Experienced varmint shooters, especially wood or rockchuck slayers .....

I have a .243 M700 I picked up to have made up into a long-range anti-rockchuck rig. Thought when I got it I would stay with the .243 Winchester as my cartridge of choice, but I do have an opportunity .....

What cartridge would you long-distance varmint slayers choose if you were building a dedicated shooter for 'chucks or whatever other vermin you were trying to hit at 400-500-600 yards?

Of course the M700 action in question is a short action with a .473 diameter bolt, and when my smith builds my rig I'll have him put in a blind magazine floor. Weight isn't a concern, nor trying to keep the barrel light weight.

In .243 caliber I would expect to shoot bullets NO heavier than 80-85 grains, and in a .257 caliber cartridge choice - bullets not heavier than 85-90 grains.

I hope to develop a rifle-round-load-combo that will generate 3400-3500fps at the muzzle and can hit chucks at distances further than I'm presently capable. But that's part of the purpose of my project - to learn how to shoot that far!

Cartridges I would consider .....

std .243 Winnie
.243 AI
std 6mm Remington
6mm Ackley I
.257 Rbts
.257 Rbts AI

.224 duties will be handled by a .223R, and I'm not interested in jumping up to .264 cal.

What say you? Comments please?

What cartridge would you choose? Please include barrel dimensions and make? Twist rates? Favorite boolits?

This rig will be for shooting at vermin in the western mountain states, and not at all for any deer or big game.

Thanks in advance.

Go with the 243 AI.

Your biggest issue will not be with having enough ooomph at the extended range, but delivering a bullet that will buck the wind.

I would lean towards the 243 AI with the slowest burning powder that will deliver an 85/87/90 grain bullet.

You could run a 75gr VMax out of a regular old 257Bob at 3400 or so, works good on Idaho rockchucks... grin

Something to consider is being able to spot your own shots. This is a topic I have been meaning to start but since it applies to long range shooting I will present it here.

As of late I have been able to spot shots made on game. Now I might be wrong about this but it started when I got the 243 Kimber Montana and shot the 58 gr bullets. I think its the high comb of the Kimber, fast barrel time, and firing the shots with the scope set at a lower power.

All that I am saying is that if your stock has not been already selected that you pick one with a high comb and perhaps a scope height greater than the typical 1.5" over the bore.

I hope all this is relevant to what you want to accomplish.

As to the bullets I would select a 6mm twisted to shoot the long high BC bullets available these days along with a cartridge that would not wear the barrel fireforming brass.

Good luck and keep us informed with how your project is evolving.

I'd favor a big cased 22 , like the 22/6mm , with a fast twist and shooting such bullets as the 75 gr A-max .

StubbleDuck,
My favorite for that type of work is the 22 CHeetah.I have two and a third in the works.Mine always run the orginial set up of a 1-16 twist.Pretty much always run a 52g Berger at about 4100 with IMR 4064.I know that this does not fit the profile of a long range head popper.But you will be very hard pressed to find a more effective round for under 600 yards.Nelson Berger built my first one in 1985.
There are some draw backs.Brass is hard to find now and the case is alot of work.Barrel life is short.That being said 243 cases work fine and you will get 600 rounds before velocity starts to drop alittle.Accuracy stays pretty consistant.Accuracy?
Hammonds built my second one and it would put 5 rounds into a .25 at 4260 fps.I get much better case life at 4100 fps.Its not uncommen to get 25 reloads per case.
In the field you have to see it,to believe it.Theres like a clock in your head.You pull the trigger and at say 500 yards.You wait for the bullet to "get there".With the Cheetah its just instant.I mean right now.Takes some getting used to.At 600 yards a Berger bullet exits a chuck every time.... ask me how I know?
I know it does not "fit" the conventional mold, but in over 30 some years, its the most effective round i've found.
dave

Here is an Option sell your 700 and buy this.http://cqbarms.com/photos/albums/userpics/40full.jpg
It is on http://www.predatormastersforums.com website and would be an excellent choice for a long range rifle.

6mm AI run a Wyatt box to set the bullets out or run it as a single shot�

240 Weatherby...If you want a fast 6mm go all the way! The rest of the 6mm's just split hairs (which this gun looney does all the time!).


