I'm not trying to start a $hitstorm here, but assuming a rifle built to the GAP Xtreme hunter spec, why not just go 7rsaum? I've been gathering the parts to build just such a rifle, in 6.5, but I'm starting to think that all things being equal, ballistic performance is pretty much a wash, while the 7 is slinging a larger bullet which can only help with terminal performance, while the larger bore should help with bore life. Recoil shouldn't be much of an issue assuming you are running a brake. What am I missing here?

Differences in recoil if you aren't running a brake (I won't, on a hunting gun) are substantial between a 7mm 180 and a 6.5 140. Shooting pointed 130s at 3300fps is something I recall scenarshooter Pat doing, and that's tough to compete with.

That being said, I think both cartridges make a lot of sense. The 6.5 SAUM I had was pretty deadly on animals, and I'd like to build another.

Tanner

mpwolf,

I don't know if this is pertinent here or not. I used to shoot jackrabbits with a .454. A friend purchased a .44 Mag. I told him, "If you let me work up a load for that I will return it with 200 loaded rounds." He jumped at the chance at free ammo. Anyway occasionally the .44 would wound a jackrabbit. The .454 just didn't do that. The .44 was firing 240 grainers about 1,400 feet per second. The .454 was firing 300 grainers at about 1,600 feet per second.

My conclusion is the larger diameter seems to be a little better. Therefore I would go with the 7mm based on this apples to oranges comparison. And yes either one I hunted with would have a good brake.

You can’t go wrong with either one. I shoot 140’s in my 7 Rem mag and my 264 Win mags. The 264 has a touch less recoil. Both will kill anything as far as you can hit it. There isn’t but a few inches difference in holdover at 400 yards.

I think it's the larger bullet that is in the back of my mind. Where I am, any long range opportunities will likely be on moose, and bigger is better in that situation.

180 Scenars hit 2950 in my 25" 7mm and I am very pleased all the way around. I have smaller and larger bores but this is hard to beat as an all arounder.

I have rifles in both cartridges.

The 7mm SAUM with a 162/168gn bullet and a 26in barrel is good for just a touch over 3000fps (mine gets 3040fps).
The 6.5 SAUM with a 140gn bullet and a 24in barrel is good for just under 3100fps (I use 130gn Berger VLDs at 3250fps).

The 143gn 6.5mm ELD-X has a G7 BC of 315.
The 162gn 7mm ELD-X has a G7 BC of 315.

At any given range the 6.5mm bullet will shoot slightly flatter, the 7mm bullet will carry more energy at any useful distance. Heavier 7mm bullets start slower and the BC does not make up for the lower velocity within useful ranges.

In a lightweight rifle, the recoil from the heavier bullet is noticeably more.

For most hunting the 6.5mm would be the choice in a lighter rifle without resorting to a brake. For Moose at ranges past 400m I would be going larger than the 7mm, but the 7mm would certainly be my choice over the 6.5mm for the reasons you have stated - more bullet weight (and more importantly, stiffer construction).

To me bore life is about equal - somewhere around 1500 rounds the barrel will start to lose accuracy.

Pass the sixfive.

I really enjoy shooting my 6.5 Saum easy on the shoulder and super accurate!

Thanks Adamjp=- that's pretty much what I was getting at.

Unless I made an incorrect calculation neither of these rifles will recoil more than 20 ft/lb. with a copy of the GAP Xtreme hunter rifle which weighs 9 lb.
IMO you don't need a brake for a hunting rifle that has such low recoil..

The cool factor goes to the 6.5 Gap cartridge but the 7 SAUM is no slouch either. The 7 SAUM is one of the 1000 yd BR darlings and for good reason.

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/?s=7+saum&submit=Search

I know and love the 7 rsaum well, as I have two- a 7.5 lb hunting rifle in a mcmillan compact, and a 14lb chunk in an A5, wearing a brake. The GAP Extreme hunter has been bugging me ever since I saw the thread on snipers hide, over 3 years ago. There's something about that whole package that grabbed me, and I've had a case of the hot running wants ever since. There's no way I'll be able to justify ordering one straight from GAP, so I've beeen squirrelling away the parts to build a similar rifle that won't be identical, but should have the characteristics that made me gravitate towards it in the first place. The two remaining things I need to decide on are chambering, and whether or not to brake. I'm leaning toward sticking with the 7 to simplify the logistics, and going without a brake. I can always add one later if I decide I want one.

MP,

If it were me, and I am collecting parts and will have one built here soon, it will be 6.5 4S with Vias break. I have a 7 SAUM sitting in the safe and a #3 Bartlein barrel sitting in the corner of my office. I'll likely go Bansner stock as I have others built using the Bansner and I want similar ergos.

Like you say, I'm doing my best to incorporate all the characteristics. I'm certain that GAP built it the way they did for a reason. <grin>

Very hard to beat the 7 saum, its been my go to for a long while now. You can load it with lights and get fast and flat or heavies upto 195 which just isn't available in the 6.5.

I love my Model Seven 7 SAUM with the factory 22" barrel. It shoots 160 grain Accubonds at 2950 fps. I don't have any experience with the 6.5.

From what I’ve seen on the long range hunting threads, the 7 with a 180 hybrid works extremely well on elk. But so does the 140 out of a 6.5. Bring an accurate shooter with either cartridge, and bring a sharp knife....

The appeal of the 6.5 SAUM is the barrel life. Mild loads of H1000 can push the 140s over 3100 and not go over ~50k psi. Pretty sure George won the Snipershide Cup with over 4k rounds on the barrel. The "magic" of the 6.5 SAUM is magnum performance without magnum pressure or throat erosion. Supercruise. Maybe Pat can chime in with some other real world barrel round counts.

Using the same theory you can work the 270 WSM, 7mm SAUM and 7mm WSM.

George was looking for pressures like a 308, ie 53-58k. Not 50k.
Best node for long life with a 140 is 3000-3050. Running over 3100 gets you up into 60k pressure.

Yeah, I couldn’t remember if it was 50 or 55k George was going for. Hence the “~”.

Adam, yeah, you could try the reduced psi H1000 loads in the other cases, but it doesn’t seem to work as well in every case (not poo-pooing the idea, just throwing this out here). There’s more than a few variables that have to align. For example, this same H1000 lower pressure loading works amazingly well with a 6mm comp match (243 w/31* shoulder), but a few guys have tried it with 6mm AIs and reported minimal gains in barrel life, and ho-hum accuracy. I also spoke with the creator of the 6mm comp match and he said he’s noticed quite a distinction in performance between throat lengths that were .040” apart.

Pat shot a Shiras moose with his 6.5 Saum... think he even took a grizz... I could be wrong though about the grizz.

Bottom line, it's a BA cartridge that'll take down any North American game animal with ease.

Like you, I have a Bart #3 and M70 stainless action sitting at LRI right now for fluting and chambering in 6.5 4S and it'll be going in a Bansner in a few weeks

Surprised!
I thought I read a thread over on SH in which Chad said he sold all his tooling for the 6.5 Saum as he said his customers were having nothing but problems with them!

Nope. Have called and had several conversations with them over there at LRI. I think I read that older thread as well and they've since gone with the GAP reamer and felt really good about doing the work.

btt

Interesting, given the miniscule difference in bullet diameter. The same with the many arguments over .277 vs .284. But, there is a difference.

This

Hate brakes on hunting rifles