Guys,

While we all would like to have one hole , quarter minute accurate rifles, in a hunting weight, portable gun thats not easy to come by.:)

I am curious what is the minmum acceptable accuracy you require on demand from a long range big game rifle ( deer to elk sized targets)?

To keep the responses relatable and unconfusing- answer using these parameters-


Accuracy requirement from the rifle is in MOA from a solid field rest under good conditions at whatever is the LONGEST distance you are comfortable shooting...

My personal requirement is 1 MOA for three quick shots prone off my pack.

My rifle is 7lbs ALL UP.

And,on deer size game, I feel that limits me to 600yards max in my mind. Elk as well because even though the target is bigger, the power is lacking to go further.

What say you?

3 shot, 1" @ 100 yards works for me if the group does not string and is there week to week. I like Warren Page's 1 shot group idea. Once a month fire one round at the same target for 12 months and see what you get. I am not sure a benchrench rifle would give you 1 moa. Hunting season can vary from 95 degrees to -30 here . Leftys idea is a sound one, imo

At one time I had a 2MOA rifle that I used to take my first elk. It was ranged at 400 yards. I knew it would hit within 4" of my aiming point since there was zero wind. 400 was my my absolute maximum range for elk with that rifle and about 200 yards for deer. Now I much prefer less than 1MOA.

I just develop the best loads possible without preconceived goals, as a simple change in bullet or powder batch can change everything.
That is why we try combinations in the first place, to allow the rifle to tell you what it prefers.

Had a .338 Mark V that shot 2-6 inch groups at 50 yards no matter what was loaded. After trying a dozen or more bullets and loads I pulled the damn thing apart and rechecked everything, including the mounts, bases and scope, to find a very slight contact point on the forend of the stock. Opening it up and floating the barrel dropped the loads under and inch at 50 yards so now I can take it out to longer ranges and fine tune the seating depth for best results.

So far the best 2 bullets are 225gn Hornady and 250gn Partition which isn't a bad combination for the .338 caliber anyway.

Nuts. 8 inch group, when the extremes of both ends are added in, won't hit within 4 inches. Then that assumes you have a perfect hold and have doped the wind and range perfectly also. Both of which we know are impossible.

Thats where most folks go wrong IMHO.

Half the size of the intended target is a good start for my requirements. And that doesn't mean overall animal size.

excepting that testing at 100 yards means NOTHING at long range.... it may or may not be relative at all.

Half the size of the target at the max distance under field conditions will quickly give you realistic info for your actual max range. Its generally not nearly as far as most think.

Mine are five shots at near MOA at 400 Yards on a light to no wind day with a quality controlled expanding bullet.

I guess you didn't get the part about no wind. And yes I did have a perfect hold. I was laying over a berm and was as steady as if I was on a bench with sandbags. And I didn't guess at the range I ranged it. So I guess you should have written "Both of which I don't know."

This!

I rarely shoot 100 yards other than to confirm my zero. During load development, after shooting two ladders to establish and refine nodes, all groups are shot at 500 yards. The chamberings I hunt with run out of steam for reliable bullet expansion between 500-600 yards so that's the limit for shooting at large critters for me. The rifle needs to hold better than MOA at those ranges and .75 to .5 is preferred. All groups are 4 shot in my hunting rifles, because that's what fits in the magazine. I prefer 5 shot groups, but with a sporter weight barrel especially in a magnum chambering, things can start walking around a bit after too many.

So you actually think you can hold perfectly still? Thats part of the reason you are nuts. And no wind? What about mirage then. Knowing full well how often we get no wind, total true no wind... And range... even with a rangefinder you will be off some very often. Sometimes enough to matter.

Bottom line you commenting in this thread with your history is funny as heck to me. But then YMMV. If that makes you feel better.

Wind low enough, yes, mirage acceptable or accounted for yes, range close enough, yes, wobble small enough yes. To get the job done. But to still think that every last round you fire will impact within 4 inches in any direction of the aiming point, truly shows what little you actually know. Reminds me of me as a kid in the 70s....

Milk jugs.

10 for 10.

That's my accuracy requirement for all things hunting.




Dave

That will work

I don't use a group size requirement but rather a distance limitation. That distance is the longest range I can count on getting a 1st round hit on on my 8" steel plates. My current rig will routinely put 5 shots in .3 to .5" at 100. I have put 3 shots in 2" at 500 yards several times with the same rig. But for whatever reason, getting that 1st round on an 8" plate past 600 is really hard. Once I get on that plate, I can stay on it, but I'm not a fan of spotting shots on any animal I have any respect for. Coyotes and pigs always have a round launched at them no matter what the odds of a clean kill shot are.

