I ran 139 Scenar's through JBM with a 1500 yard maximum, 10 mph 90 degree wind and selecting yardage just above 1116 fps, velocity for both estimated with a 24" barrel. About 20 grains more powder in the 6.5 SAUM.

260 @ 2775

Range Drop (in) Drop (MOA) Windage (MOA) Velocity

600 -0.0 -0.0 24.5 3.9 1886.7
1240 -428.4 -33.0 135.0 10.4 1126.2


6.5 SAUM @ 3100

Range Drop (in) Drop (MOA) Windage (MOA) Velocity

600 -0.0 -0.0 20.6 3.3 2151.5
1440 -561.5 -37.2 163.9 10.9 1118.9


For grins, 243 and 105 Amax @ 3000 and 1/2 the recoil of the 6.5 SAUM

Range Drop (in) Drop (MOA) Windage (MOA) Velocity

600 -0.0 -0.0 25.2 4.0 1961.8
1220 -380.1 -29.8 137.2 10.7 1121.1

One other thing to add to the mix is that the 6.5 SAUM rounds have not been pressure tested. I wouldn't be surprised to see it's velocity drop a bit if that were to happen.

You probably just upped the sales of the .243.

Comparing windage at dissimilar ranges?

Are you shooting paper or hunting big game?

It really comes down to what impact velocity you want at a certain range for the bullet to be effective on game.

Some say 2000 fps, some say 1,800 fps is needed.

243's are nice for shooting paper but I personally wouldn't use one for large mule deer or elk. It starts at 6.5 for me.


(No doubt some nimrod here will show up with a bombast opinion of how great the 243 is on bull elk at long range.)

325fps faster.....pretty simple answer.

How's this for a pressure test?

This load drives a 139 scenar at 3150fps. The barrel has 2100 rounds through it, and still shoots sub .5".

'Loco

Yes, the yardage where each would be close to going subsonic.

I did include 600 as a direct comparison and the difference is about 4".

Is 200 yards worth the step up?

And at what point, when shooting 1000+?

That there is some Fugly brass Pat!

No loose primer pockets after 16 firings. Just think how many times you could load it if you actually annealed it at the PROPER interval!

The long neck is interesting, I wonder how much that contributes to long barrel life.

I am sure Pat or George can give specifics on pressure tests, but my understanding is that the 6.5 SAUM pushing the 139 at 3150 and the 130 at 3250 pressures run near or below 57,000 psi with H1000. Lower pressure contributes to longer barrel life. A decent neck length doesn't hurt either.

Russ

Would a 270WSM running on 2 more grains of H1000 have similar barrel life?

I'm not a LR shooter but WSM brass is easy to work with and make straight. Never used SAUM brass but it looks like Pat is having good luck.....grin


I hardly ever trim it and never anneal, 10-15x firings is easy for that heavy duty stuff.



Barrel life of the 6.5 SAUM is very interesting.

Adjusting the velocity according to scenarshooters real world data of 3150 for the 6.5 SAUM and 2850 for the 260 would tighten the numbers a bit.

Still 300 fps.

I haven't ran them over a chrono. I'll find the velocity when I get a chance to shoot them out to 1200 or so, and a few random ranges in between. My 139 scenar load gave 2850fps in the same rifle, with 1/10gr less powder. I'll bet 2900fps is achievable....I used my 139 scenar range card for 503M and these 136's shot the exact same. I expect them to shoot flatter as the range increases.


260 @ 2850

Range Drop (in) Drop (MOA) Windage (MOA) Velocity

600 -0.0 -0.0 23.5 3.7 1947.4
1290 -464.2 -34.4 142.7 10.6 1121.7


6.5 SAUM @ 3150

Range Drop (in) Drop (MOA) Windage (MOA) Velocity

600 -0.0 -0.0 20.1 3.2 2192.8
1470 -580.9 -37.7 168.2 10.9 1117.7

Originally Posted by excaliber
We all want faster cartridges but at what point is barrel life a concern? The 6.5x284 is one of the most accurate cartridges of all time. It has roughly 1000rd barrel life, that is 1/2 moa life. Once accuracy gets worse than that, it`s time for me to change barrel. Since the 6.5 SAUM uses more powder, I assume barrel life will be around roughly 800rds at 1/2moa. I know that some barrels last longer than others but you get the idea. If barrel life isn`t a concern, then why not just neck down the 338 Norma and be done with it? With todays high BC 7mm bullets, 180gr & (195gr hopefully soon) from Berger, why even use the 6.5? Seems like people want the newest cartridge (wildcat) but in reality is it going to beat what is already out there?


