Ok, not really. David Clay is lengthening the action of my 1895 cowboy right now.

In February I had mailed the gun to him with a couple dummy rounds I wanted to it to chamber/cycle. The rounds I sent measured 2.75 COL using .45-90 brass trimmed to 2.3".

Well I got really excited after talking to him yesterday, because he said he has it cycling up to 2.85" COL. If this is true I can used untrimmed .45-90 brass with the 300 grain HP's I normally use (Horandy or Sierra). It will basically be a .45-90 Marlin, the only difference being that a .45-90 COL (for lever rifles)is 2.88" vs 2.85".

Well after I got home I punched the new numbers into my internal ballistics software and came up with a maximum power of 4,700 ft-lbs using a 300 gr HP and Accurate 2450.

I think that is .458 win mag territory in a lever action.

-JR

JR....Good to know! I am taking my 45/70 Marlin 1895 down to the range today, even though it is raining like cats and dogs here in my area. Yesterday I had a go with the .444 Marlin and it was still on at 75 yards using the Hornaday leverevolution ammo 3 shot group and 2 shots in the bulls-eye tell me all is well with the triple 4.

If you really want a 458WM in a lever, why not just get a magnum BLR and send it to a good smith for rebarreling?

Well the .458 uses a 500 gr. bullet and yours is a 300. REALLY big difference unless you are shooting at little things that don't turn around and try to eat/stomp you.

Build a proper .458 like .458 Win did to do it right.

Do you actualy think that a 300 grainload producing 4700 FPE is equal to a 500 grain bullet producing the same 4700 FPE? Another great example of the uselessness FPE as an indicator of terminal performance

I bought the 1895CB a couple years ago when I was interviewing with Conoco Phillips in AK thinking I was moving up there. Well the job offer fell through, but I fell in love with the gun. I love that it had the 26" octagon barrel and could hold 10 rounds.

I soon realized the limitations of the .45-70 factory loads and the price of buffalo bore ammo. I then purchased a full handloading play set. Ever since I have been trying to squeeze more range out of these tube magazine safe, barn-door shaped, .458 rounds.



I guess I was really comparing it to a .458 win mag with a 300 grain bullet. Clearly the strength of the .458 win is that its max COL is 3.34" so you can have the big 500 grainers sticking way out of the case. For those of us with repeating firearms the bolt/carrier travel is limited so we don't have the luxury of huge COL's.

I don't hunt for the stompy crushy animals. So far I have only hunted deer with this rifle and it has actually proven to work great for that. I first started seeking more power just to extend the range for deer hunting. I had originally posted this thread not to knock the .458 win, but just because I was proud that my marlin is now in the same neigborhood of power.

Now that being said, at 4,700 ft-lbs of force and 9 quick follow up rounds I think it could hold its own against stompy crushy animals. There will always be a bigger gun no matter what you have (example: .600 NE vs .458 win).

Quick story. Two years ago I shot a doe in the ass with a 2.6 COL .45-70 with a 300 sierra HP(~3,700 ft-lb). It was by far the worst shot I had ever made, but sure as hell that doe dropped right there in its tracks. I can only imagine that the ft-lbs energy combined with a fast expanding 300 hp caused cardiac arrest in the doe. Ever since then when buddies say its overkill for deer I'll tell them that story and say I couldn't think of a more humane way to kill a deer.

This exit in the rib cage of a bulle Elk is from a 440 grain flast point hard cast from a 500 JRH at 960 FPS for only 888 FPE

Energy figures on a piece of paper mean exactly dick

Yes, I do think: 4700 = 4700

Maybe you meant to ask if the lethality is the same. If so I would say it depends on what you are shooting at. For example read the doe story at the end of my post above. With a 500 grain solid the doe would likely have had a .458" diameter hole straight through it, but nothing lethal. With the fast expanding 300 HP I was able to stop the doe's heart via its butt cheek. With an elephant clearly I would want the 500 grain bullet.

