Hey fella's, I've got a buddy who is new to rifle shooting and he wants to get into long range shooting and hunting. We're talking 300-1000 yards. He's dead set on getting a 300 win mag. I've been trying to explain that he doesn't NEED a magnum of any flavor and that it'll be harder to learn (recoil & muzzle blast), and more expensive. I said if he absolutely needs a mag to look into a 7 rem mag or even 264 win mag but from people he's talked to at work the 7 kicks more than a 300 and the 300 won't be affected by wind as much as a 7 mag will. I tend to disagree with both statements. Im also new to long range shooting which is why i need your help! What would be ideal for shooting and hunting (whitetail & elk) at long ranges, say 400+ yard's? And between the 300 win mag and 7 rem mag, which is better overall and has the best selection of high BC bullets?

Thanks!
Cory

I hope you don't take this the wrong way. New to rifle shooting and long range hunting used in the same sentence are like nails on a chalk board.
Tell your frind to do himself and the animals a favor and get a .308 win and learn the way most of your good long range shooters and hunters have. Burn out the 308 barrel and he will be on his way to answering his own questions and learning limits and what it takes to long range hunt in a responsible way.

Things at long range go wrong faster than they do up close and although magnums will help cut wind and flatten out the ride, I always get new shooters out dialing a 308 and getting plenty to trigger time. When they are comfortable with the 308 and doing thing for themself and at the practical limit they will be ready for a 300 or 7mm mag to extend their shooting to the next level

Pm sent

Not taken in the wrong way at all. That's basically what I've been telling him to do is go for something in a 308 case. Something like 7-08 or 260. There is really no reason to get a magnum IMO especially when he's fairly new to shooting rifles. He seems to think the 300 winny is the best thing he could get and that's just not so. I told him that if he HAS to have a mag get the 7 mag. Better choice of high BC bullet's. Am i wrong?

7 rem mag would be my choice for long range shooting. As others the 308 win will work quite handily and is and has been a sniping platform for quite sometime. I started hunting and shooting a 30.06 with a 165 grain btsp at 2680 fps with a Luepold 3x9-40 Vari X I. I hit 300 without an issue and have reached to 500 yards although can't say I consistently hit with it since it was a hunting rifle and never intended to be a long range platform. Good luck to your friend and hunt ethically if he happens to pursue game with it.

Definitely the 7Mag between those two, but if he were smart he'd grab a .260, which will probably be more lethal in his hands than a .300Mag.

I don't know if he hand loads or not but either way I like the 308 above all for learning. It has low recoil and great factory match 168 and 175 in Federal and Black Hills. The 7-08 and 260 are great cartridges BUT for learning I like the 308. It is not as forgiving as a 260 with 140's or a 7-08 with a 162+ and thats why I like it, it will force you to learn to shoot conditions and when you move on you will be a better shooter for it. Long range is a constant learning sport that can humble you at any time
I like both the 300win and 7rem and both are performers with the right bullet. 7mm 162's through the new 180 Berger Hybrid and 30 cal 215 and 230 Hybrids all bring a new level of performance.
I have found over the years with the more I've learned and became comfortable with long range I often use less gun / non magnums for long range deer. Of course this depends on conditions and set up. When you mention Elk, I have my own feelings not to start a poop storm and I know fist hand some small cartridges can kill a long way out, But there are times and conditions that will cause me to grab the 338 and hit them hard with a 300 grainer and not apologize for it

If someone's gotta ask, they probably need a 308Win.

..............Is your buddy completely new to rifle shooting? Does not own any kind of hunting rifle now? If so, he is imo putting his cart well before his horse where any longer ranged hunting is concerned.

Like others have mentioned, better that he first start with a 260, a 7/08 or a 308, get his feet wet at the range, go on a few hunts here and there while getting in some long range target practice during the process.

If he is a reasonably big and strong guy who might be relatively impervious to the heavier recoiling mags and wants to jump right in right away, either the 7mm RM or the 300 Win would fill the need as long as he does his part.

Whether he wants to jump right in with one of the biggys or go instead as reco`d with a std cartridge, then either way, range work and some long range target practice would be a must before any hunt.

I started to the OP respond earlier and then thought better of it.

MontanaMarine has stated it best.

The 308 is a dandy way to start IMO.Worked for ET and I quite well on speed goats at fairly long range in Wyoming this fall...300+400 yds may seem short range to some but the 308 kills well as far as your comfort zone.

if he's dead set on a .300 mag, that's probably what he will get. That being said, you and the other dudes on here saying .308 or .260 are right.

