gents,

I am building a 280AI for elk out to 500 yards. I'd like a recommendation on projectiles that perform well, have high BC/SD etc at that range.

please advise.

left to my own..... I'd use the Nosler ABLR in 175 gr, but I'm open to better recommendations from a more experienced crowd.

thank you,

180 scenar has been very effective launched at 2900 fps to 800 yards on elk, mule deer, and bears. I'd have no issues with 280ai at distance with it.

Kurt, what powder are you using to get 2,900? 24" bbl??

Phil, RL26 actually gets me a little higher but I throttled back a bit to 2900. 24" barrel.

A guy could get right there with H1000 but that was about max for it. It ran better at 2850 fps in my rifle with H1000.

I haven’t taken an elk with it yet but I’m using the 175 ABLR in my Mashburn. I don’t expect many issues.

The 180 Scenar is my back up. Kurt’s slayed enough beasts with it that I’d use it without a thought as well.

In the past I had and used 4 different 7MMs. A 7X57, a 280, a 7MM rem Mag and a 7Mm Weatherby mag. I killed game (including elk) with all 4. The bullets I had the best results with were the 160 and 175 grain Nosler Partitions. A flat base bullet is just fine for shots to 500. In fact, they are fine for farther then that.
For killing game from 15 yards to about 650, I doubt you could find any bullet that will truly beat the 2 Noslers I just mentioned. Place a lot more importance to the bullet's terminal performance then it's flight performance. 500 yards is not stretching either bullet from a 280.

As a side note, I killed my first elk in the mid 60s. 180 grain factory 300 Savage. I have killed elk most years since, and many years I killed several per season. In ALL the elk I have killed (I've lost count now) I have NEVER really needed to shoot one at 500 yards. Not even one.

So the truth is with a good 7MM like the 280 and a good bullet you are going to be well equipped. Trying to set yourself up for that one shot in 500 but ignoring the real world, (meaning the other 499 shots that are common) is not wise.

Any good bullet of 154 to 175 that holds together well and still expands is going to be fine for elk. When I was young, bonded bullets were super rare, but today they are pretty easy to get and so I'd say to look at any good bonded bullet of 150 gr or heavier weights, or the 2 Noslers I posted above, and you'll do just fine. "Elk bullets" are any bullet that expands well and doesn't break up badly. I have seen excellent results with bullets from round balls fired from flintlocks, to Keith and LBT cast handgun bullets and many good kills with full penetration from cartridges as small as a 243 and going up to a 460 G&A. As a hunter and guide I have seen good results many times with 6Mm and 25 cal bullets and I have seen poor results too, but I have seen poor results with the bigger calibers even more. That's simply because more people use them on elk then use 24s and 25s.

In my years guiding the 2 shells I have seen the most poor results from were the 7MM Rem Mag and the 300 Win mag. Why? #1 bad shooting and #2 poor choice of bullets.

In the last 50 years the 4 most common cartridges I have seen used by hunters in elk camps were the #1 the 30-06, #2, the 7MM mag, #3, the 270 and #4, the 300 Win Mag. Nearly all who use the 270 shoot 150 grain bullets. Nearly all who shoot the 30-06 shoot 180 and some 165s. Good kills with the 270s and the 30-06s are very common.

But far too many of the 7MM Mag and 300 Mag shooters used lighter bullets then they should, (lighter in weight and construction) Many were using bullets with jackets that were too thin, so break-ups were quite common. That is NOT a condemnation of either the 7mm Mags or any 300 mags for elk. Both are excellent cartridges to use for elk, but elk should be shot with bullets that will go clear through and go through in pretty straight lines.

So the reason I have seen more bad results with the 2 belted mags above are 2 fold;

#1. Numerically they are most common so both good and bad results are going to be seen more with them.

#2 Many hunters seem to fall for the lie that faster is always better, (It isn't always better!) so they drop weight and get higher velocities but often ended up with bullets that break up too much for good deep and straight penetration.

Used with correct bullets the 280 (A.I. or not) is all the elk gun you'll ever need if you know how to hunt at all. Use good tough bullets for elk and go forth with confidence.

Thanks. Now if I can just find some of those 180s.........

180 VLD or Scenar.

I have 175 ABLR'S and 168 ABLR's that I could let go. I think the 168's are more stream lined, they are longer at any rate. I have a fast twist 280AI and a couple 7mm RM's. They both shoot accurately in my stock 7mm RM Remington 700. I have not worked much with the other two.

Let me know what you need for the 175’s. Thank you!

BG,

I've got five boxes of 168gr LRX that I'll let go.

I use the 2855 Hornady 175 Grain RNSP but they are not making them anymore . I use them in 7x57 and 7-08 . If I didn't have a good supply of these I'd shoot the 139 or 150 GMX Hornady bullet .

