For awhile now I've been curious of the .375 bullet, but to be honest (and a little embarrassed), i haven't bought one because i was a bit worried about the recoil. After talking to multiple members who have and use 375 HH mags ive decided that it won't be too bad. I have a M70 Extreme Weather in 338 win mag and am not bothered by its recoil too much and most guys say the 375 is similar, if not better, than the 338 winny in the recoil department.

Anyway, I've narrowed it down to 4 rifles. My favorite rifles are my Kimber Montana's and Model 70's. Of the four i listed which would you choose, and ehy? Thanks ahead fellas!
* Kimber Talkeetna - 375 H&H mag ~$1,700
* Winchester M70 Alaskan stainless laminate - 375 H&H mag ~$1,300
* Ruger M77 Alaskan stainless & synthetic - 375 Ruger ~$1,000
* Kimber Caprivi - 375 H&H mag ~ $2,500 (least likely but its sooo purdy!)

FWIW I MUCH rather shoot a .375 H&H than a .338 Win...the recoil is more user freindly...

I have had 7 rifles in .375H&H, have 2 now and 13 in .338WM, have 6 now, my impression is that the .338WM "kicks" LESS then the old "ouch and ouch". However, they are both quite easy to learn to shoot well and both are quite accurate, with NP handloads.

From your list, my choice, hands down, would be the Mod. 70 Alaskan and then, I would proceed to customize it a bit, to have a 4+1 synthetic stocked rifle for all seasons and all reasons.

Yeah i think ill be selling the EW 338 winny and putting the money towards a 375. My hunting buddy has been bugging me since i bought it to sell it to him so ill send it packing. I have another .338 anyway, a Montana in 338 federal which will basically do what the mag will within 250 yards but without being able to shoot the heavy bullets. I like the 200 grain federal trophy copper loads anyway.

The two im really trying to decide between are the M70 and the Talkeetna. I think I'm going to end up with the talkeetna in 375 because Winchester has the Cabelas special edition (50th anniversary i believe) M70 supergrade in 458 win mag and if work is busy this coming season (concrete work) ill probably pick one of them up too. That will just be a safe queen though

I'd get the Winchester and then upgrade the stock. You'll be in the same ball park as the Kimber but it'll have that personal touch. Or just leave it as is and spend the extra 400$ towards glass

three seventy six

375 Ruger; bombproof; only way to go. It's going to bury the 375 H&H.

Im going to take a wild guess and say you're going to take a little heat for that one!

+1, make mine the Winchester model 70 too....

lol!; just my way of poking the old bears on this site.

Really, the Ruger comes with a 20" barrel, iron sights, CRF action and ugly, but very functional stock.

all this shooting a cartridge in a standard magnum action, faster and more efficient than the old "geezer" H&H.

Really? easy choice.

that's a bunch of marketing bs. any seasoned rifleman will cycle the bolt on a M70 equally as fast as a Ruger M77 to cite two examples of actions comfortably housing the H&H and the 375R respectively.

however, does this also mean the same rifleman will cycle the same M70 bolt faster if the rifle is chambered in 375R?

Much ado about nothing.

Until you get somewhere important and there's no ammo,if you need it....and empty brass is availble somewhere rather obscure(I've yet to a see any despite hanging in some rather busy gunstores.....Maybe in Alaska? I dunno...

I wonder about the "geezer" stuff,since the 375 Ruger derives from the 30 and 35 Newton, which predated the H&H hull by a few years. I wonder....who are the "geezers"?

Other than the Ruger,30/06-length actions by Remington and Winchester are simply H&H length actions with the guts blocked off...only the boxes are 06 length, and even a Ruger can be easily converted to H&H length as Phil Shoemaker and Bill Atkinson proved....Sure, to the "over the counter" stiff he is gonna stuff Ruger cases in a Ruger rifle and think he's working with an 06 length action...especially if his arms are short and he ignores the obvious.

I guess the new definition of "efficiency" is providing a larger,fatter case that goes a bit faster,and call it "efficiency".... thought it worked the other way around? And slab sided cases loaded to higher pressures are not as good as tapered ones under tough conditions(maybe theoretical up to a point but facts is facts)

The notion that the Americans "know" as much as the Brits about designing DG cartridges is laughable....the American definition of "better" being "blow them out straight,pour the coal to them,lets get the most velocity from the smallest case, and don't worry about the pressure"!

But Americans don't really have any dangerous game to deal with either...not really unless you count rut crazed whitetails and little black bears....

I don't see the Ruger case(good as it may be)overtaking the Holland any time soon.....some folks will believe anything.

Which 375? I'm surprised this is even a "question".

B.S. - Never Happen...................

REALLY - H&H all the way................

Hate to admit it, but I agree with you...

Others will disagree, but to me the recoil of .338/.340 mags is more bone jarring than the .375 H&H. I guess it's all in one's perception and it's a personal thing, no doubt. My .338 Win Mag and .340 Wby both went down the road. I have a .375 SS Classic M-70, barrel cut to 21" with NECG sights. It still wears the factory Tupperware stock. The next upgrade will be an Echols Legend and maybe Cerakote if I get tired of the SS look. To me, this gun is more pleasant to shoot than the .33 cal mags. My .33 is a .338-284.

DF

"I don't see the Ruger case(good as it may be)overtaking the Holland any time soon.....some folks will believe anything."

and some folks will hug outdated technology because of nostalgia not function or performance. No dangerous game in North America, you say? Really? Ask Phil Shoemaker about that.

the British heyday of DG cartridges and African colonialism is over; let it go.

The 375R is here to stay and will continue to gain acceptance and popularity...

