Has anyone built one of these yet? Could just use a 223 rifle as a donor. Seems like this would surpass the 223 AI pretty easily. Could use the 204 Ruger reamer w/live pilot and use a 224 pilot instead of a 204 pilot. Hornady could do die modifications. Should be able to hit 4000 fps with a 40 gr bullet easily. Anyone have any info or first hand experience?

The .20's have better ballistics than .224"
Why would you want to take a step backwards?

Then again I'm biased since I make .204" caliber bullets.

ML

222 Rem Mag

Sounds like a 222 Rem mag to me!

I would be interested in seeing the data for this cartridge too. As Panhandle stated you could rechamber a 223 and it should be a bit faster than an AI.

Mntngoat, I have a 204 and it's a great cartridge but I wouldn't mind bumping up the performace of one of my 223's for the price of a rechamber job.
Hrnhuntr, I believed that it would amount to an improved 222 Mag.
Doc

The 22-204 Ruger looks like it would have a little more capacity the the 222 mag AI. Made up a dummy round and it looks very impressive.

I built one, shot it a little, and decided that the performance upgrade from 223 AI was not worth the extra trouble and brass costs. There was a long thread about my rifle about two years ago. It can be done, it is fast for the format, but not enough improvement to trade the effort and cost in my view. If one needs or wants more speed than a .223, just get a 22-250 or, as I did a 22-250AI.

You'll wind back up at the 222 Rem Mag, or real close to it. I'd say any improvements in ballastics would minimal if not miniscule.

I have some loaded 222 Mag AI rounds; capacity is the same/no discernable diff from a 204 necked up since the 204 has a 35 deg. versus the 40 deg and less taper of the 222 Mag AI. Case make can play a role too. Check it with water.

I hit 3,900 safely at high temps with a 21" 222 Mag and forties; pretty much what guys using the 223AI do since the capacity between them is the same.

The 22-204 or 222 Mag AI would prolly both hit 4,000 and still be safe with the forties. Any big diff would be in the barrel or loads used more than cap..

Guess the effort and money isn't worth the gain. The bolt face on the Ruger Varminter I have looks like it would be easy to open up for the 22 BR so I think that is the route I will go. Thanks for your inputs.

I've been playing with the 204 case and have built a 25-204, 22-204 and a 6mm-204 in that order. The 25 turned out to be a great coyote deer combo with performance matching the 250-3000 factory loads. The 22 is my go to coyote gun with 40's I'm only running them at 3900 but it's a 22" 9 twist barrel and extremely accurate. The 6mm was just completed this fall and I haven't had a day to set up the chrony but I'm guessing 60's in the 3600 range, again very accurate and at the end of the week I'll be heading out to wring it out on coyotes for nine days.

The thing I like about the 204 case there is no fireforming needed just load and shoot.

erich

Erich;

Tell me some more about the .25-204 and 6-204.

Erich - Since the .204 is the .222 Rem. Mag. necked down, what do you hope to get with necking it back up?


Kevin

Actually, the .204, IIRC, is the .222RM necked down and then basically AI'd.

..so 100 fps more, or 4,000 fps with the 40gr. bullets

What I'm getting is a very efficiant cartridge on a small bolt face gun with no fireforming, no custom dies and a good selection of quality brass. My three will cover the same things that my 22-250, 243 and 250 Sav will and use about 8-10grs less powder. I consider it a win-win deal.

erich

Erich;

Ballistics, please, with loads if you can, for the 6mm-204 and 25-204.

Thanks,

25-205 - 75gr Sierra HP 3150fps, 85gr NBT 3000fps, 100gr NPT 2800fps. Loads are pretty much the same as the 257 Kimber in the Hodgdon manual, start low and work up.

The 6mm-204 I have not chronographed but my load of 32.5 gr of AA-2230 under a 55gr SBK and 32gr under the 60gr Sierra HP are not showing any abnormally high pressure signs but are way beyond anything I can find in that load class (6x47 Rem & 6mm PPC ), that load shows 3500fps in a 6mm Rem BR. THIS LOAD COULD BE DANGEROUS IN ANY OTHER RIFLE OR TEMP RANGE, IT WAS DEVELOPED IN THE FALL AND USED IN THE WINTER.