George Garder replies

"6.5x284 to get 2950 out of the 140 is running in the 68,000 PSI range


6.5 SAUM is getting 3100 with the same bullet at 55,000 PSI


There is your difference.


Yes you can Hot Rod it and wear it out fast, thats not the point of the caliber. The whole premise of this was 4 things

1. to Humanly kill [bleep] to 1200 yards.

2. barrel life of 2500

3. low recoil

4. serious accuracy


It does all 4 better than anything else. There are cartridges that do one or 2 better but not all 4."





Above is a reply from George Gardner to Excaliber I found on Sniper's hide that sums up the concept of the 6.5 SAUM and gives a pressure value.

Sorry Sam I have no idea what kind of pressure a .270 WSM would have with 2 more grains of powder. I just remembered that George had given an indication of the pressure he was getting with the 6.5.

Russ

Downloaded, okay now I understand why it works.


My friend Rancho has one and he brought it up here this Fall. Fun to shoot.

Fair amount of humor here and from lotsa angles.

I shoot ShamWow,Whizzum,25-06,25-06AI,280 and 280AI...if only for starters. Folks is quick to drink KoolAid and it's funny. I've less than zero interest in buying a V8 and unplugging a coupla cylinders,to increase "engine life".

The ShamWow is a nice cartridge case design,but for high volume Utility pursuits,it'd be wayyyyyyy down on my list of parents. That ain't because I ain't shot it.(grin) The Whizzum is a better design and though I love it and shoot it hard,that parcel wouldn't be my Utility Vehicle either.

If forced to suffer a ShamWow based Utility Rifle,I'd want it in 7mm and flingin' 162's at 2950 or so...because it will easily and from a modest lengthed spout. It'll pack more ass,velocity and less drift,while being cheaper to shoot. Fact is,the cost savings in boolits per barrel life,will grant the next spout for free. Not that the jingle is a showstopper,but yet another inherent advantage.

There's no Magic and when talkin' that much case capacity,no free lunch either. A
.532" boltface S/A,is the last place I wish to be for Utility...though they's an exceedingly tough act to follow,as Niche Rifles go.

It's ALL about wind and Oooomph.

Hint.

Right Stink, maybe them 'shamwows" will win a LR match someday. I understand why the whizzum is vastly superior, what with its shorter neck and all, them caliber plus necks are vastly overrated. Everybody knows Gardner can't build a dam rifle that'll shoot, he oughta just git hisself a Montucky!

I feel like I'm playin' cards with my brother's kids.

Take_a_knee,
Now you dun did it!! get ready to be called a dumb [bleep]...
You just ruined a good thread!!

Squat-to-pee,

I get a kick outta your perpetual dumbfhuqqtitude and your incredible cluelessness. Someone who "knows" and "does" as "much" as you,had better be asking questions...instead of giving "answers".

You are a crumb nibbling lap dog and forever eager to try and drop names,which is funnier than [bleep]. "Surprisingly" enough,when it comes to you in the firsthand,you are lightyears shy of the requisite IQ to drive a Montucky,but you sure as schit can Whine about 'em and how they whipped your stupid ass. Laffin'!

I very much enjoyed your Neck Length Chronicles,you poor poor dumb kchunt.

It is a shame,that you are devoid the faculties to understand just how amazingly stupid you are,but ignorance is bliss and you are Blisseder than most.

Bless your heart.










'fubar,

You Whining Kchunt,it's always a treat to be regaled by you in regards to all the things you almost did,with all the wares you almost had and from all the places you've almost been.

As per always,it was a GOOD call to refrain all things The Rifle and stay steadfast with your perpetual Whine and the excuses.

The only thing you shoot is your mouth and Imagination.

