Ok, let me say straight up here, I don't need or want, a bunch of hogwash on how your cuzin Jeb drank sum likker and shot himself a crow at 4 miles cuz it solved his twitchin...I don't want stories of how you smacked some private in the Marine Corp in the back of the head with a rock until he stopped flinching, I need good, solid advice.
I am an older guy that has had problems with flinching all my life. As anyone knows, a mm off at the barrel can mean a yard (or more) off at the target.
Most of my problems happen with louder or heavier recoil guns, it doesn't seem to happen at all with .22 or similar. I suspect it happened when I was first starting out, the old man was always in a hurry and breathing down my neck.
I am interested in how those of you that might have personally experienced it, cured yourselves of it, and am willing to try almost anything so I rid myself of it. I would rather have the Tijuana trots for a week than live with this, but I can't seem to fix it myself.
A muzzle brake and and good ear protection. From the mental aspect concentrate totally on the sight picture while constantly increasing pressure on the trigger until it just goes off
jwp: good input, for now I will have to go with the ear protection, the brake isn't something thats in the budget at this point.
Capt: I will be honest, I have shot a fair amount in my life, and have switched big game calibers hoping that it would solve the problem. As you might have guessed, it didn't. I ran up and down the spectrum and tried everything from 243 to 338 to 7mm RUM to 444. Oddly, I had the least problem of all of them with the 444, and interestngly, it was the only lever action out of all of them, too...which led me to wonder, is LOP a key part of my problem?
I know I have always felt most comfortable with guns with cheek rests (keep in mind, I started most of my hunting back when cheek rests were a luxury, not the norm) but it never changed the flinching issue.
Ok, let me say straight up here, I don't need or want, a bunch of hogwash on how your cuzin Jeb drank sum likker and shot himself a crow at 4 miles cuz it solved his twitchin...I don't want stories of how you smacked some private in the Marine Corp in the back of the head with a rock until he stopped flinching, I need good, solid advice.
I am an older guy that has had problems with flinching all my life. As anyone knows, a mm off at the barrel can mean a yard (or more) off at the target.
Most of my problems happen with louder or heavier recoil guns, it doesn't seem to happen at all with .22 or similar. I suspect it happened when I was first starting out, the old man was always in a hurry and breathing down my neck.
I am interested in how those of you that might have personally experienced it, cured yourselves of it, and am willing to try almost anything so I rid myself of it. I would rather have the Tijuana trots for a week than live with this, but I can't seem to fix it myself.
Thoughts, suggestions?
Best way to cure a flinch is to practice dry firing your rifles.
I have also helped a few guys cure their flinch by loading their rifle for them when we were at the range, leaving the chamber empty every once in a while. The first few times they dry fired the rifle they flinched. After a few times of flinching on the dry fire, they would concentrate more on their form knowing that a dry fire may be coming. Eventually they had no flinch.
Doing the majority of your shooting with an accurate 223 that is set up like your bigger rifles will help. Also, a good trigger, and keeping trigger characteristics as identical as possible throughout the rifle battery makes a difference.
Good suggestion re: trigger settings. That definitely could throw a guy off, different "crispnesses" of pull.
When it's all said and done, its all about me and breaking my habit, BUT the adjustments, settings, and other related factors will help. I don't expect there to be a magical "fix."
I will mention that I am much more comfortable with open iron sights than scopes, and I don't know why that is...but this part is an absolute vs a variable.
Ear protection while practicing is the best bet for starters, then dry firing a lot. Don't overdo the heavy kickers at any one time. miles
And make sure its double hearing protection, not just plugs. Use plugs and muffs together and I wouldnt be suprised if the OP saw a reduction in flinching.
Go to the range with a buddy. He either loads the rifle, or leaves the chamber empty, and then you shoot as normal. If it clicks on an empty chamber, you will be able to see how much you are flinching. Concentrate on a perfect follow through, i.e. you are striving for a perfect sight picture after the click if you have an empty chamber.
If usually take just a couple of session of this to cure a flinch, even one developed over decades.
Go to the range with a buddy. He either loads the rifle, or leaves the chamber empty, and then you shoot as normal. If it clicks on an empty chamber, you will be able to see how much you are flinching. Concentrate on a perfect follow through, i.e. you are striving for a perfect sight picture after the click if you have an empty chamber.
If usually take just a couple of session of this to cure a flinch, even one developed over decades.
The above info is great info......
Also, get you a heavy barrel 243 and shoot the hell out of it.
I also found that noise made me flinch, so i wear ear plugs under a set of ear muffs now....i can barely hear the gun go off and my shooting has gotten much better.
I didn't read past the first response. I couldn't agree more with him. There is one thing I would add, rather two. 1. Get a good trigger job. 2. Do lots of "shooting" with no ammo in the firearm. That's how I do most of my practicing. It's free and you can do it from your bedroom or living room. Just make sure you ALWAYS check the chamber EVERY time you pick up your firearm.
This way you can call your hits and misses. The sight is either on target or it is not when you hear the click of the firing pin strike.
I developed a flinch many years ago when I was in my teens. I did alot of .22 rimfire shooting with a rifle with a really rough trigger and some "blind" shooting, that's having someone else "load" the rifle, before it was gone. From those experiences, I've always been on the lookout for any signs that I am flinching. Do you shoot consistant groups ? Even more important, can you call your shots ? If not, you are flinching or not using the proper technique. What I've also found is that while I can shoot some pretty nasty stuff, like a 7 1/4 lb. 12 ga. with magnum slug loads, I do better when I shoot the more reasonable stuff. This is especially true when I am under pressure or in a hurry to make a hit. Do you handload ? I do alot shooting with my '06's loaded with reduced power loads. Use lighter bullets and the faster burning powders. Adjust the load to shoot near your zero or use a scope which allows this to be reliably changed for practice sessions. Don't do alot shooting from the bench. I insist on ending my bench rest sessions with some off hand shooting. Do double taps and make yourself hurry. E
Send the hard kickers down the road and go get a 243, 7-08, have a timney or similar installed. Or have a smith work over a factory trigger to a light, crisp feel.