Dan

StubbleDuck



Why?? You are ruling out up front the best class of bullets for long range shooting.
FWIW, do the .243 AI in a 1:8" twist barrel, and throat it for the 115 DTAC or 105 AMAX. These bullets will out fly and out kill any of the lighter offerings at ranges out past 400 yards or so. 1200-1400 yds is not out of the question for these bullets, where the lighter bullets start dropping off quick out past 600...If you want to discuss this issue on the phone, PM me your number and we'll talk... CJ

Won�t fit in his action.

Rem 6mm AI - a little more capacity than the 243AI. There's not much that's not been done with a 6mm bullet.

After you select the caliber, you'll have drop tables developed in no time at all. Your big enemy will be wind drift, and using lightweight bullets in any sub 6.5 caliber will make it worse.

Ditto what Jamison said.

Wayne

A 243/284 would be interesting, would be close to a 240 Weatherby. the 240 wont fit in a short action.

Doc

"I have a .243 M700 I picked up to have made up into a long-range anti-rockchuck rig. Thought when I got it I would stay with the .243 Winchester as my cartridge of choice, but I do have an opportunity ....."

I stand corrected...I need to read a little more carefully before shelling out advice.

How about a 250 Savage AI. The round is short, inherently accurate and I believe one of P.O.'s favorites.

Dan

Dan

I'll second the fast twist and heavy bullets if longer shots are possible. I don't understand why anyone would handicap them selves with light bullet when better ones are there....
I have experience with those issues when there were no good LR bullets in 224 for the 223..... and now I shoot 90 jlks in the 223...

Jeff

The A-max's have the BC andd frangibility to be the bullet to build a long range chuck gun around. The ranges you listed are chump change for a fast twist 22-250 or the AI version with 75 gr. a-max's. All things considered I don't think there is a finer long range chuck cartridge/bullet combo.

Here the game. 75 gr. A-max carnage

I know the 22-250 wasn't listed in your inital choice....but I have to agree with FVA, I have an 1-8"tw 22-250 and when you are slinging 75amax's, 400-600 yards is chump change. It would probably be my choice for what you want to do. Good luck with whatever you decide on.

You have a .243. That's just fine. I have a .22 ppc, and it is accurate beyond description. I would not hesitate to sight in some 52 grain Bergers at 400 yards for woodchucks, heck I shoot them out to 100 with a bow. You've got a good cartridge, you find out what it'll do on paper and you may be set already. If I had to pick a cartridge out of all cartridgedom to shoot woodchucks at 400 yards, I'd look at .243 Win. Just start with good bullets.

6BR........

especially with the bullets you suggested. low recoil, accuracy and extended barrel life...

or the 243 in either guise with the above mentioned fast twist and 105 moly's.. that has got to be one of the sexiest cartridges on the planet loaded with those 105's

woofer

Stubbleduck, I'm in about the same boat you are. I want to learn to shoot longrange and I have a .243. My plan is to shoot the .243 till the barrel pukes, then rebarrel to something for longer range. From all my reading the .243 is good to 600 easily. Why burn out an expensive barrel learning to shoot, provided that your present rifle has the accuracy to shoot further than you can?

Dave.

LR Chuck

It seems you want to stick with a 243 bore size and that's a very good choice. I have a standard 243 with a 30" Hart barrel and a 8" twist to handle the bigger bullets such as the 115gr Tubbs.
I also have an improved 6mm and a 6mm/284 that I shoot 1000 yard matches with. Both have 30" barrels and the 6mm Imp (heavy gun) has given me ten shot 6" groups on an occasion or two at Williamsport. I know for a fact the 243 with the Tubbs bullets will penitrate a 5" diameter bowling pin at 1000 yards with no problems.
There's no 22 cal bullet that will give you the BC of the heavy 6mms which as you know will buck the wind better at extended range.
Even my 22/284 (30" barrel 8 twist) with the 80 gr bullets will not do what the 6mm (243) will do using the heavy bullets.
With a rig using the 243 or 6mm Imp case, a longer barrel and an 8 twist, your capable of reaching out to 1000 yards and beyond if you want to.
You may say you want a rifle for LR shooting at 400, 500, or 600 yards but in reality once you reach that range you "will" want to go further.
IMHO---stick with the 6mm you'll be glad you did. The Remington action will work fine with the 243, 6mm imp or the 6/284.

