that one, compliments of gunner500.
After sizing some .510 to .505,
I could not get the threaded parts unstuck, they were "cold-welded" by the arbor press.

Maybe NOE can handle jacketed and monometal sizing as well as cast lead.
Until I have tried it, I can only recommend the "unibody" sizers from LEE and CH4D.
Thanks I’ve emailed CH4D and I’ll look for an arbor press…
.416 Whelen next time 🤣🤣
Put this video together tonight. Let me know what you think or if I should change something. Pretty easy to change it as the main actor and production crew all work cheap.

Great vid MedRiver
Thanks beretzs. I just put together another one using bullseye and corn meal. I used this method on my .30 Gibbs project and like being able to do it inside my shop anytime I want. Not as fun as actually shooting stuff though smile

That's the same way I used to form Mashburn brass back in the day. Like you, I just ended up switching to using bullets. Now, with stuff harder to get I might get back to Bullseye again!
Originally Posted by Iclimb
21”

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That's a DANDY!
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Put this video together tonight. Let me know what you think or if I should change something. Pretty easy to change it as the main actor and production crew all work cheap.


Great video.
I especially liked the "BANG" special effect.
Your use of a deep socket as a cartridge holder on the electric drill spinner was also cool.
That will keep the flame off of the lower case and is a heat sink in itself.
I pitch them from the spinner into a pan of water, quick as I see the color change start to appear at the shoulder-neck juncture.
I will get rid of the short little aluminum Hornady cartridge holder they included with their old "Tempa-Lacq" annealing kit, or whatever it was called.
Deep socket henceforth.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Thanks beretzs. I just put together another one using bullseye and corn meal. I used this method on my .30 Gibbs project and like being able to do it inside my shop anytime I want. Not as fun as actually shooting stuff though smile


15 grains of Bullseye, duly noted as another fire-forming recipe for my old box of stale COW.
Straight yellow cornmeal also is a great idea. Gluten free for those poor, deprived folks who have to avoid wheat.

It would be interesting to know what the length of your brass is,
.35 Whelen R-P before
and .400 Whelen after fire-forming.
For gunner500, heh-heh-heh:

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And add a recoil lug to the bottom of the barrel, and crossbolts and grip rod in stock,
and my .400 Whelen will be half-assed no more, heh-heh-heh.
That will look great when it is all put together. I vote to refinish the whole thing.

Will get some measurements on the before and after. Case mouths seem a little straighter overall with the cornmeal versus running through the die so will likely be able to maintain a longer neck just from saving on trimming to the lowest common denominator.
Virgin Hornady .35 Whelen Brass (Multiple Cases)- 2.480-2.486" OAL
Corn Meal Fired to .400 Whelen (3 Cases)- 2.460", 2.468", 2.498" OAL
Interesting that one case grew longer than it started off.
Sounds like the 15 grains of Bullseye is sufficient for blowing out .35 Whelen into .400 Whelen.
Amen.

About that Ruger Hawkeye .400 Whelen,
yep, if I add a barrel lug and the other hardware, will need to re-finish the barrel metal at least.

Wood needs to be stripped and oil-finished too.
That will bring out the tiger stripes hiding under the varnish.
I took it out of the stock to remind myself of how it was originally set up.
Stock has a perfect bedding job now, with pillars and hidden cross bolts fore and aft of magazine well.
Won't need the exposed cross bolts.

