Read the NRA article on long range hunting shots. IMHO it left a LOT to be desired. From reading it seems you can buy the gear, take a few days or a week at a shooting school and be done.

And come ups in 100 yard increments only? WOW is all I can say. Its much harder to get good than mentioned.... IMHO. Sad to think where this article will lead.

Jeff

Who wrote the article..........

Should I really answer......

I would like to know if you don't mind..........

Jeff
Saw the article, thought the same thing. Pandering to the 5 minute attention span, I presume.

JWP
Ian McMurchy..... would not have had quite as much an issue if it would have talked 300-400.... especially with the reality of the test article attached, though its hard for me to believe that average folks shoot that friggin bad....

Jeff

Average folks shoot that friggin bad. Check any public range a few weekends before any fall season and you will be unimpressed to say the least.

"Check any public range a few weekends before any fall season and you will be unimpressed to say the least."

I volunteer at my gun range the two weekends before hunting season for the public sight in days. Holy %%%% is it scary. When you have to check to make sure the ammo matches the gun you know you have a problem.

Two Quick stories---Guy goes to local sporting good store and buys a Remington with scope included. Walks directly to a 200yrd line and says its on at a 100yr it was bore sighted! He was not even going to sight it in before he went hunting!

Next guy shooting a 30-378 Weatherby. I watched him shoot 1.5 BOXES of ammo in a afternoon at $95.00 a box. He could not shot a 6 inch group at 200yrds. He had to leave and go buy another box of ammo. He would almost fall of his stool before he pulled the trigger he was flinching so bad. And these are the guys we share the woods with. THis is why I hunt in the desert away from everyone. Do not hunt on public land around Portland OR.

Last story I shoot at 600yrd every week at the range. it is open to the members every Tuesday. A member showed up with a Christianson arms 300wsm and was leaving on a sheep hunt in Russia. Scope was a Lupy with the Boon and crocket reticle. It took him 3 shoots to hit a 6X6 cardboard backer. That�s 6 feet! He was all over the target. He finally by the grace of god flinched in the right place and hit the X ring. At that point Packed his gun up and said "I'm good to 600yrds"

Sorry for the rant but articles do Long-range shooting a dis-service.

Jeff: Course they shoot that friggin bad.......... Can't zero rifles, have no idea about trajectory,etc. Some you see make you talk to yourself.

I'm a little weary of McMurchy's "long range" articles. Many reading them are unaware of how many tens of thousands of rounds fired it takes to be truly proficient at really long range. They can be told a hundred times, but not many have the time behind the butt and in the field to be remotely profficient at it.

I thought that it was Ian's article,just wanted to make sure. Ian is a savy long range shooter.It is impossiable to cover everything when you are limited to 2500 words or so give or take..I haven't read the article as yet,but in general I like Ian's articles..............

JWP

I know Ian is a good shot, just the article was very much double speak IMHO. No one can shoot and hit at 300 yards, but you only need "come ups"(which are TACTICAL terms-- come on I"m a highpower shooter, come ups are not a tactical term, simply a term....) every 100 yards out to 700 yards(what about every 25 yards?) and a good school. What about the thousands of rounds I have down range at 600-1000 yds before I was shooting good enough to be able to learn the wind. Wind isn't only a wind speed meter..

I think the bottom line was don't do it if you can't, which we all agree to, but I think more emphasis should be put on what it actually takes to get there and pointing out what effect errors can have on the shot, much less shooter error. Thats what opens eyes in my hunter ed classes.

Nothing against Ian personally, just thought the article was a disservice. I've gotten into it with him over another article about shooting a bear that was charging him from 200 yards out etc..... I just think wording and article could be different(thats not saying better, just different) As they say, just because you can do it, doesn't mean you can teach it.

Jeff

The amount of experience it takes is my point exactly. You gotta start somewhere, but the notion you can go buy the equipment and "do it" is erroneous. You need years at 600-1000 to be proficient.

Guess I seem strange-- I jump in on folks that say long shots are un-ethical. Yet it can be done easily in a lot of circumstances. But those circumstances also say I've often shot 600 or 1000 yards almost every other weekend for years at a time with iron sights since 1990. I was horrible in 1990. Now I'm good or at least was till 2 years ago.... Gadgets help, I use them to set up parameters, but only time and experience make you good enough.

Personally I like having qualifications for shooting or hunting. If you can't hit X target at X range then you have no business out there, that would get rid of a LOT of the shooters that have no business in the woods. Want the PRIVILEGE of taking game? Show your ability. Tis no right, IMHO, to harvest game.

Jeff

Jeff-----I will say this about long range shooting of animals at risk of being called ugly names but so be it. 90% percent of the people who go hunting should not attempt to take lets say a deer at over 200 yards. Why � some because of equipment and some because of skill some both! That being said less than 2% of the people who hunt should attempt long range hunting period.

Most people have neither the skill, experience or equipment to routinely and humanely dispatch game at lets say 800yds. Point----if you took everyone on this board who claimed to be proficient in being able to adjust for a condition I submit that less than maybe 1 in 10 would be able to do it. Judging condition for you and I is something we do every time we compete or practice at range. I have a place to shoot ultra long range and do so all of the time when practicing � never once have I had anyone who did not compete try and judge a condition at 1200 yards that was within 6 feet of the 8 inch gong! Most are real good shots at short range and memorize trajectory tables and will just about let their jaw hit the ground after they shoot a few rounds at long range because they are so far off. You should hear the excuses from my barrel is clean to this is a new can of powder---never well my skill set really needs work!! I see where they hit and will make careful note of the conditions and usually shoot much closer on the 1st shot than they did after 10 or 20.

