I've long had a fascination with bigger rifles, but must confess to being just a deer, elk & bear hunter. Yeah - there's a slim possibility of a trip for moose someday, or maybe even Africa... But I'm realist enough to know those are slim possibilities. Hunting elk, black bear and deer here in the Pacific Northwest is a certainty!

So - how out of place and ridiculous is it to use something like a .375 H&H now and again?

Normally I use a .25-06 or a 7mm Rem mag or my old beater .30-06 rifle, and have to admit, they've never come up short. Is it completely silly to get a "big" rifle for this?

Is it silly? Nope! I live/hunt in WV and recently aquired a 9.3x62mm I'm gonna hunt with a bit. Why? Just because. Well,because I'm a rifle looney.

IMO it would be silly not to.
Life is short. Go for it.

I carried my 375 H&H last year deer hunting. I wanted to get some experiance with it and since they kill Dik Dik's with them in Africa on occasion I figured a deer hunt with one wouldn't be inappropriate.

Use what you want, as soon as you can manage it! Life is too short to worry about caliber.
Here in France where i live and hunt, some of us are using 375H&H, 375Ruger, 416REM, 458Winch for wild boars and stags. I have my original M71 converted in 50 Alaskan, it's near finished (blueing), will use it in driven hunt with 500 and 600grs lead slugs. Never mind what other think or say, enjoy till you can!

Dom

Life's too short to worry about what the guys at the gunstore will say; use what you like and let other people worry about it.

I'm a beginner hunter and use a 375. I used the 375 h&h to take my first deer and it was great. You will catch some crap from other hunter's but who cares. I was told that I'd probably blow the deer to pieces, but when I shot my deer it created a similar wound channel to a 35 remington and the deer ran about 50 yards with a heart shot. Once my hunting party saw how little meat damage there was, they stopped giving me crap. and once they fired my rifle and found out the recoil isn't so bad, they seemed more interested in the caliber. I've shot 30-06 that felt like they kicked worse than the 375.
Realistically I may never get to africa or hunt a grizzly, but I still love the caliber. I'd say go for it if you have a facination.
You will notice the recoil at first, but it soon becomes normal recoil after a few range sessions.
Plus you will be able to hunt anything with that caliber. I even thought about coyote hunting with mine.

This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

Plus it's a heck of a yote rig!

Dober

folks that put down the calibers like the 375 H&H for deer and elk, normally do so out of a lack of knowledge in that they usually make a stupid comment like "Good Gawd, yer gonna blow'em in half feller,thats why I use a 243"....Fact is the big bores don't do near the meat blood shot damage as those fast light bullets that bloodshoot a deer from stem to stern...The 375 and its kin, in fact, cut a big caliber to cookie size hole in them and let all the blood out in a hurry, stroke occurs, and you have a dead deer that you can eat right up to the bullet hole as Elmer used to say..I use the softer 300 gr. bullets on deer and elk for this very reason and also because I can take any shot offered and I know that 300 gr. bullet is going to go in one side and out the other on an elk or deer and it will put them down, and it will leave a nice blood trail if they run a ways, and they do sometimes with any caliber...All Africans that live on wild game know and practice this at times. I believe all the camp meat shot in our Tanzania camp is shot with big bores and in many cases with solids. that has been my job traditionally.

You just got a whole lot smarter, that's all, tell'em to kiss ole spot and your good to go, in fact better than ever!

This is not to say that the 30-06 and its ilk are not good usuable calibers, they definately are, it is just that there is more than one way to skin a cat and if you can take the recoil and shoot them accurately you got the best of the deal...

About 1950's? My old grandaddy got to thinking he needed more than just his old 1903 for long shots on mule deer in the Bloody Basin of Arizona. Went and bought himself a brand new M-70 in .300 H&H. One hunt with that rifle and it was retired and went to the attic where is grandson resurrected it in the 1966. Grandad told me it was the worst meat damaging rifle he ever hunted with. I don't know if that is the case, as all the years I've had that rifle I never used it for any game hunting.

It is most common for folks that hunt our islands here in Alaska to shoot Blacktail deer with big bores, I have yet to shoot a black tail with a .375H&H that has wasted any edible meat. It is the main go to rifle caliber, more than any other. Yep I like to carry small rifles around, small calibers are more fun. For piece of mind and confidence, the .375H&H is vary hard to beat.

