Using a .308win for long range whitetail deer. Berger has hunting VLDs from 155gr to 185gr that seem to make sense in the 308. Based on terminal velocity and energy for distances between 400 & 800 yards, what weight bullet fits this application the best????? The 168? Thanks!

A 168g slug will be the best.

Since you are looking to shoot deer sized targets out to 800 yards, you might expand your bullet selection beyond Bergers.

Nothing wrong with them but not every rifle shoots them well and there are several brands of match and plastic tipped 168g slugs have just as good of BCs as Bergers.

168g Ballistic tips & Accurbonds, Hornady SSTs & Amaxes etc.. are all going to do just as good of a job as the Bergers will on Deer.

The main thing is ACCURACY of both you and the rifle. Don't limit yourself to just one model of slug to get the accuracy recipe you need for your gun.

You might look at the 155g Scenars as well. .500 BCs and even more speed out of a .308..The "rumor" is they kill deer pretty well..

I disagree, having shot them with the aforementioned bullets, I like the performance of the Berger best.

Whatever.

Drink that Berger koolaid.

They are not magic. Just bullets.

Jimster.....

Dennis stating he has shot them all with the aforementioned and likes the performance of Berger bullets best is not drinking the koolaid.

It's called the empirical method, or observational approach.

It's not magic, it's science!

Try it....

I have not shot Bergers out of a 308 on deer however, I have shot Federal LE tactical 168gr loads at various targets at various ranges out to and including 500yds. This was all "once upon a time ago" but the 168's did very well out to those distances and were well within minute of deer. I would expect Bergers to do just as well in a crafted handload. I can't speak for terminal performance on game but there are plenty of those that swear by them and at them. Best bet, load em and try em then report back. Good luck and good hunting.

I have a different opinion altogether. Every rifle I've tried Bergers in (11 now) have shot them better than any other bullet (although some marginally). I won't ever use them again. Shot my Montana muley with them last year - had to shoot him twice(1st shot at 150 yards and the second at 225). 140 grain VLD's out of my 6.5 Weatherby blew 5 gallon bucket sized holes in that deer. On a 200 lb. muley I ended up with 39 lbs of good boned out meat. Both entrance wounds on front shoulder. 1st took out both front shoulders, second was angling and took out chest and an entire rear ham.

Killer,

Good point, but I'll bet the 308 175 or 168 isn't going fast enough to blow up.

And I don't have a dog n this fight, because I have not and probably will not (just 'cause i don't have any) shoot a deer with the Bergers.

I'm just arm chair quarterbacking...

Those results sound very similar to results I have seen with early production Hornady SST's. Just curious and not second guessing you but your first shot seems like it should have done the trick, why the second. Was he still snow plowing away with both front shoulders out of the game. Just guessing so with the distance variation of the two shots. Figured a shot taking out both front shoulders would down a deer. Just wondering.

"Davester"...

No "Science" there at all.

Just his opinion based on no proof of anything.

I'm glad he likes them.

I am also damn glad that Nolser,Hornady, Seirra ,Barnes ,Lapua and others make slugs that shoot and work just as well- if not better.

"having shot them" is opinion with no proof? I took that to mean having shot deer with all of them. And, from Dennis's reputation, I'd think that is what he meant.

If I'm wrong, I withdraw my sarcastic, late-night banter....

I'm gonna toss this out because its worked for me so far. I don't like destructive bullets at all. But I've been testing 185 TARGET bergers in my 308 with 26 inch tube. I've now shot hogs, javelina, deer from about 70ish yards out past 500... It does what I want so far... caliber in, nickel or so out, damage in between.

I have talked with berger RE using target vs hunting, and seems like I've simply found that I'm not even going to try their version of hunting due to excess(to me) damage.

I've always been a less destruction heavier bullet type of guy generally speaking though... with some exceptions.

BTW you mention 800 yards.. don't forget about BC... the bullet has to perform and such, but typically speaking when you get to longer distances, lighter bullets are NOT your friend in the wind... I"d NEVER use a 168 at 600 or beyond, if I had a choice.

