Recently I spent some time at my step daughter's in another state.. Deer/elk seasons were on so one of my projects was to go to the local rifle range and watch guys shooting.. The range was only 200 yards long.. During the time I was there, I seldom saw a shooter with a std. rifle and say a 3-9 scope.. Often the rifle was a typical hunting rifle but with what was clearly a long range scope.. One other thing I noticed was almost always, guys were going to the bench with two boxes of factory loaded ammo.. I am guessing, guys are caught up in the long range shooting world and bought either a long range scope on their rifle or a new rifles and scope for this sport.. However, although they had good equipment, they were still shooting factory stuff.. I messed with long range shooting for quite a while, never made the shots folks do to day, but I could never made some of my longest shots by simply buying a few boxes of factory before season.. I guess what I am asking if these guys are buying long range scopes and in many cases long range rifles and sight them in at 200 yards, have things improved enough to make accurate shots at 500 to 1000 yards.. Thanks.. The world is changing faster than I can keep up with..

Ive had some rigs like factory ammo and some that didnt.
Do think most times some handloading can be of benefit.

I varmint hunted a lot when younger and always shot handloads. Chucks mandated half inchers at 100 IMHO.

My current yote rifle, and im not very serious about things as I used to be, shoots .75 at 100, w cheap factory ammo.

Have two deer rifles at an inch or just under, w factory ammo.

Have done minor check for lot # variation but so far diff lots have shot same.

Im 300 yards and in so not a long range shooter.
Maybe whittling groups .25" lesser at 100 is worthwhile.

Both of my Ruger single shot varmint rifles wear 10X reg Leupolds ( one an M8, the other a Vari X iii ).

Traditional looks important on those IMHO and will.proly up to a 12x when I find a deal.

My yote rifle is a .243 in HS stock and it wears a reg 4-12x AO.

I see nothing wrong w big scopes and tactical looking stuff.

Just dont want to lug more around LOL.

Range not too far away goes to 700.

After deer season some buds and I are gonna shoot our regular crap at 500 and see how bad they do.

My other deer rifles wear 3.5-10x and 2-7x.
Will try the .30-06 w the vx3i out to 500 😊

2 boxes of ammo sounds like an ok day at the range.
But Id be spending more than one day at the range of getting something set up for long D.

Hell i burn that much or.more checking short range stuff.

Guess I just shoot til im comfortable w the system.
Even when handloading i find something good and am done. Am not one to constantly tweak or change things.

Still want a .257 wm for a long range yote nuker.
Proly end up spending a fair bit at that long range place if I get one.

Not enough

From what I`ve seen, buying "long range" rifles and scopes, plus two boxes of ammo, does not make a long range, 300 yrds +, shooter.
But each of us has to have enough smarts to figure that out.

Hmmm...

- what's a "std rifle"?
- what's a "long range rifle"?
- why is a 3-9 scope not a "long range" scope?
- what's a "typical hunting rifle"?
- what makes a "clearly a long range scope"?
- why is factory ammo apparently automatically not long range ammo?

I can guarandamntee you anyone serious about practicing long range hunting won't be found at any range sitting at a bench poking holes at 200 yards in quiet air...

Pretty hard to verify data on a 200yd range.....not uncommon at all for speed and BC to need trued to your actual impacts. I like 600-1k to true up BC. Once I have my data for the load it's matter of data collection in different conditions. Might need to tweak bc or speed in various conditions.



Me thinks they just think it's cool and 200yds is probably far for them.

06, That is what I am thinking..

I can't answer your question, but do feel it is worth mentioning that for whatever reason, I have come across a fair number of long range shooters who put their reloads in factory load boxes.

I have no idea why they wouldn't buy a plastic box designed for reloads, but it is something that I have noticed.

I don’t base my longer range shooting readiness by the number of rounds I send across a canyon anymore. I did that at one time, when I was figuring out rifles and their loads.

Now with the ammo and component shortages, I might launch 1-5 rounds max. And, that would only be to verify scope is gtg.

🦫

1-3 rounds at 100 to get zero after a new batch of ammo, may twist to 5 and 700 yards to confirm, easy, so 5 rounds max.

