This grew out of a thread on the Elk Hunting forum about how effective ultra-velocity rifles can be when they shoot all-copper bullets. Here are my pics.









It shoots moly-coated 53 grain Barnes X's at 4285 fps out of a 30 inch, (now 27) 1 in 16 twist barrel. Five shots into about a quarter of an inch at 100 yards. It's killed more than two dozen deer - half of them Mulies in clear-cuts and half White-Tails out in alfalfa fields. Many of them were very big-bodied deer. It has a higher percentage of "bang-flops" than any other cartridge I've ever used a lot - including decades of shooting such fast-steppers as 25-06's, 7mmSTW's and .300 Magnums.

The farthest deer, so far, was a big fat 5X5 Whitetail at the far end of an alfalfa field at a measured 385 yards. The shortest was a Whitetail at about 15 yards. Half of the deer were dead before the rifle settled down. Not a single deer made it even close to 50 yards after being hit.

Coyotes and ground hogs almost blow-up.

There's "fast" - then there's "FAST!!!"

Tanks Brian!

Dober

Very nice. I have a 12 twist barrel sitting around that I was trying to decide what chamber to build. Right now it's a 22-250 that shoots good, but I sort of got bored with it. This one might be a fun one to build.

Dober, does this mean I'm going to see you traipse in with an action in one hand and a "tube" in the other?? Again...
Ingwe

No tube, but I may have our friend down the hall order me a tube for the old M77/Tang. I spoke with him about the idea last Friday.

What tubes are you liking these days?

Thx
Dober

Dayum, Brian. That be's one smokin' .22.

Really a bit much for a Canuck don't ya think eh?

Dober

The big "A" talked me into a Hart...easily the nicest Bbl.Ive ever worked with...
He also likes Lilje, and Kreiger as of late...especially Kreiger.
I tend to listen to him...
Ingwe

Ya - but I need it - our deer up here aren't exactly German-Shepherd sized ya know! Even the small antlered ones have BIG bodies!



And the ones with bigger antlers - can take a man all his strength to get in the back of a truck!

Great pics Brian!

Dober

Super pic's! Thanks for sharing.

Oh, and that is a SMOKING little round!

FINE looking rifle and young man,SOUNDS LIKE A VERY CAPABLE ROUND ALSO.I'm in the process of finding out if my 22-250 likes the 53gr TSX'S also.

BCBrian
Very nice.I've been a CHeetah fan for many years.But always in vermin mode.Often thought a winterized version with a copper bullet would make a sweet addition.Ackley said that a Swift with a copper bullet killed deer size game much quicker than normal rounds.Some very old targets for ya.


What are you making cases out of.
dave

BC,

Great post and pics. I have played witht the 22 Cheetah mk 1 and Mkll versions and really enjoyed them. If 22cal was legal here would not hesitate to use a fast 22 on them with the Barnes bullets. I have some TSX 22's that I will load into my 22-250AI soon. I might have to buy a Oregon Deer tag just so I can try it out. Told the wifey last week that I really need to move somewhere where I can shoot more than one or two big game animals per year. A rifle looney cannot survive on one deer and maybe one elk per year!

Cool rifle and cartridge Brian, you ever nail a blackie with that combo? I'm sure of what the results would be if you do.

Nice rifle Brian, I hafta say even though I have zero experience with that cartridge I say I have always been impressed with how it looks and what the mags say about it.

you should talk to Ringman Brian, he has just finished a rifle he calls the .224 MBOC. that thing is smokin fast as well, and shoots light out from what i understand. i have never shot it, but i have seen it in person. it needs a new stock to be anywhere near as nice as yours though.

Must be nice.

I couldn't get the 53gr tsx's to stabilize in my CHeetah.

Beautiful rifle dude....

I imagine that thing is pretty cool to shoot. How much and what kind of powder are you using?

I yet retain a .250" neck 1-14" Shilen in CHeetah. A 1-8" 223AI smokes it downrange.

Tough to beat a fast twist 22-250AI,if a guy thinks he needs to play the Fast 22 Game. make it no turn.