All loads for these two are at or near max for my rifle which have long throats.



erich

Left to right: 222 Magnum, 222Mag AI and 22-204 (I made it by necking up).

Interesting. Thank you!

Ya'll boys got me thinking...

IMO, the 22-204 makes more sense nowadays than the 223AI. You can get 100fps faster and do it with no fireforming. What's not to like?

I think hotrodusa made one of these a couple years back and posted about it.

For loading I use a 204 Ruger Redding Type S FL Bushing die and swap out the expander button and bushing for the different calibers. I did have to ream out the neck openning a little to clear the larger necks.

erich

Looking at these photos, it appears that the .222 Mag AI has the shoulder moved slightly forward. If so, that would be harder than fire forming the .223 AI. The .22-204 looks like a much easier conversion. Just neck up and load.

DF

I'm headed in that direction with a Model 7 currently in .223. I priced the custom die route. Redding's custom die cost is $175 with an initial $50 set up fee. If someone orders one first, then the second customer pays just the $175. Lee Precision wants a $130 set up fee, $42 for the dies, and $5 shipping, or $177. Lee needs 5 fired cases and 3 bullets. Turn around time is 180 days. Not sure about Redding turn around. So, until someone make a set of dies, the Redding Competition Match "S" type FL .204 die set with alterations is the best way to go. Midsouth Shooters Supply, IIRC, charges around $130+ for this set with a Redding MSRP of $222.30.

DF

No need to go with the over priced Competition dies.

Just get the regular Type S bushing die and have the machine shop open up the neck area to clear the 22 neck diameter, same as the quote from erich.

aalf,

What about the seating die? My smith was wanting the competition die to change out the floating bullet guide. How did you rig your seater?

DF

I don't follow the harder to form over the 223 AI part? Note the 222 Mag case on the left is an unfired case, which the non-Ackley folk complain about fireforming, I say EVERY case needs fireformed to wring out top-flite potential, and to fit said chamber.

On die cost, these will all work for a 222 Mag AI:
http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/Bro...ategoryString=9315***731***702***8344***
http://www.ch4d.com/

I like the concept of the 22-204; it just needs a bit more help at present in the die situation.

Hawk,

In looking at the pictures, it appears that the shoulder was set forward with fire forming. If so, that would be more complicated than fireforming the .223 AI with a mild "crush" programmed into the equation so that the parent .223 case head is held hard against the bolt face. If the shoulder is being set forward, then other methods would be needed to keep the case head against the bolt.

DF

Yes, especially with new brass, stuff IS set forward quite a bit.

The 222 Mag AI has this crush fit as well, but only if the smith has properly set it. This chamber still has a datum point for headspace; its at the base of the neck. The photo just looks off because of the new factory case and variance in shoulder angle.

My point is that all brass needs fireformed.

I use Wilson inline bullet seaters for almost all my stuff.

The smith just needs to run the reamer into a die blank. Best served with an arbor press, though.

I have an arbor press and use several Wilson seaters, some reamed by the reamer used on the specific rifle. With this round, I was wanting a conventional seating die for faster loading. This is a light weight rifle, not a match rifle and I don't want to take the time for Wilson/arbor press seating. Couldn't the smith open a conventional .204 seating die with the reamer and get a .224" bullet seating stem? Seating die shouldn't be hardened steel like a sizing die. There would be no need for crimp.

DF

DF,

I know that Forster BR seater sleeve is easily cut, not hard at all.

All you would have is a short neck 222 Mag . I would much rather stay with the 204 .

I can seat bullets faster with an arbor press and Wilson die, than with a conventional die,


but I don't usually enter that race......

Bea,

I already have a .204. My Model 7 is in .223 and I want a fast twist barrel to shoot heavy bullets at hogs. The .22-204 reportedly has a bit more capacity than a .222 Mag, more like a .222 Mag AI. And the ease of necking up the .204 case with no fire forming is a big + for me. .222 Mag is getting pretty obsolete and one is stuck with Rem brass. Whereas, the .204 is a rising star with a much better brass selection. The 30 degree Gibbs type .204 shoulder cycles smoother out of the box mag than the steeper 40 degree AI shouldered cases. The main problem with the .22-204, as I see it, is the dies, and if I can solve that one, I'm off and running.

DF

DF,

So long as you have 204 brass, you have 222 Mag brass, FWIW.

