All,
Very interesting thread on AR regarding Pac-Nor barrels: here The comments on the use of imported steel has myself concerned as my last barrel from them only took a week to receive. I've had enough set-backs on my 350RM project to write a book and now this issue crops up. As a matter of fact, the Pac-Nor barrel is the only component that did not get the axe and now these concerns crop up!!! Comments?

MtnHtr

(putting on my flame suit)

My smith won't use them anymore, he's had to send too many back. He says the steel they're using now is junk, full of holes and pits....he has a bore scope.



Just passing on the info and i'm sure I'll get roasted for it.

I'm a guy who may use three custom barrels in a lifetime and am not prone to flame folks anyway. I usually lurk here with few posts. But I am watching the PAC-NOR thing here and on A R. I am glad to know about this. I will look at Lilja, Kreiger, Douglas, Shilen, and friends. I will hold off on PAC-NOR for now. I want to see this solved. I'm hoping PAC-NOR can get back on track because they had a solid reputation. I recently bought a used Douglas barrel for a M600 based pig stopper in .458 American. I had been looking to buy a barrel from PAC-NOR. I will wait it out and maybe use them later for a medium bore project. Rusty Z

Steel can have inclusions. It's possible that more than one section can have them but it's usually scattered and rare.

The cost of material in a rifle barrel must be about $15 if it's SS.

It's unfortunate that anyone is disapointed. We need the best barrels and it seems that Pac Nor has made them.

I have no Pac Nor barrels. They are not a name here in the Northeast with position target shooters.

I don't use Pac Nor barrels. I put my name on the barrels I install, these rifles get traded around and if they don't shoot good groups, most owners think its the smith's fault. Hart, Krieger, Shilen make what I like. The prices are very close so why go for second best.

Dan

I've had several Pac-Nor barrels and all of them shot well, fouled very little. The latest barrel I bought last summer looks real good but then I don't have a borescope either.

When I look back over the last few years, I've heard of a bad barrel or two from Hart, Shilen and recently Lilja. Complaints mainly were the barrels lacked accuracy (sun MOA). One complaint was about a Hart barrel that a rifling land washed out a few inches out from the chamber and Hart refused to replace it, this told to me by one of our forum gunwriters (who I will keep anonymous <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

I feel all the great barrel makers put out a bad one or dud once in awhile but the trick is choosing one that has the lowest "dud ratio". These latest rumours about Pac-Nor are not good and I hope they are resolved. I'd go with a Krieger but they won't make a SS barrel in the contours I like to use. I've heard H.S. Precision makes excellent cut rifling SS barrels but this was awhile back. What's a guy to do?

MtnHtr

I've had nothing but routinely excellent "luck" with their tubes.

I'd concur that a barrel is no better than the raw materials used and if it is suspect,then the whole enchilada is compromised...................

S,
Thinking out loud here........... I'm wondering if they had a raw material supply problem and tried out a run of import steel? In any event, Pac Nor is capable of building a quality tube and would correct the import steel problem real quick (if that was indeed the problem). I'm confident Chris would correct any quality control or supply problems real fast if brought to his attention. The barrel making business is too competitive too allow laxed QC issues. This might be the best time to purchase a barrel from em as they will really be watching QC in light of all the rumours floating around.

I ran a patch down my 35cal tube this morning and it feels even all the way down, bore is bright and shiney all the way down, no lumps on the exterior like Bill Leeper described. Just hope the 'smith does not have any chambering problems like John Ricks did.

MtnHtr

My next barrel is gonna be one of their's.

'Course I don't spook easily. Some folks cain't like Remington,McMillan,Barnes,Toyota,Loomis,Huskies or any other number of my cravings.

Just leaves more for me and I'm good with that...................

...........I'm a Lamiglas/Penn/Toyota slut myself!

Don't forget Ingrams........ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Oh Loomis

I concur that Gene's wares are easy to crave and squarely in those ranks.....................

I have 3 Pac-nor Barrels. 2 are 17 Rem, and one is a 6x45. The second 17 Rem fouls alot faster than the first and is almost as accurite. I started using moly bullets with the second barrel today, and it seems to really like the moly, better groups and all. .5" groups are not too hard to get.

They are re-barreling a 6mm-250 at present on a Rem 700. I am satisfied with thier work so far.

DanS- Just out of curiosity, what kind of performance are you getting out of the 6X45? I think it'd be a cool little round, but there's very little info I've been able to track down.

There is an undate at AR on the German steel that Pacnor will not use anymore.

Mtn Hunter,
You really didn't think the barrel would make it through to the end did you? Not after all the fiasco's to date?

That rifle is going to have one heck of a story to go with it when it finally gets done!

I read that post over on AR, and I can't buy it at face value. Pac-Nor has had too good a reputation for too long. Besides that, John Noveske's point that a cracked barrel would never make it through the rifling process makes a heck of a lot of sense to me. Everyone makes a turd once in a while, and I have never heard anything but positive comments about PN's customer service.

As for foreign steel, if the domestic producers can't supply the raw material, they've got to go somewhere. I wouldn't dismiss foreign steel out of hand, because there are some pretty good German barrel makers using that same steel.

CAS,

Its been a wild ride, has it not? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I think this Pac-Nor barrel is okay but what do I know? I looked it over again last night under flourescent lighting and still can't find anything wrong with it using my naked eyes. My wife thinks I'm nuts but thats okay too! I'm shipping her off (the barrel that is <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) next week to the 'smiths, he'll give me a heads up if anything is amiss.



MtnHtr

I like and ride Huskies too, Great Motorcylcles. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Has anyone actually talked to Pac-Nor about this issue to hear it directly from them? Rumors are just that, rumors. I think many in the know would find it interesting that a LOT of "U.S. Steel" actually comes from over seas. U.S. steel workers have priced themselves out of the market with Union problems, high wages, inefficiencies and crappy products. The U.S. can mine iron ore, ship it over seas to Japan and have it milled and shipped back to the U.S. cheaper than we can make it here. Sure, the wages are lower, but they also don't have to pay for law suits, health insurance premiums and workmans comp. Of course they can make it cheaper....and a lot better most of the time, just like their electronics. Pac-Nor has found a nitch in the market, a great barrel installed for a great price. In order to provide that service and remain competative, they have had to look at going over seas, due to the high costs of U.S. steel. I can't blame them a bit. We Americans are pricing ourselves out of a lot of markets, due to insurance costs, workmans comp, law suits, etc. Anywho, call Pac-Nor and get it straight from them. Flinch

Flinch,

I emailed Pac-Nor to get their version. I have over a dozen of their barrels in personal use, but I also have scores of other barrels by Shilen, Hart, McGowen, etc.

Here is Pac-Nor's response.

"Art, the barrel in question was a c-m,which had not been blued or coated,we looked at it under a microscope and the "cracks" were rust pits.The chamber was rusted,as well as the bore.We are installing it on a action and overload it to proof it.We will again remove the barrel and reinspect,if we can't get the barrel to bulge or split,we will alter the neck and throat for a .30 cal. bullet and try again (we will try it in 8mm,338,35 and so on untill something gives)sooner or later shooting these oversized bullet down the 7mm bore,should desroy it.The steel in the barrel was is of a US maker.You should not worry about your barrels,they are safe,although not RUST PROOF! Good shooting,Chris"


Hammer

There you have it. Simply as that. Thanks for the post Hammer <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

Imagine that, another side to the story. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We,ve had a c-m barrel returned to us that was said to have cracks,under a microscope,they were found to be rust pits.The chamber and bore also showed the same.Today we installed the barrel on a VZ-24 Large ring Mauser,and kept increasing the loads in the test fire tube,until we lost primer pockets due to pressure.We then neck and throated the 280Ack Imp chamber with a .30cal, and shot a .30cal bullet down the 7mm bore,with no effect on barrel or action.We then altered the neck and throat to accept a .338 (225GR Hornady)and shot it down the 7mm barrel.(the barrel copper fouled)after removeing the copper,we guaged the barrel and its still to correct bore and groove diameters.We are now opening the neck and throat for a .35 cal and will send a .358 bullet down the .284 grv barrel.We are going to keep going up until we can bulge or split the barrel,or break the reciever,or run out of diameter,on the cartridge shoulder,for a larger bullet.The rust pitts on the outside of the barrel polished out easily,but we recut the entire chamber when we installed it on the Mauser,this of course removed all the pitts inside it.I'll keep you posted,as to how large of bullet we get down the barrel. Chris at PacNor

Chris,

Video that abuse and I'll happily buy a copy...............

Chris, you are DA MAN!!!!!!!! I knew you wouldn't let [bleep] get outta your shop. Thanks for the post and keep up the good work. And like Big Stick said, video that baby and let me buy a copy or two. Food for thought? Flinch

Nothing like hearing the real deal direct from the hoss's mouth eh ??

Think that they are putting just alittle over SAAMI pressures on that poor barrel ?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Nice to see a company that cares about it's customers.

Tony.

Anybody put Pac Nor's reply on AR and, now, Hunt America? I have not had the chance to check. If not, they probably should.



John

Thats pretty cool seeing PacNor s post . Thats about best post ive seen in along time.
I was kinda suspicious about the origanal complaint

Chris,

I want to personally thank you for taking time to set the record straight right here on our forum. Things get out of hand quickly once the rumor mill starts and the anonymous nature of the internet makes the situation worse. It's comforting to know the effort you will put into testing a barrel to alleviate your customer's concerns (even when unfounded).

I have one of your barrels on my deer/coyote rifle and am very happy with the results. #2 is leaning in the corner of my bedroom while I seek an appropriate action.

Now that you're registered, keep us abreast of new developments at the shop. It's always fun to hear about the latest toy you guys have played with.

HogWild

Chris
You have a lot of nerve! Wasting a perfectly good barrel on some obvious loser! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

On a different note, I have read that PO Ackley used to do that for fun to, and had no problems shooting 35 cal bullets through 25 cal tubes (I think) simply by rethroating them. What is the greatest spread you have played with in your barrels? Looking for shank diameter more than any other number actually...

Thanks for posting
art

It was my rifle that had the PacNor on it in question.
In regards to rust on the barrel I have never seen rust that was in a crack form that you could snag your fingernail in ? The pits that were on the barrel could possibility have been rust...I don't know.
What I do know is...
I had the action barreled about a year ago & stored it my gun safe that is equiped with a electric de-humidifier. For me to believe that the PacNor barrel was the only thing that rusted in my safe is rubbish.
I had no ax to grind with PacNor I wouldn't had my action barreled with one of their barrels if that was the case. I wouldn't had gone to the expense of having one of their barrels installed & then have it sent back & now find myself out the money I spent for the barrel & installation & having to buy another barrel.
I was told that Chris was given my name & contact info & I never heard one word from him to explain what their position was in regards to my situation.
In fact I posted on AR explaining what happened & I'm sure I could of been contacted through that forum if they really wanted to.
Instead, I see that he comes on this forum telling everyone the extensive & grueling testing that was done to my barrel & that it's perfectly safe (DAMAGE CONTROL). That the issues I found on the barrel were due to my neglect which is total BS!!
Before anyone responds that I should of contacted PacNor I was sent a e-mail by my gunsmith with a copy of his e-mail sent to Chris with my name & my e-mail address. I never heard a word !!
I'm sure they make some great barrels for some people, but after this experience it would take a hell of a lot for me to have a PacNor on another one of my rifles !!
It's not only the quality in question here, but the customer service given to the buyer by PacNor.
I'll let you be the judge if you think service was given
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Their barrel,will be my next.

Not much new there.................

Sounds like some shade tree testing to me. I'm not just surprised, I amazed, and suspicious of any barrel manufacturer that would stoop to this level of BS. Chambering a barrel for an over size bullet, which by the way only shows the strength of the action and not the barrel. Stick the barrel in the mud about 8" and then shoot it, now that's a barrel test. I'm shocked that Chris would post such an answer, if in fact he did.

Dan

Well before everyone gets too teary-eyed about Pac Nor's response, not to say that they haven't or have made quality barrels, but right now there's still only 3 guys, counting the smith, that know for sure what the real story is.
Playing the devil's advocate here, where there's smoke, there's fire sometimes.
I wouldn't be too quick to condemn the customer who had nothing to gain simply because a good response was given by the defendent. On the other hand, a bad judgement call could have been made by the customer that resulted in some miscommunications, as well as some hard feelings.

Were there any pictures taken of the barrel in question by either of the involved parties? This might help to clear some of this up as well.

Bottom line is this, when you sell a product to a consumer, they are placing their buying confidence in you to provide them with a quality product that matches the price they paid. When you fail to provide this product, you must assume that news of this will spread in an exponential rate of time, as opposed to good news of course. It is for this reason alone that we try really hard here to please our customers at any cost. You might save a buck or two to the guy that you sold the bad part to and didn't refund his money, but everyone he talks to about the experience will dodge you like the plague. The old saying, "customer is always right", has a lot of truth to it, no matter what the circumstances.
We've had parts that were returned to us via Brownells that someone had used on their rifle for god only knows how long. They were rusted, beat up, and complete junk that I couldn't even fix myself that we had to eat because of abuse. As much as I hated to give credit back on that part, I did anyway, and for one good reason. For every customer who does that to the guy trying to make a living by selling quality parts, there is thousands who truely appreciate what you do, and are willing to pay for it. Sometimes biting your tongue and eating some crow will save you a lot of money and heartache.

With all that said, I'm not picking sides one way or the other. I think there is probably more to this story than any of us are going to be privy to anyway. The consumer has been made aware, and the manufacturer has offered to test the barrel for safety. It's about all you hope for in this situation, which I hope gets resolved peacefuly between the interested parties. Nothing like this ever does the gun community any favors either way.

Hitem

It was quite OBVIOUS to me you didn't have a axe to grind here, you just posted what you experienced, I believe you. You must keep in mind this site is the official Pac-Nor fan club. I have a very limited experience with Pac Nor and it will get no broader.

I sent a Rem barreled action to be barreled and the first time I received it the trigger was missing. Anybody makes mistakes...so I call them and I'm told they have a drawer full of Rem triggers and to send it back. I stated I wanted my trigger as it was very good. To their credit they did return it with my trigger attached. When I received it the 2nd time the Gun Kote was wearing off. I sent the barreled action wrapped snuggly in a thick cloth and then in a padded hard case. The 2nd time they shipped it, it was placed unwrapped and loose in the hard case. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that this will result in the barreled action finding it's way to the edge of the case and rubbing on the hinges and thats what it did. Now thats just plain lack of attention to basic detail. This in combination with not installing the trigger left a very poor impression in my mind to their attention to detail, or lack of it. I sent it back again to have the barrel bead blasted and action blued. I also got the same crappy gun koted bottom metal back.I finally get it back and it flat won't shoot any of several loads tested better than a 1.5 inches and the barrel fouled like a mile of dirt road. And yes I did their suggested break-in and then some. I will say even though I was mad as hell, Penny was as good a customer service agent as could be found and should be paid far more than she probably is. They even gratised me a barrel which I had my local smith install and it shoots well. That was nice, but I would have much preferred the first barrel was right the first time. I finally said the hell with it and Pac Nor and sent it off to Krieger. Eleven long months later I finally have a rifle that shoots and also a rifle I've lost all interest in due to the hassles. Anybody can and will make the occasional mistake. That being said, when it happens several times with the same order, they lost me as a customer. There are far to many alternatives and the price difference is really very marginal among the top makers. If I want a economical barrel I'll get a douglass.

Very well put Matt!!!

Brno284

This will be my first custom rifle and Chris and I exchanged countless emails regarding the project. His helpfullness, knowledgability and eagerness to answer every one of my questions in a timely manner is one of the reasons I decided to give them my business.

Their receptionist is also very friendly and helpful.

The people at Pac-Nor gave me a great deal of confidence so far and if my gun comes out the way I expect it to, they will be building many more rifles for me in the future.

