what are the recipes for the most hard core 45/70 loads you guys are shootin in marlins? My buddy carries one in bear country but he's using wimpy factory stuff and i want him to be packin when i head up there. thanks

Elmer Keith's pet load was 53 gr. 3031 behind a cast or jacketed 405. That should work.

A stout charge of H322 under a 425 grain hardcast Beartooth "Piledriver Jr" will yield 1900+ fps with tremendous penetration!

Easier but more expensive to buy some seriously excellent custom loads from Garrett Cartridges: http://www.garrettcartridges.com

Those things have taken game all over North America and in Africa too. Very impressive track record. I think a box of Garrett cartridges would fill the bill as "Man Sized" loads!

Man sized?
How about the Grizzly Cartridge Company load of a 405gr Kodiak softpoint at 2000+ fps. Josef Riekers ( http://www.webspawner.com/users/albemarle/ )
shoots these all the time and has killed 100+ hogs , multiple Cape Buffalo, BIG Nilgaia, bear, ETC with them. They kick a bit in an 1886 EL, but are not bad in my 26" 1886 .45-90.

Or, you could load up some 300 gr Nosler Partition Protected Points to 2200 fps (above that and tend to break up) and take down most any piggie you like. Grizzly also loads those too, if you do not handload.
BTW, this same Nosler in a factory .45-70 Winchester Partition Gold at 1800+ fps has done well for me on deer sized game, but I cannot show you a recovered bullet, as they shot through them all.

I've got some 405 Remmy FP's being chased by 55 gr of Benchmark that will lift your front foot off the ground out of a Marlin lever. Don't know if I'm man enough to try anything more man sized or not.

500 grain bullets from Garrett,will wake you up.Make sure you have a gun corset on when shooting theses grains.Holds the tummy taut and keeps the back straight.
Oh,how I miss Elmer Keith.

Here are some Man Sized Loads with a 525 grain Cast and all these loads were pressure checked and under 40,000 "PSI" which is less than in CUP at this level.The RL-7 data is with the old colored powder not the newer version.

The recoil is actually less than with say a 420 grain cast around the same velocity..Put these in a 24" or 26' barrel and your approaching or over 1900 fps with a 525 grain bullet.

http://beartoothbullets.com/open_sight/archive_open_sight.htm/21


Jayco

What's the OAL of those 525's? Will they cycle in the 1895?

Oops...saw it after reading further.

good stuff, im interested in one load in particular mainly because i have the powder on hand its 52 gr of h4895 and an OMG 525gr bullet i cant wait to try that in a 7lb gun

If these loads are man sized, what would a full power .458 Lott be, T-Rex sized?

458 lott would be rosie odonnel sized

Don't rule out H335... It's very consistent and relatively temperature stable. I use 55grs under a 465gr hardcast in Rem nickel brass fired by WLRM primers. My computer program says it's less than 40,000 cup. Shoots MOA at 1900 fps from my Marlin with 22" tube. It sure flattens big black bears!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Elmer's load shot well for me in my old 1895 with the curved buttplate, but I ran out of shoulder so I traded it; and I'm not especially recoil sensitive. If I was really going into bear country with a 45-70 I would consider the 300gr Nosler Partition at around 1900 to 2000 fps.

I use the Piledriver Jr. which is 425 grains, loaded with 42 grains of RL7. It gives about 1600 fps in my rifle, doesn't kick loose the few brain cells I have left, and is safe pressurewise even in a Trapdoor Springfield. It will give complete penetration on any animal in North America, so I've never seen any reason to load it hotter. Yeah, the trajectory is *slightly* better with the 1900 fps loads, but not enough to make a significant difference.

Nosler 300grs Partition in front of 61,5grs VN133 for around 680m/s

350grs Hornady FP in front of 58,5 VN133 for a bit less than 630m/s

540grs LFN/GC in front of 37grs VN130 for around 500m/s

In a Winchester (Japan made)1886 with 22in barrel.

Some french made 405grs lead with 8%tin and 6%antimony loaded very stoutly with french Vectan TU2000 zipped throught mild steel pepper popper target used on a practical shooting range at 30meters, holes were very neat as drilled....