Curious but do you fellas feel that the 338 and the 375 bump same if the rigs are built the same? Or do you feel that most feel this way cause many of the 375's out there are heavy?

Thx
Dober

Mark: I dont really know how to quantify it, but the kick of a .338 is more 'abrupt' and sharp. Similar to the difference ( does that make sense?) between a .300 Win Mag and a .300 H&H mag.
I attribute it to the sloping shoulders on the H&H cartridges, though I have no basis in fact...or it could just be that its better to get kicked by a true classic. Kinda like getting a kiss on the cheek from a woman. Would you prefer Sofia Vergara to do it, or your Aunt Sophie?

.375's may be heavier, generally, than .33 mags.

I think a lot of this is a function of higher velocity causing more abrupt recoil. The heavier, slower projectiles seem to push more and jolt less. For example, I don't find the .500 NE that objectionable. A Merkel double weighing 10#'s gives a big push, not that much "jolt". A .300 Wby with heavy bullets tends to jolt, the .340 Wby, even more so.

I guess it's what one likes and personal preference based on experience. As they say, one man's trash is another man's treasure...

DF

the British heyday of DG carts is over? is this a serious statement? African colonialism may be over but the importance of British DG cart development cannot be overstated and its impact is at work today. only a misinformed fool would think otherwise. the 375R offers nothing so far as I can see in the field to make the change worthwhile even if the package it comes in is small and handy. an H&H can be built up into a lively package as well, I can certainly attest to this fact with my own H&H. it is also a fact the 375R is factory loaded to most of its potential while the H&H can be loaded up quite a bit if desired and will match if not outdo the Ruger round.

I meant the heydey of when they were on the leading edge of DG cartridge development, not referring to those calibers still in use.

375R still offers potential for improvement via reloading OR if one doesn't reload, factory ammo is set to go....

375HH; you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig....

I have a 375R African. I've owned a couple H&H's. I bought the Ruger not because I thought it was better or outperformed the H&H, but because I really liked the rifle. IMO, it's a lot of rifle for the $$

fine. what cartridge development have we seen that did not somehow come from the Brits or the Teutonics about 100 years ago?

the 375 H&H a pig? to the contrary, she's a long leggy blond while the 375 Ruger is the drunken chick one finds at last call. no comparison.

well, I guess we could start with the 6 PPC which was derived from a russian case. currently the most accurate benchrest round in use..........

should we continue?

thought we were talking about DG carts here?

shall we continue?

you didn't specify that;

you did when you spoke of the British heyday being past and when the discussion centered around the 375 bore.

I think you quantifyed it just right, as these are my same impressions. I've sold 3 338WM and now only have the 375H&H. It's more of a push than a punch imo.

To the OP, whichever has the best stock design, the metal work should all be very similar.

Edited to add - haven't seen Aunt Sophie, but just to be safe, and enternally blissed, I'm going with Sofia Vergara. Sometimes you don't need complete information to make a good choice.

no, you did.

"fine. what cartridge development have we seen that did not somehow come from the Brits or the Teutonics about 100 years ago?"

I don't know what I did but mostly have no disagreement with that. Ingwe just expressed my sentiments exactly, thats all.

wasn't this just about the 375 or not?

sorry, I was responding to bluefish's desparate attempt to rekindle the dying flame of the British empire...........

Thanks for that. It took me so long to type a response I hadn't caught that banter.

I'm done. We could debate this forever. 375 H&H was once King; no argument there but it's been outmoded by better options. It is the length it is so it could enough cordite "stick" powder to push the .375 bullet that it does; not because it was the best design.

IT's still a good round; but the available rifles it's now chambered in are more expensive than what you need to pay to get the same performance in a better case.

My friend I wholeheartedly disagree! Were it indeed outmoded as a design why are there so many relied upon cartridges extant which owe their very existence to it, and further which are agreed upon as 1st class cartridges? The 416 Rem Mag, the 458 Win Mag and the 458 Lott to name but three.

Any M70 can be chambered in the 375 H&H as the action length is the same in the Classic series whether 270 338 or 375. it matters not.

and do some research - there exist threads here where posters are discussing feeding and ejection issues with their 375 and 416 rugers. in a properly tuned action I suspect it happens less with the 375 due to its design which causes it to canter in slightly toward the feed ramp ensuring smooth feeding.

for the moment can you at least tell what makes the ruger design "better" as you say and what criteria you use to arrive at your conclusion?

have to do some work but will check for a response later. i'm certainly enjoying the conversation.

.375 Ruger fanboys never fail to amaze me.

Please! Pitch this garbage somewhere else!

You can call names and make fun of those older than you but if you think you're fooling anybody with this crap, forget it....

...a company regurgitates a design 99 years old,(30 newton) necks it 375,and suddenly everything else, time proven and battle worn,is rendered to the bone yard by the 21st Century crowd who thinks its "new" and therefor, better. I swear on here if it wasn't invented in the last 24 hours,the youngsters on here think its' obsolete!

The 300 WSM comes to mind as well....that design is only about 50-60 years old.If you think the 375 Ruger is "new" your cartridge history knowledge needs some bonin' up....hell its' only a few thou larger than the old 35 Newton! Same/same!

I suppose under your logic we ought to scrap the 470 NE,416 Rigby,the 404 Jeffrey, and the 450-400 as well?

Yeah I know brown bear are dangerous ....I also know few will see them, and relatively fewer will ever hunt them.

The Brits have forgotten more about what makes a DG cartridge/rifle tick than most Americans will ever know,you among them....

Brown bear are only dangerous if you let them get close....I know the 375H&H made short work of two of them for me,so they didn't get close enough....

krummarine how far did yours go after getting whacked with the Ruger?

