Hello to all, newbie here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> I was referd to here from another site and the guy knows who he is and i say thank you. ok here goes:

I am looking into in the next year or so into building a really killer Ultra light rifle. My goal is a rifle between 5 and 5.5 lbs.. I have considerd having Christenson Arms do the Carbon wrapping on the barrel with a titanium muzzle break. I wonder if that would be lighter than a fluted Stainless barrel in a hunting type desighn??? I have looked at several factory guns in the .270 WSM and out of all of them my favorite sounding one is the Kimber 8400 montana. That gun weighs in at 6.2 lbs. have the barrel wrapped or fluted and i might get close. here is the kicker though, I would really like to get a wildcat made that would be a .257 WSM Made to shoot the 100gr Barnes TSX moly'd. I already have a .257 Weatherby that I love but I dont think I could build one that would be that light.

You guys on here know a heck of alot more about this than I do. Would you please give me suggestions on what you would do to build(I should say have built) a gun like what i am looking for and who to do it. I am not rich so this is not the Ultimate bank breaking project so please keep that in mind. If you know af another wildcat that would be easier and give me simular perfornce I am open to suggestions.

P.S. What has been your experiences with the Quality and performance of Kimber rifles?

Charlie Sisk. I checked out your sight last night and I like the looks of your guns. Would you have any suggestions on this? I didnt realise you were a poster here.

Common guys anyone have an idea on this?

Thanks

Demonstw:



Welcome to the fire, I think you'll be glad you sat in.....meaning, this can be an expensive stump to sit on......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



There are some questions in your post that could spur considerable very opinionated debate. Without adressing those, I'll give you a very simple formula to achieve what you want. This will be for the custom route in the wildcat 257 WSM (or other) caliber.



Additional thought on the caliber question, you may get some opinions about "build this instead, build that instead"....yadda yadda yadda. Don't worry about that, any of the short 25's will do great for what you have in mind, just build the one you (want).



I assume that when you say 5-5.5 lb, you mean without scope. This is easily do-able. 5.5 lb. or less (with) scope is do-able too, but not easy. You are correct, you probably cannot build a 257 wby for this weight (although you might get closer than you think)



Acquire a Rem 700 ADL short action rifle in whatever caliber you can find cheapest. This can be used at a pawn shop or new from Wal-mart or whatever. This will cost you about $300 - $375 The action from this rifle will be the basis for your rifle.



Action:.....................32 oz.............~~$325

#1 barrel @ 24"......35 oz.............~~$475 (specify 1.5" shank length)

Stock:......................22oz..............~~$230 from HiTech (Bansner) unfinished, but with pad.



This gets you to 5 lb. 9 oz. without stock bedding or paint.



I suggest the following lightweight, high performance parts..........Tubb speedlock firing pin, davidsons alloy bolt shroud, aluminum ADL triggerguard, Rifle Basiks trigger. These will cost about $200-$225 and will save a total of nearly 5 oz. getting you down to about ~~ 5 lb. 4 oz.



If you go back through the custom rifles forum you will find many threads on the subject, much debate, and some additional ideas/opinions. Do some homework, all the info you need is on this forum in the last 1-5 months



One such is a DIY foam rubber recoil pad that will save at least 3 oz. (Your pet gunsmith has likely never heard of one of these)



Another is to buy a Rem Ti rifle and have it rebarreled. If you use the lightweight parts suggested in the "Lunatic Fringe" and other Ti threads, you will hit the weight you want and won't have to deal with stock work.



Misc. opinions from me...............................



Kimber rifles, quality is open to debate. I suggest you might stay away from any new offering from them for a while. Their record has not been good at first with new products.



Ti brake...........no reason on a 25 cal.



Carbon barrel..........suggest you call carbonbarrels.com and ask about your project, look for the ad banner at the top of the indexes. Mike is very professional and helpful, he also knows his stuff.



Good luck and good reading..........



JimF

Try www.shortmags.com there has been a lot of discussion about the 257 WSM over there with several shooters having them already.

Welcome aboard.

First off, if you mean 5 to 5.25 pounds all up, you're talking specialty stuff. Search for posts by JimF.

