For long range hunting of deer size game with either of these two calibers, which is the better "go to" given the same muzzle velocity.?

I'm looking to keep recoil to a minimum, making the round as shooter friendly as possible and yet buck the wind as best as possible.

Give me some options.

Do you have rifles in those bore sizes, are are you skipping 6.5mm to be contrary?

Since you're assuming the same velocities then your answer lies in BC numbers.

Define your idea of long range. Are you in the reasonable camp of up to 450 yards or are you in the hail Mary camp of 600 yard shooting at unwounded game?

A little of both.
I really like the flexibility of being able to shoot sub 100 grain bullets for "some" applications, which obviously the 25's offer in both varmint and deer construction, and since the introduction of the little 6.8 has come on the scene the 270 has been gifted with the same.

Its the 400 - 500 yard deer killing end of things where I'm interested in bettering my options with these calibers.

+2

I own both. I have used the 270 for many more years (over 50) then the 25-06 (The one I have now for only 14 years) however and that means my kills with the 270 outnumber those from a 25-06 by a LOT so my comparison is not fare in every way.

But your question is specific. From what I have seen with my 25-06 I would say the best performance for a light kicking deer load was with the 100 grain TSX Barnes bullets, (about 1 MOA) but in my rifle the 110 grain Hornady Innerbond is a bit more accurate. (1/2 MOA) I can't tell the difference in the recoil but by the laws of physics the Barnes should kick a bit less. The smaller group size is irrelevant to anyone killing deer until they have the skills to shoot out past 500 yards anyway.

In one of my 270s I am using a 130 grain Nosler Partition and it's been SUPER deadly and I have shot a lot of deer and antelope with that bullet in the last 1/2 century all with zero complaints . In another one I shoot 150s and one I shoot with 160s.

But I will say that in 2 rifles of the same weight the 270 does kick a bit harder then the 25-06 even when the 25 is firing 120s and the 270 is firing 130s. So a 270 with a 130 is going to kick more then a 25-06 firing a 100 or 110. Both are wonderful shells for deer killing. So if recoil is a factor I would say go with the 25-06. Sure the 270 is more powerful. So what? The 25-06 if actually more powerful then it needs to be for deer, and using something even more powerful doesn't kill any better or any faster.

Of the 2 cartridges I use the 270 much more, but that's because I use mostly 150 and 160 grain bullets and the 270 covers the bases better, (deer antelope, bear, and elk) but there is no way around the argument that the 25-06 will do every bit as well for deer as a 270, and kick less in doing it.

Drop down to 6, 6.5, or 7 for starters....

At 400-500 yds, pick any pointed, boat-tailed bullet and learn how to hit stuff at 400-500 yds. There are more efficient choices in caliber, because of old standardized twist rates. That said, that isn't "long range" for cartridges based on the 308 case or the 30-06 case in standard 1:10 twists. At 400 and beyond, wind matters more than drop, because drop isn't an unknown variable.

Careful. Many people are far more accurate at 600 than a lot of us are at 350. Let’s not say something is a Hail Mary just because it is too far for you or me. Plenty of deer get wounded by people who never practice and take shots at your reasonable distances. Most people I know in real life have never practiced past 200 yards yet will shoot at a deer at 3-400 yards. Lots of guys practice at 1,000 yards and 500-600 yards would be a pretty easy shot for them.

Helping a friend load for a new Tikka 270WSM and I'm impressed with the Hornady 145 ELD-X. Price isn't exorbitant, either.

Under most field conditions in Wyoming where a hard gusty wind is changing direction 3 or more times on the way to 600 yards even the best shooters are taking a chance on wounding if they take the shot. I know it seems odd but I know some really good shooters and they all say wind is the limiting factor not range. Bullet performance becomes and issue also as velocities and energy drop. Even if you practice on a range or shooting at rocks out to 1000 yards that doesn't mean you will get first round vital hits, hence the "hail Mary" designation. Beyond that if you do make a hit at 600 yards if the animal does not drop right away finding it can be a pain in the arse. I hate to think of all the elk lost every year by people who think they have the skill to dope the wind at ranges even as close as 350 yards.

AGREED X2 don`t be fooled a .257 caliber shoots a long ways out too as does a .277 caliber

6mm creedmoor is the answer you are looking for.

With a Sierra Gamechanger or a Barnes LRX, it punches well above it’s recoil class.