My long-range specialty pistols are mostly setup with 2.5-8X Nikon's with BDC reticle or Burris's with the BP reticle. I now have a 2-6X Weaver with a 6.5' plex reticle at 6x setup on a 17 Fireball XP-100 that i have killed out to 425 yds. with. I don't put a lot of big optics on any of my SP's any more unless it's setup for prairie dogs off the bench.

One might also ask how many rounds you fire offhand to get ready for sudden opportunities at 100 yards or less. I visit a range at least once a week on average, sometimes more, and it’s rare to see anyone fire offhand, except at 20 and under. The ones that make it to the 50 with their carbines almost invariably fire from a rest. Can’t recall seeing anyone fire offhand with a hunting rifle except me. One rimfire addict shoots both pistols and rifles offhand at gongs at 100, and since he shoots almost every weekday, he’s pretty good. Even if the usual shots are long, short pokes happen, and sometimes “dead” stuff gets up and takes off.

I verify my sighting at 200, and may take a few pokes at 300, both off the bench due to range rules. I also fire a good many shots sitting on a stool or chair at home with airguns, which is probably the most realistic practice for my deer hunting, which is about 50/50 ground seat/treestand (no rail). Where I hunt, I’d have to go to considerable effort to put myself in position for an opportunity at over 100 yards, as the cover even in the “open” areas is very brushy, with head-high weeds and other vegetation. There are one or two open spots, but those seem to get most of the hunter traffic it seems. Sometimes I think many are uncomfortable in close cover. One guy I ran into even complained because the F&G folks didn’t knock down the cover so he could see better. (!)

In my offhand shooting practice, I have determined that 75-100 yards is about as far as I can dependably hit a gallon milk jug offhand. I limit my shots on deer and elk to under 400 yards because that’s about where my confidence of hitting the spot I’m aiming for ends. Your mileage may vary.

I dont take shots Im not comfortable with.
And that isnt fully dictated by yardage.

Unfortunately there are some folks that shoot hoping to hit a deer.

Never understood that.

i shoot 3 rounds to verify zero from the previous hunting season. if i change ammo, i shoot 3, adjust, shoot 3 more, and adjust to 3" high at 100 yards. i don't shoot at anything past 300. 270 win, 308, and 30-06. been doing this for about 55 years. best of luck to the long range shooters, but it just isn't my thing.

Pre ammo craziness? Usually around 50-100 rds a month over the summer from field positions out to 600yds.

Now? Maybe 10-20rds. Good thing is that ballistics stay the same, and fundamentals can be practiced by dry fire or .22lr.

But my hard limit is 600yds, so not crazy long range. Honestly closer is better.

No. My guess is, what you're seeing is guys with "long-range scopes" that for the most part won't be taking 500 yard shots. Because if the furthest they can practice is 200, they have no business taking 500 yard shots.

A wise man once told me, "if you want to be good at 500, practice out to 700 or 800."

That is kind of what I think smoke.. It's the latest fad so they want in.. I saw a nice buck tonight at 375 yards.. He looked a long way off and it low light an tall grass.. Never even lifted a finger to take a shot.. Maybe tomorrow, maybe never.. He was too nice an animal to shoot at late in the evening...

What people will accept as "good enough" is what changes.

I’m no long range shooter by any means, but last 3? Years that I’ve been reloading. I’ve gone through at least 1000 primers between 6.5, 270 and 06.
It’s helped me tremendously to outshot my friends at normal ranges and find my max comfort zone.

25,000

Bout right!

It depends on the shooter….

Do they have good shooting form (know how to setup / stand / lay down / …..)
Do they know & believe in their ballistics, and scope and can “run the rifle”…
Last - how much “trigger time” do you get a year, even if you have the top 2, if you don’t have any precision trigger time, you won’t shoot well.

Did you talk to any of them and interrogate them as to their reasons for doing so?
Did you point out the error of their ways?
Or are you just bitchin on the internet



I like factory ammo boxes, they are generally more compact than plastic boxes, I particularly like the old federal boxes that had 2 10 round soft plastic holders that fit well in a pocket or pack

Serious long range shooters/hunters don't just "shoot a few rounds to get ready".

Those who really understand and have a passion for long range shooting, tent to do it all year long and replace barrels every year or so depending on what their chambering's appetite for steel is.

As for the chuckleheads, who knows.