Has anyone in fact contacted Chris at Pac-nor to confirm that it was his post?

If it was his post KUDOS to Pac-nor for the response. Chris are you trying to develope the "all around" rifle? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> One size fits all/most.

Darkside

Hitem
I will say upfront I have some Pac-Nor barrels and will likely get more, though I do not feel I fall into the slut category. What I would like to know is a little more history on the use the rifle received and what led up to the problem. Certainly it did not come home to the safe and the next day you found rust?

A few direct questions from me though would be how you figure catching a fingernail determines a crack? I am not being a smartazz here, just a serious question. I know there is at least one non-destructive metals tester posting here and I hope he chimes in.

I had a fellow bring a rifle to me he swore did not get wet when he went on a Prince William Sound (AK) bear hunt. The SS rifle had rust spots all over it and salt crystals in all small corners. What options do I have in accepting his story?

Another question; are you sure Chris/Pac-Nor got the email? Lots of folks weed their emails out before opening if they are not properly identified in the title... I do it all the time without apology. It makes sense if you want to minimize computer problems.

It does seem there is a lack of communication between you and Pac-Nor that I would correct ASAP, were I in your shoes.

A lot of bad has come of this whole issue and I think it would be best if you told the whole story. I do not see anything wrong with Chris posting his side here where he knows he will get support... he has earned it here, for the most part.

Anyway, I for one would appreciate any insight you could give use about what the rifle got used for and where. Thanks again and no slight intended,
art

I would like to say up front that Matt's response was professional & is what every customer looks for when they have a problem be it real or imaginary. I will make it a point to look to deal with his company in the future.

In regards to the problems I experienced with the PacNor barrel as I mentioned before I had the barreled action sitting in my safe for about a year, before I got around to making a stock for it. I should note that I wipe all my firearms down with Rig when I put them away for storage.

It was while I was inletting the stock that my son was looking at the barrel & mentioned that he saw pin holes in the metal.
I wiped off the inletting black & sure enough there was a cluster of pin holes the cluster was aprox. 3/16" in diameter.
When I looked over the barrel I noticed a number of cracks about 1/16"-3/16' in length. There was some small scratches on the exterior of the barrel also. The cracks were irregular in shape almost looking like stress fractures you could definitely catch a fingernail in some of them.The scratches were lineral in apprearance & were very minor.

I've been involved in die making for over 25 years & I can assure you that these issues were not the result of rust. For metal to have pin holes & cracks as deep as I found on this barrel it would had to be sitting in the elements for the last 10 years. That statement from Chris is total garbage.

My mistake was not taking a picture of the barrel, I assumed that once PacNor saw the condition of this barrel that they would be concerned that it had gotten out of their plant & that they would be more then happy to make some kind of resitution to me....................I assumed wrong !!

I cannot be absolutely certain that Chris or anyone esle at PacNor received any e-mails which contained means to contact me.
That being the case let me put this out front to Chris or anyone else at PacNor who would care to contact me to resolve my issue with their product.

They can contact me at crcdiekote@earthlink.net

Let's see if the opinion people have on this forum for PacNor is truely justified. ??

Aa I said before I have no hidden agenda here outside of the fact that I feel I received a inferior product that I would like to have some form of restituation.

REPUTATION

The only true asset a business has is its reputation. Physical assets such as lathes and inventory are worthless. Cash in the bank can soon be depleted. Reputation is the only thing that sustains a business over time. And it matters not whether the business is big or small. All can be crushed and ruined in a short time.

Most businesses -- and all that survive for any length of time -- protect their reputation with extraordinary care. I know large companies that pay out millions each year on unjustified claims just to assure that even one truly qualified claim is not settled improperly. This isn't new. Sharp, honest businessmen and craftsmen have done this over the centuries to protect their reputation and their livelihood.

What does it take to ruin a man's reputation ?

How easy is it for one person with a microphone to ruin another man ?

How easy is it for a competitor to ruin another man's business ?

The internet is all anonymous. Could an unscrupulous person post damaging accusations for the purpose of destroying a competitor ? Could a person with a personal grudge attack another's business in order to settle a personal issue ?

How does one protect their reputation in the world of the internet ? There are so many forums that one could truly occupy all of one's time searching for accusations when they could be servicing real customers.

How does one protect their reputation on the internet ?

Thoughts anyone...

Hammer

I was wondering? Did you ever try a phone call and ask to speak to the owner specifically?
In a situation like you describe I wouldn't count on just emails and receptionists.
I have a Pacnor barrel and I'm neither thrilled or really let down by it either.
If I was going to go on an internet forum and blast a manufacturer though, I would at least have logged in with my real name. I see you have 2 posts.

There hasn't been much sympathy for this problem in any of the forums where it has been posted. From the perspective of Pac-Nor, they sold a barrel to a "gunsmith" who installed it and apparently delivered it after inspection, with no adverse comment on what he observed. The "client" receives an unblued barrel and action, likewise with the opportunity of inspecting it which he presumably did. Two inspections and no apparent complaint.

The customer stores it in some fashion for ONE YEAR!!! He, or his son, reinspects and perceives a problem.

Pac-Nor has no clue as to handling or storing of a piece of steel sold way back when. I don't blame them. Where was the "gunsmith" when he did the work and delivered what he now says was a defective barrel? Doesn't a customer and ultimate user inspect the work and the merchandise when delivered? Who would react any differently than Pac-Nor under these circumstances?

I have several Pac-Nor barrels and I'm installing another right now. If I had ANOTHER requirement after this one, it would STILL be a Pac-Nor!

I received a phone call from the owner and shop foreman yesterday about the barrel being mentioned. The test is true. That was Chris Dichter's post. Today they are turning the 280 into a 375 x 280 rem with a 284" groove and a .276" bore. By the way, the measurments have remained constant through the 35 cal testing. They are going to try a 250 then 300 gr lead core bullet in 375 cal, then try a 300 barnes x. My prediction is that the case will eventually fail releasing the chamber pressure out the back which will rob the bullet of its needed pressure to get out of the barrel. I guess the bullet will stick somewhere in the bore. What comes next will be the most interesting. I wonder if the case will just fail again, or if the barrel will finally blow.
In regards to Customer Service, PAC-NOR is top notch. From what little I know know about this barrel, PAC-NOR and the gunsmith where in communication.
PAC-NOR has an inspection room full of equipment. One thing is a very nice industrial microscope. The "cracks" and pits where looked at in depth by more than one person. I am no metalurgist, but I take their word for it. PAC-NOR has no reason to shaft anyone. Their reputation has been earned with hard work and excellent barrels. I use their barrels exclusively.

John Noveske Rifleworks

Hitem,

Coming onto a public forum like this without first directly contacting Pac-Nor personally is out of line in my book. Basically you have forced Pac-Nor into a corner, and left them few options other than coming public to defend themsleves.

Maybe I handle things differently than most, but I always try to settle my complaints with the source first and foremost. At least give Chris a call yourself and discuss the situation with him, man to man.

It wasn't Hitem that iniated all of this discussion. It was Jim Kobe.

Chuck

We,ve just finished testing a Speer .35 cal 250Gr. bullet down the 7mm bore.We were able to see the the projectile in flight for an instant,it was shrouded in a "white mist"( belived to be lead vaporizing)helically rotateing,and appeared to be traveling point on.We are not sure whether it was a fragment,or the entire projectile.Velocity was quite slow.We,re making a water tank, and are going to mount the action vertically,and try to catch the projectile.We then reneck and throat for .375 cal.We've got a digital camera a will attempt a 15 second video,and try and post it.Hope it comes out,all this stuff is new to me,and I depend on the some of my younger more computer savy, employees to get this right.I noticed another post,saying to plug the bore with mud and try it.I've done this in the past,but I hammered a 180gr. lead bullet into the barrel,and shot a 150gr. jacketed bullet into it, chambered in a 30/06,It left a bulge in the stainless barrel,and vaporized the lead bullet in a large cloud of white smoke.Once we are done with the 7mm swager project,we will rebarrel,and plug the bore,and see if we can get some video of the project.In all fairness, to the unhappy customer,we have taken what was a good barrel,that he paid good money for,and ruined it testing.If he will contact me either by e-mail or by phone,I will send him a refund check.No use of him having to pay for our fun. Chris at Pacnor

"That was Chris Dichter's post. Today they are turning the 280 into a 375 x 280 rem with a 284" groove and a .276" bore. By the way, the measurments have remained constant through the 35 cal testing. They are going to try a 250 then 300 gr lead core bullet in 375 cal, then try a 300 barnes x. My prediction is that the case will eventually fail releasing the chamber pressure out the back which will rob the bullet of its needed pressure to get out of the barrel."

That is the biggest crock of BS I've read yet!!

Dan

Regardless, he came public without talking to Pac-Nor first. Apparently my manner of handling things differs from others on this board.

Hitem,

Without comment regarding anything else here, why post your email and invite them to contact you?

Pick up the phone, man...it's long past time.

dave

DFC,

Hey danno, if this is so much BS, hows about calling Pacnor and calling them to the carpet on it ??

Then let us know what happened.

Tony.

Amen

I don't know if your barrels are any good or not but I'd probably trust the scores of guys around here that like them. Sure sounds like your having fun with that thing though. How about pulling a few more of the shelf and making a bunch of vids.....would be great for advertising.

Jeezus,whattya say to someone who don't retain the brainpower to cypher such an obvious conclusion themself and is unable to formulate a thought,like using the phone? I think that is powerful enough testimony,that his faculties are in serious enough question,as to whether or not he could even handle a rifle(safely).

Unphucking believable to me,that someone could ride the couch for better than a year,pull that yarn out of their ass and point a finger?

That is the most Mickey Mouse circle jerk clusterphuck,that I've had whistle past my ears,in quite a spell.

I don't savvy how this guy figured someone was gonna read his mind and devine that he had an issue with the rifle(if in fact there even was an issue)? I'm just floored as more light is shed,that someone that dense,figures they have a beef.

I'd tell hin to stick his barrel in his ass,but I'm funny that way. Kudos to Chris,for having a far better shield,to such idiocy.

I couldn't do it.....................

My name is Dan not Danno! Furthermore, I'm an adult and don't BS easily. I called Chris and he admitted he wrote that post. I'm not impressed nor are other knowledgeable riflesmiths! And I told him just that.

Dan

Dan, could you explain to me why you are not impressed? I know next to nothing about gunsmithing, so out of pure curiosity, what is wrong with what PacNor is doing there?
I assume they are doing it to see if there really were cracks in the barrel.

OK, "Dan", let's see here, we'll try alittle logic........

This thread started because of the rumors about problems with Pac-nor barrels right ? The problem in question is someone found what he thought were cracks on the barrel, I.e possibly compromising the structural integrity of the barrel. And questioned whether the barrel steel in question was made in the USA or not.

Well, the barrel maker said that was indeed USA made steel and decided to see how far they can go before breaking it. Granted, their methods are certainly not a controlled experiment, but they ARE trying to demonstrate whether the barrel is unsafe, which was the original conclusion implied.

(Now, if they REALLY wanted to have a controlled experiment, they could have attached a strain guage to the barrel and measured the amount of pressure that the barrel was withstanding, prior to it going to that great big hunting grounds. That might have answer many questions and impressed our bud "Dan")

But hey, at least they are trying SOMETHING.

I also doubt that when they considered doing this, they didn't consult you to see if you going to be impressed, eh ?

So I guess the conclusion that can be drawn is that, in fact, they are trying to demonstrate that the barrel isn't unsafe. Albeit not via a scientific method, but certainly they are subjecting it to pressures that any SANE person wouldn't dream of creating.

Plus, I think it is safe to assume that they are not trying to impress you either, right "Dan" ?

Tony.

PS : For the record, I have not ever, nor am I planning on using a Pacnor barrel at this point in time.

I'd like to thank our buddy "Dan" for taking the bait and proving yet again how much of a true dip schit he is !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Shouldn't he be off counting his money or something like that ??

Case closed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Don't bother Mathias, Dannyboy specializes in producing smoke, not heat. While the use of oversized bullets as a means to stress the barrel to the point of failure is not optimum, it should serve to prove that the barrel material itself was up to the rigors of everyday use.

Regards,
Scott

Dan,
I have a few honest questions. Would a perfectly sound barrel make it through the "stick it in the mud" test every time? If not, would the swagging test be a way of easing into the testing by gradually increasing the pressure? I certainly wouldn't want to do the hardest test first. That wouldn't give a good measure of at what point the barrel would fail. If all barrels fail with the "SIITM" test, how would it prove this one was inferior?
I'm not flaming anyone, just trying to learn. My one and only "custom" barrel is a Pac-Nor, and I'm very pleased with it. I want to build another rifle and want to use Pac-Nor. If there is BS in what you are gathering from them, I'd like to know what it is and why, before I shell out my hard earned bucks.

Thanks

We've captured an extruded 7/35 bullet,the Speer measured 1.220 in length before,and exited fully intact, at a length of 1.730 and measures .284 in diameter.It penetrated a full quarter drum of water,and the nose pierced a hole in the bottom.We suffered a full case head separation,and the boltface lost a small chunk,in the case extractor groove.We are now remachineing for the .375 test.We got a digital video,along with pictures of the case and bullets.We are trying to install them on our website Chris @ Pacnor

"I noticed another post,saying to plug the bore with mud and try it.I've done this in the past,but I hammered a 180gr. lead bullet into the barrel,and shot a 150gr. jacketed bullet into it, chambered in a 30/06,It left a bulge in the stainless barrel,and vaporized the lead bullet in a large cloud of white smoke."

The above was pinned by Chris at Pac Nor. It is nothing less than a blatant insult to any half-wit shooter intelligence. If anyone on this board thinks I'm full of sh:t, feel free to drive a 180 grain bullet down the barrel and then shoot a 150 into it. That's all I have to say about that BS. I'm less than satisfied with Chris explanation of the subject barrel, out sourcing of the testing was in order here, if in fact any testing was called for. Give the man back his money. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dan

I don't think you answered my question.
To add another question to my list: Are you advocating that this said fella Chris is lying through his teeth?
By the way, I don't know the guy, and never have owned a barrel from these folks, so I got no stake in this.
I am just trying to tickle some validity out of your statements.
So far I see anger and smoke. Where's the facts?

The fact's come from YOU driving a bullet down the barrel of your favorite deer rifle and then shooting one thru it.

Dan

It is nothing less than a blatant insult to any half-wit shooter intelligence.
Dan [/quote]

It's always nice to hear from the half-wits..

Here's a just as good of a story. I take my Chevy pickup to the dealer and tell them it don't seem to have the power, I think it should have. They take it to the drag strip and run the sh:t out of it to prove to me it has all the power any pickup needs. Childish to say the least. Just like this thread. Anyone blown up their barrel yet?

Dan

How is that much different from shooting oversized bullets through it? (I do realize that there is a sudden impact involved there)

I would think that the barrel maker is concerned about the following:
1.) Safety - Cracks in the barrel are an obvious concern. Maybe the testing they are doing is meant to prove/disprove something in the safety department

2.) Customer Satisfaction

3.) Reputation

In your estimation,the "suspect" metallurgy hasn't aptly displayed it's mettle?

The pun were there,for a reason................

Would add a smidge more.

When someone hasn't the vision to dial the phone and communicate discrepency,you gotta paint a vivid picture and use a large brush.

That is being done(in spades).................

Dan,

Why don't you explain WHY you feel this is such BS? It might help us neanderthals understand your position a bit better.



BTW, Chris also offered to return his money. Go back and read the post.



Cripes, you can be an abrasive individual....

"I hate to imagine what could of happened when I had taken it to the range to test fire it. It just boggles my mind that a barrel manufacturer could let something as unsafe as this to get through their system & then not even care that it did !!

If I had taken it to the range & had a accident PacNor barrels would have a lawsuit that I would hope put them out of business !! I'm not that forgiving."