If you mean that weight for the rifle only, say 6 pounds all up, that is eminently doable. I saw a Christensen carbon barrel built on a 700 Titanium at SHOT this year that was absolutely a feather. The kicker, pun fully intended, is that it was chambered in .300 Weatherby. Eek!

If you want someone to build you a rifle, I cannot give enough praise to Charlie Sisk. He has built three for me, with a fourth on the way. The fourth is right up your alley, but before I give you specs, I want to touch upon your caliber choice as it relates to weight.

You do realize that a case with the powder capacity of a WSM, even a .257, in that light a rifle is going to kick like hell, right? It's gonna be tough enough to shoot it with that lack of weight, without even factoring in the recoil. Also, a light rifle and a long barrel aren't usually compatible. Although tests done by our own Charlie Sisk and published by Wayne Van Zwoll (who cited Charlie) as well as tests done by John Barsness (Mule Deer around here) strongly suggest that barrel length does not affect velocity as much as many believe, conventional wisdom still says that you need some barrel length to burn all that powder. In a .257 WSM, I'd think 24" is about as short as I'd go. Imagine a .257 Weatherby (very similar powder capacity to the .257 WSM) on a 23" barrel????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> On a project where weight was not the paramount concern, I'd happily go 26" or even 27" on a .257 WSM.

Now, my lightweight is based on a Remington 660 action, which is pretty much the lightest production action made in steel, and until the Titanium 700's, the Holy Grail of this type of project. After much thought and consideration, plus a healthy dose of conversation with Charlie, I settled on a .308 Winchester, 21" #2 contour Lilja that Charlie is going to octagon for weight savings (and aesthetics). I considered the WSM's briefly, but:

1] There have been feeding issues. I'll leave that one there.

2] Rem doesn't make the Titanium in the magnum boltface, or at least they didn't the last time I checked.

3] 660's built in .350 RemMag (which would have the correct boltface) command a premium.

4] I didn't want a longish barrel on this one, nor the unnecessary recoil.


I almost went with a straight .284 Winchester, but the .308 edged it out on a few fronts for me.

Now, having said all that, I think what you need to see is what we affectionately call a "Big Stick Special" around here. Eremicus has one I've seen, handled and shot, and I believe it makes weight, or easily could with a few minor swaps. It' a beaut! The "BS Special" is a .25-284 wildcat built on a 600 with a blind magazine, a McMillan stock with light fill (consider a Bansner for even more weight savings) a Leupold scope, and my choice for rings would be the Talley LW's.

With a Leupold VXIII 2.5-8x36 or M8 6x42 (both 11.5 oz.) and the Talley LW's (2 oz), you "spend" 13.5 oz for a top-quality optics setup. A Bansner short-forend stock should come in at a pound and a half, the action 31 oz, and then you get to figure the barrel weight. Check JimF's last post on the barrel weight formula. I'd put on a 22-23" #1, and bed her to the tip of the forend.

The boys get 3300+ with 100-grain XLC's. Your XXX/moly should be right there. You check the trajectory on that, and it's a 350-yard rifle eaassyyy. Holding it still enough will be the challenge, especially beyond that range.

For an ultralight in 25, that's a hell of a rig!!!

Rick

Ahhh, I see the boys have chimed in while I was writing.

Please be aware that there is no going back once you get bit by this bug. You might consider this before it's too late.

Rick

To further what the Rick's have said, their isn't a cheep way to build a light rifle. Another possibility is a .25-06 Ackley improved. You can buy a standard Remington Ti rifle in .25-06 and have it reamed out to the Ackley version. This will be the cheepest way to go and probably still have the strongest settup. Velocity will be right at what the .25 WSM provides and will feed better. I personally would build a light .25-284. I have one and another on the drawing boards. Mine has a 26 inch barrel and it fetches 3,400 fps with 100 grain Hornadys and 3,500 with Barnes 100 grain XLC's. I have killed a truck load of game with both bullets and I LOVE this cartridge. It feeds perfectly and has very little recoil. Flinch

DemonSTW:

It seems that caliber choice is the most personal and emotional issue involved in coming up with a rifle recipie. For some reason, as soon as folks start thinking about light rifles, they often visualize shooting a Stone Sheep @ 1/2 a mile across a windswept glacier. Therefore they come in with their heart set on a "magnum" of some new sexy flavor.

