Eleven + years back, I had my mom's inheritance and was able to buy a rifle I could only dream off. It has been posted here on the CF numerous times. As the seller put it, "The wood to metal fit is ungodly tight!". So very true..... Any way, I was out working on a new Barnes Bullets 101 gr LRX load and it consistently puts the first two shots close together and the 3rd approximately 3.5 times larger. It does this with other bullets as well. As the barrel heats up, the 3rd shot opens the group. I let the barrel cool all the way to out door temps between groups. Today....45 F. Thursday, 25 F. Same thing. The load it liked today will put the first two shots .5" to .6" apart with the 3rd shot going out to 2.2" to 2.4". Someone mentioned I should free float the barrel. Here I am, asking the Custom Rifle members your opinions on such an undertaking; do it....don't do it......run the simple business card trick under the front action screw?.......Live with it as a 2-shot rifle? Who would be a great candidate to take on such a potential task? Am I missing anything? Am I not asking the right questions?

Your thoughtful comments and opinions would be appreciated!

Alan

Leave that beautiful rifle as it is. Buy a different rifle that will group well.

Do you plan to hunt with it?
If so when do you recall that when hunting you needed a 3rd shot?
If you needed a 3rd shot would it have made a difference?

If it were me just to satisfy my curiousity I would try the business card free-float, if it shot good 3-shot groups then hunt it that way, if not send it to someone who cares more about eye-candy then accuracy. But I would not mess with it other than that, it is a beautiful rifle and anything you do to that is not reversible will devalue it.

drover

MNR Custom. Matt will free float and make sure it shoots the way it should.

Beautiful rifle Alan. Good luck with your search. I'm sure if you find the right person to do the work, it will not change the appearance too much. Except for a proper freefloat. If the rifle needs to be glass bedded at that time, you may want to have that work done as well... A custom rifle like that should be shooting 1/2 moa groups. But you already know that...

A beautiful rifle is only beautiful if it shoots good. Have a good ‘smith bed it.

ETA….it IS a beautiful rifle btw. 👍

Start low, go slow. Don’t start anything you don’t have the tools or skills to finish.

Couldn't tell from your OP; if you fire two, let it cool completely, then fire two more, does the second pair stay tight with the first? If that was the case, I could live with it.

I have a very nice FN sporter by Paul Morton, the one-handed of San Antonio, TX, with pretty much all the goodies. I sorted out the funky scope bases, mounted a nice M8 4X, and dialed it in with some random handloads. Shoots pretty well, and while I plan to load up a small batch just for it, I’m not going down the rabbit hole trying to make it a bench gun. If it was one I’d had built myself, I’d look at it differently.

That’s a very nice rifle you have there, BTW.

Thank you for the responses, so far. I'm heavily leaning towards leaving it as is. I have hunted with it. It's a fair weather gun; pleasant or snowing but never in the rain. I, my son and step son have taken mule deer. I also took a cow elk. All the deer were single rounds kills. The cow, as long as she was on her feet, I kept putting 115 BT's into her. All 3 bullets killed her, breaking humerus and ribs, complete pass throughs, but I didn't want a Faux Pas on my hands. She only went 20'. She was 220 yds distant. Some years back I had Charley Santoni, who has worked on several guns for me, look it over. IIRC, he said it was the most beautiful rifle he'd ever laid hands on. Understandably, he does not want me to touch it. Maybe someday, if he's willing, i'll have D'Arcy Echols look at it.

I will keep playing with it. It quite enjoyable to look at, handle and shoot. Maybe just learn to make sure I never need more than 2 shots!

Alan

This guy might be able to help if you change your mind- A.M. Little Bespoke Gunmakers, LLC...
He has one of mine and I'll be sending him another soon. Absolutely beautiful work.

There was some famous gun writer that claimed he favored one shot groups on hunting rifles. On successive days he would shoot one or two shots at the same target, in just a few days, he had some idea of what the rifle capable of in real world hunting situation. I think there is some merit to his reasoning. I personally tried it with a pre-war custom German 9.3 that recoiled enough to make me doubt my bench ability. Sure enough, my week long group was a little better than my one session group. Which is not a valid qualifier, but, it gave me the confidence to hunt with a fine old rifle, tight bedded, as made in 1927. And, I don't know if I've just been lucky, but in over a half century of hunting I can only remember of two instances that required more than one shot.