You have not mentioned your rifles but obviously you have exceeded your recoil toloerance with some of them.
CLB: agreed on recoil. Right now I am pondering what to build, I have two very nice short action Rem 700 stocks so I can start from ground level and work my way up on whatever caliber I want, really.
I am thinking of building a bull barrel 223 with balance weight in the rear and as mentioned, good hearing protection and going with that for the moment. Heavy so it absorbs any recoil and the bull bbl to help with the initial instinct of flinching.
I developed a flinch after a head injury last year. In addition to the good advice others I'd emphasize:
- drop way down in blast and recoil. Since this is posted on the LR forum I'll assume you do that. Consider a fast twist .223, or I think the suggestion for a heavy .243 might be cool. Personally a 7-08 was very useful to me when things were especially bad.
-run your triggers light
-be very cognizant of fatigue. If a shooting session is ten rounds, then it's ten rounds.
-don't practice failure. A flinch is a learned behavior. Don't keep learning it.
You can dry fire and all the other stuff until you are blue in the face. The moment of truth comes when you know the rifle is loaded. You need to block out everything and concentrate on a slow, constant, trigger squeeze and wait to be surprised by the recoil. If you can�t brake it on your own, as stated have a friend load it for you not letting you know if there is a round chambered or not and continue the slow constant trigger squeeze concentrating on believing it is only going to go click. I don�t flinch but I still practice to avoid it by practicing the above trigger control. When I want to break the shot I don�t let my brain tell my finger to snatch the trigger like a shotgun shooter. I continue to concentrate on adding more pressure to the trigger and wait for the recoil.
A standard weight 223 would even be fine as there really is not recoil. Keep the trigger at 2.5 pounds and creep free and relax your grip. Be sure the LOP is perfect for you before you get started. It's easy to slide the scope, but not much you can do if the stock is wrong for you.
Something else you can do is get your crosshairs on target then close both eyes and let your body just feel things. Focus on a nice smooth consistent trigger pull. I would do this s few times before you actually start looking at the target.
When you get ready for live fire, be sure you are not waiting to long to let it rip. If you end up holding your breath to long, that can also cause excess anticipation. Get you and the rifle in position first, get the scope on target, focus on your breath, then touch it off.
IMO, light crisp triggers are key. If a rifle has a rough, tough trigger, that just increases stress in your hand and will lead to more anticipation of the shot.
Go to the range with a buddy. He either loads the rifle, or leaves the chamber empty, and then you shoot as normal. If it clicks on an empty chamber, you will be able to see how much you are flinching. Concentrate on a perfect follow through, i.e. you are striving for a perfect sight picture after the click if you have an empty chamber.
If usually take just a couple of session of this to cure a flinch, even one developed over decades.
The above info is great info......
No, the above is BS. This will certainly DIAGNOSE a flinch, but it won't do a damn thing to cure it. Repeated dry fire, with mega hearing pro as described, followed by loading the rifle yourself, feeling the recoil, watching the crosshairs rise, and learning to call the shot, is the only thing that will cure it.
Sorry take knee, bet it helpful in curing a flinch also, especially when they think that they are empty and make a perfect squeeze. I have help several cure a flinch using that method
Sorry take knee, bet it helpful in curing a flinch also, especially when they think that they are empty and make a perfect squeeze. I have help several cure a flinch using that method
I think this is great idea...nothing shows the importance of alignment, calling shots, follow through,trigger, breathing control and general good habits like a 22 rimfire.I'd start shooting from a steady rest,calling each shot("seeing" alignment of reticle as the rifle goes off).Then move to less steady positions,and controlling the rifle and sight picture while coordinating trigger let off.
Gradually, move up the scale in recoil and blast(223?)with the same practice but at extended distance...watch results of each shot or group...call shots, follow through...check results....analyze misses or shots wide out of the group(what did you do wrong?)
If troubled by recoil,simply never let cartridge choice become a challenge...things like a 257,7x57,7/08,260's etc keep recoil manageable and have a lower level of blast than even a 270,06,or 280,yet are ample for most everything.
Sounds like the OP is running away from the scope(psychogically)...rifles seem to recoil less with irons because our reaction to a scope ,mixed with troublesome recoil,is the same as someone tossing a baseball at our heads unexpectedly.....we take defensive action, try to get out of the way or throw up hands to block the threat.
We are hardwired to protect ourselves against trauma;when a scope flies back toward our face, our natural reaction is to get out of its way...we flinch.Iron sights present no such threat,so rifles are easier to control.
Also, we see less "wobble" through the irons,do not fight the rifle for alignment as badly and there is less tendency to snatch a shot as sights float by the target.
IMHO the solution is something lower powered,long eye relief....try a 2.5X Leupold mixed with the low recoil centerfire....but no higher than 4X from unsteady positions....more eye relief,less apparent wobble..we do not fight the rifle as much and stay more relaxed for correct sight alignment, let off, and shot calling,and follow through.The long eye relief eventually convinces our minds the scope is no longer a threat.