In every single case they do not realize what extreme spread will do to you vertically at range nor do the understand the relationship of using a rest correctly not to mention the wind which still continues to give me fits at the ranch because of the varied terrain and wind currents. You must understand how these elements although disparate are all very closely related and must be integrated together seamlessly to make a successful shot every time not just to get lucky and wing one in!! That is for unethical hunters IMHO!

Not over 200. Heck some don't have business at all IMHO...

You are true to form on what it takes. Been many a time I"ve wanted or could have taken a mid range or long range shot and walked away scratching my head. No guarantee in that condition to shoot an X as a "sighter" so why shoot.

Having made the P100 a few times at Nationals, which generally is over 1000 shooters vying for 100 spots, generally around 1300, and me generally having the highest or close to highest score on the 600 in that match, I see many in the P100 that would be deadly to 300- 400 but have no business past that even though they are in the top percentages of national shooters....

I can't stretch my legs past about 600 right now, maybe 1000 later in life if I trim trees right, if I ever get my gear to load the 700ish grain bullets I may PM you to test her out....

Jeff
PS very wet down here again. West of me, and your brother is west.... they had up to 4.5 inches of rain yesterday AM and more is coming now they claim.....

Yep--more rain here as well--Danny said he was not opposed to putting in a range!! That is something that he and I will discuss but anything less than 400 is a waste but we will see.

Good luck with the long range development!

DWM

I'm sure I'm not as experienced as you guys, nor as good...but it isn't that tough to shoot MOA at 700. Certainly doesn't take tens of thousands of rounds of practice...

Shhhhhhhhhh....

It doesn't take that much to shoot MOA at 700. Its reading the conditions in between and being able to know when and when not to shoot, such that the MOA group is unimportant, its the first shot hitting the target that is important. Not that I doubt you can do that also. Some are simply better than others.

That being said it took me years of shooting to be able to avoid the unexpected on the 600 yard line. Those unexpected shots would be bad on game. Merely shooting a number of good ones in a row is not that difficult. Of course if you can shoot MOA at 600, then you are fully capable of shooting a 200-20x which has never been shot in competition on a range with wind flags helping you.

The difference therein, and you both know this, you 2 and a few more of your crew-- that other one too, less I get banned too....(grinning) know when to shoot and when not too. And have shot more than a bit checking zero's.

Jeff

You never have replied to my shooting challenge Steelhead??? Shhhhhhhhhhh everyone hears you shaking cowering in the corner!

Yeah, it always boils down to the wind. Our range is just off the beach, and tucked at the base of some hills, so it seems there's always varying air currents.

rost..,

It took about 3 paragraphs of that article before I completly glazed over. Since I'm not a sniper/swat wannabe, don't shoot competively and mostly just hunt there was nothing there to hold my interest.

On a range like that, I"m very interested into your input of rollover wind effects. Things that change the value of the wind.

Do you see rollover issues at all at the base of a mountain? I"ve seen the mirage do very strange things at the base of a mountain but I"ve never fired a round at the base.

Can you tell if you are effected vertically from those winds as they hit the base also?

I was gonna go through and set up a scenario to post... but its probably not worth the time. For those that think their half inch gun at 100 is a 3.5 inch gun at 700, and how bad they wobble, yank the trigger, how close they can guess the present effects and roll that into group size... I'd think that going 2moa at 700 is not doable by many. And 14 inches is a bit large of a group for me to be working with...IMHO. Of course the good guns are gonna shoot groups at 700 in the range of 3 inches or less which helps a LOT.

Whats really fun is to shoot a large enough target so you can see impacts, and adjust for the wind and just shoot through changes, guessing where the bullet will land and seeing how close you are. Without ever holding off or clicking.


Jeff

Outcast, thats actually good. I hope it had that effect on most that read it.

Jeff

I don't have much input of rollover effect...grin.

I've never hung flags, and the vegetation isn't always easy to read on our range, part of it being clearcut. Right xwinds and headwinds are common, left xwinds less so but often stronger. Left xwinds also commonly have a downdraft component that can get tricky.

Obviously, over 700 or 1000yds, a guy often has to deal with two or three different wind directions/strengths between the muzzle and the target. Those days are hard to read.

Every shot is fired with your belly or your azz in the gravel, and the bench is a log, padded with a spare shirt or jacket, and a couple innertube bags (or Spike's Swaro binocs).

Targets are usually 10x10 or 12x12 square steel plates hung from a log or tree, painted bright but pale blue. A guy can re-paint between groups to freshen them.

Vapor trails are easy to see, and easy to film. The whole operation lends itself well to video tape that's often replayed over a cocktail or two back at the house. Stick has some great footage of shooting his latest 7wsm at 1030yds, and his tape of Accraholic shooting chicken eggs off a stump top at 500 plus is pretty good too.

Now that KT has a grip on editing tape to digital clips, one of these days we'll have to cut a few out and post 'em. Every once in a while there's some good bloopers as well. I even spin turrets the wrong way sometimes, and that makes for good comedy.

Every once in a while a perfect day comes along, no wind, and we line up 16oz water bottles on the 708 line.

It's all fun, and not a bad way to hone skills. I still suck at offhand shots though, so should practice that a lot more.

One observation I've made, relative to me only, is that there's a big difference between 600yds and 700. 350, 450, and 600yds are one thing....7 and beyond is where things get way more challenging.