I think the reality is, that shooting ranges are still 200 yds or less for 95% of what we all hunt. I have hunted high rough country (mostly with a backpack on) for over 30 years and have never had to try a 400 yd shot. The well known writer John Barnsness has written to the effect that he has shot game at 400+ yds only a very few times out of what I'm guessing is several hundred head of game.

Although I brushed off the caliber question in my first reply, I do agree with Rick that a more moderate caliber matches best with really light rifles. I have built quite a number of these and all are on either 308 or 284 derived cases. I don't care for long (ish) barrels and so have settled upon 21" as my formula. My personal take is that anything between .25 and 7mm or even up to .30 on one of the smaller cases makes a very nice combo in an ultralight.

Having said all that, follow your heart on the caliber choice. Get the thing that you really (want) because that will make you happiest.

JimF

A Ti in 25-06?? Do you know something we all don't??

JimF

260 Rem.
270 Win.
7mm-08 Rem.
30-06 Sprg
308 Win.
Here are your choices if you want a M700 Titanium--No .257 cal anywhere on the list....

WOW guys I am in awe of your willingness to help a guy out. Thank you very much.

Like I said in my post the caliber isnt as big of a concern as it is performance. I want it to be a .257 reguardless. I have not really seen a .284 before so I am not familur with the case. But i have read that number a ton on here so it must be a worthy cartridge. I really like the sound of the 25-06 AI as well. I thought about that one a long time ago. I had a 25-06 and I absolutly kick myself everytime I think about the day I traded it towards my STW. I love my STW but I should have saved my money a bit longer and just bought the STW instead of the trade.

I know these guns will kick like the dickens so that is why it will have a break on it reguardless if it causes me a few oz. .

Now here is something to consider. I think I have the action needed already. I dont know if this is considerd the short action or if this is even smaller but I have a .243 win. in the 700 BDL. The gun is just collecting dust so it is available for use and would be free since I already have it LOL. What would this action work with? Actually this gun is what spurd me to wanting to do something. I have my STW(which is a Sako TRGS) that is my main hunting rifle and this gun is intended to be its backup and rifle to use when hiking or bushwacking is required. I just didnt think I could get out of the action the performance I was wanting.

I hunt the hugh country in Wyoming and have hunted the same area 14 years streight and my dad has hunted it 30 years now. 300-400 yard shots are very common, I would say 50/50 with those under 200. My dad shoots a .257 Weatherby(my gun but I dont get it till he is done hunting LOL) for this reason as well. I have ranged a few one shot kills he has taken and the longest were 628 yards and 583 yards. See the shots are often from one ridge to another as the Elk move through the timber. Stocking for a closer shot is often out of the question. If possible you can bet we do it. We spend alot of time on the shooting range and know our rifles ablity very well. I think we were born with a natural ablity to shoot very good as there is not a person in the family I wouldnt consider a near marksman. Anyways just rambling there. sorry.

Well considering this, what do you think now? If this wont work I am very much considering the 700TI in the 25-06 and have it reamed to the AI. I think that would be the cheapest route. but maybe not, the prices you have shown seam to be very reasonable.

Thanks again!!!!!!!!!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Demon:



Couple of things............



The 243 action is a perfect donor so you are on your way for free.............. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



The action will fit a WSM or a 284 derived cartridge. Both are good.....follow your heart here, but I'd personally do the 25/284 in a 22-23" bbl.



Personal opinion: Don't do a brake, the recoil here with the 100 gr bullets in a 6 lb rifle will be about equal to a 7 Rem mag with 140 gr bullets in an 8.5 lb. rifle. You don't need a brake for that.



The action does not fit a 25-06.



The Remington Ti in 25-06 does not exist. (never has).



If these incredibly long shots are made with the aid of a rangefinder......then the extra 100-200 fps out of the WSM case won't matter. Once you are holding or correcting for 4-6 FEET of drop, the 5" drop advantage of the extra velocity is meaningless.



