Since there is presently a nice 460 Weatherby in the classifieds and since that cartridge isn't mentioned much I thought I'd ask y'all where you think that fits in. It's certainly powerful enough but it's not mentioned much.

Allegedly it has a bad reputation in Africa and there certainly isn't anything anywhere else that needs it.

Supposedly, the velocity is too high so it doesn't get adequate penetration; I doubt that should really be a problem with a premium solid or some type of other all copper bullet. Also, the recoil is such that not many can handle it without flinching; I think this is a much more realistic problem with the cartridge.

Another problem is the price of ammunition and brass; quite expensive. Of course, most people wouldn't shoot it that much so perhaps the cost of ammunition isn't that important.

I've always thought a 378 or 460 Weatherby would be nice to have and shoot. Bad reputation or not, I would also take it to Africa or maybe just use it to shoot varmints around the farm.

Too much of a good thing. Pricey rifles and pricey ammo. Lots of recoil and too big and clunky a rifle.

Well, I just bought a 460 for myself so it fits in quite nicely beside my 416 and 404. I think its easy to load down so the too powerfull thing might be a bit over rated. I was expecting to get a whip barreled light weight hard kicking tooth remover. The bbl is bigger than my Rigby, the balance is excelent and makes it feel lighter. The kick was just a bit more than my Rigby and not unmanagable at all. Not something I will hunker down on the bench and one hand 40 rounds off with. But once sighted in ten to twelve shots will be fun every so often just to keep in touch with the gun. First time out with the gun I let three others shoot it for their first with a 460. All smiles and thats not so bad comments. I wish I had more ammo as I only loaded 10 to try out. Oh yeah and its the old one with no brake, Just porting. If the one you are looking at has a brake it will be no problem to shoot.

It has a bad rap only in that recoil is horrible...

I have seen a lot of Buff shot with it and its a killing sob for sure, it hammers'um to the ground..The PHs that have observed its use on elephant tell me the bullets all head for Dar es Salaam, after punching a hole through and elephant...:)

I have shot it a bit, but its slow getting it out of the trees for a second shot! Actually it just has more recoil than I want to deal with, even with a brake...

If one can handle the recoil then use monolithic or solid flat nose or cup point Northfork bullets and you could not be better armed for DG...

Thanks. It's good to hear about it from people who have experience.

It isn't so much that the recoil was horrific as it was poor stock design that directed that recoil back at you...after Roy changed the stock angles and made it a little heavier it worked out OK...It still kicked the bejeeses out of you but you could fire more rounds so proficiency would improve...

Massive recoil, well what about the .500 or .577 NE cartridges made some 50+ years before and around the same ft/lbs but of course, usually found in a double configuration, weighing around 14+ lbs and in a properly fitted stock...the most I can get out of our .500 is 7 rounds before I have to pack it in and be carried back, fed copious amounts of liquor and given multiple ASA tablets...

These and all the other great calibers were called stopping rifles for that purpose alone...Most of the hunters used smaller calibers (if a .400 Jeffery is considered small) for herd thinning and ivory collecting and the "thumper" was there to put paid to that charge of the enraged female...

The penetration problem was a bullet flaw not a cartridge flaw (Kynoch had the same problem after WW2 with their stuff and why the .458 Win Mag came into popularity) once some better bullets were designed for it those complaints died away, not entirely, but for the most part...

Of all the calibers making it to safari, unfortunately the .460 is low down on the list...Making it some 400 to 450 fps slower increases both its accuracy and shootability with lessened recoil, so if you can handload or have some one do it for you then that classified gun might make a good shooter...

Out of curiousity, what has it got over .505 Gibbs and .500 Jeffery?

Cheaper brass cheaper guns cheaper bullets. I can walk into three out of four stores in the next major town over and buy brass for the big 460. I doubt I can get 505 or 500J. I have had 404 on order for 3 months.

That's an awful lot of power for such a small bullet, and quite frankly I don't think it kills any better than the .458 Lott or similar cartridges.

For that much power and recoil, I'd much rather have a .50, and send 570 or 600 grain bullets downrange.

The 458 Lott is a very good cartridge. I find it interesting how the 450 Dakota and 450 Rigby are held high as good cartridges too but the 460 is too much and you should have a 50 if you want that much power. The 460 is the same when reloading as the two 450's and I load my 460 as I would a 450 Rigby. Its easy on brass. Still 2450fps though. I think the Weatherby is affordable and get an unfair rap. One day I will have a 50 of some kind but its a different gun than my 460. I guess it depends what you want it for.