Rusty didn't think it needed a barrel lug when he did the original work.
He has done plenty other ones for me, harder kickers.
A barrel lug will be gilding the lilly on this one,
and along with a rod under the grip cap, that should assure the walnut lasts.
A B&C Medalist stock is another idea ... but first, a little respect for the walnut.
Amen again.
I tried a few yesterday at 16 and 17 grains. No major change to the shoulder. May settle at 16 grains.
Jolly good then, 16 grains of Bullseye it is.
IIRC, we were using 20 grains of Unique previously.
Bullseye is a hotter/faster powder than Unique.
Unique would require more powder.
Your 16-grain charge of Bullseye seems to be about as good as it gets
for the cornmeal-fireforming load.
Ah shucks.
The Ruger factory wood is nowhere near as special as that on gunner500's Magnificent Mauser.
All the other Marvelous .400 Whelen rifles showing off here have synthetic stocks.
I am going to save my walnut for Sunday-go-to-meeting,
and just put mine into a B&C Medalist, easy-peasy, no barrel lug required,
no matter for lack of visible cross bolts to replace the hidden ones for show.
Just need to sand out the B&C barrel channel to fit the No.5 sporter.
Originally Posted by Riflecrank
Ah shucks.
The Ruger factory wood is nowhere near as special as that on gunner500's Magnificent Mauser.
All the other Marvelous .400 Whelen rifles showing off here have synthetic stocks.
I am going to save my walnut for Sunday-go-to-meeting,
and just put mine into a B&C Medalist, easy-peasy, no barrel lug required,
no matter for lack of visible cross bolts to replace the hidden ones for show.
Just need to sand out the B&C barrel channel to fit the No.5 sporter.

I wouldn’t mind a nice walnut stock but their is some beauty in functionality also.
Thanks! Great vids/info
The .400 Whelen stock is on the way, no barrel lug will be required.
B&C:
There is a 'Pre-Christmas" sale on for Dec. 15 & 16, 2022, get 15% off.
$48 comes off at checkout when you buy a $320 stock, it becomes $272 + $15 shipping.

Ruger M77 MKII and Hawkeye Sporter Stock, Long Action, #1055.

https://www.bellandcarlson.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=1157

Says it has a "factory Ruger magnum contour" barrel channel.
Maybe no sanding of barrel channel will be required for my rifle.
13.65" LOP and weighs "Approximately 2.0 lbs."
Full 6061-T6 aluminum endoskeleton from grip to forearm tip.

This is the 5th one of the B&C Medalist stocks I have bought, for Win M70s, CZ 550s, and finally a Ruger M77.
Very satisfying. I prefer them over the HS Precision of which I have 3, two for Win M70 and one Ruger M77.
I like black with red spider web.
Should look nice Riflecrank!
I don’t have regerts but I do wish this sweet FN would have come into my life at the start of this project. It is a .35 Whelen but I ran some .400 rounds through the mag and it feeds them like they were soaked in butter. The fact that the serial starts with 400 is kinda cool too.

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Someone had already converted the safety and the custom barrel is nice.

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Would have made a great donor but makes a damn-fine .35 Whelen as-is.
Nice one.
Highjack continued, I could not bear to re-barrel this .35 Whelen to .400 Whelen either.
Even to run a .35 Brown Whelen into it would be sacrilige.

Pre-'64 M70 Winchester .35 Whelen like the factory never made, but should have:
1952 M70 action from .30-06
1958 walnut from .300 H&H
1993 Douglas No. 4 sporter with 1:12" twist, 24" length

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Old Weaver K-3 scope in Kimber rings and bases above.
Below, the scope bases were made by Talley to fit Ruger No. 1 OEM rings onto the M70, same scope.
First blood, two shots, two bangflops, two DRT, two braces of tasty pork chops from Tennessee,
Remington factory ammo 250-grain RNSP "Core-Lokt" IIRC:

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The .400 Whelen would of course be more appropriate for a 1000-pound hogzilla.

Here are those Talley-Ruger bases
and a comparison of the Shilen No. 4 sporter, .411-caliber, 1:14" twist, feather-weight trimmed
(proof-tested with 400-gr bullet at +2400 fps, heh-heh-heh),
compared to the Douglas No. 4 sporter, .358-caliber, 1:12" twist:

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Usual fast delivery by B&C, what a snap, ordered 5 days ago, arrived on this day, the winter solstice:

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My previous B&C stocks for M98, M70, and CZ550Mag have been in the 2.0- to 2.5-pound range after bedding.
This one will be about 2.0 lbs with some epoxy in the barrel channel and action recoil lug recess of titanium-aluminum alloy.
That is about a half-pound lighter than the HS Precision Ruger M77 Mk II stock.
The black and red looks sharp!
Med-what is the story on the FN 35 W? I must have missed that one. Personally, I am a fan of the FNs but 338 is the biggest bore I've owned on one. This looks like a nice rifle.
I'd leave that Whelen as is, or sell it to someone in Iowa, Louisiana, or Mississippi where this cartridge is legal for regular season deer hunting. There has to be an unloved 30-06 in a FN action around here someplace. A shake on the classified tab might make ten of them fall out
Originally Posted by LEADMINER
Med-what is the story on the FN 35 W? I must have missed that one. Personally, I am a fan of the FNs but 338 is the biggest bore I've owned on one. This looks like a nice rifle.

The story is I walked into a local gun store a week or two ago and that was on the shelf for next to nothing. I am a .35 guy so it had to follow me home. Planning to shoot it this week.

Originally Posted by Gaschekt
I'd leave that Whelen as is, or sell it to someone in Iowa, Louisiana, or Mississippi where this cartridge is legal for regular season deer hunting. There has to be an unloved 30-06 in a FN action around here someplace. A shake on the classified tab might make ten of them fall out

I actually just sold an FN (commercial) .270. This one is staying as-is. Had it come along six months ago it might have been in serious trouble wink
Looks like a good catch,MR. I've been following the thread and noticed this rifle showed up. May not be a .400 but pretty useful round, it seems to me.
Originally Posted by LEADMINER
Looks like a good catch,MR. I've been following the thread and noticed this rifle showed up. May not be a .400 but pretty useful round, it seems to me.

Thanks!

.400s are fun but hard to beat the overall utility of a .35. Pretty small number of scenarios where I would feel under-gunned with a .35 Whelen shooting a good bullet.
I know one fellow from here went to Africa with his 400 Whelen.

What's everyone's tally of big game they have with the 400? Bullets and experiences.

IIRC, Elmer's was 17 or 18 big game animals, which has been a goal of mine to eclipse, although it's never included elk, moose and anything substantially over 300 pounds.
Originally Posted by HawkI
I know one fellow from here went to Africa with his 400 Whelen.

What's everyone's tally of big game they have with the 400? Bullets and experiences.

IIRC, Elmer's was 17 or 18 big game animals, which has been a goal of mine to eclipse, although it's never included elk, moose and anything substantially over 300 pounds.

So far just three whitetails with three 360 Northforks.
Two caribou and one moose with mine. Looking forward to adding deer, black bear, elk and antelope to the list.
Nothing like wading into a good forum discussion 21 pages deep but have read the majority of it and I am liking the idea. I have a LH M70 Classic that is begging to be rechambered and I have a line on a barrel that is 411 groove but 403 bore. Anybody see any issues with the 403 bore in a 400 Whelen?
I don't see an issue with that depth of rifling but I'm certainly no expert in those matters.
Originally Posted by mart
I don't see an issue with that depth of rifling but I'm certainly no expert in those matters.

Confirmed same with my smith. Barrel is incoming.
Originally Posted by JMJ888
Originally Posted by mart
I don't see an issue with that depth of rifling but I'm certainly no expert in those matters.

Confirmed same with my smith. Barrel is incoming.

My only recommendation is to get some dummy rounds put together and see how they feed in your action BEFORE having it rebarreled. May save some headache down the road.
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Originally Posted by JMJ888
Originally Posted by mart
I don't see an issue with that depth of rifling but I'm certainly no expert in those matters.

Confirmed same with my smith. Barrel is incoming.

My only recommendation is to get some dummy rounds put together and see how they feed in your action BEFORE having it rebarreled. May save some headache down the road.


That's not a bad idea.
Has anybody played with the 326 or 377gr Hammer bullets yet?
Anybody have a couple of dummies they want to "rent out"...I need to send them to the smith to check feeding after chambering. I will pay shipping both ways plus a rental fee. Using Petrov/G&H reamer.
Originally Posted by JMJ888
Anybody have a couple of dummies they want to "rent out"...I need to send them to the smith to check feeding after chambering. I will pay shipping both ways plus a rental fee. Using Petrov/G&H reamer.