I had the best results with H4350. It could take all the powder the case could hold when the Barnes bullets were moly-coated. Don't quote me on this - as I can't get to my records right now - but if memory serves me, I think the load I settled on was 52 grains.

I don't know if having a 1 in 16 twist helps with such high velocity rounds - but perhaps it does. I ordered that twist on a hunch.

Thanks for the kind comments everyone.

I had this combo made to explore the outer reaches of velocity with a small bore - and seeing how it would work on deer - once all-copper bullets came out.

It has exceeded every expectation I had.

It will be used by my three daughters as their deer rifle.

Very cool rifle.

Does it foul badly?

Do the bullets exit? If not,do they fragment?

Thanks for posting.

The rifle has a very smooth, almost totally non-fouling barrel.

These bullets never fragment. Most of them go totally though - regardless of the angle, or distance, and they create a lot of internal mayhem along the way. The very few bullets that I have recovered - looked just like the ones pictured in the Barnes adds.

It is the most interesting rifle I own - it seemly violates the rules of caliber - as related to killing power. Ultra-velocity coupled with the right bullet - can do amazing things!

I think it took non-fragmenting, homogenous, all-copper bullets to truly show the potential of the various ultra-velocity rounds. Even though P.O. Ackley found, and wrote about, nothing killing feral burros, as fast as a 220 Swift did - even with the bullets he had available back then.

But - until Barnes all-copper bullets came along - I wasn't comfortable trying to repeat his experiment. It seemed too hit-and-miss for me. I had heard too many horror stories of bullet failure when ultra-velocity rounds were shot into big-game. I respect big-game animals too much, to experiment too radically on them.

With these bullets - in this caliber - I'd be totally comfortable using them on any game that was under, say, about 300 to 400 lbs - based on having seen what I've seen. Burros are a lot bigger than most deer. The non-recoil of this round also allows most people (like my little girls) to achieve pin-point precision in placing the bullets where they should go.

I think this factor is more important than most people realize - and I think it's something a lot of other people don't give enough consideration to.

Sounds like P.O. is talking......
Never did say what case your running.The 308 BR or a 243?
dave

BCBrian,

What twist?


A pard has a 220 Wtby Rocket in the works with quarry like yours in mind, or speedgoats in certain states.

VERY NICE btw...

Oooppps, missed the twist. Thanks for the info, and nice update BTW.

I use the regular 243 case. I want healthy ignition.

My twist is 1 in 16.

I think that is, in part, responsible for the speed and accuracy I've been getting.

I shoot a 22-250 AI . I bet I can get real close to that MV if I was shooting the same bullet.Barrel life for me is mighty short but what about for that dragon on steroids ?

What is the BC of the Bullet your shooting? I shoot a 8"twist 22-250 AI I can comfortably launch 80gr Berger at 3350 FPS. My rifle is a flat shooter but I only blew up a Fox with it and that's it.

Ironworker,
Somewhere after 600 rounds velocity drops off some but the accuracy usually does not.After 800 or so I usually just add another grain of powder.Somewhere after 1000 the throat is just toast.Time to replace.
Any of the 22-250 AIs I ran against could usually get close in velocity but typically accuracy falls off pushing them that hard.
Any AI that i've seen running over 4100 just doesn't drill a hole like a CHeetah will.
I tried 53g X bullets out of my 1-16 twisted Cheetah and could not get the bullets to stabilize.At 50 yards I could get 1.5 inch groups.But the bullets were going through the paper sideways.I've often thought it would be alot of fun to try to dust a chuck with that load,just to see what a X bullet humping along at 4200 would do to a chuck,tumbling like that.
Im acutally kinda surprised a 1-16 twisted barrel is working with the X.Didnt in mine.
Out to about 600 or 700 yards there is very little that can beat Cheetah performance.And thats with 52g match bullets.Not 69g turds.
dave.

A 23" 22-250AI will make 4K with 50's and poke them in knots.

The only edge the CHeetah holds,is if one likes to piss up ropes. And that's being kind.