Keep in mind, the 300 grain 2.85" COL was just a scenario I punched into quickload and it told me 4,700 ft-lbs was the upper limit of what it could do. I haven't actually received the gun back and chronied it, nor have I punched 400, or 500 grains into quickload either. If I wanted to match the .458 win mag with those sized bullets I would have to have a larger COL and hand-feed the rounds into the chamber.

I wouldn't exactly say they mean dick. In fact the energy is the basis of many other equations to predict terminal ballistics. The energy tells you how much energy will need to be expended to stop the bullets travel, simple as that. The "energy expended" to stop the bullet first comes from the air then the ripping apart of the flesh of your prey and if the bullet goes completely through the animal then its comes from air again.

The caliber, mass, bullet type, etc clearly also each play a factor. I just haven't calculated some of the others (like TKO) for this .45-90 hot load yet.

Energy is calculated not measured. Momentum can be measured or calculated.

If you think that a FMJ solid 458 would not be lethal in your Deer story think again. A bullet strike is an inelastic collison, momentum is transfered in all collisions. Energy is transformed into other forms of energy in inelastic collisions ie thermal, sound, etc. Energy is transfered in lastic collisions as well as momentun.

The dynamics of wound trauma incapacitation are much more complex than a simple energy calculation. Tissue is crushed by the bullet as it passes thru, the faster a bullet impacts the more hydraulic presure that is created, if this pressure is grate enough it can also add to the wound channels size.

A 22-250 bullet at 3600 FPS has 1583 FPS. a 45 caliber bullet at 1400 FPS has 1567 FPS. Are the 2 equal in effectiveness on a Bear or a Buffalo? Of course not FPE is a useless number written on a piece of paper with no real value in acertaining the wound trauma of a cartridge

Recoil should be memorable in a light rifle!
I had a Ruger #3 in 45-70 and it was a real memorable experience with Elmer Keith type handloads!
The 35 Whelen is much more enjoyable to shoot, and will handle just about anything IMO.
whelennut

JR,
Just noticed from your post count that you are new to the forum.
Even though you're getting a baptism by fire, I would like to say a belated "Welcome".
There have been many threads comparing the 45-70 to the 458 Win Mag, some making outrageous claims for the 45-70 of superior penetration and exaggerated suitability for dangerous game, so this is one of those topics that bring out strong reactions from those that post here.
Hope your rifle turns out well and suits your needs.

JR,

The cat said it well. Welcome and lots of fun and great hunts with the Marlin. The .45-70 is a great round.

... and do not mind JWP. He is a good guy - we have not been able to figure out whats driving him up the wall of late.

A 300 grain in a 45/anything makes zero sense to me, but you only need to make yourself happy.

In theory, I follow you there, ...

in practice, though to many pigs and deer have met their demise through a 300 gr. TSX .458 from my Guide Gun to follow through with that.

Also this.

When I got home I ran the numbers to see what kind of power I could expect from 400 grain and 500 grain bullets in the 2.85 COL .45-90. It came up with up to 4600 ft-lbs is possible for the 400 and up to 3800 ft-lbs for the 500. Clearly the comparatively short COL of the .45-90 causes the energy to actually decrease with the longer bullets due to the lower powder capacity.

A possibility if more power is desired, is to hand chamber each round essentially making a single shot rifle. The limiting factor then would be the the length at which the bullet contact the throat. Also, a flat head screw driver would likely be needed to eject an unfired round.

-JR

How about for hunting white tailed deer with your favorite lever action?

By going with the relatively light 300 grain bullet I am able to extend the point blank range way beyond that which is possible with a heavier bullet.

I have witnessed the instantly lethal terminal ballistic performance associated a .45-70 300 HP loaded to 2350 fps against white tailed deer. I feel that with the .45-90 loaded to 2650 fps I could shoot a deer in the hoof and it would drop in its tracks (I am exaggerating).

