Would depend upon what rifle I have in my hand at the moment, but...………………. I pretty much agree with you. I'd personally back it in 100 yards to 500. Here's why...……….. We used to have a get together of a bunch of buddies, all with sporter rifles. We'd shoot paper at 100 and 200 and steel at 300 and 600. The 600 yard steel was an 8" gong. There were guys/rifles there that would be on the steel every shot, all day long at 600. There were other rifles (NOBODY was using target knobs and dialing...……...all Kentucky) that just could not, WOULD not get on the steel out there. I think, with knobs and a dope chart, it's a whole different ballgame. But to just throw the rifle over a rock, log or backpack and shoot at a critter that's about to leave, 500 is probably the outer limit for most rifle/shooter combos.
"500 is probably the outer limit for most rifle/shooter combos"
I'm pretty comfortable on antelope at 400, elk at 500. 600 on elk would have to be perfect conditions, even though I've hit about 40$ on clay pigeons at 600 with various rifles.
Daughter #1 passed on an elk at 476 last fall because she wasn't comfortable, even though she practices out to 600. Good for her. We got to her comfort rage of 400 and the elk were in the trees by then. Oh, well.
Later that day she too 3 shots at a mulie buck at 116 yards. (Dumb-asss buck.) Then another at around 200-300 (I forget the yardage). Something had gone wrong with her rifle. She then used her hubby's .300WSM, which she had never fired before, to nail the second (another dumb-ass) buck.
I don't consider myself a long range hunter. I practice to 600 yards with my hunting rifles. 400 would be my current limit under most field conditions. With a good rest and modest wind, I could stretch that to 500.
In my mind, long range hunting starts somewhere between 500 and 600 yards. I enjoy long range shooting. I don't ever see getting into long range hunting.
I don't consider myself a long range hunter. I practice to 600 yards with my hunting rifles. 400 would be my current limit under most field conditions. With a good rest and modest wind, I could stretch that to 500.
In my mind, long range hunting starts somewhere between 500 and 600 yards. I enjoy long range shooting. I don't ever see getting into long range hunting.
You and I are in the same boat. Farthest critter I've ever shot was a groundhog at 488 of my steps...……….which are longer than a yard. Did it when only the military knew what a rangefinder was. Guessing 510-515 actual yards. So, shooting a big game animal, to me, would not be that hard for me today...……….with a LRF and a better rifle/scope combo. I just don't shoot many critters at all anymore except turkeys with a shotgun and whitetails with a bow, so...…………. But, I thoroughly enjoy shooting paper and steel. We can do 600 right now at the farm. Hoping to move about 2 treetops this summer and 700 is a done deal. Next stop is at a neighbors place to secure permission to place a target on his property, and 1000+ is right there. Want to have a rifle put together for just that sorta shooting. The donor is in the safe. But shooting at a big game animal past 500 or 600 wouldn't get me off in the least.
Long for me is 300 yards. I say that because I have only ever shot one elk at 400 yards and 4 or so deer at over 300 yards. Everything else is usually under 200 yards with a lot under 100 yards. We shoot most of our game with a 20 Gauge shotgun and sabot slugs.
During hunting season here the wind is usually howling. So if you see something you could usually just keep your head down and sprint to within 300 yards before even beginning a stalk.
My oldest daughter and I found some whitetails last year that we put a stalk on and she took a doe at about 8 yards with a 25-06. We first spotted them at around 400 yards distant.
I am confident shooting to about 500 yards but have never needed to ever fire a shot that far at game. The local range has a 566 yard steel gong that is not much of a task to hit with my 308 or 6.5 Grendel if it is not blowing hard. My 25-06 or 300 RUM would probably be cheating.
Stinky, Looking back 19 years ago, you seemed to be able to carry on a somewhat civil conversation with just a hint of intelligence. What the hell happened? You now have the vocabulary of a five year old retard. We know you have some knowledge of firearms but absolutely no ability whatsoever to convey this knowledge. Spreading all this hate and discontent has done nothing for anybody especially you. No big deal for me, I going to dinner and read a book.
When it comes to game shots, long range is the distance I can hold steady enough with my crosshairs to feel I can make a good, clean shot. Some days that is 700 yards if I have a good enough rest, time, and conditions are right. Other days that may be 300 yards if I can't find a good enough rest, or the wind is howling, or conditions just aren't right.
I should go roll some tape and comment upon MPAJ Hasty Rucktitude,at distances beyond a given platform's zero.
MOST folks don't have the glass,that'll allow dot connection and they are quick to overlook that constant. that ain't a function of magnification,nor optical splendor...but SOLELY of mechanics.
Stick, I know you don't have time to shoot all those rifles so if you want to thin the herd of one of those useless Anschutz rifles one of these days you let me know. You know how much I like blued steel and wood....
Beyond 400yds is a good metric in the hunting world.
Right about there is where, even a lot of the flat shooting rifles, have dropped or are dropping below MPBR.
Yep
Sweetie,
Trajectory is Physics,wind is Voodoo and the ONLY thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination. Congratulations?!?
Bless your heart for sucking ass though.
Hint.
Laughing!.............
I took a bit of physics, way back when. I was dimly aware that it may have somewhat of an effect on trajectory. But thanks for gettin' my back on that. You're a peach.
Problem is...…………..the hot wind that blows outta the arsehole of Paradise, Alaska is Voodoo on the trajectory of any discussion it encounters. Darned shame...……….
Beyond 400yds is a good metric in the hunting world.
Right about there is where, even a lot of the flat shooting rifles, have dropped or are dropping below MPBR.
Yep
Sweetie,
Trajectory is Physics,wind is Voodoo and the ONLY thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination. Congratulations?!?
Bless your heart for sucking ass though.
Hint.
Laughing!.............
I took a bit of physics, way back when. I was dimly aware that it may have somewhat of an effect on trajectory. But thanks for gettin' my back on that. You're a peach.
Problem is...…………..the hot wind that blows outta the arsehole of Paradise, Alaska is Voodoo on the trajectory of any discussion it encounters. Darned shame...……….
TROUBLE is...you are devoid the means,to accrue the wares,in order to amass the talent to savvy. Hint. Congratulations?!?
But "luckily" for you,Imagination and Pretend are free,so you can "afford" to "contribute" in the first hand...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint.
Well I have always been a deep woods hunter, 50 yards is a long shot. However you would have about three seconds to take the shot. Recently hunted with the SIL on a gas line clear cut. 300yards shoots presented themselves. Will have to learn a whole new game.
Ain't it a hoot,that despite ALL of your Subsidies...you still cain't "afford" a good 22LR. Hint. Congratulations?!?
Bless your heart for trying though!
Hint.
Laughing!................
That has nothing to do with making a fool of yourself trying to hit an egg at 300 yards and on video. You're the one who's bragging about how great you are and blah blah blah.
Like I said in another thread,you know just enough about firearms to get yourself into trouble. And right here you proved it.
Beyond 400yds is a good metric in the hunting world.
Right about there is where, even a lot of the flat shooting rifles, have dropped or are dropping below MPBR.
Yep
Sweetie,
Trajectory is Physics,wind is Voodoo and the ONLY thing you "shoot" is your mouth and Imagination. Congratulations?!?
Bless your heart for sucking ass though.
Hint.
Laughing!.............
I took a bit of physics, way back when. I was dimly aware that it may have somewhat of an effect on trajectory. But thanks for gettin' my back on that. You're a peach.
Problem is...…………..the hot wind that blows outta the arsehole of Paradise, Alaska is Voodoo on the trajectory of any discussion it encounters. Darned shame...……….
TROUBLE is...you are devoid the means,to accrue the wares,in order to amass the talent to savvy. Hint. Congratulations?!?
But "luckily" for you,Imagination and Pretend are free,so you can "afford" to "contribute" in the first hand...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint.
Bless your heart.
Laughing!..............
Haha !!! Pigz Dik Post Variation #3...…………………...the "you can't afford it" post ..................again...………………. Been 2 whole hours since you used THAT gem.
Maybe someday when I recover from my current bout with food stamp poisoning and can collect enough roadside beer cans, I'll have bank enough to roll with YOU, bro !!!!
22LR at distance with a wind that is variable... How many boxes of ammo. I shot competitively with a 22LR, and anyone says they can hit successfully ever time is talking BS. Does not matter the rifle or ammo.
Yoder409,if you and I pool our money together we might be able to afford the stuff bs has.
Think about it.
Can't buy in with you, just yet, bro...…………….. My food stamp poisoning treatments are pretty spendy and somebody beat me to the best beer can pickin' stretch of the highway this weekend. I'm a little low on cash this week.
I DID have just enough, though, to grab up a brick of Thunderbolts on Rollback at Wally World, yesterday !!! When you and me can finally save up to buy us a good used Marlin 60, we'll have lotsa fodder. I'll see if I can float a loan off my Mom for 3 or 4 of the gayest colors of Krylon I can find,,,,,,,,,,for pimpin' the 60 !!
22LR at distance with a wind that is variable... How many boxes of ammo. I shot competitively with a 22LR, and anyone says they can hit successfully ever time is talking BS. Does not matter the rifle or ammo.
You never cited the "distance",nor the wind "value",let alone the "wares".
Yoder409,if you and I pool our money together we might be able to afford the stuff bs has.
Think about it.
Can't buy in with you, just yet, bro...…………….. My food stamp poisoning treatments are pretty spendy and somebody beat me to the best beer can pickin' stretch of the highway this weekend. I'm a little low on cash this week.
I DID have just enough, though, to grab up a brick of Thunderbolts on Rollback at Wally World, yesterday !!! When you and me can finally save up to buy us a good used Marlin 60, we'll have lotsa fodder. I'll see if I can float a loan off my Mom for 3 or 4 of the gayest colors of Krylon I can find,,,,,,,,,,for pimpin' the 60 !!
Rich bastard!
I'll go ask my cousin/wife if she can go without birth control next month to help you with your food poisoning treatments.
Why am I posting to this? Can you do it again at 300 yards? Big Stick I did answer your question. Any 22LR of you choice with any ammo, beyond 50 yards. You seem to be repeating your self.... HINT
Why am I posting to this? Can you do it again at 300 yards? Big Stick I did answer your question. Any 22LR of you choice with any ammo, beyond 50 yards. You seem to be repeating your self.... HINT
You "cited" your STUPIDITY. Hint. Congratulations?!?
Simply pick a distance,pick a target and set upon your well worn couch...as dots are EASILY connected.
Why am I posting to this? Can you do it again at 300 yards? Big Stick I did answer your question. Any 22LR of you choice with any ammo, beyond 50 yards. You seem to be repeating your self.... HINT
You "cited" your STUPIDITY. Hint. Congratulations?!?
Simply pick a distance,pick a target and set upon your well worn couch...as dots are EASILY connected.
Bless your heart.
Hint.
Laughing!.............
That means "NO" in Joe Bidden gibberish i.e. Big Stick.
Beyond 400yds is a good metric in the hunting world.
Right about there is where, even a lot of the flat shooting rifles, have dropped or are dropping below MPBR.