There just is never a question when you give the .375H&H the proper line-up on the vitals of any member of the deer family, you have just made meat.

Shot my last four whitetails and two game birds with .375HH and I have no intention to use any other caliber, unless I use my handgun.

They all died right there, no bloodshot meat at all.

All four whitetails and two game birds at one time, amazing. It the same reason I carry a 9.3x62 for Michigan deer.

Load it down and think of it as a 38/55 on steriods. Having fun is the point.

In my experience the people who crow the most about "too much gun" or "overkill" are the people who have never used such cartidges!

There are so many wonderful cartridges out there, that life would be very boring if we limited ourselves to a .22 and 30-06, variety is the spice of life!

I find the medium-big bore rifles to be flat out fun to own and shoot, those big heavy bullets put animals down RIGHT NOW.

The only person whose opinion matters when purchasing a rifle is your own.

GuyM, if anyone says anything tell them that you know a guy that

hunts coyote with a .458 Lott with 350's @ 2300 fps. That would

be me, my Ruger 77 will shoot 1.5" 3 shot 100 yard groups from a

sitting position with 24" Harris bipod. I love that rifle, and

shoot it alot. The big bores are fun to shoot, very accurate

and believe it or not I have never lost a yote yet! Lifes too

short,get the 375 and don't look back, it will wind up being

one of your favorite rifles!

Guy,
I would say go for it, the 375 is a fun caliber.

If you feel like you are overgunned, don't worry, I used to shoot chucks and rabbits with mine(and with my 416 too, but that is another story)

The first two deer I ever saw shot were shot with a 270 Winchester with 130 powerpoints and a 338 Winchester magnum with a 225gr TBBC.

The 270 shot deer looked like blood pudding on the inside, classic behind the shoulder shot presentation. Kind of disgusting actually, the bullet disintegrated.

The 338 shot deer, taken right on the shoulder, had a perfect .40" hole drilled through and through. No bloodshot at all.

Neither deer went more than 20 yards after being shot.

Is the 338 better for deer? Absolutely not.

Do I use a 338 on deer? You bet

I'm just thinkin that 375 H&H is a little light ...




Chuck

As a boar/roe deer/fox/cat 375 HH hunter I would say, come and be ridiculous with the legendary calibers loonies

I've used my 375 a bit and quite a lot in Africa a year and a half ago. If I was limited to one rifle for all of NA I'd give serious consideration to a 375 H&H under 9 lbs. and if Africa was included it would be a no-brainer. With the right loads if is suitable for from deer to brown bear without being a poor choice on either end of the spectrum.

I like the Swift 250g A-Frames at 2800 fps out of my 375 H&H for deer and elk. Light recoil, flat shooting, great terminal performance.


Chuck

Something as good as the 375H&H deserves to be used everywhere,and I believe that everyone who is serious about rifles and hunting should have one,whether they think they need it or not.The guy who knows how to shoot it,and uses it for all his hunting is, IMHO a pretty smart hombre.

I totally agree with that Bob!

Dober

Aaah! Stop it, you two!

I've carried a 375 on a hog hunt; never fired it.

I took my 338 Win. for speedgoats and mulies. It worked very well. Something nice about the ability to put a 250 gr. from front shoulder out the back hip..

I am debating on wielding my 338 or a 400 Whelen here in Oct.. for NM elk. And I have a 416 and 375 that beg to be bloodied...

Welcome to the lunacy.....

You can load the .375H&H down to .375Win velocities, and on up to full-power, and almost everything will shoot better than most hunters can. Hard to not like that flexibility.

It's a good one,Mark. I have never done it,but can't imagine that you could not hang a good 6X on one with dots,and stretch it to 600;train wreck when it lands

Jeff, it'll make you quit the 338...

I would be the wrong guy to ask that question because I use the .375 for everything. I heard Ray talk about using a 270 gr bullet over 70 gr of IMR 4064. I tried the Speer BTSP loaded as such and it flat puts the smack down on deer & antelope. Maybe this year I can report on how it does on elk.

I used this load in season 2007 and took a muley buck @ over 350 yards with it. I have been known to use this load on prairie dogs. On big game it doesn't destroy as much meat as my .300 did. Big ol' heavy bullet just plows it's way right through.