The number of rounds is not the point of learning to shoot long range. Shooting time should be spent learning how a certain gun and load works, over varying conditions and what input changes how the shot lands. Buying a preset up long range rifle and scope does not buy that experience. I have been using the same rifle for about 10 years, as time has passed and more rounds have passed through it( with care ) the predictability of where the shot lands has gone up. When I first used this gun a 400 yd shot was a long one. Since then I have shot game at ranges out to 700 yds. And at that distance, I was not guessing about anything, the outcome of the shot was certain in my mind before the trigger broke. This confidence comes from shooting over varying conditions at various ranges and reading the conditions properly. It also includes times where that knowledge tells you not to pull the trigger, because varying conditions, (mostly gusty swirling wind here ) make being about to predict shot placement impossible. Paper , steel and rocks are where you learn these things and save the animal targets for certain shots in predictable conditions. A lot of people do not have the patience to not shoot when they should not. The programs available for ballistics and accuracy of new rangefinders are all part of the exercise that improve the shot predictability. And all need to be work with and field tested to improve your shooting
P.S. you can run 100s of rounds down range. But if there is no thought put into each shot and things are not learned from each shot, you just just burnt powder and flung lead.

Nothing against long range shooting, I know many who are very competent long range shooters. Unfortunately they are heavily outnumbered by those who bought the equipment, watched the videos and have no clue.
.

Couple that with bench only vs field and live target differences….

The short answer to your question is no, things have not improved enough to zero at 200 and get easy hits at 1,000. You still have to know what you’re doing and most people don’t.

The long answer is yes, things have improved enough to allow repeatable hits to a mile or more. We’ve been at war for decades in places where long-range shooting is important, we’ve trained a bunch of folks to get hits at long range, and governments have pumped a ton of money into private sector companies that create technology and gear for it. Individual shooters can also share information about it freely on the internet, so yeah, we’re there in terms of gear and knowledge. But again, most hunters should confine their shots to within 200 yards. Few them can shoot a decent group at that range, even from a bench, and even fewer have any idea of how to read the wind.

Three other things come to mind.

With the ammo market the way it is, people go to the range with the ammo they can find. Many stores have a two-box limit, so it’s hard to tell what shooters are doing just by looking at their ammo. Also, a guy zeroing a long-range rig at 200 yards with cheap factory ammo might understand his limitations and be planning to work within them.

In most outdoor companies, the marketing department has more pull than the engineering department, so a lot of new scopes look like long-range scopes even though they’re not. Some guys buy them just to get features that traditional 3-9s don’t offer: first focal plane reticle, illuminated reticle, the ability to dial, usable long-range reticle, adjustable objective, side focus, etc. Whether they need any of that is a different issue. They want it, so they buy it.

Finally, everything about manufacturing has gotten far more precise in the last 20 years, so rifles, mounts, optics, and ammo are far better than they used to be. A good rifle that has been set up properly might be able to make good groups at very long range with factory ammo—after all, very few military snipers get to load their own and they do just fine.

The main thing is that the shooters you saw were giving it a try. Lots of them quickly learn that reality doesn’t match their expectations. I’ve seen plenty of people shoot huge groups at 200 and realize that they need to learn a few things before they try to reach much farther.


Okie John

Shooting long range steel or rocks is a Hell of lot of fun, and a great way to stay sharp in the
off season, I enjoy long range shooting, and have many friends that enjoy long range shooting, as for the # of rounds i fire, i am not sure but would guess around 2000 to 3000, rounds per summer, out to 1800 yards, but i keep my shots on live critters under 300 yards, and most of my shots are 200 yards or under on game animals. Rio7

Castle Rock, I am not bitchin on the internet [bleep].. I wanted to know how long range shooting has changed since I fooled with it 40 years ago.. My pals were shooting wood chucks and deer at 700 to 1200 yards, probably before you were in diapers.. When people are getting ready for season, you don't interrogate them about their equipment.. Apparently you have no manners in life..

