Hi, I went out to the range today to do load development, for the first time I'm actually considering a lead sled. I shot five 3 shot groups using the Barnes 570g TSX with both H4895 (98 to 101 grains) and RL-15 (101 to 105 grains) ending at the recommended max for each in the Barnes Manual #4. Once I got close to the max (which showed no pressure signs at all) off of the bench to say it was painful would be an understatement. I did not develop a flinch, but I could see it happening if I continued (I shot 15 rounds from the bench (sitting), some just over 2300 fps. The difference in recoil between a 570g bullet at 2100 fps and 2300 fps is striking. That coupled with a the bench rest being too low tended to focus the recoil high up on the shoulder (ice bag on it now lol, pictures should it bruise up beautifully will follow)

I was shooting between 1.5" to just over 2" groups at 200 yards so accuracy was fine with all loads. I only have a 1.5 - 5x scope so a lot of the error was in sight picture as well as the shooter, the rifle is more accurate than me as is usually the case.

So Ray, Medicman, yes you were right of course. Shooting the 500 Jeffrey at relaxed 500 NE levels is fine (570g at 2100 fps), I'm sure off of sticks or offhand all of the loads I shot today would've been fine, but even though I intend to really limit any bench shooting, I want to be able to shoot a limited amount of rounds from the bench for load development and sight in without pain. I guess I've found my recoil tolerance level lol

Thanks all for all of your help, going to give the shoulder a few weeks to recover ...

I call that great accuracy,and damn good shooting, but your underestamating that good 1.5x5 Leupold scope, put the highest dollar best scope on it and I'll bet you dollars to donuts accuracy will not increase substantially.

That said I feel the 500s are best used with a receiver sight or a shallow V on the barrel, as they give you all the accuracy you need at the ranges you will shoot the big 500s, that being up to about 200 or so yards, and you won't get that inevitable half circle scar over your shooting eye that will without a doubt happen sooner or later, probably in a charge situation, cuz when it rains it pours!..

Thanks Ray, I think my bruise is gonna be glorious tomorrow, but my shoulder feels much better already treating it with ice and scotch (ice only on the shoulder).



Chuck

Colorado you grabbed a tiger by the tail! LOL

Now when I was setting my .470-Capstick up, I had a muzzle brake on the end of that 26 inch barrel just for load development and also used a PAST RECOIL pad worn on my shoulder. Now doing so sure did take most of the bit out of that shoulder cannon.

I shot both 500 and 600 gran bullets out of the rifle. I even used some of those Barnes XLC blue bullets (cut the nose off some) and they feed ok from magazine to the chamber. No problem at all with shooting. I do agree with Ray though, I am taking that scope off that rifle and using a swallow V sight for close work on big game.

I know have the muzzle brake in a draw and the barrel has been cut down to 22.5 inches with a Mag-Na-Port job on the end of the barrel. Muzzle jump is very slight even at 2300fps and 500 grn pills going down the barrel. I hope your shoulder heals up quick with no problems.

Ray
It sounds like maybe you got that scope kiss once. I was in a sniper comp one time. It came up unexpected to me and all I had to shoot was my 338 win mag with 250gr as I had been moose hunting. Everything was fine until the final three shots. An awkward shooting position was forced by the shoot layout, and the first of the three got me with the scope, the second came back and did the same. It was really hard not to flinch with the third, but it broke perfectly with a three round group at 340yds of 2.30" I had to clean up the blood and put butterfly strips to close the wound, but my aggregate score won me twenty bucks. Hey I was younger then.

This past spring I took a springbok with the rifle at 300 yds, no scope bite.

Shooting that 570 grain from the bench does not appeal but off my legs and snugged in sure does.

Randy

Yeah and the tiger turned around and bit me lol... I'm sure my shoulder will be fine. The real problem was leaning forward on the bench because my rest was too low. That caused the butt to hit the bottom of the collar bone. Also my stubborness not to stop until I had fired all 15 rounds lol ... I'm thinking of buying a lead sled for load development and initial sight in. Of course final sight in will be off hand and off of sticks. If I use a minimal amout of lead (10 to 25 lbs) and don't lock the rifle down, the stock should be fine right?

Thanks for all of your help, I deleted the picture of the bruise,

Chuck

A low rest will absolutely kill you. I built my shooting table too low (used folding metal table legs) and now I suffer when shooting the Rigby off bags to check zero. Between a low bench and a high chair (not a highchair you jackals!) I get the tripe kicked out of me. Maybe I should saw 4" off the chair legs.

Yup I've learned that the hard way, lol ... Went out and bought a lead sled today. Got some more load development to do, it's going to wait a few more weeks until my shoulder's no longer a conversation piece...