Superior to the 375H&H?..... What a riot. You really have to stop making stuff up...

Regardless of any advantage (real or theoretical) the newer .375's may have, the original H&H has always got the job done and always will. We shooters like to "tweak" things and manufacturers need "new" things to sell. I would the the original H&H and never look back. If it ain't broke, don' fix it.

Wow Bob, you couldn't have picked a better round than the 35Newton to hold up. I would have one in a minute if brass was easy to get like 300WM. The 470 NE, 416 Rigby, 404 Jeffrey, they're still among the first choices for African work.

I agree with Bob on H&H's. One would be hard pressed to find a ctg. that feeds and cycles slicker than an old H&H, both .300 and .375. And they're not bad performers, either one of them.

DF

My two .375R's feed and eject like buttah.....no worries there. As to the rest of it, I guess we can agree to disagree. Case design? Shorter, wider powder column burns as fast or faster and more uniformly; it's why the short mags work well, and the 6 PPC sets records.

BobinNH; I can appreciate your passion for the old girl; and no, I don't want to scrap any of those cartridges but I also don't own any of them; there's no need to with the 375R.

Oh, and the only 338 caliber I own is the 338 RCM

Welcome to 2012 and may the sun never set on the British Empire.

My 20 year old often reminds me it's 2012. The age of get chit for free and not have to work for it, entitlement era for sure.....Also alright to marry your same sex friend and think god doesn't exist. I guess it's alright to believe a short mag is superior to the old tried and true too...

The Great and never Late 375 Holland And Holland Magnum.

Gunner

One day I went out to fire my first 375, thinking I'd suffer through 4 or 5 rounds and try to get it close enough to hunt with. I shot all 34 rounds I had with me and was wanting more! And I'm the guy that HATED my 300 magnums recoil.

Be sure to clutch 20 rounds or so against your heart when you're buried; it'll be that many less dinosaurs for us to deal with.

I have a Kimberl Caprivi in .375 and couldn't be more pleased with it.

For half the price, a Winchester Model 70 Safari shoots and functions extremely well. It just isn't as pretty.

A Sako 85 Kodiak is a good alternative as well, and is priced between the Kimberly and the Winchester.

Geez! Everybody is entitle to an opinion, but it doesn't mean your right, although it may be right for you. I own a 375R and love it, and while I agree that it has its advantages(in my opinion), at this point in time they absolutely do not outweigh the benefits of ammo availability and possibly the most proven platform for a DG cartridge that can be reliably shot by damn near anyone. I am currently in the market for an H&H and when I have it, I will most likely enjoy it as much as the Ruger.

Also, you are right to say that the Brits have forgotten more about DG RIFLES than we ever knew, but I wouldn't necessarily apply that to cartridges. The Brits are the absolute masters when it comes to doubles and if I am ever privileged enough to own a 375 double, it will most definitely be a H&H flanged.

The delusions of youth ...slobbering over a 99 year old design pulled out of mothballs by some marketing genius,and calling it "new" or "better".FYI I likely had one of the first Ruger Africans in 375Ruger available in the new England area,the news was barely out before I had mine....nice rifle and cartridge but held zero advantage over a 375H&H,since I had been building lightweight H&H's for about 30 years at that point(only dummies build 375H&H's weighing more than 9#'s,about the weight of that African,scoped.My 375 weighs 8 pounds on the nose).It lasted about a year until I figured out it was not really worth it.

Suddenly, the kids know more than the thousands(millions) who have turned a H&H on BG animals instead of talking about it...

After you've been at this game long enough one of the "truths" you will "discover" (if you can get past the brain-fogging affects of testosterone)is that there are finite limits to what you can feed a manually operated bolt gun;and the overwhelming majority of stuff proclaimed "new" was already done 50-100 years ago by your predecessors.

Older,more experienced people know this and don't fall for every pitch leveled at us by some con man with a "new" cartridge.So when you grow up and get over taking gratuitous backslaps at older folks(and cartridges)you will realize one thing....we are smarter than you,know,and have done,more stuff.

THAT, should be a "sticky" at the head of every forum section on this site!

As always, Bob, you nailed it and the factual truth of your comments should enlighten a few who could greatly benefit thereby but, in this year of Our Lord, 2012, welllllll.......

One of the best posts I have ever read on "The Campfire"!

Very well said, Sir. I don't agree with everything you wrote, but I have to say, that is one of the best posts I've ever read on this board.

Way to take it like a man...Bob gets his point across very well and has the experience to back it up. One thing I've learned by being here is cartirdge choice means almost nill, it's the marksman behind the trigger that makes all the difference in the world. It's also alright to have an open mind when it comes to choosing a cartridge as well...

They can harvest any good parts I may have left for others, then throw my ass in the smelter with all of my old dinosaur guns, I'll happily live out the hereafter forged in a chunk of old gun steel and walnut ash.

Gunner

Bob is known to wax eloquent from time to time.

DF

True: He's one of my favorite writers, but don't let him know....

You know I'll keep that quiet...

Although I've told him such on several occasions...

DF

The difference between the 375 H&H and the .375 Ruger are almost identical to the differences between the 300 H&H and the .300 Win Mag.

Alaskans are voting with their pocket books and the Ruger is currently outselling the ancient H&H by a wide margin and a number of astute African PH's are also discovering the benefits of the Ruger as well.

And when I get a spare ZG47 it will make the transition to .375 Ruger.

thank you for weighing in, Mr. Shoemaker. As someone who has repeatedly, "been there, done that", I value your opinion greatly on this board.

BobinNH; you're a good writer, but that doesn't mean your points are valid. You can cling to your old beliefs to your hearts content but don't be afraid to grasp modern technology and design.