As for the others, it was my impression these guys were caught up in the long range thing without going through the amount of range time and serious shooting that is required for this type of shooting.. When I was in this type of shooting things were lots different, and my long range shots were cake for the new long range shooters.. Rio and others have answered what I thought was the issue, equipment doesn't take the place of practice!! Thanks guys, I have long been out of this game, and am too old to get back in.. But no matter the equipment, it still takes practice.. Thanks again..
/

Proficiency absolutely still requires practice, but modern ballistic modelling apps, scopes, rangefinders, rifles, and bullets make it possible to get the vertical trajectory correct with much less trigger time than it used to require. Some of those same advances have made wind reading less critical (high-BC bullets are less sensitive to wind changes, for example), but there is still no shortcut around the wind, and that’s what really sets a practiced LR rifleman apart from a proficient SR rifleman who buys a bunch of the latest-and-greatest technology and expects to be GTG at
LR after just a few shots.

Just to address the factory ammo portion of the question , I will say that I have one particular rifle that shoots a factory load as well if not much better than anything I have ever been able to load for it . Must admit that it is an exception as the rest of the rifles I own much prefer my handloads. It is an early Ruger All Weather in 22-250 and by far the best thing I have found to shoot in it is the Winchester white box Varmint (40 round box) 45 grain load . At the time I was able to buy these they were the cheapest thing on the market . It puts them all in one small green pea size puddle at 100 and if I judge the wind right will keep them in a small tea cup to 500 yards . That's good enough for me . My scope on that rifle is a steel tube Weaver K12 . I don't shoot any farther than that .

Most probably not.

Your original post was assuming that people with decent scopes were long range wannabes, even though they were just at a range sighting in or whatever, you never conversed in any way with them so what led you to presume what you did?

I find it hard to understand why there are so many threads on here calling out other shooters for no apparent reason, when I am out and about and see people doing their own thing I think it is great, I would certainly not consider rushing back to my computer and starting a thread on the internet putting [bleep] on them

I didn't put anything on them.. I was merely asking if with modern equipment could people become long range shooters with little ammo expended.. I didn't rush back and start a thread, I have been thinking about it for several weeks.. Lots of changes in the long range game since I was really into it.. You were the only negative comment I had.. That tells me all I need to know about you.. GFY

You seem a mite agitated, having sworn at me in two consecutive posts here 😂

If you are genuinely asking if it is possible to do a long range load work up with just a few shots may I please direct yo to this
Why, yes it is

Factory ammo has improved consistency quite a bit, but not enough to depend on the MOA theory. Unexplainable things happen to accuracy between 200 yard 2" group loads not being able to deliver 3" 300 yard groups, or 4" 400 yard groups.

However, I've found that out of say trying about about 8 to10 different factory loads, there may be a couple of loads that will shoot 4" groups @ 400 yards. But, you have to actually shoot them to know.

I go to a range that requires you show a 300 yard test target with 5 shots in the bulls eye with no other holes outside of the bulls eye. to have access to the longer range area. I've seen so many disappointed faces from shooters who try their MOA 100 yard loads to find out the load may spread to say 7"@300 yards, so again you have to shoot distance to actually know.

Stray thanks again, that is what I was thinking.. Mostly nice helpful guys we have here.. Have a great hunt this fall..

At this point, this is where I'm at too.

This fall, elk at 330 yards, deer at 90 yards and Coyote at 525 yards. I wasn't left wanting more time behind the gun to feel comfortable.

It's amazing to me how many off-the-shelf rifles can shoot boxed ammo sub-moa these days. Seems in the last couple of decades we've come a long way in manufacturing.

Always interesting to read the thoughts her on LR hunting. Only one person in this thread (Jordan) mentioned the voodoo.......WIND. It doesn't make a crap what, or how much your equipment costs, doping the wind correctly is baffling to even the experts, especially on first, cold bore shots. I was visiting with a guy with last name Tubb a couple of weeks ago when we were whitetail hunting. He was mentioning the same thing.

Great post. However, Trigger time is the only way you are goong to know if you and your set up is up to the task. Shooting under varying conditions at varying distances off of various types of rests with a known and proven platform is the only way you are going to know which shots you can and cant/shouldn't take. Even practicing first shot hits at various ranges is crucial. Appropriate size targets, so you know you can hit vitals with the first shot is the important thing to remember. After that, all the other shooting and practicing and playing around adds to the skill set. I like punching paper at 100 yards, focusing on fundamentals and shooting multiple 10 shot groups, then for fun, I shoot 2" targets at 400 yards. The best I do there is 8 out 10, but I keep practicing. Also, if your goal is to shoot 600 yards, practice at 800-900 yards and then 600 seems like a walk in the park.