Do you have any bullets lined up yet? I would be happy to send some fired brass if you have dies and bullets. Otherwise, all I have on hand other than cast are 360 NF. Be happy to send some dummies of those if you want, just let me know your max OAL. You can PM your address and any details on the dummies if you want.

Same goes for anyone else working on a build. I will gladly send some fired cases or dummy rounds set up to your preferred OAL. A few dummy rounds early on would have saved me a lot of grief.

Still not happy with the feeding on mine to the point where I am seriously considering re-barreling this action to something else (probably 9.3x62 if they feed well) and (re)building my .400 on a different action. I have a Pre-64 model 70 action that will be here tomorrow. If it feeds well from the go it may be a simple barrel swap, refinish the steel to match and then find an appropriate stock. I have a couple of 'smiths that are willing to look at it prior to doing something drastic, but the possibility of spending hundreds of dollars and not improving anything is real. Still waiting on my Hawk bullets to see if they make a difference but I think the feeding issue is mainly in the case design. I tried some of my .30 Gibbs cases (basically an improved-improved .30-06) and they didn't feed well. Standard .35 Whelen feeds great with 250 spitzers so anything '06 based from .35 down that is not improved would be a candidate for the rebarrel if the 9.3 won't feed.
After MANY hours of screwing around this thing is finally feeding everything from a super short 210 XTP to a 400 cast with a big ‘ol meplat. Not ready to hunt Cape buffalo with it but ready for a lot of range time till I am 100% confident in it.

Thanks to MedRiver for the fired cases...I loaded up some 0.411 Hammer 326gr set to 3.290" length. Will send these off to my smith to check feeding and should be in business. CH4D had a seater and a neck sizer only...I put the full length sizer on backorder but they said 18-24 months. Will have to figure a solution to that one along the way.


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Attached picture 400 Whelen 2.jpg
Looks great. Looking forward to your build progress!
Med, try a stronger magazine spring. Test this out first, by doubling 2 magazine springs and see if it fixes it (for test purposes only)

Take that stoopid stopper thingy oughtta the box.

The heft of these rounds is too much for a stock mag spring, the recoil as well.
Never thought to double the mag spring. Interesting, will try that out so see what it changes.

I have been running rounds through it every day and am 100% satisfied with its feeding with bullets I want to hunt with. Got some 400 Hawks the other day and they fed very well. I will occasionally stuff a 210 Hornady but that just provides good practice for un-stuffing a stuff-up smile

Hoping the good feeding of heavier bullets holds true after some range time. Between the short days of winter, a solid work load, mountain lion season and filling some late season elk tags I haven't got to play much at the range.
Originally Posted by HawkI
I know one fellow from here went to Africa with his 400 Whelen.

What's everyone's tally of big game they have with the 400? Bullets and experiences.

IIRC, Elmer's was 17 or 18 big game animals, which has been a goal of mine to eclipse, although it's never included elk, moose and anything substantially over 300 pounds.

I went .410 bore on my wildcat cartridge, so I could simply neck up 9.3x62 brass with no other fiddly bllsht. Identical ballistics to a 400 Whelen. The 350 grain a-frame is .410 and I like my bore to match my bullets. I practiced lots with .410 pistol bullets as well.

What I've found, is the stopping power on big rut-raged bulls, was instantaneous, using the 350 grain A-frames. Compared to bulls shot with 9.3x62 or 358 winchester, where they'll stay upright and need a second shot to tip over.

The .410 swift A-frame expands much wider than .358 and 9.3 bullets, so it's not surprising. Here's my thoughts:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...41-vs-358-9-3-on-bull-moose-observations

41 caliber cartridges are in a different fkn league than medium bores. I've since moved on to the 416 Ruger. Boxes of dgx bonded stuff everywhere, convenience is too nice to pass up. The stuff clocks 2455 fps from my 22" barrel.

Recovered 350 grain 41 compared to 300 grain 9.3. Both A-frames, both moose shot on camera:

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Great pictures Mainer!
Originally Posted by MedRiver
Never thought to double the mag spring. Interesting, will try that out so see what it changes.