I see Bob's point as being to what end?

Did you ever tell us exactly what makes the ruger design so good as a hunting round? Short, fat powder column with an efficient burn rate fine. How much more efficient than the H&H? How much more efficient is this in the field and how shall we measure this and, equally important, could hunters tell the difference? I suspect not.

So, we again round back to the point which is to what end all this?

Which 375 is mostly about personal preference and ammunition availability. Apparently, for now, 375 Ruger ammo in Africa is uncommon. That situation will improve over time.

I wonder, just how much the available rifles, in type and cost, influence this trend in purchasing? I think that the solid, ugly, but, highly effective and functional Ruger Alaskan for a "workin' man's" price has and will have a LOT to do with this.

I would be happy, here in BC, working alone in the mountains, for extended periods, with either round in a rifle modded to my specs. and I suspect that most here who have shot both, will tend to feel much the same.

krummarine thanks for the advise. I will try to remember it.let me repeat...I had one already...I got rid of it, failing to be mesmerized by the "advantages"...

Why don't you tell me what advantages it holds for me?

I would not have engaged you to the extent that I did except that I thought you were a bit depracating towards older folks, and older cartridges under the mistaken belief that, because you recently "discovered" the 375 Ruger,that it was somehow something "new" and technologically superior, which it clearly ain't....but this seems to have zipped right over your l'il ole noggin'.....which...to me...by now,isn't coming as much of a surprise.

I was merely pointing out to you ( or trying to), that it is most assuredly not "new" and is based on a design fully as old as the H&H case itself.This seems hard for you to grasp...

It really isn't my fault that you do not know this.So to feign superior intellect because you are using a "newer" cartridge,and proclaim the 375H&H as ready for the bone yard in the face of the 375 Ruger because it's "new" technology,is not only intellectually dishonest, it is downright ....hilarious.

And the notion the H&H needs vindication from me or anyone else is equally amusing

That extra 100-150 fps in velocity that you seem to proclaim as setting it apart from the old derelict H&H cartridge is easily achieved by simply blowing the old Holland case out to 375AI or 375 Weatherby....both of which I played with likely before you were born.(not that the extree velocity matters a whit in terminal performance.Ask a few million animals).....and with that as a given,the 375 Ruger holds no mystique for me.You may be mesmerized by it....all I can do is stifle a yawn...

I have no doubt, as Phil Shoemaker says, that they sell a bunch of 375 Rugers in Alaska;the rifles are cheap,they work forever,are bomb proof and reliable,and the cartridge is a good one(although hardly singular and unique to any degree).See above.But I am still willing to bet a beer that there are far more 375H&H's in Africa and Alaska combined, than there are 375 Rugers.

And yet I know of one well known brown bear outfitter who(if memory serves)had D'Arcy Echols build him a splendid M70 outfitted with a peep sight for use in Alaska.....it was not chambered for the 375Ruger....it was the 375 H&H.

I seem to recall that Darcy built one 375 Ruger and had the devils time getting it to feed,although because D'Arcy is so really good, he got it done....

Anyway I wish you the best of luck with your 375 Ruger and hope it alleviates your handicap....it's a terrible burden moving the bolt a few fractions of an inch further to the rear with the Holland case.....most normal people don't find this a terrible ordeal

The day may come when the Ruger overtakes the H&H cartridge in widespread use....but it isn't gonna happen in your lifetime.

Between the rifles listed and nostalgia aside, I would go with the Ruger Alaskan. I spent quite a bit of money to have a .375 H&H built on a Mauser that basically matched what Ruger introduced as a factory rifle a few years later. I love my Mauser and am not planning to buy a .375 Ruger, but given the choice today, I would save some dollars for a hunt and go Ruger. The Ruger package, including the more compact cartridge, is just a nicer hunting rifle than factory H&Hs.

Given that American hunters seem to be using the Ruger cartridge, I expect any ammo concerns will correct itself with a little time. On the other hand, if the nostalgia of hunting with an old cartridge is REALLY important to you, you may want to go H&H.

Bob, i had an H&H, went to Africa with it and took ten PG with eleven shots. It weighed 8.5 lbs as aimed, was accurate, effective, and I loved it. Got home and decided to do some changing around with my other safe residents which involved trading/selling some off including the H&H and a semi-custom 340 Wby.

But I soon realized that I missed a bigger, longer range chambering that I had in the 340. The new 250-TTSX 375 bullet put me back to looking 375 again but without the bill of a semi-custom as I'm a lefty and I didn't care for the size, and heft of the CZ. Thus I came to the Ruger African in a lefty, had the barrelled- action glass-bedded, the trigger worked, and had an extra "recoil crossbar" added. Then ordered a McM for it.

Like in talking cartridges, in anesthesia you learn a lot of theoretical stuff the practical ramifications of which you rarely see in practice. That's probably the case here too. The H&H's legacy will always be there and if the best the Ruger ever does is just equal the H&H out of the blocks, that's pretty good. Can't go wrong with either one which really means the rifle's the thing. Which means the fit, function, weight and likability of it for the hunter is much more significant than any differences between these two cartridges. Just the view from here anyway.

Ayup, exactly and I have to compliment Bob on his humour and knowledge of the facts of this issue.

I prefer my .338WM and 9.3x62 rigs to any of the .375s and am not about to rush out, as several I know did, buy a Ruger Alaskan in .375R. and then, after about 20 rounds fired, trade or sell it for a couple of reasons.

This sort of weekend gack is lots of fun, but, I will bet that the .375H&H is still killing game and being debated when all of us are the "dust to which thou shalt return"!

George I hear you and don't recall saying the cartridge is no good,nor that it doesn't offer people more choices...if it didn't look good to me, I would not have bought one myself.