I have never been chased by an elephant while hunting in Maryland/Virginia so I think loading 500 grain bullets would only decrease the performance of my hunting rifle. The point blank range of my scope/rifle would be way shorter (by more than half) and the bullet itself would not be as instantly lethal against deer as a hollow point.

Colisions


Conservation of Momentum

The law of conservation of momentum states that the total momentum of an isolated system with no external forces will be conserved. The momentum can be transferred from one object to another, but the total momentum can neither increase nor decrease.

Deciding whether momentum is conserved in a collision is easy. Momentum is conserved in all collisions. When doing a physics homework problem involving a collision, the total momentum is always the same before and after the collision. Always use the conservation of momentum equation.

Remember that momentum is a vector. In a two or three dimensional collision problem it is absolutely essential to add the momenta of the different objects according to the rules of vector addition. Divide all momenta in the problem into x and y components (and z for a three dimensional problem). Leaving out this step will virtually guarantee a wrong answer.





Conservation of Kinetic Energy

Energy is one of the fundamental quantities that is always conserved. The total amount of energy in an isolated system can neither increase nor decrease. Energy can however change form. That means that the total amount of kinetic energy in a system can change. Kinetic energy can decrease if it is converted to some other form of energy. If another form of energy is converted to kinetic energy, the total kinetic energy of a system can increase.



Working with kinetic energy equations can in some ways be easier than with momentum equations, but it can also in some ways be more difficult. Energy is a scalar rather than a vector quantity, so there is no need to divide energy into components. However velocity is squared in the kinetic energy formula, so solving kinetic energy equations often requires solving a quadratic equation.

In some collisions the initial kinetic energy can change form. For example if the collision produces a noise, kinetic energy transformed into sound energy. If the collision deforms the objects, some of the kinetic energy goes into deformation. Hence Kinetic energy may not be conserved in a collision.



Types of Collisions
Kinetic energy is conserved in some but not all collisions. Whether the kinetic energy is conserved depends on the type of collision. Physicists classify four types of collisions.

Elastic collisions: Kinetic energy is conserved in elastic, which are also called completely elastic, collisions. To solve these problems, use both momentum and kinetic energy conservation.

Inelastic collisions: Kinetic energy is not conserved in inelastic collisions. To solve these problems use momentum conservation but not kinetic energy conservation.

Completely inelastic collisions: In completely inelastic collisions, the objects stick together after the collision. That means they have the same velocity after the collision. To solve these problems, use momentum conservation and use the same velocity after the collision for the objects. Do not use kinetic energy conservation.
Explosive collisions: In explosive collisions kinetic energy increases. The extra kinetic energy usually comes from stored chemical potential energy. To solve these problems. use momentum conservation only.

Conservation of momentum applies to all collision homework problems. Understanding the different types of collisions helps students know when to use conservation of kinetic energy to solve physics collision problems.


---------------------------------------------------------------

Energy Is Not ConseredIn In Elastic Collisions


Truck in Head-on Collision
Inelastic Collision

Collisions between objects are governed by laws of momentum and energy. When a collision occurs in an isolated system, the total momentum of the system of objects is conserved. Provided that there are no net external forces acting upon the objects, the momentum of all objects before the collision equals the momentum of all objects after the collision. If there are only two objects involved in the collision, then the momentum change of the individual objects are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.

Certain collisions are referred to as elastic collisions. Elastic collisions are collisions in which both momentum and kinetic energy are conserved. The total system kinetic energy before the collision equals the total system kinetic energy after the collision. If total kinetic energy is not conserved, then the collision is referred to as an inelastic collision.

The animation below portrays the inelastic collision between a 1000-kg car and a 3000-kg truck. The before- and after-collision velocities and momentum are shown in the data tables.