Yep
Very few will get to 350 with a 6" target size. More with 8" or greater. A 6.5mm 142g bullet with a B.C. of .625 and 3050fps at the muzzle has a 313 yard MPBR at 7000 feet altitude for a 6" target, 352 yards for an 8" target. A 10" target only gets to 386 yards MPBR, but now you're talking about +5" above line of sight. I prefer 3" max, hence my preference for 6" target sizes for MPBR zeros.
Beyond 400yds is a good metric in the hunting world.
Right about there is where, even a lot of the flat shooting rifles, have dropped or are dropping below MPBR.
Yep
Very few will get to 350 with a 6" target size. More with 8" or greater. A 6.5mm 142g bullet with a B.C. of .625 and 3050fps at the muzzle has a 313 yard MPBR at 7000 feet altitude for a 6" target, 352 yards for an 8" target. A 10" target only gets to 386 yards MPBR, but now you're talking about +5" above line of sight. I prefer 3" max, hence my preference for 6" target sizes for MPBR zeros.
John Squirms cain't even say "matrix" and you are dumber than her. Hint. Congratulations?!?
It ain't very "difficult",to look through a scope.
Beyond 400yds is a good metric in the hunting world.
Right about there is where, even a lot of the flat shooting rifles, have dropped or are dropping below MPBR.
Yep
Very few will get to 350 with a 6" target size. More with 8" or greater. A 6.5mm 142g bullet with a B.C. of .625 and 3050fps at the muzzle has a 313 yard MPBR at 7000 feet altitude for a 6" target, 352 yards for an 8" target. A 10" target only gets to 386 yards MPBR, but now you're talking about +5" above line of sight. I prefer 3" max, hence my preference for 6" target sizes for MPBR zeros.
I can see your logic on the 6" target for hunting applications. That 6" target really peels back the MPBR on things !! Not your optimal long range projectile...…..but the 485 B.C. 7mm bullet that gets me to 442 yards (at your house at 7000 feet) on a 10" only makes 360 yards on a 6" target. Still fairly respectable in the point-and-shoot aspect.
For me, I don't want to shoot any farther than what I can practice and the shooting range I belong to is 200 yards max. However, if the wind isn't bad I know the holdover for 300 and 400. But that's about it until I find a place to practice that has a longer range potential.
Things that should never be allowed in Long Range Hunting threads.
NOTHING teaches wind reading,like gunning a Rimfire beyond it's zero range.
Hint..............
That’s like saying rubbing one out to a Katy Perry poster “teaches” you how to lay the pipe to a beautiful woman.... nothing wrong with a little .22lr masterbation.... just don’t try to convince everyone that it helps you actually get laid.
That’s like saying rubbing one out to a Katy Perry poster “teaches” you how to lay the pipe to a beautiful woman.... nothing wrong with a little .22lr masterbation.... just don’t try to convince everyone that it helps you actually get laid.
EPIC !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Has to be a 2019 nominee for 24HC quote of the year !!
Things that should never be allowed in Long Range Hunting threads.
NOTHING teaches wind reading,like gunning a Rimfire beyond it's zero range.
Hint..............
That’s like saying rubbing one out to a Katy Perry poster “teaches” you how to lay the pipe to a beautiful woman.... nothing wrong with a little .22lr masterbation.... just don’t try to convince everyone that it helps you actually get laid.
There's much to be said for watching projectile flight,enroute to the target,as atmospheric feedback. Alas...not everyone can afford a High Zoot Rimfire,as you eloquently attest. Congratulations?!?
Nawwwwwww. I got some super-secret beer can pickin' stretches of road I'm gonna hit early next weekend. Should be able to get me LOTSA extra cash from all them fresh puppies.
Things that should never be allowed in Long Range Hunting threads.
NOTHING teaches wind reading,like gunning a Rimfire beyond it's zero range.
Hint..............
That’s like saying rubbing one out to a Katy Perry poster “teaches” you how to lay the pipe to a beautiful woman.... nothing wrong with a little .22lr masterbation.... just don’t try to convince everyone that it helps you actually get laid.
What were the "odds" that besides being a CLUELESS Fhuqk,you are also a Lying Piece Of Fhuqking Schit...as you yet again "forgot" about your Imaginary Pretend Ignore. Hint. Congratulations?!?
Guess this pizzing chiit is going to continue on every thread ?, just great.
Elkchunt ain't gonna get an IQ Transfusion,nor win The Lottery...so I reckon she'll keep shooting her mouth and Imagination,while "flaunting" her Pretend.
Elkchunt ain't gonna get an IQ Transfusion,nor win The Lottery...so I reckon she'll keep shooting her mouth and Imagination,while "flaunting" her Pretend.
Mainly,because it is her one and only "move"...besides Plagiarism.
"500 yards with a 22LR,ain't that far" your words bs. A 300 yard shot on a egg will be a chip shot for someone of your vast experience. Just make sure it's on video.
Elkchunt ain't gonna get an IQ Transfusion,nor win The Lottery...so I reckon she'll keep shooting her mouth and Imagination,while "flaunting" her Pretend.
Mainly,because it is her one and only "move"...besides Plagiarism.
It's about 1,200 yards from where it sits in the picture to the bottom of the gully on the other side of the highway. That's about 50 yards further than I ever shot before, but it's downhill if that helps. I wasn't using sights for my long shot, dunno about the drops 'n stuff like that. Fella doesn't need that equipment with a minigun. Sorta like cheatin' maybe.
Elkchunt ain't gonna get an IQ Transfusion,nor win The Lottery...so I reckon she'll keep shooting her mouth and Imagination,while "flaunting" her Pretend.
Mainly,because it is her one and only "move"...besides Plagiarism.
Elkchunt ain't gonna get an IQ Transfusion,nor win The Lottery...so I reckon she'll keep shooting her mouth and Imagination,while "flaunting" her Pretend.
Mainly,because it is her one and only "move"...besides Plagiarism.
I can't get much past the 2200yd line,from the bedroom window...................
But you can't shoot an egg with a 22LR at 300 yards and video it from your bedroom window.
Although the young lady did it offhand.
I haven't seen it mentioned that the young lady missed the first 10 shots at the egg before she finally hit it.... it's in the forward of the video I saw and the explanation I read later....
I can't get much past the 2200yd line,from the bedroom window...................
But you can't shoot an egg with a 22LR at 300 yards and video it from your bedroom window.
Although the young lady did it offhand.
I haven't seen it mentioned that the young lady missed the first 10 shots at the egg before she finally hit it.... it's in the forward of the video I saw and the explanation I read later....
Bob
Yup,she still hit it. stick can do it also,there are no round restrictions against him.
Elkchunt ain't gonna get an IQ Transfusion,nor win The Lottery...so I reckon she'll keep shooting her mouth and Imagination,while "flaunting" her Pretend.
Mainly,because it is her one and only "move"...besides Plagiarism.
I can see your logic on the 6" target for hunting applications. That 6" target really peels back the MPBR on things !! Not your optimal long range projectile...…..but the 485 B.C. 7mm bullet that gets me to 442 yards (at your house at 7000 feet) on a 10" only makes 360 yards on a 6" target. Still fairly respectable in the point-and-shoot aspect.
Agreed. The vast majority of big game I've taken has been 300 or under. Only ones longer have been elk (487, 411, 400, 350). The range for the elk at 400 and 350 were measured using Google Earth, so may be off a tad either direction.
No one in my hunting group has taken anything past 300, so the 6" diameter MPBR works well for us.
7000ft isn[t my house, it is the average altitude at which we hunt.
Don't forget that you reserve the right,to follow me around and extolling your Incredibly loonnnggggggg list of very WELL founded Insecurities. Hint. Congratulations?!?
Just a thought, but an individual's definition is fairly irrelevant most days. One man's cuppa tea may not mean a whole lot, all things considered. Only a suggestion, knowing it will not change the course of this epic thread, how about defining things a bit. Benched, in the field, offhand, over the shoulder with a mirror......it makes a difference.
50' ain't much of a stretch, but I gotta ask, do you think you could stand on your hind legs and do this well? The top is a sighter, the rest are 2 shots/target.
Can ya stand on your hind legs and do this at 100 yards?
With an elbow rest for 5 at 100?
I really don't give a flip actually, but the question posed that started this is vague and whether intended or not doesn't lead anywhere. While I appreciate the skill set required to make first round hits at very long range in the field, presumably from a rest of some style, it's kinda of an apples/oranges thing if you get my drift.
Benches make for some pretty groups from time to time but I don't carry a bench around for hunting.
In the field things are a bit different. Long range for you may or may not be so for me, depending on circumstances, firearm, quarry etc. If you screw up is your "target" going to rip you a new anus?
Just a thought, but an individual's definition is fairly irrelevant most days. One man's cuppa tea may not mean a whole lot, all things considered. Only a suggestion, knowing it will not change the course of this epic thread, how about defining things a bit. Benched, in the field, offhand, over the shoulder with a mirror......it makes a difference.
50' ain't much of a stretch, but I gotta ask, do you think you could stand on your hind legs and do this well? The top is a sighter, the rest are 2 shots/target.
Can ya stand on your hind legs and do this at 100 yards?
With an elbow rest for 5 at 100?
I really don't give a flip actually, but the question posed that started this is vague and whether intended or not doesn't lead anywhere. While I appreciate the skill set required to make first round hits at very long range in the field, presumably from a rest of some style, it's kinda of an apples/oranges thing if you get my drift.
Benches make for some pretty groups from time to time but I don't carry a bench around for hunting.
In the field things are a bit different. Long range for you may or may not be so for me, depending on circumstances, firearm, quarry etc. If you screw up is your "target" going to rip you a new anus?
Too bad some here have nothing better to do than sidetrack threads and lots of time to do it in. I've been on the road for 4 weeks straight, saw my wife for 15 minutes a couple weeks ago, when I was in Denver to change planes. Last two weeks in Mexico. Would rather be home and get some shooting in. Have another new grandkid coming in a few days and hope to be home for that. In the meantime I was hoping this would be a decent thread. Started out OK but quickly went sideways - as have so many others.
I've had Stick on "Ignore" for years and only see what others quote. Threads would not go sideways nearly so fast if everyone would just quit responding to him. I know, pissing in the wind...
I remember shooting an elk many years ago with a 300 WinMag at 450 yards and thinking that was a fabulous shot at that distance.
Today I have sons that are shooting antelope and deer at 800 yards and 1100 yards. Tricked out rifles, range finders, improved/designed calibers for long distance, and fabulous scopes and ballistic programs coupled with chronographs for actual performance have changed the scenery big time.
I have some of the above tools but not all and after practicing and practicing I'm thinking that I could be dangerous in the 700-800 yard range. Not lethal .....just dangerous.
Best thing I ever did was put Stick on ignore... He is the only member I have done this to, and he will probably be the last... The fire is a joy, without his drivel...
i enjoy Big Stick`s post ,he has a way of making people look like a Butthead ! Stick does know alot about reloading ammo,many on 24 hr. campfire are keyboard shooters mostly.
You are the only one I've seen posting pantless pics. That's fuggin' gay!
Trybone,
I'm VERY "surprised" that you follow me around like a Puppy and greedily read my every word and gawk my every Splendid Pixel,as you "live" vicariously...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?..............
Your Surging Estrogen Levels and Man Lust Fantasies,are the only things that you can talk about in the first hand...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?