So in answer to your question. Aint a thing in the world out of place or ridiculous about it.

Dead is dead. Who am I to quiible with how the creature ended up there?

If I was primarily hunting deer and blackies with mine (sako 85 kodiak in 375 H&H) I would go with 235 grains barnes x bullets. Everything else except Brown bear get a 270 grain pill (always x bullets)

Dunno how this happened.

My buddy has shot a lot of elk with his 458 Wnnie and the Hornady 350 RN bullet. Elk hate that gun.

I'll be hunting elk, deer and black bear this year with my 500 Jeffery lol ...



Chuck

I'll be hunting elk, deer and black bear this year with my 500 Jeffery ...



Chuck

I have used a 375 H&H from Alaska to Texas to Pennsylvania with a few stops in between. It has taken Whitetail, Sitka Blacktail, Mulies, Moose, Caribou, Black Bear, Brown Bear, Mt. Goat, Texas Boar (they are a mix), Rattle Snake, Coyotes, Wolf and Snowshoe Hare. To boot it all was done with one load consisting of 270gr Hornaday/RL15. I have used Barnes X, Swift A-Frames, Nosler Partitions and all the rest. but the truth is that the old 375 has been taking game from the size of Dik Dik to Cape Buffalo cleanly and effectivly with factory loads for over 100 years. That in itself is the real beauty of the 375 H&H!

You should have seen the looks on the boys in Texas when I showed up with my 375 for a Deer hunt.
Model 70 in 375 H&H $700
1.75-6 Scope $450
QD rings and bases $75
Ammo $30
Look on their faces; Priceless

I am deciding between a 9.3 x 62 and a 375 h&h for my next rifle. My last hunt was to Africa and everything shot was done so with a 338 win mag. Bullets zipped right through everything and there was minimal meat loss even on Springbok and mountain reedbuck. I have to agree that the 375 will not spoil any more meat than the 338. Same speed with 270 gr 375 AS A 225 GR 338 so trajectory is a mute point. Years ago I shot a friend's CZ in 375 and it was pleasant to shoot, although that was when compared to his 458 and 416 Rigby in the same configuration. To me it did not appear any more recoil than my Ruger m77 in 338.

Mtgoat
Appreciate the humour. I used to shoot a 45/70 contender at sillouette shoots and quite a few eyebrows were raised. It is hard not to smile.

Randy

Been thinking that also. My .458 is a little heavy, so I am thinking about a .416 Rigby.

I was thinking of how useful the .375 has been for me over the years....have used it for everything....varmints to moose....and for a fleeting moment....I was going to sell it.....BUT....NOOOOO.
I do not do much big game hunting anymore....but why would I want
to let go of a pre-64 Mod 70 that was owned by my grand dad? NOT.

GuyM,
Actually the 375 H&H Magnum is considered a medium bore if you read a book about African rifles. For really dangerous game solids were used by the hunters.
With that said I shot three whitetails last year with mine last season.
We were party hunting and noone else was seeing anything.
I used a Sierra flatnose 200 gr with IMR 4759 for 2200 fps.
This is a powderpuff load but it knocked all three deer down right now!
I bought it for my oldest son who was planning on going bear hunting with me but neither one of us drew a tag last year.
I think it would make a fun black bear rifle because I doubt they will make it into the swamp after being hit with that load.
I would use it on moose if I ever draw a tag for that.
What is a few thousandths of an inch between friends?
whelennut
Did I mention how light the recoil is with this load? A little girl could shoot it.

That's kind of what I'm thinking - could be a lot of fun to have a .375 in a rifle I really enjoy - even though I'll likely never hunt Cape Buff... Or if I do, it will likely be a one-time deal.

On the other hand, I can hunt mule deer, black bear and elk every year... Would think a decent 260/270 grain load would do very nicely for those... Having strong thoughts about a Ruger Number One. Have had several, only one right now in 7mm Rem mag and it's not deficient in any way - but I'd kind of like to play with bigger bullets now and again... Just might have to look into this a bit more...

Thanks for all the info guys!

waaayyy out of line....the .375 will kill'em tooo dead

have at it!
i use a 338 wm for ALL my hunting here in the states...
you will be pleasently surprised at the results the mid-bores give

you will get some 'hairy eye balls' from some...but usually there the tunnel vision type.
obviosly such power is not 'needed' per se, but with some thought given to load selection, you will enjoy that 'death wand'...lol

the only drawback on the .375 is recoil. Lot of once a year hunters and shooters are better of with a 250 Savage, no doubt about that..