The problem ain't fixed, till you get a stonger mag spring..

Back in 2004, my issued m249 machine gun wouldn't work with my back-up 30 round mag. It would only work with the belt-fed stuff. Gutted my back-up mag, doubled the springs and it worked flawlessly.

More recently, my witness compact 10mm jammed, even after wolf springs. Doubled mag spring from my second mag Problem fixed.

416 Rigby kimber: would spit rounds when u opened bolt. Stronger mag spring, problem fixed.

Too fkn easy dude......
Just found something that may be of interest...I like the idea of a crimp on the .400. My seating die won't roll crimp the short .35 Whelen brass and the Hawk bullets don't have a cannelure. I ordered a .405 Win Lee Factory Crimp die which did not work when putting the cartridge in the shellholder on the press. The shellholder contacts the press too soon and I would be crimping the bullet itself right in front of the case mouth (you can see in the pic below where I did just that with one of my dummy rounds).

Simple solution is to swap the shellholder for a quarter. Doing that I was just barely able to put a factory crimp on my short .35 Whelen Brass and the 350 Hawk. The QC brass is plenty long to crimp nicely with enough length to adjust the die for the desired level of crimp.


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Great tip. Coin raises the slightly shorter case.
.400 Whelen 2.49" brass versus 2.58" .405 WCF brass.
Good that the .405 WCF LEE FC die does not touch and size down the shoulder of the fairly long-necked .400 Whelen.

If a case was slightly too long for a make-do Lee FC die, the shell holder could be left in place
and a washer-like hunk of steel fitted around the case to make contact for crimp in right place,
as long as there wasn't a shoulder issue.

I am going to see if I can order a .405 WCF LEE FC die right now if I can find one.
Howdy! Newly registered. I read through all 23 pages and there is loads of information in it...thanks all!

A 'smith buddy and I are in the process of building a couple of .400's and have run into a problem I did not see mentioned. In using the Qual-Cart 400 basic cases, the necks come up too thick. We know how to solve this but I was curious if any others have run into this issue?

Thank you!
You must have skipped over this on page 4 of the thread ?

Originally Posted by Riflecrank
I started down this road in 2012 when THE GUNSMITH got a bee in his bonnet for building his own .400 Whelen on an M98,
so we shared reamer and brass costs, and he got to work out the bugs and teach me how to load the .400 Whelen,
and build my .400 Whelens.

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Whatever Peter Cardona did at Quality Cartridge, his correction allowed us not to have to outside neck turn the brass, whew !
If your brass is messed up, send it back for correction.

Oh yeah, while I was ordering that .405 WCF LEE Factory Crimp Die from Midway USA, thanks again to Med River for idea,
I also found an off-the-shelf LEE trim die for the .458 WinMag, hubba hubba !
I did see that report. However, what we are seeing is not a donut but simply a thick neck. It's easy enough to recover from but I did not note any others reporting this. Just curious....

Thanks!
Well, excuse me for playfully calling it a terminal donut.
Not a donut.
Actually it was just excessive neck wall thickness in the terminal portion of the neck.
N-2 diameter at case mouth was greater than N-1 diameter at shoulder juncture with a bullet seated.
Just the opposite of a donut.
Same problem as you have.
Same solution I had,
send the brass back to QC so as not to have to do the laborious neck turning.
Ah! Sorry, I completely missed the joke. I read donut and decided that wasn't what we saw.

Also, I didn't consider this as you referenced a problem from 2012 whereas this lot of brass is from 2021 or so. I suppose it could be NOS or something but it's been 9 years...

Thanks for your clarification.
Having been playing with this rifle quite a while now. I took it to the Texas/Mexio border last month to look for a pig but was mostly focused on getting my 10 year old daughter one. I re-scoped it with a 2-7 Leupold with thick crosshairs for a little better low light and night time setup versus the 1.5-5x 20 that had been on it.

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I had set the zero to be dead on at 100 yards as that is where I anticipated the pig shooting to be at. After 1800 miles I took it out to test zero and was pretty darn happy...