I getta kick outta the reality of your Melting Snowflake Perpetual victim "Trump Card". Hint.
Bless your heart,for doing your best,with what incredibly little you "have" to "work" with.
Maybe for out west, 300 might be doable for most folks, but here in the east, 99% of "hunters" can't probably hit anything past a 100 yds,. Shots here run under a 100 most of the time, and unless in a state with power lines to watch, not going to get shots much past that. I did shoot stuff in Africa out to 300 yds, but not here in the US. I'd also venture to say, MOST hunters would have no idea how to adjust their scope to "come up" etc for a longer range. I don't really feel it's ethical to shoot 400 yds at something like an Elk/deer, unless using a rifle/cartridge combo up to that range. One of the ammo companies did studies that show that the 06, for instance, drops below 1900fps at 500 yds, so not really going to make the bullets expand right.
Maybe for out west, 300 might be doable for most folks, but here in the east, 99% of "hunters" can't probably hit anything past a 100 yds,. Shots here run under a 100 most of the time, and unless in a state with power lines to watch, not going to get shots much past that. I did shoot stuff in Africa out to 300 yds, but not here in the US. I'd also venture to say, MOST hunters would have no idea how to adjust their scope to "come up" etc for a longer range. I don't really feel it's ethical to shoot 400 yds at something like an Elk/deer, unless using a rifle/cartridge combo up to that range. One of the ammo companies did studies that show that the 06, for instance, drops below 1900fps at 500 yds, so not really going to make the bullets expand right.
Seriously ??? 400 yards is too far to shoot at big game animals.......i.e. big targets ???
I'm from the East, too. 250+ on groundhogs is rimfire work. Headshots to 450 are for the centerfires.
If 400 is too far to rib-shoot a deer, something's wrong ..........
Longest scattergun shot for me was back in the middle of the last century, a buzzard plinked out of a tree at about 125 yds with a Forster slug/12 ga. Dad was impressed. Front beads are skookum. I din't know it was hard to do that.
Plinked a couple dinks in a .50 pit right around 1,000 meters one day. Fella doesn't need much in the way of sights for a minigun, though some experience helps. We didn't install the sights in the OH6 due to lack of room.
1,000 yards. My sight-less rifle shoots MOA, if I do my part and fling the right pills. It's just how I roll.
Same here, smokepole. What's wrong with these folks using sights anyway?
Mine was a flint lock, how about you?
A K14 Klienguenther 7 Rem Mag waiting for bases and rings. I figured I might as well shoot it since I had it. I was pleasantly surprised at how accurate I could be with instinct shooting.
Years ago a cousin wanted to learn about handgun shooting. Showed up at the range with a GP100. Did fair on the 10 yard line, little bit of a wuss with the noise and recoil, so after a bit I interrupted after reloading and said "Get your sight picture, make a note about how it feels, close your eyes and shoot. I could cover 6 holes with my palm.
Dat's a lot of barrels and scopes. Use a smaller hammer?
The first three barrels were hotrod 7mms. The last one is a .375-.416 Rem Mag and is still as accurate as it was thirty-five years ago. The first scope was a Burris and lasted through the three 7mm barrels. Within ten shots with the 300 grainers it was rattling like a baby rattle. I installed a Bushnell that worked until a friend fell with it a literally broke the scope. I installed a Tasco which lasted until a friend got hit by it. I replaced it with another Bushnell. Then recently I decided to put a larger scope on it: Bushnell 6500 4 1/2-30X50. I can read the print on a target 100 yards away!
Yoder , then you're one of the 1%, right? 250 yds with a RF, is BS to me. And 450 headshots> more BS. I have a friend who won't even shoot a groundhogs "the close" , but he shoots out in Ohio and other places where wide open, and is setting at a table, shooting a Cheytac round. But we're talking about the PA mountains, and such place,were most of the time you don't have a 400 yd open shot, period. Where I've hunted most of my deer, a 50 yd shot long. I've shot competitive LR and so can hit a deer of something at a longer range, if needed to. But those ranges not available here. The other thing is a deer quickly becomes a mouse size target at 450 yds. Have shot that range in Colorado.
Yoder , then you're one of the 1%, right? 250 yds with a RF, is BS to me. And 450 headshots> more BS. I have a friend who won't even shoot a groundhogs "the close" , but he shoots out in Ohio and other places where wide open, and is setting at a table, shooting a Cheytac round. But we're talking about the PA mountains, and such place,were most of the time you don't have a 400 yd open shot, period. Where I've hunted most of my deer, a 50 yd shot long. I've shot competitive LR and so can hit a deer of something at a longer range, if needed to. But those ranges not available here. The other thing is a deer quickly becomes a mouse size target at 450 yds. Have shot that range in Colorado.
I know nothing of any 1%. I just grew up shooting and reloading and don't suck at it.
As far as BS......... the first liar don't stand a chance. But I can shoot 700+ yards by putting up my bedroom window. I haven't even pursued it hard and my personal, casual best with a rimfire is a groundhog at a lasered 280 yards. And it was a small groundhog. Have not monkeyed with any of my centerfires on groundhogs for a good many years. But my Swift shoots 3 shot groups at 100 from the high .1's to the mid .3's depending on whether I do my job or not. Last centerfire groundhogs I shot were with my bear rifle right around the 300 yard line. No fuss. No muss. For chitz and giggles, at the farm, we shoot an 8" round plate at 600 with sporter-weght rifles......some accurized.....some stock.....and most days, get bored with hitting it.
So if that makes me a liar or puts me in some theoretical percentile, then so be it. Most farm boys around here can shoot. Some better than others.
Yoder , then you're one of the 1%, right? 250 yds with a RF, is BS to me. And 450 headshots> more BS. I have a friend who won't even shoot a groundhogs "the close" , but he shoots out in Ohio and other places where wide open, and is setting at a table, shooting a Cheytac round. But we're talking about the PA mountains, and such place,were most of the time you don't have a 400 yd open shot, period. Where I've hunted most of my deer, a 50 yd shot long. I've shot competitive LR and so can hit a deer of something at a longer range, if needed to. But those ranges not available here. The other thing is a deer quickly becomes a mouse size target at 450 yds. Have shot that range in Colorado.
What you know about LR shooting in the Pa mountains can be written on a period.
Yoder , then you're one of the 1%, right? 250 yds with a RF, is BS to me. ,,,.
Daughter #2 hit 11 clay pigeons with 12 shots, 200 yard berm, Browning SA-22 I purchased new in 1974 and had probably 10K rounds through it at the time. Strong crosswind, She was aiming about a foot to the left.
2018, I painstakingly built a long range rifle in 280AI, and sighted in at long ranges, and then shot a 15" antelope buck free hand at ~~ 50 yards.
Long range hunting is in the planning, but what really happens in hunting could be anything.
Did a similar thing a few years back. Practiced extensively out to 600 yards, sat on a hill where 400-500 for elk was most likely, passed on a shot at 25 feet, took a shot that was about 25 yards.
That's why I prefer bullets that are good near to far.
2018, I painstakingly built a long range rifle in 280AI, and sighted in at long ranges, and then shot a 15" antelope buck free hand at ~~ 50 yards.
Long range hunting is in the planning, but what really happens in hunting could be anything.
Did a similar thing a few years back. Practiced extensively out to 600 yards, sat on a hill where 400-500 for elk was most likely, passed on a shot at 25 feet, took a shot that was about 25 yards.
That's why I prefer bullets that are good near to far.
2018, I painstakingly built a long range rifle in 280AI, and sighted in at long ranges, and then shot a 15" antelope buck free hand at ~~ 50 yards.
Long range hunting is in the planning, but what really happens in hunting could be anything.
Did a similar thing a few years back. Practiced extensively out to 600 yards, sat on a hill where 400-500 for elk was most likely, passed on a shot at 25 feet, took a shot that was about 25 yards.
That's why I prefer bullets that are good near to far.
Sounds like Hammer bullets.
Have never seen a Hammer bullet in person but the design doesn't leave me with any warm fuzzies. I simply don't trust bullets like the TTSX and other mono-, hollowpointed bullets to open reliably at low velocity - or even high velocity - based on experience with Barnes X bullets.
Bullets I do trust and use - at least as far as I'll shoot, which is 600 max and only then under perfect conditions - include the following: Barnes TTSX Swift Scirocco II Nosler AccuBond Swift A-Frame North Fork FP North Fork,SS North Fork HP
They will refund your money if you are not satisfied.
Thanks, but not interested. I have good loads for every rifle I shoot and for every purpose I use them for. I will admit the Federal Edge TLR is interesting and will likely get a try.
2018, I painstakingly built a long range rifle in 280AI, and sighted in at long ranges, and then shot a 15" antelope buck free hand at ~~ 50 yards.
Long range hunting is in the planning, but what really happens in hunting could be anything.
Did a similar thing a few years back. Practiced extensively out to 600 yards, sat on a hill where 400-500 for elk was most likely, passed on a shot at 25 feet, took a shot that was about 25 yards.
That's why I prefer bullets that are good near to far.
Sounds like Hammer bullets.
Originally Posted by Ringman
Coyote_Hunter ,
They will refund your money if you are not satisfied.
Tell us about your experience with Hammer bullets.
2018, I painstakingly built a long range rifle in 280AI, and sighted in at long ranges, and then shot a 15" antelope buck free hand at ~~ 50 yards.
Long range hunting is in the planning, but what really happens in hunting could be anything.
Did a similar thing a few years back. Practiced extensively out to 600 yards, sat on a hill where 400-500 for elk was most likely, passed on a shot at 25 feet, took a shot that was about 25 yards.
That's why I prefer bullets that are good near to far.
Sounds like Hammer bullets.
Originally Posted by Ringman
Coyote_Hunter ,
They will refund your money if you are not satisfied.
Tell us about your experience with Hammer bullets.
I have a 6.5 wildcat that matches a .264 Win Mag for case capacity but on a small Weatherby action. I tried to catch a Sledgehammer 130 in a 330 pig I killed. The bullet entered the center of the chest and exited 30” out the side near the back leg. Three of the petals also exited around it. I killed a couple deer last year with their 124 grain Hunter but didn’t catch either of them. A couple years back I had a .300 Blackout but sold it before hunting season so used their 101 grain bullets in my son-in-law’s .308. I fired them about 800 feet faster than they were designed for. The entrance in a buck was huge on a broadside shot. I caught that one. I guess it used up most of its energy on making a huge hole. Also I killed a doe with one. It exited but I dug it up. Both weighed about sixty grains.
I have a .375-.416 Rem Mag that I plan to use for elk this years. I prefer their Sledgehammer bullets and will use the 275 grainer, Lord willing. I fired half dozen at 300 yards with each load containing one grain more than the previous load. The “group” was about 2 ½”. I fired a three shot group at 100 yards and one at 300 yards: 9/16” and 1 11/16” respectively. Velocity is 2,960 feet per second.
The other day I read about a guy killing a water buffalo with a .300 RUM firing the Hunter 181 grainer at 3,400 feet per second. The bullet went through both shoulders and stopped without exiting.
First shot wind call error and animal movement are the real limits on the distance at which an ethical shot can be taken (that is, a vitals hit 100% guaranteed). Far too few shooters take them into account.