In an area where wind is a factor, regardless of distance, you really need to start studying the ballistics tables for high BC bullets. The difference between say a 120 Partition or a 120 ELDX in the wind can be pretty amazing once you study your ballistics tables or programs...even at 350-500 yards the difference can be a surprising amount. The next thing you need is practice, practice, and a little more practice..... cartridge choice is several places down the list IMO but if it were me, I would go with the Hornady ELDX , Nosler Accubond, or a Barnes of your choice...

Bob

I’m with Sheister.

Get out and practice,practice, practice and then practice some more. Ballistics charts are one thing, but going out and seeing where your rifle/ load ACTUALLY hit at distance is often something else. About any rifle 6mm up will work just fine as long as you put the bullet where it belongs. I would also suggest a good range finder and an optic with turrets.... my personal favorite deer depredation permit rifle is a 6 Ackley with 70 BT’s. It doesn’t take a lot of power if you hit them right. Good luck, Ben.

Any fast-twist 6 really, the Creedmoor version just makes it easier without going custom. Berger 115s at 3000 (Hodgdon data StaBall 6.5) oughta work for deer, and lighter bullets for vermin.

I’d go for the old and true 270 win.
High BC 140 grain satisfy both speed and weight issues for me.
Imo The game changers are the Best bang for the buck. Cheap enough for ton of shooting at your ranges on paper and still good for hunting

The OP said deer size game and keep recoil to a minimum. It follows that a high bc 6mm is mo bettah.

About 2 decades ago, I lusted for a 6-284, I was more about velocity then, as opposed to B.C.

I currently have a LA Model 70 Classic which I have wanted to use as a donor.

What would be the best 6mm chambering given that platform?


My first guess would be the 6 mm Remington AI - But I am wide open to recommendations.

My 6 Ackley was also built for speed. 26” hart 12 twist. On rem 700 SA. It certainly is fast. 55BT would nudge 4300fps. I always wondered what it could’ve been on a long action and a fast twist barrel. But I built a 6x47 Lapua with an 8” twist 28” long. I love it. The Ackley is pretty hard on barrels. Had it set back once already and now load it down a fair amount. 55’s at 3900 and 70’s about 3600. If you’re already set up for the 6x284..... maybe just get a new barrel for that.

Ben

szihn said it all. I've use both being the 270 was my favorit cal the 25-06 was now the best with 100 gr bullets hardle no kick nice and accrate

To me he's not being contrary but maybe he just wants to prove a point. There is nothing magical about the number 6.5. And as for finding barrels with the tighter twist, look no farther than a custom barrel maker such as Shilen or Krieger. They will make you a barrel in any twist you want. And for the last ingredient in the pie, bullets. Both Berger and Matrix make heavy high BC bullets at least for the .270. I'm not sure about the .25s but I've heard there are some like 130 grain bullets for it. I don't know why Berger or Matrix hasn't made a 140-150 grain in .257. Maybe they have. If so, a .25-284, 25-06, or a .257 Weatherby would sling them out with the best of the .264s.

What's wrong with another 6mm-284 in a fast twist, with a long, minimum spec throat like the Creedmoor, so you can seat long bullets long?

I have been playing with a 243 AI a bit, and I've decided that a bit more would be better. If I do something like that again, it will either be on a 284 case, or on the AI'd 6mm case. The long neck on the 6mm case may be of benefit for the accurate shooting life of the leade. And I'd opt for a faster twist than 1:8. Bullets are only going to get longer and more streamlined.

What about 6/06?

Why? He already explained what he's doing and it requires a .257 and/or a .277 bore.
He want's to do something here rather than just follow the crowd.

I need to clarify, I "lusted for" the 6x284, but never pulled the trigger.

I still think it would be an excellent choice among the 6's but it's not the best feeding cartridge for my CRF Model 70... and I would like to utilize that platform.

I believe that the 6mm Rem A.I. has similar capacity {close enough anyway).


ONE MORE THING; Where would this cartridge find a suitable barrel length.?
I like the compactness of my 23" barrels, and I don't mind the 25 inch-er of my 35 Whelen.. so, what would be reasonable without sacrificing performance.?

Can I get the accuracy performance out of it.?