If I'm going deer or elk hunting all I can tell you is give me a rifle, any rifle, I'll sight it in and go, if its a too light caliber then I have to allow for that and make the adjustment. If its a punkin roller then I have to hunt in the thick stuff or be sneakier than normal, If its a .375, 416, 9.3, all I gotta do is hit'em...Thats a pretty simple choice to make if one is concerned about it.

If I didn't like deer meat then I would use a high velocity caliber like a 22-250 or 220 Swift, they don't leave much in the way of clean meat, in some cases you won't get any meat as it will run over the next 3 ridges never to be seen again. If you use a 300 RUM with too light bullets then your lucky to get the backstraps, but he won't go far I assue you..

Last year I took my CZ in 9.3X62 deer hunting, got some funny looks from the family. Elephant rifle for deer? It sure did the job, like Thor's hammer and no shot up meat either. Only thing that was a slight negative was the weight, got a bit heay after four days. The Norma 232's worked just fine. The 243 that I gave my nephew tore up alot more meat then the "elephant rifle" Although all deer were just as dead..

I'm taking my 500 Jeffrey elk and deer hunting this fall. 570g TSX or 535g Woodleigh for deer, decisions decisions ...



Chuck

I will be doing all my hunting in the near future with my CZ9.3X62 because I shoot it better than any other rifle I currently own. Secondarily, I will never get to Africa, but It is fun to hunt with a cartridge that has an African heritage.

I have shot a lot of deer and plainsgame with the 9.3x62 and its a superlative caliber for the light animals and it works fine on Buffalo, Lion, even elephant with solids..It is a nice all around caliber, may not be the best choice on either end, but it works, not many calibers can make that claim.

Okay, couldn't resist any longer, my new bear & elk rifle:


Shown with my scoped 7mm Rem mag. Not sure why I need any other hunting rifles anymore, except of course my coyote & varmint rifle:


It's of course my fault, but you all sure didn't try to talk me out of it...

VERY NICE,GM! Might as well stick my $.02 in:

did you know that up to WWII the 9.3x62 was THE all-purpose rifle in Africa according to historic figures (John Taylor, et al.) for most folks (it's DG companion was the 404J and was issued by game departments right to the 70s. Only after Allied forces bombed the Mauserwerke factory did the 375 H&H take over and 10 years later the 458 WM was intro'd as a heavy.

these cartridges were designed for general usage against all classes of game under general hunting conditions (what most of us do). using the right combo of bullets, powder and velocity they appear to do now what they were designed to do then; no muss, no fuss.

we've got my father in law converted to the 9.3 in NM and trying to convince the brother in law to use it on elk, but he seems to reallllllly not enjoy recoil above 150 grain/30 06 so it looks iffy. personally, i like the recoil of my 375 better than that of the 30 06 but then again i've had my bell rung a few times over the years... who knows. I don't think they're out of place at all, not after watching friends shoot Maine whitetails with hot loaded 270s/3006s/7mm Mausers and seeing what it does to entire front shoulders, etc.

Use them all I say. From 22 LR to 460 on prairie dogs.

Nothing wrong with a 458 Mag on deer. Unless of course you're wealthy enough to "Arica" every month or 2.....

I have a buddy from Montanna who used a .340 Weatherby Magnum on a prairie dog hunt. We were trying to see who could launch one the highest. He placed well with the 250 gr Partitions!
whelennut

I have killed rabits with a .375 H&H and feral goats with a .460 Weatherby. Practice is practice.

JW

PS: The .340 Weatherby is a wonderful cartridge for any game, prairie dog or something 2,000 pounds larger.

I have used a 375 H&H for deer on a number of occasions just because. But the 375 H&H is my primary elk rifle and hiking/bear protection rifle here in Alaska; however, if I am hunting bear I bring my 416 Rem. Lou

416 Taylor is a great varmit cartridge, save the 375 H&H for the small stuff. As time passes, I realize all those med/big bore rifles need a purpose in the hunting fields. Not enough big game trips to use them all for their dangerous game functions. Might try 38/55 for whitetail deer this year!