In the collision between the truck and the car, total system momentum is conserved. Before the collision, the momentum of the car is +20000 kg*m/s and the momentum of the truck is -60000 kg*m/s; the total system momentum is -40000 kg*m/s. After the collision, the momentum of the car is -10000 kg*m/s and the momentum of the truck is -30 000 kg*m/s; the total system momentum is -40000 kg*m/s. The total system momentum is conserved. The momentum change of the car (-30000 kg*m/s) is equal in magnitude and opposite in direction to the momentum change of the truck (+30000 kg*m/s) .

An analysis of the kinetic energy of the two objects reveals that the total system kinetic energy before the collision is 800000 Joules (200000 J for the car plus 600000 J for the truck). After the collision, the total system kinetic energy is 200000 Joules (50000 J for the car and 150000 J for the truck). The total kinetic energy before the collision is not equal to the total kinetic energy after the collision. A large portion of the kinetic energy is converted to other forms of energy such as sound energy and thermal energy. A collision in which total system kinetic energy is not conserved is known as an inelastic collision.

I've hunted a bit with the 45-70 and like what it can do. I must admit, however, that chasing heavier bullets down the barrel with one of these light rifles - even "only" at 45-70 possibilities, can get "enough" rather quickly. (And my 358 Norma Ruger M77 with the factory standard [hard] pad doesn't bother me a bit.) Run some 350 or 400 A-Frames hard if you want to maximize you 45-70/90!

BTW, seeing what "energy" can do one has only to view what it can't do sometimes. I once put two 200 Nosler BTs into the stomach of a smallish caribou at 50-75 yards. (My shooting was okay; I placed both shots nearly the same, but the sights were way off.) The rifle was a 340 Weatherby, a rifle that has pushed its bullets to 4999 calculated FPE. But that caribou took both bullets without losing its feet (in spite of the stomach and its contents being pretty well scattered about.)

There's nothing wrong at all with an energetic collision, but it has to affect important stuff. Otherwise it's wasted.

+1...............

Thanks.

There are a bunch of good forums I've found that deal with my shooting interest over the years. They are now all blocked at my work because they are "dangerous weapon sites". Luckily I guess the net-nanny software or what ever they are using considers this a camping site.

jwp475,

When my bullet hits its prey I like the kinetic energy to be transfered first into deformation energy leading to a higher energy within the animal in the form of pressure.

I also like the energy and the momentum to be transfered as much as possible to prey and not off in the dirt somewhere beyond the prey.

I don't understand worrying about dirt energy, but whatever.

What with the shape of the Marlin stock and the recoil of a .458Winchester round I'll bet you can hardly wait to shoot a box of factory loads through it?

Ironically, with the Speer selection, the 300 is easily their best 45-70 bullet, followed by the 350, with the 400 last in terms of toughness and penetration..........???

If the 350 gr Hornady Interlock RN will feed through the Cowboy gun that should make a good compromise between the 300 and the 500 gr slugs. The recoil should be very satisfying at high velocity!
whelennut

Although a 300gr Barnes should cut a wide path of destruction

I forgot to mention nose shape is important. A chain fire in a 10 round magazine would be memorable!
whelennut

I'm not gonna lie, even the leverevolution bullets scare the piss out of me. All the rounds I have been cooking up involve hollow points or flat noses. The interesting thing is that despite the better drag coefficient of the leverevolution bullets, the extra length (aka less powder capacity) practically negates the benefeits. That is, of course, if you can deal with the recoil associated with pushing a barn door shaped bullet to the same ballistic performance.

A couple of cautions about Taylor KO and Momentum versus KE.

The KE of a typical rifle bullet is more than 100 times the recoil energy of the rifle firing it. Yet the momentum of the recoiling rifle is about 150%-200% greater than for the bullet it fired (because the gas blasting from the barrel accounts for almost half of the forward momentum of a cartridge discharge). Which predicts lethality better? KE, which shows that a rifle bullet is about 100 times more lethal than the rifle that fires it? Or Momentum, which shows that the recoiling rifle is about twice as deadly as a rifle bullet?

Also, the Taylor KO is twice as high for a thrown baseball than it is for a .470 Nitro Express.