Saums were really nice when guys were just giving them away.

What were they selling the SS m7's on clearance? $499?

Shoulda bought a pallet of them.

I don't need 1200 yd reach, but the Shamu is a hot one.

I Like low recoil, blast, good bbl and brass life, and all the nuance you get with a modest 6.5, for me most of what I do can easily be handled by a 47, Creedmoor, or 260.

If I NEEDED LR reach, the SAUM is a good one, as is a 7RM or WSM with proper bullets, albeit more recoil. No free lunch for performance, and it is not linear with powder/brass/barrel consumption. You pay to play.

Wonder how a 270 Win, WSM, or the 7 Mags do with the new Noz LRAB, as they are made to work in OEM twist. Just a thought, but I would assume very well, perhaps a few extra turret clicks.

If money were no object, I would happily run larger 6.5s, and have a few spare pre-chambered bbls ready to replace the last one I burned out. Same as the larger 6s.

Like running a fast sports car or hot rod. Question, how fast do you want to go? Answer...how much money can you spend...

My M7 7 Saum, in a McM Classic Edge is something to behold.. (grin) It comes in at 7.5 with a 6x42 and shoots real nice off a pack. 162s at 2930 and I've got some 150 etip blems coming for unleaded needs. We'll see if they shoot.

Like the contour on those models. Fluted like the XCR or not?

Nigh RM speeds - not bad.

Were I to build a ShamWow Niche Rifle,it'd be a dupe of my LFB,though wearing a #2 contour instead of a #3. It'd never begin to touch a Montucky for Utility,but it'd be a fun Play Toy.

I'd want a throat that kisses the 162 at 2.850" and would feed it DBM(Atlas) ala S/A 700 and 5rd AICS. The 162 at 2950fps,is a nice place to be and far from offensive to the shooter,sans brake.

I hear good things about 7mm's.(grin)




LFB

I ran some factory 7 WSM 160 AB loads at 1,000 once just for the sake of seeing what the factory ammo could do. The 10 shot group was just over 20". Handload 160 AB's could shrink that some, but not enough to mess with further. Barrel was 1:9 Bartlein. Have not tested the new version.

Stick, what's an LFB?

Saw and 8400 300WSM at a local shop today, felt light.

Laser fxxxxxg Beam....

TFF......too fk'n funny

Hey are you callin me a nimrod?

Yes, in fact I was. LOL.....

Notice I said "bull elk".

I bought 3 Remington SS 7 RSAUM's for $439. 2 are new, never fired. They had 9 of them wished I bought them all.

Well as long as you acknowledge Nimrod was a hunter of note.

I did crackalack a bull this year with the 6.5mm (.264 Win Mag).

Range finder was reading in 4 digits. Might have passed with the .243 Win.


I am waiting for Lil Fish to expound on the 162gr AMAX @ 2950fps beating the 140gr VLD at 3100fps in the wind. Should be fun as he likes to guess.

Nice! See, I told ya it starts at 6.5.

Any video? You've spoiled us.

Have video. Cammeraman missed the first shot but it worked out because I took 3 to seal the deal. Actually the first would have done it but he stayed up long enough for me to hit him thrice.

I watched 162/2950 vs 140/3100 in a little wind the other day.....

How does the 6.5 SAUM go 300 fps faster than a 260 at significantly lower pressure with 20gr +/- more powder?

Is it the sharp shoulder angle or the long neck?

Magic sparkle dust.

Happy now?

I would put more faith in physics than magic, and it has nothing do with being happy.

I know what you mean. I am a little wary myself. I see velocities quoted with the 6.5SAUM that approach/rival the .264WM. Knowing the SAUM case has a little less capacity than the Win Mag case how is it possible to reach the velocities and run lower pressures?

I am currently running a .264WM and get tickled when I see 3200fps with 140s. I don't have near the experience of most here but to see Pat say that he is getting the same speed with slightly less powder and 10KPSI less than a .264WM makes me question some math somewhere.

No, larger case capacity and burning slower powders.

Interesting point, I bet I can duplicate the 6.5 SAUM with a 6.5 Remington Magnum and not dick around with case forming.

