I'm new on this site, but I'm not new on this planet. I'm going to get around to asking about bullet selection for my situation but I'll give you some background first, I'm developing strategies for continuing to hunt as I get older. Part of my plan is to become able to ethically shoot out to the limits available on my property. If I don't move dirt, that's about 400 yds, maybe 600 if I cut a few shooting lanes. That may only seem like medium range to some of you, but it's far enough to need a strategy to improve into. This is mainly to fill the freezer and manage the whitetail deer population by hunting does in the Late Antlerless season which is in late December in Northern Michigan. I also plan to pop any coyotes that come into view. Conditions will usually be sub-freezing with 10-20mph crosswinds.

I've been practicing out to 300 yds. I'll stretch that when I get the blind in place where the shooting lanes intersect. I've been learning how to develop loads for my rifles, researching scope options, setting up a blind with good stable rests, and working on my shooting form. I'm prepared to devote significant energy to develop the skills I'll need. What I don't plan to do is sink a lot money into my rifles. In their own way, each seems adequate to the task. I might buy some better scopes, but my rifles seem to be capable of sub-MOA, so I want to work on getting the right hunting bullets for them.

My two "distance" rifles are a Browning A-bolt Medallion in 7mm Rem Mag and a Howa 1500 in 6.5X55 Swede. I also have a Ruger American in .308 Win, but I see that as a MPBR gun for use in the wooded areas of the property, although I do plan to work up loads for longer distance shooting. The A-bolt has a 4-16X42 Nikon Monarch BDC scope. The Howa 1500 has 3.5-10X44 NikkoStirling Gameking AO. The Ruger American has a 3-9X40 Sightron SI HHR.

I have some ideas about hunting bullets for each, but it seems like there are a few people around here with way more long range experience who enjoy recommending things, so I'm willing to be convinced that what you know is useful in my strategy. So thanks in advance for reasonable suggestions.

If I'm reading correctly, your saying: "I have these 3 guns, and I want to be more proficient in LR shooting and hunting. What do you recommend?"

IMO...

1) Grab the Ruger American 308. Bc its likely to be all the accuracy you'd want.
2) Add an SWFA SS 10x w/Mil-Quad in rail and rings. Known scope for LR.
3) Go buy some Fed Gold Match or Prime 308 or any other known 308 ammo.

If the ammo shoots - buy 500 rounds and never look back.

Thank you for pointing out my lack of specificity. I'm specifically asking which bullet(s) should I develop loads for, for each of these rifles. I will choose the rifle and load that I am most comfortable with, which may change over time.

7mm - 162/168/180 of Berger, Hornady, or Lapua variety.

6.5 - 130/139/140/147 of Berger, Hornady, or Lapua variety.

308 - 155 Scenar.

^ Add to that list a SWFA SS 10x, 3-9x, or better yet a LRHS 3-12x for each of those rifles, depending on budgetary restrictions, and you're ready to move forward without spending a ton of money.

Thank you. Somewhat surprised not to see any Nosler or Barnes.

I'm a Berger fan, out to 600 yds don't get caught up in alot of B.C numbers why they do count accuracy trumps. I would get the best scope your budget allows and pick one rifle and get to know its drops with your best handloads. I didn't used to think you needed 20X to shoot 500 and beyond but the more i shoot those distances and have a 5x20 on my dedicated ELR at times i have wished i had more. The old saying aim small hit small i think is true and with the crosshairs start covering the vitals when your stretched out there it becomes more difficult.

IMO the most important thing (after getting a decent load) is shooting a lot in windy conditions.

It is the only way to learn how to call wind. The more rounds you shoot during windy conditions the better you will be at it. You can can have the most accurate rifle around, but if you can't judge wind speed you'll miss a lot.

I hear that, and it's something I need to work on, but I get a lot of practice doing. My 300 yd target is an 8" gong and missing it on the first shot could mean a deer that goes far before dying. The prevailing winds at my site always seem to be crosswise to my NE shooting vector. One of these reasons that I'm not focusing on the .308 is the superior wind resistance of the longer narrower bullets in the 6.5 and 7mm.

I'm a fan of higher magnification also. If/when I change scopes, it will be a minimum 20X. And I like thin crosshairs, but I don't think I can stick to one rifle only unless it is the lowest recoiling. I may not be able to handle the 7mm RM for all my remaining years in the field, but I don't want to miss out on its benefits now. The 6.5mm is mild in comparison and I expect it to become my primary rifle eventually, but until that has to happen, I won't limit myself to it. The other two rifles are just superior in certainty of lethality, at least in my hands. That may change as I get more experience with the Howa.

I was really hoping to hear from more people about bullet selection. A friend favors plastic tipped bullets and especially those designed for expansion and weight retention. ballisticstudies.com lists many and talks about superior wound channels, but doesn't seem to take into account the optimum weight range for various twist ratios. The A-bolt has 1:9.5". The Howa has a 1:8". The Ruger has a 1:10". I'm favoring Alliant RL23 for the Howa and RL26 for the A-bolt and magnum primers for both, but if there are particular bullet/powder/primer combinations I should be considering, please let me know.

In the Howa, I’d look at the 143/147 ELDs from Hornady, the 139 Lapua Scenar, or the 130/140 Bergers,

The 162 Amax will always be the gold standard 7mm bullet.... but I don’t know if a short-boxed 1-9.5” twist is the best place to run them. Doubt you’ll get any of the 175/180 to stabilize in the A-Bort. I’ve shot the 160 Accubond out to 1/2 mile, and killed a buck with one at 550 yards last fall. It’s a pretty good all-around 7mm bullet.

Plenty of good advice given already. I agree with the berger comments. 168VLD in the 7mag is where I'd start. I would recommend testing loads at 300+ and see how they group. Also are the rifles currently bedded? How's the accuracy currently?

Thank you. For the 7mm, the 140 Accubond and 150 Accubond LR is the way I was leaning with a plan to also test the Barnes 145 LRX. For the Hornady, I've heard bad things about the SST, but the ELD looks pretty interesting. I can see adding that to the roster. The A-Bolt has a 26" barrel, so I'm not sure why it wouldn't stabilize the heavier bullets, but I've read that 140-160 is the right range for it.

It's not the barrel length on the A bolt. It's the twist rate that limits your bullet selection.

If it was me I'd load up some some 155 scenars for the .308 and be done. 45-47 grains of Varget is a proven accurate load. That bullet will do anything you want out to 600 with relatively mild recoil.

Thank you. The rifles are just standard factory rifles, but Browning and Ruger are both shooting sub-MOA at 100 yds with Nosler Partitions. I just don't like the variability I've seen with the soft tips of the NPs, so I don't plan to use them past 200 yds. The Howa is still in its factory recommended breakin plan so every shot is a fouler or a second shot. I'm about to start shooting 3-shot groups with it so I'll know more what to expect then.

I will definitely be see how all the bullets that I test group at 300+ ranges, but that might not be until warmer months and I will be attempting to use these for hunting when it is very cold. Will the results of testing during warmer months still be valid in cold weather? I can do some additional testing during early December but it will have to be at shorter ranges.