I have a rifle chambered in .250 Savage with a custom made Krieger 1:9 twist barrel. It's a shooter. I mostly shoot heavier bullets in it. I have shot 117 grains but my favorite is the Combined Technologies 110 grain Ballistic Tip. However, if I could find some heavier bullets I would give them a spin. I can shoot 120s in it but that's not a lot of gain over the 117. I want to find something like a 130 grain and give it a whirl. But that would be strictly for paper punching at long range. For hunting I'm different in that I don't believe in shooting at game animals beyond about 400 yards. You can tell me until you're blue in the face all the merits of that but I will still tell you that no matter what you do you can't guarantee a clean kill. Wind is your nemesis and always will be. Unless you have wind flags or a digital read out at the target you can't tell me that you will know wind dope at every shot at game. There's too much game that gets gut shot because of people trying to kill game at extreme ranges. Elevation has a mathematical solution. If you know your drops and your range you can make a shot for elevation. But throw in the wind and it gets iffy. Iffy is not ethical when shooting at game. That's why I will always put a limit on my shots. You can practice all you want but you can't overcome the wind correctly every time.

Paper never lies.

Even out to 400, if its blowing, I'm not shooting.

External ballistics isn't following a crowd, nor is it an opinion...

But long range to some means working up a load distance to others....

6 or 6.5 would simply provide more options with fewer penalties is all.

But this is 'Merica....

Paper never lies.

Even out to 400, if its blowing, I'm not shooting.

Me neither.

'Merica.!

Damn Straight, Greg.!

Ok, the OP ask about .25-06 and 270. I have had a few of each and still have a 270. Here is what I will say about these two rounds, IF you reload, that opens a lot more doors. IF you do not, factory bullet selection on the 25-06 is somewhat limited. The same can be said with the 270 in lighter weight bullets. The 270 has more options in 130 and up weight bullets but that will go against your recoil requirement.
Either will kill deer at the range you are asking about with no problem if you put a bullet in the proper location.
If someone were to tell me "I will buy you a new rifle (between these two cal.) I would go with the 270. Reasons 1) wider range of good bullets 2) I am like an earlier post, I have way more time behind a 270 than a 25-06 (guess you could say comfort level) 3) (assuming you don't reload) around here 270 ammo is everywhere and not so much with 25-06.
Now there are ways around recoil, 1) add weight to the gun 2) put a good recoil pad on 3) reduce the vel of the round 4) reduce the bullet weight 5) muzzle brake (a lot of people don't like them, but they can really help) 6) have the stock fitted to the shooter (it can make a big difference)

If you are open to other cal. I would look at 6-06 (based on your two other parent cases) or a 6.5-06 (once again based on your parent cases) but only if you reload. If you don't reload but are open to look at other cal, there are several 6 mm round that will do a fine job on deer at the ranges your looking for. There are several good bullets with high BC and also light weight bullets to plink/varmint hunt with. Same can be said about 6.5 but the bigger you go in cal. you start cutting away at lighter weight bullet options.

Good post. Took a while for clarity from the OP on what he was working with. Now that it's known, you nailed it.

If recoil reduction wasn't part of the plan, with a LA, I'd say 8 or 9" .270 without a doubt.

Simple as that.

Sometimes it appears the situation is beyond "people don't get it" and out into "people won't get it" territory.

If you don't want to go the easy way then don't put up weak rationalizations, just go with what you want to do because it's your project. I'm a 250 and 300 Savage shooter myself.

Not buying something because it's popular is about as dumb as buying something because it is, although at least popularity may may some practical basis.

Blessed is the hunter who's shot opportunities generally don't require much thought about BC, wind, or sight dialing, or who has the good sense to simply pass on stuff outside the range of his equipment or abilities.

This IS 'murica. You can pick and choose what you want. I mistakenly thought the OP wanted to prove a point that the .25-06 or .270 could do anything any other cartridge could do. I apologize for my tone here. Sometimes I get carried away. Hell, I'm old, LOL!


I agree with you 100% that you can do this a lot easier and cheaper with a 6mm, 6.5mm or even a 7mm because there's bullets and guns already on the shelf everywhere set up to do it. In those calibers it's a turn key deal. But that's not my goal to do what everybody else is doing.

I have wanted to build a long range .270 for about three years, just because I like to be different and not follow a crowd. It may not be the smartest move economically, but it scratches an itch. I still will go to hell swearing there's nothing magical about a 6.5 anything. If I wanted to follow the crowd I could go buy a Crudmoor of some flavor and shoot 600 yards with no problem (well with some practice).

But why would I do that? I won't shoot at game at 600+ and I'm not really a LR Paper Puncher (however I would be if I had a range big enough). If I build a LR .270 I will still limit shots at game to 300-400 yards. However, if I get the opportunity I'll wring it out on paper as far as I can see just to prove to everybody AND myself the .270 with the proper barrel twist and ammo can do it. It won't be a turn key or easy project but it will be a lot easier than it would have been 10 years back. And it will scratch an itch.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

Filaman (and all others),


Great posts... I'm enjoying this immensely.