John

I have a 7x57 ruger tanger that shoots better groups one round a day then it does 3 or 5 shot groups in a sitting. It likes the barrel about nasty fouled and dead cold and it's first shot is Money. Get it warm and it is a 1.5" gun no matter what..........

rost495,

Perfectly still is not necessary for precision shooting. Besides, I didn't say that. That is a strawman you created. It was early in the morning. There was no mirage. In fact there was the slightest drizzle coming straight down. We in the Rogue Valley have lots of mornings with not even a breeze. It sure appears your experience and mine are a lot different.

I am glad I can entertain you. That was not the objective, though. It was to cooperate with the original poster.

I don't remember him asking us to comment on others' posts.

You get the last word on this one.

I like to start with groups under.5 at a hundred and make sure the velocity is where I want it. Then get all my data at 500, 800, 1000 and depending on the rifle beyond. I really like to get 5" groups at 1000 but not all guns are equal and at this moment I only have 6 rifles that I can be sure will do just that. Have several others that will do 3/4 MOA to 1000. But it's more the nut behind the trigger than the trigger most the time. 👍🏼

Dang fred, I feel for ya. You can borrow some of mine if you want, all my rifles are sub 0.5 MOA to 1000.

Looks like somebodys been shootin' with Trystan lately.....

I'd like to see some 5" groups at a thousand.

Maybe even a video.

Tomorrow.

In 2008 I built 270 a pre 64 M70 with Bordan stock, Pac Nor barrel, Harris bi pod, and a VX1 2x7 scope.
I went to the 100 yard range here in the suburbs and shot a 1.5" group.

Then I proceeded to kill my first deer at 400 yards. I missed a lot of deer with hold over, but I got 5 deer that year.

Then on Thanksgiving day 2008, I had 76 elk walking toward me and I opened fire at 620 yards. I shot up all 13 rounds I had and went back to the truck for more ammo.

At the truck, my hunting buddy who had been shooting big game for 40 years, told me off.

Since then I have built dozens of rifles, but I always practice at long range. I don't shoot at an animal unless I know I can keep 5 holes in a 10" circle at that range.

Today I am building a Sav 12 250 Savage. It will be given long range trials 900 miles from here 2 weeks before hunting in October.
That rifle may have adequate accuracy at 400 yards or 600 yards.

I no longer pay much personal attention to 100 yard groups made at some suburban range, but they are a good yardstick for internet discussion.

Hitting what I am shooting at first shot, where I want to hit it.

Went to the range today and confirmed dope on 2 rifles. Then shooting from sitting off my sticks I alternated shots on 8" steels at 300 & 400 yards w/ 10 consecutive hits, 5 at each range. I used a day pack in my lap to support my elbows. I will do this at least once/week until I leave to hunt. Offhand I limit myself to around 100 yards.


mike r

Awesome!

dry jugs or wet? size does matter MB

A pair of jugs always takes me away from my sighting in session. JMHO

One gallon.

Always wet.

If you can hit them with any given combo 10 times out of 10, it's a safe bet afield.

60% of the time it works. Every time.




Dave

It's the one and only shot fire. No video on hand with groups if I get around to it and I have a day as wind friendly as this was I just might have to try.
https://youtu.be/Q8Ax9W2H54A
But I'm no trystan all my rifles hit the 13+pound mark and not a Tikka in the bunch.

That's a coors can no pussy lightbeer.
1000 with 300 berger at 2820 with 86 gr of h1000 Winchester LMR primers and Norma brass.

For scale




Hig probably a better chance of me shooting 1/2 MOA at 1000 than of you not being a fat [bleep]. Lol.

Flavor flav is right on killing a set of jugs 10 fur10 is all it takes. Once that can't be done there's your line.

Nice group Trystan.

You know it sister.

Higbean.
Point is the cats got mad skills. Here's to you wishing you could to.
Ps cold bore first round hits at 1000!! those groups are bound to suck. Lol.

Was that a bang/flop?

I bet the pack out was brutal....

RESCUE COOLER!!!!

I sat on that hill all morning waiting for the coors can to cross the road. Bang flop was mommas buck at 530 couple years back.

You know it had to put two more to death after the hike. LOL. Thank god they come in packs not singles.