147 ELD in the 6.5, 180 ELD in the 7RM, 155 Scenar in the .308. Done.

I'm not even seeing Scenars mentioned in ballisticstudies.com's knowledgebase, so could you provide data on how they perform at various velicities?

Pat has done a few ballistics studies with the 155.....

I'm assuming you're talking about how they perform terminally? Do a thread title search "Deceased via Scenar" and you'll see pages and pages of animals taken at various distances including elk-sized animals. A 155 on a deer will not be a problem.

'Tis a GREAT injustice,that nobody will shoot you straight...so I will. Hint.

Firstly,the Browning is a steaming pile of fhuqking schit,from any/all angles. It simply does NO mechanical favors,if only because it can NOT. Spend $.99 and buy a "For SALE!" sign and cut to the fhuqking chase. Hint.

Secondly,the RAR 308 is heavily compromised mechanically,as well. The Milk Jug stock sucks heavy ass and the OEM magazines are straight dog schit to boot. No need to touch upon throat geometry and it's relation to same. Ooops! Hint.

Lastly,the Howa mechanically connects the most dots. It has the RPM,COAL and robustitude,to rate a thunk. Though every scope sighted,is a steaming pile of fhuqking schit and that pun be intended. Hint.

Anywhoo...boolits matter more than headstamps and the Howa Swede connects the most dots,by fhuqking light years. Hint.

You reap a 1-8" spout and while suffering a Long Action receiver in conjunction,have every move available in relation to it's throat. The 147 ELD is your Huckleberry there and it's .697 BC is no fluke. Hint.

Trip ALL of the glass and their mounting systems(feel free to extoll same,for even more oblivious humor),pitch the A-Bort and the RAR,then you've a chance to connect a few dots. Until then,given the "equipment" cited(no pun there),you are pissing up multiple ropes,with your mouth wide open.

But this schit is never NOT funny,because Clueless Dumbfhuqks never listen. Hint.

Just sayin'.

You've been led to water.

Thank me later.

No need to plagiarize my advice, nor wax eloquent.

I'm not interested in opinions about the rifles or even the scopes for that matter. The truth about them will be told on paper or in my freezer after the right bullets are selected and tested. The .264" 147 ELD is already on the list, but thank you for confirming it.

"There are no results for your query. Please try a broader range of search criteria."

And yes, I'm interested in lethality/terminal performance at various velocities so that I may compare it to other bullets.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5681850/12

The 180s are absolute killers out to 700 on elk, bear, mule deer.... IME.

facts ain't opinions.....

I feel strongly both ways....

Thank you. I'm concerned about lack of expansion as they pass through whitetail does. I've never had that problem with NPs, but I've never shot them further than 200 yds.

You're over-analyzing this. Hit a whitetail doe in the chest with any 30 caliber bullet and it's going down. And just hypothetically, if it didn't go down immediately what would the consequences be? It's not like this is the hunt of a lifetime that you had to save up for.

Which is just another way to say if you're shooting whitetail does at "long range" then accuracy is what you're looking for, you don't need a "controlled expansion" or a "premium" bullet. You need to be able to hit the vitals a long ways out there.

I have plenty of time and enjoy the shooting involved in testing various loads and bullets. That's one of the benefits of being retired. I've been on enough long tracks to know that I won't be capable of them as I get older. I'm going to favor lighter, flatter-shooting bullets with lower recoil, so I want to make sure they are going to perform well from 0-600 yds. Plus, a friend who hunts the same season with me and favors Barnes bullets will be "analyzing" any choice that I make that isn't Barnes, so the proof will hopefully show up in wound channels. At most, I will be testing four bullets per rifle/caliber. It may end being a waste of time, but is it really a waste of time when it gets me out of the house during cabin fever season?

Hmmmm....I could teach you a thing or two about the .308 Winchester!

No, it's not a waste of time at all. Sometimes you just have to see for yourself. All I'm trying to say is, think about what you need in a bullet for whitetails at 600 yards. In .30 caliber at 600 yards premium bullet performance, controlled expansion, and all of the other stuff that bullet manufacturers use to promote and sell bullets are not critical. Accuracy and at least a decent BC should be at the top of your list and scenars are some of the most accurate and easiest to get to shoot, especially the 155 grain .308.

And if your friend is telling you that you need a Barnes bullet to kill deer at 600 he's wrong on a couple of counts. First, their BCs are low compared to other bullets so they'll drift more in wind. Second, if you're worried about lack of expansion at low velocities the Barnes bullet should be one you're concerned about especially at .308 velocities and 600 yards. Third, the big advantage of copper bullets is penetration and that will not be a factor with .308 bullets on whitetails unless you use a bullet that's designed for varmints.

So I don't even need to consider the 180? I see two 30 cal 155 Scenars at midwayusa. One is called the Scenar-L. Which one is better?

And I hear what you are saying about accuracy. If I was shooting beyond 600 yds, it would be at the top of my list and I would be considering the heavier bullets to get their high BCs, but while I'm going to be shooting lighter-for-caliber bullets and comparing them to each other, terminal performance will be a factor in my decisions. I'm not ruling out the Barnes if I can shoot them accurately in my conditions, because I have seen the wound channels and the short tracks they produce. The plan for the .308 is to use it everywhere else, aside from the long distance blind, and have it set up for MPBR with a simple 30-30 reticle. So long range accuracy is not my biggest concern with it. Dragging does out of thick woods is hard work, so I will be more likely to be taking neck, spine, and shoulder breaking shots at closer ranges with it. But I still want the loads to be accurate at longer ranges in case I decide to change the scope and change how I use it.

But can you tolerate Michigan February weather?

I've had a lot of "luck" with the 75amax and 105amax on deer. I shoot a bunch of barnes bullets too but they aren't the be all end all of bullets.

Where are you located? I live in south-west Alcona county and do a lot of long range shooting. If you want to play with different rifles and/or glass I'd be happy to do some shooting with you. I'll bring a 308 w/155 scenars. And a 223AI w/75amax's, 22-250AI w/75amax's, 243AI w/105VLD's, 6.5cm w/147ELD's and you can shoot them all side by side. I'm guessing the 308 might not be your choice after shooting them all.

Alcona County? What are the odds? I live in BC. I'll take you up on that offer. My range (primary hunting property) is in Spruce and I will be moving there when my house sells and I get my new house built. I'm going there in about 15 minutes and shooting the A-bolt, Howa, and my wife's Savage Axis .243. I'll PM you later today.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of photos not showing up in this thread. ScenarShooter's are still there, but the pics hosted by PhotoBucket are blocked and some others are just bad links.

do the 'bucket fix that Rick sticky'd and you can see them

Photos or no photos, that's a big pile of dead animals killed by scenars. Scenar-Ls are relatively new and are supposed to be made to tighter tolerances and more accurate.

For a guy asking advice on something he’s never done.... you sure are picky about the information you’re receiving. There’s YEARS of experience and TENS of THOUSANDS of rounds down range talking here.... I’d suggest you listen with a little more holistic ear.

If you’re not interested in the rifles and optics ow.... you will be soon.... when you realize that your equipment is putting you behind the 8-ball to start.