Dan,
That quote is from hit-em on the AR site, and most intelligent people can see that it is the very concern that Chris was responding to, and he proved the concern was unwarranted.

Clearly you are not intelligent enough to make the connection. No thanks is necessary for clearing that up for you.

By the way Dan, have you jammed a bullet into a bore then fired another one behind it. If not then STFU because YOU don't know for certain what will happen.

This whole thing has gotten out of hand, so to speak. The smith should have known better, the owner may have acted to quickly, in judging what the problem was. Pac Nor, sure as hell used less than good judgment. And the ankle bitter will surely come out from under their rocks shortly. Speaking of them, where is that old fart from FL, hell I forgot his name. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Dan

Am I gonna get an answer or what?
Gee, I didn't mean to draw such a crowd of "ankle biters", as I heard somebody express it before.









<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You are a newbee, "By the way Dan, have you jammed a bullet into a bore then fired another one behind it. If not then STFU because YOU don't know for certain what will happen."

So, I think you should try it for yourself!! Let us know the outcome, if you can.

Dan

Are you withdrawing? I am still waiting on some expert gunsmithing knowledge, if it can be lowered to my level, that is.

How is he a newbee???
New at smelling your scent and picking up on it, perhaps?

Do you think Chris is lying through his teeth?
If he is, shame on him.
If he ain't, somebody else is....

Matt are you trying to see if I can hit post number 1000? Sorry, I'm not that interested, at least, not right now.

Dan

Dave
"It's always nice to hear from the half-wits.. "

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Touch'e!!!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
art LOL

Let me know when you get an answer to the two or three legitimate questions I asked you.

The "proof" is in the driving of the bullet, grasshopper.

Dan

Grasshoper, I like that! (Seriously!)

So why not come out and say that, in your NSH Opinion, Chris at PacNor is lying? Or am I putting words in your mouth here?

"I would think that the barrel maker is concerned about the following:
1.) Safety - Cracks in the barrel are an obvious concern. Maybe the testing they are doing is meant to prove/disprove something in the safety department

2.) Customer Satisfaction

3.) Reputation "

1) there are no cracks in the barrel DUH
2) Customer satisfaction is not accomplished by a pis'n match on the web!!
3) They are getting one NOW, To save what's left of it, they could withdraw from this childish and dangerous method of testing, before some moron tries to duplicate it.

Dan

Since Chris from PacNor posts here too....I am almost tempted to ask him if Dan really called.

The man that can't cypher that,had best be wearing a helmet,so as to preclude his licking light sockets.

Some things don't need sayin.........................

You should know better than that.

This whole post started because somebody thought he had cracks in the barrel. Remember???


Who started the pisnmatch??? I believe you were the first one to call bullshit on PacNor and get out of hand.

As far as some moron trying to duplicate it...should I even comment on this? You know, there are plenty of test labs out there that do this a lot. I guess they better stop before some moron tries to duplicate it.
I would think that PacNor, as a barrel maker, has the appropriate facilities, and knowledge to perform this type of testing.

LMAO, MM

I think this pis'n match was in progress detween the manufacturer and the customer when I added what I thought was my slant on things.

Dan

I don't have a dog in this fight, but have been following along.

I wouldn't hesitate to use Pac-Nor products/services.

MM

Same here....

Your slant on things has been nothing but smoke, trying to fuel a non-existant fire.

After all, it is the house brand. We should all use them, as we post here.

Dan

Dan,


Sorry to rip that from you JJ, but it seemed appropriate at this juncture.

Danno
I know I am breaking my vows to post to neither idiots nor yourself here, nor both as the shoe fits, but this is a worthy point;

"After all, it is the house brand. We should all use them, as we post here."

Darn straight, they help keep the lights on here. That is why they post here and one of many reasons folks like them.
art

I just found it necessary to wipe a mouthful of misted Copenhagen off my monitor <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

We,ve got the pictures on our website,of the 7mm/35 extruder.The link is www.pac-nor.com/extruder/ we,ve just fireformed the 375/280Ack Imp brass,and will try a 300gr. Sierra,followed by a 300 Barnes X Chris @ Pacnor

Man, I must be a quarter wit, cuz I ain't gettin' it!

Dan,
Is your "concern" over the fact that it doesn't seem very safe to pound the bullet in the muzzle and shoot another one into it? Maybe he should have had a disclaimer like "Tests performed by trained professionals. Do not try this at home".

Who said anything about him grabbing his favorite hunting rifle and trying it?

Not only is Danno accomplished in smithing, he is also a holder of world records in target shooting.
Tell em Danno, tell em how good you are! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Chris, you are still DA MAN! Something DFC will never amount to. He is still mad about all the smoke trickling out of his ass and getting his reputation tarnished as a betting man. He can't help the fact that his daddy beat him like an ugly red headed step child. It wasn't his fault he kept licking the light sockets and playing in the streets. He is a first rate gun smith and knows everything their is to know, after all, he wants a custom Savage. He blows so much smoke outta his asss you gotta carry a fan around just to see where you are going. Never seen anyone so abrasive in my life. He will go away like a bad case of gas in a while <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Ankle biter 2...I'm out. Flinch

I find it to be frustratingly difficult to get a couple simple questions answered by the Grand Master Gunsmith.

Somebody on AR has a sig line that reads something like this (may not be 100% right): The cockroaches of deceit will always run for cover when hit with the beacon of truth.

Dan? Little too bright out here?

Chis@PacNor,

You may want to post a reply on Jim Kobe's thread at AR. PacNor thread

George

I'd like to breifly quote page 66 and 67 of BOLT ACTION RIFLES, 3rd edition, by Frank De Hass.

"Of all the material I've read about the trength of Arisaka actions, the most astonishing report of the toughness of a Type 38 Japenesse action and rifle appeared on page 52 in the May, 1959 issue of The American Rifleman, This describes a Type 38 6.5mm Arisaka which was rechambered to accept a 30-06 cartridge. The 6.5mm barrel was not re-bored, only the chamber was enlarged. The fellow who did this accomplished it by grinding down the pilot on a 30-06 reamer so it would enter the bore. After rechambering it, he testfired it. nothing much happened, so he used the rifle on a hunting trip and killed a deer with it. Because the rifle kicked so hard, he took it to a reputable gunsmith who discovered what the owner had done with it and what he was shooting in it. Beacuse the rifle was still intact after firing a number of 30-06 cartridges, the gunsmith sent the rifle to the NRA. The NRA staff then fired some 30-06 rounds through it, and it seems incredible that neither the BARREL, nor the action burst. for just imagine firing .308" bullets through a .264" groove diameter barrel! If one where to deliberatley plan a torture test or blow-up test on the 6.5mm Japenese rifle, one could hardly think of a better scheme, even though it is a little crazy. That this particular rifle did not burst, or even appear to be strained by this abuse, certainly proves that the bolt, receiver and BARREL were made of the best heat treated steels."

I'm was planning to send my Rem 700 to PacNor for a new barrel and after reading all this I'm still sending my action to them. It seems to me if the customer should have contacted PacNor to start with instead of complaining on an internet forum. As far as customer service he's been offered a full refund which seems more than fair to me since it's been more than a year since he bought the barrel. I'm wondering if he has contacted them about the refund yet?

I don't know Mr. Kobe from a bucket of warm spit, but I do find it somewhat odd that he has posted this story on at least 3 different boards. The version on HA is even more vague.



I also find it odd that this wasn't hashed out in a phone call to

Chris at PacNor. I have found him very easy to have conversation with as well as very helpful.



I have 3 more rifles I intend to have re-barreled. Pac Nor will do them. They did a great job on the one that they have done for me and I'll bet if I had an issue, Chris would answer the phone.



DFC, You are still a prick.

Let's have a better understanding as to what transpired, before we start calling names & making insulting remarks.

To put it into a condensed version so you can better understand it & I'll try to keep it simple for your benefit.

1.Gunsmith rebarreled a Peruvian Mauser with a PacNor barrel.
2.The barreled action was wiped down with Rig & put into safe with a dehumidifier until I got around to making a stock for it. No I did not put lay out blue on the barrel after I got it back to inspect it for damage. Never have & I'm sure 99.99% of most people wouldn't.
3.Was inletting the stock when cracks were noticed.
4. Sent barreled action back to gunsmith & he agreed that there were cracks.
5. I figured this matter would be resolve between the gunsmith & PacNor since *I did not buy the barrel directly from PacNor*. It was not.
6.Was told by the gunsmith that he had given PacNor means to contact me since I was not happy with the response my gunsmith was given.Which according to my gunsmith was that these cracks & pits were caused by rust or were self inflicted.
With nothing to back it up, except being told that.
7. I did not start any post's flaming PacNor. I responded to a post that had already been in progress. Trying to explain what happen from my end.

End of story.

UPDATE.. I did decide to contact Chris after his one post about refunding my money , I'm glad to say that we resolved this issue. That's all I wanted in the first place was to get to some kind resolution.

I feel I was caught in the middle between the gunsmith & PacNor. Both telling a different story & all I know is that I'm out of the money for installing the barrel & the cost of the barrel.

To his credit Chris has stepped up to the plate & did what he could. Perhaps if there was better communication this could have been resolved sooner without this thread turning into a barnyard full of old hens pecking at each other.

Like a butch of dam old women !!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Aahhh.....I could have sworn you were bad mouthin PacNor and not your gun smith. My bad.....

Jeezus,you think a phone call mighta made a difference?

Put the helmet on and tread lightly..................

Stick, to me it sounds like somebody is back paddlin' by now accusing the 'smith.

Well,the Extruder experiment is at an end.When we fired a 300gr.Sierra .375 down the 7mm it made it 2 1/2 forward of the throat,and stopped.The back of the case ruptured,and the VZ 24 Mauser has been seriously wounded.We've measured the diameter of the barrel over the bullet and there is no gain dia.We are milling the barrel open,and will post pictures on the extruder link.In each case on this test,the primer pocket failed,and gas was lost,thru the action.We will keep you posted when we start the "pluged bore"project. Chris @ Pacnor

I'm flabbergasted that someone would blatantly proclaim so much stupidity,as a badge of honor.

He knew the who/what/where's many moons ago. CERTAINLY he hadda know someone that coulda dialed the phone,if the numbers were too small?

He was in over his head from day one and remains mired in the same conclusion more than a year later. Ain't nobody can fix that,as there are multiple wires loose betwixt the blinkers.

Some people shouldn't oughtta have sharp instruments,drive cars or own firearms. This would be powerful testimony to that.

I am now thinking a BIG helmet is in order. I mean BIG..................

Seen Bubbleboy?

Chris,
That is cool, thanks for posting those.

I'd really like to see a picture of the wounded action as well.

You guys will definitely get more of my business, even if you are using that kind of crappy steel that you can't shoot a 375 bullet out of a 7mm hole.

On another note, your experiment makes me wonder how bad someone has got to F up their handloads to blow up thier rifle. A case full of Bullseye maybe?

""That was Chris Dichter's post. Today they are turning the 280 into a 375 x 280 rem with a 284" groove and a .276" bore. By the way, the measurments have remained constant through the 35 cal testing. They are going to try a 250 then 300 gr lead core bullet in 375 cal, then try a 300 barnes x. My prediction is that the case will eventually fail releasing the chamber pressure out the back which will rob the bullet of its needed pressure to get out of the barrel."



That is the biggest crock of BS I've read yet!!



Dan"





I want to know what makes the prediction I made a crock of BS. Especially since I was right. Maybe I do not understand what BS is short for.

Where exactly do you see Back Pedalling ??
I never accused my gunsmith of anything, just stated what transpired.
It's amazing what you guys can read into.
Looking at the number of post you guys have responded to you must sit on your ass all day & talk about hunting & shooting.

I've seen your type before The Great Wanabe's.

You get on the computer & spend your day telling everyone who's willing to listen your opinions .
Remember "Opinions are like A$$ Holes everyone has one"


Figure this should get your cackles up !!!

Start peckings Ladies !!!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Some "gunsmith" this guy had!!!

Wannabe(t) I can dial the phone.
Wannabe(t) I can formulate a decision.
Wannabe(t) I can discern rust from pot metal inclusions.
Wannabe(t) You could never be taken seriously.

Yeah...I Wannabe(t) lotsa things....................

Well, Sh:tka thats why I posted it, I guess.

Dan

Lets read into what you posted on the AR site.

"In regards to the Peruvian Mauser that Jim re-barreled for me with the PacNor 280 barrel. The barrreled action sat in my safe for the past year until I got around to building a stock for it.

When I started to inlet the stock my son looked at it & said he saw cracks & porosity on the exterior of the barrel.
When I wiped off the inletting black, sure enough there were cracks that you could catch your fingernail in & small pin holes that were in a area of about a 1/8" cluster.

I hate to imagine what could of happened when I had taken it to the range to test fire it. It just boggles my mind that a barrel manufacturer could let something as unsafe as this to get through their system & then not even care that it did !!

If I had taken it to the range & had a accident PacNor barrels would have a lawsuit that I would hope put them out of business !! I'm not that forgiving.

For PacNor to take a stance that a customer put these in there & take a attitude that we can basically go to hell if we didn't like it....... says all I need to know !!!

The one thing I will do..... is convince everyone I know to NEVER think to buy a PacNor barrel. There's just to many other barrel manufacturer's who do care about turning out a quality product & holding on to customers.

Like they say it's hard to get customers, but so easy to lose them. Once you lose them they NEVER come back !!! "

Ooooooohhhhhhh, too cool, mechanical carnage !!!!!

Reminds me of the time I worked in our Navy Systems Division and we had to subject a cabinet (I'd like to say what it was but......) to a simulated depth charge hit, via our "large hammer" table.

Schit flying everywhere, it was cool as hell !!! Times like that made me glad I was an EE and not one of our Mechanical Engineers who was responsible for the packaging of the cabinet !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Nice job Pacnor.

Tony.

Dan, hey, Dan, hey, hey Dan, Dan, Dan, HEY HEY DAN!!!

You still haven't answered my questions.

Sounded to me like you started off badmouthing PacNor. And your "attempts to contact" PacNor were second hand, no personal attempt on your part. That is borderline stupid.



Here you reveal for the first time that it was really the smith's fault.

Does that answer your question?

Try this on, you are a punk with an overly large mouth. All this chambering proves there are some small minds at work. The real deal is. pacnor didn't make the steel, they did however drill a hole in it, then proceeded to do a 70 year old experiment that proved they have more time on their hands than work to do. I don't care at this point who does what. I have lost most of the respect for pacnor. You need to grow up.



I wanna see the bullet in the barrel trick. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Dan

Cas,when we shot the lead bullet,that was pounded down the bore,we use a full 30/06 case of Unique.That much pistol powder welds the case to the chamber walls,and it takes alot of machineing to get ready for the next shot.We are going to use a rifle powder this time.I don't think the VZ-24 Mauser will be in on this test,we've got it on life support now,and I think were going to pull the plug! Chris @ Pacnor

Look Dan....you were loudly proclaiming what a crock of BS PacNor was performing on that barrel, and you couldn't answer why.
The only reasons you've given me so far are:

1.) It's BS and everybody knows that
2.) A truly skilled gunsmith would stick the barrel in mud and fire it.
3.) It's 70 years old technique.

None of those are really convincing.

What would you have done to the barrel, if anything? Maybe only giving the customer the money back without any testing would be cool. What would you do?

Dan:



You haven't answered my inquiry as to whether you surmised Chris is lying.

I would have settled this little problem to suit the customer! Is that so hard for you to understand? This thread has shown me, I don't need their products or services. Just so you know I had one of their rebarreling jobs in my hot little hands and took a close look at what they call "action truing". Do you know anything about firearms? Seems you don't by the posts. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dan

Why can't you answer my questions? Seems you know a lot about firearms, by your posts. Or is it too hard to relay your knowledge to others?

