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Posted By: Redleg172 Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/06/20
I have never been a long range shooter, I don't think I've killed big game past 150 yards. I want to build a semi-custom rifle to start shooting longer ranges and kill a few groundhogs here in PA. I will likely never shoot at a groundhog past 4-500 yards but would like to stretch out to 700-1000 yards on paper/gongs for the experience. I would also like to keep ammunition cost and recoil as low as possible and not get overly complicated forming cases or wildcatting.

My original thought was a 22-250 with a fast twist barrel (1:8ish) to shoot heavier bullets. Maybe an AI. I also considered a 243 with a standard twist and 90-100 grainers. Of course now everyone is 6.5 Creed happy. What are some other options? What would you pick?
Are you a reloader? Practicing to become proficient at longer ranges will eat up quite a bit of ammo, so take that into consideration as well. Of the 2 choices you listed I'd go with the 243. Components are readily available, and reasonably priced. If you don't reload, there's lots of choices for factory ammo. I'd also look into the 308, barrel life is excellent and ammo/components are also readily available and relatively inexpensive.

I'm sure you're going to get lots of replies and probably the same amount of caliber selections.

For lower recoil and wind bucking the 6 Creed and 6 dasher are what most of the 700-1,000 shooting (PRS Guys) are using... the 6.5 kicked just a bit more with a break than they wanted.

For up to 600 a very fast spinning 22 is really hard to beat kick wise, and wind bucking wise... so you were right on that.
700-1k... a 6 is better, and if it’s windy a fast 7mm is better as well (7 SAUM is what the F class guys have been winning with because of that).

One other thing you need to think about is good bullets... they really come into play at longer ranges, and 6mm has more of those than the rest so I’d say go with a 6mm.
The only problem with the creed is how fast it will eat the throat, ~1,500 rounds or less.

I did pick the 6 creed myself to start shooting at longer ranges because the speed helps you get in front of wind.

You’ll need a good scope as well so don’t forget that... if you shoot PRS you’ll need a ballistic calc tool also.
Posted By: atse Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/06/20
6 creed, or a fast twist 243. The former is a better design. Both give great accuracy, and lots of bullet choices.105 Berger hybrids are tough to beat.
Posted By: TX35W Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/06/20
Don't reinvent the wheel. 6.5 creed or 6 creed.

308 is fine choice as it used to be the cheapest long range factory ammo you could get (M118LR or 7.62 175 GMM), brass is cheap and easy to find, but BCs are from a different era unless you want a lot more recoil and are definitely going to load your own.

Cheapest option is .223 with 1/8 or 1/7 and buying loaded 77gr ammo of various flavors.

You're about to get into a very expensive hobby that you can't get good at with out a high round count. Once you shoot a while it becomes hilarious watching people come to the range with a ton of expensive gear and not be able to hit a 500 yard gong. It's the Indian rather than the arrow.

I would try to make life as easy as possible on the gear side. If you want to get good at this, focus on learning the skills rather than doing a deep dive into the gear. It might be wise to just buy a Tikka or Savage in 6.5 or 6 creed and just start shooting right away. Once you've shot the throat out of a barrel and actually know what you want, then build your custom rifle.
Posted By: Tim_K Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/06/20
You could also look at .223 AI. It requires fireforming, but that's as simple as loading up a regular .223 round and letting it rip. You'll get another 100-150 fps. Still cheap to load and shoot, and barrel life is reported to still be excellent.
In .22, I'd do a 1:8 twist .220 Swift AI

In .24 , I'd likely do a 6-'06
Posted By: Full3r Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/07/20
Just working on the same deal. Buddy and I are both building rem 700s in 223. 20” tube with 1:8 twist to run suppressed. Plan I’m running 75-77 grain bullets. Bought barrels that were short chambered and we finished out ourselves. Like another poster said this can be an expensive path.

We planned on building cheap to practice with our hunting rifles. But you start “wondering” if something might be BBC a little better. Easy to get a lot of money in.

Also good advice to buy a tikka or savage or Remington and shoot the snot out of it and think of what you really want. Don’t be afraid to find ranges or matches to stop and check stuff out. We’ve found most guys are pretty decent if ya just ask. Who doesn’t like showing off their toys.

Either way it money and time better spent than shooting than sitting in a bar or chasing women.

David
There's no ground hogs around here. But I got a 223 and 243. Both in standard hunting configuration and a relatively small investment. I'll give them a try at 700 in a couple of weeks

I'd like to upgrade the 223 to a .223AI so the brass would last longer. And while I'm at it, go to an 8 twist. But there's lots of good factory .223 ammo designed for long range. I'm just getting my toes wet with loading for the .223, so it may be a while before I switch to .223AI.