It's all a good time, and it's great taking people out there for the first time. Everyone walks away with a grin, after their first session, and most are hooked on it quick...

I run pretty much the same way, no flags or bench. Just whatever is there for a rest, log, jacket, packback etc.

Also agree that hitting a fist size rock MPAJ out to 600 yards or so is easy, it do get a bit more hairy out there. As always, wind is the bitch and the man that can master it, sans flags etc has really done something.

Certainly is more interestign without flags. I have them to use on ranges, and since I generally shoot irons I have to rely on them for major switches(I try to watch one while I'm breaking the shot....) but I generally try to read grass and leaves and bushes etc... instead of relying on the flags. The smaller lighter objects are often more reliable for minor changes. Looking through a scope makes things much easier, I can use mirage that way but prefer not to. But the mirage makes the trace fun to film for sure!!

I'd love to fire a few off with your crew one day. Maybe TFLW will drag me up that way one day. I need to email him anyway and see how its going.

As to difficulty levels, IMHO once you pass 500-600 yards, things are no longer linear in difficultly. I've always said 800 is ok, but 900 is about twice as hard, not 100 yards harder, and once you cross to 1000 it really becomes interesting.

What I need now is to quit shooting my 223 and 90s so much and get a flat shooting round again and see how much difference it makes.... but since I still want to shoot a 200 score at 1000 with a service rifle... I'm still stubborn, wanted to be the first to do it, at least when it was finally done, it was done with a lot of my load work input into the final AMU load. I'd not be embarrassed to be #2 though....

Sure is nice to dope it, dial it all in and smack it first round. .....

Jeff

BTW my only prone hunting rests have been backpacks and jackets. They work really good for me. I have dropped my bipod off since learning they are much better for me. I can get by with a hiking staff for a quick standing or sitting shot.....
And Brother mentions offhand, best I can tell you snap shooting a 22 quick is the best thing -- our offhand is too slow and precise.

I just about can't stand shooting with most folks. They tend to be to slow and delibrate with everything, including letting the barrel cool.

I'm rack and pull kinda a guy, the barrel cools on the ride home...

Should have taken a picture of the day Stick and I had a half dozen rifles laying on the ground with barrels in the creek to cool, while we were shooting a batch of others...

Jeff, I wouldn't mind trying it your way sometime either. I figure it'd be fun...

Rack and pull? Hell all I do is pull the trigger, the gas and bolt carrier do all that other mundane work....
The most fun I have had shooting is infantry trophy, as much as you can fling at 600 yards prone from a sling in 50 seconds. On a silhouette.... Haven't topped 40 hits yet....but can get 40 aimed shots off and up to 38 or 39 hits is my best... Most of the top military boys are from 36-42 or so..

Now I will admit if its blood vs paper, I'm fairly slow checking and double checking and perfect trigger breaks, but targets, why wait?

Maybe we'll all head that way one day, and some day you'll be down this way!! If my cousin won't mind again we can stretch to 1700ish yards, but he was kinda spooky last time we flung the 700ish grain bullets...

Jeff

BTW what good does cooling a barrel do? Its kinda right up there with cleaning in my books. Both will come with time, but neither are ranking up high, well maybe not unless I become a BR shooter and I don't see that happening anytime soon. Got a 1000 yard club to join and a bit more metal to earn with a pistol.....

Jeff

Jeff---good tubes do not require cooling. Now factory guns tend to shotgun when they get hot---fact. The barrels you use(competition) are stress relieved properly and do not need to cool to maintain consistency. I build my sporters the same way I build my competition rifles--just a little lighter and shorter.

I've no idea if there's a good reason to cool 'em other than they get too hot to touch after a while....

Boss and Brother Dave

Actually there is some pretty firm research that says shooting them really hot and continuing to will erode the throat faster.
I know thats the case with my dedicated rattle battle barrels, but its not taking much life off and the still make new barrels.... Heck its fun to rattle them off and get hits. I'm not a spray and pray guy, but aimed fire can be pretty quick.... and there is always that saying the first look you get at a shot(IE on target and needign to shoot now) is always the best.... there is truth to that too.

And yep Boss - our good tubes are relieved and much different than the 15 dollar factory tubes...

Jeff

Very well aware of the erosion factor but that is just a part of the sport of competition for me. With my sporters I do not abuse them but they often get hot enough to make a factory tube go "shotgun".

If you wait for cooling you'll loose the match! How fast do you rip 5-10 rounds off? Ain't slow I'm sure.

Jeff

Well you guys finally did it. I read the article on the long range hunting in the American Hunter. I think it was a good article but I don't think an average big game hunter who is going to what the article outlined. Most hunters buy a box of 20 rounds and go hunting.

BTW: Interesting discussion on cooling barrels.

Less than 30 seconds if you are good for 5. I usually watch the 300 yd flag only and shoot the condition.

You shoot the condition in less than 30 seconds? Waiting for it to get what you want and then make sure all 5 go quick enough for it not to change?
How do ya'll handle 10 shot groups.

Jeff

I just read the article and thought Ian did a fine job in describing the many hours of practice it takes to shoot LR effectively. I do not see where others have said he went wrong in his article? Maybe just some jealous folks here? If so, let's see an article that you've done that's better.

William Clunie

Definitely not jealous. I"ve been thinking, but not having the time, how I'd have approached that article. I've read and re-read, what I keep getting out of it is that he has fired many rounds down range( so have I- we are probably even if I'm not ahead at an average of 8-10K centerfire rounds a year, not counting pistol, or small bore) but take a class, BUY some gear, and shoot. Never mind the sidebar test. That just doesn't cover it. IMHO. There is continual complaining here about long shots and what it takes, this article doesn't help us much IMHO again.