I believe the way to cure flinching or any problem is to first understand the essence of the problem being faced and then developing a plan to overcome the problem.
as others have touched upon, flinching is a physical manifestation of a psychological fear of pain/discomfort or whatever you want to call it. and as others have pointed out one can train away the fear beginning with guns with little recoil to prove the point if you will. i also think proper ear protection is critical as pain in the ears is often a big component of flinching. another factor to consider is stock fit. a poor fitting stock can exacerbate the perception of recoil while a well thought out and good fitting stock can minimize the perception of recoil.
ultimately, flinching is in the mind and can be overcome.
I think the term "Cure" is wrong. Chances are you will never cure the flinch, you need to practice constantly and every shot you have to talk yourself out of the flinch.
As far as a cure, there are 2 things you can't...the common cold and flinching
Go to the range with a buddy. He either loads the rifle, or leaves the chamber empty, and then you shoot as normal. If it clicks on an empty chamber, you will be able to see how much you are flinching. Concentrate on a perfect follow through, i.e. you are striving for a perfect sight picture after the click if you have an empty chamber.
If usually take just a couple of session of this to cure a flinch, even one developed over decades.
The above info is great info......
No, the above is BS. This will certainly DIAGNOSE a flinch, but it won't do a damn thing to cure it. Repeated dry fire, with mega hearing pro as described, followed by loading the rifle yourself, feeling the recoil, watching the crosshairs rise, and learning to call the shot, is the only thing that will cure it.
It's worked for me with multipe shooters.
The problem with just dryfiring, is they know the gun is empty, so they will not behave the same as when the chamber is loaded. Keep them focused on the follow through, and they should be able to work through it realitively quickly.
I think it is all muscle memory. To me you have to break it down into small parts and focus on each part till it becomes natural( habit). When teaching a kid to rope it all starts on the "ground work". They can not learn proper form whipping and spurring across the arena. To ME it is the same as a gun going off and rattling you every time you pull the trigger.
A flinch becomes mental, caused by either painful recoil or excessive muzzle blast for the shooters tolerance. If the trigger pull is not learned and mastered from the beginning then yes it could be improper muscle memory. Most people with flinchs that I have seen were more mental.
Shrapnel called it as to what has happened to me over the years. Never had a flinch until one summer took a major recoil hit from a 45/70 in prone and a few weeks later did some patterning of turkey loads off a bench. Neither one conducive to comfort. The flinch has never really gone away, but learned to deal with it.
Had a rem 700 bdl that I no longer used hunting, just targeting and took a file, a new target scope, recoil pad and carved to a perfect fit for me for ultra comfort in shooting. Then proceeded to practice at the bench to practice proper shooting, especially follow-thru. Found that working on breathing, trigger and follow-thru did the trick where I no longer even think about it, though it is still there.
Did buy a savage package deal in 243 a few years back and played with that stock also, still has the $30 scope it came with and is a fun gun, went to a 06 getting rid of my skinny stocked 338 which eliminated a lot of trepidation.
Lots of 22 shooting with a decent rifle also helps to remember proper shooting.
,mixed with troublesome recoil,is the same as someone tossing a baseball at our heads
A little parenthetical insertion here with some levity added in. Back in high school my brother was Joe athlete. I was invited to play baseball with the boys. Everytime a curve came I backed away. And of course we all heard, "STRIKE!" My brother tried to help by saying, "Hang in there. It will brake."
I used to wear my watch so the face was on the inside of the wrist. The next time a "curve" came I hung right in there. It didn't brake and took the crystal right off of my watch. Needless to say I didn't flinch, but I also didn't play anymore baseball.
Shooting good is sometimes more about stopping yourself doing the wrong things - flinching is one of them. Not jumping on the trigger is another and can be more a cause of an unsteady hold. My current bad habit with off-hand shooting is to push the foreend up as I fire the shot, because I fatigue and the rifle starts dropping. I thought I'd gotten over that.
I suggest going to a lighter kicker, or using reduced loads, or even shotting off-hand (recoil never feels as bad when shooting off-hand). Try realy hard to concentrate on getting the shot away where you want it to. This will put the focus on keeping the rifle steady and concentrate on trigger control (ie squeezing without a consious effort to actually release it). If you don't know when exactly it is going to go off, then you likely won't be tensing up when it does. If you do feel yourself tensing up, or getting anxious, then abort the shot, give yourself a few seconds to recompose and try again.
Practice is the key, but it has to be good practice and not necessarily large volume of rounds fired.
Go to the range with a buddy. He either loads the rifle, or leaves the chamber empty, and then you shoot as normal. If it clicks on an empty chamber, you will be able to see how much you are flinching. Concentrate on a perfect follow through, i.e. you are striving for a perfect sight picture after the click if you have an empty chamber.
If usually take just a couple of session of this to cure a flinch, even one developed over decades.
This is the only way i have ever heard of truly curing a flinch, followed by lots of dry firing afterwards. Eeven in smallbore competition flinching is common, and one cannot get rid of a flinch unless the trigger break and resulting shot is truly a surprise. IIRC this is also the way that Jack O'Connor and many others laid it out, and it is a system used by some of the best coaches in the world. Cat
Best answers so far: lighter kicking rifles (lotsa .22 LR ) and hearing protection. The OP's responses almost indicate he didn't used to wear hearing protection. Bad news if it's true.
Dry fire is of SOME use but true flinching comes from the brain anticipating pain at the shot. Knowing the rifle is unloaded only helps with your trigger squeeze. Also, a bad trigger can lead to yanking but that's not the same as flinching.
The OP needs to retrain his brain that when the gun goes off it won't be unpleasant.
CURE: low recoiling rifle (no brakes-too much blast), excellent hearing protection, and lots of practice. To begin with, I would shoot a lot of field positions, especially offhand.
Another tip: shoot 'fun' reactive targets. It'll take your mind off the recoil (ask any one who has ever shot an animal during hunting).