There seem to be a number of new shooters who want a magnum of some flavor to start out with. the desire usually lasts until they've touched it off a couple of times.

Bigsqueez, no he's not "brand new" but this is his first year shooting a big game caliber rifle. I think he's been to the range two or three times shooting the Kimber Classic Select 30-06 i just sold to him. Oh, and no, he's not a very big guy at all. Id say he's pushing 5' 9" 155 pounds wet lol. He did use it to shoot a doe this season. He doesn't want to hunt with the one i sold him in fear he'll ding it up and wants a synthetic 300 mag but i told him a few times now he's much better off keeping the '06 and buying a synthetic 7-08. IMO there really isn't a need for any magnum within 400 yards. I don't own a single one anymore but am considering a 7 mag myself for out west. I probably won't get one though because my 25-06 will do everything the 7 mag will out to 350-400 for deer and elk IMO. Im better off saving my $$$ and my shoulder, and that's what im trying to explain to him. Especially since he's a new shooter. I've been hunting and shooting centerfires for 14 years, since i was 11 but didn't become a rifle loony until i was about 22 and wanted a rifle that i could do everything with and guess what? I bought a 300 winny in a M70 Supergrade and as it turned out i liked shooting my 30-06 more (and was more accurate)! That's what I'm trying to help him avoid until he gets to know more about rifles, cartridges and shooting in general. Maybe i can get him to join the Fire and discuss this first hand.
Thanks again guys.

Cory

Tell him, when he's shot the barrel out of the '06 at long range targets then he may be ready for long range big game hunting.....I started out on the good ol '06 many years ago and was lucky enough that I could take it out every day and practice with it whether it be on running jackrabbits, yotes, deer or on my 500 yard targets.....Sounds like he's really green and needs some trigger time and there's nothing wrong with the 30-06 if he handles it well. Teach him to read the wind, and give him a book on ballistics and make damn sure he's good at long range before he starts popping shots off at big game animals at extended ranges....

That's "brand new".

A 300 magnum is about the last thing he should even think about.

+1...

Tell him to Google 260 vs. 300 mag, the ret will take care of itself

If the guy want's a .300 mag. he should get one, regardless of "need". If you talk him into something else and he's not successful, he'll blame it on not getting what he wanted. If he gets a .300 mag. and has problems, it's just part of the learning curve we all go through. Who knows, someday he may think he "needs" a custom pre 64 M70 in .280AI Rem. with a 23" barrel in a McMillan stock, and everyone here will tell him what a good idea it is.

I think the question has been answered and all here have given great input.

Long range hunting is in "vogue" these days having been popularized by tv shows and equipment manufacturers pioneering a new market to find a new venue to increase sales. It's great and the American way, but it also has created some problems as have been addressed in the thread.

Long range shooting/hunting isn't "rocket science". Any intelligent person can learn to do it pretty quickly either by himself or with instruction, but the cumulative learning of handloading long and range shooting experience takes time.

My advice would be for your friend to get a .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. The light recoil will help him develop good shooting technique and habits. I also recommend a ton of long range TARGET shooting well before he attempts big game at long range. Varmints are great too.

^^^Good call Rick!

I went the way of your buddy, my first cf rifle was my .300saum. Looking back I wouldn't change a thing. Eventually I would like to be able to take game at extended ranges, but I recognize my limits. The rifle is more than capable of doing that, my skills just aren't good enough yet.

I say let him get what he wants to get. Ultimately only he can decide to stick with it or go to something else. Above all else, practice practice practice!

And that right there is the crux of why he would be far better off with a .260 or similar rifle, rather than a .300Mag...

...and as many have proven, it's quite capable to 1000 yards....and beyond!

Being able to hit targets and kill game at a 1000 yards are two totally different situations.

And he won't be able to kill game at 1000 until he can hit at 1000.

You don't learn to drive in a F-1 car, you work up to it.

I started with an 06 a long time ago. Then I just had to have a 7 mag. I traded it for a 280 and have never looked back. I love shooting my 308 too. I must have spent a small fortune on loading cartridges and practicing before I ever took what I consider to be a long poke at a living deer. That shot was only 415 yards, but conditions were perfect and I was thrilled when that 280 dropped her in her tracks. Matriarchal doe or not, she was legal and she still ranks with my others as a trophy. My best buck is 168 5/8 with an inside spread of 24 5/8, but that doe at that range was as big of a thrill for me. She ate awful good too.