I think the cartridge unjustly has a bad reputation. There are several primary criticisms:

1) Many dislike the Weatherby MarkV as a DG rifle.
2) Bullet performance with conventional designs was problematic.
3) There is no real increase in killing power when you go from 2350 fps to 2650 fps. There's a real increase in recoil.
4) It's hard to fire a quick second shot.

My thoughts are:
1) The nicer MkV rifles are very pretty, but I largely agree.
2) That was then, this is now. With the Swift and Barnes bullets, these concerns are past issues.
3) I largely agree
4) A well designed rifle that's mag-na-ported solves this problem.

Add that fact that some love to bash Weatherbys as "uncool" and you have the issue in a nutshell. I think issue #3 is valid, but you can always download, if you wish. On the other hand, you can never upload, so having the option is very nice.

I'm not an expert, but I play one on TV.

Well put, once you get the action mounted in a "proper" stock it changes matters immensely...

I've seen two that were great to shoot, one built by Kenny Jarret using his pro hunter stock(I believe) and the other by some guy out of Ferlach, Austria...both had brakes and both were great to shoot--of course you noticed the recoil but you weren't scared to fire it a second or third time...

Drop the velocity and in those guns it would be a pussycat...

The .500 Jeffrey or the .505 Gibbs don't have anybody making them except custom shops and CZ (In one model only and in very limited supply)...from what I've read the Gibbs is still a viable (resurrected) caliber like the .416 and especially the .450 Rigby but the Jeffery is really outdated but its case can make some lovely calibers...

The Gibbs is 525 gr, 2,300 fps, 6,180 ft/lbs where the Jeffery was 535 gr, 2,400 fps, 6,800 ft/lbs...both bloody excessive!

The Jeffery actually had some things going for it primarily a shorter case and a rebated rim for easier loading in bolt actions but it was designed as the 12.7x70mm Schuler first and is still somewhat popular in that configuration in Europe...

After shooting the big guns with both straight stocks and the weatherby comb I prefer the weatherby. My 460 doesn't have the drop the other MK V's have but it looks the same at a glance. I won't tell anyone its a DG gun. No sights on the bbl and 26" long. My DG is my Ruger RSM. That gun is set up for DG. I wouldn't trade either of them though and I think I prefer shooting the 460 over the 416. They are just different guns. My 460 is an extreme moose killer and big target gun. Good for opening peoples eyes to how big guns aren't that bad to shoot. And pretty to boot.

I just got my 460wby mag today with 6 boxes of ammo. As with many of you, this has been a dream rifle for me since childhood. It has very little need for North America. I have been to South Africa and will return to Africa next year. I can hardly wait to try it out. I also recently bought Remington 375 Ultra Mag. The rum does not have a muzzle brake and is a rifle that weighs under 8 pounds. I will let everyone know this weekend when I take them both to the range. I have a custom 458 winchester mag. this gun is not bad to shoot at all. My 338 rem ultra mag with 250 grain handloads is a monster to shoot. I had a brake installed due to uncontrollable muzzle jump. Brake made gun managable. Problem is it has sporter weight barrel and gun weighs less than 8 pounds.

You could wrap the 460 in two tons of cotton candy covered with the biggest down quilt and it would still kick the living bejesus out of you..What planet do you guys live on?

It also kills accordingly, probably better than any caliber that I have witnessed including the fabled 577 N.E. and I have witnessed them all..That big 500 gr. bullet at that high velocity definatly makes a big bull squat and pee, and shake like a dog pooping peach seeds..I find it much more impressive than the Lott or any other caliber..

My old and dear friend George Hoffman told me it simply mashed'um. He killed a wounded elephant with one shot at over 300 yards with a shoulder shot on one ocasion.

It thinks it is a .30/06 and shoots about the same trajectory.

I have some experience with this cartridge. The advantage it offers is that you can reload it to suit your own recoil tolerance. Because the rifle is designed with a proper 10.5 - 11.5 pound weight, depending on the stock, it dampens the recoil and balances better than the lighter .458's on the market.

The .460 Weatherby is the only rifle that often commands the same price used as a new one.

My .460 is a rifle that will shut down the biggest windbag on the range as it is very ho hum, in being able to shoot .5 MOA or less, for 3 shots with just about any bullet and I have shot 5 shot groups way under MOA so often, that it is the keeper of the keepers in my safe.

I sent Barnes a 5 shot group measuring .677" with my submission for the .460 in the latest Barnes manual but did not publish it.

The talk about penetration issues comes from experts who have never see one.

Back in the 90's I attended a writers hunt with about 40 industry people from around the world. I had my .460 with me as I hunted buffalo while here, but the surprise I got, was that not one person I met had ever held a .460 in their hands.

Some of my better loads are below;

.460 Weatherby Magnum Page 1.