I would say 80%+ of shots over 500y are unethical, and it approaches 100% at 600y barring dead calm air and a sleeping animal.
Tell us about your experience with Hammer bullets.
Already did that. But I'll repeat it to make a correction:
"Have never seen a Hammer bullet in person but the design doesn't leave me with any warm fuzzies. I simply don't trust bullets like the TTSX and other mono-, hollowpointed bullets to open reliably at low velocity - or even high velocity - based on experience with Barnes X bullets."
The correction is I meant to write "bullets like the TSX...", not TTSX. My hunt group has not seen any indication of failure to expand using TTSX bullets, near (3000+fps) or far (~2200fps).
I feel no need to try every bullet that comes along, especially when the design is similar to ones that have failed to impress. Limited range time, in any case, precludes it.
A Savage 111 action is sitting in my safe, waiting to be re-barreled. One of my SILs is contemplating a .300 PRC for long range work and suggested that, but after looking at the .300 PRC, the clear conclusion was I have no need for it for much the same reasons I feel no need for a Hammer bullet - experimentation with either the .300 PRC or Hammer would be a time and money sink with little if any useful reward fpr my needs. In the case of the Hammer bullets, I don't need them under 600 yards (my limit for hunting shots under perfect conditions). For over 600 yards we're talking targets only and there are much less expensive bullets with higher B.C. values that I would use instead.
That said, I will likely re-barrel the Savage with a sporter-weight 6.5 PRC, which Hornady data shows can push a 143g ELD-X to 3150fps. At 7000 feet altitude that equates to about 2190fps and 1520fpe at 875 yards. At my hunting limit of 600 yards it would retain about 2470fps and 1925fps - well above my 2000fps/1500fpe rule-of-thumb for elk. Pretty much the equivalent of my heavy-barrel 6.5-06AI target rifle but in a comfortable carry-weight. The .300 PRC can't match it for drop and drift until past 1000 yards if using Hornady load data for the 212 ELD-X, and the .300 PRC requires over twice the recoil and 40% more powder to do that.
But maybe I'm missing something, Just what benefit do you think Hammer bullets would provide?
Tell us about your experience with Hammer bullets.
Already did that. But I'll repeat it to make a correction:
"Have never seen a Hammer bullet in person but the design doesn't leave me with any warm fuzzies. I simply don't trust bullets like the TTSX and other mono-, hollowpointed bullets to open reliably at low velocity - or even high velocity - based on experience with Barnes X bullets."
The correction is I meant to write "bullets like the TSX...", not TTSX. My hunt group has not seen any indication of failure to expand using TTSX bullets, near (3000+fps) or far (~2200fps).
I feel no need to try every bullet that comes along, especially when the design is similar to ones that have failed to impress. Limited range time, in any case, precludes it.
A Savage 111 action is sitting in my safe, waiting to be re-barreled. One of my SILs is contemplating a .300 PRC for long range work and suggested that, but after looking at the .300 PRC, the clear conclusion was I have no need for it for much the same reasons I feel no need for a Hammer bullet - experimentation with either the .300 PRC or Hammer would be a time and money sink with little if any useful reward fpr my needs. In the case of the Hammer bullets, I don't need them under 600 yards (my limit for hunting shots under perfect conditions). For over 600 yards we're talking targets only and there are much less expensive bullets with higher B.C. values that I would use instead.
That said, I will likely re-barrel the Savage with a sporter-weight 6.5 PRC, which Hornady data shows can push a 143g ELD-X to 3150fps. At 7000 feet altitude that equates to about 2190fps and 1520fpe at 875 yards. At my hunting limit of 600 yards it would retain about 2470fps and 1925fps - well above my 2000fps/1500fpe rule-of-thumb for elk. Pretty much the equivalent of my heavy-barrel 6.5-06AI target rifle but in a comfortable carry-weight. The .300 PRC can't match it for drop and drift until past 1000 yards if using Hornady load data for the 212 ELD-X, and the .300 PRC requires over twice the recoil and 40% more powder to do that.
But maybe I'm missing something, Just what benefit do you think Hammer bullets would provide?
My question was to Ringman. I have no opinion at all on them.
I have a different take on long range! A shot taken in thick brush or timber, where a bullet must be “threaded” thru a small opening could be “considered” long range ...,,though only 50 yards! It requires much discipline to accomplish this shot. A shot of 500 plus yards also requires much discipline....just a different type of discipline! How far.....is far?
Obviously, this group on the “fire” pertains to shooting at many yards, as in 500 plus yards.... but, short yardage, difficult shots should “not” be taken lightly! It’s all relative! memtb
Precisely. This is not an original observation, but lots of people who'd have no qualms taking a difficult shot through brush or at a running animal are all too quick to trot out the "unethical" flag when the subject of long shots comes up.
I would say 80%+ of shots over 500y are unethical, and it approaches 100% at 600y barring dead calm air and a sleeping animal.
I'd say it depends on the shooter.
Nope. Even the best shooters in the world are limited in how well they can call wind in the field on a first shot. +-2mph is a reasonable limit for the most skilled long range shooters on earth when shooting in field conditions.
Then consider how far an animal can move from a dead stop during the flight time of a bullet out to 500+ yards. Literally one step is the difference between a heart-lung shot and gut shot.
There is no skill a shooter can have that prevents that. They simply have to get closer.
+- 1 mph is more inline with the best wind readers.
In addition to wind reading, there is also animal reading. And yes, this skill tells you when to shoot and when not to; when the animal is calm at rest, and when it may suddenly move.
+- 1 mph is more inline with the best wind readers.
Nope, not on first shots in field conditions. Nice try though - long range hunting is the land of excuses to cover for unethical behavior
And unless the animal is asleep, there's ALWAYS a chance it moves. And I've yet to encounter an "long range hunter" that restricted themselves to shooting bedded animals, so don't even try that nonsense.
+- 1 mph is more inline with the best wind readers.
Nope, not on first shots in field conditions. Nice try though - long range hunting is the land of excuses to cover for unethical behavior
And unless the animal is asleep, there's ALWAYS a chance it moves. And I've yet to encounter an "long range hunter" that restricted themselves to shooting bedded animals, so don't even try that nonsense.
LOL, I don’t need to “try”- I actually get out and “do”. My statement wasn’t a question, but an observation from actual field experience. BTW, what first shots are not “in the field”? That’s a buzz word and nothing more. Even square shooting ranges have terrain features and present a challenge to estimate the net wind effect on a cold-bore shot. Public forestry land is always “field conditions”.
Don’t be ridiculous. Of course in hunting, no matter the range, there is always a chance the animal could move as the trigger breaks, or something else could go wrong. That’s why it takes skill to properly judge the scenario. There’s always a chance of a miss or a bad shot. Opportunities at LR just tend to give the shooter more time and a calmer situation to assess the shot.
I would say 80%+ of shots over 500y are unethical, and it approaches 100% at 600y barring dead calm air and a sleeping animal.
I'd say it depends on the shooter.
Nope. Even the best shooters in the world are limited in how well they can call wind in the field on a first shot. +-2mph is a reasonable limit for the most skilled long range shooters on earth when shooting in field conditions.
Then consider how far an animal can move from a dead stop during the flight time of a bullet out to 500+ yards. Literally one step is the difference between a heart-lung shot and gut shot.
There is no skill a shooter can have that prevents that. They simply have to get closer.
So, 100% of 600 yard shots are "unethical" unless the animal is sleeping.
I would say 80%+ of shots over 500y are unethical, and it approaches 100% at 600y barring dead calm air and a sleeping animal.
I'd say it depends on the shooter.
Nope. Even the best shooters in the world are limited in how well they can call wind in the field on a first shot. +-2mph is a reasonable limit for the most skilled long range shooters on earth when shooting in field conditions.
Then consider how far an animal can move from a dead stop during the flight time of a bullet out to 500+ yards. Literally one step is the difference between a heart-lung shot and gut shot.
There is no skill a shooter can have that prevents that. They simply have to get closer.
Excellent - excuses and personal attacks! Come on, explain how great a shot you are and how horrible I must be.
Keep 'em coming!
How far does a running elk move at 150 yards between the time you pull the trigger and the bullet gets there?
Is there 100% certainty of that shot?
Is it an “ethical” shot, simply because it’s inside of some arbitrary range?
I know guys who shoot hundreds and thousands of rounds a year at targets between 400 and 800 yards. I know NO ONE who practices shots at moving targets (with a scopes rifle). Yet, somehow, a shot over a couple hundred yards is “unethical”..... even though it’s been practiced extensively.... and a shot at a moving critter is perfectly acceptable... even though it’s unpracticed.
Llama... your hardline stance shows only a lack of true understanding of the subject matter at hand. Shoot more, listen better, and pontificate less.... maybe you’ll learn something.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
Oh of course, it's not the unethical excuse makers who need to learn. It's me, for exposing the excuses. Got it.
Keep that nonsense coming - you're only exposing yourselves
Of course.... you can’t answer a logical question.
Shoot at enough critters.... near or far.... and schitt happens. There’s never a 100% certainty.... ever. If you think there is... take up golf.
If you ever read "Traditional Bowhunter," you'll see that TJ Conrads (an acknowledged authority on traditional bowhunting and the publisher IIRC) pegs that number at 80%. Of course 80% is ethical if you get close.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
Have you ever taken a shot and missed?
On targets/steel, sure. On big game animals, nope. I don't take shots I'm not 100% sure I can hit the vitals.
I was hoping just for some good excuses here, but Dogshooter went above and beyond and provided a top notch rationalization too - "Everyone's done it, and if you say otherwise you're a liar!"
Rationalizations AND excuses. You guys are delivering and creating a top notch thread here. Keep 'em coming!
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it. .
You can't honestly demonstrate 100% first round vitals at 100 yds,
No one can.
It's our goal, but not guaranteed, by anyone at any range.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
bob, since you're one of those rare individuals who've never missed a shot I'll go in a different direction. There are a couple of flaws in your logic here, one already pointed out by Jordan. And that is, there are plenty of times when animals aren't moving and 0.6-0.7 tof is not an issue. Or to put it another way if it's an issue at 600 it'll be an issue at 150 and all it takes is experience to recognize the situation and hold off at either distance.
Second, you directed your "conditions" to me but your statement was absolute. Right now I propbably wouldn't take a 600 yard shot on a big game animal because I haven't been shooting enough lately. But I'm not arrogant or vain enough to think there's no one else out there who could make that shot with confidence. I've shot with a few of 'em.
You should probably get out and shoot with some good long-range shooters before you conclude that there's no one out there who could make a 600 yard shot.
There’s two kinds of hunters..... those who’ve missed/lost game.... and liars.
That was my first thought but I think with old righteous bob it's more like an old-timer, one of the best hunters I ever met, told me.
"Any hunter who's never missed a shot either ain't hunted much, or ain't trying hard enough."
Originally Posted by Kenneth
Originally Posted by Llama_Bob
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it. .
You can't honestly demonstrate 100% first round vitals at 100 yds,
No one can.
It's our goal, but not guaranteed, by anyone at any range.