Get comfortable with an adequate caliber and never go back to the heavies.
PS really makes you want to kick the [bleep] on YouTube who think it's hilarious to have their girlfriends/wives/young kids shoot cannons.
The suggestion of letting your shooting partner load the rifle or not and watching for the flinch is a good one. The best way to measure flinch is to let your shooting partner balance a quarter on the end of the barrel. If you can consistently pull the trigger without knocking off the quarter, your flinch is cured.
You are correct in your assumptions that I did not wear hearing protection. When I started shooting back in the early 60s, it was unheard of. (pun intended) I do wear it now whenever I shoot recreationally, and it also is good for a guy to wear on the deer stand because it forces you to use your eyes more instead of just relying on hearing (which is used a lot more than we realize)
I have shot quite a bit over the years in various calibers and never found any problems with air guns or 22s and flinching, it was definitely the guns with recoil that I had the problems with.
1. Hearing protection 2. Shoot a good .22 with a good trigger. Repeat. 3. Follow through on you shot and "call" it. Where were the crosshairs when the trigger "broke"? 3 o'clock? 4. The stock needs to fit you properly. If the comb is too low and your cheek is not firmly planted you'll have a sore cheekbone. Conversely if there is not enough drop and you need to mash your cheekbone on the comb to see the sight properly your going to get drilled. 5. Make sure your breathing is proper. In other words, there is enough air in your lungs and your are comfortable. Two deep breaths, third let it out half way, start your squeeze. 6. Speaking of the squeeze. If you do not know exactly when the trigger is going to "break" have it fixed until you can. This is where dry firing is helpful. If you are anticipating the recoil and the rifle does not fire when you "think" it should you'll flinch. Guaranteed. KNOW when it is going to go off. No exceptions. 7. Dry firing...two deep breaths, third let 1/2 the air out, start your squeeze, know when it breaks and where were the crosshairs when the hammer fell? Do it again.
Calibers? I'd start with a .223 and shoot at small target dots.
Ok, let me say straight up here, I don't need or want, a bunch of hogwash on how your cuzin Jeb drank sum likker and shot himself a crow at 4 miles cuz it solved his twitchin...I don't want stories of how you smacked some private in the Marine Corp in the back of the head with a rock until he stopped flinching, I need good, solid advice.
I am an older guy that has had problems with flinching all my life. As anyone knows, a mm off at the barrel can mean a yard (or more) off at the target.
Most of my problems happen with louder or heavier recoil guns, it doesn't seem to happen at all with .22 or similar. I suspect it happened when I was first starting out, the old man was always in a hurry and breathing down my neck.
I am interested in how those of you that might have personally experienced it, cured yourselves of it, and am willing to try almost anything so I rid myself of it. I would rather have the Tijuana trots for a week than live with this, but I can't seem to fix it myself.
Thoughts, suggestions?
Best way to cure a flinch is to practice dry firing your rifles.
I have also helped a few guys cure their flinch by loading their rifle for them when we were at the range, leaving the chamber empty every once in a while. The first few times they dry fired the rifle they flinched. After a few times of flinching on the dry fire, they would concentrate more on their form knowing that a dry fire may be coming. Eventually they had no flinch.
Best way to cure a flinch is to practice dry firing your rifles.
I have also helped a few guys cure their flinch by loading their rifle for them when we were at the range, leaving the chamber empty every once in a while. The first few times they dry fired the rifle they flinched. After a few times of flinching on the dry fire, they would concentrate more on their form knowing that a dry fire may be coming. Eventually they had no flinch. [/quote]
What helped me greatly was buying a nice accurate pellet gun. I got an Air arms tx200 that can fricken shoot great and has a decent trigger. Put a scope on it and when i first tried to shoot tiny groups at 50 feet...showed me some issues. Jerked with my breathing, trigger finger and muscles it felt like. I'm getting better, but less recoil has helped... the pellet gun, 223 and moving to a 308 from a 300wsm. Still got the 300wsm, but its probably about to be a gonner!
Going to a lesser caliber with less recoil but not effectiveness is the way to go. I work with two young men, brothers, Cody and Cameron. Cody bought a new 300 WM in the Fall. Last month he took a nice young cow elk up behind my house on a very steep mountain. He stands about 5'9', 220 lbs. His larger brother, Cameron stands about 6' 2', 250 lbs, and using the same rifle missed, 6x, at two different cows just 3 days back. The big kid doesn't like recoil, so I loaned them my little 6.5x47 Lapua pushing the Barnes 127 gr LRX. Two days back they climbed back up the same mountain and killed a very nice large cow @ 450 yds with one shot from the little cartridge.
I didn't read all the replies but the ball and dummy drill helps a lot to confirm you are flinching and how bad.
Have someone load as noted both live and dead rounds while you shoot.
Dry firing does help if you do it enough to where you can learn to fire without any movement in the sight picture except a teeny tiny blip when the sear releases, but it goes right back to the same spot.
And in it all, remember this, that helps me mentally. If you are shooting a gun that kicks, its going to kick whether you hit or miss. So no need in flinching and missing if you are going to get hit anyway, make it worth your while to get hit.
And pay attention to muscle tension, if you can realize you are tightening up then you are about to flinch. If you are holding your breath, you are about to flinch.
I often make numerous shot atttemps at animals knowing now that I have 4-5 second window max once I settle into a solid shot. If I don't break it in that window I need to breathe and start over again.
nothing wrong with wearing a shoulder pad to soften the recoil. I started with one a year ago and my family looked at me a bit oddly - until I talked them into trying it. Now they borrow it quite a bit. Cabela's and others carry them, and they are often ambidextrous.