600 isn’t a tough nut.... but it does require more than just bullets.

You’re overthinking this in some areas..... and WAY under thinking it in others. None of the optics you’ve listed are going to suit you well in your endeavor. The A-Bort 7mm will run into issues shooting high BC bullets due to twist rate and mag confines. The scope isn’t going to handle what’s required to get that rig consistently placing shots at 600.

Optics make a huge difference once you get out past 300-400.

Your best bet is still the .308 RAR. The 155 Scenar is a great bet.... but if you wanna go to a more “game bullet” you could go Accubond/NBT or something of that nature. Drop $300 on a SS 6x or 10x.... dab some bedding in the forend to stiffen up the stock, and get a couple hundred rounds down range.

You can skullphuck BCs, platforms, optics, cartridges, etc...... but a wise Oomp-a-laskan once said “spent Primers are the ultimate tutorial”.

I will get to spent primers when I've winnowed the field of bullets down to something more reasonable, in the meantime, I'm not interested in a Chevy vs. Ford vs. Ferrari vs. Volkswagen discussion of rifles. If anybody wants to engage in a my-bullet-is-better--than-yours brouhaha, I will be a happy spectator.

Thank you.

Thank you. That helps with quite a few, but the users have apparently deleted or moved quite a few still.

Chevy vs Ford....

In fairness, some of the bullets you're talking about in your rifles is akin to putting diesel in a Prius.....

Quit bitching.... pick a bullet... and start shooting. We all know your gonna stick with what you got in Rifles/glass... and ultimately fail due to constraints that have nothing to do with “picking a bullet”.

But hey.... I guess that’s why you ask questions.... so you can be reminded of how much you already know, and how stupid everyone else is.

If it turns out that my rifles/optics are inadequate, I'll either upgrade or reduce my range. I don't have a problem with that. But hunting is my hobby, not building rifles. In all likelihood, 400 yds will be my maximum range, but if I do what I can to shoot well out beyond that, I'll have more confidence when I shoot game at that.

No no no! You aren't doing it right! And your decisions, because they aren't the right ones, are only worthy of scorn! What are the right ones? Well, they're what we say they are! Never mind that Elmer Keith popped an animal at 600 with an open sighted revolver in 44, or that to 600 max, all problems are easily solved with shyte scopes, factory crap guns with the wrong twists, and bullets with half-way decent BC. The only mysteries left to be solved after whether your bullets are pointy is how well you can sight-allign, breathe, and squeeze. There's no tricks to 600 across flat-ish terrain. Plastic $300 rifles with $100 glass loaded with scrounged range brass will do it, and do it well enough to kill deer. Just pick pointy bullets.

Haven't killed much at 600 have ya??? Especially with any wind over 3mph. If you had you wouldn't have made those comments, I would enjoy seeing the consistent $100 600 yd scope.

This is some very good advise...Not trying to start a fight here, but when it comes to LR shooting/hunting, there are guys on this forum as well as guys that have replied to this very thread that shoot thousands of rounds each year and have forgotten more about LR hunting than most of us will every know. The advise being presented on rifles and optics is very sound - even though bullet selection seemed to interest you the most. You don't have like the people on this forum, but at the very least listen to those who know.

LR Hunting is far better suited to rifles that allow long seating of bullets, have proper twist, as well as repeatable optics that can return to zero everytime and dial the exact amount of travel your requesting. Ensure these variables are in order and bullet selection becomes a lot simpler.

When I finally begrudgingly came around to the advise being preached on here it absolutely changed my thinking, the equipment I buy, and what I expect out of that equipment. Gone are most if not all of my Zeiss, Leupold, Nikon, ect...and have been replaced with the likes of SWFA, Nightforce, and Weaver Tactical (LOW Japan made optic that dials and holds zero with the best of them) Optically are they any better than what I used to own? Probably not, but I know that without a doubt, if I need to dial 4 mils, it adjusts that exact amount, and goes back to zero - EVERYTIME. Trust me when I say it gets pretty easy to start blaming loads, bullets, powders, ect thinking something is not right when its been your scope not dialing correctly. I was quite surprised how much more accurate my rifle were with trusted glass.

My main LR Big Game rifle right now is a 280 Ackley with a 3.6" magazine with a 9 twist and a NF scope - not much you can't do long range with that. However, for those on a budget, as Dogshooter said, at least optically, not much a $300 6x or 10x swfa wont do for ya.

That Nikko Sterling Gameking with AO and illumination looks quite nice for long range shooting. I'd buy two more of those and put them on your other two rigs. Nice to start with good optics like that on all your rifles. And helpful to have the same reticle on all of them.

As a side note on bullets, and this is not scientific but if your scopes say gameking on them, it leads me to think you should be looking at Sierra gameking bullets as well. And if you get a tattoo on the side of your neck that says GAMEKING, then it kind of works for both items. I hope I convinced you and I did enjoy giving you some advice. Thank you.

Forgot about the barrel donut for bull barrels. Get 3 of these and maybe 1 more for a backup. Best $9.06 you will spend, trust me and again, hope I convinced you.

#GAMEKINGkiller

So here are the short lists so far:

6.5X55SM -- Barnes 120 gr TTSX, Barnes 127 gr LRX, Hornady 140 gr SST, Hornady 143 gr ELD-X, Lapua Scenar 139 gr HPBT

7mmRM -- Barnes 145 gr LRX, Hornady 139 gr SST, Hornady 162 gr ELD-X, Nosler 140 gr BTH, Nosler 150 gr Accubond LR

.308 Win -- Barnes 150 gr TTSX, Lapua Scenar 155 gr HPBT, Nosler 150 gr Accubond

You don’t need a short list.......

you need a short bus.

narrowed it down for ya

Barrel donut.

You don't listen for chit.

If I hadn't listened, the Scenars and Hornadys wouldn't even be on the lists. The heavier bullets that you recommended for the 7mmRM probably won't stabilize according to another guy who responded. If you have a problem with that, take it up with him and I'll read along.

They may/may not stabilize..... they will certainly be hindered by a short mag box.

Testing will narrow down the lists. I would like to have two satisfactory loads for each rifle.

Neither the 7mm nor the 6.5mm has a short mag box and I remind you that they are the ones that I called my distance guns. You may take on those who said I should stick with the RAR (which does have a short mag box) and I will read along.

When do you start winnowing down the list of bullets? With the barrel donut, you can tune the harmonics of about any barrel to shoot sub moa groups. And if the harmonics are tuned, it could result in a bit more speed. I haven't tested that last theory but worth discussing I think. Trying to find a Nikko Gameking at present for my distance gun.

I’m one of the guys who said stick with the RAR.... BECAUSE of the magazine length on the 7mm. The 155 is very tolerant of mag box confines... some of the longer, more VLD style bullets aren’t nearly as forgiving. They also get down into the boom-room when seated to shorter mag lengths... costing you velocity, even if you can muster the accuracy.

You don’t need “two good loads” for each gun.... hell, you don’t even need one good load for each gun. You need to pick one gun, one load, and shoot the crap out of it... it doesn’t even matter which gun or bullet. That’s really the only way to get where you wanna go.