Bullet Load Powder O. A. L. Velocity Energy Comments

300gn Hornady HP 100gn IMR 3031 2738 4995
106gn IMR 3031 2888 5557 Great on Pigs

350gn Speer FP 90gn AR 2206 2380 4403 Bullet better suited to .458 Win
100gn AR 2206 2629 5373
100gn AR 2208 2515 4917
105gn AR 2208 2685 5604
100gn IMR 4064 2525 4956
105gn IMR 4064 2685 5604
108.5gn IMR 4064 2730 5794
112gn IMR 4064 2860 6359 Still Mild

400gn Speer FP 40gn Blue Dot 1720 2628 Fed 215 Primer
57gn 2400 2080 3844 Fed 215 Primer
58gn 2400 2120 3993 Fed 215 Primer
100gn IMR 4064 2500 5553
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719

400gn Barnes X 110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719 Easy shooting big game load
110gn VARGET 2750 6719 6 feet penetration on big game.
116gn IMR 4064 2900 7472
116gn AR 2208 2860 7267

400gn Woodleigh 110gn VARGET 2737 6655 Bullet better suited to .458 Win.
110gn IMR 4064 2750 6719
116gn IMR 4064 2900 7472

450gn Barnes TSX 110gn IMR 4350 2408 5795
115gn IMR 4350 2527 6382
117gn IMR 4350 2575 6627
119gn IMR 4350 2627 6897 Compressed load

500gn Barnes TSX 110gn IMR 4350 2433 6574
112gn IMR 4350 2483 6847 .456" Great load
115gn IMR 4350 2543 7182 Very heavily compressed

500gn Hornady RN 115gn IMR 4350 2500 6941 .5 MOA Max velocity for this bullet
120gn IMR 4350 2600 7507
122gn IMR 4350 2642 7752 Bullet not strong enough
104gn Rel 15 2398
108.5gn Rel 15 2512 7008
85gn IMR 4064 2028 4567
87gn IMR 4064 2100 4897
104gn AR 2208 2400 6397
115gn WIN 760 2450 6666 Very accurate .5 MOA for 3 shots
94gn AR 2206 2300 5875
115gn AR 2209 2500 6941 .5 MOA
Bullet Load Powder O. A. L. Velocity Energy Comments

Hornady RN (Cont) 115gn Rel 19 2500 6941
115gn IMR 4831 2500 6941
75gn AR 2207 2000 4442

500gn Swift 122gn IMR 4350 2660 7858 Same POI as 500gn Hornady bullet
A - Frame 123gn IMR 4350 2678 7964

550gn Woodleigh 110gn IMR 4350 2356 6769
115gn IMR 4350 2382 6931
117gn IMR 4350 2471 7459 Warm Load
117gn WIN 760 2383 6939
120gn WIN 760 2393
122gn WIN 760 2460 Warm Load
117gn AR 2209 2439
119gn AR 2209 2457
119gn IMR 4831 2464
121gn IMR 4831 2509 7690 Buffalo Load - accurate
121gn AR 2213 2422
123gn AR 2213 2459
115gn WMR 2138
118gn WMR 2162
120gn WMR 2179
122gn WMR 2243 6146

600gn Barnes RN 120gn AR 2213 2346
122gn AR 2213 2389
118gn IMR 4831 2392
120gn IMR 4831 2453 8019 Warm Load
114gn IMR 4350 2418
116gn IMR 4350 2460 8064

Aussiegunwriter,
Those are some very impressive figures and I have seen what a tough 500 gr. bullet will do to a buffalo at 2650 FPS and its something to behold...

I have seen Buffalo killed with 500s and 577s and was not nearly as impressed..That added velocity with proper bullets has the same effect on buffalo as the 300 RUM for instance has on deer over the 30-06.

I saw this again as I witnessed Saeed Al McTourn shoot probably 40 or more Buffalo with his 375/404 and monolithic bullets,all that added velocity did come into play and that 375 bullet at over 2900 FPS killed like the hammer of Thor on everything he shot with it..

I learned a lesson, watching these high velocity big bores at work, and that was there sure is more than one way to skin a cat.

GREAT cartridge. It's what all the "other" 45s shoot for. It did have growing pains initially like all Weatherby calibers because they were way ahead of bullet technology. With today's super-premiums, it's pretty devastating. Friend of mine used it on buffalo and it was impressive. With the proper solid, it's the "Penetration King". jorge

Actually, these claims originated in Mike LaGrange's book "Ballistics in Perspective". Not only does he make this assertion, he backs it up with empirical testing and photographs of the tests. As he is a legitimate expert, having shot over 6000 elephants as a control officer in Zim, and has well documented his claims, I wouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss his statement.