Thanks,

Chuck

Sounds like it's better you shooting that thing than me. I don't think I could handle that recoil too well.

One word of advice about using the lead sled. Might not hurt to put some extra padding between the stock and the stock holder on the rear of the sled. I like to use a towel or terry rag. Drape the rag over the holder, and then push the stock down in there. That holder is metal and the factory padding ain't that heavy. If you have a wood stock (especially with a raised cheek piece) there's a good chance of sratches or dings.

I know this from experience. I put a nice dent in the stock of my 700 CDL-SF first time I shot it off a sled.

Thanks much Heeler, I think "Baby" and I are getting acquainted. Lighter loads, more padding and a lead sled to next time out ... 500 NE power should be more than enough for anything I plan to come across



Chuck

Colorado,
Your trying to handle recoil, but with the 500s that is an oxymoran, you need to concentrate on pain management! The ice is nice but it won't help, the scotch in large doses is the best remedy you have mentioned thus far, the other is a 222 Remington.

I assure you that your rifle is of sufficient power, but at some point in your life you will find the truth, probably on some mountain top in a far away land when some Dally Lama will say "Colorado, you dumb a$$, get a 375 or 416!! :):) Yeehaw are we having fun now!

You gave me the idea, my poooost if you faultttt, sorry its the Scotch!

Well Ray you told me in the beginning my 375 H&H was enough (as did my older son). I have to say it is fun shooting with open sights off hand but 5 more shots off the bench and I would've spilled my guts lol ...

Lead sled off the bench, lighter loads (570g Barnes at 2050 fps or so ...) plus I added a slip on Limbsaver recoil pad. Should be fine ... now where's that scotch ...



Chuck

Finally made it back to the range ... Lead sled from the bench, my God what a difference! Only put 10 lbs on it. Backed off my 570g Barnes TSX's to 2100 fps. Pussycat off the bench with the lead sled, 3 shots cut the same hold .6" group. Offhand it feels like a strong 375 (I must still be punch drunk). So it seems I'm ready for elk season, sighted in 2.5" high at 100 yards almost dead on at 25 yards.

Some of us only learn the hard way ...



Chuck

I use a dummer's stool as well as a 1" spacer for my rear bag when shooting off the bench. Keeping my spine straight and not hunching over into the rifle helps tremendously.

Great to hear you dropped to 2100 as that is original plus a bi and more than adequate.

Randy

Actually the best way to conquer the beast is a full stand up bench rest such as the ones the English use to regulate double rifles or if worst comes to worst nail a board up on a telephone post or whatever, cover the board with a towel or some kind of padding and shoot off that for testing.

Those big bores won't kill you, they just scare the crap out of you, once you conquer the fear and a little pain, your good to go! at least until your 60 to 70 years old then you pay the piper with bursitas, poor hearing, and mental confusion, but hey its all worth it as I recall, I think!

lol Ray, I turned 60 last year, though nothing keeps you young like getting out in the wild, going after something that can bite you or stomp you. Well maybe a young lady, but since I'm married that's probably more dangerous ...



Chuck

You already have a .375 H&H and now you are going to carry a .500 Jeff in it's place? You don't like the recoil of the Jeff. What can I say? I have a single shot .500 Jeff, and that is just what it is, a single shot.

Actually I rebarreled my 375 H&H to 500 Jeff, even worse lol! No, I'm comfortable with the recoil shooting 570g Barnes TSX's Banded Solids at 2100 fps. The balance is better (I had a second recoil reducer put in). I made the mistake of firing my 500 Jeff with full house loads (570g TSX at 2400 fps) 15 times from a too low bench position. I won't do that again. I can get off 3 shots in 5 seconds (too slow) and hit within 2" of the bullseye at 30 yards. I'll get better with "Baby with some practice now that she and I are better acquainted.

Regards,

Chuck

The starting loads I tried in my 500 Jeffrey pushed a 600 gr bullet 2200 fps. It really gets your attention, but honestly my 458 lott was more objectionable due to the faster recoil.

Funny thing is, my 500 Jeffrey project has been going on many years, and I still haven't finished it. I wonder why

I did have my chamber long throated to accept 50 bmg bullets, and let a buddy launch a 690 gr bullet. Even shooting it standing up, it got all over him.

My last .500 A2 loads were 120 gr IMR 4350 behind a 600 gr Woodleigh bullet. My rifle weighs 11.5 lbs empty, 12.0 full, and I confess to having no real desire for more recoil. I'll chrono the load when I get a chance, but it's supposedly nowhere near max.