I don't consider myself to be a long range hunter, but I like feeling confident when I get a chance at any legal deer over 300 yards away.

I think your friend would be better served with a 308 to begin with, but as has been said here, he will get what he has set his mind on. Magnums, for me, are over my recoil threshold for practicing much, even if I never notice recoil when shooting game. It's the practice that builds the skills and confidence. My 2 bits worth.

300WSM all the way....



If starting from stratch I would just get a couple 308's, 400-500 yards is as far as I wanna shoot right now anyway.....grin

6.5 creedmore for sure..The factory loaded 140 amax is excellent.

That's classic right there!

Well put, Shane.

Cory,

Maybe sometime I can meet up with you guys and he can shoot my 7mm mag and a .338 win mag. If it wasn't such a pain to transport everything, I've got a couple 7mm-08s, .308(s) and also just aquired a heavy barrel .308 not that long ago that's going to be my learning tool for some long(er) range rock busting.
Really giving some serious thought to ordering an A3 for the HB .308, need to find some glass for it though as well.

I'll be heading for the Cities tomorrow afternoon (un-planned trip as I've got a meeting Monday AM in St. Paul) Girl friend has the rest of the weekend filled though (oh joy... shopping.. and visiting with her friends *$#^$)




As it's been pointed out, often when people get their mind made up on something, that's the only thing that will satisfy them. But I'd also recommend a .308 for the cost of shooting alone, 6.5 creedmoors are pretty reasonable factory rounds as well.
Could keep an eye on Dicks Sporting goods and see if they have any more deals on a Remington Varmint .308 around X-Mas. If he doesn't like it, he could flip it for little to no loss.

Well, I suppose I should speak up. I'm Cory's buddy. I'd just like to clear up the picture that has been painted for me, lol. First, I have no intention of shooting at an animal beyond a distance I'm capable of making a precise, clean shot 100% of the time. To be honest, that's probably about 300 yards for me right now. I am newer to big game hunting, no question about it. I have been shooting recreationally for most of the last 15 years though. I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means, however being "new" to rifle shooting is not accurate.
Now to my caliber choice. I know that the 300WM is probably not ideal for many of you, maybe not me. What I want, is a rifle similar to my -06, but slightly more capable of long range target shooting as I work my skills up to higher levels. I'd like to have a "happy medium" sort of speak, as I know you can't have a great target rifle (heavy barrel, etc) that's also an ideal hunting rifle. My brother lives in Colorado, so big game is in the near future without doubt. I also have a friend that can get me second line ammo in 300wm for about $6/box due to cosmetic flaws (scuffed or nicked case etc). My -06 is a very nice looking French walnut kimber, I'd like a secondary deer gun of similar caliber with a synthetic stock to use on rainy days, rocky, muddy terrain, and so on. I've done a bit of research, and I don't think a 300 would be a BAD choice. Are there better choices? Sure, you guys have named a few, and I agree, those are great recommendations. I just like the idea of having a gun similar to my -06, but maybe have a little more potential for when I grow into it. Not to mention the $6/box ammo!
Again, not claiming to be any kind of expert, and I do appreciate everyone's input! Just telling my side of the situation.

The 30-06 that you currently own is more than capable of 300 yard or 400 yard or 500 yard or 600 yard game shooting with the correct ammo and scope and shooter skill.
If Carlos Hathcock was still alive I think he might tell you what a good 30-06 is capable of !
Speaking of the "second line ammo "due to cosmetic flaws " you might find it is second line in accuracy as well !
Bottom line is get what you want to get.
No one is downing on ya just trying to help you.
If you dont think the recoil of the 300 Mag is going to bother you by all means knock yourself out.It does sound and look real good on paper but if I was a betting man I would bet your oppinion of the 300 Mag is going to change bout the time you squeeze the trigger.
But what the heck get it and if you dont like it then sell it .
Regards and good luck
Craig

I'd be choosing between the .260 and 7RM.

Long range shooting and cheap/second line ammo go together about as well as cats and dogs. LR ammo needs to demonstrate the utmost accuracy, and is often the opposite of cheap. The sooner you get into handloading your own ammo, the sooner you'll thank me

I've put some rounds through a 300 before, they have some kick, but so does my lightweight kimber 30-06, actually very close in felt recoil between the 300 I've shot, and my -06. The second rate ammo is no doubt not ideal "match" ammo, but for 1/4 price, the trigger time is beneficial. I use premium barnes ttsx bullets for hunting, the seconds are just for cheap plinking. My 06 is definitely a capable round, but my light tapered barrel isn't ideal for target shooting, heats up much too quick. If it had a bit heavier barrel, I'd consider sticking to it.