Less recoil, lighter triggers, heavier rifles, lots of dry fire practice along with practice with a buddy handing you the rifle sometimes hot and sometimes cold, and good hearing protection all help cure/prevent flinch.
IME with guiding inexperienced hunters and teaching children and novices to shoot (which I've done quite a bit) most flinch is more from noise an muzzle blast rather than recoil. I think a brake creates more flinch than it eliminates, and short barrels can create the same effect.
I also like Rost's observation that one is going to get kicked either way, so make it worthwhile. That advice has helped many with their perspective, IME.
I'd also avoid too much bench shooting with rifles with any recoil to speak of. Use 22's and 223's and other light kickers to diagnose flinch and work on it, and shoot the others from less punishing postitions.
Finally, I'd suggest total humility about cartridge/caliber shot. With today's bullets, there's not much reason to shoot enough gun to create a flinch for most applications.
The big advantage to heavy bullets and hard kicking boomers is in doping wind long range, but that advantage is useless until the flinch is thoroughly cured.
When I started hunting in the early sixtys, I had a 7MM mag. I always liked to shoot squirrels and it was the only centerfire I had, I ruined myself because of the recoil and noise.
Took me a year to overcome a terrible flinch, but did it by shooting a 22 LR for groups. I practiced by dry firing on a target and making sure the crosshairs were static on the target when the gun dry fired. I still use the dry fire method to assure I am not flinching. I found if you can't control the flinch by dry firing, you can never shoot great groups or kill small animals at longer ranges.
Less recoil, lighter triggers, heavier rifles, lots of dry fire practice along with practice with a buddy handing you the rifle sometimes hot and sometimes cold, and good hearing protection all help cure/prevent flinch.
IME with guiding inexperienced hunters and teaching children and novices to shoot (which I've done quite a bit) most flinch is more from noise an muzzle blast rather than recoil. I think a brake creates more flinch than it eliminates, and short barrels can create the same effect.
I also like Rost's observation that one is going to get kicked either way, so make it worthwhile. That advice has helped many with their perspective, IME.
I'd also avoid too much bench shooting with rifles with any recoil to speak of. Use 22's and 223's and other light kickers to diagnose flinch and work on it, and shoot the others from less punishing postitions.
Finally, I'd suggest total humility about cartridge/caliber shot. With today's bullets, there's not much reason to shoot enough gun to create a flinch for most applications.
The big advantage to heavy bullets and hard kicking boomers is in doping wind long range, but that advantage is useless until the flinch is thoroughly cured.
DJ
The humility part about shooting cartridges.. truth be told, most game shot 200 or less, for sure 300 or less. No need for anything more than a 308 for dang near anythhing....
My dad had problems wounding deer. I took him to the range and gave him my very accurate 22 magnum. I watched him shoot and it was hard to believe what he was doing that he did not realize.
He would not touch the trigger, then as he wanted to shoot, his finger would go from 3/8" away from the trigger to a fast and furious SLAP of the trigger. I asked him where the cross hair was as the gun went off, he had no idea because his mind blanked at that point.
I sat up a video camera that was focused on his trigger finger and we watched it later on at night and he did his own analysis.
He got comfortable with caressing the trigger getting used to the feel of the trigger, then got used to the creep in the trigger, anticipating the gun going off as it surprised him.
Over time practicing with a target 22RF, he broke his own habbit and was able to shoot very small groups with his Browning 7 Mag that had a boss on the end.
He traced the development of his flinch back to his Navy days when he was a gunner's mate during the Korean Conflict. They did not wear ear plugs and the noise and concussion of a 5" gun is horrendous.
Over the years working at rifle ranges helping people, it seems that there are two things irritate people, first the concussion of the gun going off, then the recoil that is unconfortable to say the least. Trying to condition yourself to get hurt everytime the gun goes off is very difficult for some people, others will never tollerate it at all. Just like some dogs are gun shy and run off at the sound of a gun, people do the same thing.
Fact is, you may never get used to a heavy kicker, but there are alternatives. Guns that kick at a level of a 25/06 can be tollerable ,but you must analyze exactly what is going on during your flinch...jerk the trigger while your finger is on the trigger or slap with your finger not engaging the trigger. A muzzle break used with electronic Ear muffs take the recoil of a 7 mag to almost the level of a 22/250.
If you find that recoil is something that you just can not handle, then try a 22/250 with 60g Nosler partitons or a 243 with 95g Partitions.
By the way, hats off to you for asking for help, most never do.
I let my dad shoot rifles with a 2 oz trigger on p. dog towns and he was quite good at 600 yds after he had worked on his slapping the trigger.
How tight are you holding the rifle? You can try pulling it into your shoulder with your off hand to alleviate tension in your strong hand (trigger finger). Might sound odd, but super light triggers have always been a problem for me. I like them a tad heavier than most so that the tension in my hand "feels" similar to the pressure I put on the trigger. That's the other thing, when Im on target I "stare through" the crosshairs and only think about one thing....pressure (trigger finger). Its a forward thinking, observation, type thing. Your mind can only do one thing at a time. You gotta shoot in the present tense.....
All my rifles are fired with the exact opposite technique. Even my .375-.416 is held like a kid holds a BB gun. They all have a trigger set at about 25 ounces. Even my .454 was set at eighteen ounces until I though about selling it. Now it is set at 42 ounces. They all have brakes.
The technique works for me. To test a Weaver 2-10X I installed it on the .375-.416. I fired a group on 10X then 2X and then offhand. The offhand group was the same size as the 2X group but about 1 1/2" to the left. Light works for me.
In order to diagnose a flinch, I do the random loading of empty brass and loaded rounds, and the effect is quite dramatic. Once the flinch is known to be there, I work on dry-firing with dummy rounds to prevent firing pin damage.