How easily does the .204 become .222 RM? Never thought about that. Would be much less of a reloading die fiasco...

I currently make .257 Wby cases out of new WW 7mm Rem Mag brass w/o a problem. One stroke with enough Imperial Die Wax. Of course, I'm using a big, compound press.

DF

a 22-250 ends the argument.

I'm beginning to think you should just stay with a 223.......

That may be an option, as my 1:12 twist .223 will shoot 60 gr. Partitions accurately (i.e. 1/2" @ 100 yds). The reason for going with another barrel and 1:8 twist is to shoot even heavier bullets at hogs, etc. I'm still exploring options until I find a combo that I feel comfortable with. While I'm at it, may as well get the biggest bang for the buck...

Thanks for all your help.

DF

The seating die is the easiest of the bunch. The Hornady seating die with the sliding sleave is just about universal.

I use the same 224 seater to load 223, 22-204 and 22-250. That works with most of the sizes 6mm seater for 6x45, 6mm-204 and 243, 25 cal seater for 25-204 and 250 Sav.

Also Hornady will make a Custom FL sizer for around $110 no set up fee. Check with Lonnie Hummel at Hornady, they made my first 25-204 FL die. The Hornady taperred expander ball is first rate, I cal take 204 to 25-204 in one pass with a Redding I have to do it in two.

erich

My point was, most of the available options have already been covered. There's not a hell of a lot new under the sun. You have to size the brass and seat a bullet.

It's tough to beat an inline bullet seater for concentricity. The OP already has an arbor press. Have the smith run the reamer in a blank and you're golden.

I had just a plain ass Redding 204 Ruger neck die honed out to .244" to cover neck sizing, which is all I ever do anyway, as I keep the brass segregated for each barrel.

IME, I've never had to full length size a .378 sized case from a bolt gun with sane loads. But just in case, I had a Redding 204 body die opened up to accept a fired case in case I need to bump and squeeze. The other option, which you did, has been covered as well, open up a Type S full length die, and get the appropriate bushing(s).

IMHO, there's three options, because of the boltface, shoot a 223, go 223AI and just buy the factory Ackley dies, or go to the 22-204 and modify the dies you want to use......you're not splittin' the atom.....

aalf and erich,

Great info and a bunch of help, guys.

Thanks,

DF

DF: Don't understand why you wouldn't go with a Wilson seater since you already have an arbor press? Takes me about 15 minutes to do a Wilson seater. And I'm a slow/steady type at the lathe....

If you're paying to have this done, using a 'close' standard Wilson die (222, 223) is even easier.

If you're intent on a 7/8X14 die, a Newlon blank is a good way to go.
http://newlonprecision.com/

Al,

Now you've gone and done it.....

I've been avoiding the Newlon blank suggestion, as I didn't want to get into the hardening, coating, finish vs resize reamer, etc, etc, etc.....

Lee 204 Collet dies would work too.

Change neck sizing mandrel to 22 caliber. Done.

Change seating stem to 22 caliber. Might have to open up the die slightly to get the 22-204 to fit, but it'd be easily done even at home with a hand drill and hone if one wanted.

Save money and have what you want.

The Wilson seater is an option that's not off the table. I'm looking for a .222 or .223 Wilson seater on Ebay. None there right now. I've picked up some, like .220 Swift, at good prices. One of those acquired cheap enough would be OK for the smith to ream with the same reamer.

I've also considered a .204 Hornady seating die with a .224" sliding sleave. That and a tricked out Redding FL type "S" sizer would probably work. I'm looking for the most buzz for the buck, but want something I won't need to be replacing.

DF

Yeah..but I'm like that.

Follow up report on the .22-204, Model 7 project.

A Redding tech told me this PM that their Type "S" FL bushing sizing die will work one caliber above and one caliber below the stated cartridge, as long as the ctg. body remains the same. He said I could use a .22 cal bushing and a .224 expander in the .204 die without having to open the die neck. Those dies sell for around $47.00 and I don't have to buy the more expensive Competition die.

A Wilson blank seating die with .224 stem sells for around $35.00 and the smith can ream it when he chambers the barrel.

I'd studied a lot of reloading die options for the .22-204 and feel this combo represents the best bang for the buck.