Very true. When you're learning something new, eliminating all the noise from multiple loads and bullets is the path of least resistance.

resistance is what he's good at....

When do you take delivery of that Fieldcraft, I really want to shoot one.

You gonna scope it as Kurt recommends with the Gameking??

First you say, "The 162 Amax will always be the gold standard 7mm bullet"

Midway says that it is discontinued and ballisticstudies.com says this about it: On game weighing between 70 and 90kg at impact velocities above 2900fps, the A-Max tends to produce a normal caliber sized entry wound followed immediately by widely diffused wounding through vitals. The bullet then comes to rest in the offside muscle or bone. The A-Max often appears as though it has the potential to produce a complete failure (surface bullet blow up) but it never quite does. Kills are either fast or slightly delayed, game soon succumb to internal wounds. Personally, I cannot bring myself to trust a bullet that is incapable of penetrating through offside muscle and bone therefore I prefer to take neck shots on stout bodied game at close ranges when using the A-Max. For ordinary chest shooting at point blank ranges, the A-Max is best used on game weighing no more than 70kg (155lb).

So, okay, I might possibly be shooting a a big old doe that's heavier than 155 lbs at PBR, so no point in testing it. But then you say, "Doubt you’ll get any of the 175/180 to stabilize" which puts Starsky's recommendation in doubt and which he failed to address, but then you say, "may/may not stabilize", so I guess you're letting yourself or him off the hook. But that's fine, because I'm getting tight groups with first loadings of the 140 gr NBTH, which, unless it won't kill a doe reliably (which I doubt) is a strong contender for primary load. I am seating it out to -.002" from the lands and it's feeding fine through the magazine. Are you going to claim that it won't reliably kill a doe? I'm also seating the 139 gr HSST out to the lands and so far, the NBTH is outperforming, but it's early yet.

As I stated before, I'm not a one gun guy. I don't need to "pick one gun, one load, and shoot the crap out of it". This is a long term strategy and depending on available time, I may pick one gun per year and find my two good loads for it, but I most certainly don't need to pick one gun, one load, and shoot the crap out of it.

I took your recommendations "In the Howa, I’d look at the 143/147 ELDs from Hornady, the 139 Lapua Scenar, or the 130/140 Bergers," seriously enough to include two of those in the list even though you did not expound on the virtues of them. I did some research and thought "Why the heck not", so I don't understand why you now think that I should ignore your recommendations. Likewise, I've added the 155 Scenar to the .308 testing list based on multiple recommendations.

I'm not exactly inexperienced at load development. For the two of these rifles that aren't new, I developed and tested the NP loads and several other loads to the point where I'm consistently hitting an 8" gong at 300 yds. It's only ballistics, not rocket science. I think I can handle strain of comparing bullets to each other.

resistance is futile....

Hey...... Horse.... the water is right there.....

May or may not..... DEPENDING ON WHICH ON YOU PICK, and your ACTUAL TWIST RATE.

You really are a dense one....

You're right, you don't have to do that. Just like you don't have to pick a good long range bullet(s) or use a good long-range scope. Or shoot a lot in different conditions.

Are you going to claim that it (the 140 NBTH) won't reliably kill a doe?

You are free to expound on which bullets are best for which twist rates, barrel lengths, magazine lengths, powders, brass, primers, stocks, scopes, slings, soft and hard cases all you want.

Now that we have that settled, feel free to call out any red flags that you see on any of the bullets in the list.

I would... but it would be WAY over your head.... and you wouldn’t listen anyway...

Oh... it will certainly kill a doe with a good hit.

Making that good hit at 600 with you “rifle system” and musical-chair loads is another thing entirely.

Not my point. I think you have a good list of bullets. Their only flaw is, none of them have guidance systems to steer them into the target. FWIW, back when I started shooting long range a really experienced guy kind of took me under his wing. I rattled off a "short list" of rifles that I was considering and he suggested I pick one (the .308), mount a good LR scope with bullet-proof rings, buy a case of good match ammo. and shoot that up. Learn how to shoot in the wind, from different positions.

It was good advice then and it's good advice now. And yes, you are free to ignore it. Good luck.

Good. And thanks.

No, I haven't killed much at 600. But that's not the point. This isn't a pissing contest. I've shot lots at 600 and beyond. One of the scopes I use is Nikon Buckmaster 2 4-12x40, which is perfectly adequate for 600 yd shots. I know. Do you? Put away your dick. I also hunt in places where my long shots involve cross-canyon shooting, which is completely different than shooting across flatish ground when it comes to wind reading. Again, put away your dick. I don't want to see it and I don't care how far you, or your buddies, can piss.

I forgot to add bipods and shooting sticks to the list.

And all of this ire just because I had the audacity to select which of your recommendations I would accept. My, my, my.

Ire?

Hardly.

No one here is mad at you.... we’re actally all laughing at you.

We see 20 dudes like you a year..... asking questions.... then telling us all we don’t know schitt.

You should shoot Trystan a PM.... he was where you’re at a year or so ago.... now he’s killin’ it at 1000 yards plus.

HA!

Where have I told anyone that they don't know what they are talking about? On the contrary, I've assumed that you all know your business unless I discover otherwise. I've invited you to sell me on your bullet preference opinions. But as I said, the truth about my rigs will be revealed on paper or in my freezers after I put the right bullets through them. I'm content to let that play out. My interest in this thread is in eliminating bullets from the list of things I could blame for poor ballistic and terminal performance. There seems to be a trendiness factor in bullet selection. What's in favor one year doesn't stop performing well, but some other bullet like the ELD or the Edge TLR might suddenly be the new preference. And it's perfectly fine if you laugh at me, but insulting seems much more like the behavior of someone who is just pissed off because they aren't getting their way or being treated the way feel entitled to. It's a kind of control freak behavior that I just don't understand.

Matters not how many respond here, this post is the best one. At 600, the factory twist rate is well within the sweet spot.

I didn't read all 9 pages even though I posted a bit. I'd take the swede, mount up a 6x swfa scope with milquad reticle, buy some 140 vld berger bullets and some RL26.

Of the components you list in your shooting systems, your optics are the weak link and WILL limit you in attaining your goals. At the ranges you are discussing, the bullet will have minimal effect on getting hits. So, while there are lots of great long range hunting bullets out there, you will be wasting their potential without a decent scope and mounting system. None of the rifles you mentioned would be my first choice, but will work for what you are describing, providing your optics are up to the task.

If you are on a budget, consider flipping one of your current scopes and buy an SWFA Super Sniper 6x or 10x and a bulletproof mounting system. The scope is only $300 but it will track correctly and retain zero and return to zero reliably. Without those qualities, you are wasting your time. With those qualities, up to 400 yards with any decent hunting bullet, you will be pinging targets so routinely it will be boring. The mounting system need not break the bank either. Burris XTB bases with SWFA rings will be rock solid reliable and not terribly expensive.