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My 10 year old did the same with her .243 and we were ready to hunt...

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The outfitter had indicated that he didn't have a lot of pigs but tended to have big pigs. What we saw on camera confirmed that. Mostly boars on the property and Addie focused on a nice two tone boar. Took some patience but we managed to find Addie her "Dream Pig" so all was good...

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Not sure why I am shooting a .400 when an 85 TSX out of a stubby .243 kills them pretty darned dead, lol.

I may have finally settled on my favorite way to make brass. QC is obviously the easiest and is headstamped properly. However, I have not been particularly happy with the consistency of the primer pockets (some virgin cases are very tight and some are fairly loose and don't hold up to very many firings). My QC cases do have the "reverse donut" issue mentioned above also. Not enough to interfere with chambering but it is annoying when you pay $2/case.

I have formed a lot of cases with the reverse .41 caliber bullet method as well as Cream of Wheat. Both work. Using virgin Hornady .35 Whelen cases I was getting some excessive case stretching as I ended up with a few cases separating on the 2nd or 3rd firing. I figured it is better to do most of the forming with a die so I can better control where the brass flows from and to during fireforming. Also, I am at the point with the rifle where I just want lots of trigger time with actual hunting loads in field positions. Having a fire-forming load strictly for making brass and a separate hunting load isn't as efficient for my limited range time and finite supply of LR primers.

An expander die that will straighten the whole case out would be great if I had one. I tried a .416 Ruger die but it doesn't quite get the shoulder where it needs to be. I fiddled around and settled on using a .40 S&W expander die to expand out the case mouth down to below the neck shoulder junction on a virgin annealed .35 Whelen Hornady case.

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Expands the case out a fair bit to allow necking down and forming an appropriate shoulder to headspace off of and minimize brass flow (I think...I don't know much about metallurgy and such)

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Imperial sizing wax outside, inside and a little on the expander for the first case or two is your friend...

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From there I simply run it into my .400 Whelen FL sizing die far enough for a snug fit in the chamber. Occasionally I would have a case that had to be backed out and re-lubed. The result is a band just below the shoulder junction that is about .458"

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The difference in case capacity between this and a fully formed case is negligible. I shot some 350 and 400 Hawks with enough H4895 to get velocities where I expected them to be with legitimate hunting loads.

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Cases end up short (they averaged 2.415" to 2.420" before firing) but they are nicely formed and I will be practicing at the range with a load producing a similar POI, trajectory and recoil impulse as my actual hunting loads.
Nice.
I appreciate how much you get all your kids out hunting!
Well I ended up pushing my Whelen project down on the priorities list to instead build my young boys their first rifle...figured getting them out hunting this year was more of a priority.

I have a Krieger #5 contour, 16 twist, CM, 403/411 blank sitting here if someone is looking to build a 400 and needs a barrel.
I just modified a fired case to make it work in the Hornady COL gauge. If you wish to do the same, I found the 5/16-36 tap to be the correct thread pitch and a 19/64" drill bit gave a nice pilot. Anyway.....

Did some playing around with the bullets I have on hand and found that the reamer (4D Reamer Rentals) we used on this rifle is almost ideal for the 360 North Fork. Lands are right around 3.392" with that bullet so no problem taking advantage of the whole Winchester length mag box. The 350 Hawks have to be seated shorter due to their shape (about 3.115" on average) but due to their much shorter bullet length 1.187" vs 1.395" they don't actually protrude into the powder space much more (about 0.045" if I did the math right). The cast also have to be short on OAL but still only go into the powder space a bit more than the NF.

Where the wheels fall off a bit is with the 400 grainers. A 400 grain Round Tip Hawk hits the lands at about 3.125" COL and a 400 grain FN LBT cast at around 2.8". They are both ending up way down in the case. If you plan on a .400 build and want to maximize the cartridge for 400 grainers I would recommend getting a throating reamer to set it up for the bullets you want.