My local range goes to 1500 yards , so every session includes long range shooting.

These are with regular hunting rifles to dedicated target rifles.

i mostly use a 257 Weatherby mag. for hunting , my rifles all have custom barrels except one i purchased this fall and its a Weatherby a Accumark 257 W.MAG. also that has had some accuracy work done . i have spent many hrs,, days , years shooting out to 700 yards with a 257 Weatherby mag cartridge also even burned out one custom 257 W. mag barrel learning this cartridge , i have shot many long range rifle shoots even won a few bucks doing those money shoots , also shot 1000 yd. matches and shot FTR in the Master Division . my 257 hunting Rifles have Nightforce and target Leupold scopes on my hunting rifles. my longest one shot kills with a 257 Weatherby mag. was a measured 700 yards by a Marine hunting friend who was in Viet Nam and was with Carlos Hathcock i do always have a bi-pod on my rifles when i am out west hunting other wise in a stand i use a tripod rest. at farther long range hunting for bigger animals i bring out my custom 338 Lapua / nightforce scope rifle, i am sure their guys out there and on this site 24 hr. Campfire that do have some very good equipment too and know how too shoot long range excellent . good luck to all hope your hunts are safe and a lot of fun,Pete53

Before the ammo crunch I fired 700-800 rounds per month shooting long distance. Most of that was in PRS matches or preparation for a match. I did that year round even during hunting season.
I have tapered back due to difficulty in buying reloading supplies.
I have a 400 yard range in my backyard and 1000 yd range on a lease.

I have a Bergara 6.5 cm I got to give PRS a try right before COVID. It has a Zeiss V4 6-24x50 with turret that seems very capable to me. I’ve struggled to find a great load for this gun everything shoots MOA but nothing drastically better. Using the free Zeiss software on my phone and the cheapest factory ammunition I’m hitting targets at 1100 yards with minor adjustments from a mediocre bench. Field positions deer sized vitals targets are routine at 6-700 yards.

It’s incredible to me how much simpler it is with the newer optics & software to make very long shots. I do have my own 225 yard range at home & a 500 yard elk rock have been shooting for 50+ years many thousands of rounds over the years. I shot my elk rifle less than 50 rounds the last 3 years preparing for elk hunting since nothing has changed. I shoot it starting at 400 yards move to 5,6,700 yard gongs smaller than deer vitals until I hit them last year that took 5 shots 4 the year before. We had 15-20 mph winds sight in day one year I never could hit 700 yard target.

So in my opinion if you can shoot reliably at 200 a capable long range scope can allow you to reliably hit targets at longer ranges. We have a good friend hunts elk out of the same campground has had 3 straight 12 year old kids get a cow on their first hunt. Lay one killed his cow with a single shot at 649 yards. Dads 300 scope adjusted for him prone with a rest & 10 minutes of practice dry firing to prepare. Ive hunted dove with the family & the kid can shoot but that is mostly equipment making the shot possible.

Irrelevant.

This is the "long range" forum. If you want to talk about killing possums at 50 feet, go to the hunters forum.. I also don't see where anyone has mentioned 338 Lapua in this thread. However, if they wanted to, they could do so in this forum. I don't particularly care for the big beast 338 myself, but I don't condone anyone that uses one. I have my own stories about such things at my range concerning a younger guy shooting a 338LM with big Vortex scope on top. Funny chidt too. He was embarrassed when I shot better with irons at 100 yards. His girlfriend was watching my target and said, "dear, that guy just shot better than you with irons". Cute little thing too. I just looked over and winked at her... Again, if you want to talk about killing possums at "50 feet", we can take it over to the pistol section...

Yer right. There ya go.

Absolutely as many as i can

I generally burn 40 pounds or more powder during g a normal year, from 100 to 1,000 yards, and anyone that talks to me at our range Gets told to practice LOTS in the worst conditions and in the positions they intend to hunt, regardless of the distance they intend to shoot at.
My son built a dedicated long range deer/ antelope rifle last year , and practiced regularly with it.
Cat

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