Has anyone had a chance to compare both actions side by side?

Interested in impressions and comments on both actions good or bad.

Thanks!

I've been wondering the same...It looks like Borden's action have a little tighter tolerances according to the websites.

I have both a Stiller Predator and 3 Borden Alpines. I think the Alpines are finished nicer,and they appear to be tighter and I don't care for the hard anodize Stiller uses. I like the larger scope base screws on the Alpine. The Alpine looks better to my eyes i suppose, with the flat side and standard size port opening.
Outside of that personally opinion prevails.

I don't think you can go wrong selecting either.

Michael

What chambering on those actions? TL

I've got a new right handed,SS,Timberline,with bottom metal box,spring and follower,trigger and safety,everything for sale.I was going to build a 300 RUM and changed my mine.$1395.00 if interested you can email me at [email protected].

I've had both actions in the shop at the same time. I've had a total of two Alpines and a Timberline, and two short action Predators and a long. In my opinion they are like apples and oranges.

The Predators seem almost as loose as 700's, and don't seem to be much truer than an untrued 700 as well. The Alpines and Timberlines on the other hand seem much more refined, have much tighter tolerances, and seem to function much smoother than the Predators.

If it were me spending my hard earned money, I would definitely spend a little bit more to get the Borden action.

Keep in mind Borden uses 18TPI instead of the standard 16TPI for barrel threads. can make selling a used barrel hard to find a interested buyer.

I have an Alpine, if I were to buy another, I'd request the barrel threads be cut 16TPI or I'd look elsewere. Only complaint I have about the Borden action.

Wow....good info Karl, thanks.
J

The predator is a .243AI and the alpine is a .17 Predator and Jim Borden is finishing a 6.5 x 47 Lapua

Thanks for the info Karl!

Nice to have an unbiased opinion from a riflesmith who actually gets to see and work with the actions.

One note though, kinda suprised that Predator seemed that "loose." I figured Stiller would have made them a lot tighter than a fatory M700. But could it be a little looser to allow for crap to get caught into the action and still be able to cycle it and fire?

Also, back to the Alpine; did your clients Karl select to use the HS DBM or Wyatt+floorplate combo? Curious on round capacity.

Thanks again!

Karl..thanks for info..very informative

I can't believe you feel the Stiller Predator is just a little truer than an untrued Rem. 700 action. I know Borden's is tighter but an untrued 700??????

I heard different by Chris Mathews at LSR who is building my custom on a Predator. Also read Kirby Allen's take on the Stiller Predator - sounded pretty good to me. The Predator is not a bench rest action but more of a refined hunting action - there's the tolerance difference.

When I spoke with Mickey Coleman, he thought pretty highly of the Predator actions if I remember correctly.

FWIW I have a recent production Predator SA with the bolt flutes. It most definitely is a hunting action because it has some obvious bolt to raceway clearance. However, it has discernibly less bolt to raceway clearance than my Rem 700 KS (my only 700). I think Jerry split the compromise right...engineer in enough clearance for it to operate in varied hunting environments but no more than necessary.

Also, I don't know if my example is more or less square than a typical factory fresh 700, but in speaking with Mark Penrod concerning barreling my action, his exact words were "I know them to be square" and he quoted me the previously trued action barreling fee from his brochure. More than a few respected smiths agree that the Predators are square. Maybe a quality improvement has occurred since Karl measured his examples? Call Jerry and ask

IMO I think a Predator is a darn good deal. But you know what opinions are like...

I sure don't have an ax to grind here either way, and I don't personally own either one. Just thought I'd pass along what I've found in my shop. I don't post just to see my own words on a screen, and I'm sure not trying to ruffle anybody's feathers.

I only have one Predator in my shop right now to compare to Remington 700's. I think it is a more recent example as it has a fluted bolt. The clearance between the bolt body and bolt bore raceway is .010. I checked several Remington 700's and the average is .008. From the action face to the bolt face on the Predator is out of parallel about .0009. The untrued Remington's that I checked ran between .0005 and .0015.

Perhaps this is not the case with all Predators, as there are some well known gunsmiths that do speak favorably of them. All I can do is comment on the ones that I have seen.

As far as round counts on the Alpines, I only barreled the actions, so I'm not sure what bottom metal ended up being used with them.

Jason,

You are correct. For what you are getting with a Predator, with the amount of custom machining and relatively low production numbers, it is quite a deal. I just think that the Borden is a better deal.

Karl

Hmmmmmm interesting to say the least but Jerry won't respond because he is at the VHJ shooting this week. I have a call into him on his cell.

