Hi,

I'm brand new to the forum. Been lurking for a while. Been shooting for a long time.

A few years ago I got the itch to buy some big bore rifle. I found a used Number 1 Tropical in Texas. The gentleman cut me a good deal and for $500 I got me a big bore. I bought 150 new win brass for about $70 and started loading. I shoot from mild to wild, cast and jacketed. The gun had some nice wear when I bought it so it was a perfect shooter. I used it to shoot a nice little fork buck one year with a reduced load, a speer 400g JFP over 65g of H4895. I never chrono'd it but it made a nice 1/2" hole through that buck.

If I ever get the chance to go to Africa, I'll buy a bolt gun probably in the same caliber, as I'm quite used the recoil of heavy loads. Though the 416 Ruger looks quite nice too.

None the less, I'll be posting here and there. I just recently bought a Ruger Alaskan 454. I like big bores and don't mind the recoil in limited quantities.

Great forum!!

welcome!

Big bores are remarkable cartridges for the handloader because you can both pick the bullet for the chore at hand, and also load to a velocity that is within your control.

By doing this for a period of time, the familiarity and understanding that the gun was designed by mortal man for use by mortal man, means you will gain proficiency and confidence.

I personnaly hate the recoil of a heavily loaded .458, but I love the cartridge. Most .458 rifles are too light which is why the recoil is heavy. For occasional use, most recoil can be managed in the field.

I have have many an SCI members state that they would love me to back them up using my .460 but to a man, they don't want to shoot it. It is something you learn to accept I think.

I have convinced myself anyway.

JW

I've been told (and I did so) to punch it out to .458Lott and then you have both. Never shot either but am waiting for my build and will report back.

All the hard hitters take a toll in time. The 338 hurts me about as bad as anything, and I shoot on up to 458 Lott...have for many years now.

If you shoot them long enough you'll have what I have, a bum shoulder and arm. I can hardly hold onto anything with my right hand anymore from too much big bore shooting.

But...I love the big holes they make!!!!

I think that is one reason the .45/70 has such a following. You get the big holes without the heavy recoil. Any cartridge that can be managed by the masses is going to be popular.

Where the .458 has an advantage over the Lott is in mind-set. You are more likely to load a 9 pound Model 70 .458 with 350 and 400 grain bullets and go hunting than a 10-11 pound .458 Lott which is mostly thought of as a stopping rifle for the handful, or couple of, dangerous game animals the majority of hunters will take.

It's quite personal really.

JW

I think your wise to look at the .416, its a fine combination of stopping power and recoil, much easier to shoot IMO...The std. .458 in factory persuasion does not recoil bad but it leaves a lot to be desired IMO.. Most know I am not a fan of the .458 Win. and prefer a Lott if I have to take a beating..However the Lott is no joy to shoot under any conditions, and if I have to load it down or with light bullets then I have defeated the original purpose of owning it..I should have bought a lighter rifle caliber.

Your clue to me was you don't mind recoil in "limited amounts" which IMO means you don't like recoil of your gun..I am the same way...therefore I chose a caliber that I could shoot any amount of rounds at a sitting and get by and that in my case is the .416 Rem or Ruger..Many would be better off with the great .375 H&H or 9.3x62..

I am also of the opine that the .416 kill better than the .458 Win. does on big stuff. That has been my experience based on shooting mostly buffalo and quite a few with both.

DCplumber,,, welcome to the Campfire,,, I have been here for a while and I think it is great, almost everyone will have a helpful comment if you toss out a question.
I also have a .458 win mag...I load it with 350gr Hornady RN and/or the Nosler Partition 300gr...I am still working up a load to give me the best groups, but the round is great. About a year ago I had some t-shirts printed that say .458 across to back, in large font.
Anyway, welcome again, talk to you soon, JH

I just picked up a .416 rigby from Dakota. I love it, I shot it a few times and then had problems with my piece o' crap swarovski scope, so I had to send it back to Swarovski and I have been shooting it with iron sights. I love it with or without the scope. I also shoot the .375 ultra and just picked up a .470 nitro...

Hi, thanks for the warm welcome.

The main reason I ended up with a 458 #1 is because it was only $500!! I would have gotten a lever gun in 45-70 or 450 marlin probably, but, well, you know, at the local gun club, we tend to get into pissin matches, and well, no one can shoot this nearly as well as I can. There are lots of 45-70's, which they tell me is close to a 458. I've done the math, the 45-70 falls short by about 20% given equal bullet weight. I AM NOT SLAMMIN THE 45-70! Since I'm not packin my bags for Africa yet, I figured the $500 deal was the way to go. It's cheap and fun.