I used to shoot chucks with a guy who used a cheeta back in the late 90's. I still have maybe a hundred 308BR cases he left over here- thought I'd use the small primer as thats what everyone was using who built one, they were crazy popular for groundhogs around here. I was thinking of making one, but like so many projects...well...you know

Never used one did you.I understand.
dave

I have had a couple of both. The Cheetah is faster, the 22-250 AI is very, very close in my experience. When my 22-250AI rifling gets tired (this year if the sun ever comes out and I get to go vaporize some rodents......) it will easily become a 22-243 which is essentially an easier to load for Cheetah and then, when the throat gets rough there it will be easy enough to push everything a bit further out again and have a 22/6mm AI. This will be the fastest of the bunch, especially with the heavier bullets, but the throat on this one will be lucky to survive a single season. Then, on goes a new tube in 22-250 AI and away we go again!

All three of the above are used in and perform essentially the same fashion with minimal real world difference from one to the other.

Nawww...I didn't use one,I had two(yet retain only one as per prior mention).

I'm all ears if you think you can tell me something about the CHeetah I didn't know 15yrs ago and counting.

The differences are stark,in that 22-250AI hulls are easily realized via press of the trigger and it's svelte trim length affords many latitudes inherent the higher BC projectiles,as per mag/throat geometry.

The 22-6mm or 22-6mmAI is Junk +P. Someone who doesn't fret COAL latitude,doesn't do much shooting(obviously). Differences are stark,in a multitude of areas.



For conversation the 22-250AI dupes Swift case capacity,with a .300 COAL savings due the hull alone. SAAMI 22-250 far left,40 degree version farright,Swift betwixt with 75A-Max being a constant. The Swift at 2.815" typical confines swallows ogives in comparison.(hint)



The CHeetah is akin to bell bottoms,in that it is an answer to a question that doesn't exist.

Interesting. Why would you say a 22/6mm AI is Junk +P....any other 22 caliber round pushing 75 gr bullets in the 3900+ vicinity?

Obviously,the most basic concepts in regards to case length + bullet length,being housed within a repeater's magbox and in conjunction with a harmonious throating arrangement escapes you.

The pics are well beyond conclusive...give 'em another peek and cypher on the obvious.

I reckon I can hang more,if the jist continues to escape you.

Just 15 years.Piker time.The littlestick impression is kinda cute.
There are no flys on the 22-250 AI, fine round.Less work I agree.I didnt want to give the impression That I dont like it.I like them all.I have two Cheetahs am building a third and have either set up or helped to set up about 5 others.All shot bugholes over 4200.Im thinking 308 BR brass has pretty much gone the way of the doodoo bird.So its pretty much ballistic gack as Dober would say.
dave

Hey if a guy is into pissing up ropes,a tightnecked CHeetah is a wonderous vehicle. I'd rather be on the top looking down(pissing down the rope),than be on the bottom looking up. I've still no qualm crafting CHeetah hulls via R/P 243Win parents and the BR/UBBR never showed me anything.

In a capacious .224,the 22-250AI is very,very tough to whoop,if weighing the whole enchilada.

Especially when assembled with some thought. My A5 penchant is a given,though it's nice to pay an m40A1 handle some respect.



140MOA of ele is a trifle overkill on something that gobbles up distance so easily,but it do track nicely and the lack of recoil makes trace/impact a breeze to catch from most positions/distances.

Some COAL illuminations.(pun intended)



L-R:

22CHeetah,22-250AI,Swift(SAAMI),7-08,6mmRem,6mmRem Ackley Improved,25-284. For those who miss the obvious,not all share like COAL latitudes. For conversation,a dummy 22-06AI is far left.

All things ain't equal.

Loaded length means little to me.All mine are vermin rigs and are single shots.The 308 BR case is actually a few .001s smaller than the 243 just ahead of the extractor groove.All true Cheetah reamers reflect this.Nice pic.Always liked a GP handle.
dave

A singleshot Killing Rifle never made any sense to me,nor could I argue in favor of painting one's self purposely into a corner. A singleshot slow twist CHeetah,is alotta paint and in a small corner.

