Here's a thought experiment for y'all. Which would you go with, .338-06 AI, or .338 WSM, and why?

For me, either makes more sense than a .338 WM. Lighter, shorter rifle, and plenty of power for anything in North America including at least defensive duty against the biggest bears. My feeling is that the 225 gr. mono bullets will do anything the older 250 grainers (say, Partitions;) could do.

I'm sure some would say just go with the straight .338-06. I feel it's a little anemic compared to the "ideal" case capacity, and I'm attracted to the better brass life with either of the other alternatives. Whichever one I end up choosing, I'll use a M70 Classic action as the starting point.

As I see the tradeoffs, it seems with the .338 WSM I'd have a short action and a bit more powder capacity, at the expense of one less round in the magazine. Both of them have been accused of feeding issues, and I've heard claims that both can be made to feed well.

I suppose the other thing is I haven't looked into the .338 WSM dies, but I have seen the 40 deg. Ackley .338-06 dies available.

So, thoughts?

I did the 338-06Ai over the 338WSM for a few reasons. I got the dies dirt cheap from a guy that his smith [bleep] up his chamber, made it a Gibbs and I had an 06 action sitting here trued and ready to barrel. I got a 338-06Ai reamer, print and guage for sale if you are interested.

My Model 70 SS Classic 338 Win Mag weighs 8.37 with scope. And I'm not sure I would want it any lighter than that. Both of the cartridges you mention are wildcats. If that's not an issure for you, then have at her. Personally I don't see the advantage though. With both of them, you are trying to approach a known commodity, in terms of power, as the 338 WM. If so, why not just go with it? Lot's better choice of rifles, and easy ammo access. The 225 grain bullet of any make is going to really rock in terms of recoil, so personally I want some gun weight. In terms of resale, the 338 WM will always sell better than the wildcats too.

My thought's? Your wasting your time and money when you can go out and buy a rifle that will do everything you want to accomplish. I've used my 338 on Whitetails to Grizzlies, and it works just fine. Can't see where either of the wildcats you mention would be better in any practical way. As to the advantages of a short action, I think they exist more in the mind than real world performance. If I was bound and determined to own a short 338 mag, I'd go with the Ruger. As to Wildcats, they just don't appeal to me that much. Seems to me your just reinventing the wheel.

Yep

I do need to find a reamer either way, my smith only has the straight .338-06. Is yours the "official" 40 deg. shoulder AI, same as Redding dies? I'll take first dibs, depending on price. Send a PM please...

The same argument can be made in almost every caliber.

Why do a 223 AI when you can do a 22-250, or why do a .......

They don't always make sense.

Whatever floats YOUR boat.

Nope. I'd be quite satisfied with a 225 gr. bullet at 2650, which is a bit above .338-06 A-Square levels, but well below .338 WM.


How much it 'rocks' depends on MV, stock design, muzzle brake or lack of same, etc. Do you think an 8 lb. .338-06 AI will kick more than my 7 lb. .300 WSM Montana? ;-)

Further, I won't be shooting 225 grain bullets all the time, or even most of the time. 180-215 grainers will do fine here in the South. But, it'll be nice knowing that if I do head to AK, which is a goal of mine, I'll be set.

(If I actually go to specifically hunt brown bears, I'll likely get a .375 of some flavor. Just FYI.)


The .338 RCM did occur to me as well, and I might take another look at that. It would solve the brass headstamp issue. The factory ammo for that is oriented towards 20" barrels, and I'm looking at 23"-25", but given that I handload anyhow I guess it's not an issue. .30-06 brass would be a lot cheaper component than either of the short mag brass, of course.

I have no desire to shoot at big game over 400 yards anyhow, so probably the lower recoil, muzzle blast and cost of reloading push things in favor of the .338-06 AI.

Resale value is of no concern, as I have no intention of selling once I get this built.

Logistics favor a 223AI and I can still fire factory ammo in it. AI's ain't true wildcats.

Steely, wasn't dissing one of your favs, just using it as an example to try and make a point.( ya, I run one too)

Which is, in your caliber of choice, pick a weight you wanna run, and pick a case that runs it at the velocity (and recoil) your looking for. Don't choose a 300 Savage if your after Weatherby velocities.

On another note, I sold my 338WM and built a 338-06 AI instead. Iffen that won't do it, I can fall back on my 375.

Hell, don't bother me none.

I did some nosing around the Hogdon site for load data.

The .338 RCM looks to be quite anemic (top vel load):
225 GR. - HDY IB - BL-C(2) - 58.0gr - 2689 FPS - 61,500 PSI

Compared to the unimproved .338-06 (BLC-2 wasn't the best powder, but it was very close):
225 GR. SPR SPBT - BL-C(2) - 55.0gr - 2671 FPS - 62,900 PSI

I'm assuming both were tested in a 24" barrel...I have no idea how Hornady can claim 2850 FPS for its factory 225 gr. .338 RCM ammo...