As it turns out I simply did not need the "new" technology....getting a light fast handling 375H&H is no more difficult than screwing a light tube(#4) to an action and sticking it in a FG stock....I did it 30+ years ago,and can't help it if it took the factories 30+ years to catch up.

I simply find it amusing when some young guy gets on here, and starts lecturing everyone about the "advancements"of the "new technology",proclaims it "superior",and the points to a 100 year old case design as "proof"....

You mean we are the old guys here?

You know he wasn't talking about me ...But I do like the slick as snot feeding H&H. I'll just leave it at that...

No disrespect meant to anyone on this board; young or old. Especially BobinNH; he articulates his points in such a way as to preclude much argument and I admire that.

Another gentleman started this post asking what 375 to buy and a torrent of replies leaned towards the 375HH; a fine, proven round, as I have stipulated but certainly, not the only, nor in my opinion the best in terms of efficiency or velocity.

I own two 375R's; one is a custom Ruger built for me by a talented gunsmith in NC and another is a stock Alaskan that I just picked up from another good guy on this board. they both shoot, feed and cycle with no problems; can't understand an expert like Darcy having problems; I also used to have a push feed model built on a Vanguard action and it had zero issues as well. I sold it to a guy who plans to take it to Africa next year.

BobinNH: just because the 375R originated with an older case, doesn't mean it's not "new" New design, better propellents, and certainly better bullets are used than when that original case came about.

Here's to cold beer and cartridge discussions; hope they are both around for a long time.

Haha! Yeah!!

Only thing is some of the "old guys" have had 8 pound(scoped)375's,for over 30 years(A Ruger African with scope weighs 9 pounds. Like I said,I had one),and have been pushing 250 gr Bitterroots and other 250's at 2900+ fps,out of them for the same time frame without a hitch.Those oldtimers kurmarine like to throw digs at were building light 375's with wood stocks back in the 50's....guys like Shelhammer and Biesen built them,and they weighed about 9 pounds on the button.just like the Ruger Hawkeye.

It has been maybe twenty years since a pal and I figured out that 250 load shoots just as flat to 400 yards as a 340 with a 210 Partition(actual shooting with our rifles).

When the Ruger cartridge and rifle came out I tought..."Well thats pretty neat...it will do a bit better than the Holland and the rifle is well built and designed....about what we've been building for 3 decades".

But just because its commonly available today to the masses at a cheap price, doesn't mean its "better"....its just more "available".

George below is a PM I received from a member here who does not post,and edited to protect his identity,and delete general conversation....The load he was using in the 375H&H involved RL15 and the 250 gr TTSX.His rifle was a lightweight Sako.I thought you'd find it interesting.

..in any event if there is anything deficient,antiquated, or outdated about the on game performance of the 375H&H in this instance,that can be materially exceeded by the 375 Ruger, I would like to know what that is....I would expect result from the Ruger to be the same.

And BTW I did say the H&H data in the Barnes manual, seemed fine to me.



"......I'm getting amazing accuracty and tragectory with these loads. I've shot one elk with this combo. It was a long, long shot at about a 30-40 degree down angle, which helped. I think the shot was 500+ yards, because my laser range finder couldn't read it, and it was easily double the 200 yards I normally shoot at the range. Foruntately, I had a bolder in front of me to rest on, so I held at the top of her back and squeezed the trigger on my Sako 75. The sound 'Whack', like the sound of a baseball being hit in the majors was almost as impressive as the rifle's report, and it was over.

The shot wasn't perfect. I hit her a little high and through the shoulder. The entrance was 1/2" as you'd expect, but the exit was massive (fist size). Both shoulders were smashed and bone fragments went out the exit wound. The off side leg/shoulder was so bad that I didn't even bother packing it out - all blood shot. She went right down and that was it - not even a step.

Do you think the data in the Barnes book for Reloader 15 is accurate? They list 77gr max for the 270gr bullet and 80.5gr max for the 235gr bullet. I'm thinking they swapped the .375 Ruger data with the .375 H&H data by accident because the Ruger cartridge under performs and has lower charges than the H&H in their manual.

Thanks again for your time and advice....."

Phil-this is just me but I'll hazard a guess that it's more about the price point and the package than it is about the round. Thoughts?

Personally I like the package that the 77/375 Ruger has to offer but it's very hard for me to find a factory 375 that I'd even remotely consider toting as it comes from the factory. The 700 XCR is the only exception to this that I can think of.

Thx
Dober

Can't help specifically as my pick is not on your list, the ZKK-602.

Thanks Bob. Yes, of particular interest is the Barnes listing your correspondent mentioned--a max of 77 grains of R15 for a 270 grainer. I can tell you I worked up to 73 grs of R15 in my Ruger under the 260-gr Accubd and that was as close to the firewall as I care to be--faint ejector extrusion and a stubborn bolt; it was too hot for the 250-gr TTSX too, tens grains less but just as long a shank or perhaps a bit longer with the same 'ol signs. For others that read this, I would suspect that load listing until proven otherwise and the usual "work up slowly."

That said I enivision these portable 375s of any species (though I'm not certain what he meant about the "Ruger under performs" comment) very good at long range like mentioned and even better today with these sleek 250- and 260- and up- bullets. I am planning a spring spot 'n stalk mountain bear hunt next year and am considering taking the Ruger.

yea, QL shows a 270 gr TSX over 77 gr RE 15 to yield 2950 fps @ 82K+ psi from a 24" H&H.

Alliant lists 71 grains and Speer 260 gr but doesn't list pressures on their web site

I'm not too concrened about the load data....I shoot 77 gr with the 250 for over 2900 fps.My Krieger will not take those Barnes charges and no sense trying.But that doesn't mean nothing will....