As I posted above he is an idiot, reading his BS makes it obvious
I just tickled three rocks from 1100 to 1109 yards the last half hour before sunset with 27 minutes and 3 minutes left wind with my 7 Mashburn and 160gr accubonds at 3200, what a little sweetheart!
I was hoping just for some good excuses here, but Dogshooter went above and beyond and provided a top notch rationalization too - "Everyone's done it, and if you say otherwise you're a liar!"
Rationalizations AND excuses. You guys are delivering and creating a top notch thread here. Keep 'em coming!
Yet..... you can’t even answer a simple question..... I’m shocked.
Never argue with a fool, he'll drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. Not sure why that saying popped in my head reading this thread...
I was hoping just for some good excuses here, but Dogshooter went above and beyond and provided a top notch rationalization too - "Everyone's done it, and if you say otherwise you're a liar!"
Rationalizations AND excuses. You guys are delivering and creating a top notch thread here. Keep 'em coming!
Lmao.....
Posers on the internet never aren't hilarious.....
I used to practice quite a bit out to 1200 yards. Will be practicing out to a mile possibly soon. But at this point only out to 800 yards when I can. In any case the farthest shot I've taken on big game is 125 yards and I like it that way. 500 yards is what my set limit is and I'm not excited about pushing it out that far. Just too many variables. On varmints I'll push it as far as I can get a clean 1st shot kill. I consider my 400 yard coldbore headshot on a rock chuck with my M4 the best shot I've made.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
This is classic....
Moves at animal speeds? Does the fact that some animals are slower than others mean you can shoot the slow ones further away? Remember, the LR gang are not advocating shooting LR at animals that are moving.
Please go into further detail on MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS.
Before you completely act the fool, let me give you a tip. There are people out there that can do things you or I can't, and there always will be. Some can hit a 100mph fast ball, while all you would know about it is the slap of the ball into the catchers mitt. Some can play golf on the pro level and comparatively you can only do mediocore on the silly golf range. Some can shoot and obviously as of now you are not on their level.
But I'm interested in your MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS knowledge....
He can wave it all he wants but it doesn't change anything. I'm no LR shooter, but there are those who are. He obviously isn't either, but it doesn't change the reality of those who are.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
This is classic....
Moves at animal speeds? Does the fact that some animals are slower than others mean you can shoot the slow ones further away? Remember, the LR gang are not advocating shooting LR at animals that are moving.
Please go into further detail on MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS.
Before you completely act the fool, let me give you a tip. There are people out there that can do things you or I can't, and there always will be. Some can hit a 100mph fast ball, while all you would know about it is the slap of the ball into the catchers mitt. Some can play golf on the pro level and comparatively you can only do mediocore on the silly golf range. Some can shoot and obviously as of now you are not on their level.
But I'm interested in your MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS knowledge....
Wal, I'm an animal, an old one, and I can move 15 feet in one second, starting from sitting in a chair. I submit that as an example of animal movement speed. Cut that in half if we want, and it is still a miss or badly placed hit from a bullet with an eighth of a second flight time between barrel and target.
I just happened to wander by this forum and see that the same denial (of the possibility of wounding an animal) from SOME long rangers never ends. And critics are still voicing the same two basic problems: ethics and physics. I will leave the ethics to my betters. What I can never understand is that some long rangers refuse to admit the possibility of gut shooting a critter at long range due to inexorable physics.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
This is classic....
Moves at animal speeds? Does the fact that some animals are slower than others mean you can shoot the slow ones further away? Remember, the LR gang are not advocating shooting LR at animals that are moving.
Please go into further detail on MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS.
Before you completely act the fool, let me give you a tip. There are people out there that can do things you or I can't, and there always will be. Some can hit a 100mph fast ball, while all you would know about it is the slap of the ball into the catchers mitt. Some can play golf on the pro level and comparatively you can only do mediocore on the silly golf range. Some can shoot and obviously as of now you are not on their level.
But I'm interested in your MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS knowledge....
Wal, I'm an animal, an old one, and I can move 15 feet in one second, starting from sitting in a chair. I submit that as an example of animal movement speed. Cut that in half if we want, and it is still a miss or badly placed hit from a bullet with an eighth of a second flight time between barrel and target.
I just happened to wander by this forum and see that the same denial (of the possibility of wounding an animal) from SOME long rangers never ends. And critics are still voicing the same two basic problems: ethics and physics. I will leave the ethics to my betters. What I can never understand is that some long rangers refuse to admit the possibility of gut shooting a critter at long range due to inexorable physics.
You’re as big an idiot as the other one.
Have you dudes ever read body language on an animal. What are the real chances of movement while making the shot? I’ve never had an animal move while making a long range shot.
I made this comment based on LB's assertion that he never has missed hitting an animal in the vitals that he was shooting at. Only those who've killed relatively few animals can make such a claim.
I made this comment based on LB's assertion that he never has missed hitting an animal in the vitals that he was shooting at. Only those who've killed relatively few animals can make such a claim.
To join the fun, I can honestly say I've never missed an animal that I've hit in the vitals at any range I was shooting at.
They don't refuse to admit the possibility of something going wrong any more than the close range crowd refusing to admit something can. Show me once were they refuse to admit it can't happen.
Last Deer I killed was running at perhaps 30yards and it wasn't the first. Can something bad happen the next time? Most definitely. The one before that, standing perhaps 10yards and he was looking at me on high alert. He also could have bolted at the wrong fraction of a second. But to say the LR people don't have a handle on wither an animal is about to bolt or not, on wither the odds are highly likely that when the bullet is on the way the animal will still be in the same position, is not giving them credit for knowing how to play their game. From what Ive seen over the years, perhaps more Deer are shot badly by MR Average and up close, than by the dedicated and skilled LR crowd. Dedicated and skilled being the defining qualifier. Do some shoot past the range of their skill level? Most definitely, but that is not grounds to say those that have the skill shouldn't.
Some can, some can't and everyone should try to acknowledge where they are signed off.
I made this comment based on LB's assertion that he never has missed hitting an animal in the vitals that he was shooting at. Only those who've killed relatively few animals can make such a claim.
I was cruising for coyotes with a grizzled old professional wolfer in Central BC one winter when we met a fellow in another pick-up coming our way. We stopped and did the chat through rolled down windows for a bit. The fellow mentioned that he had never missed a coyote. When we drove on the codger with me said, "He's either a liar or he ain't shot at many coyotes."
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
This is classic....
Moves at animal speeds? Does the fact that some animals are slower than others mean you can shoot the slow ones further away? Remember, the LR gang are not advocating shooting LR at animals that are moving.
Please go into further detail on MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS.
Before you completely act the fool, let me give you a tip. There are people out there that can do things you or I can't, and there always will be. Some can hit a 100mph fast ball, while all you would know about it is the slap of the ball into the catchers mitt. Some can play golf on the pro level and comparatively you can only do mediocore on the silly golf range. Some can shoot and obviously as of now you are not on their level.
But I'm interested in your MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS knowledge....
Wal, I'm an animal, an old one, and I can move 15 feet in one second, starting from sitting in a chair. I submit that as an example of animal movement speed. Cut that in half if we want, and it is still a miss or badly placed hit from a bullet with an eighth of a second flight time between barrel and target.
I just happened to wander by this forum and see that the same denial (of the possibility of wounding an animal) from SOME long rangers never ends. And critics are still voicing the same two basic problems: ethics and physics. I will leave the ethics to my betters. What I can never understand is that some long rangers refuse to admit the possibility of gut shooting a critter at long range due to inexorable physics.
Something similar happened to me over a decade ago.… at under 100 yards.
I had drawn a special license for an area that came with 3 MD doe tags. I located a feeding herd and got to within 100 yards. I selected a doe that was alone on the edge of the herd. I got a steady rest, and got set up behind the rifle. In the time that it took me to ready a perfect shot, because of my scope magnification setting and the limited FOV at that range, I didn’t notice another animal rushing in from my strong side toward my targeted animal, where my support eye couldn’t see it. It was just as the trigger was breaking that the animal came into my FOV in the scope, as it lunged in front of the doe I was targeting. As the trigger broke, I wished I could take back the shot, knowing that my targeted animal was no longer separate from the others. My bullet struck the “lunger” in the ear hole- an instant kill. Luckily for me, I had three tags.
I maintain that if the shot had been at 450+ yards, my FOV would have been large enough that I’d have seen the rogue animal coming before starting my trigger squeeze. So I’d argue that in some circumstances, it can be easier to make a bad shot at close range than far, due in part to the increased FOV at longer distance, and also, because LR shots are not rushed, the calmer situation to assess.
The hard, fast statements of critisicm that some guys like to associate with LR shots on game can often be applied to close-range shots, too. Hunting has risks. It’s up to us to mitigate those risks, but we can never truly eliminate them.
Were those rocks already dead when you started shooting at them and were the the first three shots of the day? At sun rise?
Yessir, they det, been det since the great volcanic explosions that formed that mountain put em there, those were the only shots I fired yesterday, spent the day in town around idiots and needed a little release, stopped by the shop on the way into the house and hauled in a quart of homemade muscadine wine.
I made this comment based on LB's assertion that he never has missed hitting an animal in the vitals that he was shooting at. Only those who've killed relatively few animals can make such a claim.
To join the fun, I can honestly say I've never missed an animal that I've hit in the vitals at any range I was shooting at.
And to add to the fun, hunting Africa last year, as I broke the set trigger on a monster blue black Sable bull at 101 yards with my 50-90 Sharps he began to walk, I near chit down both legs, nothing I could do but hope for the best, got VERY lucky, that big 50 cal flat nosed 750gr grease grove bullet chit-canned his liver, WHEEEW!!!!!, first and foremost I didn't want him to suffer, secondly, that big sombitch carried a 6500 dollar trophy fee!
Nothing goes far without a liver. Plus there are some major arteries there. Nice shooting....
LOL Thanks, I guess the set trigger is less than 6 ounces, I was pressing on it when he began to move down my front sight, BOOOMMMM, then . was so very glad to find him.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
This is classic....
Moves at animal speeds? Does the fact that some animals are slower than others mean you can shoot the slow ones further away? Remember, the LR gang are not advocating shooting LR at animals that are moving.
Please go into further detail on MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS.
Before you completely act the fool, let me give you a tip. There are people out there that can do things you or I can't, and there always will be. Some can hit a 100mph fast ball, while all you would know about it is the slap of the ball into the catchers mitt. Some can play golf on the pro level and comparatively you can only do mediocore on the silly golf range. Some can shoot and obviously as of now you are not on their level.
But I'm interested in your MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS knowledge....
Wal, I'm an animal, an old one, and I can move 15 feet in one second, starting from sitting in a chair. I submit that as an example of animal movement speed. Cut that in half if we want, and it is still a miss or badly placed hit from a bullet with an eighth of a second flight time between barrel and target.
I just happened to wander by this forum and see that the same denial (of the possibility of wounding an animal) from SOME long rangers never ends. And critics are still voicing the same two basic problems: ethics and physics. I will leave the ethics to my betters. What I can never understand is that some long rangers refuse to admit the possibility of gut shooting a critter at long range due to inexorable physics.
You’re as big an idiot as the other one.
Have you dudes ever read body language on an animal. What are the real chances of movement while making the shot? I’ve never had an animal move while making a long range shot.