At any rate, if I go short/fat it'll definitely be the .338 WSM, with around 65 gr. of powder capacity with the 225. I'm leaning more and more (back) towards the .338-06 AI though.

Whatever works for ya! I can load down, or go up. If the 338-06 AI trips your trigger, then go for it. Me, I'm more interested in hunting than worrying about a few feet per second one way or the other.

I could definately see the advantage to an Ackley over another wildcat though, if the caliber you were Ackleyizing was a common production cartridge. The 338-06 ain't though. The 338 WSM makes zero sense to me. I'd choose the 325 WSM over the 338 if that's what you're after.

However, there's a saying I've heard before, goes something like this. "To each his own..."

I ran numbers on the WM vs. '06 quite a while ago and was rather astonished at the results.

I just built an '06 and had assumed I'd someday want a WM, but found that on an apples-to-apples comparison of the fastest loads for each w/ the 200 gr Interlock the difference was something like 150 fps (show me an elk that'd tell the difference between the two!) or something like 5% more velocity for 18% more powder. Huh?

If you're dedicated to a wildcat I'd go w/ the AI, personally. If you're looking for greater efficiency I'd go w/ the AI or straight-up A-Square, personally, WM under consideration or not.

The RCM is just an '06 in a short action that'll be a distant memory within a decade, IMO.

The case capacity is the same, so it's no surprise that the velocities are too (except in factory pixie dust loads).


But I've seen your quote before . . . oops, maybe it was




_

I have hunting tools that'll do the job now, a custom rifle is more a labor of love, no?

As for up or down, I honestly see no meaningful difference between a 225 gr. bullet at 2700 (which I should easily hit with the AI) and 2750, which is Hornady's factory .338 WM load.

Now, the one unfair thing there is both of those velocities are from a 24" barrel, where many .338 WMs have a 26" barrel. It used to be that magnums that usually sported a 26" barrel got to report stats from those barrels, but times have changed I guess. How long is the barrel on your lightweight .338 WM? Also, what contour? Heck, post some pictures! lol


The selection of 8 mm. bullets is terrible compared with .338. The .338 WSM may make zero sense to you, but to me it makes a lot more sense than the .338 Federal, or the .338 RCM. I wish Winchester would add it to the factory WSM stable. However, with modern bullets I think it's actually overkill for any NA game, except possibly the biggest bears. I'd still feel secure toting a .338-06 (AI or not) in big bear country, personally.

I'll fireform a couple hundred brass or so, and that should last me for, um, long enough. ;-) I might even just get some Weatherby .338-06 brass, so I have a headstamp and get some range time while fireforming. Otherwise, I'll use the "Cream of Wheat" method with .30-06 brass.


True enough. Here's to hoping you rack up many future trophies with your .338 WM. :-)

My 338 has the factory 26" barrel. I don't use 225 bullets myself. I use 210 Nosler's for everything. Whitetails, Blacktails, Elk and Grizzlies. The 225 Nosler's I've handloaded have run about 2820-30fps. I could go faster, but I'd just be adding recoil.

Here's a pic of it and a small Whitetail I shot a few years ago.





It's nothing fancy, but it's very accurate. Chambers and ejects shells perfectly. I added a recoil pad and had some trigger work done. Most of the animals I've shot with it have dropped at the shot with the 210 Nosler's. The Grizzly I shot in September went about 50 yards and needed only one 210 Nosler.

Had my gunsmith last year build me a 338-06AI with a new barrel placed on a Sako m75 Greywolf. Shoots 225gr Accubonds @ 0.5" groups so far and thats just with new brass to be fireformed and break-in of barrel. Plan on trying 225gr TTSX's too. Gunsmith ordered me Redding dies.

Love the rifle. I posted last fall(November) a topic about my new rifle.

Had my gunsmith last year build me a 338-06AI with a new barrel placed on a Sako m75 Greywolf. I went with the Ackley version just to be different and by the reccomendation by my gunsmith. Shoots 225gr Accubonds @ 0.5" groups so far and thats just with new brass to be fireformed and break-in of barrel. Plan on trying 225gr TTSX's too. Gunsmith ordered me Redding dies.

Love the rifle. I posted last fall(November) a topic about my new rifle.

Yeah, you're right; time will tell.

Of course it does bear mentioning that the 284 lives on mostly as fodder for reloading its more popular necked-down wildcats like the 6.5-, or 25-, or 6mm-284s.

But you're right, time may tell a completely different story.