Haven't ever seen CHeetah dies,that wouldn't size in accordance to a CHeetah chamber,nor have I seen modest butt diameter differences matter. Will a reformed and neck turned 243Win hull form fully and completely in a CHeetah chamber? Yes...and with every press of the trigger.



Will a PN 24" 3-grooved 1-8" 22-250AI shudder at the thought of gunning alongside a CHeetah of any twist or barrel length? Nope. Will it giggle long and loud as it feeds from it's belly and drives knots at nosebleed distances? Yep. Is an HS DBM and it's extry COAL latitude superflous in the application? Nope...bullets is getting longer,not shorter,in this day and age.

If the CHeetah was a Better Mouse trap I'd be all over it,but she's a series of concessions and such things are tough to get giddy about.

The A1/HTG/GP remains one of my least favorite handles,but I suffer nostalgic romance now and again. The A5 smokes it hard.

A 24" 3-grooved 1-8" Lilja 22-250AI in a BDL,ain't too hard to suffer. Nor is a 23" 1-7.7" Kreiger in a fluted #4 Classic(HS DBM again).



Excellence ain't an accident.

Gotta admit, I giggle every time I see that hat.......grin

Good to have you back bigstick.I thought you got banned.
dave

Where we at on singleshot turnbolt,slow twisted CHeetah's being all the "rage"?(grin)

Welcome back from me as well. I recognized the writing style immediately and the markings on the rifles were the final giveaway.

As for back into the conversation. I also formed my Cheetah brass from 243. Snap to do and worked great. I also am a fan of the repeaters. If I wanted a single shot, I would start with a good falling block action.

So far, my 22 Cheetahs and 22-250AI's have been 1 in 12 twists and I have been really fun on rodents and coyotes out to 500 yards. The gunsmith that has been doing some work for me of late shoots some amazing groups at 1,000 yards with 1 in 8 twist 22/6mm AI rifles so I will be giving this a try soon.

A 24" 22-250AI 1-9" will push the 75A-Max at 3500fps on the nose(moly/'15). With a 250yd zero(+1.6" at 100yds),it burns sub 18 minutes to the 1000yd line and drifts but 6 minutes in a full 10mph at the same distance. She's less than 26MOA to the 1200yd line and right at 1500fps,which'd be a ways from slipping subsonic.

That assuming 4500' elevation,which's prolly a happy "average".

The .224" 75A-Max rates building a rifle around,though the 22-6mmAI would be amongst my last choices. She's splendid in a 2.5" COAL 223AI turnbolt.

BC, how long does it take to go through all those steps to get a piece of brass

I can't remember.

With the exception of one coyote and a couple of groundhogs - I only shoot a shot or two most years to check to see it's on target (it's never moved) and then all I've ever shot is one shot per deer.

I never intended it as a varmint rifle. It's a rifle that probably averages between 5 and 10 shots a year - max. Some years I didn't even bother to check the zero - I just shot it three times - and killed three deer. It was meant to be a deer rifle.

Once I found the load I liked - I spent an afternoon about 15 years ago loading up a couple of hundred rounds. I'm not even close to needing to do it again.

I have a lot of other different rifles that like to go out on dates with me too - I can't give my heart to just one. The next bunch of game I shoot will be with my 375 H&H - just to get used to it. I hope it kills as well as the CHeetah does.

The CHeetah will likely become my three daughter's main rifle.

Impressive numbers.And would surely be dandy beyond 600 yards.
But my working rifles seldom go beyond 600.
Im thinking you said to me many years ago that in the days before lazers something that shot that flat was very useful.
I still find it to be so and worth the effort for me.
Theres just something about a hand swaged 52g benchrest bullet running 4000+fps,impacting a 10lb woodchuck through a 30x spotting scope, I'll never get out of my system.And I've seen it many hundereds of times.
For the kind of vermin work we do here,I still to this day, dont think it can be beat.No pissing no ropes.
dave

I use a Neil Jones die body with replacable neck bushings and take BR brass down in 4 steps.No lube.Then you have to get the neck the right size for turning.Then you have to turn it.Then you have to fireform it.Should be able to get a 243 case in one hit.The 243 case will save you some work .
We have hunted blowing cases.Its that accurate.Kinda fun killing stuff and blowing cases at the same time.
dave

BCBrian,
So out of all the rifles you have shot big game with.Would you say your CHeetah is a better one shot killer?Alittle reading for ya.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/22x64.html
dave

Rest assured,as distances close,performance ain't compromised.