KE won't predict lethality accurately, because you can maximize or minimize the potential for a given projectile to kill quickly by changing numerous important variables. But KE still is a lot better predictor than momentum or TKO.

You ain't kiddin'..

Might be a good idea to have your retinas epoxied in place before the first shot..

Just sayin'..

You got a problem with "look, turn your head, and yank...er, squeeze that popsicle stick"?

"point blank range"...

There's the friggin' problem.

Get a decent barrel sight (think ladder variant - Buffalo Arms makes a very fine one), regulate the load to it, and learn to use it.

Load a decent BC slug (400+ grains) in the .45-70 case now that you've lengthened the throat and action to have zero feeding problems, and go forth to slay stuff at range "point blank" can't even begin to contemplate.

jwp475,

When my bullet hits its prey I like the kinetic energy to be transfered first into deformation energy leading to a higher energy within the animal in the form of pressure.

I also like the energy and the momentum to be transfered as much as possible to prey and not off in the dirt somewhere beyond the prey. [/quote]


The problem is that a bullet strike is an "inelastic collision" which energy is mostly transformed in other forms of energy. The idea that this vast amount of "kinetic energy" is transfered is incorrect and is a BS myth that gets continualy perpetuated.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is correct.



It depends. If the bullet stops in the animal all kinetic energy has been transfered to either other forms of energy within the animal or the kinetic energy of the animal. Its called the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

If the bullet fully penetrates the animal, then any remaining KE after it exits is wasted (it is eventually transfered to the dirt like I mentioned before). The amount of energy that was transfered to the animal is equal to the KE of the projectile entering the animal minus the KE of the projectile leaving the animal.

A 500 gr solid bullet with a KE of 4700 ft-lbs with penetrate deeper (not shed KE as fast) than a 300 gr HP bullet with the same KE for two reasons. One is the greater sectional density. Two is the construction of the bullet and the fact that it does not expand as much. Seeing as how at 3000 ft-lbs my 300 gr HP's fully penetrate, why would I use a 500 gr in the .45-90? Remember I am hunting deer.

I have only made this conversion to increase the range and the knockdown power at those ranges of my rifle. The 500 grain bullet at equal power definitely has it place in use against charging large game and I have not argued against that point at all.

Your argument that KE means "dick" is completely false and you are doing a disservice to the shooting community by preaching that jibberish.

It is all about how much KE is transfered to the animal that matters. And yes bullet weight, caliber, and construction completely determine the rate at which KE is transfered to the animal which determines the penetration, but the KE is what you are starting with. It provides the energy to enable all that bullet expansion, penetration, fragmentation, hydroshock, etc. aka, the stuff that actually kills the animal.

I feel I could argue this all day long and not make any impression on you, so can we just accept that we have two different views on the importance of KE. For those that are impressionable I would like to explain that I am a mechanical engineer, I regularly use the laws of thermodynamics, and I am very confident that I am right on this one.



I am already all setup to compensate for drop at very long ranges, just now the range beyond which I need to compensate is further out. Its just nice to have one less thing to think about during a fleeting moment of opportunity.

-JR

Again you missed the point, the bullet stoping in the animal is a near perfevt inelastic collision and therefore "energy transforms into mastly thermal energy and little "energy" transfer takes place. "Energy Transform" is a BS Myth

The simultaneous vaporization of bullet and prairie pooch and the ensuing red mist remind me of something. And I surely can't say energy transfer isn't foremost.

There is an untraceable small amount of energy transfer, but the fact reamins that is not the foremost of what happens. Newtons 3 laws of motion deal with momentum, momentum transfers and acceleration, not energy transfers, Newtons 3 laws of motion govern all collisions. In a lastic collision "energy" is transfered as the colliding bodies remain in motion. No motion, no "energy transfer". A Deer is not accelerated with a bullet impact

Not the entire animal. I'm sure one might see another side of things if they were to view a high speed photo capture of the impact though. And for sure if one could see the slow-mo view of the internals.