Once you get to about 600 yards and past, bullets become more important. Provided your range to target is known, trajectory is easy. Wind, on the other hand is much less certain and you’ll want all the help you can get from a projectile. But, without optics that are up to the task, you’ll be wasting allot of those bullets.

https://swfa.com/swfa-ss-6x42-tactical-30mm-riflescope-105767.html

https://swfa.com/swfa-ss-10x42-tactical-30mm-riflescope-3.html

https://swfa.com/swfa-ss-tac-30mm---1-rings-97259.html

https://www.burrisoptics.com/mounting-systems/mounts-and-bases/xtreme-tactical-bases

John

Shoot what you got, out to 400, now. Don't waste time thinking, debating, or planning what to do next. And don't plan for a solid "maybe".

Once you've shot at 300 - 400 extensively, learned what works and what doesn't, come back with targeted questions. Right now, you're just wasting everyone's time. Get to shooting.

If you had read, you would know that I've been shooting out to 300 and that 400 will happen when I've had sufficient good weather and time to move my blind there (I prefer some shelter when temps are below 20). I've been hitting an 8" gong consistently at 300 with loads already developed, including predator loads that I would never consider shooting at deer (unless I was starving which I am a long way from).

Good. You're on your way. But you can get away with murder at 300, that won't fly at 400 and 500.

How about just forget the blind, and start shooting at 400 right now? Don't wait for the weather.

Because without the blind, I've got no stable rest and I would sometimes be getting snowed upon. I tried resting the gun on plastic barrels, but that's not stable enough. The obvious solution would be to set a table and chair in the bed of my pickup, but it's illegal to shoot from a vehicle or even a trailer connected to a vehicle here. It's illegal to even lean a loaded gun against a vehicle here. We have too much government.

I should be able to move it next month. Maybe sooner.

True that!

For many folks, first round hits on 8” plates at 300 in most conditions is about 7-9/10 maybe a touch better. Making first round hits on an 8” plate.... hell, even a 12” plate, at 600.... for most folks is a coin-flip at best.

I hear what you're saying. I prefer umbrella girls, when it's hot outside. Best to hunker down and wait until the weather gets better. Check back in with us in April, or May?

Umbrellas have a ping pong ball BC..... palm fronds is where ya wanna be. Hint.

Yep. And my iced tea in cup made from a coconut.

FOMIH should consult with Trystan. They'd probably get along well.

Brothers maybe........

Is somebody holding a gun to your head and requiring you to read?

I don't know about the rest of these guys but I keep checking in to see if Huntsman bought that Fieldcraft yet........

Nope. Just like watching train wrecks.

If you really wanted help, and were receptive to it, you'd be overwhelmed with support. Support from a bunch of dudes that could save you hours and dollars.

Instead, we've got you! And it's a blast!

The 308 and a case of ammo or more, or at least settle on a match type load and load up 1000 or so and put a good scope on and start shooting still rings the right steel here..

White man thinks its arrow. Indian knows its Indian....

Until you figure this out you are spinning your wheels.... I haven't changed my 308 load in years... 185 bergers... but I might switch it to 208 amax or 210 bergers when I run out of 185s... I KNOW that load and rifle really well...

Then i'm not worried in the least about how I'm "wasting your time". I've been quite receptive to help selecting bullets, which is what I asked for. Instead I find a lot of one gun, one load forever just shoot and don't think about it guys who never compare one bullet type to another and who've spent a lot of money on their one gun. Imagine my surprise.

Or...... there's a lot of guys who've shot a lot and have done what you're trying to do and base their replies on experience...

Idk.

Back to bullets. Barnes are an easy pass for me when Bergers and Scenars kill everything up to elk with authority. Even easier to pass on them when the topic is whitetails.

FatOldMIHunter,

You need to listen to Dogshitter, kuuuntman22, and Smokingweed because Doggshitter is a lying coward, kuuunt22 needs the sympathy because the neighbor was phuuking his wife, and Smoke, well his story changes more than his brown stained underwear 😀😀😀

It seems painfully obvious that the three clowns have zero idea as to how to show curtiousy or respect to an older gentlemen but rest easy sir knowing that many of us here on the fire do. 😁

Since you have reloader 26 on hand a great load that has been stable from below zero to 40 above in the 6.5 Swede is 49.5 grains RL26, 147 eld hornady, rem 9 1/2 primer in Lapua brass. In a tikka t3 that load showed no vertical stringing at 500 yds and groups under 2". The 147 works great on deer but I wouldn't recommend it for elk.

PS....I'm just another poor stupid phuucker trying to make my way through life like yourself. I really wish I was cool like the coward crowd but hey, we can't all be cool can we




Trystan

Others have said it. you are a damn fool. But its your call.

Get the one bullet one load and LEARN. Until you know something, you don't know anything. Don't complicate this and make it worse on you. You can take the highest BC, fastest round, most accurate load and I'll stomp your azz all day with a 223 way on out there.

LISTEN. LEARN.

Once you have learned, then you can play with all the other tinker toys, ledges, and Lincoln logs. Until then you are wasting time and money.

But if you want to waste money shooting custom bullets at 3400 fps out of a custom gun etc... thats your business I suppose.

Something like a 223 or 308 will really TEACH you.

Then when you move to something better, IF you still feel that need, it will seem like Childs play to an extent.

Barnes are one of the best hunting bullets ever made by the way. About all I'll shoot. But I don't shoot them at long range often.

Get you some of the good but cheaper amax, SMKs etc... and load a butt load while you have this issue with shooting in the cold.... then you will be set when it warms up.

You can thank us all later.

One gun/one load to learn WTF you’re doing... expand from there.

Maybe..... just maybe..... when you hear the same advice from several guys.... take a look back through some of their profiles and posts. Yeah.... you’ll have to sort through some smart-azz bullschitt.... but it’s pretty easy to see that guys like ‘pole, huntsman, 4th, Rost, Higgins.... can all make hits well past the ranges you’re talking about. Boxer shot you straight.... in his directly-roundabout way. Every single bullet on your list... has killed critters near and far, by the very people from which you sought advice on the subject.

Aside from some of the tongue in cheek comments, no one here has steered you wrong... no one.... go back and look. The advice is sound.... all be it unsolicited. Listening to some of these guys over the years has saved me countless hours of chasing my tail... and probably thousands of dollars in waisted components. Another nugget from the Oomp-a-laskan: Start at the f’n Start.

Since I feel like trying to help.... again.... I’ll re-answer the the original question, here’s what I’d do... if I were you:

7 Mag: 160 Accubond. Good enough BC, and will kill anything you’d ever wanna shoot it at. Your gun will handle them fine... and I know they work out of a 7 Mag at the ranges you’re talking.... both in the air and in fur. I’d look for 3000 fps. It’s leaving a little on the table ballistically, to be sure... but it’s easy to get to shoot, and it performs well on game at all ranges.

Howa 6.5x55: 147 ELD or 139 Scenar. I’m partial to the Scenar, they’re very easy to get to shoot, and they have a solid performance record in the field, and in LR rifle competition. I know they work at the ranges you’re talking about. I’d look for 2850-2900 with the 139... don’t have any experience with the 147.