For me, I think the 360 North Fork is going to be my be-all-end-all bullet for game and the Hawk is cheap enough for practice at comparable velocities and POI. I may still play with some powder combos to see if I see much change in accuracy/velocity. However, for all intents and purposes, Mainer's suggestion of a stiff load of RL 10x under the 360 NF gets me all the velocity and accuracy I need for 200 yard hunting (it hits 1800 FPS right around the 200 yard mark). That level of performance matches the original intent of the build. I do plan to do some expansion tests at 250 and 300 yards just for giggles and on the odd chance my dream moose is standing at 201.5 yards instead of 199.

When I get serious about flinging 400s I have a .416 barrel blank here and will just build a .416 Ruger. That is a significant and easy step up and will keep Mainer from being disappointed with all the "hobbiest B.S." as I think he put it so eloquently once smile Actually he will still probably get excited because the factory Ruger .416 rifle is the easy button. Unfortunately, they are also dang hard to find and north of $2K when you do (I just sold one well north of that and the buyer was happy to get it).

The only thing I have left to do is get the open sights regulated to match my hunting load and this project will be officially put to bed. The rifle does string a bit which I believe to be due to some flex in the forend creating contact. I should probably open the barrel channel a bit but fit is so nice as-is I hate to mess with the aesthetics for a nominal and unnecessary accuracy improvement (my notes show the NF around 1"-1.5" and the Hawks at 1.5"-2".
Medriver,
Yep 350-360 grain bullets are just right. Was enjoyable to shoot with rl 10x handloads, from an 8.5 lb scoped rifle.

In the 416 ruger, I'd like to use the same bullet weight.

But the 400 grain factory dgx bonded stuff is just too simple to pass up. 2450 fps from a 22.5" barrel, over the chronograph.
I must be obsessed with the 400 Whelen…

I’ve had two built that were disasters. One ridiculously expensive switch barrel on a GMA action and one on a Sako 85. The first builder was over his skies and promised the world, he had some great sample rifles but he couldn’t deliver the work? The second was just the wrong action choice, the smith told me he had built one on a Sako 85 but he latter admitted it was a 35 Whelen and the magazine just doesn’t work well with that fat a cartridge.

I’m having Mark Basner build me one on a Win 70 and I know he knows those rifles and I’m sure he’ll get me a great 400 Whelen in a safari express style rifle with synthetic stock, express sights, barrel band sling swivel, and a 1-8x24 Swaro z8i. I’m confident it will be amazing. It’s going to Alaska with me in 2024.

But … I still jonesing for a classic wood and steal 400 Whelen on a 1903 Springfield to bring to Africa. I hunt Africa twice a year and it would be really fun on pigs and PG as well as hippo and buff.

If you were having a 400 Whelen built on a 1903 Springfield today … what smith would you use?
pm on the way.
Originally Posted by jcberiau
I must be obsessed with the 400 Whelen…

I’ve had two built that were disasters. One ridiculously expensive switch barrel on a GMA action and one on a Sako 85. The first builder was over his skies and promised the world, he had some great sample rifles but he couldn’t deliver the work? The second was just the wrong action choice, the smith told me he had built one on a Sako 85 but he latter admitted it was a 35 Whelen and the magazine just doesn’t work well with that fat a cartridge.

I’m having Mark Basner build me one on a Win 70 and I know he knows those rifles and I’m sure he’ll get me a great 400 Whelen in a safari express style rifle with synthetic stock, express sights, barrel band sling swivel, and a 1-8x24 Swaro z8i. I’m confident it will be amazing. It’s going to Alaska with me in 2024.

But … I still jonesing for a classic wood and steal 400 Whelen on a 1903 Springfield to bring to Africa. I hunt Africa twice a year and it would be really fun on pigs and PG as well as hippo and buff.

If you were having a 400 Whelen built on a 1903 Springfield today … what smith would you use?

Be sure to post up some pics of your Bansner .400 when it is done. As much as I like mine. I think a barrel band sling swivel and a banded front sight would have been nice. I have a .458 project going and already have the banded front sight piece procured...just need to get the barrel band swivel piece and decide on the rear sight option.
I have a few pics of the rifle before finishing. How do I post them?
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