I tell them that the rifle is not going to recoil and that they should just S-Q-U-E-E-E-E-Z-E the trigger gradually and be surprised when the rifle goes click. I tell them to think squeeze and click, not squeeze and bang. SQUEEZE ---- CLICK. I don't let them shoot live ammo until they get the trigger contro thing settled.
Back it up a bit, and check to see if the stock is the proper length and that the scope is set up so the person doesn't have to creep ahead to get the full scope picture. Make adjustments. I always check length with a hunting jacket on, as it makes a difference.
Scope mounting should be at a position that is comfortable for the shooter. I do this by having the person close their eyes and mount the rifle to shoulder with their head in a comfortable position. I then have them open their eyes and find out where we have to move the scope to get it properly fit.
I will often shoot the rifle in so the person doesn't get tenderized by the recoil. Lots of dry fire. If it is a cartridge for which I reload, I give them light bullets, faster burning powder, and light powder charges. That mitigates the recoil as much as you can, especially after the stock length is proper and the scope is mounted correctly.
I always tell guys to take their time, because the target is not going to run away. Remind them SQUEEZE --- CLICK and then random load a round. If they have got the sueeze click principle, and if the rifle is held securely, there will be a hit. Do another couple dummies, and then a loaded round. Never -- NEVER let the person shoot until it gets to hurting them, even mildly.
I had a guy last fall that bought a 308 BLR for deer hunting from a stand - max range 75 yards. I loaded some 150 grainers for him with a lower charge of faster burning powder. This guy has an onboard defib unit on one side and a pace maker on the other. He can only stand a couple shots, because of how he is forced to hold the rifle. He put two rounds within an inch of each other at 100 yards, and the sting started to get to him. He passed the squeeze click routine, and on opening day, he drilled a nice buck, and then next day a nice doe.
My pay was seeing him be able to shoot accurately and not flinch. And he gave me a pack of sausages made with wild rice and jalepenos. (He had started the day with two shots about 4" apart at the 20 yard line. I to;d hom a 20" group was not get him eating venison.) He was happy with the results.
There has been a lot of good information passed along here.
I mastered flinching by firstly, recognizing that most people flinch due to muzzle blast and not recoil, so a decent pair of ear muffs with a high (+26db)rating and preferably, + 30db, (Bilsom come to mind)followed by a properly matched scope to the rifle and shooting positions most used.
If the scope is too close, you will learn everything you never wanted to know about recoil. Eye relief is very important.
Lastly, I concentrate on the hold and sight picture, so much so, that when the rifle goes off, I am not intimidated by the recoil that is already over.
I have more experience with the .460 Weatherby than most, and have shot a countless number of groups considerably under MOA including a 5 shot group at .6 MOA which I once sent to Barnes, using their product. 3 shot groups are very ho-hum around the .5 MOA accuracy level.
The .458 is no slouch either and tight cloverleaf groups are boringly common.
It can be done, if you master yourself, then worry about the group.
As noted by others, when you get that far, shifting concentration to the crosshairs alone, and staring hard at them, often helps confirm you won't flinch.
Subconscious mind can only do one thing at a time. If you occupy it watching the cross hairs, its MCUH harder to jerk at the wrong time.
And as noted above also... which vouches for my earlier comments, IF you pull the trigger you are going to get whatever recoil the gun gives. Whether you miss by a mile or blow the spindle out of a target. May as well make it worth the thump.
After 18 years of trap shooting and shooting 10 to 15,000 rounds a year I went to a release trigger. Can't do that with rifles so i built a heavy barrel 223 and practiced ,WATCHING THE BULLET HIT THE TARGE. It took about 100 rounds but it cured me. All of the other suggestions seamed to be good ones . IE. hearing protection, and hold .good luck. I know it sucks!
I must admit I haven't read the whole thread and am coming in a bit late, so I'll be brief, since I may be repeating advice others have given:
1. practice a lot with light-recoiling guns 2. practice dry-firing at home and between shots at the range 3. use a PAST recoil pad or equivalent, along with your ear protection 4. get a friend to "load" the gun for you (sometimes it'll be empty) 5. don't shoot high recoiling guns - in North America we can get by just fine with nothing more powerful than a 270 or 308. Heck, even a 7-08, 260, or 25-06 will do nicely. No use suffering in life; the whole thing is for fun.
Unless a rifle physically damages you (ie broken bones, knocks you out etc) then the recoil is just unpleasant and is an issue you have to deal with in your head. Good valid rationale to tell youself to stop flinching is that it wastes ammo, but this would be negative feedback and that is never a good driver for improvement. Better to concentrate on positive aspects required for accurate shooting (trigger release, breathing, maintaining a steady of-hand hold). This will at least distract you from anxiety of the anticipation of recoil.
i figured out a way to cure my flinch. it started form an old boltaction 20 ga i rescued from my dads barn. it was the first gun i ever fired bar the daisy red rider. and that thing was light and hurt to shoot. i was 9 or 10. later in life i got into competive archery. and shooting real precision target stuff. amd stumbeled onto a book that explains how the mind works. the trigger has to be controoled by the subconscious not the conscious. the conscious mind has to be nuterlized. there are many training excersizes. the one that seems to work for me is to humm to yourself while aiming. it keeps the conscious mind stay busy while the subcscious does what it has been trained to do. i have a book that explains all this. called Advanced Archer it helped me place top 10 state level and placet #46 in world championship NFAA in Reading CA. when i migrated into trap i shot 100 streight the first year and first in novis class. dont ever be fooled the flinch i had is still there. i just learnes to controol it. i still cant snap shoot a rifle at a deer off hand. i flinch every time... hope this helps
Dry-firing will cure your flinch. Take the rifle that you are having a problem with, and even sitting in front of the TV, aim and get yourself into the routine of squeezing that trigger until you build a mental picture of where that trigger breaks every time. After a couple of hundred practice shots, you will be over it.