RAR .308: Here’s a thought..... just hear me out on this. Instead of dropping a bunch of dough on misc. components for the other guns... simply drop $300 on a Fixed 6x SS and Mount it on said .308. Read the “SWFA Tutorial” post in the Optics Forum. Buy a box of Lapua brass, and a box of 500 155 Scenars.... that’s another $300. There’s dudes here that can point you in the right direction regarding a load for the 155s. Instead of “experimenting”..... load up all 100.... they’ll shoot good enough, I promise. Shoot them all in one afternoon.... 200 to 400. Yes, all of them. Load them back up, and do it again this time 300-500. Lather.... Rinse.... Repeat. Betcha once you can see the blue bottom of that box of 155s.... you’ll be pretty sold on that entire set-up.... and deer will have serious troubles.

What have you got to lose?

Seems more like a bunch of bruised egos from my foxhole. Barnes are only on the list because any comparison that didn't include them would be missing something that many hunters swear by. Chevy vs. Ford vs. ...

I've seen lots of guys like this. They ask questions, but already have the answers in mind before they receive the first response, and everybody that does respond is wasting their breath. Well I'll waste a little of my breath...

I responded to your question with a bullet suggestion for each of your rifles. I stand by that recommendation. But since the title of the thread is "Long Range Strategy", I'll second what Boxer wrote as a holistic strategy. If you're actually concerned with coming up with a LR hunting strategy, then you should sell the Browning. Put that money into a RAR or Tikka in .223, mount one of the scopes I mentioned early in the thread using a pic rail and Burris XTR Sig or the cheaper SWFA pic rings, buy (1000) 75 ELD's, and spend the spring and summer learning how to read the wind and compensate for it out to 600 or beyond if possible. Learn how to use a good LR-capable scope. Then buy a bunch of 147's for the 6.5. Pick an appropriate powder, quickly develop a load that shoots under MOA, and learn the behaviour of that load. After 1000 rounds of .223 down range out to 600 yards, and learning what your 6.5 does in the wind out to 600, deer anywhere within that range will be in serious trouble of finding the inside of your freezer.

What you're lacking right now, far more than bullets, is knowledge and LR shooting skill. And neither of those can be bought. Trigger time and spent primers is the way to become effective. Dogshooter is steering you straight.

BTW, I'm a Barnes fan for shots under 300 yards using chamberings with high MV. For shooting beyond that, I'm 100% in AM, VLD, or ELD mode. If the rifle I'm shooting starts an ELD at 2700 fps or under, the Barnes load gets skipped and the ELD gets used near and far.

Hahaha, I don't really give two slimy boogers for courtesy or respect due to age, but when I get a "There's only one right way to do things and it's my way" vibe, credibility goes right out the window. Thanks for the load advice. Most of the Alliant loads that I've seen for the Swede suggest RL 23, but I can try RL 26. I chose the 143 gr Hornady ELD-X for my test but I might reconsider. I've got the Lapua brass and the Rem 9-1/2M primer.

There's lots of ways to come up with a "Long Range Strategy", just like there's lots of ways to train for an Olympic event if you're an athlete. But if you ask an Olympic athlete what the best strategy is, you'll probably get a pretty short list of training strategies, based on a lot of trial and error and experience.

There's lots of ways to fumble around trying to hit stuff out to 600 yards, but there are a couple of ways to expedite the learning curve and the path to becoming effective at actually hitting what you're aiming at.

deflave, is that you? <grin>

Another example of someone wanting confirmation of what they "think" they know.

Don't forget that his partner is looking over his shoulder, so there is that.



Between the cold weather, hassle of moving blinds, and a pesky "friend", he's in a tough spot. It's a wonder he continues to post in this thread.

Wow.

I second Dogshooter: For the love of God, spend some money on a scope up to the task of 600 yards. Better yet, don’t shoot at anything over 300 yards. Better for you and a whitetail. 🙈

"Blah, blah, blah, decades of experience, blah, blah, blah, thousands of rounds downrange, blah, blah, some other logical fallacy, blah, blah, blah."

When exactly did you guys become like your own fathers?

I've got my list of bullets. I'll be focusing on the 7mmRM for now, developing a load at 100 yds using Erik Cortina's method. I'll be starting with the 140 gr Nosler BTH and RL26. Hopefully there will be a package at the post office tomorrow with a couple of the other bullets. I'll also be shooting two other rifles tomorrow, getting them one step further through their breakin rounds. I'd ask what bullets you would recommend for my wife's .243 Win, but since you all only have one gun and one load for it, I figure it wouldn't be a .243 Win.

Sounds like you got it dialed in!!! I am sure you’ll do awesome. Always best to trust your gut and what you already know to be true based on your own experiences than a bunch of “yahoos” on the Internet. Advice???? Thats for the birds if you already got an idea of what you are gonna do. Why even ask? You got this thing figured out.


So what have you already decided on for your wife’s 243?


And since you do have it figured out how do you plan to work your wind holds when shooting at 600 yards when it’s blowing 3, 7 12, 17 mph and it’s full or half value and such with the scope reticles you have. I have a Vx-3 leupold simple duplex I am trying to figure out where to hold in the duplex reticle depending on wind speed and direction.

It sounds like most of your enjoyment is trying to figure out loads for your three rifles. That’s where your passion seems to be. I think you’ve wrung out the best information possible from these boyz who’ve been trying to help regarding loads for each. Practically speaking, the rest is up to you on what you decide works...Corncern comes into play when your shooting skills may be your weak link.

Those who’ve said “just start shooting” are really saying, you have enough bullet information...Now shoot your [bleep] and produce consistent, accurate hits on your steel. I’ve read enough posts in my brief time here to know one thing. No one likes to hear about a “walk away animal from wounding”. Especially, when someone is shooting beyond their skill set due to ignorance or lack of practice.

Now, I’m not saying you be ignorant, but let’s start hearing about how well your doing shooting your LR rigs. Let the steel ringing begin, please.

And, get a stable shooting bench for practicing...Good Luck, I am sure your gonna be great

I wouldn't call these guys "yahoos". Some of them gave what I think will turn out to be good advice on bullets. They just really have bugs up their butts about telling them you're multitasking. The concept seems to be foreign to them.



My buddy gave me 6 boxes of Nosler Partitions. That should last my wife a long time. I'll be kicking that can down the road until I've got my own rigs set up.



I would probably pass on shooting in 17 mph winds. I have plenty of time for hunting, so no need to risk it. With anything lower than 15, I'll probably plug the numbers into Strelok Pro. But I only have 400 yds for hunting. The place where I will be shooting 600 is for the practice to boost the confidence for the 400.



Without at least a BDC or HHR reticle, you should probably just use that for MPBR.

Well, load development comes before shooting LR, but once I have a base load, I will be ringing steel with it while also developing loads for the other rifles. My mind is flexible enough to allow that. When I'm hitting the steel consistently coldbore at 400 with two rifles then I'll set up a backstop for the 600. But I'll also be tweaking my primary loads and seeing if I can find loads that my rifle likes better.



The steel has already been ringing at 300 yds and I fully intend to continue practicing. But now I will be practicing with something I might shoot a deer at 300-400 yds with.