Admittedly, I've been stepping this way, and that, thinking I needed the horsepower of the 25-06 and/or the 270 (of which I currently have of the latter and formerly had the 25-06 A.I. at one time) for the longer work. That 25-06 A.I. was a Hotrod and a Deer Slayer with its preferred 100 gr NPT and 115 gr NPT.

Early on someone said, "6 Creed."
Being my donor is LA, I honestly had not considered dropping down in bore size - BUT - I am a handloader, I have case forming experience - And I am liking the performance of what I am seeing with the 105's and 107's - and the options given in that caliber such as the 85 TTSX and the Partitioned and Bonded offerings as well. LOTS to Like.

And it clearly gets recoil down.


Without any other changes, seems it would be incredibly easy to neck down the 25-06 (or even the 270) to 6mm and run with it.

I really Like That Option.

The .240 Weatherby is the same thing as a 6mm-06 which is essentially what you're describing here albeit with belt. But necking down the .25-06 or .270 would do it without a belt. May be a good choice. Just be ready to buy more barrels. That's an overbore from hell and would be a barrel burner. Depending on how much you shoot you might be buying a barrel every year or so. But if you don't mind that it should be a very hot number.

Forget about the 85gr TTSX , run the numbers on the Barnes 95gr LRX. It’s an exceptional bullet.

358WSM,

If you're trying to keep recoil to a minimum for the purpose of not losing your sight picture during recoil, a 25-06 will bump too much and you will lose the picture unless you use a heavy barrel.

I've learned not to assume MOA loads at100 will hold within MOA at 400, so to see which rifle/load will actually group better at 400 or 500 is the only way to really know. My vote would be 140 grain .270

I’ve had great luck w 100ttsx out of my 257wby to 400 (not that’s long range by western standards)

I had the same conundrum a week ago. I have a gorgeous #1 and wanted it re-barreled to something different.
I have basically everything in 22-26 cal with fast twist barrels.
I could not decide between a 25 or a 27. I finally decided on the 25-06 Ackley Improved in the #1B profile.
Barrel is going to be 26" with a 1:7 twist. Should be here in November.








Can't wait, 131 gr BJ Ace bullets at 3100-3200 fps

The 6mm-06 is a simple option and takes advantage of the LA mag box. My 25" Bartlein 1:9 will push the 105 Berger at 3400 before maxing out. 3300 and change has been a comfortable place to run with good accuracy and brass life. I use a combination of .25-06 and .243 dies to neck down and size .25-06 brass. The berger has killed everything we sent it through (p dogs, coyotes, antelope, whitetails and mulies) from 100 to 500+. Farthest on deer sized game was 425 but I wouldn't hesitate to shoot farther if conditions were good.

Truth be told I wouldn't mind a bullet that held together a tad better when shooting anything bigger than antelope. The berger tends to stay inside on mule deer and bigger whitetails. Kills great but not much of a blood trail if you have one get out of sight. I may try the 95 LRX like was previously mentioned.

what is your load?

To get to 3300 I run 51.5g RL23, CCI 200, winchester cases, and 5 thou off the lands. I can't recall how much above that it took to get to 3400 but not much. H4831SC produced similar velocities but RL23 gave me a smaller ES and similar accuracy so I stuck with that.

A little caveat...

The builder that put it together tested it with Superformance powder. He gave me the load data which I duplicated with my lot of powder. Several blown primers and a locked up bolt later we concluded that his lot of Superformance was producing 100+ FPS less velocity than mine with the exact same charge!

cool thanks

Don't sleep on the .270 with a better bullet. Left the 140 Berger due to lack of availability and went to the 145 ELDX. Fantastic bullet in my rifle with RE-22 for over 3000fps and ridiculous accuracy.

I also find it extremely tolerant of jump, my rifle is over the 6000 round mark and the throat is toast but it just keeps shooting.

Ever priced 6-06 dies??

Higher n giraffe pussy!

Did the OP say ro 500 yards??

A 25-06 with a 117 Gameking or a 115 Ballistic Tip, seen those Gamekings work in the 400-500 yard range more than a few times on our Missouri whitetails.

That 115-117 shoots plenty flat and have more than enough energy at those ranges.