Thinkin about a .405 WCF barrel for my Encore for deer and black bear... Why?

Why Not... Fun and a little out of the ordinary. Plenty powerful!

There's no such thing as too much gun...

I would be carefull with Speer 235gr bullets out of it. I bloodshot a whitetail from the base of the skull all the way to the hindquartes with one of those once. It was UGLY! It actually tore the meat between several ribs on both sides. Too much speed for this bullet at 75yards. Up side is you don't have to have really good tracking skills once you hit em...

375 HH works very good on mid size game. With a proper aim, there is no damage to the meat:







Have some picture of a fox somewhere.

It works fine and it's a lot of fun but it's a bit heavy combo for a go to gun.

aaaaah I found one:

After reading how the .375 H&H is an ideal big bore for the grand stuff I had to have one. Even a M70 was not enough and I had a .375 Improved built. I loaded up a hollow point cast bullet for whitetails and bagged one.

Along the way it was obvious that the .375 rifles were just too heavy to carry all over those hills. I had a .358 Win. 99 Featherweight and that satisfied the medium bore idea and was a handy rifle to carry as well. Sometimes I carry a rifle day after day and do not get a shot.

IMO you just nailed THE problem in that case ... I just re-equipped my light rifle with stalking and driven hunt optics because I want to retrieve some comfort. A 10 pounds rifle is not hell, and in 375 it's a pleasure to shoot, but it's not a daily pleasure either.

It still works ... Ain't that a varmint / taxidermy friendly rig ?

Wanna borrow my Sharps?? I hear they charge when wounded!!! GORGEOUS FOX btw!!!

If he charged when wounded, that means you already fired your single shot ... And it won't let you time enough to reload ... No way, too dangerous ... I can have 4 rounds ready to slay the predator with my Winchester

When guiding customers during fox & cat expansive safaris, as a white hunter, I have to bear the right equipment in order to ensure the safety of my customers, but remember that when a charge occurs it is always some man's fault

And yes that's a nice fox, we have the best trophies in Belgium, here. That one is certainly an SCI gold medal

I keep hearing the .375s are too heavy to pack around all day here in the good ole USA, but it seems to me everyone in Africa packs them around all day in 100 degree plus heat. I pack a double or a 416 that weighs 11 pounds all day when hunting Africa, and have for years..My 300 H&H with scope goes 10 lbs. and its my go to rifle for a lot of hunts. I still like a barrel heavy enough to settle down on off hand shots after a short run and I like a 26" tube for the same reason, you can shoot them better than those featherweight guns.

Is this an indication of what the American hunter has become? Just maybe we have had the good life too long and were a bit on the soft side!

I have a Mauser with a fiberglass stock, I have to agree with what Ray says on this one. You pull the trigger on this lite weight .375 and you just don't forget the recoil. I would not re-stock this rifle as it is my loaner.

I will never forget the first time I shot this rifle, it was like getting hit by a sledge hammer. Thank goodness I have a lot of other .375's to shoot. I don't think you would much care for a lite weight .375 H&H. 10 to 11 pounds when you care these rifles feels like another rifle. After all you are not carrying the around on a high altitude sheep hunt. But in my youth I carried around rifles that weighted the same and never gave it much thought.


As I've said for years, "it seems now a days, everyone wants a lite weight rifle, until they get ready to take the shot".

When you want lite as you huff and puff up the mountain, you sure as heck want a rifle with some weight to steady the shot.

I have no doubt that my new 375 H&H will kill everything I am going to aim it at - and quickly too. I surmise that my .22 CHeetah will produce more bloodshot meat (shooting it's 53 grain pill at 4285 fps) will probably ruin more meat than my 375 H&H ever will.

I know that my 375 H&H recoils more - but still - I still shoot it well - very well, in fact.

If I am shooting a groundhog, a grouse or just a Whitetail Deer with my 375 H&H and some choose to say that is "over-kill" - so be it.

I like the fact that I'm shooting game with an all-time "classic" cartidge.

And - if I am ever in a position to be lucky enough to shoot a big Brown or Grizzly bear, a Lion or a Cape Buffalo with a rifle that I'm very familiar with - all the better. It goes without saying that I'll be very familiar with my rifle. Until then, I'm simply shooting a classic cartridge - one that is responsible for untold number of tales of individual shooting prowess on big game - and a great many adventures by many famous people.