JW, thanks for confirming your membership in the emotional long range cult. FWIW I am considered exceptionally good at reading animal body language and at predicting what an animal will do as we watch it, from coyotes to cougars to moose to mice. But I admit that I am not perfect, which confirms my status as an idiot, compared to you who has NEVER failed to read animal body language perfectly.
Here's a recent anecdote: I was watching a young bull moose as it fed in a quiet pond, nose down in weedy water about a foot deep. Peaceful evening, no wind, glassy water, silent... and suddenly the bull leaped up and backward, flinging water high and jerking its nose way up. It looked funny and I assume that something bit or stuck the bull on its nose.
Any expert body language reader would know that the bull was going to suddenly change from standing still to a violent quick leap, and that the leap would be backwards, not forward. Easy read. I'm sure you would have read that one correctly, and had you been aiming at it would have known not to go ahead with the trigger.
Anyone who has never misread animal body language has not watched many animals, close or far.
The key phrase you use is "chances of movement while making the shot." Yep. It is chances, not sure thing. That's my point, and saying that all else being equal, the chances of a good hit go down as range increases makes me an idiot.
Jordan Smith gets it. He posted "The hard, fast statements of critisicm that some guys like to associate with LR shots on game can often be applied to close-range shots, too. Hunting has risks. It’s up to us to mitigate those risks, but we can never truly eliminate them."
We can never truly eliminate the risks. All else being equal, the risks are higher at long range. That is mere reality. Oops. That is idiocy.
If you can demonstrate 100% first round vitals hits at that range, in unknown wind field conditions, on a target that moves at animal speeds whenever it feels like, then go for it.
If not, just admit you're OK with gut shooting animals from time to time and move on.
This is classic....
Moves at animal speeds? Does the fact that some animals are slower than others mean you can shoot the slow ones further away? Remember, the LR gang are not advocating shooting LR at animals that are moving.
Please go into further detail on MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS.
Before you completely act the fool, let me give you a tip. There are people out there that can do things you or I can't, and there always will be. Some can hit a 100mph fast ball, while all you would know about it is the slap of the ball into the catchers mitt. Some can play golf on the pro level and comparatively you can only do mediocore on the silly golf range. Some can shoot and obviously as of now you are not on their level.
But I'm interested in your MOVES AT ANIMAL SPEEDS knowledge....
Wal, I'm an animal, an old one, and I can move 15 feet in one second, starting from sitting in a chair. I submit that as an example of animal movement speed. Cut that in half if we want, and it is still a miss or badly placed hit from a bullet with an eighth of a second flight time between barrel and target.
I just happened to wander by this forum and see that the same denial (of the possibility of wounding an animal) from SOME long rangers never ends. And critics are still voicing the same two basic problems: ethics and physics. I will leave the ethics to my betters. What I can never understand is that some long rangers refuse to admit the possibility of gut shooting a critter at long range due to inexorable physics.
Something similar happened to me over a decade ago.… at under 100 yards.
I had drawn a special license for an area that came with 3 MD doe tags. I located a feeding herd and got to within 100 yards. I selected a doe that was alone on the edge of the herd. I got a steady rest, and got set up behind the rifle. In the time that it took me to ready a perfect shot, because of my scope magnification setting and the limited FOV at that range, I didn’t notice another animal rushing in from my strong side toward my targeted animal, where my support eye couldn’t see it. It was just as the trigger was breaking that the animal came into my FOV in the scope, as it lunged in front of the doe I was targeting. As the trigger broke, I wished I could take back the shot, knowing that my targeted animal was no longer separate from the others. My bullet struck the “lunger” in the ear hole- an instant kill. Luckily for me, I had three tags.
I maintain that if the shot had been at 450+ yards, my FOV would have been large enough that I’d have seen the rogue animal coming before starting my trigger squeeze. So I’d argue that in some circumstances, it can be easier to make a bad shot at close range than far, due in part to the increased FOV at longer distance, and also, because LR shots are not rushed, the calmer situation to assess.
The hard, fast statements of critisicm that some guys like to associate with LR shots on game can often be applied to close-range shots, too. Hunting has risks. It’s up to us to mitigate those risks, but we can never truly eliminate them.
Exactly, but those that don’t theorize and spouts BS
Have you dudes ever read body language on an animal. What are the real chances of movement while making the shot? I’ve never had an animal move while making a long range shot.
What do you look for in order to be sure that an animal isn't going to move in the next 1 second? (The approx time of flight at 600yds)
I only kill a few deer each year & I don't bow hunt, so I may not see as many as some of you.
It is always so easy to find one example to prove ones point. An exceptional reader of animal body language had the unique experience of seeing a Bull Moose and how it reacts to being bit on the nose, and then can extrapolate that perhaps once in a human lifetime event to the ethics of LR shooting. Just wow....
I once saw a Moose Cow look and then ignore me from perhaps 70 yards. Therefore, all Moose Cows will probably give you a look and then go on and ignore you. That is my one experience. Wow....
Have you dudes ever read body language on an animal. What are the real chances of movement while making the shot? I’ve never had an animal move while making a long range shot.
What do you look for in order to be sure that an animal isn't going to move in the next 1 second? (The approx time of flight at 600yds)
I only kill a few deer each year & I don't bow hunt, so I may not see as many as some of you.
Their ears, eyes, neck and shoulders, looking for thictchenes the same as I look for on a young horse to know if he is about to spook. Nothing and I mean nothing is 100% but this stacks the odds in your favor very highly. If an animal keeps looking in one direction, yo7 can rest assured there is something in that direction that has its attention.
Bow hunting it is important to know when to draw the bow and when not to draw by reading body language.
In theory.... the risks at long range are greater.
In theory.... the risks of shooting at moving animals is greater.
In theory.... we should all shoot enough, and hunt enough, to discern for ourselves when the risks are mitigated to an acceptable level to break a shot.
In reality... dipschitts abound, and animals get wounded... at all ranges.
In theory.... the risks at long range are greater.
In theory.... the risks of shooting at moving animals is greater.
In theory.... we should all shoot enough, and hunt enough, to discern for ourselves when the risks are mitigated to an acceptable level to break a shot.
In reality... dipschitts abound, and animals get wounded... at all ranges.
Were those rocks already dead when you started shooting at them and were the the first three shots of the day? At sun rise?
Yessir, they det, been det since the great volcanic explosions that formed that mountain put em there, those were the only shots I fired yesterday, spent the day in town around idiots and needed a little release, stopped by the shop on the way into the house and hauled in a quart of homemade muscadine wine.
G5...I’m sure I would recognize you immediately in a crowd of city dwellers. You’d be the guy mirroring my expression of “WTF” and “Dismay” on your face as you try to navigate through these idiots. And, a slight print of a firearm on your hip that only those who’ve carried forever would notice...
I’m finally back to my Redneck home...What a relief. 😎
Question to the posters who feel taking a shot at a distance you have determined is unethical...
Is your opinion based on what you’ve seen on tv? Read in a magazine/on-line? Maybe you witnessed this in person as a spotter, or were you the actual shooter with an unfortunate outcome trying to harvest an animal at a distance beyond your abilities?
Whatever the answer to the above. You likely arrived at this bias from determining your own limitations under hunting conditions after a failure, now making them everyone’s limitations.
Objectively, these are your limits-Your realities, not mine, or others...When you try masking your failure, hiding your truth behind animal movement, then equating it to automatic wounding for everyone...
This proves your lack of experience on a range shooting distances that caused a wounded animal for you. I’m assuming a lot here about you...As you are assuming a lot about others. Fair to say we are both wrong in our assumptions. 😎
It is always so easy to find one example to prove ones point. An exceptional reader of animal body language had the unique experience of seeing a Bull Moose and how it reacts to being bit on the nose, and then can extrapolate that perhaps once in a human lifetime event to the ethics of LR shooting. Just wow....
I once saw a Moose Cow look and then ignore me from perhaps 70 yards. Therefore, all Moose Cows will probably give you a look and then go on and ignore you. That is my one experience. Wow....
You're the one doing the extrapolating. You introduced ethics. I avoided ethics and said so. I merely told the tale. Do with it what you want but own what you do with it. Animals move. Sometimes they move when we don't expect them to. Deal with it. It is reality. Movement may not be likely at a given moment but the possibility is reality. On any shot any of us take we try to reduce the odds of a miss as low as possible, at long or short range.
It is curious why a significant percentage of long rangers are so defensive. This started with a question (that seemed defensive or sarcastic) about how fast an animal can move, as if that is a stupid topic when one is shooting at the animal. Since my reply about how fast this old animal can move, all I have said is that other things being equal, distance reduces odds of a hit and I agreed with someone that no one can totally control nor predict wind nor animal movement. That is mere reality. Reasonable people agree, do what they can to improve their odds and take their shot. Good for them. Defensive folks call it idiocy and being judgmental.
Will add that the level of civility, common sense and relaxed discussion of reality has advanced enormously beyond the last time I ventured near any long range thread. With a number of people here it is now possible to actually discuss the miss factors and odds in making a long range hit, how to overcome them, and do it rationally as a problem to be solved rather than as emotional tenets of a faith. I scale back my comments about long range cultists, sincerely and with apology to the many here who shoot long range without the emotional trappings. You are becoming a majority compared to a few years ago. That is good to see.
FWIW I killed an elk at at least 690 yards one time but do not consider myself a long range hunter, though I like to have as many tools as possible available.
It is curious why a significant percentage of long rangers are so defensive. This started with a question (that seemed defensive or sarcastic) about how fast an animal can move, as if that is a stupid topic when one is shooting at the animal.
In all honesty I think the comment about taking shots at animals "moving at animal speeds" was a stupid comment. Because I don't know anyone who takes long range shots at moving animals. Yes it's true that stationary animals can move, but an undisturbed stationary animal is not going to all of a sudden decide to move, accelerate from a dead stop, and move very far in 0.65 seconds.
Having said that I can understand why some decide never to take such a shot. I just can't understand someone jumping to the conclusion that anyone else taking the shot is "unethical."
[quote=battue] Wal, I'm an animal, an old one, and I can move 15 feet in one second, starting from sitting in a chair. I submit that as an example of animal movement speed. Cut that in half if we want, and it is still a miss or badly placed hit from a bullet with an eighth of a second flight time between barrel and target.
I just happened to wander by this forum and see that the same denial (of the possibility of wounding an animal) from SOME long rangers never ends. And critics are still voicing the same two basic problems: ethics and physics. I will leave the ethics to my betters. What I can never understand is that some long rangers refuse to admit the possibility of gut shooting a critter at long range due to inexorable physics.
While I'm far from the best shot around, I do practice on clay pigeons at 600 with hit rates about 40 when the wind cooperates, That with multiple rifles.
I've also shot and shot at quite a few moving animals including a few antelope and a lot of coyotes. Given that experience, I'd rather take my time and shoot at a relaxed elk at 600 yards than one running crosswise at 100.
You're the one doing the extrapolating. You introduced ethics. I avoided ethics and said so. I merely told the tale. Do with it what you want but own what you do with it. Animals move. Sometimes they move when we don't expect them to. Deal with it. It is reality. Movement may not be likely at a given moment but the possibility is reality. On any shot any of us take we try to reduce the odds of a miss as low as possible, at long or short range.