Yeah, that's kind of an issue. It's pretty hard to work frozen snow-covered sloped wooded ground into something flat enough to make a four legged table stable on. If I had a three legged table with adjustable legs, that would be sweet. When I can start moving dirt, I'll be able to get the blind back where I need it and stabilize it.

See I knew you already had the bulletsfor your wife’s 243 already picked out.

How does a BDC reticle help me with wind holds? And once you get the results from this “strelok pro” thingy how do you apply that in how you hold how far off for wind?

Well, it gives you the answer in inches and MOA but it also paints you a picture. It uses a whitetail buck as a sample target, so you mentally have to adjust for that with a doe.

Genius..... if I understand it correctly.

I've tested Strelok Pro out to 200 yds and will continue to work with it. As long as you plug in a reasonable velocity, it seems dead on. One of the nice features is the backward calculation. You zero your scope at 100 yds. Measure bullet drop at a known long distance and backwards calculate the velocity.

A decent chronograph is your friend......

Strelok Pro has a reticle feature that will show you where the bullet will hit, vs the reticle, and whatever range/wind you desire.

Take a look at where that little red dot is, when holding for 588 yards in a 8-10 mph wind. Holding 4 and a half feet feet high and a foot and a half left.

MUCH easier and more consistent to dial your 9 MOA in elevation (better yet, 2.6 MILs) and use the dots on your reticle for your wind hold (.9 MIL). Now you’re bullet of choice, a 140 NBT at 3250 in this case,will hit right on the horizontal crosshair..... just barely inside the first Mil-Dot. So you now can use that Dot as your aiming point, and the bullet will arrive exactly where you’re holding.

No guessing..... no interpretive holds out in space, far more consistency.

But I digress..... you’ve got it all figured out already.

I should have mentioned that this validates your chrono reading.

Haha well this has been fun but I will let the troll continue to work and look forward to seeing the next thread started as it could be just as entertaining.

FOMIH, it’s been a great troll so far, just the “tested strelok pro out to 200 yards” was the give away. Glad to see strelok was able to help you overcome that 3.5” drop and drift at 200 yards in a 15 mph cross wind. Or you could still just aim like you would normally and still hit the deer not problem. But thanks for the laughs.

If you know that you are going to be shooting out past 300 (or even if you don't) you can zero your scope way out there wherever you want. Tell Strelok Pro where you have zeroed it, and it will recalc the numbers and adjust the ballistic table and the reticle picture. It works in reverse. No reason not to zero your scope at 300 or 400 and let it tell you how low to hold for a 100 yd shot. That makes longer distance pictures more reasonable. 600 yds is probably the furthest that I would consider using a BDC reticle, but I think it will be fun to practice with it. I will most likely never take a coldbore shot on game past 400, simply because my land's topography and natural deer movements make that unlikely.

Apparently methodical testing is not something that you enjoy.

Let us know how that works out.... laffin.

You are correct I would much rather use a scope that may or may not dial correctly with a reticle with zero ability to acurrately accommodate for precise wind holds. I prefer to focus on making a supposed 1/2 MOA rifle shoot 1/4 MOA with some “better” bullets so I can precisely miss the target and wonder why it didn’t go where I thought it was going. I mean who really cares if I can’t accurately account for a 3 moa wind hold with the reticle I am using the 1/4 moa accuracy difference matters much more, duplex or BDC reticles are the only way to fly. Thankfully it appears I am not alone in this endeavor. Man I must be bored but I gotta admit its kinda fun too haha. Keep up the good work your trolling is fun to watch, just mask it a bit better and you’ll reach Jedi status. Carry on.

Wasilla, AK. gave you away, right off. I know an old boy living there by way of New Mexico, might even be you. If you're the same fella I knew from a long time ago... You sure could shoot!!!....Probably still can. Nobody from the north region is as dumb as your post suggested. Cracked me up reading your posts though. If this is you A, I say, hello!....If, not, well, thanks for the laugh.

FatOldMIHunter in 3 months time....

And the troll has been trolled. Or is it- the student has become the master? LOL

Bahaha! Classic.

Try this great theory on a 3foot piece of cardboard at 500 yds with a 10 mph crosswind, and let me know if you still think its a good theory. Hint, you won't. I am relatively certain that you will miss the minute of deer that you are "trying to put in the freezer".

The stuff a guy reads on here..... wow

Dang, he sure nailed you there 'lanche. Did you ever get those Hatch green chilis to grow up there?

Hmmm not sure what he means....born and raised in Alaska here and def not a good shot so can’t be talking about the same person.

Thought you might have been an old friend I hunted with in New Mexico who moved to Wasilla and lost contact.

As I have repeatedly said, I won't be trying to hit deer at 500 yds. I would have to be able to see through a hill and lob a bullet over that hill in order to hit a deer at 500 yds because they don't go where I can shoot farther than 400 yds during the day. I know my land. So roll your 500 back to 400. Still think I won't be able to do it?

I think you can grow up to do whatever your heart desires. Aim for the stars.

It was pretty obvious.

With any wind over 10 mph YES. You will have more wounded deer than dead deer.

If you're only shooting deer to 400, your title is misleading. That's barely mid-range shooting, and all you need is a good scope (not the scopes you currently have), and pick a bullet with 0.5+ BC for your 6.5. The rest is you learning to hit at that distance.

What will hold you back more than your current bullets, is the scope you're using.

I think you got it figured out. Pick which ever rifle you hoped we would say, pick whatever scope you hoped we would say, pick whatever bullet you hoped we would say that all would reaffirm what you already knew all along. Roll with that Strelok pro ( I am not a pro so I have no idea what this strelok thing is but I am sure it’s awesome ) and guess best you can what the wind holds are to keep you on target and rock on.

If you are ever offering classes on how to shoot 600, or wait was it 400 now, be sure to offer a class so you can better explain why what your saying works so much better than what those with the blah blah blah (actual experience shooting at distance) have to offer, I don't have much of that blah blah blah experience so I prefer to do like you and rely on what I already know to be true. Speculation trumps experience everytime.

Thank you for confirming a prediction that I made in the OP, "That may only seem like medium range to some of you, but it's far enough to need a strategy to improve into."

We gave you that strategy, and you ignored it. Get a proper scope for hitting beyond PBR, choose one of a number of good bullets for the application, practice. Doesn't take much technical equipment nor knowledge to hit at 400.

No CHIT, my heads killing me!

That would be none of them. The truth about my rifles will be revealed in the testing. I had absolutely no interest in your opinions of my rifles. Apparently that made the more insecure among you perceive something that was just not true. I never said and I don't think that you don't know your stuff. I just am interested in the results of the testing, not your opinions.



What I just wrote about the rifles goes double for scopes. I am interested in testing the scopes.



I selected many of the bullets you recommended for testing along with the ones I had selected based on my criteria. I am interested in the testing.



Here is where your insecurites really start to roll. It matters not which bullets the ones you helped me select or the ones that were already on my lists, become my primary and secondary bullets, so long as they are the best that I test.



Thank you for the dramatic display of insecurity.