Note the come ups. Every 100 yards. If you miss the range and its 700 and not 600, you'll miss, so by the same token come ups every 100 yards is not precise enough...

Going by memory there was some note to 2moa being plenty accurate enough and thats the biggest laugh to me. You put a 2 moa rifle down, shoot it at 500, IF you get a 10 inch group you'll be doing good. An MOA rifle at 100 will be lucky to hold 5 inches at 500. Lets look at 500. Add a human holding and shooting the gun. Best I can do in field positions is generally about .5 moa or less wobble area. Thats gonna take the "10 inch group" to 12.50 inches right away. Now lets assume you are perfectly zero'd in and now have the distance perfect and the elevation perfect. You have to shoot a perfect shot to hit a 12 inch vital zone. Add wind into the factor. I can see a 1mph shift in mirage fairly easily. But I've been at this for years. Took me a LONG time to learn it that well. I can glance at teh wind and guess the speed to within a few MPH, but lets say you might be doing pretty well to bracket it withing 5mph. Thats gonna add some more oops to the factor. The wind speed meter is nice, but it doesn't teach you what you have to watch to see the changes coming.... was walking home today, had the wind at 3-4 mph steady at a 10 clock wind and was watching the tree line as I walked, all of a sudden the grass upwind and the trees upwind starting moving harder, and about that time I'm thinking, oops, and it hit me just that fast, an increase to about 7-8 or so.

Lots to be said in those few words IMHO. There is way more to it than that. Temperature, humidity, pressure, slope distance to name a few.

Tis not for anyone that doesn't have lots of trigger time.

My main beef is it sounds like you can buy a long shot and you can't. It takes lots of practice.

BTW I'd do the article but I don't write... wouldn't be much good to do it and not have it published.


Jeff

Amount of practice depends on the person, to a degree...

A few points:

I try not to judge any article in certain magazines, especially when the number of features is so low that it's obvious the magazine is desperately trying to save costs. This describes the NRA magazines lately.

I know from an NRA staff writer that one of his pieces (assigned at 2500 words) waws cut to 1500 in the past year--and no, he did not do the cutting. Somebody at the head office did.

I have shot with Ian and he damn well knows what he is talking about, and can walk the walk. If the article was unsatisfactory to some it was not because of Ian.

JB

rost..,

There's a certain segment out there that thrives on that sort of stuff. Good on them. There are probably 5000 guys out there who can give Carlos Hathcock a run for the money. This Ian fella may well be one. That's cool, too.

For an average guy like me, it's way too much math and probability. Complicated math takes the fun out of my life. Much easier for me to skulk within 200yds or so ....or just not shoot. Much beyond that...I ain't gonna shoot at anything that bleeds. If I want to crunch numbers, I'll stay home and balance the check book.

"A man's got to realize his limitations."

Steelhead

Was not inferring it took that much practice that I shot to become good, only 25% of those shots were at mid range... lots of practice standing and such... just that it takes more than a weekend warrior to learn it and more than 20 shots a year.

Mule Deer

Excellent post. I had not realized that they could chop up and article. Thats damnable IMHO. As to walking the walk, I"ve not doubt about that at all. Thats not the issue. There are some out there that are shooters for sure.My apologies to Ian if they've bastardized his article.

Jeff

Even Carlos said in his book "93 Confirmed Kills" when asked how he did it that when all was said and done he took a SWAG. He was asked a SWAG? He said a "scientific wild ass guess".

All the best long range shooters I've ever known have used the SWAG system of long range shooting. Some read about long range shooting other just do it!

That statement was in reference to one particular shot that was near the mile mark with a 30-06..... Carlos guessed very little,he didn't have to, as he knew what he was doing.........

I don't think so. I think he was talking about his long range shooting in general although that particular shot started the conversation.

I just dug out my copy of the book "Marine Sniper-93 Confirmed Kills" by Charles Henderson. The story in question is in the chapter "Nguyen Stalks the Hill" page 134-135.

There are a fair number of police and military snipers in my shooting club. If you ask them about their long range shooting they will go through a song and dance similar to Hathcock's story but when all is said and done they'll tell you it all comes down to a SWAG. Of course, these guys shoot one rifle, one bullet only and they know their rifle and round inside out.

I tend to be a one rifle guy myself except for my .22. I'm as dumb as fence post when it comes to shooting. 1+1+1=3 is about the limits of my math ability. I love to read what all you guys are posting on long range shooting but to be honest I'm clueless on what most of you are saying. When I'm out shooting where there are no known distances I do the song and dance. I look at the trees especially the tree tops, at the clouds if there are any, the grass, maybe trow up a little dirt, how much mirage, etc. and plug all that information into that block wood between my shoulders called the brain, and than take a SWAG. If I'm right I hit the target on the first shot, if not it may take two shots, and occasionally three. That's why I tend to be a one rifle rifleman. If I had a battery of rifles I would not be able to hit the side of a barn if I stood inside the barn.

Unfortunately a lot of snipers, military and police, have no where near the skill level of some long range shooters. Military the target is pretty forgiving in size as a wound is all you need and you can get more than one shot, while police average distances are 100 yards or so... not denegrating them but they are not quite at the top of the pack. Thats a generalization because I know more than 1 military sniper that got the badge coming off the AMU teams-- they all chuckle at that shooting part as its pretty easy if you've been on a MTU team for a few years.