Admittedly, I hardly buy into the concept as being a useful means for killing big game. Cutting, shredding, and breaking seem so much more useful; I won't waste any time worrying about how energy is "used" in such processes.

There is indeed a small amount of energy transfer, since a bullet strike is not a perfect inelastic collison, but this is a small amount and totaly untraceable. Unimportant in any calculation.

I agree that energy is a poor indicator of therminal performance

You defeat your own argument. The higher BC slugs may start slower, but they retain more velocity down range, shoot flatter, and deliver more energy.

Knowing, and not guessing, never fails, and I'd suggest you start knowing at some point.

A couple of things, JR.

First, I assume you meant Accurate 2460. If so, QL shows a max charge of that at 64 grains and 32k PSI (the max spec for the .45-70). And, velocity is only estimated at 2260, NOT 2660 fps (which is what you'd need t propel a 300 grain bullet out with a ME of 4700). BTW - that's with the case lengthened to 2.4" and the COAL set at 2.85", out of a 26" barrel.

So, I'll assume that you're loading WAY over max. That, or your math is off.

But, JFSAG, let's assume that you could chuck a 300 grain .458" JHP at 2660. BC of the Hornady version is 0.197, so let's use that as a basis.

A quick look at JBM shows (for a 5" vital zone) a 241 yard zero, and 280 yard MPBR. Retained energy at 300 is 1477 ft/lbs, and you're at -2.7MOA from your zero. At 350, you're down to 1200 ft/lbs, and at -5.4MOA. 400 yards, you've got 988 ft/lbs, and you're -8.6MOA

Assuming the same pressure required to get you to 2660 via the 2.4" case, and using the 2.1" case to acheive the same COAL of 2.85" with an RCBS 45-405 cast to 425 grains (standard, in QL), it will have a nominal BC of about .303. Let's use that...

Initial starting velocity would be somewhere around 2225. Zero range is 221 yards, with an MPBR of 260 yards. 20 whole yards difference in favor of the 300 grain slug. Hmmm... Oh, btw - the energy level would be the same.

Retained energy at 300 is 2140 ft/lbs, and drop is -4.0MOA. At 350, it's retaining 1868 ft/lbs, and at -6.9MOA... 400, still 1635 ft/lbs, and -10.1MOA.

Start them both on even zero range footing by zeroing at 230 yards (10 yards close for your 300; 10 yards long for the 425), and they are dead even on trajectory, with the 425 carrying considerably more energy, momentum, and mass at any range.

Oh, and that RCBS slug is not even that good for BC; there are considerably better...

Damned facts, anyway.

Of course, getting back into the realm of maximum sanity, Nosler 5th shows a maximum load (under their "strong actions only" heading for the .45-70) of 53.0 grains of RL-7 under their 300 grain JSP/Partition. QL gives that a pressure estimate of 40kPSI.

Let's play there, shall we?

Extrapolating out the same 40k MAX pressure whilst extending the case to 2.4" for a COAL of 2.85", you can run the same RL-7 up HYPOTHETICALLY to 61.0 grains. Velocity estimate there is 2430 fps, with ME of 3940 ft/lbs. With an estimated 300 grain bullet BC of an even .200, you have a 260 yard MPBR and a zero range of 225 yards. At 250 yards, you're retaining 1495 ft/lbs.

Use a 425 grain bullet at a nominal .300 BC (easily done, or bested), load to the same COAL, and HYPOTHETICAL pressure of 40k in the 2.1" case, and you're at 2030 fps, with an ME of 3890 ft/lbs. You have a zero range of 205 yards, and an MPBR of 240 yards (again, that amazing 20 yard difference...). At 250 yards, you're at 1995 ft/lbs.

Even by claiming the MPBR and energy numbers as a justification to try to hot rod the .45-70 "extended" that you're running, the numbers themselves show otherwise as to the best option.