Good thing you had something similar to beer.

I like my rifles used for LR shooting to be capable of at least 0.75 MOA precision on average, if not better. Actual field results at distance of 1 MOA will kill critters just fine out to medium range of about 600-700 yards. Of course groups shot on steel during practice are usually a bit smaller than when improvising in the field.

Tell me about it, local store was out of skunk beer. 😎

Jordan is also spot on with his assessment and requirements.
I would also add that knowing your ability and when not to take a shot is just if not more important than the guns capability. Practice makes perfect.
A .3 MOA rifle is great but a 20 mph wind will make it useless at 1000 if not driven properly

a puss with an Afro would have brought you back faster.

arrogance works for some too. Or is it ignorance.

I like to stay under MOA. Better is nice and fun, but isn't as huge a factor as many like to believe. Cold bore, consistency and wind-drift are bigger factors.You don't get sighters when hunting, and seldom get to shoot groups or strings.

What is "MOA" to you? Is that MOA regardless of point of impact? Is it "MOA" when you occasionally have a MOA group? Is it MOA for 3 rounds? 5? 10? Is it MOA only if it hits a 1 MOA target everytime on demand?

While the common usage is the ability of the rifle to shot 1 MOA groups, to me, a more meaningful standard for a "1 MOA" rifle means the shooter can hit a 1 MOA target with the cold bore shot with the set-up as it will be used in the field including the scope and ammo.

Under field conditions, cold, tired, stiff, wind, and a sub-optimal shooting position can easily double or triple the size of the results compared to a controlled range session.

For hunting, what matters is the ability to hit the intended point of aim with the cold bore shot.

That really depends on what you consider long range to be. I'm not comfortable shooting far with guns or loads that won't do moa. I like the idea of stretching out shots more than the reality though, usually because of crazy winds/updrafts/downdrafts that can come into play. I don't have a dedicated LR rig, just some guns that shoot accurately and flat enough with the right bullets.

I'm comfortable stretching out an '06 with 185 VLD to beyond 600, because it is utterly predictable when the wind is cooperating. It shoots well below moa: 2/3" at 100, 1.5" at 300, 4 and some change at 600. I've done that enough to be confident in it over and over again, as long as I get serious about it.

So, my standard is well under moa in conditions where wind isn't a factor, say .8 moa. I doubt I'll shoot at anything past about 600 yds though. It has been a good sensible max for me.

I like 3 shots one hole at 100 yards.

Thats pretty much where I am. I am simply not willing to hump around a rifle heavy enough to make sure kills on game past 600 yards in my hands.

My 7lb 308 is doing well under MOA with my 155g Scenar handloads and working to get that down to conisstently close to or at .5 MOA before I call it good.

.5 @ the 100 or all the way to 600?





Dave

I'm routinely amazed how easily guys with a "1/2 MOA Gun" will repeatedly miss 2 MOA targets... almost regardless of range...

Or milk jugs..

Me three.




Dave

Four

Got the 105hpbt with 49grains of RL26 in .665" for five at 100yards. 22" 243AI that's happy happy happy enough for LR.
How much milk do you guys drink? I would be out of targets way to quick.

What is "MOA" to you?

For the purpose of this thread, I was referring to the mechanical precision of the load and rifle and only that.

Is that MOA regardless of point of impact?

In this case, and referring to answer #1, yes.

Is it "MOA" when you occasionally have a MOA group?

Of course not, that would be dumb.

Is it MOA for 3 rounds? 5? 10?

In the case of my "Over-bore" Hunting rifles 3. In the case of my FTR rifle, 15 and 2 sighters. Our V-Ring is 1/2 MOA.

Is it MOA only if it hits a 1 MOA target everytime on demand?

Wouldn't that be something? Last weekend I was going from 6 MOA left to 6 MOA right wind from shot to shot with a rear fish tailing wind at the 1000 yard line. A 1 MOA target every time on demand is a nice fantasy.

There's a reason I call the 12" round Steel Gong at 600 yards the "Plate of Humble Pie"... again, I'm amazed at how many "half inch rifles" can't put bullets on that 2 MOA plate.... especially the ones built to "shoot 1000 yards".

We have a 2 MOA at the 300 and it's amazing how few rounds hit that thing.




Dave

A lot of guys would be surprised at a 1.5" rifle on it too.

Yep.