One of them texas heart shot at a red deer doe goes right throught and exited in front of the right front leg, distance was around �(meters and the doe was running fast. Don't go more than 3 meters after behing hit and rolled like a rabbit shot with N�7.....They stop wild boars very well too.

i did up a few "man sized" loads for my guide gun and quickly decided i wasnt hunting men so i backed off on the power level my shoulder thanked me for it......im very happy just lobbing the 350-450 grainers at more sedate levels.....even then those hard lead slugs do alot of plowing through chit.....i like using it on smart gopher late in the season....when they start holding tight to their holes and not giving me much target....rather than buying a super accurate 22 to take over where the 10/22 leaves off i just dig out the guide gun and hold on dirt my brother calls it cheating but he always asks to use it too............

For sure, you're right, these are heavy loads that are easily controlled while hunting but rather unpleasant to shoot for long time...But it's good experimenting, even if it's closer to masochism than to shooting sports! Here in France we are not a lot of guys handloading 45-70 to such level and they are overkill for all our games, but you must blame all the books and magazines we read that come from the States, make us dream of big bears and Far North. Most of all, i think we enjoy to see the faces of other hunters, looking at us like we were ejected from a lunatic asylum, speaking of our "cannon" and staying away from these "loonies". It's good sometimes to feel like being from an "other world". I'm sure you can understand that. Not to be under gunned i just finished with a good friend gunsmith, the transformation of an original 71 in .50Alaskan...
Mule Deer call people like us rifle loonies and for sure he's right!

Get a Speer reloading manual circa 1980 (#12??) and run the H322 loads for the 400 grain flat point. Shot that load for 20 years before I got a new manual....the loads are reduced so much I'm almost afraid to shoot my old max loads.

The old loads for the Marlin are heavier than the new loads for bolt-action/Rugers!!!!

They do thump though...couple of bears and a few deer can attest to that!

i have always wanted a marlin, and if im gonna git a marlin it is gon be a 45/70 and if im shootin a 45/70 i may not always but i will certainly shoot man sized loads some of the time and theres no time better than if im in bear country. after shootin my buds gg with the h4895 with a 525 grain hardcast backed off 10 percent, im wonderin if maybe a lighter load would be superior in a defensive situation, follow up shots were real slow.

I don't ever want to face a charging Grizzly with a 45-70! I just don't have that much confidence in the caliber, I have seen it used on deer and elk and I used the 45-90 on deer and elk and never was impressed...I'd much rather have a 30-06 M-95 Win lever action carbine and shoot 200 gr. Noslers in it for big bear...

lol wasnt saying there was anything wrong with it....more like a comment that the straight gripped fairly light Marlin Guide Guns arent exactly the best platform for very heavy loads ....its a rifle that tends to beat me up with heavy loads and it seems to be because of the design of the rifle......i love the gun but i aint going to be running full power loads through mine....it does pretty impressive things at pretty moderate velocities with a heavy chunk of lead.....if you like to hot rod yours more power to yah but i like running alot of rounds through mine because it is just a fun gun to shoot at things like chunks of tree trunks and watching them punch through 18 inches of wood, shattering volleyball sized rocks.....punching through 6-8 inches of dirt before hitting the gopher....you can do alot of that with fairly mild loads at under 100 yards.....and yah can do it alot more times in an afternoon if yah arent doing full power loads

If you want killing performance,don't bother with the hardcast slugs. They are penetrators pure and simple. Use a Hornady 350 gr flatpoint or the Nosler partition 300 grain. Ray had bad experiences with the old calibers mostly because he used big,heavy hardcast. The old time boys paperpatched their bullets and could use any lead alloy they wanted. I had perfect expansion and killing performance with a 535 grain SOFT cast paper patched slug on a moose. 30:1 lead to tin. Soft. NO LEADING because of the paper patch. Not practical for a levergun so use an expanding, penetrating bullet such as those I noted. You really don't require to kick them in the ass TOO hard. 1900 fps will do fine and they'll make BIG DEEP holes in anything you shoot them at.

As usual...we all dream and generalize as Marseille pointed out...and generalizing just causes hoohaas. For a beastie the size of a grizzly I want PENETRATION...they are thick in all directions, but penetration is a poor substitute for bullet placement. Sticking one from stem to stern only in the muscle mass won't do anything but pi** it off more.