All the cool people are building hot 6.5's now, get on D'train

Is a .257 a 6.5?

Very simply - it eats barrels the 260 doesn't

Is Grant's Pass almost the Northwest Territories?

Laughing...

Tanner

Two [bleep] hairs or .007 difference in diameter, miles apart in long range bullet selection.

Yep.... It is....

H1000 + freebore + long neck = MAGIC (or so we're told)

(or so you're shown).....somebody has to do it. Most of you won't step outside of the box.

I'm just not quite understanding how it's making the velocities claimed, due to the case capacity.

Is is being chambered with some freebore?

April 25th and 26th at this year's Icebreaker, there will be 8 or 9 guys shooting them. Come on up.

Base to lands: 2.215
Base to ogive: 2.185
COAL: 2.820(139gr scenar)

30 thousandts jump isn't much freebore.

I'm not making this up as I go along.....

Rifles with excessive freebore, generally won't shoot like this...



Easy to see why I like it.

Thanks for the invite Pat, and thanks for providing the info. Good to see first hand info.

I would very much like to make it up there this spring, I've tried the last couple years but always ended up with a branding or storm to deal with!

scenarshooter, looks like a win over the 260 if those loads are truly 53K psi.

Hope you can make it! We'll have two wall tents this year with wood stoves, and a huge pot of homemade chili going all day.

The weather just can't be any worse than it's been the last three years.....but you never know!

One of Team GAP's competiton shooters has done pressure testing with the SAUM and those numbers appear to be accurate.

We're hoping to have commercial brass in the future. With the high demand on ammunition and components right now, it may take awhile, but it will get done.

Pat,

Are your results with the standard 24" GAP barrel length, or is there a longer expansion chamber at work here?

Peak pressure is one thing (and obviously important), but I'd be interested in seeing the pressure curve, area under the curve, etc. Any idea if this info is available?

Thanks,

Jason

If brass is ever made commercially I bet you would sell a few more rifles. I sure believe I would buy one if they did.

pat,

can you give us a run down of some of the more notable users of this cartridge and updated round counts.

the other question is since you have seen a good number of animals taken with this, given ideal conditions, what is the max yardage you would take on the following animals,

mule deer,
bull elk,
black bear,
basically what do you think is the effective range of round given the size of each animal. weather and shooting conditions aside.

Sam O has shot mine, and gave it the thumbs up.

That's all you need to know.

Impressive shooting Pat. Thanks for the info. I'm a huge .260 Rem. fan, but it pales in comparison to what your 6.5 SAUM is doing there. How is the recoil in comparison to say....a .30-06 with a max loaded 180 gr. bullet?

With 6 (yes SIX) 7saum's in the safe, 2 built on l/a ; 3 built on s/a & 1 on a mld7 with 19" brux barrel (fav) ..Guess what's being built at my smiths?

Bud Light almost just went up my nose when I read that.

Notice I did not refer to it as beer.


Seriously though, that is a sweet setup.

It was breezy that day but your Super Sham was way easier to get hits with compared to my 257 Roberts. We were only shooting out to 509 yards but it still wasn't even close.



I know I quizzed you out already but what velocity and bullet?

140 VLD's just over 3,000 fps mv.

140 amax's have been running sweet lately..

That's right, didn't we shoot some of each?


How about slumming a 270 WSM with the fancy new LR Accubond?

Details on the rifle?

Ford Fiesta action
PTG shroud and pin
Bartlein 5r #3 1-8 @ 24"
Mickey classic arctic
BAD bottom metal
Accurate mag
Talleys
VX3 2.5-8x36 w/ moa elevation and TMR

The lowest wholesale close-out price on stainless/synthetic Remington 7s in 7mm and 300 SAUM that I've seen, back in early 2007, was $428. IIRC, you could buy the blued CM version in a laminated stock for the same price. I like stainless, so I bought a couple of the stainless 7mm SAUMs, having seen Mule Deer post that the 7mm SAUM was just a short action 280AI.

I wish that I'd bought more of the 0.473" bolt face stainless 7s when they were on close-out for $430 at the same time in early 2007.