Having killed 3 and four deer at once, I can say a 3" shooter would have done as well. I wouldn't mess with it.

What did the builder say? Passed on?

Good decision IMO. It seems to work just fine as is.

drover

https://ewc.wy.edu/academic-services/majors/gunsmithing/gunsmithing-program-faculty/

I’d have to try a different scope on there. Maybe you already did.

GSSP, I have a Model 70 Classic that I bought new in the 90's (New Haven gun) and it would do similar to what yours is doing. Well, I posted this on the Gunwriters forum few days. A guy on You Tube has a video I found some time back...."Floating a Rifle Barrel-Synthetic Stock" He took a detergent jug and cut a piece to fit under the front and rear action screws and then was able to slide a dollar bill up to the action. It tightened up my groups and now will shoot half inch group every session. Could not believe it. Pull it up and look at how he does it...might help.

How many different bullets have you tried with your rifle?

I have a Ruger #1V in .25-06 (not near the pedigree of your rifle) that I worked up a load in using the 100gr SGK. This rifle would regularly shoot this load about 0.75" @ 100yds.

A season later, I decided to swap bullets (110gr Sierra TGK) and I also upgraded scopes. At the range, I struggled with a similar issue as you describe...the first two shots were touching, or nearly so, and the third was 3-3.5" left. More shots carried on with the same theme.

I was assuming I had a loose screw somewhere and went over the entire rifle...everything was snug. I started suspecting the new scope. By chance, I had some of the old ammo onhand. With a hot barrel, it put my previous 100gr SGK load into a triangular group just under an inch @ 100yds.

By design, this rifle has some significant contact between the forearm and barrel.

I don't think I would start removing wood on that rifle. Maybe you just haven't found "THE" bullet yet?

Have not talked to Glen. This post was me "kicking tires".

Alan

Thank you for that. Last I talked to him was probably 10 yrs back.

Alan

Correct. I have.

I've run 100 gr E-Tips. After about 400 with different powders, cases, COAL, etc. I gave up. Charley Santoni called this rifle a "Temperamental Whore", when he had his hands on it. 100 gr BT. 115 gr and 120 PT. It likes the 120. Carried it with me on a Utah spike elk hunt. No joy! Hated the 110 Accubond....except for one IMR 4350 powder charge. 100 Sierra SPT BT; 4"-6" groups. Did some initial work ups on the 100 gr Hornady SP but never finished the project. Charley turned me onto the 115 BT with IMR 4831 and BINGO! It really likes that bullet and powder. I finally killed a few deer as did my son and step son's who took their first deer with it. I even put those 3 into that cow at 220 yds. Great bullet performance. I've also played a bit with the 115 Berger and Barnes, 80 TTSX, 110 ELD-X. I wish Hornady made the 87 gr SP still. The rifle loves that bullet with Varget or H4350.

Alas, I really want/need to get the 100 TTSX or 101 LRX to work. Barnes is my employer. Ran a primer test today and the Fed 210 showed great promise with the 2nd shot inside the 1st shot and the 3rd 1.25" off to the right. Single digit ES for the 3 shots. Jury is still out.

Alan

I'd definitely say you have run the gamut. So much for my $0.02 of suggestion.

Beyond the bullets, I'd say your plan to have a master gunsmith inspect at some point is probably sound...or learn to live with the way it shoots and continue killing game.

It’s not a varmint rifle. Sight in for the 2 shots and quit worrying about it

Rule of thumb in the 2 in, 1 out seat bullet further out. I would seat that 101 lrx out in .005 increments. I almost guarantee you, you will bring that 3rd bullet in with the other two. How far off the lands are you with that 101 lrx?

So you seat closer to the rifling when you have two close and one out some?

Both my 257 Roberts, this custom and a Kimber 84M Montana were at the range 3 days this past 4 day weekend. I ran a COAL test and a primer test. It liked the final .050" off the lands and Fed 210 primers. ES was 8 and SD was 4. First two shots were .13" with the 3rd opening the group to 1.3". The best this rifle has done with the bullet/powder combination. Next will be a verification test where I will go add one shot at a time to a single group, either an hour apart or days apart; thus the barrel will be absolutely cold before the next shot.

Alan

Was the batch loaded 0.050" off the lands the furthest jump you tested?

If so, it may be worth testing increases in jump. Several accounts here that cite best accuracy as much as 0.100" of jump.