That being said give me a 6mm or 6AI with something in the 3300-3400 fps neighborhood and watch schitt die pretty quick.

Someone do a welfare check on Stick.

His absence from this thread is.....unusual.

Have Both, really like Both! Would run a 25-06 with a 24" barrel in a nice fitting average weight Rifle of your choice. I'd run my Sako AV with Nosler 115gr BTs. A great feild of view provided by shooting game on the lowest possible magnification you are comfortable with should help with calling your shot also. YMMV

At the ranges you've posted the 25-06 or 270 Win. would both be fine. I am really liking the 6mm AI and it will get very close to the velocity of the 6x284 or 6mm-06 with a little better barrel life and slightly less powder. I will probably hunt with one of these next season and the 257 Weatherby as well.

The 270 WSM has done really well for me too, I need to try it with some higher BC bullets at some point. Anything from the 6mm Creedmoor to the 270 Weatherby would all work, it is just a matter of what you want.

There are dreamers...and then there are shooters. And the guys who posted above on the reality of field positions and wind doping are shooters. The best wind dopers in competition usually have wind flags out to range, are generally shooting over somewhat even terrain. You start shooting in winds in rough broken terrain with the vagaries the terrain produces, updrafts, downdrafts, eddies...it becomes a crapshoot no matter a few points here or there with BC and velocity. You can buy all the gadgets, the finest optics, a benchrest quality rifle, have David Tubb calling your wind....you will wound game.

Nah we're doing fine as is.

Nah, he's good. He discovered "ping pong balls" and Simmons scopes. He'll be showing up soon to chew on everyone's ass who doesn't use them.

So, what is long range to you?

My 257 Roberts' load shoots 85 grain Nosler CT bullets at 3,525 FPS measured by my old chronograph. I have that sighted in 3" high at 150 yards. at 300 yards according to my shooter phone ap is .7" low, at 400 yards it's 9" low (1,094 Ft-lb energy and 2,407fps) at 500 yards it's 23.5" low, 2169 FPS and 888 ft-lb
A 270 with 130 grain E-tip: I have sighted in 2.1" high at 150 yards - the following is according to my phone ap
3100 FPS at muzzle; 300 yards it is -4" 2519 fps (1832 ft-lb); 400 yards - 15" 2342 fps (1583 ft-lb's); at 500 yards -32", 2172 fps and energy at 1362 ft-lb

Truth. The prc, treestand, foodplot crew fail to realize this, as most locales “outwest” during October and November are windier than a bastard, raining/snowing etc. folks nowadays would rather try to buy skill than actually hunt... funny stuff

Put me in this camp too. Either one will do nicely at ethical hunting ranges. If you want to punch paper at super long ranges (Anything over 600 yards) get a Crudmoor and have at it. But if you're shooting at game these two are just as good. In fact they may be better. No, neither one has a gazillon different bullets available but there's plenty to do what they were designed for, hunt at ethical ranges and kill game DRT.

I've tried to get rid of anything 257 or 277 over the years. I much prefer 264 or 284.

Bb

Yes, we really miss Mr. Six-Twat-Six himself . . . he could wax eloquently I'm sure . . .

358wsm..few ? if you dont mind.how far max range and where will you be doing most of your hunting.there are a few that have given you great advive.you can have a 5 grand custom rifle built for long range hunting with 3 grand optics.wind and conditions always terrain temperature all play a major role.the less distance the better.i have been hunting for 45 years and shooting benchrest for 25.99% of the people on this forum will try to help with wonderful intentions.im assuming your buying a factory rifle and i could be wrong.your original ? was 25 06 or 270.they will both work well within 400 yds.out to 450 in my opinion.depends as also stated on what grain and type of bullet.if you have any ? pm me.remember hunting and shooting targets are a different ballgame.rifle accuracy is obviously critical.

358wsm..few ? if you dont mind.how far max range and where will you be doing most of your hunting.there are a few that have given you great advive.you can have a 5 grand custom rifle built for long range hunting with 3 grand optics.wind and conditions always terrain temperature all play a major role.the less distance the better.i have been hunting for 45 years and shooting benchrest for 25.99% of the people on this forum will try to help with wonderful intentions.im assuming your buying a factory rifle and i could be wrong.your original ? was 25 06 or 270.they will both work well within 400 yds.out to 450 in my opinion.depends as also stated on what grain and type of bullet.if you have any ? pm me.remember hunting and shooting targets are a different ballgame.rifle accuracy is obviously critical.