If you're building your own, you can pick your poison. But to get started cheap, a Ruger American Predator reamed to AI and put in a laminated stock might fit the bill without being as cumbersome as a varmint rifle.
And I believe the .223 would have a much longer barrel life than most other rifles that might meet your criteria, unless you were willing to move up to a 6.5 chambering.

A 22-250 certainly shoots flatter than any .223 if you don't mind the barrel not lasting as long. This with an 8 twist is probably a really good choice if you reload. I don't know if they've started producing factory ammo with the long bullets yet.

My 243 is far from a competition rifle. It's a lightweight with moderate 9.25 twist that I'm hoping will shoot the shorter 105's accurately for the 700 yard range.
But again, if your building your own, the skies the limit.
https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017...en-uses-243-win-for-long-range-shooting/
That article is two and a half years old. But the 6mm Creedmoor was designed in 2009.

Of course, the 6 Creed is the easy button with all factory rifles set up to shoot the long range boxed ammo available for it. But I haven't seen them or ammo offered locally.
Redleg, you are in Pa. Not sure where, but if you want to meet some long range shooters, Ridgeway has a shooting event that has targets up to 1000 yards.. It is a Varmint shoot with steel cutouts of various varmints.. I attended one, not to shoot but look.. It was awesome.. Many smaller calibers in current use... When I got interested in long range stuff many years ago, the .300's and 7mm Mags ruled with a few 6.5-300's... The guys and gals are super friendly and you will see all kinds of long range rifles and stuff to go along with the shooting.. It would be worth your time to pay a visit... I hope to get up there this summer, if I get back in that country and have time.. Good luck..
Here's another article about John Whiddon that I found interesting. Talks about how he uses a low neck tension and seats bullets way out, allowing them to "soft seat" themselves into the rifling.
https://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/john-whidden-shares-championship-secrets/
.223 with 6" twist shooting the 88 ELD at 2600 would be a great learning tool.
223 with 75s or heavier.
Posted By: Dre Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/07/20
Disclaimer, I don’t have any experience shooting competition or Custom builds.
But I did stay at Holliday inn and I know you said no 6.5
On serious note I bit the bullet this last summer and got a 6.5. I reload and found a load my tikka likes.
The other weekend I was out and found a gong set up at 850 yard or so I let her rip and even though I didn’t connect 100% of the time. I was right there.
For the price of ammo and availability is strongly suggest looking at the 6.5 for hunting and gongs
I think a fast twist 22-250 would be worth consideration.
Originally Posted by Dre
Disclaimer, I don’t have any experience shooting competition or Custom builds.
But I did stay at Holliday inn and I know you said no 6.5
On serious note I bit the bullet this last summer and got a 6.5. I reload and found a load my tikka likes.
The other weekend I was out and found a gong set up at 850 yard or so I let her rip and even though I didn’t connect 100% of the time. I was right there.
For the price of ammo and availability is strongly suggest looking at the 6.5 for hunting and gongs


Dre, come on. He said no 6.5's... grin
Posted By: dave7mm Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/07/20
6.5x47 Lapua.
38.5g of Varget with a 123g to 500 yards.
40g of VV 550 with a 140g to 1000 yards.
Get a good rangefinder.
Thank me later.
dave
Thanks for all of the great answers - you confirmed what I was thinking and caused me to consider some other options. I'm not opposed to a 6.5 if that is the best option. After a little more research, I definitely like the 6mm Creed. I do reload so that isn't an issue.

I'm keeping my eyes open for a lightly used 22-250 or 243 in varmint configuration (I would love a 700 VLS) so I can start shooting factory and then upgrade when it's shot out but he prices are crazy around here for well used guns. I've only just started the build sheet for this thing so that will be another project once I decide on caliber.
If you reload, look at 6x47 Lapua, if not 6 creed. Both are very similar, more than enough for chucks, more than adequate for deer, and will get you to 1k paper punching without a problem. Where in PA are you located?
I'm in Carlisle, south central just west of Harrisburg. I just moved here this summer with the Army and am trying to find something unique to do and shooting groundhogs seems pretty popular around here.
Posted By: beretzs Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/07/20
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
.223 with 6" twist shooting the 88 ELD at 2600 would be a great learning tool.