Why are you trying to shift gears by asking me if I don't understand the customer side? That's not what this is about.

I asked you questions that should be simple to answer for a guy of your acclaimed capacity.



You see, Dannyboy, there is the problem a lot of folks, me included, might have with you: You make some claim, and when somebody calls you on it, you get even louder. Yet you never answer the simple question that is asked of you.

Evasion tactics is what you're all about. You did the very same thing the entire length of that stupid 30-06 thread.



Fact is you can't or won't answer my simple questions. Instead, you ignore them and try to sidestep the issue by trying to answer/evade questions that were never asked.



What a pitiful existence.



Go shoot some more world records/build some top notch rifles/brag about your multi-million dollar gun collection.

You could, if you're so inclined, kiss my ass. Although on second thought, it's not a good idea to get that close to a yapping dog. Good evening. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dan

Matthias
I am sure you are sharp enough to realize you will not get an answer... Remember the brown bear photo? Not only was it "not a big one" but it was also a 10' bear? That was a very basic question about a claim that was never answered...
art

Like I said, you can't answer questions.

I surmise one of the following:

1.) You really are of superior intellect and skills, but have trouble communicating with others.

2.) You are a poser and have trouble communicating with others.

I rest my case, Dannyboy.

Sitka Deer....I know it. That bear sure was purdy funny.
I know I won't get an answer. But it's fun trying to tickle it out of him. Kinda like teasing a tied up dog, ya know?

All bark and slobber.

Chris at PacNor, if you should happen to read this, and if you care to share, did this Dannyboy fella call you up today and did he tell you just what he thought of your methods? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Decpeption is all he knows.

Now in order to be deceived,you must first believe. When you know outta the gate it is all a ruse,the deception isn't present and the path is crystal clear.

Not much to it..................

I started suspecting as much a couple of replies into the 30-06 thread. Boy, that was some fun reading.
That's what really made me like the Campfire, and I joined up soon after. I guess I should thank DannyBoy?

Mr.Rick oughtta thank him,for all the business he's drummed up..................(grin)

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

All I can say is I am sitting here with a big smile on my face, after reading this. Of course, my dad would have whupped (Southern term) my butt for picking on someone that is obviously retarded. (grin) TM

PS. Only hae one Pac Nor barrel so not exactly a slut but after this little taste, want to try another one. (bigger grin)

When I finally do gather the funds to do a custom project, PacNor will be at the top of a short list. If anything, this thread just re-inforced that.

I love it !!

We got a janitor & a unemployed so called woodsman calling people stupid!!
I love it... that you guys actually think of yourselfs as the moral code here. Amazing!!
You guys have to be thankful you have a computer screen to hide behind & spew out your moral judgements.


One can't seem to get it through his head that the barrel wasn't picked up again until I decided to inlet it & that I don't inspect barrels. For whatever reasons I have no claim because it sat in my safe for a year before I looked at it again.

Both of you keep insisting that I should of called PacNor before I sent it back to my smith. Why ???
It was my smith who bought it & installed it .
If someone painted your house or in your case your Trailer & the paint started to peel off.
Who would you call the paint manufacturer ??

With your combined intellect I'm sure you're come back with something witty?/

Let the pecking begin !!

I don't reckon I could type anything slow or big enough,for you to understand.

When the phone baffles you,I'm at a loss to convey the obvious. Just make certain the chinstrap is tight.

Wouldn't want you to sue the helmet manufacturer,if'n it came off enroute to the lightsocket................

Matthias

I think you're suffering from a lack of oxygen, probably caused by having your head so far up Big Sticks ass. I think the customer here has gone out of his way not to make this a giant flame fest directed towards Pac Nor. He simply stated it as he saw it. The fact it pisses off the Pac Nor fan club is just added entertainment value. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have never seen more shoddy workmanship on a rifle by a so called professional than what I received from Pac Nor, not once but three times on the same rifle. Dan's comments on their "trueing" is almost a direct quote from another person that corrected my problem Pac Nor barreled rifle. I'm quite sure all the positive reports from the folks here are accurate, at the same time whenever someone offers a a less inspiring account of their experience, the pack mentality goes into overdrive and the skirt riders make a full assualt if led by one of their online hero's. As far as the Smith in question here, I can see no motive for him to lie. He may not be the most subtle or personable person in the world but he has a very solid reputation. You lady's go pack to your chores and maybe bake a few chocalate cakes for Stick as he seems in need of a few. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

For some reason, this reminds me of a girl I had to fire once, because she could not get along with anyone. When I gave her half a dozen examples, she had a "reason" for eveyone of them. At that point I stated that when one or two people had a problem with another person, that could be anybody's fault. When the group enmasse had a problem with one person, it was that persons fault and they needed to either change or go somewhere else. Simple group dynamics. Doesn't mean that person is wrong, simply that they do not fit into the group. Of course some people, rightly or wrongly, believe that their viewpoint is the only correct one and insist on repeatedly pointing that out to people with other opinions. Whether they are right or wrong, I have never seen a case where they changed anyones minds. Of course that is just MY opinion and I could be wrong. TM

demps,

At least you got grit and can formulate a thought process,even though we ain't gonna see eye to eye on everything.

I'm troubled by the chickenshitt low life bastards,who's first reaction to any discrepency is to point fingers faster than Thell Reed and who's lightnin' quick first words is "I'm gonna sue".

That you side with a dimwit,is business all your's.

Other than that,you made me blush and I'm all flattered...............ha haa haa

In case them words was too itty-bitty,or the text too speedy.

That were dripping sarcasm on the flattery,but I'd not deny demps his grit...................

It's obvious that there was something wrong with the barrel after one year. Apperently Hitem's corrosion preventative techniques failed on that one rifle in his safe.

I don't think they were cracks, as the barrel lasted a long time under extreme pressure.

BUT! I also would have expected the gunsmith to deal with the barrel producer first. I wouldn't call Pac-Nor until I felt the gunsmith had failed in that department, or perhaps in order to give firsthand knowledge to Chris.

I've got a Douglas barrel on my one and only custom rifle. and I've never talked to the folks at Douglas.

I think Pac-Nor is pulling a bit of a stunt with this pressure testing deal. It's long been known that oversize bullets will squeeze down a remarkably small bore. No real surprise with the results so far.

I think a more business like response would have been an offer to replace the barrel free of charge. It's been said before, it's not always enough to be right, sometimes ya just got to suck it up and take a very small hit.

Reading the two threads (I don't read HA) I've come across individuals and gunsmith who openly admitted they no longer use Pac-Nor barrels due to quality control issues, BEFORE this was brought up. These people had not said that on-line before and were not looking to promote there own problems. So now a company which just last week had a great reputation has been exposed for quality control issues by MORE than one person. Both John Ricks and Spike mentioned these things, not some no-name newbie to the board.

So who really loses here? Hitem is getting his refund, we get to watch a really cool experment, Lothar Walther barrels got a really big plug during this, and so did a few other barrel companys. The way I see it, Pac-Nor lost.

Where the heck did I put that nomex??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

bw,

My curiosity, was raised a bit on the big bullet experiment. As I stated, I would have liked to have seen a strain gauge on the barrel to indicated what the pressure climbed to. That simple addition would have produced data that would have been a marketing gem for Pacnor.

But, non the less, it does appear that Pacnor subjected the barrel to pressure levels that would/should never be reached using ordinary loading techiques.

I agree that the gunsmith handled things pretty bad. I have a Model 88 that I had re-barreled and I never had to contact the barrel mfg. The 'smith did all of the legwork. All I did was cut him a check when the work was done. The 'smith I used has a stellar rep. of first class quality. He earned that rep. by delivering a quality product. I am sure that he had bad components from suppliers once in a while, but if you isolate the customer from the gory details, it shouldn't matter.

My take on this mess is that the 'smith should have handled what ever problems that HIS customer had and not depend on a supplier to do his job for him.

Tony

BW,

I'll respectfully disagree,but would concur that Spike don't know his ass from a hole in the ground.(grin)

Actually,it's gonna take more than an idiot with a rusty barrel,to sway my findings. I'd not dismiss extreme pressure testing as a "stunt",though I'd call it convincing in determining metallurgical integrity(understatement).

Couldn't/wouldn't comment on the 'Smith in question,but do know I like to do all business via the horse's mouth. If he couldn't answer something,I'd shove him aside and move up the ladder ASAP.

A year after the fact and a line of copious bullshitt later,I'd of told him to stick it up his ass(were I the Manufacturer),for them very reasons.

LW took a hit on AR and I'd say that jives nicely with two things. [bleep] happens and you cain't make everyone happy. Though often much of both,is miscommunication,'cause some can't dial the damned phone.

As the consumer in this instance,I'd not expect anything outta this debacle,other than a new 'Smith and a phone with larger buttons. To get tossed a cookie with the refund,goes wayyyyyyy above and beyond IMHO.

Standing with your mouth wide open catching flies,is a remedy to no situation,excepting perhaps the bug population. This guy musta caught a bushel of them,as he sure as hell did linger,way after dropping the ball.

My phone has rang off the hook with pards howling with laughter and squarely siding with the Manufacturer. Gotta 'fess to being in those ranks and we will all keep using their tubes/services.

I think calling bullshitt and having the ability to squarely back that claim in convincing fashion,do not constitute losing faith,integrity or future customers.

Some is gonna bitch no matter what and that's how that ball bounces............

Where do you get the Janitor idea?

BW, You are, at the very least an eloquent speaker. I on the other hand have no tolerance for ignorance and let it get me upset. When that happens, I just tell it like it is and damn the torpedoes. So, in a rational way, I'll say this. I have always felt I deserved the best, so I buy Hart, Shilen and Krieger barrels and have never to date had the first problem, although to be honest, I'm not a problem prone kind of a guy. There are several barrel makers that I wouldn't bother cutting a thread on one of their barrels. I don't hang around shooting ranges listening to the self proclaimed experts, telling to locals, how great his neighbor brand X barrels are shooting and they should buy one. I do however, shoot competitively and to date I have never seen a P-N barrel on a match rifle of any kind. Their barrels may be good enough for the guys here. But, if you want to be a member of the thousand yard PD club there is a better way. There is a lot of the wolf pack pecking order mentality on this site, of which I don't subscribe. Because a guy owns a half dozen or so McMillan stocked, P-N barreled rifles that someone other than himself built, does not make a hero in my eyes. Build your own firearms and win something then you are closer to being an expert, and your opinion might count for something. I haven't seen a post on this thread written by a known quality shooter or rifle smith for that matter. Triggerguard would be the closest thing to someone that knows what the hell he's talking about. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dan

I think some are overlooking the evolution of this event. A customer takes his action to a qualified and very competent smith to be barreled. The customer notices what he feels to be a defect in the steel. He contacts the smith and the smiths agrees. So far so good right, most would do the same? The maker tells the smith there is no defect. The Smith is pissed about this and appearently other barrels of the same make and posts his thoughts on another board. A member of this board sees this and starts this thread. The customer states his case in what I perceive to be a even tempered and factual manner, presumably in response to the posts here that would refer to him as a dim wit. The customer seems to maintain his cool and has a sense of humor thru it all. I don't see how it can be perceived he went on a witch hunt. I also don't fret much about Pac Nors reputation and lost business. The fact of the matter is we live in internet world now and all should understand the good and bad that can come with it and most reasonable people can sift thru the BS anyway. I'm quite sure Pac Nor has benefitted a lot more from the vast word of mouth and free advertising they get here and other places than they have or will be damaged by this or other threads. Of course that really all depends on the their product and their service. I have never seen a thread such as this in regards to Krieger. I have seen one disturbing report of a problem with Hart, a few negatives on Shilen and a volume of bad press for Shaw etc etc. This is just a simple colection of input to me on various barrel makers and is no different other than scale of what I would gather in talking to shooters at the range of a meet.

Why is there not such a outrage when a Remington 710 is trashed about. Stick what do you think of the Saco TRG? Aren't you worried about smearing their reputation? What about Montana Rifleman barrels? I *think* my memory of your opinions of these are correct. I purchased my Pac Nor based mainly on the people here. Anyone can make mistakes, they made several, I'm a picky bastard and expect more attention to detail and voice my opinion on rare occasion concerning this topic. We all have opinions based on our experiences, correction some have opinions based on what the "crowd" dictates, and we express them and argue. So what. Ain't nobody changing the others mind here and I should have avoided this all together based on that alone. How you all arrive at this person being a dimwit is beyond me, at least he speaks plain english. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

travelingman1

Yes that is correct. And perhaps that same girl you fired found employment where the group dynamics are more suited to her personality or maybe shes just a pain in the ass destined for a life of firings. Either way it doesn't change my opinion of people who lack the ability to form their own opinions. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Dempsey, It would be a dull world if people did not have different opinions occasionaly. The real trick is to learn to express your opinion, without pissing off other folks. That is when people will listen to what you have to say, whether they agree or not. Unfortunately, that young lady, like some others, never learned the art. That means that her considerable intelligence, never was appreciated by others, who never listened to what she had to say. TM

Dan,

That would make you a dog dick,for not crafting your own tubes.

I concur with that reasoning of your's..............

Ray,
I love how you cut through the bullshitt and get straight to the point. On the other hand, if everybody was as sensible as you this would be a very dull board indeed! (grinning here) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />- Sheister

Look, here's what bothers me: On the first page in this thread you say all kinds of things about PacNor, how they never got back to you, etc. I don't really want to quote all of it again. Then, just on page 3 of this thread you say that you are really stuck between smith and maker. Turns out your smith told you he contacted them. Gave you a number. Etc.

And so it turns out that you never actually dealt with PacNor themselves.



Now, I will admit that you shouldn't have to. Your smith should be taking care of it. And if for any reason he cannot get the vendor of his materials to comply with his requests - which I find dubious and strange, but it's not about that - then the smith should reimburse you. You did pay him for the complete project, did you not?

So, I don't think your smith deserves as much trust as he's getting. And with that in mind, yes, you should have called PacNor.

And by the way, my main beef throughout this thread has been with Dan. Had nothing to do with you.

I do wish you luck on finishing this project someday.

What barrel maker do you intend do go with?

Why, thank you.

I am not quite sure how you come to your conclusions about my alleged asphyxiation issue.







And I think that if anything, the customer has gone out of his way to make it a flame fest. Check out the thread on AR. Somebody posted the quote in this thread as well. Posting on three different forums yet NEVER ONCE picking up the damn phone (!!!!) smells like barbecue to me.



I have no experience whatsoever with PacNor, or with any other custom barrel maker, other than what I hear and read.

I believe I have heard negative stories from all of the big names in the business.



However, I have learned to take this kind of talk with a grain of salt, as there is usually two sides to a story.

So, while I have no stake in this barrel game, the customer here was leading a smear campaign while never having made the effort to make things right with pacnor.



PacNor, on the other hand, did make that effort.

Mathias

I will just have to disagree, what you perceive to be a smear campaign I'd consider a person po'd. The simplest solution to all this would have been Pac Nor refunding the money at the moment the problem was brought to their attention. If it's fine they simply could have re-sold or just ate it and none of this would even have happened. Thats a part of doing business, I would never want a person to be "stuck" with my product. As to the head up the butt comment, I'll apolgize even though I still think they're is merit in my observation that some base their opinions on the popular concensus. This may or may not apply to you and I shouldn't have assumed as such. I've walked in this guys shoes myself and hence the added passion.

Matt,
Perhaps the confusion in regards to why I didn't contact PacNor comes from the fact that you think I was given a person to contact at PacNor.
The truth was as I had stated earlier was that PacNor was given my e-mail address by my gunsmith for them to contact me to explain why they felt they shouldn't stand behind the barrel that was sent back to them.
Since I didn't hear from them I assume that they weren't too concerned about customer satisfaction.
I don't want to get into ...Did the gunsmith actually send the e-mail or not. I saw no reason for him to lie.