Things have come a long way in the past years. SWAG still applies a bit, but I can quickly narrow down the parameters, IE I know the wind is not less than this or more than that and X angle, I'll quickly know if I can or should shoot.

I was around when the marines stuck their finger in the air and guessed wind at Perry. Now that meters are out their guesses(and everyone elses) are much better. The meters allow you to set parameters up, its a long read, but out to an easy 500 yards and not bad winds its generally a chip shot for those prepared well. But that doesn't mean buying the right gear and attending a school.

As to Carlos-- he used SWAG, his son uses that term to this day last time I talked with him at Perry. But in reality if you'll read his results of the Wibleton cup at Perry, he knew exactly what the wind was at that last minute and won the shoot off.

Where I differ from you is that I can shoot any rifle-- I just need proven wind charts and come ups. I can call and read the conditions and then simply plug it into a proven chart. I think the part about a 1 gun man is more about getting lots of trigger time more than anything and that only perfect practice makes perfect, more than it is about just having one gun. But you will become very familiar with it, to the point you don't have to think about holdovers or wind if you shoot it regularly to say about 300-500 yards, but once you approach 500 you need to, IMHO start looking at lots more than just what you "feel". The principles to shooting are the same from one gun to the next. Its the ability to read the conditions that makes the differnce.

Jeff

You sure are right about shooting beyond 500 yards. As in the other post about giving up on long range shooting beyond 500 yards because of expense I to have found it is way to expensive for this old boy to say nothing about the fact I'm not bright enough. When ever I hear a big game hunter say he/she got their elk or whatever at 1200 yards or some such I just smile because I know the odds of them doing that with 6 pound featherweight barrel are slim to none at all. Every hunter should at least study the theory of long range shooting so that they understand what it takes and how hard it is to do.

Like I posted someplace else, my last 10 big game critters were killed with 9 different rifles.

You would be surprised what a slim barrel can do, since I only have two rifles with barrels bigger than a #2 contour and one of them is on a 416 so it don't really count.

1200 feet in most cases, MAYBE.....

Steelhead beat me to it, but he is right, skinny tubes don't make a big difference at game ranges as long as its a good brand and set up correctly.... most factory featherweights are far from that.

LR shooting practice isn't cheap... its fun though... Mine combined with matches too boot. Doesnt' make it cheaper though but using 223 does keep it cheaper....than the 308 days...

I love fireforming 223AI brass at 507 yard rocks....

Ever had an AI that shot better during fireforming than with formed brass??? Buddy had one, was using new brass neck sized to fireform. Formed and sized never was as good.

We think it was all BS and taht his press was sprung but one never knows...

507 would be fun!!

Used to burn up a rock appx 2 feet in diameter at 945 yards with a 22-250 running 80s.... lay over the hood and pop away. That was fun too. Wind could get the uniformed though up the hill as a side ravine came in and a saddle came into play.

My 300 win mag and it does not have a heavy barrel




And it shoots groups like this at 300 yards,but also remember on game you do not need a group only one well placed round

Fireforming and formed loads all shoot well.

What is that; A steel plate?

Yes a 12" circle 1" thick mild steel plate that I use out to 1K.........

Hmmm . . . .

I must have missed something. IN one of the sidebars, he got 30 guys to shoot at 300 yards, and none of them could hit, either with his 308 or their own rifle.

Does not seem to me that he was making it look easy. Instead, it looked like he was discouraging shooting at long range unles you practice and know what you are doing.

BMT

I can tell you this---if in Raton I will be flabber gassed if more than one or two people can lay down �F-Class� sit down �BR� and hit a gong 5 out of ten shots at 1k. It is not something that you can read some trajectory charts and be successful quite the contrary. Practice, knowledge, and equipment are what enable you to do this period luck does not even enter into the picture. What I have seen typically happen is folks get frustrated because the bullet will not go where they want it to and get confused making needless adjustments then it really goes downhill fast.

Can say this with absolute certainty if you have a rifle that you use at the short ranges and have not used the 20 MOA bases or rings you will not even be able to zero at 1k so to say your rifle is accurate at an extended range will be difficult unless you have the reticle in some type of increments. The wind is what will kill most amateurs in long range shooting because it is a real pain to judge.

Question-------you have 4 wind flags one at 300 600 900 and on the back the berm at 1k. You can only use 1 which one will you pick and why???

Can I answer..... I might even be wrong...

BMT
I've reread it again and maybe I just have a poor take on it, but even with the test, it sure seems like its school and gadgets and you could then take the test shooters and have LR shooters out of them.

Jeff

The 300 flag, as the wind closest to the firing line has the most influence on the bullet.

Sorry not my guess anyway. Want to comment on how the winds closest to the target have the most effect? Maybe a Marine?

The 300 flag is the correct answer for exactly the reason stated--good job. Jeff think about it degree of deflection, time of flight. Make sense?

Not yet, but I'm listening.

Boss

Doesn't work for me. But we shoot different sports.... you fire in 30 seconds, I fire in 22 minutes.

The flag closest to me is more important because it starts the bullet off course initially and is more important.

The marines think like you do though and those arguments are ongoing. I win with my theory, they do with theirs.

I pick a flag close to me and upwind to watch. Doesn't mean I'm gonna ignore the downrange flags, but if thats all I watch, I'll be burned as I correct from one shot to the next...

Jeff

BTW are you saying it takes the bullet longer to fly from 300 on in, than it does from 1000 to the 300 yard line? That well could be, never studied it that hard?

All my experience says that shooting with only downrange flags is tougher than seeing whats initially going on at the firing line.