As long as I have been hanging around here, I always remember everyone saying to seat deeper when you are getting "2 in, 1 out" groups.

Everyone else always followed that up with "what does a 5 shot group look like?"

I tested 50, 75, 100, 125 and 150 off the lands. Could have gone further but the groups were getting progressively worse.

Alan

I'd say you covered all bases!

I do this stuff professionally.....for a living.

Alan

Alan

Just curious. Have you tested closer to the lands? Say .010 off or even .020? I know general rule with a mono is far off the lands but I’ve had good results closer. Especially with a sleeker profile mono like an LRX.

Beautiful rifles gentlemen !!

RGRX what caliber?

I have in other calibers with other bullets and have found, personally, it's never worked.....so far!

Alan

Free float the entire barrel back to the receiver. The barrel is touching somewhere so as it heats up the stock puts pressure on the barrel. Look at the forearm the opposite direction from the bullet shift……
To test: fire three shots. Wait at least five minutes between shots. See if the third shot still moves. If it doesn’t, then it’s the barrel channel.

I will give it a try.

I wait 3 days and 5 hours between each shot. That way the barrel is nice and cold.

I would not open the barrel channel on that beautiful stock. Instead, I would keep working on loads. I have a custom .257 Robert's with tight bedding like yours that shoots extremely well with several different loads. If nothing else works, I would think about a second, synthetic stock.

All I know if spent a bunch of coin on a rifle and it shot like chit I take that barrel shove it up whoever built its ass.

I do especially with rifles with a bunch of freebore. My model 70 in a 375 H&H is one. I have buddies who will increase the powder charge to tighten up the group. The 6.5 Swede I have is another with a ton of freebore. I’m probably doing it wrong but it’s worked for me so far.

"Tight" bedding is fine, when done right. His rifle is exhibiting signs of a stressed barrel or action. As john boy was alluding to in his post. Also, for those of you that don't know this, the op is a competitive shooter (from what I remember) and also works for the Barnes bullet company. So the inaccuracy may be bothering him more than he is letting on. We all know this rifle is a beautiful piece of craftsmanship. The builder of this rifle may not be with us anymore, hence the reason he is not sending it back to him??? If it were mine, I'd be a little apprehensive to send it off to just anyone. Maybe a select few, but that is it. I wouldn't even want to work on it myself and that would be a first.. A rifle that beautiful deserves to be done right. As I said in my first post, a custom like that should shoot very well. The op probably wouldn't have posted the question, had he not felt it should shoot better. Also, from my experience, a rifle that shoots that poorly, is going to be a real headache. Regardless of what other loads you try. I'm also thinking if Alan hasn't rung it out by now, it likely is not going to ever shoot to its full potential because something is stressed and causing the inaccuracy.. Best of luck to GSSP.

John, you may have it backwards buddy. I've heard you say seat them further from the lands. That is the general rule of thumb. However, I bet that is not the issue with this rifle. GSSP is a pretty good hand loader. I'd bet he's tried a lot of the trick moves already, that's the reason he's asking us.... Deep down, he knows what he really needs to do..

I probably do, with cup and core I start off close to the lands.005-.010 i for the most part get a triangle group so I usually end up seating deeper (That’s what she said) because I can’t go further out. Only time I had 2 in 1 out was with mono bullets. Which I very rarely mess with. So that’s why I’m probably all kinds of ph ucked up. But I know switching primers can bring that straggler in as well. Or upping the charge by few tenths of a grain.

I've followed this thread all the way through so will add my $0.02. We have some givens here: 1. The rifle is a beautifully crafted rifle. I seriously doubt that a builder gets that far along in the trade without knowing how to build a rifle that shoots as good as it looks. 2. The OP is known to several here as a serious competitive shooter and, as well, works for Barnes which doesn't guarantee, but would strongly suggest, that he is pretty much immersed in the world of shooting/accuracy and rifles in general. 3. The preceding facts almost guarantee that there's a problem that's not going to be one of the common and very obvious problems that keep a rifle from shooting well. I strongly suspect that somewhere in the barrel-making process, something untoward happened that induced internal stresses in the barrel so that, as a couple of shots warm it up, it starts to distort. I have a rifle that demonstrates the same problem. It will put the first two on top of each other and, after that, the shots start walking off and spreading out, same direction every time. It's a production rifle, not on the same planet with the OP's rifle. What makes me pretty certain that, in the case of my rifle, it's induced stresses, is the fact that, under the forearm there is an area of about 60 degrees width and 3" of length that faintly shows what I clearly recognize as centerless grinding chatter. I'm sure the manufacturer used centerless grinding to put the final finish on the barrel before bluing. Someone goofed but the only (visible) damage was the very faint chatter marks so the barrel was sent on to the final operations, blued, and put on the rifle. I suspect that, somewhere in the barrel manufacturing process, stresses were induced. It could have been some small, seemingly insignificant glitch in any one of the machining operations that did no apparent harm and left no apparent mark that couldn't have been eliminated in subsequent finishing operations. I suspect that this is often the reason behind rifles that experienced shooters just can't seem to get to shoot.