For that type of shooting I’ve had best results with the 180 ELD, 162 AM, and 145 LRX. Haven’t played with the 180 Scenar yet.

I've killed a bunch of elk and mule deer with a 7mm RM with 168 Berger's going 2930 fps.

The only heavy bullet I have shot on game is the Sierra 175g btsp, penetration and expansion just works...I consider them partitions and 2900 does not suck hind tit.

I've done the same in my.280 Ackley at 2,820. Bedded a buck tnite and hope to let her get some in the AM with that load...

The 180 Berger hybrid is the best LR elk bullet out of a 7mm, IMHO. Heavier than I'd shoot in that size case though, you might be better served with the 168.

Billy Goat,

What twist rate are you putting in your new build? If you want to shoot the heavy low drag bullets you should go NO slower than 1 in 8.5" , 1 in 8" would be better.

I’d bet those would be shear terror in a big jugged 7mm!

Jordan, what are you using the 180 ELD with? Just wondering how they hold up on heavy game if you’ve used them. I remember reading 30338’s posts they were quite explosive.

I'm having a 7 SAUM built for similar applications and have several boxes of 180 Scenars on hand that I'll start loading with.

So far I’ve been shooting them from 7WSMs and 7RMs at 2930-2970 fps MV. I’ve posted this before, but probably the best example I have of stress-testing that bullet on heavy game, was when it entered the brisket of a large bull moose on a slightly quartering frontal shot at ~30 meters, penetrated about 4 feet, and exited near the last rib on the offside. The bullet didn’t hit any major bone, but penetration was impressive, none-the-less. So far, for me at least, they behave about like every other model of ELD-M I’ve used on game, which is about like an average heavy-for-caliber (high SD) tipped C&C. They expand and penetrate just fine as long as impact speed isn’t crazy. Even in the case of the bull moose example above, which is about as high an impact speed as I expect with an ELD, it penetrated very well and held together just fine.

For sure. That’s a pile of penetration. I have used the 212 ELD’s from an 06 and was quite impressed with the work they did. If they held up like that at that range I can see that being plenty for most anything.

Billy Goat: I use the wonderful Nosler 160 grain Partitions in my 7m/m Remington Magnum dedicated Elk Rifle.
Best of luck to you with whichever you choose.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I try to shoot the heaviest, highest BC bullet possible.........sometimes this does not always work out and I end up shooting the most accurate bullet. In my rifles this is the 160gr Accubond and as a bonus it works fantastic on every animal I have used it on

168gr Berger classic hunter over 7828ssc in my 280ai has been working for years now on elk, even a bit past that 500 mark.
See no reason to change.
Ymmv.

I’ll also just mention that I haven’t been able to see a difference in terminal performance between the various ELD-Ms and AMs that preceded them. I’ve also seen moderate damage and great penetration from the 7mm 162 AM on elk, deer, and moose.

Berger 175 Elite Hunter worked well for me on a bull elk out of a 7 SAUM this year. Muzzle velocity was just under 2,800, barrel has not sped up yet.

great question and sorry I didnt specify earlier. new pipe will be 1:8 twist for the heavies.

You’ll never regret an 8 twist 7mm.

It’ll turn the shorter, lighter bullets great as well.

Man you guys are causing me to want to build a long action 8 twist 26 inch barreled 7x57mm, 180 Horns at 2800 would be pretty cool from the old Warhorse, i like taking the little engines that could and see what they can do, my 6.5x55 Swede with 147 Horns at 2950 is a middleweight that punches like a light heavyweight, just shot a skunk with the damn thing at 502 yards Sat. morning!

My 7 SAUM I'm anxiously waiting for is a 1:8 Lilja...

That'll work, building it on a long action?

Kimber 8400 short/fat - was a 325 WSM...

The 168s ABLRs worked great out of my 1:9.5 24" 7 mag. It didn't like the 175s as much. Still toying with powders now.

Last elk I shot, which was a couple years ago, was at 433yds with a 180 Scenar out of a short actioned 7SAUM started at 2940fps. Exit was golfball through upper shoulder (steep uphill shot) and animal took half a step. Headed out soon with it again.

Yep. Hard to beat.

Good to hear - that's the exact combo I'm putting together for the same application.

JeffO did the same thing. If your .325 shot as well as his did before the conversion it's a pretty major mistake IMHO.

The 325 WSM shot well enough on occasion but not consistently so can't see a new barrel being a mistake.

That load will do fine based on what we've seen. Hard to catch a 180 Scenar.

What powder?

My 180 loads were way slower than that with R22. I might could have pushed it harder though. 24” barrel.

Thanks

From what I've been hearing, those velocities are obtainable with RE26 and similar powders...

