I would like to put one of these rifles together at some point. I've read that there is a point where things get noticeable more poignant on game, meaning large game react much more dramatically to impact. My question is, is that point a .423, or do you have to step up more to a .458 or so?

I was just thinking, and the .404 adds about double to the cost of entry. They .375 will push a 350 TSX to about 2300 fps while the 404 will push a 400 TSX about the same 2300 fps. I realize both could likely be pushed harder, but for comp sake, lets keep it as is. Would there be a noticeable difference in on game performace in the 404 vs the 375?

Aside from cost of entry, the 404 will also increase recoil about 25% in the same rifle.

So, is the 404 worth the extra cost in all regards? In my eyes, cool factor goes to the .404 for sure.

Another question I'm unsure of; will both rifles perform about the same out of a 24' tube, or will I need to go longer in a .375?

Chris

A 375 does not need a long tube- one of mine is a 24" Model 70 and 1 is a 21". I prefer the light weight 21" Mauser. I was also bitten by the 404 bug. I have a barreled action, a really nice blank, dies, several hundred bullets, and a box of loaded rounds. The cost of the stock is the only thing holding me back. Recoil is very mild on the 375 and I don't think the 404 would be too bad either.

Thanks for the input. I don't think the 404 would be brutal recoil wise, but I also don't see the point in adding 25% if there's not a benefit. In my mind, it sort of seems like a 30/06 with 200's compared to a 338 win. The 338 win is better, but is it needed?

What are you going to use it on? 404 is really a "tweener" both in action length and application. If you are worried about recoil, then in reality go lower.

I don't have anything planned for it honestly. At this stage in my life, I'm just wanting to put one together and play around with and have for later in life.

I would like to hunt buffalo at some point.

I'm not necessarily worried about recoil, but I like it to be justified performance wise if I increase it. Like you said 404 seems to be a tweener. Reports I've seen really have not led me to believe there's a noticeable difference until you step up to a 458 class.

I have had a couple of .375s, but now all I have in the way of a DG is a .404 Jeffery. I decided on the .404 rather than of one of the factory or wildcat .458s. I haven't had much time to play with the .404 yet, but so far I am liking it a lot. Part of that may be due to the fact that the .404 was built to my specifications. My .375s were factory rifles that ended being restocked and tweaked, but still not exactly what I would have liked.

I've had both .404J and .375 H&H rifles. Here's a link to my .404J build, which I posted earlier. After shoulder surgery, I sold the .404, kept the .375, also a SS M-70.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7846376/3

A good bit of .404J info.

DF

I have .375s and a .404. I really like the .404. I load it to about 2250 fps with 400 grain bullets. Recoil is tolerable and it carries a lot of punch in a portable rifle. Haven't shot anything with it yet, but am excited to try it.

The .404J can be pushed to equal the .416 Rem and .416 Rigby.

http://www.norma-usa.com/index.php/products/ammo/apha

Check out Norma ammo, using 450 gr. bullets in all three rounds. All three running at around 2,150 fps with 4,620 foot pounds.

And, it can be loaded with lighter bullets.

DF

I built a 404/375 based on D'arcy Echolas design. I wanted the larger bullet but didn't like all the extra smith time need to make the 404j fit and feed well. I have yet to put a lot of range time on the gun, but recoil doesn't seem to be much greater then a 375. I believe Echolas was getting similar speeds as stated above out of this cartridge. I haven't put my loads on a chrono yet. Cool thread I love hearing the different opinions and builds.

My thinking, the .375 H&H is probably more versatile for general use, the .404J a real good DG round for anything I could afford to shoot.

As I mentioned in the link, a real inexpensive way to have a very good .404J, is to get a NH M-70 in .375 and have it bored to .404J. You'd need a RUM box and some action work.

Slightly more expensive option, rebarrel a RUM donor.

DF

Thanks for the input. I've looked at the re-bore angle based on your input, but I'm not sure I want to go that route. You're looking $1200 BARE min, probably more like $1400-$1500.

You can get a MRC 404jeff for about $1600-$1700 that is meant to be a 404 rather than a retro fit job. Or, for about $2k a CZ 550.

I also stumbled across the 380 Howell which REALLY peaked my interest since I know at some point I'll buy something bigger than the 375, no matter how many times I tell myself I won't.

375 ammo is everywhere why would you go to rare 404J?

I would roll my own with either.

Right on but if your out hunting in Africa and by some accident you lose your 404 ammo do you think you would find some from your DG and group?

Maybe, maybe not. Prob, no. If I get to the point where I'm planning a DG, hunt, i plan to mail 2 separate packages of ammo and take 2 loads.