I do have one range thats only a 300 yard range though--- it has only a 300 yard flag and so Ihave to live with what I have and it does work, just once I get to LR I start studying it on various levels.

Not a Marine.....former Army.

Jeff we are in violent agreement here--that is what I said. Also I watch the condition sometimes I fire in 30 sometimes 5 minutes. I watch the 300 yd flag if it is the closest. Maybe I am confused here but we are saying the same thing.

Interesting thread! Hello everyone. I'm a long range shooter, competition. Field course / UKD matches. All I can say, is you are all correct - right on the money in my opinion.

Wind is the killer. Anyone can dial elevation (of course, proven dope and adjusted for your temp / press. / alt.)

Reading mirage and watching wind indicators (brush, trees, grasses, not wind flags) and making a fast determination are the keys. SWAG is totally right on at times, you get a "feel" for the drift and know it's going to be 1 mil, 2 mil, etc. To me it's kind of a Zen thing.

For the matches I attend, we're always under pressure to get the shot off and get moving to the next target, so it is excellent training for hunting.

I, however, do not hunt with my long range rig (14.5 lb rifle! the one in my avatar) but a regular weight .338 which I only shoot to 500 yds. Plenty far enough for everything, I even shoot antelope with it but the longest shot I've taken game at is 430 yards.

Even with all the long range shooting, I don't feel comfy shooting (for me) at a live critter past about 500. I just have the horror in the back of my mind at mis-reading the wind and having a wounded animal limp away at 700 yards. I can usually get closer and most shots just aren't that far, even on prairie goats.

Sorry for the rambling reply...

rost495,

Just saw your post on the AI rifle that shot better with fireforming loads than formed brass.

My guess (based on some experience) is that the AI die was tweaking the necks crooked on the cases. The necks on new brass are usually pretty darn straight.

JB

John---that is why I love my H&H Concentricity Gauge. Let's me know if my Wilson dies are doing what they are supposed to!!

John

Funny thing-- was not the dies but the press-- it literally was sprung. Only one I've seen that way.

We swapped dies, known good ones, around and it was always on his press that the resized brass sucked. Then found out it sucked even worse on longer cases....

We had our indicators stuck away and dug em out to double check.

Ya gotta know that service rifle shooters do things much more crudely than others...

But your point is very correct in most cases!

Boss-- 1000 yard range, the 300 yard flag is 300 yards from the pits.... your version-- I think, is really what I call the 700 yard flag, 300 yards away from the shooter, 700 away from the pits? Had me flying upside down for a second....

Jeff

I hope we don't have an agreement. That would set a terrible precedent.

Jeff,

Wow! That really sucks. Probably ruined a bunch of brass.

JB

Well I can't really remember when Jeff and I did not agree FWIW!

John

Yep almost ruined a bunch. Lucky the guy was short on time and buying HSM match ammo about 5 cases at a time... he'd then try to reload some and it would suck, so he gave most of the brass to juniors. Good all around really.

But he did ruin some 06 brass along the way- of course 06 brass was free for picking up at most matches...

Jeff

I guess it was perception, not reality. Once I understood which flags were which, even I got it.

I've been messing with some long-er range shooting this winter and spring. The canyon I have my 10" steel plates set up in has very unpredictable winds- my ribbons will often be blowing in opposite directions- so I'm sure that plays into things but for ME, things start to get real squirrely out past 500 yards, pretty much as you all have said. Everything starts to compound. So while I love to SHOOT at longer ranges, the thought of taking a shot at a game animal at long ranges leaves me feeling a little... wrong.

Presently, I can hit the 400-yard plate every time with my .338, 30-06, and AR-10. I can hit the 500-yard plate most of the time with my 30-06, all of the time with my AR-10, and almost never with my .338. I can hit my 650-yard plate some of the time with my AR-10, and have not even messed with the bolt rifles at that range because I cannot call my misses due to recoil. But from the experience with the AR-10 I can see that my POI shifts as much as several feet from day to day up there.

I have upmost respect for anyone who can hit a 10" steel plate at 700 yards on the first shot every time under typical hunting conditions using a rifle that a guy would carry in the field. In fact I have a case of beer for the fellow who can hit my 650-yard plate on the first shot. There are several guys who say they can do it over on the hunting forums but unfortunatly we live in different states! I'd love to see it in person, because frankly I'm skeptical. Hit it on the 2nd shot- heck *I* can do that with my DPMS, as long as I see where the first one missed. But that's not ethical for big game hunting.

Great discussion guys!

Here's my long-range messaround rig for anyone who cares:



I know that's probably not a "serious" setup that's very interesting to ya'll but i've been having a gas with it. It's an extremely accurate rifle...

-jeff

How is it that people completely miss the point like this so often? Come to this "unethical" conclusion based upon very poor logic?

Jeff, the conditions at your plate may very well always be conditions under which most or even all of us would pass on the shot if it was a big game animal. What would that prove? Do you believe no other locations and no other conditions can exist?

It's the same old trap you're falling into. Every time you think about it being impossible to place the first shot with certainty, instead jumping to the conclusion that the "unethical long range hunter" will begin flinging lead, realize he will pass on the shot. Pretty simple, eh?

From practicing, just like you have, he knows the ranges at which he can be accurate under a given set of conditions--just like you do.

It's not a match. It's not a bet. You don't have somebody standing behind you with a watch telling you you have to shoot. You don't have to shoot at all. You shouldn't shoot unless the conditions are such you can be certain of placing the first shot correctly.