All of that said, if I had the money and was heading for a dangerous game hunt, I would definitely be looking around. But for the time being, this baby is definitely making me familiar with big bore rifles.

I do like the nostalgia of older cartridges. I like the 416 Rigby alot. If I would have come across a number one in 416 Rigby, I would have bought that too.

My main target load in the 458 is a Meister 405g lead over 60g or Rel 7 with a mag primer. I load 100 at time. They last me through the summer.

I tried some Barnes 500g Triple shocks over 65g or H4895 and chrono'd them at 1950. That was nice round. I currently have some Speer Hot Core 350g over 70g of H4895 that I'll use for deer season this fall.

It definitely makes for interesting nights at deer camp. That's why we're there. For the conversation. Nuf said for now.

Thanks,

Welcome from here as well! Enjoy your time with the biggies and take the trip to Africa when you can.

good hunting,

MARK

DC,

You are right. The 458 can be a 45-70 but the 45-70 cannot be a 458. I love my 45-70 and love the performance I get from it but I will not try to make a 458 out of it. I keep hoping to stumble on to a deal like yours. I love big bores as well.

mart

Welcome. I plan on messing around more with my 458 this summer. It really needs to have the old Ruger red pad replaced though. I've made the move to downsize almost everything I hunt with, however the 458 was a gift from an old friend and I do love the way it handles. Need to figure out something to shoot with it this fall.

Aussie - you've nailed it! I shoot 350/400 grs in my .458 WM Rem 798 for those reasons. You get more trigger time w/o the snot beat out of you. I believe any 400 gr bullet, moving at 2200 + fps sufficient - after all, made the .404 Jeff's rep. Because of .45/70 usage these bullets (from a variety of mfgr's) are cheaper and easier to procure. Not many "Jumbo's" or "Buffs", needing the 500gr flavors, lurk in So. Florida. Have plenty of pythons and hogs however... Regards, Homesteader

The 458 Win has been the most popular big bore in most African countries now for over 50 years so I would say that it also deserves the "Classic" title as much as any cartidge.
I have twenty-seven years experience with it and the more I use other large bores the more impressed I am with it. Like the three bears - it's not too big - it's not too small - it's just right for any game in any circumstances.

How long of a barrel do I need with a .458WM to reliably get a muzzle velocity of 2050 fps with a 480-500gr bullet? That's the combination that made the .450 Nitro famous and if it can be done with a WM from a short barrel that's enough for me.

22 inches will do it easily. Just get a standard Model 70 and you are there. I have actually chronographed 22 inch tubes that were faster than factory ammo with 450's at 3300fps and some 500's at 2100-2200fps, also 550's at 1950-1975fps.

It is a great cartridge and makes a wonderful heavy brush hunting cartridge for larger or potentially dangerous game and is equally efficient with 45/70 bullets loaded for pigs.

With 350 X bullets, it will shoot flat to 300 yards and more if you learn how to utilize its potential. The 400 grainers are great for large US game and most African game.

JW

Interesting...

The only scope I have had fail in 48 years hunting with scoped rifles was a Swaro on a 9,3X62. It self-destructed inside, and I had them give me a refund, not another scope. I had a Bushnell Banner on an old 458 for 25 years, and it was still "ticking". I bought it that way with the older Weaver mounts, as it was very inexpensive, and the former owner had several cases of "magnum eyebrow" from it.

Welcome. I don't have a big bore nor do I particularly want one.

Well.... I have shot a truckload of deer with my old 6 pound Ithaca 37, 12 gauge. Now that little gun shooting 3 inch magnums will reposition my hat. Does that qualify as a big bore?

Anyway, welcome.
May you derive much pleasure from time spent with the guys on the forum. They tend to not be shy concerning their opinion and levity may, at times, trump facts.
Enjoy and Best to you.
Jim

I would like to go down to an 18" barrel. For the long range stuff I have a .416 rigby but the .458 would be for bears and such. Stopping rather than hunting so short is a major bonus.

If you set a velocity standard of 2050fps as stated, then cropping the barrel to 18 inches will defeat your goal. That does not mean the cartridge will not perform on the gane you hunt.

.458 Win (Phil Shoemaker) has quoted a 20 inch barrel on his .458 and it suits his needs for brown bear, but you really havn't stated yours, apart from the velocity request.

JW

I'm sure you could get a bit over 2000fps with an 18 inch barrel using 2230 powder but - as much as I like shortbarreled rifles- an 18" tube on a 458 seems like too much of a "good" thing.