I own 5 of the actions and Karl you will be getting one shortly as soon as the stock is finished to build. Can't remember if that one was actually measured or not if it is that far out rest assured Jerry will get a call.

Karl,

I am glad you are sharing your measurements of the Predator in your shop. I'm curious...is your customer going having you remachine it, or is it going back to Stiller since its out of spec?

I have no idea what Stiller's specs are. It may be well within. I know Borden says he tries to keep his within .0002. The ones I've seen have been .0002 to .0003 out. And if I remember correctly, Borden's clearance between bolt bore raceway and bolt runs about .002. Still, I don't have any doubt that 1/2" groups will be attainable with the Predator.

Karl,

Jerry claims Predators are set up for bolt fit to body of .0035" to .0045". I don't know the specs on bolt face to action face.

By no means was I trying to ruffle any feathers/instigate by starting the thread just curious for my own information how fellow shooters thought about each action, respectively.

I have no doubt either the Predator or Timberline are exceptional actions in their own right and nothing is the final word one way or another.

Boils down to the nut on trigger....

I would like to hear what Jerry Stiller has to say about the action Mr. Kampfeld has - if its out that much, Mr. Stiller will probably want to look at it, and may possibly switch it out with one that is within his tolerances.

I have heard nothing but good things about the Stiller Predator as I did with Borden,Lawton,Surgeon, Nesika etc.... etc...

Hell, I bet Ferrari has a lemon every now and then???

Karl---spoke to someone about this and I was asked what method did you use to determine you had this much run out also what type of instruments did you use and what discrimination level did this instrument have.

I used a Starrete depth micrometer, measuring from the face of the receiver to the bolt face, the way that you would to find correct headspace. It doesn't have tenths on the barrel, but I will guarantee my measurements within .0001. I've spent the majority of my life using such instruments.

This one is a magnum bolt face, but I've seen a .223 Predator bolt face with the same deviation. It's hard not to form an opinion when the few I've seen are like this.

No axe to grind says volumes. I have dealt with Jim Borden for years now, and can easily accept the notion of better tolerances.

I've got a sinking feeling that this is my action.....Karl I'll call you tomorrow.


X-VERMINATOR

Karl---thanks the person who I am talking to about this (I have 5 of the actions so my interest is very peaked) has built easily over 50 rifles on the Predators and was part of the development of the action. He measured every one that was built in his shop and never saw the numbers you came up with so there may be an issue with this action.

I am waiting on a call from him now. I can tell you this we will be measuring all of mine when they come up there!!!

David

I still think Mr. Stiller needs to hear this!! I'm anxious to hear what he has to say.

Karl

I have a predator on order for a 300 RUM build. How does a Rem action that you have sleeved compare to the Predator? BTW My smith also has some concerns with the Predator.

You guys are starting to scare me!! I am having my first custom built on a Predator action and now I'm hearing all of this???

You will I left Jerry a message on his cell.

Boss

Thanks for calling Mr. Stiller. I am curious to hear his comments. Please post as soon as you talk to him. Thanks

Thanks Boss!!

I don't know Mr. Stiller, but from what I hear, if something is wrong or out of spec. he will make it right.

Jerry Stiller and his partner Curtis Helton are great folks to work with if you have a problem. Hey, they're pretty good too even if you don't have a problem. They may not be computer geeks, but they know how to turn a piece of metal into a quality product. Both guys are very sharp when it comes to manuacturing and production. If it's not right, I truly believe Jerry will do everything he can to make you a happy camper.

On a Remington action that I bore the bolt bore raceway and sleeve the bolt, when the bolt is locked down I run about .0005 clearance between the two. As far as the bolt face being square to the front of the receiver, they usually run .0001 - .0002 out, .0003 is about the worst I've had one come out.

I should add that the threads on the Predator are much more concentric and squarer to the receiver face than an untrued Remington, which is a very important piece of the accuracy puzzle.

I hopes this puts some of the guys with pending Predator builds more at ease.

300MAG, I really dont think you need to worry unless 1/2" is not good enough for you as a hunting rifle. It think this may be an example of unnecessary, extraneous detail for the job description. Obviously if this was a bench gun you could be concerned but I would be dang happy with a 1/2" gun that was reliable in the field.

+1 to Varmintsinc's words of wisdom

Karl,
Sorry I did not call you today! I'm so frigin' busy between work, kids softball, and the house build.... The long action you have is without question mine, since you have only one LA! That being said, I have no worries!!