Anytime superstar.

I personally thought your strategy was top notch all along, which is why I never actually suggested any bullets for you to use like you seem to think I did, no need to mess with your perfect plan.

Bullsh**!! Or maybe you just get close enough so you dont have to be.....

Ahhh, just an FYI but you're barking up the wrong tree with the insecurity thing. I've never personally hunted with the 'lanche but I've seen the videos and I'm pretty sure that both he and his wife would kick my ass.

He doesn't talk about it much, that's how insecure he is.

I shot a 2" 4-shot group with my RAR .308 with a 5-20X50 Tasco World Class scope with a 30/30 duplex reticle and 168 gr Nosler Custom Competition HPBT bullets loaded in once-fired Lake City brass on a windy winter day last year. So I agree with you that it doesn't take much tech to hit at 400, assuming that we don't think the rifle, scope, bullet, primer, case, and powder are much tech. But doesn't it take a bit more to consistently and lethally hit on a windy day at 0-400 with a cold bore after sitting in the cold for a couple hours? Why does it have to be only one bullet, one rifle, one scope? Why can't it be the one of two or three rigs that I feel best about carrying that evening?

You also displayed the insecurity. Where did I ever say that anyone here didn't know what they were talking about? That was a feeling you had, not something that I said.

LOL, you got me pegged!!!

Seriously though, I'm just trying to give you a clue about one of the guys whose advice you're ignoring. Because obviously, you don't have one.

PS, don't listen to Jordan either, I hear he's never shot past 500.

Well, what do you know?

There actually is a troll under that bridge...

He can't be a troll, he's a professor of psychology.

Two things:

- A 2" group at 400 yards isn't all that impressive if it's not centered around your intended POI. A 2" group that's 20" off POA is worthless.

- Why does a race-car driver only drive one car?

True dat...

I'm pretty sure a race car driver would drive as many cars as his sponsors would pay him to. But your question doesn't answer my questions.

Why does it have to be only one bullet, one rifle, one scope?

Why can't it be the one of two or three rigs that I feel best about carrying that evening?

Apparently, I'm not yet allowed to add pictures to this site,



I agree, unless your intent was for the POI to be where it ended up and deliberately offset it by the correct 20". Agreed?

So where's the answer to the other question? "But doesn't it take a bit more to consistently and lethally hit on a windy day at 0-400 with a cold bore after sitting in the cold for a couple hours?" Why do so many of the one-gunner-shoot-and-don't-think-about-it types here avoid answering questions?

I've heard of it. They'll give anyone a student loan... and I guess it's a better degree than engineering for riddles...

Very nice. Would you like some cheese to go with your whine? I'd suggest an earthy gruyere.

Your question has two parts (aside from "windy conditions" which has already been answered) : Cold bore, and cold shooter. The cold bore part is easy. Don't clean your bore and don't put oil or solvents in it. The rifle should shoot to the same POI as a "warm bore" and if it doesn't, sell it and get another rifle. Of course, if you're working with three rifles and multiple loads for each, that will greatly simplify things and it'll be that much easier to sort out.

For the second part of your question, you're posting it in the wrong forum. Post it in the deer hunting forum under "how do you stay warm in a deer blind?"

One-gunner-shoot-and-don’t-think-about-it...... that there is funny.

I’ve got a half dozen rifles that don’t even make it to the safe..... I could grab any one of those rifles and whip your ass with it at 600...... but it didn’t start that way.....

I had a 7 Mag that I thought I shot pretty well out to 1/2 mile or so. It wasn’t until I built a .260, put a quality LR optic on it, and shot several thousand rounds through it, that I learned what I thought I already knew.

You obviously have no idea what you don’t know.... and are refusing to consider that lack of knowledge.

Never underestimate your ability to overestimate your ability.

Cold bores are easily offset with warm barrel donuts. FYI.

I have seen you mention the cold bore issue a couple of times. If you have that issue of poi difference with a cold bore, then rebarrel the rifle. There is no consistency if your first and last shot don't land in the same spot. I shot a few yesterday at 4 degrees. First and last hit in the same spot. No poi change. The cold may affect you, but should not affect your barrel.

Good, all of you can hit and kill any target on the first shot at any distance out to your max with any bullet that you've got a good load for in any gun that you hunt with. That's what I'm trying to achieve and that requires the right bullets and lots of testing. I've already heard that my rifles and scopes are capable of 400+ yds and now I've got a good list of bullets to load and test. I will be able to calculate ballistic tables and wind holds in the field with known MVs for the loads that I will shoot. I really think that we're done here, but somebody will undoubtedly disagree. The truth will reveal itself on paper and in my freezers, not with continued butthurt expressions of "You should listen to us because we do things the only right way and we deserve to be listened to."

Thanks for the bullet recs.

don't forget the warm donuts.....

Well, the gruyere won't stand up to all that. For that you'll need a hearty gorgonzola.

It’s like your talking about Gorgonzola..... when it’s clearly Brie time baby!

The answer doesn't get any simpler than this- it takes a scope that is consistent, a slickery bullet, and a bunch of practice.

LUCK

Brie??? Surely you jest, Philistine.

it's starting to smell like Limburger.....

Don't be a cheese-dick.

Seven minute abs? How about six minute abs....

Something about that movie...

Step into my office.....

Seven hungry chipmunks twirling on a branch...

Eating lots of sunflowers on my Uncle’s Ranch...

Give it up Dave and FOAD for wasting our time azzhole.

A few different people have said that they think the OP is not who he says he is. Personally, it makes no difference to me, I'll just treat him straight up and take him at his word.

Because I can't fathom ever getting to a point where I'd be so hard up for entertainment as to pretend to be someone else for the purpose of jacking people off on the internet.

The internet is the new Roman Bathhouse..... kinda like rest stops.... Ted.

I do it because being an architect is my day job.... but my real passion is working with Retards.

Forget FOMIH. Maybe I'm slow on the uptake but this thread proves to me that an up and coming longranger would get plenty of solid advice from knowledgeable and helpful shooters in the community, assuming that they were receptive to it and checked their ego at the door. Several would probably take the beginner under their wing, so to speak. I know that sometimes we don't see everything the same and have our disagreements, but it seems that the consensus is that many are willing to help out a beginner.

Good job dudes.

Jason

So much butthurt.

No..... we have not seen your baseball.

You can't fault him for reverting to a subject where's he's clearly an expert.

I’m still trying to figure out how he got the beans above the frank....

I hear he slathers on the hair gel.

I hope the coward crowd will survive because I'm seeing some incessant whining that appears a few are emotionally butthurt........lol

Its all over but the crying.....lol



Clark

Dippity Do?

Great.....tag team butt hurt now.......

Excellent, another expert. "Kindred spirits" no doubt.

And speaking of "butthurt," did you make it all the way home with your ball?

Best thread EVAH!

Sure wish I had spare time to play the part of an azzhole and waste everyones time... must be heavy snow somewhere

😎

Oh for crying out loud!!!!!

Lots of crying out loud.....lol 😀


Dave

Are you piggy-backing or just plain old giving a reach-around?