Just curious......do you hold over or "click correct" for these long shots? If you hold over, what is your reference for say 5 feet of drop?? If you "click correct" do you count the 240 individual clicks or go by number of dial turns??



If those incredibly long shots are made without the aid of a rangefinder.......................well....................you guys are the best I've ever heard of.



JimF

I am sure the 700 rifle I handle in Ti was a .25-06. I handled a lot of them, so maybe it was a .30-06. Who knows, but I am sure big green will have other calibers very soon. Flinch

I would do the .25-284 in a heartbeat and shoot nothing but 100 grain Barnes XLC bullets.

Jim, I am gonna run across the street and see what that Ti 700 was. Flinch

I just ran across the street and checked out that 700 Ti. It was a .30-06, not a .25-06. Sorry for my mistake. They currently make it in .308, .30-06, 7mm-08 and .270. A 7mm-08 punched to .284 would be cool! The short actions weigh 5.25 lbs. and the long actions weigh 5.50. All have 22 inch barrels. Flinch

Let me get this straight....you're looking for a ltwt 25-caliber rifle that will allow you to take shots out to 600 yards on elk <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> What weight bullet do you plan to use? I'm also curious what the retained energy would be at that range even with the big 257 Weatherby.

I don't care if you're family tree includes Daniel Boone, Annie Oakley and Sgt York, that's irresponsible behavior in the field and I suspect you wound and don't recover (or even know you hit) more elk than you shoot and tag. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Bill,

600 yard shot at an elk with a 100 grain bullet ???

Eeeeeeeeekkkkkkkkksssssssssss !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

XLC or not, I agree, 100 grain bullet : not alot of retained energy, not much room for error, especially with ANY wind.

No thanks, I'll stick to my 300 RUM.

Tony.

DemonSTW
Call me boring, but let me tell you about the last "light weight" project I built.
Remington 700 short Titanium action
# 3 Lilja at 22 inches
High Tech stock
1 inch Pac Dec recoil pad
Talley rings & bases steel
3 x 9 Swarovski 1 inch tube
308 Winchester caliber
Finished rifle was 6 3\4 pounds and shot very well...in the 3's and 4's with 165 Ballistic Tips
I think you would be hard pressed to find a better light weight all around rifle....It took a long time to drill that into our great webmaster's head... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Charlie

Ok, I ran the ballistics in my ballistics program, it stops at 500 yards, but with a 100 TSX, 3400 muzzle, it shows 1200 ft-lbs at 500 yards, at 600 it might be under 1000 ft-lbs.

With only a 10mph cross wind, there is 17" of drift at 500 yards.

On the other hand, my 300 RUM with a 180 Swift Scir starting out at 3300 hits with 2330 ft lbs @ 500 yards and has 13.8" of wind drift @ 500 with a 10 mph wind.

BTW, I killed a 6x6 bull with that very load at a LRF verified 448 yards.

Tony.

Demon:

You have a fair idea of what you "want" Ie an ultralight rifle in a hot 25 cal. That's a nice useful thing to have.

There are good ways for you to get there starting from what you have. (243 action)

I'd suggest that you build what you want. Just realize what it can do really well, and what it shouldn't try to do.

Probably those 600 yd shots (at anything) fall into the "shouldn't try it" category.

JimF

Sorry guys, I didnt see the Ti wasnt available in the 25-06 until after I posted. I dont think it would be too hard to get a barrel for the gun in 25-06AI would it? Take the brand new barrel off never having a round chamberd and sell it on here or someplace to help cover the cost. Anyways just an idea.

I will use the .243 action though now that I know it is able for these rounds. I am very much leaning towards the 25-.284. Sounds like alot of you have experience with this load. What velocities are you seeing with 100Gr bullets? Are there any feeding problems with this round at all? That fact has me a bit nervous to do a .257 WSM.

Mr. Sisk I will be in contact with you soon to see if we can work something out on this. Thanks for your reply.