So when you discuss my first post I agree it was directed to PacNor. Mainly in regards to their response to customer satisfaction & that was mainly based on what I had experienced up to that point since I never heard a word from them when I felt they had a way to contact me.
Again, I assumed that they weren't too concerned about me as a customer & end user since I never heard a word from them up to that point.

Hope that clears it up.
If not.... I'm just going to let the hens here keep on pecking this dead bird & go on down the road.

In regards to the insults & the name calling from the Big Kahuna asa BS.....you're the kind of guy who thinks he's empowered when he can sit in front of his computer & throw garbage & insults out there with minimal reprocussions.
I would love to spend some time with you alone......so I could trade opinions with you & see just how Big you are when you have man standing in front of you & not a computer screen.
It would be Fun !!

Go for it Fat Man.....I'm sure you'll be coming back with something that shows your moral fiber & what a Punk you truely are.

Here is a passage from an e-mail I sent to "Chris" at Pac-Nor barrels. I have ordered five barrels from them and 4 have been sent back for some problem or another. I really don't want to hear a bunch of accolades for these guys; you won't convince me to change my mind. I only want to inform you out there of my experiences. Apparently ther are others who have had the same bad experiences


Chris. The "copy to" address above is for a Mr. Tim Crowton, a client of mine. Please explain to him what you tried to convince me of. This is the 4th barrel of five I have ordered from you that have been returned! I consider this and unacceptable condition, especially since you accused me of "gouging" the bore on the barrel.

This barrel showed evidence of impurities in the steel base metal in the form of carbon deposits or some such and exhibited small cracks throughout the exterior. It was returned by the client after he discovered it.

Jim


This was the original post on AR please note what Jim said in this post " The "copy to" address above is for a Mr. Tim Crowton, a client of mine. Please explain to him what you tried to convince me of "

That's what I received from Jim in regards to PacNor having a means to contact me.

End of story

Lemme guess....you work at Burger King too?

I reckon you'd not forget that quality time,as it would leave an impression(or two)......................

To me it comes down to choosing between who to believe...the Smith or PacNor.
I don't believe I saw Chris state that he did not get an email from your smith regarding this, so who knows.
But he did point out that they felt it was rust spots, not material imperfections.
Maybe they just drew a line with just how far to go with a warranty.

******This post is directed at Hitem, not Dempsey...sorry for the confusion.*******

I still have a hard time with your smith giving this deal to you in the first place.

He assembled the product, and you paid him, correct?

Regardless of whether PacNor is at fault or not, it is he who should own up to his product and "take the little hit", as was suggested.

To the butt issue...like I said, I have no experience with PacNor other than hearsay.
I don't believe I have expressed favor towards PacNor products in this thread, especially since I have no first hand experience.
I may have stood up for what I believe to be a legitimate company, and I took issue with some complaints that didn't make much sense to me.
Does that qualify as ass-lickin'?

Hindsight is 20/20, so I agree that PacNor should have just ate it from the GetGo.
A small company can't do that with every case that comes their way. They have to draw the line somewhere. See it from their point of view: A barrel with rust spots comes in, it's been sitting in a safe for a year. Mmh...regardless of what actually may have happened, what does it appear like?
The smith should have had a lot bigger part in this.

Guys,

I too have several Pac-Nor barreled rigs, and thay have all been great. My last barrel was bought a couple years ago. John Ricks installed all these barrels on accurized 700s.

To me, most of the posts here have just been noise. HOWEVER, if John Ricks has complained about quality control with Pac-Nor--and I'll contact him to hear from him first hand--then it is an issue worth looking into.

Blaine

Matthias

I think what role the Smith plays is variable. I know if I assembled, say a transmission for a customer and the parts I used failed, I would rebuild it and take the hit and deal with the parts company. If the customer brought in the parts I'd be less forgiving. I don't really think we know exactly where this project sits now unless I missed something. My point about the butt kissing is that posting a negative comment regarding Pac Nor is always a sure way to get things rolling here, ditto a Rem 700. Post the exact same comment about several other similiar products and there will be a group effort joining in the fray on the other side of the arguement. Like I said, I was out of line with my head up the butt comment, I can't take it back as it's been printed, I can only admit my own error. I agree a company does have to draw the line somewhere, but if a company is putting out a solid product and service then this would seldom have to be done, and the times it is done, it's in the best interest of the company to do so even if they're justified in claiming there is nothing wrong with the product which I happen to disagree with if I was forced to venture a quess which is exactly what we are all doing here except for the customer, the smith and the company. I think I've got my fill as it's turning towards a pissing match. I'll sit back and enjoy the combatants exchange insults and maybe find one I can use in the future. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hitem,

I would kindly like to ask you to take it easy on my friend, Big Stick. He at times gets his feelings hurt, especially being call a Fat Man.....he's only a little plump...but quickly loses it during the summer months.


Oh, one last thing...and this is for Stick....my ass would be what was spread over your face spewing noxious fumes while you slumbered on the couch and a hole in the ground is where I deposit the solids from my ass.....so I gracefully reject your idea that I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground. (grin)

Now please continue. Thank you for your time.

Naw...I think I am just about done. I guess we'll part disagreeing peacefully. I can live with that.

Big Momma just looked at my like I was nuts,as I rolled outta the chair laughing.

I saw your name on the Forum board and knowed it was gonna be good.

You done yourself proud!..................

howling on this end too

What especially touched me,was how sincerely I knowed you meant it.

Some ass kisser had a Thread regarding "The folks on this site",up on the Campfire board,your heartfelt message brought a tear to my eye.

I'll getcha................(grin)

Stayed out of this one !!!!!

Big Stick,

I KNEW you wouldn't be swayed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If my preferred gunsmith told me he wanted to work with Pac-Nor barrels, I'd have no problem with that. Not that I have a gunsmith though. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I really think Hitem took the proper actions at first. He called the gunsmith, then waited for the gunsmith to correct the problem. I would assume that the 'smith had dealt with Pac-Nor more often than Hitem (we don't all have your reputation <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) and should have had more 'pull' getting things worked out. Between the time the 'smith came back with bad news, and we started 'monday night quarterbacking' this whole deal, old Hitem failed to contact Pac-Nor directly. That has been corrected, by Hitem (strangly not by Pac-Nor, if I read everything correctly. The phone works two ways <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />), and now he and Pac-Nor have resolved the problem.

I don't see the need to degrade this thread with a bunch of insults towards someone who is much like us. A guy into buying and building semi-custom rifles. A guy who agreed to a Pac-Nor barrel at that.

I know YOUR mileage will vary! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One little [bleep] thought keeps running through my mind when I hear of someone bragging about sending back 4 of 5 anything... They would have to be small things to continue going back after the first couple problems... and maybe there is a basic problem with someone not having an idea what he SHOULD be getting. We also have no idea what the other problems were nor how the complaints were resolved.

Hasn't he heard the adage about screw me once, shame on you; screw me twice, shame on me? I am less than impressed with the way the posting was handled, though hitem did not start it, he says. But they venom was clearly there and pacnor had already agreed to refund the money...
art

I have several rifles in need of a barrel upgrade. If anyone would care to donate a couple of Pac-Nor tubes (because they lost faith reading this thread) I would be more than happy to have them installed on my rifles. .284 and .30 caliber please....... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night...........................

RD

Pac-Nor has gained another customer here, when the time comes. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Darkside

Welcome to all of you who consider me to be and idiot. To all of those pac-nor fans who have raked me over, this is from the horses mouth. It only took about two weeks for Chris at pac-nor to finally respond. Someone mentioned I should have called on the phone, I did and talked to him, that is when I got pissed off because he so much as called me a liar and accused me of some practic I do not do (Crowning type). My beef with them is not so much about quality as it is with customer satisfaction. When I forwarded my clients request for a refund, I was told in no uncertain terms that a refund was not an option. Now what the hell do I do? My cleint says he wants a refund and I can't get it. In retrospect, and I have not read all of the threads here, I heard there was a refund in the offing. I have not heard anything to verify this. I think we can let this die, I stand by my original observation.

Jim

As it works out, I at one time in the past, owned the experimental barrel making equipment, built by Pratt and Whitney for the Springfield Armory when the Government owned it. So, one could safely say, I have made a barrel! And, I have several of those barrels in a safe as we speak. What may I ask, have you ever done besides buy firearms and run your mouth to people you don't know. As you do know, I will bet the farm at the drop of a hat. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dan

Blind faith kept people buying ENRON stock, and there are people even today that don't believe Enron did anything wrong. Good Luck. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dan

I have a Pac-Nor barreled 6mm Ackley Improved (that I actually had barreled before joining this forum!) that I am very satisfied with. This rifle is a sporter-weight hunter, but I'm thinking, if I was so inclined - and had the $$'s for the scope, mounts, hunts, etc., - it would be a perfect candidate to enroll me into the 1,000 yard PD club! It definitely kills coyotes and prairie dogs dead at closer ranges, shoots a pretty fair group on paper when I am so inclined, isn't prone to copper-fouling, and etc., etc., etc.

Pac-Nor has had a Rem 700 SA of mine now for about a month, as it is in line to become a #1-contoured, McMillan-stocked .25-284 killing machine. Big Stick converted me to a .25-284 and McMillan wannabe, but he didn't turn me on to Pac-Nor. Pac-Nor's had a good reputation for many years. I first read about Ross Seifried's addiction to Pac-Nor barrels for his five-shot Ruger Bisley revolver conversions. He had much good to say about the company and the barrels turned out by them.

Pac-Nor will absolutely have my business in the future. I've got a M700 LA and a M660 that will some day grow up to be a Pac-Nor barreled, McMillan-stocked custom. I'm not an "expert" like most on this board seem to be, but I am a hunter/shooter with some disposable income in my pocket and enough knowledge and experience to make me dangerous - and I believe that's what comprises a majority of the most popular barrel makers' customers.

The End!

Danno,

This horse stopped whinnying a while ago. A few more shots upside the head ain't going to bring it back to life.

Give it up already. It's XMAS, go do something nice for someone.

Happy Holidays,

Tony.

Well said Hicountry,

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night.

Darkside

Lemme guess...after you completed the Panama Canal,you saved the Ore,builtya a campfire and rendered it down. Then put it in your spaceship,flew it to your lab in Transylvania and put it in the hopper of your barrel makin' machine?

Then while in the process of inventing the Internet,you licked the sample tubes expelled via the machine,tasted the winner and rewrote the records in the Shooting World.

Plausible,all plausible. Give or take....................

Oops.

Merry Christmas.....................

NO, I didn't do all those childish things, I do however, do the things with firearms you can't.

I know for a fact Santa Claus is not from Alaska!!

Merry Christmas. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Dan

Dan, like I said, Sacred Cows.

I would concur that it's about time to let it go.

Sorry to correct you there, Stick, but Mr. Al Gore invented the Internet.

Sigh.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hey, my Dad can beat up your Dad!

Surely only with Dan's help...................(grin)

Well, I wouldn't want my opponent to get killed, quartered, chopped to bits, and minced now, would I???

I would like you, to tell me, just who, gives a sh:t what you say, about anything.
Grow up! Buy a dog, or something that can't figure you out in less than a minute.
Merry Christmas

Dan

Slow down guys. It is Christmas Eve, after all.
"Can't we just all get along?"

What I'm wondering is if the barrel was cracked then why didn't the "gunsmith" who rebarreled the action notice them? I find it hard to believe that a barrel just sitting in a closet for one year suddenly developes several cracks, rusting and/or pitting yes, cracks no. Then when my smith and PacNor couldn't come to an agreement on how to remedy the problem then I would contact PacNor myself. I don't know about you guys but I can't afford to let the price of a new rifle barrel slide just because someone didn't contact me and I was too lazy, dumb,bored, etc. to contact them myself. I agree Pacor should have contacted the gun owner when they couldn't reach an agreement with the smith that did the work. I wonder why PacNor and the smith couldn't agree on a fix for the problem. In the end the guy still got his money back, even after ONE YEAR. Go to a store, ANY store, and buy something, put it in your closet for a year, let it gut rusty, and then take it back and try to get your money back. They'll look at you like your brain is rusty and has a crack in it. Seems to me the experiments PacNor did on the barrel should show if it was cracked or not. I'm far from an expert on rifle barrels but it seems to me a cracked barrel chambered for the 280 Rem would never hold up to having a .358 diameter bullet fired through it. I'd expect the barrel would go BOOM, big time. Oh, and I'm still getting PacNor to rebarrel my action.

Here's the explanation from smith and customer on the alleged cracks: They were not visible on the Stainless Steel, only after getting bluing (or inletting compound) on it and wiping it off they saw that there were holes/cracks/or whatever.

I wouldn't be surprised if they used an unturned barrel blank for this childish test, only impressing morons. I don't have a problem with them shooting a 375 bullet in the 7mm barrel.
But, Chris made the statement he plugged a 30 caliber barrel and then shot a bullet through it and it didn't split the barrel. Only a damn fool would believe that he used a standard hunting barrel.
As far as the stress cracks go it is possible, but highly improbable. The steel is or should have been certified, in as much as the steel in made in lots there would be hundreds of barrels made from this lot. I'm not buying into either story. Stress cracks can come from improper heat treating after the button has been thru the barrel. If I had been involved, I would have polished the barrel and then magnafluxed it. Every high school in the US has microscopes, and I have used one now and then to look at something. I'm sure it has taken more than one mistake to turn this into a full blown fiasco. The truth will never be known. Accurate guesses cannot be made on poor information.

Dan

Thanks Dan. You have finally given me a couple of answers I have been hounding you for the entire thread. I can live with those answers.

Dan - first you say this:

Statement 1



Statement 2



Then you say this:



But, since you freely admit you have zero information regarding your second statement, and in your first statement conveniently overlook the fact that PACNOR did indeed use hitems blank, what does that say about the accuracy of your statements or "guesses". Whatever you want to call them.

Regards,
Scott

Interesting thread. Which is the main reason I install barrels and will NOT have a barrel manufacturer install one. This way I can guarantee the machining (chamber, threads, crown etc.). I cannot guarantee the accuracy since I didn't make the barrel, but to date (knock on wood) I've had excellent results with Douglas, Shilen and Krieger barrels. Waiting 11 months to get a rifle back is unreasonable, IMHO. I'm presently waiting for a Krieger barrel to install in a customer's rifle and I'll have the job done within a week after receiving the barrel.

Merry Christmas to all....

To the PC crowd, Happy Hanaramakwanzmas

capt, dano needs to buy a dog <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

"But, since you freely admit you have zero information regarding your second statement, and in your first statement conveniently overlook the fact that PACNOR did indeed use hitems blank, what does that say about the accuracy of your statements or "guesses". Whatever you want to call them.



Regards,

Scott"



Take this in a nice way please, the way it is presented.



I called Chris on the phone and was told more about this subject than you know. Therefore, I may have posted something more, than Chris wrote in his posts. And, I didn't do a direct quote in the statements I made, about the subject in which you quoted me. So, unless you personally saw the bullets going thru the exact barrel in question, you are not qualified to make the statement that they were.



State number two:



You can read his post for yourself, he made 2 on the subject of shooting a round thru an obstructed barrel. If you believe that BS try it yourself and let me know the outcome. Or from where your blood came froooooom. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Statement three:



The story has changed too many times to make heads or tails of the truth.



Dan

I have a bird dog that's smarter than some of the posters on this site. LOL

Dan

In other words, Chris Dichter from PacNor was lying?

I would rather say, he was working the crowd. But, you are getting the idea. What do you think about the subject of shooting a round thru an obstructed barrel? If you think its a good idea, do it!

Dan

No thank you.
What do you think of driving a car into a wall at 60 miles per hour?
Done every day at labs around the country....wanna go try?
Setting and who's doing it has a lot to do with sanity of an activity like that.

The guys NOT a lab.

Dan

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

So ....you had sex with your rifle............................ <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

rdinak,

Gawd that was good!!!!!