Clark

Yep. The farthest plate on my place is 830 yards. It's a 12" plate. When I get on it, I have no trouble staying on it. But a first round hit on it doesn't come as often as I would like it to. The rest of my plates are 8". 1st round hits are a given up to 600. At 600, for whatever reason, things start getting pretty interesting. This is from a rig that routinely puts its favorite load in the .3s to .5s. That's five shots, not three.

Point being there is a whole bunch more going into hitting targets at extended range than just the rifle's mechanical accuracy capability.

Here's four rounds at 830 from a few days ago. Prone w/ bipod from the bed of my truck. I was pretty happy with that. 4shot group measured 3.5" with tape measure.

John

I agree that 6-700yds is where things tend to get less consistent for me.




Dave

My sight in spot has a 100 yard backstop for sight in, and a couple of rocks at 500 yards and one at 800 yds, all three painted orange, for long range verification. In my mind, if I'm consistent at 800, and keep my hunting shots within 500, I'm good. I have two dedicated big game/long range hunting rifles.....a 300 win shooting 200 gr accubonds and a 338 rum shooting 225 gr accubonds. At 500 yds, both rifles shoot a "skinny" moa, usually keeping 3 shots within 4"....even with a light and variable crosswind. At 800, I still run a "skinny" moa, but only vertically. With that same "light and variable" crosswind, my groups run 6" vertically X 10" horizontally.....and this is with a LIGHT and variable breeze. The 6" is passable, but I don't trust the size of the horizontal group, for big game (where only 1st shot bulls-eyes count). The amount of wind at any given time, at distance, has the final say under big game hunting conditions.....varmints don't get that courtesy! I once read where trajectory is science and wind drift is voodoo. I couldn't agree more!

Andy3

You have to remember there`s a difference between a 1/2 inch rifle and a 1/2 inch shooter. Being a 1/2 inch shooter is much more difficult to become...at any range. Seen this many times when shooting HP. 90% of the shooters blame the 1/2 inch gun..and never won a match. Shooting at game with that mentality could have very painfull results for the game, and an animal never recovered.
I find very few hunters shoot enough to become proficent with the guns used..many cause they do not have a place to shoot, but long range shooting/hunting attracts many of these folks.
A man needs to know HIS limitations.

By the time accuracy matters, wind matters a lot more. Nothing wrong with wanting it all, but there is such a thing as putting all your efforts into the wrong area. Shaving .100" off a hundred yard group might be an entertaining hobby, but the chances of it changing your long range hunting success is about zero. Cut your wind drift in half with cartridge and bullet choice and you are starting to get somewhere. Improving your first round wind-calls will do more than months of load development.

.5 MOA rifle to 1000 yards.

MOA needed? zero. i hunt.

Congrats Federica! You gonna fill in some details?

MOA needed zero i hunt too.

Bear truck is windy i wanted but wasn't.

LMAO.





Dave

Smoke 300 WM 210 LRAB 140 yards. one bear tag down one to go. 73grain of retumbo cci250. Rifle is a stiller predator action Douglas and 1-11t in a McMillan stock.

Hig you think drink for meow here kitty kitty. Lmao. talk to type sucks. Oh that was a bear for the guys standing on the sidelines. No guide on fancy bs just killing. Stay tuned it's just getting started. I have tags that look like a coupon book. Lol.

All your tags are belong to us.

Hig how does your tag load look.
We will have 7 elk hanging before November ends. Deer don't stand a chance.
And every rifle I field shoots sub MOA to 1000. You would be surprised how a little practice and a keen eye rings X's.
Oh and notice the fat joules lmfao.

Got a few good ones this year though it only takes one of the California tags to fill a wallet. Damn things are huge.

Best of luck post pictures.

A deer's kill zone is 12" so I make that my target size (12" plate) and have to be able to put shots within half of that at the longest distance I'll shoot.

The Gunwerks guys say a seven-shot group no larger than 0.75 MOA is the gold standard.




P

Looks like I'm there with my .270!

Post some pics of those groups. Please... A 3/4 moa 7 shot group consistent rifle is pretty good. I can see why that would be a gold standard.. 1 moa 10 shot groups are my "gold standard". As are Sub moa 5 shot groups and I don't shoot 3 shot groups too often. I'm also sure they meant "consistent" accuracy. Day in day out. 5 groups on the same paper/target with appropriate poa/poi. Like this for example:



We can all get lucky every once in a while and pull off a damn nice group with damn near any good rifle. But to find one that shoots good consistently, that is the one you want/keep...