Now for those of you that think that those shots that I mentiond are not possible. think again. They did happen, I saw them with my own eyes and they were not LRF assisted either. Hard to beleive I know but it happend. I know the distances now because last year we had some spare time on the hunt and rode the horses over to where the shots happend and Lazerd them with the finder. The 628 yard shot was on a good sized cow and the 583 yard shot was on a 5 point Rag horn bull. They were both from the same spot and the bull was in a clearing that was obviously a lil closer. It was 2 years after the cow and knowing the shot he made and how he made it on the cow he new he could hit the bull. Both were between 7:30 and 8 in the morning and were dead calm. Thats one of the beauties of where we hunt, if it is a clear day there is hardly ever even a breeze in the mornings. We would never even consider a shot like that if they werent calm days.

On that, I myself do not have the confidence he does and would not take a shot that far. I have taken a cow at 385 yards with my STW and it wasnt hard at all, aimed mid chest heigth, squeezed the trigger and she fell dead on the spot with a beautiful 3" exit hole out the back side and her lungs were pudding. The gun I want I do want to be able to reach out to 400 yards as that would be the maximum yardage I would dare with the gun. If I am in these normal spots though I would not have that gun I would have the STW. I also use a Bipod and shoot in the Sitting match position with the STW when I shoot if possible. Most of the time we hunt by being set up to watch drainages and ridges before daylight and shoot from there. Funny how you know these spots when you have hunted the area for 30 years like my Dad and freinds have. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I just called him to see if he rememberd how he held on the two shots. He said it was pretty simple actually. He held the horizontal crosshair even with the top of their heads and the verticle crosshair with the back of the front legs and shoulder. He said the bull at first had his head down so he had to wait for it to lift it's head before he lined up the shot and took it. He said the main thing was that there was a tree( which there is) that was downd and he was sitting behind it using it as a dead rest. With the Elk as far off as they were they had no idea we were there and were just feeding and calm. he knew he had plenty of time to take the shot and was patient until the shot presented it'self. I remember that and thought it took him forever to shoot. I will say that I know these shots are not the norm and I dont think I have seen him take many others that were past about 400 yards.

As far as the guy that said we must lose alot of game, I take extreme offense to that remark!! We beleive in bullet placement not just put it on the shoulder and pull. The way we hunt we often have very good shot opportunities and place the bullets exactly where they are to be, right behind the front shoulder. We lost one Cow that Dad shot at about 275 yards. She was hit hard and I went looking for her along with everyone else. I was about 10 at the time and luck be it, I found her and had no gun. We thought she was for sure dead but when I approached her she jumped up and ran off into the timber. we searched for her for 2 days and never found her. We hunted for a full week after that and watched for the tale tale sighns, like Crows and Magpies and listend for a concentration of Coyotes at night and never seen a thing. The only other animal that was a near loss was my first Antelope. I had a good dead rest and he was about 175 yards off or so and I had the crosshairs exactly where they were supposed to be. I shot and his hind end dropped like a rock. I shot him right through the hind quarters. We chased the buck a better part of 2 miles till I finally came to a hill top and he was laying at the bottom with his head up about 20 yards below me, I put the crosshairs right below the back of his head and shot him dead. I almost quit hunting due to the incodent. If it werent for the fact that the Redfeild WA scope I had on my 25-06 had a broken crooshair I probably would have. It broke my heart to see that Antelope dragging himself to get away. My dad was a few ridges over watching a small heard so he wasnt there to follow up the shot. I would have had him do it if he would have been there to end its suffering even if it meant I could get into trouble. After my Dad found the broken crosshair, I was so mad I took the scope outside and slamed into a brick wall. For that reason, even though they may be good scopes I will never buy another Redfeild. The following year I spent more time at the range than I ever have in my life. I was never again going to put an animal thru that. I never have again to date either. We take our hunting seriously and never drink while hunting or anything. We always pray after each kill to thank the good Lord for providing us with a fine animal and good food on our tables. Too bad more people dont take the time to learn their weapons and give the repect to hunting these fine game that they deserve. Some guys are the type that say crap like ," hey it was a long shot and i hit it, I thought that was pretty good just to hit it!" Those kind are the kind I would like to slap!!

Sorry this is so long but I had alot to say and clear up. I feel there are some great guys here and look forward to many more great discusions and learning from you all in time.