RL 26 does outstanding in my 30-06 with 180 partitions (2900) and 7 mag 160 partitions (3200)

That would be pretty cool Gunner. That’d have some reach.

last weeks meat run with the 280 AI & Badlands Super Bulldozer 2 bullets


BADLANDS BULLETS
....

May be a fun deal Big B, my 24" barreled 7x57 spits 175 partitions and grand slams out at 2700 fps in old RP brass, with 2-3 more inches of barrel and RWS brass, 2800 with 180's seated long is a real possibility.

I've got a box of old timey Barnes 195's, must date back before men was wearing ear rings.

I've actually shot some of those old Barnes 195's Flint! Back in mid-80s, I tried them in a 24" BDL 7mm Rem Mag and the powders I had at the time (IMR 4350 and later H870) still gave me keyholes, ha. But I had to try them!

180 VLDs

What is your 6.5x55 load? I've got a stainless fluted tikka in the swede. I started working up a load for the 147 for it a few years ago but never got it quite shooting like I wanted. I was running RL26 and took it up to about 2900fps but groups were just over moa. I need to get back out and try it again. I only shot a few different loads.

I've recently taken the 180 to over 2500fps from an 18.5" 7-08. I had it shooting some great groups but the light fieldcraft keeps toasting scopes.

Bb

BB,

Laupa brass
147 eldm
H-1000, you can start at 48gr if you wish
BR2
COL 3.120" 0.015" off, [long action m-70]
Vel 2951 fps

I use a drop tube, it's a small pita but worth it to get to shoot with the 6.5 Creed, 6.5-284 and 6.5 PRC boys, the only one that can outrun me is the PRC, but that guy cant shoot very well so i'm all good.

I have a 7x7AI that seems to like 160-162's. I have not had a lot of time to get a load down to the nitty-gritty yet cause deer season is interfering with load work-up.

For accuracy, I’ve had really had really good luck in a couple of 7 mags with the Nosler 168 long range Accubond. I haven’t used it on game yet.

I found a good load with that bullet in my christensen Ridgeline 280 ai. I'm running it over h1000 for 2880 fps. However, I had to move the scope back further in the rings because of the lame m16 style extractor was bouncing brass off my windage turret and back into the action.

I don't know how just moving the scope did it but what was a 1/2 moa load is now 1 moa. I'll have to get it back out and adjust the chatge and seating and see of I can bring it back in. I also change brass lots but the first group before the scope move was good but limited to the 1 group.

Bb

In a 280ai I run a 175gn ELD-X at 2840 ft/s.

Terminal performance, according to Hornaday, puts the bullets performance window between ~200-700+ yards in this application.

Does anyone run this bullet and can speak to its terminal performance?

[

If I just had some ham, I could make a ham sandwich, if I just had some bread.........

I got plenty of bullets, brass, and primers but POWDER... oy. I don’t have a ton of room to store it so I usually kept 2-3 lbs each of what I use on hand. That was fine for the first year of this latest shortage......

I like the 180 ELD in my heavy 7 WSM and 162’s in my Kimber. The 180 generates too much recoil in the Kimber. The ELD’s are wicked at long range; probably not ideal for punching shoulders at close range but that wasn’t the question.

This exactly. 7mm x 180 VLD is as good as it gets.

The 180 VLD’s have been superb for me in several 7 mags and (3) 28 Noslers.

My Brux barreled MkV 7RM 8 twist really likes’em.

DF

Good killers MA?

Not MA, but have killed deer with VLD's, mainly the 140 gr. Hunting VLD out of my 6.5-284 at 3K fps. I've not killed anything with the 7mm version, not yet at least.

With the 6.5's, quick kills, multiple exits, so they obviously frag. If they're too frangible, Berger tech recommended the target version with it's slightly heavier jacket. I haven't done that.

When I was working up loads for my 26 Nosler, Berger data had the top velocity at 3,100 fps. I called and said I could get a lot more speed with that bullet out of that round. I was told that they don't like to see their Hunting VLD at over 3,100 fps. That's when they suggested the Target VLD for faster speeds. I moved on to other bullets for the 26 Nosler.

Read JB's New Zealand hunts, testing Berger bullets on game and how well they did.

DF

Makes sense DF. The fellas at Gunwerks only run 180's at 3000+ from their 28 Nosler ammo as well. Said it is just where it works out accuracy wise and the bullets don't need the extra speed.

They should know.

DF

All of the 6’s had 26” barrels and shot the 180 VLD around 2950-3000 with Retumbo. All 3 28’s shot them 3150-3225 fps. I’ve used those girls to kill several deer and a handful of bears and elk from probably 200-800 yds and always been quite pleased. Typical Berger performance going in 3-4” and violently expanding in the vitals wrecking havoc. Probably about 50% exited and typically with a 1 1/2-2” wound.

Found 300 of the Berger .308 230 OTM’s yesterday so going to try them first in my new 300 Norma Improved.