I'd get something in a 6.5.

Ok, educate me a little on the various 6.5's. can't say I have any experience shooting any of them. I just don't know anyone that owns one. I'm always open to learning something new.

260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x47 Lapua all medium light recoiling cartridges with good ballistic properties.

We appreciate your honest input. Sounds like you are set on the 300 win mag. However, I'd be careful about the "$6.00/box" of ammo, as your rifle may not even like it and it would then be useless to you. If you truly want to shoot "long range" you need to get into handloading and find out what your rifle likes (whether that be your new 300 win mag or your ol 30-06).....There's absolutely nothing wrong with your choice. I've had a 300 win mag for a long time and they are great and will give you an edge over the 30-06 ballistically but it will punish you in the recoil department. If I were to pick a rifle for dedicated long range practice I'd probaly be leaning more towards the 7mm rem mag. This would be your "happy medium sort of speak" rifle. That's just me, but that's how I'd do it if I were in your shoes....

I appreciate the feedback. The $6/box ammo, again, is just for practice, trigger time, recoil management, etc. I can get pretty much any of the premium bullets federal offers (partitions, accubond, triple shock, etc in 165gr, 180, etc) for the 300, I have also been getting them for my -06. I don't trust them to have hand load consistency, but I was actually shooting several 5 shot groups at roughly moa accuracy at 100yds with the $5 nosler partitions, 100yds was about as far as we could shoot on that property though. I will get into hand loading at some point, just not in my budget or time capacity at this point (new baby girl due any day now, and work 50-65hr weeks consistently). As far as recoil, I'd consider a muzzle brake, at least for the range.
I don't want to seem "dead set" on the 300, like my pal, Cory, makes it seem. I'm open to new ideas if they seem to fit the bill for my particular situation. That's just what I'm leaning towards based on my experience and limited research.

When all these guys are saying more less the same thing, it's time to listen.

Don't take it the wrong way, but I didn't ask, someone asked for me because he didn't like my choice. However, I'm an open minded person, so I'll listen to everyone's suggestions.
Second, two of the three quotes you chose give different suggestions, and the other is simply a smart ass reply. I don't see everyone agreeing on the same thing, that's why I'm still engaged in this conversation.

The point he's making is that for your first truly LR rifle, you'll be better served by a 6.5 or 7mm than a .300WM. The external ballistics of the 6.5 and 7mm bullets give you an enormous bang for your buck as far as recoil, powder consumption, and bullet price goes. I would look at the .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor if you are interested in low cost, low recoil, high user friendliness, and great accuracy and ballistic potential. The next step up would be the 7mm Rem Mag, which gives equal and even superior ballistic performance to the .300WM, but with less recoil and cheaper bullets.

Either choice will be something that you will enjoy practicing with much more than with a .300WM, and therefore you WILL practice more in the end. If you practice more and enjoy shooting the rifle more because of the relatively gentle recoil, you will quickly be better able to place the bullet where you want it at long range, and that is far more lethal than a slightly larger bullet from the .300WM, if placed not quite as well. After all is said and done, you will be a more deadly LR hunter with a .260, 6.5 Creed, or 7RM, than you would be with a .300WM, unless you've put thousands of rounds down range from the .300 to learn the rifle and condition yourself to place your shots with precision, despite the unpleasant recoil.

And it wasn't a smart ass reply. I was serious.

Lol, that's exactly the type of reply that I consider most helpful. Suggestions with information to back them up are far more constructive and useful than a blunt suggestion followed by a smart remark. I do appreciate the feedback. Thanks.

If your referring to my post, there is nothing smart ass about it at all. The guys I quoted are the ones I read/listen to when it comes to long range shooting.

The OP left a few things for assumptions, such as sporter, varmint, or heavyweight rifle.

For a new-ish LR shooter I tend to default to the 308 for the commercial availability of match grade ammo, decent ballistics, and modest recoil. Nowadays the 6.5 Creedmoor is in that camp too.

300 WinMag also has good LR ammo available commercially, and if you want one, and are up to shooting it well, seems like this whole discussion is fairly moot. The factory seconds may not hold up too well in the accuracy department out at say 600+, but who knows maybe they will.