X-VERMINATOR

I built a 300 WSM custom around a Predator action, and eventually it turned out very nice. I had some feeding problems and had a good friend do some modifying. He changed the angle of the feed ramp and installed a small sleeve on the front of the bolt just behind the lugs.(I wanted three in the basement and this seemed to cause some of the problem.) When I had the bolt pulled all the way back and started to push forward to pick up the case, the nose of the bullet wanted to dip and not feed. If I used my thumb on the back of the bolt shroud and put downward pressure on it, the action would feed perfectly. It seemed to me that the rear of the raceway is short in length and wanted to bind when fully opened. The bolt sleeve pretty much solved this problem for my particular action. I can now put three down below and the rifle cycles very smooth.

This is my first Predator action, and I cannot comment on the Borden actions as I've never handled one. I do know that this rifle will shoot... I took it to the range just before it was closing and was only able to get off 15 rounds. It shot better than I expected; my last 2 three shot groups with 168gr. TSX's were .500 and .437" at 100 yards. Not to shabby for a 7 3/4 pound hunting rifle with hunting bullets and only 15 bullets down the tube.

I love this rifle with the Predator action, as I do my Nesika, Winchester and Remmy actioned rifles. All of these actions with a quality tube, stock, trigger etc... provide us with quite a bit of enjoyment, interest, confusion, and as observed... controversy. In the right hands, and the right smith, ALL are quite capable of extaordinary accuracy. TL

If I can get 1/2" out of my hunting rifle, I'll be jumping up and down with a huge smile on my face!!

Just made me a little nervous that a custom action was that out of square as Mr. Kampfeld described.

If you can't get 1/2" out of a full custom hunting rifle, the 'smith wouldn't & shouldn't get paid until you do, no matter what action it's on, and especially if HE recommended.

If he won't do it, I've got 2 on M70 blueprinted actions that will, and one is a 300 Win., that I'll sell to you.

MM

I own a Borden Alpine and have measured it up, down and sideways. Ditto several of the Stiller Predator actions, albeit I don't own one. Both are great out-of-the-box actions and will give all the accuracy potential a hunting rig will ever demand.

Another thing to consider is that occasionally even custom 'BR accuracy level' actions need a bit of tweaking to make them perfect.

Good shootin'. -Al

Mr. Kampfeld,
Just to satisfy my own curiosity; did you check further to see if the divergence in the bolt face from the receiver face was the fault of the bolt, the receiver, or both? When you measure to the bolt face, is the action cocked or is the bolt stripped?
I have to say, I think .010 tolerance for the bolt to receiver fit is a bit much for a custom action. GD

I have to agree with Karl on this one also. I compared actions side by side with him in his shop one day. I do not find the Stiller to be better in any way than a trued/sleeved Remmy 700 action. In fact, I personally find it not as good. Let me just say, in all fairness, that the actions I've compared it to were trued and sleeved by 3 pretty top smiths. One being Karl, the other 2 being Dwight Scott and Greg Tannel......

I still think the Predator's a good action for the money and would not shy away from one, but it is not the tightest IMO. When turned upside down, you can get the action to bind up, if you ram the bolt home hard. I've not been able to get any of the other 3 sleeved actions to do this..........

Yesterday I was toying with a Gre-Tan 17 PPC with a Pac-Nor super-match barrel. The sleeved action was one of the smoothest and tightest I've felt to date........

Still waiting to hear from Mr. Stiller about all of this.

Been there, done that. He was very polite. I'd rather not offend the man, because rippin' on his work is not my intention....

There is nothing wrong with the Predator action, for the money or for a huntin' rifle, whatsoever......

Another point I should have made, is that having a hunting rig with a sleeved action, or very tight of tolerances, may not be the best thing in certain circumstances on particular rifles IMO.....

Kind of how a Model 70 is a better trigger than a Jewell for a die hard huntin' rig.......

I'm a bit puzzled.

I have been thinking of buying a few of Stiller's actions for some custom hunting/varmint rigs. If the tolerances are not what I might expect for the price paid for these actions, why not just buy Rem 700 actions and use them. Save the money for better scopes.

If I am spending the money for tighter tolerances, I want what I paid for.

I'll wait to read Mr. Stiller's responces, so I can read both sides.

Coyotejunki,

I feel the same way- we'll just have to wait for Mr. Stiller to reply!!

As I understand it, Stiller�s goal in producing the Predator was to offer the market a choice for an accurate hunting rifle. Stiller has several bench rest actions and was not trying to build a cheaper BR action. The Predator is priced little more than where you would be if you purchased a NEW Rem 700 action and had it trued, timed, boring the raceway and sleeves on the bolt with the work done by a good smith.