I have a copy of the second edition published in 1990. On page 16, he writes:
"Penetration tests, using 20mm block-board sections set one behind the other in a frame, revealed that at 15 meters the .460 Short A-Square using a shortened .460 Weatherby case at muzzle velocity 2,400 ft/sec, penetrated further than the .460 Weatherby, even though the bullets of both weapons were recovered undamaged."

The bullets used were 500 gr Hornady solids, and all survived testing intact.
.460 Wby 2700 fps 1185mm penetration
.460 Wby 2700 fps 1220mm penetration
.460 Wby 2700 fps 1220mm penetration
.460 A-2 2400 fps 1240mm penetration
.460 A-2 2400 fps 1245mm penetration

He continues:
"The reason for this is not fully understood; however, it is possible that at a distance of 15 meters the bullet from the .460 Weatherby, though with increased velocity, on impact had not stabilized. Consequently, some of the velocity was taken up by bullet 'yaw' through the blocks. The test indicated that there was no advantage from increased velocity. Possibly at greater distances, the bullet from the .460 Weatherby, having then stabilized, would out perform the .460 Short, provided of course it remained intact."

There's nothing magical about his testing from 20 years ago and the bullet design he used isn't the most modern, in that flat-point solids are currently regarded as state of the art in terms of penetration and stability. Nevertheless, he's no bozo and he well-documented his testing procedure.

The test, in this case, was clearly focused on elephant, rather than buffalo, etc., so Ray's comments on buffalo, are obviously not invalidated by this test.

Disclaimer: I've never shot an elephant or a buffalo so I only know what I've read; I have made only one trip to Africa and that was a PG hunt. I don't own a .460 Wby, although I do own a .500 A2. I would buy a .460 without hesitation though.

Mike LaGrange never shot an elephant with one of todays monolithic solids as far as I know and these new flat nose solids from Bridger, GS Customs and Northfork make all the difference in the world..

Hell you can shoot an elephant up the keyster with the .460 Wby an one of these great bullets in the Selous,a and knock over two street stands in Dar es Salaam and stack up 10 street people in Harare and two more in Cape Town, as the bullet whizes off over the Indian ocean looking for shark or two, now that is penetration..

That is BECAUSE bullets back then were not up to velocities achieved by the 460 if you read my first post and others here. That book is pretty dated. With today's premiums, there's just not anything out there that will beat a 460 in penetration. At least in my opinion anyway. jorge

The .460 Weatherby is a killing sob. I'd like one more round magazine capacity, but maybe that's just me.

I've toyed with the idea of converting an M17 to 460Wby or 378Wby. Regarding the 460Wby, my only concern is that in my experience recoil increases exponentially once 2200fps is passed. That leads to the need for either a muzzle break or additional weight ... neither of which is desired in a rifle built to be carried lots. So ... if it's going to be that heavy and kick that hard, might as well neck up to 50cal!
Cheers...
Con

The only .460 I ever shot hammered me! Don't make the mistake of firing it prone with a muzzle break, as several bad things happen.

1.) When you fire a major big bore standing, your body will move with the recoil. When prone you get a straight line punch to the shoulder that is anchored in place. Ouch!

2.) The muzzle break kicks up a cloud of dust and obscures the target until it settles.

3.) The prone shooting position will sometime require the shooter to be so positioned that the ear muffs rest on the stock, and might lift the hearing protection off of the ear enough to limit their effectiveness. That makes it one LOUD sob too.

With solids or the TSX, I'm sure the .460 will whoop azz on anything and everything short of a Stegosaurus, but it's not for me.

Good Point:

This is why Weatherby offers an aftermarket drop magazine that holds 3. Additionally, because the Mark V action is a dreaded and detested push feed action, you can slip a 4th round in the chamber when firm negotiations must end in your favor.

I have tested this magazine with a wide range of bullet shapes and it has never failed to feed reliably. It has made me regret parting with some previous Mark V conversions in my past.

JW

You can learn something everyday if you hang around the right people.

Thanks for the information, AGW.

BTW Hatari, pal, the idea of shooting a .460 prone is an idea that never occurred to me. I feel your pain.

Let's just say I was a younger man then, and didn't think the scenario through. Shooting it at a seated bench was also not a stellar idea.

Hatari,
I also fired a 375 H&H from prone position amongst pine needles and the blast from the muzzle break obliterated my taget with dirt and flying pine needles, even a couple of pine cones, and when I stood up, stunned by the way, my two partners were in near hysterics, saying I looked like a porcupine...I was wearing one of those web type baseball caps on and the holes were full of pine needles. I have never shot a braked rifle from the prone position since that day.:)