Last year,a pal worked up to 77 gr RL15 with the 270TSX in a 25" pre 64 M70 barrel for a bit under 2800 fps.I sat at the chronograph and watched the process with him. The rifle went to BC last year for grizzly,elk and mule deer(Got a grizz and mule deer with it).....I am not surprised since pre 64 M70 375 barrels are notorious for being "over sized" through the grooves and taking heavier charges. We have miked a few.

Other barrels will take lower charges....another reason I can't look at things like Quick Load and believe it.It simply is not universally applicable across the board.

The point that might be gleaned in all this discussion above,is that the new "magic" cases appearing now and then,resurected from the past, with a rush of publicity gets everybody all goosy and reaching for the check books,but the "real" magic is in the propellants and the bullets we have today.Not to say any of this is bad,just not as revolutionary as some think.

Bob, you mention Shelhammer here. I was given an Oct 1954 American Rifleman which has an article by John George about " Three Little Rifles "...one of which was his 375 H&H by Shelhammer. Barrel was cut down to 22 inches and turned down to reduce weight. Lyman Alaskan scope ( something he used effectively during WW2). Shelhammer stock with a shorter than normal butt to be able to work the bolt from the shoulder. Also, it was not equipped with a recoil pad, but rather a solid Neidner model. Rifle action was a Winchester mod 70. He called it a "featherweight" in the article. I don't believe he gave a precise weight for the piece.

Another short and light weight 375 H&H was built by Fred Wells on an 8MM Mauser bring back from WW2. It had a 20 inch tube and a Lyman 2x scope. Apparently it was his loaner for people that didn't have a 375 but needed one. They nicknamed it the "Beast". It had much dangerous game to it's credit. Read about it here... Boatman blog

Dave: You nailed it....John George's lightweight 375H&H by Shelhammer was precisely the rifle I was refering to.... He had a second one in 300H&H built pretty much the same way.

Another noteworthy guy who built a similar rifle was John Jobson of Sports Afield.He had Al Biesen turn down the barrel of a M70 375 and cut it off to 23",(likely copying George's rifle)and had it stocked by Biesen as well.The finished product was 9 pounds(the weight of 375 Ruger African). Jobson used it both here in North America and in Tanzania to take buffalo and elephant among other animals.

This was common practice because even back then folks found that M70's could be on the heavy side,and many were turned down and lightened by savy guys.The Ruger African is a faithful reproduction of those rifles and the biggest factor in the weight of the rifle is the contour of the barrel,and the slim dimensions of the stock.the action has next to nothing to do with it.

Current Winchester 375's are still too damned heavy; no need for it at all and if you end up with a heavy 375H&H its your owned damned fault.

My Echols stocked 375 is 9lbs on the nose all up as they say and it is quite comfortable to shoot and carry.

I agree about most 375s being too heavy including the Win model 70s. Perhaps this is due to the traditional view among American shooters that the 375s with their African success are BIG cartridges and should be in BIG guns. My experience which is not very deep with the 375 unless I include shooting a 340 for twenty years is that for me a range of 7.75-8.5 lbs max is just fine.

Even my R African could have a slimmer barrel for my tastes. I'm hoping my McM stock will shave a few ounces more.

George,

My McM McWoody stocked Hawkeye African weighs 9 lb., all up with scope, rings, and sling. The McM stock, with magnum fill, actually added a few ounces to the overall weight.

The McMillan stock fits me so well that there is a noticeable decrease in felt recoil over the factory wood handle, which split at the tang after 80 rounds (and also after being bedded, I might add). A trigger job to reduce pull to a creep-free 3 lb. has helped turn this rifle into my idea of an ideal .375!

Nice Bighorn.

Well, I guess that's what mine will look like too which is very nice. I'm a little disappointed about the overall weight which I guess mine will be close to too, but not enough to fret about it. Right now with a Leupy 4x aboard it's just over 8.5 but I am undecided also as to keeping this scope on it. About anything else will just add more calories.

IIRC, the weight of my rifle, with the wood handle, scope and rings, and no sling, was just a little over 8.5 lb. With the new McM, and the Montana sling, the weight is 9 lb. That sling is thick leather, and adds a few ounces.
There is a noticeable difference in recoil management between the two stocks, probably more due to the Pachmayr Decellerator 1" pad than a few more ounces of weight.
There was also a tendency with the wood stock to allow the bolt handle to rap my index finger knuckle quite smartly when shooting from the bench. The McM completely eliminated that problem.
I will say that, after carrying this rifle around for three days in the thornbush country of Argentina for water buffalo this August, I never noticed the weight!

I agree that Mod. 70s in .375H&H are too heavy and in several other chamberings, as well, IMO. I have packed P-64-70s in .375 H&H and .338WM many, many long, hard miles in the mountains of BC-AB and in northern Alberta's gooey muskeg (YUK).

So, I finally sold my nice original .375s and only kept one, which is in a Rimrock handle with a matching .300H&H and I almost never shoot. I have the little shorty on a P-64 action, 20" sts Classic tube, etc, etc, and THAT is my idea of a working .375H&H. I do not load as hot as I might, get 2400 fps. with 300 NPs at the muzzle and sub-moa grouping.

This, is my final purpose-built "working rifle" and it really performs. Built from salvaged parts, it did not cost very much, BUT, it works like it did and if I ding it, I do not care....if, I ding one of my nice original .338s or the .375/300 set, I get a little irate and say stuff that, long ago, the nuns at St. Joseph's would sorta "tune" me for..........