P.S. The load he shot the Elk with was 73Gr. of Winchester 780 Ball powder shooting a 100 gr. Nosler Solid Base boat tail spitser(discontinued to our sorrow 8 or so years back)using the Federal 215 mag primer in a Weatherby Mark V Deluxe with 26" barrel. Now due to the discontinued powder he has switched to a very hot load of Reloader 22 at 74.6 Gr. and for the first time this year he is giving the Sierra Game King 100 gr. SPBT a try due to running out of the Noslers. Anyone care to run that thru your calculator to see what he could expect with this load? I would much appreciate it.

Again thank you to you all that have contributed to helping me find a new rifle that will surely be impressive.

model 70 short action, 24" shilen # 2 barrel, mcmillan featherweight stock, talley alum. rings. any lighter than that and it will be very difficult to shoot straight. I simply can not shoot a 22" ultra lite barrel. maybe some do better. "put the weight in the barrel". also suggest the brown precision stocks

DemonSTW, here is what the .25-284 looks like next to a .35 Whelen case (middle) and a .338 Ultra mag, which is on the left.


Here is a pic of the cartridge and a couple of recovered 100 grain Barnes XLC bullets. Flinch

I would STRONGLY suggest that your dad doesn't shoot the 100 grain Sierras at game. My buddy and I have been giving them a good work out in a .257 Bob and running them at 3,100 fps. They come apart really easily on small deer. The ballistic tips actually hold up better than the Sierras. Tell your dad to load the 100 grain XLC bullets and never look back. Flinch

Demon:



The 25x284 has about the same case capacity as a std. 25-06. You will get similar ballistics to the 25-06 or maybe a small amount more or less depending upon the individual rifle. I have a finished 284 and also a 6.5x284 which is at the 75% finished stage. Both feed very well, although both actions took a little work. These are easy conversions as the 284 based wildcats are very common.



When you start talking to gunmakers, just remember to keep your weight goal firmly in mind and state your goals VERY VERY CLEARLY. If you go to a guy and say "Here is my action, I want a 25x284 and I want it to weigh between 5.0 lb. and 5.5 lb. without scope" then he knows exactly what he has to do to make you happy. If you say "I want a lightweight 25x284" and leave it at that, the gunmaker will likely build you whatever his "formula" rifle is, and that may be quite a bit heavier than what you want.



Here is a tip......if you state your weight goal and the guy gives you a blank look, that usually means that he has not weighed actions and components and he does not know in advance how something will turn out. A guy that knows light stuff will KNOW what a S/A 700 weighs. He will KNOW what a #1 or #2 barrel will weigh. He'll KNOW the stock weights and how much you can save with light components. That's the guy you want to go with.



There were some dubious comments about those long range shots. Here's why........



Both were one shot kills at extreme distances without rangefinder.

Miss the estimate by as little as 35-40 yds at that range = miss the vital zone of an elk or miss it completely.

Most of us don't know a single person anywhere that can esitmate that kind of distance that closely.

The correction factor used, (hold at the top of the head) is VERY imprecise when those distances are involved.



I don't think anybody meant to offend you. However, that kind of a shot at an unknown range would be considered VERY VERY LUCKY by most of us. And it might be considered irresponsible by some.



Good luck with your project, we all welcome you to the fire, just bear with us sometimes when we question things that seem a bit "out there".



JimF

Flinch,

that is a great looking round. Thank you for taking the time to post that. One question, what caused the differences in the bullet? Was it bullets recoverd at different distances or different velocities? What were the variables? I like the way the first and smallest bullet looks, enough left to penetrate yet enough missing to cause serious damage. I personaly like a medium amount of fragmentation as these fragments are what tear the organs up and causing instant kills and enough bullet to penatrate deep. More bloodshot yes, but I prefer bloodshot over losing one anyday. I am going to do some searches on the .25-.284 and see what I can find on it.

The .284 doesnt look much different in size versus a WSM.

Jim, I know it sounds far fetched and I have called bull several times on simular stories so I understand peoples reactions. The only one that burned me and I mean BURNED me was the losing game comment. Water under the bridge and moving on.

Thanks for your advice on dealing with the builders. I will keep that in mind for sure.