Thanks MA.

I’ve killed a few elk, as has my brother, with the 162 Eldx out of a 7mm Rem Mag started at 2980. Really slippery at .631 bc. Great bullet performance.

My nephew killed a 5x6 at 409 yards with the 150 eldx out of a 7mm-08 started at 2790.

It’s a good bullet.




P

Some like the ELD-M about as much as the X version, claim they get good terminal performance. Both of those are reportedly accurate, as you and your pard’s have shown.

I’ve never used either. Was wondering how frangible those two are compared to the VLD, Hunting and Target.

DF

I think, I'm going to order one.

I killed this cow at a little under 400 yards, 162 ELDX. The entrance is pretty obvious. The bullet center punched the big leg bone a couple of inches below the shoulder knuckle.





The bullet destroyed the bone, hit a rib, took out the left lung, blew off the top of the heart, took out the right lung, broke another rib, and lodged under the hide.





Retained weight was around 60-65% IIRC. Pretty good for a C&C.





P

Kilt this little feller around 200 yards, same load. Bullet didn’t exit and we did the gutless on him so I didn’t find the bullet. Truth be told I didn’t look too hard, as I knew how much work we had to do.





I don’t think I hit the shoulder bone going in but he sure went down fast.




P

I’m glad to hear the heavy for caliber ELD-M’s work for elk. I have been using them to great effect on hogs. 208 gr ELD-M out of a 30-06 has been completely effective on all sizes, ranges and shot placements. It’s not a meat saver bullet, but the wounding potential means you will anchor the animal. Penetration and expansion matches what’s needed on the body ranges I see.

My goal has been for 2700 fps which is working the 30-06 pretty hard. Going to have a 300 H&H built which should let me utilize that bullet at the goal velocity nice and easy with low pressures. But I’ve been wondering if optimizing the build around that bullet would handicap me in the future for elk. Sounds like I should be good to go.

I liked how well the 212 ELDX works on elk from my 30-06 at 2700.. It is one of the combo's I don't mess with. Accurate as hell and just works like magic in that speed range in my opinion.

Sitting on my OG 700 AWR & a box of the 180 Scenars (thanks for the advice @Beretzs) but haven’t paired them up yet. Still somewhat sad that Remington decided on a 9.25 twist for such a great backcountry hunting gun.

I live at 6,700 foot elevation, but actually had a 9.5 twisted Ruger 7mm Mag that shot the 180 scenar quite well. It might do okay with them.

An OEM Big Green 7mm RemMag with 9" and small change RPM,will Smooch,house and stabilize a 180 ELD VERY happily,even at low tide. Hint.(grin)






Just sayin'..................

I should have specified that my comment was for a 7mm RUM

Stick have you ever dabbled in the 7mm STW? Throated correctly it might be a bad biatch with heavies...no?

I've only had (3) 7 STW's and (2) 30 STW's. Throating cain't make either better,as it's simply too much case length and not enough mag box(700's all). Hint.

Which is why the 7mm RemMag shines,like few fhuqking others. Hint.................

Interesting. Thks

A quick 1000 words:

30 STW with 155 Skinner seated to max OEM L/A 700 COAL(which tends to average 3.685") on left of OEM 'box. 30 STW(full length H&H),next to a 7mm RemMag empty(which is a 2.5" H&H) on it's right. Boolits in ascending length to left of loaded 30 STW: .308" 155 Skinner,.284" 162 ELD,.284" 180 ELD and lastly .284" 190 A-Tip. Hint.



Now "throating" sounds fhuqking good,until you nestle schit in said confines with STW case length. HINT.



So if only to come full circle,the 7mm RemMag in OEM issued guise,is a tough NO Bullschit bitch to whoop. It'll Smooch,nestle and stabilize the 180 ELD at Low Tide. I'm ALWAYS happy to trade away case length and some capacity,to eek more BC. Which is why in a nutshell a 22-250AI/224 Speedmire STOMPS a Swift. Why a Seex Kreed STOMPS a 6mm Rem....yada,yada,yada. Bullets matter wayyyyyyyyy more than headstamps and you gotta align RPM,COAL and throat geometry to ring the bell. So for a STW or Ultra to play in like latitude,you'd need to increase COAL the .350" case length difference,from a 7mm RemMag,which would require a 4.035" COAL latitude mag box. Hint.

Pass the easy win and hold The Fhuqking Fluff. Hint.

You've been led to water....................

Stick plugging a belted case that holds more than 50 grains of powder! WTH!

If you do not listen to Stick, you are one very dub MF...

Simple trumps all

I learned the hard way, window licker and all!

Merry Christmas Stick

Keith

PS. What is a 155 skinner? dumb [bleep] abounds here.... Start at the start...I have it all to learn after 40 years of this stuff...Lathes and blanks in the garage abound!

155 scenar