A 300 grain bullet in a 45-70 is a choice, but never the best choice

Is this Lee24 or Oldman1942? Your rifle, your medical bill, the 1895 IS NOT RATED for those kinds of pressures! Glad i ain't yer insurance company.

I WANT VIDEO of the 1st shot!

Oh, the JHP inside of 100 is just NASTY on whitetails.

But, for anything else... esp. when any "range" is considered, no, it ain't; regardless of whether you prescribe to MPBR, energy, momentum, drop... it just fails to carry the mail the way a heavier, higher BC slug can and does.

a 357 revolver kills deer well also... The 45-70 has much more to offer IMHO

Yep, but I guess I just don't "get" what a 300 gr. Partition from the plain-jane 45-70 won't kill on this side of the pond. If that won't do the job, a 425 Piledriver Jr. (or similar cast load) certainly would.

George

I don't have a burning desire to change my 45.70s at all.
They have worked wonderfully well as is, but if you do, have fun and post a report of what you find.

The 300gr Partitions have been fine for 2 Cow Elk so far, but I'm typically hunting in the thick stuff at archery range. 405gr rem have been fine too.

Foot Pounds of Energy ? Yawn, get close and place your shot, use your F.P.E. to carry them out!

That Piledriver Jr. is a helluva bullet.

I shoot for about 50k psi. Crazy right? I've gone past that even. I once accidentally loaded 62 grains of RL-10x into a batch of 2.6 COL .45-70 using sierra 300 HPs. Being the foolish redneck that I am and risking my beautiful 1895 cowboy I decided to shoot them. I loaded the gun in the lead sled and shot it with a string a couple times. The gun didn't blow so I kept the loads. Eventually the loads began tweaking the lever so I got rid of them and bought a new lever.

At the time I didn't have QL so I had no idea what kind of pressures I was at. Once I bought QL I plugged it in and saw that it estimated that I was above 60k psi. Needless to say I have trimmed it back and shoot for about 50k psi starting 10% low and using the chrony/QL as my feedback to estimate the pressures I'm at.

VAnimrod,

I plan on cooking up all sorts of loads to for the 2.85 COL. One that I particularly am interested in seeing how it performs is the .458 Hornady Lever-lution. They have a great BC and should really be able to reach out there. I have to admit, the first time I used their factory .47-70 leverlution rounds I was really afraid the magazine was gonna blow up.

FYI,
On a side note pertaining to the tweaked lever mentioned above. I purchased a Wild West Guns big loop lever this past year and it appears to be stronger than the factory lever. I appears to be a higher grade of steel and completely heat treated (the factory lever is just heat treated at the tip). One sign of its strength is the fact that if you hold it by the tip and tap it with something it rings like a bell (more so than the factory lever).

50k PSI?

Wow...

The level of dumbphuckitude around these parts is becoming rather incredible.

Well, have at it... you rocket-scientist you... Keep bending parts under pressure and let us know how that eventually turns out.

Sound eqates to strength how? That's right it doesn't

Also, I sure this has been mentioned somewhere on this board before but the .450 Marlin SAAMI MAP is 43,500 psi and the 1895 shoots those just fine. At 50k psi I haven't had any issues with the gun, but I caution that if you do that it is clearly at your own risk. And don't blame me if something happens.

Oh, the gummy tipped Hornady 325 grain bullet has a WHOPPING BC of .230.

Yippee... that'll make all the difference. Not.

Oh, and the Marlin lever (which is part of the LOCKING MECHANISM) was bending BECAUSE YOUR STUPID ASS WAS WAY OVER PRESSURE!

You're damned luck it bent, and didn't just shear.

Don't worry, though... that harder, more brittle temper lever from Wild West won't bend... it'll shear. Take a guess what happens if/when that sheers off? Want to hazard a guess where the bolt goes?

Moron...

All this, to gain, at best 20 friggin' yards on MPBR.