A light .375 H&H, 23" bbl., to 8.75-9.25 lbs, ready to rock is probably as close to the perfect all-around one rifle as we will ever see in our remaining lifetimes. If, one prefers the Ruger, hey, it's all good and I might well trade into an African in .375 Ruger, would for sure if it was stainless, just because I really enjoy shooting medium magnums.

I understand that Winchester has the same barrel contour for all their "big" safari type guns. With the .375 H&H, there is a lot more steel left in the barrel than with a .485 Win Mag. Thus, the .375's seem to be barrel heavy at 24". With the sight holes drilled, most smiths don't want to turn down such a barrel, siting tool chatter, etc. from the holes. And, turning a barrel down is a lot of work unless one has expensive machinery designed for that task. Cutting the barrel to 21" will miss the screw holes and can help a lot, but those guns are still pretty beefy. To me, Winchester barrels are accurate and I hate to scrap one. But, a custom build may be the only way to achieve "perfection".

DF

You are right that the price point and package certainly affect how well a rifle and cartridge are accepted. That is one of the main reasons H&H rifles built on cheaper Mauser bolt actions became noticed in 1912. Then as the performance became known the H&H round gained a legion of loyal fans. A few of the most rabid posting here.
So did the 300 H&H, but a other rounds were developed that either duplicated or surpassed the ancient, overly long H&H case, and could be built on even cheaper and more readily available actions, the demand for the longer case was no longer there.
Just as the .300 H&H still has a few loyal fans, I am sure the 375 H&H will be around for a long time, but hunters will vote with their wallets and my prediction is that the 375 Ruger will eventually overshadow the .375 H&H just as the .300 Win beat out the .300H&H. Not because of any ballistic advantages - which are minimal - but because you can get the same performance in a smaller, cheaper package.

And when it comes to dangerous game, nostalgia isn't worth a bucket of warm spit, while performance is and, although a slightly longer bolt throw makes no difference on the range, when your life is at stake and you are under stress even minor advantages count.

Not on the OPs current list, but shot a new to me Whitworth today. Recoil was a very pleasant surprise even with an old hard pad on it. Only shot 9 rounds but having great accuracy out of the gate with RL15 and 270 Hornady spitzer. Rifle was an old friend's gun and so happy to be in possession of it.

The old saying is "When in Rome, do as the Roman"s do".

If you can afford a trip to Hunt in Africa owning a 375 H&H is a comparative minor expense. A decent used one is $100 USD. Or just use the 375 H&H that your PH has for his clients.

If you can afford both Alaska and Africa, then two different 375's are affordable.

Got any decent used 375s you want to part with for a $100?

Put me down for two........

He probably left off a zero.

I'd take a truck load at $100...

DF

for $100 I bet you could even sell Rugers to H&H fans

Speaking of which, I see a used Ruger African in .375R for sale here in Canada,and I am curious, has anyone EVER REALLY found that these rifles will/do not cycle perfectly if ran hard and fast in the Ruger chambering?

Also, does anyone make/sell a 4+1 replacement mag box in steel for these? I think that I would love one so modded and in a nice Micky std. fill handle, to a all-in weight of 9ish lbs.

Now, that's a good one, Phil. And very true, without a doubt.

With the right "bottom line", "major" differences and hard opinions may just fade away...

DF

Kute,

Yes. I had a Ruger Alaskan that feed extremely well, although I believe the NP3 I had the bolt coated with was a contributing factor.

Stocked it in a McMillan and it was a nice rifle. However, it only held three down and I simply didn't like the Ruger safety. Since it wouldn't be replacing my .375 H&H's, down the road it went.

Recently picked up a CRF SS M70 .375 H&H action, so next year I'll be building yet another!

FOst,

What's your plan for that one?

Curious about your choices and options.

DF

Light weight build.

PT&G aluminum obernsdorf BM, light contour SS Lilja 20.5" (no iron sites), and Echols Edge McMillan stock. Cerakote the external metal graphite black, and bolt and internals with NP3. Talley LW rings and a Leupold VX-6 1-6x24mm with illum. German #4.

I have that scope on a Mauser/Shilen 9.3x62 build. Hard to beat, especially for the price. It's not that far behind the Zeiss Victory 1.5-6 I got from you, which is on a top of the line, AHR 9.3x62 that I traded for. And the VX-6 retail is about half the Victory retail.

I didn't think McM recommends a big magnum in an Edge fill stock. I guess you could get one pillared and Steel Bed the lug.

What's your goal weight, all up?

DF

HCR has built quite a few .375 H&H with McMillan Edge stocks. Proper bedding is key.

Fully loaded with ammunition it should be right at or just under 8.5lbs

...a top of the line AHR 9,3x62..., now, THAT is my idea of a top notch serious BC working/hunting rifle.

I have had the considerable pleasure of dealing with Wayne by phone and have the utmost respect for him, his products and manner of doing business. I think that he offers a great value on some of the most useful and good looking rifles currently made and the old 9,3x62 is certainly one helluva round for about any game I can think of here in BC, at least.

I have, for some weird reason, this long held desire for a good, British style .404 Jeffery-I need one about as much as I need to vote "Liberal", but, ya know how it is.........

I might yet order such a rifle from Wayne, imported by Clay of Prophet River, in Alberta and just give those bull mosquitoes maxy hell!

That will be one nice rifle!

Speaking of:

Very, very nice, I would be happy to give it a nice home and show it some fabulous BC mountain scenery, whenever you get "tired" of looking after it!

Thanks, it is a nice handling gun, ballancing very well. The Zeiss Victory with FFP reticle is a very nice addition. I haven't hunted with it yet, am still working up loads. It's accurate as most 9.3x62's seem to be.

DF

DF.....................................................................................................










































YOU SUCK!!!