I've seated an assortment of 75 gr. bullets into .204 cases to see how the rounds look. The bullets were seated to where the bullet shank/boattail junction is even with the case neck/shoulder junction, with only the boattail hanging down into the case body. With high ogive bullets, it is my understanding that the .060 freebore will be perfect. With some of the less sleek, lower ogive bullets, I may have to seat them a bit deeper.

A Forum member sent me a 1/4" aluminum block to replace the factory mag block. I cut the factory part out this evening and am JB Welding the new block in place. He had it all cut to fit. I just glued it in place. That give around 2.57" of mag space. I don't think I'll need more than 2.45" COAL, but if I do, the space is available. Many thanks to the pard. who helped out.

Now, I need to craft a new follower, as I think the chrome, stamped factory part will have too much fore/aft motion to be effective. I'm lookig for an old model milled .308 follower from a 700 or model 7 that I can cut to size. The only thing, those larger .308 length followers use a different magazine spring. Any suggestions?

Getting interesting.

DF

With the Redding Bushing die be sure to order the stem for the 224 cal expander as the threads on the 204 stem are too small for the larger expander ball. The Hornaday seater for the 223/222Rem Mag with the sliding sleave is the way to go for a seater, no mods neaded.


Erich

A 6BR shooting the same weight bullet (to 65-70gr or so) as 22BR will push it faster. Also 6-250 and 22-250. A 22-204 should be the same but I haven't done anything with mine yet and actually found out. But the 204 is about as good a case as you could want with a .378 head size. It's a natural for 22 caliber, or 17 or 6 or 25.

The 223AI is a real good cartridge that performs way better than many would think. The only people who don't know this are those who've never used it. The same powder capacity as 222Mag but isn't stuck using Rem brass. The 204 case holds about another 1gr. more powder than either of those and there's a choice of headstamps....Lapua was supposed to have started selling it a couple years back.

With 22-204 dies are no problem. Redding bushing dies accept a larger neck. My necksizer is a Redding Comp .204 die with .22 sized bushing. Seater is a .223 Comp die with the slider reamed to 22-204 when the barrel was chambered.

With the 223AI I've shot a ton of stuff with 50's at 3800+ which is 22-250 territory, using only about 27gr powder. The 22-204 should at least equal that velocity and feed through a 700 action with no tweaking. I'm hoping for another 50-75fps more than the 223AI. It's a win-win considering less powder/heat/barrel wear compared to larger case cartridges.

Erich,

The Redding tech told me yesterday that the .224 expander has the same threads as the .204 expander, that one could use the same stem, just swap out the expanders. Hope he's not messing up. Any way, I'll proceed accordingly and if there's a problem will get with them and will post.

I have an .222 RCBS comp seater with the window and sliding bullet guide. I looks like it would work with the .22-204, but I've read some stuff about that not being a good design. So, I'll do the Wilson custom seater. It will be interesting to use both seaters and measure runout.

DF

I've read that .223AI loads are a good place to start with the .22-204. With 75's what powders to you guys think will be the best performers? I've heard H335, TAC, among others. Ball C has been good in my .223 with 65 gr. Gamekings.

Which of the 75 gr. bullets would be the best choice for hunting hogs, etc.? Some target bullets are OK for hunting, others, maybe not as good.

I'm using Hornady brass. Is that a Norma product, or who makes it? It seems to be pretty good stuff, although I haven't spent any time weighing cases or checking for water capacity.

DF

erich,

Guess what. You were right. The Redding tech was wrong. Redding may need to hire you to do their tech work...

A .224 expander button won't fit the decapping stem on a Redding .204 Type S FL bushing die, the threads are different (like you said). I just got off the phone with Russ at Russ Haydon Shooting Supplies. He robbed another die and is shipping the .204 sizing die with .224 expander assembly. I already have Redding .244 and .245 bushings which will work. I also bought a blank Wilson seater with .224 seating stem. The Redding expander didn't look like it was designed to expand .204 necks to .224, so I bought a K&M expander for around $20.

Russ Haydon isn't the least expensive supplier, but surely one of the most helpful and knowledgeable with an impressive inventory of dies and parts. Some of the other suppliers have nice listings, even with modest discounts off retail, but with a lot of their stuff on backorder. I'll do business with Russ again. And, it's not but a very few dollars more to receive top notch, expert service and have your items in stock. What a deal...

Thanks,

DF