I’d say! That’ll teach a ton of skills and still fetch bucks well. I’d bet they bullet is excellent started out at that speed.
Long barrel life, cheap to shoot, low recoil, and truly excellent aerodynamic performance WRT the first few factors. Easy choice for someone getting into the LR game and wanting to learn.
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Long barrel life, cheap to shoot, low recoil, and truly excellent aerodynamic performance WRT the first few factors. Easy choice for someone getting into the LR game and wanting to learn.


Is that referencing the .223 with 6" twist or something else?
Posted By: Filaman Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/07/20
.250 Savage with a 115 Grain Ballistic Tip would be a killer of game and not much recoil. A .250 Savage kills way out of its league. What's not to love?
Originally Posted by TX35W
Don't reinvent the wheel. 6.5 creed or 6 creed.


This. If you're just starting out, keep it simple and make use of the enormous and current knowledge base on long range shooting with these cartridges. There are very good reasons these are popular for long distance shooting right now, and there's a lot of good information easily available, so no reason to try to do anything special or different. You don't need a custom rifle either, unless you just want to.

The easy button is a Ruger Precision Rifle in one of the two cartridges above. Then just invest in all the other peripheral gear (optics, rangefinder, bipod & bags, shooting mat, etc) and get to shooting.
Originally Posted by Redleg172
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Long barrel life, cheap to shoot, low recoil, and truly excellent aerodynamic performance WRT the first few factors. Easy choice for someone getting into the LR game and wanting to learn.


Is that referencing the .223 with 6" twist or something else?

Yes, the .223.
You said ammo cost and recoil as low as possible. That's a .223
1-8” .223 with 75 ELDM at 2934 fps. Kills varmints at 650, puts holes in paper past 1000, incredibly economical.




P
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
1-8” .223 with 75 ELDM at 2934 fps. Kills varmints at 650, puts holes in paper past 1000, incredibly economical.




P

There’s zero reason not to go faster twist and shoot 88’s, unless looking for a factory rifle.
Posted By: colodog Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/08/20
6mmBR
Excellent brass, bullets, and factory ammo.
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
1-8” .223 with 75 ELDM at 2934 fps. Kills varmints at 650, puts holes in paper past 1000, incredibly economical.




P

There’s zero reason not to go faster twist and shoot 88’s, unless looking for a factory rifle.

Would you be mostly limited to that one bullet if your chamber/throat was designed to optimize the shape of the 88?

And what about jacket performance with a 1 in 6 twist? Or would the .223 not push them fast enough for that to be a concern?
Posted By: beretzs Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/08/20
Originally Posted by DollarShort
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
1-8” .223 with 75 ELDM at 2934 fps. Kills varmints at 650, puts holes in paper past 1000, incredibly economical.




P

There’s zero reason not to go faster twist and shoot 88’s, unless looking for a factory rifle.

Would you be mostly limited to that one bullet if your chamber/throat was designed to optimize the shape of the 88?

And what about jacket performance with a 1 in 6 twist? Or would the .223 not push them fast enough for that to be a concern?


We’ve been shooting 50-90’s in 1-7’s for years. I haven’t had anything fly apart. Heard the lighter skinned Hornady SXS won’t hold up but the rest has been fine.
Posted By: Dude270 Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/08/20
Jordan, I'm curious why you think the 88 grain eld at 2600 is superior to the 75 at 2900+. Would you feel the same way if the make range was say 600 to 700 yards?

I've shot a lot of 75s but not many of the 88s and I'm curious

Thanks
Originally Posted by DollarShort
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by Pharmseller
1-8” .223 with 75 ELDM at 2934 fps. Kills varmints at 650, puts holes in paper past 1000, incredibly economical.




P

There’s zero reason not to go faster twist and shoot 88’s, unless looking for a factory rifle.

Would you be mostly limited to that one bullet if your chamber/throat was designed to optimize the shape of the 88?

And what about jacket performance with a 1 in 6 twist? Or would the .223 not push them fast enough for that to be a concern?

Not at all. I’ve shot plenty of light .224 bullets in fast twist barrels, and good (well-balanced) bullets shoot very well. Most any shorter bullet with a steeper ogive will reach the lands if you throat for the 88.

Hornady recommends a minimum of a 1:7 twist for the 88, and according to the Berger stability calculator the bullet is marginally stable when launched at 2600 fps at sea level and 0F, at that. To achieve super-stability and maximize the BC value, a 6” twist is needed. JBM says a 7” twist barely gets to an SG of 1.5 in those atmospherics, but I’ve never been one to skimp on twist, leaning towards faster instead of slower.