Back in late 2003, I bought a 700 SPS in 270 WSM as a donor for a 6.5 WSM, but made the often repeated mistake(?) of shooting the donor and decided that, for me, the advantage of having a factory specs rifle and factory loaded ammo was greater than the lure of the 6.5 WSM. For deer, black bear, and elk hunting purposes, where sub-MOA accuracy is nice but not mission critical, what advantage does the 6.5 SAUM have over either the 270 WSM or 7mm SAUM out to 600 yards? Although I've never shot anything but pdogs at that range, I guess that there are situations that require a guy to reach farther out if you want to punch a tag.

Jeff

I drank the 6.5 Saum koolaid ands its damn good!!.Everything that Pat has posted is no BS.I have #12 Xtreme hunter and it shoots outstanding!

I have shot a 264 Mag since the mid 80's.A 6.5-284 before in was norma. And been shooting a 260 when it 6.5-308.

This 6.5 Saum is the real deal.264 mag performance in a short action.I think with the right bullet you can kill game as far or farther than you can see.
Now I'm waiting on my pointed 130 bergers to get here.

RS

Pat doesn't spook easily. If he's excited about the chambering, there's a reason.

Having shot George's 6.5 SAUM at the last IBS, I can tell you that using that thing on the 800 and 900 meter plates was like cheating. Those are some wind defying, accurate little missiles.

I have several 0.264" barrels gathering dust, so the 6.5 SAUM is something to consider. If we move to the mountains of Colorado, I may find it necessary to shoot stuff at longer ranges than are typical here in eastern Nebraska.

Jeff

Rancho's 6.5 in a more suitable habitat....grin

Those missiles are small but deadly!

RS

Like ying and yang

Nice mix of parts.

That's one sexy dude working that AR..

Laughin'...

Everybody bring a hat and snowblower!


Travis

I've been stockpiling brass for a 6.5 Rem. Mag. build on a CLR long 28 magnum action. From what I've read and seen here on the 'fire and elsewhere, it looks like stretching out that COAL and throating appropriately for the 130-140 VLD type bullets makes for a pretty efficient, LR 6.5 as well. Certainly nippin' at the heels of the 264 WM with less powder and presumably less pressure.

Would love to see a side by side comparison on these two (6.5 SAUM vs 6.5 Rem. Mag.), as they seem to be the most similar in the discussion other than the "belt" and the LA vs SA consideration.

Seems like a 700 Ti 6.5 Rem Mag. with some mag. box alterations would make for an interesting SA option to level the field a little bit as well! Just thinkin'.

Very true ! We were shootin' steel during our 2nd annual speed goat hunt too with Extreme Hunters # 1,2 and 3.

6.5 SAUM... It is a true Wind cheater:)



Not to mention George's first round shot on an antelope at 1286 yards !

Tag for future reference

6.5's really suck don't they.

If you were shooting a 7mm/162 amax no doubt you would be killing them out to 2,000 yds.

GREAT..I thought my 300 ultra mag was a winner until I saw the 338 edge...thought my 6.5x284 was a winner until I see this... I give up , my wallet cant keep up anymore

2 questions :



Would a 6.5-280AI, in a LA be as capable as the 6.5 SAUM ?
ie is there an inherent advantage to the SAUM ?

Cheers !

In my 6.5-06 AI (24" barrel) I can push 140 Bergers to 3050 with 60 grains H-1000, but case life is not the best. And mine is way more accurate than Pat's rifle

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8400297/Clarkm#Post8400297

Smoke,

What powders did you try with yours? I was getting 3000 with a max load of RL17 out of a 24" in my 6.5-284 and thought the 6.5 Ackley could do better than that. Been debating rebarreling my 9.3 to either a 6 or 6.5 Ackley.

Note, I may have been running stiff pressures in the 6.5-284. I know 'traditional' pressure signs don't mean much but I had no sticky bolt but brass was only good for about six firings.

Mojo, with the 140's I went straight to H-1000 and it shot so accurately that I didn't look further. Mule Deer had written about H-1000 in his 6.5-06, it seems to work well with 140's in 6.5's of similar capacity. I also get 120 NBT's to 3250-ish with R-22, and 130 S-II's to 3100-ish with 7828.