If I were the OP, I would look for a synthetic stock that I could drop the barreled action into without much fuss, bother or expense, make sure the barrel is free-floated, and see what happens. If there is indeed thermal-induced distortion from internal stresses in the barrel, it will show. It probably won't be of the magnitude or in the same direction as when a tight bedding job is in the mix, but it will be there. Another thought is, if the OP, through his employment, has access to a shooting facility and a CNC coordinate measuring machine in close proximity to each other, he could set the barreled action up in the CMM, program it to check the straighness of the barrel, run it once at ambient temperature, shoot it a little to warm it up, then run it back to the CMM and run the program again to check for any distortion.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

I think it’s time to admit that rifle needs a limbsaver barrel donut

I neded a laugh today!

So, I don't drink regular milk any longer so I asked my son to save me his next empty plastic gallon milk jug to use the plastic under the action where the action screws go to give a little clearance between metal and wood.

Yes, I do work at Barnes Bullets in the Ballistic Lab and Consumer Services. I've been reloading and casting lead bullets since 1966. Still learning too!

BSA, thank you for the assist!

Alan

A little plastic bread tab will work well, too.

Yeah, saw a recent post on the 127 IIRC, on a Group page the other day and read you are at the lab, congrats. Btw, didn't Rem buy them?

On the topic - I always prefer an accurate grouping rifle, but also am confident if the 1st round CONSISTENTLY hits to POA, for a hunting rifle. As most probably would agree, the first opportunity is often your best, after you let the first fly you are often watching an animal run.....no doubt things happen so it's nice to have a 2nd or 3rd you can count on. That said, with your skill...........I would not sweat a rifle that starts walking after the 2nd shot.

Made some of my best shots afield with Ruger #1s and TC Contender handguns when I was younger. Now one of those Rugers happened to be a 6BR, and I shot a sub 1/2" group for 3 shots one morning.,,,, at 330 yds. Now my longest deer kill at 400 yds only needed one shot.....though that buck dropped seconds after a Doe dropped at 200.............so I did get off 2 rounds that day

Use and enjoy the Bob.

Remington owned Barnes Bullets until 14 months ago. Through Remington's bankruptcy Barnes Bullets and the other companies under the Remington umbrella were auctioned off. We are now owned by Clarus. A Salt Lake City company who also owns Sierra Bullets. It's been an awesome thing for us. We are making more bullet and ammo than ever. We have workers in the building 24/7 making bullets and ammo. Folks are getting lots of overtime, let me tell you.

Alan

For Loonies like us, your dream job........Lol.

Congrats, I know they are glad to have you Alan.

Such a beautiful rifle pard! Have you considered having it Cryo Treated? $100 at "300 Below" isn't much of a financial gamble, and sure wont hurt it. I had my little Kimber 84L Classic .270 done and it is a Gem now. Just asking? I myself would also be very reluctant to have "just anybody" mess with that beautiful bedding! I will add that I have always had good results with the stress relieving benefit, I never worried about whether the rifle didn't foul as much as before freezing.

Jim,

Will certainly keep it in mind. Thank you for the info.

Alan

I think you will be pleased with the results sir, just send in the barreled action (they will tell you how/where to send it) to 300 Below. About a month or less later, back in your sweaty, loving hands my friend! ha Good luck to you Pard. My gun savvy Uncle who passed when I was 16, always told me the .257 Roberts was "perfect". ha Being a Looney, I have only owned a few, had one reamed to the Ackley and then had to go on and experiment with the 25-06, 257 wby. I never ,ever , killed anything with them I could not have with my very first 257 Bob! Ain't it great? lol