Just talking about it might develope a flinch! I cringe at the idea, but then I do have a recoil tolarence lower than some of these bad boys on the internet.:) IMO, if I ever own another .458 Win. It will have a 26 inch barrel, weigh at least 9.5 lbs. iron sighted..That would get me the velocity I want and it sure would kill anything I shot with it and it would be within my recoil torlerance. My friends on this forum have bent my mind, destroyed my curmudgeon attitude, and have me thinking maybe I would like to own a .458 win. once again, dammit Phil, your a desease!

Ray, I heartily recommend one and once you give it a try you will learn what African and Alaskan PH's learned years ago - that 500gr 45's hit harder than 400gr 40's

The .458 Winchester is a great cartridge. With the same pressures, you'll only get about 50 to 70 fps more with the Lott. My Model 70 has a 22" barrel and goes 10.2 pounds with scope and sling. I would not want a shorter barrel because it would be a detriment to stable offhand shooting. It is easy to get 2200 fps with 500 grain bullets, 2250 with 450 grain bullets, and 2700 with 350 grain TSXs. The only problem is the 350s don't shoot anywhere near the same POI as the heavier ones.

It would be for fishing and such in Alaska and as a spare for my trip to Africa in 2011. I would aim for 10-11 pounds iron sighted as I am not bothered by heavy weapons like I am long ones. I would just get a Lott but the spare action I have is a .300WM.

I really like my 458 win. mag. I have been using AA2230 with the new Hornady 500 grain DGX/DGS and easily attain 2150-2175 fps.

Recoil is not my primary concern, having a lighter weight, quick handling, and accurate rifle is at the top of the list. I have been using an older (1965 vintage) FN Browning Safari, it tips the scales at about 8 lbs (unscoped and empty) and it is just about perfect for my needs. I liked it so much I recently purchased one in 375 H&H, also a 1965 vintage....these rifles are really nice!

This is a very true statement in my experience, and the reason I let all 4 of my .416 rifles go. I believe there is a bigger hit with the .45's and believe it can be seen in the field when you shoot both .416 and the .45's enough.

JW

I think the setup of the rifle is more of a deciding factor than the caliber. There are plenty of big rifles that are more pleasant to shoot than some of the smallers. Due to setup

heck i learnd something here never tryed 2230 in my 458 have alway relied on 4895 so now i cant wait to try 2230 if i can find some on the shelf

Phil and Aussie,
Well I may in fact get me a .458 Win. I have used it a bit but its been a long time and I have used the 458 Lott more than the 458 Win. but find it abusive in recoil..

BTW, be that as it may I have never found the 40 calibers lacking on buffalo or elephant, thus my choice of them..but I like to play so maybe I will pick me up another .458 Win.

For that matter I would hunt buffalo or elephant with 220 gr. Nosler partitions and solids respectively without fear of my life or reprisal from anywhere but on the internet.

I have 2 of those Winchester model 70 .458's, one has 22 inch barrel and the other has a 24 inch barrel. I like shooting the 24 inch barrel better, just feels more balanced to me. I like shooting those 450 grain Barnes bullets in it and at 75 yards from the bench, it prints a 1.25 inch group.

However, I like shooting my .416 Rem. mag in a model 70 much better and it is more accurate and does not push me around as much. I really like this rifle and it has killed several animals like the hammer of Thor! The .416 is more of a pleasure to shoot, especially from the bench verses either of the .458's when using 500 grain bullets. I guess that extra 100 grains of lead unlocks the beast in the .458 big bores.

Phil, Aussie and all,
I have stayed away from 2230 as it was always said to be a dirty burning powder, is that true? Also, are there any temperature sensitivity problems with 2230?
Thanks in advance.

While I'm definitely no expert I have reloaded quite a bit for the 458 WM and the best powder i have used in it yet has been Varget. Clean burning mild pressures and excellent accuracy.

I have tried Varget but found H4895 is a little denser, so that has been my go to powder. Have begun to investigate RL17 and haven't blown anything up yet, but many seem to be getting good results with 2230.

I like AA2230 the best for 450 or 500 grain bullets. H335 proved almost as good, or maybe just as good, but I stopped using it because there was no advantage. AA2230 lets me get slightly greater velocities than H4895 or Varget, at least for 450s. Temperature is not an issue with me as it gets just as hot in the northern US as it does in Africa during the months I hunt. As far as being dirty, this is not an issue when I'm hunting.

For lighter (350 grain) bullets, I prefer H4198 and can get 2700 fps in a 22" barrel. I ran out of case capacity before I encountered pressure problems. I also tried AA1680 with these lighter bullets but there was no advantage.