You would be better served to learn how to shoot, then pick one of the several excellent bullets available for the 45-70 leverguns, THEN, go out and practice some more and test the penetration and bullet upset of that particular bullet and/or read up a little more on the why's and wherefore's of bullet upset vs no upset.

As far as rifle size I knew an ol'boy that used an open sighted 250 Savage Md 99 with 100 gr factory level reloads to take everything up to grizzly..,usually one shot each...I reloaded for him. 100 rounds lasted him 8-10 years.

I constantly laugh at the recoil issue with a levergun. My Marlin 356 W weighed 8 lbs new and bare...now slightly over 9 with scope, sling, and all the little foofoo pretties. My 458 WM SMLE 2A actioned rifle weighs near the same...9.6 lbs and I don't have any issues with the recoil with 500-550 gr bullets and I don't consider myself all that recoil proof, just learned how to shot heavy recoiling rifles.

I use a 430 gr Oregon Trails TrueShot loaded to 2050 fs for the most part. I consider it a mild load but it has 4000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle and 3000 at 100 yds...doyathink it will handle a grizzly or any other N.A. game or African game???? and only about 45 ftlbs of recoil. Stiff but not all that much. With a MB that recol reduces to not much more than a 300 WM.

I think most of the "oooooh it hurts" comes from armchair hunters in reality.

I always take one of my heavies along when I go ratting and shoot up all of last years reloads in prep for the coming seasons. It keeps me aware of the difference between a 17 FB and a 45-120.

The old tried and tru Rem 405 factory load will handle all the game except grizzly in N.A., and the same bullet loaded up a bit is also excellent. I shoot eveything from 300 to 720 gr in my 45 cal shooters, hard caste, soft caste, jacketed, etc, but pick my bullet for the game I expect to hunt. I expect the bullet to perform in the way it was designed. When bullets expand, penetration depth decreases...hard cast bullets act like solids or FMJ's, and I don't expect one bullet to do everything.

And when things go sour, most of the blame goes on the hunters shoulders, NOT on the bullet. A bullet is a dumb "thing"...how can you blame a "dumb thing" for anything???? That's like blaming a car for running over a person. The car didn't do anything except what the driver told it to.

I know it is hard for humans with their fragile egos to accept blame or the consequences of their actions, but once you start you might find it much easier to learning a thing or several. LOL

No flame or diss intended to anyone. My observations are intended as learning tools for those interested...an alternative way of looking at things...maybe opening the eye to a different picture...but if taken as a fry job you can guess just how much I care.

Luck on your hunts.

Tried this load today and it worked excellent. Thanks, its my new pet load.

+1

Been using that load for 30 years; clocks 1800 FPS.

Knocks hell outta just about anything you care to shoot with it.

MM

I am currently using water quenched cast wheel weight bullets from the LEE 459-500-3r mould. These weigh in at 491.7 grains prior to lube,(Lyman super moly lube).
My load is 45.0 gr RX-7, WLR primer, 2.788" OAL.
For a 5 shot average at 16 ft over a CHRONY F1 Master:

My Enfield No. 1 that I re-barreled with a Navy Arms 22" 45-70 barrel gets 1665 fps.

My H&R Buffalo Classic 32" barrel gets 1754 fps.

Both rifles are running 1.82 and 1.36 inches CTC respectively for 5 shots off the benchrest at 100 yds.

I have varied the loads up and down and this load has given the tightest groups in both rifles so it is "IT" as far as I'm concerned.

I run 55 grains of 4895 behind 405 grain slugs and they leave at around 1,700fps (don't have my notes handy right now). Factory Remingtons with the same slug did around 1,230 fps. Unlike factory fodder, my loads do get my attention when I light one off. Surprisingly accurate too. My plans are to use it as a dark timber elk unit.

You don't say where "up country" he's headed or what sort of bears he's expecting to encounter. Blackies? Grizz? Alaska Brown? But if Brian Pearce dropped a Cape buff (pace, atkinson ) with CorBon ammo - 405 gr. @ about 1800 fps, IIRC - I doubt your buddy needs to shake his molars loose with 2000 fps. loads, even if he needs a stopping round as opposed to a hunting one. Given a decent load, bullet placement will likely be as important as an extra 100 fps.

BTW, anyone tried the new Barnes Busters?

Stuart