It's not just loaded ammo availability, its brass availability you should be concerned with. Having played the oddball game with a 350 Rigby and 500 Jefferey, I'm content to stick with rounds that use the belted case i.e. 375 H&H, 416 Rem, 458 Win and Lott. To me available brass and bullets is way cooler than esoteric chamberings.

Brass for the .404 Jeffery is available online from most of the usual suspects, as is ammo. It's all more expensive than .375 H&H components, though, if cost is an important factor for you.

For me the 416 Reminton is about perfect for a one rifle do it all cartridges in Africa

You're not the first to think that way. It does seem to be a neat round, .416R performance without the oversized action, etc., available in a nice package at a reasonable cost with the M-70.

To those who've been to Africa, what's the availability of ammo in the mentioned rounds?

DF

Dirt: I think the issue of "weird" ammo is a tempest in a teapot. It can and does happen, but when you talk to someone like Craig Boddington, with over 100 African Safaris under his belt, the ONLY time I am aware he had ammo issues was with a 318 WR. Anyway, if this is an issue, of all the calibers listed, the 375 H&H is the only one you can find ammo without too much trouble. At least in Zim.

The missing ammo issue is overblown. In 95% of cases you could just use a camp rifle.

Sure it's available today, but in a year, 5 years, 10 years? Availability is a static situation. Again I've played the esoteric less common chambering game and given the choice between two rounds with essentially the same performance I'll go with the more common chambering.

Above .375 H&H, what's the most available?

DF

.458 Win Mag or .458 Lott,that would be my swag.

I assume that you meant to say that availability is fluid or subject to change--whatever. The .404 Jeffery has been around for 108 years and still has a devoted following. I doubt that it will disappear within the next 10 years, assuming that we are all still allowed to own firearms in 2026. I have used both it and the .375 H&H and I can assure you that they are not "essentially the same."

As Jorge said, the .375 H&H (technically a medium bore) is about the only cartridge mentioned for which ammo can be bought just about anywhere. That said, I ventured into a couple of gun stores in smaller towns in Africa that did not stock .375 H&H ammo--you had to order it. Why, I don't know, but they did have a good stock of .308 and .30-06 ammo as well as ammo for a few other European cartridges, including the .404 Jeffery.

I also know that I was the only one in camp that had brought a .375 H&H, so I was very glad that I had made it there with my own ammo.

If I decide to build another big bore rifle, it will probably be a .450 Howell--a wildcat that duplicates .458 Win ballistics at lower chamber pressures. I will be getting a chance to try one or two of those this weekend.

Blue and I compared loads, his 450 Howell and my 458. I was loading basically 77 grains of H335 and he was loading 77 grains of 3031. I haven't run mine over a chronograph but I can feel it when it goes off. That dangerous game rifle shoot this weekend was a hoot.

Here's an alternative if you decide on a 404. Although I have a custom P-64 M-70 404J on the way, this 404-375 Ruger is a very practical option and it produces modern 404 ballistics - 400 gn bullet at 2400 FPS +.

Easy to find brass, one-step forming and reliable, handy rifles.

Yep.

If I wanted a 404 Jeffery I'd build or buy one, stock up on brass and bullets and not play the what if games over maybe, by some chance, losing ammo on a trip to Africa.

Not Africa, but in NM, I hear the .460 Wby is a popular jackwabbit round. Have it on good authority, seen the evidence...

DF

Heard that also DF.

Probably works as well as a 20 gauge slug. I've done that a time or 3...

You can't go wrong with a 375 H&H. Shooting the new Woodleigh 350g HD soft points, penetration (and expansion) should be nothing short of spectacular. We shoot the factory Remington Safari Grade 300g A-Frames in ours and they are amazing also.

Unless elephant were the primary purpose I can't see doing better than the .375. Good for just about anything and ammo is available in most big game areas. I have heard that the 40+ calibers do have more authority but I doubt it would be a major step up until you get to .425 or 458 cartridges. And this only on Buffalo and larger game.

A .375 can be light enough to use as an all around rifle and is not too much for deer and hogs so it could get used more than a heavier more specialized rifle.

I did see ammo for the Jeffrey in the better shops in London, Windhoek and Johannesburg. But to me this is always a moot point.

On the other hand if I wanted a Jeffrey clone classic rifle it would be for the 404 cartridge.

Tar: You won't be "mailing" any ammunition to Africa.

Good to know.

and I agree:



Keep mind the 458 Lott rifle will accept 458 win mag rounds. ( Obviously Not the other way around) My CZ in Lott will reliably feed 458 win mag. If you have a gun built you might make that a requirement. The POI moves enough to definitely require re-zero.

If you start with a cz 505 magnum action, the 416 rigby is a another option. A big classic round, IMHO, that can still get it done. Or order a cz rigby from the custom shop in St Louis made to your specs. This should handle anything and not beat you up as much.