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

OK, jnrifleworks. The name implies you are a riflesmith, if so I'm sure you have seen a pressure problem sometime in your work. I have caused a pressure problem more than once, and I've seen some strange things happen with just a little too much pressure, not some case full of pistol powder in a rifle.
Any one that has ever had a set of bullet making dies knows a rock chucker will extrude a jacket full of lead from any size to a MUCH smaller size with little effort. P.O.A screwed around with shooting larger bullets in a rifle barrel without blowing up anything. And I might add I don't have a problem with anyone that wants to try an duplicate his work.

However he also showed us how to destroy an action and/or split a barrel by shooting the right size bullet with too much powder in the case.

So, when a guy makes a claim that he shot a 150 grain 30-06 bullet into a 180 slug lodged in the barrel without event, I'm not buying it!
You will find some direct quotes below that make me and I know others think something is amiss here. I also have friends I try to backup if they need me, but not to the point of making myself look like a dumb bell.


"I noticed another post,saying to plug the bore with mud and try it.I've done this in the past,but I hammered a 180gr. lead bullet into the barrel,and shot a 150gr. jacketed bullet into it, chambered in a 30/06,It left a bulge in the stainless barrel,and vaporized the lead bullet in a large cloud of white smoke."

"Cas,when we shot the lead bullet,that was pounded down the bore,we use a full 30/06 case of Unique.That much pistol powder welds the case to the chamber walls,and it takes alot of machineing to get ready for the next shot."

In other words, the guy (Chris) is lying. Isn't that what you're saying?

No, What the fool is saying is he cannot keep the barrels straight... the barrel in question is CM, clearly he is refering to a different barrel that he plugged and then shot through. Notice he refers to it as a SS barrel? He is failing to keep things straight yet claiming insider info from a personal phone call... I call BS.

He may be calling Chris a liar, but it is from a position of ignorance. Another point... he keeps calling for shooting with an obstructed barrel because virtually NO barrel will withstand it... what does that prove? How can blowing up a barrel in an expected overpressure event mean anything? I smell gaseous coloids being blown up ticklish orifii...
art

Sitka deer, email me please.

Its damn apparent you have a short memory for what you read, if in fact you have read all HIS posts!! Also, I kinda knew, I was typing too fast for morons like you!! What a *** joke you are.

Dan

I think Pac Nor should perform a repeat of the obstructed bore test they speak about and put a mpeg of that on their site, should be a tad bit more interesting than shooting fish in a barrel. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Here ya go sh:tka, if you read slowly, so as to understand each and every word, you may, in fact see what was said by your great leader. So there is no misunderstanding, these little short lines mean, someone other than this poster penned what is written," " " " ". You will notice (if you have your glasses on) the lines of wit below although not signed, were written your hero (Chris). A word of advice for YOU. Don't eat yellow snow again, as it may be the reason your hard drive crashed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"I noticed another post,saying to plug the bore with mud and try it.I've done this in the past,but I hammered a 180gr. lead bullet into the barrel,and shot a 150gr. jacketed bullet into it, chambered in a 30/06,It left a bulge in the stainless barrel,and vaporized the lead bullet in a large cloud of white smoke.

Cas,when we shot the lead bullet,that was pounded down the bore,we use a full 30/06 case of Unique .That much pistol powder welds the case to the chamber walls,and it takes alot of machineing to get ready for the next shot"

Merry Christmas

Dan

Danno
All I have to say is read the post, it is very clear we are talking multiple barrels. The plugged barrel was SS and the "defective" barrel was CM. It is obvious, though there is no reason for me to assume a person of yor superior intellect stands a chance of understanding...
art

Danno,

You really should use a spell checker on your posts.

You've gone and mispelled your name when you signed it.

Hey, being XMAS and all, I'll help you....."Danno". <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hope you are having a better holiday than your posts indicate.

Tony. (LMAO !!!!)

What is obvious Sh:tka, is you need to have your vision prescription checked.
No one and I mean no one, has implied, inferred or even said that it was the same barrel, DUH. I see by your post you think the CM barrel was defective. Maybe it was, who knows. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Danno <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I must say, I'm surprised you're not out in the wild with your dogs running the varmints (very small deer) so you can shoot them with your shotgun. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Danno

Danno,

Nope, don't do the dogs thing.

It is very popular further south in Va. though.

BTW, here is a few pics of our "small" Northern Va. "varments" (none taken with dogs BTW) :











BTW, that last "varment" NETTED 163 BC and was shot by my buddy 163bc (get the name !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />) and was top 5 in the state of Va. in the year he shot it. Yes, there were 4 other Virginia "varments" that were bigger.

Danno, if you have any other stupid statements to make, I would be more than happy to correct them.

Happy Holidays,

Tony.

You ma hero.



Danno



Varmint is not spelled any other way!!



Danno



When Sh:tka sees those deer he's gonna say they are not a 163 <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Danno

Jeezuz H Krist what have I done. Al I ever wanted was to get my client a refund on a barrel that HE thought was defective and was stonewalled by PC! I can't believe you idiots can get so sidetracked and it only took 5 pages of input. Let it die!!!!

Can I take that to mean that YOU did not think the barrel was defective?

JKOb,



I'd tend to agree that this has gone way overboard. But, a scared cow of the 24hourcampfire was attacked, and therefore was defended to the last man. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



If Pac-Nor had given the time and attention it's giving that barrel now, in an effort to contact the buyer and make some sort of deal, then none of this would have happened.



We've drug Hitem through the wringer for not contacting Pac-Nor, yet the reverse seems not to be true. Again, sacred cow syndrome. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Perhaps the reason Pac-Nor did not contact the customer is because they're so busy? Yet they find time to rechamber a single barrel many times over and test it to destruction.



Some say that Pac-Nor has a right to defend themselves, and that's true. I just would have like to see them put all this time and effort into satisfying their customer, rather than the route they took.



I stated above that if my gunsmith chose to use Pac-Nor that would be okay with me. Well, I've decided that since the best gunsmiths I know prefer NOT to use Pac-Nor that I will accept that for what it's worth.



Due to their recommendations, and the way that Pac-Nor has chosen to publically humilitate their customer in this case, I will not buy a Pac-Nor barrel. The good news being, that will leave more barrels for the fans. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mathias - actually, Jim Kobe admits to not even looking at it after it came back from the customer. He just packed it up and sent it back to PacNor.



The sequence of events sounds to me like:



Customer stores barrel for a year, and unfortunately the rust preventative did not manage to stop the formation of rust during this period.



Customer examines barrel and thinks it is cracks and/or inclusions in the barrel.



Customers gunsmith sends it back without investigation.



PacNor said it is perfectly fine, other than the rust - what are you talking about? And is reluctant in refunding money. After all, a fine line must be walked between admitting to non-existent flaws and "The customer is always right". In hindsight, perhaps not the best course of action.



Massive Internet FUBAR happened.





<><><><><><><><><><>



Mr. Kobe, please don't be surprised at the fuss that has occurred. You WERE the one that started the posting over on AR after all. Remember, the internet forum bomb causes a lot of collateral damage. So I mean you no disrespect when I say that while there are now some people that will now stay away from PacNor, there are probably a few that will now stay away from you.



Regards,

Scott



Edited for clarity - SAT

BW - I don't consider PacNor a sacred cow. I have a couple of their barrels and am happy enough with them. I'm also happy with my Douglas barrels and would be happy to to try Kreiger, Shilen, Hart etc... My take is that PacNor makes a good barrel, available in an excellent combination of twists, contours, materials and calibers, and delivery time. Where else could I have received a .25 cal #1 SS with a 6 groove 1 in 10" twist barrel in a week?

I just had to take issue with DFC and his constant blowing of smoke, and in my last post, with Jim Kobe starting the whole mess, and then being dismayed that the flames got out of control. What did he expect, that every one on the internet would agree with him, and boycott PacNor for eternity?

As for PacNor not contacting the end user (hitem), I agree, that is unfortunate. But, what kind of time frame are we talking about? I don't think this was ever revealed. Does PacNor really have to contact the end user of the barrel? After all, isn't PacNors customer the gunsmith to whom the barrel was sold?


Regards,
Scott

That's sorta my take on this whole cluster*#&%

PC is an end used oriented company who advertises heavily for customers, if they don't want to talk to the customers after the sale they should get the hell out of the business! And you have NO right to tell us what happened between the customer and PC, you weren't there!

Danno

He's got the right to say whatever he wants. A right frequently taken advantage of by you, Dan.

I don't believe he was stating absolute facts, but rather his take on things.

Chill out.

BW,

I've got tubes from most Makers and have yet to receive a call from any of them,to get a sitrep after the installation.

I view Email as a half-assed attempt at communication,if only because of my computer ineptness and ability to crash my system on a regular basis. Meaning,I savvy that [bleep] happens within that vehicle.

Long before I'd start bitching and moaning(about any product),I'd be on the horn and talk man to man,with the highest ranking gent I could get hold of. I don't wanna hear guesses,speculation or inaccuracies and want someone who can/will make descisions based upon my input. They call it cuttin' to the chase.

But that approach takes much for granted. Mainly common sense and the ability to dial a phone,both of which were too challenging for the 'Smith and Customer. I don't run my affairs pointing fingers at others and have little difficulty picking up the ball,when someone else fumbles it and have yet to require an agent to help me with merchandise purchases/returns/queries.

It is a sad state,to think anything other than that the end consumer was responsible for his own satisfaction. That it was an inability of his,to contact the Manufacturer after the 'Smith in question was unable/unwilling to help,is something that falls squarely in the "Tuff [bleep] Files".

Doing the Tattletale Thing on various Forums,was an invite for copious proof to the contrary. It has been offered,is convincing and leaves little to the imagination,as well as being highly entertaining.

I'd concur on another Poster's summation,that the one who took a lick on this whining,is the 'Smith. He offered nothing to grant a warm fuzzy,in any area,while generating lotsa free press for the Manufacture in question.

My guess is,Chris is tickled,as I know I sure as hell would be.......................

"The sequence of events sounds to me like:"

Well, just what the hell does that statement mean then? Yeah, I know how to put a spin on a subject. But painting sh:t green don't make it grass.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Danno

Alright Dan....(All this is typed slowly, on big key-keyboard, and with bright contrasting colors)
Just what does it mean??? Let's see..real slow..."sounds to me like:" kinda indicates a personal opinion on things, maybe like the guy is trying to say: "Hey, I don't know about anybody else, but I THINK that's what transpired."
Why is that so hard to understand, Dan? Can't you just let go?

capt e,

I too feel that Pac-Nor makes a good barrel. There't too many happy customers here to doubt otherwise. But it's often said that a customer should always go with his gunsmiths choice of barrel manufacture. Thanks to this little debacle I know now the opinions of two highly respected gunsmiths about Pac-Nor quality. Unfortunately for Pac-Nor, the opinions were not favorable.

Please don't include me in any of DFC's dealing!!! Just because we both are taking a simular stance on this subject doesn't mean I agree with anything he says. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Quite frankly I get confused with all his babbling and ignore those posts.

About the time frame issue... I'm not ready to cut Pac-Nor any slack for not contacting the customer quickly, until the same slack is granted Hitem. You ask if Pac-Nor should even be responsible for contacting Hitem, since it was actually the gunsmith who purchased the barrel. Yet in this whole thread Hitem has been repeated berated for contacting the gunsmith and not going to Pac-Nor directly. That's a double standard I'm not willing to support here.

These are just my opinions. I may be the odd man out, but that's okay as it's not a big deal anyhow. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I somewhat agree with you.
I would like to point out that the smith has been a weak link in the equation here. I maintain that if he sold the entire package to the customer, then he is responsible for the entire package. I find it ridiculous to try and direct the customer to PacNor. I understand the smith claims he couldn't get PacNor to respond to his attempts at communication. Whether that's true or not does not matter. I have been involved with retail/service business slightly before, and it wouldn't occur to me to let the customer duke it out with the vendor.

Any bets on how many pages this thread goes on for??????? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


I will even up the anty. If you will PM me your guess the person with the closest guess will win....drum roll please... a Leupold STD 1-pc long action base(slightly used) windage screws and all.

Whats that you say, not enough, well then I will even include a set of Leupold low rings for the base(slightly used) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And to top off the deal to show how special these rings are I will even coat them in PURE Gold Krylon.

I will, out of the goodness of my heart/pocketbook take the hit and pay for shipping. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Darkside

P.S. in the event of a tie I will poll the campfire for a solution. Maybe a very sohisticated method like say Pick-A-Number between 1-100.

Sounds fine and dandy to me....just gotta keep Dan going.

Bet I could win this one purty easy. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rick

P.S.S. No lockin the thread......RICK <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BW,
You've stated "the best gunsmiths I know prefer NOT to use Pac-Nor" and later "Thanks to this little debacle I know now the opinions of two highly respected gunsmiths about Pac-Nor quality." Would you care to expound on this a bit? I was turned on to PAC-NOR through my Carolina Precision .280. Surely John Lewis knows a bit about barrels. My current project is being done up by John Ricks. When I emailed him about this issue he replied that he has NO problems with PAC-NOR, just didn't like chambering the foreign steel they tried last year when domestic supplies dried up.

To offer my thinking on this scenario I can't understand how 1.) the customer feels he's owed anything after the time span and 2) if I'm reading it right and the 'smith procured the barrel how it would be incumbent upon him (the customer) to have any dealings with a supplier to the 'smith even if he were owed something. The prime contract was with the 'smith, not the supplier. If a real problem existed the 'smith should be the one making it right with the customer and it should be he (privately!) working it out with the supplier. I don't understand how folks are giving PAC-NOR heat about their customer service and not the 'smith. Chris offering a refund is above and beyond the call IMO and shows a lot of class.

We is on the same page..................

"if I'm reading it right and the 'smith procured the barrel how it would be incumbent upon him (the customer) to have any dealings with a supplier to the 'smith even if he were owed something. The prime contract was with the 'smith, not the supplier. If a real problem existed the 'smith should be the one making it right with the customer and it should be he (privately!) working it out with the supplier"





That makes good sense. My beef is with the roasting the customer is getting. Seems the popular concensus with some is the customer is a dim wit for not calling Pac Nor direct. One thing that strikes me as odd is the Smith didn't inpect the barrel himself for the "cracks". I think I'm reading this right, someone correct me if I'm wrong. If I were in Pac Nor's shoes I'd have refunded the barrel right off the bat, the Smith and Customer would be satisfied and this would have never happened. I'm quite sure Pac Nor spent far more money with their dog and pony show than it would have cost to refund their barrel, keep a couple people happy and ALL this would have never come to this. I will disagree all things should be kept private. If so then shouldn't all the praise of Pac Nor also be kept private? Your saying it's ok to praise them but not to be critical. I disagree.

This has been entertaining (grin)...

Journeyman hit the nail on the head. The 'smith is the weak link. It is absolutely beyond me that he would send the barrel along to PN without inspecting it himself first.

Personally, I believe the 'smith should be the one going to bat for his customer and Hitem should never have needed to be in the loop. I'm also suspicious of what happened while the barrel was in possession of the 'smith and how long he had this barrel stashed away waiting for a customer, the conditions of storage, etc. I have to believe there is more to this story.......

Anyone else trying to ware out the refresh button on their browser? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


This is TOOOOO Good.