338 win mag is the origional short mag. no need ofr improvement

Agree completely with JBabcock on this.You can build a 338 that will come in at about 8 pounds,with a snappy 23" barrel.And if full house loads in the 338 rock you a bit,swap over to RL15 and 200-225 gr bullets at reduced velocity for the same velocities the AI or the WSM wildcats will get loaded to the gills.Less recoil, factory brass,plenty of lethal effect....what's not to like?

I could care less about short actions,since I don't understand what all the fuss is about.YMMV.

I have a Sako Av in 338-06 AI and a MRC actioned 338 WSM. I guess I like them both. I also have a DA 97 in 338-06 std and recently acquired a 338 RCM....that one is cute.

It isn't about being practical it is about getting what you want or something new to try, I don't get to do that with women any more so I guess it's guns.

I have AI'd every caliber and some are better cartridges than the parent from many angles but in certain calibers the standard is too good to mess with. The 6.5-06 and 336-06 are a couple of them. The 338 WSM was the WSM that never was. (Say that fast) and ballistically it is one helluva a nice package but it is a bastard among the forgotten. It is so easy to make brass from 300 or 325 brass and the Redding has dies at about $100 for it, (338-300 WSM), about the same as AI 338-06 dies.

I guess it would depend on the action you're converting. My Sako is unaltered and feeds like a champ. I lost one round in the box to four. It was originally a 270. The WSM needs a WSM action, to convert a 308 or such world take more work I would think.

I am a certified 33 loonietic, and so have worked with the 338/06 (not the AI) and the 338 WSM and the 338 (as well as a couple of bigger ones).

Personally, for me the short action thingy doesn't do a thing for me. The smallish amount of weight saved and or the bolt throw being a bit shorter doesn't mean anything to me.

The 338/06 feeds like a dream and mine with a 23" tube would do with a 225 about what a 338 would do with the 250. The WSM closes the gap even more.

My WSM feeds well, but having 3 down is a tish bit tight but do able. (M70, Schneider tube cut to 21")

I do like the fact that the 338/06 can handle more rounds down as I don't shoot very well....grin

After years of using the .340 I found the 338/06 to be a welcome and wonderful change. Way more user friendly.

As for shooting at range, any of the 3 can be made to work to 500 yds with no problemo with dotz and or the Burris BP. In my 338/06 I ran the BP and had no problem in sighting it to kill elk to 500 with a 250 Nozler @ 2500 fps.

If I were in your shoes (you already have the dies) and wanted to play a bit with a round then I'd do the AI version. It'll give you plenty of smoke and will be very easy to form cases with.

Best of luck to ya!

Dober

I know what they say about liars figuring, but I took the fastest loads for each cartridge to compare the two. Check out these numbers:

338 WM, 200 gr SPR SP, 74 gr IMR 4350, 2979 fps

338-06 A-Square, 200 gr Interlock, 59.5 gr BLC-(2), 2856

That is a difference of 123 fps and 14.5 gr of powder, or 4% increase in velocity from the '06 to the WM for a 24% increase in powder charge.

Remember that when calculating recoil that powder charge is second most important factor behind bullet weight.

Lest one think that the difference is larger between the two with the 250s, check this:

338 WM, 250 gr. Interlock, 67.5 gr H 4350, 2657 fps

338-06 A-Square, 250 gr. Interlock, 59.8 gr H 4350, 2540 fps

Thats 117 fps for 7.7 gr or 5% increase in velocity for 13% increase in charge weight.

The distance between these two cartridges power-wise is miniscule, and the AI version is going to narrow that margin to next to nothing.

Now don't get me wrong, if I were planning a once in a lifetime trip to Alaska and had to choose between the two there are advantages to the WM like ammo availability that offset these numbers to some extent, but even so, they're pretty hard to argue with. At least for me.

I'd figured that I'd someday "need" a WM after building an '06 as a winter project this year, but after running these numbers thought better of it. That having been said, I love the challenge a wildcat offers from a handloading perspective.

If I were going for the "practical," I'd stick w/ my 30'06 Springfield.

Really??? And i thought that the 350 rem mag was the original "short" mag, huh go figure....

Nah... everybody knows that the 257 AI came before the 350 RM .

I have a 338-06 built on a S&W "C" (Husqvarna 8000/9000 action) with a 23" barrel that I really like. It shoots 210 grain Partitions really well and I think that I'd feel well armed for anything from antelope through grizzlies with this rifle/cartridge/bullet combination.

Since a 338-06 isn't a target or varmint cartridge, I think that the small gain in case capacity and the advantage of less trimming of the AI version is probably not very significant to most people. I've owned my 338-06 for over 10 years and have yet to fire the 500th round through it. The original set of 100 Winchester/Olin cases is still in use and the only time that they were trimmed was after the 1st time they were fired.