It's the same rule for any hunting in general. Why do you (and so many others--really it's very common) think this somehow changes at longer ranges?

The unethical shots you are imagining are the ones that are not taken in reality.

Of course there are slob hunters who do fling lead indescriminently, sometimes at long range, but if you're confusing people like that with those here you're quite wrong.

The vast majority of all hunters would have less of a chance hitting your plate the first time at 400 yds than you would at 800. But you've practiced it and you know damn well you can hit it every single time under certain conditions from 400. But many hunters would think you unethical to take a 400 yd shot because they know they wouldn't have a chance at placing it correctly. And because you say you can they'd jump to the conclusion that you'd try such a shot no matter what the conditions, the thought you might pass on it under certain conditions would never enter their minds.

That's exactly what you're doing here.

Jon

Nice summation!

Jeff-- don't take this wrong, but it says a lot to me that you can hit with a 308 but not as often with an 06 and rare with a 338. You are improving as you step up in caliber and it indicates that you simply do not have the grasp of shooting and handling the recoil issues YET. That can come with time if you desire.

The big point here, there are times and places where an 800 yard shot would be a chip shot yet a 500 or even 400 would not even be thinkable. Heck I don't shoot as far as others, but fairly far, and I also often pass up short shots for various reasons. End note is I'm 200% sure IF I pull the trigger. That confidence doesn't come easily to most and to some never...

After having guided enough folks I have heard folks shoot at a deer at 100 yards or less only to ask after the shot .... did I get him(her)??? IF you have to ask that question, IMHO, you have no business taking the shot.

One other aside.... for really long or tricky shots.... there is often time to correct, fire off to the side, spot the shot and instantly correct IF needed and fire on the animal with total confidence...... I attempted the longest shot ever taken for me once on feral sheep, the guy had a new 7STW and wanted to see it work... I"d already shot a head shot at over 200 with my 300, a 550+ iron sight kill and so he wanted me to stretch the new gun out.... long story short we took the test shot off to the side of the sheep, somewhere between 950 and 1000 yards, just scratched the bottom side of a softball sized rock and I never got the 2nd shot off as the sheep started to walk off and it never was right again... But there are some methods.....

Jeff

I didn't mean to imply that ya'll were unethical. I re-read my post and can see where you got that, though. My bad! I just meant that using your first shot as a sighter is unethical in a hunting context- re-read my post and you'll see. Anyway, any true, practiced, long-range hunter/rifleman, which I believe you to be, would by definition know what they were capable of and pass on a shot that was unethical.

It would seem to me that MOST shots at say 700 yards would in that category (the don't-shoot category) in field conditions, though, woudn't they? Especially cross-canyon? Maybe others of you hunt in prairies with 700-yard shots and constant winds but that's not something I've ever seen so it's out of my ability to imagine it! :-) Everywhere I hunt that shot is cross-canyon and you can only know the wind from the shooting position and at the POI- but who knows what it's doing in between. Maybe that's my inexperience talking though.

Anyway I am partaking of the sport of long-range shooting myself, so I am fundamentally on your side here. And I have indeed extended my legit hunting range beyond which some folks would consider ethical so again, I'm on your side there too and that was a valid point.

I do run into the "700-yard shots are just not that hard" stuff on the 'Fire and elsewhere all the time, though, and I guess that's the main thing I was talking about. It goes against what I've seen. To use a basketball analogy, back when I could still play I may not have been the best player on the court, but I knew enough that if someone said they could hit a halfcourt shot first time, I'd say "I betcha!"

It's to that "energy" that I am offering my case of beer to someone who can show it to me in person! There's a lot of folks talking about those sorts of shots very casually and like you all, I'm not buying it. Hey, worst case is I meet on helluva shooter and get a lesson for the price of a case of beer, right?

I hope I'm not coming across as an a-hole. I'd like to learn from you guys, not piss you off!

-jeff

Jeff,

Just read your post. Interesting idea about taking a first shot off to the side of the animal!

I don't THINK that the caliber really has much to do with things, it's more the platform and amount of ammo/money I'm willing to expend. When I'm shooting .308 it is with my DMPS and I am perfectly willing to shoot 50 or more rounds at a session, run it hot, etc. With my '06 and .338, they are prized rifles and plus I'm shooting my hunting loads (Accubonds at full pressure) so it gets expensive in a hurry, and I really don't want to wear those guns out prematurely. The '06 has a Pac-Nor barrel (already wore ONE barrel out on it!), both rifles have Jewell triggers, and I like them just the way they are... so I tend to shoot way fewer rounds through them. That said for me personally a sporter-weight .338 Win Mag would not a be a good first choice for high-volume shooting strictly because the recoil does get tiresome after a while! My 30-06 on the other hand I can shoot all day and it never gets that way.

Here's a question: My DPMS in the picture will shoot (10) 155-gn Nosler J-4's into .85" at 100 yards. It loves those things. Since they are going roughly the same speed as my 225's from the .338, or 165's from the 30-06, it has also been a useful tool to get the number of clicks I need figured out in advance for those other rifles, using the DPMS as the workhorse then fine-tuning things on the other rifles. Anyway, question is, I really should try to find an equally-accurate load with 168-gn bullets for that .308, shouldn't I? They'll do noticably better in the wind?

-jeff

Jeff

Have not shot 155s since they are not accurate in any of my M14s... IIRC(and I don't shoot sierra bullets for mid to long range as their BC leaves a lot to be desired in match shooting..) the 155 has the same bc as the 168 and can be driven faster. If you want better wind bucking look at 175s and especially 175 vlds. When I still shot M14s I shot 185 berger vlds 600-1000 yards.