If you want a sporterweight that is kinda like your 30-06, you may simply need to get a scope with turrets, and a LRF, and get to practicing.

I think most of us get into LR with what we have, then our needs/wants tend to evolve. It's the normal course of things. A lot of enjoyment and learning along the way.

Perhaps another consideration is muzzle blast. Recoil isn't the only thing that can wear on you. A mag, especially braked, can have an effect on you even with good hearing protection.

Wen I first got into some LR, I built a 6.5-284 on a LA 700. I had a 24" barrel on her b/c I thought I'd use it more for hunting. Were I to build another, I'd go all out with a hot 6.5 or 7mm with a long barrel.

HOWEVER, my rig now is a HB .308 and it really is tough to beat when you factor in everything brought up above. You said reloading is out for now and I wouldn't place any faith in cheap .300 WM ammo and if you're not practicing at LR then you're wasting time.

Listen to the experienced guys on here. A .308 or .260 is where it's at for learning and practice--cheap and accurate and easy to shoot a lot of rounds. Get a LRF if you don't have one and learn to dope wind--that's the secret.

this man is giving you good advice. In tangible terms, 6.5/.260 vs. .300 is the difference between burning about 70 g of powder to launch a 190-200+ g bullet, and burning about 40 g of powder to launch a 120-140 g bullet. the .300 wallops on both ends, but it doesn't give you a trajectory or wind-bucking advantage over the 6.5. And while the .300 isn't twice as expensive to shoot in terms of lead and powder, it isn't too far off.

personally, I have the most fun shooting a .308. It doesn't have the ballistics of the 6.5/.260, but it's not bad, and there are tons of things you can do with it from a reloading perspective. I've got a Remington 700P that I can shoot all day long without being bothered by the blast or recoil.

If you want to shoot it a lot, and eventually hammer game with it, buying a 7 Rem Mag is what you need to do.

I did that. And I'd be pissed having something else now... The high BC 7mm bullets are something you have to shoot to believe.

The only thing the .300 Winny does better than the 7RM.... is recoil. Listening to guys at work talk about rifle rounds..... is like listening to the ladies at a beauty shop talk about who has the cutest kid. Not only do the facts get all screwed up..... but emotion and ego get involved.

Your buddy should get a .243 and about 2 cases of 105 Amax..... shoot'em up.... then come back and talk. If he ain't rolling his own fodder..... then .308 or 6.5 Creed are probably the only two I'd trust with out past 400 with factory smoke.

Big time very well put!

Dober

I've had lots of guys to the range that have never hit anything beyond 300 yards in their life (on purpose anyway}..The gun that will put a "holy chit" smile on their face the fastest is the 6.5creedmoor. It isnt just for beginners either. Its also one of myfavorites. as I said before. factory loaded 140 amax is excellent, save your brass and duplicate the factory load when you get a loader..couldnt be more strait forward.

If you want to shoot at range, it takes a lot of practice. getting the drops is pretty easy.. but the wind is a fickle b**ch. You would have to spend some fairly serious cash to send say 1000 rds/year down range in nearly any factory round. Even if its affordable I wouldn't find 50+ rounds a day from a 300wm fun.

If I was going to start again..

Learn to reload, you can get started for maybe $200 or so. It will pay for itself in the first years ammo.

I would troll the gun shops till I found a used varmit gun cheap and then spend $350 to have ITD spin on a new tight twisted tube in 243/260/6.5CM (me I would choose the CM, because the recipe is on the box)

Then I would shoot the crap out of it.

when banging steel at 400, 500 and 600 yds gets boring.. go buy your 300mag you will be ready to make good use of it.

Joey,

Lots of good advice representing many years of collective experience.

I'd like to add a point. To get where you want to be, you need to become an experienced reloader. Things like round concentricity are important. In your situation, I'd start reloading the '06 now, as I learned more about available options. You can do a lot with that round and learn as you go.

DF

I didn't read the entire thread but based on the first page and the experience of the 'fire I expect it would be the 308, 243 or 260 in that order. The SPS Varmint in 308 would not break the bank and the point about Black Hills match ammo is excellent.

My contribution, send him this thread to read...

Makes a ton of sense to me.

I paid under 700 for mine, and it shoots great. http://www.ruger.com/products/m77MarkIITarget/specSheets/17980.html

Its not the only option,but given the criteria I think its one of the best. I will normally shoot the big guns for a bit and get tired of it..Then pick up a 223 or the creedmoor, and thats where i'll burn the most powder, by far..They are just fun to shoot.