I don’t think the .223 is pushing the 88 fast enough for jacket integrity to be a concern with a 6” twist. A bunch of people are shooting them out of 7” .22 Creedmoors with no problems.
Originally Posted by Dude270
Jordan, I'm curious why you think the 88 grain eld at 2600 is superior to the 75 at 2900+. Would you feel the same way if the make range was say 600 to 700 yards?

I've shot a lot of 75s but not many of the 88s and I'm curious

Thanks

The 75 ELD is a phenomenal bullet, but the 88 offer all the goodness of the 75 and more. Even at 500 the 88 already drifts a bit less in the wind and has cut the initial velocity difference in half. Both bullets are going fast enough to expand on flesh past 700 yards, and the 88’s advantage in wind drift and velocity retention only goes up as the distance stretches out. If your max range is 600 or 700, then the difference between the two isn’t huge unless the wind is really whistling.
Can you load the 88s in a 223 and fit it in a steel AR mag?
Posted By: aalf Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/09/20

Buy this, shooting it till it's dead, then re-barrel:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...on-700-r5-stainless-rifle-223-rem#UNREAD
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
.223 with 6" twist shooting the 88 ELD at 2600 would be a great learning tool.

Hey Jordan, are there any factory rifles of which you are aware providing a 1 in 6 twist; or, is it required to purchase such from a barrel manufacturer? Thanks in advance.
Originally Posted by David_Walter
Can you load the 88s in a 223 and fit it in a steel AR mag?

Practically speaking, no.
Originally Posted by TheBigSky
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
.223 with 6" twist shooting the 88 ELD at 2600 would be a great learning tool.

Hey Jordan, are there any factory rifles of which you are aware providing a 1 in 6 twist; or, is it required to purchase such from a barrel manufacturer? Thanks in advance.

No, sir. It’s a custom barrel proposition.
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by TheBigSky
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
.223 with 6" twist shooting the 88 ELD at 2600 would be a great learning tool.

Hey Jordan, are there any factory rifles of which you are aware providing a 1 in 6 twist; or, is it required to purchase such from a barrel manufacturer? Thanks in advance.

No, sir. It’s a custom barrel proposition.

I thought so. Thanks much.
Originally Posted by colodog
6mmBR
Excellent brass, bullets, and factory ammo.

while I am a rem 700/Krieger guy. I do not have a savage. you could start right away with a savage 6mmbr or a 22-250 with an 8 twist. I bet either will do what you need
Posted By: fishnut Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 03/09/20
a couple years ago I took an old shot out .243 and just re barreled it in an 8 twist .243 (X-caliber) to shoot the 108 gr ELDMs for varmints and to dabble in the long range game. I put an Athlon Argos BTR 6-24x on cuz I didn't want to sale a kidney to glass a gun that was really just built to play around with and didn't really plan on getting to wound up in the long range stuff. Bottom line is it shoots better than I had hoped by a long shot. That ELDM does everything I want to do on things from Prairie dogs to Coyotes and can ring a gong at 1000 with regularity. I went that way just cuz I didn't want to join the creed band wagon and I had all the reloading stuff for .243 including 1000 pieces of brass. It was all done on a half assed budget and was a crap load of fun.
Posted By: Clarkm Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 03/10/20
If you have no skill and no practice time, follow me:

Great groups at 50 yards 22LR
Great groups at 200 yards, 223, 6mmBR, and 250 Savage
Great groups at 500 yards, 6.5-06, 280AI, 7mmRM

There are guys who practice and can dope the wind....but you could get a pool cue and win money at pool too.... or buy a guitar and be a rock star.
Not sure what you're leaning towards now. You mentioned a 700vls in 22-250.


Look for an SPS Varmint. I bought one when they came out with a similar train of thought. Learn to shoot accurately and build from it as I grow. Eventually have the action work done and rebarreled and probably a 6-6.5 flavor. Kinda got out on the back burner and getting back to it now. That gun absolutely shoots out of the box with the crappy green plastic stock. When I was shooting regular 5 shot groups were covered by a dime. Had some ridiculous 1 ragged hole 3 shot groups. Groundhogs under 250 didn't stand much chance (not an easy task for most guys in PA lol). At my peak, I was nailing them out to 350. Biggest issue for me was my longest range was 200yds. I've since moved and have a 400yd range within a couple minutes and longer in the area...