At my age, I don't like to fight my guns, my food, or my women. I found myself slapping the trigger on my bench gun, 2 ounce Jewell. That was when the crosshairs were close to where I wanted them, not a good technique. Trigger time and dry firing work to help solve shooting errors. However, you have to pay attention to aiming and follow thru. I found the concentration on the aim point and mentioned consistent follow thru made it work.
Lighter recoiling weapons will help take some of the punishment out of the equation. Some 20,000 rounds of 22LR downrange with the bench gun showed me I didn't know what was good technique after almost 50 years of shooting. I m now working with a GSR Scout Rifle with a low power scope and the concentration on a discernible aim point is taking the shot execution to the subconscious level as mentioned.
Dry firing helps me take the blast and recoil out of the equation with both rifles and handguns. Plus it helps me save ammo in these times of hard to get cartridges. Oh, don't dry fire your 22LR, without a snap cap in place.
Zen. I know, it's dumb. Visualization is used by professional athletes to find a way through tough situations. They think of, and visualize how to, successfully react to a problem. No reason you can't do the same for recoil.
Run a movie through your head of you taking control of the rifle, squeezing the trigger, anticipating the recoil while maintaining the target, feeling the recoil, successfully negotiating through the recoil, keeping your eyes open, following through and calling the shot.
Take it frame by frame in your mind and enjoy the event, you have to feel it and you have to be successful. Try to recognize and appreciate each millisecond of your masterpiece. Recoil is something you initiate, on purpose, your are in control, savor and enjoy the moment. Just teach your mind it's good and you like it, you want it. Then practice.
Ok, I hear the snickering. I'll square my redneck up against anybody, and I haven't done any illegal mind altering stuff for over 30 years. Just sayin'...
219zipper: I personally worked with a fella a few years back that had a new rifle w/factory ammo in 7mmRM blow up on him. Now this guy had a very Bad flinch as you can imagine. It took us 6 months of working on his flinch to get it under control. Did we ever cure his flinch completely...NO. But we got him to a point to be able to control his flinch. Or in his case, I should say, we were able to get control of his fear.
I would suggest: 1.) Determine your own fears. Write them down in order. Try to understand what each fear is and why you have that fear. 2.) Seek out help from a shooting coach that understands your mental fears and can work with you one on one. Usually an Olympic trainer/shooting coach will be your best. Don't look for free advice, find a professional, that has experience with the mental aspect of shooting. It will be the best investment you can do to help your challenge. 3.) Understand that you may never completely over come you fears....But you can control them.
If you can not or do not want to search out professional help there are some very good suggestion listed here. These two are probably the best IMO.
Originally Posted by 338Norma
You can dry fire and all the other stuff until you are blue in the face. The moment of truth comes when you know the rifle is loaded. You need to block out everything and concentrate on a slow, constant, trigger squeeze and wait to be surprised by the recoil. If you can�t brake it on your own, as stated have a friend load it for you not letting you know if there is a round chambered or not and continue the slow constant trigger squeeze concentrating on believing it is only going to go click. I don�t flinch but I still practice to avoid it by practicing the above trigger control. When I want to break the shot I don�t let my brain tell my finger to snatch the trigger like a shotgun shooter. I continue to concentrate on adding more pressure to the trigger and wait for the recoil.
Originally Posted by BobinNH
I'd start shooting from a steady rest,calling each shot("seeing" alignment of reticle as the rifle goes off).Then move to less steady positions,and controlling the rifle and sight picture while coordinating trigger let off.
Gradually, move up the scale in recoil and blast(223?)with the same practice but at extended distance...watch results of each shot or group...call shots, follow through...check results....analyze misses or shots wide out of the group(what did you do wrong?)
If troubled by recoil,simply never let cartridge choice become a challenge...things like a 257,7x57,7/08,260's etc keep recoil manageable and have a lower level of blast than even a 270,06,or 280,yet are ample for most everything.
Sounds like the OP is running away from the scope(psychogically)...rifles seem to recoil less with irons because our reaction to a scope ,mixed with troublesome recoil,is the same as someone tossing a baseball at our heads unexpectedly.....we take defensive action, try to get out of the way or throw up hands to block the threat.
We are hardwired to protect ourselves against trauma;when a scope flies back toward our face, our natural reaction is to get out of its way...we flinch.Iron sights present no such threat,so rifles are easier to control.
Also, we see less "wobble" through the irons,do not fight the rifle for alignment as badly and there is less tendency to snatch a shot as sights float by the target.
IMHO the solution is something lower powered,long eye relief....try a 2.5X Leupold mixed with the low recoil centerfire....but no higher than 4X from unsteady positions....more eye relief,less apparent wobble..we do not fight the rifle as much and stay more relaxed for correct sight alignment, let off, and shot calling,and follow through.The long eye relief eventually convinces our minds the scope is no longer a threat.
Before about twenty-five years ago I didn't notice the sound of the shot or the recoil. Then one day I saw a deer which already made me. It was no more than fifty yards away. I figured since it already made me and was merely watching me I took time to sit down and take a careful aim below its chin. Not only did I hear the extremely loud shot, I felt the very sharp recoil from the 7-.300 Weatherby. Right then I decided I didn't like recoil nor loud noises, so I certainly couldn't enjoy them.
After that I used Action Ears and had a muzzle brake installed. The only way to shoot: Quiet and soft.