Dad learned his distance judgeing skills from being a surveyer during the summers while he was in school. If all you did was judge and measure distance all day, you would get good at it to. I myself am actually very good at judgeing distance. I get it from being a quarterback and playing ball for a long time. I had to know and "feel" the distances on that feild like no other. Now when I judge distance I actually visualize football feilds between myself and the target.

Here is a game for all of you to try if you havent already. We do this for practice on judging distance and I find it helps greatly. We take the LRF with us and find objects, we then bet a dollar on each object and say what our guess is for distance and then range it. The loser pays a dollar to the winner. With me and Dad we usually end up just passing the same dollar back and forth LMAO. I even take my LRF with me when I am fishing. While trolling(not the most exciting thing!!) I find objects on the shore, or other boats, whatever it might be, and judge the distance. LRF it then see how close I am. This far harder for me for some reason than judging in the hills. I think this sharpens my skills more than any of them. I am not saying that everytime I could say that Elk is 621 yards and be right, but you can bet your rear that I can do it probably 5 times to the one that a person that doesnt practice. Try this and I bet you would be suprised how much this helps and do it away from the range!!!

The two bullets on the left were recovered from the off side of a giant prairie dog (Texas Longhorn <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> ). The shot was 125 yards for both shots. The first bullet (far left) broke the front shoulder and was recovered against the off side rib cage. The second shot (middle) was high through the top of the shoulder and was found just under the skin on the off side. Both bullets took out a LOT of heavy bone at close range and high velocity and that is why they look like they do. The muzzle velocity was just over 3,500 fps. The far right bullet was recovered out of a 230 lb. white tail buck. He was facing away and I planted the bullet right where his tail connects at 326 yards. Yes, that is where the bullet was suppose to go. The bullet shattered the pelvice and was found in the tender loin after penetrating about 18 inches of bone and meat. My wife actually found this bullet while eating a tenderloin steak <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I have recovered another bullet that is identicle to the 3rd one. The buck was 150 lbs. and was shot at 381 yards. He was facing away and we were slightly above him. The shot entered the back bone just in front of the pelvic and was found in the right front shoulder....again, during dinner <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> That bullet also crunched a lot of bone and dropped the deer in his tracks. I like the XLC bullets a LOT in fast moving cartridges. Flinch

Thanks again Flinch. I know the one thing about the X bullets is they have great penetration along with causing good damage. Now here is my next question, if I wanted to find some info on a load what topic should I put it under?

What I am trying to figure out is a load for my 7mmSTW. Currently I am shooting 84.5 gr. of H1000 with the Combined technologies balistic silvertip. I hate this bullet. It is losing it's jacket when I shoot at 400 yards or so, it wont even go all the way through a gallon jug of water. The Remington factory loads that I shot the cow with far outperformed this bullet. The velocity is good though, I am getting 3395 out of it.

I would like to change to the Lazzeroni Lazzerhead bullet. It is a Barnes TSX in 120 gr and is coated. I know with the TSX you get less pressure and I am sure with the coating of it it is even less yet. What would be a good powder to run in this? Shoulder I use a faster powder to acheive more pressure like Reloader 22? Or stay with the H1000 or move to slower? I am thinking faster but you guys know your stuff and i would like to know your opinion on this.

I thought I should add, the gun is Sako TRGS 26" bbl.

Thanks again!!

This is an old thread but has some good info in it that pops up on .257 wildcat searches. I've been shooting 25-06 AI and Rem for over 50 years and have found it to be one of the most effective for hunting in areas with some open space and some range. Here are thoughts that occurred to me in this thread:

The 25-06 AI is noticeably faster than the standard Rem version. I've gotten around 100-200 fps additional velocity out of it depending on bullet/powder but most importantly, with a 26" barrel, it exhibits "scary" hydro-static shock symptoms similar to the .257 Weatherby in hunting applications. It travels at about the same velocity across the board as well. I have found it to be more accurate than the .257 Wby and find it highly effective for 1000 yard prairie dog shooting. I notice which 25-06 cartridge I am shooting immediately because the speed difference is quite noticeable, believe it or not.