Darkside

I have to agree that the smith should be the one making it right/ talking/pushing pac nor. The customer should'nt even be involved other than calling the smith to see whats up. Another biggy in this whole saga is the year time lapse.
I do all the mechanical work on our farms fleet of equipment which is quite extensive and parts are definately in the top five expenses. Sometimes I have problems with parts with things that are'nt really noticable. When this happens I do what I have to to figure out what is wrong and who is responsable before I confront them even if it means getting/ paying a third knowledgable party to examine it before I confront the person I think should be responsable. If they start to yammer I hit them with facts and they just look at the ground and say OK to making it right as the power of right is a powerful thing.
It is unbelievable to me that the smith did'nt examine the problem areas and confirm the cracks/pits. A little fine sand paper and a good magnifying glass/good light would definately of told the truth if the metal was pitted or had hairline cracks. Hell, I catch hairline cracks in things that would'nt catch a needle if you passed it over it and this supposedly could be felt with a finger nail. Can't imagine Pac-nor not standing behind a barrel that would have such but as the smith never confirmed the problems the unsatisfied parties will never believe they were wrong or have the ammo to prove they were right even if that ammo was a confirming examination by the smith.

I agree 100%. It is the customers fault. He took his brand X (Mauser) action to a brand X (unknown) gunsmith and had him install a brand X (pacnor) barrel. Now the only one happy is the brand X barrel maker, he has impressed the shooting community with his chambering skills and last but not least, the only man in history to shoot a case full of Unique pistol powder, In a 30-06 and live to tell about it, which, by the way should give a pressure reading of around a quarter of a million pounds, however, it won't because the barrel leaves the action well before all the powder is in full blossom.



"I noticed another post,saying to plug the bore with mud and try it.I've done this in the past,but I hammered a 180gr. lead bullet into the barrel,and shot a 150gr. jacketed bullet into it, chambered in a 30/06,It left a bulge in the stainless barrel,and vaporized the lead bullet in a large cloud of white smoke."



"Cas,when we shot the lead bullet,that was pounded down the bore,we use a full 30/06 case of Unique.That much pistol powder welds the case to the chamber walls,and it takes alot of machineing to get ready for the next shot."



Danno

It seems kinda pointless arguing with you Dan, but it is fun nonetheless.
I think everybody's favorite scapegoat right now is the smith, and I concur.
You seem to have a hard time believing PacNor about their unorthodox pressure testing methods.
See how some of us feel listening to you?

Journeyman,



No, I will not expound on what gunsmiths I used as a reference to form my opinion. No need drawing more folks into the fray. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



About Chris giving a refund. If I read all this right, the first answer was "No" to the gunsmith. It wasn't until this hit the airways that they became so generous. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />



Different people may have their page displays set for different numbers of posts. We need to find a good standard to make our bets on. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Number of total posts comes to mind...

When DFC hits 1000 he'll go back to sleep. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Danno

I'm still waiting for the mpeg of the '06,unique,plugged bore test on the Pac Nor site. I really want to see it and only for entertainment purposes <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Forget about the rest of the stuff. This would be fantastic video if shot properly.

This horse is dead. a dead horse dont need whipping. a dead barrel dont need threading. a dead thread dont need rebarreling. A year is forever to inspect and return ANYTHING. nothing else matters unless there was a one year satisfaction guarantee. And if there was, then that is all that matters.

And I admit this is more amusing than watching paint dry.

I am in the market for a couple of new barrels. My smith was quoted delivery times in the 3-5 month time frame, for 26 inch 7mm barrels... Gee, think I will go with either Krieger, Pacnor, Shilen, Schneider, Lothar Walther, or whoever else can get one made and delivered in weeks not months.. But I wont wait a frigging year to inspect it!!! That takes the cake for moronics.

And anyone that defends the right of a one year inspection period for an UNUSED PRODUCT, is entitled to an honorary degree in MORONICS.

Jameister (MS Moronics)

jameister

My gawd man, relax <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I just like seeing things blow up. If it's dead why in the heck are you carrying on like a seven year old girl. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Obviously it ain't dead to you. As far as someone being a moron for not inspecting something for a year, I usually have several things going at once, when I pick up a barreled action I don't do a exam for cracks so small inletting black is needed to bring it out to attention. Whether there were cracks or not, not noticing something so small for a year isn't that big a deal to me. I've had barreled actions sitting for a year waiting for more $$ to buy a stock or finish one up, I bet it's VERY common. And all in good FUN I just had to include this pic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

hey dempster: consider yourself recipient of an honorary degree!!!

But where did you get that picture of my wife?

jameister

Thanks <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Hope it's a Doctorate. Ah, thats your wife <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I don't know nothing about that pic <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I too, have read this entire thread and followed it from the beginning. I don't have and never have had any Pacnor barrels. I have used about every other kind except Schnieder and Lothar Walther and really like Lilja, Hart and Krieger the best. I have had good luck with Douglas, Shaw, McGowen, and many other smaller manufactures though also. My gunsmith prefers Lilja because they are practically in his backyard but he also does use some Pacnor barrels. I can't say whether I will use a Pacnor in the future or not.

What has bothered me about this entire thread is that the owners complaints were not really addressed by Pacnor. We know they can take pictures of bullets that have been resized in the barrel of question, but why have we never seen the barrel itself. Why didn't we see photos of the rust they say was present? That would have made a bigger impression on me than trying to squeeze oversized bullets down the barrel. As mentioned P.O. Ackley tried most of these things many years ago and it really doesn't prove anything new.

I am reminded of what someone once told me he was told to do while working for Sears and Roebuck in regards to their warranty on tools. He was told, "If someone brings in a double-bitted axe and you can tell they were out in the field chopping stones with it, don't ask why they were doing it, just give them a new one". This is what wins sales for companies. It takes satisfied customers, and one unsatisfied one can lose a lot of business for them. This may have very well been the case here. All the folks telling about there good experiences will probably be forgotten. The one unhappy customer won't be. Maybe that isn't fair, but that is the way it works in most cases.

Mud test barrel

In other words, Dan, Chris Dichter was lying. Right?
Can you actually come out and say those words?
Surely YOU aren't afraid of some scolding criticism, right?

Matthias
By profession I am a personality profiler and shrink. The work I do covers many areas from law enforcement work in criminal profiling to interpersonal conflict resolution and team-building.

The search I ran of a certain poster led me to the ridiculous thread in the classifieds that led to the bet and the fireworks associated. I have seldom been so entertained!

Now the question I have for you; Do you really worry about what DFC has to say about anything? While it is possible some of his claims are true to some degree, the type of person you are dealing with is anything but the "real deal."

Some critical points that sealed it included posting that he would tie up the money on the bet as if whispering to co-conspirators. He wants to include everybody into his little game as long as HE is the ringleader. In general a profile of an individual like that includes fabrication at every level; they are almost always physically small and will always lie about their size (how much would you care to bet DFC does not reach his posted height?); they are smarter than average, yet tell everyone they are not only much smarter than they are, but also smarter than everyone else; They are quitters and rounders, starting a lot of projects and finishing few; They are great idea guys usually, but lack the work ethic to take the project all the way; They constantly delude themselves into believing they are not being transparent and they are really being believed.

There are plenty of other traits carried by folks like this, but the funniest is the adage about tangled webs... as the cliches describe empty barrels making more noise and ladies protesting too much, the signature line is exactly the same thing as "Trust me!" Would you buy a used car from that man? I would not.

The reason he does not answer questions is he has learned keeping his mouth shut is usually a better plan... unfortunately he does not take his own advice enough... Did not really intend to swat a hornets' nest, but frankly have little concern about one little blossom sniffer. My apologies to all offended by my remarks, save perhaps one...
Maytag

Find a new line of work, you are a piss poor profiler, and you watch too much TV. 3 posts huh?



Dan



And, all 3 are trying to belittle someone!!!!! You must think you're something special, "only to ya momma" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />





Dan

"Now the question I have for you; Do you really worry about what DFC has to say about anything? While it is possible some of his claims are true to some degree, the type of person you are dealing with is anything but the "real deal." "

If you read and I think you did, the entire 30-06 thread, you must know by now, I'm a put up or shut up kind of a guy. So it's your turn, mouthy poster. Put up or STFU. I stand 100% behind everything I said in that thread! Is that plain enough for you? If you do decide to put up, the terms posted on the 30-06 thread will be used here. If the bet is too much for you to cover on your $35000. a year salary, we can adjust it down to a more suitable level, I detect a feminine flair to your post, are you a female? If not, do you like females?

Dan

Maytag,

it appears that you have caused a hissy fit somewhere in NM, if the location is to be believed. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />
badger

I don't really believe a lot of what Dan has to say, just because of the pompous way everything is put forth.
I am trying to get Dan to actually come out and say that Mr. Dichter was lying. That's what Dan keeps implying, so why not come out and say it?

It's good fun to poke a stick at Dan, ain't it?
Like I said earlier, all bark and slobber.

No.

Maytag,

Believe you have it pegged. Thanks for taking the time to post that.

maytag - I don't have your credentials, but came to the same conclusion many moons ago over on Shooters.

DFC, you stated that you stand 100% behind everything you said in the 30-06 post. You'd better go back and reread it. I think I posted a picture of a left handed SS Model 70 that you said did not exist.
You may wish to repost and say that about 99% of what you said was true <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I truly believe that at least 225% of what Dan has to say is nuttin but the truth. And most serious riflesmiths agree with him.
Besides, who could argue with a goldmedal winning, money-totin', grandmaster gunsmith barrel maker?

I was so impressed by this thread, I called Penny this morning and ordered a #1 contour, 3 groove, .284, stainless super match barrel. Thanks for helping me decide who to go with. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I take it you didn't discuss this issue of utmost importance with our resident expert of all matters that matter, Dan?
He coulda learned you a thing or two.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Standing behind what I've said has nothing to do with being right!!

I'm allowed to be wrong once in a while, no one died because of it. And, I'm NOT a Winchester authority, never claimed to be either. I do stand behind anything I've ever said, even if I was mistaken on whether Winchester made a certain type of action. I said it and I admit it. However, I don't admit that I was wrong. I've seen bogus photo's before, and like I said, I'm not a Winchester buff.



Dan

I apologize again for plastering DFC, I just felt he was "wasting electrons" as someone else posted. I am happy to see that most had intuited the character already. As the last volley was not too terrible I will add just a little more.

DFC
Sorry I do not get to spend much time here and did not see your questions until now. I had a tough day today at work and did not really intend to look tonight, but I was curious how my post would be received.

Standing behind everything you say would mean that when you bet you meant it. Clearly you did not mean it or the bet would have transpired. You cannot say anything honest about what happened when you posted it was your aim to tie up the gentleman's money. The incredible part is you posted it as though you were showing how sly you are and rounding up the troops to back you. Now that was funny!

There were other questions raised here and on the bet thread where direct questions were avoided by you. I seem to recall something about the size of a bear and your claims were questioned by several folks that seemed to know what they were talking about. I would be delighted to shoot a 10' grizzly bear.

All I could think when I saw the pictures of "your wealth" was who would be foolish enough to appoint you executor of their estate? Now I am probably wrong about that, but the thought did cross my mind. And you are the type to do something exactly like that.

I have read little of what you have posted, yet I find errors in technical aspects of your posts and truthfully I do not know that much about guns. I come here to learn and be entertained.

Do you really think you can intimidate people over the net the way you act in person? Calling into question a person's sexual orientation as a matter of debate shows you have questions about your own. The funny thing is your patterns are so predictable you paint a picture so vivid a shrink could help you by correspondnce and would not have to stomach the ego and posturing in the same office. Have you considered counseling? Actually I already know the answer... there is nothing wrong with you, is there? You honestly could benefit from a little mental health therapy. Just don't try to convince the shrink that it is everybody else at fault. He likely is tired of the line from the last patient like you.
maytag

Maytag,
DFC blows his whistle and you all do tricks for him. Who profiled who here???? Very entertaining. And that part where you analyze an imaginary being from his internet posts was great!
Carry on!

Maytag

Isn't it fun playing make believe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> Nobody knows you from Adam, but I believe you, I really do. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Nobody, absolutely nobody has butted heads with 'ol DFC more than myself. That being said, the bet was a joke on both sides as I see it, one would seem to back peddled then the other. I call it a draw between two ego's who put far to much of their self image in the size of their wallet. I seem to recall it was not DFC but the other fellow who initiated this. As to the size of the bear, I don't know if it's a ten footer or not, but I do know some of the same people also called out a person who posted a pic of a sheep claiming it was illegal, I never saw any conclusive proof it was and I also recall a picture was finaly posted that seemed to satisfy the masses that it was legal. But, I still believe you I really do <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> But then again it really wouldn't matter either way. I'm not here to defend DFC, but to take the anti-bandwagon side which suits me so well. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> How bout a free profile, I'm sure it'd be worth every penny.

p.s.

I think you're one fine babe <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Please allow me,,
You are a mild mannered man with quiet ways but prone to angry outbursts when short of beer. You chose to do business with Pac-Nor because you liked the way it sounds. YOur first big dissapointment in life was in the third grade when you were shunned by a small red haired girl who was taller than you. You were denied a big promotion because a back ground check revealed you had once been arrested for shooting cats in your neighborhood. With a .458. You don't enjoy a rousing game of ping-pong. You are taller now than when you were younger. You have no great respect for Jerry Springer , Pee Wee Herman, or internet forums but enjoy watching them to see what will happen next. You are kind to old people and idiots, unless related to them. You disdain following the crowd and so were probably kicked out of Boy Scouts for wearing your hat backwards. You can probably be trusted with another mans' wife if she is over 80. I could go on but would just be guessing without more information, like your soc sec # and dob. This one is free but the next one will cost plenty. SEnd a money order to DFC and he will escrow the money. Thankyou.
Cyril

ROLMAO, now that's what I call a profile, very damn good. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Dan

"Standing behind everything you say would mean that when you bet you meant it. Clearly you did not mean it or the bet would have transpired. You cannot say anything honest about what happened when you posted it was your aim to tie up the gentleman's money. The incredible part is you posted it as though you were showing how sly you are and rounding up the troops to back you. Now that was funny!"

Are you sure, you know what the hell you're talking about? When the bet was placed the money was tied up until he proved beyond a doubt he had what he claimed in the post. I do believe you are an educated idiot. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"There were other questions raised here and on the bet thread where direct questions were avoided by you. I seem to recall something about the size of a bear and your claims were questioned by several folks that seemed to know what they were talking about. I would be delighted to shoot a 10' grizzly bear."

You won't be hunting Griz, anytime soon on 35K a year, AND it was a Brown Bear, DUH. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"All I could think when I saw the pictures of "your wealth" was who would be foolish enough to appoint you executor of their estate? Now I am probably wrong about that, but the thought did cross my mind. And you are the type to do something exactly like that."

I will bet, I can cover your ass anytime. I keep on hand at least what you make a year. You got a problem with that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Calling into question a person's sexual orientation as a matter of debate shows you have questions about your own."

Tell us about your "sexual orientation", We, well I, already know what you are. My only concern about my sexuality is, when will I need that VIAGRA stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The rest of your post don't deserve an answer.

Dan

DFC, I'm sure you must be bright enough to realize that taxonomically speaking both brown bear and grizzly bear are the same genetic creature, Ursus horribilis?

While Boone & Crockett differentiates the two for obvious scoring reasons, it is merely a line drawn in the sand stating if it is killed on one side, it is considered a brown bear and on the other it is considered a grizzly.

Alaska G&F calls 'em all brown bears, regardless of where you find one.

As to DFC's bear, he's never addressed the questions. Some guides commonly add a foot + to the REAL squared measurement of a bear for their own PR reasons and to make their clients feel warmer and fuzzier. I'm of the camp that says you're showing more respect to the animal to call it what it is and be proud of that. I doubt that DFC's bear is truly 10', but who am I to deny someone of their fishtale. It's a beautiful bear, nonetheless. Again, I am the kind of guy who would be proud of the 9' bear I shot and be happy to refer to it as such (not implying that it couldn't be larger than that). A 9' brown bear is a HELL of a trophy. 'Nuf said.

The sheep in question was a whole different enchilada. I don't want to start that silly argument again, but it wasn't anywhere near the claims. I believe consensus was that it WAS a legal ram, but only due to the age requirement rather than the full curl requirement. The numbers quoted for its horn length, etc. were pure fantasy.