Later and good luck with your decision.
Darryl

Certainly nothing wrong with a fast twist 243. I'd be curious as to the whomp factor those high BC target bullets have on critters at extended range. Penetration doesn't impress me and a woodchuck with a mediocre hole through it that makes it back to the hole don't count in my book. I'd also guess the .224 A-max has a higher BC than those 80's you were shooting in your 22/284.
Of course you can shoot the 105 gr. a-max in the a 243 about 300 fps. slower than the 22-250 will push a 75 A-max. Both calibers will benefit from a longer barrel velocity wise. Nah, on balance give me a 22-250,make mine an AI, pushing 75's at 3300 without having to lean on it, particularly in a longer barrel, and I'll take the moderate recoil/maximum red mist and dial in the dope..
Blue print wise with weight not an issue Mcmillan A5, Krieger twisted 1 in 8, 24" Remington varmint contour, 22-250AI. FWIW.

Last 3 years I've been using a 257 Roberts built on a M77 Mk 1 LA, standard twist Lilja 24" stainless barrel, McMillan 'R' stock, and the B&C BG reticle in a 2.5-8x Vari-X III. I load the 110 grain AccuBond. I haven't poked anything much past 425 yards mostly due to opportunity and terrain.

Thank you Gentlemen, ALL OF YOU! ......

Everyone has had some serious and well-experienced comments to make.

Thanks! I appreciate your posts.



The rifle/action I have is a 20" bbl'd action from a Youth Model I picked up for the donor action, so presently it isn't much good for intense grouping and ballistics.

I'm pretty green at LR 'chuck or vermin sniping, but I've gleaned most of what I think I know from a book called "The Accurate Varmint Rifle," (Boyd Mace) that I think is well written. Its about shooting in the Western states, and goes into a fair amount of detail regarding cartridges - conventional and wildcats, actions, barrels, stocks (designs), mounts, and quite a bit about optics and improving optics, but also reloading - especially when trying to thread a needle at extended ranges.

Mace's book is not a rag about all the favorite shooting buds and their exploits. It really does spend a lot of time explaining how to get started shooting vermin at ranges beyond the average shooters' abilities. And its from Mace's critiques of the cartridges I listed that I came up with the bullet weights first mentioned.

Of course several of you make good points for examining and choosing heavier VLD-type bullets for the distances I want to aspire to - that you already know what you're doing.

I appreciate also that several of you like the .224 Cheetah's or .22-250's abilities (gotta be some Swift lovers in there too I'd hope ). And I was glad to see mention of the PPC-rounds, the Weatherby .240 and even the hotrods built on the .284 case.

I'll probably stay with the .243 caliber, but what books or magazines could I study to further design a working LR-chuck rig?

Plus while it's indeed possible I might become interested in 1000yd shooting, for now I'll concentrate on rockchucks and jackrabbits and prairie dogs.

Thanks all. And Merry Christmas to everyone.

StubbleDuck;

I'd say a conversation with dogzapper and BoydHeaton will likely gain you far more than any book.

The recipe is a top notch barrel installed by a smith that knows what he is doing, bedded into a good stock with a good trigger. When thinking cartridge/bullet think more impact velocity than muzzle velocity. They are far from the same, light started fast vs. high BC started slower, and swap around quicker than you think.
Here is one of my long range chuck rigs. It is a 223 WSSM with a 1 in 8 , fluted #5 Krieger, 26" long in a mcmillan Sako Varmint hunter stock, RifleBasix trigger. It also wears a Luepold LR 4.5-14x40 LR now. The Mcmillan Remington Varmint stock is very similar. It is a great rifle to shoot prone or off the bench but not the easiest offhand.