As to the comments about not shooting the heavier calibers much-- all I have to offer is I shoot 223 most of the time. I have absolutely no issue with hitting just as well with anything up to 338 Win Mag, the 338 RUM is a bit tougher.... IE I might be inclined to tense up some in anticipation... But bottom line is simply this, if you can shoot the 308 good, then its only you if you can't shoot the others as good. The others should be capable of bucking the wind better if the correct bullets are chosen... The only variable is accuracy of each gun, and frankly, matching the AR10 at .9 moa basically should be a chip shot for the 06 or 338. Last 338 testing I did had 225 tsx into .334 or something like that at 100 yards. Maybe .336? It was close to caliber size groups thats for sure.

IF I really wanted to shoot only for game practice( I shoot/shot competitively and just let it bleed over to a hunting rifle easily) and save a gun, I'd do 2 things. Have 2 same rifles exact OR get the hunting gun up and running, then get the BC of that bullet and MV and try to match it with a lesser/cheaper caliber to practice with. Can be done with jockeying the bullets available for BC and adjusting the MV....

IMHO, barrels are cheap enough-- and shooting one out takes more than a few rounds, so practice literally is cheap compared to what you have invested in the hunts....

Jeff

M14's! Love 'em. I have (2) M1a's myself...

I think a big part of things is the scopes. I have 2.5x8 Loopys on the hunting guns and the 6x18 AO on the DPMS...

-jeff

Jeff

I've shot iron sights since 1990 basically out to 1000. If you think you need a certain amount of magnification, its all in your head really. BTDT. You do need to see the target though, I own't argue taht, but you'd be surprised. I've shot out to almost 1000 a number of times in teh field at various targets/game, and don't recall ever using over 10x or feeling handicapped....

That does NOT mean that a good scope is a negative though, but on lots of days, I can't effectively(IMHO) use anything much more than about 16x. I do know a good F class 1000 yard shooter that shoots 1000 with a 48X scope.... don't know how he does it as I can't use 32 on a test scope many days due to mirage...

One way you can find out is swap scopes around the other way!!

I can tell you one thing, I've shot enough heavy bullet loads in the 308 up to 100 plus rounds a day and up to 240s..... to tell you it takes some doing to learn to ignore recoil.....

Right now one thing I don't like on my AR50 is the muzzle blast back into my face.... things like that you have to work around.

Jeff

Long range articles just induce the average nimrod to get into trouble and make the world all the more unsafe for those that might be hunting in the general area...

Because when the average nimrod misses the target at 600 yds, he thought he could hit, most don't know.. don't care.. where their bullet might end up going..

long range shooting articles and videos.. induce idiots to be more idiotic! and more dangerous to other hunters in the area...

You make a very compelling case but if I post something like that folks will throw rocks at me. You are of course 100% correct.

You don't need written words to make idiots do stupid things, they find a way all on their own.

Hey Jeff!

I did a little editing for brevity on your post; hope that's OK.

After hunting season this year I may sway scopes around. It would be interesting to see, for instance, what I could do on my 30-06 with that 6x18 Leupold... but I've got things pretty solid and predictable and working on my rifles right now and I don't want to mess with them this "close" to hunting season (hey, bear in less than a month!). I'm superstitious that way I guess.

A bolt gun in .308 can be fairly tiring after a while, I agree. My big heavy DPMS is a real pussycat. The thing I fight with that rifle is the trigger, which is the stock trigger worked on to bring it to 3 lbs but it ain't no Jewell, and the "sproing" of the buffer spring next to my head. That's disturbing some days, others not. But the recoil is negligable.

I bet one of these big heavy DPMS AR-10's in .260 would be a cool long-range messaround rifle!

Thanks for the advice. I'm listening!

-jeff

Jeff

Man-- you just hit a huge button for me in your last post.

If you hear the sproing of the AR10-- you are a far way from being close to perfect on your form and shots. If you are hearing that your subconscious brain is not where its supposed to be and you are not nearly shooting up to your capability!!
If I start to hear the sproing, I can write off that shot or group, its almost guaranteed!!

BTW I type so fast and am in such a hurry, my posts usually do need editing.....

Jeff

I don't doubt I'm a ways from my potential.

That's an interesting subject in itself. I know some days I hardly even feel the recoil of even my .338, and other days it seems like everything is whackin' me. There's so much going on with an AR with the bolt slinging back and forth and the buffer spring sproinging that I admit I am concious of all that to some degree. Not in a negative way; part of me knows all that is soaking up recoil! :-)

I'm a decent rifleman. I don't think i have it in me to ever be "great". I'm wired a little shaky for that. I practice a lot and that really helps.

-jeff

I just read the article, amazing that only 1 out of 30 folks could hit a 12" circle at 300 yards.....

From a REST!? And these were gun people, not random population?

That is appalling.

-jeff

I could hit a 12" gong with a mirror and the rifle over my shoulder at 300..........

I'd think most good shooters should be able to do the mirror trick, I suspect that there must be damn few good shooters in reality though...Sure isn't hard to hold a rifle on a moose some 400 yards off and take a picture with a digital camera at the same time leaning on an alder.....

Jeff-- you say you hear all that but not in a negative way-- but if you hear it, or see the brass ejecting etc.... you are not where you need to be. Trust me. I used to laugh-- years of shooting later I now know the ones that taught me were/are right.

Jeff

I'm gonna buy a hand mirror tomorrow, time to try that trick...

BH will spot for you.