Gents, I thought I might show a pic. of the coveted trophy I have put up in my offer.

[img]"http://www.hunt101.com/?p=83729&c=500&z=1"[image/]

Enjoy



Darkside

Ugh...this thread is taking some twisted turns.
However, Dan....why is it so important to point out your wealth and put down another person's salary? Does that make you feel good?
I'd rather make 35000 a year and have a home and family and be in good surroundings than have more money than i know what to do with and have no friends, be a jackass, etc...

Proverbs 17:1 "Better a dry crust with peace and quiet than a house full of feasting, with strife."

At times, you seem very immature, Dannyboy.

The difference? Why, DFC's brown bear was at least a 10 footer, while a grizzly would have been only 8 foot. He doesn't know the difference, because he ain't never seen one.

The grizzly is a subspecies of brown bear.

Brown bear = Ursus arctos
Grizzly = Ursus arctos horribilis
Kodiak Bear = Ursus arctos middendorffi

Subspecies differ morphologically (form) from one another.

When someone tells me something, I fully expect them to fulfill what they stated. Am I asking too much to expect pacnor to publish the plugged bore rifle test? You know, the one using a case full of pistol powder and a 180 grain lead bullet driven into the bore, followed by firing a 150 grain jacketed bullet in 30-06 caliber. Pictures showing the slightly bulged barrel would be nice about now. What are the groupies to think when their leader doesn't sh:t or get off the pot, so to speak.

"Re: Pac-Nor Barrels Drawing Criticisms!! [Re: Westman]
#223935 - 12/23/03 04:48 PM Edit Reply Quote

partial quote

" We will keep you posted when we start the "pluged bore"project. Chris @ Pacnor "

As much as I disagree with some of what you post, Dan, I also would like to see that sort of testing. What a blast that would be.

I can think of nothing more indicative of a low class background than bragging about money. Those who actually have any significant wealth seldom do, unless they are both terribly insecure and poorly brought up.

JOG, interesting. I looked up one source that says Ursus horribilis for both brown and grizzly and doesn't differentiate Kodiak bears.

I just checked another that listed both Brown bear and Grizzly as Ursus arctos horribilis, but Kodiak bears as Ursus arctos middendorffi. "Kodiak" bears include bears on Kodiak, Afognak and Shuyak islands.

Cool, you learn stuff every day. I hadn't realized that the Kodiak versions were a different subspecies. I'm sure that Sitka Deer had pointed that out to me this spring when I was with him on Kodiak, but only so much can stick (grin).

Regardless, brown and grizzly are of the same species and while "grizzly" wouldn't be how I'd describe Dan's bear either, it didn't warrant the childish response that he gave.

Hmmmm, notice the sly change of subject????

That's just what I thought, when that POS first brought up the fact he wanted to bet $100,000.00, and he was contemplating using money he had borrowed for another project to cover the bet. It was his considered opinion, the bet was so high in numbers, no one would dare call him on it. Guess what happened.


Dan

You backed out? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for pointing that out to me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"DFC, I'm sure you must be bright enough to realize that taxonomically speaking both brown bear and grizzly bear are the same genetic creature, Ursus horribilis?"


Dan

Do you work for Coors? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



Dan





Danno

Another sly change here.....this is about you, Danno.

If I had the extra time and money I sure would like to spend a little of both on an island amongst them there middendorffis'!

There, I've posted on this thread! Now will someone please profile me so I will know what type of person I am! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Muley Stalker,

I didn�t mean to imply you were wrong because you�re not � browns and grizzlies are the same species. Lots of researchers shy away from using subspecies as a matter of pure science because it�s subjective as all get out. The common use of DNA testing nowadays is really messing up the ol� charts also.

JOG
"The common use of DNA testing nowadays is really messing up the ol� charts also."

And how!!! Read a piece a year or two ago about the "brown" bears on Admiralty Island (I think it was) and the DNA proof they were far more closely related to polar bears than other browns! One peek inside a polar bears mouth will provide instant insight into what they eat. EVERY tooth is designed for tearing meat... ain't no herbs in the arctic!

Seems the bears' teeth tipped them off and made them look.

Among taxonomists there are splitters and lumpers. Those seeking to use the endangered species act against developers fall squarely in the splitters' camp. Often does lots of collateral damage, for example the notion has gotten out that salmon are on ESL... well, some are and it is pretty ridiculous in most ways, but it has caused lots of problems with AK salmon marketing at a time with some of the largest salmon runs in recorded history.
art

JOG, I may have been. I don't mind folks pointing out that I'm wrong when I am, even though it hurts my fragile ego <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />. You forced me to drag out a couple books, which is a good thing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. The original one didn't list the "arctos" classification and (admitting a mistake) was thinking Ursus arctos was the polor bear. Now that I think about it, Sitka corrected me on that one this fall while I was hunting with him. It might actually stick this time (grin).

It is interesting how the introduction of genetics has thrown a wrench into the field of taxonomy. I love the info on the Admiralty bears...

Well, Mr. Stalker, seems your knowledge of bears is inexhaustible. How many of the different varieties / variations have you taken?

Dan

You're not answering..........

I've taken 4 different color phases of black bear, including one that is eligible for the awards book. Taken them over bait in Saskatchewan, spot and stalk in Alaska and even called one in in Colorado. That one was a hermaphrodite -- does that count as anything separate? I filmed a Kodiak brown bear being taken while only 24 yards from it. I still have a valid tag (valid for one more day <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) for a Alaskan brown bear (not the kodiak variety) because I chose to pass on a small but legal bear this fall.

So, while I've only "taken" one variety, I've at least seen and been within a 100 yards of grizzly, brown and kodiak varieties in addition to the hundreds of black bears I've seen. Certainly not enough experience to say my knowledge is inexhaustible, but enough to know you are full of crap!

So when are you going to address the questions regarding your bear? Which, BTW I believe I've stated multiple times is a beautiful bear and a hell of a trophy -- just NOT a 10 footer (if it is even yours).

Sitka Deer,

I suppose now we'll see the guide fees for bears taken on Admiralty Island sky-rocket! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Might be the closest a non-native can get to killing a polar bear. Except of course your one friends DLP killing.

This thread is about pacnor's super barrels, not about the bears I've killed. Just to clear the air a little. I have been to Alaska several times bear hunting. I've always used the services of a registered guides. Therefore, I'm not going to answer any questions about the bears I've killed. I will not post any pictures of the bears or say where they were taken. If I wanted you and the other ankle bitters to know who I am, I would just tell you. So for now lets just sling mud at each other and leave it at that.

I know how hard it is to get the bear you want, so in that department I can sympathize with you, better luck next time. But, that don't mean I like you!

Dan

Muley Stalker,

The bear you passed on was an Ursus arctos dalli <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

Speaking of DNA testing � it was originally thought the blacktail deer split off the whitetail a million or so years ago and then split off its own subspecies - your namesake mule deer. DNA evidence now suggests that the making of the mule deer involved whitetails and blacktails crossing back and forth.

Dang, too bad all this got hung up in this thread. We could start a new argument over the proper load for those cute lil� Odocoileus virginianus texanus, as opposed to a load for Minnesota�s big ol� Odocoileus virginianus borealis.

Sitka Deer,

Count me in as a "lumper". Imagine how dull Boone & Crockett would become with almost 40 entries for whitetail deer. Oops, typical and non-typical would amount to almost 80 entries...

Ugh...this thread is getting mighty old.
Dan, what is all this world record shooting talk about, anyway?

(Pure curiosity here, no malicious intent)

JOG,

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> -- good one!

I remember the Mule Deer/Blacktail/Whitetail info from Dr. Valerius Geist's book on Mule Deer. Which reminds me, it's been years since I've read it and I've been meaning to read it again. Good stuff ...

How much am I bid for a contribution to the NRA by whoever puts up the 1000th post?

Well, it worked on the .30-06 thread from hell...and that one was all about money, no biological discussions on the side. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

John

John, I think you already got $50 from me over that last thread (grin).

Ha ha hahaha. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Dan

whatever...

Ever what

"Re: Pac-Nor Barrels Drawing Criticisms!! [Re: Westman]
#223935 - 12/23/03 04:48 PM Edit Reply Quote

partial quote

" We will keep you posted when we start the "pluged bore"project. Chris @ Pacnor "


And another day passes in the ongoing saga of the missing report, or should I say the missing reporter. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Chris's comment about the "plugged bore" project seemed tongue n cheek to me.



BTW (By the Way), Why don't you leave Pacnor alone so they can finish building my rifle <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why are you waiting for that? You're just gonna rip it to shreds anyway. Like you'd believe anything that came out of PacNors shop.
You're just waiting for something to pick a fight about.

headspace
Just a quick explaination for you as you appear to fail to understand how this sort of thing works (profiling from ANY evidence) to help improve your performance. Though I must admit you get an A+ for creativity and humor. Let me use the analogy of a case of powder behind a bullet. When the combustion starts the powder burns in very predictable ways. With a large enough set of data points an expert could take pressure signs and work back to the particular powder that burned.

Some powders are called erratic, yet that only means factors that do not usually come into play do and affect the outcome. An expert would still be able to look at the same data and come to a reasonable conclusion. These erratic powders are typically affected by temperature more than most. That is a strating point.

With people, they respond in certain ways for every imagineable reason, and some you cannot begin to imagine. The simple fact is that people are almost as predictable as powder combustion in a case. Powder is made with combustion inhibitors, mechanical and chemical, to control the rate of burn. People are also built with combustion inhibitors; They are called manners. You will find some people that will swear in front of ladies and others that will avoid looking them in the eye. Those willing to swear openly start getting into the pistol powder manners. From there we look at a penchant for bragging. NO ONE could read what DFC posted and call the man humble. We look at obvious exaggerations (a firearms manufacturer, claiming to build full-auto, that made basic errors about gun law) and we start seeing someone crying out for attention, which is reinforced by every post. We see someone posting that he has shot World Record scores, yet will not identify himself (because he actually dreams one day his name will get posted and everyone will come running to him with apologies for doubting him because he is THAT DFC!) He is secretive mostly because he cannot let his whole truth out because there are too many unexplainable half-truths loose. We see language designed to placate and attract coupled with venom; It is called clique-building. Because we see repeated reference to sexual performance and prowess we KNOW there are issues there that DFC has struggled with. Because of the clique-building, self-centered, sexual dysfunction aspects of the poster there are certain positive things that we can say about the personal relationship at home. But the first unknown comes into play because we do not know whether this powder married a 22 Hornet (and they are already divorced) or a 308 (and they are struggling or divorced) or a 458Winchester Magnum (and she tolerates his temper and his shortcomings) or, a real possibility, he is closeted, married or otherwise. There is a very fine line there.

I hope this helps you understand a bit about the process and how it is started. The concept of studying the mind and attempting to clarify the whole soup in one post is a tough one. We stuck to results, but the options for causes are wider than the results and so far less specific and that is where the serious part of profiling comes in. Defining the personality is child's play compared to causation.

For a teaser, for you, as you seem to know who DFC actually is... You have but 9 posts as I recall and I have only read two that I can remember without looking back. You are making the sycophant sounds we might refer to as "toadyisms." Do you have some financial link that forces you to suck up? Do you honestly believe everything DFC has told you or posted? And in its entirety?

DFC
You have deluded yourself into believing you "won" the bet and the other guy backed out. While no one got missed in the dung flinging, some only got it on their boots. There is no question you refuse to accept that and you will hang on the few posting in your defense... Accepting the problem is the first step.
maytag

To summarize maytag's post:

DFC most likely has a little pecker, that only works from time to time.

DFC might/might not seek the pleasure of another man.

Did I miss anything? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

And here I was set on giving up on this thread because I thought it was getting boring. How wrong I was!

Digital Danno, stay around awhile- the entertainment value just keeps getting better and better!- Sheister

Put up or shut up!

"NO ONE could read what DFC posted and call the man humble. We look at obvious exaggerations (a firearms manufacturer, claiming to build full-auto, that made basic errors about gun law) and we start seeing someone crying out for attention, which is reinforced by every post. We see someone posting that he has shot World Record scores, yet will not identify himself (because he actually dreams one day his name will get posted and everyone will come running to him with apologies for doubting him because he is THAT DFC!)"

Lets see you prove some of the bullsh:t you're peddling.

Here are some statements for you to ponder on.
I have shot world records.
I have an 07 license (current) "Manufacturers"
I have a class 2 NFA (current) "machine gun &"
I'm not in the firearms field for the money, its a hobby.
You are right about 1 thing in your whole post. I'm not humble. Why should a man be humble? Is that some [bleep] thing with you profilers? Or just some [bleep] thing with you?
There is no such thing as "that DFC"
The day this crowd finds out who I am, I'm out of here permanently.

And I will prove anything I ever said about myself, anytime you put enough money to make it worth my while. I really don't give a damn what you or anyone like you thinks. I made it in this world the hard way, by working, something "profilers" know nothing about. You are probably the profiler that said the DC sniper was a white supremacist. I would like to meet you face to face. You are undoubtedly the worst profiler in the world. You are undoubtedly the worst profiler in the world. You are undoubtedly the worst profiler in the world. You are undoubtedly the worst profiler in the world. Do I make myself clear?

Dan

maytag,
It's obvious that by "That DFC" response you just recieved, you are correct in your profile. Interesting.

He has been pulling this stunt off on other forums for the past few years. Same lines, same attitude, its amazing he never tires of it.

You are so pathetic Dannyboy. It never ceases to amuse me little guy.

You forgot to add that you're a Grandmaster gunsmith, a barrelmaker, and a trophy-bear-getter.
Didn't you have your "profiler-employee" run a profile on IIFD???

That is an absolute lie

Dan

Danno,

You still beating this rotting horse ?

You been eating any of that mad-cow burger ?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I think that our resident profilers could get a masters (maybe a Phd) thessis on you !!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Happy New Year dude ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Tony.

Happy New Year to you!!

Dan

Posted by DFC:





If this is true why do you keep telling us things like the following:







For someone who doesn't care what we think you always find a way to work you vast shooting experience and your great personal wealth into most of your posts. Why even mention these things?

I would think, if I were a shrink, you are being baited. But, because I'm not a shrink (thank God for small favors) I have to say, I'm bragging. My mother says, I'm just proving to the world I have a superiority complex. My wife says its her fault (grin), because she don't give me enough ( fill in the blank), and I agree.



Dan

Happy New Year.

This is my last post on this thread.
But, not the site. Ha ha.

Dan

It may just be me, but everytime DFC posts I get flashbacks of this guy. Dang you Big Stick!

Danno Rocks

Its the absolute truth.

DFC
Just a quick final few thoughts for you. I read here that you had a profile run on the gent in the bet thread. I somehow missed that when I read the thread. That was the best laugh I have had in a very long time. It also explains why you keep suggesting I make 35k a year. You do not get much of a profiler on that kind of money, maybe a highschool drop-out with a secret decoder ring. But, since you seemed to want to post that obviously fabricated piece, we will assume you actually have a profiler on staff.

Here is a piece of advice, fire him! To call the other gent all the things you did show that either you have a loser on staff or you changed the report. If you changed the report you should fire yourself.

In point of fact, IIFID seems to have and be everything you lack. While he has an ego he also seems to have the goods, the class and intellect to back it up. Some things you have proven to be sorely lacking in.
maytag; over and out

Bump for someone...

Troublemaker... . I started reading this whole damn thing before I realized it was (a) five years old and (b) lame as Custer's studhorse.

Thought I was gonna learn me something about barrels... .

DN

Yeh, I got sucked in too!!! Right up to the point where I saw Stick's first post.

So how is Pac-nor doing these days??

Good times.....

Very good times..

"Yeh, I got sucked in too!!! Right up to the point where I saw Stick's first post."

+1.

Whatever happened to Matthias?

Dave.

Thanks Dave.....I got suckered in, as well!

Jeff