I have no doubt that Mr. Kampfeld could take an average Rem 700, do the above work and have it tighter and as true or truer than the average Predator. I also doubt that the average Rem 700 is tighter and truer that any Predator. Don�t assume that I don�t like Remington rifles. At this time I have six center fire Remington rifles. They include 700, 600, 660 and a 788. None feel as tight as my two Predators. Also don�t assume that the average smith could match Mr. Kampfeld�s skill. I know that there are none within an hours drive of where I live that could.

Of course all of my Remingtons are used and have been exposed to the rain, dust and mud. And I am sure they have loosened up some over the years. However the 600 and 660 were built by national known smiths, trued and slicked up but not sleeved. These two custom guns are not as smooth as my Predators. My Predators have not been out in the weather. Only one is a complete gun and has been hunted only 18 total days.

But had the weather turned bad with wind blown sand, I have no doubt my Predator would still work as it was built to take a little grit and keep working. Where a tighter action would jam. Guys, that it what Mr. Stiller is building and selling. A hunting action that it very accurate and will handle hunting conditions without jamming.

I that is what I bought. TWICE!!!

One other point, very few custom guns will recover their cost when you sell them. A custom build on a Predator will bring more of it�s original cost than a reworked 700.

When I measured the bolt face, I did it with a stripped bolt, just like the Remington's that I checked. I did measure from the action face to the bolt lug seats on the Stiller, and could measure no difference from one to the other. So, whatever I'm measuring on the bolt face must be coming from the bolt or the bolt raceway. When measuring, I'm holding the action vertically, trying to let the bolt hang neutral. I have noticed that because of the .010 difference in the bolt to raceway, getting measurements that repeat was tough. One time I would get .001 difference across the bolt face, I've give the bolt a little wiggle and the next time it'd be about .0006.

Like I stated at the start of this post, I just think Borden Timberline and Alpine are a better value. I haven't seen either one of those action with bolt binding issues, even with tighter tolerances than the Predator. JMHO.

Good answer, and exactly what I was trying to imply in fewer words, except for possibly the resale thing. I feel if the name of a well known, highly respected smith is attached to a trued/sleeved/ 700 action, it could bring just as much from someone who feels the way I do about their work.......

Karl---back to work man, I'm chompin' at the bit here..........grin

Speedy has measured over 50 that he built and he did not get anywhere close to the results of Karl so we will wait for Jerry to get back. This could be interesting to say the least.

Oh schitt,.........here we go......grin

MAYBE WE CAN START CALLING THE PRADATOR A "SUCKS PART 2"????

my predator in .243AI rings steel at 200-300 yards with no problems it's more than accurate enough for a hunting rifle.

Michael

I know folks who compete with one (single shot) at 1K in the BR game and do very well -- I will let Jerry post the details but there is not really much difference in the tolerances between the Predator and the Python for example. When Jerry gets back in and gets caught up a little we will ear from him.

I'm all hears....

You too HUH?

I envy Karl. Would love to have his job, working out of my own house with my own shop and all. He has a nice set-up. Too bad I don't have his skills.....

Poor guy's too busy to get any shootin' in, though.....

Got it good for sure it sounds like, but he is definitely busy, Might have to drive up there one day and hand deliver one of my next two, I just cant wait to get the one he has back. I am sure he will squeeze in a little huntin time.

He don't have to go far to do it. Right out his back door would work. He lives in big buck country. You'd be highly impressed with the whitetails mounted on his wall......

I would like to come up there just to see something different than Texas, I dont get out the state too much and have never been up North, so I can see a road trip in the future just to get away and see that part of the country if nothing else. I have a buddy that is a taxidermist that works out his back door as well and we hang out over there a bs about hunting every day it is another job that would be great if I had the skills for it.

I'm a carpenter, and I have a pretty nice set-up in my garage. I love it when I'm able to work right here in my little "shop".....

Still waiting to hear the scoop!!

300MAG: What clearances does your Predator action have? -Al

Al,

I am not a gunsmith so I have no idea?? I don't have the action either, it is at LSR - he is making the rifle for me.

I am just curious to see what Mr. Stiller has to say about some of these comments on here.

I just couldn't believe that a custom action was only as square as a factory 700??

This is my first custom being built, and I wanted the best I could get with my budget, so I have some concerns now - thats all - Not stirring the pot, just concerned!!!!

Why not simply have your 'smith check your action and then you'll know for sure?