As my style is to walk out of sight to various points where I can shoot very far, I often have offhand opportunities and wanted something lighter while not giving up long range capabilities.
This 22-250AI is my stab at that and I love this rifle. Mcmillan Classic Edge stock, SA 700, Krieger #2 twisted 1 in 8, 22" long. Tuned older style Remington trigger. 3.5-10x40. Haven't gone over 800 yards with either yet but within 500-800 yards I have great confidence in these rigs and many kills.

Dang, gotta start spelling Mcmillen wrong too so as not to get those annoying highlights.

Stubble-for some time now I've been a student of long range chuckin as well. Not so much the last couple of years but there was a while there where I really got after them.

Best year was 457 of them if I recall right.

I found this to be true for me and my way of going about business.

Inside of 400 there isn't much challenge to it, more of an execution unless I was sitting and or offhand.

I also found out quickly which round would anchor a chuck out past 350 or so consistently and which wouldn't. I like things to be decisive and dramatic and not just putting the old chucks to sleep.

I did not work with one 22 centerfire that I would use again today for the taking of chucks in the 400 and out range. I also did not work with any of the quick twist big 22's with the 80's and such either.

To my way of thinking rounds for serious work on chucks and yotes begin with the 6's and go on up. Rounds I've used a lot are the 243, 240 Page, 6mm, 6/06, 25/06, 6.5/06, 270, 7 RM, 7 Mashburn Super, 300 Win and Wby and the 340 Wby.

I really liked the 6's thru the big 7's as they were a bit more user friendly than the bigger cases if one was gonna shoot 50-100 rounds in a day. (when we got bored and couldn't find a chuck we'd beat up on rocks).

That said, I'd encourage you to look at the 243 AI, 6/284, 7/08AI and the 284. I've not had super luck in getting a 284 based round to feed in a manner which I feel is acceptable for a hunt rifle but for chucks I could do with them just fine.

With the 6's I'd try to run the 95 NBT if you used a 10 twist. However I'd most likely do a 243 AI with a quick twist and shoot the 105 AM or the Sierra or Bergers. With the 7's I'd try either the 140 NBT and or the 130 SMK. Probably so very good Berger out there to give a go as well.

If you have any other questions don't hesitate to ask, if I can give you thoughts I'll sure try.

This is a very very fun and enlightening world that you're stepping into.

Dober

99.9% of our GroundHog hunting is done with a Factory Savage M12BVSS in 243 Win shooting 105 A-Max's.Here is a little vid of shots between 250 and 990 yards...Don't feel there is a need for anything bigger than that inside a grand
Click here to watch trent-video-final-0002-54

Dober

I like the way you think 7mm Mashburn the big .300s, 340!!! Them chucks look like they could be right down dangerous don�t need them charging you�

Right now doing another big 33 my next build after that is going to be a 6mm-06 AI

Larry

JoeCo0l-I didn't mention the 416 Taylor and Rigby nor did I mention the 375's we used. A mans gotta protect himself properly right!

I always kind of thought that chucks truly wanted to be gymnists....<g>

Dober

Stubble-one more thought would be a 257 Roberts Ai with a quick twist in it.

Dober

Just use Mickey or McSwirley, as appropriate....

As for a 'smith that knows his schit re: long range shooting and amazing accuracy, here's one: http://spencerriflebarrels.com/

Check his "Virginia Hog Rifle" (as in groundhogs). That, in .243AI, would be wicked on anything.

I'd also go for either a bigger 22 with the VLD's as FVA has shown, a big 6 of some sort--probably 6AI, and the smallest bullet i'd use would be the 87 V-Max up to and including the new 117 DTAC.

I have a 243AI with a 20 inch Douglas bbl (1:12 twist) fat as a truck axle that shoots 75gr A-Max's to a laser-ranged 700yds inside 1/2 MOA all day long. McMillan A-2 stock. Love it! The only downside I've found is that this is the only bullet that will shoot little-bitty groups.

The 6's, 6.5's, and 7's would be my top caliber choices.

6x.284 with a 1-14" twist.

Friend o' mine, gun shop owner type, had a 6x.284 reamer built so the neck would just clear 6.5x.284 Lapua brass necked down w/o having to neck turn. Size, load, and go. Beautiful stuff. Anyway, to start with the idea was quick twists and VLDs for longer range shooting but it turned out that combination ran into pressure problems without gaining more than about 50 fps over the .243 AI using the same bullets. It wasn't 'til they got the idea to use that reamer for chambering slow twist barrels for lighter bullets that things got interesting. In his gun he clocked the 60 grain Sierras at right on 4400 fps and was still getting 5-7 reloads per case.