Last time I checked, the standard .45-70 and .45-90 BP loads did one HELLUVA job killing critters up through the size of grizzly and bison, at MUCH lower pressures and velocities, but the shooters then didn't have their heads up their collective asses, used heavy, high BC bullets, and used the damned sights calibrated to the trajectory.

Of course, wtf did they know, right?

This guy knows his leverguns and pushing the '95 action to 50,000 PSI on a continual basis is lowering the life of your Marlin by quite abit.



Jayco

No, but we'll certainly laugh at your dumb ass when something DOES happen to you.

FWIW, you're the only idiot wanting to hotrod the .45-70/.45-90 to levels that rifle isn't designed for.

Also, have you ever though about the fact that the BRASS isn't designed for those pressures, either?

No, of course not...

Yep. I can't say eating an 1895 bolt via an overload locking failure is high on my list of "want to do" things.

Actually, Winchester brass,the thinnest of 45-70 brass,was tested by George Weber at Hodgdons to 70,000 and they just fell out of the SAAMI barrel.Brass/Primers won't tell you when your getting to high in pressure..

The action is the first to go in a marlin.The man I quoted tested 1-Marlin and two Win '94's to destruction seeing if they would handle the 62-65,000 PSI of the 454 Casull.The Marlin was the first to go with less than 20 rounds with the Winchester next at somewhere around 40 rounds in the 60-62,000 PSI range...

If one wants more than the 45-70/450 Marlin can do,buy a 458 Win Mag or have the action beefed by a pro.

Jayco

When you figure he's using .45-90 brass, that might make something of a difference.

Who did you quote, btw?

I was loading to 50k in the .45-70 with no problem. The lever tweaked above 60k and yes it was wildly stupid. But my face was not behind the bolt because I do know that the locking block and lever are the most likely points of failure on Marlins.

A benefit of the longer COL of the .45-90 is that I can now dial the pressures back and still get better performance. It'll achieve well over 4000 ft-lbs at the .450 marlin MAP of 43.5k psi.

He goes by Buck Elliot...



And here is the link to that quote and 3 more follow ups in that section(Mechanics and repair) of levergunlovers.com

http://www.levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?f=111&t=2798

Jayco

After about 20 shots above 60k psi just like Mr Elliot says the lever on my Marlin wouldn't click shut indicating that it had deformed. A new lever fixed it.

Clearly the lever/locking block is the fuseable link and like someone previously said does not inspire confidence. On the other hand it was somewhat reassuring that the lever indicted something was wrong before any catastrophic bolt through face type of failure. Whether or not that is is how it would always happen I cannot be sure.

In my experience in dealing with steel and presure for wel over 30 years, rest assured that will not always be the case, thus the MAP of 43,500, but let's not let the facts stand in the way

I must have editing my previous post to say that while you were typing this, but yes I agree.

-JR

Loads tested (!) no higher than 35.000 psi.

The .45-70 Government needs no further attention.

Jayco

The .45-70 never let me down. I never had anything not drop on the spot. I guess I just wanted to tinker. I could always go back to shooting .45-70 through the .45-90 if I want.

In my original post I forget what powder I said, but I meant to say Accurate 2520.

Here are some .45-90 loads at 43,500 psi:

.458 Hornady 300 HP, 74.66 grains of Accurate 2495, 2600 fps

Barnes 400 FNSP, 60.09 gr of accurate 2495, 2167 fps

And for the penetration junkies:

450 Barnes Banded Solid, 52.92 gr of BL-C2, 1884 fps


The numbers above show that the .45-90 can only match the .458 Win with a 300 grain so for those that have no use for 300 grain bullets it is not a valid comparison.

BTW the empty case capacity I am using is 88 grains of water for .45-90

Or load it down to that performance level. I've always been leary of shooting cartridges whose brass is too short for the chamber.

Keep pressures to no more than 43 K psi in the Marlin!!!!



You want 50 K? Get a #1 45-70 or better yet a 458 or a 458 Lott.