I built this rifle, along with its twin in 256 Newton, so that I could hunt North America armed with S&W firearms; revolver, rifle, and shotgun. For some reason I thought that it would be fun/interesting/cool to do that, but now it doesn't seem so fun/interesting/cool to do so. I was thinking in terms of a S&W 624 in 44 Special, S&W Cs in 22-250, 256 Newton, 30-06, and 338-06, and a S&W 1000 in 12 Gauge.

Jeff

Now that PreciousLiberty has bought the 338-06 in the classifieds, his sleepless nights of pondering cartridges are over, temporarily......

I'd be willing to bet that he started pondering another cartridge or two before he even bought that '06 .

Ha, well good to see this started an interesting thread at least.

Actually I'm done pondering cartridges for a bit, time to do some load workup now...hunting season starts next month!

I ended up not going the AI route. That means I won't have to worry about feeding issues or reduced mag capacity. I guess I'm glad to see a couple recent posts supporting that idea, at least taking the rifle to Africa will be a possibility if I ever make the trip. The data at Hodgdon's site make the regular .338-06 look pretty good.

I won't miss being able to load up to .338 WM levels. If I need something more than the .338-06, it'll be to hunt big bears or the Big 5, and it'll be a .375.

I pretty much just used H4350 and R15 in my 338/06, for what that's worth.

And the 200 Horn sp was big time scarry accurate in mine, of course it's also been so in every type of 33 I've ever shot it thru.

As for big bruins, I'd gladly take the 338/06 after them.

Dober

Well PL, you have started on a subject near and dear to my heart. Mine started out a 284 win. on the L61R action! I already had a 284 win on a FN action, so I thought I don't need 2 of them so lets build something cool! I was shooting a lot of pigs in central CA. and wanted a gun for the big ones! I had just miss getting a 338/06 on a 721 rifle with dies, brass, and some bullets for 400.00! So I set out to built one on the SAKO. Bought the barrel, reamer and dies and went to work! I have been shooting the Ackley for some 15 years now and never looked back! I shoot mostly Nosler 210 gr. Part. in my 338/06 AI, you would be suprised to see how flat this round shoots! If I ever quit working and get to hunt, I am ready for whatever comes down the trail!

The 338-06 needs no "improving" IME... been there, done that. Great round.

If you want more than the 338-06 get a 338 WM. Been there done that too.

The 338 WSM is a nice oddity... have certainly shot Dobers, but the reality is it's a poorer feeding 338-06+P that holds less down. It's not as good as the 338-06 or the 338 WM IMO... FWIW.

Well said.

I'm in the load development stage and have done a bit of research.

Here is the link to a couple of threads that might be helpful to you:

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3099470/1

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/3103353/1

The most accurate load I've worked up so far has been the 200 gr Interlock w/ 54 gr of RL-15. I didn't get good results accuracy-wise with H380, but found that my POS Hornady FLS was oversizing necks causing runout, so that may have been the cause.

Another helpful tool I always utilize is this:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=794498

I've been very intrigued by the velocity results listed for BLC-(2) and the big game potential of the 215 gr SGK. I got decent accuracy results from 59 gr of BLC-(2), the 200 gr Ballistic Silvertip, and CCI-250s, and am working more with those right now.

If you'd like me to email you the information I've collected I'd be happy to. Just send me a PM w/ your email.

I'm really interested to see what you come up with.

I have used R-19 but found IMR 4350 to be the best in my SAKO 26" bbl. I have never had a feeding problem with the L61R action with the 338/06 AI! Compressed loads and never a sign of pressure! I don't quote weights, but from 100 yrds to 350 hardly need any hold over! Just one mans doings, the improved part is not for speed, its for consistency, and that equals tight groups!

Thanks for all the load data and other thoughts guys.

Unfortunately, the seller has backed out and I'm probably going to wait 'til next year to build a rifle.

Nothing too interesting on GB or GA, please PM me if you run into a M70 CRF type action based .338-06 (AI) for sale.

I will stay with the 338 Win. It is about as well balanced as any caliber I know of and its in the same action as the 338-06 and I can't tell any difference in recoil between the two..If I want one of the other .338 calibers mentioned then I could just load down to those specs..My present 338 weighs 8.5 lbs. with a 24 inch barrel. I have trouble deciding if I like the .338 or the 9.3x62 the best. I suppose the .338 would win out on that one??

Probably if push came to shove I'd go with the .338 Win. as my one and only caliber. It has served me so well and I have shot up to a Cape Buffalo with it.

Bottom line is it will do anything any other .338 caliber will do and it does it better, all things considered, IMO..

My two chosen loads are the 210 Nosler at 3005 FPS and the 300 gr. Woodligh at 2500 FPS, both shoot to the same POI other than the 210 is an inch higher, but that works perfect putting the 210 gr. 3" high at 100 and the 300 gr. 2 inches high at 100 with no change in the sight in...

PL-

Very sorry to hear that man!

This 338 has been an absolute joy through which to develop loads.