As the recoil gets more and more powerful, the follow up shots get slower and slower. I try to shoot in pairs at the range. By this I mean that I try to double tap when practicing, firing the second shot as quickly as I can. I think this does two things: it forces me to pay attention and hold on, and it makes me more aware of the cost of recoil in terms of time. It also makes me pay attention where I put my feet. I also try very hard not to get in habit of admiring my shot and the automatic firing of a second shot seems to help.

Depending on how I feel, I'm good for 12-15 full tilt loads per shooting session. Some days I feel better, other days my head starts aching after 10 or so. Off of shooting sticks, I've shot a number of groups with all holes touching out to 40 yards with a 1x optical sight; with a 2 3/4 sight it's even easier.

Because it's just not possible to shoot very many rounds accurately through the big gun in one session, I try to focus on quality shooting rather than quantity shooting. I'd rather to 4 or 5 drills well, than blast away 20 or 25 times. That said, 535 gr bullets at about 2100 fps are a pleasure to shoot and it's no trick to go through 25-30 in a practice session.

Earlier someone stated that there was a big difference between 600 gr bullets at 2100 fps vs those same bullets at 2300 fps, in terms of recoil. I couldn't agree more; the extra 200 fps greatly increase the perception of recoil.

I've been to Africa once for plains game, and I'd very much like to go back for elephant (thus the .500 A2), but my plans are on hold until my daughter graduates from college; first things first.

You could always try the powder IMR-4320, gave me very good results in a .458-Lott and .475 mag.

I would email Geoff at Woodleigh and ask him for starting and max load data for H4895. It's very accurate and clean burning in my 500 Jeffrey. I have to believe you would get similar velocity to what you're getting now with your 600g bullets with significantly less recoil (maybe 10 ft lbs?). Of course if you were going for max velocity it wouldn't work for you, and each rifle tends to have it's own "favorite powder".

Think about this when you have time. Remember before smokeless powder there were lots of elephant killed with bullets traveling along at 1400 fps that killed vary well without a huge up roar from hunters. So would a better bullet today traveling along at 1900-2100 fps do any poorer?

I went with the IMR 4350 because **supposedly** you can't stuff enough in a case to cause excessive pressures with a 600 gr bullet. Since I've been too busy doing other things to get out the chronograph, I felt that was the best sanity check against unsafe loads. There's .500 A2 loading data out there, but a great deal of it is word of mouth, which calls for a certain amount of caution, and, in my opinion, a chronograph as safety check. Previously, I used 108 gr of RL15, which is also reasonably under max, but I was uncomfortable inching upward with a powder which I know can be overloaded. I don't mind testing upward as long as I have a chrono. The .500 A2 isn't a super-exotic like a .577 T-Rex or similar, but it's not like there's one in every deer camp, and I don't know how standard the chambers / throats are, etc. My rifle is an A2, so I would assume that it is as standard as possible, but you never know ...

Anyway, my choice of IMR 4350 was a form of protection against myself.

From what I've read, the African ivory hunters at the dawn of the smokeless age dumped the old black powder guns as quickly as they could. Most of what I've read suggested that the black powder guns were marginal and had unpredictable results on elephant.

I never tried 4350 in my 500 Jeffrey. In my 350 rigby I loaded both Varget and 4350 to get 2700 fps w/ 250's, and the recoil with the 4350 was signifigantly greater then that of the Varget. I've also loaded VVN550 in the 458 lott, and recoil was signifigantly stronger then that of RL 15 or Varget. My thinking is the slower powders develop their peak pressure later in the firing process and have higher pressure when the bullet leaves the barrel, which results in the rifle rotating more the stock slapping you silly.

100 gr of RL15 or Varget is a good starting load with 600's and should get you ~2200 fps. I'd expect recoil will be much less than that of 4350. I also think you'll run into recoil issues before pressure issues.

IMO the recoil of the .470 loaded with a 500 gr. bullet at 2245 FPS is horrendous but that was the old Butch Searcy regulation load..I found out that Butchs rifles will shoot most bullets to the same POI within reason, so I loaded mine down to a 500 gr. Woodleigh at 2020 FPS and it was much nicer on this old body..

The surprise came with how will it just dumped those big Dagga boys over, I couldn't tell any difference in the two loads so I stuck with the milder of the two and shot a lot of buffalo with it...

I suggest that the 500 Jefferys would do the same thing but even better, a 600 gr. bullet at 2000 FPS would be like the hammer of Thor, I promise you that....There are times when bigger isn't better, maybe more than we think!

Being able to see your target played the big role, getting away from the smoke was a major advantage.