I wanted a bit higher BC than the 60 grain Sierra, but still pretty decent velocity. I mostly shot the 70 grain ballistic tip at about 3850. I experimented with the 58, 65, and 75 grain VMAX as well. Liked the 65, not quite as accurate as the Nosler, but for modest range, wow. Actually, wow all the way around.

So, anyway, I think 6x.284 is a great cartridge, dies and brass are easy to get, etc. The only challenge is that the load data that's out there is mostly for a 1-10 twist and really doesn't unleash the potential of the cartridge when matched to a 1-14 twist.

Tom

I am really surprised nobody has mentioned the 6x47 Lapua. I am in the process of building a Long Range gun myself and after a lot of research, I decided on the 6x47 Lapua. It's a great cartridge and definitely worth looking into.

Dan

Tom-theres a lot of ways to skin a cat no doubt. But, a 14 twsit for a long range big 6 is one of the last things I'd do....?


Dober

I have two favorites for such work. It is really hard to beat a tight twist .22-250 or the AI version. I like them both a lot wtih the 75 grain AMAX. No finer bullet for that kind of work to 800 yards and change. I have shot some unbelievable groups with them at 1,000 yards. They still expand perfectly at that range as the previous pictures show.

My second choice is the .25-284 with either a 75 grain Vmax at over 3,700 fps or the 100 grain ballistic tip at a shade under 3,500. Both simply get there and tare stuff up on shots under a grand. For shots over a grand, then VLD's are in line, but for the ranges your are playing at, thes just work. It takes some good equipment and a good spotter for shots over 800 yards. The .243 isn't bad by any means and I used it for years, but I like the previous two much better. Flinch

TOM, nothing like driving around with the gear box stuck in reverse. I think your buddy hasn't shot much over 300 yards. I think he is simply stuck on speed and bragging about such things. A 60 grain bullet is like putting a 4 popper motor in an F350 truck. It might sound cool and run pretty fast, but when it comes to getting truck stuff done (true long range), it sucks!The guy that built it and is driving it might think it is cool, but nobody else does. I can't for the life of me see any logic in what your "gunny" friend is trying to accomplish. Flinch

Here u go--the "6mm Long Dasher"--

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/6mmbr/vpost?id=1983902

Thanks for the link, SSCoyote! Like I said, I am amazed more people aren't talking about this great little round.

Dan

I hate to sound like a rig stuck in first gear but... If the chuck hunter is not recoil or noise shy, a 300 Win or Wby or Ultra, shooting a 200 grain bullet, is just as flat as a 6 mm anything to 400 yards and flatter beyond, and is about 10 times as immune to wind drift. While I admit to missing as many as I hit beyond 600 yards, I still would use that combination if the big money was on the shooting bench.

Wayne

The 300 may be as flat shooting, but doesn't it seem like a bit overkill on a chuck? Also, such a set-up would use a lot more powder and therefore would be more expensive to shoot, so what's the point?

As for bucking the wind, most experts would agree that a bullets BC has as much to do with it's ability to do so as it's weight. Stating that a bullet is "10 times as immune to wind drift" just because it is bigger and heavier is simply not true. Sorry.

T O M hit the nail on the head, for a speedy 6mm, the 6mmx284 is the ticket. To keep things simple, the 243 AI would be the way to go.

Well, well. Ballistic coefficient does have a lot to do with wind drift, which I not only admit, but preach. That 200 grain 30 caliber has a B.C of .50 to .56, so + 1 in that category. In addition, the greater mass of the bullet resists deflection (wind drift) better than lighter bullets. To carry it further, a 50 caliber 750 grain spire point starting at about 3000 fps is flatter and less affected by wind than lesser bullets. As far as expense is concerned, if you can't afford to do it, use the time you would spend "chuckin'" and get a job as a box boy at Wally World so you can make ends meet.