Thats a broad statement, but say a 155 has the same bc as a 168 which some do, then you retain BC and GAIN speed... thats an offsetting application then... but typically I"ve had the most luck with heavier slugs in the wind and at longer distances...

All those bullets are not interchangeable. Period. Some of them are quite suitable for hunting deer I will agree. I did not start using Bergers until I had plenty of good friends who tried them first, giving glowing accolades.

As far as BCs go, the Berger is best of that group. I have most experience with the SST of that group. I shoot a 6.5-284. I use a 130 Berger and 130 Norma Diamond Line. If you compare those listed bullets, the SST has a BC of .485, the Accubond, .488 and the Berger, .552.

My buddy just built a long range gun and was waiting on his scope, he had a 7 RUM built (Red Rock Precision) and his March scope hadn't come in. He decided to use his back up rifle for a bear hunt last week. His back up is a Tikka in 270 WSM. He loaded up some 150 Bergers. We went out and sighted in. 1/4 MOA @ 300 yds. We were both impressed.

He killed a bear last week that squares a little over 7'2" and had an estimated live weight of 500-550#. I don't remember what the girth taped right now.

He told me that he will never use anything but Berger bullets again. He, and those he was with, were that impressed.

I have shot antelope with the 129 SSTs as well as 150 SSTs. Contact damage was horrific if the range was too short. I ruined one cape on a shoulder shot. The Bergers have never blown up on contact before.

I have reasons for liking them. There is nothing short of a custom bullet more accurate and they killed medium game as well as anything made.

Would I take them on a coastal Brown bear hunt?? Not likely, I would expect my shots to be close and high BC the least of my concerns.

Here is Todd's bear

Dennis.

Nice Berger Advertisement there.

READ THE OPS QUESTION- he is talking about .30 Caliber bullets for the .308.! NOT 130g 6.5 slugs. He is also talking about taking DEER at 400 to 800 yards.

In a 168g .30 cal slugs, the Nosler Ballistic tips, AccuaBonds , Hornady SSTs A-Maxes have .475 BCs- SAME as Berger hunting VLDs. Sierra Match kings are .463, Lapua 155g Scenars are .500. Every damn one of those bullets will kill a DEER just as dead as any 168g .30 Berger will at 400 to 800 yards.

So much for BCs.

As to preference on game- Nosler Ballistic tips and Seirra match kings were killing deer stone dead at long ranges long before Berger Hunting VLDs were even introduced.

Berger bullets are great bullets, but there are about a half dozen other firms make equally good long range bullets.

Jim how much game have you killed with a Berger?

Most of my experience with Bergers, I admit, is with 264 caliber bullets. My only experience with match bullets in 30 caliber is the 168s, Sierra and Berger. Didn't realize the BCs weren't in line with the smaller Bergers.

I took a 300 mag to Mexico and used 168 SMKs as did all others in camp but one. David Miller now uses TSXs or TTSXs. The SMKs worked OK but the first shot did not anchor the buck and I shot him a second time as he ran off about 3" forward the first shot. Neither bullet did too much damage to the cape. From what I have experienced with Bergers since, I would have expected much more internal damage with them and possibly no need for the second shot.

I don't see the point in using light for caliber match bullets myself. I use the high BC bullets as I am minimizing my windage issues in a long shot situation. I have learned a lot since those days and laser range finders have removed the need for ultimate velocity and shown advantage of high BC bullets for long range shooting.

I have killed many, many deer with 165 grain ballistic tips when they were the only game in town. I quit using them when a neck shot blew the head completely off a trophy coues whitetail buck. I also guided a guy who shot a 5x5 bull elk with a 165 grain BT that blew up on the shoulder, knocked the bull down which promptly jumped up and rejoined the herd. He was last seen several hundred yards away- still with the herd.