I think the term "Cure" is wrong. Chances are you will never cure the flinch, you need to practice constantly and every shot you have to talk yourself out of the flinch.
As far as a cure, there are 2 things you can't...the common cold and flinching
This answer should be a sticky.
It's really pretty simple in my experience. you flinch when you have a subconscious apprehension of the recoil and/or blast the rifle will generate at the shot. If you don't want to worry about flinch, shoot guns that you are less apprehensive of. harder kickers and bigger noisemakers take more concentration to shoot well.
Or as I"ve said, you are going to get thumped if you activate the trigger.
That being said, make it count.
Its all a mental game. I've had to fight flinches from teh 223 and the 308. Some of them were recoil related after hundreds of rounds prone and getting pounded in the cheek by my thumb.... others were a flinch that basically was trying so hard to be perfectly still while shooting that you snatch the shot.
So cover the mental part and you are fine. And if that takes either a recoil reducer or smaller caliber, just go with it. Plus hearing protection.
I"m always amazed, as long as you can be picky about your shots, that it takes way less gun than most think to kill things efficiently. But if you have to take the only shot you may get.... then its a different ball game.
Funny RE the 7x300... I've never thought mine recoiled much at all even with 180 bergers. But I had a 300 wtby that twisted and rose like a )_&( and you had to have a mental game to shoot that gun. Used to. It was rebarreled to the 7x300...
First thing is have a "LimbSaver" brand 1" thick recoil pad installed on your rifle. These are the mildest pad on your shoulder, I have fired forty rounds of 300 WSM or 30-06 180 grainers from the bench without a sore shoulder the next day using these pads.
It seems you're already aware that solving anticipation, or anxiety is a mental exercise. [So], start practicing with an empty rifle at home for a few days taking careful aim at a spot on the wall or some household item and slowly pressing the trigger until it dry snaps, then do it over and over paying attention to pressing the trigger without any other movement of the body.
When you go to the range or wherever you practice, repeat the same discipline with live ammo, concentrating on pressing the trigger without moving the body. [Because] you know the recoil is not going to bruise or even hurt because you're equipped with a "Limbsaver Pad".
the recoil is not going to bruise or even hurt because you're equipped with a "Limbsaver Pad".
If I knew this when I order my Lone Wolf stock I could have saved some weight. I certainly agree here. I could have lift off the brake. I might replace the brake with a barrel weight to maintain the tune of the barrel harmonics.
While a problem "flinch" is not the reason I use this method, I'm sure it will work to cure one.
What I do to insure a quality shot is to slowly apply pressure to the trigger and imagine hearing the "snap" or "click" of a dry fire when I know the trigger will break. I don't do a lot of dry fire practice.
I actually say "click" to myself when I know the trigger will break.
All kinds of remedies have been proposed to cure a flinch. Some never experience it and with some, one day it comes out of nowhere.
I don't think you cure a flinch. I do think you learn how to put it in a box and keep the lid closed for the most part.
First time it visited me was with a shotgun. There was no jerking of the trigger to ruin the shot. Fact is I couldn't pull the trigger. The nerve to the trigger finger went dead. Forearm was as tight as if I was doing reverse curls. Happened shortly thereafter and I said enough. Cased the shotgun and called it a day and stayed away from it for a couple weeks. Still will flinch on occasion with a shotgun, but for the most part it is a visual flinch. My thought is the barrel will somehow interrupt my focus on the the target and the brain says no way and short circuits the shot. Usually can recover and often break it further down the line.
With rifles I don't think there is a cure other than not allowing yourself to shoot something that really rocks you excessively. As another poster said, I just accept that I'm going to get hit one way or another, and with the rifles I shoot I know it is not that big of a deal. I rebarreled a .338Fed Montana, a cartridge I still like to this day, for one reason. In the Montana it was like a sneaky punch that you couldn't defend against and it wore me down thinking about it from the bench.
There are times I try and snatch the shot-trying to time the trigger pull as it passes the spot, which can be jerky-but I don't consider that to be poor technique rather than a flinch. My rifle flinch will mainly occur with inanimate targets. With game, and especially when things are happening quickly, the world has condensed to animal and sights. When things look good the rifle seems to go off on its own, without my thinking about it.
Have had same RE not pulling the trigger at all, with the AR of all things. No recoil etc... but scared to shoot a 9.....
RE getting hit.... I've got cut twice when I KNEW I would get cut, both due to firing position of a heavy kicker. And once I lost skin off my knuckle trying a long shot... long story I had misread the wind on the ground, and was missing the target but once I figured that out... the next shot was the last with a nice kill. But my finger was bleeding from almost sideways leaning over the stock on a 338 win mag tupperware sps... 250s... and I was attempting to miss a tree limb in the way in a tripod.... so awkward is an understatement. NEver flinched on any of those shots. I regret it now, because some 7 years or so later that finger is a PITA when a cold front comes in....
RE dry firing... its the very best tool IMHO. Needs to be backed up with live fire, but dry firing allows you to repeat it so many time that when the eye sees it right, the brain is already sending the message to teh finger.... Long story.. never could shoot a 200 at 600 with the service rifle... close but never... then i put my mind to dry firing around 60 shots EVERY night from position... I learned a lot... my position needed work, I was not as smooth as I thought, I needed to watch my sight picture better. I needed to shoot much faster than I was. And finally on a laser trainer confirmed my position prone from a sling had my wobble down to about .25 moa wobble with irons. And I shot a 200. And another, and another and so on, until it surprised me when I didn't shoot a 200.....
Started too big when young, developed a flinch. Of all things a pellet gun cured it. Even flinched with it at first, but got over it and went down in caliber for the rifle. Now can shoot the bigger guns again too.