Wayne

So you are saying bullets of the same B.C. but differing weight, differ in wind deflection given same starting velocities?

I"m reading it to say, same BC in a 224 bullet and a 338 bullet, at same velocity, net same wind drift. Which is the way I understand it.
BC relates to aerodynamic shape, and the shaplier they are the faster they get down range. Wind drift is simply a matter of time of flight.
Now what will vary, IMHO, is impact... the impact of a 338 vs a 224, will be much different when hitting the animal, though I have not shot small animals with big guns much.

Jeff

"In addition, the greater mass of the bullet resists deflection (wind drift) better than lighter bullets."

In addition to what?

Who was the last guy to win the 1000 yard Wimbleton witha .22 or 6mm caliber rifle? Duh?

Wayne

It doesn't really fit what your after but I've been using my 260 with 140g MK's. It's consistant and does pretty well in the wind from my 26" barrel at 2850 fps. I think I'll try the 140g bergers this spring because of the higher BC. I'd go with a 260 over a 257 bob but that's just me, I'm a 6.5 fan.

I used to use my 6mm with 55g NBT's at 4050fps over Benchmark but I've had better luck past 500 with the 260.

Bb

Bb-now if you run 95 NBT's out of your 6 it'll do very well at range. I use the 55 NBT a bit out of my 6/06 but mainly for about 6 weeks a winter when I am trying to be pelt friendly on yotes.

The 95 Berger would be another excellent one to give a go.

Dober

You didn't answer the question. Do you think differing bullet weights with same B.C./launch velocity = differing wind deflection?

To move an object (bullet) out of it's path requires a force. Force (F) equals Mass (m) times acceleration (a) or F= m * a

So, yes, it takes a larger force (wind) to move a heavier bullet out of it's path than it does a lighter one. Happy now?

Wayne

True enough. Many a 'yote in the Horseshoe Hills has expired due to that exact combination.

Wayne

The answer is no.

Two bullets with the same BC and same muzzle velocity will drift the same regardless of bullet weight.

Doesn't a heavier bullet have more surface area for the wind to exert it's "force" upon, transmitting more vectoring force to the bullet. I'm with JasonK on this one. I think 2 bullets of different weights with the same BC would drift the same, but I've been wrong before.

Bb

BurleyBoy,

Do you know a riflesmith by the first name of Tim that works out of Rupert?

Ding, ding. We have a winner. Was gonna let ole Wayne stay proudly ignorant.

Peep-the Shoes are just a bit away from me, what a super place if one can get the right access!

Lets be veddy veddy quiet about this one...

Dober

actually I am looking for just the perfect section of land in there for a client of mine

Mackay_Sagebrush,

I know Tim, he hangs out at my friends pawn shop quite a bit. He's a difficult guy to talk to (not too friendly towards most people) but he's built guns for several friends and they seem to shoot.

I live in Rexburg now but I'm in Burley a few times a month and could get ahold of him if you need me too. He built a 6.5 WSSM for a friend recently and it really shoots. He also built the same friend a 416 WSM and a few other guns. They always seem to be playing with some new idea. A while back they necked down a 50 cal spotter case to shoot 408 cheytac bullets. It looks like a big short mag and they say it shoots real well at long range.

Bb

BurleyBoy,

We have friends in common. Tim has screwed on a few tubes for me. Most recent was a Lilja in 260. He is a good old boy. The owner of RTP and I used to work for the same agency before his accident. He is a good guy as well.

I appreciate the offer to get ahold of Tim, but no need. I am overseas right now and my free time is a bit limited.

I'm able to bust ghogs at 400+yds with my 220 Swift.

can't we all just get along?

Rodney King

I ain't shot the wimbledon yet.....

FVA

Poor wording on my part.... I suspect at the time I was thinking, heavier bullets usually have a higher bc....
When in reality its like it is, BC is the only answer.

Jeff

Jeff,
I know your a knower amongst the knowers.
FVA

FVA

Freely admit to my mistakes, don't want there to be the wrong air about me!

Jeff

I guess it depends on what Loooooong is. If it's past 600 yards, a bullet starting at about 3000 plus and a B.C. of .50 or more has always increased my kill percentage.

Wayne