It is curious why a significant percentage of long rangers are so defensive. This started with a question (that seemed defensive or sarcastic) about how fast an animal can move, as if that is a stupid topic when one is shooting at the animal. Since my reply about how fast this old animal can move, all I have said is that other things being equal, distance reduces odds of a hit and I agreed with someone that no one can totally control nor predict wind nor animal movement. That is mere reality. Reasonable people agree, do what they can to improve their odds and take their shot. Good for them. Defensive folks call it idiocy and being judgmental.
Like I said the tale was a one off example and shouldn't be the basis of an opinion re LR hunting. Ethics? That is your position when you keep on about how the LR shooters are gut shooting animals and use a one off to defend it.
My thoughts are if you have the skills, I don't have a problem with the ethics of it. The reality is the good LR shooters seem to have minimal problems with animals moving at the shot. Something you have little basis to disagree with since you don't play their game. And that is the definitive reality....
You also add on your "The LR shooters refuse to admit line" which is wrong at best and BS at worst. Which would be another reality....
Addition: I would find little joy in shooting an animal at 600 yards. Have shot them out past 300 and didn't find any joy in it either. Doesn't mean those who can and do so don't.
Were those rocks already dead when you started shooting at them and were the the first three shots of the day? At sun rise?
Yessir, they det, been det since the great volcanic explosions that formed that mountain put em there, those were the only shots I fired yesterday, spent the day in town around idiots and needed a little release, stopped by the shop on the way into the house and hauled in a quart of homemade muscadine wine.
G5...I’m sure I would recognize you immediately in a crowd of city dwellers. You’d be the guy mirroring my expression of “WTF” and “Dismay” on your face as you try to navigate through these idiots. And, a slight print of a firearm on your hip that only those who’ve carried forever would notice...
I’m finally back to my Redneck home...What a relief. 😎
LOL, I try to run a poker face with sunglasses on and no direct eye contact , but holy DAMN f they could read our minds, and Yessir, in a good headwind appendix carry bulge is slightly visible for those in the know, glad as hell You're back home too!
Like I said the tale was a one off example and shouldn't be the basis of an opinion re LR hunting.
Where did I give an opinion about LR hunting? YOU are assuming what my opinion is, and it is NOT my opinion.
Ethics? That is your position when you keep on about how the LR shooters are gut shooting animals and use a one off to defend it. I hope that your shooting skills are better than your reading comprehension. I said nothing of the kind.
My thoughts are if you have the skills, I don't have a problem with the ethics of it. The reality is the good LR shooters seem to have minimal problems with animals moving at the shot. Something you have little basis to disagree with since you don't play their game. And that is the definitive reality....
You also add on your "The LR shooters refuse to admit line" which is wrong at best and BS at worst. Which would be another reality....
I didn't say that. If you are going to quote somebody, get it right.
I have killed elk at long range and have found four elk gut shot at long range by others. I speak from experience, and despite your apparent inability to comprehend what I actually wrote, have not once questioned the ethics nor said that anyone should not shoot animals at long range. I HAVE expressed the reality that the possibility of a hit somewhere different than intended goes up at extreme range, and that includes gut shots. You keep extrapolating comments about physical facts into the arena of ethics. That's you, Bro, not me. Is your conscience bothering you?
SOME long rangers, not all, are so defensive about the subject that they instantly jump to the conclusion that anyone who dares ask or comment about wind, animal movement etc. is attacking their cherished long range hunting.
You are reading in what is not there. If you make up what the other person says, you don't need anyone else for this conversation.
It is curious why a significant percentage of long rangers are so defensive. This started with a question (that seemed defensive or sarcastic) about how fast an animal can move, as if that is a stupid topic when one is shooting at the animal.
In all honesty I think the comment about taking shots at animals "moving at animal speeds" was a stupid comment. Because I don't know anyone who takes long range shots at moving animals. Yes it's true that stationary animals can move, but an undisturbed stationary animal is not going to all of a sudden decide to move, accelerate from a dead stop, and move very far in 0.65 seconds.
Having said that I can understand why some decide never to take such a shot. I just can't understand someone jumping to the conclusion that anyone else taking the shot is "unethical."
Add to that 0.65 seconds, the average time for the brain to make the decision for the finger to pull the trigger and the finger to act....now we’re approaching that 1 second. It is not “just” bullet flight time that should be factored in! I’m “not” opposed to and will take a lengthy shot on game....but all possible factors should be recognized! The biggest factor, for those of us that are human.....we “can” screw-up! memtb
In all honesty I think the comment about taking shots at animals "moving at animal speeds" was a stupid comment. Because I don't know anyone who takes long range shots at moving animals. Yes it's true that stationary animals can move, but an undisturbed stationary animal is not going to all of a sudden decide to move, accelerate from a dead stop, and move very far in 0.65 seconds.
Having said that I can understand why some decide never to take such a shot. I just can't understand someone jumping to the conclusion that anyone else taking the shot is "unethical."
Add to that 0.65 seconds, the average time for the brain to make the decision for the finger to pull the trigger and the finger to act....now we’re approaching that 1 second. It is not “just” bullet flight time that should be factored in! I’m “not” opposed to and will take a lengthy shot on game....but all possible factors should be recognized! The biggest factor, for those of us that are human.....we “can” screw-up! memtb
While confessing our sins, I had a whitetail "jump the string" when I shot it broadside at 40 foot range with a hot loaded 6mm Remington. Through the thrown up scope I saw its muscles start to bunch under its skin so I hurried my trigger squeeze to rib shoot the buck through a 3 foot wide hole in brush. By the millisecond of time it took for the sear to break, I called the shot as a hit through both hams, where the crosshairs were by the time the bullet left the barrel. That's where I hit it. (OK, you may rag on my reaction time.)
On a buck rattled in and facing me at 50 yards, I shot as it started to move. The bullet plowed a furrow through hair the full length along one side, hip to shoulder. During my reaction time, the buck had turned 180 degrees.
The simple truth is that we do all that we can to reduce risk of a bad hit, do all that we can to insure a good hit, and then pull the trigger and take our chances -- at any range. The miss factors to overcome increase geometrically as range increases. Fortunately the technology for long range accuracy is phenomenal, but it is not meat in the freezer till we find out if the bullet went where we intended.
I think that’s one of the components to a LR shot, that lots of people don’t consider..... the amount of time one has to get that shot off.
Your typical LR shot occurs in minutes.... even hours. There’s time to observe the animal, the terrain, the wind, the angles, etc. The shooter gets to pick the very best time to let that bullet go, he’s not reacting in an instant. All of the variables are accounted for (as best they can be), and there’s a frame of reference for the shot (based on previous practice).
In the scenarios described above.... those were “snap” shots, taken in an instant, without the ability (necessity?) to take variables into consideration. Some of those shots end badly, just the same as some LR shots end badly.
Furthermore..... imagine the outrage if someone talked of taking a 500 yard shot through a “3 foot wide hole in the brush”.... it would light the interweb on Fire! Yet, that’s a perfectly acceptable shot for someone else... based arbitrarily on range?
Dogshooter, good points. You are a refreshing realist.
Re the three foot hole in brush, think minutes of angle. A rough figure is that 36 inches is well over 200 minutes of angle at 40 foot range (240 MOA I think). If my one-coffee morning mental math is correct, at 500 yards a 36 inch hole is a smidge over 7 minutes of angle. For reference, 7 MOA equates to a 7 inch target at 100 yards.
200 minutes of angle is a big target. 7 MOA is not, under most hunting conditions, though easily hittable with time, a good rest, good gear and a reasonably good shooter.
I.e. 200 MOA at 40 feet is easily doable offhand. 7 MOA is not easily doable offhand for most hunters. Same size hole in brush, hugely different target as the range increases, which bring us back to the increasing difficulties of hitting at long range. Long rangers who hit stuff consistently are really good.
You found 4 Elk that were gut shot. When you found them how did you know they were initially shot at long range? I’m sure there is a story there, so have at it.
Then we get your own stories of animals making their move as you were shooting. Perhaps you are not the expert on animal body language you previously claimed to be?
In addition, I’m not your bro and finally you are giving the old farts a bad rep with your stories. But it is obvious you shouldn’t be shooting LR. Then you have need to guess re my conscious. Which by now is not surprising.
battue, I’m not trying to be argumentative and am “not” opposed to long range shooting of game.....but, a snapping of a twig, the smell of a predator or a human, and other factors can cause a “seemingly” relaxed animal to bolt without warning! If it happens at exactly the “wrong” time....we have a missed or wounded animal. Taking the shot is what we must all deal with.....assuming the animal “will not” move is rather unrealistic! memtb
battue, I’m not trying to be argumentative and am “not” opposed to long range shooting of game.....but, a snapping of a twig, the smell of a predator or a human, and other factors can cause a “seemingly” relaxed animal to bolt without warning! If it happens at exactly the “wrong” time....we have a missed or wounded animal. Taking the shot is what we must all deal with.....assuming the animal “will not” move is rather unrealistic! memtb
Good point. Having our human scent and sounds farther away from the critter, as with a LR shot, reduces the chance of the animal becoming alarmed by us at the wrong split second.
200 minutes of angle is a big target. 7 MOA is not, under most hunting conditions, though easily hittable with time, a good rest, good gear and a reasonably good shooter.
I.e. 200 MOA at 40 feet is easily doable offhand. 7 MOA is not easily doable offhand for most hunters. Same size hole in brush, hugely different target as the range increases, which bring us back to the increasing difficulties of hitting at long range. Long rangers who hit stuff consistently are really good.
BTW, love that little Itsy Bitsy call!
If you can’t hit a 7 MOA target.... you should take up golf. I watch my kids, wife, and a hundred random people a year... hit 2-3 MOA sized target out to 1/2 mile with relative ease. Now.... that doesn’t mean they should be shooting critters that far away.... it just means 7 MOA sized targets are actually quite easy to hit.
But you do bring up another oft overlooked point about LR shots.... they’re taken off much better “rests” than your typical “hunting” shot that’s taken off-hand or leaning against a tree.
So... now we can see, from your examples above.... how/why a “Long Range Shot”.... May actually be LESS risky than some of the “Close Range Shots”.....
You’re taking a very quick (sub-2 second?) off-hand shot, at highly alert/moving animal, with brush in the way. You’re amped up, and have to make it all come together RIGHT NOW, or Never.
I’m taking a highly calculated shot, at a completely unaware animal, with nothing in the way. I’m able to watch the critter for 10 minutes, judge wind, and get a very solid rest. I choose when to send that bullet... because I have ample opportunity to wait it out. I’ve practice that 550ish yard shot hundreds and hundreds of times.
Which of those scenarios is more likely to produce a miss... or worse, a poor hit?
Seriously.... think about it for a minute... don’t just automatically go to the “range” issue.... look at the whole situation.
Thanks for the compliment on the Itsy Bitsy.... it really is a great little call.
I’m not arguing either. And all you mention “can” happen. I have somewhere near or perhaps over 100 Pa Deer tags that have been filled, the vast majority on standing or slow moving Deer that didn’t know I was about to pull the trigger. None yet have escaped due to a surprised move on their part.