The 25-06 AI holds four rounds in the mag and with one in the chamber, that's five. I've had to use them all a few times and was happy to have them.I shoot 100g bullets for most deer situations at 3350 fps in Rem and 3550 in AI. I personally prefer not to be limited to three shots as is required with the short mags.This cartridge feeds slick at all times and of course, cases, box magazines, receiver rails and many other components are well optimized and readily available for this 100+ year old cartridge.Case life is around 20 reloadings as long as you anneal periodically. Load data is all over and using IMR 4831, you will develop your 1000 yard precision load in about 20 rounds.

All the short mags ( 25 WSM, .25 PRC (RCM), etc.) provide velocities similar to or even a bit higher than the 25-06 AI. They all require a more expensive:
1. Magnum receiver, bolt face, (wide rails on receiver),
2. Custom chamber reamer,
3. Custom reloading dies,
4. Cases,
5. Magazine boxes.

Even in 2018, little is known about these cartridges in .25 caliber and you are likely to burn a quarter of the barrel life in developing a good load. I would definitely add the cost of the $252 Quick Load simulator to analyze optimum barrel time and propellants before burning barrels.

These cartridges all will be slightly more efficient than the longer, thinner 25-06s (e.g. 10% less powder, 10% less recoil) but these attributes become less important when any of these, including the '06's, are capable of putting all shots through one hole at 100 yards or hitting an apple at 1000 yards. The short mags with long VLD bullets will never feed as well as the '06 but with effort, you should be able to get them to work well enough to support hunting applications.

Since this update is in 2018, we now have a 128g and 131g high B.C. .25 caliber bullets and with an 8 twist barrel, they fly supersonic a mile and get to 1000 yards as fast as any other other cartridge in the world.

I'm now making a 25-06 AI with an 8 twist light varmint contour barrel 30" long. I'll shoot 87g-131g bullets (I love the 75g bulelts but am afraid this slow twist will fragment them (I will see). The smaller bullets at 3800 fps making running coyotes highly predictable and the big ones at 3200 fps making 500 yard elk highly predictable. I'll use enough barrel to safely move the chamber ahead once after the first throat is burned. All these cartridges burn throats (just like any over-bore magnum) but will last thousands of rounds for mid-range hunting applications since they shoot around .5" groups even with burned throats.

One of my 25-06s is a Weatherby Mark V Featherweight with 24" fluted barrel. It weighs 5.5 pounds. It is a pleasure to haul up and down the Rockies but its light barrel is too light and affects accuracy such that shots beyond 300 yards are really not tenable, even with epoxied forend. I'd recommend light weight aficionados use a #2 fluted barrel contour as a minimum, even if it does cost you a few ounces. Because of the tremendous long range precision capabilities of all these .25 caliber cartridges, you might want to go for even a little heavier barrel. It's a "carry" vs "shoot" trade off. I'm 70 and can still carry a little heavier rifle and I place a high value on being able to hit what I want, regardless of range.

I use the Game King bullets for ranges from 400-600 yards on deer and antelope. They do mushroom faster than most hunting bullets at magnum .25 caliber speeds but they are ideal for the slower velocities encountered at longer range. I still get about 4 feet of deer penetration from them at 500 yards but they seem to flatten game at long range. The solid mono-metal bullets do not expand at the slower long range speeds and I only use them for hunting inside of 250 yards. So far, I have found no need for them because, traditional bullets flatten game in their tracks at this speed and normally penetrate completely through anything. My #1 hunting bullet is the lead tipped 100g Hornady Interlock. I use Berger 115g bullets for 1000 yard p-dogs but have never shot a deer or antelope with them. Since it is 2018, we now have the high B.C. Hornady ELD bullets that work great at short and long range, even when they are taking game at 800 yards.

I see little difference in precision between the long action and short action receivers although I personally notice a shorter bolt stroke (also a 60 degree bolt stroke) when I have to unload a magazine fast.

The most interesting item in this thread is the fact that Rick Bin actually offered his $.02

I have a standard rem 700 25-06 and it shoots TSX's at 3316 fps and is very accurate. If you go AI be warned you will get tired of having to fire form because it takes time. money and barrel life. I would try to find a REM action and have it slab sided for weight savings and a #2 barrel fluted in 257 WBY Mag and you would get ultra speed and close to the weight you want.