We use some short, precision ground tool steel round slugs in .0005 (half thousandths) increments to check the reciever i.d. Just check for fit in the reciever at the front and rear bearing sufaces, then mic. the bolt body at the same place and you have your bolt/reciever clearance. Takes about 5 minutes. And checking the reciever face and bolt face for squareness takes all of about 10 minutes time.

So, in about 15 minutes time you'll know where your at with your reciever.

Which, to me, seems like a better situation than getting people all worked up over what's probably a non-issue with a good product from a fine company. -Al

Man, I am gone a week and all hell breaks loose. I am not sure where the Predator having looser tolerances than a Remington came from, but I can insure you that is not the case. The bolt to raceway fit should be .0035 to .0055. Unless someone has buffed off the armoloy or done something to an action, .010 should never occur. IF that is the case and it is unaltered, I will take care of it. Maybe the wire cut oversize or something and it wasnt caught, but that should never happen. As for the TOLERANCES, they are basically the same as the benchrest action. That does not mean the CLEARANCES are though. Different thing all together. The Predator has more bolt clearance on purpose. That way a little grit wont cause bolt lockup or galling. As for square, the boltface is in the .0002 perpendicularity as is the front of the action to its bolt hole. The headspace is usually within .001, but may go to .002. The Predator is a very good action and built the same way our benchrest series actions are. It has the added feature of the anti-bind rail to make it smoother crossing the port the with the bolt clearances that it has, a feature that not many of my competitors have. I could build the bolt with a .001 clearance like our benchrest actions have or some of my competitors. When you are looking down the scope at that big royal elk and get a piece of grit or leaf in the bolt and miss the shot, you would probably be really cussing me though. In all the actions we have built into rifles, we havent really seen any difference in accuracy with bolt fits in the .006 or less range. The tighter fits on the benchrest actions make them smoother etc, but may or may not really help accuracy. I had to admit it, but some of the best shooting guns I have seen on the line at a benchrest match may be an old worn out Panda with more bolt clearance then anyone cares to admit to. That being said, I still prefer you buy a Viper over a Panda

Question, meet Answer.

Thanks for the reply Mr. Stiller!!

I bought your Predator action because I am having Chris Mathews build me a hunting rifle - the clearances are a little more forgiving, but still have tight manufacturing tolerances-seems like you posted what I wanted to hear!!

As far a being less square than a Rem 700 - you'll have to ask the poster - he may have an action or two that needs to come back you??

Jerry,

Thanks for getting back with us. I had a feeling this action wasn't within your specs. This action has definitely not been altered, so I'll give you a call tomorrow and we can go from there.

Karl

Got some positive things outta this thread.

#1 - My concerns are gone on my build - I won't be insane now

#2 - Mr. Kampfeld will be getting a new action that is in spec

#3 - Everyone seen what a stand-up guy Mr. Stiller is-
stands strong behind his products

All is good!!

I won't say it well yes I will --- Told Ya So!! Jerry is good troops and builds all of my stuff except for the old pre 64's!!!

Well since this is my action, I don't really see as to where anyone else has a dog in the fight! If you have a bad one, I'm sure the guys at Stiller Precision will make good.. It's a good action....but it seems I got a lemon! $hit happens... Nothing wrong with curiosity though.

I got off the phone with Mr. Feldkamp only minutes before Mr. Stiller posted.. That being said I've had no worries from the start of this thread...hard to when you think about the reputations involved! I have full confidence that I will not lose any time on this build no matter the solution!!


X-VERMINATOR

Interesting thread.

Talked to Jerry this morning and will be going over to his shop to pick up the new Super Predator action. The first run is just about complete and mine is ready! 338 Lapua AI is next on the list the Screwbean stock blank and Krieger barrel are already at home!

There is a group buy for the Predator on the Hide going on.

Thanks---I will check it out. USO does stuff with the Hide as well. Is the action the TAC338? If it is then it is different -- mine is just plain stainless a Predator Extreme or Super Predator is what Jerry decided to name them I think.

Just want to say, this is one of the few thread I have read lately where everyone acted like real men should. No name calling, (you know,... you stupid,...you don't know what your talking about... ect, ect,ect)

Jerry and Karl are both stand up guys and will work to make everything come out just fine.

Predator, Tac 30 and Tac 300. Not the Tac 338.

STFU, you idiot..........

same to you....

Okay, now we're back on track........grin

Jezzzz some people!!!!

+100, this is one of the threads I've really enjoyed reading and checking back in on from time to time to see how the issues were resolving. A few around here have been a train wreck lately.

Good thread, good info, good results.

Thanks

Pleasantly surprised how well this thread turned out...as pullit mentioned.

Thanks to those that participated for the input and civility.