I shot an antelope with the SST from a 300 magnum. The results were aweful- ruined cape and no edible meat on the front end. I shot another antelope with the same load but at much longer distance and results were very acceptable (borrowed rifle- long story)

I have had excellent results from Berger bullets with never a blow-up, even at 200 yds ranges. I will stick with what has worked for me.

All of those bullets will probably work fine for his deer hunting but I think the Berger has the best accuracy potential of the listed bullets and has proven to be a much better than engineered killer of medium sized game.

I only have one 308, which is my son's and we mostly use factory ammo in it. He killed a cow elk at 550 yds with it using Federal tactical loads (165 TBBC) and his bear last year using Norma 180 Oryx loads. Both proved to be excellent choices.

We can debate this forever but my experience with the Bergers has been better than with the others.

Dennis,

You have first season next week?

I have shot several pigs and deer with the 168 bergers from my .308. They work about the same as anything else, put them in the right spot and stuff dies.

Yes, unit 23. Heading out Monday for the duration. Wish I had more time to bear hunt but it took 6 points to get this tag! I have yet to find a buck over 100 in there this fall.

Good luck. Hope you get a big boy...

The first shot definitely would have killed him, but we were on a private lease and he was making his way down the hill towards the neighbors property. Didn't want him to get away so put another in him. Here's the front shoulder damage - this was the entrance.



And at 29 1/2 inches wide, I didn't want him to get away!




I know it sounds like sour grapes to be complaining about bullet performance on a dead deer, but I actually like to eat the things.

I would use 175 gr. Hunting VLD , better BC's and more retained LR energy than 165's. I will be using 175 VLD's this season out of my 308 deer for the first time. My gun loves them at the range , one hole groups.

.30 cal VLD's don't come in 165 grs.

If you're comparing 168's to 175's, run some numbers for us to show the difference, if it's anything to sneeze at.

BTW, welcome to 24HCF.

Yeah at reasonable hunting range of the 308 WIN. there is probably not enough difference to sneeze at. Shooting targets way out there the 175's would take over.

How much?

Enough to sneeze at.

At 800 yards, what difference have you seen between the bullets?

At sea level the 168 vld drifts 59.32 in a 10 mph @800 MV of 2750
the 175 vld started at 2650 drifts 58.66 under the same conditions. I would say you won't see any real benefits till you get to the 185 or heavier bullets. The 175 LRBT drifts 55.96 in the same conditions. The 185 LRBT drifts 51.64 started at 2600 in the same conditions. All these were figured using Bergers ballistics program and Bryan Litz's BCs.

Not long range, but I've had good success using the 155gr Berger.
Left a softball size exit hole shown here.

And a few Africa kills also....

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5344708/1

That's an awesome buck!

Killertraylor,

That entrance hole looks to me like the result of blow-back from bone fragments. I've seen similar damage from a lot of bullets that hit shoulder bone, and on occasion the bullet was even a Barnes X.

I've seen a lot of animals killed with Berger VLD's and far more typical is an entrance hole that can hard to locate, with almost no meat damage.

Thanks for the information and I think it points out a few things to consider if one wants to give the VLD a try as a big game bullet.

I really believe that a maximum muzzle velocity of 3200fps +/- is about the highest I have consistently seen great result in both accuracy and reliable killing performance. I think KillerTaylor was running around 3400fps in his 6.5 Weatherby and that is most likely a little too much of a good thing.

Combine high muzzle velocity with a 150yd shot and you are going to get some pretty serious damage. I have to say that the loss of the ham from a bullet hitting on the shoulder shows pretty good penetration, in my opinion, and most any modern cartridge is going to be pretty destructive to a mule deer�s ham if it hits the ham.

Berger increased the thickness of the jacket on the target line of bullets because some competitors would smoke a bullet on the way to the target while shooting fast strings of fire to try and stay with a condition. If one wants to try the VLD and is shooting a really overbore type of cartridge then possibly the target VLD would be a better choice.