You taste a fast twisted 75A-Max and get back to me,regarding Goo and slipping conditions.

You'll be beating the ends of your slow twist tubes shut and throwing them over a cliff,so noone else has to suffer similar fate.(grin)

Close as I can get right now.A 1-8 twisted 243.

and

I just picked up a box of Barnes 62 grain Varmint Grenades
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYigC49tnh8
Be interesting to see of they will shoot with my 65g Hollister BR bullets.

Last summer I did pretty good with the 6mmPPC.Really shines for 300 and under.


and

Its all good.
dave

An 8" 243win is a rather capable machine. Feed her any 105 A-Max yet?

As a bare minimum,increased rotational velocity do in fact increase the carnage. 50's via 1-7" at 4K,launch Goo with aplomb...but the 75's steal the show for downrange thunder.

A 105g A-Max eh?Ill keep that in mind.Haven't had much time to monkey with the 243 yet.But its turn will come.
Grossest bullet I ever saw was a Sierra 63g Semi Spitzer out of a Swift.Ballistic turd for down range but we had a unique name for it.
We called it the window bullet.
Every chuck we hit,it put a window in.A big one.
dave

Great article! Yes - for me, the CHeetah shooting 53 grain Barnes X's - is the fastest one-shot deer killer I've shot.

I won't deny that some of that, might be the manner in which I usually hunt deer with that rifle. Not many snap shots, rarely have I taken a shot with that rifle - at a running deer. Although I did shoot at one buck running, head-up towards a doe-scent lure at the end of a field at about 40 yards away. It died so fast, it buried it's nose into the freshly ploughed field when it dived forward - right up to the antlers. It fell like it had been electrocuted - and never even twitched. But other than a few occasions, this rifle's almost always pointed at an unsuspecting deer out in a clear-cut or an alfafa field.

But the wound cannels and animal upset is a thing to witness.

I use different rifles to carry around in the woods. So, in the woods, with other rifles, my shots are sometimes less-than-perfect.

When shooting the CHeetah, I try and act like a sniper, slow and deliberate - off of a makeshift rest when I can. So far I've had good bullet placement every time I've shot it. And the result has been quite a few dead deer - very quickly - every time the trigger has been pulled.

Just what Parker Ackley said about 60 years ago.I thought you'd like the GS thing.I'd like to try the high speed copper bullet stuff on the hogs.Sooner or later I will.
dave

It's neat experimentation. If you investigate the 257 STW - there is a story about a guy dropping a big bison bull, in it's tracks, with a shot through both shoulders with a 100 grain TSX launched at over 4000fps.

Ultra-high velocity cartridges - coupled with homogenous expanding bullets, can produce interesting results.

The 235gr .375" Speer nukes all outta proportion to it's relative size. The .257" 100SGK is a virtual BOMB.

Beware,the .243" 105'max WILL hook you.

I can relate to the deer plowing up dirt with his nose scenario. A few years back (quite a few, actually.... grins...) I shot a modest 4 point mule deer buck that had just been shot at by my cousin one draw over (he missed) and as he topped the hill to try to get by me and saw me he really hit the afterburners. He was also running down a slight slope in a freshly plowed wheat field and when I smacked him at 75 paces with my 257WBY pushing a 100gr Barnes moly coated x bullet at 3800fps. The very moment the trigger broke he nosedived and slid about 20 feet! At this point in my hunting life I had not seen all that many DRT / Bangflop deer kills. I was duly impressed. Truly, great speed and a solid monometal expanding bullet are an amazing and deadly combo.

I've done lotsa stuff with my 257Wby's and 100x's,that can't even be done(according to many).