No doubt, for sure I’m due, but obviously it will not be the norm. Hell, I can get take the safety off when they are close and have yet to put one on alert. No doubt, I’m due.
battue, I’m not trying to be argumentative and am “not” opposed to long range shooting of game.....but, a snapping of a twig, the smell of a predator or a human, and other factors can cause a “seemingly” relaxed animal to bolt without warning! If it happens at exactly the “wrong” time....we have a missed or wounded animal. Taking the shot is what we must all deal with.....assuming the animal “will not” move is rather unrealistic! memtb
Good point. Having our human scent and sounds farther away from the critter, as with a LR shot, reduces the chance of the animal becoming alarmed by us at the wrong split second.
Jordan, That’s a great point.....”IF”, you are the only hunter in the area! Which, I wish were true....but is rarely the case! memtb
7 MOA is not easily doable offhand for most hunters.
If you can’t hit a 7 MOA target.... you should take up golf. I watch my kids, wife, and a hundred random people a year... hit 2-3 MOA sized target out to 1/2 mile with relative ease. Now.... that doesn’t mean they should be shooting critters that far away.... it just means 7 MOA sized targets are actually quite easy to hit.
I haven't seen but maybe 1 out of 100 competitive shooters that could hit a 7 MOA target 20 out of 20 from Standing. Maybe 5 out of 100 could go 10 for 10.
battue, I’m not trying to be argumentative and am “not” opposed to long range shooting of game.....but, a snapping of a twig, the smell of a predator or a human, and other factors can cause a “seemingly” relaxed animal to bolt without warning! If it happens at exactly the “wrong” time....we have a missed or wounded animal. Taking the shot is what we must all deal with.....assuming the animal “will not” move is rather unrealistic! memtb
Good point. Having our human scent and sounds farther away from the critter, as with a LR shot, reduces the chance of the animal becoming alarmed by us at the wrong split second.
Jordan, That’s a great point.....”IF”, you are the only hunter in the area! Which, I wish were true....but is rarely the case! memtb
Well it’s scent and sound from one less human in close proximity of the animal, which still decreases the chances of it being alarmed. If you are within 100 yards of the critter, your scent and noise has a far higher chance of being detected than the random chance that some other hunter happens to be close by as well
Add to that 0.65 seconds, the average time for the brain to make the decision for the finger to pull the trigger and the finger to act....now we’re approaching that 1 second. It is not “just” bullet flight time that should be factored in! I’m “not” opposed to and will take a lengthy shot on game....but all possible factors should be recognized! The biggest factor, for those of us that are human.....we “can” screw-up! memtb
No argument from me except to say, if you do this long enough, "can screw up" goes to "will screw up" regardless of the range.
The simple truth is that we do all that we can to reduce risk of a bad hit, do all that we can to insure a good hit, and then pull the trigger and take our chances -- at any range. The miss factors to overcome increase geometrically as range increases. Fortunately the technology for long range accuracy is phenomenal, but it is not meat in the freezer till we find out if the bullet went where we intended.
I agree with almost all of that but I don't think the risk goes up geometrically with range. The main risks with long range are mis-judging the wind and the animal moving. With good judgment those risks can be minimized by not shooting in tricky winds and not shooting if the animal isn't undisturbed and stationary.
The intended purpose of this thread was NOT to discuss the ethnics of "long range" shooting but rather to explore what the members here consider to be "long range", knowing full well that each will have their own definition and that those may and often do change over time.
Perhaps a better question would have been "At what range can you reliably place our bullets n a 6" circle?"
.....assuming the animal “will not” move is rather unrealistic! memtb
It's the only way one can take a shot.
I respectfully disagree! As a somewhat extreme example.....I can except 2/10 of a second animal movement at a hundred yards. However, at lets say, with a 700 yard shot....the time will be much closer to a full second of movement. The animal, already a more difficult target at range, will move considerably more with that one second of movement, than one given 2/10 of a second movement @100 yards. We should make our shots assuming the animal will move.....it’s our decision as to how much risk and movement we are willing to except! memtb
We should make our shots assuming the animal will move.....
Sorry, maybe I'm nissing your point but but I can't agree with either the logic behind this assumption or the practicality of assuming a stationary animal will move at the shot.
As dogshooter said, a long-range shooter has time to observe the animal, see what it's doing, and wait for the right moment when it's not moving (and not likely to move) to take the shot. If he's been doing that and has decided the moment is right for the animal to stay still, why would he assume that the moment he pulls the trigger, the animal will move? I don't see the logic. I think what's missing is giving the long-range shooter credit for knowing when not to shoot.
As far as practical applications, if I'm going to shoot at a moving animal I'll be doing something to compensate for the movement----either swinging with the animal and following through for a close-in shot from offhand, or leading the animal some distance for a longer shot from a rest. If it's a long shot I'll be shooting from a rest and swinging just isn't in the cards for me so I'd have to hold a lead. I've done the former with good results but never the latter, if I have to lead an animal at long range I'm not taking that shot because I'm not that good. And there's always the chance that the animal will slow down or stop.
Maybe I'm mis-reading your post but are you saying we should assume a stationary animal will move at the shot and compensate for movement? In other words, on a short shot, swing with the animal and follow through even though it's stationary?
If a close-in animal is moving steadily it's fairly easy to get a feel for how fast it's moving, swing with it, and follow through at the same rate the animal is moving. How woudd you judge how fast to swing on an animal that's not moving? You could say the same about figuring out a lead for longer shots---if the animal is moving steadily you can observe and estimate how far the animal will move in the T.O.F. and then hold for that lead. But how would you judge that distance for an animal that's not moving?
smokepole, I probably worded it incorrectly. What I’m trying to say is.....assume the animal “may” move unexpectedly, at any time. “Not” they “will” move! I think that this should apply to any shot. IMO, the problem with “proper bullet placement” on an animal “unexpectedly” moving .... is increased exponentially with extended distances! I hope this clarifies my point......at least I understand what I’m trying to say! memtb
smokepole, I probably worded it incorrectly. What I’m trying to say is.....assume the animal “may” move unexpectedly, at any time. “Not” they “will” move! I think that this should apply to any shot. IMO, the problem with “proper bullet placement” on an animal “unexpectedly” moving .... is increased exponentially with extended distances! I hope this clarifies my point......at least I understand what I’m trying to say! memtb
Thannks. You're saying "assume the animal might move, and decide to shoot/not shoot accordingly." That's a personal choice and really none of my business if you or anyone else decides not to shoot for that reason. Not taking a shot is almost never a bad decision.
But I do have a problem with anyone who translates that personal choice to everyone else and says that 100% of 600+ yard shots are "unethical." Because it just ain't so.
I agree! There is not a definitive, one size fits all answer! Last season, I passed on a very doable shot, it would have been my longest on a game animal...but wasn’t a DRT guarantee! Given the location and time of day....”discretion was the better part of valor”! Had it been at 10:00 am in stead of 30 minutes to dark.....I’d have taken the shot! The present conditions, dictate the actions taken! memtb
Before you completely act the fool, let me give you a tip. There are people out there that can do things you or I can't, and there always will be. Some can hit a 100mph fast ball, while all you would know about it is the slap of the ball into the catchers mitt. Some can play golf on the pro level and comparatively you can only do mediocore on the silly golf range. Some can shoot and obviously as of now you are not on their level.
This is so true, in my experience and from watching these 'discussions' over the years. It seems to be human nature for guys to take their own limitations and abilities, use that to construct their definition of what is 'ethical', and then hold their ethics up as the gold standard that all hunters should adhere to.
As a relative newcomer to LR shooting- I've only been practicing it seriously, and occasionally competing in practical precision matches, for 4-5 years- one thing that immediately jumped out at me was the highly varied skill sets. And the guys at the top of the heap were far better than I'd imagined was even possible. There are lots of highly practiced, gifted shooters for who 600 yards/meters, and beyond, is a chip shot. Even in a stressful, fast paced enviroment, from akward positions, on small targets. I'm not saying everyone is at, or can even reach those levels. But there are lots who can and do. Who's to say where another should draw the line?
.....assuming the animal “will not” move is rather unrealistic! memtb
It's the only way one can take a shot.
I respectfully disagree! As a somewhat extreme example.....I can except 2/10 of a second animal movement at a hundred yards. However, at lets say, with a 700 yard shot....the time will be much closer to a full second of movement. The animal, already a more difficult target at range, will move considerably more with that one second of movement, than one given 2/10 of a second movement @100 yards. We should make our shots assuming the animal will move.....it’s our decision as to how much risk and movement we are willing to except! memtb
You ssume they will move and others of us will assume we will get the shot INTO the vitals before the game moves.
.....assuming the animal “will not” move is rather unrealistic! memtb
It's the only way one can take a shot.
I respectfully disagree! As a somewhat extreme example.....I can except 2/10 of a second animal movement at a hundred yards. However, at lets say, with a 700 yard shot....the time will be much closer to a full second of movement. The animal, already a more difficult target at range, will move considerably more with that one second of movement, than one given 2/10 of a second movement @100 yards. We should make our shots assuming the animal will move.....it’s our decision as to how much risk and movement we are willing to except! memtb
You ssume they will move and others of us will assume we will get the shot INTO the vitals before the game moves.
I guess that I’ve made this too complicated! I try to plan for a worst case scenario! memtb
.....assuming the animal “will not” move is rather unrealistic! memtb
It's the only way one can take a shot.
I respectfully disagree! As a somewhat extreme example.....I can except 2/10 of a second animal movement at a hundred yards. However, at lets say, with a 700 yard shot....the time will be much closer to a full second of movement. The animal, already a more difficult target at range, will move considerably more with that one second of movement, than one given 2/10 of a second movement @100 yards. We should make our shots assuming the animal will move.....it’s our decision as to how much risk and movement we are willing to except! memtb
You ssume they will move and others of us will assume we will get the shot INTO the vitals before the game moves.
I guess that I’ve made this too complicated! I try to plan for a worst case scenario! memtb
Hunters are by nature more optimistic than "worst case scenario." At the range where I test there is a sign that says, "Our first priority is safety." I say, "Then stay home and watch others on TV whose first priority is to enjoy life."
"Long Range" for me depends on the day and the conditions. I shoot defenseless steel plates pretty regularly out to 700 and occasionally 1000. Some days I forget to bring my good eyeballs, but I can usually hold 6" or better at 600. I figure this will help me make a clean shot on game out to 500 or 600 which with good conditions is about my personal limit. Last year I passed on 2 nice mulies, both in the 160 class +-. The first stopped to look back at about 510 then the next day the second one stopped at 480. Both days there was about a 20mph crosswind. I'm from the south and don't normally deal with the kind of wind you get out west so I never even touched the trigger. Ended up taking mine at 210 yards a couple of days later.
At the range, I've shot next to guys who would definitely be able to take ethical shots at a thousand and possibly a bit beyond. 2 of these guys don't like shooting anything at less than 500 and have the trophies to back it up (not that they're too stuck up to pull the trigger on a 180 buck standing broadside at 50). This is far beyond my comfort level, but if I was hunting with either of them and they had a nice 6x6 bull in the crosshairs at 800+ I'd start checking my knife to make sure it was sharp.
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. was so very glad to find him.
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