The one thing I'm sure of is - if I ever NEED to use my 375 H&H's power - I'm going to be damn familiar with it!

I don't care what any one else thinks - in my mind - I have a plan!

In a pinch - familiarity is my friend.

And - someday - I just might make it to Africa.

Sounds like we have the same plan.

The .375 HH world conspiracy ...

"And - if I am ever in a position to be lucky enough to shoot a big Brown or Grizzly bear, a Lion or a Cape Buffalo with a rifle that I'm very familiar with - all the better. It goes without saying that I'll be very familiar with my rifle."

BC Brian - I like that. It's one of the things I thought of when debating about carrying my new-to-me .375 on an upcoming black bear hunt. I figure if I hunt enough with it; black bear, elk and maybe even mule deer, I'll get very familiar with it - and be all the better prepared for that "someday" hunt for grizz or cape buffalo or something...

Regards, Guy

the 375 H&H is a great cartridge.
I like to hunt and I like the the 375 H&H.
You do not need a heavy rifle to enjoy the benefits of this cartridge. Sure it will set you back when you squeeze the trigger but that is part of the deal.It is not as bad as some 300s I have owned.
Mine is a 26" barrel Encore and under 8# all up.
The gun shoots 260 gr. NPs like a house on fire. Reloads easy and is well balanced. What else could I want....
well I got a new 340 weatherby that is kinda cool

I used to think the way some some do about using them big powerful cartridges on deer sized game. I gave that thinking up when a friend and I were out hunting deer and I was using my 338 win mag and he was using a 243 win. To both our surprise 2 bucks came out at the same time. I shot mine, dropped right there, very little meat damage at all, I was using 200grn balistic tips, deer dropped right where it stood, didn't take a step. We had to track my buddies and when found the deer was still alive, he put another into it. I was sold on the bigger guns, now I use a 375 H&H and have for a couple years now. Why? because I can and have always loved the caliber and just wanted one. I have pretty much the same results as I did with the 338 and the rifle I'm using is about the same weight as my 338 I was using, not much more recoil either if not alittle less. The 375H&H will be goto gun for years to come, love it, the next best thing since sliced bread.

One more 375 overkilled sub white tail sized critter ...



Ok ... I admit ... heart and lungs were probably too much destroyed for cooking purpose

Just as a show of support I've gone out and purchased a Husqvarna M98 chambered to 9.3x57 which I intend to have recut to x62 and then take into the deer woods.

You've got a witness for certain .

Ray, I don't know how you carry those heavy rifles walking half-way upside down on those Idaho slopes; I do see how you can do it in much of Africa which is comparatively flat. I am a light rifle fan and while I'd seriously consider the H&H for NA game, I'd limit the weight to 8.5 lbs. all up which is just what mine is because it would have to be a mountain rifle too. And no, after years of shooting a .340 Wby, also at 8.5 lbs, I don't find the H&H at all rude at that weight.

If my Ruger #1 458 Lott does not sell I will use the 350 TSX at 2800 fps for elk this year.

there are valid reasons to use large caliber weapons when hunting deer.
some involve terrain, folliage and closeness to property lines.
we had a fellow at camp that , when he turned 70 moved from shooting a 243 to shooting a 270 weatherby because he said he didnt have the energy to trail them thru the thick stuff anymore.

i shoot a 376 steyr on one property I hunt because there are clubs on two seperate sides of the land and in SC a hunter has no legal right to puruse game after its been shot and travels onto another piece of property.

Already posted in the euro forum but those are new evidences of the 375 HH performance on mid size game:





(Roe deer yearling: about 22 pounds cleaned weight - using 300 grains swift A Frame)



(roe buck and roe doe: about 40 and 24 pounds cleaned weight, 300 grains SAF again)



(Red deer hind (second on the picture): about 150 pounds cleaned weight, 300 grains SAF again)

Goodnews,
Those slopes don't bother me cuz I have one leg worn off shorter than the other, only problem is I can only sidehill those slopes in one direction..I use the heavy guns for balance!

LaCrosse,
The 9.3x62 was a poor mans .375 in Africa, thus its popularity, In those days a gun was a tool, it fed the family and saved the cows. It was not a propriatary cartridge and came in the neat little mausers. It worked then and it works today..

You some kind of a "Dahut" Alpine goat ?