I hope it shoots as good as it looks you lucky bastid....I need to work on some loads for mine as well. I'd feel better if it just shot ragged holes to make up for its uglieness

I've had Wayne build me a handful of rifles. I can assure you DF's 9.3x62mm shoots as good as it looks!

Here's another 9.3x62, a customized FN 98/Shilen with Canjar trigger in a B&C Medalist, skim bedded and free floated. It's wearing a 6500 Elite 2.5-16x40 for load development and can swap out for the VX-6 1-6x24, Illuminated #4 for more serious work. Not as flashy but a good, solid working rig.

Very nice, I'll bet that is a shooter too.

I think that we discussed the building of that one here a few months ago?

I have two original Brno ZG-47s, with Satterlee safeties, one in a Micky Edge, MKX, the other going into a Rimrock from Borden and an original, very cherry Type B 1937 Obie with EAWs, and a Leupy 4x. plus a Lyman bolt peep, if I ever bother to install it.

I also have a CZ-550 in 9.3x62 and it is going into one of the Mickys that AHR used to use, plus one of his triggers, safeties and Martini-styled Recknagel banded ramp and "peep" rear sight.

I know that this is a "bit" excessive, but.......I have culled almost all my guns, other than my customized CRF hunting rifles and some of these came from trading off a lot of stuff that had sat in my safes for 15-25 years and was never fired. Here,in BC, rifles like this are actually useful, but, stuff like the fancy Kimber of Oregon Mod. 82 and lots of others I got rid of just seem to sit and are never used, so, I decided to just keep the types of guns I really relate to.

I would put irons on that, but, I am slightly more conservative than Attila the Hun, so, that's just my preference.

Yeah, we did go thru the building of the Mauser some time back.

It is accurate, but from early testing I think the AHR has the edge on tight groups. Time will tell, for sure. Guess I have to admit that maybe Wayne and company can build a more accurate rifle than I can.

I like the idea of thinning the gun safe and having fewer, but better guns, ones that actually get used. I'm not much on storing a stable of safe queens. Let someone else enjoy those guns.

DF

Yup, I won't even keep "better" guns for extended periods, so, sent my minty Wm. Powell English sxs down the road, a Browning BSS-Sidlock 20-28", unfired, an AFA XXV-SL-20 and more than a dozen other fine rifles, dumped my Dakota 76's lovely walnut stock and just kept the rifles I actually shoot or will use as time passes.

It does get to be more trouble with insurance and storage and maintainance then one get's enjoyment, but, it is a learning curve and I enjoyed seeking out and then finding a way to buy a lot of nice pieces....then, just lost interest and am slowly getting rid of most of my guns. But, I will not part with the 9,3s or my .338WM P-64s, nothing works for me in BC like these.

What loads are you using in your FN and AHR, I have been happy with Johnny B's forula with Ramshot Big Game in all of mine and most groups cut the moa standard. I also find this a very easy round to shoot, bit less thump than my .338s and considerably less than my .375s.

I had just one 270 gr. load to sight them in. I have a good selection of bullets and all powders mentioned for that round, just not enough time during the holiday season. I'll get into load development after hunting season and will post my data.

I have JB's loads and posts on the Fire by others with good suggestions. I like the power of the 9.3x62 and the mild handling characteristics of such a potent round. My hunting buddy and I have been thinking about hunting Nilgai in South Texas and Ibex in New Mexico. I have other guns that would work for either, but think the 9.3 would be an interesting round to use. In the meantime, I will practice on Louisiana Whitetails and hogs.

I don't see much info on long range 9.3's, but with the 250 NAB's, the data out to 4-500 yds. looks pretty good. The B.C. on that bullet isn't bad. So, who knows, may be something to pursue.

DF

I would really like to try that and will by next April, plus, I would like to try a 270 gr. in a premium bullet, perhaps, that one with the rings all up the shaft.

I tend to think that most of us are better served by building these "practical customs" on sound actions, your FN is one of the best and then loading to 2600-2700 fps and practicing a lot.

Right now, it is snowing like blazes and the roads are a disaster, so, driving to my club-range ain't gonna happen, but, some serious experiments with lighter, high BC bullets in many of my "medium bores" is first on my agenda when the snow clears.

I have one ZG-47 action left from a "beater" that I stripped and it was a 9,3x62.....I am thinking a 9.3x64 as a friend has one and it really is a performer and, it's "different".

It would be different, for sure, but didn't we have a Fire discussion earlier about the "64" not being that much of a bump up from the "62"? What's the scoop on that?

DF

DF, that is art work!

Thanks, George.

Now that I hijacked the .375 site to 9.3, time to take it back to the OP's heading. Here's my 21" recrowned .375 H&H M-70 SS Classic with NECG irons. It handles much better than the beefy 24" factory set up. I jerked the hot glue looking factory bedding out with pliars, Steel Bedded the lug. I drilled holes to capture the bedding as not much wants to stick to Tupperware. I honed and adjusted the New Haven trigger to a really nice 3#'s. It shoots great, as most .375's do. Down the road, maybe an Echols Legend...

DF

DF,

An Echol's stock will be an improvement. The ergo's are excellent, and helps tame the felt recoil and allows one to recover and be back on target a bit quicker.

Just my two pennies, but if it were me I would replace the bases and rings on your .375 H&H!

I had those already. I have Talley QD's on everything else, including my recently completed .404J on a SS Classic NH M-70. Those and the Legend are next phase upgrades.

DF

LOL... I need to check my posts! Obviously I meant for under $1000. Thanks for asking though. I do have a 9.3x 62 and a 375 H&H. I'd sell you the 375 for less than a Grand if you interested. Just PM me.

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