I'll be bringing mine for sure

I'll go if you promise me good weather.

When it gets gnarly out, just walk toward this tent.




Travis

I'm not getting roofied again, no way.

I tried plugging Ice Breaker into mapquest to figure out how how long it would take to drive from Indy. It's a haul...

I'm going to try to come up this year. I may be the only one that only brings one rifle...

Tanner

Tanner, I swear you have built a dozen rifles in the last year, but you can only find one?

One is all he needs....

I bet he knows how to use it!

Nah... I've only "built" 3 or 4 this past year (more like cobbled together 85% factory rifles with different stocks). College is expensive. Glass, packs, and boots are more important than rifles at this point! I'm happy with the one or two I'd bring, though....

Tanner

How much money you spend on the birds?

Birds, as in wimminz or pheasants?

Tanner

Wimmins, dumbazz.._

Why would I spend money on those?

Tanner

dumbass, It appears College isn't working....

You can still be my friend though.

The ratio of desired outcome to money spent is significantly higher in college than post-college

hint...

Yes, I've read about everything that I think you've written about it here and on SH.

I just cannot get my head around the lower pressures that are claimed with high velocity, in comparison to a standard 260.

Same here. I don't understand how you can push 140's as fast as a .264WM with less powder AND less pressure.

I'm not arguing or calling anyone a liar, I'm just saying that it doesn't make sense to me.

Just checked Hodgdon's online data for the 264 Win and H1000. It shows 60.4gr with a 130gr bullet and 58.5gr with a 140gr. Both were roughly 62k psi.

In Pat's posts, he's showing 62-63gr with a 130gr bullet and 61.5gr with the 139 Scenar. Both are a few grains higher than the 264 load from Hodgdon.

I know... the bullets are different so we need to take this comparison with salt but unless the burn rate for H1000 is being changed somehow in the 6.5 SAUM, I don't see how a case with smaller water capacity (I think) with a heavier charge is getting higher velocities with 88% of the pressure

And minimal freebore?

I don't get it. Would love to see lab data for the 6.5 SAUM.

The Hodgdon data for a .264 is worked up with a 130 gr accubond and a 140 gr partition ( I Believe). If you substitute a 130 gr. berger for the accubond and a 139 gr scenar for the 140 gr. partition the pressures in the loads will have ALOT less pressure, all else being equal in the .264. The bearing surfaces and construction of the bullet themselves will have a significantly more drag causing pressure. You have to compare cartridges with identical components.

Also read some posts at the Hide stating that George got 3k rounds from the 6.5 SAUM, but the barrel was setback once during that round count. Others saying 3k round life is reasonable and some burning barrels with less.

Another said that the "low pressure loads" George is now using run 3000 fps? So the low pressures stated are true, but not in combination with the higher velocities.

Maybe someone has more info and insight on this as its just hearsay.

J

Agreed, that's why I said to take it with salt.

Maybe two grains

Two heaping scoops (from a small spoon) and a side serving of pressure data

Hmm... I need to get a 6.5 SAUM and commandeer the strain gage equipment from the lab at work

Here's your problem: That's not just a "140 grain bullet" in Hodgdon's chart, it's a Nosler Partition. The 130 is the conventional Accubond. I'm pretty sure Pat's not shooting Partitions (or Accubonds) and if you compare the bullets he's shooting to a Partition side-by side, you'll see the Partition's bearing surface is a lot longer, as is the Accubond's.

If you look at Berger's data for their 140's, they don't show H-1000 but for the powders they do show, their upper limit exceeds the Hodgdon data by a good bit in every case. For example, Hodgdon shows Retumbo's max at 63.5 grains with the 140 NP, and Berger shows 68.5 grains with their 140's. So the Hodgdon data do not seem very applicable.

Ooops, Edited to add, just saw that Wyoming already covered this, but I'll leave it up for the Retumbo data from Berger.

Good point Smoke.

Jason

I wish I worked somewhere there was a strain gauge to "Borrow" but then my .260 loads would probably need reworking if I knew the real pressure numbers!!!!!!!!!!
My defense is the Remington brass I use lasts quite a few loadings and its so consistent I do not want to mess with it....