The SPS Varmint can be found for under 500. I've seen a couple on here recently. I think a 22-250 and a 308 real recently. Good glass, trigger work or replaced, eventually a stock of your liking and you'll have a heck of a foundation.
Posted By: rost495 Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 03/11/20
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
.223 with 6" twist shooting the 88 ELD at 2600 would be a great learning tool.

Does it need a full 6 twist? 90s stabilized in a 20 inch tube with 6.5 twists. That said maybe I'm lucky, I have a bolt gun tube maybe a hart, but a good name in 6 twist and had no clue what to use it for. Maybe you answered that itch....
Posted By: rost495 Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 03/11/20
And me... I still have this. bag of donated 6mmRem/224 necked down. New folks call it TTH I think.... but its been around way before that stupid azz name...worked well on the 1000 yard line so many years ago when 80s where new...
A good .22-250 is all you need..
I have a friend that goes out west to shoot prairie dogs. He uses a .243 AI with a fast twist barrel so he can shoot 105 grain bullets. They kill at 800+ yards with ease.
Posted By: pete53 Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 03/14/20
if your not a handloader get a 223 Rem. fast twist barrel ,75 grain and higher bullets.

if you are a handloader get a 6 B.R. fast twist barrel shoot higher grain target bullets.

both of these cartridges have very little recoil but can still get the job done at long distance shooting.good luck,Pete53
Posted By: ba_50 Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 12/28/21
Nobody has recommended a decent .22 rimfire with say an swfa 10x scope. You will save a lot of money this way when it comes to learning to shoot in the wind and adjusting scope turrents. I have a Savage 110 tactical in 6c and still shoot a lot of rimfire ammo.
6mm Arc has recently been my do it all centerfire in a land where a whitetail would be the biggest game pursued. If you are a non reloader 223 7 twist could get you your distance suggested. Ammo & or components is a worth while consideration in spades these days.
Posted By: colodog Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 12/31/21
Take a look at "The Varmint Page" at 6mmbr.com,
Link Here

A 6mm be it a 243 win or the 6mm Creedmoor in 8 twist will serve your needs well.
Posted By: ol_mike Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 01/19/22
Originally Posted by Redleg172
I have never been a long range shooter, I don't think I've killed big game past 150 yards. I want to build a semi-custom rifle to start shooting longer ranges and kill a few groundhogs here in PA. I will likely never shoot at a groundhog past 4-500 yards but would like to stretch out to 700-1000 yards on paper/gongs for the experience. I would also like to keep ammunition cost and recoil as low as possible and not get overly complicated forming cases or wildcatting.

My original thought was a 22-250 with a fast twist barrel (1:8ish) to shoot heavier bullets. Maybe an AI. I also considered a 243 with a standard twist and 90-100 grainers. Of course now everyone is 6.5 Creed happy. What are some other options? What would you pick?


What do you hunt with now?

I've known a few people who wanted to get into LR shooting/hunting but were overwhelmed at the cost. Told them to reconfigure what you already have, one guy Kelly had a plain Rem. 700 270win., I had 50 nosler cases left over, loaded him up some 150gr. BTSP Sierras. He bought a Super Sniper 10X, Harris swivel bipod, and an entry level 600 yard bushnell rangefinder and had a blast. He and his Dad immediately took up handloading and got all rigged out to shoot out to several hundred yards.
But we all know there's NOTHING wrong with buying a new rifle.
The 223rem., 6tw. barrel sounds perfect.

I met a guy who shot a 30-30 at 500+ yards and loved the challenge. He flagged me down one day and told me of dragging a road-killed deer to his target area and killing a coyote at 500-510 yards, one shot kill.
Used some Flex-tip bullet.
Posted By: elkmen1 Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/15/22
As pointed out earlier, the .308 Winchester ammo is very available, and can be had most anywhere at decent prices. Many VERY accurate rifles have been produced in that cartridge
Posted By: CGPAUL Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/15/22
+1...good advice. If you have a 700 in any caliber, up grades and add-ons` are non stop.
2 year old post.
What did the OP decide on?
Hopefully he took the great advice given and wound up with a 1-8 Tikka CTR in .223 and a bunch of 88’s before they became hard to get
Posted By: 257Bob Re: Beginner Caliber Selection - 02/28/22
if you ever think you might use it on deer sized game, I'd consider the 6mm Creedmoor, I have one and it's my favorite rifle to shoot. Mine is a Christensen Arms with a 24" #4 steel barrel with an Area 419 Hellfire brake, McMillan Game Scout stock with Hawkins M5 DBM. Ammo is generally easier to get (all things considered these days) and that's important if you want to shoot much.
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