In the end for me I would say that any bullet I shot into the shoulder of a big muley that penetrated all the way to the off side ham and still had enough juice to blood shot meat worked pretty well.

As for the .308 I would recommend the 155gr as I like the slightly flatter trajectory in the mid range and really think the .308 Win is at its best inside 600yds on game, especially at low altitude.

John, any feedback on the new "Hybrid" in hunting applications?

that would be a GREAT new topic as not to hijack this thread? there are plenty of opinions here

Berger's are awesome hunting bullets,especially at long range! as is the Amax. I don't see why anybody needs a bonded bullet for deer unless it is under 200yds and smoking fast!? I would rather ride the Berger wagon than the New Bonded cart.Match the caliber and bullet weight to the game and the core-lock is plenty,but BC puts the energy down range with less drift and drop.
i do believe we are in the long range section?
carry your bonded for close and when going far your bonded bullets BC will lose.
Accubonds come close.

and the original question?
What weight Berger VLD is best fot LR deer using .308 win

the heaviest/highest Berger VLD BC bullet that will reliably stabalize with your rifles twist,period.

The 6.5's are usually twisted fast too, like 1/8 or so. Fast twist plus high MV really has to crank up the centrifugal G-forces on the bullet. No doubt it would nuke in dramatic fashion as compared to something like a 308 Win pushing 190s out of a 1/12 bbl, at a modest 2600 fps or so.

I have had 130 Berger blow up inside a 100 yds when pushed to 3200 and that is just hitting air. Barrel only had 73 rounds through it too!

Scenars and Normas held up fine. Didn't have any yellow box Bergers to try.

I think this barrel might have got a rough spot in it after I had it melonite treated as it would throw the 130s out of a group and some would blow. They aren't very forgiving to anything scratching on their sheer jackets!

I have had a lot of problems with the 6mm 115s, 7mm 180s, and .224 90gr bergers blowing up, but the 6.5s seem a little tougher jacketed to me. I have been pushing the 140s at 330 out of an 8T 28 inch kreiger 6.5 WSM. Only bloodied the rifle once (actually it was the wife) on a 450 yard antelope, but I was pretty impressed with its performance. I have not taken it out any further than 1150 but my wife shot some amazing groups in some strong but steady winds. I think I had 8 MOA of windage dialed in for her and she shot two softball size groups all around the bullseye. I just thought she could shoot her 6mmx284 and her 25x284. She shot those groups standing on a step ladder leaning on the side of my truck where I had the rifle in one of those cheapest caldwell rests sitting on the bed cover. I am going to try the .30 cal 230gr bergers this week in a 30-338 Lapua improved, I hope they hold together as well as the 6.5s.

BTW just as a warning you need a long throat to push the 140s 3300 out of a 6.5WSM I would not try it without a very long COAL.

I have filled several large meat sheds with the 165 grain Nosler ballistic tip shot at 2,800 fps. I have killed moose and elk at 20 yards with full penetration, deer and elk at over 500 with complete pass through shots as well. Out of all the big game animals I have taken with this bullet, only two took a step and that was about all they took.

I don't have any experience with the Bergers, so I can't comment. I have everything I need in the ballistic tip at 2,700-2,800 fps. The BC of this bullet isn't anything to sneeze at either. I don't mind dialing in two more clicks at 500 yards Flinch

SLOW BTs have actually surprised me lately. 30 cal 125 at 7.62x39 speeds acts like a normal good bullet. Push em too fast and they are explosive crap wasting meat. I'm not happy about explosive crap wasting meat.

About to have a youth test some 6mm 80 gn BTs at around 2500 fps and bet it works good.

Really appreciate the feedback. I'm sticking with Noslers for now. JohnBurns - you are right, I was running those 140's at 3410 fps in my 6.5 Weatherby. Switched that load to partitions but haven't shot a live critter to see how they hold together.

Looking at Stoney's post, it looks like the Bergers are money at lower velocity. Glad to hear it because they sure shoot great.